100 day test [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

RTBSH

Oct. 23, 2007, 07:17 PM

I know that the 100 day test occurring in Ohio is jointly run by the AHS and ISR/OLD NA. What do other registries do (like the GOV and Holsteiner)? In Europe, those registries have their stallions approved in a 100 day test. What do they do here? Can they participate in this one? Does the GOV have their own? Do they not require it for the North American counter part. I think RPSI does not? What about Dutch, will they accept the scores? Does the GOV have a problem with stallions that passed the 100 DT run by ISR and AHS? Would their scores not be acceptable?

Sorry for asking I am a little confused and right now my horses are registered ISR OLDNA. I know that there is a lot of bitterness between two of the registries and I was wondering how this is resolved in terms of stallion testing.

Sonesta

Oct. 23, 2007, 07:25 PM

All the warmblood registries are invited to make use of the testing. I do know that GOV and RPSI accept the results of this testing. Don't know about the others.

Do know that Trakehners do their own thing.

DownYonder

Oct. 23, 2007, 07:31 PM

As Sonesta said, Oldenburg (GOV) accepts results from the North American 100 DT as long as it is run in the same fashion as the German 100 DT (similar format, similar training program, similar judging, similar scoring, etc.) It does not, however, accept the 30 day "short test" as anything other than a 30 DT. IOW, stallions who do only the 30 DT are not considered to have met the requirements for lifetime approval.

misita

Oct. 23, 2007, 07:31 PM

I have a stallion currently in the 100 day who is registered with Old NA. When and if he passes the 100 day, I will be presenting him to GOV and SWE in 2008. Based on his bloodlines he is able to be presented to both. I talked with each registry, GOV and SWE, individually about my horse specifically. I think each registry is different and each case is different. And... just because a horse is registered within a specific registry, doesn't mean he can be presented even within that registry. Each case is different on their requirements. GOV does not have a problem with the American 100 day test. They're more concerned with pedigrees and quality of the stallion presented.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

STF

Oct. 23, 2007, 08:27 PM

Swedish, Selle Francias, Trakehner have thier own approval system and do not require the stallion to do the 100DT.

misita

Oct. 23, 2007, 08:54 PM

That's right STF. You already told me that once about the SWE. So my stallion will go to the SWE stallion inspection in 2008 even if he doesn't pass the 100 day. They were particularly interested in him becase his Grandpa is their beloved Gauguin de Lully. But of course he'll still have to pass their stallion inspection.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

tri

Oct. 23, 2007, 09:19 PM

"know that the 100 day test occurring in Ohio is jointly run by the AHS and ISR/OLD NA."

Actually, it is OWNED by them in a for-profit corporation and isn't it interesting that they are making it harder and harder to go the performance route so that EVERYONE has to do their 100 day test?

misita

Oct. 23, 2007, 09:26 PM

ISR/OLD NA said the reason for that is because very few stallions actually completed the performance requirements yet they were still getting their foals registered. So your right. It is much harder to get your stallion approved through performance than send them to the 100 day. But I believe AHS will still let you register foals if your working on approval through performance? That is my understanding.:confused: With ISR/OLD NA you must make the next available 100 day test, after passing the initial stallion inspection, or your babies won't be registered.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

Touchstone Farm

Oct. 23, 2007, 10:50 PM

Ah, Misita, just ignore Tri. She's just conjuring up another conspiracy theory. You have to look at it as entertaining.

Anyway, good luck with your stallion. I enjoyed attending the testing a few years ago; of course, I didn't have any skin in the game and so could enjoy it as a spectator. I'm quite sure I'd be on valium if I actually had a stallion in the testing. :-)

buschkn

Oct. 24, 2007, 01:34 AM

While I am getting tired of hearing the anti-100DT and pro-tri tirades on these threads, it does seem to be a bit of a confilct of interest that the 100DT is owned by those two registries and that the performance requirements are very difficult to obtain.

I am not suggesting they shouldn't be difficult, a stallion should prove himself worthy of procreation. However, you can take a horse to the 100DT and he can do the equivalent of probably a Novice/Training level HT for lifetime approval, or you have only 2 years to reach the upper levels of FEI sport.

I have an interest in this as we have 2 colts we are hoping to raise as stallion prospects so I am trying to learn as much as possible. I am definitely not bad-mouthing the testing. I was at the midterm and intend to go to the final. I can just imagine how difficult it would be to turn over your horse for 100 days, but I can see why people choose to do so. To wait until a horse reaches FEI levels before being able to breed them seems a bit preposterous.

DownYonder

Oct. 24, 2007, 06:01 AM

I am not sure how AHS does things - one of the Hanoverian breeders will have to chime in here - but for Oldenburg (GOV), a young, newly licensed stallion can sire registered foals on his temporary license until he turns 6 years of age. If he hasn't completed the performance requirements by age 6, his temporary license expires until he does complete the performance requirements. That does pretty much force most stallion owners to opt for the 100DT, as it is very difficult for a 6 y/o to get the required scores in competition. Some owners still elect to go the performance route, though. Rosenthal was one stallion who didn't do the 100DT and lost his license until he finished the competition requirements.

I do so wish there were more tests, though. The ideal situation would be to have several 30 DTs scattered around the country each year, followed by a 70DT at least once a year. That would be much less grueling for the young stallions, and hopefully more affordable for the owners.

Cartier

Oct. 24, 2007, 06:37 AM

Going the performance route is very expensive... we figure about $20K a year and up... which makes the 100 DT a huge bargain for stallion owners.

Btw, there is nothing to say a stallion owner can’t continue on with the performance route after the 100DT... which would effectively demonstrate that the raw potential identified by the testing actually translates to performance success.

Vineyard Eventing

Oct. 24, 2007, 09:20 AM

AHS you receive a breeding permit for up to 2 years where the foals can be registered. Misita, I might have misunderstood the OldNA requirements, but I was under the impression that you would get your permit until the next test, and the babies WOULD be registered during that time.

My original plan (that backfired on me completely) was to present Worthy Opponent in an "off" year as a 4 year old, and then bring him to the test as a 5 year old, but those plans went off track when they canceled the test last year and I had to send him now or wait until next year to present him and the year after that for the test. That mixed with rumors that the test might be canceled for good and we might have to go to Germany to get stallions approved made me stay on track with presenting this year, and then going to the test this year. Otherwise I would have had one HECK of a gelding! ;)

I absolutely plan to stay on track with performance after the test. :) I think you'd be crazy not to! :D I feel the best exposure for any stallion is to be tearing up the competition scene! I just have no plans to have my stallion competing at Intermediate or Advanced Horse Trials and 3-Days by the time he's 6 so did the test as well! Also, gave me piece of mind to know that my stallion will have a lifetime license in case he ends up with a career ending injury.

Holy cow... 15 days to go!!! AHHHHH!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

STF

Oct. 24, 2007, 09:20 AM

Going the performance route is very expensive... we figure about $20K a year and up... which makes the 100 DT a huge bargain for stallion owners.

Unless the owner is capable of riding and training their own horse.

misita

Oct. 24, 2007, 09:40 AM

I'm sorry for the confusion. Regarding ISR/OLD NA, Vineyard Eventing is correct. When I bought Bravo as a weanling with intensions of going to the 100 day, the test he was to attend would have been held in 2008. So he would have attended his initial stallion inspection in 2007 and all his babies for 2007 and 2008 would have been able to be registered as long as I paid the $1,000 deposit toward the 100 day with plans to send him. If I would not make a commitment to attend then no babies would be registered. But they changed the 100 day date because they didn't have enough horses for 2006. That made it mandatory for Bravo to attend in 2007 as a 3 year old, if he wanted his babies registered.

But what of AHS? I thought you could still work on performance requirements and register babies? Is that only until the next 100 day as well?
After the AHS stallion passes his stallion inspection, is it now mandatory he attend the next available 100 day?

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

Tiki

Oct. 24, 2007, 10:03 AM

you can take a horse to the 100DT and he can do the equivalent of probably a Novice/Training level HT for lifetime approval, or you have only 2 years to reach the upper levels of FEI sport. Well, that's not quite true. If you take a horse to one, single Novice/Training level HT, then all you have is that point in time information on the horse. Nothing about it's temperament, rideability, trainability, not much on gaits or jumping ability. At the 100 Day Test, the horses are fully evaluated by the training team and by test riders for all of the above, AND, over a period of 100 days, not just one day, one test, one horse trial where they may have a good day or a bad day. Over 100 days the horses all show their ability to learn, adapt and improve and they for sure show their rideability and trainability. The gaits and jumping ability are also evaluated as they go along over the 100 day period, not just on one day, at one show, at one point in time. I think this is much more information, and much more valuable information than you could ever get at one point in time.

As far as performance goes, it is similar to what is done in Europe for stallions except that in Germany, stallions can be lifetime approved on performance by qualifying for the BuCha. We have no comparable competition here. The FEI Young Horse Tests are too new and we just don't have the trainers and level of competition here YET to be able to get a comparable level of confidence.

WRT FEI levels of showing - PSG to qualify. It does not give a real feeling for temperament - except that the horse will go in the ring and do the test, so the level required, to at least show fair potential is much higher. It is also a point in time (or really 3 points as 3 scores above a certain level, under 3 different judges is required) but at PSG level there's a lot of history behind it 'cause you can't get there overnight.

I don't know for sure about 'now', but the test I went to in 1998 had Dutch and Belgian WB stallions going through the test and the results were accepted by those registries. Puerto D'Azur is one good example. I saw his at the 1998 100 Day Test and he was just mind bogglingly gorgeous!!!! He was approved Belgian at that test.

From the Federation website:
The Federation of North American Sport Horse Registries currently is comprised of nine member registries: American Hanoverian Society; AmericanHolsteiner Horse Association; American Trakehner Association, Inc.; Belgian WarmbloodBreeding Association (BWP/NAD); Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association; KWPN of North America.;International Sporthorse Registry, Inc./Oldenburg Registry North America; Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society North American Division of Verband der Zuechter des Oldenburger Pferdes e.V. (GOV) (provisional member); North American Selle Francais Association, Inc.; and Swedish Warmblood Association of North America. As far as I know, all will accept the results of the US 100 Day Test for approval, although not all require it for approval. Some have higher passing scores to be approved, but they also have lower qualifying scores to go to the test, so it basically evens out in the long run.

Cartier

Oct. 24, 2007, 10:06 AM

Unless the owner is capable of riding and training their own horse.

I guess it depends on what your end goal is... e.g. a competitive FEI career versus minimal scores to qualify for a life time breeding license. Not saying one goal is necessarily better than the other, but they are markedly different.

NoDQhere

Oct. 24, 2007, 11:18 AM

I guess it depends on what your end goal is... e.g. a competitive FEI career versus minimal scores to qualify for a life time breeding license. Not saying one goal is necessarily better than the other, but they are markedly different.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. A stallion that is "rideable" enough to get to the FEI Level, with his owner, or a pro, for that matter, is going to be a horse with a pretty good disposition. It takes some time to get to PSG, and quite a few shows, so you are dealing with the stallion for a long time in many new and stressful situations, many times in the middle of breeding season. Even "just" obtaining the minimum scores, IMO, is a pretty impressive accomplishment. And once you have a horse to that point, I believe most people will go on with the horse. We did, all the way to Grand Prix with Meisterwind and our goal with Lion King is the same.

We are not anti 100 day test, the Performance route just works better for us. But as mare owners as well as stallion owners, we would not breed to a stallion who had "only" the 100 day test as his credentials. After all we are breeding riding horses and to us that means going to horse shows and being solid citizens.

Spike

Oct. 24, 2007, 11:51 AM

ok and what about a hanoverian verband colt? who is born in canada, branded Han CD and papers issued directly from the verband. Present him for licencing to the verband's inspectors as a 2 or 3yo and then what? Can he be sent to the 100dt and his result recognized for approval or he needs to go with performance route?

misita

Oct. 24, 2007, 11:52 AM

[/quote] Btw, there is nothing to say a stallion owner can’t continue on with the performance route after the 100DT... which would effectively demonstrate that the raw potential identified by the testing actually translates to performance success.[/QUOTE]

Bravo also will pursue a performance career after the 100 day test. One huge benefit of the 100 day IS, if your stallion is injured permanently, he has that lifetime license. If your taking the performance route and your horse does have a career ending injury, your without a performance horse and a approved breeding stallion.

Spike...I would not present the colt until he is 3 and try to time it that he is at least 4 when and if you choose the 100 day. I think 4 year olds and up have a tremendous advantage. And then, make sure he is well prepared in both fitness and training.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

Tiki

Oct. 24, 2007, 12:17 PM

Unless the CD Hanoverians have special rules, I can't imagine why they would not accept the results. American Hanoverian and Canadian Warmblood do.

Spike

Oct. 24, 2007, 12:22 PM

(from the Canadian hanoverian breeders club of eastern canada website)
The Hanoverian Breeders Club of Eastern Canada was founded in 1994 and is affiliated with Verband hannoversher Warmblutzuchter (The Society of Hanoverian Warmblood Breeders) in Germany.

The German Verband site contains information you need to know about breeding your Hanoverian mare, Stallions currently at Stud, mare and foal inspection prerequisites, and much more.

As far as I understand, the Canadian Hanoverian Breeders Club is directly related to the Verband, and does not have their own rules etc, but follows the ones of the verband. So, that's why I was asking, do the Verband recognize the american 100dt?

Galileo1998

Oct. 24, 2007, 12:23 PM

Didn't Rio Grande attend the 100 day test in North America?

Hi Jump

Oct. 24, 2007, 12:32 PM

I would speculate that Rio Grande was approved in the korung in Germany and indeed completed his 100 day test at November Hill. We do abide by the Hanoverian Verband for all Hanoverian Breeding in Canada and the American Hanoverian Society for all breeding in the united States. I think to be considered for stallion approval any colt born in Canada would have to be shipped to Germany for the Korung in the very least to stand in the Verband and most likely one would leave them there to do their 100 day test.

Synergy Sport Horses
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

arnika

Oct. 24, 2007, 12:41 PM

Yes, the Verband recognizes the American 100DT.

ahf

Oct. 24, 2007, 01:09 PM

I think to be considered for stallion approval any colt born in Canada would have to be shipped to Germany for the Korung in the very least to stand in the Verband and most likely one would leave them there to do their 100 day test.

But why? I think the only hurdle is that the VhW does not send enough stallion judges on tour in Canada, so you can't present a colt up there. But you can in the US. So a Canadian colt would only have to ship to the AHS stallion licensings in the US (and would therefore have to be 3, not 2), and then ship on to Paxton for the 100dt (if it's a testing year) or back to Canada and ship to Paxton in another year.

The cost to ship overseas to DE and then BACK, oh my Gott in Himmel....the $$$$!!!!

There's a Canadian stallion at the 100dt right now. Bred by the RCMP.

Vineyard Eventing

Oct. 24, 2007, 10:33 PM

I don't know about Canada, but the AHS stallion inspections are recognized by the German Verband and any stallion approved by the AHS is automatically approved German Verband as well. The stallion inspections for AHS include equal numbers of judges from the US and from Germany, I believe 3 of each if I remember correctly. So I believe the answer must be "yes" to the German Hanoverian Verband accepting the results of the US 100 DT.

No, the stallions do not have to go to Germany to be inspected, approved, or tested.

tri

Oct. 25, 2007, 12:37 PM

"While I am getting tired of hearing the anti-100DT and pro-tri tirades on these threads, it does seem to be a bit of a confilct of interest that the 100DT is owned by those two registries and that the performance requirements are very difficult to obtain."

Thank you. I am not anti - stallion testing. This year's test is looking very promising that old problems are under control, as well. My point is only to strip out all the crud and give american sporthorse breeders a quality and respected system.

Tiki

Oct. 25, 2007, 01:13 PM

Where's the yawn icon????

tri

Oct. 25, 2007, 07:58 PM

Tiki you must not have much of a life since you are so bored and yet, here you are. Would you like me to suggest some hobbies for you? I am sure I could come up with something!! ;)

Tiki

Oct. 26, 2007, 03:31 PM

I'm only bored with you, dear. Same old song, over and over again. Try a new one.

tri

Oct. 26, 2007, 06:44 PM

You spend a lot of time posting to me, so you must be quite interested in what I have to say, so THANK YOU!! You allow me to get my point across and open many conversations up to topics I am VERY interested in. I am forever in your debt and hope we have a continued long and productive relationship.

ljshorses

Oct. 27, 2007, 02:46 PM

My goodness, are we off topic or what????

jlther

Oct. 28, 2007, 12:06 AM

What does it cost to enter a stallion in the 100DT???
I have two colts that I am considering keeping as stallion prospects, but wondering if it is worth the time, money and effort.

DownYonder

Oct. 28, 2007, 08:08 AM

There are several people posting on this forum with stallions in the current test, so maybe they will come on here and tell us what the current fees are. However, I have seen people say in the past to plan on at least $10,000, not including shipping to and from the testing site.

tuppysmom

Oct. 28, 2007, 10:19 AM

I am not in the breeding game at this time, but I am interested in the 100DT. Is there a link to the site where I might find a list of the stallions being tested, etc?

misita

Oct. 28, 2007, 05:19 PM

The basic cost is $8,500. But then you have $500 for escrow acct. (in case you don't pay your bills), transportation, vet, farrier, travel for yourself for mid-terms and finals, photographer, X-rays for Hann, and on and on. I am over $17,000 so far. And that doesn't include money for the initial inspection. The few other SO's I've spoken to are close to that same figure. The nice part is that it's spread over the 100 days. So you don't have to come up with the entire bulk at once. Had I known it would cost as much as it has, I think I would have a gelding now. :winkgrin:

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

talloaks

Oct. 28, 2007, 05:28 PM

I am not in the breeding game at this time, but I am interested in the 100DT. Is there a link to the site where I might find a list of the stallions being tested, etc?

There is too much to cut and paste at this point so it is better if you go to this link for a lot of information on the 100 day test and also the current stallions:
http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=stallions_100%dy%stallion%test

YankeeLawyer

Oct. 28, 2007, 09:29 PM

Unless the owner is capable of riding and training their own horse.

But just one weekend at an A show is well over 1K, even if you do your own riding/training. You can spend tens of thousands to campaign a horse on the Florida Circuit alone. Plus, not many SOs do everything themselves.

tri

Oct. 29, 2007, 06:40 PM

"But just one weekend at an A show is well over 1K,"

no it isn't!! It is expensive to show but not that high for just ONE weekend!

risingstarfarm

Oct. 29, 2007, 07:54 PM

We figure that it costs at least $1000 per week to show. One week equates to 3 days, usually the boys are shown on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Occasionally, there are Saturday classes (YJ classes for example).

Remember, this includes:
Shipping
Stabling
Day Care
Training
Office Fees
Class Fees
Nomination Fees
etc.

PineTreeFarm

Oct. 29, 2007, 08:04 PM

You can make it cost whatever you want it to.

The last time I had a horse showing at A's on a regular basis I almost broke even for the year (2004). That horse was an A/A jumper and M&S classes have good prize money. Have my own trailer, no groom/day care.
I think where so many are racking up expenses is on the day care and coaching end.
Built up a cushion on prize money from one day shows with jumper stakes
and used to that to offset stabling and motel expenses at away shows.
If your horse is doing decently in rated divisions you should have prize money to offset some of your expenses.

risingstarfarm

Oct. 29, 2007, 09:27 PM

Yes, you can make it cost what you want to, and, you can offset costs with prize money.

However, this is a thread about the 100dt and presumably young stallions working on their performance requirements. Prize money doesn't really figure in until horses are jumping at least Level 5. My five year old stallion (who is fulfilling his performance via showing vs. the 100dt) is just now jumping level 5 regularly (and will move up to Level 6 next summer). Therefore, I've had to lay out a LOT of money so he could get miles AND show at age appropriate levels for his requirements. Yup, most of the money was spent on shipping and training - but, I wasn't going to get a young stallion up the levels by myself.

Personally, I can't wait for him to start paying for himself. It'll happen, right???? LOL.

KitterCritter

Oct. 29, 2007, 09:42 PM

Good job, risingstar, and congratulations to you and your young guy.

PineTreeFarm

Oct. 29, 2007, 09:58 PM

Yes, you can make it cost what you want to, and, you can offset costs with prize money.

However, this is a thread about the 100dt and presumably young stallions working on their performance requirements. Prize money doesn't really figure in until horses are jumping at least Level 5. My five year old stallion (who is fulfilling his performance via showing vs. the 100dt) is just now jumping level 5 regularly (and will move up to Level 6 next summer).

All the 3'6" Hunter divisions at A shows offer reasonable prize money. Horses that are successful in the IJF classes can do well at regionals and finals. Childrens/Adult jumpers offer good money for the entry fee invested.

risingstarfarm

Oct. 29, 2007, 10:06 PM

All the 3'6" Hunter divisions at A shows offer reasonable prize money. Horses that are successful in the IJF classes can do well at regionals and finals. Childrens/Adult jumpers offer good money for the entry fee invested.

True, but I'm still talking about showing a young stallion up the levels (whether it's hunters or jumpers) and it's just plain expensive.

I'd be really interested in knowing how many young stallions are actually out there showing and making any money doing it (or even breaking even). When I say young, I mean aged 3 - 6. I ask this, because I really don't know.

Out of curiousity, how old was Popeye K when he started to really make a name for himself?

The reason I set this age limit is because this is the age range of stallions that are either at the 100dt or under pressure to complete performance requirements.

Thank you for your kind words KitterCritter.

Vineyard Eventing

Oct. 29, 2007, 10:57 PM

I agree, it is VERY expensive to go the show route, whether you train and compete your own stallion or not. Do owners often just send a stallion to the 100 DT and then not compete them? I would think mare owners would want to see what the stallion does long term. I guess that would be my preference if I were a mare owner.

I mean, I am sending my stallion through the 100 DT as a precaution. He's an eventer, so the chances are higher that he could potentially do a career ending injury to himself before completing his requirements then say... if he were going the Dressage route... so I'd be crazy to not have that lifetime approval just in case. But I do plan to compete him after, so yeah, I think you could save money going the performance route as I would imagine one way or the other, your stallion is likely to be competing after the test is completed anyway.

And for the record... no money to be made in eventing....:cry: I'm a little jealous! Breaking even by winning prize money!!!! Don't I WISH!!!!! :D

YankeeLawyer

Oct. 30, 2007, 07:05 AM

"But just one weekend at an A show is well over 1K,"

no it isn't!! It is expensive to show but not that high for just ONE weekend!

Really, would you like to see my bills? If you have to travel and are doing so with an A show barn, it can easily run that much if you show in GP or in a couple of hunter divisions.

Of course, it would be less if the show is a local A or you trailer yourself and do all your own work. But that is not how people typically show on the A circuit.

YankeeLawyer

Oct. 30, 2007, 07:14 AM

All the 3'6" Hunter divisions at A shows offer reasonable prize money. Horses that are successful in the IJF classes can do well at regionals and finals. Childrens/Adult jumpers offer good money for the entry fee invested.

Dressage shows do not offer any prize money worth talking about.

And to get a horse to the point of winning in the 3'6 and 4 foot divisions consistently typically costs a lot of money. I should know because my family did it for 20 years and had a number of year end champions. I don't think there is an A show on the East Coast from Vermont to Florida that I haven't shown at at some point, as well as quite a few farther west.

Trailering in and doing all your own work also isn't a viable option for many who have demanding F/T jobs to pay for all of this. And while I love caring for my horses and keep them at home, my idea of fun is not to show up unassisted at a major show with a green bean stallion.

YankeeLawyer

Oct. 30, 2007, 07:20 AM

Tiki

Oct. 30, 2007, 01:33 PM

My trainer took my young, green, 4yo to a big jumper show at Lexinton. Voila, $1000 out the window just to get her a little exposure. Yikes!!!!!

CBoylen

Oct. 30, 2007, 09:02 PM

Out of curiousity, how old was Popeye K when he started to really make a name for himself?

That depends whether you mean breeding or showing I think. Showing, he was pretty well known by the end of his first FL circuit with Tommy, so, 6.
But he'd already bred over 250 mares in Canada by then, so up there I think he was a pretty big name as a stallion from 3 on, which is when he won the Cup and they started breeding him.

As far as the showing issue, with a top hunter you can break even or come out ahead by a small amount on your show bill. That is, the entries and stall. Only. You cannot ever break even on prize money with your training, board, riding, shipping, and daycare. The only way you can do that is with a good sale or a very successful stallion who gets a lot of bookings.
The jumpers can maybe eventually offset their competition costs, but only if they're very good, and it takes a lot of investment to get them there.

tri

Oct. 30, 2007, 09:05 PM

YankeeLawyer

Oct. 30, 2007, 10:18 PM

Yes, it is also like breeding. If you can't collect a stallion yourself, it costs you more, if you can't give your mare a shot to short cycle, it will cost you more, if you can't teach your babies to lead, tie, pick up their feet, it will cost you more, if you can't break your 3 year olds, it will cost you more.

I ride & train & show. I have my own trailer & a motor home. I do my own grooming but don't braid well so that is hired (broke my wrist too badly - riding of course). Most of the people I know that OWN their own horses AND show at the GP level have their own trailers & do a lot of their own work/ride/train/etc. They aren't the ones "sending the horses out".

Even if you do all of your own work, it is not free. Your time is worth money. It would cost me more to do everything myself (and hence not working in a non-horsey capacity during that time) than to hire someone to do it.

I know few pro GP riders who own their own horses, let alone own, compete, and stand a stallion. I know quite a few who have well-heeled clients who provide them with rides.
Same with the top hunter riders. They are catch riding, and only occasionally own their own mount.

Plus, trailers and motor homes represent a significant investment, and you have to take into account depreciation and the cost of gas.

risingstarfarm

Oct. 30, 2007, 10:18 PM

Thanks CBoylen for the response on Popeye K. I always think of him as a great example of a successful breeding and showing stallion - interesting to know this information about him.

arnika

Oct. 31, 2007, 11:50 AM

risingstar, the only thought I had about Popeye K was that, if I remember correctly, he did not have to go through a 100 DT to be licensed and approved Canadian WB. Just a performance inspection. So in Canada he was shown, won the Cup and was approved for registered breeding as a 3yo with much less expense than is required here in the USA.

And look how well that has turned out for him and his owners!

happy mouth

Oct. 31, 2007, 04:20 PM

I believe Popeye's first year of showing in Florida was in Ocala. I remember seeing him here and thinking what a well behaved boy he was.

CBoylen

Oct. 31, 2007, 06:07 PM

I believe Popeye's first year of showing in Florida was in Ocala.
He did a couple of shows in Ocala as a pregreen with Scott Hofstetter, but that was the year before he came to Tommy's to do the green conf. Not many people knew him in the US before his first year, so I didn't count the pregreen shows as the point at which he started to make a name for himself showing when I wrote my response.

tri

Nov. 1, 2007, 11:37 PM

"Even if you do all of your own work, it is not free. Your time is worth money. It would cost me more to do everything myself (and hence not working in a non-horsey capacity during that time) than to hire someone to do it.

I know few pro GP riders who own their own horses, let alone own, compete, and stand a stallion. I know quite a few who have well-heeled clients who provide them with rides.
Same with the top hunter riders. They are catch riding, and only occasionally own their own mount.

Plus, trailers and motor homes represent a significant investment, and you have to take into account depreciation and the cost of gas."

....but I would be riding and showing a horse whether mare, gelding or stallion. And you don't have to be a "pro" to ride at the GP level. And there are a TON of amateur owners riding their own horses at all those little 10k, 15k and even 25k GPs on the "A" circuit.

So, if you want to be that kind of horse owner - the one that just pays the bills but doesn't ride, train or care for your own horses, then, no, you won't be as competitive as those that are doing those things.

I've posted this before, in europe, they can be more competitive with bringing horses to market partly because they are farmers and they are splitting the cost of their land, equipment, labor, etc with a cash product like pigs, etc instead of like the american breeder that is often living on a little hobby farm with all expenses applied to just horses.

To be more competitive, I'd suggest riding & training your own horses and raising pigs too!! ;)

Edgar

Nov. 2, 2007, 12:56 AM

"To be more competitive, I'd suggest riding & training your own horses and raising pigs too!!"

Ha, that is funny but true.

Come to think of it;We ride our own (mostly) and we do not have pigs but besides horses we do produce also Beef (cow/calf operation), Commercial Strawberries, Honey, Hay and for our own and employee use lots of varieties of fruits and vegetables. (Persimmons and pommegranates right now as we are finishing up the apples and figs)

Galileo1998

Nov. 2, 2007, 07:00 AM

arnika

Nov. 2, 2007, 08:39 PM

Thanks, Galileo. I didn't know that.:cool:

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 3, 2007, 12:02 PM

To be more competitive, I'd suggest riding & training your own horses and raising pigs too!! ;)

In fact I do much of my own work. But it is absurd to think a working professional could do all the things you list and excel at both at the highest levels. I have almost no free time, and aim to use my time as efficiently as possible. It makes no sense for me to be mucking stalls or trailering my horses places, for example, none at all. Not that I never do these things -- I enjoy taking care of my horses. But when I do, I am not under the illusion that it is saving me any money. Again, you are missing the point about time/value. It does NOT save me money to do these things myself; I would lose a considerable amount of money by doing so frequently. My point is that I would be less competitive, not more competitive, that way.

Further, I know of exactly NO ONE who has a demanding professional job and does all of their own work, riding, training, etc. People are usually pretty amazed that I do what I do and manage a farm as well. I don't purport to be able to do all the farm stuff without help, however.

By the way, regarding the farmers in Europe, I have some friends there in that situation who are extraordinary horse breeders. They also come from considerable family wealth and own their properties outright -- they inherited them. I also have no idea what government incentives there are in Europe to farm the land. You can't just transplant their model wholesale and expect it to work here; there are a lot of variables.

Sonesta

Nov. 4, 2007, 04:16 PM

Does anyone yet know who the guest riders will be this year?

misita

Nov. 4, 2007, 04:40 PM

The Ground Jury is
Dietrich Felgendreher US
Cord Wassmann GER
Gerd Zuther US

The Guest Riders

For Dressage
Jessica J. Tate
Verena Stock
Fred Weber

For Jumping
Mike Patrin Leichle GER
Ryudy Leone

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

talloaks

Nov. 4, 2007, 05:16 PM

What are the percentages given by the test riders? Helmut ? and the Ground Jury??? I know it must be stated somewhere but I can't recall. :eek:

Okay I found some info on the ISR/OLDNA website but still don't know which percentages are given by the different test riders and the ground jury. Anyone want to take guess?? this does not cut and paste very well so I suggest if you are interested to go to this link:
http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=stallions_100%dy%stallion%test

Sonesta

Nov. 4, 2007, 05:42 PM

Oh, it will be wonderful seeing Rudy Leone again!

And I am sad that we will not have Manfred Lopp. But Gerd Zuther is wonderful!

misita

Nov. 4, 2007, 07:03 PM

For the scores, I believe Helmut and his riders account for 50% of the score and the guest riders and ground jury the other half. That's what I think but I can't remember where I saw or heard it.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

RTBSH

Nov. 4, 2007, 07:51 PM

I wish the best of luck to every owner of the stallions being tested this week

<<<<cheers to a job well done>>>>>>>>:D

SCFHan

Nov. 4, 2007, 10:49 PM

Don't post often, but agree with Sonesta. Gerd Zuther is great. I remember him at November Hill farm before it was sold back in the early 90's. I wish the best of luck to the owners and horses as well. I can't imagine the stress the are under. Warm wishes to Kate and Fielding!

Dune

Nov. 5, 2007, 02:44 AM

Isn't "JJ Tate" one of Robert Dover's hopefuls???? :confused: If so, I would just hope to have someone with more experience, is that too hopeful?

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 5, 2007, 06:41 AM

Isn't "JJ Tate" one of Robert Dover's hopefuls???? :confused: If so, I would just hope to have someone with more experience, is that too hopeful?

I think JJ Tate is more than qualified to be a guest rider, and being on that TV show is not exactly the highlight of her career.

DownYonder

Nov. 5, 2007, 08:43 AM

Agreed. She has her USDF gold medal and was selected to represent the U.S. at the World Championships for Young Dressage Horses, plus she has experience with stallions – she trained the Hanoverian stallion Donavan to Grand Prix and is now training the young Oldenburg stallion Rosall.

And, as said earlier - best of luck to all the participants. I can't imagine the stress the owners are going through right now.

enavant

Nov. 5, 2007, 05:50 PM

JJ is indeed qualified. I know her from the Young Dressage Trainers Symposium and she is a good rider and horseman. She did not in fact train Donovan to Grand Prix that was done by George Williams but, that is no slight to JJ. I hope everyone will make her feel welcome as she emailed me that she is very excited by the opportunity and doesn't know anyone there (other than me and possibly Scott Hassler if he can make it) and she hasn't done anything like this before.
See everyone going in a couple of days!!!

ljshorses

Nov. 5, 2007, 06:05 PM

I will be there. I am so excited to attend and wish everyone the best of luck!!!

copper bay farm

Nov. 5, 2007, 08:11 PM

I think actually it's good to see that the three guest dressage riders are all experienced in riding young horses. JJ showed in the YHC in Germany this summer, Verena Stock rode Vanessa Carlson's young mare to reserve champion 4yo and 5yo in the national young horse dressage championships in Lexington the past 2 years, and Fred Weber is of course very experienced as well. I think there is often as much an art to riding the young horses well as there is to doing GP classes.

Just my $.02. :) I'm looking forward to the trip and meeting everyone! We are flying in Wednesday night!

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 5, 2007, 10:59 PM

I think actually it's good to see that the three guest dressage riders are all experienced in riding young horses.

Agreed. I think it will go well!

Dune

Nov. 6, 2007, 02:50 AM

[quote=enavant;2783161]JJ she is very excited by the opportunity and doesn't know anyone there...... she hasn't done anything like this before.
quote]

How old is she?

DownYonder

Nov. 6, 2007, 06:17 AM

JJ is indeed qualified. I know her from the Young Dressage Trainers Symposium and she is a good rider and horseman. She did not in fact train Donovan to Grand Prix that was done by George Williams but, that is no slight to JJ.

Ah, thanks for the correction. I knew George had trained him early on, but I thought that JJ took him the rest of the way. No matter, she can come ride my horses anytime!

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 6, 2007, 11:29 AM

JJ she is very excited by the opportunity and doesn't know anyone there...... she hasn't done anything like this before.

How old is she?

What is your deal? What difference does her age make? She is at that age where she is young and stunning and you can't really tell whether she is 24 or 34. I have met her and she is lovely, and frankly I have no idea how old she is.

Tiki

Nov. 6, 2007, 02:36 PM

Yeah, what is the deal? Many of the European registries use younger riders of Young Horses as test riders. Why would you have to be 75 to eveluate the young stallions?

tri

Nov. 6, 2007, 03:00 PM

talloaks

Nov. 6, 2007, 03:11 PM

I just realized that the 3 test dressage riders all work for AHS breeders!! Also Cord Wassmann GER is with the Hanoverian Society and Gerd Zuther US is a AHS breeder also!!

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 6, 2007, 10:23 PM

"You can't just transplant their model wholesale and expect it to work here; there are a lot of variables."

Of course there are variables - have you read all my posts about adapting the euro system so that it fits the AMERICAN marketplace better?......and the resulting nasty responses from all the pro -euro registry folks who want to hang on that system instead of designing our own...and yet, here we are: "there are a lot of variables" and "you can't just transplant their model wholesale and expect it to work here".

Tri, your arguments are all over the map. Go reread your own posts. If I respond to one point, you change the issue, take some aspect of my comment out of context, and say things that often have no basis in fact. You are like a moving target. I could go round and round with your comments all night, but really it would make no difference as you have one tune that you keep repeating and can't seem to get (or refuse to consider) many of the comments by others that do have some validity.

YankeeLawyer

Nov. 6, 2007, 10:28 PM

I just realized that the 3 test dressage riders all work for AHS breeders!! Also Cord Wassmann GER is with the Hanoverian Society and Gerd Zuther US is a AHS breeder also!!

How is it that JJ works for a Hanoverian breeder? She is based at Goodness Ridge and has her own business and training clientele. Anyway, are you suggesting that they can't be objective? Because I think that is silly. I breed Hanoverians but happen to love many breeds of horses (or I guess I should say horses approved by various registries, because Hano, Dutch, etc., are not breeds, per se). It just doesn't make sense for me to pay the fees of multiple registries and have to deal with multiple inspection schedules, etc. Besides, many, many horses with near identical papers in fact may be registered with different registries. For example, my Sandro Hit x Donnerhall mare is Hanoverian, but many from this cross are Oldenburg. So?

sylvan farm

Nov. 6, 2007, 11:03 PM

Actually, Cord Wassmann isn't just 'with the Hanoverian Society'. He is an independent and internationally renown FEI judge. He judges FEI competitions, is a member of their appeals committee, participates in stallion licensings, was a former competitor and breeder. He has judged many different types of competitions and breeds, all over the world. Yes, he does participate in stallion licensings for the Hanoverian Society, but it is a small, albeit important, part of his professional work.

Just wanted to clarify a little....

DownYonder

Nov. 7, 2007, 05:59 AM

I just realized that the 3 test dressage riders all work for AHS breeders!! Also Cord Wassmann GER is with the Hanoverian Society and Gerd Zuther US is a AHS breeder also!!

And your point is?

Besides, Vanessa Carlson (who owns the mare Verena Stock showed) also breeds for ISR/ONA. Dieter Felgendreher - a member of the ground jury - is on the advisory board for ISR/ONA and is an ISR/ONA stallion inspector.

DownYonder

Nov. 7, 2007, 06:01 AM

talloaks

Nov. 7, 2007, 07:49 AM

And your point is?

Besides, Vanessa Carlson (who owns the mare Verena Stock showed) also breeds for ISR/ONA. Dieter Felgendreher - a member of the ground jury - is on the advisory board for ISR/ONA and is an ISR/ONA stallion inspector.

My point Chris is that most of the riders and ground jury are associated with the AHS. I am well aware that Dieter Felgendreher is with the OLDNA. Don't know the connections with the jumper riders other than one if from Germany. Heavily one sided I would say.

ahf

Nov. 7, 2007, 08:14 AM

Let’s go down the list

Jump riders:
Rudy…he has ridden every type of warmblood on the planet, right now I think he is coaching a lot of juniors on ponies.
Mike Patrik (can’t remember the last name) competes Holsteiners, mostly, in Germany. I’m sure at some point in his life he’s sat on a Hanoverian.

Dressage
Fred – rides a lot of Hanoverian stallions – when the test ride for the MPT was being “test-driven” for the AHS, he was our guinea pig. He did a great job and I’m thrilled to see him on the list.
Yvonne – rides for a barn that has both AHS and ISR/Old stallions. More ISR/OLD stallions than Hanoverian ones. The mare she did so well on was an IRS/Old.
JJ – The Costello’s are ONE of her clients. They own a Hanoverian stallion and a (gasp!) imported GOV stallion

Ground Jury
Gerd – AHS
Cord – FN
Dieter – ISR

Your effort to cast aspersions is really, really slimey, disappointing and completely depressing.

I’m leaving for Ohio. Y’all have at it and do what you all do so well, which is sling mud. I’m so sorry I looked at this board before I left.

Tiki

Nov. 7, 2007, 09:08 AM

I'm sorry, but I just can't believe some of the things some of you get your panties in a twist about. But one thing I will believe is that some of you would probably sling mud at God. Get a life! Get a grip! These are all very well known INDEPENDENT people who have been contracted to test ride these horses.

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 7, 2007, 09:35 AM

This list appears to be of much higher quality than in the recent past.

Sonesta

Nov. 7, 2007, 10:19 AM

Just a little blurb on quality. At the last testing there were some things that happened that forced them to scramble to find guest riders. Most of the big names were already booked elsewhere and couldn't do it. I'm sure this year they made certain that didn't happen again. The aim is always top quality for guest riders and for the most part they have always managed to do that.

Can't WAIT to see Rudy again. He is a love.

Dune

Nov. 7, 2007, 10:55 AM

What is your deal? What difference does her age make? She is at that age where she is young and stunning and you can't really tell whether she is 24 or 34. I have met her and she is lovely, and frankly I have no idea how old she is.

My "deal"? A bit rude, I think. :yes: I just thought that they might have someone more experienced, like the other guest riders, but I guess you've got to start somewhere. I mean, you get to be on the "find a dressage star" show but then you're already established? It just seemed to be contradictory. :confused: I cast no aspersions on the girl, never even heard of her before this. So, what's "your deal"? :lol::winkgrin: