Rant: What does my weight have to do with my ability to manage your stable?

[eqsiu]

So I could stand to lose 50 pounds. I know that. But it has no impact on my ability to feed horses, muck stalls, clean tack, etc. I have had to curtail my physical activity (i.e. get 2nd job) in order to pay medical bills (not mine). If I was applying for a riding position, I could understand it. But why would you ask about weight in a first contact for a stable manager position?

[TropicalStorm]

I guess if they were worried about your physical ability to do the job, that's one thing. If you've demonstrated that you are quite capable of doing it, and doing it well, it should have absolutely zero importance.

[eqsiu]

I guess I don't feel like 210 is so grossly obese for a 5'6" built-like-a-brick-shithouse woman that it would send off warning bells to a prospective employer.

[Kellye]

You are NOT grossly obese, just a little "fluffy on the outside, sturdy on the inside". And I'll just bet you can toss a bale of hay further and faster than some little skinny mini who is only 5'2" and weighs 125. And you can push a full wheelbarrel of horse crap uphill without it tipping over, can't you?

I'm about your size and I get so sick and tired of all the "skinny" people assuming that just because we have some weight we are less than perfect and can't do the same things they can do.

Isn't that discrimination?

[DopyDgz]

If it is any consolation, I was turned down for health insurance (last job was not required to offer COBRA) because I overwieght at 5'10" and 165 pounds :eek:

[sirena_chaucer]

If it is any consolation, I was turned down for health insurance (last job was not required to offer COBRA) because I overwieght at 5'10" and 165 pounds

You're very slender! I'm 5'10 and 178...I guess I'm morbidly obese? lol
*rolls eyes*

[J Swan]

Because people are idiots.

The only thing they are supposed to ask is if you have any physical limitation that precludes you from performing certain tasks. Those tasks might be lifting 50 lbs, or doing cartwheels - etc. If lifting 50lbs is a daily part of the job - and you can't lift 50lbs because you have a bad back - well - it's ok to deny you the job.

No - it wasn't ok to be denied a job based on your physical appearance. But the fact is that a lot of people in the world still discriminate. With another employer - they may not have wanted hispanics. Or gays. They just phrase the questions vaguely enough to get the information they want - without you having enough evidence to accuse them of discrimination.

And weight isn't covered anyway. But it's not as if we all have a sign on our backs stating our BMI - many people just assume that anyone who isn't very slender is...... obese, lazy, unhealthy, doesn't bathe, etc. There is no middle ground - you're either slender or fat.

I doubt you'd want to work for someone like that anyway - consider yourself lucky and move on.

[Lucassb]

Did they simply ask about weight and height or make a comment that you would not be considered based on your answers?

The reason I ask is that they may well have HAD a smaller person who ended up not being strong enough to get the job done, and may actually be looking for someone bigger and stronger!

[J Swan]

If it is any consolation, I was turned down for health insurance (last job was not required to offer COBRA) because I overwieght at 5'10" and 165 pounds :eek:


Uh - that isn't overweight. That's within the normal weight for a person of your height.



Sirena - you are - barely - into the "overweight" range. Like a couple of pounds.

[class]

You are NOT grossly obese, just a little "fluffy on the outside, sturdy on the inside". And I'll just bet you can toss a bale of hay further and faster than some little skinny mini who is only 5'2" and weighs 125. And you can push a full wheelbarrel of horse crap uphill without it tipping over, can't you?

I'm about your size and I get so sick and tired of all the "skinny" people assuming that just because we have some weight we are less than perfect and can't do the same things they can do.

Isn't that discrimination?


i think that obese chip on your shoulder is keeping you from realizing that maybe they asked her weight because they didn't want to hire a 125 "skinny mini" who couldn't do the job.

i also want to know how you feel okay to call people skinny minis when i would never dream of calling you a chubby tubby?

[Lori B]

Was this in a phone conversation or in person?

If someone asks me what I weigh, I say, I have no idea, what do YOU weigh?

class, no one on this thread wants to hear about the ongoing tragedy of trying to find size 4 pants. Go peddle your 'skinny people are oppressed too' sack of woe somewhere else. :-)

[Bayou Roux]

If I was applying for a riding position, I could understand it. But why would you ask about weight in a first contact for a stable manager position?

If this was a first contact, do you know for sure that they weren't considering riding as one of those "occasional other duties" of the stable manager?

[Trixie]

class, no one on this thread wants to hear about the ongoing tragedy of trying to find size 4 pants. Go peddle your 'skinny people are oppressed too' sack of woe somewhere else. :-)

Um, frankly I found the "skinny mini" comment a little appalling too. I'm small, but I can work hard and get the job done. It IS a double standard - but can you or can't you do the job?

And that's sort of the key - either you can do the work, or you can't. If you can do the work the same as anyone else, they're not allowed to discriminate against you because of your weight and I believe one could file a lawsuit for denying you the job on those grounds. If your weight is in fact preventing you from doing the job at hand, no, they're not going to hire you.

I don't know how the employers phrased the question to the OP, so take this with a grain of salt.

[Nicker]

Um, frankly I found the "skinny mini" comment a little appalling too. I'm small, but I can work hard and get the job done. It IS a double standard - but can you or can't you do the job?

I did as well. I worked my ass off, literally, this summer and lost over 28 lbs. I still have 5 more to go to reach my goal, but I feel better. Was I obese before? No, but I can do more and go longer then when I was carrying the extra "fluff".

The only question a potential employer should ask is whether or not you can do the job.

[MistyBlue]

I'm also just as tired of hearing people who aren't overweight being bashed by others too. :sigh: That's about my height and weight...and I work all day every day outside doing hard physical labor. And I don't blow away in the wind...I don't have to run around in the shower to get wet...I can unload and stack a few tons of hay in no time...I don't have to hold onto the sink to blowdry my hair...I don't disappear when I turn sideways, I'm not even considered skinny...I don't throw up after every meal...etc, etc.

To the OP...is the job offering med benefits or workman's or is it under the table work? Asking weight is something they should consider doing if they are offering medical.
Otherwise...if you're not morbidly obese and not a health risk and can do the job as required...then weight shouldn't have a bearing on it IMO.
It isn't right to assume that just because someone isn't a certain height to weight ratio that they are unable to do the job. Fitness has little to do with clothing sizes.

[Denzel]

You are NOT grossly obese, just a little "fluffy on the outside, sturdy on the inside". And I'll just bet you can toss a bale of hay further and faster than some little skinny mini who is only 5'2" and weighs 125. And you can push a full wheelbarrel of horse crap uphill without it tipping over, can't you?

I'm about your size and I get so sick and tired of all the "skinny" people assuming that just because we have some weight we are less than perfect and can't do the same things they can do.

Isn't that discrimination?

I personally agree with whoever said that you calling someone who is 5'2 and 125 a "skinny mini" is just as bad as anyone calling you something derogatory.

By your reasoning, because I am 5'5 and 120lbs, that should mean that I can't toss a bale of hay or push a wheelbarrow of poo? Well, I actually work at the barn to help pay for my lessons, and I can throw a bale just fine, push a wheelbarrow just fine and I'm pretty dang handy with a pitchfork too.

[GreekDressageQueen]

The employer is probably worried you will throw Twinkies at the anorexic clients.

[MistyBlue]

Twinkies are soft...be careful some of the 'anorexics' might throw power bars back and those aren't soft. :winkgrin:

[J Swan]

The employer is probably worried you will throw Twinkies at the anorexic clients.

:lol:



Nah - people just make assumptions. Gay men will diddle their little kids, fat people are contagious - lazy, smell bad, black people are lazy and don't see well at night, southerners are all rednecks and bigoted, slender people are bulemic, muslims are all terrorists, ..... you know - just the bull crap that people use to discriminate.

When we poke fun at each other and make light of stereotypes - it's funny. In the workplace - it's just bigotry. If the person can do the job - hire him or her. If they can't - don't. Period.

Some people just can't understand such a simple concept.

I remember being told that a female could not be a fighter pilot because she would bleed to death if she pulled any g's while on her period.

Yup. And that was in the 80's. And that was a real argument made against having female fighter pilots. We'd all bleed to death - so it was for our own safety.

[marta]

If it is any consolation, I was turned down for health insurance (last job was not required to offer COBRA) because I overwieght at 5'10" and 165 pounds :eek:

no way! challenge them on that. that's insane. i'm sure there are some guidelines they have to follow.

[olympicdreams04]

Misty and GDQ- Lmao thanks for adding some humor! The same people who assume someone who carries a little extra baggage isn't qualified to stable manage told me I was too small and weak to ride racehorses...silly close minded aholes.

[Mac123]

The double standard represented here is very appalling and is very offensive.

You people gripe about someone possibly being stereotyped by a possible employer and yet have no problem dishing out offensive stereotypes about thin people.

Way go go. Since it's obviously okay for you all to assume that 'skinny minis' throw up all the time or can't unload hay or, my favorite, have to 'run around in the shower to get wet' (WTH???) then you all should have NO problem if we call you equally rude names and stereotype you just as offensively.

Whoever talked about an obese chip on the shoulder had it right. I would never talk this way about any of you the way you are referring to skinny people.

Oh, yeah, I'm 5'6 and I'm 115 and a size 0 and I DON'T throw up every meal or use laxatives. And I can push a wheelbarrow and throw hay and lift feed bags. Sue me. It's the way I was made.

And before someone says that this was all in humor, I think that if the tables were turned and skinny people were calling heavier people chubby tubbies (all in fun...) you would offended too.

[J Swan]

Hey - wait a minute. Not every person has ridiculed slender people. Read the replies for their meaning.

I've lived both sides of these stereotypes and it's no fun being on the receiving end of either.

The only thing that separates the sides is the fact that in our culture - the slender are more likely to be perceived as having more attractive qualities; particularly if the person is female. Few people in our society consider an overweight female physically attractive. The term 'heroin chic' is a type of compliment, after all.

Whether is physical beauty, or that the slender person is considered to be more disciplined, or fit - when as we all know - that just isn't the case.

There's just too rich a variety in our body types and physical characteristics to consider one superior to the rest based purely on a number.

But - I ain't gonna argue with y'all over which skinny person can beat up a fat person. It's just ridiculous. Generally - a female cannot overpower a man - yet I did it all the time when I was in the Army.

So what.

[Mac123]

Hey - wait a minute. Not every person has ridiculed slender people. Read the replies for their meaning.

I've lived both sides of these stereotypes and it's no fun being on the receiving end of either.

The only thing that separates the sides is the fact that in our culture - the slender are more likely to be perceived as having more attractive qualities; particularly if the person is female. Few people in our society consider an overweight female physically attractive. The term 'heroin chic' is a type of compliment, after all.

Whether is physical beauty, or that the slender person is considered to be more disciplined, or fit - when as we all know - that just isn't the case.

There's just too rich a variety in our body types and physical characteristics to consider one superior to the rest based purely on a number.

But - I ain't gonna argue with y'all over which skinny person can beat up a fat person. It's just ridiculous. Generally - a female cannot overpower a man - yet I did it all the time when I was in the Army.

So what.

I don't digress with any of that and there were certainly those who replied appropriatly. My post was directed at those who feel it is okay to stereotype thin people even though they don't want to be stereotyped themselves.

We cannot change the fact that society as a whole believes thin people to be more attractive. But the flip attitude that my post addressed does nothing to help the matter. Accepting every body type and its own physical limitations is what will help (look in the h/j forum...I just posted expressing that I Want to gain weight and muscle).

[partlycloudy]

Hope I don't get shot down here...but these are just my experiences....
I worked at a large tb breeding stable where it was necessary to hire summer help (haying,getting yearlings ready for the sales).
My boss hired one woman who was built like a brick @@@@house..he figured she could throw a bale with each hand. Could she?..no! The 'skinny mini' (not my words) could out mow her any day.
He also hired a young fellow who was quite overweight...his resume was good so we figured he could do the job...he couldn't. The job entailed going out to the pastures to collect in-heat mares for breeding...he just couldn't walk fast enough and he had to go around to the gates because he couldn't duck through (I'm not kidding).
so in this case...I would say, yes weight matters.
Sorry, just my experience.

[BuddyRoo]

Wait a sec. Was that really the reason you didn't get the job? Or is that just what you're assuming?

Did they really ASK?

First of all, it's nobody's business what anyone weights IMHO--if they can get the job done. I know plenty of folks who are tipping the scales at the high end of "normal" and beyond who do just fine.....

It just seems odd to me that A) it would be a question one would ask and B) that one would make a decision based on that for a non-riding position.

Weird.

And you know....I think everyone is sensitive about SOMEthing. For some, it's weight. Some people get told they need to lose or else. Some get told to gain...or else. Either way, it's not fun.

[PineTreeFarm]

If health insurance is part of the benefits for the job I can see why the prospective employer was asking.

[In The Gate]

I agree that the generalizations about skinny people are just as bad as for heavier folks. Weight does have an impact on fitness, both when you're too skinny and too heavy. I've been both -- I struggled very hard over a year to loose about 30lbs -- and then overdid it when I got stressed and wound up too thin. At neither my heaviest or my thinnest was I as fit as I should have been.

Did you even submit the application, or did you just assume they wouldn't hire you because of your weight? I do agree that they should have asked about your ability to do the job; they could get a sense for your fitness level at an in person interview if that was something that concerned them.

[J Swan]

If health insurance is part of the benefits for the job I can see why the prospective employer was asking.

Hmmmm.... in that case the individual was not overweight - indeed - the BMI was completely normal. So am I to assume you think that an employer is justified in denying employment based on - what..... their personal opinion of what people should look like? What if her skin was black? Still ok not to hire her?

I think y'all better be very very careful about agreeing that an employer should and can deny employment based upon BMI. It might surprise you to know that many employers would deny you employment because of your hobby. Or because you have a boat or motorcycle. Or like to go diving. Or because you had a seizure 10 years ago. Or are in remission from cancer. Or have high blood pressure. These are not disabilities covered under the ADA. These are just normal things that happen to us in life.

It's all fine and dandy to point fingers at other folks - but when the spotlight shines on YOU - you may not find those arguments have any validity.

In case any of y'all don't know it - the horse industry has fought a very very hard battle to protect equestrians from being denied health insurance based on their hobby. Other industries are involved in that fight as well.

What none of us want is for our employer to fire us because they're worried we're going to get hurt at a horse show. Or because they see we've put on a few pounds over the holidays. The idea behind group coverage is that risk is spread out among many people - thereby lowering the premiums for ALL OF US.

The risks inherent in your health and physical activity are spread out among others - and their risks because of their health and physical activities.

If a person can do a job - they should be able to do it. If they can't - they get fired or asked to quit.

Whether they eat too many carbs, or like to skydive, or ride horses, or have high cholesterol - should not be justification for anyone to arbitrarily place limits on what they can try to achieve.

It's a shame that few of you can grasp the concept that we are more than the sum of our parts.

[MistyBlue]

The OP stated her height at 5'6" and 210. That's a 33.9 BMI, which is in the obesity scale of the BMI.
Now do I personally believe the BMI is accurate in calculating actual weight issues? No, not for a minute. It's way too simplistic a scale. It does not take into account the build, physical fitness or any other important statistics of the individual person.
But many health insurances do take the BMI into account when calculating the cost of health insurance for that employee. If the barn where the OP was applying was offering health insurance...it's quite possible the insurance company they use will charge more than the BO is able to pay for an employee. Insurance companies do take weight x height into account because statistically people who rate a 30 or higher on the BMI scale do have higher average medical costs. Not all of them and not saying it's fair or even smart for them to use the simplistic BMI calculator to justify insurance costs, but it's how the system works at this time.
I know a handful of people probably in the same stats as the OP and they're fit and able workers without obvious health problems that I know of...they could do any physical barn job that I can think of. But if it is an insurance issue with the job, that's out of the hands of the BO.

[PineTreeFarm]

J Swan
An insurance company can deny health insurance based on BMI and an employer can impose penalties on an employee for a BMI outside of normal range.
I never said can't hire but some companies no longer hire smokers as an example.Obsesity is being looked at the same way as drugs and alcohal for insurability.
I work for a company that uses the CDC's BMI index to determine normal weight. If you are outside of the norm you get insurance but at up to a 100% surcharge. Should you enroll in a weight loss program and follow through then your premium will be reduced.
So for an employer offering health insurance the cost of that insurance can be a factor. That's why I asked if the position offered health insurance.

The OP said this about their weight/height
"I guess I don't feel like 210 is so grossly obese for a 5'6" built-like-a-brick-shithouse woman that it would send off warning bells to a prospective employer."

Here's the CDC's calculator:

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/bmi/adult_BMI/english_bmi_calculator/bmi_calculator.htm

[twhrider13]

Um, I thought it was illegal to ask for a person's height and/or weight when that person was applying for a job. For insurance purposes, it's different, I suppose, but why ask before the job offer is even made? :confused:

FWIW, I'm a "chubby tubby," and when someone asks me how much I weigh, I always look 'em dead in the eye and say in my most serious voice, "115 pounds." They never know what to say to that. :winkgrin:

[J Swan]

MistyBlue - I was referring more to the person with a normal BMI who was denied employment.



I guess we're having to read a lot into the OP's post - maybe too much. I don't know many facilities that offer any benefits, which is why I'm quick to assume a snap judgment was made. I also have to ask folks if a person was underweight (which is just as fraught with health risks) would they have faced a similar question?

Truth is - probably not. Most of us are not able to determine a persons weight merely by looking at them. We may come close - but just the manner in which a person dresses can add or subtract 20lbs.

So I'm left with concluding that it's appearance folks find so objectionable.

Slender people will always have the advantage as long as our society considers that form to be beautiful.

When an employer requires certain tasks to be performed - it is absolutely permissible to require the prospective employee to perform them as part of the interview process. ie, lift 50lbs, demonstrate proficiency in a foreign language, etc.

Nobody can determine an employees ability merely by looking at them. Assumptions can be made, stereotypes can be affirmed - but that's it.

A slender person being denied employment because an employer assumes something like - the person is underweight and will drive up health costs, or slender people can't do hard physical labor - is just as appalling.


Insurance companies are always looking to discriminate. People don't get genetic testing that could save their lives, because they are afraid insurance companies might find out. Certain races have a higher incidence of certain diseases - yet they are not denied employment because they pose a higher risk to an employer's health premiums.

Sorry - I don't buy it. I won't agree that it's ok to deny employment to a person for anything other than lack of credentials or experience. Anything else is merely used to exclude people from fully participating in society.

[J Swan]

J Swan
An insurance company can deny health insurance based on BMI and an employer can impose penalties on an employee for a BMI outside of normal range.
I never said can't hire but some companies no longer hire smokers as an example.Obsesity is being looked at the same way as drugs and alcohal for insurability.
I work for a company that uses the CDC's BMI index to determine normal weight. If you are outside of the norm you get insurance but at up to a 100% surcharge. Should you enroll in a weight loss program and follow through then your premium will be reduced.
So for an employer offering health insurance the cost of that insurance can be a factor. That's why I asked if the position offered health insurance.

The OP said this about their weight/height
"I guess I don't feel like 210 is so grossly obese for a 5'6" built-like-a-brick-shithouse woman that it would send off warning bells to a prospective employer."

Here's the CDC's calculator:

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/bmi/adult_BMI/english_bmi_calculator/bmi_calculator.htm




I was under the impression you directed that post at DopyDogz; denied employment because of her weight - which was a normal BMI.

The BMI is a joke anyway - when they did the height/weight tables years ago all of a sudden a large number of Americans became "overweight". I'm not overly fond of insurance companies - I know how they work and they're in the business of making money. Which is why they're generally a great investment.

[CJ4ME]

The OP is obese. While obesity doesn't necessaily equate with being unfit-it isn't a healthy state, either. Overweight people are more likely to experience back and knee pain, shortness of breath, cardiac problems. I am not saying the OP has any of these problems...I am saying that practically speaking an obese person has more health problems that could get in the way of a physically demanding job.

Our barn manager is a very slender, small woman who is perfectly strong and capable. My trainer is an obese woman (5'4" and 212) and also capable of taking care of the barn, but she doesn't ride many horses.

I agree with a previous poster, that the employers might be thinking that barn help might need to exercise horses or they might be thinking about insurance or workers compensation. Or they might be bigoted asshats.

Hard to say.

[Anne FS]

Nah - people just make assumptions. Gay men will diddle their little kids, fat people are contagious - lazy, smell bad, black people are lazy and don't see well at night.

:lol: :lol:

I feel like I'm in that South Park episode where the kids had to go to the diversity museum, where they were told every derogatory epithet that ever existed, 90% of which they had never even heard. They were amazed and ended up saying, "Good one, we'll have to remember that so we can use it next time."

oh, man. The things I learn on COH.

Sorry, please excuse me. I'm not making light of the OP's predicament because it's not funny, but this thread definitely has a humorous vein.

[PineTreeFarm]

I was under the impression you directed that post at DopyDogz; denied employment because of her weight - which was a normal BMI..

No not directed at DopyDogz who was not denied employment, he/she was denied insurance.

"If it is any consolation, I was turned down for health insurance (last job was not required to offer COBRA) because I overwieght at 5'10" and 165 pounds "

The BMI makes a distinction between overweight and obese. While I'm sure the CDC's index is not perfect it is widely accepted.

[J Swan]

Yeah - there are a lot of zingers out there. I love a good off color joke - actually I've got quite a collection of them - including some real good Catholic priest ones!

But....... having been on the receiving end of those comments (not weight related) during a job interview........ I empathize with the OP.

And being told I couldn't be a fighter pilot because female's would bleed to death when pulling g's - I gotta admit - it stung. It stung because it wasn't true and I knew it to be what it was - an excuse to exclude a class of people.

In essence, this crap is used to exclude and limit people. I'm not saying we all need to hold hands and sing kum ba ya. Or have group hugs. I'm saying we don't have the right to place limits on others because of our own bigotry.

[philosoraptor]

I agree it was unprofessional and perhaps a bit offensive the BO asked this. Shame on her!

Look at the bright side: you know right away she isn't worth working with. Dont waste any more time with her rinky-dink operation.

i think that obese chip on your shoulder is keeping you from realizing that maybe they asked her weight because they didn't want to hire a 125 "skinny mini" who couldn't do the job.

The correct way to post an ad is to state "applicant must be able to life 50 pounds" or something like that. Weight has nothing to do with strength. You can be the perfect weight but have a bad back and never leave the sofa.

I'm also not sure I like the generalization that a 125lb person can't do the job either. I've seen some small but wiry ladies out there who I wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.

I am "obese" according to the numbers. And yet I am in the gym 5x a week, a full hour workout each time... plus caring for horses, riding, and whatever else. I unload entire wagons of hay with 1 helper & I unload the grain bags alone. Despite this level of activity and a refusal to set foot in a Mcdonalds, I just don't lose weight. My cholesterol is in their "optimal" range (<100) and I've never had a problem with blood pressure. Go figure. Maybe I am just an "easy keeper"? :lol:

Fat does not mean unfit.

I've worked as a Barn Manager before, and you do not need to be the Incredible Hulk to do that kind of work. I was less fit then than I am now, and I did OK.

[2ndyrgal]

I don't know. 5'6" and 210, if she was a "brick house", well, muscle weighs more than fat, and did they ask her before they saw her or during the interview? If I was hiring a stable manager, and the person on the phone sounded very young, or had a voice that did not give me any impression of physical strength, and I had not seen them, I "might" ask them how old they were, how tall, how much they weighed, if the job involved really demanding physical labor. Would I rather have someone fit, that weighed more than the chart said they should, well, in terms of physical strength, I'm thinking that Buck Davidson can pick up something heavier than Margie Engle. That's just physical fact. Yes, I know there are strong, small people, I used to be 5'4" weigh 112lbs and could throw an 80lb haybale to the top of the stack, just like the guys. I was also the exception, and had the right kind of muscles. I'm still 5'4", I weigh 145, and am 20 years older. I can still outwork most 20 yr olds, regardless of their weight. Hey at UPS they want you to be able to pick up 75 lbs on a regular basis, all day long. If you tell them you're 5ft nothing and weigh 95 lbs, chances are you are going to have to SHOW them you can do the job. If you are 5'10 and weigh 350, you can probably pick up 75lbs, but you aren't gonna pick it up quick. If it bugs the OP so much, call the person back, ask why they wanted to know how heavy you are and ask if you can work on a one day trial. Agree on an hourly wage, work the day, see if you like it, can do it to their satisfaction and then abide by their decision. A great many things that seem discriminatory to someone applying for a job may not be, it just may be that the prospective employer already had someone similar (female, male, skinny, fat, bitchy, homonal, pregnant, macho, whatever) and that person did not work out. If I hired someone for a physical job, that had certain physical characteristics, and that person didn't work out, I would probably try a different type of person. You don't see many quarter horses doing the GP jumpers, and you don't see very many imported warmbloods chasing cows. If I was applying for a basketball playing position, they might ask me how tall I am, not how well I can dribble.

[Alagirl]

If it is any consolation, I was turned down for health insurance (last job was not required to offer COBRA) because I overwieght at 5'10" and 165 pounds :eek:


:eek::eek::eek::eek: Liek, that left earlope of yours was too big...:no::no:

[Lori B]

Oh, to live in the world where the meanest thing that anyone ever said about me was 'skinny mini'. That is a serious tragedy.

It is far more frequently the case that overweight people are deemed less attractive, less capable, and less desired as employees, regardless of any relation those assessments bear to the actual abilities of the person being judged. The contention, voiced by some posters to this thread, that an equally pernicious form of discrimination against thin people exists in the world is laughable.

The equestrian world is in certain parts particularly afflicted with a preference for very thin people, particularly for thin women. To insist otherwise is to be unacquainted with reality. This preference exists even when it is unrelated to activities that have a clear and unargued weight component, like being a jockey.

[Tamara in TN]

Oh, to live in the world where the meanest thing that anyone ever said about me was 'skinny mini'. That is a serious tragedy.
The contention, voiced by some posters to this thread, that an equally pernicious form of discrimination against thin people exists in the world is laughable.

.

not a discrimination but a true caustic-ness (for lack of a better word) in the Roseanne Barr type meaning of the word....the "ugly,natured, bad tempered, hate every one cause you are unhappy with your self,but play it off with passive agressive comments" type meanness that has been directed at me by more than one person who is not my size....everyone thought Roseanne Barr was so funny and outspoken when her show was still on TV...I just thought her hateful and vile...

in that same vein, however, I am spoken to as a stupid moron,daily by Yankee hay customers, due to my very southern accent...(shrug...who knew ;) )

actually I did know and have felt it for years...my speech makes me "Southern" and therefore slow mentally and "beneath" Yankee transplants...

and the Southern children and their parents hated me for speaking German when we moved here so long ago,so I stopped...so there is all kinds of ugly-ness in this world.... being white and thin and female does not exempt you from ugly-ness....it just changes the parameters a bit...:(

anyway....the person I lean on the hardest on times of horse illness,foaling difficulty, equine general sickness and horses dying and so on makes two of me on an average day and I would not swap her for anyone in this world.... :p

Tamara in TN

[Trixie]

Oh, to live in the world where the meanest thing that anyone ever said about me was 'skinny mini'. That is a serious tragedy.
The contention, voiced by some posters to this thread, that an equally pernicious form of discrimination against thin people exists in the world is laughable.

I'd be thrilled to pieces if the worst thing that anyone could say about me was that I was thin or fat, but we're not discussing the meanest thing ever said about us. We're discussing how we feel about the issue at hand.

class, no one on this thread wants to hear about the ongoing tragedy of trying to find size 4 pants. Go peddle your 'skinny people are oppressed too' sack of woe somewhere else. :-)

Again... this is a discussion forum. I thought most folks in the thread did a fairly decent job of explaining where they're coming from, and they have as much right as you to speak their piece. Furthermore, as I said before, it's a bit of a double standard.

[In The Gate]

Lori B (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=90875) --

I'm not going to disagree with you that heavier people are discriminated against. It's true; and reprehensible. If the person can get the job done, then their size, sex, color, sexual orientation or whatever simply don't matter.

However, it is still entirely inappropriate for someone heavier to speak out against discrimination and derogatory comments, and then make similar comments about another group of people.

Sorry, but there is simply no excuse for that.

[spirithorse22]

Uh - that isn't overweight. That's within the normal weight for a person of your height.



Sirena - you are - barely - into the "overweight" range. Like a couple of pounds.


Yep, by BMI I am considered in the 'overweight' category...25 is the last number accepted as normal, and I'm right at 26...go figure. It used to bother me that my ideal weight was considered 'overweight' by the standard BMI but then just the other day someone told me, "You're starting to look like a stick figure!". :winkgrin: Its all subjective.

I think you have to consider what doctors (or mine at least) say about the BMI- it doesn't take into account how much of your weight is muscle. My doctor nodded with approval at my last check up, so I think I'm good to go!

Eating healthy is more important than being stick thin, I think. Anyway, just my 2cents. :)

[J Swan]

Nope - according to the NIH BMI calculator - your weight is just fine. 5'10" and 165lbs, right? That's a 23.7.

But you don't need a calculator to tell you that. I don't doubt that you're healthy and you look just fine.

Geez - companies and agencies can't even use the same freakin' BMI calculator. There's supposed to be just one so we're all on the same sheet of music.

[IveGotRhythm]

i also want to know how you feel okay to call people skinny minis when i would never dream of calling you a chubby tubby?

I have been on both sides of the spectrum here.

I was a fat kid. My mom had me on diets starting in first grade and everything was a bargain with my weight (want to see a movie? Lose 5 pounds. Guess how that worked out?)In the eigth grade I was weighed/measured for a home ec project at 4' 11" and 160 lbs. I dropped the class.

That said, I could toss hay and ride a 3' course w/o stirrups on my pony. And to be honest, everyone at school was nice and friendly to me. I isolated myself because I had a major complex (thanks, mom, I know you meant well).

Fast forward to college. Expensive private school so I took as many classes per quarter as I could. AND worked 2 physical part time jobs. Ended up at 5'4" and 98 lbs. Extremely stressed and no time to eat. Couldn't even open the cooler doors at the restaurant because my feet just slid and ANYONE and EVERYONE felt free to comment on my weight. NOT in a complimentary way!!!

I actually got picked on /socially abused a lot worse for being too thin.

I actually lost a good friend, who was chubby, because after complaining about a nasty comment I got in line at a grocery store about how sick I looked (from a total stranger) she told me I had no right to be sensitive since I wasn't OVERWEIGHT. It wasn't the first time she invalidated my feeling on that issue but it finally had to be the last.

Bottom line, both sides of the spectrum are painful. It's not fair to pick on ANYONE about their weight. EVER EVER EVER.

And I was physically more capable when I was "overweight" than when I was underweight. Or, for that matter, than I am NOW (5'4",125)!!!!

[Pat]

And being told I couldn't be a fighter pilot because female's would bleed to death when pulling g's - I gotta admit - it stung. It stung because it wasn't true and I knew it to be what it was - an excuse to exclude a class of people.


Yeah, and if you want to make yourself just a little more ill over the fighter pilot thing, go find a copy of the movie "Tuskegee Airmen". There were even more insane concepts people in positions of power used to try to keep black men out of the cockpit too. Crazy crap, hard to believe that supposedly educated men talked themselves into believing.

Screw 'em. I am a big chick. I still run circles around other people at work, with the exception of the bossman. He must be on speed or something, he'll make your head spin. Yeah, he's faaar lighter than me, but on the other hand, he has a medical condition that forces him to mind what he eats and his weight, or it could kill him. And so what if I can't walk as fast as him? I can still muck stalls at the same speed (3 to everyone elses' 1) and I groom 5 horses in the same time frame as he does his 3 , and mine all look just as good as his.

If this was a phone interview, I would have simply hedged the question. Let them see you work first. Let them see the resume and the references first. If they still don't like ya, you don't need the job. It will get difficult quick if they are that worried about your wieght.

I was asked that question once, on the phone. I knew that they had a pony, so my answer was that if you needed someone to school ponies, then I'm too big for that. And ya know, maybe if I dropped a whole bunch of "extra padding", that wouldn't be true, but then and now, it is.

What REALLY pissed me off was that after meeting me, having me in on a 'working interview' for two friggin days, they finally admitted they needed a pony rider. Uh, well, I did mention that, right? And the manner in which the subject was breeched made me wanna start throwing stuff. This was a private barn, Dad in charge with a 17 year old snotty, spoiled, over priviledged daughter. Dad thought it appropriate that the child ask me questions too. Which wasn't a bad idea necessarily. But instead, she simply stated, like I wasn't in the room, "well, she's too big to ride (insert famous pony name) and "Bunny" (?) has a bad back." Holy crap, you little snot!!! I'm standing right here!!!

That child has since grown up, and she's pretty much come out ok, but heheehe, she owns a tack store now. Nothing like dealing with customers!! Every time I see her, yeah, I still replay that little snot fest in my head. I *do* go in her store, and I'm more or less over it, but an apology would be nice. I'm sure that she doesn't even remember the incident!

[sirena_chaucer]

Nope - according to the NIH BMI calculator - your weight is just fine. 5'10" and 165lbs, right? That's a 23.7.

But you don't need a calculator to tell you that. I don't doubt that you're healthy and you look just fine.

Geez - companies and agencies can't even use the same freakin' BMI calculator. There's supposed to be just one so we're all on the same sheet of music.

No, I'm 5'10 and 178lbs. But I'm realizing it's not good that we (my American girlfriends and I) can't look in the mirror without stifling the thought, 'if i lost that pound there...if my hips weren't so rounded..." etc. when it's NATURAL for a woman to have curves. Healthy curves meaning your muscles are toned and you have a nice, violin-type shape. My legs are like rocks. My arms are quite firm. My belly is decently flat but will never look like a beach volleyball players. I am the body type that is tall, and my legs have always been slender, with weight being distributed evenly enough that the loss/gain of a up to five pounds is not very noticeable. Saying that, it's very hard for my body type to really 'muscle' out. I've got a long look and that's just the way it is...

I get so angry when I think about how many of my friends fall into this vicious cycle of starving themselves, then breaking down and binging b/c they're too hungry to care any longer, and then hating themselves b/c they aren't thin or their ribs/hip bones don't show. ??? Why is it that if a society is well fed, the ideal beauty seems to be skinny, then in areas of the world where everyone is stick thin (ribs, hips, gaunt cheeks, lovely! :no:) they long to have enough food to put in their belly and fill out?

To keep this horse-related: I run, I lift weights, I'm a barn worker, and its imperative to me that my wind be up to gallops and trot sets for my sport. I can out walk anyone I know (i admit it helps when you're legs are nine feet long, lol), work long hours without fatigue, and enjoy a full, balanced meal. I don't care what television or advertising has dictated as the beauty of modern ages, I'm going to do what's best for myself.

At one point when I was in high school, I went down to eating three crackers a day. I'm not kidding. I was dizzy all the time, I had so much stomach pain that I couldn't do any crunches or sit ups, and I 'disappeared' in the mirror when I turned to the side as one other poster remarked. However- I was still a size ten with my ribs/hip bones showing. My skin was unhealthy, my hair was lank, I was developing ulcers...still a size ten. Yet, a friend's ditsy sister pointed to me and said admiringly, 'You look like a run-way model'. Wow. Positive reinforcement for starving myself? I'm not going back there.

[Nski32]

You are NOT grossly obese, just a little "fluffy on the outside, sturdy on the inside". And I'll just bet you can toss a bale of hay further and faster than some little skinny mini who is only 5'2" and weighs 125. And you can push a full wheelbarrel of horse crap uphill without it tipping over, can't you?

I'm about your size and I get so sick and tired of all the "skinny" people assuming that just because we have some weight we are less than perfect and can't do the same things they can do.

Isn't that discrimination?

ditto:yes:

[MistyBlue]

It is far more frequently the case that overweight people are deemed less attractive, less capable, and less desired as employees, regardless of any relation those assessments bear to the actual abilities of the person being judged.

As stated earlier...if the person hits the 'obese' BMI rating on the BMI scale...some companies will not hire them since their current health carrier will find them a health risk and providing health care for that employee through the job will cost the employer more, according the higher rates the insurance provider will require. That's probably more frequently the case than someone being turned down due to asthetic purposes.

The contention, voiced by some posters to this thread, that an equally pernicious form of discrimination against thin people exists in the world is laughable.

In the work force...probably true since the health insurance would less likely be a factor.
In the outside world...thin/skinny/just not overweight people often do hear a lot more verbal manure from complete strangers than overweight ones do. It seems to be more politically correct in some folks' brains that it's okay to say something out loud in the hearing of certain people as long as that certain person is being ridiculed for being not overweight...yet it's well understood that it's rude to say something about someone with extra weight.
It isn't laughable when the way a mother has to bring up the "drugs are bad" talk with her preteen daughter is because that daughter heard loud and clear two *adult* women in public snipe out loud that nobody could be that size without being on drugs. It isn't laughable hearing names like "skinny crack ho" or "closet puker." I'm not even "skinny" anymore...and still at least once weekly hear crap from people I don't even know. Not stretching it...once weekly.
And it's not even surprising to see on here with all horsewomen that nothing's different.

[Lori B]

I'm glad that, in your experience, it's well understood that commenting on a large person's weight isn't ok. I'll have to visit that planet sometime, it's clearly kinder than this one.

The point of my posts to this thread have not been to cast aspersions on the abilities of thin people. My intention has been to note the complete silliness of the idea that impolite social commentary on a thin person's weight is somehow just as bad as the actual job discrimination experienced regularly in this society by overweight people, particularly women. I don't even mean morbidly obese, I mean, not thin. It's just silly. The idea is silly. I didn't say anything about the intelligence, abilities, goodness, badness, whatever, of thin people. Those qualities are pretty much equally distributed across body types, as far as I can tell. But when an earlier poster got her pants in a twist over being called 'skinny minny' -- not any of the very insulting things you said, MB, but just 'skinny minny', it struck me as absurd. And, it still does.

[dizzywriter]

Misty, can I say that I love you?
After a long absence (due to moving and renovating a house), I came to COTH looking for a horsie diversion and found this.
I won't say I've been on both sides of the scale. I've gone from so called "skinny minny" to what I consider chunky but most people would consider still rather slim.
What I always found most disconcerting about my figure in public conversation was that everyone considered it perfectly acceptable to talk about it. If you are "thin" it's OK. If you are not, it isn't.
That is not to say that overweight people don't suffer other indignancies (is that a word? my spell check indicates it isn't but forgive me, I"m not used to so much housecleaning). People would just talk about my body (good or bad, but pretty personal) in front of me without even a note of apology. It was like an object.
I can only imagine what someone who is overweight has to suffer, but that is usually in silence in polite conversation (and the OPs conversation sounded anything but that). Polite conversation has no bounds on what to say to people like me. Please don't think that its pleasant.
And for all those who want to rant at me about their perception of my non-problems with body issues (compared to theirs), most of us here are women and we all have body issues.
Strength and health are good criteria for the positive. If you can handle your barn chores and horses and ride (or whatever equestrian sport you pursue), and -- the absolute main thing -- feel good about yourself, that's what really matters.

[dizzywriter]

But when an earlier poster got her pants in a twist over being called 'skinny minny' -- not any of the very insulting things you said, MB, but just 'skinny minny', it struck me as absurd. And, it still does.

"Skinny minny" is still insulting because it is defining a person by weight, and not by value. Isn't that the point of this entire thread?

[Lambie Boat]

if the person doing the hiring was a man, perhaps he was looking for somebody to date first and manage the stable second, and you just weren't his type?

[subk]

I think all of this asks a very interesting question of us as a society.

We want someone else to pay for our health insurance,
someone else to pay for workers compensation,
someone else to pay for unemployment compensation,
someone else to pay for our drugs when we get old,
and the way it's going someone else to pay for our healthcare.

How long do you think it will be before "someone else" has a perfect right to know all about our weight, alcohol consumption, smoking habits, fitness routines and a whole plethora of personal information that so many here apparently think should be private and not a part of someone else's financial equations?

As they say, be careful what you wish for.

[blueboo]

the absolute main thing -- feel good about yourself, that's what really matters.


Ahhh - but that's the crux of the matter isn't it? The truly sad thing is that probably 99 percent of us go through life convinced that whatever size or shape we are simply isn't good enough - and never will be. And knowing in our heart of hearts that nothing we can really do is going to either change our feelings about ourselves, or make Jane and John Q Public really accept us. A fairly misery making circumstance isn't it?

[mbamissaz]

Ahhh - but that's the crux of the matter isn't it? The truly sad thing is that probably 99 percent of us go through life convinced that whatever size or shape we are simply isn't good enough - and never will be. And knowing in our heart of hearts that nothing we can really do is going to either change our feelings about ourselves, or make Jane and John Q Public really accept us. A fairly misery making circumstance isn't it?

It doesn't have to be. Ultimately, it is YOU who can come to terms with who you are and *embrace* it. I mean....what other choice do we have??? Plastic surgery? Lipo?? And neither one will likely help you feel at peace on the inside. I've lost over 100 lbs in the last 20 months...and believe me, in the beginning I thought all I had to do was lose weight...and I'd be happy. What I've discovered is that you need to learn to love yourself most of all...and that is the ONLY way you will truly find inner happiness. It is only "misery" if you let it be.

Ok...now everyone...please hold hands and commence with kumbayah...thank you ;)

[lawndart]

I think all of this asks a very interesting question of us as a society.

We want someone else to pay for our health insurance,
someone else to pay for workers compensation,
someone else to pay for unemployment compensation,
someone else to pay for our drugs when we get old,
and the way it's going someone else to pay for our healthcare.

How long do you think it will be before "someone else" has a perfect right to know all about our weight, alcohol consumption, smoking habits, fitness routines and a whole plethora of personal information that so many here apparently think should be private and not a part of someone else's financial equations?

As they say, be careful what you wish for.

Good Point SubK!

[magnolia73]

Sorry - I don't buy it. I won't agree that it's ok to deny employment to a person for anything other than lack of credentials or experience. Anything else is merely used to exclude people from fully participating in society.

Honestly, I think we should be able to hire or not hire based on any whim. I think an employer should have the right to not hire a brunette. Maybe the BO does not like fat people...... at least this way you don't have to deal with someone who dislikes you every day. I think eventually the market would right itself as people with stupid whims missed out on great employees.

I see it all the time- people hire pretty young women with no experience into sales positions - and it works great until they actually have to close a sale. Oops- should have hired the 50 yo with 30 years of closing deals- glad she works for our project!

Certainly someone will appreciate a sturdy hard worker- most (smart) people want the best worker for the job. Be glad you don't work for that idiot.

[J Swan]

I see it all the time- people hire pretty young women with no experience into sales positions - and it works great until they actually have to close a sale. Oops- should have hired the 50 yo with 30 years of closing deals- glad she works for our project!


Mr JSwan employer has a bad habit of doing that. After a few multi million dollars deals that went down the toilet - the manager was fired. The new sales manager just wants to see robust resumes, not robust boobs.

Unfortunately, that doesn't help the competent young attractive person either, as too many people assume they were hired for their looks.

Oh well. Life ain't fair.

[cinder88]

I checked that BMI calculator someone posted and at 5'5", I would have to weight 150 lbs to be considered a normal weight.

At 150 pounds, I look like (and feel like) a starving person. I've had people ask me if my health is ok....

At 170, I look and feel wonderful...strong and healthy....but the BMI chart says I'm "overweight".

The charts are WAY too broad, IMO.

Cinder

[Trixie]

Unfortunately, that doesn't help the competent young attractive person either, as too many people assume they were hired for their looks.

I'm young and female and I get a LOT of this type of thing in the workplace - not that I was "hired for my looks" but based on the fact that I'm young and female, I MUST be a secretary. I've had to make complaints before because I've been told to send people's faxes, or to go sit at the receptionist desk for a few hours, or to make and serve coffee for a meeting that I'm not involved in - none of these things are on any level my job. It's very interesting the assumptions that people make... as this thread illustrates.

"Skinny minny" is still insulting because it is defining a person by weight, and not by value. Isn't that the point of this entire thread?

:yes: :yes: :yes:

[Mayaty02]

So I could stand to lose 50 pounds. I know that. But it has no impact on my ability to feed horses, muck stalls, clean tack, etc. I have had to curtail my physical activity (i.e. get 2nd job) in order to pay medical bills (not mine). If I was applying for a riding position, I could understand it. But why would you ask about weight in a first contact for a stable manager position?


Back to the purpose of the first post, it is absolutely illegal to ask about your weight, age, height, disability, race, gender, etc etc in the employment process. Yes an insurance company to whom you are applying for insurance can inquire and has the right to deny or accept you based on any factors which create risk for them. An employer does not.

I agree that you don't want that job anyway if that's how they operate, BUT I would call them back and say, "hey I've spoken to some attorney friends of mine about your interviewing process and specifically your question about my weight, and quite frankly I could and should sue you for discrimination. I won't because I would never work for a classless organization/barn as yours but just so you know..."

[ToN Farm]

Honestly, I think we should be able to hire or not hire based on any whim.
So do I. It was that way with my generation.

[magnolia73]

weight, age, height, disability, race, gender, etc etc in the employment process.

All of those things are pretty obvious by the time you hit the interview... so impossible not to notice and come into your decision making process.

[GrandIllusionSportHorses]

I was asked to send a photo of myself once when I inquired about a barn manager postion. They said to send a photo and then they would see if they wanted to set up an interview! :eek: didnt want to know any of my work history before hand! I found it rather odd and figured if they were like that I probley didnt want to work for them.

[Mayaty02]

All of those things are pretty obvious by the time you hit the interview... so impossible not to notice and come into your decision making process.


absolutely but to flat out ask about, you can't get more obvious than that and that will land the employer in court.

[J Swan]

So do I. It was that way with my generation.


It's still that way in Virginia. Virginia is an "at will" state. They don't need a reason to hire you, or fire you. Not working out? Not a good fit? They think you're a jerk? Bye bye. No problem.

But I do have a problem with real discrimination. So an employer putting a sign out saying Irishmen and dogs keep out, or a Christian only workplace...... no way. There are limits on "at will" employment.

[Mayaty02]

It's still that way in Virginia. Virginia is an "at will" state. They don't need a reason to hire you, or fire you. Not working out? Not a good fit? They think you're a jerk? Bye bye. No problem.

But I do have a problem with real discrimination. So an employer putting a sign out saying Irishmen and dogs keep out, or a Christian only workplace...... no way. There are limits on "at will" employment.

Most states in the US are "at-will" but by no means does that mean that you can discriminate. They can fire you for any reason, but they better be prepared to defend that it was for performance reasons, not for anything that could be seen as discriminatory. Employees can still sue, argue discimination and win, unless there is clear evidence that the employer did not just fire her because she was overweight etc for example.

[J Swan]

Most states in the US are "at-will" but by no means does that mean that you can discriminate. They can fire you for any reason, but they better be prepared to defend that it was for performance reasons, not for anything that could be seen as discriminatory. Employees can still sue, argue discimination and win, unless there is clear evidence that the employer did not just fire her because she was overweight etc for example.


I know - I was referring to the post in which a person stated it was "that way" in their generation.

It's still that way - within certain limits.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I find this discussion very ironic.

13 years ago, when I was a very heavy cigarette smoker, I felt picked on, marginalized and discriminated against. I was made to feel like a second class citizen. Even now I look at those poor smokers standing out in the cold because it is illegal for them to smoke indoors.

But you know what? Unlike classifications upon the basis of which it is illegal to discriminate (disability, gender, race, ethnicity, etc.) I could stop smoking. It was totally within my control.

The same goes for being overweight. Eat less or burn more calories or both. Is it hard? Yes. Is it better for you? Yes. Is it better for our society and our economy? Yes.

Again, as a former smoker, I can really sympathize with the way that heavy people feel now. Seems like people really want a group that they can pick on. But in the end, as much as I hate to say it, it is for your own good. :sigh: Flame away....

[Mayaty02]

I find this discussion very ironic.

13 years ago, when I was a very heavy cigarette smoker, I felt picked on, marginalized and discriminated against. I was made to feel like a second class citizen. Even now I look at those poor smokers standing out in the cold because it is illegal for them to smoke indoors.

But you know what? Unlike classifications upon the basis of which it is illegal to discriminate (disability, gender, race, ethnicity, etc.) I could stop smoking. It was totally within my control.

The same goes for being overweight. Eat less or burn more calories or both. Is it hard? Yes. Is it better for you? Yes. Is it better for our society and our economy? Yes.

Again, as a former smoker, I can really sympathize with the way that heavy people feel now. Seems like people really want a group that they can pick on. But in the end, as much as I hate to say it, it is for your own good. :sigh: Flame away....

I definitely see the parallel and agree with you however a smoker can theoretically stop smoking the day they are hired. An overweight person can start a diet, but are by no means capable of dropping 50 lbs overnight. So there is a bit more protection for the overweight person.

[Dressage62]

You can give up smoking, you can't give up food.

[Speedy]

I definitely see the parallel and agree with you however a smoker can theoretically stop smoking the day they are hired. An overweight person can start a diet, but are by no means capable of dropping 50 lbs overnight. So there is a bit more protection for the overweight person.

I guess you've never tried to quit smoking!

[Eclectic Horseman]

You can give up smoking, you can't give up food.

That's true, but people CAN change their eating habits. It is WHAT and HOW MUCH they eat that matters. People can also change their exercise habits--this can be critical in people with slow metabolisms and low muscle tone.

One of my sisters was overweight since childhood. She actually gave herself malnutrition when she was forced to comply with the weight charts when she was in the military. Then she started to work out, and voila, lifetime problem solved.

Where there is a will, there is a way. As a smoker, I had a million excuses too!

[Mayaty02]

I guess you've never tried to quit smoking!

LOL - I am not a smoker but I do know how hard it is to quit, that's why I said "theoretically" :) (I also know how hard it is to lose weight, ugh!!!)

[Dressage62]

I like the t-shirt slogan: Hand Over The Chocolate And No One Will Get Hurt!
And another one: I used to jog, but my thighs rubbed together so much, my underwear caught on fire

[Mozart]

Hope I don't get shot down here...but these are just my experiences....
I worked at a large tb breeding stable where it was necessary to hire summer help (haying,getting yearlings ready for the sales).
My boss hired one woman who was built like a brick @@@@house..he figured she could throw a bale with each hand. Could she?..no! The 'skinny mini' (not my words) could out mow her any day.
He also hired a young fellow who was quite overweight...his resume was good so we figured he could do the job...he couldn't. The job entailed going out to the pastures to collect in-heat mares for breeding...he just couldn't walk fast enough and he had to go around to the gates because he couldn't duck through (I'm not kidding).
so in this case...I would say, yes weight matters.
Sorry, just my experience.
The thing is, you just can't generalize. Many years ago a friend of mine had a TB in race training. The groom that was assigned to his horse was out and out obese. Not chunky, not "fluffy", obese. In typical backstrecth fashion his nick name was "Tiny". He was very concerned that the groom would not be able to properly bandage his horse's legs and get down there to assess the horse's legs. Trainer told him, relax he knows his job and is good at it. And he was.

I have also seen apparently fit people hired to work at the barn just not physically be able to do the job.

So if the potential employer wants to cut out a whole swath of the population that may do a great job...their loss.

[Adamantane]

Because people are idiots.

The only thing they are supposed to ask is if you have any physical limitation that precludes you from performing certain tasks.

Once had a senior manager in Human Resources (!) who attempted to block our hiring a very well qualified physicist because she felt his weight -- I'd call him rotund, not obese -- would lead to health problems that would be expensive both for the insurance plan and in terms of time off.

All the way to the Sr VP we pushed back and she reluctantly backed off. The HR manager lasted at most another year. We hired the guy and he worked successfully and productively with us for twelve or so years. (Eventually he did become seriously ill, went on disability and later died, but from Hodgkin's, an awful disease totally unrelated to his weight.)

[Eclectic Horseman]

Once had a senior manager in Human Resources (!) who attempted to block our hiring a very well qualified physicist because she felt his weight -- I'd call him rotund, not obese -- would lead to health problems that would be expensive both for the insurance plan and in terms of time off.

All the way to the Sr VP we pushed back and she reluctantly backed off. The HR manager lasted at most another year. We hired the guy and he worked successfully and productively with us for twelve or so years. (Eventually he did become seriously ill, went on disability and later died, but from Hodgkin's, an awful disease totally unrelated to his weight.)

Purely anecdotal stories are just a form of denial. I know, I used to point to all the elderly people who had smoked their entire lives. But insurance statistics and public health studies don't lie. The actuaries don't have any moral disagreement with smoking or obesity. It is just an undeniable fact that you are more likely to get type 2 diabetes, heart disease, cancer and any other number of illnesses if you are overweight.

I also believe that the recent study regarding obesity "contagion" made a good point. People who are around overweight people tend to be overweight. Part of this is lifestyle (eating and exercise habits) and part of this is just a distorted perception of what is an acceptable body image. You don't notice how fat Americans are until you go abroad. When you do, it is absolutely embarrassing to see the fat Americans who can be easily identified by their size.

