Double Decker wreck.59 draught horses.IL.

[vpstevens]

Tonight, A cattle truck carrying 59 horses ran a red light on Hwy 41 at Wadsworth Road (In Illinois near the Wisconsin Boader). The trailer flipped over and that is where my nightmares begin. I arrived before any horses had actually been removed from the trailer and immediately got in line to help assist the fallen equines. Almost all were dragged from the trailer on their side and soaked in sweat/blood and in total shock. Volunteers brought blankets, halters and leads so equipment was on hand but nothing prepared us for how the horses came out. Even sadder was the fact that almost all appear to be young yearling draft horse crosses that had barely started their life and now were going to a place to end it.

I will spear all the details but can tell you that there were many faces that I recognized and knew along with 5 vets covered in sweat doing everything possible to help these equines. I can also tell you that I lost count of the number of dead but I estimate it at around 15 and the remaining were sent to a local horse dealers farm as a place for shelter, food and water. I stood with firemen that guarded one of the last horses to stand and were not willing to let the vets put it to sleep. They picked it up, held it up and it was the last horses that I happily unloaded at Farms for the evening.

Here is the best part. The person that owns the farm and his wife are at Congress and do not know that they now host some 40+ young, badly battered equines at their farm. Hopefully their son-in-law will still be in good graces when they return home:-)

I have never experienced something as tragic as this and hope to never again. Please contact the Hooved Human Society in Illinois and ask them to step in and protect these poor horses so they cannot be reclaimed and reshipped for their original destination. I beg you please, help! You can email them at: info@hahs.org and ask they to step in and prevent any additional harm to these animals!

[Kachina]

What an awful story VP. Sounds like there is a wonderful group of people there and I hope you, your comrads in tragedy and the remaining youngsters are doing as well as can be expected today.

[Daydream Believer]

Oh no. Not another awful cattle truck accident with horses crammed in there. Are there any news links?

[Lori T]

This just makes me sick. Obviously last years tragedy did not teach anyone a thing. What a pity. Please keep us posted, our rescue is available to help if needed.

[RainyDayRide]

news link .. http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=66005

Horses killed in crash
Truck carrying 59 animals flips near Wadsworth
By Russell Lissau | Daily Herald Staff
Contact writer (http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=66005#)

Published: 10/28/2007 9:34 AM

A semitrailer truck hauling 59 horses collided with another vehicle and flipped onto its side Saturday night near Wadsworth, police said, injuring and killing many of the animals inside.

"We've got a lot of dead horses," Lake County sheriff's police Sgt. Curt Gregory said.

Rescue efforts were difficult because the crash left the doors leading to the horses inaccessible, Gregory said. Authorities were working late Saturday night to cut the trailer open, a time-consuming process, police said.
Additionally, rescuers were struggling to remove the injured horses because many dead horses were on top of them, police said.

The accident happened shortly before 7 p.m. as the truck was headed to the Minneapolis area from Indiana, Gregory said. It was carrying young Belgian draft horses.

The semitrailer was traveling north on Route 41 when it was struck by a pickup truck headed west on Wadsworth Road, Gregory said.
One of the vehicles ran a red light, but authorities were not immediately sure which driver was at fault, Gregory said.

The semitrailer driver lost control of his vehicle after the crash, police said. It jumped the median and then flipped onto its right side, blocking northbound and southbound traffic on Route 41.

Area horse and stable owners were called in by firefighters to help remove the animals from the scene in their own trailers, police said. It was not immediately known how many horses were hurt or killed.

The pickup driver was taken to an area hospital by an ambulance, police said. No one else was hurt.

Firefighters from the Newport Township Fire Protection District were on the scene, but officials with the department could not be reached for comment Saturday night.

No other details were available Saturday night as police continued investigating the crash and crews worked to remove the horses.

There are photos of the truck - after righting, with the top cut open - at
http://forums.delphiforums.com/alexbrown/messages?msg=16294.25

[RainyDayRide]

Additional news links...

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=local&id=5730115

http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/10850456.html

[Bluey]

You may want to specify more in your post.
I thought you were trying to start another slaughter discussion here.:rolleyes:

The same happened on the highway by us many years ago, where a load of standarbred race horses overturned.

Some horses died right then, others had to be cut out of the wreckage and were severely injured and others were lucky and had superficial injuries.

We cared for some of those horses for months, before they were sound enough again for travel.
Those were extremely sweet horses to tend to.

Accidents are terrible, no matter where or how they happen.

Good luck to all that made it in this wreck.

[vpstevens]

The update is this:

All 44 surviving horses are being held at a farm in Wadsworth, Illinois. The young stock are PMU horses that were sent to an Amish auction in Indiana and were no sales. They were loaded on one of four cattle trucks heading for the large breed auction in Minnesota.

The insurance agency has already visited the farm and is sending a truck to pickup these poor horses early in the week. They must be stopped.

I spoke with the Hooved Humane Society in Illinois and they do have room for these horses so we must find a way for them to take custody of them.

I saw the horses at 10AM this morning and all 44 were standing and two local vets have been out already this AM to help treat the injured. They are being held in a facility that is very caring and are receiving the best of care.

[vpstevens]

The newspaper articles are understated. There were 15 horses killed or put down at the scene and 44 are in being cared for at a local farm.

[fernie fox]

How could they possibley get 59 draught horses in a double decker.:mad:

Normally I hear about these atrocities here on COTH.

I have received e-mails today about this wreck,apparently 9-12 horses killed.

Anyone know the facts on this story.

I stupidly thought double deckers were banned from carrying 2 levels of horses on them.:eek:

[caffeinated]

I stupidly thought double deckers were banned from carrying 2 levels of horses on them.:eek:

It's been pointed out many, many times here that the law banning double deckers for horse transport only specifically banned them from transporting horses directly to slaughter. It's still legal to use them to ship horses to sales (as in this case) and other purposes.

Maybe all the folks pointing this out were on everyone's ignore lists.

[vpstevens]

See my posting under horse case - Slaughter.

I was there. 15 horses were killed/put down. They were all young stock. It was aweful and yet, this was one of 4 trailers.

Lori Stevens

[Bluey]

---"The insurance agency has already visited the farm and is sending a truck to pickup these poor horses early in the week. They must be stopped."---

WHY would you want to stop anyone from retrieving their own horses? :eek: :confused:

[Bluey]

See my posting under horse case - Slaughter.

I was there. 15 horses were killed/put down. They were all young stock. It was aweful and yet, this was one of 4 trailers.

Lori Stevens

I understand that you are very upset.
It is tragic to be at the scene of an accident, especially one involving so many horses killed.

Still, that is no reason to try to flood forums with animal right agenda thrown it there, like "saving" the horses from the insurance, etc. in the name of relating the news.:rolleyes:

I hope those alive will be ok.:(

[Luckydonkey]

OP- it is obvious how slanted you are on the slaughter issue by the way you chose to post this. Please be sure next time you post something to post the facts as they are printed, not as you choose to see them. The article stated that neither driver had been sighted for being at fault yet on this, although they were sure one of them had ran a red light. You posted it was the cattle truck that ran the redlight, and that is not a fact at this time. Also- why on earth would you stop some one from picking up their own horses? Horrible accidents happen every day, not just with people hauling horses to a sale in a double decker trailer- which is legal to do for this particular purpose.

[deltawave]

These thinly-veiled anti slaughter posts do very little to change the minds of those of us who are ambivalent on the topic, but they DO escalate the level of irritation and undermine the credibility of the anti-slaughter "lobby".

I also don't understand why an insurance company that is doing its job on behalf of its policy holders "must be stopped". :confused:

[LarkspurCO]

neither driver had been sighted

I think you mean "cited." I doubt either of the drivers was actually blind (i.e. not "sighted"), though it makes you wonder...


Poor babies.:(

[Daydream Believer]

That is a double decker isn't it? The pics are pretty fuzzy but it looks like a two level rig. I can't help but think that a rig like that must be very top heavy especially with horses that are taller than cattle or pigs crammed in there. As often as they seem to wreck you'd think someone would wise up.

People wonder where some of the glut of horses is coming from in the US...well here is one source...4 truckloads of PMU draft babies that are byproducts of the pharmaceutical industry being hauled in and sold in auctions here in the US. I wonder if those babies came in from Canada.

I have to give their owners at least some credit for attempting to sell them to someone before just shipping them straight to slaughter. I know of large ranches who do exactly that with young stock.

[LessonLearned]

And, of course you have no agenda here, do you Bluey? :rolleyes:

[Luckydonkey]

I think you mean "cited." I doubt either of the drivers was actually blind (i.e. not "sighted"), though it makes you wonder...


Poor babies.:(

Yep- that is exactly what i meant....:)

[Bluey]

---"As often as they seem to wreck you'd think someone would wise up."---

Where do you get any figures to back that up?
Millions of cattle are transported in them around here, with the very rare wreck every few years, that then makes the news.

Other trucks have wrecks weekly around here, stopping the highway regularly, rarely all those make the news any more.

[Luckydonkey]

That is a double decker isn't it? The pics are pretty fuzzy but it looks like a two level rig. I can't help but think that a rig like that must be very top heavy especially with horses that are taller than cattle or pigs crammed in there. As often as they seem to wreck you'd think someone would wise up.

People wonder where some of the glut of horses is coming from in the US...well here is one source...4 truckloads of PMU draft babies that are byproducts of the pharmaceutical industry being hauled in and sold in auctions here in the US. I wonder if those babies came in from Canada.

I have to give their owners at least some credit for attempting to sell them to someone before just shipping them straight to slaughter. I know of large ranches who do exactly that with young stock.
I agree with you on this adding to our horse glut in the USA,I clicked on a link to an add for a "quality horse auction with no meat buyers" near me this weekend- and almost all of the horses for sale were pmu draft crosses from a ranch in Canada. And all were weanlings and yearlings....not a huge market for them in the PNW, especially when reg. ranch broke horses are selling for a few hundred bucks....

[Renae]

---"The insurance agency has already visited the farm and is sending a truck to pickup these poor horses early in the week. They must be stopped."---

WHY would you want to stop anyone from retrieving their own horses? :eek: :confused:

I agree. Also if these horses had been no saled at an auction in Illinois and were being shipped to Minnesota to be put through another sale sounds like the owner was trying to get better than "slaughter" prices for them. If the owner was just selling them for "slaughter" and they are foals from a Canadian PMU farm why wouldn't they have just been sold at a sale in Canada instead of being trucked to Illinois and then some of them no-saled and put on a truck for Minnesota? After all the Canadian dollar is stronger than the American one right now and there slaughter plants, as far as I know, are open for business, not opening and closing every other weeks on court whims.

[luvmytbs]

Regardless of where these horses were going, they should receive medical attention as they did. The incident should be investigated from all aspects including violations (weight of vehicle, driver's log etc).
And I would think, the horses would be considered "evidence" at this time?

[carosello]

Associated Press - October 28, 2007 9:14 AM ET

WADSWORTH, Ill. (AP) - Lake County Sheriff's police say they are investigating the cause of a truck accident yesterday evening that killed nine Belgian draft horses in the village of Wadsworth.

Police say a semi trailer carrying 59 of the large horses collided at an intersection with a pickup driven by 67-year-old Larry Hanlin of Libertyville.

The driver of the semi, 34-year-old James Anderson of McLeod, North Dakota, lost control of his vehicle, which rolled over. Authorities say neither driver suffered life-threatening injuries.

Local fire departments and rescue services rushed to the scene, and spent five hours extricating the horses. Sheriff's deputies say 50 of the horses were saved.

Authorities say they believe the horses were being transported from Indiana to Minnesota.

[vpstevens]

OP- it is obvious how slanted you are on the slaughter issue by the way you chose to post this. Please be sure next time you post something to post the facts as they are printed, not as you choose to see them. The article stated that neither driver had been sighted for being at fault yet on this, although they were sure one of them had ran a red light. You posted it was the cattle truck that ran the redlight, and that is not a fact at this time. Also- why on earth would you stop some one from picking up their own horses? Horrible accidents happen every day, not just with people hauling horses to a sale in a double decker trailer- which is legal to do for this particular purpose.

It is really interesting to see how many people are willing to judge my intent and at the same time lecture me for sharing my perspective yet will share their own conflicting views. If you don’t like my forum, stay off of it. I have the right to share my view, feelings and experiences so don’t tell me I can’t!
Second, let me tell you that the press on this accident is limited and does not represent the whole picture. You tell me to get my facts right yet you believe what you read in the papers. The papers say that nine horses die yet there were only 44 horses unloaded at the farm and there were 59 on the trailer. Do the math! The press was not inside the gates and that is why the facts are limited as are the photos. I worked hand-in-hand with the staff on the scene and everyone said the truck ran the red light and that the driver of the pickup was rushed in serious condition to the hospital. Can I confirm this? No, I can’t but it is what was reported on the scene.
Lastly, if a parent is inhumane to their child, the child does not just get handed back over to the parent. The same should hold true with these horses. Almost all of the surviving horses were badly hurt. Most were in shock and down for close to 3 hours. If they are allowed to be picked up again and brought to sale, chances of them going anywhere but kill is unrealistic. I am very neutral on the slaughter issue but I do believe in humane treatment and humane transportation for all equines. Can you imagine 59 horses that averaged 800+ pounds being put in a double decker cattle trailer? It was not humane transportation. If you think it is, maybe get in the next trailer with the horses and enjoy the ride! No halters on a single one of them either.
I don’t fault the driver for making a mistake (if he did so) but I do fault the way these animals were transported and the thought that they will be quickly loaded in far worse condition for the same type of inhumane transportation. It is however illegal to take a horse through the state of Illinois without a current coggins and a health certificate from a vet that is within 30 days and clearly shows the starting and ending point of the trip.

I am told that there are laws about transporting horses through Illinois intended to go to Canada for kill. If this were the case, there would be no truth stated about were these horses were headed by the driver or owner of the equines.

You might think twice about being a horse owner if you think it is acceptable to handle horses in this manner. I cannot judge you nor do I wish to since I am not god. I will not fault your views but tell you that we agree to disagree.

[vpstevens]

I understand that you are very upset.
It is tragic to be at the scene of an accident, especially one involving so many horses killed.

Still, that is no reason to try to flood forums with animal right agenda thrown it there, like "saving" the horses from the insurance, etc. in the name of relating the news.:rolleyes:

I hope those alive will be ok.:(

It is really interesting to see how many people are willing to judge my intent and at the same time lecture me for sharing my perspective yet will share their own conflicting views. If you don’t like my forum, stay off of it. I have the right to share my view, feelings and experiences so don’t tell me I can’t!
Second, let me tell you that the press on this accident is limited and does not represent the whole picture. You tell me to get my facts right yet you believe what you read in the papers. The papers say that nine horses die yet there were only 44 horses unloaded at the farm and there were 59 on the trailer. Do the math! The press was not inside the gates and that is why the facts are limited as are the photos. I worked hand-in-hand with the staff on the scene and everyone said the truck ran the red light and that the driver of the pickup was rushed in serious condition to the hospital. Can I confirm this? No, I can’t but it is what was reported on the scene.
Lastly, if a parent is inhumane to their child, the child does not just get handed back over to the parent. The same should hold true with these horses. Almost all of the surviving horses were badly hurt. Most were in shock and down for close to 3 hours. If they are allowed to be picked up again and brought to sale, chances of them going anywhere but kill is unrealistic. I am very neutral on the slaughter issue but I do believe in humane treatment and humane transportation for all equines. Can you imagine 59 horses that averaged 800+ pounds being put in a double decker cattle trailer? It was not humane transportation. If you think it is, maybe get in the next trailer with the horses and enjoy the ride! No halters on a single one of them either.
I don’t fault the driver for making a mistake (if he did so) but I do fault the way these animals were transported and the thought that they will be quickly loaded in far worse condition for the same type of inhumane transportation. It is however illegal to take a horse through the state of Illinois without a current coggins and a health certificate from a vet that is within 30 days and clearly shows the starting and ending point of the trip.
You might think twice about being a horse owner if you think it is acceptable to handle horses in this manner. I cannot judge you nor do I wish to since I am not god. I will not fault your views but tell you that we agree to disagree.

[Bluey]

And, of course you have no agenda here, do you Bluey? :rolleyes:


Exactly, I don't have any whatsoever, not any reason other than maybe not liking animal rights fanatics, that try to make a case for their propaganda out of every opportunity that presents itself, as is obvious here.

[Dalfan]

that try to make a case for their propaganda out of every opportunity that presents itself, as is obvious here.

Uh..I believe that's your modus operandi, Bluey. Sure as the sun will rise, I can guarantee that any thread with a hint of slaughter, you will be on it spewing the pro-slaughter agenda,statistics,etc,etc,etc.

[mbd]

*

[Bluey]

Uh..I believe that's your modus operandi, Bluey. Sure as the sun will rise, I can guarantee that any thread with a hint of slaughter, you will be on it spewing the pro-slaughter agenda,statistics,etc,etc,etc.

Yes, we are predictable critters, aren't we.:cool:
I can also guarantee who will come along and pick on every word of mine.;)

I sure wish this had been reported as a sad accident, then the particulars and later blame adjucated where due.

NOT start with blame, then fuzzy facts.

Accidents happen and there are much to account for in there, but to come with "slaughter!" as the title?:confused:

[mbd]

I am very neutral on the slaughter issue .

Then why did you title this thread "Slaughter" when you knew, as shown by your posts, these horses were not headed to slaughter?

Like I said over in Off Course, please don't cause trouble just to watch the train wreck.

This was a horrible accident, regardless of how the facts turn out. But it doesn't have anything to do with the slaughter issue.

Erin's probably going to shut down most of these threads anyway. She doesn't have much tolerance for rabble rousing or multiple postings on the same subject.

[RainyDayRide]

I wonder what it will take to ban the use of double-deckers for any equine transport. Hard to imagine 59 young draft horses crammed into a DD.

[ptownevt]

I understand that you are very upset.
It is tragic to be at the scene of an accident, especially one involving so many horses killed.

Still, that is no reason to try to flood forums with animal right agenda thrown it there, like "saving" the horses from the insurance, etc. in the name of relating the news.:rolleyes:

I hope those alive will be ok.:(

I've read every post on this thread. I don't see how any of these posts alone or all of them together constitute "flood(ing) forums with animal right agenda..." If you are referring to another thread, post there. Posting on this thread without a single post here that justifies the comment just demonstrates your agenda.

[RainyDayRide]

Accidents happen and there are much to account for in there, but to come with "slaughter!" as the title?:confused:

hmmm.. the title of this thread is Double Decker wreck.59 draught horses.IL. If you guys want to argue over inappropriate thread titles, how about doing it in the misnamed thread(s)?

[Dalfan]

I think Bluey jumped the gun in anticipation of this turning into a slaughter thread. I mean, who else would be transporting 59 horses on a DD truck?? Bluey??

[MistyBlue]

I think Bluey was referring to the fact that there are three threads started on two forums on the same subject. One of the threads started with this subject is entitled "Slaughter." I think Bluey is just responding to the nearest duplicate thread.

Are people still calling those who opposed the slaughter ban as it was written as "pro-slaughter?" Huh...odd. As we can see...the ban went over like a fart in church for the horses. :no:

According to the news reports and what the OP has stated...the 59 horses being transported in a DD trailer were no-saled at one auction and on thier way to another one. I would hazard a guess that no saleing the horses had a lot to do with not selling them to the meat person and going to another auction hoping for better prices/non-meat prices. because meat prices are pretty low right now...costs more to ship them out of the country. Not that that's slowed them down a whole lot, but the meat buyers aren't willing to burn profits by buying at previous meat prices when the commute is so much longer now.

[Daydream Believer]

---"As often as they seem to wreck you'd think someone would wise up."---

Where do you get any figures to back that up?
Millions of cattle are transported in them around here, with the very rare wreck every few years, that then makes the news.
.

Don't be obtuse. I was referring to how many wreck with horses in them which is a lot less common than cattle to be hauled in them. Think about it for a minute. They were NOT designed for horses who are much taller and have a higher center of gravity. I know of at least three major wrecks with horses in the last couple of years...Ramey's "riding" horses, the ones headed for Cavel not long ago and now these...and by your own admission, wrecks with cattle are rare. Maybe that is because cattle were meant to be hauled in them and horses aren't?

[Bluey]

Don't be obtuse. I was referring to how many wreck with horses in them which is a lot less common than cattle to be hauled in them. Think about it for a minute. They were NOT designed for horses who are much taller and have a higher center of gravity. I know of at least three major wrecks with horses in the last couple of years...Ramey's "riding" horses, the ones headed for Cavel not long ago and now these...and by your own admission, wrecks with cattle are rare. Maybe that is because cattle were meant to be hauled in them and horses aren't?

That is called guessing, not figures.:yes:

Yearlings, even draft ones, are not larger than 1400# cattle, or 2000# bulls, that also travel fine in those trucks.

You may not know what size cattle are. Many are as large as horses.
Many dude ranches transport their strings to winter pastures in DD, the BLM has transported them to adoption centers, etc. and those horses, some rather large ones included, travel fine in there.

[Daydream Believer]

Bluey,

I'm not guessing. There have been three major wrecks with horses in the last two years. How many with cattle and how many MORE cattle are hauled in them...way way more. I'd not call that a rare accident when it happens that frequently. I'm sure though you think it's perfectly appropriate to haul horses in them from the way you are defending it.

[Bluey]

Bluey,

I'm not guessing. There have been three major wrecks with horses in the last two years. How many with cattle and how many MORE cattle are hauled in them...way way more. I'd not call that a rare accident when it happens that frequently. I'm sure though you think it's perfectly appropriate to haul horses in them from the way you are defending it.

You are again guessing, don't really knokw how many horses are hauled on DD and what percentage of those wrecked.

Remember, every time YOU get in a car you are apt to be one statistic also, since many people get in wrecks just driving to the corner store.

What I wonder and will be investigated, I am sure, is if he was overloaded, which is a DOT offense anyway.

[Renae]

hmmm.. the title of this thread is Double Decker wreck.59 draught horses.IL. If you guys want to argue over inappropriate thread titles, how about doing it in the misnamed thread(s)?

Actually the OP originally title the thread SLAUGHTER and put it in the horse care section of the forum, and then poste this second thread here with this title. The moderators consolidated the two threads. (the OP also posted the same subject a third time http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=119774 telling everyone to go to the Slaughter thread, even though she has no proof these horses were going to slaughter from the little info here they were going to an auction, from which they can go whereever their new owners choose to take them)

[ESG]

What a horrible shame. vpstevens, kudos to you for stepping up to help, when help was needed.

I do, however, think you're overstepping your bounds, when calling for help in stopping the insurance companies from picking up and resuming responsibility for these horses. Sorry, but helping out in an emergency situation does not give you either the right or the authority to dictate what happens to the survivors of that emergency.

And it's irresponsible of you to imply that these horses were slaughter bound, when you don't know that. If you've personally investigated and can prove that the sale to which these horses were being shipped is a meat sale, great - then you can start screaming about slaughter, which you know full well will end in the obligatory trainwreck of your thread(s). If you want kudos for helping to save some horses, you have it. If you want to share news of a tragic accident with the rest of us, you have. Please leave it at that, if you want to retain some shred of credibility and admiration from the rest of us.

[county]

What does this accident have to do with slaughter? The title has me wondering about the whole deal, sounds to me like its a bad accident same as it would be with any species of livestock but it has nothing to do with slaughter at all that I can see nor where the horses being transported in an illegal manner at all.

[vpstevens]

Then why did you title this thread "Slaughter" when you knew, as shown by your posts, these horses were not headed to slaughter?



I was probably very upset when I started the tread (under a heading of slaughter) as anyone that saw these animals being dragged out of a flipped semi would be. As someone else mentioned, where else really would these horses be going? I have googled all day trying to find an Auction in MN today for PMU babies and have not found a single one. Hmmmmm:confused:

To clarify my intent: 1st and foremost, to try to help these injured animals find people to come and rescue them. Second, to state that I am opposed to the transportation of horses (whether going to slaughter,auction or elsewhere) that is inhuman to the animal. I only saw the trailer on its side with horses laying on top of horses but tilt this trailer back upright, and I don't believe there was comfortable traveling space for these animals to stand nor be kepted from getting chilled with the layout of the trailer design. Clearly both levels where very low for headroom.

If you were going to a sale to purchase a young horse, would you even consider one that was unloaded from such a vehicle? I would immediately be thinking stangles or other illnesses from such a trailer which smelled like pig feases. It was also 37 degrees last night. Calculate the wind chill factor with a trailer going 60 MPH and just 37 degrees outside.

If slaugher must continue, we must try to find humane ways of transport and of humane methods for terminating the life of these equines. If you would not let your own horse be transported in this manner, why accept other equines traveling in these conditions.

I will not comment any longer on this issue, my primary focus must be to find help in locating suitable homes for these young, injuried equines and not waste time debating the issue.

[RainyDayRide]

Actually the OP originally title the thread SLAUGHTER and put it in the horse care section of the forum, and then poste this second thread here with this title. The moderators consolidated the two threads. (the OP also posted the same subject a third time http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=119774 telling everyone to go to the Slaughter thread, even though she has no proof these horses were going to slaughter from the little info here they were going to an auction, from which they can go whereever their new owners choose to take them)

actually, the original thread on this now consolidated thread was

http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=2765278&postcount=10

different poster - and did NOT have "slaughter" as the title.

My concern is that DDs not be used for transport of horses heading ANYWHERE. A few states have laws banning their use - wish more states would pass similar legislation.

[Renae]

actually, the original thread on this now consolidated thread was

http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=2765278&postcount=10

different poster - and did NOT have "slaughter" as the title.

My concern is that DDs not be used for transport of horses heading ANYWHERE. A few states have laws banning their use - wish more states would pass similar legislation.

vpstevens orignal thread was title SLAUGHTER in the Horse Care section http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=71

[horseandhound]

It's been pointed out many, many times here that the law banning double deckers for horse transport only specifically banned them from transporting horses directly to slaughter. It's still legal to use them to ship horses to sales (as in this case) and other purposes.

Maybe all the folks pointing this out were on everyone's ignore lists.

Which states does that apply to?????? Here in NY state the Dept of Ag & Mkts states and I quote "Transportation of 6 or more horses over a highway shall have no more than one tier"
PA also has the same law.

[RainyDayRide]

vpstevens orignal thread was title SLAUGHTER in the Horse Care section http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/forumdisplay.php?f=71

Yes, but THIS thread doesn't have - and never had - "Slaughter" as the title nor was it begun by the "slaughter" poster .. people started complaining about the other thread here sometime before the threads were consolidated - it made little sense to do that.

[Renae]

I have googled all day trying to find an Auction in MN today for PMU babies and have not found a single one.

There are several sales companies in Minnesota that run horse sales, weekly or monthly all breed sales and larger cataloged sales a few times a year. Most of them advertise in the local newspapers as they aren't really the kind of sales anyone flies in to see. I don't know if any of them run a specific "PMU baby sale" (IMO those sales are just sale gimmicks that get bleeding hearts to run and spend more money on average QHxDraft or WarmbloodxDraft colts than they are worth).

[Luckydonkey]

Here is a link to a local sale that they had this weekend near me http://www.5starequineauctions.com/home.html click on the online auction and you will see that almost all the horses consigned are PMU babies from a canada pmu farm. I was not able to go, so have no idea what these foals sold for... I can tell you I went to this sale 2 years ago and purhcased a drop dead gorgeous, double reg NSH broke gelding for $150. So i doubt these babies sold for much. Anyway, my point is that they do consign pmu foals to sales in the usa... Also a couple years ago at a catalog ranch horse sale we had here there were a bunch of really nice AQHA mares,foals, yearlings and 2 year olds that were shipped here from wyoming to our sale and they came in on a double decker rig- all arrived just fine- and there were close to 50 horses on that rig, and most sold for around $500 to $1200 at that time... all pallys, duns, and buckskins... my point is not just crap horses and pmus get shipped that way, and alot of them arrive fine and dandy- it is jus tthe bad wrecks that happen that we here about...

[vpstevens]

Here is a link to photos taken by a friend on the scene. Humane? Judge for yourself. Look at the inside of the trailer!

http://www.bristolwisconsin.com/Horse%20semi-trailer%20Accident%20Photos.htm

[Renae]

Yes, but THIS thread doesn't have - and never had - "Slaughter" as the title nor was it begun by the "slaughter" poster .. people started complaining about the other thread here sometime before the threads were consolidated - it made little sense to do that.

Um, duh, but the moderators moved all the previous threads from the Salughter thread to this one. That is why some of the threads discussed the innapropriate name of the thread. :rolleyes: No they were not comapining about that title there until both threads were put together.

[horseandhound]

VPStevens...Those pictures are worth a thousand words. The internal pic of the trailer really speaks for itself. I used to transport farm stock in europe and can tell you even pigs had a hard time with the upper deck. I would hate to think of putting a horse on there especially youngsters who have probably never trailered before.

[Bluey]

Here is a link to photos taken by a friend on the scene. Humane? Judge for yourself. Look at the inside of the trailer!

http://www.bristolwisconsin.com/Horse%20semi-trailer%20Accident%20Photos.htm

You can't tell anything for those pictures, sorry.

Many yaers ago in one load of cattle from El Paso, 10 hours away, the cattle buyer put one of his horses in there, as a surprise gift and he was fine.
The BLM hauls their horses in DD's for years now and they do fine.
Dude ranches in the West haul their horses to winter pastures in them, some times sharing a light load with a neighbor's cattle, unloading the cattle at a sale barn and reloading the horses for the rest of the trip.
The horses just walk right back in there, don't hesitate, they don't seem to mind at all.

Just because those in the East are not used to those trucks, that doesn't make them bad.

The initial poster keeps calling it a pig truck. Wonder where she got that?
Here, pigs go in other kinds of trailers, not in cattle DD's, but maybe there they use them for both.:confused:

[horseandhound]

Bluey. It's common to haul pigs or cattle in a double decker especially a possum belly. Quite often they are referred to as hog trailers. I guess everybody's experience differs from state to state and country to country. I know as a professional driver I wouldn't have wanted to haul horses in a DD. When I transported polo ponies it was an 18 place trailer with a partition between each pony. Very secure and comfortable for all involved.

[philosoraptor]

Here is a link to photos taken by a friend on the scene. Humane? Judge for yourself. Look at the inside of the trailer!

http://www.bristolwisconsin.com/Horse%20semi-trailer%20Accident%20Photos.htm

Thanks for posting that link

What a horrible thing. This is more than just a roadway accident. It's a DD overloaded with 59(!) horses. This is the same kind of DD trailer designed for cattle, not horses. :eek: If they're no-sale PMU youngsters, it's even more sad because they're doomed for slaughter. What a sad tragic story.

[Renae]

Thanks for posting that link

What a horrible thing. This is more than just a roadway accident. It's a DD overloaded with 59(!) horses. This is the same kind of DD trailer designed for cattle, not horses. :eek: If they're no-sale PMU youngsters, it's even more sad because they're doomed for slaughter. What a sad tragic story.

How do you know they are doomed for slaughter? It is very common in the upper midwest "circuit" or horse sales for people to take no sales or dealers to buy the cheap ones and haul them to a different sale a state or two away and try again. The conclusions that some of you anti-slaughter people automatically jump to are ridiculous, always trying to spin it so the poor horses are destined for slaughter, but of course you hae no problem with slaughter done humanely (yeah right, that is just one of the anti-slaughter lines the far out fielders use to appeal the fence straddlers, it it is all the start of the slippery slop the real far outers would like to help us slide down to where we can't even own a goldfish because keeping them in a goldfish bowl is cruel and inhumane)

[Bluey]

Bluey. It's common to haul pigs or cattle in a double decker especially a possum belly. Quite often they are referred to as hog trailers. I guess everybody's experience differs from state to state and country to country. I know as a professional driver I wouldn't have wanted to haul horses in a DD. When I transported polo ponies it was an 18 place trailer with a partition between each pony. Very secure and comfortable for all involved.

Yes, when you haul performance, well trained horses.

When people here haul unhandled horses, like the BLM hauls the horses for adoption, or people haul their weanlings and yearlings, they haul them in groups.
Remember, they are not even approachable, much less haltered and do better in a group than fighting a single spot with a division they can try to climb over or slip under if they fall down.
Putting 18 unhandled yearling in that 18 slot trailer may have found them all over but where they started, some half way over the partitions, by the time you got where you were going.

[Bluey]

How do you know they are doomed for slaughter? It is very common in the upper midwest "circuit" or horse sales for people to take no sales or dealers to buy the cheap ones and haul them to a different sale a state or two away and try again.

