PDA

View Full Version : About rollkur



Jessica33
Oct. 23, 2007, 04:11 AM
Hi,

This just to inform you about a ipetition against rollkur

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/fei/index.html


and here for the pictures http://collectif-petitionfei.blog4ever.com/blog/lirarticle-144941-489532.html

Best Wishes to all
:)

Jessica33
Oct. 23, 2007, 07:23 AM
up!

Sannois
Oct. 23, 2007, 07:53 AM
I don't believe those pictures of Power and Paint are considered Rollkur, just horrid Lunging practice.

Red Barn
Oct. 23, 2007, 07:55 AM
Thanks, Jessica.



Could you also post this on TheOther DressageBoard? (A more sophisticated audience, I think.)

PM me if you need the address - I couldn't figure out how to post it there myself.

Jessica33
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:06 AM
Thanks, Jessica.



Could you also post this on TheOther DressageBoard? (A more sophisticated audience, I think.)

PM me if you need the address - I couldn't figure out how to post it there myself.

I've PM you ;)

egontoast
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:12 AM
Could you also post this on TheOther DressageBoard? (A more sophisticated audience, I think.)

PM me if you need the address - I couldn't figure out how to post it there myself.

Not sophisticated enough to post a link?
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

PLEASE Post this there too:


"Online"

I work down at the trail barn
And I fantasy ride a Breyer Cross
I still don’t know my diagonals
but at least I can post

I'm a Breyer fan
Mild asthmatic
Never been to a show
But there's a whole nother me
That you need to see
Go check out me on COTH

'cause online I'm down on the A circuit
I'm 5’9 and I look damn good
I ride a Dutch Warmblood
I'm an A judge in dressage
And I love a self carried passage

It turns fans on that I'm mysterious
I tell 'em I don't like to show- it’s not classical
'cause even on a bad day I can get a perfect piaffe
I can even ride- two horses at one time

I'm so much cooler online
So much cooler online

I get home, I kiss my Arab Cross
And put her in her breyer paddock
I head down to my basement bedroom
And fire up the Mac

In real life the only time I
Ever even been to an A show
Was when I got a link to Anky’s test from an online friend
And Finally Saw Grand Prix

Online I live in Wellington
I ride with George Morris, I've been in PH
I'm single and I'm rich
And I’ve got an auto release that'll blow your mind

It turns fans on that I'm mysterious
I tell 'em I don't like to show- it’s so judgemental
'cause even on a bad day I can find a perfect eight
I can even ride- two horses at one time

I'm so much cooler online
Yeah I'm cooler online

When you got my kinda stats, it's hard to get over a crossrail
Let alone a real 3’6
But I can jump another 3’
And my equitation really improves every time I log on

Online I'm out in West Palm Beach
I'm 5’8 and I look damn good
Even on a fat day, I can wear a 24 in two way stretch
I can ride with two trainers at one time

I'm so much cooler online
Yeah I'm cooler online
I'm so much cooler online
Yeah I'm cooler online





credit to magnolia73

If they are 'sophisticated' they'll get it . If not, they may claim you are 14.:)

appychik
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:21 AM
Not sophisticated enough to post a link?
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

PLEASE Post this there too:

"Online"

I work down at the trail barn
And I fantasy ride a Breyer Cross
I still don’t know my diagonals
but at least I can post

I'm a Breyer fan
Mild asthmatic
Never been to a show
But there's a whole nother me
That you need to see
Go check out me on COTH

'cause online I'm down on the A circuit
I'm 5’9 and I look damn good
I ride a Dutch Warmblood
I'm an A judge in dressage
And I love a self carried passage

It turns fans on that I'm mysterious
I tell 'em I don't like to show- it’s not classical
'cause even on a bad day I can get a perfect piaffe
I can even ride- two horses at one time

I'm so much cooler online
So much cooler online

I get home, I kiss my Arab Cross
And put her in her breyer paddock
I head down to my basement bedroom
And fire up the Mac

In real life the only time I
Ever even been to an A show
Was when I got a link to Anky’s test from an online friend
And Finally Saw Grand Prix

Online I live in Wellington
I ride with George Morris, I've been in PH
I'm single and I'm rich
And I’ve got an auto release that'll blow your mind

It turns fans on that I'm mysterious
I tell 'em I don't like to show- it’s so judgemental
'cause even on a bad day I can find a perfect eight
I can even ride- two horses at one time

I'm so much cooler online
Yeah I'm cooler online

When you got my kinda stats, it's hard to get over a crossrail
Let alone a real 3’6
But I can jump another 3’
And my equitation really improves every time I log on

Online I'm out in West Palm Beach
I'm 5’8 and I look damn good
Even on a fat day, I can wear a 24 in two way stretch
I can ride with two trainers at one time

I'm so much cooler online
Yeah I'm cooler online
I'm so much cooler online
Yeah I'm cooler online

credit to magnolia73

If they are 'sophisticated' they'll get it . If not, they may claim you are 14.:)

I love it, egontoast (or I should say that to magnolia73...). Nice spin on Brad Paisley's original "Online". :winkgrin:

cuatx55
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:32 AM
For some dumb reason I liked the original version...but I like this one even better!!! Great job!

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 23, 2007, 09:08 AM
There seem to be a lot of new posters (or alters) on the board lately, and my "ignore list" is growing by leaps and bounds. For those new to dressage and the very old hyperflexion (rollkur) controversy, I am posting what I think is a rather well reasoned article on the topic. I hope that the less opinionated among you will be educated and somewhat enlightened.

http://www.myhorsefly.com/read/9/

I don't know who the author of this blog is, but that should not detract from the logic of his position.

magnolia73
Oct. 23, 2007, 09:34 AM
My knowledge of dressage is really limited, but I've been riding forever- and there is always something that in the hands of a pro can get that last .5% of performance out of a horse, and in the hands of an amateur, can ruin a horse. Whether it's a bit, a method of riding, or an artificial aid.

I don't care for the photos I see of rollkur- somehow, I don't think it has a place for my universe of riding, but then I'm not striving to do more than have a pleasant hack. But I can see it as a tool for particular horses who might respond to a very deep stretch.

People love to bust on the top riders, but seriously- they are better than us. No matter how much I don't care for any number of riders, they all have better horse sense, better riding ability and better skills than I do and have earned their position at the top of their repective sport.

LD1129
Oct. 23, 2007, 09:50 AM
:rolleyes: Ugg Im so sick of "Rollkur" discussions. Will it ever end?

caffeinated
Oct. 23, 2007, 09:55 AM
I wonder when people will realize the online petitions are completely useless wastes of time that just make you "feel" warm and fuzzy for putting your name on something even though they don't accomplish anything.

You'd think people would get that by now.

LD1129
Oct. 23, 2007, 10:14 AM
I wonder when people will realize the online petitions are completely useless wastes of time that just make you "feel" warm and fuzzy for putting your name on something even though they don't accomplish anything.

You'd think people would get that by now.

:yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

sm
Oct. 23, 2007, 10:46 AM
I think people DO GET it, which is why there wasn't more petitions by now.

Meanwhile, to the OP, try your announcement here. They can place it internationally, maybe get a write up in St Georg magazine, stuff like that:

Olympic winner Klaus Balkenhol, Kurd Albrecht von Ziegner, and Hans-Heinrich Isenbart demand a change
http://www.truemner.net/xenophon/frameset_e.htm

I think a petition coming from "the prudish americans" (SJs phrase) isn't going to have any impact on the FEI. You need the international impact behind it http://www.truemner.net/xenophon/frameset_e.htm, and St Georg magazine

sm
Oct. 23, 2007, 10:57 AM
also submit the petition here http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/german_stgeorge.html

he's already sent one letter off to St. George and had it published... and yes, it was on a different level then the "Online" poem. Although he may be inspired and write a poem in response, who knows.

Sung of course to the tune of "Dueling Banjos."

Coreene
Oct. 23, 2007, 10:57 AM
Get. A. Life.

Jessica33
Oct. 23, 2007, 11:05 AM
It's just amazing how quickly the webmaster removed my subject and my profil when talking about rollkur. Not here but it's appen very often
Now it's taboo :(

sm
Oct. 23, 2007, 11:13 AM
you know what Jessica, I'll take care of it with those links I posted. And I'll add http://www.hsus.org for goood measure, they have many legal petitions out there. And they have people who do pro bono work, maybe will put some hours into it (although rollkur isn't a big problem in the USA yet). I always wanted to know if the FEI doesn't enforce their own rulebook, and if you participate in their dressage tests, what the legal action might be.

Thanks for posting here, and have a nice day. I'll take care of it.

Jessica33
Oct. 23, 2007, 11:19 AM
SM have a nice too :)

egontoast
Oct. 23, 2007, 11:22 AM
although rollkur isn't a big problem in the USA yet).



How do you know? Have you visited everyone and watched them train?

Have a nice day!

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 23, 2007, 11:30 AM
How do you know? Have you visited everyone and watched them train?
Have a nice day!

Well, we aren't winning so....that must be the reason!:winkgrin:
:lol:

bird4416
Oct. 23, 2007, 11:38 AM
Hasn't this been discussed forwards, backwards, sideways, upside down, through the fifth dimension, yada, yada, yada, ad infinitum. I'm already growing nauseous. Must tear myself away before I barf.

fiona
Oct. 23, 2007, 01:44 PM
Well, we aren't winning so....that must be the reason

Yeah, you might want to tell that to your team.
General perception in Europe is that they are doing good. Can't think why.

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 23, 2007, 02:06 PM
Yeah, you might want to tell that to your team.
General perception in Europe is that they are doing good. Can't think why.

Doing better-agreed.

But jeez, how many smileys and winkies do you need before you recognize something said ironically in jest? :no:

Jessica33
Oct. 24, 2007, 07:03 AM
Hello,
We do not wish a polemic, not argument either.
The horses cannot speak and give its opinion do it for them in the calm
Without running the risk to be to remove and black listed from forums as that frequently arrives when the subject is rollkur :cry:

All has been say about hyperflexion since months all around the world ... Now it is time to act :)
Thank you for this noble animal.

PS 1: It is asked for a gift after having signed the petition. This has nothing to do with the petition. Just close the window after your sign

PS 2 : I’m sorry for my not elaborate English :confused:

Spiritpaws
Oct. 24, 2007, 07:40 AM
With all the problems horses face, rollkur wouldn't be in the top twenty.

Shall we have a petition against inexperienced and beginner riders because they cause discomfort to horses?

Shall we have a petition against overweight riders ?

Shall we have a petition against poorly fitting saddles, ignorant (although well meaning) care takers, and bad shoeing?

Frankly I'd rather see action taken against the genetically engineered feed our horses get. And a ban on herbacides would be nice :-)

ToN Farm
Oct. 24, 2007, 07:54 AM
With all the problems horses face, rollkur wouldn't be in the top twenty. Very true. There are so many more worthwhile causes out there.

AnotherRound
Oct. 24, 2007, 08:14 AM
The below are false analogies (is that the correct term?): Comparing trainers using rolkeur to beginners, overweight and poorly fitted saddles and and bad shoeing
is disingenuous and misleading, and poorly thought out. Now, if you USED those discomforts as training techniques, then you'd have something to compare rolkeur to. Oh. Big Lick does that, with the shoes. There is a comparison, and yes, lets do continue the petitions against what is a training techniquecomparable to weighted shoes in Big Lick horses: Rolkeur.


With all the problems horses face, rollkur wouldn't be in the top twenty.

Shall we have a petition against inexperienced and beginner riders because they cause discomfort to horses?

Shall we have a petition against overweight riders ?

Shall we have a petition against poorly fitting saddles, ignorant (although well meaning) care takers, and bad shoeing?

Frankly I'd rather see action taken against the genetically engineered feed our horses get. And a ban on herbacides would be nice :-)

Jessica33
Oct. 24, 2007, 08:17 AM
With all the problems horses face, rollkur wouldn't be in the top twenty.

Shall we have a petition against inexperienced and beginner riders because they cause discomfort to horses?

Shall we have a petition against overweight riders ?

Shall we have a petition against poorly fitting saddles, ignorant (although well meaning) care takers, and bad shoeing?

Frankly I'd rather see action taken against the genetically engineered feed our horses get. And a ban on herbacides would be nice :-)
Yes you're right at 200% but Roma wasn't built in one day..don't give up.
I help myself my friend to deal with refuge for maltreated horses and take care of them everyday (we have 22 horses and little place to do so)
there is so many help to give for animals
This petition hereafter is also so sad .. isn't ?
http://i17.dnspro.org/u/f17/11/57/88/05/costa210.jpg

http://i17.dnspro.org/u/f17/11/57/88/05/costa10.jpg

http://www.petitiononline.com/13031953/petition.html

Have a nice day

Jessica33
Oct. 24, 2007, 08:26 AM
I've forgotten to inform that the petition can be printed hand signed and sent directly to the FEI mail adress hereafter :

Federation Equestre Internationale
Avenue Mon-Repos 24
CH-1005 LAUSANNE

Bluey
Oct. 24, 2007, 08:29 AM
Remember COTH is based in the USA, where self determination and the right to do what we want without interference is supposedly to be the basis of our individual rights.

Unless you can PROVE direct harm, people here give lip service to "to each their own".
Unless, of course, you don't agree with them what should be done or how.:lol:

I think that using rollkur is uneccesary and counterproductive to the goals we look for in a riding horse and especially in dressage, wins notwithstanding, but if someone wants to train a horse with their tail tied to their hocks so it doesn't swish around or in rollkur, who am I to tell them different?

If they are truly abusing and starving a horse, that would be different.:eek:

People in western disciplines tie a horse's head back to the saddle for hours, getting colts so body and especially neck sore that is pitiful.
Since so many do that, in the name of flexion, it is not even noticed by most.

I don't see how we can keep people from doing stupid things to themselves, their families and animals.
It seem to be part of who we humans are and we can micro manage common sense only so far.

Good try here, but remember, try not to trample too much on the rights of others by banning anything we don't like on shaky grounds.
We may be in someone else's sights to be next in line, to ban something we consider perfectly fine.:(

HXF
Oct. 24, 2007, 08:35 AM
Nice post:yes:

ToN Farm
Oct. 24, 2007, 08:51 AM
The below are false analogies (is that the correct term?): Comparing trainers using rolkeur to beginners, overweight and poorly fitted saddles and and bad shoeing
is disingenuous and misleading, and poorly thought out.
Pfffft! Why does it have to be an 'analogy'. Making horses uncomfortable (or inflicting pain) is the issue. Why does it have to be a training method? What about racing some poor 2 year old in circles in a round pen until it tires? Is that a good analogy?

The thing is that there is probably a very small percentage of horses that are trained in RK. Imo, it's not a big enough issue to warrant a 'petition'. At the very least, those signing the petition should be members of USEF/USDF, which I believe many (maybe most) are not.

Jessica33
Oct. 24, 2007, 09:23 AM
Remember COTH is based in the USA, where self determination and the right to do what we want without interference is supposedly to be the basis of our individual rights.

Unless you can PROVE direct harm, people here give lip service to "to each their own".
Unless, of course, you don't agree with them what should be done or how.:lol:

I think that using rollkur is uneccesary and counterproductive to the goals we look for in a riding horse and especially in dressage, wins notwithstanding, but if someone wants to train a horse with their tail tied to their hocks so it doesn't swish around or in rollkur, who am I to tell them different?

If they are truly abusing and starving a horse, that would be different.:eek:

People in western disciplines tie a horse's head back to the saddle for hours, getting colts so body and especially neck sore that is pitiful.
Since so many do that, in the name of flexion, it is not even noticed by most.

I don't see how we can keep people from doing stupid things to themselves, their families and animals.
It seem to be part of who we humans are and we can micro manage common sense only so far.

Good try here, but remember, try not to trample too much on the rights of others by banning anything we don't like on shaky grounds.
We may be in someone else's sights to be next in line, to ban something we consider perfectly fine.:(

Ok , be certain that I respect your opinion

sm
Oct. 24, 2007, 10:46 AM
although rollkur isn't a big problem in the USA yet).

How do you know? Have you visited everyone and watched them train? Have a nice day!

The difference is warm ups in the USA are open to the public, not behind closed doors.

The other part of the petition I'm interested in is the FEI not following their own rulebook. If you pay their dues and support the FEI, aren't you entitled to them upholding the rulebook? Why promise something and not deliver?