So if an employer does not want to condone a culture of obesity (or smokng) in his workplace, I think that is his right, as it should be.

[bambam]

Most states in the US are "at-will" but by no means does that mean that you can discriminate.
it means you cannot discriminate for an explcitly prohibited reason
those specifically prohibited reasons beyond the federal Title VII and ADA ones (disability, race, gender, religion, national origin, etc) vary by state but you can most certainly discriminate on the basis of weight in some states unless the person is so overweight that they arguably fall within the parameters of the ADA
An employer can not hire you or fire you for non-performance reasons unless it is specifically prohibited by a federal or state law (and some states include personal apperance in their state Title VII equivalents)
Obviously not saying they should but immoral, unethical and unfair often do not equate with illegal

[thumbsontop]

First, I really don't think your weight should have had anything to do with it. Unfortunately some people are just like that. Sorry you've had to deal with it.

Now...I haven't read the entire thread, only some, but am incredibly offended at some people. How dare you complain about being discriminated against and then turn around and call people "skinny minnie". I am that "skinny minnie" and I have hated it all my life. It is NOT okay to discuss anyone's weight. People do it all the time to be because they think somehow it's okay to comment on "how tiny my wrists are". Yeah...BONY. I struggle too with weight - it's just a different problem.

If I can just get through to one single person that it is NOT a complement to use the term "skinny" then I've accomplished something. Please watch what you say - you are not the only people offended.

[Gray Horse H/J]

I'll just chime in with the "bashing on skinny people is mean too" crowd. When I was 20, I had an office job with the boss from hell. She was quite overweight, and at least twice a week she'd come by and say, "Are you gonna go to lunch today? Oh wait...I forgot, you don't eat." Which is ridiculous, I do eat. She said it like she was joking, but it got old fast. She was a real prize. She bashed on heavier people, too.

I always say that being thin doesn't mean you're fit. I'm 5'5" and 120 lbs, and I have NO upper body strength. I'm not horribly fit, I just don't have a lot of muscle tone, and muscle weighs more than fat. One of my best friends is 5'2" and around 135-ish. She's 3 inches shorter than me and 15 lbs heavier, yet she looks thinner than I do. Why? Because she's in EXCELLENT shape. You would never guess she weighs 135. It's all muscle.

The whole weight debate sucks all around. Thin people get told to eat a cheeseburger (I've heard that one before, directed at me) and heavier people get bashed on for being heavy. It sucks all around.

[Adamantane]

Purely anecdotal stories are just a form of denial. I know, I used to point to all the elderly people who had smoked their entire lives. But insurance statistics and public health studies don't lie. The actuaries don't have any moral disagreement with smoking or obesity. It is just an undeniable fact that you are more likely to get type 2 diabetes, heart disease, cancer and any other number of illnesses if you are overweight.

I also believe that the recent study regarding obesity "contagion" made a good point. People who are around overweight people tend to be overweight. Part of this is lifestyle (eating and exercise habits) and part of this is just a distorted perception of what is an acceptable body image. You don't notice how fat Americans are until you go abroad. When you do, it is absolutely embarrassing to see the fat Americans who can be easily identified by their size.

So if an employer does not want to condone a culture of obesity (or smokng) in his workplace, I think that is his right, as it should be.

Yes, it's a purely anecdotal story, but the happy outcome in this case is not the point. There was no company policy on obesity and I recall there being very few overweight individuals in the organization then or later. The HR functionary who had a mercurial temperament and would make shoot-from-the-hip decisions was making it up as she went along. The reason she relented was that the VP discussed it with the HR VP and the decision was essentially levered out of her hands. (I recall her stomping up to my office door and screeching -- yes, literally -- at me, interrupting me while I was talking on the phone to my boss who specifically had directed me to do what she was screeching at me about and overheard the whole crazy episode. My director subsequently had a heart-to-heart with aforementioned HR VP about professionalism.)

We were urgently staffing up the R&D organization. The limited universe of qualified individuals for the unique requirements of the open position meant that had we (in my opinion, whimsically and arbitrarily) not hired him, it might have been months before someone else suitable had come along. He was not some fungible clerk file or food service worker. Hiring him was in the urgent best interests of the company.

I find it interesting that this particular form of 'health' discrimination is not barred. Seems to me that the same argument was used to justify terminating some people who refused to quit smoking, and I thought they finally prevailed or at least forced a nice settlement. Of course there probably is a different set of rules for hiring versus terminating and that things like this which are legitimate [sic] reasons not to hire are verboten as reasons later to fire. But you're the expert.:yes:

[riverbell93]

I disagree with the practice of making personal comments about other people's bodies, skinny or fat; it's rude, it's intrusive, and it's usually meant nastily, no matter how the speaker claims to be 'concerned' for the target's obesity/anorexia/etc. However, a comment about thinness, no matter how hurtful, is not the same as a comment about fatness. I'm sure rich kids get hurt by comments about their wealth ('spoiled brat' must be fairly common) but it's not the same as a poor kid getting harassed about being poor. Apart from the obvious issue that skinniness carries a host of personal and societal advantages that fatness does not, there's the troubling issue of the source of the comments. Rich/thin comments are fueled largely by jealousy and anxiety; poor/fat comments are fueled largely by hate and contempt. Jealousy has done plenty of harm. But hate and contempt are the two most destructive forces in human nature, the emotions that say it's okay to do what we know instinctively is wrong - ignore, hurt and eliminate other people.

People who are around overweight people tend to be overweight. Part of this is lifestyle (eating and exercise habits) and part of this is just a distorted perception of what is an acceptable body image.

Well, that's certainly a novel way to look at it. Most people seem to feel that Americans' distorted sense of what is normal for body type is affected by popular culture and skews toward skinny, not fat. I'm curious how you would explain why the open hostility directed toward fat people, especially women, in our culture isn't dwindling if we are indeed becoming a nation that perceives normal as fat? And if you do not believe that there is a steady level of hatred directed at fat people, please explain pretty much all of popular culture? :)

[inquisitive]

First, I really don't think your weight should have had anything to do with it. Unfortunately some people are just like that. Sorry you've had to deal with it.

Now...I haven't read the entire thread, only some, but am incredibly offended at some people. How dare you complain about being discriminated against and then turn around and call people "skinny minnie". I am that "skinny minnie" and I have hated it all my life. It is NOT okay to discuss anyone's weight. People do it all the time to be because they think somehow it's okay to comment on "how tiny my wrists are". Yeah...BONY. I struggle too with weight - it's just a different problem.

If I can just get through to one single person that it is NOT a complement to use the term "skinny" then I've accomplished something. Please watch what you say - you are not the only people offended.

:yes: Thank you!

[magnolia73]

I think a large issue is that for some reason we have decided to join up health care with work. How much you pay for healthcare is largely dictated by personal choices (do I drink, smoke, get fat etc.), yet for the most part, your employer, who has no control over your personal health decisions foots the bill for your health care.

I pay my own health insurance, and lame as it sounds, one motivator in my work to get fit and keep losing weight is fear that I will get diabetes or something and my health insurance will go way up and I won't be able to afford things like riding. Sure, if I wasn't footing the bill, it's not as if I would eat Mc D's 3 times a day, but I might be less motivated to run....

So we have made employers even more invested in our health by asking them to pay our medical bills- and we are suprised when employers are now really motivated to only hire fit people?

[Eclectic Horseman]

I disagree with the practice of making personal comments about other people's bodies, skinny or fat; it's rude, it's intrusive, and it's usually meant nastily, no matter how the speaker claims to be 'concerned' for the target's obesity/anorexia/etc. However, a comment about thinness, no matter how hurtful, is not the same as a comment about fatness. I'm sure rich kids get hurt by comments about their wealth ('spoiled brat' must be fairly common) but it's not the same as a poor kid getting harassed about being poor. Apart from the obvious issue that skinniness carries a host of personal and societal advantages that fatness does not, there's the troubling issue of the source of the comments. Rich/thin comments are fueled largely by jealousy and anxiety; poor/fat comments are fueled largely by hate and contempt. Jealousy has done plenty of harm. But hate and contempt are the two most destructive forces in human nature, the emotions that say it's okay to do what we know instinctively is wrong - ignore, hurt and eliminate other people.



Well, that's certainly a novel way to look at it. Most people seem to feel that Americans' distorted sense of what is normal for body type is affected by popular culture and skews toward skinny, not fat. I'm curious how you would explain why the open hostility directed toward fat people, especially women, in our culture isn't dwindling if we are indeed becoming a nation that perceives normal as fat? And if you do not believe that there is a steady level of hatred directed at fat people, please explain pretty much all of popular culture? :)

It has dwindled. You just aren't paying attention. This thread is exhibit A. There was a time when there would be no public discussion, let alone support for an overweight person. Now I think that you will see on this thread that the majority of comments are supportive, not antagonistic. Most of the hostility is directed toward people who are not overweight.

I have noticed this on a number of threads. There is an advanced level eventer who is quite heavy and after she rode at Rolex there were threads on this board saying how wonderful it was to see a woman with a "normal body" at the top of the sport. (As though everyone else who is overweight is being held back due to discrimination. :lol:) Do a search and you will find it. I was amazed.

There are magazines and stores geared toward overweight people. There are reality TV shows now. There are plus sized models. Many clothing manufacturers have increased their sizing so that what was a size 12 is now a size 8. Years ago, overweight was not something that was talked about--it was seen as shameful (which I admit was stigmatizing and unfortunate.)

I'm telling you, I understand where you are coming from. As a smoker, I felt the same way. But being overweight is not healthy and it is not attractive, and it is not something to praise or even to defend.

[riverbell93]

Just to comment on the 'employers are entitled to want to only hire the fit/thin when obesity is a health issue and they have to foot the bill' issue - don't forget lifestyle includes hobbies and sports as well as eating habits and smoking. And we all have a hobby that is more likely to produce health care expenses than, say, scrapbooking. Although those crimping shears can be murder :)

[Nicker]

I disagree with the practice of making personal comments about other people's bodies, skinny or fat; it's rude, it's intrusive, and it's usually meant nastily, no matter how the speaker claims to be 'concerned' for the target's obesity/anorexia/etc. However, a comment about thinness, no matter how hurtful, is not the same as a comment about fatness. I'm sure rich kids get hurt by comments about their wealth ('spoiled brat' must be fairly common) but it's not the same as a poor kid getting harassed about being poor. Apart from the obvious issue that skinniness carries a host of personal and societal advantages that fatness does not, there's the troubling issue of the source of the comments. Rich/thin comments are fueled largely by jealousy and anxiety; poor/fat comments are fueled largely by hate and contempt. Jealousy has done plenty of harm. But hate and contempt are the two most destructive forces in human nature, the emotions that say it's okay to do what we know instinctively is wrong - ignore, hurt and eliminate other people.


I'm sorry but I disagree. Hurtful words sting no matter the reason behind them. I grew up in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in our area. All I had to do was say the name of the neighborhood and kids at school would assume my family was wealthy. What they didn't know was how large our family was and that my Dad built the house. We were definitely above middle class, but not on the same level as our neighbors. I didn't have oodles of clothes, a nice car or even a horse(though I begged constantly for one) like the other kids in te neighborhood. Many a hurtful word was slung at me, every thing from if your parents are so rich why don't you wear nice clothes to you wouldn't understand your parents can probably buy you anything you want. I hated where we lived! I was shunned by the kids in my neighborhood and shunned by the "poorer" kids at school.

[Adamantane]

So we have made employers even more invested in our health by asking them to pay our medical bills- and we are suprised when employers are now really motivated to only hire fit people?

Healthcare costs [whether borne by individuals or employers] wouldn't be such a significant issue if there weren't the pervasive notion that everyone must have Cadillac healthcare and that all medical failures are due to negligence rather than the inherent limits to medical science and diagnostic failures ascribable to individual idiosyncracy. According to physicians I have spoken to, 95 percent of medical treatment can be competently provided by trained non-physicians where the manageable devil is in training such non-MD practitioners to know when they need to call in the MD's or DO's. But now everybody insists that the existence of the simplest sprains and strains must be ascertained by a physician and further vetted by a board-certified orthopod, diagnosed definitively by three different kinds of horrendously expensive technology, and that exotic causes of which only a handful of examples ever have been recorded must be definitively excluded. :no:

[MistyBlue]

However, a comment about thinness, no matter how hurtful, is not the same as a comment about fatness. I'm sure rich kids get hurt by comments about their wealth ('spoiled brat' must be fairly common) but it's not the same as a poor kid getting harassed about being poor. Apart from the obvious issue that skinniness carries a host of personal and societal advantages that fatness does not, there's the troubling issue of the source of the comments. Rich/thin comments are fueled largely by jealousy and anxiety; poor/fat comments are fueled largely by hate and contempt. Jealousy has done plenty of harm. But hate and contempt are the two most destructive forces in human nature, the emotions that say it's okay to do what we know instinctively is wrong - ignore, hurt and eliminate other people.