Well, if you put "slaughter" and "pig trailer" there it evidently makes it more dramatic.
Who cares about the facts anyway.;)

---"it it is all the start of the slippery slop the real far outers would like to help us slide down to where we can't even own a goldfish because keeping them in a goldfish bowl is cruel and inhumane)"---

Watch it, you are going to earn a tin foil hat if you doubt that animal rights people only want good care for animals.:yes:
Guess that some have not read the small print of their clearly stated ultimate goals yet.:eek:

[RainyDayRide]

Um, duh, but the moderators moved all the previous threads from the Salughter thread to this one. That is why some of the threads discussed the innapropriate name of the thread. :rolleyes: No they were not comapining about that title there until both threads were put together.

My memory is that there were complaints here before the threads were combined - that is what triggered my original post.... since there is no way to disentangle them now, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[horseandhound]

It's been pointed out many, many times here that the law banning double deckers for horse transport only specifically banned them from transporting horses directly to slaughter. It's still legal to use them to ship horses to sales (as in this case) and other purposes.

Maybe all the folks pointing this out were on everyone's ignore lists.

Yes, when you haul performance, well trained horses.

When people here haul unhandled horses, like the BLM hauls the horses for adoption, or people haul their weanlings and yearlings, they haul them in groups.
Remember, they are not even approachable, much less haltered and do better in a group than fighting a single spot with a division they can try to climb over or slip under if they fall down.
Putting 18 unhandled yearling in that 18 slot trailer may have found them all over but where they started, some half way over the partitions, by the time you got where you were going.

I wasn't suggesting putting 18 unhandled yearlings in an 18 slot trailer but Thank You for your comments. As for youngsters being able to get half way over the partitions, not possible with the design of the trailer we used (Herringbone travel, solid partitions graduated from head down to rump, no chance of a hoof sliding under the partition). With your comments I would assume that you've never hauled large groups of an animal on a semi. Hauling steers is no different to hauling unbroke, unhandled horses. The double decker was not DESIGNED for horses. If you stood inside one you would see why. Horses in large groups should be on one level with dividing gates (and no, they can't jump over them). Even the most unhandled horse travels better on a trailer specifically designed with them in mind.

BTW...many of those PMU babies were haltered and led (according to the photos)?????

[Rancher]

I have been in double deckers many times. They are NOT high inside, maybe 6 feet max. Many many cowboys have to duck while walking inside them. I once had a yearling clydesdale delivered to me in one but he was kept in the very back in the 'dog house' where the roof is quite high. Also it was summer so no chance of him getting cold. There is no way on God's green earth that yearling of mine would have been able to ride in one of the levels of the trailer. Double deckers are NOT designed for horses. I don't understand why people continue to transport horses in them when clearly the horses can not lift their heads. Many would almost be scraping their withers on the top.

Double deckers + horses = me being sick

[gwenrowdy]

Maybe we should title this thread: "How fast can a double-decker driver get his arse out of town".

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-horse_weboct29,1,3813887.story

[RainyDayRide]

Looks like the original report that the semi driver ran the red light was accurate.

After crash .... (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-horse_weboct29,1,3813887.story?ctrack=2&cset=true)
...

Anderson's northbound tractor-trailer was struck by a pickup truck going west on Wadsworth Road, police said. Anderson lost control, and the tractor-trailer overturned, blocking north and south lanes.

[Lake County Sheriff's Police Sgt. Curtis] Gregory said Anderson was cited for failing to stop at a traffic light. He declined treatment and flew home to North Dakota, Gregory said. The driver of the pickup, Larry Hanlin, 67, of Libertyville, was treated for non-life-threatening injuries, Gregory said.

Illinois State Police safety inspectors are checking the tractor-trailer for violations, and Gregory said there may be charges related to how the horses were transported.

"They were just wedged in there," Gregory said.

[horseandhound]

I have been in double deckers many times. They are NOT high inside, maybe 6 feet max. Many many cowboys have to duck while walking inside them. I once had a yearling clydesdale delivered to me in one but he was kept in the very back in the 'dog house' where the roof is quite high. Also it was summer so no chance of him getting cold. There is no way on God's green earth that yearling of mine would have been able to ride in one of the levels of the trailer. Double deckers are NOT designed for horses. I don't understand why people continue to transport horses in them when clearly the horses can not lift their heads. Many would almost be scraping their withers on the top.

Double deckers + horses = me being sick

I agree wholeheartedly with you. Many people here post that this is the norm to transport horses on a double decker. Just because it's common practise doesn't make it right. Reality is the majority of "advocates" have never set foot in a double decker. I would love to see the folks that post it's O.K. to haul in them put their own horse in one and send them off across the country.

[Daydream Believer]

One point that I read that the OP said that I would like to clarify was that if these horses were bound for an auction across state lines...and we know they came from Indiana and were supposed hauled halfway across the country at this point from one sale to another....where are their health papers and coggins? I think one reason the OP suspected that they were slaughter bound is that ONLY slaughter horses may be hauled without coggins and health papers across state or national boundries...which apparently are lacking for these draft babies... To the OP, is that indeed a fact in this case?

[Liberty]

The BLM hauls their horses in DD's for years now and they do fine.


I was just discussing this with a friend of mine who has 3 BLM Mustangs (just picked up the 3rd one at the recent BLM adoption near here in Lorton, VA), and she told me this about BLM's horse hauling tractor trailers:

They're single level, not DDs, and are specially made for the BLM. She said they look like gigantic stock trailers, each outfitted with 5 swing gates so the horses can be divided by age and gender.

Concerning this horrible wreck with the Belgians, it looks pretty clear to me that the rig was overloaded. I can't imagine stuffing 59 horses in there. Most likely (IMO), that's the reason the driver was on that road - to avoid the scales and overloading the likely reason he wrecked. Also looks (to me anyway) that the trailer was not anywhere near sufficient for humane transport of horses. JMO.
:mad::(

[county]

59 head is not a huge load at all lots of loads of cattle are larger then that. As far as coggins and health papers I didn't see anywhere that said they didn't have any? Also didn't see any where that says these horses were hauled in any illegal manner if they were could someone point it out cause I missed it. Sounds to me like a bad accident which happens with vechicles be it cars all the way up to large trucks hauling many things including every species of livestock there is.

[Tiempo]

Too darned tired to get into controversy right now, just wanted to say what a horrible wreck, my heart aches for the dead,injured and traumatized horses.

[horseandhound]

Thanks Liberty for that clarification...single level and support gates. That says it all for me. No double decker with low head room, I beams, chequer plate slippy flooring, is suitable for horses...PERIOD.

[Alagirl]

One point that I read that the OP said that I would like to clarify was that if these horses were bound for an auction across state lines...and we know they came from Indiana and were supposed hauled halfway across the country at this point from one sale to another....where are their health papers and coggins? I think one reason the OP suspected that they were slaughter bound is that ONLY slaughter horses may be hauled without coggins and health papers across state or national boundries...which apparently are lacking for these draft babies... To the OP, is that indeed a fact in this case?


I don't see where you got the papers, missing or not, either way out of any of this?

[Rancher]

I agree wholeheartedly with you. Many people here post that this is the norm to transport horses on a double decker. Just because it's common practise doesn't make it right. Reality is the majority of "advocates" have never set foot in a double decker. I would love to see the folks that post it's O.K. to haul in them put their own horse in one and send them off across the country.

Yes, many people don't realize how high they are inside. I looked at them from a horses point of view and it just shouldn't be done. It would be different if they were higher (like 7+ feet) or had better footing. The animals are just standing on metal. Ya, there is ridges in the metal, but it provides no traction. Even cattle were slipping and falling. Also there is no drainage. So urine and manure just pile up. Can you imagine how slippery that would be? I have no problem with hauling a group of half wild horses in a large stock trailer provided they fit, they can lift their heads and they have proper footing. But slipping falling and banging their heads?? Umm no. If I ever get another chance I am going to video tape the inside of a double decker and show how high they are inside and what the footing is like. Oh, and those little round windows go right down to the floor. And they are the perfect size for a hoof to go through. We had a weanling calf fall and put his leg through. He snapped his leg in half. It was really really horrible and he was destroyed immediatly. Horses panic more than cattle, so how easy would it be for one of them to snap a leg? I bet it has happened before.

[Claddagh]

Too darned tired to get into controversy right now, just wanted to say what a horrible wreck, my heart aches for the dead,injured and traumatized horses.


I was just going to say the same thing!

A horrible tragedy any way you look at it. :cry:

[Liberty]

Regarding the cattle/pig truck debate, this was posted on the FOB board's discussion about this horrible wreck:

After crash, future of 46 horses in question
By Jeff Long | Tribune staff reporter
5:03 PM CDT, October 28, 2007

The fate of 46 horses that survived a weekend wreck in Lake County remained unclear Sunday as investigators looked into why 59 Belgian draft horses were being transported in a double-deck trailer made for cattle and pigs.

"Picture a narrow trailer, slippery as snot, a dangerous cavern filled with horses piled on top of each other, some of them kicking dangerously," said Colleen Fisch, the coordinator for horse enthusiasts in Wisconsin that helped with the rescue. "They were all in sections too small for horses. For the rescuers, it was extremely dangerous."

Firefighters and dozens of volunteers worked for more than five hours Saturday night to free the horses from the wreck on U.S. Highway 41 in Wadsworth, officials and volunteers said.

At least 13 animals died in the crash or had to be put down because of injuries, authorities and volunteers said.

Police are still uncertain who owns the horses.

The trailer driver, James Anderson, 34, of McLeod, N.D., told police he was transporting the horses from Indiana to an auction near Minneapolis, Lake County Sheriff's Police Sgt. Curtis Gregory said.

The crash happened just before 7 p.m. Saturday, Gregory said.

Anderson's northbound tractor-trailer was struck by a pickup truck going west on Wadsworth Road, police said. Anderson lost control, and the tractor-trailer overturned, blocking north and south lanes.

Gregory said Anderson was cited for failing to stop at a traffic light. He declined treatment and flew home to North Dakota, Gregory said. The driver of the pickup, Larry Hanlin, 67, of Libertyville, was treated for non-life-threatening injuries, Gregory said.

Illinois State Police safety inspectors are checking the tractor-trailer for violations, and Gregory said there may be charges related to how the horses were transported.

"They were just wedged in there," Gregory said.

Link to above article:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-horse_weboct29,1,3813887.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Link to discussion on FOB board where the above was posted:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/alexbrown/messages?msg=16294.96

[Daydream Believer]

59 head is not a huge load at all lots of loads of cattle are larger then that. As far as coggins and health papers I didn't see anywhere that said they didn't have any?

I thought the OP who was at the scene of the accident in person helping save the horsess stated earlier that there were no health papers or coggins on these horses. I was asking for clarification if that was indeed true. If so, that is most likely one of the "violations" for which they are being cited. I also wonder how they could have been to any quality auction if that is true as any decent auction would require that paperwork to consign the horses.

I just find the whole story of these horses and where they were from and bound to very vague.

[horseandhound]

59 head is not a huge load at all lots of loads of cattle are larger then that. As far as coggins and health papers I didn't see anywhere that said they didn't have any? Also didn't see any where that says these horses were hauled in any illegal manner if they were could someone point it out cause I missed it. Sounds to me like a bad accident which happens with vechicles be it cars all the way up to large trucks hauling many things including every species of livestock there is.


59 head of heavy work horse types can differ from cattle. Loads of cattle can differ from weanlings, feeders, finished etc. So that makes quantity irrelevant...size and weight matter, the way the animals are loaded matters....how many in each section et al.

[Renae]

59 head of heavy work horse types can differ from cattle. Loads of cattle can differ from weanlings, feeders, finished etc. So that makes quantity irrelevant...size and weight matter, the way the animals are loaded matters....how many in each section et al.

Where did you see that it was 59 head of heavy work horses? The photos show what looks to be yealring and 2 year old draft crosses.

[county]

Not every state requires coggins and health papers to sell at auctions here in Mn. for instance its not required. And beleive it or not we have lots of quality sales. And yes loads can be differant but it still not illegal to haul horses in DD trucks in this state.

[Daydream Believer]

I don’t fault the driver for making a mistake (if he did so) but I do fault the way these animals were transported and the thought that they will be quickly loaded in far worse condition for the same type of inhumane transportation. It is however illegal to take a horse through the state of Illinois without a current coggins and a health certificate from a vet that is within 30 days and clearly shows the starting and ending point of the trip.

I am told that there are laws about transporting horses through Illinois intended to go to Canada for kill. If this were the case, there would be no truth stated about were these horses were headed by the driver or owner of the equines.



This is what I read that I found confusing and wondered if the horses did or did not have coggins and health paperwork.

[Rancher]

59 head is not a huge load at all lots of loads of cattle are larger then that. As far as coggins and health papers I didn't see anywhere that said they didn't have any? Also didn't see any where that says these horses were hauled in any illegal manner if they were could someone point it out cause I missed it. Sounds to me like a bad accident which happens with vechicles be it cars all the way up to large trucks hauling many things including every species of livestock there is.

Since when can you get 30+ cows on each level? Any trailers I have seen have had around 40 head. I don't recall any having more than that. We used to pasture 1200 head every summer. That was an awful lot of loading and unloading and I am certain that the average was 40 head per trailer.

[county]

I didn't say cows I said cattle. Like horses theres many differant sizes and ages. Alkso many differant size trailers the large pots we've had 80 head of feeders in many times.

[Daydream Believer]

Not every state requires coggins and health papers to sell at auctions here in Mn. for instance its not required. And beleive it or not we have lots of quality sales. And yes loads can be differant but it still not illegal to haul horses in DD trucks in this state.


Yes, I know that within state lines it is OK to not have a coggins or health cert. but when you cross state lines you must have them by law.

Any quality sale I've ever been too required you to show a coggins just to bring your horse to the grounds. Almost all shows require them also. Meat or low end auctions do not however but usually there is a vet there to draw them.

[horseandhound]

Yes, many people don't realize how high they are inside. I looked at them from a horses point of view and it just shouldn't be done. It would be different if they were higher (like 7+ feet) or had better footing. The animals are just standing on metal. Ya, there is ridges in the metal, but it provides no traction. Even cattle were slipping and falling. Also there is no drainage. So urine and manure just pile up. Can you imagine how slippery that would be? I have no problem with hauling a group of half wild horses in a large stock trailer provided they fit, they can lift their heads and they have proper footing. But slipping falling and banging their heads?? Umm no. If I ever get another chance I am going to video tape the inside of a double decker and show how high they are inside and what the footing is like. Oh, and those little round windows go right down to the floor. And they are the perfect size for a hoof to go through. We had a weanling calf fall and put his leg through. He snapped his leg in half. It was really really horrible and he was destroyed immediatly. Horses panic more than cattle, so how easy would it be for one of them to snap a leg? I bet it has happened before.


Those holes are breathe holes, ventilation. A steer does not throw his head as high as a horse. These trailers are for farm stock, the largest being a steer and the head room is deemed sufficient enough. The floor with the ridges is not adequate for any animal, but that's another issue. The I beams on the ceiling are a huge bone of contention for horses.
When I transported calves we did use bedding. The veal babies (day olds) at least got some comfort from the bedding as the cruel winds whipped through the many ventilation holes and the metal just got colder and colder. I eventually quit farmstock and went to horse transportation only (I also became a vegetarian too!)

[horseandhound]

Where did you see that it was 59 head of heavy work horses? The photos show what looks to be yealring and 2 year old draft crosses.

Since when did a draft cross heading for a work horse sale not meet work horse standards?????

[county]

Like I said can someone show me where they didn't have required paper work I honestly have not seen anything saying so as proven fact? Someone who was there said so? So what if I'm the ytrucker I sure ain't going to walk around showing everyone paper work its no ones business except law enforcement and the USDA. Most of what I've read here is speculation and nothing more.

[horseandhound]

Regarding the cattle/pig truck debate, this was posted on the FOB board's discussion about this horrible wreck:

After crash, future of 46 horses in question
By Jeff Long | Tribune staff reporter
5:03 PM CDT, October 28, 2007

The fate of 46 horses that survived a weekend wreck in Lake County remained unclear Sunday as investigators looked into why 59 Belgian draft horses were being transported in a double-deck trailer made for cattle and pigs.

"Picture a narrow trailer, slippery as snot, a dangerous cavern filled with horses piled on top of each other, some of them kicking dangerously," said Colleen Fisch, the coordinator for horse enthusiasts in Wisconsin that helped with the rescue. "They were all in sections too small for horses. For the rescuers, it was extremely dangerous."

Firefighters and dozens of volunteers worked for more than five hours Saturday night to free the horses from the wreck on U.S. Highway 41 in Wadsworth, officials and volunteers said.

