Sport pony people [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 26, 2007, 09:26 PM

There were TWO of us showing in the open classes (in hand and under saddle). Foxcry Nicodemus showed in the three year old classes. We showed our 4 yo sportpony stallion Hot Shot MRF in ALL the open classes he was eligible for at DAD. We were thrilled that he pinned in the top half of his under saddle and materiale classes and feel that sticking our neck out there was a huge success. It was VERY tough being the ONLY sportpony and I stood ringside STILL wondering if I had made an insane decision to compete him in open competition.

The best part was hearing spectators chuckle at his name and whoop like crazy when he pinned so well in such great company.

I spent all his earnings for 2007 stud fees competing at only three shows this year,,, so it definitely has not been a *cough*cough* "profitable endeavour" .

Part of our (my personal) problem is that the dressage pony market is soo small, and the costs for competing at this level are SOO high. We have plans to continue next year in the FEI 5 year olds (which is even MORE expensive) for as long as the pocketbook holds out.

I am happy to know that others ( like Elly Schobel and Shaun Bigley with her FoxCry Nicodemus) see the merit of pushing the envelope on behalf of the future of these mighty guys in the mini packages.

Izthatrt, many are working very hard to promote sportponies and would appreciate any other support they can get, no sportpony breeder on this forum is gonna flame you, they are hopeful you are another voice...

Izthatrt

Oct. 27, 2007, 06:23 AM

Magic,hmm...forgot there as so many sportpony registries. SO...why not petition DAD for an open Sportpony class?? It seems that many of them are cross registered(not so familiar w/these registeries) I have gone to a few of the inspections at Hilltop, and considered taking my stallion, but there hasn't seemed to be much return on the dollar for all the money spent. Do you think sportpony people would show up for an "Open" class? I really do love DAD, but am always disappointed w/the number of pony entries. I find it hard to believe DAD would not consider an open class, when they have Georgian Grand(had to look to see what that was) and there were 6 in the Cleveland Bay class.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 27, 2007, 07:43 AM

IMO, MagicRose, if your effort could be multiplied by about ten, it'd do wonders for the sportpony industry. In all the hullabaloo about Ted, I've come to conclude nevertheless that the only way to break free of the "can't do hunters" and/or "cheaper than a hunter" and/or "but is it trained" sportpony syndromes is to show them out there doing upper- AND lower-level stuff. In short, to show them OUT THERE.

Maybe breeders should produce fewer stock, maybe even skipping a year here or there, and instead use the vet fees and stud fees they would have paid raising that weanling, etc., to show the yearling, etc.?

Before Pam posted this topic, we talked frankly about the low numbers--and also about using the results, even though they weren't really significant because there was no competition (in ponies, that is--not in open). But overnight, I changed my mind on my initial guffaw-ing take. IMO, just getting out there, no matter how many others do, has value--including SAYING you were out there! But what gets me is why bring just one?

And that goes back to maybe putting more emphasis on getting out there than on getting more on the ground. Which is the better investment?

Magic, it was intriguing that you indicated the finances of your effort--and how you financed them--along the very same lines as I was thinking. I applaud you for doing that. I'm sure those fees could have paid for some fence repair, another load of hay, or more advertising, but I still think they were funds well spent--and I'd bet the folks who bred to your fellow would think so, too!

Same thing I think about the registries themselves: Why don't they spend some of the registration fees and inspection fees they rake in to sponsor more classes at major shows (gosh, how I'd love to see their budgets--I'd love to see where they money goes)? I know, I know: I say this at every opportunity here--and intentionally. If only registries would add value and desirability to the animals they register--instead of just adding mere paperwork! Those of you who are active in them, does this ever get discussed? What are the registries views on supporting more classes--and how about their views on doing a dressage sportpony award like the new eventing sportpony award? Tell me, please, that one of them is going to approach USDF for you guys!

Surely, you're not going to let eventers do you one better, are ya? ;)

not again

Oct. 27, 2007, 08:08 AM

The trick is, people have to get behind the effort and put their shoulder to the wheel so to speak. I sponsored the AWR and ASPR classes at Fair Hill breed show for the past two years, even though I am not a pony breeder. The AWR and ASPR sponsor these classes every year at DaD, and many other shows. The list of shows is on the ASPR site. The registry is very involved in promoting ponies on behalf of the members, and also sponsors the upcoming pony Star Search at the Royal Winter Fair (cash prize as well as ribbons).

Dalriada

Oct. 27, 2007, 10:10 AM

I'm out there showing my ASP ponies at in hand shows - open, hunter breeding, sport ponies and other breed shows (mine are all double registered either Half-Welsh or Half-Arabian).

Until this summer I had been competing in the under saddle classes but I lost that mare in July to a freak pasture accident.

So now I have to wait until the next one is ready to take out in public under saddle. I only take mine out if they look the part and perform the part. You can do more damage to the breed by going out unprepared and unfinished, than you can by just showing up.

AND yes, the ASP does sponsor the class at the Royal. From this we have grown from a circuit of 3 shows to 7 shows to 12+ shows and more fighting for the chance to host a qualifier for the Star Search Sport Pony Challenge at the Royal. (I had 2 qualified but only taking the ASP filly).

The first ASPR inspection was May 2004 in Ontario. We've come a long way since then baby.

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 27, 2007, 10:38 AM

The IBC classes ( Georgia Grand, CLeveland Bay, ASPR) at a competition like DAD are sponsored through the association, IE they pay a fee to have the class included..

AT this point I think adding more classes at DAD is putting the cart before the horse.. Until you HAVE the entries, why open classes.. the ponies CAN compete in the open classes and some of the DSHB shows already offer an ASPR High Score Sportpony Award.

I think adding a "Born In the USA" type award for SPORTPONY ( or two, one in hand, one Materiale(under saddle)) would be the wisest and would encourage ponies to show, without adding more to the show's plate. Any ideas of who would like to sponsor it? A cash prize of even $50 at a show will help draw them out.....

There is already talk of a FEI Young Horse Program Award for ponies this upcoming year at the MArkel championships.

We do not have a Bundeschampianate here, but we can still showcase our ponies!! The Pony Star Search Is an incredible way to showcase them in hand

Like Not Again, I also sponsor AWR classes at some of the DSHB shows in Virginia. Sometimes they turn into classes for all my stallion's offspring to compete against each other, so lose their merit, except that they give him/ me USEF national points towards Year End Rankings.

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 27, 2007, 10:49 AM

Do you mean Dressage at Devon? DAD?
The Devon Horse Show doesn't do "sport" ponies.

It might be wise of Devon to look into hosting a Star Search Challenge Qualifier .........

goodpony

Oct. 27, 2007, 11:37 AM

Here on the West Coast we have USDF/Cosequin Breeders Challenge that does have Open Sport Ponies:Ponies In Hand. We have been bringing our youngstock out for the last four years. The class itself has become very expensive yet we continue to support it year in and year out. The ponies are eligible to compete in both the pony and horse divisions so it does give us two classes for each pony. The west coast does not have a 'show case' show like Devon where ponies are included. *Yet* Our USDFBC are extremely competitive and well attended.

