Can someone tell me about the Oldenburg NA?

[Procella]

Here is why I am curious.

I went to an Oldenburg NA, ISR inspection recently and could not help but notice that ALL the horses presented for inspection passed, even when the guy doing the inspection had negative things to say about the horse (sometimes very negative).

So, I was talking to someone this weekend and she told me something very interesting and I was wondering if it were true at all.

Apparently there did not used to be an Oldenburg NA, only the Verband. Then, the guy in the US who was running the Verband inspections was passing everything and the Verband got on him about passing everything/too many horses so he either quit or got fired and then established his own registry called the Oldenburg NA. Apparently this was the inspection I saw and I wonder if that was the same guy at the inspection. The way it was presented to me it sounded like it was more about collecting a fee for brand and even a type of "copywright infringement" on the Oldenburg name.

Is any of this true?

Thanks

[eqsiu]

Regardless of politics, most registries brand and record all foals born from approved parents, regardless of quality. It seems that you were watching the foals?

I have been to Old/NA inspections and they do not pass everything presented to them for approval. Many mares and stallions are not accepted. The Old/NA is a valid, reputable registry. They just aren't affiliated with a German counterpart.

If you want to know about the politics, do a search. It has been hashed out here before. :)

[Foxtrot's]

I have found the Oldenburg NA very easy to deal with - e-mails are answered promptly. There are several levels of mare books, so a lot of mares fit somewhere unless they are "dogs".

They have a huge list of approved stallions, inspections in a lot of places so some of us can actually get to one, and reputable breeders are affiliated with them, Hilltop Farm for one. The inspectors travel around so all the horses are assessed on a level playing field, and compared to the European standards. I'm happy with them.

There is the old merry-go-round of taking your mare to lots of inspections - too expensive and therein lies the rub.

[tri]

I don't know why in the world the guy running it wanted/needed/insisted upon calling his American registry "oldenburg" and it is true that he rushed out and trademarked the Oldenburg's brand. Then legally prevented the german oldenburg folks from using it like they have for hundreds of years.

It would have been much much better if he just built a top quality American warmblood & sporthorse registry - that is something we could all be proud of instead of making excuses and falling all over ourselves trying to justify what happened.

[talloaks]

Procella, to avoid being swamped with misinformation I suggest you go to this link to learn more about the ISR/OLDNA registry:

http://www.isroldenburg.org/index.php?pid=about%us_registry

Please note that Dr Christian Schacht has been the Breeding Director since 2006.

[Procella]

Hi All,

Thanks so much for the replies - you are all very helpful. I went to the website and took a look and it looks good. I am also glad to hear that they don't always pass everything!!!

[flshgordon]

I would just like to add that you were obviously given some very poor information from someone. I am glad you took the time to go to the Old NA website and find out what the registry is all about.

My experience with them has been A+ so far. They have a lot of good programs for horses and good customer service to their members. I've definitely been to inspections where horses presented were turned down.

[STF]

Make sure and understand the levels of approval too. One can be put into a mare book, but depending on what mare book, it may limit what they can and cant do in breedstock.

[Hocus Focus]

I certainly have no complaint with the ISR Old. I can tell you of a personal incident which I had. I was travelling and photographing and had wanted to present my mare at the inspection but there was no time to organize it. The inspector happened to have a stay over after the inspection and I had said to someone that I really wanted to bring my mare so they asked him and he said he wouldn't mind dropping by the farm to do it considering I had been very much a part of the inspection all day. That was a rare and kind gesture and certainly not required. My little mare made main mare book and I was able to do it on the lawn.

A unique experience. An act of kindness I shall not forget anyday soon.

[YankeeLawyer]

I certainly have no complaint with the ISR Old. I can tell you of a personal incident which I had. I was travelling and photographing and had wanted to present my mare at the inspection but there was no time to organize it. The inspector happened to have a stay over after the inspection and I had said to someone that I really wanted to bring my mare so they asked him and he said he wouldn't mind dropping by the farm to do it considering I had been very much a part of the inspection all day. That was a rare and kind gesture and certainly not required. My little mare made main mare book and I was able to do it on the lawn.

A unique experience. An act of kindness I shall not forget anyday soon.


That is a really nice story. That is how registries should work.

[WBLover]

My understanding was that the registry many years ago DID have the support of the German Oldenburg verband, which is why they did use the O crown brand. I used to own an ISR/Oldenburg gelding that was born and bred here, branded with the O crown brand, and he had "pink" papers that came directly from Germany. But he definitely was registered through the ISR/Oldenburg Registry and not the GOV. In fact, I don't thing the GOV even existed then.

Then, yes, supposedly the Germans didn't like what the American branch were approving, fired the director and tryed to pull their brand, however that brand was already patented for use by the registry and they could not take it away. So they started their own branch, the GOV (Oldenburg Horse Breeder's Society). So I don't think the brand is being used illegally by the ISR/Oldenburg, as they originally had the support of the German branch.

[tri]

No one said they were using the brand illegally.

More sort of like this analogy: I have a car manufacturing company and I contract with Mercedes to build Mercedes cars in my plant in the U.S.. Then the Mercedes folks look over what I'm doing and don't like it - quality issues, whatever, and they sever the relationship with my plant and decide to build their own plant in the U.S. But, unknown to them, I've trademarked their Mercedes emblem. Then when the Mercedes folks build their own plant, I take them to court and say I own your symbol and you can't use it here in the U.S. and furthermore, I'm going to continue building cars MY way and I'm putting the Mercedes emblem on them. Then the flabbergasted Germans go to court not believing that something like that could happen and the U.S. court system upholds my trademark and allows me to build cars using the Mercedes emblem and prohibits them from using it. The rest of the world looks on in horror and sadly shakes their head.

[carosello]

In fact, I don't thing the GOV even existed then.


The Oldenburg Verband has been around since at least the early 1920's. Maybe not with an arm in the US but they certainly existed.

www.oldenburghorse.com (http://www.oldenburghorse.com)

The Oldenburg Verband (Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society) and the ISR.Old NA are not longer together although they were for a few years.
I do not believe the ISR Old NA exists anywhere else but North America but oddly with its owner living in Germany. I would guess you could consider it an American Registry except in name.

[tri]

"I would guess you could consider it an American Registry except in name"

Yes, it could have been an excellent, strong American warmblood registry but they had to go label it Oldenburg. So you can a Dutch mare, bred to a Holsteiner stallion taken and approved by the guy who owns the Oldna and "poof!" they are now "oldenburgs" for no other reason then he says so and he openly admits (it is on their website) that they have a different set of criteria then the German Oldenburgs. But, hey, this is America, why not?!

[WBLover]

carosello, I meant that the US branch of the GOV didn't exist then (I think), sorry, I shouldn't have called it the GOV, I meant the Oldenburg Horse Breeder's Society.

[buschkn]

So OldNA uses the O brand? And what do US GOV horses get branded with? It does seem very odd that they took the brand over.

[eqsiu]

So OldNA uses the O brand? And what do US GOV horses get branded with? It does seem very odd that they took the brand over.

They're not, I believe they microchip? I guess it's a lesson in capitalism.

[RTBSH]

I have had great experiences with the OLDNA the breeding director was the inspector at the one I presented at this year. He had a very nice comment that many of the horses over here were as good if not better than the ones in Germany. The registry is also very involved with the 100 day test here, which other registries participate in.

[carosello]

So OldNA uses the O brand? And what do US GOV horses get branded with? It does seem very odd that they took the brand over.


They are not allowed to use it in North American because it was trademarked to the ISR/Old na. We use microships but horses born in Germany are still branded.

[schwung]

Well, as the owner of a mare that got caught in the "middle of the mayhem", I can say it was a little bit frustrating. My mare (by breeding a Hanoverian/TB cross) has the GOV pink papers and the 'O' brand, and was issued a premium mare status in 1994. 10 years later, after a very successful showing career including a regional championship, she was retired due to injury and bred to a Hanoverian stallion who was only approved GOV. When I took her filly to the GOV inspection I was told I had to have the mare re-inspected, but they would not charge me the inspection fee. When I got there, not only were her scores night and day different from her previous scores, she was no longer eligible for a Premium mare (and even if she was, GOV requires a 7.5 for premium mare status, it was 7.0 with the combined GOV/OldNA), and effectively had her title taken from her, although she was at least still Main Mare Book. They had no record of her in their books, despite having pink papers in German, and seemed almost suspicious of their origin. They tried to charge me the inspection fee but I objected saying I was told over the phone I would not have to pay it. In any case, it didn't really matter, since I only brought her back to get the filly registered (who was a Premium foal). I tell my mare she is still Premium to me. :)

[DownYonder]

Schwung, it is indeed unfortunate that you got caught in the mayhem. One reason why your mare had to be reinspected is because ISR never turned over any records to Oldenburg when the two registries split. Since Oldenburg had no record of your mare being inspected, it had to re-inspect her in order to issue registration papers to her foal. And after 10 years, I can easily understand why she didn't score the same as in her earlier inspection. Not only was she probably showing some wear and tear from age and from her performance career, there were also different inspectors involved - German Oldenburg inspectors can be pretty tough. But congrats on your premium Oldenburg foal. That is something to really be proud of! :yes:

[DownYonder]

I certainly have no complaint with the ISR Old. I can tell you of a personal incident which I had. I was travelling and photographing and had wanted to present my mare at the inspection but there was no time to organize it. The inspector happened to have a stay over after the inspection and I had said to someone that I really wanted to bring my mare so they asked him and he said he wouldn't mind dropping by the farm to do it considering I had been very much a part of the inspection all day. That was a rare and kind gesture and certainly not required. My little mare made main mare book and I was able to do it on the lawn.

A unique experience. An act of kindness I shall not forget anyday soon.

That was very nice of them. I know that the Oldenburg (GOV) inspectors also very frequently make side trips to inspect mares and foals that couldn't make it to the official inspection site - sometimes driving for hours to go see ONE mare or foal.

[tri]

Aren't the "pink" papers issued from Germany? So why wouldn't the germans have a record?

[carosello]

Probably because those papers are issued as a foal and would not have had mares scores associated with them. Those scores would be held with the ISR/oldna.

[DownYonder]

Aren't the "pink" papers issued from Germany? So why wouldn't the germans have a record?

What Carosello said. It was a tough situation for many people. We have seen quite a few of those mares come back into the Oldenburg mare books over the years.

[Cartier]

Aren't the "pink" papers issued from Germany? So why wouldn't the germans have a record?

We are not supposed to talk about this here, but an accurate and very simple answer to this is in the 2000 judgment entered in favor of Old NA... you'd have to look at the Final Order. (you can email me and I'll explain). Btw, the GOV supported Dr. Ramsauer through two more registries after “the split” so they must have liked what he was doing for the first decade he inspected and branded Oldenburgs here in the USA.

[EquusMagnificus]

so how does a new breeder to the OLD circle decide which registry to go with?

I want as much prestige and value into my breeding program as possible, yet I want my foals to be branded.

I suppose all I could do is present my horses to both inspections and obtain dual registration, but I am not even sure that is possible and it gets expensive!

Is there any objective source of information that can tell, the "true" story of the split and what not?

On one hand, the GOV's reputation is immense and they are known for being though (critical) in their inspections which is great.

On the other hand, if the HAN people think the 100-day testing prepared with the ISR/OLD is good enough, well that says a lot too.

How do you decide?

I have access to both inspections; GOV is an 1h30 from here and ISR is 2 hours from here. Not a big difference in terms of logistics either. I know and respect both hosts as well. :confused:

[DownYonder]

Unfortunately, the Verband had turned a blind eye to N.A. for far too many years, trusting the ISR/ONA executive director and breeding director to look after its affairs here in N.A. Another part of the problem was that the Verband had a change in leadership in 1995, and the new president was focused on dealing with other issues in Germany, including the aftermath of the Grannus scandal. They had no idea there was a new scandal brewing in North America.

Look at it this way – the Verband wanted to run its own show here in N.A. because of various problems with ISR/ONA. Brysch pointed fingers at Ramsauer, Ramsauer pointed fingers at Brysch. The Verband had already had problems with Brysch during his brief employment at the Vechta auction house, so it chose to believe Ramsauer. Ramsauer unfortunately then caused some additional problems here, resulting in more threats of legal action by ISR over the use of the Oldenburg brand. Once the BOD got a handle on what was going on here, Ramsauer was dismissed, the two interim Oldenburg Verband organizations set up in N.A. following the split were disbanded, and the Verband moved forward by setting up The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society as a direct arm of the Verband and appointing Dr. Evelyn Vollstedt to oversee the Society.

It was a very difficult time for many people with several lawsuits and many threats of lawsuits, but it has been ten years since the Verband washed its hands of ISR/ONA, Brysch, and Ramsauer. The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society has been growing at a steady pace ever since, and despite the fact that it cannot use the Oldenburg brand, most members are very happy to have authentic Oldenburg papers for their foals, and to know that there is full reciprocity between North America and Germany for approved mares and stallions.

EquusMagnificus, as I just said - many people think it is far more important to have authentic Oldenburg papers issued from the Verband office in Germany, and to know that their horses were inspected by official inspectors appointed by the Verband breeding director, than to have a purloined brand on their foals. It is the papers that make a horse an Oldenburg, not the brand.

[EquusMagnificus]

Hmm... Thanks DY. It clears up things a bit...

So now... if the ISR/OLD no longer has the approval of the Verband... how come they can still call themselves OLD and use the brand? Because of the trademark issue?

The ISR/OLD adheres to the standard of the Verband for their inspection of their horses anyways... no?

[Zlotych]

most members are very happy to have authentic Oldenburg papers for their foals, and to know that there is full reciprocity between North America and Germany for approved mares and stallions

Are you sure about this? Unless there was a misunderstanding, a stallion owner I spoke to recently said that may not be the case.

[DownYonder]

The executive director of ISR trademarked the Oldenburg brand when things started to turn sour between ISR/ONA and the Verband. There were several lawsuits over the issue, but the U.S. courts sided with the U.S. corporation (ISR is incorporated in Illinois), so Oldenburg lost rights to its brand here in the U.S.

And no, ISR/ONA does not use the same standards as used by the Verband. It uses a different scoring system, it has different mare books, and different rules for mare book placement. It also scores foals, which is not done in Germany. The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society uses the EXACT same scoring criteria and methodology as is used in Germany, as well as the same rules for mare book eligibility, and it does not score foals.

[EquusMagnificus]

I took as she meant that most members of the GOV...

[DownYonder]

Are you sure about this? Unless there was a misunderstanding, a stallion owner I spoke to recently said that may not be the case.

That is what I was told numerous times by the Oldenburg office.

[Carol Ames]

:confused:the new president was focused on dealing with other issues in Germany, including the aftermath of the Grannus scandal. They had no idea there was a new scandal brewing in North America.

[EquusMagnificus]

In the light of this... can any GOV experts chime and help me evaluate the pedigree eligibility of my broodmare?

Of course any and all speculation on her eligibility would vary according to her inspection scores but just to get an idea if the best I have is a Pre-Mare book mare... :no:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/maritime8

[DownYonder]

They discovered that numerous foals that were supposed to be sired by Grannus were in fact sired by other stallions. It caused a huge uproar in Germany, with many threats there of legal action against the stallion owner in question and the Verband. It was the major force behind the drive for parentage verification via bloodtyping or DNA analysis before foal papers are issued.

[LockeMeadows]

As a breeder, I've found that buyers are much more receptive to foals with GOV papers than those with IRS/ OLD NA papers. They would rather have German papers than a stamp on the butt. Needless to say, we present our babies to the GOV and it has proved to be a profitable decision.

[Carol Ames]

I attended an inspection by a GOV inspector in which she stated very clearly that , a horse inspected and branded by one registry could not be approved by a 2nd one;:yes::no: We all know of horses approved by more than none registry; so what gives?:confused:

[DownYonder]

In the light of this... can any GOV experts chime and help me evaluate the pedigree eligibility of my broodmare?

Of course any and all speculation on her eligibility would vary according to her inspection scores but just to get an idea if the best I have is a Pre-Mare book mare... :no:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/maritime8

Main Mare Book mares must have at least 4 generations of approved stallions in their pedigrees. That means approved WB stallions (approved by a breeding association acknowledged by Oldenburg), or TB or Arabian stallions. They must also hold registration papers from a breeding association acknowledged by Oldenburg. I honestly don't know if Canadian Sport Horse Association qualifies. Your best bet is to contact Holly Simensen in the Oldenburg office in Florida. You can find contact info at www.oldenburghorse.com.

[DownYonder]

I attended an inspection by a GOV inspector in which she stated very clearly that , a horse inspected and branded by one registry could not be approved by a 2nd one;:yes::no: We all know of horses approved by more than none registry; so what gives?:confused:

Good point, I forgot to address that. Warmblood foals can only hold ONE set of registration papers, so you cannot reigster them with both registries. The Oldenburg office told me that the registry will nullify foal papers if it learns that an Oldenburg registered foal was also registered with another warmblood registry.

[Cartier]

From 1988 through 1997 all Oldenburgs bred in this country were inspected and approved because the GOV allowed it. The GOV operated in the USA as Oldenburg Registry North America. No one put a gun to the GOV’s head to come to this country and guide us to breed branded Oldenburgs. The GOV chose to do so. Stepping back a bit, can you image the leadership that allowed “the Split” to happen in our market place, creating a situation where American Oldenburg breeders fight back and forth with this, “My Oldenburg is better than yours” because the GOV’s decisions today are supposedly better than the were for a decade. Who’s to say in another few years the GOV won’t have another shift in leadership and then we’ll all be looking back at this time period and disavowing the horses being entered now. It is so destructive to American breeders to have such confusion in our market place. It serves those with imports, not American breeders. Think about it for a moment, which registry is always pushing the imports... does that serve Amercian breeders?

[Cartier]

Good point, I forgot to address that. Warmblood foals can only hold ONE set of registration papers, so you cannot reigster them with both registries. The Oldenburg office told me that the registry will nullify foal papers if it learns that an Oldenburg registered foal was also registered with another warmblood registry.
I think Pat Belskie can tell you that there are/ were exceptions to this.

[Tiki]

I have heard of people registering foals with the GOV, then taking them to another registry, who would innocently register them with their registry since the foals aren't branded. If that is found out, I believe both registries would disown the foal.

[EquusMagnificus]

Agreed Cartier, agreed.

Same as with CWHBA and CSHA in Canada. It is sad indeed and far from being productive.

[DownYonder]

Once again - the Verband TRUSTED Brysch and Ramsauer to "do the right thing" for the Verband here in N.A. Both men caused problems which still haunt Oldenburg breeders in N.A., and the Verband itself.

At any rate, since the Verband itself now runs The Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society, I doubt it will "disavow" the horses registered here under its auspices. But I do agree, it is confusing to have two major registries operating in N.A. with the same "name". I don't how or when it will be resolved. Oldenburg is too gun-shy to join forces with ISR again, and ISR won't give up the Oldenburg name and brand because that is its lifeline. It sucks in beginning breeders who think it is "the" Oldenburg registry in North America, and long-time ISR/ONA breeders also stay because it is financially expedient for them. No one wants to give up that Oldenburg name.

[DownYonder]

I think Pat Belskie can tell you that there are/ were exceptions to this.

That wasn't an exception, Pat took her foals to ISR/ONA after they were already inspected by Oldenburg. She says she didn't know it wasn't allowed, but my understanding is that the Oldenburg office was going to ask her to return the Oldenburg papers.

[carosello]

I have heard of people registering foals with the GOV, then taking them to another registry, who would innocently register them with their registry since the foals aren't branded. If that is found out, I believe both registries would disown the foal.


There was an ad on warmbloodsforsale.com this summer that the breeder stated the foal would be inspected GOV and AHS!!! What are you going to do if unscrupulous breeders do this? And then which registry is at fault? LOL its pretty hard to monitor it all.

Equusmag.... we cannot tell you which registry to go with. Do a little homework and visit the respective websites and see if there is information that helps you. You will here plenty of poop from both sides so be prepared to shovel a little :lol:

Here is mare information from the GOV which you may find of help.
http://www.oldenburghorse.com/Oldbrg-InspectionMares-Insert.htm

Cartier wroteWho’s to say in another few years the GOV won’t have another shift in leadership and then we’ll all be looking back at this time period and disavowing the horses being entered now.
Thanks for your concern, but since you are with the ISR/old you shouldnt really have to worry about this dear! :yes:

[clint]

so how does a new breeder to the OLD circle decide which registry to go with?

I want as much prestige and value into my breeding program as possible, yet I want my foals to be branded.

I suppose all I could do is present my horses to both inspections and obtain dual registration, but I am not even sure that is possible and it gets expensive!

Is there any objective source of information that can tell, the "true" story of the split and what not?

On one hand, the GOV's reputation is immense and they are known for being though (critical) in their inspections which is great.

On the other hand, if the HAN people think the 100-day testing prepared with the ISR/OLD is good enough, well that says a lot too.

How do you decide?

I have access to both inspections; GOV is an 1h30 from here and ISR is 2 hours from here. Not a big difference in terms of logistics either. I know and respect both hosts as well. :confused:

In addition to all the things you are already considering, take into consideration customer service. I have a mare who was registered/branded/mare book approved Oldenburg/ISR in the days of the split. Earlier this year I looked at GOV stallions, and seriously considered presenting her to GOV for mare book approval. I had such a hard time getting information, and don't even go there getting anything permanent, like paperwork, :no: (I'm still waiting for that paperwork), that if I breed to a frozen GOV stallion I will get the foal inspected by Oldenburg/ISR and pay a foreign stallion fee.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I am not sure what year the rule was put in place, (5 to 10 years ago?) that said a horse can only be issued one set of papers by a registry member of the WBFSH. Before that, I beieve many horses were issued 2 sets of papers. I don't think they would revoke those issued before the rule, but certainly after. With the USDF you have to choose one registry for awards. There is really no reason to register in more than a single registry.

Approval is different, and horses can be APPROVED for breeding in many registries.

Back in 1998, shortly after the new registry for the GOV was formed, I took a mare to be inspected. I don't know what they were trying to prove, but the inspector had a tree sized chip on her shoulder. She treated all participants very rudely, and not a single mare was placed in the MMB, including a Dutch Ster mare. She treated everyone like they were presenting garbage, and she was thouroughly disgusted at having to be there.

Luckily, I had had my mare inspected the year before, and was just there for the foal. Based on the treatment I saw though, I decided I would never go back. The following year, I took my mare to the Westfalens, and WHAT a DIFFERENCE. It was well worth inspecting her in her 4th <sigh> registry.

Since then, I have tried about 4 tmes over the past decade to get a response about my mare's DNA typing, and not a single time has anyone even answered my call/email. The Dutch Warmblood Registry has now tried as well just this past month, and they can't get a response either.

Originally, I was determined to support the GOV, and not the ISR/OLD, but since then I have presented a mare and foal to the ISR/OLD, was treated very well, and will go that route again if needed.

[EquusMagnificus]

Once again - the Verband TRUSTED Brysch and Ramsauer to "do the right thing" for the Verband here in N.A. Both men caused problems which still haunt Oldenburg breeders in N.A., and the Verband itself.


What happened? I apologize for my curiosity :winkgrin:

[DownYonder]

Changing the breeding rules and scoring systems, putting ineligible mares in the MMB, "backyard licensing" of several stallions, being heavily involved in sales transactions (to the point of taking commissions), promising to approve young stallions if the prospective N.A. buyer purchased the stallion, etc., etc. There was lots of hanky-panky going on at the top but it was the QH mares in the MMB that caused the biggest uproar in Germany. At the time, MMB mares could produce licensed stallion sons, so having a QH in the MMB was a BIG problem. Now, licensed stallions have to be out of a second generation MMB mare, which has helped close that loophole.

[flshgordon]

From 1988 through 1997 all Oldenburgs bred in this country were inspected and approved because the GOV allowed it. The GOV operated in the USA as Oldenburg Registry North America. No one put a gun to the GOV’s head to come to this country and guide us to breed branded Oldenburgs. The GOV chose to do so. Stepping back a bit, can you image the leadership that allowed “the Split” to happen in our market place, creating a situation where American Oldenburg breeders fight back and forth with this, “My Oldenburg is better than yours” because the GOV’s decisions today are supposedly better than the were for a decade. Who’s to say in another few years the GOV won’t have another shift in leadership and then we’ll all be looking back at this time period and disavowing the horses being entered now. It is so destructive to American breeders to have such confusion in our market place. It serves those with imports, not American breeders. Think about it for a moment, which registry is always pushing the imports... does that serve Amercian breeders?

Couldn't have said it better myself....I honestly can't believe that there are people that say "my Oldenburg is better than yours"....but there are some pretty blatant examples of almost exactly that in this thread....you guys should be ashamed of yourselves for that crap. Why can't these 2 groups just leave each other alone and play nicely???:confused:

I love my OLDENBURG horse....she is beautiful, talented and that's the end of it. I don't care what the brand on her butt is, and I can't imagine anyone saying they wouldn't buy her (she's not for sale!) because some German guy didn't give her the right color papers. That would make them a fool, not me.

Some of you really need to grow up and "get over it". :rolleyes:

[Tiki]

I have also heard that Evelyn, instead of telling someone that her mare just wasn't the quality and type they were looking for, and why, told her the best thing she could do with the mare was to take her out and feed her to the lions. How does that help someone improve their breeding program?

[hackinaround]

I have a question. Not simple by any means. I have a HVB kwpn-na mare. She is only HVB because her previous owners who had her since birth never bothered to send in her papers. So at 14 when we aquired her we got her papers. She was retired due to a severe injury and is comfortable enough to be a broodie now. She is however not sound...prior to the injury she was sound and has a huge show record. Since her papers were sent in so late in life and she is not sound..she could not go to a keuring to be put in the main stud book where by linage she belongs.

Fast forward. Her foals are Reg with the Kwpn-na out of approved or lisenced stallions as Reg A or Foal book/studbook.

This year she is in foal to a ISR stallion. He however is of dutch linage. He was also asked to be a member of the Dutch Hunter book but the owner declined :no:.

If he was ISR/GOV and the regiestries had not split he was approved many many years ago this foal could get Dutch Reg A papers...because of the split this foal now can only have a Cert of Pedigree. Again:no:

When I spoke to ISR about getting the foal ISR papers they said we had to have the mare inspected. I explained she is now coming 18 and alough sound at the walk has a deffinate hitch in her gait from her injury at the trot. Not uncomfortable for life just not pretty anymore. The ISR said she would just get a low score most likely.

My question is we have mare with great lines..a huge show record, she obviously moved very well at one point. But becasue she has to be inspected by this Reg at 18 she will be discounted because of injury and age??

The most frustrating part of it all is she is by Pinschallah..who prior to being imported to the US was an approved GOV stallion. He was later approved by the KWPN-NA and thats how she has Dutch papers. She has more Oldenburg in her linage than Dutch!


http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2487742750100357206TIoQzT

Here is a picture of the mare taken 3 days ago. She is approx. 6 months in foal.

[DownYonder]

In addition to all the things you are already considering, take into consideration customer service. I have a mare who was registered/branded/mare book approved Oldenburg/ISR in the days of the split. Earlier this year I looked at GOV stallions, and seriously considered presenting her to GOV for mare book approval. I had such a hard time getting information, and don't even go there getting anything permanent, like paperwork, :no: (I'm still waiting for that paperwork), that if I breed to a frozen GOV stallion I will get the foal inspected by Oldenburg/ISR and pay a foreign stallion fee.


Mystic Owl, I don't know what timeframe you are referring to, but Holly was out on inspections most of late spring and summer. Did you try contacting the office in Germany?

[DownYonder]

I have also heard that Evelyn, instead of telling someone that her mare just wasn't the quality and type they were looking for, and why, told her the best thing she could do with the mare was to take her out and feed her to the lions. How does that help someone improve their breeding program?

Shall we all give examples of things inspectors say? How about the time an ISR inspector told someone that if he would just buy a certain young stallion from the inspector's friend in Germany, he (the inspector) would make sure the stallion got approved in N.A. Mind you, the stallion had been passed over at the Verband stallion selections.

[flshgordon]

and ISR won't give up the Oldenburg name and brand because that is its lifeline. It sucks in beginning breeders who think it is "the" Oldenburg registry in North America, and long-time ISR/ONA breeders also stay because it is financially expedient for them. No one wants to give up that Oldenburg name.


Talk about a chip on your shoulder :rolleyes: Was this REALLY necessary DY?

Usually stuff rolls off my back but what a CROCK of you-know-what :mad:

Not everyone who uses Old NA gets "sucked in". Some people do research, talk to others, and pick the registry that serves them best. And it is the Oldenburg Registry North America....that is the name. I've never been confused about it being the GOV and I'm sure anyone with half a pea brain can figure that out as well with a little research. So thanks for making one stupid, sweeping generalization about OLD NA members.

If GOV has a bunch of cranky women like you, thank heavens I made the right choice for me!

[DownYonder]

Sorry if that offended you. My understanding from talking to many ISR/ONA breeders - many of whom I consider FRIENDS, despite our registry differences - is that they stay with ISR because they have found it financially beneficial to them. After all, it is one of the largest registries in the U.S., it has a lot of very good member services, plus it has that vaunted Oldenburg name and brand. Look, people choose their registry for a variety of reasons. I chose Oldenburg because - as I have said before - no one is going to put the Oldenburg brand on my foals without the approval of the Oldenburg Verband. It has been THEIR brand for most of this century, and actually, going far, far back before that. It just doesn't seem right to let someone use it without the Verband's permission. But hey, that's just me. Other people are free to make their own choices.

And if ISR has a bunch of hot-headed, angry, overly-sensitive and overly defensive folks like YOU, I am glad I picked Oldenburg.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Mystic Owl, I don't know what timeframe you are referring to, but Holly was out on inspections most of late spring and summer. Did you try contacting the office in Germany?

That does not explain my lack of response over 10 years time. Not a single time have I ever had an email, or call returned. And now the Dutch Registry has not had a response from them on my behalf.

[HFSH]

I thought it was the International Sporthorse Registry (ISR) and before the split, also the Oldenburg NA. Was told at inspections they were different, they even had different brands. Now you only hear about the OLNA part.

But really, I wanted just post to say, instead of rehashing this, how about people use the search feature to find out more, so we dont end up with another cat fight that gets the forum locked. The search feature does work quite nicely.

[flshgordon]

Sorry if that offended you. My understanding from talking to many ISR/ONA breeders - many of whom I consider FRIENDS, despite our registry differences - is that they stay with ISR because they have found it financially beneficial to them. After all, it is one of the largest registries in the U.S., it has a lot of very good member services, plus it has that vaunted Oldenburg name and brand. Look, people choose their registry for a variety of reasons. I chose Oldenburg because - as I have said before - no one is going to put the Oldenburg brand on my foals without the approval of the Oldenburg Verband. It has been THEIR brand for most of this century, and actually, going far, far back before that. It just doesn't seem right to let someone use it without the Verband's permission. But hey, that's just me. Other people are free to make their own choices.

And if ISR has a bunch of hot-headed, angry, overly-sensitive and overly defensive folks like YOU, I am glad I picked Oldenburg.

Excuse me.....but you just insulted the whole lot of us by saying we got "sucked in" to the registry....blah blah blah. If you call that overly sensitive, I'd call you unable to reason like a normal person :rolleyes:

And I really don't get people that keep carrying a grudge over this. Really...you need to move on or take it to court and fix it yourself.

I think it's great there are a million registries to choose from so we don't all have to do the same thing and I chose the one I did because as you said above "it is one of the largest registries in the U.S., it has a lot of very good member services"....end of story. Not because I got "sucked in" as a beginner. sheesh

[flshgordon]

I thought it was the International Sporthorse Registry (ISR) and before the split, also the Oldenburg NA. Was told at inspections they were different, they even had different brands. Now you only hear about the OLNA part.

But really, I wanted just post to say, instead of rehashing this, how about people use the search feature to find out more, so we dont end up with another cat fight that gets the forum locked. The search feature does work quite nicely.

It is both. International Sporthorse Registry and Oldenburg N.A.

ISR has the lower mare books and is the registry for mares of insufficient pedigree, etc and has its own brand. Oldenburg NA has the higher mare books and offspring can be eligible to become stallions, etc. That was a drastic oversimplification but gives you an idea.

[Fairview Horse Center]

On another note, does anyone know why Karsten Kuehl is not inspectng for the ISR/OLD NA anymore?

[Edgar]

Karsten became breeding director of the Weser Ems riding pony registry instead of Breeding director of ISR/OLNA.

[Tiki]

I believe the 2 incidents you refer to DY - the QH(s) in the MMB were with the GOV, and well discussed in the past, and with the former dirctor (re stallions) who is no longer employed by either the GOV or ISR/OLNA.

[hluing]

From what I heard Karston was only briely the acting Weser-Ems director while Mareile was on maternity leave. She is back now...so I wonder what Karston is doing.

[clint]

Mystic Owl, I don't know what timeframe you are referring to, but Holly was out on inspections most of late spring and summer. Did you try contacting the office in Germany?

I make my breeding decisions in late winter, and after weeks of e-mailing, got a response from Holly, who was then going to send me information, which I'm still waiting for. As a matter of fact, you said you would send information which I never got, either. If I can't get information to make my breeding plans, why on earth would I want to up my stress level trying to get information once I have bred the mare and have a foal on the ground?

There are two Oldenburg registries, currently, each with its own similar rules, one which brands. Different stallions are with each registry, some with both. At this point, I am going with the one that gives me information in a timely fashion. And I was around during the entire split, listened to both sides scream at each other, which will happen/is happening now. Very tiresome, really, and I long ago decided that one is not better than the other.

[Galileo1998]

Well - I will give my unbiased opinion based on my experiences with both.

The GOV offers more "snob appeal" and IN GENERAL seems to get more respect from people, including potential buyers. On the other hand the customer service from the office is dreadful and has been for at least the last few years that I know of.

The ISR/Old NA offers far better customer service and a brand on the babies butt. They don't seem to be held in the same regard though. I'm not sure what the reasons are for that, but it is my experience.

[EquusMagnificus]

So... in regards to all being said, I am gathering in my situation, the best I could do would be to have mom approved GOV for the "snob appeal" as Galileo expressed it ;) But have both mom and babies approved and branded (foals only) through ISR/OLD. In such way, getting the approval stamp on the quality of my mare while still getting scores and benefiting from mandatory inspection for the foals (which is essential (IMHO) in developing a good breeding program, especially for novice breeders like me who might not yet have the experience and knowledge to properly judge the 'end product').

Does it make any sense at all? ;)

[clint]

So... in regards to all being said, I am gathering in my situation, the best I could do would be to have mom approved GOV for the "snob appeal" as Galileo expressed it ;) But have both mom and babies approved and branded (foals only) through ISR/OLD. In such way, getting the approval stamp on the quality of my mare while still getting scores and benefiting from mandatory inspection for the foals (which is essential (IMHO) in developing a good breeding program, especially for novice breeders like me who might not yet have the experience and knowledge to properly judge the 'end product').

Does it make any sense at all? ;)

You know, when it gets into snob appeal, who knows? For strictly snob appeal, other registries spring to mind before Oldenburg, either one of them. As far as selling horses/foals, I have had buyers want a photograph of the brand on the butt, just to be sure the horse was branded, because the brand mattered. In the end, I think it important to have the horse registered but as far as which registry, the appearance/ability/potential of the horse seems to be more important to buyers than exactly which registry.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Most (99%?) of buyers don't care about the brands on their butts, or lack there of, OR which registry they get papers from, OR for that matter, what kind of papers they are. They do want some kind of papers from an established registry that they believe will prove the bloodlines on the horse, and to be eligible for breed awards.

BREEDERS care about the paperwork/brand, but 99% of buyers are not breeders.

[eqsiu]

Well, thank goodness everyone takes thoroughbred mares so my choice gets made by which registry the stallion I like is licensed by.

[Sonesta]

Changing the breeding rules and scoring systems, putting ineligible mares in the MMB, "backyard licensing" of several stallions, being heavily involved in sales transactions (to the point of taking commissions), promising to approve young stallions if the prospective N.A. buyer purchased the stallion, etc., etc. There was lots of hanky-panky going on at the top but it was the QH mares in the MMB that caused the biggest uproar in Germany. At the time, MMB mares could produce licensed stallion sons, so having a QH in the MMB was a BIG problem. Now, licensed stallions have to be out of a second generation MMB mare, which has helped close that loophole.

then...

Shall we all give examples of things inspectors say? How about the time an ISR inspector told someone that if he would just buy a certain young stallion from the inspector's friend in Germany, he (the inspector) would make sure the stallion got approved in N.A. Mind you, the stallion had been passed over at the Verband stallion selections.

DY, that's a nice "spin" you did above. Now, please do also tell everyone that it was Roland Ramsauer that was guilty of all these bad deeds and that ISR FIRED him over it -- then he ran whimpering and complaining to GOV who broke away from ISR and put Ramsauer in charge of its new registry -- where he continued to place QH mares in the MMB (causing huge scandals in Germany) and sell mediocre stallions to people in the U.S. -- till the GOV finally wised up to him and then they fired him, too. But by that time the bad feelings he caused between ISR and GOV were beyond repair.

Bottom line: RR was the bad guy, not ISR/ONA.

And, yes. It IS time to just get over it on BOTH sides. Burn RR in effigy and kiss and make up. That would be the ideal solution for everyone.

[EquusMagnificus]

Most (99%?) of buyers don't care about the brands on their butts, or lack there of, OR which registry they get papers from, OR for that matter, what kind of papers they are. They do want some kind of papers from an established registry that they believe will prove the bloodlines on the horse, and to be eligible for breed awards.

BREEDERS care about the paperwork/brand, but 99% of buyers are not breeders.

True... true... I notice the registry... but I didn't much before getting interested in breeding.

[Tiki]

Yay, Sonesta. That's basically what I posted above, but I didn't dare name names.

YES! it's time to let bygones be bygones. RR is LONG gone and the GOV is now part of the Federation. Let's all just join what works best for each of us and do our best to continue to breed what are turning out to be some of the best sporthorses in the world!!!

[Sonesta]

If there was a lick of sense in the leadership of both registries, they'd get an intermediary to sit down with them and work out a way to affilliate with one another again.

ISR brings to the table: the brand, a great infrastructure and reputation of good service to its members, huge numbers of registered horses and approved mares and stallions, and its part in the stallion testing.

GOV brings to the table: the Verband stamp of approval

BOTH sides agree to the inspection standards and agree to the inspectors used

The benefits to both would be enormous.

[Tiki]

Right, if they're 'suspicious' of each other's inspection standards, let every inspection have one of each, a GOV inspector and an ISR/OLNA inspector.

[Hillside H Ranch]

If there was a lick of sense in the leadership of both registries, they'd get an intermediary to sit down with them and work out a way to affilliate with one another again.

ISR brings to the table: the brand, a great infrastructure and reputation of good service to its members, huge numbers of registered horses and approved mares and stallions, and its part in the stallion testing.

GOV brings to the table: the Verband stamp of approval

BOTH sides agree to the inspection standards and agree to the inspectors used

The benefits to both would be enormous.

And this is the smartest thing I've read in a while on this topic!
I use ISR/Old NA simply because it was the first registry that I started with and they haven't given me a reason to leave! Excellent customer service and they are one of the few registries that has an inspection close to me.
I would love if the two registries could let bygones be bygones and figure out a way to end the bad feelings between the two. Then we wouldn't have to have this discussion anymore!

[Erin]

You all are getting exactly ONE warning. Either discuss the topic like rational adults, or it will be shut down.

You would think, after all this time, it *might* be possible to have a civil discussion on the topic, but apparently a few folks here are bound and determined to ensure that's never the case. :rolleyes:

[Sonesta]

Sorry, Erin. I promise not to say another word.

[pwynnnorman]

The inspector happened to have a stay over after the inspection and I had said to someone that I really wanted to bring my mare so they asked him and he said he wouldn't mind dropping by the farm to do it considering I had been very much a part of the inspection all day. That was a rare and kind gesture and certainly not required. My little mare made main mare book and I was able to do it on the lawn.

A unique experience. An act of kindness I shall not forget anyday soon.



Changing the breeding rules and scoring systems, putting ineligible mares in the MMB, "backyard licensing" of several stallions, being heavily involved in sales transactions (to the point of taking commissions), promising to approve young stallions if the prospective N.A. buyer purchased the stallion, etc., etc. There was lots of hanky-panky going on at the top but it was the QH mares in the MMB that caused the biggest uproar in Germany.


Oh, Wow: the juxtaposition of these two statements and the potential implications sends me running for the hills, proverbially.

(As in, and what if she HADN'T been "involved" in the inspection? Where does the line get drawn between "kindness" and other motivations? I appreciate kindness, too, but I prefer strict professionalism, if only for the sake of appearances--especially in this particular area!)

Anyway, this exactly why I just can't see myself ever putting my years of hard work and self-education in front of ANY for-profit, subjective, unlicensed (and therefore oversight-defficient...short of a lawsuit) evaluative process. These threads always serve to remind me of just how little trust I have in human nature, especially wherever egos and economics are in the mix. I wish I didn't feel this way. Blame it on the internet.

[ljshorses]

Most (99%?) of buyers don't care about the brands on their butts, or lack there of, OR which registry they get papers from, OR for that matter, what kind of papers they are. They do want some kind of papers from an established registry that they believe will prove the bloodlines on the horse, and to be eligible for breed awards.

BREEDERS care about the paperwork/brand, but 99% of buyers are not breeders.

I use to think that too, but the last 2 years haven proven to me that many buyers do want certain brands etc.. I breed some for the amateur market as well as some for higher levels of competition. Some would be considered for breeding animals in the future. It is those considered for breeding possibly in the future that my buyers then ask for certain registries/brands/approvals. As an example, I just 2 days ago had someone contact me for a stallion prospect that was registered with either Old NA or NAKWPN. I had sold both stallion candidates I had from either registry, but told them of others we had available (were not registered with the 2 registries I noted) and they didn't even want to hear about them. And one had come in 2nd at Devon! They said they didn't want to even consider any other registries, hmmm. So even if they are mainly for performance, the off chance they may be considered for breeding later is enough for some buyers to pick particular registries when shopping.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I totally agree that people that want to breed, and especially someone that may be thinking stallion prospect will be very choosy about breed/registry. As a breeder, there are many breeds that I will not even consider for a mare, even if she was Grand Champion at Devon, and for free.

[monami]

I have only had experience with the GOV not the Old NA. I can also attest to the fact that their customer service is severely lacking and I don't think that is a huge secret.
I hope they work on improving that or I think you will see less and less people supporting the registry. I can't remember the last time I received a publication or received a response to an email or voice mail with out making numerous attempts... it is extremely frustrating.

I belong to the RPSI and the AHS and customer service is night and day from the GOV.

[Cartier]

If there was a lick of sense in the leadership of both registries, they'd get an intermediary to sit down with them and work out a way to affilliate with one another again.

ISR brings to the table: the brand, a great infrastructure and reputation of good service to its members, huge numbers of registered horses and approved mares and stallions, and its part in the stallion testing.

GOV brings to the table: the Verband stamp of approval

BOTH sides agree to the inspection standards and agree to the inspectors used

The benefits to both would be enormous.

Haven't read all the comments on this tread... but we have advocated this for years now... It is the BEST solution for all American Oldenburg Breeders. Kudos Rebecca.

[Mozart]

I have only had experience with the GOV not the Old NA. I can also attest to the fact that their customer service is severely lacking and I don't think that is a huge secret.
I hope they work on improving that or I think you will see less and less people supporting the registry. I can't remember the last time I received a publication or received a response to an email or voice mail with out making numerous attempts... it is extremely frustrating.

I belong to the RPSI and the AHS and customer service is night and day from the GOV.

I just have to add, that recently I submitted an ad for a sales horse to the GOV website and they were extremely prompt and helpful. I know someone who had communication issues with them in the past but that has not been my experience.

[hluing]

That is because the new webmaster and newletter writer is wonderful. Stephanie has been doing an absolutely great job with GOV!!!

If someone is new to all this and is choosing between the registries (both of which I have used at some point)...I recommend attending each inspection. That much more then a website, etc gives you a real feel for the registry...the horses there, the inspectors, the scores. Go and meet them and see what they have to offer.

[Foxtrot's]

Wouldn't it be nice if a horse with GOV registration sold better than a OLD/NA - then we could all register GOV and have snob buyers beating a path to our doors. It has seemed to me that buyers were buying the horse, its bloodlines, its performance, conformation, temperament etc. etc. - well, that's what I look for, not its papers.
After all these years it's about time some people got over themselves and quit harbouring a grudge. Pick your registry and be happy. Heck.

[DownYonder]

DY, that's a nice "spin" you did above. Now, please do also tell everyone that it was Roland Ramsauer that was guilty of all these bad deeds and that ISR FIRED him over it -- then he ran whimpering and complaining to GOV who broke away from ISR and put Ramsauer in charge of its new registry -- where he continued to place QH mares in the MMB (causing huge scandals in Germany) and sell mediocre stallions to people in the U.S. -- till the GOV finally wised up to him and then they fired him, too. But by that time the bad feelings he caused between ISR and GOV were beyond repair.

Yep, I am well aware that RR was involved in those episodes. However, in THIS instance:

(my earlier quote) How about the time an ISR inspector told someone that if he would just buy a certain young stallion from the inspector's friend in Germany, he (the inspector) would make sure the stallion got approved in N.A. Mind you, the stallion had been passed over at the Verband stallion selections.

I was referring to another ISR inspector - long after RR was gone.

[DownYonder]

If there was a lick of sense in the leadership of both registries, they'd get an intermediary to sit down with them and work out a way to affilliate with one another again.

ISR brings to the table: the brand, a great infrastructure and reputation of good service to its members, huge numbers of registered horses and approved mares and stallions, and its part in the stallion testing.

GOV brings to the table: the Verband stamp of approval

BOTH sides agree to the inspection standards and agree to the inspectors used

The benefits to both would be enormous.

Agree that the benefits would be HUGE. From what I have been told, though, the Verband would want all breeding rules and inspection policies the same as in Germany, and they would have to re-evaluate the mare book placement of all mares inspected by ISR/ONA since the split to make sure all mares were in the correct mare books according to Veband policies. But who knows, it may happen yet one day. ;)

[DownYonder]

On another note, does anyone know why Karsten Kuehl is not inspectng for the ISR/OLD NA anymore?

Karsten left for reasons we won't go into here. He was then offered employment by the Verband but ISR sued him to prevent him from working in North America. As someone already said, he was acting breeding director for Weser-Ems for a while until Mareile Oellrich returned from maternity leave.

[DownYonder]

That is because the new webmaster and newletter writer is wonderful. Stephanie has been doing an absolutely great job with GOV!!!

Yes, she is doing a super job! Wait till you see the new magazine! :D

Oh, and in case anyone is wondering - I do not work for or speak for the Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society / Oldenburg Verband.

[Cartier]

Listening to breeders like Pat Belskie a.k.a. Ashemont (who dealt with both Old NA and the GOV for well over a decade... and had horses in both registries before and after “The Split), it’s very clear that both registries engaged in the same practices. It is misleading to suggest that one registry took some mythical “High Road” and the other did not. It is misleading to suggest that one registry had higher standards... they were both doing essentially the same thing, with the same personnel.

The kindest observation one can make is that the leadership from Germany has been flawed and/or far too focused on what is good for German Oldenburg breeders as opposed to what is good for American Oldenburg breeders and our American market place. If you look at the past 25 years in this country, Old NA has the best track record for advancing American breeder's interests, to the extent possible given the personalities and agendas involved.

[Rubs Not Pats]

I had a similar experiance with ISR/OLD with my mare inspection. They were at my farm already and I was out of the country and they agreed to slip my mare in for reinspection. I can't thank them enough, especially since the keuring is quite a distance from us and the following year, I would have had to make trips because I had too many. Kudos to them! Now, they are working with me to set up a mare performance test for the same mare.

All registries have problems. When I first started working with them, they were hard. They have come a long way. There still is a way to go. I do think that scoring has been a lot higher than it used to be and premium levels need to be re-adjusted.

[DownYonder]

Of course the Verband is going to focus on what is best for German Oldenburg breeders. It is the 3rd largest registry in Germany, with over 7800 actively breeding mares (according to figures from the head of the FN).

And of course ISR is going to focus on N.A., because that is its target market. It was formed specifically to operate in N.A. and to my knowledge is virtually non-existent elsewhere.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Of course the Verband is going to focus on what is best for German Oldenburg breeders. It is the 3rd largest registry in Germany, with over 7800 actively breeding mares (according to figures from the head of the FN).

And of course ISR is going to focus on N.A., because that is its target market. It was formed specifically to operate in N.A. and to my knowledge is virtually non-existent elsewhere.

You found the key. The GOV is NOT set up to meet the needs of American breeders. Is is not their focus. We are an afterthought to them, and that becomes obvious in customer service.

Why in 10 years can't they answer my question about where my mare's DNA is on file, and the case number? Or even respond in any way?

OTOH, the AWS responded immediately with my stallion's DNA and case #.

[DownYonder]

Why in 10 years can't they answer my question about where my mare's DNA is on file, and the case number? Or even respond in any way?

When and where was your mare inspected, and who was the inspector?

[Cartier]

Of course the Verband is going to focus on what is best for German Oldenburg breeders. It is the 3rd largest registry in Germany, with over 7800 actively breeding mares (according to figures from the head of the FN).

And of course ISR is going to focus on N.A., because that is its target market. It was formed specifically to operate in N.A. and to my knowledge is virtually non-existent elsewhere.
Possibly we've all missed a few salient points, I should be more clear. The GOV chose of their own free will to come to the USA back in 1988 and guide American breeders to breed O and Crown branded Oldenburgs. Dr. Roland Ramsauer, the GOV’s Breeding Director (in Germany ) was also the Breeding Director here in the USA for 12 years (with Old NA, OA and OSBA).

Either the GOV is the worst group of business people on the planet and ignored over a decade of Inspection and Approval results in the USA or they knew and approved of what was being done in their name in this country for over a decade.

In any event, the GOV’s current theme, “Hey American Oldenburg Breeders and purchasers, ignore what we did for the first 12 years and pay attention to what we’re doing now. Turns out that you couldn’t trust us then, but now we’re the best ” is a disaster for American Oldenburg Breeders.

There doesn't have to be a "them vs. us" mentality. It could be a "let's all push the ball forward together to benefit everyone" kind of effort, which would actually benefit ALL American Oldenburg Breeders.

[Fairview Horse Center]

My mare was inspected in 9/24/1997 at Arno Koskos. RR was inspecting for the GOV at the time under the Oldenburger of America name. Her inspection was accepted by the GOV (current registry) the following year Dr Evelyn Vohlstad (sp?) was the inspector. Her foal was registered at that time.

[Sonesta]

deleted cause I forgot that I said I would keep my mouth and fingers shut

[tri]

I think this all just shows what a complete disaster it is for american breeders to turn over their breeding efforts to a foreign country.

This could happen with ANY of the euro - backed registries here. Most people don't know that it almost happened with the American Holsteiner Horse Association as well. Once upon a time, the Holsteiner brand was trademarked here in the U.S. and NOT by the Germans. It was held up for ransom for a while but fortunately, that matter was resolved though not without some bad blood. Then there was the whole turmoil with the Selle Francias folks with allegations of theft, etc.

As Down Yonder posted, the Oldenburg Verband is more focused on the German markets than the U.S. markets - as they should be. Just like all the other euro -backed registries here are here to promote their home country. Their goal is NOT to create a cohesive industry here that rivals what is in europe. Their goal is to further promote their home country, increase frozen semen sales and the sale of riding horses & breeding stock.

By putting our future into the hands of foreign registries that have less than our best interests at heart, we have set ourselves up for continuing problems.

However, the ISR/Old na could have been THE cohesive solution to uniting american breeders if they just didn't think they had to have the Oldenburg name & brand. That turns my stomach. They are an american registry (even if the guy lives in Germany) and could have been the launch of the American Sporthorse as an internationally known and respected product.

[DownYonder]

Most people don't know that it almost happened with the American Holsteiner Horse Association as well. Once upon a time, the Holsteiner brand was trademarked here in the U.S. and NOT by the Germans. It was held up for ransom for a while but fortunately, that matter was resolved though not without some bad blood.

Yes, if I recall correctly, the Holsteiner brand was trademarked by Emil Jung, and ransomed for a a very handsome of money by a private citizen, who then turned it over to AHHA. I believe that is where ISR got the idea to trademark the Oldenburg brand - Emil Jung was Scott Hassler's mentor.

However, the ISR/Old na could have been THE cohesive solution to uniting american breeders if they just didn't think they had to have the Oldenburg name & brand. That turns my stomach. They are an american registry (even if the guy lives in Germany) and could have been the launch of the American Sporthorse as an internationally known and respected product.

And on this, I absolutely agree. ISR could have been THE #1 registry in North America, even without the Oldenburg name and brand. I think there are many people who would have supported it as a standalone registry, but they were turned off by the fact that it claimed the O and Crown as its own.

[DownYonder]

My mare was inspected in 9/24/1997 at Arno Koskos. RR was inspecting for the GOV at the time under the Oldenburger of America name. Her inspection was accepted by the GOV (current registry) the following year Dr Evelyn Vohlstad (sp?) was the inspector. Her foal was registered at that time.

I thought the registries were not allowed to release DNA case #s.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I thought the registries were not allowed to release DNA case #s.

That is not a Davis rule. They have expressed their frustration on the lack of cooperation from some registries.

Maybe some of the registries have made a rule to hold it for ransom? For what purpose? To make someone register with their registry? Kind of backfires, don't cha think?

I know you can get a copy of a horse's bloodtyping from the Dutch for just a couple of bucks. The Dutch seem quite happy to help. Another reason I am glad to use the Dutch and AWS.

Even it the GOV refuses to let you know your OWN horse's case number, why wouldn't they return a call or email to say that? Is it even legal for a company to not release medical information when requested?

[DownYonder]

Beats me. I wll see what I can find out.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Thanks. My most recent request was on 9/18/2007 by email. The Dutch request on my behalf was since then.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Just a litte confused. I don't want to get in the middle of anything, just would like my question answered. There is another thread on here about the Chestnut Lawn Oldenburg inspection. On it they list mares that are 1/2 draft and 1/2 trakehner as well as a QH mare. Where are these horses going? WIll they be branded? Are their offspring listed as Oldenburgs? Only if they are bred to Oldenburg stallions?

Thanks, don't string me up.

[Cartier]

My mare was inspected in 9/24/1997 at Arno Koskos. RR was inspecting for the GOV at the time under the Oldenburger of America name. Her inspection was accepted by the GOV (current registry) the following year Dr Evelyn Vohlstad (sp?) was the inspector. Her foal was registered at that time.

Arno Kosko (sp?) who owned Traumtaunzer (sp?) inspected your mare... and the GOV accepted it? Arno... Arno the guy in VA?

Hmmmm?

That kind of puts this whole situation into the proper perspective.


Btw, we have video of an inspection with Roland Ramsauer at Arno's and video of Arno out at some Wine County CA festival with a chestnut Ladykiller son... interesting performance, interesting man... but an inspector for the GOV???

[flshgordon]

Just a litte confused. I don't want to get in the middle of anything, just would like my question answered. There is another thread on here about the Chestnut Lawn Oldenburg inspection. On it they list mares that are 1/2 draft and 1/2 trakehner as well as a QH mare. Where are these horses going? WIll they be branded? Are their offspring listed as Oldenburgs? Only if they are bred to Oldenburg stallions?

Thanks, don't string me up.

If it was an ISR/Old NA inspection, then they should go into the lower mare books of ISR, not Oldenburg NA. Their foals would be eligible for only the ISR brand and not be listed as Oldenburgs. If it was a GOV inspection then I have no idea.

Either way, the mares don't get branded, only their offspring.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Arno Kosko (sp?) who owned Traumtaunzer (sp?) inspected your mare... and the GOV accepted it? Arno... Arno the guy in VA?

Hmmmm?

That kind of puts this whole situation into the proper perspective.

Nope. My post:
My mare was inspected in 9/24/1997 at Arno Kosko's. RR was inspecting for the GOV

[Oakstable]

I'm not wading through ANOTHER Oldenburg thread but I peeked at the most recent page.

I do think Oldenburg ISR is becoming the umbrella American registry for sporthorses.

I sense a movement away from the origins with the O ... and it would be great for everyone if the O brand was returned in the US to the Verband.

I don't have any mares or foals with the organization so I am really speaking from the peanut gallery.

I am basing my hunch on the number of stallions in the registry. It represents the widest selection of bloodlines in the US.

Just an opinion.

[not again]

How can any registry with a foreign name, owner and/or office overseas represent America?:confused:

[Iron Horse Farm]

I guess I wasn't clear because I'm not getting my question answered. At an ONA/ISR inspection there were mares presented that were 1/2 drafts, mares presented that were 1/2 Trakehner and mares that were QH. Are these mares inspected right alongside say a Sandro Hit mare? Do the scores then decide that one is going ONA and the other ISR? If the 1/2 draft is accepted only ISR, can the owner present the foal? If she can present the foal, is it an Oldenburg foal? I would think that if I am understanding correctly (and please correct me if I am wrong, because I am trying to figure this out) if all of the mares are presented and scored, wouldn't it be an insult to be put in the ISR, since it is for "lower book" mares? My confusion comes from the many sales ads I have seen advertising an NA/ISR mare (or whatever) for sale. So does it have to be one or the other? With one being good and one not so good?

[flshgordon]

How can any registry with a foreign name, owner and/or office overseas represent America?:confused:

By paying attention to the needs of their clientele/members: Americans

[flshgordon]

I guess I wasn't clear because I'm not getting my question answered. At an ONA/ISR inspection there were mares presented that were 1/2 drafts, mares presented that were 1/2 Trakehner and mares that were QH. Are these mares inspected right alongside say a Sandro Hit mare? Do the scores then decide that one is going ONA and the other ISR? If the 1/2 draft is accepted only ISR, can the owner present the foal? If she can present the foal, is it an Oldenburg foal? I would think that if I am understanding correctly (and please correct me if I am wrong, because I am trying to figure this out) if all of the mares are presented and scored, wouldn't it be an insult to be put in the ISR, since it is for "lower book" mares? My confusion comes from the many sales ads I have seen advertising an NA/ISR mare (or whatever) for sale. So does it have to be one or the other? With one being good and one not so good?

Sorry, I guess I did not do a good job of explaining. The first criteria is pedigree. If a mare does not meet a minimum of 50% approved bloodlines (the info on what registries that entails is on their site www.isroldenburg.org (http://www.isroldenburg.org)) then she is only eligible for the PRE-mare book which is in ISR. She must score a minimum of (I think) 90 points and if she gets 90 points, can be in the pre-mare book. If she gets 89 points, she is not approved for breeding at all. (so this would be for instance the QH if it is not more than 50% TB, or the draft, etc). If the horse has 50% of a 3 gen documented pedigree and gets not less than 90 points, it is eligible for the ISR Mare book (again....only offered in ISR). So in the above cases, the first criteria is pedigree. If you bring a QH mare that is 25% TB, even if she scores 112 points, she will still only be in the ISR book and only be approved ISR so her foals will be registered only ISR, not Oldenburg.

Then you move on to the Oldenburg mare books (main mare book & premium mare) where the requirement is (again *I think*) more than 75% approved pedigree and not less than 95 points or something like that for main and maybe 105 for premium?

Does that make it clear as mud?

Yes the QH, draft and Sandro hit's will all get judged side by side but the QH and draft go in knowing they are only eligible for the lower books whereas the sandro hit would likely be eligible for the higher ones with the right score.

[talloaks]

Just a litte confused. I don't want to get in the middle of anything, just would like my question answered. There is another thread on here about the Chestnut Lawn Oldenburg inspection. On it they list mares that are 1/2 draft and 1/2 trakehner as well as a QH mare. Where are these horses going? WIll they be branded? Are their offspring listed as Oldenburgs? Only if they are bred to Oldenburg stallions?

Thanks, don't string me up.

Hi Iron Horse Farm, I am looking at the results of the inspection at Chestnut Lawn Farm and there was a mare presented who was by a Trakehner stallion and out of a TB/Clyde mare, (so no more than 1/4 draft) and she was put in the lowest ISR book, the pre mare book. If she has a foal by an approved ISR/OLDNA stallion the foal could be branded with ISR. Not the OLDNA brand. Now the AQHA mare was bred to a pony stallion and actually she scored quite well with 103 points and went into the ISR pre mare book, so her pony foal by an approved ISR/OLDNA pony stallion will get an ISR brand.
These two mares can only have their foals registered as ISR foals and receive the ISR brand. Hope this helps. Incidentally the AQHA mare was really cute and a nice dam for a pony foal.;)

[flshgordon]

So does it have to be one or the other? With one being good and one not so good?

Forgot to address this part. The score for an ISR mare/foal can still be good. She could get over 100 points but if the pedigree is not documented, you still have a really nice mare out of unknown parents who is only eligible for the lowest mare book

[Cartier]

Nope. My post:

Oh thank god!!! :lol: "At" not "by."

[tri]

"How can any registry with a foreign name, owner and/or office overseas represent America"

Well, that is what I meant - they need to drop the Oldenburg use - they aren't oldenburgs - no one thinks that they are oldenburgs, they are born here, they are American. If I ran out and started a Dutch registry, somehow legally grabbed hold of the KWPN brand and started inspecting horses/branding them KWPN, would YOU think those horses were Dutch Warmblood horses??? I don't think you would or anyone with half a brain.

This whole thing made a LOT of people turn up their noses at the ISR and I think the registry would have been just as well off if not a WHOLE LOT BIGGER/BETTER, if they hadn't done it.

[Oakstable]

Well, it is impossible to rewrite history. At the time, it made sense to them. The market has moved on. The US does need an umbrella registry and this is it.

Oldenburg ISR does not need the crown with the O.

Maybe they need a new logo for the "oldenburg" side of the registry and leave the ISR designation for horses lacking bloodlines/pedigree.

Registeries are simply registeries, they are not breeds except for the Trakehners.

[RTBSH]

my older mare scored 103 points but is only 75% approved blood lines (TB). Her daughter, by Pablo, was the site champion filly this year and was branded ISR. She will be eligible for the Main Mare book because she now has over 75% approved blood lines. Her foals (Paloma's) will be eligible for the OLD brand if she makes the Main Mare Book.

BTW... the breeding director was the inspector and he commented on the really high quality of horses here. Some are better than those in Germany, which makes sense because of the high quality of horses we (Americans) have imported. There are many stallions here that exceeded 120 points on their 100 DT and many state premium and premium mares.

I will say that I have been to other registries inspections and one of them, who issues german papers, approved a stallion that was not that nice and some iffy mares. This registry seems like they will also accept questionable horses, but I don't hear people bitching about them. Is this because they receive "German Papers"? Does that make their horses better? Personally, I do not think so.

[graystonefarm]

Yes the QH, draft and Sandro hit's will all get judged side by side but the QH and draft go in knowing they are only eligible for the lower books whereas the sandro hit would likely be eligible for the higher ones with the right score.

Unless, of course, the SH is out of a QH or draft mare. ;)

[Edgar]

Oldenburg ISR does not need the crown with the O.

I guess you did not know that the only registry choice for Oldenburg breeders in the US was the ISR/Oldenburg NA before 2000 or so. A lot of those horses are eligible for both GOV and OLNA and many have gone from one to another or belong to both so there is no doubt they are "real Oldenburgs" ;) Besides that group there is an even larger group who thinks they have now an Oldenburg- They bred to an Oldenburg stallion , got the mare approved, foal registered...

Many of these Oldenburg horse owners that had no choice in registry when they started breeding?? It is OK with you to call that now an American warmblood or an ISR horse. Lets see how they like that idea.

Tri don't you think Hanoverian breeders breed Hanoverians to Hanoverians and then produce a Hanoverian? Well surprise, that is actually what is mostly registered with the AHS. The pre-studbook, which will probably no longer exist after next year, is specificly for TB's and TB crosses and only a portion of the total registrations. The accept only about 30 TB mares a year.
Do you call the Mercedes M class a Chrysler because its made in the US?

For you who profess this theory, I am pretty sure you can fit your horse in the ISR registry anytime, no need to call them Oldenburgs or whatever breed you think you breed. Some others(but not US bred Trakehners because they are not the purest of this pure breed;) may fit in the AHS registry; an independent non profit American organization with all elected officials and a hired office staf at your service.

I think only a few of the same people are pasionate about this Oldenburg stuff, The truth has been twisted a lot about it, as I read in some posts amnesia has set in also in some, most others fall asleep.....

[Cartier]

Sometimes if we put things in a emotion- neutral context we can see the underlying points better. I’ll put this in the context of breeding / competing top Dobermans.

We have line-bred offspring of the Top Winning Doberman of All Time, Ch. Brunswig’s Cryptonite. We spend tens of thousands of dollars on the dogs each year and have a substantial investment in them which is grounded in their place in the AKC Registry / Studbook and in the AKC accolades the bloodline has earned. Our dogs (our bloodline) have a substantial market value based upon stud book placements and recognitions earned from AKC approved judges. We (and many others who came before and after us in our pedigree) have a HUGE dollar investment in the evaluations we've all paid for over the years from the AKC.

Now, let's say that at some point in time the two guys in current leadership positions at AKC have a fight, e.g., that Ron Menaker wants to go own way and Dennis Sprung wants to go another, and in the process one or both decides to undermine the value of part of the studbook, which might include our Dobermans. Believe me, we would object, STRENOULSY !!! As would thousands of other breeders who relied upon what was done in the AKC’s name. No one would give a flying fig about the personal drama between the two leaders. NO one would give a flying fig about the self-serving gossip surrounding the leadership of the day. Rather, AKC breeders would care about how that drama impacted the market value of what they own. We breeders would expect / demand that the registry leadership resolve disputes in a manner that did not negatively impact the value of our personal property.... i.e. our breeding stock.

[carosello]

TGIF :yes:

Gosh its CoTH just like the good ol' days. :eek:
Why dont we let this one just die guys. No need to rehash and rehash. New breeders can read between the lines and contact people privately if they need more information.

The best thing is there is a registry to fit everyone's needs!

[DownYonder]

One thing is for sure - Oldenburg must have done SOMETHING right or so many people wouldn’t be wanting to claim they are breeding Oldenburgs. :lol:

[Edgar]

Oldenburg must have done SOMETHING right....

Well, they are the largest collective group of "warmblood" breeders in North America. Part of that is because they accept any other German breed mare and TB's as their own upon inspection aproval which covers a very large group of horses. That in turn makes it an obvious place for stallionowners to have their stallions approved and to send clients as the mare will be inspected and most likely the foal registered.

[diamondgirl]

Well then, Cartier, perhaps you should stick to breeding and showing Doberman's. {wink}

[Tiki]

If I ran out and started a Dutch registry, somehow legally grabbed hold of the KWPN brand and started inspecting horses/branding them KWPN, would YOU think those horses were Dutch Warmblood horses??? But Tri, the Dutch did just that with the KWPN-NA!!! What's your point????? Nothing? as usual.

[holsteinersrock]

Put a fancy label on it at sell it to the Americans... good god, where are those tomatos and eggs coming from that just hit my head?!?

We have one stallion in ISR/Oldenburg and have immesely enjoyed the experience, plus our breeders and fellow mare owners are happy with them.

Presenting another one to GOV soon, why? Because they asked. We'll see how it goes.

Anna
www.westwiththewind.com

[misita]

[quote] Presenting another one to GOV soon, why? Because they asked. We'll see how it goes. ]


What are the fees to present a stallion to GOV? And what is the yearly stallion dues? Are you going to the Hassler stallion inspection? Does anybody know how many stallions will be seen at that inspection?

Thanks
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[tri]

"But Tri, the Dutch did just that with the KWPN-NA!!! What's your point???"

Uhhh, Tiki, tiki, tiki, lost as usual, the KWPN-na exists at the dictation and direction of the KWPN who, I might add, could sever their relationship at anytime they choose and we could have another brand crisis on our hands.

Here is a cut & paste from the KWPN-na website:

"In 1983, the Dutch Warmblood Studbook in North America was established as the North American Department of the Royal Warmblood Studbook of the Netherlands (KWPN)"

If the KWPN did pull their support from the KWPN-na and the KWPN-na obtained through the American legal system the right to continue using the KWPN brand with the KWPN adamantly OPPOSED TO THEM DOING SO and the KWPN-na admitted that they were NOT going to use the same standards as they do in Holland, and the inspectors used were NOT the inspectors used in Holland, would KWPN-na breeders, from that point forward STILL be breeding "real" Dutch warmblood horses?

[tri]

Edgar, the BWP does the same thing and they aren't anywhere near as large.

[holsteinersrock]

[quote] Presenting another one to GOV soon, why? Because they asked. We'll see how it goes. ]


What are the fees to present a stallion to GOV? And what is the yearly stallion dues? Are you going to the Hassler stallion inspection? Does anybody know how many stallions will be seen at that inspection?

Thanks
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[holsteinersrock]

[quote] What are the fees to present a stallion to GOV? And what is the yearly stallion dues? Are you going to the Hassler stallion inspection? Does anybody know how many stallions will be seen at that inspection?

Thanks
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

Yes we are taking Cicera's Icewater to the Hassler Dressage inspection in MD, there ought to be at least five or so stallions presented from what I hear.

Frankly I have no head for numbers, surely the fees are available from the office, http://www.oldenburghorse.com/Oldbrg-Introduction.htm

Anna

[misita]

Yes. The fees are available from the office but they are closed for the weekend and their site does not tell the stallion inspection fees or their yearly fees. Does anyone know? I also have not been able to find it in their breeding book.

Good luck to you and Cicera's Icewater at the Hassler inspections. I hope you do well. Your stallions are lovely and your artwork breathtaking!

Thank you,
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[eurofoal]

[QUOTE=misita;2762926]Yes. The fees are available from the office but they are closed for the weekend and their site does not tell the stallion inspection fees or their yearly fees. Does anyone know? I also have not been able to find it in their breeding book.

QUOTE]


I'd like to know the fees just for registering a foal.

[clint]

I think we could have a fun lottery, and make some lucky person rich, selling possible dates for an answer to that question.:D It took me oh, about two months, to find out eligibility for a mare, and I'm still lacking part of the information. I think I asked in March? (2007)

[misita]

JIll, I'm so happy your family and home is intact after the fire. And obviously full of spit and vinegar. What wonderful news!!!:):D:lol:.

And Clint. So nice to hear from you too.:)

GOV has changed their colors!!! I'm positive! Let's give them a chance. They may surprize you all. I've been talking with Holly for awhile now and she always contacts me right away. The only reason I'm asking this questin about stallion fees here is I have a time sensitive question which I need answered and they're closed for the weekend.

So if any one knows. WHAT is the stallion Inspection fee??? AND...what is the stallion yearly fee???? I would really like to know??

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[DownYonder]

Here is the information I have:

MARES
$150.00 - Initial inspection, enrollment in studbooks, DNA testing
$15.00 - Pedigree research for Jockey Club mares (if less than 5-generation pedigree presented at inspection)

FOALS
$250.00 - Inspection, registration, microchip, DNA testing (includes annual mare fee)
$300.00 - Yearling inspection, registration, microchip, DNA testing
$300.00 - Birth Certificate (for foals not eligible for regular registration papers)
$100.00 - Breeding allowance (for sires not on Oldenburg active stallion roster for year of breeding)

STALLIONS
$250.00 - Inspection fee
$200.00 - Stallion registration & DNA testing (young stallions)
$300.00 - Stallion registration & DNA testing (older stallions)
$300.00 - Annual stallion activation fee (if activated before May 1)
$400.00 - Annual stallion activation fee (if activated after May 1)

SERVICES
$30.00 - Incomplete paperwork fee
$40.00 - Transfer of ownership
$100.00 - Re-issue of lost registration papers May 1)

[DownYonder]

Also, I will not deny that it is hard to get hold of Holly. She spent a lot of time on the road this past year going to inspection sites because the inspector they had hired - Karsten Kuehl - is being prevented by ISR from working in N.A.

Holly did have someone else in the office most of the summer to take phone calls and handle some paperwork issues, but she is a trainee, so there is a lot she still doesn't know how to do. She is gone now for several months, but will be back early next year. Another part of the problem is that the registry has grown enormously, esp. these past two years, which of course generates more work for the office staff. They are working on all these issues but change doesn't happen overnight. It takes time to get approval to hire a new person, find the right person, train that person, etc.

[carosello]

Here is the information I have:

MARES
$150.00 - Initial inspection, enrollment in studbooks, DNA testing
$15.00 - Pedigree research for Jockey Club mares (if less than 5-generation pedigree presented at inspection)

FOALS
$250.00 - Inspection, registration, microchip, DNA testing (includes annual mare fee)
$300.00 - Yearling inspection, registration, microchip, DNA testing
$300.00 - Birth Certificate (for foals not eligible for regular registration papers)
$100.00 - Breeding allowance (for sires not on Oldenburg active stallion roster for year of breeding)

STALLIONS
$250.00 - Inspection fee
$200.00 - Stallion registration & DNA testing (young stallions)
$300.00 - Stallion registration & DNA testing (older stallions)
$300.00 - Annual stallion activation fee (if activated before May 1)
$400.00 - Annual stallion activation fee (if activated after May 1)

SERVICES
$30.00 - Incomplete paperwork fee
$40.00 - Transfer of ownership
$100.00 - Re-issue of lost registration papers May 1)


Also Membership for 2008 is only $65 if paid before Nov 30th 2007. After that it is $100.

[ise@ssl]

I swore I wouldn't step into this but DownYonder posts the following:

" Karsten Kuehl - is being prevented by ISR from working in N.A.".

Mr. Kuehl is an ADULT. When he was hired by the ISR/OLDNA he signed a CONTRACT voluntarily as a condition of hire. The contract contained a no-compete clause. He was consciously aware of that when he decided to take a job with the GOV. The non-compete clause was enforced by the ISR/OLDNA. Unfortunately he DID NOT TELL the GOV he had this restriction and allowed them to schedule him for inspections in North America KNOWING he could not serve in that capacity in 2007. The no-compete does not run for much longer.


Every breeder has the free choice to work with the registries they want to work with. I register ALL my horses and ponies through the ISR/OLDNA and do serve on their Advisory Board. I do so because they offer my breeding program what I want. I did work with another registry for some of my horses in the past but the rules seemed to change yearly and I didn't agree with the goals.

The ISR/OLDNA is:
1. A U.S. non-profit corporation
2. All the funds going into this corporation are held in U.S. BANKS. The money stays here.
3. It files State and Federal Tax return based on audited financial statements every year on a timely basis.
4. The Rules and Regulations are provided in writing. And any changes in the rules are NOT retro-active to prior years to avoid placing negative financial implications on breeders.
5. The standards are what I expect in a sporthorse registry and are on par with those in Europe. The scoring system is reviewed yearly to assess if minimum scores should be increased and/or changed.
6. It has a very large stallion book to pick from and all scores for stallions from their testing and licensing are made public.
7. All foals are inspected and scored and the scores are published yearly
8. The Star programs for Stallions and Mares offers incentives to breeders and recognition to the horses that achieve these awards
9. The registry focuces SOLELY on serving North American breeders.
10. It created and financially supports the North American Breeder Futurity
11. While the goals are always to breed horses for the top levels of disciplines, the registry has a clear understanding and ongoing commitment to the largest segment of our industry - the Amateur Owners and Riders.
12. The registry has a clear and ongoing understanding that the Hunter discipline exists in North America (and not in Europe) and is an important part of our target market in our breeding programs.
13. The registry works very hard to balance services against the cost to each member. Decisions regarding the cost to implement changes to websites or newsletters are ALWAYS balanced against whether this will require increased fees to our members. And are they justified.
14. Years ago the Registry worked very hard to raise the standard of service in the office so that members were getting prompt response to inquiries and that paperwork was turned around quickly. The registry considers Customer Service to be the most important focus for this registry.
15. The registry saw the need to expand and add a Sportpony division and did.
16. Every board meeting includes discussion on what services and programs should be considere to expand the registry.


I've worked with other registries and realize that my choice fits my program but might not fit what other people need. The financial side is important to me - because I worked in the financial world and require that in any organization I work with. We all have huge investment of not only time and emotion but also MONEY in our breeding programs regardless of size. I want to know the organization will continue to be HERE in North America to serve my investment. I don't want the possibility to exist that decisions in Europe could negatively impact years of work and huge investment of time and money in my business or worse have someone pull the plug and leave me stranded with NO organization.

I just wish this constant mud-slinging would stop. Denegrating another registry for whatever reason - doesn't help the industry in general. With the Euro/dollar exchange as it is - and the VAT in Germany now at 19% - we are all poised in a much stronger financial situation to SELL OUR HOMEBRED HORSES TO BUYERS HERE. The cost of not only buying a horse/pony in Europe is a very costly situation and shipping is also being hammered by the exchange rate. Ponies I purchased over a year ago in Westfalia are shipping in now - the cost of the shipping is staggering.

The more we cat-fight here - the better it is for the people in Europe selling horses.

I KNOW we are breeding foals that are comparable in quality to Europe. Our mare base is is now close to being on par as well. We are seeing more and more home-bred stallions that offer breeders here the bloodlines and quality of Europe. We are now only being held back by our horrible lack of young horse trainers. We are seeing more and more upper level riders considering and buying North American bred horses for the Young Horse Championships and those horses are moving up the ranks.

Why keep this wash woman argument going about the ISR/OLDNA and GOV? It's like shooting yourself in the foot. If you don't like a registry - DON'T WORK WITH IT.

Chris - honestly it's time to let this go.

[STF]

To the OP -

I only got into breeding and registry stuff in the last 5 yrs. I swore I would not do it, but....... now Im hooked.

As for registires, I have now dealt with almost every single one of them and this is what I can say.
1) There are good and BAD horses in every single one of them. None are a super elite of the best of the best, etc, etc, yaddy, yaddy.....
2) All have their own issues and polotics
3) Some have more strict rules than others but its not always a BAD thing that this is in place
4) In the long run you have to find what works easy for you. Breeding is an expensive and time consuming hobby/job/habit. You have to find what will work for you and your needs. As in distance to inspections, dues due for year, mares that they will accept based on what you can afford to buy, etc, etc.
But in short, there are super horses in each. Even the AWS, yes.... I said American Warmblood Society had horses placing at the top of the charts this year, no matter what the stigma is behind everyone thoughts on how "bad" that registry is as well.

In short, just know your horses/bloodlines/type and deal with the registry that is the easiest for you.

[Oakstable]

ILona, that's an impressive list.

The organization has come a long way and as I said in some thread, maybe this one, it has become the umbrella organization for the US given the sheer number of stallions available across a wide spectrum of bloodlines.

Transparency is important. So is being a member-based organization.

I don't have any horses in the ISR at this time.

The mud slinging is a distraction and hurts both organizations. I think many people have moved on, but then some newbie will ask about the difference and it starts another thread.

[Sonesta]

The mud slinging is a distraction and hurts both organizations. I think many people have moved on, but then some newbie will ask about the difference and it starts another thread.

Maybe we should put together a short position paper - one from both sides - and have a link to it that when this issue comes up by a newbie, we can just refer them to read the position of each side and not have a new trainwreck each time.

I vote for Ilona to write ISR side and Chris to write GOV side.

[tri]

Ilona, I don't think anyone here has said that the ISR/oldna isn't an organized & strong organization. As I said, it "could" have been THE American registry. But, instead, you guys cut off your nose to spite your face by hanging onto the "oldenburg" name/brand.

You can not deny that the decision to do so has left a considerable bad taste in many breeders mouths - many who were NOT oldenburg breeders - just outside, looking in and said thanks but no thanks.

Your argue to just let it go and, for the most part it has. But, until your organization gives up that Oldenburg designation, they never will be what they could have become. The potential of being THE American registry with an American brand and image is HUGE. Imagine being the head of a registry ranked in the WBFSH pulling the entire U.S. sporthorse industry together and competing head to head against all the other WBFSH ranked studbooks on a worldwide basis.

You guys missed the boat.

[ise@ssl]

Tri - I won't debate an opinion. It's your opinion - I don't share it.

[YankeeLawyer]

With the Euro/dollar exchange as it is - and the VAT in Germany now at 19% - we are all poised in a much stronger financial situation to SELL OUR HOMEBRED HORSES TO BUYERS HERE. The cost of not only buying a horse/pony in Europe is a very costly situation and shipping is also being hammered by the exchange rate. Ponies I purchased over a year ago in Westfalia are shipping in now - the cost of the shipping is staggering.
.

Wouldn't a US buyer get the VAT back upon importation to the US? Regardless, it is exorbitantly expensive to purchase abroad, no doubt (it was 10K in shipping fees and quarantine to import a mare recently). But I am just curious about the VAT issue.

[DownYonder]

Mr. Kuehl is an ADULT. When he was hired by the ISR/OLDNA he signed a CONTRACT voluntarily as a condition of hire. The contract contained a no-compete clause. He was consciously aware of that when he decided to take a job with the GOV. The non-compete clause was enforced by the ISR/OLDNA. Unfortunately he DID NOT TELL the GOV he had this restriction and allowed them to schedule him for inspections in North America KNOWING he could not serve in that capacity in 2007. The no-compete does not run for much longer.

As usual, there is more to the story than either you or I are posting here. However, I am wondering - are you saying that ISR is going to let Kuehl work for the Verband in North America after 2007? Are you promising that ISR will take no further legal action against Kuehl or anyone else if he works here?

[ise@ssl]

Chris - give it up - really - you keep saying you don't represent the Verband. The issue is a personnel issue for the Verband. Let them handle it.
I'm done.

[YankeeLawyer]

Chris - give it up - really - you keep saying you don't represent the Verband. The issue is a personnel issue for the Verband. Let them handle it.
I'm done.

So I guess the answer is no?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Also, I will not deny that it is hard to get hold of Holly. She spent a lot of time on the road this past year going to inspection sites because the inspector they had hired - Karsten Kuehl - is being prevented by ISR from working in N.A.

Holly did have someone else in the office most of the summer to take phone calls and handle some paperwork issues, but she is a trainee, so there is a lot she still doesn't know how to do. She is gone now for several months, but will be back early next year. Another part of the problem is that the registry has grown enormously, esp. these past two years, which of course generates more work for the office staff. They are working on all these issues but change doesn't happen overnight. It takes time to get approval to hire a new person, find the right person, train that person, etc.

I don't think something like this needs to take more than about 24 hours to solve. Anyone out of town is probably staying at night in a room with a phone line. A laptop can be purchased in less than 24 hours. If you are running a registry, you need to respond quickly, period.

I am only running a small farm, and I answer calls and emails on my vacation, as well as from the hotel at Devon. Even if new office staff does not know ANY answers, it is easy to teach someone to dial a phone, or hit reply in an email saying, "We well get back to you in 2 days, or next week."

[Cartier]

I swore I wouldn't step into this but DownYonder posts the following:

" Karsten Kuehl - is being prevented by ISR from working in N.A.".

Mr. Kuehl is an ADULT. When he was hired by the ISR/OLDNA he signed a CONTRACT voluntarily as a condition of hire. The contract contained a no-compete clause. He was consciously aware of that when he decided to take a job with the GOV. The non-compete clause was enforced by the ISR/OLDNA. Unfortunately he DID NOT TELL the GOV he had this restriction and allowed them to schedule him for inspections in North America KNOWING he could not serve in that capacity in 2007. The no-compete does not run for much longer.


Every breeder has the free choice to work with the registries they want to work with. I register ALL my horses and ponies through the ISR/OLDNA and do serve on their Advisory Board. I do so because they offer my breeding program what I want. I did work with another registry for some of my horses in the past but the rules seemed to change yearly and I didn't agree with the goals.

The ISR/OLDNA is:
1. A U.S. non-profit corporation
2. All the funds going into this corporation are held in U.S. BANKS. The money stays here.
3. It files State and Federal Tax return based on audited financial statements every year on a timely basis.
4. The Rules and Regulations are provided in writing. And any changes in the rules are NOT retro-active to prior years to avoid placing negative financial implications on breeders.
5. The standards are what I expect in a sporthorse registry and are on par with those in Europe. The scoring system is reviewed yearly to assess if minimum scores should be increased and/or changed.
6. It has a very large stallion book to pick from and all scores for stallions from their testing and licensing are made public.
7. All foals are inspected and scored and the scores are published yearly
8. The Star programs for Stallions and Mares offers incentives to breeders and recognition to the horses that achieve these awards
9. The registry focuces SOLELY on serving North American breeders.
10. It created and financially supports the North American Breeder Futurity
11. While the goals are always to breed horses for the top levels of disciplines, the registry has a clear understanding and ongoing commitment to the largest segment of our industry - the Amateur Owners and Riders.
12. The registry has a clear and ongoing understanding that the Hunter discipline exists in North America (and not in Europe) and is an important part of our target market in our breeding programs.
13. The registry works very hard to balance services against the cost to each member. Decisions regarding the cost to implement changes to websites or newsletters are ALWAYS balanced against whether this will require increased fees to our members. And are they justified.
14. Years ago the Registry worked very hard to raise the standard of service in the office so that members were getting prompt response to inquiries and that paperwork was turned around quickly. The registry considers Customer Service to be the most important focus for this registry.
15. The registry saw the need to expand and add a Sportpony division and did.
16. Every board meeting includes discussion on what services and programs should be considere to expand the registry.


I've worked with other registries and realize that my choice fits my program but might not fit what other people need. The financial side is important to me - because I worked in the financial world and require that in any organization I work with. We all have huge investment of not only time and emotion but also MONEY in our breeding programs regardless of size. I want to know the organization will continue to be HERE in North America to serve my investment. I don't want the possibility to exist that decisions in Europe could negatively impact years of work and huge investment of time and money in my business or worse have someone pull the plug and leave me stranded with NO organization.

I just wish this constant mud-slinging would stop. Denegrating another registry for whatever reason - doesn't help the industry in general. With the Euro/dollar exchange as it is - and the VAT in Germany now at 19% - we are all poised in a much stronger financial situation to SELL OUR HOMEBRED HORSES TO BUYERS HERE. The cost of not only buying a horse/pony in Europe is a very costly situation and shipping is also being hammered by the exchange rate. Ponies I purchased over a year ago in Westfalia are shipping in now - the cost of the shipping is staggering.

The more we cat-fight here - the better it is for the people in Europe selling horses.

I KNOW we are breeding foals that are comparable in quality to Europe. Our mare base is is now close to being on par as well. We are seeing more and more home-bred stallions that offer breeders here the bloodlines and quality of Europe. We are now only being held back by our horrible lack of young horse trainers. We are seeing more and more upper level riders considering and buying North American bred horses for the Young Horse Championships and those horses are moving up the ranks.

Why keep this wash woman argument going about the ISR/OLDNA and GOV? It's like shooting yourself in the foot. If you don't like a registry - DON'T WORK WITH IT.

Chris - honestly it's time to let this go.

Excellent post Ilona...

and of course there was a no compete clause... which any business would enforce. The only point I’d add is that while Karsten Kuehl was the Breeding Director for Oldenburg Registry North American some vocal GOV supporters ran with the message that Old NA inspectors weren’t good enough for the GOV. Truth is Dr. Kuehl worked for the GOV before and after he worked for Old NA. The GOV hiring Dr. Karsten Kuehl (both before he was the Old NA Breeding Director and after) puts into perspective how idiotic this back stabbing is.

It is not disputable that the Old NA is the oldest Oldenburg Registry in the USA, it was founded because the GOV freely chose to come here and guide American breeders to produce O and Crown branded Oldenburgs (just like a marketing agreement allowing Hondas to be assembled here, they are still Hondas, and the market value of the vehicle is grounded in the brand recognition). The Old Registry North America has continuously used well qualified inspectors to evaluate the Oldenburgs in their registry. To argue otherwise is absurd.

We can move forward to benefit all American Oldenburg Breeders.

[Oakstable]

I did a Q&A article with Holly for the Riding magazine in California. She was on tour and trying to get back to me from various time zones in locales with no internet connection. It's nuts. I hope she doesn't have a stroke or a heart attack with the hours she puts in.

The Verband needs to hire someone to handle the nuts and bolts of registering and not get by on the cheap. The person does not need to be conversant in bloodlines.

[Iron Horse Farm]

Thanks for everyone who replied with answers to my questions. One more? Are there other registries (GOV, Han. KWPN or NAWPN) that inspect 1/2 drafts and QHs for a lower book or a lower registry like NA has ISR?

[tri]

"(just like a marketing agreement allowing Hondas to be assembled here, they are still Hondas,"

Only as long as there is an agreement! Once there is no agreement, it isn't "Honda" anymore and Honda would have squashed anyone trying to put "Honda" on anything other than someone authorized by Honda, squashed them like a bug.

BTW, non-competes are extremely hard to enforce in court - right to work and all that.

[talloaks]

Thanks for everyone who replied with answers to my questions. One more? Are there other registries (GOV, Han. KWPN or NAWPN) that inspect 1/2 drafts and QHs for a lower book or a lower registry like NA has ISR?


I'd like to make one thing clear about the AQHA mare who was inspected at the Chestnut Lawn Farm inspection and recieved a score of 103 and was put into the pre mare book. Now I don't know if mares producing pony foals are in a separate book or not. This mare had a power package premium colt by Forrest Flame who was the real hit of the inspection. Perhaps some of you pony breeders would know if the pony producers have a separate book from ISR pre mare book mares.

[misita]

Thank you DownYonder and Carosello for your information on the fees. I have been working with Holly in hopes of having my stallion approved with GOV and she has been very informtive and helpfull with me. She is very sweet and trying to meet all our needs. I'm sure if she's not contacting you right away it's a lack of communication because of her travels. I do believe a good way to deal with this is simply explain to the GOV's, they need to update their communication. I think they're trying very hard to be more NA user friendly.

As far as the huge O brand fight, I can't understand that either. ISR/OLD NA is branding their horses with the O, and crown, and NA on the sides. The German brand is simply O with a crown. They're already different brands. O, crown, NA for North America, and O, with a crown, for the German bred or GOV horses. This seems so simple to me..

And one more thing. most of my mares are hanoverian. They have the Han brand. But the foals I have registered with them, Have a H, US, brand on their butt!

And I do understand why there's the huge fight about the brand because the forlks who are buying my foals want a brand, either Hann or ISR/Old, which are who I deal with now. If they're older horses already under saddle, they aren't as concerned. But people buying babies are very concerned with bloodlines, inspection status, registry, and brands.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[Oakstable]

I've seen some non sporthorse mares inspected by Dr. Vollstedt at GOV inspections, and they got C of P papers on the foals.

Some of the foals were Premium quality but lacked pedigree.

ISR = certificate of pedigree, and I think all the major warmblood registeries in the US have that category.

[Oakstable]

Chris,
GOV does not brand if that is an issue with your buyers.

Brands don't last anyway.

[talloaks]

ISR = certificate of pedigree, and I think all the major warmblood registeries in the US have that category.


I think this is misinformation, Oakstable. ISR/OLDNA offers a Certificate of Birth as the lowest offering. No brand and not elibible for any mare books if a filly.

[misita]

Chris,
GOV does not brand if that is an issue with your buyers.

Brands don't last anyway.


No. GOV does not brand. But ISR/OLD does.

[YankeeLawyer]

I don't think something like this needs to take more than about 24 hours to solve. Anyone out of town is probably staying at night in a room with a phone line. A laptop can be purchased in less than 24 hours. If you are running a registry, you need to respond quickly, period.

I am only running a small farm, and I answer calls and emails on my vacation, as well as from the hotel at Devon. Even if new office staff does not know ANY answers, it is easy to teach someone to dial a phone, or hit reply in an email saying, "We well get back to you in 2 days, or next week."

Blackberries are great, also, for people on the go.

[Oakstable]

I think this is misinformation, Oakstable. ISR/OLDNA offers a Certificate of Birth as the lowest offering. No brand and not elibible for any mare books if a filly.

I don't understand your point, Talloaks.

I said going into the ISR book means the horse got a certificate of pedigree.

This has nothing to do with Mare Book or Main Mare Book.

A C of P is what you claim is the pedigree, or in the case of the Dutch, you verify with DNA testing that the horse is by a certain activated stallion.

[tri]

"The German brand is simply O with a crown. They're already differnet brands. O, crown, NA for North America, and O, with a crown, for the German bred or GOV horses. This seems so simple to me.."

Except that the ISR took the Oldenburg Verband to court trying to prevent them from using just their own O & crown....and they won. The ONLY reason the Oldenburg Verband CAN NOT use their own O & crown brand here in the U.S. is because of the ISR's lawsuit against them.

Everywhere in the world the O & crown means the Oldenburg Verband....except for the U.S. Regardless of what went on initially, there is a huge sense of foul play surrounding what the ISR did.

[Foxtrot's]

For how many years do bad feelings have to fester? It seems to me it is time to give it up and move on constructively for the betterment of breeders all over - with whichever registry fits you. There is no one-size-fits-all. Bad feelings and grudges are popping up all over this thread. (Yet I keep reading it, poor stupid me.)

[Cartier]

... Regardless of what went on initially, there is a huge sense of foul play surrounding what the ISR did.

This characterization of the dispute has swirled round for years. It is false and obscures what actually happened. We all know where it comes from (from whom it comes), and, absent any other facts, many people believe it. We believed it too until we took the time to read court documents. Rather than rely upon self-serving gossip ... read the actual July 2000 Court FINAL ORDER and decide for yourself what actually happened. The court decision conveys the entire history of the dispute and the facts, not gossip. Any impartial observer reading the courts final decision will quickly see that the plaintiff Oldenburg Registry North America (a.k.a. ISR Old/ NA) acted honorably throughout the litigation. I’d be hard pressed to characterize the defendant’s conduct so positively. Essentially, the GOV tried to pull the rug out from under Old NA after a decade of branding and inspecting here in the USA. In response Old NA said, “NO, we’re holding you [GOV] to the agreement you signed.” At that point in time Dr. Ramsauer was the Breeding Director for Old NA. The dispute wasn’t about how horses were being entered in the registry, because the Breeding Director entering the horses in the registry was Dr. Ramseur, and through out the dispute the GOV stuck with Dr. Ramsauer... even started two new registries here in the USA with Dr. Ramsauer (which the Court ordered stopped). This dispute was essentially a petty little pissing contest fought in our market place. The defendant GOV deservedly lost because of the facts and the applicable law, not because of some legal slight of hand. The defendant owes American breeders an apology for creating this mess in our market place and for fueling bad feelings between American Oldenburg Breeders for the past ten years. This controversy does not serve American breeders, it undermines the value of what we are breeding and drives people to the imports.

[DownYonder]

So I guess the answer is no?

Bingo!

ISR has made it clear to the Verband that it intends to pursue additional legal action if Kuehl ever works for the Verband in the U.S.

[Cartier]

Bingo!

ISR has made it clear to the Verband that it intends to pursue additional legal action if Kuehl ever works for the Verband in the U.S.

We think very highly of Dr. Kuehl and wish him the very best for has future, whatever it may be... but of course there was a no compete clause in his contract. It is normal for businesses to have such clauses and entirely routine for professionals to be held to the terms of the contracts they sign.

[talloaks]

I don't understand your point, Talloaks.

I said going into the ISR book means the horse got a certificate of pedigree.

This has nothing to do with Mare Book or Main Mare Book.

A C of P is what you claim is the pedigree, or in the case of the Dutch, you verify with DNA testing that the horse is by a certain activated stallion.


Oakstable, check out this link from the ISR/OLDNA website and it is clear about the Certificate of Pedigree:

http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=foals_eligibility

[graystonefarm]

With all of the legalities aside, what it comes down to is honor and integrity. Many breeders (mare owners and stallion owners alike) still refuse to do business with the Old NA/ISR because they "stole" the Oldenburg brand.

Lets put it this way. Let's say that the American QH had a brand and you bred American QHs. Imagine that your brick driveway displayed that symbol and that symbol was on the side of your home and displayed on the outside and inside walls of your stable and on your horses' stalls. How would you feel if the Germans "stole" the American Quarterhorse name and brand claimed it as their own? You will only feel their true "pain" and frustration if go to Gemany and meet them in person and see that it is a part of their heritage.

The only reason the ISR won the lawsuit is because they patented the name and brand here first. Don't let Cartier cloud the issues. Some say it's just business, however, for those that KNOW the true facts, what is all boils down to is ethics and how far are you willing go for the all mighty dollar.

[YankeeLawyer]

I did a Q&A article with Holly for the Riding magazine in California. She was on tour and trying to get back to me from various time zones in locales with no internet connection. It's nuts. I hope she doesn't have a stroke or a heart attack with the hours she puts in.

The Verband needs to hire someone to handle the nuts and bolts of registering and not get by on the cheap. The person does not need to be conversant in bloodlines.

Just a small suggestion from someone who also has a nutty schedule and travels to odd places -- Verizon has a nationwide wireless internet service that works almost everywhere -- you can get it built in on a new laptop or get a Verizon card to insert into older computers. I have it and it even worked in Greece this year. It also works on my farm, which is saying a lot because we are in the sticks and you can't get DSL or anything like that where I am. It is great because you can literally be anywhere -- on a train, in a cafe, etc -- and have wireless internet.

And I agree that they need to hire an additional person, or train the ones they have in the office.

[YankeeLawyer]

Bingo!

ISR has made it clear to the Verband that it intends to pursue additional legal action if Kuehl ever works for the Verband in the U.S.

This is not legal advice but IME non-compete clauses that purport to operate indefinitely tend to be disfavored by judges. In other words, a one year or two year non-compete clause is one thing, but a "forever" non-compete clause is far less likely to be enforceable. Also, I believe that in some states, non-compete clauses are void and thus not enforceable at all (I think that is so in California, for example, but someone would have to verify that). So, this gentleman should look into his options.

[graystonefarm]

Also, I believe that in some states, non-compete clauses are void and thus not enforceable at all (I think that is so in California, for example, but someone would have to verify that). So, this gentleman should look into his options.

It was looked into but unfortunately it was upheld by the court. From what ISE said earlier, it sounds like that the clause is not indefinite.

[YankeeLawyer]

The only reason the ISR won the lawsuit is because they patented the name and brand here first.

I need to pull the court's opinion but this is what I don't get about this case. Under trademark law, the one who has use first in time prevails over a subsequent user, even if the subsequent (i.e., later in time) user actually registered the mark (trademark) first. It seems to me that as the first in time user, the German Verband should have been able to get an injunction on the Old NA's use of the mark based on consumer confusion. I will look at the opinion, which I have not seen yet, but based on what I do know about the case I find it surprising that Old NA won regarding use of the mark.

I also think it is stinky (a legal term of art, btw) that both registries cannot brand using the crown in the US.

[YankeeLawyer]

The only reason the ISR won the lawsuit is because they patented the name and brand here first. Don't let Cartier cloud the issues. Some say it's just business, however, for those that KNOW the true facts, what is all boils down to is ethics and how far are you willing go for the all mighty dollar.

Regarding all this noncompete stuff including the fight over the use of the mark, I question whether being so proprietary was a good business decision in this case. It seems like it created a lot of ill feelings between the registries' members and I don't see how either one is doing better because of it.

[PineTreeFarm]

This is not legal advice but IME non-compete clauses that purport to operate indefinitely tend to be disfavored by judges. In other words, a one year or two year non-compete clause is one thing, but a "forever" non-compete clause is far less likely to be enforceable. Also, I believe that in some states, non-compete clauses are void and thus not enforceable at all (I think that is so in California, for example, but someone would have to verify that). So, this gentleman should look into his options.

Yes indeed. I had to sign a very broad one to get severance pay when my previous employer closed their US operation. The non compete time frame was longer than the severance pay time frame and the prohibited activities covered almost anything I was qualified for. They retained other business interests in the US and the clause was to protect the 'sister' companies.
The only state the agreement is valid in is IL. Not valid in NY, VA or CA.
Probably valid in the parent company's home country but who cares.
Employer was given a choice, pay me for the extended time frame or reduce the non compete time frame to match the severance pay period.
Your mileage will vary depending on the contract.

[graystonefarm]

Yankeelawyer, I agree 100%. It has harmed both registries and caused so much confusion. It's very unfortunate for American breeders. I have friends on both "sides" of the fence. As I said above, it doesn't truly "hit" you in the stomach until you go to Oldenburg and see it for yourself.

[Oakstable]

Regarding all this noncompete stuff including the fight over the use of the mark, I question whether being so proprietary was a good business decision in this case. It seems like it created a lot of ill feelings between the registries' members and I don't see how either one is doing better because of it.

I totally agree with you, Yankeelawyer.

We can't get any reliable news on what has happened to all the equine operations in SoCal, but we rehash this OLD matter.

The fact the the former breeding director of the ISR was going to be a judge for the GOV this past year shows how ridiculous this spitting match is.

[Cartier]

With all of the legalities aside, what it comes down to is honor and integrity. Many breeders (mare owners and stallion owners alike) still refuse to do business with the Old NA/ISR because they "stole" the Oldenburg brand.

Lets put it this way. Let's say that the American QH had a brand and you bred American QHs. Imagine that your brick driveway displayed that symbol and that symbol was on the side of your home and displayed on the outside and inside walls of your stable and on your horses' stalls. How would you feel if the Germans "stole" the American Quarterhorse name and brand claimed it as their own? You will only feel their true "pain" and frustration if go to Gemany and meet them in person and see that it is a part of their heritage.

The only reason the ISR won the lawsuit is because they patented the name and brand here first. Don't let Cartier cloud the issues. Some say it's just business, however, for those that KNOW the true facts, what is all boils down to is ethics and how far are you willing go for the all mighty dollar.

Your comparison falls well short of credibility for many reasons. The American Quarter Horse is a breed and not subject to the approval of inspectors. But using your flawed analogy, the AQHA did not go to Germany, sign a licensing agreement with Germans to breed America Quarter Horses in Germany... allow them to do so for a decade, involving 3-5 generations and then try to evade abiding by the agreement they signed and the consequences of the decisions made in their name.

You can't take a brand off of a horse. American breeders who paid for the right to the O and Crown brand on their Oldenburg horses have as much right to that brand as any German breeder because the GOV gave us that right. The GOV came here to the USA and encouraged us to breed O and Crown branded Oldenburg horses, investing lots of money in these bloodlines, stallions, mares foals, breeding programs. i.e., in these businesses, so we could essentially produce more income for the GOV. American breeders paid for the right to use the O and Crown brand. I have no sympathy what-so-ever for the GOV not making as much off of American Breeders as they originally intended. The GOV has put very very little into breeding in this country. The GOV seems to simply want to take from us. By all accounts, the GOV operates in the USA out of someone's Condo bedroom in Florida and has a "staff" of one, who is almost impossible to get a hold of. Not saying that a bedroom operation is a bad thing, but the GOV can do better. American breeders deserve better.

Before I go to Germany and see all their pain and tears, I can simply look around here is the USA and see what all these shenanigans have done to our market place. The tears I cry are for American Oldenburg breeders who have had to put up with this baloney for the past ten years.

Graystone’s example doesn’t fly because no one stole anything. The GOV came here to this country of their own free will and said “You American Oldenburg breeders can breed Oldenburg horses here in the USA under our guidance and we will allow you to use the O and Crown brand. And, of course, we will charge you for this.” American breeders acted honorably, the Old NA acted honorably... it was the GOV that did not. And nothing Old NA has done in the USA has anything what-so-ever to do with whether some German breeder has the O and Crown emblazoned on her driveway, her forehead or anywhere else she might like to stick it.
__________________

[DownYonder]

This is not legal advice but IME non-compete clauses that purport to operate indefinitely tend to be disfavored by judges. In other words, a one year or two year non-compete clause is one thing, but a "forever" non-compete clause is far less likely to be enforceable. Also, I believe that in some states, non-compete clauses are void and thus not enforceable at all (I think that is so in California, for example, but someone would have to verify that). So, this gentleman should look into his options.

It's not a non-compete clause that is the problem. Actually, there is some discrepancy as to whether there actually was a non-compete clause at all - one side says yes, the other side says no.

However, the more onerous problem is the fact that ISR owns the mark in the U.S. and has threatened to take protectionist action.

One has to wonder why an organization with such a long list of accomplishments and benefits feels it can't survive without the Oldenburg name and brand, and especially why it feels it can't survive if its former breeding director is allowed to work in North America for a different registry. Talk about insecurity! :lol:

[Edgar]

"why it feels it can't survive if its former breeding director is allowed to work in North America for a different registry."

That is not a very bright comment in light of the fact that their former director is the one who messed things up so horrobly that both parties can not overcome their differences still. It also seems obvious that the management of the ISR/OLNA is thinking ahead and applying protective measures to help them stay in business. Karsten using the goodwill he created while touring for years with the ISR, now for GOV would be in direct competition. As for owning the trademark that the ISR developed in the US for 15 years prior to this being a problem, it also has helped them continue their business as they have in the past years. Whether you like it or not it was done completely legal according to everyday business in the US.

Karsten is a great guy as are many people involved with either registry Holly, Evelyn etc.Evelyn and Karsten went to school together and have known each other for a long time. Some people within the registies know the facts and can actually discuss them in a normal matter however if posted here it only causes arguments. What is the point. Working together would be great but for now it seems that both are functioning well the way they choose to and breeders have a choice.

[graystonefarm]

American breeders paid for the right to use the O and Crown brand. I have no sympathy what-so-ever for the GOV not making as much off of American Breeders as they originally intended.... American breeders deserve better.

Before I go to Germany and see all their pain and tears, I can simply look around here is the USA and see what all these shenanigans have done to our market place. The tears I cry are for American Oldenburg breeders who have had to put up with this baloney for the past ten years.

I believe my point has just been proven so I think the following is worth repeating. :D

Some say it's just business, however, for those that KNOW the true facts, what is all boils down to is ethics and how far are you willing go for the all mighty dollar.

Why should you care who you hurt? Because it's all about you, right? ;) Screw everyone else because it's the "American" way? :no:

Wanna know who wins the lawsuits the majority of the time? The one with the most money and the best lawyers!

[DownYonder]

"why it feels it can't survive if its former breeding director is allowed to work in North America for a different registry."

That is not a very bright comment in light of the fact that their former director is the one who messed things up so horrobly that both parties can not overcome their differences still.

Uh, the former breeding director I was referring to IS Karsten Kuehl, not the guy who caused many of the previous problems. And, as you just stated, I think everyone is agreed that Karsten is a great guy.

As far as ISR developing the trademark for 15 years - don't you think that the international reputation of the Oldenburg Verband had something to do with that? If Oldenburg wasn't such a well-known and successful breeding organization, would ISR have become as large as it is? I think most folks realize that ISR's capitalizing on the Oldenburg name and brand is what enabled it to grow so much.

[graystonefarm]

What is the point. Working together would be great but for now it seems that both are functioning well the way they choose to and breeders have a choice.

Both registries are functioning very well, however, there will always be confusion in connection with the two different Oldenburg registries here in NA so there will always be questions and discussions on this topic. The point here in discussing it is that people gain knowledge. ;)

[Oakstable]

I don't think the reputation of the Oldenburg Verband had that much to do with the success of ISR. It was launched early on in the evolution of sporthorse breeding in the US. It could have been Meckelburgs, or any other breeding region, we didn't know. That time was before the internet, web sites, and forums.

I bred to First Class twice in the early '90s. When he died, I said to one of my breeding buddies, "I didn't know he was a Bunde champion." She said neither did I, but in those days it wouldn't have meant much.

I bred my first wb in 1988 and have been active ever seen -- and across a number of registeries. I am not registry -centric. I am passionate about horses, but not about registeries.

I think the squabbling, and it appears to be squabbling to those of us who are not suited up for battle, hurts the American sporthorse breeders. It is a distraction at a time when we need to be marketing Born in America stock to up and coming riders.

I'd like to see a handful people of people with common sense, like Edgar and some others with broader perspective than just one registry, get together and work out a sensible win-win plan and all the adults have to agree to live with it.

That's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

[graystonefarm]

Sally, it will likely never happen. They've tried and could not come to an agreement. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe any American board members or officers have the ability to negotiate a resolution of any kind. It's only EB who has that authority.

Both sides were in negotiations not too long ago and the Verband was willing to buy back the brand but wanted control over the mare books because they did not want to make the same mistake twice. They wanted to make sure that the rules for the NA mare books would be the same as what they have in Germany. EB was not willing to give up the books or his positition and control over the registry so they were not able to reach an agreement.

I too wish they would come to a resolution but I can't see it ever happening. :no:

[Edgar]

"Uh, the former breeding director I was referring to IS Karsten Kuehl, not the guy who caused many of the previous problems."

yes I know that is what you meant. I am saying that the agreement (non compete) with Karsten, the new director at the time, was made a long time ago after that debacle with their prior director, so it would not happen again. That was a logical business decision on the part of ISR/Ekkehart. It prevented it from happening this time and although the situation is slightly different and Karsten seems more ethical, it has nothing to do with who was the director but everything to do with how they got to this "so far" (being positive here) unreconsilable difference which is not good for anybody.

I think often in discussing these issues fingers are pointed to the management as being evil or making poor decisions. If you look a bit further however you find that these decisions were often made with the memberships best interest in mind. Confusion exists with 2 registries registering horses of a similar breed. Discussing it only helps when it is factual and it seems in this case there is a lot of not so true information posted. I know some of the posters here were breeders and involved with both parties before the partnership unraveled. I actually met with Ramsauer and Van der Decken when they first started a verband sponsored organization in the US. It was not pretty in many way's.... Both registries have grown a lot the last 5 years.

[misita]

I am a new breeder compared with all of you. I will never forget the first time I saw a WB. I don't even know what he was registered but my jaw dropped and I couldn't believe my eyes. It was a gelding by Pointmaker and it was the most spectacular horse I had ever seen! Up until this point I had a bunch of 25+ year old geldings running around for my kids to ride forward or backward, or fall off of. But when I saw that horse, I was changed forever! I bought a mare and bred her to Frohwind. It was such an amazing experience.

Nobody can really think ISR/OLD NA will ever give the name and brand back. These horses are Oldenburgs. They were bred with approved Oldenberg stallions out of approved Oldenberg mares, by the European Oldenburg standards. The ISR/OLD NA is breeding Oldenburgs!!

What I can't understand is why they don't give the O with the crown back to the GOV?? Because they are not using it anyway! My Old NA foals are branded with the O, crown, and NA on the sides. They are different brands. My horses are bred here and are Oldenburgs of North America.

I'm sorry for my ignorance but I'm really not getting it. GOV should use the O with the crown and ISR/OLD NA should use the O with crown and NA. They are breeding NA Oldenburgs which is a American Warmblood horse.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[talloaks]

The GOV in Germany is using the O and Crown brand and all this about the brand has nothing to do with what is done in Germany. The OLDNA/ISR has the permission to use the O and crown brand in North America. No other group started by the GOV in NA has that right.

[misita]

I understand all that. But why would ISR/OLD NA be so protective over the brand O with a crown when they're not using it anyway. Wouldn't it be a great peace offering of ISR/OLD NA to just give the brand back? GOV is not going to hurt their business. The reason I turn to ISR/Old NA so much is their PR. They're fun to be around and they're very educational. They take the time to explain what they like and dislike about each foal, mare and stallion. For young breeders like me, this is very valuable.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[ise@ssl]

Wow - the longer this goes the more fiction in the posts. Amazing that people feel so comfortable stating their own interpretations or presumptions as facts as to who did what and who has the powers to do things. Amazing - really. Time does cure these wrongs but unfortunately they never get really long threads on here to get the truth out or clarify with FACTS.

Shame. Really it's just a shame. I see statements made by people who cannot possibly know what they are talking about that are false and what's worse they feel so comfortable doing this. Several posters on here repeatedly make statements which are totally counter to testimony and documentation presented to the courts. WOW! Seems like such a long and fragile branch to crawl out on.

[graystonefarm]

Wouldn't it be a great peace offering of ISR/OLD NA to just give the brand back? GOV is not going to hurt their business. The reason I turn to ISR/Old NA so much is their PR.
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net (http://www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net)

Yes, I agree, Chris! I think that would make GOV breeders very happy!

I wonder what their response will be?

Ilona, would you like to take a stab at answering? :D As Edgar said above, both registries are functioning just fine but GOV breeders would like to have their brand back. Please? :D

[misita]

You all need to get past the political part of all this. ISR/OLD NA is not going to give their brand back. Nor should they. Gov came and started the GOV. Now we have the Oldenburg Verband. Both American and Gernam sides. The American side was started 25 years ago, as was the german side. They both are legitimate German horse breeds.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[Oakstable]

Chris,
They are not breeds, they are registeries.

TBs, Arabians, and Trakehners are breeds (as are others). They are closed books, you breed a TB to a TB and you get a TB.

A warmblood is a combination of bloodlines and can be registered in one of many registeries. As the years go on, you see more and more blending of bloodlines, Hanoverians and Oldenburgs in particular.

These are geographical areas within Germany.

Imagine if you had a California registry, a Wisconsin registry, a Florida registry. The horse gets the label indicating where it was registered.

Anyone know of a link to a simple history of warmblood breeding and its evolution?

The use of AI, shipped semen and frozen semen means that bloodlines that would have been most common in one of the Germany breeding regions now show up all over Europe and even globally.

To my mind, registeries are marketing organizations. In Europe, it is extremely competitive to see whose horses rank in the top of the breeding stats.

In the US, you work with the organization(s) that fit your needs.

A specific horse might be Sandro Hit/Donnerhall/Feiner Stern and he could be registered Hanoverian, Oldenburg, RPSI, Dutch, Westphalian, and so on. Here, it could be Oldenburg NA, too.

It's the same horse, no matter how it is branded or labeled.

[DownYonder]

I don't think the reputation of the Oldenburg Verband had that much to do with the success of ISR. It was launched early on in the evolution of sporthorse breeding in the US. It could have been Meckelburgs, or any other breeding region, we didn't know. That time was before the internet, web sites, and forums.

Oh, I totally disagree with you here. Oldenburg is the 3rd largest registry in Germany and has had a very high profile on the international scene for quite a long time now, with many top winning horses. I doubt very seriously that ISR would have made the enormous strides it did without capitalizing on the Oldenburg name and brand. Mecklenburg and the other small German registries just don't have the same marketing appeal as Oldenburg. In fact, I know several breeders who live in other regions in Germany but who trailer their mares and foals to Oldenburg for approval/registration specifically because Oldenburg is a much better known organization than their home registry.

And, yes, it would be nice to have a win-win solution worked out, but I don't see how. As others have pointed out, the Verband wants control of the breeding books and wants German breeding rules followed. ISR also wants control of the breeding books and wants to follow its own rules. What compromise is possible?

[DownYonder]

The GOV in Germany is using the O and Crown brand and all this about the brand has nothing to do with what is done in Germany. The OLDNA/ISR has the permission to use the O and crown brand in North America. No other group started by the GOV in NA has that right.

Not quite. The Verband licensed ISR to run an Oldenburg studbook in N.A. Then the Verband declined to renew ISR's license. Any permission to use the Oldenburg brand expired with the license. ISR/ONA is using the brand without permission from the Verband.

[ise@ssl]

Just curious Chris - why does the German Oldenburg Verband allow the Danish Oldenburg Registry to exist automonously. GOV does NOT CONTROL this registry at all, they brand with the Danish O Crown and have existed and continue to exist with total control of their own breeding books. NO involvement or control by the GOV!

[graystonefarm]

You all need to get past the political part of all this. ISR/OLD NA is not going to give their brand back. Nor should they. Gov came and started the GOV. Now we have the Oldenburg Verband. Both American and Gernam sides. The American side was started 25 years ago, as was the german side. They both are legitimate German horse breeds.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net (http://www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net)

We don't want their brand. They can keep it. We want our own brand, namely the O with the crown.

[carosello]

By ISE Just curious Chris - why does the German Oldenburg Verband allow the Danish Oldenburg Registry to exist automonously. GOV does NOT CONTROL this registry at all, they brand with the Danish O Crown and have existed and continue to exist with total control of their own breeding books. NO involvement or control by the GOV!

As far as Im concerned I dont care if one or more group is called Oldenburg BUT the Danes did not take the brand away from the GOV in Germany so possibly that is one of many reasons they can survive close together?

[carosello]

Mista, Im not trying to single you out but are you the same person who wrote both of these? You are contradicting yourself and it makes no sense to me.


I understand all that. But why would ISR/OLD NA be so protective over the brand O with a crown when they're not using it anyway. Wouldn't it be a great peace offering of ISR/OLD NA to just give the brand back? GOV is not going to hurt their business. The reason I turn to ISR/Old NA so much is their PR. They're fun to be around and they're very educational. They take the time to explain what they like and dislike about each foal, mare and stallion. For young breeders like me, this is very valuable.www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net (http://www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net/)



You all need to get past the political part of all this. ISR/OLD NA is not going to give their brand back. Nor should they. Gov came and started the GOV. Now we have the Oldenburg Verband. Both American and Gernam sides. The American side was started 25 years ago, as was the german side. They both are legitimate German horse breeds. www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net (http://www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net/)[/FONT]

[misita]

Mista, Im not trying to single you out but are you the same person who wrote both of these? You are contradicting yourself and it makes no sense to me.

Yes and I'm sorry for the confusion. I meant by the second one that ISR shouldn't have to give the brand back because we are breeding Oldenburgs here. But I do think since ISR is using the o with the crown and NA, that it would be a nice jesture to give the o with the crown back. It seems to me they're different brands anyway. I hope that makes more sence.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[Carol Ames]

Will someone please give me a link to the "court papers"?

[flshgordon]

Yes and I'm sorry for the confusion. I meant by the second one that ISR shouldn't have to give the brand back because we are breeding Oldenburgs here. But I do think since ISR is using the o with the crown and NA, that it would be a nice jesture to give the o with the crown back. It seems to me they're different brands anyway. I hope that makes more sence.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net (http://www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net)


I agree! Wouldn't this be an easy way to solve problem? Just give the O with crown back and keep the O, crown and NA part. Wouldn't everyone be happy then?

[Fairview Horse Center]

I agree! Wouldn't this be an easy way to solve problem? Just give the O with crown back and keep the O, crown and NA part. Wouldn't everyone be happy then?

I would think so. People will still be attracted to each one for different reasons, and it would stop the hatred and emotion.

[tri]

"They were bred with approved Oldenberg stallions out of approved Oldenberg mares, by the European Oldenburg standards. The ISR/OLD NA is breeding Oldenburgs!!"

Uhmm. No they aren't being bred by the European Oldenburg standards - it says it right on the ISR website - they are using the Oldenburg name, with the Oldenburg brand BUT THEY ADMIT TO USING DIFFERENT STANDARDS, so please tell me how is that "Oldenburg"?

[KitterCritter]

It pains me to sometimes agree with tri.

When ISR is registering a foal as "Oldenburg" when both parents are TB - well, I feel sorry for the person who thinks they are purchasing a fancy "warmblood" when it is in fact a TB bred by AI and thus not eligible for JC papers, so we'll register and brand it as Oldenburg.

[talloaks]

It pains me to sometimes agree with tri.

When ISR is registering a foal as "Oldenburg" when both parents are TB - well, I feel sorry for the person who thinks they are purchasing a fancy "warmblood" when it is in fact a TB bred by AI and thus not eligible for JC papers, so we'll register and brand it as Oldenburg.


And just how many full TBs have been registered as Oldenburg??? Name one or two.

[KitterCritter]

Well, the first one I noticed was sired by Jasprin, so that goes back more than a few years. Would have to do some research to come up with the name of the "foal", but it is out there, Bernie.

Now there are the Coconut Grove and A Fine Romance offspring out of TB mares. Again, don't know the foal names off the top of my head.

I'm quite sure you can check this out on your own through ISR as you are involved with them.

People breeding TB x TB via AI have limited choices in registration - PHR or ISR are the obvious options. Think the BWP did a couple of these this year also, but may be tightening up their rules hereafter.

[clint]

It pains me to sometimes agree with tri.

When ISR is registering a foal as "Oldenburg" when both parents are TB - well, I feel sorry for the person who thinks they are purchasing a fancy "warmblood" when it is in fact a TB bred by AI and thus not eligible for JC papers, so we'll register and brand it as Oldenburg.

Are you under the impression that no other registry approves TBs? The AHS approves both mares and stallions into their registry, as does the Verband. I could take a studbook approved TB mare, breed her to Laurie's Crusader xx, and voila! a registered and branded Hanoverian who is all TB.

[KitterCritter]

Umm, Clint, run that by AHS and get back to me. Pretty sure you need one parent as Hanoverian to obtain AHS papers.

[clint]

Umm, Clint, run that by AHS and get back to me. Pretty sure you need one parent as Hanoverian to obtain AHS papers.

Oops, you are right; forgot about the 50% rule. That's what I get for running by the computer on my way out to feed.

[DownYonder]

"They were bred with approved Oldenberg stallions out of approved Oldenberg mares, by the European Oldenburg standards. The ISR/OLD NA is breeding Oldenburgs!!"

Uhmm. No they aren't being bred by the European Oldenburg standards - it says it right on the ISR website - they are using the Oldenburg name, with the Oldenburg brand BUT THEY ADMIT TO USING DIFFERENT STANDARDS, so please tell me how is that "Oldenburg"?

Kathy! We agree on something! :lol:

[elizabeth Callahan]

bernie,
I had a full TB by Jasprin out of a TB mare way back in 1994, I think. - she was branded full Old - and that was when the 2 registries were still together, and she was approved by Ramsauer. So that wasn't just ISR that approved that cross....

[talloaks]

bernie,
I had a full TB by Jasprin out of a TB mare way back in 1994, I think. - she was branded full Old - and that was when the 2 registries were still together, and she was approved by Ramsauer. So that wasn't just ISR that approved that cross....

Good grief elizabeth, I had no idea there were approved TB stallions in the registry in 1994, I thought this was something relatively new with Coconut Grove and A Fine Romance. But I guess Ramsauer did a lot of "different" things when he was the breeding director!!!:lol:

[inca]

As a member and supporter of OldNA/ISR, I will say that I also disagree with the registering of TBs as Oldenburgs. I think it would be wise of them to enact a rule that no 100% TB foal will be registered and branded. However, since there are very few foals each year that are full TB and regsitered/branded, that in and of itself is not enough to make me not use the registry. Their customer service is fantastic and the inspectors and very knowledgable and share that knowledge at the inspections.

But, not buyer would be duped about what they are actually buying if they ask to see the papers/bloodlines before purchasing a horse. When every single horse in the pedigree has "xx" after its name, you know you are getting 100% TB.

[Little Birdie]

Interesting discussion...and at least its to a point where it is a discussion as opposed to years past. And very interesting to see people from both camps agreeing with each other. That is progress and there is hope.


I just wanted to comment on this last post though.
But, not buyer would be duped about what they are actually buying if they ask to see the papers/bloodlines before purchasing a horse. When every single horse in the pedigree has "xx" after its name, you know you are getting 100% TB.

I'm not sure how many non-breeders would pick up on that. Some will and some wouldn't. I've heard some pretty bad horror stories of buyers being duped, not specifically on this issue. But your average buyer does not understand all the ins and outs of wb breeding and registries.

[talloaks]

Well, the first one I noticed was sired by Jasprin, so that goes back more than a few years. Would have to do some research to come up with the name of the "foal", but it is out there, Bernie.

Now there are the Coconut Grove and A Fine Romance offspring out of TB mares. Again, don't know the foal names off the top of my head.

I'm quite sure you can check this out on your own through ISR as you are involved with them.

People breeding TB x TB via AI have limited choices in registration - PHR or ISR are the obvious options. Think the BWP did a couple of these this year also, but may be tightening up their rules hereafter.


Well I just checked the stallion directories for the years 2005, 2006 and 2007 for the foals born in 2004, 2005 and 2006 and there were no full TB foals by either A Fine Romance or Coconut Grove. Just the facts!!:)

[Iron Horse Farm]

"They were bred with approved Oldenberg stallions out of approved Oldenberg mares, by the European Oldenburg standards. The ISR/OLD NA is breeding Oldenburgs!!"

Uhmm. No they aren't being bred by the European Oldenburg standards - it says it right on the ISR website - they are using the Oldenburg name, with the Oldenburg brand BUT THEY ADMIT TO USING DIFFERENT STANDARDS, so please tell me how is that "Oldenburg"?

Could someone tell me which standards are different? Besides the fact that GOV does not seem to have a lower book registry.

[Sonesta]

Let's look at differences in "standards."

Let's take one hypothetical horse: Paint mare, by qh stallion out of paint mare. Presented for inspection at both ISR/ONA and GOV. Scores the same in both registries by their inspectors with a respectable score that would put a warmblood mare into the main mare books of both.

She would not be turned down by either.

With ISR/ONA she would go into the ISR premare book and her foals would only be registered and branded with the ISR brand - not the O & crown. Could not produce a stallion prospect.

With GOV she would go into the Pre mare book and her foals WOULD be registered GOV and microchipped as such. Could not produce a stallion prospect.

[carosello]

Could someone tell me which standards are different? Besides the fact that GOV does not seem to have a lower book registry.


GOV has 4 mare books actually.
Main Mare book (highest)
Mare book
Pre mare book I
Pre mare book II

mares must meet score and pedigree requirements to be considered in the MMB. Lesser scores and inadequate pedigree and they will drop down. These are the same books they have in Germany. I believe in Europe there is a rule that all horses...even grade ones must be able to get a paper of some sort so the lesser books would fulfill that role although I think you do not tend to want to use those as breeding stock.

Also GOV does not do a MPT in the US but does give Premium and Elite mare status. To become a Premium mare she must be MMB and score 7.5 or above...something that you do not see too many of as the scoring is usually pretty tuff.

[Fairview Horse Center]

What are the different pedigree and score requirements for each mare book, in each registry, anyone know?

[misita]

"They were bred with approved Oldenberg stallions out of approved Oldenberg mares, by the European Oldenburg standards. The ISR/OLD NA is breeding Oldenburgs!!"

Uhmm. No they aren't being bred by the European Oldenburg standards - it says it right on the ISR website - they are using the Oldenburg name, with the Oldenburg brand BUT THEY ADMIT TO USING DIFFERENT STANDARDS, so please tell me how is that "Oldenburg"?
__________________________________________________ _______________

From the ISR web-site www.isroldenburg.org About Us, Registry,


The International Sporthorse Registry (ISR) and Oldenburg Registry North America (Ol NA) was founded in 1983 in order to provide high quality service to breeders of modern sport horses in North America. The Registry is not a branch of an European breed organization but has adopted the successful breeding philosophy and politics of the German Oldenburg Sport Horse.

The secret of success of the Oldenburg Sport Horse is an "open book" that accepts the best sport horses (stallions and mares) from different sport horse bloodlines- including Thoroughbreds - into ints breeding program.

The ISR - Oldenburg Registry North America brought this philosophy to North America and offers breeders to cross the borders of bloodline restriction for the benefit of improvement of American bred sport horses. The success of the first twenty years of the Oldenburg Registry North America can prove this breeding policy!
__________________________________________________ ______________

How is a ISR/ONA approved stallion bred to a ISR/ONA approved mare not Oldenburg?

I look forward to working with both registries. Holly, with GOV, is a doll and has been very helpful. ISR/ONA has been very fun and educational to work with.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

[carosello]

What are the different pedigree and score requirements for each mare book, in each registry, anyone know?


The website may have some of that info for you

http://www.oldenburghorse.com/Oldbrg-Inspections.htm

[DownYonder]

Let's take one hypothetical horse: Paint mare, by qh stallion out of paint mare. Presented for inspection at both ISR/ONA and GOV. Scores the same in both registries by their inspectors with a respectable score that would put a warmblood mare into the main mare books of both.

She would not be turned down by either.

Not necessarily true. I once saw a QH/Arabian mare turned down completely at an Oldenburg (GOV) inspection, partly because of her small size, but mostly because she was a cross of two breeds whose breeding goals are not conducive to producing sport horses.

Even though such mares are sometimes accepted - and it is always into the lowest mare book (PMBII) - they rarely produce more than one foal for the registry, so the overall effect on the registry is pretty minimal.

The "different standards" are in the scoring systems and mare books, as well as in the mare eligibility rules. Oldenburg (GOV) uses the same scoring system here for mares and stallions that it uses in Germany, ISR/ONA uses a completely different scoring system. Oldenburg doesn't score foals, either here or in Germany; ISR/ONA does score foals. Oldenburg doesn't have a premium mare book - premium mares are MMB mares of especially high quality, and they receive a special premium mare plaque and are noted in the studbook as premium, but they stay in the MMB. ISR/ONA has a special book for premium mares. Oldenburg does not allow mares with unapproved WB stallions in the past 4 generations into its MMB, ISR/ONA does allow these mares into its MMB.

The disagreement over whether an ISR/ONA horse is an "Oldenburg" has to do with the fact that they are inspected and graded using a different system than what is used in Germany. Some feel that it isn't right for German Oldenburg breeders to be held to one standard, while North American Oldenburg breeders use a different standard. IOW, all "Oldenburgs" should be produced according to the same standard, whether they are bred in Germany, the U.S., Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Poland, Russia, etc. (and yes, Oldenburg actually goes to Poland and Russia and a bunch of other countries to inspect and register horses!).

[tri]

There was a thread a while back about Hanoverians with one poster insisting that a hanoverian was a true breed stating that they had to have a certain percentage of hanoverian blood. It was found that in Hanover, they don't have the 50% hano blood rule and there were breeders in hanover (mostly breeders of event horses) that were breeding almost pure Tbs approved and branded Hanoverian.

[jlmckinley]

I pasted Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society text on the different books
***********************************
Main Mare Book (Main Studbook) * The mare’s dam must be either in, or eligible for (meaning she has the proper registration, but has not yet been inspected), the Main Mare Book or Mare Book of an acknowledged breeding association. Main Mare Book requires a 4-generation pedigree of approved and licensed stallions - the sire of the mare and all the sires within the past three generations of her dam must be approved and licensed by the Oldenburg Verband or another acknowledged breeding association (See diagram below). In addition, the mare must score at least 6.0 for her overall evaluation, with no single criteria score lower than 5.0. The six criteria are:

-Type (Breed and Sex type)
-Quality of Conformation (made up of scores for head, neck, saddle position, frame, fore limbs and hind limbs)
- Correctness of Gaits
- Impulsion and Elasticity (Trot)
- Walk
- General Impression and Development

Mare Book (Studbook) * The mare’s dam must be either in, or eligible for, the Main Mare Book, Mare Book, or Pre-Mare Book I of an acknowledged breeding association. Mare Book requires a 3-generation pedigree of approved and licensed stallions * the sire of the mare and all the sires within the past two generations of her dam must be approved and licensed by the Oldenburg Verband or another acknowledged breeding association. In addition, the mare must score at least 5.0 for her overall evaluation, with no single score lower than 4.0.

Pre-Mare Book I (Pre-Studbook I) * Requires a 2-generation pedigree of approved stallions. The mare’s sire and her dam’s sire must both be approved and licensed by the Oldenburg Verband or another acknowledged breeding association. In addition, the mare must score at least 5.0 for her overall evaluation, with no single score lower than 4.0.

Pre-Mare Book II (Pre-Studbook II) * Mares that exhibit the type of a German riding horse but that do not meet the criteria for a higher division can be entered into Pre-Mare Book II.
************************************

I have a question -or a few- about the hypothetical mare (by qh out of paint) that Sonesta mentioned - purely trying to learn here.

Upon approval, sufficient scores, and entrance into the lowest GOV mare book (pre mare book II) and being bred to a fully approved GOV stallion, the resulting offspring (GOV x qh - paint), if a mare, would still fall into pre mare book II because of unverified parentage on dam's sire side, correct?

I am deducing that it would take two generations of offspring before an individual mare could be entered into the pre mare book I (this specific pre mare book I candidate's pedigree would be by a GOV stallion out of a GOV X paint/qh mare)? So then the third generation offspring (87.5% GOV approved bloodlines) would be by a GOV stallion and out of a mare that was 75% approved GOV bloodlines and eligible for the mare book (three approved/verified generations). And so on?

Side question, the resulting offspring of original hypothetical paint-qh mare and approved GOV stallion - would be pink papered foals, and they would be an oldenburg by name, but if a mare and wanting to reproduce as an oldenburg it would take 3 generations to reach mare book?

Hopefully I did not overstate or mis-state anything - that was not my intention, just curious.

[Bent Hickory]

There was a thread a while back about Hanoverians with one poster insisting that a hanoverian was a true breed stating that they had to have a certain percentage of hanoverian blood. It was found that in Hanover, they don't have the 50% hano blood rule and there were breeders in hanover (mostly breeders of event horses) that were breeding almost pure Tbs approved and branded Hanoverian.

The so-called 50% blood rule is intended to address which foals can be registered as "Hanoverians" by the AHS from parents that belong to outside populations. It is intended to address the situation where a foal out of an AHS-approved Holsteiner mare and by an AHS-approved Oldenburg stallion would somehow get AHS papers as a Hanoverian. This breeding would have to have 50% Hanoverian blood to "justify" receiving Hanoverian papers. In similar fashion, this rule prevents an AHS-approved TB mare from being bred to an AHS-approved TB stallion and get a "Hanoverian" foal. Contrary to the above post, the Verband has a similar rule that serves the identical purpose.

The AHS rules on this have been clarified in the last year or so to clearly align with the Verband's rules. The AHS has made clear that a foal bearing the H or the H-US brand is considered a Hanoverian regardless of its percentage of Hanoverian "blood." Thus, any breeding animal (mare or stallion) bearing the H or the H-US brand can be bred to any other AHS-approved breeding animal (either Hanoverian or non-Hanoverian) to produce a Hanoverian foal.

So yes, a mare having a Hanoverian brand can be bred to an AHS-approved TB stallion and her daughters can be bred to AHS-approved TB stallions and those daughters' daughters can be bred to AHS-approved TB stallions and so on to produce foals with high percentages of TB blood that are still branded as Hanoverians. This applies in Germany as well as here in the U.S.

[carosello]

I have a question -or a few- about the hypothetical mare (by qh out of paint) that Sonesta mentioned - purely trying to learn here.

Upon approval, sufficient scores, and entrance into the lowest GOV mare book (pre mare book II) and being bred to a fully approved GOV stallion, the resulting offspring (GOV x qh - paint), if a mare, would still fall into pre mare book II because of unverified parentage on dam's sire side, correct?

I am deducing that it would take two generations of offspring before an individual mare could be entered into the pre mare book I (this specific pre mare book I candidate's pedigree would be by a GOV stallion out of a GOV X paint/qh mare)? So then the third generation offspring (87.5% GOV approved bloodlines) would be by a GOV stallion and out of a mare that was 75% approved GOV bloodlines and eligible for the mare book (three approved/verified generations). And so on?

Side question, the resulting offspring of original hypothetical paint-qh mare and approved GOV stallion - would be pink papered foals, and they would be an oldenburg by name, but if a mare and wanting to reproduce as an oldenburg it would take 3 generations to reach mare book?

Hopefully I did not overstate or mis-state anything - that was not my intention, just curious.

My understanding is also the same...after many generations you could dilute the QH enough to get a foal that would be in the upper books (As long as the movement scores were also enough). But the question is why would you do that? To wait generation after generation. There are people dabbling with color who may have tried to do it but still there is no guarantee after so many generations that the color will stick.

I do not know if there was QH beyond the 4th generation if they could still consider a colt a stallion prospect. I guess the GOV would need to answer that directly to you.

[jlmckinley]

I was just trying to understand the example set forth and trying to understand one of the registeries in which our family breeding farm is a member more accurately. We purchase, breed, and raise horses from GOV and AHS eligible bloodlines (ex. main mare book or elite eligible - all generations, not 4th).

This discussion has been helpful!

[DownYonder]

I do not know if there was QH beyond the 4th generation if they could still consider a colt a stallion prospect.

I believe it would take at least 6 generations, since stallions have to be out of MMB mares who are out of MMB mares. IOW, it would take 4 generations to get to the first MMB mare, 5 generations for the second MMB mare, and 6 generations for the stallion prospect colt.

[schwung]

I just wanted to ask if anyone knew if the original score required for Premium mare was 7.5 or 7.0? My mare was inspected pre-split and it was 7.0 at that time. I assume it would have been the same as the GOV pre-split so 7.0 was the standard. Now it is 7.5 and thus my mare is no longer eligible (she received a 7.0).

I've also been told that American-bred mares are not eligible for Elite status in the GOV, even if they meet all the other requirements, which seems a little unfair to me.

[carosello]

I do not know what the pre-split score would need to be Premium...I only know that it is 7.5 for GOV now.

Also this is from the website re: Elite status. I do not see anything which says German born only.



For mares with Oldenburg foals, and who meet one of the following criteria:
1. Mares with the title "States Premium Mare" and/or those with the title "States Premium Candidate" (awarded only in Germany) who have had at least 3 foals registered with the Oldenburg Society of which 50% were awarded premium.
2. Mares that have had at least 2 foals registered with the Oldenburg Society of which 50% were awarded premium, and have themselves met the minimum performance requirements in competition. Those requirements are: In Dressage, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd with a minimum score of 60% in 3rd level, or three times in the awarded placings in classes above 3rd level. In Jumping, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd at a height of 1.20 meters, or three times in the awarded placings at the height of 1.25 meters or higher. In Eventing, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd at Training Level or three times in the awarded placings in Preliminary level or higher. The performance results listed here must be achieved at a show that is officially sanctioned by the national riding federation of the respective country. Schooling show results will not be accepted.
3. Mares who have had at least 4 foals registered with the Oldenburg Society of which 50% are mares who have been awarded Premium status, States Premium, and/or States Premium Candidate status, or of which 25% are stallions who have been approved by the Oldenburg Society.
4. Mares who have had at least 4 foals registered with the Oldenburg Society of which 50% have met the minimum performance requirements in competition. Those requirements are: In Dressage, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd with a minimum score of 60% in 3rd level, or three times in the awarded placings in classes above 3rd level. In Jumping, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd at a height of 1.20 meters, or three times in the awarded placings at the height of 1.25 meters or higher. In Eventing, placing at least three times 1st through 3rd at Training level, or three times in the awarded placings at Preliminary level or higher. The performance results listed here must be achieved at a show that is officially sanctioned by the national riding federation of the respective country. Schooling show results will not be accepted.

Mares which fulfill the conditions in 2 and 4 must also have received an above average overall score from the Oldenburg inspection committee. Mares with the Premium title generally fulfill this condition.
To receive the Elite Mare status, the owner must apply by sending a letter to the North American Office with the mare's registration and pedigree information as well as a list of the fulfilled requirements.

[DownYonder]

I just wanted to ask if anyone knew if the original score required for Premium mare was 7.5 or 7.0? My mare was inspected pre-split and it was 7.0 at that time. I assume it would have been the same as the GOV pre-split so 7.0 was the standard. Now it is 7.5 and thus my mare is no longer eligible (she received a 7.0).

I've also been told that American-bred mares are not eligible for Elite status in the GOV, even if they meet all the other requirements, which seems a little unfair to me.

I don't think her pre-split score matters. She would have to earn the current qualifying score at her re-inspection.

And I agree with Carosello, I don't think the Elite title has anything to do with where the mare is bred or born. An American-bred mare is not eligible for State Premium status, so maybe that is what your source was thinking of.

[eggbutt]

Let's look at differences in "standards."

Let's take one hypothetical horse: Paint mare, by qh stallion out of paint mare. Presented for inspection at both ISR/ONA and GOV. Scores the same in both registries by their inspectors with a respectable score that would put a warmblood mare into the main mare books of both.

She would not be turned down by either.

With ISR/ONA she would go into the ISR premare book and her foals would only be registered and branded with the ISR brand - not the O & crown. Could not produce a stallion prospect.

With GOV she would go into the Pre mare book and her foals WOULD be registered GOV and microchipped as such. Could not produce a stallion prospect.

Help!! I'm confused Sonesta! Is your example truly hypothetical or can a QH cross be taken for inspection?? Several pages back I read something about way back when the bruhaha began QH's were being passed "under the table". I understand something unethical was going on at the time, but I'm at a loss as to why QH blood would be banned from wb breed registries if the horse passed an inspection process. I certainly understand that is what the AWR and ASR registries can be for, but if you have a QH x Hano or Old or Trak or whatever, why can't that offspring be inspected by the breed registry of the wb?

[Sonesta]

I used the QH/Paint as a hypothetical, but such mares CAN and DO get inspected and approved by both registries. As stated, with ISR/ONA the mare goes into only the ISR book and has a foal that is registered ISR, not Oldenburg NA.

With GOV, the mare goes into the PreMare book and the foal gets regular pink papers and is called Oldenburg. True, it cannot produce a stallion prospect, but it's still called and registered Oldenburg.

[willie 2]

Is a horse already registered with the GOV eligible for registration with the
ISR (does the ISR accept GOV as sufficient papering?)?

[talloaks]

I used the QH/Paint as a hypothetical, but such mares CAN and DO get inspected and approved by both registries. As stated, with ISR/ONA the mare goes into only the ISR book and has a foal that is registered ISR, not Oldenburg NA.

With GOV, the mare goes into the PreMare book and the foal gets regular pink papers and is called Oldenburg. True, it cannot produce a stallion prospect, but it's still called and registered Oldenburg.


With your example here, Sonesta, it appears as if the ISR/OLDNA is making a superior separation by using the ISR books, brands, and registration papers on your example. With GOV it looks like all get the same papers, but of course no brand. Do all GOV foals get the implant? Is there anything on their paper work to show they are the result of a lower marebook/studbook?

[Sonesta]

I have a client who owns such a GOV registered horse. I will get her to send me a copy of her papers and will let you know.

[Tiki]

Is a horse already registered with the GOV eligible for registration with the
ISR (does the ISR accept GOV as sufficient papering?)?It seems you're asking 2 different questions at the same time. WB's can ONLY be registered in one registry. They can be approved for breeding, at 3 or older, with anyone who will take them

[eggbutt]

Lordy, I'm so confused! Help Sonesta!!! :eek:

I actually have a QH registerered mare in foal to Rolling Stone (Old). I've been told her foal can only be registered by AWS because of the QH blood. I'd LOVE for this foal to be eligible registered OLD (I'm not smart enough to know WHICH Old) rather than AWS. And, I'd love for this foal to be inspected if it is as nice as I suspect it's going to be but of course it can't be inspected if it's not registered!

[ise@ssl]

Your QH mare can be inspected for the ISR MARE BOOK. Her foal by Rolling Stone will be scored - as all other foals are. The foal will receive ISR papers - branding is optional for ISR. The foal will be eligible for a Premium foal award if it scores high enough. You will need an ISR/OLDNA breeding Certificate from the Stallion owner. Papers a 5 generation pedigree for the mare.

[Sonesta]

You'd have to check with GOV on whether they are still inspecting QH mares and putting them in the PreMare book. As ise@ssi said, your mare, if she scores well enough, could go into the ISR mare book and the foal would get ISR papers (and branded if you wish). If the latter, you would not refer to the foal as Oldenburg; rather ISR. Only those mares in the ISR/ONA main mare book or above get Oldenburg papers and brand.

[eggbutt]

Without a doubt, ya'll have made my day! Thank you!!!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I believe the Belgian Warmblood Registry would also inspect your Quarter Horse mare. Check with them to see if they will accept Rolling Stone as an other registry stallion. She may be eligible for the MMB with them.

[carosello]

Lordy, I'm so confused! Help Sonesta!!! :eek:

I actually have a QH registerered mare in foal to Rolling Stone (Old). I've been told her foal can only be registered by AWS because of the QH blood. I'd LOVE for this foal to be eligible registered OLD (I'm not smart enough to know WHICH Old) rather than AWS. And, I'd love for this foal to be inspected if it is as nice as I suspect it's going to be but of course it can't be inspected if it's not registered!

And after checking with the office if they would inspect the mare for Pre Mare Book II the other option may be getting a Certificate of Pedigree.

[DownYonder]

Oldenburg (GOV) does still accept QH mares but they always go in the lowest mare book, PMBII. I have actually seen very few lately at our inspections here, and they have all been sport horse types and not stock types. We had a very nice QH mare at the Georgia inspection last year - one of the first QH mares I have seen here in many years. She was 16h with good sport horse type conformation and actually scored quite well. You could see the QH in her gaits - not much elasticity or suspension or scope, but otherwise you might have thought she was TB (other than color - she was red roan). She had a very nice Sure Hit filly at her side with lots of elasticity and suspension and the inspector (Katrin Burger) said it was a shame the dam was QH because the filly was a premium quality foal (but couldn't get a premium award because the dam wasn't in the MMB).

I honestly don't know if they would accept a pure stock horse or typical QH halter type. The office told me last year that there aren't very many QH or other "off-breeds" coming to the inspections these days, and there have been very, very few of them that have presented more than one foal for the registry, so they feel that the impact on the registry from these foals is pretty minimal.

The mare book placement of the dam is denoted on the pedigree page of the registration passport for Oldenburg (GOV) foals, so even if a filly from a QH mare comes back for mare inspection, the inspectors can see on her paperwork that she came from a PMBII dam and they will place her accordingly in the studbooks. Again, mares can only move up one studbook per generation, so it takes 4 generations before a descendant of a QH mare can get into the MMB - that's plenty of time for the QH blood to be diluted.

[Sonesta]

Just looked at friend's pedigree. The ONLY indication that this "Oldenburg" is any different from any other Oldenburg is that on the pedigree page there is a notation that the foal's dam in in PreMare Book II. Hard to find unless you know where to look.

So, bottom line to ME is that while I don't breed either ISR/ONA or GOV, iit seems that ISR/ONA makes a clear distinction between the two and one could easily purchase a GOV registered horse that is really a QH (or other off breed) cross.

[Iron Horse Farm]

So, bottom line to ME is that while I don't breed either ISR/ONA or GOV, iit seems that ISR/ONA makes a clear distinction between the two and one could easily purchase a GOV registered horse that is really a QH (or other off breed) cross.

So would GOV let in a draft horse or a draft cross and just label it PMBII? I know that ISR will take those.