Excerpt from the petition:

* * *
And, to remain faithful to the " object of dressage events " enacted as high point of the rules in article 419:
"The FEI has the goal... to preserve the Equestrian Art from the abuses to which it can be exposed and to preserve it in the purity of its principles, so that it could be handed on intact to generations of riders to come".
* * *

sm
Oct. 24, 2007, 11:01 AM
Unless you can PROVE direct harm, people here give lip service to "to each their own". Unless, of course, you don't agree with them what should be done or how.:lol:

Interesting you should bring that up: I've been aware there's an article written in german that has yet to be translated to english. Well, as of yesterday now it will be translated: canadians, irish, the brits, new zealanders, and of course the usa -- can determine for themselves the value of the article in regards to PROVE DIRECT HARM.



Good try here, but remember, try not to trample too much on the rights of others by banning anything we don't like on shaky grounds.

Just looking for the FEI to follow their own rulebook, no new rules needed regarding trampling rights.

ideayoda
Oct. 24, 2007, 11:21 AM
No, they do not have to prove direct harm (although there are plenty of vets who will come to that conference if they are not turned away as with the last one).

The fact is the rules are for TRAINING, and the judges are supposed to uphold the RULES. Thats the slippery slope that has been ignored since Niggli. Seems they/or many trainers do not know where the poll is either, nor what pure gaits are. Since they do not uphold them in the competition arena, its become a freeforall in the warmup. And those rules say it is the job of the fei to protect against methods de jour, hence the warm up arena.

What I find sad is that Coby is the fall guy, the final straw. But I guess someone/somethimg has to be. The fact that riders/trainers have so little idea (of tradition/of anatomy/of equitation/of timing) that these questionable methods have any trial in the first place.

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 12:14 PM
The difference is warm ups in the USA are open to the public, not behind closed doors

No, the difference is that Anky, for example, does not hide her training methods or make apologies for them. If they are wrong, they are out there in the open to be judged. I base this on her apparent openess but also on the statements of someone who actually trained there and watched her train for a year. I don't think anyone here has better information than that.

These generalizations about American holier than thou training are just speculation unless you have personally trained with your beloved American idols. You can't assume that American BNTs are so holy just because the papparazzi do not film their every move. Do you know what THEY do behind closed doors? no.

I have many american friends but I have to say there is a certain blind nationalism which clouds the opinion of many. Guantanamo Bay , anyone? Death penalty, anyone? Not very good comparisons, probably, but the point being that the oft held belief that Americans are somehow morally and ethically superior to others is just so misguided .

ideayoda
Oct. 24, 2007, 12:49 PM
Warmups in LV WERE behind closed doors.

fiona
Oct. 24, 2007, 01:27 PM
The difference is warm ups in the USA are open to the public, not behind closed doors.


Warm ups in Europe are open. I've been to trillions.


Thats the slippery slope that has been ignored since Niggli.
I saw him ride. and that's all i'm going to say about that.


the oft held belief that Americans are somehow morally and ethically superior to others is just so misguided .
Affirmative. I would add that i think it would come as a great shock to many Americans if they realised just how other peoples regard them and their country.


Seems they/or many trainers do not know where the poll is either, nor what pure gaits are.
That is just bunkum. The SRS have the same problems as anyone else with these issues and they are your great poster boys of classicism!

[quote][What I find sad is that Coby is the fall guy,/QUOTE]
No, what is really sad is some child is the fall guy.

ideayoda
Oct. 24, 2007, 01:51 PM
There is a big difference between a few moments of finding balance and the poll being lost and INTENTIONALLY riding the horse out of balance for extended periods of time.

ANd it is NOT (mainly) americans who find the de jour training methods which are antithetical to the rules to be problematic. There are so many judges who have just quit judging rather than join up with what is accepted today, as well as people like GT who resigned from the Trainers group over the same things. How many are to be ignored? Or is it simply a search for those able to pay the most $$ to win?

MEP
Oct. 24, 2007, 03:21 PM
Warmups in LV WERE behind closed doors.

Sorry, can't help myself ... the first warm-up session was in the main arena - they sold tickets, anyone could watch. The warm-ups during the competition were in tents in the back, by the stabling area which was by necessity closed to the public. Hence warm-ups were closed. The facility is not set up for horse-shows per se. Don't see any great conspiracy to support hyperflexion here. (Also, if I recall correctly, there were tapes posted of the warm-ups somewhere at the time, so again, I don't see any great conspiracy going on.)

Quote <No, the difference is that Anky, for example, does not hide her training methods or make apologies for them. If they are wrong, they are out there in the open to be judged.>

Yup. Absolutely.
--------
Anky is a fabulous rider, RK or no RK. As is Isabell, and really all those other riders who work their butts off to get to that level. And, yes, some of them I'd give style points to over others, and some have horses I prefer over others. But I have to admire them for getting where they've gotten.

I personally don't support RK, but I am not now nor will I ever ride and train at anything but the most basic levels, so it is not an issue I have to confront directly.

As far as I know, the research to demonstrate harm (or lack thereof) has not yet been completed. So until there is some definitive proof that RK is harming the horses, peoples' PERCEPTIONS that is harmful won't sway me to condemn the practice. As others have pointed out repeatedly, there are far worse and more obvious examples of abuse and neglect in the news everyday.

Not that it matters, but this is the first time I've participated in one of these RK free-for-alls, and I expect it will be the last. When hotpoint issues such as this are debated, and when the points of view being debated are based on extreme points of view and subjective perceptions, consensus is unlikely to be reached. Meaning that there will be a perpetual war of words. Sometimes it provides food for thought, but most of the time it's just hot air ranging from the amusing to the absurd.

ideayoda
Oct. 24, 2007, 03:28 PM
The arena warm ups were not the warmups for showing, they were just 15-20 minutes of acclimization to the arena which got $$ from the viewers), they were already in the (outside warmups) for hours (n some cases). The warmups were initially closed (ie at Aachen) after the outcry (by the press/etc) in 84. Let's be honest about what is hidden. Go to the warmups anywhere and ask, IS this by the guidelines? And if not, what is being gained and what is being lost. And why?

sm
Oct. 24, 2007, 07:16 PM
No, the difference is that Anky, for example, does not hide her training methods or make apologies for them. If they are wrong, they are out there in the open to be judged. I base this on her apparent openess but also on the statements of someone who actually trained there and watched her train for a year. I don't think anyone here has better information than that.

The petition is not about Anky. If Anky never showed a single class in her life, or never sat on a horse, the rollkur problems would still be there. Time to separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were.


These generalizations about American holier than thou training are just speculation unless you have personally trained with your beloved American idols. You can't assume that American BNTs are so holy just because the papparazzi do not film their every move. Do you know what THEY do behind closed doors? no.

People are people, and FEI rules are built to be APPLIED the same all over.

Here is an excerpt from the petition, signer 340, "I am a member of many equestrian organizations such as USEF, USDF and CDS (CA Dressage Society). I also compete in local dressage shows. I have seen many horses being warmed up in Rollkur at these events. If the FEI doesn't step up and end these abuses, I will discontinue my memberships and participation in competitions as will many others...."


But the point being that the oft held belief that Americans are somehow morally and ethically superior to others is just so misguided .

Agreed, that opinion would be misguided. I don't know how anyone got to that superior-american conclusion from this BB. No nationality is morally and ethically superior to others...

sm
Oct. 24, 2007, 07:23 PM
The warmups were initially closed (ie at Aachen) after the outcry (by the press/etc) in 84. Let's be honest about what is hidden. Go to the warmups anywhere and ask, IS this by the guidelines? And if not, what is being gained and what is being lost. And why?

Yes. And those superficial studies and responses, "the FEI is looking into it," has really gone on too long.

siegi b.
Oct. 24, 2007, 07:44 PM
Yes, sm, and all you other anti RK folks that are so verbose on these bbs..... so you will petition the FEI to effect change, I can assume? Or are you just trying to sharpen your arguing skills on these boards?

Why is it that all these pompous statements as to the hideousness of rk and its practitioners are only seen on bbs and in certain equestrian rags? Why aren't you guys out there with your banners protesting rk at the various international competitions? I've been to some of those competitions and I haven't seen anybody... Why is that? You certainly seem very convincing when you're blogging in anonymity.

So unless I see you guys actually doing something about those strong opinions that you like to regurgitate forever and ever, I will have to assume that it's only an argument for argument's sake.....

sm
Oct. 24, 2007, 07:50 PM
Siegi Belz, so you didn't read the thread. It figures! And your demonstration solution at shows is funny... Thanks for the laugh!

Sabine
Oct. 25, 2007, 12:39 AM
Yes, sm, and all you other anti RK folks that are so verbose on these bbs..... so you will petition the FEI to effect change, I can assume? Or are you just trying to sharpen your arguing skills on these boards?

Why is it that all these pompous statements as to the hideousness of rk and its practitioners are only seen on bbs and in certain equestrian rags? Why aren't you guys out there with your banners protesting rk at the various international competitions? I've been to some of those competitions and I haven't seen anybody... Why is that? You certainly seem very convincing when you're blogging in anonymity.

So unless I see you guys actually doing something about those strong opinions that you like to regurgitate forever and ever, I will have to assume that it's only an argument for argument's sake.....

good one Siegi...it's true- RK seems to be the hot topic for non- or barely riding ammies with a real vengance against tall skinny good-looking and good-riding dressage riders...forget about the potential problems to the horse- this is way too technical and involved- no it's just plain cool to be against it...well- then do something about it- something better and more striking than just the annoying chiming in here...SM- you are a marketing specialist...get on the stick and show your skills...think up something!! shouldn't be hard for you!!!

And- don't start by calling me a RK fan!!! be smarter this time around...LOL!

Jessica33
Oct. 25, 2007, 04:43 AM
SM i love to read you :yes:

For any question everyone can follow the petition and/or send an email to the person who took this excellent initiative There're friendly
I know this information will be in a horse magazine for support ... i don't know if i can give its name in the forum

Finally I would like to say to people who think that morality and ethics do not exceed their border it would be necessary they remove their blinkers that can help to look beyond their nose

Yes people are people
Kind regards :)

Jessica33
Oct. 25, 2007, 04:49 AM
I will not add anymore here
I guess that my bad English can irritate as bad French could do it :winkgrin:
Thanks for expressions of sympathy i read here

Good continuation :)

Bluey
Oct. 25, 2007, 07:32 AM
SM i love to read you :yes:

For any question everyone can follow the petition and/or send an email to the person who took this excellent initiative There're friendly
I know this information will be in a horse magazine for support ... i don't know if i can give its name in the forum

Finally I would like to say to people who think that morality and ethics do not exceed their border it would be necessary they remove their blinkers that can help to look beyond their nose

Yes people are people
Kind regards :)

You know, coming across as accusing, when people don't respond as you want them to, is exactly what I meant.
Don't blame that on your English.;)

You want to accuse others of being provincial and so wearing blinders?
Common sense should tell you that, no matter how high a horse you think you are riding, you won't have everyone agreeing with you, for diverse reasons you may not be understanding from YOUR OWN provincial position.:no:

Yes, there are no borders to ethics, although calling this isssue "morality" may be a stretch in this situation.

If you read the responses carefully, you may see that you have not really been told outright that you are wrong, but that not all agree with the path you choose to right a still debatable wrong.

Yes, that is people for you.:p

Jessica33
Oct. 25, 2007, 08:25 AM
You know, coming across as accusing, when people don't respond as you want them to, is exactly what I meant.
Don't blame that on your English.;)

You want to accuse others of being provincial and so wearing blinders?
Common sense should tell you that, no matter how high a horse you think you are riding, you won't have everyone agreeing with you, for diverse reasons you may not be understanding from YOUR OWN provincial position.:no:

Yes, there are no borders to ethics, although calling this isssue "morality" may be a stretch in this situation.

If you read the responses carefully, you may see that you have not really been told outright that you are wrong, but that not all agree with the path you choose to right a still debatable wrong.

Yes, that is people for you.:p

What you mean is correct
Btu please Bluey I don't want to accuse anyone
I 'm just here to inform about a petition concerning horse training method
I kwon some people approve this method and it is their own right

In fact it is very difficult to discuss in a forum when you have the same language but different thinking .. the worse is when you haven’t the same language (I mean maternal language).

That is why I propose to myself to stop the discussion in order not to seem unpleasant with all of you … so what I do not wish

have a nice day
Jessy :)

Bluey
Oct. 25, 2007, 08:34 AM
What you mean is correct
Btu please Bluey I don't want to accuse anyone
I 'm just here to inform about a petition concerning horse training method
I kwon some people approve this method and it is their own right

In fact it is very difficult to discuss in a forum when you have the same language but different thinking .. the worse is when you haven’t the same language (I mean maternal language).

That is why I propose to myself to stop the discussion in order not to seem unpleasant with all of you … so what I do not wish

have a nice day
Jessy :)

I think that is great that you want Rollkur brought to light and discussed.:cool:

What may not be going over so well is if we want to impose on others what we want to do about it, without finishing the discussion first with more to go by that "WE know is wrong", when others evidently see merit in it.:confused:

Lets keep working on accountability from the rule makers, but not demand that they do what WE want and MAKE others do so, just because WE think is best.

There may be an important difference there on how much support your idea is getting.:yes:

grayarabpony
Oct. 25, 2007, 08:40 AM
good one Siegi...it's true- RK seems to be the hot topic for non- or barely riding ammies with a real vengance against tall skinny good-looking and good-riding dressage riders...forget about the potential problems to the horse- this is way too technical and involved- no it's just plain cool to be against it...well- then do something about it- something better and more striking than just the annoying chiming in here...SM- you are a marketing specialist...get on the stick and show your skills...think up something!! shouldn't be hard for you!!!

And- don't start by calling me a RK fan!!! be smarter this time around...LOL!


What a bitchy post. Not only bitchy but highly inaccurate.

grayarabpony
Oct. 25, 2007, 08:50 AM
There seem to be a lot of new posters (or alters) on the board lately, and my "ignore list" is growing by leaps and bounds. For those new to dressage and the very old hyperflexion (rollkur) controversy, I am posting what I think is a rather well reasoned article on the topic. I hope that the less opinionated among you will be educated and somewhat enlightened.

http://www.myhorsefly.com/read/9/

I don't know who the author of this blog is, but that should not detract from the logic of his position.


Actually I found this post to be pretty funny. "I don't know who the author of this blog is, but you should read this and believe what he says."

PS No one cares who is on your ignore list.

sm
Oct. 25, 2007, 10:04 AM
Lets keep working on accountability from the rule makers, but not demand that they do what WE want and MAKE others do so, just because WE think is best.

Agreed 100%. Concise, and to the point.

sm
Oct. 25, 2007, 10:10 AM
I know this information will be in a horse magazine for support ... i don't know if i can give its name in the forum

Good, because it'll take much more than one petition. One petition only is a recipe for failure. Yes you're right, don't mention the magazine til it happens...

siegi b.
Oct. 25, 2007, 10:23 AM
Here's something for all you holier-than-thou folks that think we need to attack foreign rider for not keeping their horse's poll in the right position....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y

I do think there are lots of other things that should be discussed when it comes to horse abuse in the US - this is just a little example of what is being circulated in Europe about American cruelty to horses.

If you want to send petitions, how about starting right in your own backyard?

sm
Oct. 25, 2007, 11:02 AM
I didn't view the video, but ask yourself if it is "okay" in any american rulebook.

For dressage international tests/training/warmups, we have the FEI. For americans, we have HSUS:

http://www.hsus.org/in_the_courts/
" The Animal Protection Litigation section conducts precedent-setting legal campaigns on behalf of animals in state and federal courts around the country. With a staff of 10 full-time lawyers and more than 30 active cases, The HSUS has the largest Animal Protection Litigation program in the country....
Our team of in-house attorneys, pro bono counsel and dedicated law students is working every day to ensure that all animals get the legal protection they deserve."

class
Oct. 25, 2007, 11:47 AM
Here's something for all you holier-than-thou folks that think we need to attack foreign rider for not keeping their horse's poll in the right position....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9...elated&search=


The url contained a malformed video id.

Red Barn
Oct. 25, 2007, 12:39 PM
I’ve heard arguments like Bluey’s before, of course, but I can’t make any sense of them at all.

We’re talking about a sport that regulates legal bits down to the finest detail, and spurs to the last rowel. Who’s having fits of libertarian pique about that?

Games have rules, and the rules apply to all. If somebody cares to play a particular game, it’s hardly an affront to their God-given rights to expect them to honor the existing rules.

If the stated purpose of the FEI is the evaluation of correct performance as the result of correct training, then the enforcement of established guidelines concerning training methods is its JOB. Nobody’s asking for a new rule to reflect personal preference of any kind.

How odd that the idea of playing by the rules should produce such a torrent of ugliness and bile!

Lexi
Oct. 25, 2007, 01:51 PM
If you pay their dues and support the FEI, aren't you entitled to them upholding the rulebook? Why promise something and not deliver?please do share with and itemize for us the "dues" and "support" you allegedly give to the FEI.

Bluey
Oct. 25, 2007, 01:51 PM
---"I’ve heard arguments like Bluey’s before, of course, but I can’t make any sense of them at all."---

Red Barn, I will, as the OP did, say that I guess it is my bad English that made me write in a way that is hard to understand.;)



I will not add anymore here
I guess that my bad English can irritate as bad French could do it :winkgrin:
Thanks for expressions of sympathy i read here

Good continuation :)

We are not talking about rules of what bit you can show with while showing, but how it is proper to train in general, including in your own premises.

Seems that to demand rollkur be grounds for banning may be going a little too far in what we want to demand, oversee and prosecute.

I still think that those that use rollkur and are winning are winning despite of using rollkur, not because of it, because it is so counterproductive to collection and self carriage.
As someone said, a horse working in rollkur is like asking a gymnast to do flips with a hand tied behind their back.
Why make a horse's work harder?:confused:

I do wonder why, when showing at the higher levels, those times a horse gets behind the bit are not penalized severely.
It used to be so, but obviously not today any more.

class
Oct. 25, 2007, 02:12 PM
please do share with and itemize for us the "dues" and "support" you allegedly give to the FEI.

feeling ugly today lexi? your snide question does not answer sm's question. it's my question too, think hard and then give us a crack at a real answer:

If you pay their dues and support the FEI, aren't you entitled to them upholding the rulebook?

Red Barn
Oct. 25, 2007, 02:32 PM
[QUOTE=Bluey;2759962

We are not talking about rules of what bit you can show with while showing, but how it is proper to train in general, including in your own premises.

[/QUOTE]


No. It would ban rollkur in the warm-up and on show grounds.

They could hardly police every barn on earth, so I think you can rest assured that you won't be finding hidden cameras in your Texas hayloft.

Bluey
Oct. 25, 2007, 03:09 PM
No. It would ban rollkur in the warm-up and on show grounds.

They could hardly police every barn on earth, so I think you can rest assured that you won't be finding hidden cameras in your Texas hayloft.

Well, they did ban poling ANY PLACE, so it is not such a farfetched idea, really.:yes:

There are instances where it would be difficult to define exactly when someone is doing rollkur or when the horse was behind the bit for a moment, so that would make for hard to police gray lines.

class
Oct. 25, 2007, 04:03 PM
There are instances where it would be difficult to define exactly when someone is doing rollkur or when the horse was behind the bit for a moment, so that would make for hard to police gray lines.

are you serious? you must be joking.

is it difficult for you to define exactly what the difference is between these two photos?

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/998/65022757.JPG

and

http://www.eurodressage.com/images/news_dr_rollkur.jpg

Bluey
Oct. 25, 2007, 04:26 PM
are you serious? you must be joking.

is it difficult for you to define exactly what the difference is between these two photos?

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/998/65022757.JPG

and

http://www.eurodressage.com/images/news_dr_rollkur.jpg

No, I am not joking.
Yes, I can tell the difference in the pictures.

Can you say it was a moment of disobedience your horse was fighting the rider, before you put it back in front of your leg, or purposely ridden continuously like that, which is what Rollkur is supposed to mean?

Remember the excuses with the danish pony pictures?

If it is banned, we will need very clear definitions to support the rules to enforce it and that may not be so easy.

With the tail controversy in AQHA shows, they had to work hard to finally let a show veterinarian determine if indeed there was faul play in the way a horse's tail moved, or didn't.
At shows, you want to be sure, before you fine or ban someone for any infringement of rules, so the rules need to be clear and enforceable.

Will that be easy with Rollkur, even if all agree to ban it, which right now many don't seem to want to anyway?:confused:

sm
Oct. 25, 2007, 05:34 PM
If it is banned, we will need very clear definitions to support the rules to enforce it and that may not be so easy.


Okay, I'll bite:

- I don't think it will be banned, the petition only asks to return to AND RESPECT the rulebook. If we simply return to the rulebook that will help immensely.

- Here is how USDF handles it in their USDF Statement on Animal Welfare http://www.usdf.org/pdf/CompetitionManagement/AnimalWelfare.pdf If the link doesn't work I suppose I can get the PDF into a word format and cut and paste it here.

Para 3 and 6 leave ample room for establishing the difference --- without banning any particular training practice.

SGray
Oct. 25, 2007, 05:46 PM
The United States Dressage Federation, Inc. (USDF), a federation of over 125 independent organizations throughout the United States
with a membership in excess of 33,000 members, supports the concept of ethical treatment of animals.
Dressage is a classical method of training horses, based upon the horse’s natural responses, as carried out in a gradual, planned program
during which the horse’s athletic abilities are improved in a systematic manner. As a result, the horse becomes capable, comfortable,
and responsive in partnership with the rider without the use of force. Dressage competition at various levels of achievement is the
ultimate test of the training program to determine whether the desired harmony between horse and rider has been achieved.
The rules pertaining to dressage competition prohibit the use of artificial appliances, training aids, and drugs, which would force the
horse to submit. Instead, the emphasis is upon training and a cooperative partnership with the rider. Major competitions are carefully
monitored to assure that there is no unnecessary force or harshness displayed.
Unlike other horse sports in which horses enter training at a relatively immature state, dressage training is usually not seriously begun
until the horse is three or four. The top levels of achievement require five or more years of progressive training and it is not unusual to
see horses in international competition in their late teens. This, in itself, places a premium on good care and soundness throughout the
horse’s life.
While supporting the concept of animal welfare in its broadest form, the United States Dressage Federation, Inc., also recognizes that
it is unrealistic to ascribe human emotions and responses to the horse which in its wild state is a creature of flight, living a hard and
precarious existence. Under domestication, the horse is assured of ample food, water, and shelter, as well as protection against infectious
diseases and damaging parasites, thus leading a longer and healthier life with a high rate of survival.
As an educational organization, USDF has numerous programs, which teach people how to pursue the accepted, humane training methods.
A program of certifying instructors also emphasizes protecting the horse’s welfare in pursuit of dressage training.