We have been out competing in open comp with all our ponies; this years budget was zapped because we chose to send our young stallion to the performance test where he is the only pony. Along the way our stallion did qualify for his regional championships in Eventing as well as finishing in the top three everytime out.(in open recognized events)..including one tiny two phase with yours truly:) Next years budget will go to presenting our younger stallion...Between Showing and Inspections things do tend to add up.

ljshorses

Oct. 27, 2007, 08:47 PM

There are other registries with sport ponies such as ISR/OldNA and RPSI. These registries don't sponsor a seperate sport pony class so the ponies have to show against horses in the registry. I belong to RPSI and had thought of showing my sport pony in the RPSI class but frankly I feel it is too difficult to have a pony judged fairly against horses. I would wholeheartedly support and sponsor an "open" sport pony class and even tried to this year but DAD has 1 registry only classes with the one exception being "Ponies of the Mooreland" that was held last year. If they would allow an "open" sport pony class I would love to sponsor it and would do so for next year. This would most definitely bring more ponies to the class and would have ASPR,ISR/OLDNA,RPSI as well as regular pony breeds allowed. Lori, do you think this could ever be possible? If not at Devon, what about Fair Hill Dressage Breed Show?

hluing

Oct. 28, 2007, 09:41 AM

Don't forget Weser-Ems which are essentialy GOV ponies. I have been trying to get the registry to do something like this as well...but while the numbers are small an open class would be great. Maybe all the registries that are currently smaller and unrepresented...Weser-Ems, RPSI and maybe even Hannover pony could get together and sponsor an open class...maybe? I agree that something has to be done as I would not make such a long trip with my ponies and not have an appropriate class to show in.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 28, 2007, 11:34 AM

OK, I stand corrected...but then why ARE there so few entries??? Can anyone inform me of what the largest class you've encountered has been? DAD is so prestigious, I would have thought it's have the largest class of sportponies. How are the numbers on the west coast and in Canada? Better that the east, maybe?

goodpony

Oct. 28, 2007, 12:36 PM

I can only speak for the shows we've attended here in Northern California...the largest pony only classes have around five entries and the smallest two. The open classes where the ponies compete against horses have as many as 15 in the filly/mare classes and about half that for Colt/Stallion classes. Last season our then yearling colt qualified for the Colt Championship in the Horse Division and there were about 10 or 15 Stallions/Colts shown. His mother qualified for the Regional Championships in 2005 in the open division.

This season we also attended our regional breed show where we saw 18 entries for the M & M which I understand was larger than the turn out for Devon. Happy to say our Connemara Stallion took "Best in Show" under Judge Linda Impey, UK. (president of the British Pony Society)There were also around 25 entries for the Connemara Sections.

not again

Oct. 28, 2007, 01:26 PM

The Star Search classes in Canada are well attended and draw high quality ponies. Nova Scotia had a large attendance and the winner is definitely going to Toronto next month.

DownYonder

Oct. 28, 2007, 01:39 PM

The IBC classes ( Georgia Grand, CLeveland Bay, ASPR) at a competition like DAD are sponsored through the association, IE they pay a fee to have the class included..

I believe the fee to sponsor an IBC at DAD is $500 - at least, that is the figure I heard a few years ago. It's hard for a small organization to put up that kind of money, esp. for a show that is only feasible for people in the immediate area and that might attract only a few entries for the class.

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 28, 2007, 02:21 PM

Pwynn, you raise alot of good points...

In 2006 I think there were 6 in the ASPR class at Devon.

Advertising monies? what advertising monies, we spent those towards the entries too so there will be no advertising :) lol

I believe that I can speak for many ASP breeders when i say that the monies necessary to promote young stock ( the "get out there and DO it factor") have already been totally spent maintaining their stallion's careers / and or advertising...

I live in perhaps the biggest pony region in the east... Speaking in reference to the Hunter breeding ponies merely as a comparison point( and Hunter pony breeding IS extremely well established here) I see some other points that might need considered..

1. With the exception of a "Big Few" ( Devon, Culpepper, Warrenton, etc) even the hunter pony breeding is not always so well attended.. Referring to a Sportpony breeder's dilemma, is it better to be a big fish in a small pond, or compete with the horses and be a medium fish in a big pond?

2. How does an association justify investing in competition that is won by default, and does not necessarily represent the "cream" of its directives? How does this affect the Association's "image"? (another argument for open competition with outside sponsorship)

I am sure I will think of more later , but I have to go help hubby with fencing...

Tiki

Oct. 28, 2007, 04:39 PM

I was going to put one of mine in the ISR Sport Ponies class this year, but I ran into some major truck repair issues and major vet bills and couldn't afford to bring her. By the time all is said and done, with entry fees, stall fees, hotel, fuel, food, tolls, etc. it costs around $500-$700 for one class. Granted, if you bring more horses, and enter more classes, the only additional fees are the entry fees and USEF fees, but it's pretty darn expensive for one class. I'm hoping to bring at least 2 next year for that class. I hope the registry continues to sponsor it when there was only one entry this year.

TWF

Oct. 30, 2007, 12:25 PM

Dressage at Devon 2007
Results
IBC - Westfalen
Judge - Verbeek Von-Rooy
Popeye USDF Prospects In-Hand 80.900 80.900% 1st place

Great American/USDF Stallion Championship East Coast Final
Judges Van Daele, (M) & Mandi
Popeye USDF DSHB Stock In-Hand 158.40 79.200% Reserve Champion

Popeye - FS Pour l'Amour – Night Star I – Nobel - the 14.1 1/2 H Bay 2002 Westfalen German Riding Pony Stallion showed in the open classes against horses in the USDF Finals. In the Wesfalen IBC class, he took an impressive first place with a score over 80%.

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 30, 2007, 01:51 PM

This judge absolutely loved Popeye, only a few of Iron Spring's entries recieved a higher score all week..

However, Popeye is imported and does not inspire the average American breeder to go out and spend "big bucks" competing their homebred Sportpony offspring ...except to use him as a sire.

By examining his individual situation, I do not think cost is an issue for Popeye, and he will continue to do well in open in hand competition as he has already proven.

Those whose Pony breeding programs must support their offspring's careers are still stuck with the same disproportions of value of pony to costs of promotion..

goodpony

Oct. 30, 2007, 02:26 PM

ise@ssl

Oct. 30, 2007, 04:33 PM

This is not an advertisement - but I own Popeye and purchased him as an unstarted 2 yo. I went to Germany to look for some GRP mares and ended up buying him. I did leave him there for 1 1/2 years to train because it was about 1/2 the cost of doing that here and he tested in Germany only because the test here was cancelled last year. Any stallion is an investment but we take pride in the fact that we brought him up from an untrained kid - just the way we do the ponies we breed here on our farm. I also believe we have great ponies being bred here in the US that are going to start to make a bigger and bigger showing over the next few years. We see them at our inspections and following some of the other sportpony breeders and their efforts around the US - and using their stallions on our mares. Our main focus for importing him was to bring more GRP bloodlines into the US to offer to the many pony mares owners (including us!). Our investment in Popeye is comparable to any other pony stallion owners investment in their ponies. So I'm not understanding MagicRose comment - "that cost is not an issue for Popeye". We have to spend money on his training and put time into it ourselves - the same way we do for the pony fillies/mares and geldings we have here on our farm. With more expected next year.

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 30, 2007, 04:45 PM

How much value do we place on Led Wins? Is it really the place for making breeding decisions? Obviously it is the place for showcasing offspring and production....but how much value do you place on actual in hand wins? What about demonstrated performance records or a offspring records. Just curious.

Personally, we are concentrating on competing Hot Shot( age 4) under saddle, and since we are AT the show......we compete in hand.

For younger stallions who do not have offspring yet competing under saddle, seeing the offspring at DSHB shows is way for breeder's to somewhat gage overall conformation and gaits that a stallion is passing along. Granted, some stallions do have access to very special mares and while I do not need to see a superstar in hand, I do like to see the offspring and see the consistancies the sire is producing. DSHB CAN push a stallion's career along, I can think of at least one sire (but not a pony) who probably got over 100 breedings on his own and his first offspring's DSHB careers. I do not think this accomplishment would be very easy to duplicate with a pony.

ise@ssl

Oct. 30, 2007, 05:15 PM

We certainly agree that performance should be a requirement. As far as offspring - younger stallions just don't have them yet! We supported the performance aspect to train Popeye for the 30 day testing and like other ISR approved pony stallions the results are another factor for mare owners to consider in their decision making process. Because it tests the ponies in Dressage, Jumping and Cross country - it does provide very good information in 3 different disciplines. And about half the scores relate to temperament and rideability so that's very helpful - similar to the scores the horse stallions receive for the 100 Day test. Ongoing undersaddle training and competition is what we train all of our ponies for so we don't do very much in-hand with the mares and foals. Just gets too costly.

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 30, 2007, 05:25 PM

So I'm not understanding MagicRose comment - "that cost is not an issue for Popeye". We have to spend money on his training and put time into it ourselves - the same way we do for the pony fillies/mares and geldings we have here on our farm. With more expected next year.

Sorry Ilona, that may not have come out like it was intended... What I meant was that it appears that you have a well thought out long term plan, and are well aware of the costs that will be and have been involved, and are willing to absorb those costs to make it work.

Dalriada

Oct. 30, 2007, 05:33 PM

In Ontario the largest class I've been in was last October at the Harvest Festival - 18 in the Sport Pony 3 & Over Mares and Geldings. 15 in the Under Saddle class. This was a 2 judge show - one for Hunter type and one for Dressage type.

My 12 year old mare (oldest in the class) was 9th Hunter type (under Bucky Reynolds) and 1st Dressage type (under Lorraine Stubbs). We didn't place in the under saddle class as she was an Endurance pony faking it as a Hunter pony just to fill the class.

The largest 2 & Under class I have seen was 10 entries, again at a different show last year.

We've been showing Sport Ponies since 2004. There are a couple of small fairs that have been having Open Hunter Type Pony classes longer than that.

So while Sport Ponies are relatively new in Ontario (first ASPR inspection was May 2004), the shows are going pretty strong and getting stronger every year.

Last year with the Star Search there were 7 qualifying shows including the NEWPA show in NY. This year for the Star Search there were 12 qualifying shows including NEWPA and the show in NS. I know many more shows are petitioning to be added to the roster of qualifying shows for 2008's Star Search.

Why should Star Search add Devon to the roster? What's the drawing card for CANADIAN exhibitors???

Coryg

Oct. 30, 2007, 08:36 PM

I am fairly new to ponies and have been trying to do the research on the potential of the market. I think sport ponies in dressage are great and I think they should be promoted more. I would love to see a bigger tournout in the breed shows as well as under saddle.
I am the owner of Winsom Courtjester, the winner of the ASPR class at Devon. I was expecting a much bigger class than just 3. I plan to show her next year, if she is not sold, in materiale as well as in hand classes. I think the only way to create interest in the ponies is to get them out, and by getting them out, the interest in the classes will increase. I know Fox Cry Nicodemus and Hot Shot both got a lot of buzz going with their appearances. People cant help but cheer for the little guys!
I think one of the main reasons for the poor turnout in pony classes is the time lag. I may be wrong, but I see that there are a number of breeders out there producing high quality ponies, but the majority of the offspring are still quite young and few have owners who are willing to shell out the money to take them to breed shows. Breed shows are a big marketing aspect to warmblood breeders because it ads value to the young horse, and also promotes the stallion. In the pony world, it doesnt give you much advantage.
Lastly, I think the pony breeders/owners should try to get together and think of some strategies. I think a great idea which may work here on the east coast is to gather a team of dressage ponies to get together and travel to the same shows in a given area. I think when you see one pony at a show it is fun to watch and cheer for, but everyone thinks its that its the rare pony that can make it at shows with the big boys. If you had a group of ponies, say 4 or 5, that showed up at a series of shows and all did well representing the breed and sport you would start to get more people believing in what they are capable of...

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 30, 2007, 08:36 PM

Why should Star Search add Devon to the roster? What's the drawing card for CANADIAN exhibitors???

When I was approached last year and asked to participate in the Star Search Challenge, I was told it is open to US as well as Canadian breds, and since there is limited "sportpony" competition also in the US, it would give Canadian exhibitors who wish to compete another qualifier AND another (serious) venue to showcase their ponies. I know of many US horseman who do and have travelled to the Royal Winter Festival from our area in the past, and might be interested to do so again. IMHO Devon ( either DAD or Devon Fair) is a venue of similar caliber and attracts top horses from all over the country..

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 30, 2007, 09:23 PM

Cory, It was great seeing your girl at DAD and the other DSHB shows this year.
I think one of the main reasons for the poor turnout in pony classes is the time lag. I may be wrong, but I see that there are a number of breeders out there producing high quality ponies, but the majority of the offspring are still quite young and few have owners who are willing to shell out the money to take them to breed shows. Breed shows are a big marketing aspect to warmblood breeders because it ads value to the young horse, and also promotes the stallion. In the pony world, it doesnt give you much advantage.
I totally agree with this statement. Last year there seemed to be more entries at EVERY show in the ASPR classes. I think some breeders TRIED to give it a chance but were a bit overwhelmed with the costs ( and work) involved for no return.

Lastly, I think the pony breeders/owners should try to get together and think of some strategies.

I hope this is why we are all here!! Elly Schobel wrote in another thread about a the possibility of a "Top Pony" award at the Markel Young Horse Championships... all of these things are a start...

Coryg

Oct. 30, 2007, 09:28 PM

Wendy,
I think that a top pony award is a great idea, and I am planning on becoming more and more involved with ponies as a trainer once I graduate college. Being 5'1" it couldnt be a more perfect fit. Goes to show not everyone outgrows ponies! Winsom is doing great under saddle already and I cant wait to show her next year under saddle if I still have her. We will hopefully see you (and many more ponies) at Fair Hill and Devon again next year! Let me know what you guys are cooking up and I would be more than happy to help in any way I can.

Cory

elly

Oct. 30, 2007, 10:28 PM

Hi guys -

Wonderful comments - great to know, that there are so many interested breeders of sportponies ( US and German bred), who are willing and ready to lend each other a helping hand. Cory - your little girl was REALLY impressive in the ASPR class at Devon - it will be fun to watch you in Materiale next year !

As Wendy mentioned, I did email Mary Phelps about a Top Pony Award at the USEF Markel National Championship - she thought it was a great idea - let's hope it will become reality.

The sport pony program will catch on, sooner rather then later - I will just keep coming into the ring with the Warmbloods until there are enough ponies to fill their own classes.

............and honestly, I am not trying to make a huge point here - I am just having sooooooooo much fun with this pint size superstar !

Elly

pwynnnorman

Oct. 31, 2007, 08:01 AM

I think when you see one pony at a show it is fun to watch and cheer for, but everyone thinks its that its the rare pony that can make it at shows with the big boys. If you had a group of ponies, say 4 or 5, that showed up at a series of shows and all did well representing the breed and sport you would start to get more people believing in what they are capable of...

I think that is SUCH a great observation and great idea. I don't do local breed classes because I don't feel it's worth the effort (and I AM lazy as can be--I'll bring ponies to a show but not show them just because they need to get out but I don't want to be bothered to do all the fussy stuff just for a local show), but if a group went to, say, Littlewood, HITS or WEF or Fox Lea--any place where the effort wouldn't be just "preaching to the choir"--I'd go in a heartbeat.

Indeed, if there were one trainer out there willing to gather us up, so-to-speak, I think a lot could be worked out--and not just with Florida breeders. One dressage trainer or one h-j trainer (to, perhaps, make a pony jumper splash) or one driving trainer (granted, I think I know one of those!) could do an awful lot for getting more ponies out there because that centralization would allow for sharing. Take driving, for example. I have a pony that could go out and wow folks in pleasure driving now and move on to other things later--and I'd BET that a lot of other folks here have similar young ponies, right? But I don't want to buy a show cart just for a temporary phase in his development. For pleasure driving, couldn't one share?