At least 13 animals died in the crash or had to be put down because of injuries, authorities and volunteers said.

Police are still uncertain who owns the horses.

The trailer driver, James Anderson, 34, of McLeod, N.D., told police he was transporting the horses from Indiana to an auction near Minneapolis, Lake County Sheriff's Police Sgt. Curtis Gregory said.

The crash happened just before 7 p.m. Saturday, Gregory said.

Anderson's northbound tractor-trailer was struck by a pickup truck going west on Wadsworth Road, police said. Anderson lost control, and the tractor-trailer overturned, blocking north and south lanes.

Gregory said Anderson was cited for failing to stop at a traffic light. He declined treatment and flew home to North Dakota, Gregory said. The driver of the pickup, Larry Hanlin, 67, of Libertyville, was treated for non-life-threatening injuries, Gregory said.

Illinois State Police safety inspectors are checking the tractor-trailer for violations, and Gregory said there may be charges related to how the horses were transported.

"They were just wedged in there," Gregory said.

Link to above article:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-horse_weboct29,1,3813887.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Link to discussion on FOB board where the above was posted:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/alexbrown/messages?msg=16294.96



Renae..This ones for you.....59 BELGIAN DRAFT HORSES....Work horse types last time I looked.

[Renae]

Since when did a draft cross heading for a work horse sale not meet work horse standards?????

Which work horse sale were they going to? The story was trying to be spun that these were full grown full sized purebred Belgians, no, they were not, they were much smaller part bred colts. The pictures clearly show that. Is Jeff Long of the Tribune an expert horseman, did he contact the owners to see what breed of horse they were, or is he also putting his own spin on the story or just reporting what seem like good enough factsto him?

[county]

DDB, beleive me not every sale is the same and my guess is you haven't been to a whole lot of them in this state cause there nothing like you describe. The world is a tad bigger then ones back door.

[vpstevens]

It is illegal to transport horses in the state of Illinois without 30 day health papers and current coggins (unless destined to slaughter). So, if these horses were not destin for slaugher, then they should have proper paperwork. Since the Lake County Sherriff department does not understand agricultural law, they must wait until the Illinois department of Agriculture opens tomorrow to seek out additional violations relating to equine transport in the state of Illinois.

We have many people (including myself) willing to pay greater than slaugher prices to obtain these horses. We are being told that we might not be able to adopt them since they are already possibly presold for slaughter and all carry slaughter brands. I can only regret that we did not uthenized all of them at the scene if that is where this aweful journey will conclude for them in the coming days. We will not know much more until federal investigators visit the equines in the morning.

[Renae]

It is illegal to transport horses in the state of Illinois without 30 day health papers and current coggins (unless destined to slaughter). So, if these horses were not destin for slaugher, then they should have proper paperwork. Since the Lake County Sherriff department does not understand agricultural law, they must wait until the Illinois department of Agriculture opens tomorrow to seek out additional violations relating to equine transport in the state of Illinois.

We have many people (including myself) willing to pay greater than slaugher prices to obtain these horses. We are being told that we might not be able to adopt them since they are already possibly presold for slaughter and all carry slaughter brands. I can only regret that we did not uthenized all of them at the scene if that is where this aweful journey will conclude for them in the coming days. We will not know much more until federal investigators visit the equines in the morning.


Who is telling you that they carry slaughter brands? Who put the slaughter brands on the horses? Do you actually have facts or are you merely posting speculation again? So you wish you would have laid more animals to waste then have them fulfill a purpose?

[county]

Call me crazy but killing something just to kill it is rather sick.

[horseandhound]

Which work horse sale were they going to? The story was trying to be spun that these were full grown full sized purebred Belgians, no, they were not, they were much smaller part bred colts. The pictures clearly show that. Is Jeff Long of the Tribune an expert horseman, did he contact the owners to see what breed of horse they were, or is he also putting his own spin on the story or just reporting what seem like good enough factsto him?

Heck, you had better get onto the Tibune Staff and tell him he's wrong. Or maybe he has a hidden agenda and you can flush him out. After all you are so adamant that they're part bred... I don't really think that reporting them as full bred versus part bred is going to make his story a winner. Maybe he's going from the paperwork on site and the POLICE report.

[luvmytbs]

It is illegal to transport horses in the state of Illinois without 30 day health papers and current coggins (unless destined to slaughter).

VP, I believe since the slaughter ban passed in IL, ALL horses are now required to have coggins and health certs when entering the state.

[horseandhound]

Call me crazy but killing something just to kill it is rather sick.

Yeah tell that one to the trophy deer hunters!!!

[Renae]

Heck, you had better get onto the Tibune Staff and tell him he's wrong. Or maybe he has a hidden agenda and you can flush him out. After all you are so adamant that they're part bred... I don't really think that reporting them as full bred versus part bred is going to make his story a winner. Maybe he's going from the paperwork on site and the POLICE report.

No, it just gets to me once in a while that the anti-slaughter group is so adament on spinning every story tinto a crusade against slaughter, that you advocate wastefully euthanizing a horse and letting the carcass rot over using the carcass to make food and useful products. And tat you shut down slaughter houses in the name of humanity, only now manya horses suffer more as they are shipped farther to processing facilities out of the country. If you really had the humane treatment of the horses and wisely using out enviroment's reasources in mind you would advocate setting up a packing plant in every state equipped to humanely process horses (as well as every of animal of hoof and feather that we eat).

[luvmytbs]

When people here haul unhandled horses, like the BLM hauls the horses for adoption, or people haul their weanlings and yearlings, they haul them in groups.
Remember, they are not even approachable, much less haltered and do better in a group than fighting a single spot with a division they can try to climb over or slip under if they fall down.


Aside from BLM mustangs, would someone please explain to me why on earth would yearlings or any other age group horses be unhandled????
What was the reason of breeding horses so they could remain "unhandled"? What horse industry caters to such animals?

[Bluey]

It is obvious that some of those talking about DD's have never been close to one, no matter what they call themselves.;)

My neighbor drives one and yes, I know what they look like.
The floors and sides are adjustable in most, so they can accomodate different size stock, from small calves to mature cattle, that some are larger than many horses.

There are plenty of pictures floating around the internet with BLM horses unloading out of DD's, posted when people try to deny that, you can look for them.
Rodeo companies haul their horses in them, along with their cattle.

Since many people don't haul large numbers of horses any more, most are not familiar with horses handled and hauled in numbers, so they think it should be banned, when it doesn't hurt horses.

Sure, this was a terrible wreck, but so it would have been if it was a van full of horses going to a broodmare farm, or to a show.
I bet then the OP would not have titled the thread "Slaughter!", but "terrible accident".:(

[vpstevens]

Who is telling you that they carry slaughter brands? Who put the slaughter brands on the horses? Do you actually have facts or are you merely posting speculation again? So you wish you would have laid more animals to waste then have them fulfill a purpose?

The people that are housing the horses know very well what a slaughter brand is and that is what they state is on them! If you are asking me if I trust my sources, then yes, I do.

[edited by w.] Your views are gross if you believe that young horses that have just sustained gross amounts of pain should stand, be untreated and await transportation for being killed for packing meat to be exported to other countries.

Also, I need to be clear and publish that many of these horses where given drugs (such as Dexmeth) that are not permitted in horses intended for slaugher. Wow, which ones were treated? I don't think anyone kept track...... What a shame!

[Daydream Believer]

DDB, beleive me not every sale is the same and my guess is you haven't been to a whole lot of them in this state cause there nothing like you describe. The world is a tad bigger then ones back door.

County I've been to sales across New England, the Mid Atlantic states and N. Carolina, but I'll admit that I've not done any in Minnesota...so I think I've gotten around a bit more than my back door as you put it. ;) Perhaps things are done a bit differently in other places than in your state and maybe you need to get out a bit more yourself? Here in the East you have to have a coggins to take a horse to nearly anyone's stable (esp. commercial stables like my own) or any show to include a nice sale like Frying Pan Park or any of the big sales run here in the Mid Atlantic. Any sale, other than the low end sales like New Holland or Unadilla require them.

I was not speculating but asking for clarification on the coggins and paperwork issue if the OP knew the facts since they mentioned it earlier.

[Renae]

You really are not welcome on my forum and you should leave.

Last time I checked it is not your forum it is the Chronicle of the Horse's Forum.

[horseandhound]

No, it just gets to me once in a while that the anti-slaughter group is so adament on spinning every story tinto a crusade against slaughter, that you advocate wastefully euthanizing a horse and letting the carcass rot over using the carcass to make food and useful products. And tat you shut down slaughter houses in the name of humanity, only now manya horses suffer more as they are shipped farther to processing facilities out of the country. If you really had the humane treatment of the horses and wisely using out enviroment's reasources in mind you would advocate setting up a packing plant in every state equipped to humanely process horses (as well as every of animal of hoof and feather that we eat).

When did I become part of the Anti Slaughter Group???? I raise beef for your table!!! I watch double deckers come in here on a regular basis. Wow....talk about jumping to conclusions.

My point is LOAD RATIOS.......nothing more. These are reported as BELGIANS...HEAVY comes to mind. Either way 100 small goats of 59 horses, the wieght aspect and loading has to be calculated. You can overload a trailer with anything.

You are ranting, uncontrollably at the wrong person...shame on you for that.. your credibility went out with my babies bath water.

[Renae]

When did I become part of the Anti Slaughter Group???? I raise beef for your table!!! I watch double deckers come in here on a regular basis. Wow....talk about jumping to conclusions.

My point is LOAD RATIOS.......nothing more. These are reported as BELGIANS...HEAVY comes to mind. Either way 100 small goats of 59 horses, the wieght aspect and loading has to be calculated. You can overload a trailer with anything.

You are ranting, uncontrollably at the wrong person...shame on you for that.. your credibility went out with my babies bath water.

I personally don't eat beef. It was as simple to look at the pictures to see that it is cross bred colts, not full sized purebred Belgian show hitch geldings. Very different load sizes there.

[Daydream Believer]

The people that are housing the horses know very well what a slaughter brand is and that is what they state is on them! If you are asking me if I trust my sources, then yes, I do.

Also, I need to be clear and publish that many of these horses where given drugs (such as Dexmeth) that are not permitted in horses intended for slaugher. Wow, which ones were treated? I don't think anyone kept track...... What a shame!

So you are saying that there were no health papers or coggins on the horses or that it is not determined yet?

What do you mean by a "slaughter brand?"

I doubt the drugs will matter to the owners or the slaughter house. Nobody enforces the withholding periods now for horses nor asks if one has ever had bute...which permanently makes a horse inedible by people by law.

[PineTreeFarm]

..so I think I've gotten around a bit more than my back door as you put it. ;) Perhaps things are done a bit differently in other places than in your state and maybe you need to get out a bit more yourself? Here in the East you have to have a coggins to take a horse to nearly anyone's stable (esp. commercial stables like my own) or any show to include a nice sale like Frying Pan Park or any of the big sales run here in the Mid Atlantic. Any sale, other than the low end sales like New Holland or Unadilla require them.

Don't know about sales but I have NEVER been asked for a coggins at a show within or out of state . I've seen some shows that mention the requirement in the prize list but it's not enforced. Individual stables may ASK for a coggins when accepting a new boarder. So it's nice to say you need it but if no one is checking then the requirement is useless.

[horseandhound]

It is obvious that some of those talking about DD's have never been close to one, no matter what they call themselves.;)

My neighbor drives one and yes, I know what they look like.
The floors and sides are adjustable in most, so they can accomodate different size stock, from small calves to mature cattle, that some are larger than many horses.

There are plenty of pictures floating around the internet with BLM horses unloading out of DD's, posted when people try to deny that, you can look for them.
Rodeo companies haul their horses in them, along with their cattle.

Since many people don't haul large numbers of horses any more, most are not familiar with horses handled and hauled in numbers, so they think it should be banned, when it doesn't hurt horses.

Sure, this was a terrible wreck, but so it would have been if it was a van full of horses going to a broodmare farm, or to a show.
I bet then the OP would not have titled the thread "Slaughter!", but "terrible accident".:(

Please tell me about the adjustable floors!!! I'd love to know more so I can patent it! Pen size is one thing but adjusting that floor is plain genius!

We all know what they look like...ever been in one, loaded one, driven one??

[Bluey]

The people that are housing the horses know very well what a slaughter brand is and that is what they state is on them! If you are asking me if I trust my sources, then yes, I do.

You really are not welcome on my forum and you should leave. Your views are gross if you believe that young horses that have just substained gross amounts of pain should stand, be untreated and await transportation for being killed for packing meat to be exported to other countries.

Also, I need to be clear and publish that many of these horses where given drugs (such as Dexmeth) that are not permitted in horses intended for slaugher. Wow, which ones were treated? I don't think anyone kept track...... What a shame!

You are out of line to tell anyone that they don't belong here, just because you don't like what they have to say, it is not what you want to hear.

Why don't you read thru some other slaughter posts, so we won't have to repudiate your ideas all over again, since we have been rehasing them time and again?
Do we really want another repetition of all the old slaughter posts, just so you learn where your ideas are not as right as you think they are?

I understand that you are shocked from the wreck you helped with, but if you come here to repeat old tired animal rights arguments, you will get answers you don't like.;)

[Bluey]

Please tell me about the adjustable floors!!! I'd love to know more so I can patent it! Pen size is one thing but adjusting that floor is plain genius!

We all know what they look like...ever been in one, loaded one, driven one??

I have chipped the ice off the edges with a crowbar, so the driver could move the floor up or down, whatever he needed, several times.
Some times to make double deckers out of triple deckers.

Guess that you have not been around as much as you think you have?;)

[county]

Me thinks some have no concept of what a public forum is.

BTW adjustable floors have been around for years in livestock trailers.

[horseandhound]

I personally don't eat beef. It was as simple to look at the pictures to see that it is cross bred colts, not full sized purebred Belgian show hitch geldings. Very different load sizes there.

Pernickity springs to mind here...did anyone ever ask you as a kid the which was heavier... a ton of feathers or a ton of bricks???

Total numbers of horse loaded (shetlands, mules, minis. drafts, it doesn't matter)...weight does...this truck was probably overloaded...top heravy, no even weight distribution.

Bet you eat eat chicken though!!!!!

[Daydream Believer]

Don't know about sales but I have NEVER been asked for a coggins at a show within or out of state . I've seen some shows that mention the requirement in the prize list but it's not enforced. Individual stables may ASK for a coggins when accepting a new boarder. So it's nice to say you need it but if no one is checking then the requirement is useless.

What kind of shows do you do? We had a fun show last weekend and were checking coggins and horses do not come into my stable without one. Most of the dressage shows or horse trials I go to require a coggins with your entry or you are not allowed to enter. The sales I'm talking about require a pre registration and coggins were required for that also.

[horseandhound]

I have chipped the ice off the edges with a crowbar, so the driver could move the floor up or down, whatever he needed, several times.
Some times to make double deckers out of triple deckers.

Guess that you have not been around as much as you think you have?;)



Moveable floors....Mulch trailers Blah, Blah, Blah. Doesn't change the tyer of flooring though does it Ms/Mr Genius??? It moves the load from one end to the other....How does this help the horses?? It moves it up or down, doesn't change the fact that it's diamond plate/chequer plate whatever else you would like to call it...It's still a metal floor.

[chai]

No matter how you feel about slaughter, this is a heartbreaking story. Poor horses.

[county]

I've ratrely been checked for a coggins and we take horses from Mn. to Tx. and back. Most pl;aces require them very few bother to check. In 2005 here out of over 45,000 tests there were 4 cases its just not a big issue here. I buy and sell in Mo., Ok., and Tx. a great deal and rarely get asked for coggins till I take my papers into the office after stalling.

[horseandhound]

Me thinks some have no concept of what a public forum is.

BTW adjustable floors have been around for years in livestock trailers.

I guess my perception of adjustable was changing it from metal to rubber topped....But if you believe that an adjustable metal floor is acceptable for horses, more power to you.

[deltawave]

EVERY show I've entered in oh, maybe the last TEN YEARS requires a Coggins to be mailed with the entry. If they didn't, I'd send one anyway. How would you know the Coggins requirement isn't enforced unless you ignored the request to send one with an entry? :confused:

Not that requiring or having a Coggins is any sort of surrogate for responsible horse care, but flouting the requirement sure sounds to me like the act of an irresponsible owner.

[county]

Most the shows I show in don't require preregestration.

Horseand hound thats exactly my point, if someone thinks something is fine and its also legal I see no reason to make snide remarks about it.