rcloisonne
Oct. 25, 2007, 05:59 PM
good one Siegi...it's true- RK seems to be the hot topic for non- or barely riding ammies with a real vengance against tall skinny good-looking and good-riding dressage riders...
Is this guy qualified enough for ya? He's not American nor an "ammy". This is a whole book, BTW.


Tug of War: Classical Versus “Modern” Dressage
by Dr. Gerd Heuschmann (German veterinarian)

In a detailed yet comprehensible fashion, Dr. Heuschmann describes parts of the horse’s body that need to be correctly developed by the dressage rider. He then examines how they function both individually and within an anatomical system, and how various schooling techniques affect these parts for the good, or for the bad. Using vivid color illustrations of the horse’s skeletal system, ligaments, and musculature, in addition to comparative photos depicting “correct” versus “incorrect” movement—and most importantly, photos of damaging schooling methods—Dr. Heuschmann convincingly argues that the horse’’s body tells us whether our riding is truly gymnasticizing and “building the horse up, ” or simply wearing it down and tearing it apart.

Dr. Gerd Heuschmann trained as a Bereiter (master rider) in Germany before qualifying for veterinary study at Munich University. There he specialized in equine orthopedics for two years before accepting a post as the head of the breeding department at the German FN, which he eventually left to start his own practice in Warendorf. He has been an active member of the “hyperflexion” (previously referred to as Rollkur) debate, weighing in at the 2005 USDF National Symposium and the 2006 FEI Veterinary and Dressage Committees’ Workshop.

For a few of the photos in the book, look here (no, they're not of Anky):

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2007/10/rollkur-book-slams-overflexion.html

MySparrow
Oct. 26, 2007, 09:44 AM
to the book!


Is this guy qualified enough for ya? He's not American nor an "ammy". This is a whole book, BTW.



For a few of the photos in the book, look here (no, they're not of Anky):

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2007/10/rollkur-book-slams-overflexion.html

Lexi
Oct. 28, 2007, 05:59 PM
feeling ugly today lexi? your snide question does not answer sm's question. it's my question too, think hard and then give us a crack at a real answer:

If you pay their dues and support the FEI, aren't you entitled to them upholding the rulebook?
first of all, i don't recall the CotH obliging posters to answer anyone's questions as a condition of participation in this forum
nor is it your place to dictate to others what questions they pose or answer.

secondly, if someone asks a question that i can see is almost certainly based on a false premise, the question itself is moot unless they first demonstrate the validity of the premise(this was covered in my junior high logic class)

lastly,since if the premise of the question were true, the answer to the question goes without saying, is self-evident/ already the status quo in any sports fed/etc., it seemed pretty obvious to me that it was a rhetorical question , no hard thinking required. but your mileage may vary :lol:

so…w/ niceties out of the way…the issue is the premise.sm's question(combined with the content of her other posts) suggests to me that she herself claims entitlement on the basis of paying "dues" to and otherwise "supporting" (undefined) the FEI . that would make her a stakeholder aka someone with a say in it .

that doesn't add up w/ the level of knowledge displayed by her posts which suggest to me that she is not, in fact, a stakeholder in international sport ,only in national sport

so I call bullshit …or, at least, ignorance of the system she is railing against

so, sm, do you compete internationally ? or are you a CDI organizer. those are the only individuals who can be said to "pay dues" to the FEI.

national competitors (whether they compete in USEF tests or FEI ones) pay nothing to the FEI since the FEI has nothing whatsoever to do with them and doesn't even know they exist nor have any statutorial right to collect any money from them. thus they have no entitlement to anything from FEI only from their own N.G.B ( and/or other natl orgs) assuming of course they are members otherwise no one cares.

so with all this in mind, a petition signed by actual stakeholders is fine albeit not a substitute for following the existing rules and procedures. but a petition signed by nonstakeholders is not worth the paper it's printed on.

the thing to do imo is to lobby the fei's most influential persons, such as David O'Connor, who has the ear of the princess and is accountable to his own membership to represent their will . without her decree nothing will be done and without people like him influencing her, there won't likely be a decree.

Lexi
Oct. 28, 2007, 06:01 PM
- Here is how USDF handles it in their USDF Statement on Animal Welfareso, would you say that for example, Walter Zettl knows what is and is not an "accepted, humane training method" to which the USDF refers in this welfare statement?
And does USDF in turn actively support Mr. Zettl's well-publicized stance on training?

CatOnLap
Oct. 29, 2007, 11:14 AM
Dr. Gerd Heuschmann trained as a Bereiter (master rider) in Germany
"Bereiter=Master Rider" ROFLMAO
Holy cow, the Germans have done a good job of marketing.
Bereiter is the lowest level of professional qualification.
Reitmaster or Reitlehrer would be considered master riders. Bereiters are considered one step above grooms.