Same thing with a pony rider or a small adult dressage rider: in hunters, good catch riders are inundated with rides sometimes. For a pony doing intro, training or even first level (for the straightforward type), would it be so impossible to use a "catch" rider for the day or weekend ("catch" as in a small trainer or adult)? I know that in dressage, a catch ride may not result in the win, but does that (winning) HAVE to be the point? Being seen might be an even better point. And it's certainly possible with jumper divisions, especially NON-pony-restricted (so adults can ride). And for both, show management allowing, it might even be possible to ship in and/or share stalls. I'd be willing--and I suspect others might be, too--to put up ponies temporarily who are showing in the area (to avoid stabling fees).

And what an impression it would make, both for the rider AND for the ponies who'd show up in force! Imagine one ambitious rider with FIVE entries in a level 1 jumper class--all sportponies? Imagine a co-op that invests in, say, half a dozen coolers which go to every competition with the group of ponies, each cooler (or saddle pad? or blanket?) with a really noticeable logo saying "Sport Pony Co-op" of some such thing and a trainer with a pocket full of business cards featuring a website URL? That's promotion, people! (And it'd also be a lot more fun, IMO.)

Izthatrt

Nov. 1, 2007, 02:44 PM

Its so great to see a response to this . I love the idea of the material classes, but at my height, I really would need to find a good catchrider. Also, what criteria as far as breeding would be acceptable for an "Open" sport pony class? Would it have to be one of the recognized "Sport pony" breeds, or would other ones be eligible? At this point I haven't gotten Sport Pony papers on my stallion, even though he was the sire of one of the Sport pony winners at DAD a few yrs. ago. I have thought about it, but the lack of entries at venues like DAD, and the lack of "sport pony" classes have certainly not made it attractive enough for me to pursue bothering with papering him w/any sport pony association.

MagicRoseFarm

Nov. 1, 2007, 04:52 PM

I think criteria for Open "Sportpony" competition a good starting point might be

any pony registered with a Sportpony association that is USDF DECLARED to be sportpony

OR (for unregistered or purebred other breed ponies) holding a permanent USEF pony measurement card.

this would allow unregistered ponies to compete, and would not limit breeding stock that is borderline to measure,while encouraging registration/inspection/pedigree documentation for younger prospects who MIGHT be future sportpony breeding stock.

hluing

Nov. 1, 2007, 07:39 PM

MagicRoseFarm

Nov. 1, 2007, 09:15 PM

Magicrose...well I have to disagree with your criteria. The whole reason I would need and open pony class is my breed registry (Weser-Ems) is still too small in the US for them to justify starting a USDF award. How about just a list of approved pony breeds with papers...or even better pony breed or pony height? I;d say if its open...the more open the better!

I basically just said, a list of approved SPORTPONY breeds OR pony Height...

I did not know Weser-Em is not recognized by the USDF ,maybe Weser-Em breeders need to band together and get it recognized so you can enjoy having IBC classes as well.... My only intention is to have the USDF involved to support a national DSHB system for ponies.

My statement about declaration with the USDF was to DISinclude sportpony approved full bred Horse stallions and mares who are oversized and USDF declare their "horse" breed... ( but include their pony offspring)

EqTrainer

Nov. 1, 2007, 09:29 PM

Regarding catch riding for ponies at shows, I think my working student would do this. She currently has a very nice pony that she is training and will start showing soon. PM me if anyone has a show schedule they'd like to consider. We are in the Southeast.

MagicRoseFarm

Nov. 2, 2007, 02:00 PM

Ok, It is obvious we all want to draw more attention to the sportpony so here is my loatest effort.
I have put together a demo at the Equine Affaire in MASS on Thursday November 8th at 3 PM in the Main Coliseum following the Nona Garson Show jumping Clinic,,, I HOPE THAT ANYONE AVAILABLE WILL BE THERE TO CHEER US ON...

It was difficult when I began this to get volunteers to put their ponies in the demos,,, There is NO FEE TO PARTICIPATE, but it takes time, dedication, and hard work. This does create interest and reaches the most basic level horse industry, but everything begins with education.

to give everyone an idea, I have included the narration minus the specific horse and human names, so there is no bragging or advertising involved.

The Sportpony is a pony in the general range of 13.2 hands to 14.2 hands that is athletic and horse-like in appearance and ability. The term "Sportpony" is considered a type, not a particular breed of pony. Sportponies are a riding and competition pony suitable for young riders and small adults.
They are an attractive, well-balanced athlete with round, generous strides, natural, elastic movements and an even, willing and bold temperament. With heart, personality, and intelligence outweighing their smaller stature, they are physically and mentally able to perform with excellence at all levels of the modern disciplines of Dressage, Hunter, Showjumper, Eventer, and both Combined and Pleasure Driving. Many are well rounded and competitive in several disciplines.
Lendon Gray’s mount named Seldom Seen competed nationally at the highest levels of Dressage. The little gray with the big presence was 14.2 hands SMALL. This impressive pony was retired in 1987 at the age of 17, after winning the Grand Prix, Grand Prix Special, and Grand Prix Freestyle at Dressage at Devon that year. A Dressage Superstar, he won many national Year End awards and was inducted into the US Dressage Federation Hall of Fame in 2005.
For the first time in history, the Individual GOLD MEDAL for Eventing at the 2007 Pan American Games was earned by the now famous sportpony Theodore O’Connor who jumps perfect rounds over Cross Country and Stadium Courses where the fences are bigger than he is tall! “Teddy’s” major accomplishments in open competition against full sized horses demonstrate many of the Sportpony’s numerous attributes.
Much is possible in a tidy package.
The driving pair with us today, named AAAAAA and BBBBBBB, are 4 and 5 year olds of Swedish Gotland origin. They are pulling a Kuhnle Marathon vehicle that is used in combined driving events. XXXX, the sorrel colored gelding, has been employed as a lesson mount for the past year. His kind, unflappable nature and love of children also makes him an incredible vaulting partner.
Breeders interested in producing Sportponies are using everything from Welsh to Connemara to Arabian to Thoroughbred and a significant amount of Warmblood and Sporthorse ancestry in their breeding programs and pedigrees. Examples of this cross breeding for desired characteristics are evident in our two youngest ponies, XXXX and YYYYYY. Both of these handsome boys are sired by the RRRRRRRRRR, a talented jumper who scored a 7 at his RPSI Sportpony inspection and whose bloodlines include 20?? Hall of Fame _____ ______ Award winning stallion JJJJJJJJJ.

Our weanling colt XXXXXXX is a buckskin dun destined to be an easy favorite with his looks, conformation and personality. Winning bloodlines on both sides of his pedigree assure that he is headed for an exceptional future.

The bay Sportpony with us named YYYYYYY should excel in any discipline. His dam is descended from the same bloodlines as the outstanding triathlon winner and popular stud QQQQ and PPPPPPP, also both winners of Connemara Hall of Fame Performance Awards in 19?? and 19?? respectively. Easy to train, kind and intelligent, YYYYYY will start his show season in hand in the spring.

Because of the growing demands for ponies in modern sport, there are a number of Sport Pony Associations in North America, some offering a considerable number of licensed and performance tested stallions and highly graded mares. Breeding Stock is scored on type, conformation, and movement, then evaluated under saddle, jumping and general impression. Stallions and mares must complete performance testing and proof of quality offspring before receiving their final approvals as breeding stock. These standards are in place to assist breeders in improving their future breeding programs.

The chestnut 4-year-old Stallion with us today named ZZZZZZZ, was inspected by the _______ ________ Registry and attained his Stallion breeding license in October 20??.
ZZZZZZZ achieved an overall score of 7.7 with the prestigious score of 8.2 on his gaits and elasticity earning the title of First Premium Stallion. His sire is the Welsh Mountain bred stallion MMMMMMM. His dam is the Hanoverian Mare NNNNNNNN, whose family includes world-class competitors including the Olympic Jumper GGGGGGGGG and Hunter Hall of Famer, KKKKK. ZZZZZZZZZZ has been Champion or High Score Sportpony at several _________ _________ Breeding competitions and is doing very well under saddle. For the second consecutive year he holds the USDF Year End Title of ________ ________ Champion. At the prestigious ______ _______ ______ he pinned well, holding his own as the only Sportpony competing in his open classes under saddle against the full sized warmbloods. He is steady, rhythmic, forward and a wonderful willing student showing great aptitude for many disciplines. He is free jumping on a regular basis and proving to have incredible scope over fences as large as four foot. We are excited for his future and looking forward to his first foal crops.

When measured by well-rounded sport talent per pound – Sportponies are perhaps the most incredible equine athletes in the world today. They are generally hardier, more cost efficient, live a longer functional lifespan and, if necessary, are “closer to the ground” than their large counterparts.

We hope you will explore the possibilities of a Sportpony for your next small partner.

We welcome you to the world of the big bold equine in the compact package!

Please visit our Sportpony breeders and owners of XXXX Farm at XXX stalls in the Horse and Farm Exhibit building

goodpony

Nov. 2, 2007, 10:02 PM

Excellent Work...best of luck with your exhibition. I especially like that you have included what sounds like a wonderful variety of sportponies and disciplines. :)

Coryg

Nov. 3, 2007, 01:33 PM

Wow Wendy, that looks very exciting. I wish I could be there to see it.
Back to the catch riding thing...the other problem I see with the sport pony market is the number of riders who are small enough and skilled enough to ride young ponies. I am planning, upon graduation (this May!) to get more involved and become a trainer who specializes in sport ponies. If there are more riders out there available to ride these wonderful little guys it would be more feasible for owners to enter them in shows. I think once people see how much fun we are having riding them they will want to try for themselves. I do think catch riding is difficult, especially on a young horse/pony in dressage. If there are more pony size trainers that can work with the pony a time or two before the show it would work out great....the ideas just keep coming but for now its just talk.Maybe next year I will be able to take a little more action!

Izthatrt

Nov. 3, 2007, 02:38 PM

Well, for now I am solving the "no rider" problem , w/a solution that really seems to be working on the training end...driving! No rush to find a rider right now, and will just have to search the driving forums, look for venues that offer ways to get mine out there. Lets face it there are so few pony jocks available, and when you do find one, their main concentation is the hunters. Somehow I don't think most people are going to catch ride in the dressage ring. In the meantime, I will just have to keep my eyes open for a "small person" that is willing to explore different venues than just the hunter ring.

pwynnnorman

Nov. 3, 2007, 03:21 PM

Actually, that brings up a good question: how small need a dressage pony rider be? You folks with experience in that area, what do you think? Anyone out there with a 13 hander in dressage? How tall is it's rider?

elly

Nov. 3, 2007, 03:43 PM

I am 5'5", Foxcry Nicodemus is all of 12.1 hands - he is, by far, the smallest equine I have ever trained. I have learned not to move too fast, or to try and tighten the girth while in the saddle - otherwise I will knock him off his feet :-)

Elly

goodpony

Nov. 3, 2007, 03:47 PM

hluing

Nov. 3, 2007, 04:29 PM

I am riding my 13.2hh 3 year old GRP mare and having a blast. I am 5'4'' and fit her just fine. She rides like a much bigger pony;)

MagicRoseFarm

Nov. 3, 2007, 04:56 PM

We took Hot Shot to Fair Hill for the 4 year old FEI and the materiale, it was to be only his second show under saddle, My trainer /rider got sick, and Hot Shot was already at the show soo,,,, Stacy Wendklos (whom most of you know as RIVA) catch rode his FEI 4 year old class for me and did a WONDERFUL job. She had a 20 minute session with him the night before her classes , and competed first thing SUnday AM... He got distracted half way through ( stallions at the end of breeding season!!the first time away from home after breeding)) and was a bit tense for a bit and still scored a 5.9 ( under the toughest scoring at a DSHB show for the year for our region) ... It was an extremely positive experience for him... I would not heistate to do it again, put in the same situation. Sarah ( 4'11" 90 LBS age 25 - pony pilot extrordinaire!) , who jumps him at home rode him in the materiale.

There ARE riders out there who CAN pull this off ...

EqTrainer

Nov. 3, 2007, 06:43 PM

My working student is 5'7" with a very short upper body and longer legs. She looks fine and is effective on her 14 `1/2 h pony. I should add tho' that Po is very big bodied.

I am two inches taller than her, all in the leg, and cannot ride the Po effectively. My knee is just down too far.

A Mouse For Me

Nov. 3, 2007, 07:51 PM

I love reading all of this enthusiasm for sport ponies. I'm not a breeder myself, just an avid pony fan. In the future I would love to specialize as a trainer of sport ponies, since I am quite petite (5' 3"), and it's nice to see that they seem to be becoming more popular. As a dressage rider, I was always jealous to see the hunter people getting to have all the fun. :)

cottagefarm

Nov. 3, 2007, 08:18 PM

Great thread and great to know there are so many people passionate about ponies.
I am 5' 4" and have broken ponies from 12 hands up for all most english disciplines. I also competed ponies as a mere youngster, many moons ago:lol:
in jumpers , eventing and dressage .Now I'm back where I began with the pones. So much fun!
I just mentioned on another list that I think the kids here specialize in a discipline way too soon, but that's how most of the barns are set up over here.
i would love to see more kids eventing doing dressage or jumpers but they need to have (kid) friendly venues to persue this . Part of the fun of riding when you are a kid is having other kids around that feel the same way as you and right now that only seems to be the hunter barns and even with that it seems to be what the parents want to be part of the "in crowd".
Thats what I see in this area anyway.
where are the kids that just want to be at the barn all day until the dragged away kicking and screaming?
We need someone to buy these ponies!

Jm lil' o'l Opinion.

Sally

pwynnnorman

Nov. 4, 2007, 07:14 AM

Coryg

Nov. 4, 2007, 07:30 AM

Generic advertising can be very effective, and would not be terribly expensive if everyone took part. Say for example: we pony people got together and ran an ad in some magazines that included photos of a few top ponies that are doing very well in competition and came up with a catchy slogan that was very general and addressed some of the reasons why all of us here love poines. Perhaps include quotes from big name trainers why ponies are so great. Im thinking maybe magazines like Dressage Today, Practical Horseman, COTH and others that get out to a wide audience. If you were going to run these ads however there needs to be a contact that people can go to in order to learn more. That could be a website behind the ad campaign, perhaps with links to all the contributors websites and some important sport pony sites. The response to these ads aims at getting more people interested in ponies in general, and that would benefit everyone from stallion owners, to breeders selling offspring, and even those looking for sponsorship to further a talented ponies career... just my BUAD 471 class taking effect, I new it would be useful!

exvet

Nov. 4, 2007, 08:37 AM

I think another thing to keep in mind is the economy. I'm convinced that as things continue to go south, horse lovers will re-evaluate more seriously just what they really need to have in a "horse," and more will decide that it's more economical and just as pleasurable to enjoy a pony instead.

More economical as opposed to what? A horse? I'm sorry but I've (as usual) followed this thread though "I don't belong" and realize and know that the majority of you "expect" that these FEI prospects [ponies] should be bringing the same dollar as their taller counterparts. How does that make ponies more economical? And please don't tell me that their tack, feed, etc cost less. I own 7 here, plus one horse (8 total) and my 16.3 swedish doesn't eat or cost more to keep than my 7 pony-sized and pony breed critters (ranging from 14-15 hands). For example I ride in the same $3000 saddle (well that's what it costs now if I were to purchase it new) whether it's on the big warmblood or my 14.1 hand welsh cob. Shoes cost the same....oh yeah some of mine don't require shoes but the one who just won third level at the recognized show yesterday does as do a few of my others. To campaign and show them costs the same. To train them, unless you're like me and do it yourself, costs the same.

On your other point I do agree that you'll have an easier time convincing small adults to "go pony" over convincing kids to "go dressage" but I think those of us (adult amateurs on a budget) surveying the economic climate will go to other smaller horse breeds than this machine you're trying to create, the FEI warmblood pony or whatever. Call it sportpony but a few of you here have been spinning the yarn that if it ain't GRP it ain't cuttin' it. So I would recommend your campaign cater to the rich and famous and short statured 'cause those really on a budget will listen and watch me and see you can do it on a pony breed for less - maybe not GRP or one of the other "worthies" but on something that those outside of "this" circle typically accept as a sport pony. :eek:

Tamara in TN

Nov. 4, 2007, 08:59 AM

[QUOTE]

looks to me like a "sport(ing) horse" does first field foxhunting....and a "sport(ing) pony" should be able to pull off the same thing or at least manage the hilltoppers....or pull a light carriage or do dressage _if he had to_ :winkgrin:

but the horse should be uphill and forward and light and willing....these things have never been limitied by ones pedigree only enhanced....

if people don't make the whole show about dressaggy (because most folks don't consider that a "sport" anyway) and the "sport pony " future would might look a little brighter....

it should be better to say "here is my dressage pony" and over here is my "sport pony", you know the one we actually ride out side the ring and do stuff with :) like foxhunt and hill top and (gasp) trail ride"

the sport pony folks intentionally exclude the "unworthy" to the detriment of themselves....if we used the UK as an example....I certainly consider the heavyweight hunters as sport horses....here they'd be laughed out of the ring...and poo poo-ed loudly....

folks, it's not the PAPERS that make your animal a "sport" horse/pony useful and sellable but what you actually do with them....

Tamara in TN

MagicRoseFarm

Nov. 4, 2007, 09:10 AM

Call it sportpony but a few of you here have been spinning the yarn that if it ain't GRP it ain't cuttin' it.

And this WILL become a problem , so many have been so incredibly and loudly vocal over the years with " Your warmblood aint good enough if it did not come from Europe" . The problem is NOT that we do not produce quality.

Here is a whole different ball of wax. Ok, so the european countries have a FEW years on us in the pony breed developement, maybe 20 years? And some Pony breeders here have this much mileage themselves. MANY MANY of Europe's star ponies are F1 generations!

I honestly think the US has and will have AS GOOD OR BETTER ponies. We have had an INCREDIBLE market for Extreme ponies for many many years in the hunter world. We have been crossbreeding in that market for a long time. Use this knowledge to our advantage.

We need to be very careful NOT to build or trap ourselves into a "promotional" program that encourages buying overseas.

WHen you speak of your efforts, speak of American Riding Ponies..they can STILL be OF __________( Weser-EM, Dutch, Hanover) ORIGIN or BLOODLINE

While the sportpony market is in this "infancy" please learn from the mistakes made in the past ,. and give credit where credit is due. If your breeding decision is made by an American, call it American. In 10 years you will be damn glad you did.

exvet

Nov. 4, 2007, 09:22 AM

folks, it's not the PAPERS that make your animal a "sport" horse/pony useful and sellable but what you actually do with them....

Hey "T", we both know that dressage is my discipline of choice; but, we also should both know that my sport ponies who are also dressage ponies do much more than just dressage. It's the dressage stuff though that I'm most proud of due to the degree of difficulty - ie, the fact that it's a challenge to keep this aging body flexible, maintain coordination, and continue to learn knew things everyday. Don't crash on the dressage just 'cause you don't cotton to it. There are a few who are of the blood that I know do jump, drive, etc; so, many do prove that they are capable and fit the definition of "sport" pony or horse, whatever the case might be, even though, like me, the breeders/owners/riders prefer dressage.

My point, particularly in using the "unworthy" class as an example, is that the saying or claim [here] that the sport ponies are less expensive is out of line, particularly when the same people have been griping about these "true" sport ponies being worth 5 figures or more and the "horse" people not recognizing it. I'm not saying that they aren't worth it; but, what I am saying is don't claim something that it's not when in the next breath you're going to ask $15,000 on up for youngstock. I am all for making people aware that these guys are competitive and fun and therefore trying to develop a larger market. I just don't agree that the campaign can use the economic climate to their advantage. No, it's the "unworthies" (like me) who will be able to though :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

Nov. 4, 2007, 10:04 AM

Don't crash on the dressage just 'cause you don't cotton to it. There are a few who are of the blood that I know do jump, drive, etc; so, many do prove that they are capable and fit the definition of "sport" pony or horse, whatever the case might be, even though, like me, the breeders/owners/riders prefer dressage.

yabutt.....to market them soley as the "chosen few" for dresssagy excludes a remarkable number of them who have the mental talent to "try" (and a remarkable number of prospective buyers who care less about dressage).... maybe sometimes with out the exact perfect conformations...

pedigrees cannot measure "try"....I'd say that the horse that is willing to "try" the big brushy cross country course in the middle of December and not plant the rider in the ground also has the "try" to pull a half pass right down the long side.....and the conditioning of one makes them better for the other....

I'm not saying that they aren't worth it; but, what I am saying is don't claim something that it's not when in the next breath you're going to ask $15,000 on up for youngstock. I am all for making people aware that these guys are competitive and fun and therefore trying to develop a larger market. I just don't agree that the campaign can use the economic climate to their advantage. No, it's the "unworthies" (like me) who will be able to though :winkgrin:

you are exactly correct....the only "cheaper" thing about these guys is the hay intake...however have an owner who thinks every supplement under the sun (and the occasional Santaria chicken head chopping could'nt hurt either )and you have the EXACT same expenses....I know of no one who says " oh yeah I do dresssaggy thru fourth level and the ponies are trained at half price cause they are smaller " :lol::lol:

if I were to take one of the boys and start them foxhunting...when I left here to get to the hunt territories to be "official" I'd be almost 2 hours one way...each time....to expose the colt to <insert> and a full season of that equals just as much dang gas and pepsi/fritos/coffee/painkillers :) as if I were hauling a 2000 lb perch mare....so no savings there....

if I were to train another to drive it is the same amount of hours involved....oh but ponies are smarter says they....yes but says I the muscles on a pony are trained in the same time like a big horse....just because the mind can does not me the body can keep up....

and in all that rambling it brings us back to the mind....the mind is not in the papers...and it is the made that make the animal....the best bred can be fruits and the worst bred can be sharp as tacks...we are on the same page I promise...just wearing different hats...

Tamara in TN

MagicRoseFarm

Nov. 4, 2007, 10:11 AM

I should probably have added this to my prior post but I do not want it missed....

While I do NOT have the abilities to do so myself, I WOULD pay Membership and donate to the AMERICAN RIDING PONY... IF it was a non profit organization for the promotion of American bred ponies for sport.

ADDED: I just registered the domain ... so anyone want to run with the ball?

the fact that the domain names are available PROVES that there is NO cohesive marketing plan for this industry...

pwynnnorman

Nov. 4, 2007, 02:26 PM

but I think those of us (adult amateurs on a budget) surveying the economic climate will go to other smaller horse breeds than this machine you're trying to create, the FEI warmblood pony or whatever.

No, exvet, I think you've made an assumption. I wasn't thinking about the top dollar pony at all. I was thinking about small riders choosing to ride ponies instead of big horses they don't fit that well--in any sport. And in that sense, I do believe ponies are cheaper: they don't need big trailers which in turn need big trucks, they don't need a lot of food, they stay much sounder, they don't often need the kind of farrier work horses do, they learn more quickly and so need fewer professional rides, they tend to know how to take care of themselves and so get into fewer vet-requiring accidents, they don't need huge stalls, they often can live out quite comfortably, they are cheaper to raise and so pre-trained are cheaper to buy, etc., etc. I could go on and on.

pwynnnorman

Nov. 4, 2007, 02:35 PM

If we used something online like Yahoo PageBuilder, anyone can learn it (there's nothing really to learn), go on and add a page with a link to the homepage. There are plenty of templates to use, too. Has anyone taken a look at Yahoo's service or know of similar ones where it would be EASY to maintain a site, perhaps with several folks contributing?

But would we get to bickering again about what images to use, like we ended up doing with the Performance Pony Alliance thing? I'd like to see the most dramatic example of sportponies in each discipline on the home page and then a blurb about the American sportpony industry (it's traits and goals) and then maybe something simple like a two column set up with one column being links to within-the-site pages of photos and videos of ponies doing their stuff (no selling--strictly for illustration and impact: our goal is to convince folks to consider a pony, right? That's what I mean by "illustration and impact".) and the other column for links to breeder sites. Perhaps tying it together at the bottom there could be coming events or a show calendar indicating where a visitor might see sportponies in action.

Just throwing that out without much thought.

erinwillow

Nov. 4, 2007, 03:27 PM

Hi pywnnorman,

We have used the Yahoo service quite effectively. . . pretty inexpensive with a relatively wide array of choices for template and color schemes. . of course, I would LOVE to find more variety. . but, for the most part, Yahoo offers a decent basic web site service.:cool:

Simrat

Nov. 4, 2007, 05:25 PM

Well, for now I am solving the "no rider" problem , w/a solution that really seems to be working on the training end...driving!

This is what I may end up doing next year. At 5'8" plus and average build (not huge, but not a toothpick either), I am a little too large for my 13.3 hand guy right now. He is only 4.5 and still developing. I rode him in a clinic yesterday and watching the video really made me see that.

I might ride him very lightly this winter, but, in reality, he will have a lot of it off. I might even take off his sheet and let him get all woolly, let his bridle path grow out and otherwise "go wild." ;) He has an acre to himself with a little hill, run in shelter and twice daily feed, so he would definitely be taken care of, just not asked to do a whole lot.

I would love to eventually find a good, small rider for him. I don't think that it will happen anytime soon...

exvet

Nov. 4, 2007, 08:06 PM

unbridledoaks

Nov. 4, 2007, 08:41 PM

Well, if I didn't live on the other side of the country and had a conflicting show this year, I would have loved to attended Devon :lol:

I for one am all for the American Ponies, especially Dressage Ponies. We have done quite well with the ponies we have brought into the DSHB ring the past 3 years, and again this year, our one and only we did show, qualified for finals. Sadly, we had a conflicting show, that made Finals not possible this year. I'm hoping to get atleast 3 going in the Dressage Ring next year under saddle, one small, one medium and one large. I may have 3 for the DSHB series. It will be fun, that's for sure!

pwynnnorman

Nov. 5, 2007, 07:35 AM

No, exvet, I think you've made an assumption.

My assumption is based on my experience having had both and competed both but I'm but small potatoes compared to you; so, I guess your set of facts bear more credence than mine.

As for the purchase price I based my ASSumption on y'all's web (for sale) pages and past posts. How many here are forging the way of the "true" Sport Pony in order to sell your youngstock, be it weanlings, yearlings, two year olds, or even unbroken three year olds, for less than $4000? And for the record, let's define "top" pony. I wasn't referring to trained and those with show records. I was referring to the $8000 - $15,000 yearlings actually all based on Blood baby, based on Bloodline du jour or brands or whatever that I've seen some of the posters here asking for their youngstock (ie, untrained). Sorry I can find some pretty awesome deals on [horse] warmbloods, with decent bloodlines at the same age for the same price. No I wasn't just making baseless ASSumptions. As for vet bills and many of the other things you site, I guess again it all depends on one's perspective 'cause it's not my reality at all. Though I don't have your clout, I do walk the talk as well as the walk.

Personally I do think that the capable ponies have been here, and for reasonable prices, just not the training ...........and as for the elite/top ponies, well I think you and I have both pointed out before that the vast majority of the American riding public couldn't ride it even if they wanted to.

Oh, no, exvet--you continue to misinterpret what I'm saying (and, really, one famous horse does not a big potato make). I'm thinking bottom up, not top down. There are a ton of pony people out there doing the sport pony thing and not charging huge prices for what they produce. I don't post on Ponies-L much, but I read the list and that's were I get that impression from--and from emails I get. THIS BB is not representative at all of what's really out there. I get a ton of emails from folks who only have one or two broodmares. Those folks express to me how much they prefer breeding for sport rather than hunter (not in exactly those words). They feel excluded from hunters (where networks of trainers and breeders are hard to crack and where unknown pedigrees aren't even given a chance to prove themselves by selling decently into hands that will show them to the top). These small/one-off breeders feel producing a pony for someone NOT interested in hunters in much more rewarding. They look forward to the process and hope to be involved in the sports themselves. Heck, y'know, I even get PHONE CALLS from folks like that every now and then! It's real, exvet. It's really REAL.

It's those folks and what they produce that, I think, can get more people interested in the sportpony at the (to borrow Snowbird's favorite word) "grassroots" level. I think by showing people what a pony can do--besides hunters--is where the website's value would lie. Two specific messages, actually: there's more out there than hunters and you don't need a big horse to do what you want to do. Doesn't matter what level, doesn't matter what sport. You want to go to the top. OK, buy a pricey pony. But if you just want to really, really enjoy--not struggle to get on it, not struggle to get your leg around it, not struggle to pay for a professional to help you, not worry about making mistakes that'll blow its mind (because, thank goodness, our ponies can figure out when you've made a mistake and not hold it against you like some dumbblood of hyped-up hotblood), yada, yada, yada...

Pitch the idea, exvet, not the elitism! That's what I'm focusing on.

exvet

Nov. 5, 2007, 08:24 AM

Pitch the idea, exvet, not the elitism! That's what I'm focusing on.

I think you should know by now Pwynn that I'm actually on "your" side and typically agree with much of what you have to say as well as your focus. I am one of those that you speak of as well as speak to, at least in essence. I too am on the ponies-L list and while there are many on their who you describe aptly I see a trend not just on this board but there as well. Not one I like or one I agree with but the heavy hitters tend to be the louder of the two if we were to break the "sport" pony people into two groups. In fact the owner of the list rather publicly got on my case for pointing out the difference between the two [groups] when someone asked just how many people are really paying $15,000 on up for ponies (many green and/or untrained and not all hunter) based on the prices we were seeing posted; so, again I base my opinion on observations and experience as well.

I'm sorry but lets get back to this idea that ponies are less expensive to keep. How many boarding places actually charge less for a pony vs. horse? I realize that there are many who may charge extra for "additional" feed or services that a large horse might require but around here you don't exactly get a discount on base board just because it's a pony. My trailer is not made for the big guys but it cost no less than many of those of my friends' who purchase theirs to carry their behemoths (mine's actually an in between size so my swedish fits as does my ponies 'cause I purposely bought one that gave me flexibility but it's not extra tall or extra wide). Blankets, well, they may be what $20 cheaper on average if you compare the pony size to the horse size of the same brand/make?.....but I have yet to "save" money on pony blankets 'cause those little devils are more adept at rearranging their clothing than my horses were/are. Have you purchased a dressage bridle for a pony lately? Now if you did and you saved a bundle was it because of the size of the tack or the quality? The last time I purchased a show worthy pony bridle I spent the same as for my horse sized one - the maker didn't seem to think the difference in the amount of leather was really that much less. And yes, let's discuss vet care. I guess I'm lucky because I haven't really had higher expenses on my horses as compared to my ponies. I know being a vet that I don't charge less just because it's a pony though I will concede that drugs are generally cheaper due to amounts but do most vets pass that on to the client? Not many 'cause you'll find we charge one charge for sedation regardless of the dosage size, now if we have to add more 'cause one "dose" was not enough then yes it gets higher but I've found that sometimes it's the little ones that surprise you and take more.

I too could go on and on too.

I am all for promoting sports ponies and it's not I who is pushing the elitist trend. As I've said before, when I go out there and win I take great delight in letting all who will listen know that my less than $5000 pony breed won over several imports who often cost ten times what I paid. I have no trouble letting everyone know that I'm a total amateur who works full time and still holds their own on the recognized circuit. Frequently on the ponies-L list I'm the one letting others know that it can be done, for less yada, yada, yada. However, I typically get shot down here and there because I am told that I'm the "exception" and not the rule. So who's reality shall we believe?

I'd really like to believe the sport pony people can get it together and grow the market to appeal to all levels. I guess time will tell; but, so far in my end of the world, it's still the imports that are considered "worthy" despite the size of clothing its wears - horse or pony.

pwynnnorman

Nov. 5, 2007, 09:33 AM

Well, exvet, you play a valuable role in doing the devil's advocate thing, too. But I do believe we can make a case for vet, farrier, board, training and other expenses. Of course, not all cases will apply, but many will. But maybe the most powerful selling point is fit and temperament.

But y'know, finding, illustrating and using whatever those selling points are is also something a website can help us focus on and bring out.

So, keep it up, exvet--I appreciate your candor! And I really only skim Ponies-L, so I guess I've missed a lot. Glad you're there to keep those ladies real.

Sassenach

Nov. 5, 2007, 10:58 AM

Wow, I contrast to what you all seem to be experiencing I am having to turn riders away. Ponyclub Moms are sure not afraid to ask if we might be looking for a 'jockey' for our 14.1 hand stallion. I've had everyone from professionals to pony clubers asking for the ride. There aren't many I'd consider necessarily, but they are out there if you are out there too.

I'm 4'10 and 90lbs soaking wet - I love ponies and I love that I can ride pretty much any size without feeling like I'm going to look odd on them.

My riding instructor is 5'1 if that and routinely has 'project' ponies - her current project is a top of the line small who is too cute (strawberry roan with blaze and 4 white high stockings named Strawberry Shortcake) I've been begging to ride her :winkgrin: (I wanna ride a PONY!!)

Miss my ponies and still feel odd riding 15.3++ horses (rode a 17.1 hander built like a tank and I must have looked - and I really did feel! - like a peanut on him).

And then of course there are the bridling issues...:rolleyes:

Just got a call from friends in Ireland who are drafting me to be pony jockey this summer to help ride some new ponies they just bought. :D

Izthatrt

Nov. 6, 2007, 07:46 AM

One thing pony breeders have to deal w/that the horse breeders can easily ignore, is having a case of the 3's...most pony breeders have run into this...11.3..12.3...13.3..not too many ppl breeding the horses care if the horse is 16.2 1/4, that quarter inch on a pony can be very costly for the breeder. And lets face it, size is pretty much a crap shoot sometimes. I think showing these ponies outside the hunter ring will help sell the ones that are NOT top of the line, smalls, med., larges..If that pony that is 13.3 and doing a 3rd level test, or driving, or doing an event and doing well...the $$ is going to be there for it..Put him in the hunter ring against the 14.1 1/2 ponies, even if he does well, the size is going to be an issue for buyers. That is one of the main issues I would love to see sport pony people address. Like Wynn says, its not the size, its the stride.
As for the cost of maintaining ponies..I have to say, I am now feeding 20 ponies on the same budget that was feeding 10 full size horses when I made the switch to ponies about 4 yrs ago. Considering that, and the fact that hay/grain has gone up considerably I can say that ponies ARE cheaper to maintain. I have roughly 30 acres of pasture here, and considering how dry it was this yr. I am lucky to have ponies on that instead of horses. The one big change has been the blacksmith bill! I have the blacksmith here every 2 weeks and we do 4 or 5, at $30.00 for each trim, just having the horses w/only front shoes, to do 4 would have cost me $160.00. Over the course of a yr. that is a very significant amount of $$.

eventmom

Nov. 6, 2007, 07:55 AM

Well, we did our bit for sport ponies this weekend! My 11 year old daughter rides a lovely 13.2 connemara. We had a "fun show" at my place for her trainer. I suspect there were 75 to 100 people here. The pony was awesome! We did a puissance class! Pony pooped out at 3.9. (in the company of horses). He could go higher but he was done. They had already done x-c and stadium courses. Every jump the crowd was cheering him on. My daughter said she felt famous! People were asking all kinds of questions about how that little guy could do such a thing!!! We all spent time talking about Teddy and what ponies are made of. Awesome:) I felt like our pony was a walking advertisement:):)

exvet

Nov. 6, 2007, 08:17 AM

As for the cost of maintaining ponies..I have to say, I am now feeding 20 ponies on the same budget that was feeding 10 full size horses when I made the switch to ponies about 4 yrs ago.

I do agree on the size issues faced in the hunter world that do not seem to be a "real" problem in the sport venues, at least not in general. However, I did see a lovely pony approx. 12 hands at the dressage show this weekend and the child rider's legs were very, very long and looked a bit misproportioned. The general comments I heard were "cute pony, but if it stops quick, watch out." Fortunately the junior rider had a decent seat; but, it was obvious she was there to put miles on a pony to be sold. She didn't fair all that well in her class, pony was above the bit much of the time and somewhat resistant. I'm not sure many adults or children walked away "wanting a pony."

I think this costs in horse/pony keeping depends on where one lives. Here in Arizona, especially in the canyon/desert we have no grass. It's hay all year round. Though I do have my retirees and turnout ornaments barefoot, those that do compete and trail ride heavily have shoes; so, my ponies get the same $80 shoeing that the horses get. Again, I must be the only one who's had "easy" keepers as far as horses with respect to eating and basic shoeing needs. I wouldn't be quite so adamant about my "ponies" costing me the same as my horses except my spouse is one who tracks everything on the financial front. I tried "that" argument about ponies being cheaper and he was quick to point out the reality. Now, when I lived in Missouri with 40 acres and could leave all ponies barefoot then I'd be right there with you but I'm not. Here I don't see a huge difference between the costs. Wish I did though, believe me I wish I did. Yet we're talking as if "our market" has land and everyone keeps their horses at home. Here I could call a dozen boarding stables to get basic board costs and a stall/mare motel w/limited turnout is the same - be it for a 14 hand critter or a 17 hand critter. I also don't get a break on my ONE pony that gets size 1 shoes as opposed to my stallion who wears size 4s. I pay the exact same. The rest of my "ponies" wear size 3's as does my swedish warmblood. Now if I had all 11 hand ponies maybe I could strike up a deal with my farrier; but, I don't. I also don't see FEI pony classes at the shows costing any less than my third level classes. Maybe I need to take ponykeeping class 101 from the rest of you so I could learn how to do it right but since I have much fewer lameness and health issues than many of my counterparts in this locale (be that horse or pony), I think I'll keep doing exactly what I'm doing and realizing (thanks to my spouse) that my hobby which includes competing with/on "ponies" still costs a fortune.