This is a misunderstanding IMO. I don't think the comments non-overweight people hear are from anxiety and jealousy only. I do think it's also from contempt and hate. Does jealousy make 2 adult women yammer loudly in public that a mother who's not overweight has to be a druggy to be her weight while her pre-teen daughter is standing right there listening to that?
And it's only overweight people who feel hurt when insulted publicly? Seriously? Because some may have either been born with a high metabolism or because some may work extremely hard at nutrition and exercise to stay healthy...and because that "look" is seen most often in the media...it's more accceptable for them to hear comments from people...just because the obnoxiously rude people commenting might be over the media accepted weight and that's hurtful to them? So it makes it more okay for them to jeer and insult those who work at being healthy and assume the only reason they look like they do is because they won a genetic lottery, or because they do drugs? And they become even more insutling and ride when they hear that the person has to watch what they eat constantly and work out often to maintain a healthy weight they become worse. That's not hate? Really? :confused: :(

[riverbell93]

There are magazines and stores geared toward overweight people. There are reality TV shows now. There are plus sized models. Many clothing manufacturers have increased their sizing so that what was a size 12 is now a size 8. Years ago, overweight was not something that was talked about--it was seen as shameful (which I admit was stigmatizing and unfortunate.)

I've also read the 'obesity epidemic' news stories, but I do not see that tolerance of fat people is not the reason for the increase in fat people. I believe it's the rise for the increase in visible fat people, but not the fat itself. That's more likely attributable to other changes in society.

But being overweight is not healthy and it is not attractive, and it is not something to praise or even to defend.

I've read the (mostly British) social activists who've given fat celebration a shot. I've heard of people who find it attractive. I'll confess, I find both ideas less than convincing. But that's honestly not my idea; I simply can't shake the lifelong lessons of 'fat=pathetic' that I've absorbed through thousands of movies, TV shows, books, etc. I can't praise it or defend fat, it'd be hypocritical since I don't like it. But I think it's better to accept and tolerate fat people than to practice 'moral disapproval' to try to force people to lose weight and be healthy. I don't think it would work, frankly; not with the general move toward tolerance and diversity that marks our culture. It would take some doing to convince fat people that they're being lumped in with criminals and extremists (the other 'different' people who are not going to get tolerated no matter how warm and fuzzy we become) for their own good. And apart from the practical aspect, I think it's evil. Fat doesn't warrant the cold shoulder; it's an appearance issue for people outside the fat person's skin. Yes, you can argue it's also an expense issue, but you can also use that argument to force people to stop skiing, getting pregnant or - riding horses, all expensive drains on the funds of most companies' health insurance.

[Eclectic Horseman]

I've also read the 'obesity epidemic' news stories, but I do not see that tolerance of fat people is not the reason for the increase in fat people. I believe it's the rise for the increase in visible fat people, but not the fat itself. That's more likely attributable to other changes in society.



I've read the (mostly British) social activists who've given fat celebration a shot. I've heard of people who find it attractive. I'll confess, I find both ideas less than convincing. But that's honestly not my idea; I simply can't shake the lifelong lessons of 'fat=pathetic' that I've absorbed through thousands of movies, TV shows, books, etc. I can't praise it or defend fat, it'd be hypocritical since I don't like it. But I think it's better to accept and tolerate fat people than to practice 'moral disapproval' to try to force people to lose weight and be healthy. I don't think it would work, frankly; not with the general move toward tolerance and diversity that marks our culture. It would take some doing to convince fat people that they're being lumped in with criminals and extremists (the other 'different' people who are not going to get tolerated no matter how warm and fuzzy we become) for their own good. And apart from the practical aspect, I think it's evil. Fat doesn't warrant the cold shoulder; it's an appearance issue for people outside the fat person's skin. Yes, you can argue it's also an expense issue, but you can also use that argument to force people to stop skiing, getting pregnant or - riding horses, all expensive drains on the funds of most companies' health insurance.

Ah, but it did work for smokers. What used to be seen as "cool" and "hip" is now completely anathema. If the same pressures are brought to bear, the same can happen with the obesity epidemic as happened with smoking.

[dressagetraks]

The line at which an attitude crosses to hatred/contempt is dependent on the individual making the comments, NOT on the issue on which they are commenting.

I was picked on throughout school because of grades, because I got good ones. Some of the other kids constantly ran me down, found ways to dig at me, tried (unsuccessfully, thank you Mom) to undermine my self worth, etc. I have no doubt this was based on jealousy, also on the fact that many teachers graded on a curve, and one specific teacher (who had his own serious issues, obviously) would announce clearly that so many other people had lost a grade on the scale because I did so well. Anyway, lots of flak, certainly based from jealousy. Some of this stopped at jealousy. Some went on to hatred and contempt.

Then one day, when we were in gym, with the girls on the bleachers watching the boys do an activity and waiting our turn, one of these "simply jealous" girls pushed me off the edge of the bleacher. I fell about 12 feet and landed on my right knee on concrete, and it basically squashed itself inside instead of breaking. I have had multiple surgeries on this knee, there is permanent damage from this, and it has seriously affected my life. On the positive side, I can predict weather better than a meterologist. In fact, one of the things I enjoy most about my horses is the almost intoxicating feeling of having four sound legs going underneath you, not having to favor one, no stiffness, no pain. But when did that person cross the line from "mere" jealousy into hatred and contempt? I do not believe it was that day she pushed me. I think her hatred and contempt had evolved much earlier. I could feel it in her words to me long before that incident. Jealousy had turned to hate.

Jealousy isn't mutually exclusive of hatred. Any comment against anybody's appearance (unless you were asked by that person as a friend for an opinion, and then be gentle) or any stereotypical remarks are, IMO, all equally offensive and all reflect negatively on the person who gave them.

[riverbell93]

That's not hate? Really? :confused: :(

I was thinking after I posted, and I believe that it would have been more accurate to omit 'hate' from that sentence. Because I do think many 'skinny minny' comments are motivated by hate. But - marketers are rich because of the fact that people in a society share certain unspoken and sometimes unconscious opinions and views on various issues. When X calls Y fat, X has the whole culture behind his/her words, and Y knows it. That's much more powerful and destructive than Y calling X skinny. I know it's still hurtful, and I think calling a skinny woman a druggie is nasty and wrong.

[riverbell93]

Ah, but it did work for smokers. What used to be seen as "cool" and "hip" is now completely anathema. If the same pressures are brought to bear, the same can happen with the obesity epidemic as happened with smoking.

I'm not sure. The anti-smoking campaign didn't take off until it was proven that second-hand smoke could kill you. Second-hand fat :) may affect your life through higher insurance premiums and uncomfortable plane rides, but until it's shown to directly kill small children, I think you're out of luck on that hope.

[HappyHoppingHaffy]

The employer is probably worried you will throw Twinkies at the anorexic clients.

Anorexia shouldn't be joked about either; in fact AN has the highest mortality rate of any mental illness. (I believe ~60%).
I use to work with teenage girls with AN (I believe the population you're joking about in your post) and have seen the dibilitating effects on girls and their families. In fact, I even had a girl pass away from the effects of her AN.
I think the OP may be overly sensitive about weight and maybe assumed they didn't want to higher her if she's chubby/overweight.
Personally, I don't care if you call me a "skinny mini" b/c I'm a size 4, but don't be offended if I call you a "fat *ss", either. :o

[asb2517]

There are magazines and stores geared toward overweight people. There are reality TV shows now. There are plus sized models. Many clothing manufacturers have increased their sizing so that what was a size 12 is now a size 8. Years ago, overweight was not something that was talked about--it was seen as shameful (which I admit was stigmatizing and unfortunate.)


I can only think of one TV reality show about overweight people...it's called "The Biggest LOSER". Is that a play on words? Also the above quote mentions "plus" sized models...what size are these models usually 12's or 14's or maybe (gasp) a 16? Why don't they call "regular" size models Minus Sized models? I think most the culture today has warped most of us into thinking we all need to be a size 5 (or smaller), when in reality there is nothing wrong with being a size 14.


I agree, there is nothing healthy about being morbidly obese...but I also don't think there is anything wrong with being a size 14 or 16. Like my Daddy always said "Big girls got big feelings!" LOL :lol:

As far as thin girls go, there is NO way you can get me to believe that you were picked on as much as the fat girl in school, especially in middle or high school. I was neither thin or fat, but in my experience it is WAY easier and more common to pick on a fat person than a skinny person.

edited to say: This last paragraph is NOT to say it's okay to pick on ANYONE, but that I feel it is more common to pick on us "fluffy" girls!

[JoZ]

Ah, but it did work for smokers. What used to be seen as "cool" and "hip" is now completely anathema. If the same pressures are brought to bear, the same can happen with the obesity epidemic as happened with smoking.

Yeah, we just have to effect that sea change and make obesity no longer cool and hip.

Looking for a fruitbat...

What is needed is to make getting off one's butt cool and hip... put down the remote and the joystick and do something. I've been fat all my life but as a kid I never ever stopped running and playing. Breakfast, do the dishes, out to play till lunch, repeat till dinner, repeat till bedtime. I'd hate to think what I would've been like if I had sat at a TV or PC for 18 hours a day.

I am fat AND a smoker, double whammy. The food addiction is much much more insidious. It reminds me of the dialogue in The Little Prince (which I'm about to butcher) -- Why do you eat? I eat to forget. Forget what? Forget that I am depressed. Why are you depressed? Because I am FAT.

[twhrider13]

Ah, but it did work for smokers. What used to be seen as "cool" and "hip" is now completely anathema. If the same pressures are brought to bear, the same can happen with the obesity epidemic as happened with smoking.

And people still smoke, don't they? As someone who's been "bigger" my entire life, I can tell you, outside pressure doesn't help at all for people who eat to cope.

I'm 5'9". When I weighed 170, I was in fabulous shape, but, OMG, I weighed nearly 200 pounds!!!!! :eek: Now, I'm a lot bigger than I was then, but even then, I heard how easy it was to stop eating and start exercising. I didn't eat that much, and I did exercise a lot more than the thinner people around me. One can only struggle against genetics so much. I'm built like a man, I have the bone structure of a man, and I gain weight like a man (through the tummy and upper arms). For me to really fall into the range of "normal" weights, I'd have had to amputate something.

Pressuring someone to do something is hardly going to help. The desire to change comes from within. I'll give you an example. I'm really, really, somewhat painfully shy. People think it's their right to make comments to my face about, "OMG, you don't ever SAY anything. Why don't you ever talk?" Do they think I've never noticed that I'm not as talkative as they are? Do they think that their comments helped? Am I supposed to say, "Well, thank you SO much. Now that you've pointed it out, I'm healed"? Do they think that calling attention to the problem and making me MORE self-conscious about it is going to suddenly turn me bubbly and outgoing? Hardly. The more nervous and self-conscious I am, the less I talk. Why do they do it? Who knows? Genuine ignorance or a desire to be hateful and couch it in laughing terms? It's just obnoxious. I don't run up to them and make cracks about how they talk all the time and never shut the %^@! up, even though that's what I secretly think about them. It works the same way with people who are overweight.

I'm fat. I know and accept it. I'm doing the best I can to change it, but other people constantly harping on it are not going to do jack $^!* to change it.

[sublimequine]

The only reason I can think of is what others mentioned about being able to do the whole manual labor thing. But at that, you'd think they'd just ask outright, 'Can you haul bales? Lug water buckets?' Etc.

And I am also appalled at all the folks saying just because skinny chicks don't get ridiculed as much, it somehow makes it less hurtful. I'm nearly 5'10", and just over 100 lbs. Yes, I am 'officially' classified as underweight. I also have an extremely fast metabolism that basically makes me hungry all the time. I can eat more than my shorter, much heavier father can, no problem. But it never adds weight.

I don't know how many times I've been told I can't do my dream job (farrier) because I'm slightly built. Almost every farrier I've ever spoken to, when I mention I want to go to farrier school, they chuckle condescendingly and say something ignorant like "You're awful small for that" or "Better start lifting weights".

Not to mention how often I get accused of being anorexic or bulimic. For goodness sake, it's called a fast metabolism. Was born with it, have always been like it, probably not gonna change.

People can kiss my bony ass. ;)

[caffeinated]

As far as thin girls go, there is NO way you can get me to believe that you were picked on as much as the fat girl in school, especially in middle or high school. I was neither thin or fat, but in my experience it is WAY easier and more common to pick on a fat person than a skinny person.

It's just a different kind of "picking on"

I don't recall getting much as a kid (at least in regards to my weight, I did get it because of my last name, my glasses, my shy nature, and general social awkwardness), honestly, but as an adult I've noticed that it's "OK" for people to make comments about me that would sound horrific if they were said about an overweight person.

People especially love to comment about what I eat for lunch. If I reversed the situation and said something about what a heavy person were eating, it would be considered very rude and offensive. But yet almost every day, someone feels it's OK to talk about what I am or am not eating, and how it relates to my body size- and these are adults!

In the end, it's all about making assumptions about people based on looks and size, and snarking on them because either they're uglier than you or prettier than you, and that sucks, no matter who is the object of it.

And I'm sure that I've done the same, seeing a thin girl at Fair Hill who looked like she was about to faint as her horse came out of the water, saying "she needs a cheeseburger," so I'm as guilty as anyone, I'm sure.

The other thing is that everybody always thinks that their experience is worse than other peoples'- "oh, no one picked on YOU in school like they picked on me!" I would guarantee that everyone, even the people you thought were popular, had a pretty miserable time at some point and thought others were quite mean to them. You may think other people had it easy for being prettier/thinner/smarter or what have you, but everybody has their sore spots.

[RoyalTRider]

People especially love to comment about what I eat for lunch. If I reversed the situation and said something about what a heavy person were eating, it would be considered very rude and offensive. But yet almost every day, someone feels it's OK to talk about what I am or am not eating, and how it relates to my body size- and these are adults!


Yep, same here. :yes:

[asb2517]

In the end, it's all about making assumptions about people based on looks and size, and snarking on them because either they're uglier than you or prettier than you, and that sucks, no matter who is the object of it.

And I'm sure that I've done the same, seeing a thin girl at Fair Hill who looked like she was about to faint as her horse came out of the water, saying "she needs a cheeseburger," so I'm as guilty as anyone, I'm sure.

The other thing is that everybody always thinks that their experience is worse than other peoples'- "oh, no one picked on YOU in school like they picked on me!" I would guarantee that everyone, even the people you thought were popular, had a pretty miserable time at some point and thought others were quite mean to them. You may think other people had it easy for being prettier/thinner/smarter or what have you, but everybody has their sore spots.

Of course everyone has their sore spots, everyone has heard of the homecoming queen sitting at home on a Friday night with no date, whatever. Maybe I grew up or live on a different planet or something, but in MY experience, MOST of the snarky comments I have heard in my lifetime have been geared toward "bigger" girls and that's all I was saying. I wasn't implying that someone who was picked on for being smelly or being too tall or smart or being to whatever had it easier than the fat chick crying in the corner. Being picked on for any reason sucks.

I think it is human nature to make assumptions about people based on their physical appearance, is this right? NOooo...but do we do it....YES...even those of us try not to.

[caffeinated]

Maybe I grew up or live on a different planet or something, but in MY experience, MOST of the snarky comments I have heard in my lifetime have been geared toward "bigger" girls and that's all I was saying.

Well that's kind of what I was saying too- we all have our sore spots, so we're going to notice the things that poke at those sore spots more. I'm going to notice more when people make comments about skinny "minis" or people in glasses because I'm extra sensitive to those things (or, as is more appropriate now, I notice nasty comments and preoccupation with cellulite because I happen to have a lot of it, heh). Just because you (or I) don't notice people getting picked on for other things does not mean that it doesn't happen or isn't equally painful for those people.

[Trixie]

As far as thin girls go, there is NO way you can get me to believe that you were picked on as much as the fat girl in school, especially in middle or high school. I was neither thin or fat, but in my experience it is WAY easier and more common to pick on a fat person than a skinny person.

The other thing is that everybody always thinks that their experience is worse than other peoples'- "oh, no one picked on YOU in school like they picked on me!" I would guarantee that everyone, even the people you thought were popular, had a pretty miserable time at some point and thought others were quite mean to them. You may think other people had it easy for being prettier/thinner/smarter or what have you, but everybody has their sore spots.

I agree with the second poster. I'm really sick of the attitude in this thread that Person A's experience couldn't POSSIBLY compare to Person B's - how would Person A know that?

Frankly, as far as I can tell, middle school/high school was on some level pretty crappy for most people. It's just a crappy time. And there are VERY few people in this world who haven't been picked on about SOMETHING - and MOST people move on from that eventually.

I may have grown up skinny, but I can give you a laundry list of things (including but certainly not limited to being too skinny) that people made fun of me for. The experience is not exclusive to weight.

[MistyBlue]

I think a misconception may be that people seem to believe that "losing weight to be healthy" *has* to equate to being a ridiculously small clothing size or that the person is then expected to look like a movie star or runway model. Of course everyone is built differently...and if everyone in this country suddenly ate *only* healthy foods without cheating and suddenly started doing the best work outs for themselves religiously...people would still be all sizes, shapes and looks.
The media portrays the current fad look...when people start to aspire to looking only like what the media currently deams beautiful...they're bound to be disappointed. The media chooses the very few who look a certain way only...and for a reason: Consumers buy out of fantasy. They do not want to be peddled reality...sales go down dramatically when that happens. Only recently has anti-wrinkle creams been marketing with models or spokespeople actually old enough to have wrinkles...and that's still not the normal way to market those products. The majority are still marketed with models between the ages of 24-28...because people see the product and see a youthful and aesthetically pleasing person and want the same for themselves. IMO...it's marketing done for the dumb...but it works. :winkgrin:
Look at the hair color commercials...does *anyone* really think Sarah Jessica Parker goes to CVS and buys Garnier Nutrisse to color her hair at home? Really? She's going to a top salon and having her coloring done by top pros for top dollar folks. She's not sporting a hair color from a $10 CVS box of dye. (the company even uses a French name and pronciation for the product name when it's made right here in the USA because foreign also sells. BTW...Victoria Secret is an American company also...despite the English accent used to advertise them. Face it, we're stupid consumers on average to believe this crap) (Oh, and Jaguars are pronounced Jagwars, not Jag-you-ahs :lol: the accent does not justify the pricing)
If people are marketing clothes, cars, vacations, credit cards, whatever...they use the most currently attractive look possible. Fantasy and sex sells. Period. Why the current population blames the media for what they think they personally should look like is beyond me. It would seem only the most foolish would fall for our current marketing trends.
Diversity is attractive...not carbon copies of the unattainable look that was genetically given to a very small percentage of the humans on this earth. Looks vary over time for what's considered "in" or "hot." In time the looks will change again...extremely tall and extremely thin will not be the end all/be all that some people seem to buy as gospel from the media.
And FWIW...I've been on both sides of the weight issue. And yes...when you're thin to very thin you do hear a *lot* more crap about your body from complete strangers than you do when overweight. And if you really want to hear a lot of crap from strangers...try being very muscular and a female. Apparently I'm one helluva butch scary manster woman with an eating disorder and on steroids. (none of which is true) And women are our own worst enemies...I never heard shite from males whether fat, too skinny or muscular. It's *always* from other women. Bitchy broads not happy with their own selves...who seem to think it's quite alright to bitch to everyone else who's something they dislike for whatever reason.

[asb2517]

I agree with the second poster. I'm really sick of the attitude in this thread that Person A's experience couldn't POSSIBLY compare to Person B's - how would Person A know that?

Frankly, as far as I can tell, middle school/high school was on some level pretty crappy for most people. It's just a crappy time. And there are VERY few people in this world who haven't been picked on about SOMETHING - and MOST people move on from that eventually.

I may have grown up skinny, but I can give you a laundry list of things (including but certainly not limited to being too skinny) that people made fun of me for. The experience is not exclusive to weight.

Face it...in our society it is WAY more "popular" to be thin than fat. Enough said.

AND I repeat, I was neither fat or skinny I was just medium built, so I wasn't posting from my past experience. Maybe I just hung around people who liked to make fun of fat people and that's why I think they were picked on more?? :lol:

[ReeseTheBeast]

Anorexia shouldn't be joked about either; in fact AN has the highest mortality rate of any mental illness. (I believe ~60%).
I use to work with teenage girls with AN (I believe the population you're joking about in your post) and have seen the dibilitating effects on girls and their families. In fact, I even had a girl pass away from the effects of her AN.
...
Personally, I don't care if you call me a "skinny mini" b/c I'm a size 4, but don't be offended if I call you a "fat *ss", either. :o

Thank you for this post, HHH (on both accounts!)

I don't understand why people seem to think that if one is of thin build, they are somehow obligated to endure criticizm, accusations of eating disorders, general insulting attitudes from others "just on principal": seems like a lot of individuals think that a thin person is just supposed to graciously accept whatever unsolicited commentary regarding their bodies that someone else decides to dole out to them for the sole reason that the thin person is not overweight. Kind of like, "you're thin so these remarks can't possibly hurt your feelings."

I have a high metabolism. I have always been thin. However, I have also dealt with anorexia for the last 8 years. And that has nothing to do with wanting to be skinny and walk a runway, it's about control. Nothing more, nothing less. Just as some people deal with their problems by binge eating, I have had a history of dealing with my problems by not eating at all. Are either outlets healthy? Hell no. But I hid it underneath layers of baggy clothes, so clearly, my problem wouldn't be as apparent as someone with the opposite problem.

I've always wished that before anyone chose to open their mouth to say things to me along the lines of, "It must be nice, you've never had to deal with being overweight," or, "You wouldn't understand the issues I have with food and the problems that come from it, since you're so skinny," that they'd shut up, stop, and think- maybe things aren't always as they seem and little do they know, I *do* understand. It's just that my understanding is on a different parallel; but it's an understanding nonetheless. There's more to all of us than what's apparent from the outside, it's just that sometimes people are too wrapped up in themselves to consider that.

If this post comes across as bitchy, then good. That was my intent, and maybe it will make some people use their brains before their mouths and [flawed] judgement. :o

But, back to the matter at hand, the OP- I would need to know more information and the context of the questioning before concluding anything, but if I were in the situation just as it stands/sounds in the OP, I'd damn sure be finding out why they asked those questions. According actions to be taken contingent upon response, of course.

[Mayaty02]

it means you cannot discriminate for an explcitly prohibited reason
those specifically prohibited reasons beyond the federal Title VII and ADA ones (disability, race, gender, religion, national origin, etc) vary by state but you can most certainly discriminate on the basis of weight in some states unless the person is so overweight that they arguably fall within the parameters of the ADA
An employer can not hire you or fire you for non-performance reasons unless it is specifically prohibited by a federal or state law (and some states include personal apperance in their state Title VII equivalents)
Obviously not saying they should but immoral, unethical and unfair often do not equate with illegal


I was referring to the morbidly obese that would be covered by ADA, not just a size 14 :) but I have been in HR for 15 yrs and if one of my hiring managers ever asked someone's weight in an interview, I'd rip them a new you know what. No employer wants to be sued, or even threatened with a suit, as it is bad PR and costs $$$$ to defend, bogus or not. Yes in at will state, anyone can be fired or any reason, but also anyone can sue you so better be sure you're buttoned up. That overweight woman is in a protected class because she's a woman, and she might be over 40....and that is a protected class... So unless you are a white male under 40, I always recommend you have a darn good reason before firing someone. Yes I am generalizing as I'd rather not get into a deep discussion of Title XII and ADA on the COTH bulletin board :)

[Gayla]

It is just an undeniable fact that you are more likely to get type 2 diabetes, heart disease, cancer and any other number of illnesses if you are overweight.



There was just an article in the NYT about this very issue. It is called an information cascade or something. These "facts" have been echoed so many times that people believe it is real. But actually, there is no tie between obesity and these health problems. the really sad fact is that because of this misinformation many people go undiagnosed with diabetes. Because most Americans think that it is so linked with being fat that if they are not they don't worry about it and neither do their doctors. Go look it up for yourself. get the facts. It is not supported by science.
diabetes (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/health/20diabetes.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)
information cascade (http://http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/how-the-low-fat-low-fact-cascade-just-keeps-rolling-along/)

[Trixie]

Face it...in our society it is WAY more "popular" to be thin than fat. Enough said.

AND I repeat, I was neither fat or skinny I was just medium built, so I wasn't posting from my past experience. Maybe I just hung around people who liked to make fun of fat people and that's why I think they were picked on more??

Charming group of friends, yours. :D

Did you actually read my post? It was all about how it is NOT RELEVANT which is more popular or which is worse. As I said "The experience is not exclusive to weight."

[asb2517]

Charming group of friends, yours. :D

Did you actually read my post? It was all about how it is NOT RELEVANT which is more popular or which is worse. As I said "The experience is not exclusive to weight."

Okay...I re-read your post again...SLOWLY this time and get it now. SORRY!! You can make fun of me for not comprehending you if you want to! :lol: (JOKING!)

[PineTreeFarm]

There was just an article in the NYT about this very issue. It is called an information cascade or something. These "facts" have been echoed so many times that people believe it is real. But actually, there is no tie between obesity and these health problems. the really sad fact is that because of this misinformation many people go undiagnosed with diabetes. Because most Americans think that it is so linked with being fat that if they are not they don't worry about it and neither do their doctors. Go look it up for yourself. get the facts. It is not supported by science.
diabetes (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/20/health/20diabetes.html?_r=1&oref=slogin)
information cascade (http://http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/how-the-low-fat-low-fact-cascade-just-keeps-rolling-along/)

The sad thing is you really seem to think that's true.

[Kementari]

Back to the purpose of the first post, it is absolutely illegal to ask about your weight, age, height, disability, race, gender, etc etc in the employment process. Yes an insurance company to whom you are applying for insurance can inquire and has the right to deny or accept you based on any factors which create risk for them. An employer does not.

I agree that you don't want that job anyway if that's how they operate, BUT I would call them back and say, "hey I've spoken to some attorney friends of mine about your interviewing process and specifically your question about my weight, and quite frankly I could and should sue you for discrimination. I won't because I would never work for a classless organization/barn as yours but just so you know..."

Weight is not a protected class in the US (or in any individual state that I know of). It is PERFECTLY legal to discriminate based on weight (I'm not saying whether it's morally right or wrong, but it IS legal). It is also legal to discriminate based on height, age if it is against someone younger than 40, and, technically, gender in most places (discrimination based on sex is illegal: sex is the biological construct; gender is sociological and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what's between your legs). You can hire or fire someone for any reason or no reason, as long as it's not a specifically protected reason: race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age (if 40 or over), citizenship status, disability, military status, or membership in a union. (Some states provide further protections, the most common of which - though still FAR from universal - are probably marital status, sexual orientation, and smoking when OFF the job.) And, incidentally, you can discriminate against a protected class if you have a bona fide qualification: for example, a girls' camp has every right to hire only female cabin counselors.

I can refuse to hire someone because they are blond. I can refuse to hire someone because they have blue nail polish. I can refuse to hire someone because their boobs are too big. I can refuse to hire someone because they had a sunburn on the day they interviewed. I can refuse to hire someone because their teeth are too straight. I can refuse to hire someone for all sorts of stupid, non-job performance related reasons - including their weight. And, honestly, if I don't want to hire someone because of a protected status, all I have to do is make up some other reason, and as long as I've been careful in not spreading around that I won't hire, say, black people, I'll be fine. (Once again, I'm not saying any of this is morally RIGHT, just that it's fact.)

And no, I'm not an attorney (my knowledge of the subject is because my mother practices employment law), and this is a BB conversation, not legal advice. ;)

[J Swan]

If you think it's ok for an employer to dictate how you live your private life - just wait until they decide that your horse sport/hobby may involve too much risk and they fire you.


Still think it's ok?


An employer does not have xray vision - they cannot determine who poses the greatest risk to their health care costs merely by looking at the person. While an obese person may have a greater risk of certain conditions, the woman next to him, normal in appearance, may drive up costs due to breast cancer. Or the guy down the hall, who works out daily, has a heart attack, suffers brain damage, and needs care for the rest of his life.

Weight is a rather pathetic reason to discriminate against a person. We're all going to die of something, or get sick from something. It's just a matter of time. Heck - the older you are greater the risk of certain illnesses. That's not a reason to fire a person when they're 39.

As I posted before, insurance companies have targeted our leisure activities in an attempt to save money as well. The horse industry, among others, has worked vigorously to protect equestrians from being denied coverage due to our hobby/sport.

Insurance companies and employers, one seeking to drive up profit, the other seeking to lower costs, seek to exclude activities such as horseback riding, skydiving, or other sports/hobbies from being covered under an insurance plan.

All this stuff justifying discrimination against a certain type of person sounds all fine and good until the spotlight is turned on something that is important to you.

If you were fired because your employer thought riding was too risky and might drive up health care costs...... how would y'all feel about that? Or maybe your employer tells you that in order for your kids to get on your policy - they can't ride horses. Or play soccer.

Thing is - you can't argue against it. There is no defense. You can't say - well, I just do dressage - I don't jump. Or, I just trail ride. Or - I ride with a safety helmet.

You either take the risk you won't get hurt while doing a prohibited activity - or you find a new job. And more employers are giving employees the high hat when it comes to benefits. Personally, I'd rather an employer do the best it can to find a decent plan that covers every class of person rather than pick and choose whose sports get covered, what diseases get covered, etc.

[Mayaty02]

Weight is not a protected class in the US (or in any individual state that I know of). It is PERFECTLY legal to discriminate based on weight (I'm not saying whether it's morally right or wrong, but it IS legal). It is also legal to discriminate based on height, age if it is against someone younger than 40, and, technically, gender in most places (discrimination based on sex is illegal: sex is the biological construct; gender is sociological and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what's between your legs). You can hire or fire someone for any reason or no reason, as long as it's not a specifically protected reason: race, color, religion, sex, national origin, age (if 40 or over), citizenship status, disability, military status, or membership in a union. (Some states provide further protections, the most common of which - though still FAR from universal - are probably marital status, sexual orientation, and smoking when OFF the job.) And, incidentally, you can discriminate against a protected class if you have a bona fide qualification: for example, a girls' camp has every right to hire only female cabin counselors.

I can refuse to hire someone because they are blond. I can refuse to hire someone because they have blue nail polish. I can refuse to hire someone because their boobs are too big. I can refuse to hire someone because they had a sunburn on the day they interviewed. I can refuse to hire someone because their teeth are too straight. I can refuse to hire someone for all sorts of stupid, non-job performance related reasons - including their weight. And, honestly, if I don't want to hire someone because of a protected status, all I have to do is make up some other reason, and as long as I've been careful in not spreading around that I won't hire, say, black people, I'll be fine. (Once again, I'm not saying any of this is morally RIGHT, just that it's fact.)

And no, I'm not an attorney (my knowledge of the subject is because my mother practices employment law), and this is a BB conversation, not legal advice. ;)

yes I know I expanded on my initial posting in subsequent posts...but I still don't think it's alright to ask someone their weight...sure you can decide not to hire them because of their weight, but to ask them what it is? That is none of their business and I would absolutely threaten to sue, even if I have no chance of actually winning :) oh and a morbidly obese person could very well be covered under the ADA, which is also a potential legal minefield.

[MistyBlue]

There was just an article in the NYT about this very issue. It is called an information cascade or something. These "facts" have been echoed so many times that people believe it is real. But actually, there is no tie between obesity and these health problems. the really sad fact is that because of this misinformation many people go undiagnosed with diabetes. Because most Americans think that it is so linked with being fat that if they are not they don't worry about it and neither do their doctors. Go look it up for yourself. get the facts. It is not supported by science.


From the CDC:


Overweight and obese individuals are at increased risk for many diseases and health conditions, including the following:

Hypertension (high blood pressure)
Osteoarthritis (a degeneration of cartilage and its underlying bone within a joint)
Dyslipidemia (for example, high total cholesterol or high levels of triglycerides)
Type 2 diabetes
Coronary heart disease
Stroke
Gallbladder disease
Sleep apnea and respiratory problems
Some cancers (endometrial, breast, and colon)From the AMA:
Obesity increases a person's risk of illness and death due to diabetes (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/diabetes), stroke (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/stroke), heart diesease, high blood pressure (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/hypertension), high cholesterol (http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/cholesterol-high-1), and kidney and gallbladder disease (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/gallbladder-disease). Obesity may increase the risk for some types of cancer (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/cancer). It is also a risk factor for the development of osteoarthritis (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/osteoarthritis) and sleep apnea (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/sleep-apnea).

Two of my sisters are RNs and my mother and other sister work in insurance (as do many people in CT, we seem to be all insurance companies) for years. The vast majority of people with the above issues are overweight to obese. It may not be people that you personally know...but the statistics say otherwise.

[RU2U]

I never would have commented on this, BUT recently we had an employee get investigated for insurance fraud for a preexisting condition (ninny waited 1 day past the six month marker to get diagnosed with prostate cancer) Yup, honestly I think he suspected something before he hired on, he deserves treatment, but he made himself look very suspicious. Now another emplyee's wife is waiting for that six month marker before she trys to get her stomache stapled for obesity. (She has no job, no responsibilitys and eats all day - her husbands words not mine), now I have another employee who is complaining because we switched to a 80/20 plan and she is ER addicted, they know her there, and now has to pay for it, she also has five kids in psych thereapy, not sure why. I now have to look at employees alittle different, not just their potential as an asset but also as a liability. I would still hire on the basis of their abilitys, but I would have to also keep in mind what their insurance is gonna cost me. The gal with the kids costs over 1200/mon. to insure!

So if you want to add to disrimination add: Women with kids, men over 50 and men with sloths at home. I would take an over weight person any day that does their job and is dependable, couldn't be any worse then what we've got now!

By the way we can't ask about kids, prior health conditions or even marital status in a job interview, but as an employer we are obligated to pay for any of it when we hire someone on, and we certainly can't fire an individual for it.

My advice is the pool of potential employees is not that great any way, so you got to win them over in the interview and you certainly have the ability to do that, stress your dependability and you'll get the job. Obesity is minor and unless they are a real a$$ it won't make a difference any way. and if they are an a$$ well you didn't want to work for them anyway.

Goodluck!

[Kementari]

yes I know I expanded on my initial posting in subsequent posts...but I still don't think it's alright to ask someone their weight...sure you can decide not to hire them because of their weight, but to ask them what it is? That is none of their business and I would absolutely threaten to sue, even if I have no chance of actually winning :) oh and a morbidly obese person could very well be covered under the ADA, which is also a potential legal minefield.

Like I said, I'm not arguing that it's ETHICAL - just that it's legal. Morbidly obese could certainly give you an ADA complaint, though insofar as working in a barn or with horses is concerned, an employer could easily argue in that case that someone so overweight probably couldn't do the job even WITH reasonable accommodations.

I wouldn't threaten to sue for two reasons: first, if the BO is legally savvy at all, they are just going to think you are ignorant, and know that you have no cause of action; second, no one likes people who go around threatening lawsuits (even justifiable ones, for that matter). Even if you don't go through with the threat, the fact that you made it could easily get around - and is a perfectly legitimate reason for other employers to steer clear of you. While that may (or may not!) be worth it for an actual case, I, personally, wouldn't take the risk for an empty threat.

[J Swan]

From the CDC:


Overweight and obese individuals are at increased risk for many diseases and health conditions, including the following:
Hypertension (high blood pressure)
Osteoarthritis (a degeneration of cartilage and its underlying bone within a joint)
Dyslipidemia (for example, high total cholesterol or high levels of triglycerides)
Type 2 diabetes
Coronary heart disease
Stroke
Gallbladder disease
Sleep apnea and respiratory problems
Some cancers (endometrial, breast, and colon)From the AMA:
Obesity increases a person's risk of illness and death due to diabetes (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/diabetes), stroke (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/stroke), heart diesease, high blood pressure (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/hypertension), high cholesterol (http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/cholesterol-high-1), and kidney and gallbladder disease (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/gallbladder-disease). Obesity may increase the risk for some types of cancer (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/cancer). It is also a risk factor for the development of osteoarthritis (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/osteoarthritis) and sleep apnea (http://www.healthline.com/adamcontent/sleep-apnea).

Two of my sisters are RNs and my mother and other sister work in insurance (as do many people in CT, we seem to be all insurance companies) for years. The vast majority of people with the above issues are overweight to obese. It may not be people that you personally know...but the statistics say otherwise.

Everything we do increases our risk of getting sick or injured. Why pick and choose? Require that all employees submit to genetic testing, weekly weigh-ins, agree to only participate in certain activities like yoga, and refrain from any sports (high impact or otherwise), and to only eat certain foods.

Come on - this is getting ridiculous. We're ALL going to die of something. There are plenty of normal/slender people out there dying every day - from things like hypertension, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, all kinds of things.

My mother works in the Pentagon - do you know how many people drop dead from heart attacks in that place each day? Servicemembers who ARE required to be fit and a certain weight in order to remain on active duty. There are people hitting the deck daily in front of her office.

No warning. Boom. Dead.

There's only one way out, folks. Quibbling over which of us is more likely to be in the front of the line is really silly. If a person is blond and blue eyed they're more likely to suffer macular degeneration. Negroes are more likely to suffer from certain illnesses. So are Native Americans. Certain ethnic groups are more likely to suffer diseases like Crohn's. While females are more likely to get breast cancer, men get it too.

We're all at a higher risk of something due to internal or external factors. My fathers side of the family has a history of Type II diabetes. No fat folks - all very active, healthy people. They're still diabetic. My mothers side has a history of hypertension and strokes. No fat folks there, either.

Every facet of our lives involves risk.

[thumbsontop]

I feel the need to pipe in on the health risks discussion. I would guess that if researchers looked into it they would find that thin people (just fast metabolism, not fit and trim) have plenty of health risks. I grew up eating whatever I wanted and was never told not to because it didn't make me fat. I have no idea what I'm putting myself at risk for because I HAVE to eat high fat foods in order to keep the weight on, or gain. And I can't survive on peanuts. If I try to be "healthy" I fade away. Can I eat a salad for lunch, or a low carb meal? No way! So I eat simple carbs and fats - and alot less veggies and fruits than I should. Not even the doctors can help...except to say "eat twice as many peanuts".

Funny, I find that with some overweight people I am a little envious because at least they can DO something about it.

What I do see as a difference between thin and overweight people, and I'm talking morbidly, not fluffy, is that when people see a truly morbidly obese person, with the health implications that go along with it, they think it's gross...and you don't find that feeling when people see an anorexic person. I'm talking easily winded, copiously sweating when everyone else is comfortable, gassy. At that point it is truly a medical problem, yet people are disgusted...and I believe that cascades down to the plus side because people can visualize what would eventually happen. Sure both extremes are bad, but people just seem more disturbed by big.

So I do agree that people are more actively (not just comments) discriminatory in general against overweight people. And that, I think, is what makes it worse. There's a much higher chance that I will get a job - regardless of how strong you are compared to me. It would be easier for me to make friends. I accept that, and think it's wrong. I don't think it gives an overweight person free rein to comment on anyone else's weight, but I do see it as a bigger problem (no pun intended :D ).

And I have to say, this conversation is so mature compared to those that are concerning how best to care for your horse. Ironic, isn't it? :)

[Gayla]

The sad thing is you really seem to think that's true.
The sad thing is that you obviously can't read. Did you even go and read the article? Or you are substituting your judgment for the doctor in the article that is one of the leading clinicians on diabetes? Clearly, I would never want anyone of your intellectual caliber feeling "sad" for me. Maybe you have never heard of the New York Times. My bad.

[class]

The sad thing is that you obviously can't read. Did you even go and read the article? Or you are substituting your judgment for the doctor in the article that is one of the leading clinicians on diabetes? Clearly, I would never want anyone of your intellectual caliber feeling "sad" for me. Maybe you have never heard of the New York Times. My bad.

you said there was no link between obesity and diabetes. the article didn't say that. did you read it?

[Erin]

Uh, this ain't horse-related, people. Add in the immature sniping at each other, and that's a sure recipe for getting a thread closed. :rolleyes: