Why would you advertise with these pictures?

[shireluver]

Am I overreacting? This stud is WAY to skinny in my opinion. :no:

http://whistlinwillowsfarm.0catch.com/andy.html

[Kenike]

I don't think you're overreacting. And I certainly wouldn't have used those pictures! That boy needs some weight put on, a good bath, and decent grooming. Among other things that immediately came to mind.....

Some people will do just about anything to gain a buck, won't they?

[ef80]

I think a better question is "Why is he still a stallion? Why are any of their stallions still stallions?" I didn't see anything that warranted any of their stallions still having their jewels.

He is pretty thin though and appears to have just arrived at wherever the pictures were taken. Dig around on the site a bit more, I'm sure everyone can find a thing or two that will make them go 'Hmmm'.

For example - did you also notice that their 1998 TB stallion, Winloc's Nelson is listed on their For Sale page as Skip, a 5 year old TB?

[ChocoMare]

I don't think you are overreacting. I just sucked in my breath when I pulled up that link. :(

[Iron Horse Farm]

OMG! I would expect that picture on the front page of a rescue operation!!!

[Kenike]

I think a better question is "Why is he still a stallion? Why are any of their stallions still stallions?" I didn't see anything that warranted any of their stallions still having their jewels.

yeah, that's pretty much what I was alluding to when I said "among other things."

[JCS]

Oh my!!!

Skinny, WICKED downhill (he's four, but STILL!), muddy, horrible ewe neck, back at the knee (look at that front right leg--it actually appears to be bent backward)...Need I go on? Poor guy!

[gideeupgrl]

I sorry, I am of little knowledge, but is there is something wrong with this.......
"C-C Kayla- Beautiful black percheron mare, 4 y/o, 16H tall, rides and drives, has been used for camp, proven broodmare, just a nice all around mare. "

they might not have bred her, i didnt see any evidence of that, but to be 4 and a proven broodmare would mean she was bred @ 2?

In general, again forgive me, but what does "proven broodmare" mean? and what makes them proven?

ETA: the saddlebred stud too. isnt he a little young to have foals already? but then again on the for sale page he is a 2004 model and on the Saddlebred stud page he is a 2003.......

[shireluver]

I feel so bad for that poor boy. He reminds me of the draft I purchased at an auction for $100.

Here is a link to his picture when we got him

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/9396re2.jpg

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/4534re2.jpg


These are pictures of him in his prime

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/king.jpg

[Iron Horse Farm]

Shireluvr - congrats on your rescue.......he is truly lovely now. And I must tell you that I was just THRILLED to see his "after" pictures were of him doing things that a draft horse should (and not standing in a ring with a dressage saddle on!).

[zinnniaz]

Hey, that farm is near me--- I know of them. Very skinny boy. I hope he is fattening up! :(

[Catalina]

Stallion? (http://whistlinwillowsfarm.0catch.com/skipright.JPG) He has an adorable face and a nice shoulder, but, and I am no conformation guru, his hind end is :eek:. Why would you breed to that?

[shireluver]

Shireluvr - congrats on your rescue.......he is truly lovely now. And I must tell you that I was just THRILLED to see his "after" pictures were of him doing things that a draft horse should (and not standing in a ring with a dressage saddle on!).

Sadly, King passed away in 2005 due to complications of colic just 2 weeks after I placed him in a new home.

His weight was not the only battle I had to fight for this poor boy, he also had the most severe case of scratches my vet had ever seen, that is the reason his legs are shaved.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/ea91.jpg

Those pictures of him logging were taken before I purchased him. He was logged with in Oregon and also was used as a breeding stallion for many years. Through a lot of research I found out his past and a couple of his previous owners. I actually had one lady come visit him who owned one of his daughters.

He was a registered Shire stallion, just a very rare color for the breed.

Someday when it doesn't hurt as bad as it does now I will have to share his whole story and how he became the love of my life and the life of a two-year girl who still talks about him to this day.

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m35/dawnloshbaugh/King213.jpg

I don't like crying at work, and I still feel a lot of guilt for his passing, even though I know it wasn't my fault, or anybody elses for that matter.

[CarouselPony]

I actually sucked in my breath when I saw that poor boy - he's a rack of bones!!!

[DopyDgz]

Skinny is the least of his problems... he looks like he was designed by a committee of blind monkeys!

[JoZ]

The entire site whispers "fugly". Well, that's not exactly accurate.

It doesn't whisper.

[PiaffePlease]

he is supposed to be a Shire!! he looks like an undernourished paint horse. poor guy!

[catknsn]

All I can say is that I am constantly amazed by what people put on the Internet (and then are disgruntled when someone points out how appalling it is). Poor horse.

[goldponies]

Sad :(

[PalominoMorgan]

Mom always said if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So, saying something nice that stud is put together a heck of a lot better than the first paint on the "for sale" page. That was nice, right?

[abrant]

Stallion? (http://whistlinwillowsfarm.0catch.com/skipright.JPG) He has an adorable face and a nice shoulder, but, and I am no conformation guru, his hind end is :eek:. Why would you breed to that?

I actually kind of like him.... as a racing sire. He's standing downhill, that doesn't help. He's got a very slopey croup, which is what I like to see in racehorses, something that can really get under themselves. He's also not post-legged like a lot of thoroughbreds. It's the looooonnnngg back that makes him look unattractive.

He's also a stakes-placed winner of $150k+. He'd make a regional sire.

If he could put that shoulder on his babies, they might be runners... and they could do something after they race.

Damn horse needs those racing plates pulled! Looks painful :/

Says on the sales page they can't get his papers.

You don't need Jockey Club papers to breed a stallion as everything is online these days (though you do need them to enroll in most, if not all, statebred programs.. but these don't seem like the people who would think that carefully about anything). I wonder if he IS who they say... or if there is an interesting story there.

Perhaps his earlier connections would be interested in knowing if he didn't come directly from them??

[ThirdCharm]

You would need his registration number from his papers to get his ownership changed over.... which info the JC will NOT give anyone, including the registered owner. The owner of record has to be the one reporting breedings etc. last time I checked.

Love how they say he'd make a great warmblood stallion if you got him approved.... which you can't without papers! And certainly wouldn't happen with that conformation in any case.... gads.

Jennifer

[ESG]

Skinny is the least of his problems... he looks like he was designed by a committee of blind monkeys!

I think I have some fencing that was done by that same committee! :lol:

[enjoytheride]

Is the TB still wearing racing plates? Would explain his good condition compared to the shire.

[Christa P]

You would need his registration number from his papers to get his ownership changed over.... which info the JC will NOT give anyone, including the registered owner. The owner of record has to be the one reporting breedings etc. last time I checked.

Love how they say he'd make a great warmblood stallion if you got him approved.... which you can't without papers! And certainly wouldn't happen with that conformation in any case.... gads.

Jennifer

Actually any TB that raced comes with the registration number. The number
is the last 2 digits of the year foaled followed by 5 numbers. The tattoo is
a letter showing the year foaled followed by the same 5 numbers as the
registration number. An example from a TB mare I had: Reg. 7820248 and
the tattoo was H20248 with the H for 1978.

So getting the reg. number is easy of you can read the tattoo, though I agree
about the conformation.

Christa P

[jengersnap]

(shivers at the "Shire" stallion) Less emancipated have graced the front pages of rescue sites.

As for the TB, I've a stakes winner and placed in 2 more with $180K+ out of a multiple stakes sire and a stakes placed mare. He's all heart, and he is rightly a gelding, as should be Winloc's Nelson. When your best claim on the page is he has "names behind him like Native Dancer (5 generations), Bold Ruler (5 generations) and Man O War (off the page)", you really don't know what you're standing and probably should be standing it to begin with. His dame is actually a nice producer though. Too bad Skippy here wasn't a mare with papers.

[JCS]

(shivers at the "Shire" stallion) Less emancipated have graced the front pages of rescue sites.


emaciated?

Sorry, I could not resist. :winkgrin:

[jengersnap]

emaciated?

Sorry, I could not resist. :winkgrin:

(laughing) Maybe it was wishful thinking on my part that the horse would be emancipated by someone with a truckload of groceries?

Or it could just be that it's early in the morning and I am on my first cup :yes:

[sporthorsewannabe]

So let me get this straight there is one thinner horse on the whole webpage and you are trying to crusify these people, sounds to me like someone needs to email this to them and get all you people for slander. Sounds like a good plan actually, I'm on it, don't you worry.

[PalominoMorgan]

*flame suit firmly zipped*

Slander is an untruthful oral (spoken) statement about a person that harms the person's reputation or standing in the community. (from http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/85BAB88B-0660-4AB6-A2F5C32E716A6D52)

Carry on. This should turn in to a proper train wreck about now.

[Blacktree]

Did it say that the app stallion had successfully covered his first set of mares already at age 2? Seems pretty young to me. :eek:

shireluver, what your guy had was actually the immune disease Chronic Progressive Lymphedema, or 'CPL'. Several draft breeds can get it. I had a Shire in training that had that a while ago, it was very sad.

Here is some info on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_Progressive_Lymphedema
http://www.intl-pag.org/15/abstracts/PAG15_P05o_607.html
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/elephantitis/about.html
http://www.completerider.com/pasterndermatitis.htm

[sporthorsewannabe]

Using a stallion at the age of 2 is fine on a few mares, I work for a vet he starts using stallions their 2y/o year, so do alot of real horse people, but I am sure none of you would know anything about that would you

[ExJumper]

So let me get this straight there is one thinner horse on the whole webpage and you are trying to crusify these people, sounds to me like someone needs to email this to them and get all you people for slander. Sounds like a good plan actually, I'm on it, don't you worry.

Wow. Do people never learn?

Why do I think that we have found Mrs (or Mr) "Whistlin' Willows Farm" here?

:no: *sigh* :no:

[sporthorsewannabe]

Actually I raise QHs, funny though how many skinny horses I have found on sites people from this forum have posted, isnt it interesting how people in glass houses like to throw stones.

[ExJumper]

Actually I raise QHs, funny though how many skinny horses I have found on sites people from this forum have posted, isnt it interesting how people in glass houses like to throw stones.

My horse is fat and I live in a house made of wood.

[ptownevt]

Well, the only picture still up of the Shire is the head shot.

[sporthorsewannabe]

EXJumper, yours maybe but they several people on here with website links have horses left to be desired, the stallion that is supposed to be so grand on one site has produced nothing for foals and would make a very nice gelding, as well as at least one skinny horse on every persons site who has complained, very interesting.

[ExJumper]

Well, the only picture still up of the Shire is the head shot.

Coincidentally at the same time our new friend started posting...

[Everythingbutwings]

Using a stallion at the age of 2 is fine on a few mares, I work for a vet he starts using stallions their 2y/o year, so do alot of real horse people, but I am sure none of you would know anything about that would you

I don't know what you consider "real" horse people but that's nuts.

[JCS]

EXJumper, yours maybe but they several people on here with website links have horses left to be desired, the stallion that is supposed to be so grand on one site has produced nothing for foals and would make a very nice gelding, as well as at least one skinny horse on every persons site who has complained, very interesting.

I know I shouldn't be feeding the troll, here, but...

The problem isn't JUST that the horse is skinny. Sometimes horses have issues that make it hard to put weight on them, we all know that.

The problem is that he's VERY thin, and has VERY poor conformation, AND is being advertised as a breeding stallion. This horse needs to be gelded and fed, not be breeding mares.

[sporthorsewannabe]

say haven't all of you been posting to, oh my god its a conspirisy!! You all must have something to do with it too!!

[sporthorsewannabe]

JCS- I;m not saying he is not thin, I never said that but for all you know these people could have just gotten him in, he could have been taken back from someone else, he could have been sick, a whole number of could ofs, there are several nice horses on that site that are in good weight.

[Trixie]

I concur with JCS and ETBW - only weirdos breed their two years olds. It isn't done. Even if its physically possible, those horses aren't proven yet and that would be IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDING PRACTICES.

From this farm's sale page:

Skip- Stunning 9 y/o TB stallion, was told he rides well but we have not ridden him, lunges well- have lunged him over some fences as well. We would keep him if we could get papers on him as a breeding stallion but so far no luck. Big, bold, beautiful stallion, would make someone a nice WB stallion if they wanted to get him approved or could make a nice sport horse for someone.

Now, please explain to me how exactly a TB stallion is going to make someone a nice WB stallion? And why is he listed for sale and on your stallion page? From what I can tell it looks to be the same horse.

This HAS to be a joke. This farm is entirely too unprofessional to ever be taken seriously.

[JCS]

JCS- I;m not saying he is not thin, I never said that but for all you know these people could have just gotten him in, he could have been taken back from someone else, he could have been sick, a whole number of could ofs, there are several nice horses on that site that are in good weight.

Right, but that's the whole point. If they just got him in, he's skinny, and maybe sick...

Even aside from the atrocious conformation that should not be bred on, shouldn't they want to clean him up and fatten him up and get him healthy before trying to breed him/advertise him? Seriously.

[ChocoMare]

JCS- I;m not saying he is not thin, I never said that but for all you know these people could have just gotten him in, he could have been taken back from someone else, he could have been sick, a whole number of could ofs, there are several nice horses on that site that are in good weight.

Yes, all those things might just be true.

Sooooo, if the owners desire to maintain their good reputation, putting forth quality animals before the public's eye, why would they deliberately damage said reputation by posting that boy?

Wait a few months for his condition to improve....gain weight, muscle, tone and shine. Be groomed properly and turned out nicely. Have a show record perhaps...something that shows he's worth the stud fee. THEN advertise him properly.

Alas, their rush to advertise him on their website has done great damage. COTH is not a small world. :no:

[Trixie]

I;m not saying he is not thin, I never said that but for all you know these people could have just gotten him in, he could have been taken back from someone else, he could have been sick, a whole number of could ofs, there are several nice horses on that site that are in good weight.

Um, if he's just been gotten in, or sick, or any number of "of's..." WHY IS HE LISTED AS A BREEDING STALLION AT STUD? Why are they ADVERTISING him in that state?

[sporthorsewannabe]

Trixie-
A tb stallion can easily get WB approved as a sire, I know several that have and have gone on to pruduce several top ranking horses. I would say it is the same horse as it pretty much says that in the listing. Last time I knew these people could advertise a horse for sale and at stud- they did the same with the two stallions below him and no one is saying anything about them....?

[Trixie]

They didn't say would make a nice warmblood sire, they said warmblood stallion.

would make someone a nice WB stallion

One should consider PROOFREADING their site before going public.

But alas, that's arguing semantics when there is so much more that's wrong with this.

[sporthorsewannabe]

Chocomare and JCS, look I am not deffinately not saying they should have ever posted those pictures, and I do not know why the horse is truely thin, he should have been cleaned up and prepared for pictures but we cannot take everyones pictures now can we? My horses are if anything on the fat side but we are going into winter and winters are hard on horses in the Northwest, I'm sure they are in the northeast as well. But as I am sure everyone knows on here people are money hungry, if there is something they think they can make a buck on they will.