[Bluey]

Moveable floors....Mulch trailers Blah, Blah, Blah. Doesn't change the tyer of flooring though does it Ms/Mr Genius??? It moves the load from one end to the other....How does this help the horses?? It moves it up or down, doesn't change the fact that it's diamond plate/chequer plate whatever else you would like to call it...It's still a metal floor.

No, those are not mulch trailers, but cattle trailers.
Here, the floors are ribbed, so cattle don't slip and horses don't either.
Do you need any more information?:)

[Daydream Believer]

I think coggins are a lot more of an issue here in the warmer climates in the East or the deep south. My point is that I have been asked to show the coggins a number of times. I remember once in NY at a state park they were checking for them and horses that did not have them had to leave. I don't think I've ever been to a show where I have not had to show a neg. coggins either. I've also traveled interstate from VA to WY and back to KY and IN. Many overnight stabling stopover places will ask to see your paperwork and they will check. I know I would if I were doing that sort of business.

[county]

In this state the test is good for a full year so there pretty much meaningless seeing as how its got a 45 day incubation period. The horses I know for sure I'll need one for the year I get done in Jan. Almost impossable to transmit EIA in Mn. winters so I loke to show how much more of a joke the rule is.

[Alagirl]

Aside from BLM mustangs, would someone please explain to me why on earth would yearlings or any other age group horses be unhandled????
What was the reason of breeding horses so they could remain "unhandled"? What horse industry caters to such animals?

Many farms and ranches don't handle their young stock until it's time to start them. They are not the pampered baby all of your dreams ride on or that have a 5 digit pricetag attached to them.

Some professionals rather deal with an older unhandled horse than one that has been spoiled. different strokes for different folks.

[Renae]

I have only ever been to 2 facilities that checked my coggins as they are suppsoed to be checked- by comparing them to the horses that are actually in your trailer as you come in the gaet. They were Canterbury Park and the Kentucy State Fair. I've been to a few other places that have checked them at the ingate before I unloaded, but didn't actually look to see if the coggins I presented matched the horses in the trailer. The majority of places I go only ask to see them in the show office when I check in. Been to a few places that don't care if you hae them at all.

[horseandhound]

No, those are not mulch trailers, but cattle trailers.
Here, the floors are ribbed, so cattle don't slip and horses don't either.
Do you need any more information?:)

Cattle don't slip on ribbed flooring? What planet are you on?? Heck they even slip on super quality, state of the art flooring going into the milking parlour. Horses definitely slip, shoes or no shoes. Even handlers/drivers slip on those floors especially when they are wet from pee and poop.

Mulch trailers was referring to moveable floors..Please re-read my post, digest and comprehend!

[county]

We halter break our foals and handle them daily when weaned for about two weeks. After that there caught for farrier work, vaccinations, and worming other wise they run together in about a 40 acre pasture till late two year olds when formal training starts. System has worked great for over 40 years for me.

[Alagirl]

Cattle don't slip on ribbed flooring? What planet are you on?? Heck they even slip on super quality, state of the art flooring going into the milking parlour. Horses definitely slip, shoes or no shoes. Even handlers/drivers slip on those floors especially when they are wet from pee and poop.

Mulch trailers was referring to moveable floors..Please re-read my post, digest and comprehend!


Is it fool moon again?


JESUS...what a load of Sniping we are having here tonight...


pass the chips, this is getting good!

[horseandhound]

Is it fool moon again?


JESUS...what a load of Sniping we are having here tonight...


pass the chips, this is getting good!


You first!!

[Bluey]

Cattle don't slip on ribbed flooring? What planet are you on?? Heck they even slip on super quality, state of the art flooring going into the milking parlour. Horses definitely slip, shoes or no shoes. Even handlers/drivers slip on those floors especially when they are wet from pee and poop.

Mulch trailers was referring to moveable floors..Please re-read my post, digest and comprehend!

:rolleyes: :sigh: :rolleyes: :sigh: :p :lol:

[luvmytbs]

Many farms and ranches don't handle their young stock until it's time to start them.

Some professionals rather deal with an older unhandled horse than one that has been spoiled. different strokes for different folks.

But do you expect those unhandled horses to sell in bulk at an auction like Shipshewana for anything more than a few dollars?
If the reports are correct, they showed up with 4 loads of these animals, which would roughly account for 200 head. :confused:

[county]

You first? Don't think that was digested or comprehended.

[county]

I've been to many many ranch sales where foals just weaned and not handled average in the $1000's. Good horses are good horses period and many many users of working horses would rather buy unhandled young stock and train them their own way.

[horseandhound]

:rolleyes: :sigh: :rolleyes: :sigh: :p :lol:

Heck Bluey, Falling behind here! Is that the best you can come up with??

[Bluey]

You first? Don't think that was digested or comprehended.

Well, if you insist, I will keep informing.
Here, "mulch trailers", silage trailers, some cotton trailers, honey wagons, have "live floors", they move the material forward, not floors that move up and down to accomodate different sized livestock.:cool:

[luvmytbs]

I've been to many many ranch sales where foals just weaned and not handled average in the $1000's. Good horses are good horses period and many many users of working horses would rather buy unhandled young stock and train them their own way.

I would like to see 200 quality horses coming into an auction like Shipshewana at one time. You'd be taking them all back home as no-sales.

[horseandhound]

You first? Don't think that was digested or comprehended.

Oh County, one as eloquent and well versed as yourself didn't get that. Judging by your response Im guessing you are posting under several different names!

[horseandhound]

Well, if you insist, I will keep informing.
Here, "mulch trailers", silage trailers, some cotton trailers, honey wagons, have "live floors", they move the material forward, not floors that move up and down to accomodate different sized livestock.:cool:

Please...even your brain should be able to read what I said...MOVEABLE FLOORS....front to back, up or down....REREAD the post.... It's still a metal floor...
Hell, how many metal floors do you see in HORSE TRAILERS???

UP OR DOWN, SIDE TO SIDE IT'S STILL A LIVE FLOOR!

Your knowledge of trailers is admirable, what a shame you can't differentiate between a trailer suitable for horses and one suitable for farm stock.

[county]

ROTFLMAO Differant names? You'd be very very wrong I've never used any other name on any other forum. I am who I am and never found any reason to change

[Shellythehorsenut]

We halter break our foals and handle them daily when weaned for about two weeks. After that there caught for farrier work, vaccinations, and worming other wise they run together in about a 40 acre pasture till late two year olds when formal training starts. System has worked great for over 40 years for me.


That is pretty much what we do too. We do keep them up after weaning until you can walk right up and halter them and they tie. Then they are turned out in a field with a shed and left to grow and play. They make darn good horses that way.

[Alagirl]

But do you expect those unhandled horses to sell in bulk at an auction like Shipshewana for anything more than a few dollars?
If the reports are correct, they showed up with 4 loads of these animals, which would roughly account for 200 head. :confused:

I am not expecting anything, just stating what I have learned about US horse keeping, much of it was new to me, and I would be hard pressed to try, but then, I don't own a ranch either, nor am I in the business of breeding and baby handling.

[fernie fox]

http://www.bristolwisconsin.com/Horse%20semi-trailer%20Accident%20Photos.htm

How do these people get away with transporting so many animals crammed into one vehicle...:mad:

[county]

All depends on the size of the vechicle I've seen way more crammed into a 16 foot trailer then I'd like personally.

[county]

BTw its obvious everyones idea of graphic is really differant, if people think this is graphic they should spend a day on a kill floor in a livestock slaughter house of any species.

[Luckydonkey]

Aside from BLM mustangs, would someone please explain to me why on earth would yearlings or any other age group horses be unhandled????
What was the reason of breeding horses so they could remain "unhandled"? What horse industry caters to such animals?
Well, out here in the wild west, alot of big breeders of ranch horses do not even halter break their babies until they bring them in as 2 yr olds to break them. They let them grow up on open range. also, for those interested- Oregon does not require a coggins, or a health cert for horses coming to a sale, or into the state, and they no longer require brand inspections either. Our horse sales do not have a brand inspector or a vet.

[Luckydonkey]

BTw its obvious everyones idea of graphic is really differant, if people think this is graphic they should spend a day on a kill floor in a livestock slaughter house of any species.

I agree. Also, how many of you have ever hauled horses in a stock trailer- many of them are barely over 6ft tall, are about 5 to 6ft wide, and are usually around 16ft long- not alot of headroom in those, and yet horses do haul in them just fine....I agree with the ventilation holes along the bottom of the top deck and possibilities of getting legs stuck- that is a dangerous thing,but I do not feel like the roof height is a major factor for most average sized horses.... and a draft cross yearling is average sized, and about the same size as a butcher cow, smaller if your talking holsteins, and they haul an awful lot of those around, and no one complains a bit.

[doodlebugg]

Oh those poor horses When I click on the link with pictures of the accident my heart sunk~ Those poor babies look scared to death & the horse covered by the plaid blanket really looks bad does anyone know if it survived~ Hopefully these babies get the care they need~ Does anyone know how they are doing as of today?

[philosoraptor]

Many farms and ranches don't handle their young stock until it's time to start them. They are not the pampered baby all of your dreams ride on or that have a 5 digit pricetag attached to them.


Some farms do and some don't. But I can tell you at the auction, the "loose" stock go straight to the killbuyers. At least the halter trained or started-under-saddle ones have some chance at some home. In a horse market that's oversaturated with the under "5 digit pricetag" horses, breeders need to try a little harder.

It also begs the question how they gave those young horses vaccinations, farrier, vet check ups, dental check, and tending any ailments for years? Seems kind of neglectful? And again, send a horse with no medical care & no farrier through auction, and he'll sell for

No wonder the slaughter buyers love to shop in the US. We happily overproduce to keep prices down for the killbuyers. :cry:

[Bluey]

They may have been overloaded, but when hauling live weight, you want them snug in there, so the weight won't shift on you when moving and cause a wreck from that, or so some don't lay down and get trampled.

That is why you haul livestock tight, just definitely not to the point of being crammed in there.

[county]

The ' loose " stock go straight to the kill buyers? I hardly think thats true of all loose horses since last week I was at a ' loose " horse sale and some went for over $1000. Me thinks you don't know what the slaughter market is if you think their paying $1000 a head.

[Luckydonkey]

You have different auctions/sales than we do over here in the west- loose horses sell a little cheaper than ones ridden through- but they get homes just as easy as the other ones- unless they are horribly thin, injured, or have a horrible attitude problem- then the meat buyer ends up with those- alot of the young uncut 2 yr old colts get bought by the eastern oregon ranch cowboys- they take them home, geld them, break them and put them to work- nothing breaks a horse better than using it day in and day out on a several thousand acre ranch- they can then resell those same colts they paid a couple hundred bucks for, for several thousand after they get them broke good.... it happens alot....prices are going down here, but the it is always the same people buying the same types of horses... and not all of us are meat buyers....I am planning on going to get a couple more in January...

[Bluey]

Some farms do and some don't. But I can tell you at the auction, the "loose" stock go straight to the killbuyers. At least the halter trained or started-under-saddle ones have some chance at some home. In a horse market that's oversaturated with the under "5 digit pricetag" horses, breeders need to try a little harder.

It also begs the question how they gave those young horses vaccinations, farrier, vet check ups, dental check, and tending any ailments for years? Seems kind of neglectful? And again, send a horse with no medical care & no farrier through auction, and he'll sell for

No wonder the slaughter buyers love to shop in the US. We happily overproduce to keep prices down for the killbuyers. :cry:

Ever heard of raising horses "the natural way"?
Some breeders think they have better horses later, when the raise them like wild horses.:cool:
Remember, most ranches breed horses for their own use.

That is what is so good in the USA, we can do what we believe is best, although we sadly keep chipping away at that every day.

[county]

It always amazes me ( though I really don't know why any more ) how some people feel if everyone doesn't do things the way they do them they have to be wrong. Are they actually that insecure with their life and way of doing things that they just can't accept theres more then one way?

[luvmytbs]

The ' loose " stock go straight to the kill buyers? I hardly think thats true of all loose horses since last week I was at a ' loose " horse sale and some went for over $1000. Me thinks you don't know what the slaughter market is if you think their paying $1000 a head.

We are talking Shipshewana here, I suppose you haven't been there?

Does the name Jaron Gold ring a bell? Oh wait: Minnesota: Joe Simon, Richard Godbout. More familiar to you? You couldn't sell them Stormcat for more than $ 200. (That's being sarcastic by the way)

[county]

I didn't see where we were talking any certain place at all? And your right your being sarcastic Joe Simon has paid way more then $200 for a whole lot of horses over the years and sold even more.

[Erin]

If this turns into yet another slaughter thread (and judging by the fact that all the usual suspects are, as usual, monopolizing the conversation), it will be closed.

Talk about the accident, but leave slaughter debate out of it.

[vpstevens]

Those poor babies look scared to death & the horse covered by the plaid blanket really looks bad does anyone know if it survived~ Hopefully these babies get the care they need~ Does anyone know how they are doing as of today?


The horse under the plaid blanket did not survive. The horses are all badly banged up but all are standing today and started on the long road to recovery.

[Bluey]

The horse under the plaid blanket did not survive. The horses are all badly banged up but all are standing today and started on the long road to recovery.

I hope they do better than a few of those in the wreck here did, that took months to be able to continue on their trip.
Others were lucky and went on right off.

[Coup De Des]

No matter how you feel about slaughter, this is a heartbreaking story. Poor horses.


Where's the fun in just expressing sympathy but :confused:

[fernie fox]

vpstevens?

What is going to happen to these youngsters?are they going to be kept until ownership is sorted out?.

Are rescues involved?Which ones?

[Chicagoland]

This is mostly my babble from this morning as I was working the accident -in case you are interested.....

Bristol Horse Country & Friends,

Here is the information I have as of 10:43 am. Be aware that this is what I am aware of but it may change. I was on site last night so my story is mine....

We had a double decker trailer overturn here last night at 41 and Wadsworth Rd in the north bound lanes adjacent to the BP station. The semi was loaded with 59 horses. 4 were ponies, the rest Belgians. They appeared to be PMU slaughter babies - 80+% yearlings or two year olds. I will post the pictures of the accident as quickly as I can and let you know the link. We hand dragged them off the trailer, one at a time.

We literally were pulling them out on their sides or even backs by the halter and a rope around the front legs. We did have plywood slide boards (which I will be happy to explain how to make) which made life much better once they were out of the trailer. We had to be very careful because they often were struggling as we pulled them free which can mean upside down, flipping over, hooves flying in very slippery close quarters.

Very ugly scene dragged out by hand. Many completely prone, on their sides. Very shocky. Blanket under the head, blanket on the horse and let the downer have some time to recover. Most needed about a half an hour before they came out of it enough to try to get up. Lots of lacerations, really ugly head and eye wounds. I did not see any truly disgusting or freakish wounds but I am sure they have a lot of bruising under their coats. Great, sweet animals. Once up, trusting almost to the last, most led right on to waiting stock trailers with no problem. Last count 13 dead? I will follow up with my story as soon as I have time to write more. Disgusting. Going from Shipshewana, IN to Slaughter in Canada? (although the driver said they were going to auction in MN, everyone on scene seemed convinced that they were clearly slaughter bound).

We had six vets, Bristol Horse Country, Lake County Posse, Tempel Farm staff, and local equine professionals on scene assisting and boy were we needed! Thank god this accident happened in Chicago's Horse Country where we had the personnel to help.

We were fortunate that we had Chief Kirschoffer from Newport Fire Dept running the scene, Kirschoffer had completed our Bristol Horse Country Equine Rescue Techniques course and a more advanced equine rescue course (Lake County Posse financed) at the horse park in KY. This meant that we had a horse trained scene commander who had vet phone numbers on his person ( I know because I printed it and had him put it in his wallet this summer).

CHRONICLE READERS: Training your fire/rescue dept really pays off. Get together with your local horse people and train your fire/rescue personnel! (first rule:type of a list of all area equine vets and xerox it to wallet size and make your fire dept members each put one in their wallets. 2nd rule: #1 thing a First Responder should do in any equine situation is call an equine vet!)

We had at least 5 horse rescue trained fire/paramedics on the scene last night and probably about 50 people working on the mess as a whole. Used every halter, lead, blanket and cooler I brought to the scene and there is nothing like watching horses die on your nice $300.00 Rambo blanket... Sorry to go on but it was pretty traumatic and took 3+ hours? to get them offloaded. I have never seen anything like this and I hope you never have to. Because of good scene safety management and a LOT of cooperation by a lot of different local horsepeople, no people were injured rescuing as far as I know.

All horses were taken to the nearby Carney farm in Wadworth and Carney is asking people to please stay away from the farm at this point. 44? Living horses were all up as of this morning and vets were there this morning. They have good hay and shelter at this point. I am told that these were PMU babies, that this was one of 4 semi trailers of no- sale horses from the Indiana auction that were headed to a MN sale and then slaughter in Canada. I will let you know asap if donations are needed but I am told that there are federal investigators? investigating tomorrow.

SOME of the people we can all thank are:

Newport Township Fire and Rescue and backup- True heroics in exhausting and largely unfamiliar circumstances.

Vets: Kevin Nelson, John Hannover, Gary Koehler, Steve ?, Leslie?, one other one. (I will get more names later) I have never, ever seen our local equine guys work so hard in my life. In particular, Kevin Nelson, Gary Koehler and John Hannover were doing humping, hard work in dangerous, dangerous conditions inside of the trailer. Gary Koehler was so wet with sweat he was unrecognizable to me initially. I can not emphasize enough how dangerous it was in there and how physically exhausting it was to pull horses, living and dead out on their sides one at a time.

Scott Golliday, Mike Kelly, Phil May, Lori Stevens, Meaghan Richards, Jean Nolan, Bernie Leonard, Dale and Kari Wright, Larry Leffingwell, Tempel trainer Jurgen, Sarah, Angie, Misty, Laura Paukner, Kendall DeRoo, Lake County Posse members in force (many were at a party in the area at the time). In particular, I witnessed Mike Kelly, Scott Golliday and Phil May doing incredibly hard humping work in dangerous conditions in the trailer physically pulling horses out... I will let you know more names when I have them and please don't be upset if I didn't name you - there were too many Posse people and others I did not know and couldn't take the time to meet.



Colleen Fisch
Bristol Horse Country
The Greater Willinois Horse Corridor
www.bristolwisconsin.com
cmurphyfisch@sprintmail.com

[Aimee Thanatogenus]

Thankyou, Chicagoland



It always amazes me ( though I really don't know why any more ) how some people feel if everyone doesn't do things the way they do them they have to be wrong. Are they actually that insecure with their life and way of doing things that they just can't accept theres more then one way?

Pot meet kettle.
:rolleyes::yes:

[millwrightmomma]

Having read this from start to finish, I have nothing but respect for the police, firemen, and volunteers that helped out with this tragic accident.
That many horses on a DD is disgusting, any horses on a DD is disgusting.

IMO the OP is right, those horses are going to slaughter. Period ,end of story.
New slaughter house in Saskachetewan folks, courtesy of the foks at Cavel :(

Facts here, too, folks.......the BLM might have at one time shipped with DD's.
Not any more:)
I had 33 mustangs all over the age of ten yrs brought to Canada, state of the art truck and trailer, 3 drivers knowledgeable and wellspoken, knew horses. The trailer had separate pens that could , if required hold 11 horses.
Our trailer had 5 or 6 sections. A single low belly trailer.

If those horses are transported next week, most will not survive the trip.
Transportation laws have to change.

[vpstevens]

[QUOTE=fernie fox;2766425]vpstevens?

What is going to happen to these youngsters?are they going to be kept until ownership is sorted out?.

Are rescues involved?Which ones?

We are told that the insurance company now owns the horses so all we can do is wait to try to contact them tomorrow. We will do everything that we can to save them. We are receiving emails from people that were there looking to adopt these horses.

Here is short video which was posted on Youtube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS9zafG2JX8

[doodlebugg]

Thank you for the update & the photos as I stated before those poor horses~ The two that the poster of the pictures believe were the last two out were so sweaty and looks like you can see steam coming off of them if you look down by there legs~God bless all of you people that were there to help and I hope these horses are not loaded up on a trailer the next few days and sent on to finish the trip that was originally started for them~ Perhaps some of the people that got the horses turned over to them from the last Semi Truck accident can help direct someone in the direction as to how to help these horses and to keep them from being loaded up and moved on to the sale right away~If anyone finds out how we can help please let us know~

[UNCeventer]

God bless all those who helped out with the accident.

Chicagoland- what else can one do to help the firedept know more about equine rescue?

Fernie Fox- I also thought that the dbl deckers were illegal for carrying horses. I guess I was wrong. I am assuming it varies by state then?

For what its worth- Even when I go trail riding at the local national forest, there are park rangers that check coggins and if you do not have them, they make you leave. I have even been stopped on the highway in VA and KY by the police checking coggins AND health certificates! Its always good to know what each state requires before you get there.

[RainyDayRide]

Fernie Fox- I also thought that the dbl deckers were illegal for carrying horses. I guess I was wrong. I am assuming it varies by state then?


The use of DDs for general transport of equines is illegal only in NY, PA, MA and VT.

[fivehorses]

I think it is apparent from the news stories that these are horses being shipped to Minnesota.
From there, the slaughter plant is across the plant in Canada.

When horses destined for slaughter( which one could surmise from this story-since most people do not transport their animals in double deckers). MN is where many east coast horses go on thier way to Canada to slaughter.

The insurance company is coming out to inspect the truck and the dead horses and more than likely not provide a rebate on the remaining living horses.

I hope Hooved Animal Society can purchase these horses since they have already been through enough.

If you can, please contact them and inquire about this accident and what you can do to help.

If you believe in slaughter, ignore my post.

[Bluey]

Having read this from start to finish, I have nothing but respect for the police, firemen, and volunteers that helped out with this tragic accident.
That many horses on a DD is disgusting, any horses on a DD is disgusting.

IMO the OP is right, those horses are going to slaughter. Period ,end of story.
New slaughter house in Saskachetewan folks, courtesy of the foks at Cavel :(

Facts here, too, folks.......the BLM might have at one time shipped with DD's.
Not any more:)
I had 33 mustangs all over the age of ten yrs brought to Canada, state of the art truck and trailer, 3 drivers knowledgeable and wellspoken, knew horses. The trailer had separate pens that could , if required hold 11 horses.
Our trailer had 5 or 6 sections. A single low belly trailer.

If those horses are transported next week, most will not survive the trip.
Transportation laws have to change.

Remember, we have been asked not to make this YET ANOTHER ANTI SLAUGHTER THREAD?

Since your unknown assertations can't be debated without crossing the moderators, you may want to restrain yourselves a little?
This is COTH, not one more animal rights/rescue site to ask for donations.;)
Quit using this tragedy for yet more propaganda, will you, please?:(

[Liberty]

Remember, we have been asked not to make this YET ANOTHER ANTI SLAUGHTER THREAD?

Since your unknown assertations can't be debated without crossing the moderators, you may want to restrain yourselves a little?
This is COTH, not one more animal rights/rescue site to ask for donations.;)
Quit using this tragedy for yet more propaganda, will you, please?:(

Bluey,

Her post (to me anyway) was primarily concerning inhumane transportation issues rather than the "s" word, along with expressing appreciation for those who witnessed that horrible wreck and were there to help those unfortunate horses. She also backed up my earlier post about BLM using specially-made single-decker trailers to haul their horses in a proper, humane way.

Concerning "unknown assertations", you mentioned that BLM hauls their livestock in DDs and that there are pics "on the internet" to prove it. Could you please post some of those pics? Please also includes the dates of those pics and confirmation that it was, in fact, BLM who was doing the hauling.

A friend of mine is contacting Karen Mallory, who is head of the Wild Horse & Burro Program for the entire U.S., about this transportation issue. Both my friend and I would love to see these "BLM DD" pics, and I'm sure Ms. Mallory would be interested in them too.

Thanks.

[SweatySaddlepad]

I actually could give a rats ass where these horses were headed, 59 nine in a rig that size is too many. Anyone know what the weight restrictions are on a rig like that? Huge thanks and kudos to all that were involved in helping these horses as I'm sure it was a long exhausting night both physically and mentally. As far as the insurance company claiming them, well they are there so speak their responsibility. However, I cannot believe they would be in any shape to travel and IF they tried to transport them I would definately have a problem with it until they are rested and have appropriate vet attention, once again regardless of where they are going.

[Bluey]

Bluey,

Her post (to me anyway) was primarily concerning inhumane transportation issues rather than the "s" word, along with expressing appreciation for those who witnessed that horrible wreck and were there to help those unfortunate horses. She also backed up my earlier post about BLM using specially-made single-decker trailers to haul their horses in a proper, humane way.

Concerning "unknown assertations", you mentioned that BLM hauls their livestock in DDs and that there are pics "on the internet" to prove it. Could you please post some of those pics? Please also includes the dates of those pics and confirmation that it was, in fact, BLM who was doing the hauling.

A friend of mine is contacting Karen Mallory, who is head of the Wild Horse & Burro Program for the entire U.S., about this transportation issue. Both my friend and I would love to see these "BLM DD" pics, and I'm sure Ms. Mallory would be interested in them too.

Thanks.

Look, we have been asked not to pursue another S controversy, so I won't, you do at your own risk.

Tell that lady to go to horsecity.com for her pictures.
There are some there, taken by an adopter, as the horses were unloaded.

This story broke here, by this OP, with the title "Slaughter!". Nuff said.

[Liberty]

Bluey,

Quit mentioning the "s" thing, unless you're TRYING to get this thread locked. I have not pursued, and will not pursue, that angle at all, and I don't see where you're getting the idea that I am.

Since you are unwilling to support your own assertions that BLM is hauling in DDs, I will go and see if I can find this info myself. Of course, any pics I might find without dates and irrefutable proof that it was BLM doing the hauling will be worthless and prove nothing.

[luvmytbs]

I believe it would be in anyone's interest to outlaw double deckers as a transport option for horses. Even though it is still legal in most states, the USDA does NOT recommend it for horses.

In this particular case, this driver was cited for speeding three times in 2007 already and that's just the incidents when he was caught. Obviously he has no regard for other vehicles and humans, while hauling across the country with that much weight in tow.

[horseandhound]

This is mostly my babble from this morning as I was working the accident -in case you are interested.....

Bristol Horse Country & Friends,

Here is the information I have as of 10:43 am. Be aware that this is what I am aware of but it may change. I was on site last night so my story is mine....

We had a double decker trailer overturn here last night at 41 and Wadsworth Rd in the north bound lanes adjacent to the BP station. The semi was loaded with 59 horses. 4 were ponies, the rest Belgians. They appeared to be PMU slaughter babies - 80+% yearlings or two year olds. I will post the pictures of the accident as quickly as I can and let you know the link. We hand dragged them off the trailer, one at a time.

We literally were pulling them out on their sides or even backs by the halter and a rope around the front legs. We did have plywood slide boards (which I will be happy to explain how to make) which made life much better once they were out of the trailer. We had to be very careful because they often were struggling as we pulled them free which can mean upside down, flipping over, hooves flying in very slippery close quarters.

Very ugly scene dragged out by hand. Many completely prone, on their sides. Very shocky. Blanket under the head, blanket on the horse and let the downer have some time to recover. Most needed about a half an hour before they came out of it enough to try to get up. Lots of lacerations, really ugly head and eye wounds. I did not see any truly disgusting or freakish wounds but I am sure they have a lot of bruising under their coats. Great, sweet animals. Once up, trusting almost to the last, most led right on to waiting stock trailers with no problem. Last count 13 dead? I will follow up with my story as soon as I have time to write more. Disgusting. Going from Shipshewana, IN to Slaughter in Canada? (although the driver said they were going to auction in MN, everyone on scene seemed convinced that they were clearly slaughter bound).

We had six vets, Bristol Horse Country, Lake County Posse, Tempel Farm staff, and local equine professionals on scene assisting and boy were we needed! Thank god this accident happened in Chicago's Horse Country where we had the personnel to help.

We were fortunate that we had Chief Kirschoffer from Newport Fire Dept running the scene, Kirschoffer had completed our Bristol Horse Country Equine Rescue Techniques course and a more advanced equine rescue course (Lake County Posse financed) at the horse park in KY. This meant that we had a horse trained scene commander who had vet phone numbers on his person ( I know because I printed it and had him put it in his wallet this summer).

CHRONICLE READERS: Training your fire/rescue dept really pays off. Get together with your local horse people and train your fire/rescue personnel! (first rule:type of a list of all area equine vets and xerox it to wallet size and make your fire dept members each put one in their wallets. 2nd rule: #1 thing a First Responder should do in any equine situation is call an equine vet!)

We had at least 5 horse rescue trained fire/paramedics on the scene last night and probably about 50 people working on the mess as a whole. Used every halter, lead, blanket and cooler I brought to the scene and there is nothing like watching horses die on your nice $300.00 Rambo blanket... Sorry to go on but it was pretty traumatic and took 3+ hours? to get them offloaded. I have never seen anything like this and I hope you never have to. Because of good scene safety management and a LOT of cooperation by a lot of different local horsepeople, no people were injured rescuing as far as I know.

All horses were taken to the nearby Carney farm in Wadworth and Carney is asking people to please stay away from the farm at this point. 44? Living horses were all up as of this morning and vets were there this morning. They have good hay and shelter at this point. I am told that these were PMU babies, that this was one of 4 semi trailers of no- sale horses from the Indiana auction that were headed to a MN sale and then slaughter in Canada. I will let you know asap if donations are needed but I am told that there are federal investigators? investigating tomorrow.

SOME of the people we can all thank are:

Newport Township Fire and Rescue and backup- True heroics in exhausting and largely unfamiliar circumstances.

Vets: Kevin Nelson, John Hannover, Gary Koehler, Steve ?, Leslie?, one other one. (I will get more names later) I have never, ever seen our local equine guys work so hard in my life. In particular, Kevin Nelson, Gary Koehler and John Hannover were doing humping, hard work in dangerous, dangerous conditions inside of the trailer. Gary Koehler was so wet with sweat he was unrecognizable to me initially. I can not emphasize enough how dangerous it was in there and how physically exhausting it was to pull horses, living and dead out on their sides one at a time.

Scott Golliday, Mike Kelly, Phil May, Lori Stevens, Meaghan Richards, Jean Nolan, Bernie Leonard, Dale and Kari Wright, Larry Leffingwell, Tempel trainer Jurgen, Sarah, Angie, Misty, Laura Paukner, Kendall DeRoo, Lake County Posse members in force (many were at a party in the area at the time). In particular, I witnessed Mike Kelly, Scott Golliday and Phil May doing incredibly hard humping work in dangerous conditions in the trailer physically pulling horses out... I will let you know more names when I have them and please don't be upset if I didn't name you - there were too many Posse people and others I did not know and couldn't take the time to meet.



Colleen Fisch
Bristol Horse Country
The Greater Willinois Horse Corridor
www.bristolwisconsin.com
cmurphyfisch@sprintmail.com


Thanks for the update, straight from the horses mouth, so to speak!
Guess you're about as hands on as it gets. Please keep us updated as to how this pans out.

[horseandhound]

Liberty: I pasted this from the BLM website:

"The BLM requires stock-type trailers with rear swing gates to transport adopted animals. Drop ramp, divided two-horse trailers, and trucks with stock racks are not acceptable. However, in some situations, two-horse trailers are acceptable for transporting burros and horses 12 months or younger. Only burros may be loaded into in-line or one-horse trailers. The BLM will inspect trailers and reserves the right to refuse loading if the trailer does not ensure the safety and humane transport of the animal."

Decide for yourself if it sounds like they use DD trailers. I'm going to give them a call later ths morning and see if it's a practise that they encourage. Maybe when they're transporting en mass they have a different policy.

[Daydream Believer]

The BLM no longer uses double deckers. I used to work closely with the BLM and did several promotional events with them and my BLM mustang. I was told by them that they did not use them any longer as it was bad for the public image as most people felt they were inhumane and they did have a higher rate of injuries while using them. One agent was actually sad about that as he said it saved them a lot of money to use them but they were no longer allowed to. This was in 2001 that I had this conversation so I suspect it's been at least since then or earlier that they stopped using double deckers.

[Luckydonkey]

those trailers are what they require for potential adopters to use to take a horse home in- that is not what they themselves haul them in to the adoption sites. The ydid use a DD to haul them to our fairgrounds when they hosted an adoption site a cou-le summers ago- they backed it right to a chute and ran them down into the corrals.

[mephistopheles]

Oh god, HAHS is involved?

[Bluey]

Oh god, HAHS is involved?


I would not be surprised if this shows up in some animal right associations donation drives.
Why not, is free, ready made publicity they didn't have to pay anyone to stage it for them.

Where will those horses go? Well, at last count, there are already 210,000 unwanted horses around right now.
Maybe those were already counted with them, I don't know.

Right now, around here, you can't find a buyer for ANY kind of horse, unless very fancy bred, good looking, with color and with a performance record, at any price, even if you give them away.
Much less some half draft yearlings.

Many that may adopt them for the good feel of doing something and bragging rights on internet forums may find themselves with an extra horse they may not have wanted or could support after all.
If they really wanted one more horse and have resources for one, why not get a needy horse where they live?
There sure is not a lack of unwanted horses.:(

We see the same sudden interest in adopting, after some sad story, in our local animal control shelter, when that story is in the news, with some unwanted dogs.
People come to adopt them, but if the one on TV is gone, most people don't want another.
Guess that only the ones in the news make good conversation topics around the coffee pot in the office lounges.
We keep euthanizing from 30 to almost 100 a day.:(

Guess that we should be humble and happy for ANY one of those horses that may find a home, if they come up for adoption, no matter the reason the adopter has for doing so and wish them all the best of luck.:yes:

[J Swan]

I'm no longer involved with the BLM facility in NoVa, but I'm pretty sure they used DD to haul horses into the facility. Things may have changed since then, of course.

I'm always horrified to see any accident involving an animal - kudos to all the folks, including EMS that helped extricate the horses.

I'm not surprised that the price of these animals was about 100$ - that's what drought and rising feed prices does to prices.


Question - why the "oh god" comment on HAHS? Just curious.

[deltawave]

Is the HAHS (Hooved Animal Humane Society) an animal rights freak show? I thought they were pretty straight. Not to be confused with HSUS!! THAT is a freak show.

[Daydream Believer]

Where will those horses go? Well, at last count, there are already 210,000 unwanted horses around right now.


Sure sounds like speculation to me. :yes: What is your documentation to post a number like that of "unwanted" horses? What is your definition of "unwanted" or whoever came up with that number and what is their criteria? What are the sources of those numbers? PMU farms annual foal crop, large ranches overbreeding, rescues, horses for sale, etc?

[SweatySaddlepad]

Is the HAHS (Hooved Animal Humane Society) an animal rights freak show? I thought they were pretty straight. Not to be confused with HSUS!! THAT is a freak show.


No HAHS is NOT a freak show animal rights wacko rescue. Bluey HAHS is not an animals rights organization, must we go down the road of rights vs humane care again :rolleyes: HAHS have a proven track record as a humane organization. I guess Bluey in your eyes there are no "good" humane associations as you seem to not have a nice word to say about any. I can't say for sure that HAHS is involved but I'm sure they are.

Lets give all those who are trying to help our support as everyone does not always have ulterior motives, many are just plain trying and wanting help.

[Bluey]

Sure sounds like speculation to me. :yes: What is your documentation to post a number like that of "unwanted" horses? What is your definition of "unwanted" or whoever came up with that number and what is their criteria? What are the sources of those numbers? PMU farms annual foal crop, large ranches overbreeding, rescues, horses for sale, etc?

Unwanted horses, 212,000 and counting
Friday, October 12, 2007, 7:43 AM

by Dave Russell

It is one of the biggest issues the American Horse Council is dealing with and Dave Howell, chairman of the American Horse Council’s State Horse Council Advisory Committee tells Brownfield it is really big.

“So today we are facing over 212,000, documented starving horses in the United States,” said Howell.

Brought about by the horse slaughter ban, the issue is one that no one seems to have an answer for - not even the American Horse Council.

“We have cases where they have been turned loose in parks, they’ve been turned loose in coal mine areas, they’ve been turned loose on private property, but until the public becomes aware we have a crisis I don’t think we’re going to get any reaction because most people feel like, hey this animal is a beautiful animal, it’s a pet and we need to protect it, not realizing it weighs 1200 pounds, takes a bale of hay a day, takes and acre and a half per horse to feed, what are we gonna do with the unwanted horse, we don’t know, we don’t have an answer,” Howell said.

That’s not saying the American Horse Council isn’t working on the issue, because they are. They’ve formed an unwanted horse coalition to educate horse owners and they are developing proactive plans to take care of the horse.


Interview with Dave Howell, American Horse Council (5:15 MP3)


You remember that story in TN, later supposedly "debunked" by animal rights groups, that the loose horses were from someone "just turning them out for winter"?
Well, you didn't hear any more form that story, because they did find some of those horses were dumped there after all, unwanted.

You may ask them about their sources.;)

Really, I think we are right on the line of what we are supposed to discuss here, so keep on without me.

I expect we will hear much more about those horses, since so many here come from animal rights sites and they love to rehash those tragedies that work out in their favor.
The horses were in a wreck, maybe with fault, maybe not, just one more sad accident, we will see.

[Daydream Believer]

I'd like very much to see what their documenatation is. It does not sound like they bothered to take into account the severe hay shortage and drought before blaming the horses condition on the fact that options for disposal and sale of them has become a little harder...assuming their owners ever considered doing so which many people who starve and neglect horses never even think to do. Their credibility went to zero when they failed to even mention the fact that hay is more difficult to find and more expensive now than it has been ever in many parts of the country assuming that their numbers are even remotely accurate. I also find the lack of a comparative number of starving horses to last year's numbers a bit telling proving that there has indeed been a documented increase...in that they probably don't even know and are just playing on people's emotions and hype to sway their opinions.

[carosello]

Here is another article I found.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-horse_weboct29,0,5960426.story?coll=chi_tab02_layo ut

http://www.bristolwisconsin.com/Horse%20semi-trailer%20Accident%20Photos.htm

[luvmytbs]

bluey,

you are getting quite boring with all that stuff you pull from your favorite "sources" from the net.

And again, you want to turn this into a slaughter thread.

Take a vacation; go and count those "unwanted" horses yourself.

[philosoraptor]

It does not sound like they bothered to take into account the severe hay shortage and drought before blaming the horses condition on the fact that options for disposal and sale of them has become a little harder...assuming their owners ever considered doing so which many people who starve and neglect horses never even think to do.

Someone correct me if there is new info, but all the reports I get say these were PMU horses.

PMU farms rarely keep the foals they produce, except for a few mares to become broodmares. Foals are just a disposable byproduct of the Premarin production. Hay price has nothing to do with whether the PMU farm will keep the foals or not. What use does a PMU farm have with a bunch of young colts?

In other words, these horses were meant to be sold somewhere. If you're selling a horse and you want them to go somewhere besides a killpen, you feed it and clean it up. The mere fact someone crammed 59 on a cow double-decker tells me the owner didn't give a rat's anus about what happened to them.

Who else to be blame if not the owners when horses are allowed to get in very poor condition? Are owners no longer legally responsible if their horses are suffering?

[Glimmerglass]

When this story broke on the Chicago morning news Sunday I just simply could not fathom the number: 59 horses in a semi. No matter if it is a reconfigured double decker it simply boggles the mind. I was convinced the Associated Press got it wrong. Obviously that was correct and as the Tribune articles have cited the horses were stuffed in there and not able to really stand up.

I'm shocked the police allowed the drive to leave. That shouldn't have happened. I don't care if the sentiment is "he's just the driver" as he knew full well what he was doing was wrong. This isn't a kilo of coke hidden in some box amongst hundred of boxes. Its living (barely) animals who are not like sheep or cows not matter how much some may try to equate.

The truck must've been in violation of I-DOT rules with weight and I don't believe double deckers are legal for hauling horses. The driver and trucking company also should have their commerical license revoked for the State of Illinois. Period.

[mephistopheles]

No HAHS is NOT a freak show animal rights wacko rescue. Bluey HAHS is not an animals rights organization, must we go down the road of rights vs humane care again :rolleyes: HAHS have a proven track record as a humane organization. I guess Bluey in your eyes there are no "good" humane associations as you seem to not have a nice word to say about any. I can't say for sure that HAHS is involved but I'm sure they are.

Lets give all those who are trying to help our support as everyone does not always have ulterior motives, many are just plain trying and wanting help.

HAHS has been involved in a few "shady" dealings... I live about 15 minutes away and frequent the used tack shop they have, and have overheard some interesting conversations, plus know quite a few people involved :rolleyes:. While I like the fact that they are not as crazy as the HARPS lady, I have to wonder about the horses that have been there for 7 or 8 years and have not been adopted...

[SweatySaddlepad]

HAHS has been involved in a few "shady" dealings... I live about 15 minutes away and frequent the used tack shop they have, and have overheard some interesting conversations, plus know quite a few people involved :rolleyes:. While I like the fact that they are not as crazy as the HARPS lady, I have to wonder about the horses that have been there for 7 or 8 years and have not been adopted...


Gossip is rarely what I would call facts, back it up. Coming from a small town I know how one statement in one week can become completely falsified. They have had some pretty scrict adoption policies which are now becoming a little more flexible, but policies are in place to protect and for no other reason. I will not become involved in a humane org. bash fest, I'm sick and tired of this, there are many great orgs out there that do their best. One I know of personally that I support got so bashed it affected their donations significantly that they almost had to shut the doors, and they are THE GOOD GUYS and did nothing wrong except try to help!

[Woodland]

I guess after my initial horror to the images of the dead horses being dragged on to a flatbed for disposal, I thought "Do we expct things to be different?"

I mean IF the plant in DeKalb was still operating they would have been there instead of Wadsworth. The horror of their death would have been delivered swftly. Without sirens or pandimonium or suffocating under another. Just BANG and over.

Honestly do we expect less than a cattle trailer with 59 horses aboard? Do we cringe even a little that these animals are now livestock bound for slaughter out of the country? Do we feel just a twinge that they'll get driven from venue to venue and then to Canada or Mexico for their ultimate dimise?

Do we feel their hunger? Because no one feeds and waters them. No one beds them down in a warm stall. Or puts ointment on thier booboos They are LIVESTOCK. Transported in the most economic way posible. No one is paying this driver $1.00 per loaded mile per horse. The Driver is NOT stopping every four hours to hay and water and rest their legs. The driver is a make a buck working for a living LOVESTOCK hauler paid on the high end 40 CENTS per mile - loaded or unloaded.

I live about 30 miles from the DeKalb plant. I have never sent a horse there. I know a few that have. They could not afford to put the old guy down. So they hauled him there on an appointment and had him humanely euthanized. His remains being useful instead of landfil fodder. And they walked away with a few hundred to pay a few bills with. Would I do it? NO, but I can not condem those who have. I get it.

For every truck that tips over there are a hundred+ we never know about. For every horse someone lovingly gives to a new home - there are dozens that are not so lucky. They live in a farm just down the road. For all of us blessed to have enough - enough feed, hay, and money to care for those we have - there are so many that have not. For the breeders of good horses the market is just as horible as those with garbage for sale.

You can not save them all. I have tried - it is not posible there are always more. Instead be merciful. Allow them them the right to die - since they are anyway - on their home soil, in the fastest way posible. To let their death be useful instead of fruitless. Since their lives have had so little meaning thus far - why cheapen it even further? Bred without plans. Bred because their parents could be. Not handled, not trained, just common livestock - it's what they are. They are not glamorous. They are not pets. They have few manners. They have no purpose - like beef cattle they head to slaughter because no better plan was made for them.

If I came home from Congress to a barn full of moth eaten untrained injured drafties - my Son in law would have to find new digs! Seriously - having trained this breed - even the good ones are hard on the furnature! Who is covering this farm owners losses - because they will have losses. I hope the insurance company will "pony up". I'd want them packed up and on their way toot sweet!

Gird up your loins - this is just the beginning. I am ashamed of my Governor for spinelessly allowing this needless suffering. To cowtow to the iniformed that have no plan - SHAMEFUL!

[mephistopheles]

Gossip is rarely what I would call facts, back it up. Coming from a small town I know how one statement in one week can become completely falsified. They have had some pretty scrict adoption policies which are now becoming a little more flexible, but policies are in place to protect and for no other reason. I will not become involved in a humane org. bash fest, I'm sick and tired of this, there are many great orgs out there that do their best. One I know of personally that I support got so bashed it affected their donations significantly that they almost had to shut the doors, and they are THE GOOD GUYS and did nothing wrong except try to help!

And I am not one to bash either. But showing up on random peoples property claiming animals are abused and neglected is not something you do if you want to keep local support. Now, it MIGHT be better now that the old director is gone, but I have stayed away in recent years... The fact that they showed up at the barn I kept my mare at multiple times and went out in the pasture trying to catch random "neglected" horses while ignoring the skeletal pony with knees the size of volleyballs across the street really speaks volumes :no:

[philosoraptor]

A good article including a great photo:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-horse_weboct29,1,3813887.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

Horses in jam before crash

Collision killed or fatally hurt 13; fate of 46 unclear

[Appassionato]

Someone correct me if there is new info, but all the reports I get say these were PMU horses.

That's what I understood as well.

PMU farms rarely keep the foals they produce, except for a few mares to become broodmares. Foals are just a disposable byproduct of the Premarin production. Hay price has nothing to do with whether the PMU farm will keep the foals or not. What use does a PMU farm have with a bunch of young colts?

Agreed about hay prices (as well as corn and oat prices in my area, anyway) not affecting whether or not the PMU farm will keep the colts. It might affect the number of potential buyers, but not the fact the colts are up for sale.

In other words, these horses were meant to be sold somewhere. If you're selling a horse and you want them to go somewhere besides a killpen, you feed it and clean it up. The mere fact someone crammed 59 on a cow double-decker tells me the owner didn't give a rat's anus about what happened to them.

The double decker being used told me the same thing. Now I've read that some ranchers take their horses this way to some places, and we're talking about mostly well-trained horses...not scared yearlings. Scared yearlings can get hurt in a padded room...an unsafe trailer? THIS is why I have a problem with how these guys were moved. I don't feel their safety was a consideration.

Who else to be blame if not the owners when horses are allowed to get in very poor condition? Are owners no longer legally responsible if their horses are suffering?

I don't know much about drafts in general, I didn't see that many pictures so I can't say they looked poor in condition. However I can't say they WEREN'T poor in condition either. In any case, considering how they were being transported, I too feel the owners are to blame. Good questions though, I've been asking these questions often for several months regarding a case here at home.

[summerhorse]

Sure sounds like speculation to me. :yes: What is your documentation to post a number like that of "unwanted" horses? What is your definition of "unwanted" or whoever came up with that number and what is their criteria? What are the sources of those numbers? PMU farms annual foal crop, large ranches overbreeding, rescues, horses for sale, etc?


No kidding. I was sent that article when it came out and I sure can't find any documentation. Heck that's almost (or more?) TWICE the number of horses that were S*******D last year!! Where are all these starving horses? And since they still can send them to S****R WHY are they starving to death? Because they are owned by people who are too stupid to even send them to S***R than let them starve to death.

Horses starve because the people that own them have a screw loose or just don't care and can't be bothered to sell them or give them away before they die. Assuming they even think there is anything wrong with them.

For other people who ARE selling their horses the economy and hay prices/shortages are the root of that problem along with the continued over breeding of everything that has killed the market.

While these guys were only 1 and 2 year olds it is obvious from their pictures that there are every bit as tall or taller than your average horse just not as heavy and 59 of them is way too many to be crammed in any livestock trailer. Normally those type of trailers carry 40-45 horses in a mixed load.

I suspect that once it is all sorted out the insurance company will be happy to get their money from anyone, they don't care where it come from or where the horses go. And the insurance money will be eaten up by fines!

Beyond the inhumanity of the traveling conditions it should be obvious that another issue with these trailers is public safety. This driver could easily have killed the people in the truck he hit (lucky he only hit one!) and the crash that followed could have taken out more people if they were near the scene. Responders could have been hurt or killed by thrashing horses. It is totally inappropriate to ship horses in these trailers and the only ones that seem do it regularly are rodeos and KBs. Which means the rest of the horse world has figured out that these are not appropriate transport vehicles.

[LessonLearned]

Gee and WHERE was this PUBLISHED?

And for the record what you see posing as "logic" below is called a "Post Hoc" fallacy (false argument). Two things happening together do not equal causation. What is stated below is a supposition that the end of the slaughter industry in the US has somehow led to horses being neglected. Horses were being neglected by people too unwilling/cheap/stupid/lazy/cruel long before slaughter ended. What we see here is a group of people who failed to plan for winter, bred too many horses, and don't feel like making the effort to actually care for the horses that they took responsibilty for.

And, of course, this is also one more attempt to divert attention to the real issue at hand (a "red herring" fallacy, BTW), which is the fate of the poor horses victimized by this situation and now facing a terrible and uncertain fate.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled trainwreck. . .


Unwanted horses, 212,000 and counting
Friday, October 12, 2007, 7:43 AM

by Dave Russell

It is one of the biggest issues the American Horse Council is dealing with and Dave Howell, chairman of the American Horse Council’s State Horse Council Advisory Committee tells Brownfield it is really big.

“So today we are facing over 212,000, documented starving horses in the United States,” said Howell.

Brought about by the horse slaughter ban, the issue is one that no one seems to have an answer for - not even the American Horse Council.

“We have cases where they have been turned loose in parks, they’ve been turned loose in coal mine areas, they’ve been turned loose on private property, but until the public becomes aware we have a crisis I don’t think we’re going to get any reaction because most people feel like, hey this animal is a beautiful animal, it’s a pet and we need to protect it, not realizing it weighs 1200 pounds, takes a bale of hay a day, takes and acre and a half per horse to feed, what are we gonna do with the unwanted horse, we don’t know, we don’t have an answer,” Howell said.

That’s not saying the American Horse Council isn’t working on the issue, because they are. They’ve formed an unwanted horse coalition to educate horse owners and they are developing proactive plans to take care of the horse.


Interview with Dave Howell, American Horse Council (5:15 MP3)


You remember that story in TN, later supposedly "debunked" by animal rights groups, that the loose horses were from someone "just turning them out for winter"?
Well, you didn't hear any more form that story, because they did find some of those horses were dumped there after all, unwanted.

You may ask them about their sources.;)

Really, I think we are right on the line of what we are supposed to discuss here, so keep on without me.

I expect we will hear much more about those horses, since so many here come from animal rights sites and they love to rehash those tragedies that work out in their favor.
The horses were in a wreck, maybe with fault, maybe not, just one more sad accident, we will see.

[Bluey]

---"...they probably don't even know and are just playing on people's emotions and hype to sway their opinions."---

Look who is talking.:rolleyes:

The wreck we tended to had some horses that were fit to travel right off.
We kept the others some for a few days, others weeks and a few months, before they could travel.
Their trainer sent a van to pick them up as quick as each one could travel.
I expect that is what they will do here also.

We had our stable full and had to send some of our horses off, to make room for those in the wreck that could not travel.
I expect the place that took those horses in is doing the same now, until things get sorted out.

[catknsn]

I agree. Also, how many of you have ever hauled horses in a stock trailer- many of them are barely over 6ft tall, are about 5 to 6ft wide, and are usually around 16ft long- not alot of headroom in those, and yet horses do haul in them just fine.....


What? No, they don't. I would never put horses in a stock trailer that was not 7 feet tall. Horses bang and bloody up their heads in the short ones. Unless you're hauling ponies, you don't put them in a "barely over 6 foot tall" stock trailer. Who does that?

[Marli]

Has anyone close to official sources been able to approximate or determine the weight this double decker was carrying? Not questioning for any argument, just curious on the weight of this load?

[Daydream Believer]

---"...they probably don't even know and are just playing on people's emotions and hype to sway their opinions."---

Look who is talking.:rolleyes:



No you look who's talking. I'm not the one posting total garbage, propaganda and one sided pro S_____R hype on the internet in the middle of a discussion on a tragic horse trailer wreck. You are and you continue to try and take this topic off it's course despite Erin's warnings not to.

[Marli]

County-

I read a commentary you made referencing how common it is in your area to load approx. 80 head of cattle (all sizes) on double deckers.

I know that each state has weight restrictions in place for tractor trailer combinations - what is your opinion on whether placing 80 head of cattle (again, all sizes) in a double decker for transport being legal by weight restrictions? Not looking to argue any points, just curious if you feel there are/or have been weight restrictions violations?

[Lori]

(quote)Lastly, if a parent is inhumane to their child, the child does not just get handed back over to the parent. (quote)


Yes, they do. This happens ALL the time. I remember a few years ago in DC that this was happening on a regular basis and children were dying. I got so sick of reading it in the Washington Post that I just stopped at the headlines. This whole system is messed up.......Humans can't even take care of themselves, much less what most consider "lesser" creatures. :(

[Bluey]

No you look who's talking. I'm not the one posting total garbage, propaganda and one sided pro S_____R hype on the internet in the middle of a discussion on a tragic horse trailer wreck. You are and you continue to try and take this topic off it's course despite Erin's warnings not to.

I am thru, you are not, as everyone, including the moderators, can see.
I am defending myself only, not accusing anyone.
A big difference. Shame on you.

I agree, the driver may not have been driving legally, but that happens all the time with drivers.
The truck may have been overloaded, that also happens.

There are laws and regulations and I am sure they will investigate and blame will be assorted.
We don't know yet if the truck or the pickup caused the wreck.

The horses that survived are being taken care of now.

Everything else here is guessing big time.:confused:

[Bluey]

(quote)Lastly, if a parent is inhumane to their child, the child does not just get handed back over to the parent. (quote)


Yes, they do. This happens ALL the time. I remember a few years ago in DC that this was happening on a regular basis and children were dying. I got so sick of reading it in the Washington Post that I just stopped at the headlines. This whole system is messed up.......Humans can't even take care of themselves, much less what most consider "lesser" creatures. :(

Unless someone can find an angle to legally say they were abusing the horses under some law, those horses are the property of whoever owned them while in transit.

We really can't go taking anything away from people, just because we don't like the way they do things.:eek:

[horse crazy inTX]

Awful lot of assumptions that these horses were even slaughter bound to begin with. Why can't we all chalk it up to a tragic accident and let it go minus all the anti-slaughter BS.

And why would anyone question the possibility of 212,000 DOCUMENTED cases of starvation? The article didn't say unwanted it said starving. I don't doubt that possibility for even a second. From 1989-1992 about one million US horses went to slaughter in the US because of financial situations due to tax changes. With the high prices of gas and feed, 43% of the US in a drought and no US slaughter what makes anyone think we aren't heading for a major horse crisis? People better take off the rose colored glasses and open their eyes. :eek:

[Daydream Believer]

I am thru, you are not, as everyone, including the moderators, can see.
I am defending myself only, not accusing anyone.
A big difference. Shame on you.



I really doubt you are through but please prove me wrong. :winkgrin: I just don't want to see it shut down when people turn it on to another topic than the one at hand.

[RainyDayRide]

We don't know yet if the truck or the pickup caused the wreck.


Given that the semi driver was cited for running a red light, I might just make a wild guess that he was at fault.

And I agree with the earlier post about the need to get a national ban on the use of DDs for equine transport.

[Bluey]

County-

I read a commentary you made referencing how common it is in your area to load approx. 80 head of cattle (all sizes) on double deckers.

I know that each state has weight restrictions in place for tractor trailer combinations - what is your opinion on whether placing 80 head of cattle (again, all sizes) in a double decker for transport being legal by weight restrictions? Not looking to argue any points, just curious if you feel there are/or have been weight restrictions violations?

Not County, but here, for most such trailers, the limit we load is 50,000 lbs. of cattle.
That is deceiving as how many cattle may be in there, because some light weights you put less lbs in there, because you would have to crowd them too much to make the maximum by weight.
Pregnant cows you also have less room for than the same number of skinnier steers.

The way they tell, four were ponies, the rest yearling colts and some mention 59 head.
I would guess they could have loaded 22 on the bottom, 20 on top, 7 and 1 biggest pony in front, 3 ponies in the jail and 6 colts in the back.

Can't guess at the weights they would have been, but it would be right up there at the 50,000 lbs most can haul.
Some trucks have wiggle room, if their tractor part is lighter, so they can haul a little bit more.

[Bluey]

Awful lot of assumptions that these horses were even slaughter bound to begin with. Why can't we all chalk it up to a tragic accident and let it go minus all the anti-slaughter BS.

And why would anyone question the possibility of 212,000 DOCUMENTED cases of starvation? The article didn't say unwanted it said starving. I don't doubt that possibility for even a second. From 1989-1992 about one million US horses went to slaughter in the US because of financial situations due to tax changes. With the high prices of gas and feed, 43% of the US in a drought and no US slaughter what makes anyone think we aren't heading for a major horse crisis? People better take off the rose colored glasses and open their eyes. :eek:


You may not have read the warnings, but we are not to talk about those things here.
Don't let anyone bait you into doing so.;)

Yes, this should have been reported as a terrible accident and nothing else, at least those first few hours after it happened, before we knew more.

[Daydream Believer]

Bluey,

No one baited you. You could have answered the question about the unwanted horse numbers you mentioned earlier without posting that article and touching on the forbidden subject yet again.

[Rancher]

What? No, they don't. I would never put horses in a stock trailer that was not 7 feet tall. Horses bang and bloody up their heads in the short ones. Unless you're hauling ponies, you don't put them in a "barely over 6 foot tall" stock trailer. Who does that?

EXactly! NEVER! No one around here would dream of hauling a horse in a trailer barely over 6 feet. Sheesh. That is just a few inches over the top of my head. I live in redneck country where people still haul livestock in the back of half ton trucks (lots of headroom that way! lol!). No one wants to haul a horse to a sale and have them all banged up when they get there. Horse prices are bad enough. I have been to many many sales and I have NEVER seen horses (unless they were little ponies or minis) hauled in a low trailer. It just isn't done. And if you do it, your a fool. 6 feet?? I can't get over that someone would think that people actually do that?? I have crammed 5 horses into a 16 foot stock before, I have loaded horses saddled...I have done all kinds of foolish things in the past...but I have to say that loading a horse into a 6 foot trailer was never on my list of stupid things to do.

[horse crazy inTX]

And on the other hand there are people that say a horse will learn to keep it's head down in a low trailer if taught to do so. ;)

The head room is all relative to the height of the horse. If you read the study preliminary to the rule changes, head room wasn't that big of an issue for the MAJORITY of horses. That is why DDs weren't banned immediately but were to be phased out over a number of years.

[Rancher]

And on the other hand there are people that say a horse will learn to keep it's head down in a low trailer if taught to do so. ;)

The head room is all relative to the height of the horse. If you read the study preliminary to the rule changes, head room wasn't that big of an issue for the MAJORITY of horses. That is way DDs weren't banned immediately but were to be phased out over a number of years.


It's not just head room. When we are talking about 6 feet many horses would be scraping their backs on the roof and tall horses would actually have to kinda crouch. There is no other way to think about it. Some horses are as tall and taller than the roof of the trailer.

[luvmytbs]

Has anyone close to official sources been able to approximate or determine the weight this double decker was carrying? Not questioning for any argument, just curious on the weight of this load?

I hope they can figure it out.

In some states they allow more weight on trucks on a surface street. These are any highways except the interstates. In Colorado for instance, trucks can be 85,000 lbs on surface streets.

This may be the reason why the driver was on hwy 41.

Let's plow into something with 85,000 pounds.:confused:
Thank God it wasn't rush hour.

[horse crazy inTX]

It's not just head room. When we are talking about 6 feet many horses would be scraping their backs on the roof and tall horses would actually have to kinda crouch. There is no other way to think about it. Some horses are as tall and taller than the roof of the trailer.

And some horses wouldn't have any problem. As I said the MAJORITY of horses reviewed when forming the regs on DDs didn't have a problem with head room. I'll find the link later and post it. ;)

[Luckydonkey]

What? No, they don't. I would never put horses in a stock trailer that was not 7 feet tall. Horses bang and bloody up their heads in the short ones. Unless you're hauling ponies, you don't put them in a "barely over 6 foot tall" stock trailer. Who does that?

Are you kidding me? Go to any auction and measure height in trailers at the sale- My own stock trailer is an 87 king, and is 18ft long inside, 6 ft wide, and is 6'6 in height. My 16.3 hh friesian/percheron cross fits in it just fine.Sure, I would much rather have one at least 7ft high or higher, but this is what i have, and have never had any problems loading any horses in it. heck how about alot of the 2 horse straight load trailers out there- they are all mostly about 6ft to 6ft 6 in height inside- they are made for average sized horses- obviously you would not put 17 hh monsters in anything that size- but for most of the horse owners in the USA that are average trail riders, they have shorter more average sized horses than those on COTH who compete in or take part in more sport horse related events.

[Luckydonkey]

EXactly! NEVER! No one around here would dream of hauling a horse in a trailer barely over 6 feet. Sheesh. That is just a few inches over the top of my head. I live in redneck country where people still haul livestock in the back of half ton trucks (lots of headroom that way! lol!). No one wants to haul a horse to a sale and have them all banged up when they get there. Horse prices are bad enough. I have been to many many sales and I have NEVER seen horses (unless they were little ponies or minis) hauled in a low trailer. It just isn't done. And if you do it, your a fool. 6 feet?? I can't get over that someone would think that people actually do that?? I have crammed 5 horses into a 16 foot stock before, I have loaded horses saddled...I have done all kinds of foolish things in the past...but I have to say that loading a horse into a 6 foot trailer was never on my list of stupid things to do.
How tall is the inside height of your stock trailer? MIne is an 18ft stock and is 6ft wide, and is 6'6 tall.... plenty of room for my horse who is a 16'3 friesian/percheron cross....

[Bluey]

---"In Colorado for instance, trucks can be 85,000 lbs on surface streets."---

That is total weight for all trucks, here also. That is tractor and trailer.
Any more requires special licensing, as does wider or longer trucks.

You take the weight of the empty rig off the total weight, to see what you can haul in the trailer, most here 50,000 lbs.
DOT officers pull trucks to the side of the highway here all the time, to check weights.

That all will eventually be public records in that case, so you can go look it up as reported.

[horse crazy inTX]

Recommendation in regards to DDs:

Double-deck "pot" semi-trailers must not be used to transport very tall horses such as large draft breeds or Thoroughbreds, more than 16 hands tall.

Link:
http://www.grandin.com/references/horse.transport.html

There is a better and more in depth study but this is what I could find quickly.

[philosoraptor]

Awful lot of assumptions that these horses were even slaughter bound to begin with. Why can't we all chalk it up to a tragic accident and let it go minus all the anti-slaughter BS.

You object to the anti-slaughter BS and in the same post you're promoting slaughter. Why is it only BS if it doesn't agree with your point of view on the topic?

And why would anyone question the possibility of 212,000 DOCUMENTED cases of starvation? The article didn't say unwanted it said starving. I don't doubt that possibility for even a second.

I don't believe a word of it. How do they know? Most horses which are truly starving continue to do so because nobody sees it happening to call animal control... and if nobody is seeing it happen, how do you count it?

From 1989-1992 about one million US horses went to slaughter in the US because of financial situations due to tax changes.

No, one million horses went to slaughter because there was a demand in Beglium, France, et al for a million horses' worth of meat.

Funny how the number of "unwanted" horses is always exactly the number slaughtered in any given year?

With the high prices of gas and feed, 43% of the US in a drought and no US slaughter what makes anyone think we aren't heading for a major horse crisis? People better take off the rose colored glasses and open their eyes.

There are horses sold to slaughter in the US right now.

Spikes in the cost of gas and feed happen. The horse market fluctuating happens. It's not a recent problem.

What is your solution? Have everyone send one horse to slaughter so you don't have to worry about the low-end horse market going any lower. Guess what? Low end market is sinking faster killing them for meat can bail the market out. It's this little thing about having the thing buyers want. Right now most buyers don't want neglected, unhandled, grade stock.

So we use slaughter to prop up a sinking ship. In the meantime the horses pay the price. And they're crammed 59 at a time in overloaded unsuitable trailer. Yay for slaughter! And even better the cash the slaughter-bound horses generate goes to reward the very people we should be punishing: bad breeders, PMU farms, and irresponsible owners who dump their horses.

Any way you look at it, this was not a routine vehicle accident by a caring horse owner and his horse trailer.

[horse crazy inTX]

They went to slaughter because NO ONE ELSE wanted them but the slaughter houses PERIOD!

There are horses all over the US that nobody wants! Who is going to feed them and care for them?

[Erin]

Apparently I have not made myself clear.

Dear Usual Suspects:

The ENTIRE REST of the BB is sick and tired of your constant arguing over the slaughter issue, and its peripheral issues. Sick.and.tired. None of you appear capable of discussing it in an adult manner, without flinging insults around. While it would probably be better to ban the entire lot of you, it's easier to just close the threads that you all derail, so that's what I'm going to keep doing.

Perhaps when the other 99% of BBers get tired enough of your hijacks closing threads about issues the rest of us are perfectly capable of discussing, you'll wise up. Or go elsewhere. Surely there are other BBs out there where you can discuss this issue to your heart's content, without the inconvenience of having to deal with those who might not think the same as you? Really... look into it.