[Trixie]

But as I am sure everyone knows on here people are money hungry, if there is something they think they can make a buck on they will.

Isn't that precisely the problem? :eek:

[sporthorsewannabe]

Can someone please help me figure out the "quick reply"?

[sporthorsewannabe]

Trixie I am not disagreeing with you at all but their is one thin horse on the whole site, I am sure there are plenty of other sites much worse with extremely thin horses all around

[Trixie]

But the discussion was about THIS site, and about how THESE horses are not breeding material. Surely there are other examples and COTHers have commented on them in the past.

This farm tried to promote a skinny, ill-conformed stallion as a breeding stallion and speaks of breeding unproven two year olds.

You're trying to make excuses, but the way they've advertised it (to the public) is very telling about their operation. I don't understand why you keep trying to defend them.

They're promoting irresponsible breeding practices left and right.

[PalominoMorgan]

Shame on me for feeding the troll, but could someone PLEASE PM me where you see a skinny horse on my site? LMAO. I fight my easy keepers on their lush pastures all year long. Guess I wasted money on a grazing muzzle after all. Not that it lasted long before my mare "modified" it to her liking anyway.

[catknsn]

The "but LOTS of people do it so therefore it's not so bad" excuse typically does not fly here. Lots of people do lots of bad things, and as many as possible should be called on their bad behavior and encouraged (or forced, when legally possible) to correct it.

The point of the thread is why would you attempt to market an animal in any way that looked so poor, rather than fixing the condition first? I think it's a good question.

[kcmel]

SHW, I think that besides being thin, the issue that these fine COTHers are fired up about is that HE IS NOT A BREEDING QUALITY STALLION! And there is no defense for that. Given the excess number of unwanted horses, to be advertising that horse as a breeding stallion says that the people behind that farm are either A) Completely ignorant or B) Completely irresponsible or C) (my personal favorite) Both.

[Hi Jump]

Pardon me,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I concur with JCS and ETBW - only weirdos breed their two years olds. It isn't done. Even if its physically possible, those horses aren't proven yet and that would be IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDING PRACTICES."

I work with one of the most respected reproductive therionoligists in North America , who is regularly flown to Europe to collect and freeze stallions. I assure you it is done by some of the biggest and highly respected breeding programs in the world. Our warmblood stallions do their keuring in Germany at 2.5 years and are approved as breeding stallions. My own stallions do not have foal crops that young but I assure you, your statement is not creditable in all circumstance.

Synergy Sport Horses, Home to Cotopaxi (Holsteiner stamm 776) and Raffaello (Elite Hanoverian)
http://www.hunterjumperstallions.com

[rescuemom]

SHW, I think that besides being thin, the issue that these fine COTHers are fired up about is that HE IS NOT A BREEDING QUALITY STALLION! And there is no defense for that. Given the excess number of unwanted horses, to be advertising that horse as a breeding stallion says that the people behind that farm are either A) Completely ignorant or B) Completely irresponsible or C) (my personal favorite) Both.

And there are, unfortunately, a lot of both.:(

The pictures have been removed from the linked page, with a message that says new shots are coming soon. You only get a head shot of the sire. His forelock care is not impressive.

[sporthorsewannabe]

What does COTHers mean? I am sorry I am new hear just started reading this board this morning and tought someone had to play devils advocate for these people, I would not personally own any of their horses (well besides the young aphc stallion, lol) but they have some decent quality horses other than the shire stallion. I have not looked at your website PalominoMorgan as you are not one to list it at the end of your post, I am speaking of the people that are listing there website in the post. This is exactly why I do not have a website, I breed my few QH mares, stand only to people I know will promote or take good care of the foals and sell privately. I feel there are far too many horses out there to be overbreeding anyways so I do not feel I should stand my stallion to the public.

[sporthorsewannabe]

RescueMom, is that a headshot of the sire, I thought it was the same stallion

[Erin]

SHWB, we are kind of into full disclosure here. And since you've been threatening me with lawsuits all morning, I think it's only fair to admit that this is YOUR website that is being critiqued here.

[Trixie]

your statement is not creditable in all circumstance.

What about in THIS circumstance?

As I said:
those horses aren't proven yet and that would be IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDING PRACTICES."

Given that these horses have not proven on any level that they should be reproducing - they're certainly not well conformed and it doesn't appear that they've actually had any accomplishments - why exactly would you breed them at 2?

I'll take back the "only weirdos breed their horses at two" and amend it with "the horse should accomplish SOMETHING or otherwise prove that he is acceptable breeding stock prior to being bred, anytime, EVER."

And these horses, from what I can tell on the website, have NOT.

[Catalina]

Trixie-
A tb stallion can easily get WB approved as a sire, I know several that have and have gone on to pruduce several top ranking horses. I would say it is the same horse as it pretty much says that in the listing. Last time I knew these people could advertise a horse for sale and at stud- they did the same with the two stallions below him and no one is saying anything about them....?

From this farm's sale page: Skip- Stunning 9 y/o TB stallion, was told he rides well but we have not ridden him, lunges well- have lunged him over some fences as well. We would keep him if we could get papers on him as a breeding stallion but so far no luck. Big, bold, beautiful stallion, would make someone a nice WB stallion if they wanted to get him approved or could make a nice sport horse for someone.

So, they are selling him because they can't get papers on him so he can be bred? This must be his identical twin brother that is standing at stud:

Winloc's Nelson
1998 Blood bay Thoroughbred stallion, names behind him like Native Dancer, Bold Ruler and Man O War to name a few!! Lovely horse, should produce some nice hunters. Standing 2008 to the public.
2007 Stud Fee: Private Treaty - Contact Anne for details
Credit cards Accepted via Paypal
Fresh Cooled Semen Available
Shipping in Equitainers and Equine Express II Same Day shipping available
Return privileges
Multiple Mare Discount
Live Cover also available
Mare Care Available

:confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

[sporthorsewannabe]

Erin, I have nothing to do with the farm being spoken of, I said I would notify them as they are being shit upon as well as print the items and send them to them.

[sporthorsewannabe]

Catalina, I am pretty sure they are the same horse he must just be listed with his barn name

[SillyHorse]

Erin, I have nothing to do with the farm being spoken of, I said I would notify them as they are being shit upon as well as print the items and send them to them.
Uh huh. Got a bridge you'd like to sell us?

[ExJumper]

Uh huh. Got a bridge you'd like to sell us?

I have some oceanfront property in Colorado for sale, too. (Erin, should I put this in the classified section? :) )

[Everythingbutwings]

A tb stallion can easily get WB approved as a sire

A quality TB stallion, with excellent conformation, who has fabulous movement and who fits the particular WB standards can get approved. I seriously doubt that the sweet looking 9 year old in those photos has two out of the above three.:no:

There are groups out there that will slap "approved" papers on anything with either a womb or a set of doo-dads, though. :lol:

[sporthorsewannabe]

Anyones else have an unreliable internet connection? Anyways last time I knew there address was posted on the bottom of the website, and I think I can fold them up and stick them in an envelope.... Not too hard to do

[Trixie]

Is that supposed to be a threat, or something? :lol: What exactly do you think is going to happen?

[Everythingbutwings]

last time I knew there address was posted on the bottom of the website, and I think I can fold them up and stick them in an envelope

The poor thing's manly package?

[sporthorsewannabe]

Oh and by the way Erin...
Defamation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Slander and libel)• Find out more about navigating Wikipedia and finding information •Jump to: navigation, search

Tort law
Part of the common law series
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

v • d • e

"Slander" and "Libel" redirect here. For other uses, see Slander (disambiguation) and Libel (disambiguation).
For "liable", see Liability.
In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism.

The common law origins of defamation in the torts of slander (harmful statement in a transitory form, especially speech) and libel (harmful statement in a fixed medium, especially writing but also a picture, sign, or electronic broadcast), each of which gives a common law right of action.

"Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel". Libel and slander both require publication. The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, blogging and the like, then it is considered libel.

[Erin]

Erin, I have nothing to do with the farm being spoken of, I said I would notify them as they are being shit upon as well as print the items and send them to them.

No, you told me you were going down to the courthouse yourself. And your email address is listed as the farm's contact on at least one website I found.

[Erin]

Uh, thanks for the Wikipedia link, but since I got an A in Communication Law at Cornell, I'm pretty familiar with all that already, thanks. ;)

[SillyHorse]

I just love how these outraged newbies think you just fell off the turnip truck, Erin. :lol:

[sporthorsewannabe]

Ya know what I give up, my horses are fatty and happy, thats all I need to know, you people are obviously out to crusify these people for one thin horse out of however many are on their site, I am printing off all of this, putting it in an evelope and mailing it to them, the smart ones will stop posting as this is an act of Defamation wether you want to call it slander or Libel. Have fun, and Erin good luck with the lawsuit I hope they will persue.

[Everythingbutwings]

A little coherence, please.

[ExJumper]

Ya know what I give up, my horses are fatty and happy, thats all I need to know, you people are obviously out to crusify these people for one thin horse out of however many are on their site, I am printing off all of this, putting it in an evelope and mailing it to them, the smart ones will stop posting as this is an act of Defamation wether you want to call it slander or Libel. Have fun, and Erin good luck with the lawsuit I hope they will persue.

Does she think she is the first person on the "interweb" to throw those words around? I'd save the postage on the envelope. Especially since, apparently, she would be mailing the letter to HERSELF...

[cholmberg]

Love you Erin! :)

And here I thought my morning was going to be dull. I have been following this
thread since it started and saw the pics and I was -appalled- at the condition of
that shire stallion, and the fact he was a stallion at all. You'd think if someone wanted
stud fees, they wouldn't put up pictures of such skinny horse? The fact that they did not wait until the horse was in good condition to start 'promoting' him speaks volumes.
And if she doesn't like
what COTH is saying. . .what do you think she'll feel like if Fugly does a blog on it?? :eek::winkgrin:
And breeding two year olds? I wouldn't use any vet that was advocating using a two year old as a breeding stud.

[Alice]

...don't leave yet! It was just getting interesting.

Very entertaining.

[Louise]

Um, it's pursue. Are you scared yet, Erin? :lol:

[Trixie]

Mailing it to WHO? Yourself?

Please go finish reading the wikipedia link that you posted... it goes on to explain why there's absolutely no way you'll win this so called lawsuit.

In many legal systems adverse, public statements about legal citizens presented as fact must be proven false to be defamatory or slanderous/libel. Proving adverse, public charachter statements to be true is often the best defense against a prosecution for libel and or defamation. Statements of opinion that cannot be proven true or false will likely need to apply some other kind of defense. The use of the defense of justification has dangers, however; if the defendant libels the plaintiff and then runs the defense of truth and fails, he may be said to have aggravated the harm.

Another important aspect of defamation is the difference between fact and opinion. Statements made as "facts" are frequently actionable defamation. Statements of opinion or pure opinion are not actionable. In order to win damages in a libel case, the plaintiff must first show that the statements were "statements of fact or mixed statements of opinion and fact" and second that these statements were false. Conversely, a typical defense to defamation is that the statements are opinion. One of the major tests to distinguish whether a statement is fact or opinion is whether the statement can be proved true or false in a court of law. If the statement can be proved true or false, then, on that basis, the case will be heard by a jury to determine whether it is true or false. If the statement cannot be proved true or false, the court may dismiss the libel case without it ever going to a jury to find facts in the case.

Oh, and in the future, if you learned to spell, you might be taken more seriously.

[ef80]

Pardon me,
I work with one of the most respected reproductive therionoligists in North America , who is regularly flown to Europe to collect and freeze stallions. I assure you it is done by some of the biggest and highly respected breeding programs in the world. Our warmblood stallions do their keuring in Germany at 2.5 years and are approved as breeding stallions. My own stallions do not have foal crops that young but I assure you, your statement is not creditable in all circumstance.


Bolding added by me for emphasis.

That's why breeding the horses you are working with is not irresponsible. They have been tested and found to be worthy of doing so by a panel of experts. Personally, I wouldn't breed to a stallion without a performance record as well, but those warmbloods that get their certification at 2 and a half have been determined to be of value to the breed as a whole by more people than just the owner - experts infact!

I sincerely believe that all breeds should lock down their registries a bit and have screening for genetic diseases as well as keurings. That way, we can help eliminate defects and better the breeds more efficently.


From the evidence we have here, it would be safe to say that the farm we're talking about is not a quality operation. I am sure they are nice people who love their horses and try to 'do right by them', but they should NOT be breeding any of the animals they have displayed on their website. In addition to poor photographs for their stallions, they hit all of the major red-flags: Unproven Stallions, multiple breeds, non-current photographs, unclear 'type' that they are breeding for, unclear overall goals for the farm.

Additionally, if their stallions were worth standing at stud they wouldn't have them listed on their for-sale page, just mixed in with everyone else. Usually, if you are selling a worthy stud, you have a lead on someone that might be interested in buying him and standing him or someone that will geld him and continue his show career.

It sucks to have to be brutally honest, but it is the people out there breeding the less-than-ideal representatives of their breed that fill up the slaughter pens.

[magicteetango]

Oh look, a little arm chair lawyer. I'm sorry... do they not have an email address (apparently your email address?) I mean surely if you'd like to waste the postage, feel free, but we do live in 2007 now.

The comments made were observations about people's OPINIONS about their web site, and horses' conditions and conformation. It's called a critique, not defamation. No one has said anything that would be untrue. For it to be defamation or slander, it needs to A. be false, and B. be hurting their business. Someone's conformation critiques aren't going to put them out of business, their website looks more like a horse traders' anyhow, it's not as though they appear to have bred any of these horses themselves.

.... the things people will do with their time never cease to amaze me.

[Lisamarie8]

The wannabe came and she saw
It's apparent that she knows nothing of Law
Poked Erin with Sticks
Ran off in a snit
Should Feed that Shire with what's stuck in her Craw

[ef80]

this is an act of Defamation wether you want to call it slander or Libel.

Actually, the things we are saying here are not libel, slander or defamation. They are the truth - which is the defense when one is accused of such things.
Is the stallion skinny? YES.
Are these ideal photographs for advertising your stallion for sale? Hm, compared with other Shire stallions on a quick google search - NO.
Is breeding unproven stallions generally poo-pooed upon by educated horse people? YES
Are these people standing unproven stallions? YES

Do I need to go on and on?

[SillyHorse]

The wannabe came and she saw
It's apparent that she knows nothing of Law
Poked Erin with Sticks
Ran off in a snit
Should Feed that Shire with what's stuck in her Craw
*applause!* Bravo! *applause!*

[kcmel]

Has anyone alterted FHOD of the website and this thread? I wonder if you can still get the archived photos?

[Savoy 8]

Ok I did not see the body shots of him, but I did see the Shire studs head shot, so I can so nothing about his condition except that for a large draft breed his head and neck even look a little thin from what I could see...The other horses aren't personally what I would want to breed to, but to each his own right.... Most of the horses look in fair condition but, there was a Selle Francis on the for sale page that I think was 14 that I thought looked a bit thin.
My Shire who I recently leased to wonderful barn I actually found on this board, is by Illusion Farms Mister Sampson who was stabled at the same barn as the Shire in questions sire was stabled at... Nelson has since passed away and I can't find any pictures of him. I do though have pictures of Illusion Farms Mister Sampson who is by Garreg William and he is gorgeous and is great condition... Illusion Farms takes great care of their horses and if you contacted them they may be able to give you more info on the Shire in question (can't remember his name)

Here are the pic's of Illusion Farms Mister Sampson, he was a 2 time National Shire champion
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o5/Phantasia_Frank/SammyPhoto20show201998.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o5/Phantasia_Frank/Mister20Samson202.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o5/Phantasia_Frank/Mister20Samson201.jpg


And this is my Shire I leased out hope she doesn't mind me posting these, I shaved his feathers because with the humidity and hot weather they get a fungus if you don't dry them completely and it was just too much, so he is much more comfy with them shaved.... This is what they should look like!!!

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o5/Phantasia_Frank/Picture154.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o5/Phantasia_Frank/DSC_0130.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o5/Phantasia_Frank/DSC_0117.jpg
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o5/Phantasia_Frank/Max.jpg


You should contact Illusion Farms and see what kind of info they can give you about this stallion they may be able to help

[SillyHorse]

My eyes! My eyes!

[Savoy 8]

haha sorry Silly I like red and wanted make sure people saw it haha I guess you did

[SillyHorse]

I saw it, but I didn't read it! :lol:

[Everythingbutwings]

Why, of course you can. Thanks to the Internet Wayback Machine! Doesn't seem to have the shire on there, though, but there is quite a collection of others.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://whistlinwillowsfarm.0catch.com

[AnotherRound]

I don't know if this link would work, but when I googled

Illusion Farm's "Supreme Heir"


I found the chached page of Andy:

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:0YzZLncQlnUJ:whistlinwillowsfarm.0c atch.com/andy.html+Illusion+Farm%27s+%22Supreme+Heir%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Truly this is not only an irresponsible breeder, but an irresponsible and neglectful horse owner. The horse is ill. From the looks of this site, these horses are aquired and moved through with whatever marketing will make money off them. Golden! An uncut horse! We'll breed it!

I am so saddened by this 'farm'.

[SillyHorse]

Yes, that link works.

[gideeupgrl]

I sorry, I am of little knowledge, but is there is something wrong with this.......
"C-C Kayla- Beautiful black percheron mare, 4 y/o, 16H tall, rides and drives, has been used for camp, proven broodmare, just a nice all around mare. "

they might not have bred her, i didnt see any evidence of that, but to be 4 and a proven broodmare would mean she was bred @ 2?

In general, again forgive me, but what does "proven broodmare" mean? and what makes them proven?

ETA: the saddlebred stud too. isnt he a little young to have foals already? but then again on the for sale page he is a 2004 model and on the Saddlebred stud page he is a 2003.......


So I am correct in my asumption that they are breeding too young.;)

[zagafi]

Actually, the things we are saying here are not libel, slander or defamation. They are the truth - which is the defense when one is accused of such things.
Is the stallion skinny? YES.
Are these ideal photographs for advertising your stallion for sale? Hm, compared with other Shire stallions on a quick google search - NO.
Is breeding unproven stallions generally poo-pooed upon by educated horse people? YES
Are these people standing unproven stallions? YES

Do I need to go on and on?

Yes, you need to add lots of big words. More impressive that way, dontchaknow. Especially when you copy and paste.

[Kenike]

sorry to feed the troll, who does appear to have vanished.....

that Selle Francais on the sale page is WAY too skinny, even worse than the Shire! Look at the picture, you can see his backbone jutting, hips jutting, neck with no muscle tone and weak, and I'm sure we could count each rib if the tack were removed. He's 14, not 30!

I saw a number of others on that page that were raily (a.k.a. very thin, in case SHWB is still reading), so the claim that the Shire was the only one who was "slightly" thin was wrong. And he's more than "slightly" thin, himself.

Despite his body score and weight, I was one who was trying to be polite and not specifically say that he is definitely NOT stallion material (though in a later post, I went ahead and said it), and I did note that he is thin. Much too thin.

Poor Erin, having to deal with the armchair types who think they know more and get upset because they're money-making schemes are called out. :no:

[Noctis]

This day got so much more interesting after this was posted! I'm glad I took screenshots of the page too! Dang that is one heck of a bad conditioned horse, poor fellow. And newbie trolls :D Erin, you rock.

[equusrocks]

Savoy your guy is gorgeous!!!

[Gallop~on~Grant]

Ditto that! Your guy is lovely Savoy!

[FlashGordon]

Baby is sleeping... I should be working...

but alas... nothing like a COTH trainwreck to brighten my day....

Poor ponies on that site. :(

Savoy, WOW your boy is stunning....

[Catalina]

Savoy, your guy is gorgeous! Now that is what a Shire should look like.

[AnotherRound]

http://www.illusionfarm.com/shire_stud.htm

I wonder if Illusion Farm would want to know where that horse is and the condition it is in, and how it is being promoted and handled.

It would interesting if someone let them know about him and showed them the pictures of "Andy".

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:0YzZLncQlnUJ:whistlinwillowsfarm.0c atch.com/andy.html+Illusion+Farm%27s+%22Supreme+Heir%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

[Savoy 8]

OMG I am in shock at the condition of this Shire stallion.... I was able to view the link that was posted earlier and I can't believe this... I agree with contacting Illision farms they are great people with great horses and they loved Nelson very very much and would die if they saw his LAST baby in that condition!!!! I will say that this Shire stallion is not what the ASHA (American Shire Horse Association) would consider a model stallion simply because of his markings... they don't want white on the belly and socks should not extend about the knee... and the blaze should be wide but not go over the eyes and NO roaning!!!!!!!! He may look like a different horse with more wieght, if he has been malnorished for a while then he hasn't had the opportunity to grow properly, he may very well have been a nice looking horse if given the chance...
I will contact Illusion farms if no one else will.

[shireluver]

Did it say that the app stallion had successfully covered his first set of mares already at age 2? Seems pretty young to me. :eek:

shireluver, what your guy had was actually the immune disease Chronic Progressive Lymphedema, or 'CPL'. Several draft breeds can get it. I had a Shire in training that had that a while ago, it was very sad.

Here is some info on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_Progressive_Lymphedema
http://www.intl-pag.org/15/abstracts/PAG15_P05o_607.html
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/elephantitis/about.html
http://www.completerider.com/pasterndermatitis.htm

As many times as the vet was out for his legs, I wish he would have been diagnosed correctly if that was the problem. I even had vets at OSU look at pictures of his legs because we were considering having the tissue removed via surgery. He also said nothing.

It is something I will defianetly look into. Thank you for the information.

[Erin]

Reminder: you can comment on pictures that appear (or appeared) online, but you may NOT post unverified statements of fact. Please refer to the BB rules. Unless a statement of fact appears in print somewhere or is otherwise documented, you can't post it.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Do we really think that someone who can't find the spell check is going to find her way to a mailbox? or a courthouse?

BTW - in order to be either libel or slander, it has to be a lie. If what someone is saying about you is true, it doesn't matter if it damaged you!

My website does come up at the bottom of this post. Nothing on it will warrant a visit from the humane society either.

[greysandbays]

:rolleyes: I guess I'm not sure why Warmblood breeders waste so much time and energy (and the inherent risks of traveling with horses) to present their horses at inspections when there are so many 'experts' on here that need only their idiot crystals and a few inexpert photographs to devine the quality of a stallion and his worthiness as a sire...

[MistyBlue]

Would you breed to that Shire?
Conformation is not hard to figure out with a little experience...and knowing what that conformation will be able to do and what it will produce doesn't take any crystals to divine.
Add in the poor physical condition, the lack of proving itself and it's age and it's a pretty fair bet that this isn't an animal that's going to produce anything marketable.
Unfortunately many people who have mares and want a baby horse do not know how to evaluate a good stallion...hence the market being full of horses that are not selling.

[hundredacres]

It's because of threads like this that I haven't picked up a novel or fictional book to read in YEARS. You can't make this stuff up. It's funny, enetrtaining, mind-boggling at times...and free.

I love this. :)

[CarouselPony]

If that poster wanted to 'Print and Mail' this thread, I do hope they would send the pictures as well as the comments to the local Animal Control as well as the "Courthouse" - that poor boy!!!

[Dispatcher]

It's because of threads like this that I haven't picked up a novel or fictional book to read in YEARS. You can't make this stuff up. It's funny, enetrtaining, mind-boggling at times...and free.

I love this. :)

I'm with you, hundredacres!!

[J Swan]

Geez - you'd think the folks would just Photoshop the photos so the horses looked healthier.

Why on earth anyone would post evidence of their animal neglect on the Internet is beyond me.

Savoy - nice looking horse.

[greysandbays]

Would you breed to that Shire?
Conformation is not hard to figure out with a little experience...and knowing what that conformation will be able to do and what it will produce doesn't take any crystals to divine.
Add in the poor physical condition, the lack of proving itself and it's age and it's a pretty fair bet that this isn't an animal that's going to produce anything marketable.
Unfortunately many people who have mares and want a baby horse do not know how to evaluate a good stallion...hence the market being full of horses that are not selling.

Conformation may not be all that hard to figure out, but taking a picture that acurately portrays that conformation can be. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of pictures I've seen in which the horse pictured looked anything like it does in real life. Casual snapshots can make a good horse look like crap; professional trickery can make a common horse look exquisite.

"Marketing" is what determines "marketable". Quality has nothing to do with it. Great horses can sell for peanuts because of poor/no marketing; crap horses can sell for a fortune because the "right people" know the "right people".

[slc2]

We are really swamped and I don't really have time during the week any more to post, but this particular thread really required a response.

The owner of the website seems very angry that she is being criticized. I feel that the owner of the website is getting appropriate criticism.

I have visited 'inexpensive horse' farms, that sell a variety of breeds for lower prices. In most cases, there was a lot of 'horse trading' going on. The horses were presented as having more training and experience than they really did, and as being sounder and more broke than they really were. The horses were overpriced.

However, I have not been to any 'inexpensive horse farms' lately where the horses looked like THIS. I feel these horses are too thin and too dirty.

One does have to be cautious. Many people like to see horses be too fat, and are constantly warned by their vets that their horses are too heavy. Overweight is not good for horses. We purchased a pony several friends commented on was 'too thin!' that our VET told us needed to lose 15 % of his body weight.

Too, it isn't necessary that all horses be kept up the same way. Horses do not need a lot of fussing and picking to be healthy; not all horses need to be kept in show -ready condition. They can be quite happy and healthy that way.

I live in Amish country. I daily see horses that aren't fed a great deal and receive quite a bit of work. These horses are generally happy, healthy, and long-lived.

All that said, I have NEVER seen an Amish workhorse as thin as this Shire. And while the Amish don't keep their horses like show horses, they are never this dirty, either.

My opinion is that the Shire Stallion is in horrible shape, and so is the Selle Francaise. A Selle Francaise is actuallly a medium to medium heavy type horse, having been around them for many years and visted breeding farms with 250 Selle Francaise stallions at stud in France, I do feel I know quite a bit about how Selle Francaise horses are supposed to look. They never look like that unless they are not fed enough. The topline on the horse is particularly bad-looking. It's possible that the horse also has a chronic lameness, this might account for how prominent the backbone is and the shape of the topline.

Several of the youngsters are too thin as well. Someone commented on the poor conformation of the one youngster - the youngster I feel would look a lot better if it were not so thin.

The animals that are thinnner, seem to be the ones that require more food. The horses that are not as thin, are 'easy keeper breeds', like the Connemara. I think that it's possible that the horses are all given the same limited amounts of food; the smaller, easy keeper breeds don't look as bad as the ones who mare need a little more food to maintain a normal condition.

The horses in the pictures, especially the Shire stallion, also appear to be dirty and ungroomed. When a horse with feather on the legs, like a Shire, is not cared for properly, when their legs remain wet and dirty for long periods of time, they develop Scratches, which progress to proudflesh-like lumps of infected flesh, like those shown on the shaved legs of the light chestnut horse on this same post. Generally, I have found that horses that are in these conditions, are also not wormed regularly, vaccinated regularly, and in general, they are also not kept trained, shod on reasonable intervals, handled well, etc. This farm does not impress me.

I know from experience that these horses are not in poor enough shape for most humane societies and similar organizations to remove the horses from the farm. For a humane society to come in, the horses need to be down and dying, with gaping wounds, fractures, etc. This farm is unlikely to face legal action for the condition of these horses.

The most peculiar thing to me, is that the farm used these pictures to promote and advertise their farm to the public. They must think that these pictures are a good way to promote their farm! This is what I find the most peculiar about this entire situation. I simply don't understand that.

[MistyBlue]

Agreed with those points. But a poorly conformed horse in poor condition, set up poorly in the photo shoot does indeed show a plethora of faults and issues. With the condition of the horse, with the attributes (or lack of) in the horse, with the lack of photography skills (something I share, I stink at taking photos) and with the lack of marketing skills in the owner.

Some poor conformation can be hidden with great photography. And some bad photography can make a nice horse look not so nice. But in the case of the horse in the OP's post...I doubt a top photographer can make the poor boy look healthy and breeding quality. Maybe a pro camera person with serious photoshop skills...maybe.

I think the issue with many of the people posting here is a combination of why breed such a horse? (poor conformation, very poor condition, nothing proven and too young) And why use such bad marketing when you're running a business?

I don't usually reply to threads that pick on online ads...even though an online ad is pretty much open for a critique I also understand that in at least the photography skills department I couldn't do any better myself. This one just caught my eye because I am a firm believer in not breeding just because you can. With all animals...not just horses. But especially so with horses since they're larger, more expensive and live a lot longer than puppies or kittens. Not saying all horse breeders should only breed the best of the best out there...I happen to think there's a market for what show folks would term mediocre horses...what I term family horses. Those do make up the bulk of horses in this country...not the pampered ponies of the show world. But I can't stomach the Pony Mill type breeders who are producing what has a very high chance of not even being serviceably sound for it's lifetime. If they don't care enough about their stallions who are their money makers...what kind of poor malconformed animals are they churning out? :no:

[Savoy 8]

Ok I will say I have looked at the pictures of Andy some more, and he foaled in 2003 which makes him almost 5... Most Shire's will grow till they are 6 or 7 so his high butt will level out a little more maybe not the way it should be but it will none the less level a little... His body condition is absolutley ridiculous, if they just got him in and he was mistreated else where then they should not have advertised him at stud...

This is a link to the Shire Horse Association's Breed Standard....


http://www.shirehorse.org/Information/BreedStandard/


There is no doubt this horse needs weight and so does the Selle Francis...

[platinm]

savoy- your horse is beautiful!!

sporthorsewannabe- turn off the computer and go FEED YOUR HORSES. and worm them too, or something.

[greysandbays]

Savoy's horse's feet need trimming. And it looks like they have the lead shank chain going through his mouth. He's not a very good example of a draft horse, either, if he's supposed to be a purebred Shire. If he's just a crossbred mutt, then I guess that wouldn't matter.

[Laurierace]

You want to talk about putting horrible pictures on a website that is supposed to be promoting your horses, I just saw one that took the cake. I know many of you won't recognize these names, but these are some pretty darn nice racehorses now standing at stud in Korea. Volponi for example won the breeders cup classic. Commendable won the Belmont. The pictures are as bad if not worse than the ones posted on the never ending slaughter threads here. Look at poor Exploit, he looks like that is exactly what they did to him.

http://studbook.kra.co.kr/eng/html/eng_bhr_list.jsp

[caffeinated]

Savoy's horse's feet need trimming. And it looks like they have the lead shank chain going through his mouth. He's not a very good example of a draft horse, either, if he's supposed to be a purebred Shire. If he's just a crossbred mutt, then I guess that wouldn't matter.

Have you ever said anything nice to anybody, since you've been posting here?

Just curious.

[Claddagh]

Savoy's horse's feet need trimming. And it looks like they have the lead shank chain going through his mouth. He's not a very good example of a draft horse, either, if he's supposed to be a purebred Shire. If he's just a crossbred mutt, then I guess that wouldn't matter.


Have you ever said anything nice to anybody, since you've been posting here?

Just curious.

DITTO, caffeinated. greysandbays post was just plain nasty (as usual)!

[Savoy 8]

Caffinated thanks I was just getting ready to remark... Greysandbays can say whatever they want they are entitled to their own opinion... But to clarify drafts have very large round feet, and then when you shave their feathers it can make them look a little bigger...
Other then that I would love for you to tell me why he isn't a good looking draft horse... not because I think he is perfect, because I know he isn't, but he is a nice looking stallion and fits the breed standard

[fullmoon fever]

Savoy's horse's feet need trimming. And it looks like they have the lead shank chain going through his mouth. He's not a very good example of a draft horse, either, if he's supposed to be a purebred Shire. If he's just a crossbred mutt, then I guess that wouldn't matter.

Not being a draft horse expert, I will not comment on whether or not I think the horse is "typey" or his feet need trimming (just as I don't comment on halter QH's - other than to say the beef cow type are not pleasant to look at, IMO).

Having a chain run through a stallion's mouth in the show ring is the norm. Frankly, I can lead my stallions (not draft) around by a string tied to the halter, but at a show, unless they have a bridle on or are tied on the trailer, they have a chain through their mouths. It is something that is done so that, god forbid, your horse tries to pull away or otherwise behaves in a foolish manner, you have done "something extra" to ensure the public's safety. Just another bit of tripe we have to endure due to the over-litigious nature of our society.

[katarine]

Yall, you just replace Greys and Bays with Grimace and Bitch, then it's really easy to just ignore her vitriol. Asking her to explain herself only validates the experience. Let it roll on, baby.

[Guin]

I hope some does notify the original breeder of this poor horse about his current condition. I expect, since they (Illusion?) seem to be very reputable and decent horsepeople, that they sold the colt with a contract that specified how and or whether he could be used as a stud? And probably specified a reasonable standard of care or they could repossess him!

[kcmel]

You want to talk about putting horrible pictures on a website that is supposed to be promoting your horses, I just saw one that took the cake. I know many of you won't recognize these names, but these are some pretty darn nice racehorses now standing at stud in Korea. Volponi for example won the breeders cup classic. Commendable won the Belmont. The pictures are as bad if not worse than the ones posted on the never ending slaughter threads here. Look at poor Exploit, he looks like that is exactly what they did to him.

http://studbook.kra.co.kr/eng/html/eng_bhr_list.jsp

Laurierace, they all look so sad! Did you crosspost this in the racing forum?

[greysandbays]

Caffinated thanks I was just getting ready to remark... Greysandbays can say whatever they want they are entitled to their own opinion... But to clarify drafts have very large round feet, and then when you shave their feathers it can make them look a little bigger...
Other then that I would love for you to tell me why he isn't a good looking draft horse... not because I think he is perfect, because I know he isn't, but he is a nice looking stallion and fits the breed standard

He's a STALLION?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Hell, here I was thinking he was a gelding and tempered my remarks on account of my assumption that he would not be reproducing and was just somebody's pet. "Nice looking" isn't good enough to justify stallionhood, at least according to the concensus of this forum. The guy has to be damn near -- no, strike that -- absolutely perfect with no chance of ever siring a dud to justify keeping the family jewels. The horse in question does not (in these photographs) exhibit much in the way of a masculine look; he looks a trifle weedy and undeveloped (unless he's under five, then he'd have an excuse) without enough "drafty-ness" to be real quality. Breed standards are loosely written drivel intended to cover a huge range of horses from the very best to the very worst. Most decent horses could fit the "breed standard" of any of a dozen different breeds.

BTW, here's a nice Shire stallion that comes closer to the Ideal Shire:
http://www.blackforestshires.com/horses/ideal.htm

And this one's just a Drum Horse, but damn! he's pretty! And demonstrates the drafty-ness that I found lacking in your horse:
http://www.gypsyhorses.com/Horses/galwar.htm

(Disclaimer: I do not own either of these horses; I do not know their owners. I just googled "shire stallion" and picked out a couple I liked.)

[Savoy 8]

Do you know anything about Shires??? probably not, they are not suppose to be as heavy as a Percheron or Clydesdale. Did you see the link I posted about the Breed Standard for the Shires??? They are the most athletic of the draft breeds...

Here it is in case you missed it
Color: Black, brown, bay, grey or chestnut/sorrel (rare) are the preferred colors. Excessive white markings and roaning are undesirable.
Heignt: Minimum 16.2 hands and upwards. Average 17.1 hands
Head: Long and lean, neither too large nor too small, with long neck in proportion to the body. Large jaw bone should be avoided.
Eyes: Large, well set and alert. Wall-eyes should be avoided if possible.
Nose: Nostrils thin and wide, lips together and nose slightly Roman.
Ears: Long, lean, sharp and sensitive.
Throat: Clean cut and lean.
Shoulder: Deep, oblique, wide enough to support the collar.
Neck: Long, slightly arched, well set on to give the horse a commanding appearance.
Girth: Deep, with adequate width in proportion to the rest of the body.
Back: Short, strong and muscular. Should not be dipped or roached.
Loins: Standing well up, denoting constitution.
Fore-end: Wide across the chest, with legs well under the body and well developed in muscle, or action is impeded.
Hindquarters: Long and sweeping, wide and full of muscle; well let down toward the thighs.
Ribs: Round, deep and well sprung, not flat.
Forelegs: Should be straight as possible down to the pastern.
Pastern: Fairly long and sloped at about 45-degree angle.
Hind legs: Hocks should be clean, broad, deep, flat and wide when viewed broad-side; set at the correct angle for leverage, and in line with the hind·quarters. Should be of heavy bone; "puffy" and "sickle" hocks to be avoided. The leg should be clean cut, hard, and clear of short cannon bone.
Feet: Moderately deep and wide at the heels; coronets open.
Feather: Fine, straight and silky.
He should possess a masculine head, and a good crest with sloping, not upright, shoulders running well into the back, which should be short and well coupled with the loins. The tail should be set well up, and not what Is known as "goose-rumped." Both head and tail should be carried erect. The ribs should be well sprung, not flat sided, with good middle, which generally denotes good constitution. The most essential parts of a stallion are his feet and joints; the feet should have open necks, big around the top of the coronets, with plenty of length in the pasterns. When in motion, he should go with force, using both knees and hocks, which the latter should be kept close together. He should go straight and true before and behind.

I said pretty guy because I didn't want to be like I have the prettiest Shire in the world!! Cause I don't, but I want to cross him with TB's and he will produce a great cross.
I don't know you or really give a crap what you say I just want you to have your facts straight every breed has their own set of standards they don't go by what YOU think.... I think you need a book on how to win friends and influence people, or a stiff drink to kill that bug up your ass... which ever you prefer

[fullmoon fever]

He's a STALLION?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

You obviously did not look at the pictures very closely. His testicles are as evident as your lack of manners.

[Candle]

I think we should sue shwb for abuse of Webster's. My eyes.... :cry:

[Savoy 8]

Greysandbays I am sure you were refering to Illusion Farms Mister Sampson??? the black Shire stallion??? cause he was the 2 time national Shire champion, and I believe they know what they are looking for....


Has anyone contacted the owners of "Andy" to inquire why he is so thin???...
Just wanting to keep things on track with the original post

[catknsn]

Laurierace, they all look so sad! Did you crosspost this in the racing forum?

Ugh.

We quarantine boarded Everydayissaturday and Thushaan last winter pending export. They were in much better condition at that time. :(

[AnotherRound]

Here's the Selle Francais for sale on Horseville.com:

http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=119233

$5000.00

[PalominoMorgan]

This is the one that makes my head spin http://www.horseville.com/horses/horse115219.html

The morgan mare on the site is cute, but I wonder about her being a broodmare already in addition to being broke to drive, ride, etc. (In theory, broke to drive at 2, started under saddle at 3, and now 4, but where is the time to be a broodmare. *Scratches head and waits to be served with papers from the law suit*)

[JCS]

Here's the Selle Francais for sale on Horseville.com:

http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=119233

$5000.00

How did I miss this before? This farm is in my in-law's town...only about an hour from me. I just may have to call and inquire about some of their horses for sale.

Gosh, now I'm embarrassed that this is in my very own state.

[Auventera Two]

Have you ever said anything nice to anybody, since you've been posting here?

Just curious.

No. And I'm surprised that her next advice wasn't "Cut off what don't look like a toenail." :rolleyes: Because after all, that's the correct way to trim hooves, according to her.

[Auventera Two]

The guy has to be damn near -- no, strike that -- absolutely perfect with no chance of ever siring a dud to justify keeping the family jewels.

I don't know your experience with genetics and breeding, but I know "just" enough to know that you NEVER have a guarantee when you breed animals. Never. (Or people for that matter!)

[Auventera Two]

Here's the Selle Francais for sale on Horseville.com:

http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=119233

$5000.00

I love how the ad text says he's a solid 17.1 and then under the "height" box of the details, it says 17.0. :lol:

[JumperFun]

I think you need a book on how to win friends and influence people, or a stiff drink to kill that bug up your ass... which ever you prefer
Heh heh... I like Savoy!

[hundredacres]

Here's the Selle Francais for sale on Horseville.com:

http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=119233

$5000.00

I couldn't help myself...I HAD to email that seller. Oy. The only time I have seen that bump behind the saddle is when horses are emaciated...seen a few of those now.

[caffeinated]

or a stiff drink to kill that bug up your ass... which ever you prefer

This might work better:
http://shop.toolsforhealing.com/DeWormer_Parasite_Cleanse_p/bh-dewormer.htm

[Catalina]

You want to talk about putting horrible pictures on a website that is supposed to be promoting your horses, I just saw one that took the cake. I know many of you won't recognize these names, but these are some pretty darn nice racehorses now standing at stud in Korea. Volponi for example won the breeders cup classic. Commendable won the Belmont. The pictures are as bad if not worse than the ones posted on the never ending slaughter threads here. Look at poor Exploit, he looks like that is exactly what they did to him.

http://studbook.kra.co.kr/eng/html/eng_bhr_list.jsp

:eek: :eek: :eek: Holy bad photography batman!

[Savoy 8]

This might work better:
http://shop.toolsforhealing.com/DeWormer_Parasite_Cleanse_p/bh-dewormer.htm

Haha yeah I agree, but I can't afford but one bottle and it may take several treatments!!!!!!

[slc2]

I wouldn't say grays and bays is so much nasty as ignorant and inexperienced iwth horses - on the savoy 8 horse, the chain thru the mouth is a very common way to restrain an amorous breeding stallion (they're always amorous). the 'bad' feet actually aren't particularly bad, but could use a neatening trim, but wide feet like this are typical of draft horses, and pasture kept breeding stock does quite well even with a few flares and chips of the feet.

the conformation of the shire stallion complained of as being thin is hard to evaluate as the animal is so gutted up. however, one must keep in mind that quite a few not-so-perfect animals ARE stood at stud, and this is not illegal. it isn't wise, but it's common.

many people are impressed by large horses, and don't evaluate their conformation in the same light as a regular horse, and many of these people are seeking to breed their (average) thoroughbred or thb cross to a rather (average) draft stallion to produce what they think of as a 'warmblood', and what until recently was called a 'crossbred' or 'half thoroughbred'.

draft horses vary. the 'hitchier' (higher stepping), taller, slimmer type desired for draft shows these days is STILL a far heavier animal than most saddle horse breeds, and still has wider feet, a different topline, neck and hind quarter. the older type of draft horses are thicker, heavier than the hitchy types and often have rather long backs and short legs.

crossing lighter horses with draft horses gives a very wide range of results, some that look exactly like the draft ancestor in mass and conformation, some that have a mix of traits from each parent, and some that look quite alot like the thb parent.

the ideal is a thb of slightly stronger bone and slightly more mass, with an eager yet calm temperament. this type of cross of heavier and lighter horses was of special interest to a breeder of trakehners and polish warmbloods from the polish govt farms, named andy orlov and he recommended for riding, using the second or third generation cross, with 1/4 or 1/8 draft blood. it is not easy to breed nice draft crosses; folks standing draft stallions cater to the small home breeder who believes he can breed a draft cross that will beat the expensive warmbloods; they serve experienced small farm horse people who are capable of breaking and training youngsters, and want to breed a calm, quiet family horse and have the pleasure of watching it grow up.

all that aside, draft horses DO typically have massive heads, thick necks, and steeply sloped croups, by saddle horse standards. they do not always have the angulation of hock or stifle a riding horse is expected to have. they typically do not have the same sort of topline a light horse person would look for, and it is particularly difficult to take pictures of taller, heavier horses at a decent angle and make them look nice.

again, the comment about the back on the selle francaise. the roaching of the back is typical of a horse with a chronic lameness, but the horse is ALSO too thin. that is what makes the roaching of the back so obvious.

now really gotta go. but this thread does deserve some attention.

[SillyHorse]

Thanks for giving your stamp of approval to the thread.

[JohnDeere]

We are out of popcorn over here. Could someone pass more?

[Thomas_1]

Does any of this make sense to anyone??? And if it does make sense, is it recognised as being anything near correct?

However I really do entirely agree with the last sentence! ;)

I wouldn't say grays and bays is so much nasty as ignorant and inexperienced iwth horses - on the savoy 8 horse, the chain thru the mouth is a very common way to restrain an amorous breeding stallion (they're always amorous). the 'bad' feet actually aren't particularly bad, but could use a neatening trim, but wide feet like this are typical of draft horses, and pasture kept breeding stock does quite well even with a few flares and chips of the feet.

the conformation of the shire stallion complained of as being thin is hard to evaluate as the animal is so gutted up. however, one must keep in mind that quite a few not-so-perfect animals ARE stood at stud, and this is not illegal. it isn't wise, but it's common.

many people are impressed by large horses, and don't evaluate their conformation in the same light as a regular horse, and many of these people are seeking to breed their (average) thoroughbred or thb cross to a rather (average) draft stallion to produce what they think of as a 'warmblood', and what until recently was called a 'crossbred' or 'half thoroughbred'.

draft horses vary. the 'hitchier' (higher stepping), taller, slimmer type desired for draft shows these days is STILL a far heavier animal than most saddle horse breeds, and still has wider feet, a different topline, neck and hind quarter. the older type of draft horses are thicker, heavier than the hitchy types and often have rather long backs and short legs.

crossing lighter horses with draft horses gives a very wide range of results, some that look exactly like the draft ancestor in mass and conformation, some that have a mix of traits from each parent, and some that look quite alot like the thb parent.

the ideal is a thb of slightly stronger bone and slightly more mass, with an eager yet calm temperament. this type of cross of heavier and lighter horses was of special interest to a breeder of trakehners and polish warmbloods from the polish govt farms, named andy orlov and he recommended for riding, using the second or third generation cross, with 1/4 or 1/8 draft blood. it is not easy to breed nice draft crosses; folks standing draft stallions cater to the small home breeder who believes he can breed a draft cross that will beat the expensive warmbloods; they serve experienced small farm horse people who are capable of breaking and training youngsters, and want to breed a calm, quiet family horse and have the pleasure of watching it grow up.

all that aside, draft horses DO typically have massive heads, thick necks, and steeply sloped croups, by saddle horse standards. they do not always have the angulation of hock or stifle a riding horse is expected to have. they typically do not have the same sort of topline a light horse person would look for, and it is particularly difficult to take pictures of taller, heavier horses at a decent angle and make them look nice.

again, the comment about the back on the selle francaise. the roaching of the back is typical of a horse with a chronic lameness, but the horse is ALSO too thin. that is what makes the roaching of the back so obvious.

now really gotta go. but this thread does deserve some attention.

[DMK]

You want to talk about putting horrible pictures on a website that is supposed to be promoting your horses, I just saw one that took the cake. I know many of you won't recognize these names, but these are some pretty darn nice racehorses now standing at stud in Korea. Volponi for example won the breeders cup classic. Commendable won the Belmont. The pictures are as bad if not worse than the ones posted on the never ending slaughter threads here. Look at poor Exploit, he looks like that is exactly what they did to him.

http://studbook.kra.co.kr/eng/html/eng_bhr_list.jsp

Yes, look at poor Menifee. You can see a picture of what he looked like BEFORE he was exported on TB pedigree query. Sad. (And he looks better than many on that site)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/menifee2

[Roisin]

Does any of this make sense to anyone??? And if it does make sense, is it recognised as being anything near correct?

However I really do entirely agree with the last sentence! ;)

Well...I thought slc was final authority on all subjects! Sheesh, you should know that by now. :rolleyes:

[Pronzini]

You want to talk about putting horrible pictures on a website that is supposed to be promoting your horses, I just saw one that took the cake. I know many of you won't recognize these names, but these are some pretty darn nice racehorses now standing at stud in Korea. Volponi for example won the breeders cup classic. Commendable won the Belmont. The pictures are as bad if not worse than the ones posted on the never ending slaughter threads here. Look at poor Exploit, he looks like that is exactly what they did to him.

http://studbook.kra.co.kr/eng/html/eng_bhr_list.jsp

Those aren't air brushed ads though. Aren't they more like ID snapshots?

Also, to be fair, they are shots out of quarantine and after a long trip. I don't look so good after a cross country trip rolling off the airplane either. :)

[AnotherRound]

now really gotta go. but this thread does deserve some attention.

Excellent. If Slc hadn't said it, I don't know what might have happened to this thread. No one would have looked, prolly.

[AnotherRound]

Aventura, now I don't remember what the original ad says, but that pic has been swapped out! The new pic is of a horse with better muscle and weight on it. Horse still looks like its picking its feet up over high grass, but still.

Someones been monitoring this thread!

http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=119233

Old, skinny pic of selle francais is gone, can't find it in cache, unless someone saved it. Oh, well.

I can't tell if this is the same horse, or not.

If it is, can you imagine having a pic of this horse looking healthy, as apparently she does cause she replaced old with new, yet putting the rotten pic oringially on a sale ad, both on her website and on the sale website? Why? Same reason she puts a pic of the ratty skinny poorly kept shire "stud" on her website, until shamed into taking it down.

Is it really the same horse? Without a berfore pic to compare it to, I can't remember, can't tell.

[greysandbays]

Well, thank you SO MUCH for those of you who fell all over yourselves to jump on me for critiquing a horse posted on here as an example of a "lovely" Shire for proving my point: There are a lot of hypocrites on here who are fine with The Clique shredding other people's horses to bits but throw massive hissy fit when somebody does it on a much lesser scale to one of you..

You guys shit all over somebody who had no previous connection to this board over things you got in a self-righteous huff about on their website (which were really none of your business). And then proceeded to shit all over them again when they (apparently, according to the rumor?) showed up here with an ineffectual attempt to defend themselves. And you patted yourselves (and each other) vigorously on the back about what splendid, knowledgeable people you were and congratulated yourselves for running that person off in disgrace.

In the process you gush all over a stallion (owned by one of your coherts) who, if he is going to be producing all these wonderful babies when crossed with TB mares, is most certainly by that virtue NOT, NOT, NOT even close to being an "Ideal Shire". Any stallion anwhere near being an Ideal Shire would not in a million years be a really good cross with TB's (or anything else) for producing sport horses, any more than an ideal old-fashioned shetland pony would be. However, a scrub Shire who falls far short of his breed's ideal might very well do the trick.

The only thing pictures of this horse prove is that a fat, shiney horse prepped for show is "prettier" than a horse in pasture conditions in less than optimum condition. Being prettier for the moment doesn't make him a better horse.

But back to the forum's regularly schedualed exercise in Advanced Hypocrisy...and while I may have aced the Advanced Bitch course, I bow to The Clique on your string of A+'s on this one.

PS: Specifically to slc2. If you will READ FOR COMPREHENSION, I never said anything about "bad feet"on the referenced horse. My EXACT WORDS were "need trimming". Which I would think any knowledgable horse person would attend to before presenting their horse in public, but maybe that's just me. Be that as it may, it wasn't the "wide" feet I was referring to -- it was the excessive length of toe and noticable dish.

I mentioned the chain through the mouth because not so long ago, there was a shit-fest on here about how HORRIBLE PEOPLE at a quarter horse show were showing their horses with chains through the mouth and it was agreed by The Clique that OMG, this was evil and irrefutable evidence that they lacked any horsemanship skills whatsoever.

[Madaketmomma]

Thanks for giving your stamp of approval to the thread.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[MistyBlue]

And then proceeded to sh*t all over them again when they (apparently, according to the rumor?) showed up here with an ineffectual attempt to defend themselves.
Not rumor unless two people can have the same e-mail address, would seem to be someone fibbing:
Originally Posted by sporthorsewannabe:
Erin, I have nothing to do with the farm being spoken of, I said I would notify them as they are being shit upon as well as print the items and send them to them.
By Erin:
No, you told me you were going down to the courthouse yourself. And your email address is listed as the farm's contact on at least one website I found.

And for the record...I have never had a bowel movement on anyone.

That I know of.

Cliques are so high school. This is just a case where many people share the same opinions. Does not make them a clique...read some other threads and you'll see the same posters allegedly "clique-ing" are not always in agreement about everything. Nor are they forming some sort of consipiracy theory on cliques or on projecting the image of high school cliques in order to make a seemingly perpetually cranky poster fear they are not part of a clique.
There is no spoon. (um, clique) :winkgrin: :D

[greysandbays]

Cliques are so high school. This is just a case where many people share the same opinions. Does not make them a clique...read some other threads and you'll see the same posters allegedly "clique-ing" are not always in agreement about everything. Nor are they forming some sort of consipiracy theory on cliques or on projecting the image of high school cliques in order to make a seemingly perpetually cranky poster fear they are not part of a clique.
There is no spoon. (um, clique) :winkgrin: :D

And this forum is so high school in a lot of ways -- especially in it's certainty that unawareness of one's ignorance is concrete proof of one's genius and that solidity of one's opinions grants automatic infalliblity.

"The Clique" is a loosely formed assembly of convenience that gathers for the moment to unleash it's collective attack on whatever they have decreed evil. Acceptance in this for-the-moment assembly requires only that you jump on the bandwagon in decrying whatever it is they are on the howl about at the moment, never mind common sense or the actual facts. Failure do do so results in a greater level of attack than whatever it was they got so hyper about in the first place. For the next Gathering Of The Clique, it's everybody for herself.

It is with some satisfaction that I say I do believe I haven't ever been the nefarious force that "The Clique" has temporarily rallied around. And I dearly hope my non-recollection of ever having actually inserted myself in "The Clique" is the actual truth and not just forgetfulness on my part... :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Thomas_1]

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:0YzZLncQlnUJ:whistlinwillowsfarm.0c atch.com/andy.html+Illusion+Farm%27s+%22Supreme+Heir%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

And clearly the photos were taken in a VERY bad light and the horse isn't really starved and in poor condition!

[JCS]

Aventura, now I don't remember what the original ad says, but that pic has been swapped out! The new pic is of a horse with better muscle and weight on it. Horse still looks like its picking its feet up over high grass, but still.

Someones been monitoring this thread!

http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=119233

Old, skinny pic of selle francais is gone, can't find it in cache, unless someone saved it. Oh, well.

I can't tell if this is the same horse, or not.

If it is, can you imagine having a pic of this horse looking healthy, as apparently she does cause she replaced old with new, yet putting the rotten pic oringially on a sale ad, both on her website and on the sale website? Why? Same reason she puts a pic of the ratty skinny poorly kept shire "stud" on her website, until shamed into taking it down.

Is it really the same horse? Without a berfore pic to compare it to, I can't remember, can't tell.

That's the same picture as before.

[Auventera Two]

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:0YzZLncQlnUJ:whistlinwillowsfarm.0c atch.com/andy.html+Illusion+Farm%27s+%22Supreme+Heir%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

And clearly the photos were taken in a VERY bad light and the horse isn't really starved and in poor condition!

In case you missed it (and obviously you did...) I was referring to the THOROUGHBRED page out of Korea, or wherever. And in case you missed this too, I also said that a SHIRE coming in at a 2 on the scale is obviously a big problem. ;) I also said that according to the lecturer (whose full time job is running a horse rescue and prosecuting high profile neglect cases), a THOROUGHBRED is perhaps the toughest horse to judge by photograph.

The point was that a racing fit Thoroughbred whose just been exported and went through quarantine has somewhat of an excuse to be thinner than a breeding Shire stallion.

[Thomas_1]

The point was that a racing fit Thoroughbred whose just been exported and went through quarantine has somewhat of an excuse to be thinner than a breeding Shire stallion.
No sh** Sherlock!

And you went all the way to Florida to learn that ;)

I don't deny that some of those horses look too thin. And I think the Shire and the Selle Francais are too thin based on those photos too. But I'm just saying that sometimes it is difficult to evaluate based on one photo.

[tullyleague]

This is the one that makes my head spin http://www.horseville.com/horses/horse115219.html

The morgan mare on the site is cute, but I wonder about her being a broodmare already in addition to being broke to drive, ride, etc. (In theory, broke to drive at 2, started under saddle at 3, and now 4, but where is the time to be a broodmare. *Scratches head and waits to be served with papers from the law suit*)

Oh my.............damn.

This is the woman who has been contacting me about a mare I have for sale.

:eek:

[Auventera Two]

No sh** Sherlock!

And you went all the way to Florida to learn that ;)

Pardon me, but it does seem that YOU are the one who jumped all over ME for "not thinking that Shire was too skinny" based upon a post that I wrote, and you promptly misunderstood.

And no, I didn't go all the way to Florida to learn that. I went all the way to Florida to do 6 days of trimming, lecture, disection/cadaver work, and final exam testing to fulfill my equine podiatry certification requirements. ;)

[Thomas_1]

I went all the way to Florida to do 6 days of trimming, lecture, disection/cadaver work, and final exam testing to fulfill my equine podiatry certification requirements. ;) Heck you have to actually do something to get it?!

That's tough! The "inventor" of the title equine pediatry, KC La Pierre merely bought his made up qualification off the internet!

[summerhorse]

The entire site whispers "fugly". Well, that's not exactly accurate.

It doesn't whisper.

LOL

[summerhorse]

Yes, look at poor Menifee. You can see a picture of what he looked like BEFORE he was exported on TB pedigree query. Sad. (And he looks better than many on that site)

http://www.pedigreequery.com/menifee2

He's actually TOO fat there. They don't keep their horses fat but some are a bit too much on the thin side but the really skinny ones were taken right after they got there (how far IS it from KY to Korea anyway? Must be a heck of a plane trip!) and hopefully they look better now. They have one on there using his BABY picture and he's like 10! So it doesn't seem like they update very often! They also don't seem to groom much or know how to take horse pictures at ALL.

[Thomas_1]

My opinion is that the Shire Stallion is in horrible shape, and so is the Selle Francaise. A Selle Francaise is actuallly a medium to medium heavy type horse, having been around them for many years and visted breeding farms with 250 Selle Francaise stallions at stud in France, I do feel I know quite a bit about how Selle Francaise horses are supposed to look. They never look like that unless they are not fed enough.
Which stud farm have you visited in France?

That horse you know quite a bit about is actually a Selle Francais no E!

Also its a sports horse and predominently arab and t/b and Norfolk Trotter and traditionally was developed as such its a light (as in not medium heavy!) harness horse.

They fall into 3 categories though:

- Competition horses (for jumping and dressage and eventing

- Race horses known as Chevezux Autres Que Pur Sang Anglais. Or Horses of Other than Pure English Blood

- non-specialist horses and its this third category that have developed as a heavier medium weight and to have better weight carrying capacity

[DMK]

He's actually TOO fat there. They don't keep their horses fat but some are a bit too much on the thin side but the really skinny ones were taken right after they got there (how far IS it from KY to Korea anyway? Must be a heck of a plane trip!) and hopefully they look better now. They have one on there using his BABY picture and he's like 10! So it doesn't seem like they update very often! They also don't seem to groom much or know how to take horse pictures at ALL.

My thoughts were that Menifee leans towards "easy keeper" - this may work out in his favor. Also where does it say these are fresh off the plane shots? That certainly doesn't seem to be the case for all the mares. Some are definitely in good flesh, but plenty of others are poor looking.

[Dalfan]

We've been over this 5 times but shall we try for one more....

Aven2, why even bother? It's apparent he just likes to poke at you at every opportunity (real or imagined). It even looks like you are so far under his skin that he has gone to great lengths to save up your posts he considers...pokable - then he can pull them out of his....um hat as a challenge. Seems he will ALWAYS make it personal (with you and his other favorite)- isn't that against the rules??

And I don't see that special someone trotting out his credentials to back up his supposed expertise in all things equine...why should you.

This is what happens when one dares to challenge a master.

[Coup De Des]

*hugs self*

I just love it here.

[~Freedom~]

*hugs self*

I just love it here.

Silently sits back and hugs Coup De Des also. I have been information starved lately so I popped over here for all the latest news.:)

[Instant Karma]

Here's the Selle Francais for sale on Horseville.com:

http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=119233

$5000.00

Oh. My. God. That skinny, and being ridden, and actually posting photos as proof.... omg, what is wrong with people.:no:

How can they look at that horse and think he is anywhere near healthy????

[Ponyclubrocks]

Silently sits back and hugs Coup De Des also. I have been information starved lately so I popped over here for all the latest news.:)

Can I hug you both???:lol::lol::lol:

[Ember]

Can I hug you both???:lol::lol::lol:

Umm, I know I don't know you all very well, but I'm in for a group hug too...

I love this place..

[Little Indian]

I couldn't help myself...I HAD to email that seller. Oy. The only time I have seen that bump behind the saddle is when horses are emaciated...seen a few of those now.

I am not defending the seller in any way because the way their Shire looks is unexcusable, but I have one now who has that "bump behind the saddle." He was gelded about a month ago and got an incredibly bad infection and lost a TON of weight. We havn't ridden him yet because he was so skinny (he is slowly gaining it back), but he is a hard keeping TB, and even though he gets 5 flakes of alfalfa a day plus buckets, he still looks like a rescue case. Maybe their horse (which I am assuming is not a SF, because they have no proof of pedigree) is a hard keeper?

[Thomas_1]

If a horse is a "hard keeper", does that mean you have to work harder to keep it?

Just a thought :winkgrin:

And for Ember, Freedom and Coup de Des:
http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/store/assets/images/product/cudchi/cudchi_lg.jpg

[Coup De Des]

OMG Tom! *LOL*

That is creepy!

It's just *these* threads that I love... Gee I just can't work out why.

[hundredacres]

I am not defending the seller in any way because the way their Shire looks is unexcusable, but I have one now who has that "bump behind the saddle." He was gelded about a month ago and got an incredibly bad infection and lost a TON of weight. We havn't ridden him yet because he was so skinny (he is slowly gaining it back), but he is a hard keeping TB, and even though he gets 5 flakes of alfalfa a day plus buckets, he still looks like a rescue case. Maybe their horse (which I am assuming is not a SF, because they have no proof of pedigree) is a hard keeper?

Thats TOTALLY understandable. I've got one here right now like that (Carson City Kid, the Exceller horse)....but you aren't trying to sell your horse in that condition, are you? That seller seems to not realize what a hard keeper the sf gelding is or they would have mentioned it in their ad. Better yet, they would have worked out the weight issue and waited to sell him. Thats just my opinion I guess. But I would be compelled to explain the horses condition.........and is it just me or would you guys ride a horse that is that thin? I would chose not to on saddle fit alone....but sheesh I just feel fatigued looking at the poor thing.

[Phyxius]

And I must tell you that I was just THRILLED to see his "after" pictures were of him doing things that a draft horse should (and not standing in a ring with a dressage saddle on!).

:confused::no:


Don't get me wrong though. Shireluvr did a great job, the horse looks fantastic and I have no problem with drafts working, but that's not all they can or should do. Drafts have been ridden for centuries and for good reason.

[Phyxius]

Savoy, you should be saying your guy is gorgeous...he is!

:lol: But, then I guess my percheron stallion is a bad draft horse too...

http://www.phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/188288367-M.jpg

http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/169307140-M.jpg

[ASHA Member]

Why, of course you can. Thanks to the Internet Wayback Machine! Doesn't seem to have the shire on there, though, but there is quite a collection of others.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://whistlinwillowsfarm.0catch.com


I checked this link out and wow, talk about deceptive advertizing!

Their spotted saddlebred stallion, My Magik Marker is a 2003 foal - I looked him up in the ASHA database. Why is there a photo from the 1993 Pinto Nationals advertizing him?

http://web.archive.org/web/20070101004127/http://www.whistlinwillowsfarm.0catch.com/

I assume it is the sire of My Magik Marker, but they don't indicate that at all. Unless you dug a little deeper, you wouldn't know that the photo is NOT the stallion they are advertizing.

[greysandbays]

Savoy, you should be saying your guy is gorgeous...he is!

:lol: But, then I guess my percheron stallion is a bad draft horse too...

http://www.phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/188288367-M.jpg

http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/169307140-M.jpg

He's a better example of a draft horse type, but he sure has some funky hind legs. The last horse I knew with hind legs like that wouldn't stay sound and eventually broke down completely, so he's dead now. Wasn't my horse so I didn't investigate the whys and hows of the condition, but I know it wasn't fun for anybody involved.

ETA: He's got a rather coarse head for a good Percheron.

[tullyleague]

Savoy, you should be saying your guy is gorgeous...he is!

:lol: But, then I guess my percheron stallion is a bad draft horse too...

http://www.phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/188288367-M.jpg

http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/169307140-M.jpg

Phyxius? I want your horse. Please? :)

[~Freedom~]

And for Ember, Freedom and Coup de Des:
http://www.iwantoneofthose.com/store/assets/images/product/cudchi/cudchi_lg.jpg



LOL :lol::lol::lol:

[MistyBlue]

He's a better example of a draft horse type, but he sure has some funky hind legs. The last horse I knew with hind legs like that wouldn't stay sound and eventually broke down completely, so he's dead now.

Good Lord...:no:

Last time I met such a negative person as this, they sure had some funky personality online that wouldn't allow them any lack of stress and happiness and they eventually broke down completely, so they're dead now. :rolleyes:

Try some of this G&B: :D Doesn't hurt...swear it. :winkgrin:

(not saying be happy happy joy joy on every thread...but at least on one thread. Once. Just for sh*ts and giggles and to keep us on our toes. Not saying to throw hearts and flowers around...nobody likes that unless they're brain-dead...but seriously..."I knew a horse like that and it died?" when it's a photo of a horse standing or being ridden...not a photo of a horse impaled on something and without any majorly medical conformation faults?)

[~Freedom~]

so they're dead now. :rolleyes:



Something died alright, just not sure if it died in the open or in some dark recess.

[arena run]

The seller of the Selle Fransleiwuwehshsssa has sent this board a message via her advertisement. sylvia

[Phyxius]

He's a better example of a draft horse type, but he sure has some funky hind legs. The last horse I knew with hind legs like that wouldn't stay sound and eventually broke down completely, so he's dead now. Wasn't my horse so I didn't investigate the whys and hows of the condition, but I know it wasn't fun for anybody involved.

ETA: He's got a rather coarse head for a good Percheron.


Hahaha, :lol:

[MistyBlue]

I didn't think we could send e-mails from this BB to an ad site. Would that mean that the person was indeed the one on here earlier? Although it's probably not coincidence that the e-mails from the poster and the sales barn were the same. I would assume that they'd have had to see this forum and read it to know why the e-mails were coming in.
I don't think sending e-mails will change their marketing or care techniques. Not sure if they do have care issues...but it just doesn't make sense that a farm full of well cared for animals and they'd only use photos on ads and websites when the horses are seriously underweight and out of condition.

Phyxius...hope your horse's legs don't kill him. ;)

[AnotherRound]

Well, the selle's advertisment is down now. Still has that sad young morgan up, though.

I checked this link out and wow, talk about deceptive advertizing!

Their spotted saddlebred stallion, My Magik Marker is a 2003 foal - I looked him up in the ASHA database. Why is there a photo from the 1993 Pinto Nationals advertizing him?

http://web.archive.org/web/200701010...rm.0catch.com/

I assume it is the sire of My Magik Marker, but they don't indicate that at all. Unless you dug a little deeper, you wouldn't know that the photo is NOT the stallion they are advertizing.


Well, as of right now, she has taken that webpage down, just now, the main webpage has been updated. Also, the Selle is completely gone from horseville.

I didn't mention anything about the website photos, if you look in

[AnotherRound]

Stunning 2004 Bay Homozygous(tested) tobiano saddlebred stllion, has produced a few very nice foals. Started in the lines but needs more work, ready to start undersaddle, could easily get his ASHA Pony card and has enough to show as a 3gtd pony. Lots of size behind him and has passed plenty to his foals. 2004 Weanling and 2006 2 y/o ASAM Futurity winner.


For Sale
Location Gorham, Maine Birthdate April 2004
Breed Saddlebred Gender Stallion
Color Pinto Height 15.0 hands
Asking Price $7,500 (US) Weight Not Available
Registered ASHA and PtHA
Disciplines Youth; Stallion; Saddle Seat; Pleasure Driving; Halter; Gaited; Equitation; English Pleasure; Driving;


OK, Here's the link to this one (grab it quick, it might dissapear...)and maybe you folks can help me with this. http://http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=114926

Lets, see, first of all its a 2003 horse, which means its now five years old, right? Almost. But she's advertising it with a weanling photo? At least, on her website, she captions this photo as "pictured here as a weanling". Is that what that is? I won't comment on the splayed legs almost slippingout from under him, and what's with that sway back, but never mind...Its a stallion. At five hears old, it needs to be started undersaddle. Apparently, there are get on the ground (.."and has passed plenty to his foals") and onthe website his stud fee is offered as "introductory" at $500.00. Doesn't that mean they are trying him out this season to see what kind of foals he throws? But, I thought he already had foals on the ground from past seasons. I admit, I know nothing about breeding, so maybe this is usual. Now here's where it gets tricky :

-He could easily get his ASHA Pony card [yet, is 15.0 hands high]

- and has enough to show as a 3gtd pony.[it hasn't been broken to saddle, so we know diddly about its its three gates, and, its NOT a pony, its 15.0 hands hands high]

- and has enough size (so, I guess, NOT a pony?) and has "Lots of size behind him and has passed plenty to his foals" so which is it, a horse with size? Or, a pony.

Sigh. Not alot of brains behind this operation.

[~Freedom~]

OK, Here's the link to this one (grab it quick, it might dissapear...)and maybe you folks can help me with this. http://http://www.horseville.com/php/view.php?id=114926

Lets, see, first of all its a 2003 horse, which means its now five years old, right? Almost. But she's advertising it with a weanling photo? Is that what that is? I won't comment on the splayed legs almost slippingout from under him, and what's with that sway back, but never mind...Its a stallion. At five hears old, it needs to be started undersaddle. Now here's where it gets tricky :

-He could easily get his ASHA Pony card [yet, it is 15.0 hands high]

- and has enough to show as a 3gtd pony.[it hasn't been broken to saddle, so we know about its its three gates, anyway, and, its 15.0 hands hands high]

- and has enough size and has "Lots of size behind him and has passed plenty to his foals" so which is it, a horse with size? Or, a pony.

Interesting that the whole site is down. I wonder why?

[acottongim]

Can someone please post the photos of the shire horse???? Even on the cached site, the photos won't come up for me????... I want to see what all the fuss is about (you can pm me the photos if you would rather.). THanks!!!

[~Freedom~]

Can someone please post the photos of the shire horse???? Even on the cached site, the photos won't come up for me????... I want to see what all the fuss is about (you can pm me the photos if you would rather.). THanks!!!


Even the cached has been cleared.

I also wonder when people do things like this with free horses?

http://classifieds.castanet.net/showproduct.php?product=181844&cat=14

[Little Indian]

Since we are positng pictures of our nice drafties, I thought I would add mine, although I know mine aren't that nice. Mom is a rescue draft type pony (probably welsh cob) and baby (who came inside of mom's belly when we rescued her) is Welsh Cob (?)/Belgian. I don't have any current pictures of them (bad owner, i know), but here they are. They definitely could have ended up a lot worse (PS, they both have lost a ton of weight from when these pictures were taken...they are still fat but not really obese). The chestnut (a gelding) is a 2 year old now and the bay is his mom
BTW, I don't really care what baysandgreys has to say about them, they obviously lead a very boring and unfufilled life.
Monday, on his first birthday. June 2006
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2661383690051923560klxhqQ?vhost=pets
Monday as a long yearling
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2934033810051923560LyoqOe?vhost=pets
Fiona
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2298372270051923560lTDPQa?vhost=pets
(by the way, she is no longer pastured because of how obese she became.)

[J Swan]

Here's my mutt that could be a poster child for the fugly blog - except that I don't think any animal is ugly. Really.

Half draft - Belgian. Downhill, obstinate, mutton withered, no neck, big head, and I'm the only one allowed to point that out. Anyone else can go suck eggs. :winkgrin:


I'd post a picture of the Percheron - but I don't have a wide enough lens.

[hundredacres]

JS, I think he's gorgeous!

[Claddagh]

I second that! He is lovely. I love his soft expression and super kind eye. He looks like a very happy and content boy! :)

[Thomas_1]

I'd post a picture of the Percheron - but I don't have a wide enough lens.:lol::lol:

Pretty pony too.

I knew one like that once, but it died :winkgrin:

[goeslikestink]

i have been away because my pc died i come back and ho what joy

sportshorsewnnabe-- i have read the whole thread and cannot view said piccys of state of condition of neds in question but if you have nothing to do with said site then how come the pics have all disaapeared
secondly i regard the whole thread as a ploy to enchance your sales of horses via
this bb which is not allowed to do -- read the rules
you have in my honest opnion and it is opnion tried to gain as much publicy for free
to state your wares-- horses a re a comodity a saleable item- and due this fact
you must be suffering if you cannot make sales due to horses welfare and condition
be aware that although you have pulled down your piccys that you site and animals can be view by other means and authorities-- if said horses are poor you have only yourself to blame if you get reported and they are then seize as being unfit for the job required and unfit to the job they are described as-- in other words your are a business and therfore if you are selling
horses that dont meet the descirbtion that they are sold for can be done--
under the trades descrition act,the business act and the sale of goods act
of which usa has simular rulings to uk--- and all your horses can be seized if welfare creulty state of said animal ie lack of care and management -- if found

[Phyxius]

Does anyone know where I can view the original pictures? In a more serious vein while I certainly don't think there is ANY excuse for poor treatment of horses (or any animal) a very common problem amongst drafts is EPSM. This can result in everything from "thin" horses to poor/no muscle tone to nuerological lamenesses. It's a simple enough problem to control if found and dealt with in a timely manner. If the owner of the horse IS on this board perhaps INFORMING them will help more than just bashing?

FYI, I haven't been able to see ONE photo of this horse so this is all just off-the-cuff.

[hundredacres]

Phyxius...welcome to the board ;)

[Phyxius]

BTW, to the poster of the chestnut cross; he is a handsome fellow and if anyone says otherwise fuh-get-a-bout-it. :D

[hundredacres]

Oops, I fixed that.

[Phyxius]

Me too :) :D

(Haha, I've "been here" since August of last year!) I don't get around to posting much though. Thanks for the welcome.

[J Swan]

I told ya - anyone who doesn't like how my horses look can go suck eggs. :D


Oh - found a picture of the Percheron. You wanna see a coarse head? Heads like this should be automatic disqualification as a breeding prospect. Keep in mind this horse is 3 years old. Again - downhill, mutton withered, giant head, big butt, big everything. Plus - I think he's one beer short of a six pack.

But I think he's going to make a fabulous fox-hunter - even with funky hind legs. But eventually he'll die so it's ok. :cool:

Again - y'all are just permitted to ooh and ahh. So, all together now...

(the kid in my picture is my niece who was spending the summer at Auntie J Swan's Farm of Perpetual Labor)

[Phyxius]

It may just be the picture, but he doesn't look fat from here JSwan. Good on you putting them kiddies to work. :lol:

[Riva]

well since people are posting pics...here is a picture of my filly's granddam (sire's dam). She is an English Shire and stood 18.3h. Unfortunately, she passed away shortly after foaling out the stallion that is my filly's daddy. I think she is very cool looking myself :)

http://www.buckinghorseplace.com/animals/antigone.jpg

[railijumper28]

The link says "file not found". Can you repost it?

Riva, that's a pretty cool pic.

[TB or not TB?]

I knew one like that once, but it died :winkgrin:

I also knew a chestnut that died. He even had hind legs!

[TB or not TB?]

http://www.buckinghorseplace.com/animals/antigone.jpg

:no: I knew a grey that died too.

[Phyxius]

The gray perch posted earlier is a lovely boy! So sorry about his debilitating and life threatening hind leg condition. :cry: That must really suck. ;) :lol:

I wonder what gibletsandcrabs' horses hind legs look like.

Thanks! That hind leg problem has been sooo troublesome. :sadsmile::sadsmile:

:winkgrin:

I think G&B has been hitting the horse tetanus shots a little too hard lately. :lol: (Did a search on posts started and that was one of them.):eek:

[MistyBlue]

Phyxius and acotton...sent you PM's.

[Kate66]

The whole farm website has gone down now? I saw a couple of days ago that the skinny photo had gone, but now the whole website?

[Thomas_1]

I also knew a chestnut that died. He even had hind legs! Gosh, that's a coincidence. I've had 3 of those in my lifetime.

I wonder if its genetic?

On second thoughts, maybe its infectious because I also know a grey and a bay that died with hind legs.

[Barn Dirt]

I've been following this thread since the beginning but I always seem to be 2 seconds to late to view any of the pics of the poor skinny boy. Does anyone have the pics? Can you PM/email me? I would greatly appreciate :)

[TB or not TB?]

Gosh, that's a coincidence. I've had 3 of those in my lifetime.

I wonder if its genetic?

On second thoughts, maybe its infectious because I also know a grey and a bay that died with hind legs.

It's a damn shame is what it is. :no: This disease is spreading unchecked to horses everywhere!! It's even crossed the pond...

[Thomas_1]

It's a damn shame is what it is. :no: This disease is spreading unchecked to horses everywhere!! It's even crossed the pond... Indeed I think we might have a more serious mutation: the horses I know that died had hind legs AND....... front legs too :no:

Its tragic and I really wonder what we should do about this. :confused: Its about time that Stallion owners were more responsible about breeding this trait.

[greysandbays]

Good Lord...:no:

Last time I met such a negative person as this, they sure had some funky personality online that wouldn't allow them any lack of stress and happiness and they eventually broke down completely, so they're dead now. :rolleyes:

Try some of this G&B: :D Doesn't hurt...swear it. :winkgrin:

(not saying be happy happy joy joy on every thread...but at least on one thread. Once. Just for sh*ts and giggles and to keep us on our toes. Not saying to throw hearts and flowers around...nobody likes that unless they're brain-dead...but seriously..."I knew a horse like that and it died?" when it's a photo of a horse standing or being ridden...not a photo of a horse impaled on something and without any majorly medical conformation faults?)

You're way too touchy if you think this is "negativity". IF you'd pull your head out of your nether orfice just once, you will also note that you have not quoted me correctly. The horse I referenced that died HAD HIND LEGS like this one. He died because those legs gave out. THAT would certainly come under the heading of a major conformational flaw. The Percheron gene pool isn't all that big and if both of these horses got those hind legs from the same ancestor it would be a point of concern to the owner if said owner was a sensible horseman/breeder (said owner, however, seems to have let that ship sail without her!) and might very well hint at history repeating itself.

And just as an FYI, speaking about how "not nice" I am, there are two things I have never, ever done in cyber space:
1) Link to SOMEBODY ELSE'S pictures/website so I could start a point-and-giggle session about somebody behind their back with stupid cows who only want to ohh-and-ahh over each other's horses; and
2) Go trotting off to another BB to have a point-and-giggle session about somebody's posts on here and slamming them by name.

YOU, missy, tried to claim that this board was not High School, but I reckon that claim that was a crock of BS.

Also, I know you're lying with your funky online personality anecdote. The internet hasn't been around long enough for anybody to die that way.

[TB or not TB?]

The horse I referenced that died HAD HIND LEGS like this one.


I think Thomas and I have pretty well beaten the proverbial hind-legged dead horse, but this still cracks me up. :lol:

[Thomas_1]

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/49105main_popcorn.jpg

The horse I referenced that died HAD HIND LEGS like this one. Now I've always thought I was a pretty good judge of horse's conformation. Indeed in part, I make a living out of it! But the photos of the Percheron were absolutely no use at all in terms of showing hind leg conformation. The horse wasn't even standing side on nor moving away. So for my own personal enlightenment, please do tell me PRECISELY what you're seeing as a major conformational flaw in the horse that you made comment on?

The Percheron gene pool isn't all that big
Well not quite right. In fact the Percheron was widely exported to all continents and as such not only is the gene pool sizeable but it has the advantage of wide distribution too.

and if both of these horses got those hind legs from the same ancestor it would be a point of concern to the owner Sounds to me like you think that a conformational flaw in hind legs is an a genetic trait rather than an inherited predisposition which is influenced in some way by both the sire and dam.

if said owner was a sensible horseman/breeder (said owner, however, seems to have let that ship sail without her!) and might very well hint at history repeating itself. But then again it takes 2 to tango. And I never saw anyone infer, imply or suggest that these horses were siblings and with the same dam and sire or any combination of the aforementioned.


YOU, missy, tried to claim that this board was not High School, but I reckon that claim that was a crock of BS.

Also, I know you're lying with your funky online personality anecdote. The internet hasn't been around long enough for anybody to die that way. Chill pill anyone??? :winkgrin:

And this is the Percheron Stallion I used to own. He's dead now though ;) But heck he remained sound even though he had that supposedly small gene pool (which isn't!!!!) and a set of hind legs! Dreadful he died at the tender age of 27 ... shucks we really must do something about those legs!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/percheron.jpg

[~Freedom~]

The horse I referenced that died HAD HIND LEGS like this one. He died because those legs gave out.

Just exactly did the hind legs do?

THAT would certainly come under the heading of a major conformational flaw.

Ummm no. Some people that choose to override their horse beyond what it was capable can produce the same result and guess what, it may have NOTHING to do with a conformation flaw so again I ask what did the hind legs do because the last time I looked they were not capable of holding a gun.

[Auventera Two]

You're way too touchy if you think this is "negativity". IF you'd pull your head out of your nether orfice just once, you will also note that you have not quoted me correctly. The horse I referenced that died HAD HIND LEGS like this one. He died because those legs gave out. THAT would certainly come under the heading of a major conformational flaw. The Percheron gene pool isn't all that big and if both of these horses got those hind legs from the same ancestor it would be a point of concern to the owner if said owner was a sensible horseman/breeder (said owner, however, seems to have let that ship sail without her!) and might very well hint at history repeating itself.


G&B - What exactly do you see in these hind legs that bothers you so much? I agree with Thomas (horror of horrors) that there is absolutely no way to acurately critique conformation in the two photos posted.

[MistyBlue]

You're way too touchy if you think this is "negativity". IF you'd pull your head out of your nether orfice just once, you will also note that you have not quoted me correctly.

Actually...I'm not really a touchy or emotional person at all. I'm pretty mellow and kind of happy-go-lucky. Apparently I'm not the only one who found the post excessively negative.
I have no idea what quoting correctly implies in this case since I highlighted your post, copied it and pasted it in my reply. Those are your words, not mine.
I also didn't resort to insulting...my head isn't up me arse, frankly I'm not that flexible. And I see you've implied my head is up me arse constantly. Gee, thanks. As I posted in the reply that seems to have frosted your flakes: Try this: :D (smiling)

The horse I referenced that died HAD HIND LEGS like this one. He died because those legs gave out.THAT would certainly come under the heading of a major conformational flaw.

That's well understood. I'm not the one who's been poking fun at all horses with hind legs passing away BTW. My point was: The horse in the photo is standing with it's hip cocked and hind legs splayed. Looks like a bored or pooped out horse to me. I have tons of photos of both my horses standing the exact same way. Their legs look like this horses...except their feet aren't as big. :winkgrin: (well, my mare is close with her size 4 shoes, the big clodhopper) Neither have had any leg issues of any severity...both are sound as a pound. The mare is retired after a long career in dressage and a short one as a teacher to me. Her legs are still sound as heck. Those photos of that Perch do not show anything like a major conformational deformity...they show a horse from angles where it's impossible to tell what the hind legs are doing.

The Percheron gene pool isn't all that big and if both of these horses got those hind legs from the same ancestor it would be a point of concern to the owner if said owner was a sensible horseman/breeder (said owner, however, seems to have let that ship sail without her!) and might very well hint at history repeating itself.


I have no idea what other Perch is being discussed here. I didn't notice where there were photos or a discussion of 2 related Perch's with fatal hind leg conformities. I didn't even notice aywhere where two related Perch's were being discussed at all.
"Said Owner" is probably dismayed at finding out you find her insensible. No negativity there. Nor insults.

And just as an FYI, speaking about how "not nice" I am, there are two things I have never, ever done in cyber space:
1) Link to SOMEBODY ELSE'S pictures/website so I could start a point-and-giggle session about somebody behind their back with stupid cows who only want to ohh-and-ahh over each other's horses; and
2) Go trotting off to another BB to have a point-and-giggle session about somebody's posts on here and slamming them by name.

I may have linked to other websites before...and probably will again. I don't do it here as a way to poke fun at anything. I have done it on TMP...which is kind of the point of the BB...to be funny or have fun. Actually...if I'm not mistaken one of the main rules over there is Be funny or be gone. I also don't refer to people as stupid cows unless they've earned that title...which means I know them personally. I've never slammed anyone by name...which isn't allowed on this BB or the other one. I have PMed some people a couple frequent posters' names...and that wasn't to slam but to protect those people I PMed because they're both notorious scam artists. And I've never trotted between BBs.
My only point to the reply that's apparently upset you was that: Over time on this BB I've noticed a few posters go w-a-y out of their way to be as mean and negative as others...whilst holding themselves up as an example of the epitome of horsemanship/humanity. Now all of us have probably typed out something negative once or twice...yet a quick perusal with the search feature and from what I've noticed over time without searching (and what many others have noticed) is that the majority of your posts seem designed strictly as insults, bashes and teeming with negativity. The only conclusion I can come to from that is:
a) you feel better by dragging other people down so as to stand over them
b) you are yearning for a trainwreck often
I'm no psychologist...but that's the only idea I ever get from most of the replies you give on threads. It's like seeing a little kid get a puppy for their birthday and gleefully waiting for the chance to say: "I had a puppy once...it was hit by a car and smashed to bits. Yours probably will be too." And then when someone calls you on your over-the-top (or under the bottom) replies...you reply back with insults to that person directly.

YOU, missy, tried to claim that this board was not High School, but I reckon that claim that was a crock of BS.

Also, I know you're lying with your funky online personality anecdote. The internet hasn't been around long enough for anybody to die that way.

I am a Mrs...not a missy. And I didn't "try" to claim...I did claim. In my view...this BB is not high school. My view or opinion is a crock of BS to you I guess...that's your view or opinion. Which is almost always negative. Not surprising there.
And I have no idea what you're accusing me of lying about. I don't lie. The only comment I can see that I made about anyone dying was an attempt at a funny sarcastic reply to your statement/earlier post when I replied that I knew a negative person once who was so negative all the time they died. I don't remember putting a timeline in that...or mentioning it was before the internet was invented.
But again...thanks a bunch for calling me a liar. So let's see...I live my life with my head up me arse and I'm a liar...and all for mentioning that you're pretty much a Debbie Downer in most threads In My Opnion.

[Chardavej]

I don't understand the hind leg comment either, I looked and looked at the pictures of him and didn't seem to be able to tell anything at all about the legs from the angles in the photos. The shots seem to me to be as such to where you really can't tell ANYTHING about the rear legs. I'm curious too what is wrong exactly. Do you have photos of the horses rear legs that you know that died from the way the were? Not starting anything just curious. Thank you.

[hundredacres]

I think they're being silly...;)

[Dalfan]

I also don't refer to people as stupid cows unless they've earned that title...

I could be wrong, and I'm sure G&B's will correct me if I am, but I think the "stupid cows" remark refers to you and your cohorts on TMP/Fugly that do this;

Link to SOMEBODY ELSE'S pictures/website so I could start a point-and-giggle session about somebody behind their back with stupid cows who only want to ohh-and-ahh over each other's horses

and this;

Go trotting off to another BB to have a point-and-giggle session about somebody's posts on here and slamming them by name.

I apologize in advance if I am incorrect, but thought that needed clarification.

[MistyBlue]

Well that's lovely if it's accurate...I can add being a stupid cow to having my head up my hind end and being a liar.
I just find the whole thing oddly funny. Now I have "cohorts" and we're all stupid cows for being on another BB. Yes, TLB on TMP does poke fun at certain posts on this BB and other BBs. I've never tried to hide who I am on either BB...I have the same name here and there. Erin isn't thrilled when people on here drag out trainwreck threads ad nauseum...that forum on that BB is specifically for poking fun at posts that pretty well reveal how off the wall some posts get with lies and threatening lawsuits and all sorts of odd things.
If so many people didn't log onto equine BBs and spin away into a fantasy world where they can lie about who they are, what they've done, threaten others or become 'brave' and insult everyone they possibly can...then there wouldn't be other BBs making fun of that.
It's kind of like the Satruday Night Live version of Weekend Update.
Seriously...how odd...I have cohorts. I sound like a cartooon bad guy. For pointing out when people fib or say something rotten for no reason other than to be rotten to someone else.
The person who posted a photo of the Perch was proud of her horse...it showed a happy, well cared for and sound horse. Someone else replies to the post directly with a strong hint that it's legs are the type that will make it drop dead like another horse they know. Even when the legs aren;t visibly clear at all in either photo and even though the horse is obviously sound. I stick to my anology of being happy to tell someone with a new puppy that it will probably be killed by a car because they saw it happen once.
It was just an off the wall comment, completely snarky and rude and begging for a reaction. I was the first who reacted...I also happen to be on TMP and I'm getting crucified for it by two people who happen to be a somewhat common subject over on TMP.

[wabadou]

...what is TMP?:confused:

[goeslikestink]

misty blue just for you

a guy walks into a doc.s and says doctor doctor i have a mince pie up my arse
so doctor looks-- sure is a mince pie up your arse he says

i will give you some cream for it---- haha

[Thomas_1]

Well that's lovely if it's accurate...I can add being a stupid cow to having my head up my hind end and being a liar. Heck, that's just greedy!!! :winkgrin:

I just find the whole thing oddly funny. Now I have "cohorts" and we're all stupid cows for being on another BB So does that make me a stupid cow tooooo (or did I mean moooo)

Yes, TLB on TMP does poke fun at certain posts on this BB and other BBs. Hey I had a look at that last night for the first time. Seems my Yard Manager is there but hadn't seen fit to tell me that the Stupid Cows have mentioned me!

Seriously...how odd...I have cohorts.
“To the legion of the lost ones, to the cohort of the damned.” - Rudyard Kipling
I also happen to be on TMP and I'm getting crucified for it by two people TWO?? Who's the 2nd one??

[goeslikestink]

whats tmp--- curious as i dont know

[MistyBlue]

TMP is The Manure Pile. TLB is The Litter Box, a forum on that BB. The litter box forum is specifically for venting about things that drive you nuts on other BBs that you aren't allowed to vent while still on that particular BB. However, you can't just vent...you have to be funny too. So IMO it's kind of like a skit on SNL in progress.

GLS...:lol: FWIW...I never did like mince pie...but now that I kow where it comes from I *really* don't like it. :winkgrin:

Thomas...I must be a stupid *and* greedy cow. Filled with mince. But hopefully without raisins. :eek:

I do seriously attempt to stay as neutral and non-snarky online as possible. I help out where I can, I ask for information, I enjoy learning new things, I enjoy sharing photos and ideas, I try to lighten up things with a bit of funny now and then and basically try to ignore those who come on seemingly specifically to play I'm So Much Better Online games. I'm me...never try to be anything I'm not and my online personality is no different from my actual personality in real life. There's a couple handfuls of people on here who've met me in person and know me...they can tell you I'm no sham. I'm as weird and kind in person as I am online.
The *few* times I ever attempt to "call it like it is" online is when someone has either started a scam that I recognize or someone is fibbing blatantly or someone has been supremely rude in a reply that was completely and utterly uncalled for in mature society.
So shoot me for replying like a stupid greedy mince-filled without raisins cow for having a slight issue with someone who posts this:
He's a better example of a draft horse type, but he sure has some funky hind legs. The last horse I knew with hind legs like that wouldn't stay sound and eventually broke down completely, so he's dead now. Wasn't my horse so I didn't investigate the whys and hows of the condition, but I know it wasn't fun for anybody involved.

ETA: He's got a rather coarse head for a good Percheron.
...in response to someone who was happily and proudly showing a photo of her handsome, well cared for and sound horse to share with everyone.
Especially when the person who posted that reply also posted on the same thread this:
Conformation may not be all that hard to figure out, but taking a picture that acurately portrays that conformation can be. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of pictures I've seen in which the horse pictured looked anything like it does in real life. Casual snapshots can make a good horse look like crap; professional trickery can make a common horse look exquisite.

So someone readily admits that correctly judging conformation from an online photo is next to impossible...so why then feel a need to tell someone the first quote? :confused:
Color me confused.

[Dalfan]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I was just clarifying a point of confusion on your part. :) I could be wrong about the reference to "stupid cows" since I'm not the one who wrote it. :lol:

[MistyBlue]

LOL...not shooting you Dalfan. :D It's not your fault I'm a cow. :winkgrin:

[goeslikestink]

mistyblue----- haha doh didnt think of tmp being that or tlb----- call me nieve
nah thick skinned like a cows hide -- haha mind you cows make milk makes cream
haha

[MistyBlue]

Could be AV2...however the snarking was directed towards someone who was not the OP. It was just a newer member who wanted to share photos of her riding draft online...mainly to show Savoy her Perch after Savoy posted photos of her Shire. Just two owners sharing drafty photos with the rest of us. I can't speak for Savoy...but I think Savoy was showing the difference between her Shire and the Shire from that ad. I'm not sure if you saw the Shire from the OP's post...but he was in poor shape and condition, tucked up like a greyhound, a very poor hind end, basically almost nonexistent back there. And filthy to boot...not that filthy is a sin but I think the point was why would someone use photos of a horse in poor condition, with poor physical attributes and very filthy as their Stallion Standing ad photo? He was thin...not what I'd call emaciated though.

Anywho...either way I'm now wondering if I should change my user-name to MistyMoo? :cool:

[Savoy 8]

Phyxius, I do believe my guy is beautiful, and a great example of what a Shire should look like... but not only was I out of town in PA (looking at some TB's I was thinking about purchasing) but I felt like it was a waste to try to talk to G&B because she obviously thinks she knows everything about every breed out there... actually I should restate that >>> Just plan thinks she knows everything!!!!!! It says she is 44 so maybe she is going through Menopause and is having hot flashes when she writes these responses??? who knows??? Who cares?? just someone please put her pill in a piece of cheese or something if she won't take it own her own!!!!!!!!!!

By the way your guy is lovely and it's a shame about those legs!!! how old is he??? you may want to go ahead and make funeral arrangements for when his legs give out on him.

* I personally didn't see anything wrong with his legs, I didn't even think he was standing funny or anything, but I do agree with Thomas ( i think ) that you can't do a proper evaluation from those pictures!!!

[Phyxius]

MistyBlue,
You're a lovely, greedy cow. :) I sent this poor woman horrible pictures of my dirty stallion in the snow. In a world of white he was the only thing brown. Oh my if you could have seen him today! All of the ponies are happier than pigs in a blanket today. We just had more rain in three days than we've had all summer. All horses are the same color now...brown. :) The baths my grey stallion and my cream mare are going to get this coming weekend are going to be ohhh so much fun.

Savoy, when I was looking for a mare (I don't like geldings as a group, some are great though, nothing personal) I looked at shires too. There are some lovely, lovely shires out there and if mud wasn't an issue I'd just love to have a horse with all that feather. (Though your guy looks handsome clipped too. :) ) Peanut is 12, will be 13 in '08. He was originally a logging horse, started very young. :( Then, he was an eventing horse in Mississippi. I do mainly dressage and hunter shows with him, as I'm sure you could tell by the pictures. I'll probably get out to an event next year.

You definatly can't tell anything from those pictures. One he's trotting at an angle towards the camera and in the other he's standing slightly angles with his hips cocked. (This was LATE Sunday after a two day dressage show, he was on the ground for three days.) He was a tired boy. - The show was the PVDA Ride For Life (www.pvdarideforlife.smugmug.com), where he got 4 firsts, even with his defective hind legs.

G&Bs I did NOT take your post seriously because I think you're full of crap.

[platinm]

G&Bs I did NOT take your post seriously because I think you're full of crap.

THAT is the smartest thing anyone has said so far.

[~Freedom~]

MistyBlue,
You're a lovely, greedy cow. :)


I quite like Misty and she can graze in my pastures any day, just make sure I don't get any sour milk!!!:lol::lol::lol:

[Coup De Des]

This is way more drama than I can handle. Geeze you guys.

:lol:


MistyBloooooooooo

um.. I've got nothing.. I just wanted to say it and giggle at how much fun it is to say.

[greysandbays]

Jesus in heaven knows I'm not defending G&B by any form or fashion whatsoever.....but....is it somehow possible that she posted those snarks about those draft horses to prove her point that the OP was needlessly snarking about the skinny black Shire? You know, like, if you can dish it out, you can take it too, kind of point?

Am I included with the cows? Cause I'd really rather be a heifer, if that's alright with all ya'lls. :D

Well, you aren't far off [Edited to clarify]: referencing the first paragraph, not your heiferness (or lack thereof). Everybody piled on somebody who wasn't even a participant in this board about what shitty horses (literally and figuratively) they had and how they were worthless horsepeople.

Then Savoy comes in all puffed up to show us what a "real Shire" looks like, apparently expecting us all to bow and pay tribute of admiration. So I pointed out a couple of things (true, btw) that were lacking and she and her clique of the moment threw a hissy fit, culminating in who ever it was posting the picture of her grey, in another attempt at eliciting the bow and tribute (with which the clique of the moment happily complied). Neither of these horses is perfect (or even anywhere near close to that), yet both are still STALLIONS and as such should be subject to a different level of scrutiny than somebody's pet gelding. Why should these people be exempt from the sort of degradation that they (and the clique of the moment) heaped on others? In fact, they should get it ten times more because they're getting it from the front where they can see it and concoct a plan of self-defense, unlike the original victim who got shot in the back.

Had this been a "Ohhh, look at my lovely draftie" thread, I would have raised an eyebrow in the privacy of lurkdom and held my piece. If it had been a "Help me with a critique of my draftie" thread, any participation in the thread on my part would have been a neutral, diplomatic outline of my opinion of the good points and bad points. But it was neither. It was a "Gather like a pack of wild dogs and tear somebody to shreds just for the fun of it and trumpet our wonderfulness to the world" thread. So, just for the fun of it, I thought I'd shoot some cyber rock salt into some very deserving backsides. Just to hear them howl and yelp. Which, of course, they did in spades. :D

They got their fun and liked it a lot. I got my fun, which they didn't like much at all. I reckon it's a lead pipe cinch that their original victim didn't like being the object of their fun any more than they liked being the object of mine.

[Phyxius]

I quite like Misty and she can graze in my pastures any day, just make sure I don't get any sour milk!!!:lol::lol::lol:

:lol: I don't like milk, but ice cream is good!

Granted I don't REALLY know anyone from this thread but, I like quite a few of you already! :yes:

Misty, you should have seen the boy after her rolled today. Oi! I tried to get him to roll in the grass before I put him in his paddock, but the grass was too tasty and grazing was his number one priority. Ugh.

[Phyxius]

So, just for the fun of it, I thought I'd shoot some cyber rock salt into some very deserving backsides. Just to hear them howl and yelp. Which, of course, they did in spades. :D

They got their fun and liked it a lot. I got my fun, which they didn't like much at all. I reckon it's a lead pipe cinch that their original victim didn't like being the object of their fun any more than they liked being the object of mine.

I think it's great that you've taken up creative writing, but perhaps you should do your research a bit better...

'Cause what I said was this...

Does anyone know where I can view the original pictures? In a more serious vein while I certainly don't think there is ANY excuse for poor treatment of horses (or any animal) a very common problem amongst drafts is EPSM. This can result in everything from "thin" horses to poor/no muscle tone to nuerological lamenesses. It's a simple enough problem to control if found and dealt with in a timely manner. If the owner of the horse IS on this board perhaps INFORMING them will help more than just bashing?

FYI, I haven't been able to see ONE photo of this horse so this is all just off-the-cuff.

So, take your salt and shake it. :lol:

[greysandbays]

I think it's great that you've taken up creative writing, but perhaps you should do your research a bit better...

'Cause what I said was this...


So, take your salt and shake it. :lol:

Honey, that ain't all you said. That was you, was it not, who posted a picture of a grey stallion with a facitious remark in order to get your round of oooohhh's and aaahhhh's?

[Savoy 8]

HAHAHAHA G&B's are you sure your 44??? haha if you actually read my posts, you would have understood that I actually don't have this Stallion in my posession anymore, he is currently being leased by a memeber of this board for breeding purposes. And my posting pictures of him was to simply express my interest in Shires, and knowledge the fact that I know "Andy's" ( the shire that started the original posts) sire, as he was from the same barn as my Shire Stallion's sire who was a 2 time national Shire Champion, when I bought Max ( my Shire ) I bought him from a Shire breeder who showed Illusion farms Mister Sampson and was there for Max's evaluation, by the ASHA (american shire horse association) as he was Sammy's first foal. Max was and is a shinning example of what a Shire is suppose to represent, besides the fact that I have shaved his feathers, and he doesn't posses a docked tail, which was MY choice since I purchased this horse at 4 months old.

I first posted pictures of Sammy (illusion Farms Mister Sampson) since there was some concern about "Andy's" conformation, being that the Shire horse association awarded Sammy with the National title twice, and he is the most prominate son of Garreg William. I thought he would be perfect to compare Andy to. But with all your knowledge of horses perhaps I should have first contacted you for your expertise and then let you call the Shire horse association and inform them of their mistake in allowing Sammy to cover and reproduce award winning Shire babies... My fault completely I will remember next time!! I posted pictures of Max ( my boy ) after I posted the ones of Sammy because YES I am proud of him!! his damn was given the title of National Shire Mare and his sire was giving the same for a Stallion twice... If what you say is true about perfection should only be allowed to reproduce then what the hell is your problem with my horse, his sire and damn were as close to perfect as you can get, and according to your line of thinking, perfection should produce perfection (more or less) Max was evaluted since he was Sammie's first baby. Though Shire's dont need to be approved... at the time Max foaled the Shire's were on the endangered species list (bet you didn't know that)... They declared Max and I quote " a carbon copy of his sire, in conformation and temperment " and yes, I am sure he has changed a little but not that much... if you would like to take it up with the association please do so I will be happy to get the number for you!

Other then that these so called "horse breeders" should be s**t upon in every aspect, not because I believe they are starving their horses, but because you should not post pictures of a horse in that condition as a stud, nor should you advertise a horse in the condition of the SF for sale... If you don't want people to comment on your website then don't put a website up, because you could have the best looking horse in the world and someone out there is not going to like it or you!!!! and is going to make negative comments!! Obviously they felt bad about the condition of the horse AFTER people started talking!! hmmm maybe they just don't know what they are doing?? in that case they shouldn't have a stallion, or be giving lessons... or maybe they think that he looks good??? either way that horse needs help and the way you change something is you take action and not sit there and Bi*ch about anything and everything!!!!!!!! like YOU!!! I have looked at some of your other posts and I am more than positive that you won't care or understand what I am writing mainly because you choose not to, which is sad that someone who is 44 yrs old has such a closed mind!!! It is true you don't ever say anything nice and all you seem to enjoy doing is stirring the pot... So I ask you WHO is it that is looking for recognition and attention??? I THINK IT"S YOU!!!!!!!!!!

[Coup De Des]

Holy Novel Writing Batman!

[Phyxius]

Honey, that ain't all you said. That was you, was it not, who posted a picture of a grey stallion with a facitious remark in order to get your round of oooohhh's and aaahhhh's?

Since you REALLY don't seem to be able to go back through the other posts let me quote my post that you're mentioning..

Savoy, you should be saying your guy is gorgeous...he is!

:lol: But, then I guess my percheron stallion is a bad draft horse too...

http://www.phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/188288367-M.jpg

http://phyxius.smugmug.com/photos/169307140-M.jpg

Now this was in re: to Savoy's post:

I said pretty guy because I didn't want to be like I have the prettiest Shire in the world!!

So, the remark I made was in reference to YOUR comment about the unworthiness of certain stallions to be considered "drafty" enough.

I have not posted ONE single negative thing regarding the stallion originally posted about, which is the reason YOU give for bashing my stallion and myself. I posted my pictures as commiseration for Savoy, as another draft horse stallion owner who is OBVIOUSLY looking to expand the publics views on what drafts (and stallions) can do.