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JackSprats Mom
Oct. 17, 2007, 11:03 PM
So why do so many arabs travel croup high?

I see it even in horses going solid 3rd and 4th. It seem particular to this breed of horse and I'm wondering what predisposes them to it?

Thanks

pintopiaffe
Oct. 18, 2007, 02:31 AM
um, I'll venture a guess, mostly conformation.

Ever look at a halter bred when it's just standing? They only have a 'level' topline when they are doing the pose. Many, many arabs are croup high to begin with.

It's something that as a Sport breeder who uses Arab blood, I avoid like the plague.

They also as a rule tend to tighten/hollow the back and have 'out and back' hock action. Again, you have to look to certain bloodlines to avoid it.

Interestingly (to me, of course :lol: ) my guy has plenty of sit behind, but he does not have the typical tail set or 'flagging' of his tail. I'm sure it's related, somehow, though I don't know the biomechanics of it.

exvet
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:20 AM
Personally (and I do own a couple of Arabs) I think there are two primary factors, conformation as has been stated AND the fact that their conformation makes it often very challenging to get them truly through the back. Many of the ones I see at those levels (mostly at the breed shows) and the one that I competed through third had/have a difficult time round up over the back and/or coming through the back and really mobilizing the pelvis. My horse had hock issues as well so that made going any further simply not possible.

When I watch my arabs at liberty they always remind me of people (myself included) who have a natural arch in their back and the determination and effort one must put forth to lose the inclination to ride with that arched back (in other words ride with a neutral pelvis) and really learn how to use and tilt the pelvis appropriately (and at the right times) in order to influence the horse properly with the seat. That can only happen when one is "through the back".

mjhco
Oct. 18, 2007, 11:56 AM
So why do so many arabs travel croup high?

I see it even in horses going solid 3rd and 4th. It seem particular to this breed of horse and I'm wondering what predisposes them to it?

Thanks

I have been involved with Arabian horses since the dawn of time.

I perceive what you are seeing is due to 'high water hocks' and other conformation defects that are being selected FOR in our breed due to the emphasis on halter classes. Longer high legs due to cannon bone length helps to put up the croup so it looks flat for that halter stance that is so popular.

That being said there have been some lines in the past that tend to be a little croup high. But those lines also had the ability to 'sit' and to flex their joints being so athletic.

Some of it can also be due to training. Each horse has its strong points and weak points and that in these cases there is probably need to do exercises to encourage the horse to sit and use its rear end. Many trainers/riders no matter what the breed tend to ride front to back and that certainly does nothing to discourage croup high behavior.

The biggest challenge I have seen with Arabians and their crosses is to encourage them to lift their backs and not hollow. And to not tense their backs. I do not know if that is conformation, muscle configuration, natural instincts or what. I just know it is a common occurance.

ideayoda
Oct. 18, 2007, 12:11 PM
From judging and riding many of them: because they are not ridden out to the bridle early on. They are so delicate in the throatlatch, easily flexed (to vertical or shortened). Because of this they must be ridden for a longer period of time in a slightly longer/open frame to develop strength or they never fold the hindlegs or sit. Add lateral work to a body type which has not been developed to properly take a hh, and bingo the croup comes up. Even if a horse tends to be flatter in the croup, they can have an uphill working posture.

cuatx55
Oct. 18, 2007, 12:44 PM
You don't see this is non-halter lines. Halter lines have been selectively bred for generations to be extremely exotic and have a level topline ONLY when stretched out on the hinds. Just like with QHs, there are many types and lines of Arabs.

Agreed! My horse is also somewhat croup hight but getting much better with correct work. They can stretch over their backs just as well as any other horse. Arabs are "different" but not so different as people say. It's all in the training.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 18, 2007, 01:04 PM
The reasons are many. For some it is due to the halter and for others it is due to bad choices on the breeders part downhill and such. The first sport horse I looked at to buy was a very nice purebred halter horse that switched to sport horse. His back was very flat but not hollow and there wasnt alot of problems getting him to the bit and he was very strong. My problem with him was stiffness in the shoulder and loosening it up was most of the ride. My own horse is a mixture of sport horse and english lines and he has more of the uphill frame and isnt usually croup high although there have been days when bucking and croup high occur. I still see the shoulder problems in my own horse and have a beef more with this problem than any of the others as far as breeders go. The Arabian sport horses are getting better and you see more distinction between halter and riding horses like with the QHs. It just depends on what side of the versatility fence you are on but thats another can of worms.

mp
Oct. 18, 2007, 01:54 PM
The reasons are many. For some it is due to the halter and for others it is due to bad choices on the breeders part downhill and such.

"Halter" breeding isn't to blame for poorly conformed Arabians, any more than "endurance" breeding is to blame for nervous ones with upside down necks and no brakes. It's called "crappy breeding." Period.

I did a lot research every time I bred and every time I ended up breeding to a halter horse, even though my goal was to produce nice riding horses. Why? Because they had the excellent conformation and bloodlines I wanted. And I was never disappointed in what those sires produced.


The first sport horse I looked at to buy was a very nice 17.1 purebred halter horse that switched to sport horse.

Either a hand doesn't equal 4" where you live or you need to get a new measuring tape.

to the OP ... exvet gave an excellent answer to your question. I'm just fooling around at TL with my horse, but getting him to lift his back and "let go" of his pelvis is our biggest challenge.

Trixie's mom
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:07 PM
not all arabs travel croup high. mine doesn't. where have you been looking?

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:31 PM
Either a hand doesn't equal 4" where you live or you need to get a new measuring tape.

.[/QUOTE]


If youve been to a large arabian show lately you will see these sizey animals are becoming THE THING. My arabian is 16h (with shoes) and a purebred and by far not the largest horse in his classes. I looked at two other purebredsthis week one was a lovely mare that is bred to a warmblood that she is larger than. I should know since the QH im showing is 17.2.

Trixie's mom
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:42 PM
honestly nomi...i have never seen a purbred over the 16 h range...and I've been showing arabs for a long time...all over this country. now i've seen half arabs hitting 17 h but that's different. name a registered purebred arab over 16.2. i'm quite curious...

loshad
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:44 PM
Trixie's mom, I've met one over 16.2-- Russian racing bred. He was supposedly purebred, but even the trainer suspected that there might be more than a little TB in the woodpile. Gorgeous beastie, though. Of course, I've always been a fan of Anglo-Arabs. ;)

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:49 PM
No need to be snide the horse was 17.1 and if youve been to a large arabian show lately you will see these sizey animals are becoming THE THING. My arabian is 16h and a purebred and by far not the largest horse in his classes. I looked at two other purebreds that are 17h this week one was a lovely mare that is bred to a warmblood that she is larger than. I should know since my QH that is also full quarter is 17.2.

Well then they are flaunting the stated size standards (http://www.arabianhorses.org/home/faq/AskExpert4.asp).


In height, the Arabian horse generally measures 14.1 to 15.1 hands at the withers, although there are horses which measure above or below this height.
... from the Arabian Horse Association website. :winkgrin:

p.s. "becoming THE THING" is not necessarily a good thing. People who follow fads don't have sense enough to think for themselves.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:49 PM
Are you serious?? At the Scottsdale purebred class there was probably 5-6 horses that were very large.
Are you guys talking about sport horses??

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:54 PM
I believe the thread is about ARABIANS. Just plain ol' ARABIANS.

Define "sport horses", please.

caffeinated
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:55 PM
Are you serious?? At the Scottsdale purebred class there was probably 5-6 horses well over 16h and I looked at to buy 3 of them. The one Im talking about is named Mendeley Bey and one of the mares was Rosies something or other Ill have to get her name.



ermm..... I love google:

"This gelding stands 16.1 hands and with his type and size would be suitable for a tall rider. He has been shown successfully in Sport horse as well as Hunter Pleasure. This year at Region 7, he was Reserve Champion SHUS and Top 5 SHUS ATR"

I don't see anything about 17 hands on his sale website....



I dunno, I rode with a girl for a while who had a TRUE! 16.2 HAND! ARAB! and from standing next to him, I think if you used a stick he'd have come out maybe just over 15.3.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:55 PM
Trixie's mom, I've met one over 16.2-- Russian racing bred. He was supposedly purebred, but even the trainer suspected that there might be more than a little TB in the woodpile. Gorgeous beastie, though. Of course, I've always been a fan of Anglo-Arabs. ;)

Funny you should say this because I have had people accuse me of my horse being part TB. When they see that he looks just like his very Arab parents who are sporty and large as well then they give it up.

LuvMyNSH
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:59 PM
No need to be snide the horse was 17.1 and if youve been to a large arabian show lately you will see these sizey animals are becoming THE THING.


I must not be going to the right shows. I only go to dinky little venues like Regions 1, 2, 7, and 8, US Natl's, Scottsdale, and Youth, where the purebred horses are fairly well-built, but rarely if ever go over 15.2. My old barn had one 15.1 PB hunter mare, and she stuck out like a sore thumb because of her size- and very often lost to much smaller, more typey horses.

Bigger is better, yes, but 'big' is relative and quality and type still beat out size every time. I have seen one 15.3hh purebred, but he was so coarse he looked like a poor quality half-arab.

Perhaps it was a case of the horse looking bigger than he was? My NSH sticks out at 15.2, but everyone always guesses his height at 16hh+. A pity either way, because I wanted a pony. :lol:

WBLover
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:01 PM
Sounds like my neighbor who SWEARS his Tennessee Walker is 17H, well, maybe if you measured him at the poll!!

I told him, gee, that's funny, his withers come up to my nose, and I'M 16.1H....

caffeinated
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:01 PM
I believe the thread is about ARABIANS. Just plain ol' ARABIANS.

Define "sport horses", please.

hitch, here's one:
http://homepage.mac.com/starview/legend.html

He was second in Sporthorse in hand at The Scottsdale.

royal militron
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:21 PM
Can anyone post pictures of theirs?

mp
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:23 PM
and if youve been to a large arabian show lately you will see these sizey animals are becoming THE THING.


I've been to many big shows and visited many large breeding operations. I have seen hundreds and hundreds of Arabians. Many of them quite "sizey." And I've seen exactly one that was a true 16h. I don't doubt there are a few who are 16h and perhaps even a bit taller. But I doubt there is a 17.1 purebred. The next time you see one, please take a picture showing a measuring tape at the withers.

A lot of people overestimate (or just flat-out lie about) how tall their horses are. But I've found Arabian people are the worst. Personally, I don't think it's a sin to own a horse that's under 16 hands. Or 15 hands for that matter. My horse is 14.3. Really. Most people guess taller because he has a beautiful, long neck. But he is just 14.3. Arabs aren't supposed to be big apes, you know, "sporthorse" or not.

sporthorsefilly
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:26 PM
This boy is just 15 hands:

http://www.herselffarm.com/images/Peanut-at-home-Sept-23--2006.jpg

tempichange
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:31 PM
hitch, here's one:
http://homepage.mac.com/starview/legend.html

He was second in Sporthorse in hand at The Scottsdale.

I've seen him, he's a nice horse, but doesn't go under saddle at all, just does the triangle stuff. I wouldn't consider him a sport horse or sport horse sire.

class
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:33 PM
you can tell my guy is only 14.2 because i look gigantic on him. sometimes, when he gets going, i just take my feet out of the stirrups and drag my heels on the ground to slow us down. ;)

he's not so much croup high, then again he's usually not so much through the back either.

http://nvclbey.mysite.com/images/summerfield_016.jpg

also: i have no idea what the difference between an arabian and a sporthorse arabian is. i have tried asking nomiomi before but she doesn't answer. does anyone know? can you find the 17.1 hand sporthorse arabians in the continent of mexico or something?

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:35 PM
My horse is by www.azhorseconnection.com/StallionAlley.pdf the top right Stallion Tezmar Bey he is a great horse lots of body and natural overstride.

caffeinated
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:37 PM
can you find the 17.1 hand sporthorse arabians in the continent of mexico or something?

I dunno, the one she said was 17.1 is actually advertised as 16.1. Though maybe I spelled it wrong.

http://www.nelsonfarmsinc.com/html/sale.htm

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:41 PM
Another one of my favorites from what I understand he has a foal that is close to 17h and is a purebred I dont know I havnt followed up. http://www.arabiansporthorse.com/

pandorasboxx
Oct. 18, 2007, 04:43 PM
The first sport horse I looked at to buy was a very nice 17.1 purebred halter horse that switched to sport horse.

Bwhahahahhahahahahhahahahhahhaaaaaaaa!!!!!! Are you effin' serious??

Maybe measured from the poll down.

When the horse is rearing.

*jesuschristosmuttermutter*

mp
Oct. 18, 2007, 05:02 PM
Here's one for you, Hitch

Aul Magic http://legendaryarabians.com/legend.htm, a Crabbet-bred stallion that has sired some very nice Arab crosses (SandyM on this board has one) and is approved by the American Trakehner Association. I saw him in a 2nd level test at Nationals -- he was awesome. And he's 14.2, typey as hell, an incredible mover and poop on those "sizey" horses that are THE THING.

rainechyldes
Oct. 18, 2007, 05:04 PM
Largest purebred halter line types I've come across are Bay el Bey stock if memory serves correctly. I think the biggest guy in the stud barn was about 16.1 with shoes. Nice lovely horse, but I don't get why everyone seems to think big is better.
Personally I think arabian horses are nicely sized in the 14-15.2/3 range. to me, that's the size that suits them.
I'm 5,7 and my largest horse is 15.3, more then big enough to cart me around happily in pretty much any thing we go do.

caffeinated
Oct. 18, 2007, 05:08 PM
ooh, mp I like him. I like his canter, in the saddleseat portion of his video- it looks big and rolling for a littler horse :)

Pielover
Oct. 18, 2007, 05:20 PM
There are a couple ways to measure horses the regular way and the Arabian way . I've owned , shown and bred Arabians for 25+ years and I've seen one true 16 hand Arab . Lots of show Arabs carry 4" of hoof plus shoes and pads that can add an inch or two . Very few owners will admit to the actual size of their horses, mine vary from 13.3 to 15 hands . I could easily pass my 15 hand horse off to other Arab owners as 16 hands .

exvet
Oct. 18, 2007, 05:22 PM
My horse is by www.azhorseconnection.com/StallionAlley.pdf the top right Stallion Tezmar Bey he is a great horse lots of body and natural overstride.

So how tall are you saying Tezmar is?

twnkltoz
Oct. 18, 2007, 05:22 PM
I believe the thread is about ARABIANS. Just plain ol' ARABIANS.

Define "sport horses", please.
An Arabian sport horse is one that participates in jumping or dressage. Some people show their horse in SHIH or SHUS and call it a sport horse, but in many people's opinion they're wrong.

I've never seen a pb arab that was 17 hands. I do know what that is definitely 16.2, though. I'm 16.2 and he's my height. I know another who is race-bred and is about 16 hands. Over 16 is still pretty rare for pb's, although they are out there.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 18, 2007, 05:27 PM
My horse is by www.azhorseconnection.com/StallionAlley.pdf the top right Stallion Tezmar Bey he is a great horse lots of body and natural overstride.

So how tall are you saying Tezmar is?

15.2

pintopiaffe
Oct. 18, 2007, 05:38 PM
Class, loff your photos and your sense of humour.

In my context, a Sporthorse Arab is just that--an Arab bred for dressage, hunters, jumpers, eventing or perhaps even combined driving. I use it the same way I use "Pinto Sporthorse, Paint Sporthorse, or Sport Pony." There are Arabian lines which are more successful, but it's more about the body type which succeeds in open competition.

My guy and his kids compete in open SHIH and now that the oldest are old enough, in dressage and eventing. His lines are Swedish/Polish and Crabbett. He was bred by a lady who has bred "using: for many generations, and has an eye for a great back end. I find it interesting that some of her horses go on to cutting, reining and working cowhorse success. Based on that, I've bred to two very baroque, very uphill, round APHA stallions and got really outstanding sporthorse foals as well.

I agree that there are regulation sticks, and Arab sticks. My guy's breeder was pretty chagrined when he was approved for the RPSI Sport... *pony* book. ;) He sticks a solid 14.3 barefoot with good feet... I can get 15h out of him with shoes. She shipped him to me as 15.1, and he definitely grew between 5 & 8. After the RPSI inpsections, she bought a regulation stick. She's now marketing a couple of sportponies... :yes: Doesn't change a thing--I adore him, he is talented enough to go as far as MY talent can take us (i.e. he is *limited* by me :uhoh: ) carries me fine, and is a blast to ride.

exvet
Oct. 18, 2007, 05:38 PM
15.2

My horse is his largest purebred get but he has a pinto that is 17h.

I'm aware of the pinto but Tezmar's owner is under the impression that the pinto is 16.2, 16.3 tops and you have Sonny right? How tall is he now? I know I saw and measured him at at time when he didn't have much more growing to do.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 18, 2007, 07:15 PM
Yep sonnys my horse and hes 16h with shoes (they do have a small wedge in them).:yes:

I havnt seen the pinto and was told he was large.

Renae
Oct. 18, 2007, 07:31 PM
An Arabian should not be 16 or 17 hands. That is not the breed standard. The breed standard height is 14.1-15.1 hands, and the best athletes of the breed by and large fall into that height range. many of the popular modern halter horse lines are larger, but they are also usually the lines that have such bad legs. If you are looking for an Arabian for dressage look at the Polish and CMK lines and horses that are of breed standard size, they will be the best athletes. If you'll study further you will also see that the lines emrging as the ones to produce Arabian dressage horses are the same lines that have produced the great Arabian park horses and cow horses, and all of those horses were all breed standard height 14.1-15.1 hands (Bask, Ronteza, etc.)

jvanrens
Oct. 18, 2007, 07:47 PM
I should know since my QH that is also full quarter is 17.2.

Hey Nomiomi, your QH Ladybug Jay, how is she bred? Is that her registered name? Sorry to go OT, but I'm a bit of a pedigree buff and am interested in bloodlines!

Ghazzu
Oct. 18, 2007, 07:48 PM
mp, you didn't get an official Arab measuring stick, apparently.
It's similar to a regular one, but the bottom 4" have been cut off.

exvet
Oct. 18, 2007, 07:54 PM
I havnt seen the pinto and was told he was 17h. Ive seen the others at Trishs barn and there is a Mare there and a Gelding that are pure and definately over 16.2 and much larger than my own horse.

Well you've peaked my curiousity. I talked to Tezmar's owner and again she is under the impression that those at Trish's barn that I believe you refer to are 16 hands and not over 16.2. Sonny was a hair under 15.2 when I measured him (with a regulation stick) though that was a few years ago when Judy wanted to run a for sale ad. His dam doesn't even make 15.2 so it surprises me that out of the pair he's measuring at 16 but only you really know. I don't make it to as many Arab shows as I use to but am hoping to make to the one in Tucson in January. If you're going to be showing Sonny there I'd love to stop by and see him. I'll be showing in the dressage show (running along side the Arab show) with my welsh cobs and Arabs.

Oh and when I told Tezmar's owner about the thread, she became highly amused ;)

exvet
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:05 PM
mp, you didn't get an official Arab measuring stick, apparently.
It's similar to a regular one, but the bottom 4" have been cut off.

hee, hee, hee, hee....when I went to look at my current mare at the breeder's place imagine my "surprise" to find out that the cute lil' gal who was advertised as 15 hands didn't even make 14 hands. Actually knowing her breeding I wasn't all that surprised but what was to be my daughter's future mount who is 5'6" ended up being purchased for a lower price than advertised and was then to be my son's mount. He's 5' tall. I know the breeder's former trainer (she was fired prior to my visit) must have been using one of them thar Ayrab measuring sticks. The breeder was actually pretty apologetic though not surprised when I whipped out my measuring stick after getting there and found out what she really measured. I honestly don't think he even knew what the ads said since he left it up to the "trainer" to take care of all that. She's grown to a whopping 14.1 now and I'm smitten with her. It would be nice though if people whether we're talking Arabs or not would represent their beasts honestly in terms of size. I can honestly say I wouldn't have purchased her even for my daughter if she had been as tall as 16 hands - I tend to believe the standards are there for a reason and if you want something that doesn't fit the standard, in this case in size, gosh go with a partbred or another breed :yes:

JackSprats Mom
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:07 PM
they must be ridden for a longer period of time in a slightly longer/open frame to develop strength or they never fold the hindlegs or sit.

I think I would go with this more then conformation (although I do agree conformation may sometimes play a part). The reason I say this is because I know several of these horses and they are not croup high on the gound.

And whoever quoted me as saying 'all arabs'..I didn't:winkgrin:. But I do see more arabs go in this manner then most other breeds. Not a 'critism' per se of the breed as I own one, just an observation.

Pony Fixer
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:23 PM
I don't make it to as many Arab shows as I use to but am hoping to make to the one in Tucson in January.

Exvet, you sound really knowledgeable and all, but just so you know, it's THE Tuscon. ;):lol:

Thomas_1
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:38 PM
Well the arab horse is one of my favourite breeds but from what is mentioned here, I'm wondering what the heck I've owned all my life.

Croup high?? Its supposed to be level. Though of course the tail is ordinarily carried high.

And height? Why the heck would anyone want a purebred Arab 16and 17 hands high.

If you're going to own a pure breed, then why not get a decent one that meets the breed standard for conformation and size?

IME they move in an elevated fashion and have great extension but personally speaking I'm struggling to imagine them commonly or ordinarily being great at serious high level dressage.

TeddyRocks
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:49 PM
Here's one for you, Hitch

Aul Magic http://legendaryarabians.com/legend.htm, a Crabbet-bred stallion that has sired some very nice Arab crosses (SandyM on this board has one) and is approved by the American Trakehner Association. I saw him in a 2nd level test at Nationals -- he was awesome. And he's 14.2, typey as hell, an incredible mover and poop on those "sizey" horses that are THE THING.

I really like this stallion... there is a picture of the rider holding the US flag in the right upper corner of the website home page... I was there working for Suzanne Sturgill who did the photo, and let me tell you that horse was amazing in person... Fabulous horse. I forget what year that was, but he is amazing...

enjoytheride
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:57 PM
This is the arab I ride.
She's actually 1/2 arab 1/2 hano but you can't tell the hano as much.
She is very very hot and can get tense in her back but she's a nice flat kneed mover when she's relaxed. Since I jump she's learning too and she's proving to be a pretty nice jumper.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/son_ya98/album/576460762379159803/photo/294928804091863513/1

exvet
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:59 PM
Exvet, you sound really knowledgeable and all, but just so you know, it's THE Tuscon.

Why thank you Ponyfixer. I stand corrected. Perhaps that's why I always miss the exit?! Actually I-10 goes right through but that's another matter. Teaches me to type fast in order to respond and then run out side to feed the screamin' critters. Also figure that the edjmacation you got at vet school must have been better than my'un. Ya know some of us are just more challenged than others even with all the letters behind our name :winkgrin:

And as for knowledgeable, well, not really as you pointed out. It just happens to be a small world thanks to the Internet. I still don't understand the "need" or desire to have Arabs taller than 15.2, croup high, level or not. I love the breed and they can perform and deliver but as the OP pointed out some also have their own challenges - maybe that's what draws me to them :yes:

twnkltoz
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:14 PM
I really like this stallion... there is a picture of the rider holding the US flag in the right upper corner of the website home page... I was there working for Suzanne Sturgill who did the photo, and let me tell you that horse was amazing in person... Fabulous horse. I forget what year that was, but he is amazing...
That rider would be my friend Patience Prine-Carr, who is currently showing another arabian stallion at I-1.

Just some FYI for ya. :)

EqTrainer
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:18 PM
From judging and riding many of them: because they are not ridden out to the bridle early on. They are so delicate in the throatlatch, easily flexed (to vertical or shortened). Because of this they must be ridden for a longer period of time in a slightly longer/open frame to develop strength or they never fold the hindlegs or sit. Add lateral work to a body type which has not been developed to properly take a hh, and bingo the croup comes up. Even if a horse tends to be flatter in the croup, they can have an uphill working posture.

I agree with this 100% and this is how my friend who breeds Arabs and half-Arabs rides them. Being the honest girl she is, about the breed she loves, she says that they are difficult to keep through the back and that the flat crouped ones take a long, long time before they begin to bend their joints and sit. If they ever do.

mp
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:25 PM
I really like this stallion... there is a picture of the rider holding the US flag in the right upper corner of the website home page... I was there working for Suzanne Sturgill who did the photo, and let me tell you that horse was amazing in person... Fabulous horse. I forget what year that was, but he is amazing...


When I saw him at Nationals in 2001, I hadn't started riding dressage yet. I just happened to notice him in the warm up and then watched his test. I've never seen a horse with that much -- charisma is the only thing I can think of calling it. He entered the ring and he owned it. Incredible horse.

Thomas, I'm with you on Arabians that have been "supersized." If I had to have a horse that was 15+ hands, I'd go with a different breed.

Cold Spring Farm
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:45 PM
hitch, here's one:
http://homepage.mac.com/starview/legend.html

He was second in Sporthorse in hand at The Scottsdale.

I stood next to him at Arabian Sport Horse Nationals. LOVELY horse, beautiful mover, good bone....but if he's 16.1 I'm Michelle Pfieffer!

Actually, he is about the same size as my 2 yr old half Arab gelding. And everyone at SHN came up to me and said "Wow, he;s going to be huge -- he's already over 16 hands, isn't he?" Uhm -- NO! Measured on concrete, with an aluminim stick with a built in bubble level -- He's 15.3.

I've had Arabs for over 35 years -- and Arab people have ALWAYS been notorius for their measuring skills. Very few even own a proper stick -- so how the heck can they know how big their horse is??

angel
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:50 PM
Largest Arabian I have seen was a true 16 h, barefoot. Truth stick measured.:lol:

As to the croup high, you will get that both from conformation, but even more so from reins too short. Because Arabians are short-backed, if you restrict the shoulders, there is no where for the energy of the hindquarters to go but up. Otherwise, you will get forging, or worse if you are not remembering to splint boots on them.

By the way, Renee...some of the Egyptian horses can also move. It depends more on the strain. Remember that some of the best moving horses at Crabbet were imported from the desert...Mesoud being one of the best.

JackSprats Mom
Oct. 18, 2007, 11:06 PM
IME they move in an elevated fashion and have great extension but personally speaking I'm struggling to imagine them commonly or ordinarily being great at serious high level dressage.

I'm curious as to why? (not starting a train wreck:lol:). What it takes to do 'serious high level dressage' is the obvious -movement, conformation and brains (trainability) which should be found in the same number of horses (ie its rare) of any breed that is conformationally suited to it which, with correct training, Arabs should be.

I mean truthfully very few horses are great at high level dressage, just the select few.


By the way, Renee...some of the Egyptian horses can also move :yes: ok ok I'm biased as mine is a SE Arab :winkgrin:

~Freedom~
Oct. 18, 2007, 11:27 PM
I mean truthfully very few horses are great at high level dressage, just the select few.



While certain breeds are better bred for higher level dressage there will be individuals within any breed that will be atypical of its genetics and succeed where it is not expected to.

Thomas_1
Oct. 19, 2007, 06:27 AM
I'm curious as to why? (not starting a train wreck:lol:). What it takes to do 'serious high level dressage' is the obvious -movement, conformation and brains (trainability) which should be found in the same number of horses (ie its rare) of any breed that is conformationally suited to it which, with correct training, Arabs should be.

I mean truthfully very few horses are great at high level dressage, just the select few.

:yes: ok ok I'm biased as mine is a SE Arab :winkgrin:

Got to admit I'm somewhat biased towards Arabs and anglo-arabs. Always liked them and always will do.

Apart from those over-exagerated ugly chisel/funnel faced F Ugly things that seem to have sneaked into becoming acceptable!

So why not great dressage horses at high level? First of all you've got to appreciate that this says more about the opposition and the truth is that there are breeds that are just intrinsically going to be much more inclined to be better because of their purposeful breeding for conformation and type. So that means if we're talking about "properly" competing rather than tootling about at the lower levels and paying entry fees ;), then we have the best arab which will be competing against the best of the warmblood and baroque breeds which are just going to better have the big movement and lofty suspensions that are favored in dressage, combined with the large size and weight which has become much more "fashionable" in what is after all a sport judged somewhat 'subjectively'.

I'd also say that a dressage horse well trained and balanced moves with the hind quarters lowered and the hind limbs acting underneath its body, and with an elevated forehand with the neck raised and arched and in terms of conformation the Arab is setting out disadvantaged IN COMPARISON to other breeds.

And every time I post about why I think a breed can or can't do something I ordinarily end up in some sort of debate with someone who insists that their little "floss" who is of the breed I mentioned is fantastic. I also get accused of being a terrible person because I must hate their chosen breed !

So BEFORE that happens this time and specifically for those who might be tempted :no:

- Appreciate that I like them :yes:in batting order of my favourite breeds that I would personally most want to own it goes: t/b and then arab and if I was being forced to have only one horse, I'd cheat and have an Anglo-arab.

- Understand purpose breeding and how the Arab horse is supreme and sublime at what it was bred for - and it was speed and endurance - NOT dressage

- Know the competition and how they are bred and conformed and their disposition and why the opposition is intrinsically going to be last in a race with an Arab but ahead of the queue for dressage medals

And as an aside and for the lower levels, considerations might be :winkgrin::

Arabs are just too damned clever to be obedient - they learn bad and wrong just as quickly as they learn good and right.

I've never known one yet that wasn't constantly thinking about getting behind or over the bit and poke its nose off and race and given just the slightest and merest indication

You tend to have to ride them always and every time and give them your utmost concentration. Even though they might well have been trained to a high level. They still forget themselves if something more fun appears on their horizon

Arab owners tend to of different disposition .... indeed I might even say they have personalities :winkgrin:

Sakura
Oct. 19, 2007, 08:17 AM
Here is my little Arabian sport horse (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/?action=view&current=ShenandoahClassicStrongCanter.jpg). He stands an honest 14.3/4 hh (so maybe I do stretch his height a little by saying 14.1hh ;) ). I have been told by a trainer/judge (same person in the photo) that if he was a hand taller we would "win everything"... We have held our own, especially in Sport Horse In-Hand, he is small but mighty :cool:.

TwoArabs
Oct. 19, 2007, 08:55 AM
One of my Arabs is 15 hands, but when he was shown at training level back in the early 90's, everyone would think that he was larger. He grows when he is at a show. When we first arrived all the WB folks said,"Oh what a cute little Arab" after he did his thing in the ring, he wasn't just that "cute little Arab" anymore. I agree, if an Arab was any larger, I wouldn't want it. My other Arab is 14.3 and the difference getting on, although not significant in range, makes a big difference to me. I'll ride my 14.3 more just simply because it is easier getting on and off.

BigHorseLittleHorse
Oct. 19, 2007, 09:05 AM
Arabs are just too damned clever to be obedient - they learn bad and wrong just as quickly as they learn good and right.

I've never known one yet that wasn't constantly thinking about getting behind or over the bit and poke its nose off and race and given just the slightest and merest indication

You tend to have to ride them always and every time and give them your utmost concentration. Even though they might well have been trained to a high level. They still forget themselves if something more fun appears on their horizon

Couldn't have said this better myself:)

Here's my Arab (he's 14.3, btw:)) (and, yes, I'm buying these photos:))

http://www.dlkillingerphoto.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=514&pos=36

http://www.dlkillingerphoto.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=514&pos=37

cuatx55
Oct. 19, 2007, 09:13 AM
http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee67/cuatx55/horse.jpg


I'm 5-4, horse is 15.2


Spanish bred out of 10th Commandment who showed in country pleasure and in the later years dressage.

Somewhat croup high, but not bad. Can definitely come under herself. I've not heard of a purebred arab over 16h. I wouldn't mind a few more inches, but there is definitely a lot of people who prefer somewhat smaller horses.

Cold Spring Farm
Oct. 19, 2007, 09:54 AM
Here is my little Arabian sport horse (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/?action=view&current=ShenandoahClassicStrongCanter.jpg). He stands an honest 14.3/4 hh (so maybe I do stretch his height a little by saying 14.1hh ;) ). I have been told by a trainer/judge (same person in the photo) that if he was a hand taller we would "win everything"... We have held our own, especially in Sport Horse In-Hand, he is small but mighty :cool:.

He IS a lovely boy!! (And he has a gorgeous 2-yr-old daughter, too!)

twnkltoz
Oct. 19, 2007, 10:44 AM
I may get in trouble here, but I think one of the problems our arabs have is that a lot of arab dressage riders get all of their training from arab trainers, and a lot of those arab trainers don't have the background and experience they need to be teaching and training dressage. They learn how to get the horse through the movements with a head set, so they do ok at lower levels but the horse doesn't get properly trained. Arab dressage riders who get their training from an "open" (that's araby for "non-arab") trainer tend to do better.

Oh, and on the size thing again...when I was talking to my horse's breeder via email before I saw her, she said she was 14.3. I got there and she was 14! She had a growth spurt later that year and now she's 14.1 1/2. She's got a lot of polish in her so I'm hoping she's a late bloomer and she'll get just one more half inch so I can call her 14.2!

ideayoda
Oct. 19, 2007, 11:13 AM
As far as crosses, (polish sporthorse) arabs are regularly crossed out with german warmbloods.

mp
Oct. 19, 2007, 11:25 AM
- Appreciate that I like them :yes:in batting order of my favourite breeds that I would personally most want to own it goes: t/b and then arab and if I was being forced to have only one horse, I'd cheat and have an Anglo-arab.

- Understand purpose breeding and how the Arab horse is supreme and sublime at what it was bred for - and it was speed and endurance - NOT dressage

- Know the competition and how they are bred and conformed and their disposition and why the opposition is intrinsically going to be last in a race with an Arab but ahead of the queue for dressage medals

And as an aside and for the lower levels, considerations might be :winkgrin::

Arabs are just too damned clever to be obedient - they learn bad and wrong just as quickly as they learn good and right.

I've never known one yet that wasn't constantly thinking about getting behind or over the bit and poke its nose off and race and given just the slightest and merest indication

You tend to have to ride them always and every time and give them your utmost concentration. Even though they might well have been trained to a high level. They still forget themselves if something more fun appears on their horizon

Arab owners tend to of different disposition .... indeed I might even say they have personalities :winkgrin:

Excellent summation, Thomas, and all very true. Especially about the "ride every stride" and "thinking all the time." My instructor keeps telling me if I can learn to get my horse working well consistently (i.e., outwit the little SOB on a regular basis) I'll be able to ride any horse well.

Love seeing everyone's "sportin'" Ayrabs. Here's one of mine. His mama was a Polish race horse; his papa was one of those god-awful halter horses that are ruining the breed. ;)

Tootling around at Intro (http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6ce29b3127cce8da1476209ba00000016108AZOGrNm5bs9 ) last year.

Bare naked for the saddle maker (http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d801b3127cce92360aa36a4800000036108AZOGrNm5bs9 ) who pronounced him a "whisky barrel on legs."

And a glamour shot (http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4ce26b3127cce9ef210b61ab200000026108AZOGrNm5bs9 ) because I can't resist showing off his handsome face.

twnkltoz
Oct. 19, 2007, 11:42 AM
Well, since we're sharing. :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v704/twnkltoz/One%20Hot%20Lady/051907%20DAHA/daha051907002.jpg

pintopiaffe
Oct. 19, 2007, 12:29 PM
I may get in trouble here, but I think one of the problems our arabs have is that a lot of arab dressage riders get all of their training from arab trainers, and a lot of those arab trainers don't have the background and experience they need to be teaching and training dressage. They learn how to get the horse through the movements with a head set, so they do ok at lower levels but the horse doesn't get properly trained. Arab dressage riders who get their training from an "open" (that's araby for "non-arab") trainer tend to do better.

But... OTOH, not all FEI trainers have the patience or tact for the Arab either. Some Arabians simply will not tolerate the amount of seat/leg/hand which many riders used to bigger, thicker and perhaps more phlegmatic horses take.

I ended up with a Portuguese trainer--an ideal match.

Here are pics of my 15/16ths Arab guy from 2 years ago, his 1st Level Debut. (I've lost 30lbs since these photos, but know I have 30 more to go...)
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/sons%20of%20the%20wind%20show/

And not to be outdone... his Glam Shot... ;)
http://groups.msn.com/warshorses/gooberponysponies.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1917

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 19, 2007, 12:49 PM
Exvet come on down we'd love to see ya. I think youll be surprised then to see how big sonny has gotten and yes he is taller than both his sire and his dam. He was advertised as 15.3 when I looked at him so I never saw him as small as 15.1 but when we measured without shoes he was just hair under 16h. Now with shoes he meets 16h but Tezmars owner knows that so I dont know whats up.

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/558743300mPmWkT

Here are some older not so very good pics of sonny and I am 5.8.
and without a saddle

http://community.webshots.com/inlinePhoto?photoId=2855519650101143328&src=c&referPage=http%3a%2f%2fgood-times.webshots.com%2fphoto%2f2855519650101143328qN nbRS

Sakura
Oct. 19, 2007, 01:24 PM
He IS a lovely boy!! (And he has a gorgeous 2-yr-old daughter, too!)

Shucks (where is a blushing icon when you need one?) ... now I have to post a photo of her (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/?action=view&current=Nora_Culpeper_6_07.jpg) too ;).

twnkltoz
Oct. 19, 2007, 01:26 PM
Beautiful! All of them!

TeddyRocks
Oct. 19, 2007, 03:01 PM
Excellent summation, Thomas, and all very true. Especially about the "ride every stride" and "thinking all the time." My instructor keeps telling me if I can learn to get my horse working well consistently (i.e., outwit the little SOB on a regular basis) I'll be able to ride any horse well.

Love seeing everyone's "sportin'" Ayrabs. Here's one of mine. His mama was a Polish race horse; his papa was one of those god-awful halter horses that are ruining the breed. ;)

Tootling around at Intro (http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6ce29b3127cce8da1476209ba00000016108AZOGrNm5bs9 ) last year.

Bare naked for the saddle maker (http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5d801b3127cce92360aa36a4800000036108AZOGrNm5bs9 ) who pronounced him a "whisky barrel on legs."

And a glamour shot (http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4ce26b3127cce9ef210b61ab200000026108AZOGrNm5bs9 ) because I can't resist showing off his handsome face.

I was wondering what his lines were. I am a big fan of the Hawk Hill farm lines, and your guy looks a lot like a friend of mines horse, other than my friends being a gray. Before he retired, he had competed very successfully at PSG and I-1 at open dressage shows, but that was probably 8 years plus ago... He is in his mid 20's now and still going strong, just not competing...
THANKS!

exvet
Oct. 19, 2007, 10:41 PM
Exvet come on down we'd love to see ya. I think youll be surprised then to see how big sonny has gotten and yes he is taller than both his sire and his dam. He was advertised as 15.3 when I looked at him so I never saw him as small as 15.1 but when we measured without shoes he was just hair under 16h. Now with shoes he meets 16h but Tezmars owner knows that so I dont know whats up.

Yup that certainly looks like Sonny. Glad he's found a good home. Hopefully I'll get down that way in January.

Cold Spring Farm
Oct. 19, 2007, 10:49 PM
okay -- since we're sharing pictures ( I LOVE sharing pictures!!!!) -- here's my boy.

(BTW - I (the handler in the photo) am 5'9".) In Arabhands, my boy is 16.1, but that blasted stick says 15.3!!! But he's only 2 -- and 16.1 or 16.2 is where the string says he'll end up.)

Gosh it's fun seeing everyone's lovely Arabs!!

http://www.ishoothorses.com/images/image.jpg.php?gallery_id=458&image_url=DSC_8711.jpg&max_w=860&max_h=680

OnTheBit09
Oct. 20, 2007, 01:10 AM
Just to correct a few statements made in regards to the horses at Nelson Farms:

-Mandalay Bay TBA has been "sticked" at 16.1, however-barefoot, it's a safe guess that he is 16 hands. He has not been shown halter, but has been shown very successfully in Sport Horse Under Saddle and is continuing to do well in both Sport Horse and Hunter Pleasure with an Amateur. He is a large, but typey Purebred and aside from his height is well within the breed standards.

-The pinto Tezmar son that was mentioned has also been shown successfully in Sport Horse and though I have not yet "sticked" him, I would estimate that he is probably around the 15.2 to 15.3 hand range. (I can always check this tomorrow.)

Larger Arabians have become more of the trend in the Hunter Pleasure and Sport Horse division, just as larger Quarter Horses have. So long as the horse is conformationally sound and retains some type, I see no problem with breeding larger for different disciplines. Nelson Farms has quite a few large Arabians and Half-Arabians that they have bred and trained and I would be happy to measure any of them in regards to their true height.

-When I asked Sonny's previous owner as to his height, she told me he was probably around 15.3 hands.

Ara, a Thoroughbred grandson of Seattle Slew is the only horse currently on-farm that is over 17 hands.

Ghazzu
Oct. 20, 2007, 07:36 AM
The Late Great Saint Tiger (Araba Tigris)

Sakura
Oct. 20, 2007, 08:17 AM
okay -- since we're sharing pictures ( I LOVE sharing pictures!!!!) -- here's my boy.

(BTW - I (the handler in the photo) am 5'9".) In Arabhands, my boy is 16.1, but that blasted stick says 15.3!!! But he's only 2 -- and 16.1 or 16.2 is where the string says he'll end up.)

Gosh it's fun seeing everyone's lovely Arabs!!

http://www.ishoothorses.com/images/image.jpg.php?gallery_id=458&image_url=DSC_8711.jpg&max_w=860&max_h=680


He is lovely (and quite a big boy!)... wish I had the chance to see him in person... next time for sure! :yes:

grayarabpony
Oct. 20, 2007, 09:17 AM
Ghazzu,

That's a lovely picture.

Thomas_1
Oct. 20, 2007, 10:49 AM
The Late Great Saint Tiger (Araba Tigris) That's a nice looking horse.

Though I've got to admit to first thinking "heck its got weird patternation"

Then I got closer to the screen and put my glasses on duhhhhhhhh its a rug and with zig zags!!! :sadsmile: :)

Oakstable
Oct. 20, 2007, 11:16 AM
http://www.paslowhallarabians.com/

This one is a true 16 hands. Owners moved back to England from California.

Thomas_1
Oct. 20, 2007, 11:22 AM
I'm getting the impression that some of the posters here think its a good thing to have an over sized Arab???

Am I right in this assumption?? And if so, why would anyone want to breed any pure breed that isn't true to its breed standard for conformation ???

Ghazzu
Oct. 20, 2007, 11:24 AM
I'm getting the impression that some of the posters here think its a good thing to have an over sized Arab???

Am I right in this assumption?? And if so, why ???

Your assumption seems to be right, but I'm as puzzled as you are by the reason.

If you want bigger, get something else.
A nice TB, fer instance.
Or maybe an Anglo-Arab.

Thomas_1
Oct. 20, 2007, 11:29 AM
Yep absolutely, get a t/b or anglo arab.

Oakstable
Oct. 20, 2007, 11:37 AM
Gwyddian did extremely well on the show circuit and grew to 16H. I have no idea where the size came from. I knew him from the time he was a foal.

I think Anglo-Arabians are awfully nice but seem to be getting rather rare.

Sakura
Oct. 20, 2007, 11:38 AM
I like 'em short... 15 hh and smaller. The tallest Arabian I own is just shy of 15.2 hh and even I would say that she is a tad rangy... strangely enough I believe the direct translation in my English to Arab-nese Dictionary is rangy = "stretchy" :yes:;):lol: :p

Thomas_1
Oct. 20, 2007, 11:53 AM
I think Anglo-Arabians are awfully nice but seem to be getting rather rare. Hardly! It can't be that difficult to cross an arab with an English T/b

Oakstable
Oct. 20, 2007, 12:09 PM
I realize how you get one, but people do not seem motivated to get that cross anymore.

There was an approved stallion something like Upan de Jarthe (spelling likely wrong) who was put down in Westphalia because he wasn't bringing in enough mares.

Puddin Pie
Oct. 20, 2007, 12:25 PM
And here I was hoping mine had shrunk in his old age so I could get a pony card for him. No such luck, an honest 15 hands on concrete with the dressage trainer's stick with the level and all.

My guy can sit, and can still sit at age 24, but his hocks are a bit creaky these days. We competed successfully through 3rd level (this year). He has a bit of what you might call a "hunters bump" which has become less obvious with his very fit physique. I wish I were as cut as he is now!!!!!! He is the old Double R, Crabbett, Egyptian lines. With some QH thrown in somewhere down the line to make him a 7/8 arab. Wouldn't trade him for ANYTHING!!!

Lafeyarabian
Oct. 20, 2007, 12:53 PM
I too agree with what ideayoda said about arabs needing to be ridden for a while in a longer more streteched out frame. Otherwise, when you hh them they shorten or curl their neck and don't really step under themselves. I think another reason that arabs seem croup high u/s is that many (not all) arabs have a longer loin. With a rider's weight on their back it sinks down which then exaggerates the apparent height of the croup.

I also agree with the person who said that many arabs are ridden by arab trainers that don't have a true dressage background, so many are not ridden in a way that develops them to the best of their ability. Which isn't to say that I think non-arab trainers are best. As somebody has already mentioned, arabs have their own quirks and certainly haven't read the wb dressage manual. What works well with bigger duller horses doesn't necessarily work with arabs.

As for the whole size debate... I confess I breed for size. Do I want a 17H arab no, but I do want a larger one. The reason is I love arabs- their personalities and their look (if you don't include size). I don't want another breed. Having said that my husband is 6'1"; he doesn't fit on 14H's. I also think that larger arabs are more marketable to dressage buyers as opposed to arab buyers. In the open world 16H is the magic number. My arabs are all 15+H. People usually think they are larger than they are because when I say I breed for size I also mean good bone. One arab stallion that I bred to was an honest 16H barefoot. He was an El Shaklan son. I didn't stick him,but I got see him in person. He withers are the same height as me. I'm 5'4" which equals 16H. I know people exaggerate their own height as much as they exaggerate their horse's, but I was "sticked" by my doctor last spring for an insurance related physical. By the way there was nothing course about this stallion. The resulting colt is 2 1/2 now and 15H even.

Auventera Two
Oct. 20, 2007, 02:34 PM
But... OTOH, not all FEI trainers have the patience or tact for the Arab either. Some Arabians simply will not tolerate the amount of seat/leg/hand which many riders used to bigger, thicker and perhaps more phlegmatic horses take.

I was going to post this also. In my experience, it can be difficult to find a trainer who is both willing and capble of training an Arabian. Arabs generally do better with a lighter hand, seat, and leg than most WBs. They generally can't be reined into submission or driven hard with the seat and spurs. They tend to take everything personally and need to be kept mentally engaged more than many horses do. Obviously, as with every horse, each one is an individual.

egontoast
Oct. 20, 2007, 02:48 PM
I think this whole myth about arabians being so different and special and intelligent and more sensitive than wbs and not understood by the run of the mill trainer is a little disingenuos. Have you ever ridden a Trakehner or a Selle Francais, let alone all those other wbs that are not fitting into your favourite stereotype?

They are just horses. They are individuals. They aren't all brain surgeons no more than all wbs are 'phlegmatic'. I always get a chuckle over that one.;)

Lafeyarabian
Oct. 20, 2007, 05:00 PM
Egontoast- the "hottest" horse I own is a dutch/swedish wb mare. Do I think that for arabs to be successful in dressage they need a more than the run of the mill trainer that depends. It's already been pointed out in this post and many others that arabs have until recently been bred for things other than dressage where as wb's have been bred primarily for dressage or jumping. Simply because of the differences in conformation, they will have issues that are different from wb's which some trainers might not have the experience to deal with. Mostly, I just think that it is important for trainers to be aware of that and procede accordingly.

Ghazzu
Oct. 20, 2007, 05:10 PM
IME, it's more of an issue of finding a trainer willing to put up with Arabs and their owners...:D

Renae
Oct. 20, 2007, 05:36 PM
is that many owners tend to cultivate that 4 or 4 1/2 inch hoof that is completely inappropriate and incorrect, and then of course it jacks the height of the horse up by an inch or more.... And then they'd have shoes and leather pads on the feet so that adds another inch to the height.

If they are showing there horses within the specs of the USEF rule book it is not possible that they would have a 4 1/2" toe on an Arab plus another inch of pad and shoe. The maximum toe length is 4 1/2" counting the shoe and pad.

ms raven
Oct. 20, 2007, 06:15 PM
To the OPs original question.

Mostly conformational and further enhanced by training not specific to dressage.

It seems popular practice to breed for arabs with a fine throatlatch, long (often swan) necks, short backs, long hip, flat topline (usually going hand in hand with camped out behinds and poorly angled hip), long loins and lots of action in the trot. So you have horses that have pretty arched necks but can easily curl behind the bit, trot big without lifting their backs and can't get their hocks under themselves and were never trained to do so (in a dressage sense) in the first place.

That said, a flat, dipped or sloping croup has little relation to the angle of the hip if both are taken into consideration when breeding. One can certainly have an arab with a great working hindend that can get up under itself but still have high tail carriage and a flat topline when standing.

Sporthorse classes at arab shows are rather recent and a lot of the horses being shown in them are cross entered and were mostly trained for main ring "arab classes".

My dressage coach considers my mare a "sport horse type", firstly because of her movement, secondly because of her build. She was started dressage, is trained in dressage and shows only dressage (with the odd open flat class thrown in for a little excitement) so she has become more physically developed for dressage. She is far from perfect of course and her faults may likely limit her ability at more advanced levels but we have won classes against arabs with the correctness of her movement despite wrong leads, distraction and spooks. She is in every sense an arab mentally but has never learned the concept of travelling behind the bit, rarely moves ristricted through the shoulders and has been trained to use her back correctly (at least most times when there are no "arab monsters" in sight!).

My mare is 5 years old and 15'0 barefoot and is Crabbet/Polish/Russian. Her sire is 15.2 and when I stood next to him I could have sworn he must have been over 16'0! His owner told me just 15'2 but looked taller because he was short coupled. *shrugs* He also had some decent sized shoes on but in hindsight being short coupled probally lifted his back in the sense that my mare does not generally do when standing. She stands more downhill than up but feels uphill undersadde.

The breed standard is 14.1 to 15.1 and some of the greatest champions of our breed were pony sized horses who appeared larger than life in the ring.

You will start to lose conformational strengths which make the arab a great athlete when they are bred to freakish heights. Sure there are some lines which are larger than others but some of those lines carry terrible faults. A lot of "tall arabs" have god-awful legs, cannons longer than their forearms, hocks up their rear ends and don't generally move as well as an arab which falls within the breed standard size. Not to say ALL of them do but alot do. I really don't understand the need to breed for purebred arabs that are so huge when we are perfectly able to breed beautiful and proportionate half-arabs.

Just my .02

Renae
Oct. 20, 2007, 06:55 PM
I wasn't referring to shown dressage horses. Sorry I wasn't clear. :)

The 4 1/2" toe, counting shoe and pad, applies to every Arabian shown in any sort of class in the Arabian division; halter, park, english pleasure, everything.

If you are showing just in the open dressage division, not any Arabian division, there are no shoeing rules, you can do whatever you want.

Ghazzu
Oct. 20, 2007, 07:37 PM
I wasn't referring to shown dressage horses.

Neither was Renae.

exvet
Oct. 20, 2007, 08:38 PM
Have you ever ridden a Trakehner or a Selle Francais, let alone all those other wbs that are not fitting into your favourite stereotype?

I realize that ponyfixer already pointed out that I'm a little mentally challenged but I was always under the impression (I'm sure you'll correct me if and when I'm wrong) that both of these breeds have a lot of Arab "infusion" if you will. My friend often jokes that both tend to be more anglo arab than anything else. As for what makes an "ayrab" special being more of a fabricated myth perpetuated by those of us who are smitten with them.....well.....they are a breed unto themselves. We might not agree on which characteristics are unique or are special but if they didn't exist one wouldn't know an Arab from a draft breed or their but from a hole in the ground. :eek:

Pony Fixer
Oct. 20, 2007, 10:35 PM
I just caught up with this thread again--you know I was kiddin, exvet, right?

I was actually poking fun at another poster. I do realize, of course, that those from other areas of the US refer to things as "the" where others may not, ie, the 405, the Ohio State, and so on.

Donella
Oct. 20, 2007, 10:46 PM
I'm getting the impression that some of the posters here think its a good thing to have an over sized Arab???

Am I right in this assumption?? And if so, why ???


Alot of people are too big to ride a 14.3 hh horse. I am sorry. I showed arabs for years in my youth and I was so acustomed to the look of the 6 foot saddle seat men on these fine boned, often small horses and when I went back a few years ago to watch regionals I just about barfed. It is not a pretty picture when someone is too big for their horse. That is just my opinion but...it looks really funny and unharmonious.

As for breed type, I was never under the impression a 16 hh arab was incorrect. In fact, my favorite, Soldat who was owned by a good friend of mine (and we used him a few times ourselves) was a true 16hh and wow, was he ever impressive! He was also a top ten halter stallion and I believe he went on to be the number one sire of half arab/sport horses.

Forgive me if I missed something though, I didn't even read the first few pages of the post lol.

petitefilly
Oct. 20, 2007, 11:15 PM
Hey guys, how about the more sturdy Shagya? Not so many croup *problems*, and some very nice stallions. Not many to pick from, but they are great horses.

Look at:
http://www.shagya.net/approvedactivestallions.htm

and
http://www.shagya.net/images/Sterling%20Silver%20AF1.JPG

Now that horse has no butt problems! :)

exvet
Oct. 21, 2007, 12:18 AM
you know I was kiddin, exvet, right?

Well I was hopin' so.....just pokin' fun at myself and yes I know all about the "THE" factor. Try being a NCSU-CVM grad practicing in "THE" Ohio state country ;) lifetime ago but....yup I know all about it.

Alot of people are too big to ride a 14.3 hh horse. I am sorry. I showed arabs for years in my youth and I was so acustomed to the look of the 6 foot saddle seat men on these fine boned, often small horses and when I went back a few years ago to watch regionals I just about barfed. It is not a pretty picture when someone is too big for their horse. That is just my opinion but...it looks really funny and unharmonious.

Don't really disagree; and, it's no different than the laugh I get seein' some of the beer belly riding "cowboys" around here on their 14.1 hand "ropin" horse of one stock breed or another that's downhill and strugglin' to carry the load. Mismatch is mismatch; but, if we're talkin' Arabs that's the beauty of the partbred. Actually I have two breeds that (as purebreds) can carry a six foot individual rather well if they have enough bone and barrel. I try to pick those with enough bone to pull it off even at only 14.1 with only the occasional exception. I can certainly accept the whole "different strokes for different folks" thing but why try to change or go against the breed standard? I'm not sure "the trend" seen in QHs - the bigger, taller, leggier (often appendix) that was eluded to as justification for breeding bigger Arabs has been of great benefit to the QH breed but then I guess it all depends on your prospective. If you're trying to make money I suppose it's OK but at what costs/expense in the long run....if any?.........

ms raven
Oct. 21, 2007, 12:18 AM
Thank you for the link petitefilly. I'm going to hunt for more info on Amurath Samurai because I do like the looks of the two sons on that list, Starwalker and Max. The rest, to me, still have faults similiar to purebred arabs.

KB OMEGA FAHIM ++/ is rather neat too; not heard of him before.

Thomas_1
Oct. 21, 2007, 04:59 AM
I realize that ponyfixer already pointed out that I'm a little mentally challenged but I was always under the impression (I'm sure you'll correct me if and when I'm wrong) that both of these breeds have a lot of Arab "infusion" if you will. You are entirely and absolutely and totally and utterly correct .


Not much difference between a selle francais and an anglo arab at all.

To suggest that there's not any significant difference between a pure bred arab and say a warmblood or something or anything else is to fail to understand the intent and principles of animal husbandry and breeding for breed and type and purpose.

Thomas_1
Oct. 21, 2007, 05:30 AM
Alot of people are too big to ride a 14.3 hh horse. I am sorry. I showed arabs for years in my youth and I was so acustomed to the look of the 6 foot saddle seat men on these fine boned, often small horses and when I went back a few years ago to watch regionals I just about barfed. It is not a pretty picture when someone is too big for their horse. That is just my opinion but...it looks really funny and unharmonious. What a totally bizarre and irrational argument. I'm too big for a welsh section A and I showed those in my early life and still have them. Sooooooooo..... I don't ride them! If I was to breed one that is 14.2 hands, then it would no longer be a welsh section A. It would just be a big pony that isn't true to type. The fact that some big guy inappropriately chooses to ride a small breed, doesn't mean you should then set out to breed larger ones. Heck, following that principle we could end up with 14 hand shetland ponies and what a scarey prospect that would be! :winkgrin:

In the same way I've got a pure bred welsh section D that is a nice looking animal and with good conformation, but.... he's 16 hands and so no way can he be shown in breed classes. He's a useful size horse though and with the typical welsh D temperament etc and that's where his value is but I entirely recognise that he can't ever be a good welsh section D because he's oversized and hence not true to type and not conforming to the breed standard. So he's gelded.


As for breed type, I was never under the impression a 16 hh arab was incorrect And I find it odd that you could have shown them in breed classes without knowing their breed standard!


He was also a top ten halter stallion and I believe he went on to be the number one sire of half arab/sport horses. I haven't got a clue what a "halter stallion" is. We don't have them in Europe.

egontoast
Oct. 21, 2007, 06:08 AM
both of these breeds have a lot of Arab "infusion" if you will.

Yeah well :lol: I mentioned those because of the stereotypes. I could have easily said Dutch, Swedish, Hanno, TB.

Remember all those tsktsk (insert handwringing) HOt sensitive wbs that Anky rides?

pintopiaffe
Oct. 21, 2007, 07:42 AM
They are just horses. They are individuals. They aren't all brain surgeons no more than all wbs are 'phlegmatic'. I always get a chuckle over that one.;)

I said *some* and *sometimes more*... not all.

Yep, ridden Trakehners--some of the best bred in the N'East--Hannoverians, Oldenburgs, and many, many more Arabs, APHA's and crosses. Have also ridden with several BNTs, only one of whom was the right match for the Traks, the high TB/Anglo % Oldenburgs and the Ayerabs. The others wanted far, far more seat and hand than most of my Arabs and 1/2 Arabs will take.

And it's perhaps MORE about build than temperament, baroque vs. WB movement and build. But then we'd be talking French vs. German schools, and I have ridden both, and find there to be differences, while many argue there is no difference.

In my own, very small, but 'people and horses I physically know (not internet, not magazines :lol: ) those who have ridden with REAL French School teachers feel there is a difference. Those who have only ridden German school feel there is not, and then there are the SRS & Portuguese types who really seem to combine the best of the two schools, but again, are a bit different than either school at it's purest.

To say that WB's don't have a reputation, a stereotype for being "perhaps more phlegmatic" is to deny a desired and common trait, just as much as to say that Arabs aren't usually hotter, more sensitive, and prone to curl behind the bit...

Renae
Oct. 21, 2007, 07:51 AM
I haven't got a clue what a "halter stallion" is. We don't have them in Europe.

You might call them something else, but you do have halter stallions in Euroe :) Janow Podlaski stud is always leasing one stallion or another over here to be shown in hand ("halter"). I know they used to raise their Arabs as race horses but now they seem to be focusing on raising horses for showing in hand http://www.janow.arabians.pl/en/ which is a HUGE international market, something popular on every populated continent and these "halter" horses are often shipped around the world through their show and breeding careers. Australia, South America, North America, Europe, the Middle East, Northern Africa and South Africa, you can find what we call halter horses everywhere, and more and more these horses are just becoming Afghan Hounds, led around on a leash all groomed up, never even broke to ride (the real pros exercise all their halter horses on tread mills or in swimming pools).

And as far as "Alot of people are too big to ride a 14.3 hh horse." I guess that is true if you are hugely obese or a freakish giant (sorry to the obese and giants out there) but 14.1-15.1 hand horses are bred around the world for grown men to ride and do work on. Quarter Horses working the ranches across the western U.S. and Canada, Icelandic Horses aiding in men tending the sheep in Iceland, all the horses the men were riding in Mongolia when I watched that special where Julia Roberts went and hung out with them looked to be in that height range, and the orginal use of the Arab was as the Bedouin's war horse. And if you are truly too big for a 14.1-15.1 hand horse buy a Half-Arab.

rcloisonne
Oct. 21, 2007, 09:00 AM
Alot of people are too big to ride a 14.3 hh horse. I am sorry.
Then those folks should look for an Arab cross or a different breed altogether. Why change the purebred Arabian?


As for breed type, I was never under the impression a 16 hh arab was incorrect.
It is incorrect. The breed standard is 14.1 -15.1 with an occasional individual over or under. Key word is occasional. It doesn't mean we should be purposely breeding for 16 handers. I also think it is absolutely detrimental for judges to place taller horses over smaller types because the larger horse is, well, larger. :rolleyes:

rcloisonne
Oct. 21, 2007, 09:03 AM
I haven't got a clue what a "halter stallion" is. We don't have them in Europe.
You might know it as "In Hand" classes and there are many of them in Europe (including the UK).

http://www.arabhorse.com/arabian-horse-events/index.php

http://arabianlines.com/events/Ecaho_shows2007.htm

rcloisonne
Oct. 21, 2007, 09:13 AM
And then we have this "18.3" purebred mare who still has some growing to do. :lol:

7 years old and "started" but “never been rode". Of course. A real bargain at $1,500 for this “Guinness World Record” sized Arabian. ;)

http://www.equinehits.com/horses-for-sale/horse-134045

Cold Spring Farm
Oct. 21, 2007, 09:47 AM
And then we have this "18.3" purebred mare who still has some growing to do. :lol:

7 years old and "started" but “never been rode". Of course. A real bargain at $1,500 for this “Guinness World Record” sized Arabian. ;)

http://www.equinehits.com/horses-for-sale/horse-134045



Ah yes -- there are some for whom that "yahoo" address is truly and completely appropriate!

MistyBlue
Oct. 21, 2007, 09:54 AM
Heck, following that principle we could end up with 14 hand shetland ponies and what a scarey prospect that would be! :winkgrin:

Truly frightening...I shuddered imagining that. Seriously...Mother Nature made them short for a reason...and I strongly suspect that reason is to keep them from taking over the world with some sort of evil equine plan. :winkgrin:
I *love* Shetlands...but they do tend towards tiny bouts of inherent evilness. :lol:

~Freedom~
Oct. 21, 2007, 11:36 AM
And then we have this "18.3" purebred mare who still has some growing to do. :lol:

7 years old and "started" but “never been rode". Of course. A real bargain at $1,500 for this “Guinness World Record” sized Arabian. ;)

http://www.equinehits.com/horses-for-sale/horse-134045

Yes a MARE by the name of HARRY? :eek:


Did they look underneath to be sure?:lol:

Thomas_1
Oct. 21, 2007, 11:53 AM
You might call them something else, but you do have halter stallions in Euroe :) Janow Podlaski stud is always leasing one stallion or another over here to be shown in hand ("halter"). Ah so you just mean its shown in hand. :yes:

Here it would just be a stallion that is shown in hand :)

Tamara in TN
Oct. 21, 2007, 12:00 PM
Ah so you just mean its shown in hand. :yes:

Here it would just be a stallion that is shown in hand :)

yes, but there (as here) he would never ever be shown in anything else...and prob never even broken to ride....nor would his offspring or grandget...as he is "too valuable" as an "in hand/halter" horse

Tamara in TN

Dazednconfused
Oct. 21, 2007, 12:17 PM
yes, but there (as here) he would never ever be shown in anything else...and prob never even broken to ride....nor would his offspring or grandget...as he is "too valuable" as an "in hand/halter" horse

Tamara in TN
That's really not true. It may not be under saddle in whatever your preferred discipline is - but the arabians winning in the halter ring today still very frequently go on to be successful under saddle. I have a very long list of current and not-too-distant past horses that have done both at the regional & National level.

Renae
Oct. 21, 2007, 12:19 PM
That's really not true. It may not be under saddle in whatever your preferred discipline is - but the arabians winning in the halter ring today still very frequently go on to be successful under saddle. I have a very long list of current and not-too-distant past horses that have done both at the regional & National level.

Actually the only reason some of those halter horses used to be shown under saddle is they had to have performance points to show at Nationals in the Senior halter classes. That rule changed last year so now they do not. And in most other countries in the world the Arab halter or in hand horse is never ridden.

mjhco
Oct. 21, 2007, 07:43 PM
If they are showing there horses within the specs of the USEF rule book it is not possible that they would have a 4 1/2" toe on an Arab plus another inch of pad and shoe. The maximum toe length is 4 1/2" counting the shoe and pad.


You need to read your USEF Arabian division rulebook.

6. All horses competing in the Arabian, Half-Arabian, and Anglo-Arabian Hunter, Jumper, Dressage, Eventing, Combined Driving, Working Western, Reining Seat Equitation, Carriage Pleasure Driving and Sport Horse Sections shall be exempt from shoeing regulations.

This does not exempt horses that are cross entered into any other classes

This rule was passed at the convention in Milwaukee 3 years ago.

enjoytheride
Oct. 21, 2007, 07:49 PM
Now is that rule because people that enter those divisions use a shorter toe and no pad because of the nature of the division? Jumping, reining, eventing, and dressage arabs would need a more natural toe (or a toe similar to a non arab in the same discipline) in order to do the work safely and properly?

Renae
Oct. 21, 2007, 07:51 PM
You need to read your USEF Arabian division rulebook.

6. All horses competing in the Arabian, Half-Arabian, and Anglo-Arabian Hunter, Jumper, Dressage, Eventing, Combined Driving, Working Western, Reining Seat Equitation, Carriage Pleasure Driving and Sport Horse Sections shall be exempt from shoeing regulations.

This does not exempt horses that are cross entered into any other classes

This rule was passed at the convention in Milwaukee 3 years ago.

I know my rules. You read my posts incorrectly. The person who was originally posting about foot lengths was trying to sound so knowledgeable talking about Arabian show horses with 4 1/2" toes PLUS another inch of pads and shoe. I pointed out you can not show in the Arabian show classes ith that much toe, the MAX is 4 1/2" inches counting the pad and shoe, and in most cases people aren't pushing the max.

Renae
Oct. 21, 2007, 07:53 PM
Now is that rule because people that enter those divisions use a shorter toe and no pad because of the nature of the division? Jumping and dressage arabs would need a more natural toe (or a toe similar to a non arab in the same discipline) in order to do the work safely and properly?

The shoeing rules do not apply to reiners to that they may use their sliding plates (which would not fall into the legal shoe size). The shoeing rules do not apply to jumpers and eventers so that they may use studs. With the other divisions it is presumed that they do not usually shoe in a way that pushes the envelope, but if they routinely did the shoeing rule is always open to change.

mjhco
Oct. 21, 2007, 08:01 PM
Now is that rule because people that enter those divisions use a shorter toe and no pad because of the nature of the division? Jumping, reining, eventing, and dressage arabs would need a more natural toe (or a toe similar to a non arab in the same discipline) in order to do the work safely and properly?

THe exemptions for those classes listed are because there is NO advantage to using 'clown' shoes in these divisions.

And the exemptions are also to accommodate those horses who could not be shod according to the old rules and still be sound. (Old rule was a maximum 14 ounce shoe and a maximum 4 1/2 inch toe no matter what the size of the animal).

My own horse wears a size 5 shoe that out of the box weighs 21 ounces. And his shoes were used as examples of why the old rules were discriminatory against the larger horses.

pintopiaffe
Oct. 21, 2007, 08:38 PM
mjhco--please tell me you've got a half-arab! SIZE 5!! Wow.

What's the cross?

mjhco
Oct. 21, 2007, 08:41 PM
mjhco--please tell me you've got a half-arab! SIZE 5!! Wow.

What's the cross?

1/2 Arab 1/2 Percheron. 16 2. 1500 pounds. Wears 84 or 87 inch blanket. 58 inch long girth. Big enough to make me look like a normal size person. And he has many relatives that are of his size or bigger.

We competed Prix St. Georges this year (we earned my Silver rider medal together). We will go I1 next year.

pintopiaffe
Oct. 21, 2007, 08:43 PM
How cool is that? One of my all time favorite horses was 1/2 Arab, 1/2 Perch. I coveted him like no other horse I've known.

Do you have pics?

That is VERY cool. :yes:

DancingSeahorse
Oct. 21, 2007, 09:02 PM
1/2 Arab 1/2 Percheron. 16 2. 1500 pounds. Wears 84 or 87 inch blanket. 58 inch long girth. Big enough to make me look like a normal size person. And he has many relatives that are of his size or bigger.

We competed Prix St. Georges this year (we earned my Silver rider medal together). We will go I1 next year.

Sounds really cool!
Pics please.

Thomas_1
Oct. 22, 2007, 03:09 AM
And for sure its definitely NOT the norm to have a horse: arab, stallion or otherwise that is only ever just shown in hand and never ridden or doing anything else.

Here it would be considered most odd if someone had a horse that was only ever shown and never ridden and indeed it would be considered detrimental in terms of marketing a stallion for use at stud.

caffeinated
Oct. 22, 2007, 06:38 AM
heh, thomas, you mean you haven't seen the Quarter Horse "halter" phenomenon (http://bp3.blogger.com/_uT-i4wrm9Ec/RxoXxLcveqI/AAAAAAAAAwo/iItXl40K9mM/s1600-h/ckkid.jpg)?

They're actually bred for traits that make them poor riding candidates. It'll make your head spin.

MistyBlue
Oct. 22, 2007, 07:44 AM
AQHA and APHA think horses conformed in a mutation of their breed ideal are loverly....as long as they're beefy and overly muscular they need not have straight legs or be sound, the judges will pin them anyways. And then they'll go on to have high earning lifetimes as breeding stallions...whether they carry a deadly genetic disease or not.
It's also preferrable that these massive animals have teeny tiny feet...many stallion standers brag in their ads of their horse weighing 1300 lbs with size 00 feet.
Would you want to ride this poor fellow:
http://www.doubleshorseranch.com/reference%20sires/mightyawesomead.jpg

Sakura
Oct. 22, 2007, 08:14 AM
And for sure its definitely NOT the norm to have a horse: arab, stallion or otherwise that is only ever just shown in hand and never ridden or doing anything else.

Here it would be considered most odd if someone had a horse that was only ever shown and never ridden and indeed it would be considered detrimental in terms of marketing a stallion for use at stud.

The sad truth is that it is very much the norm. Somewhere along the line someone's brainchild was to market Arabians as "living art"... this has led us down the road to the modern day halter horse... I like Liz Salmon's description of the Main Ring halter horse "a sausage on toothpicks". These horses are deemed "too valuable" to ride... but chances are their brains are too fried and traumatized from all the razzing, shanking and whipping from their halter days that putting them under saddle would be an uphill battle. Not to say all halter horses can't go on to be successful riding horses (my mare is proof of that... as a matter of fact she was shown both halter and under saddle at the same shows), however the overall mentality (at least with owners and trainers I have met) is ~why bother?~.

Trixie's mom
Oct. 22, 2007, 08:35 AM
To those individuals who think arab halter horses are not ridden I am here to tell you they are...a lot. Just because they don't show in the peformance arena doesn't mean they are not rideable. I worked for Greg Gallun on and off riding/exercising his halter horses. I got the joy of riding them all over Ventura Farms- 2500 acres of hills and rolling pastures. The thrill of galloping a fiery stallion (this sounds like a hokey novel) is something to experience...

mp
Oct. 22, 2007, 10:42 AM
The sad truth is that it is very much the norm. Somewhere along the line someone's brainchild was to market Arabians as "living art"... this has led us down the road to the modern day halter horse... I like Liz Salmon's description of the Main Ring halter horse "a sausage in toothpicks". These horses are deemed "too valuable" to ride... but chances are their brains are too fried and traumatized from all the razzing, shanking and whipping from their halter days that putting them under saddle would be an uphill battle. Not to say all halter horses can't go on to be successful riding horses (my mare is proof of that... as a matter of fact she was shown both halter and under saddle at the same shows), however the overall mentality (at least with owners and trainers I have met) is ~why bother?~.

They don't bother because it costs $40-$50K at least to campaign a halter horse to the national level. If your horse does well -- Top Ten or better -- there is no financial benefit to putting more money into showing the horse. People will want to breed to him anyway. They're not shown because they're crazy -- it's just too damned expensive. Complain about how they're shown (I certainly do) but don't dismiss halter horses themselves as all crap.

Of the three halter horses I bred to, only one was shown under saddle. The other two were never shown in performance. And that includes Monogramm, who was imported to Poland and sired some of the European halter champions that Liz Salmon likes to crow about as so superior to the horses in this country.

The "living art" BS is mostly the brainchild of the Pyramid Society. Go to their big show and the halter classes outnumber performance classes 10 to 1. In the under saddle classes, it's last one still on gets the blue. Just kidding ... sorta. :D

Sakura
Oct. 22, 2007, 01:07 PM
A size 5 shoe on a purebred Arab? You sure about that?

She already stated that her horse is a Perch/Arab cross.

My little 14 hander wears a size 1 shoe though :). My farrier was quite surprised... said he shoes some TBs and QHs that don't even wear a size 1.

egontoast
Oct. 22, 2007, 01:07 PM
A size 5 shoe on a purebred Arab? You sure about that?

Are YOU sure you read what she wrote?

Dawn J-L
Oct. 22, 2007, 01:28 PM
I am late to the party and could jump in at many different points, but I picked this one:


Got to admit I'm somewhat biased towards Arabs and anglo-arabs. Always liked them and always will do.

(snip)I'd also say that a dressage horse well trained and balanced moves with the hind quarters lowered and the hind limbs acting underneath its body, and with an elevated forehand with the neck raised and arched and in terms of conformation the Arab is setting out disadvantaged IN COMPARISON to other breeds.

And every time I post about why I think a breed can or can't do something I ordinarily end up in some sort of debate with someone who insists that their little "floss" who is of the breed I mentioned is fantastic. I also get accused of being a terrible person because I must hate their chosen breed !

So BEFORE that happens this time and specifically for those who might be tempted :no:

- Appreciate that I like them :yes:in batting order of my favourite breeds that I would personally most want to own it goes: t/b and then arab and if I was being forced to have only one horse, I'd cheat and have an Anglo-arab.

- Understand purpose breeding and how the Arab horse is supreme and sublime at what it was bred for - and it was speed and endurance - NOT dressage

- Know the competition and how they are bred and conformed and their disposition and why the opposition is intrinsically going to be last in a race with an Arab but ahead of the queue for dressage medals

And as an aside and for the lower levels, considerations might be :winkgrin::

Arabs are just too damned clever to be obedient - they learn bad and wrong just as quickly as they learn good and right.

I've never known one yet that wasn't constantly thinking about getting behind or over the bit and poke its nose off and race and given just the slightest and merest indication

You tend to have to ride them always and every time and give them your utmost concentration. Even though they might well have been trained to a high level. They still forget themselves if something more fun appears on their horizon

Arab owners tend to of different disposition .... indeed I might even say they have personalities :winkgrin:

Unfortunately, your generalizations about the structural and tempermental traits that make *all* Arabian unsuited for "real" capability as upper level dressage horses does not line up with my experiences with select individuals. FWIW, I come from a background of riding and working with WB's (KWPN, Trak, and Hanos mostly) so I applied my understanding of what makes a good dressage prospect in the open world to what I saw --and felt-- in some Arabians that I rode.

Contrary to your experience that all Arabs are looking for a way to physically and mentally evade their rider, I found that the ones I was riding were incredibly generous and obediant (particularly when compared to the intense willfulness and resistant disobediance of some individuals from a certain line of the KWPN horses I was riding at the time.). It was that rideability in conjunction with their athleticism and correct structure that sold me on the Arabians that I chose to start to purpose breed for dressage. (My program is just starting so it will take me a few years to *prove* that there are some Arabs that can be wonderful upper level mounts. Give me and the others who are purposebreeding for dressage Arabs a little time. <wink> Others have mentioned some current Arabs competeing a the FEI levels, and I know that there have been others in past decades, but it is true that there has been very little --but not none--purpose breeding for dressage until recently.)

I went to my first Arab show last month (the Sport Horse Nationals) and saw both Arabs with the structural problems that make them less ideal for dressage (narrow bodies, level hips, short hips, high hocks, croup high, etc.) and some Arabs that were more correctly conformed for the strength and carriage required of an upper level horse.

It really is true that a horse (of whatever breed) that has the correct structure to make it easy/natural to move like a dressage horse even before going under saddle will be easier to train. Combining the correct structure with a good work ethic and a relaxed, but curious mind gets you an Arab like this youngster:

The first two photos show my then 3 1/2 year old stallion at liberty showing how naturally "through" he is. The third photo is of him and my instructor (an open FEI rider/trainer) riding him in a walk/trot test at his first show just 2 months after he was started under saddle this year. (BTW, those first two months under saddle were interrupted by his first season as a breeding stallion, but his work ethic under saddle and ground manners remained exemplary.) The 4th photo is of him a month later (last week) after another month of being under saddle. The last photo is of him cantering outside for the first time (he'd cantered in the indoor on twice). You may want to note how relaxed and happy both the horse and his rider are in every shot. That's this stallion's natural demeanor and incredible work ethic and rideability showing. Sure he's not an advanced horse at this point, but he disproves your contention that Arabians are incapable of possessing the ablity to have any tendency to be "round" "through" "willing" "relaxed" "elastic" or correctly conformed for dressage. He's not the only horse in my herd who exhibits an abundance of traits that are desirable in "real" dressage horses. ;-) He is among the shortest at an honest 14H and 1/2inches barefoot.

mp
Oct. 22, 2007, 01:57 PM
Actually, being a "Halter Horse" and "shown in hand" can be two different things. I've shown my Arab mare in hand, but she certainly isn't a Halter horse. Being a "Halter horse" generally means that the horse is purposely bred and trained for Halter, and that is that horse's job. Or horses can be multi-discipline and earn points in different divisions, which may include Halter, and something else.

I've shown Sporthorse in Hand in the morning, and turned around and shown the same horse in ridden dressage classes in the afternoon. "Halter" is a specific division. And some breeds call them Model classes. Like Minis and TWHs.

You generally hear the term "In Hand" associated with dressage shows. To my knowledge, the term "Halter class" isn't used at dressage shows.

But in the U.S. Halter does have a different meaning than In Hand because there are whole Halter divisions, breeding programs, barns, trainers, etc. and that's ALL the horses do, or at least it's a major part of their show careers.

"Halter" at an Arabian Class A/regional or national show is for fillies, mares, colts and stallions. Geldings are shown "in hand" (except for yearlings) because originally the halter classes were started to showcase breeding animals only. If you showed your filly "in hand" then it wasn't at a USEF-recognized Arabian show.

Lots of people show horses in halter that weren't specifically bred for it. It's a good way to show off a nice young horse if you want to sell him. Or get him used to being at a show when he's too young to ride.

I've already called BS on the "halter horses are too crazy to ride" theory. But I'm happy to do it again. If they achieve success in halter, most aren't shown under saddle because it's very expensive and they won't command any higher stud fees because they've been shown in performance.

There are exceptions, however, such as Concensus. He was a reserve national champion stallion who won at the national level in saddleseat and also cleans up at SHIH and SHUS. *Emanor, also a NC in halter, won under saddle as well. Millennium LOA, who was the last "triple crown" halter winner, was a regional champion in saddleseat before he died from colic at age 7.

And if the "driving" Arab that had 5" feet was being shown, the show stewards in your area aren't doing their jobs. I've seen them measure hooves and weigh shoes at the outgate at some of the shows I've attended.

mjhco
Oct. 22, 2007, 02:11 PM
Sounds really cool!
Pics please.

Here is one with my trainer.

Dawn J-L
Oct. 22, 2007, 02:33 PM
I'd also say that a dressage horse well trained and balanced moves with the hind quarters lowered and the hind limbs acting underneath its body, and with an elevated forehand with the neck raised and arched and in terms of conformation the Arab is setting out disadvantaged IN COMPARISON to other breeds.


I really don't mean to be beating up on Thomas_1, but he's given me such good meaty bits for rebuttal! ;-)

Here's a montage I made a while ago to demonstrate how some Arabians already have a style of movement and natural carriage that is far more like that of good WB's than it is like that of the stereotypical "dressage challenged" Arabian. There are two of my dressage type Arabians--my stallion and an unrelated foal, the Hanoverian stallion, Weltmeyer (a personal favorite), a high caliber Weltmeyer foal, and an Arabian and an Arabian foal that show more of what folks mean when they say Arabians tend to be tight, inverted, trailing hindquarters, etc. as compared to what is ideally desired for dressage. The photos were selected to show the adult horses in the same phase as the other mature horses and the foals in the same phase as each other for the clearest comparisons.

Renae
Oct. 22, 2007, 02:49 PM
Interesting.

I personally know of one carriage driving Arabian who has a 5 inch hoof from coronary band to ground at the dorsal wall. It was measured with a cloth tape by the farrier I work with. The horse is a multi time champion, competes all the time, and when he went unilaterally lame, the owners wanted to know "what on earth is wrong" so they called out for a second opinion. The measurement included the shoe and leather pad.

I've been told on this forum before that it's impossible for Arabs to have feet that big by show rules, but obviously they do.

Well if the horse is showing in CARRIAGE DRIVING it is exempt from the Arabian division shoeing rules. So you were dealing with a carriage driving show horse and carriage driving people who felt that that was the way they wanted to shoe. If the same horse was crossed entered into an Arabian division its shoeing would have to change to conform wtih Arabian division rules. Since you are an equine podiatrist maybe you should take the time to read the soeing rules for the various breeds and disciplines covered by the USEF as most farriers do.

Sakura
Oct. 22, 2007, 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Thomas_1 http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2748333#post2748333)
I'd also say that a dressage horse well trained and balanced moves with the hind quarters lowered and the hind limbs acting underneath its body, and with an elevated forehand with the neck raised and arched and in terms of conformation the Arab is setting out disadvantaged IN COMPARISON to other breeds.


Yes he (http://s58.photobucket.com/albums/g278/Copperleaf/?action=view&current=Blackplaying.jpg) is out of shape and dirty in this pic, but I would say that he has pretty good self carriage. And I'll be the first to say that he is not level... he is probably about an 3/4" - 1" higher behind... but he does the best he can with what he has ;).

TeddyRocks
Oct. 22, 2007, 08:59 PM
Hey guys, how about the more sturdy Shagya? Not so many croup *problems*, and some very nice stallions. Not many to pick from, but they are great horses.

Look at:
http://www.shagya.net/approvedactivestallions.htm

and
http://www.shagya.net/images/Sterling%20Silver%20AF1.JPG

Now that horse has no butt problems! :)

Here is a horse that is resgistered Shagya, and he is INCREDIBLE... No butt high here...
http://jacksondressage.com/windfall%20sales.htm

Dawn J-L
Oct. 22, 2007, 09:34 PM
Hey guys, how about the more sturdy Shagya? Not so many croup *problems*, and some very nice stallions. Not many to pick from, but they are great horses.


I like Shagya's a lot.

I do however dispute the implication that there aren't some Arabians that are as "sturdy" and with as good hind ends as can be found in Shagya's. I've seen purebred Arabians that cannot be distinguished from a good Shagya ('cept the Arabians tend to be a bit shorter on average than a typical Shagya).

JackSprats Mom
Oct. 22, 2007, 11:32 PM
EGON-
I think this whole myth about arabians being so different and special and intelligent and more sensitive than wbs and not understood by the run of the mill trainer is a little disingenuos. Have you ever ridden a Trakehner or a Selle Francais, let alone all those other wbs that are not fitting into your favourite stereotype?


I grew up riding Warmbloods and TB's. I currently handle 3 Arab stallions, one Dutchwarmblood stallion (highest ratedat his kuering with a special mention:winkgrin:) and one Fresian stallion.

I can tell you, Arabs are a little different. Prior to my current horse I had never owned an Arab or really ridden any so I'm pretty unbiased. They are a whole other ride compared to a TB or WB.

The reason I mention the above stallions is cause they show the difference especially during breeding. The Arabs go into the breeding shed and are HOT and done in 5 mins. The Fresian almost falls asleep on the job (not kidding) and the WB takes soft music, dimmed lights and ...ok ok I'm kidding with that one but talk about LAID back.

There are individuals within ALL breeds that are not the norm but WBs tend to do better in dressage partly because of their temprement and there ability to be pushed a little more. Arabs take more brains to ride, more negotiation.... JMO.

Dawn J-L
Oct. 23, 2007, 01:04 AM
EGON-
I grew up riding Warmbloods and TB's. I currently handle 3 Arab stallions, one Dutchwarmblood stallion (highest ratedat his kuering with a special mention:winkgrin:) and one Fresian stallion.

I can tell you, Arabs are a little different. Prior to my current horse I had never owned an Arab or really ridden any so I'm pretty unbiased.

If you haven't already made up your mind then why are you insinuating that:


So why do so many arabs travel croup high?

I see it even in horses going solid 3rd and 4th. It seem particular to this breed of horse and I'm wondering what predisposes them to it?

Thanks

Then you competely ignore the examples people posted that showed Arabians that were not croup high and that were correct and through in their movement under saddle (not all the posted examples showed such horses, but many did).

It really seems that you are trying to get folks to start trashing all Arabs as being structurally and temperamentally unsuited to dressage. People gave you several good explanations of why many Arabs do travel croup high, as well as providing examples that demonstrate that not all Arabs travel croup high.

After your OP regarding what you seem to perceive to be a universal structural flaw of the breed, now you are apparently moving on to describing your perception of the breed's nearly universal tempermental flaws.


They are a whole other ride compared to a TB or WB.

The reason I mention the above stallions is cause they show the difference especially during breeding. The Arabs go into the breeding shed and are HOT and done in 5 mins. The Fresian almost falls asleep on the job (not kidding) and the WB takes soft music, dimmed lights and ...ok ok I'm kidding with that one but talk about LAID back.

There are individuals within ALL breeds that are not the norm but WBs tend to do better in dressage partly because of their temprement and there ability to be pushed a little more. Arabs take more brains to ride, more negotiation.... JMO.

Do you really think ALL Arabians are "hot" in the breeding shed because the three you have experience with are "hot"? I too grew up w/ WB's and TB's and have found a wide spectrum of temperament and work ethics among them as well as among the Arabians I've encountered. IME, one can often generalize more accurately about specific bloodlines within a breed/registry rather than one can about entire breeds--particularly a breed as diverse as Arabians or (not truly breeds, but types) contemporary WB's. For instance, if I thought that all KWPN's were aggressive/hot horses based on one family line that I had handled and rode in the 1990's, I'd be doing the KWPN registry a huge disservice wouldn't I?

I don't think that because my Arab stallion (as well as the rest of my herd of 14 Arabians, actually) is incredibly quiet minded with excellent rideability that all Arabs are like that, but because that kind of temperament IS characteristic of his particular bloodlines I know that he is not a mere fluke, but a true representation of a particular sub-group of Arabians. I switched to Arabians of these particular bloodlines *FROM* WB's exactly because they were so easy to ride and train--particularly when they also have the correct structure to make dressage work "natural" for them. That they are intelligent is a beneficial thing; once they understand what you are asking they will do it without needing to be drilled and drilled and drilled. That's an advantage in my book. :-) Today, I got on one of my mares that had three months off from riding. No resistances, no spooks, just went on the aids and went to work like she hadn't had a break. That kind of mind is why I just love these particular Arabians.

None of us are saying that the 'average' Arabian is going to have the structure, movement, and rideability to have the ability to become a competitive upper level dressage horse. Nor are we saying that in general WB's haven't been more successful in dressage competion. What we are saying is that there exist a small subset of Arabians that do have the necessary traits to be capable of good upper level work.

ms raven
Oct. 23, 2007, 03:38 AM
My arab is as calm as can be for the most part. She needs to be "pushed into" the bridle and not held onto for dear life and can have 2-3 weeks off to be hacked about bareback in the midst of crazy-horse weather.

There are exceptions to all "standards" and generalizations and certainly an arabian has a sense of self-preservation like no other. They are the original war-horse, they are athletic, they are quick and they are smart enough to expect respect and are stubborn enough to demand fairness. My mare never tries to duck behind the bit but if she becomes argumentative; 99% of the time it is my fault, my hands and she is telling me to get my act together.

Not all arabs should be painted with the same brush and it is fair to say they are not for everyone. What they may lack in physical suitability they certainly make up for in heart and determination.

Attaching a few pics of my pride and joy at 3 years, her unprofessional "glam shot" in all her craziness :) .

Ghazzu
Oct. 23, 2007, 07:30 AM
The reason I mention the above stallions is cause they show the difference especially during breeding. The Arabs go into the breeding shed and are HOT and done in 5 mins. The Fresian almost falls asleep on the job (not kidding) and the WB takes soft music, dimmed lights and ...ok ok I'm kidding with that one but talk about LAID back.



My late Arab stallion personified laid back in a breeding situation.
He once approached a mare who, though in estrus, squealed at him, turned away from her, let out a big sigh, and laid down in the sand to sun himself.

Sakura
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:20 AM
My late Arab stallion personified laid back in a breeding situation.
He once approached a mare who, though in estrus, squealed at him, turned away from her, let out a big sigh, and laid down in the sand to sun himself.

I handle my stallion when he covers mares. He is such a Casanova... he nickers and nuzzles, does his thing and tries to "snuggle" after the act. Although I have witnessed more vocal and animated stallions (Arabians) I have never seen anything that I would consider over the top or aggressive (I am sure it happens). I have however heard of some rank TB and Paint stallions that couldn't even be handled but required a breeding chute and protective gear for the mare.

mp
Oct. 23, 2007, 10:56 AM
It really seems that you are trying to get folks to start trashing all Arabs as being structurally and temperamentally unsuited to dressage. People gave you several good explanations of why many Arabs do travel croup high, as well as providing examples that demonstrate that not all Arabs travel croup high.

After your OP regarding what you seem to perceive to be a universal structural flaw of the breed, now you are apparently moving on to describing your perception of the breed's nearly universal tempermental flaws.


No one is trashing Arabians or inviting anyone else to. As a long-time Arabian owner, I was enjoying this discussion, the photos and the lack of indignant "NOT SO!!!!!!" on the part of Arabian enthusiasts ... until you started picking apart Thomas' posts and taking great umbrage at the OP's experiences.

I can appreciate that you're passionate about the breed -- I am, too. You're proud of your horses, and the CMK lines (Al Marah-bred and others) do produce nice athletes. But please don't prove my theory that the biggest problem with Arabian horses is their owners.

PS -- CMK doesn't have the market cornered on Arabians that are good-minded riding horses. My horses (mostly Polish, mind you) are all "above average" too. ;)

Auventera Two
Oct. 23, 2007, 11:25 AM
But please don't prove my theory that the biggest problem with Arabian horses is their owners.

The biggest problem with ANY horse is usually its owner. :lol:

Dazednconfused
Oct. 23, 2007, 11:38 AM
Actually the only reason some of those halter horses used to be shown under saddle is they had to have performance points to show at Nationals in the Senior halter classes. That rule changed last year so now they do not. And in most other countries in the world the Arab halter or in hand horse is never ridden.

Please read my post, Renae.

I said REGIONAL AND NATIONAL LEVEL.

Meaning they were successful at both at the REGIONAL OR NATIONAL level. Should I start listing horses for you?

First Cyte
Emanor
CA Hermoso
Gorgias Georg
Millenium LOA
Baywatch V
NNL Ultimate Bey
Alada Psynergy VF

They are *NOT* the minority, and the halter bashing can stop any day now :no: I realize that it may not be this board's 'forte' but you don't need to insult the whole discipline or give people the wrong impression. If I didn't have to go here in a few moments - the above list would be ten times as long.

Dazednconfused
Oct. 23, 2007, 11:44 AM
They don't bother because it costs $40-$50K at least to campaign a halter horse to the national level. If your horse does well -- Top Ten or better -- there is no financial benefit to putting more money into showing the horse. People will want to breed to him anyway. They're not shown because they're crazy -- it's just too damned expensive. Complain about how they're shown (I certainly do) but don't dismiss halter horses themselves as all crap.

Of the three halter horses I bred to, only one was shown under saddle. The other two were never shown in performance. And that includes Monogramm, who was imported to Poland and sired some of the European halter champions that Liz Salmon likes to crow about as so superior to the horses in this country.

The "living art" BS is mostly the brainchild of the Pyramid Society. Go to their big show and the halter classes outnumber performance classes 10 to 1. In the under saddle classes, it's last one still on gets the blue. Just kidding ... sorta. :D

I absolutely agree.

Liz Salmon = :dead: Not a fan - I wouldn't give much credence to anything she had to say about any American horse (halter OR performance). :winkgrin:

Renae
Oct. 23, 2007, 01:08 PM
Please read my post, Renae.

I said REGIONAL AND NATIONAL LEVEL.

Meaning they were successful at both at the REGIONAL OR NATIONAL level. Should I start listing horses for you?

First Cyte
Emanor
CA Hermoso
Gorgias Georg
Millenium LOA
Baywatch V
NNL Ultimate Bey
Alada Psynergy VF

They are *NOT* the minority, and the halter bashing can stop any day now :no: I realize that it may not be this board's 'forte' but you don't need to insult the whole discipline or give people the wrong impression. If I didn't have to go here in a few moments - the above list would be ten times as long.


I have had horses do well in both halter and performance, but it id usualy performance bloodlines that can occasionally produce a horse that does both, hlater bloodlines rarely produce very theltic horses that would be suitable for a very athletic discipline like dressage. Most of the halter bloodline horses who do performance do hunter pleasure or western pleasure, 3 gaits on the rail while posing and looking pretty.

Thomas_1
Oct. 23, 2007, 01:52 PM
I really don't mean to be beating up on Thomas_1, but he's given me such good meaty bits for rebuttal! ;-)
I won't take it that way either because at the end of the day I said Arabs are what I'd choose to own and its clear you didn't read the entire content and spirit and context of what I wrote. :winkgrin:

Thomas_1
Oct. 23, 2007, 01:58 PM
Unfortunately, your generalizations about the structural and tempermental traits that make *all* Arabian unsuited for "real" capability as upper level dressage horses does not line up with my experiences with select individuals. So we're in agreement then. I said there'd be exceptional individuals :winkgrin: And, by the way, I've had several pure bred Arabs who did a pretty good job at intermediate and advanced dressage and including whooping the ass off some Warmbloods.


FWIW, I come from a background of riding and working with WB's (KWPN, Trak, and Hanos mostly) so I applied my understanding of what makes a good dressage prospect in the open world to what I saw --and felt-- in some Arabians that I rode. What level?


Contrary to your experience that all Arabs are looking for a way to physically and mentally evade their rider, Never said it, never thought it!

Thomas_1
Oct. 23, 2007, 02:00 PM
Interesting.

I personally know of one carriage driving Arabian who has a 5 inch hoof from coronary band to ground at the dorsal wall. It was measured with a cloth tape by the farrier I work with. The horse is a multi time champion, competes all the time, and when he went unilaterally lame, the owners wanted to know "what on earth is wrong" so they called out for a second opinion. The measurement included the shoe and leather pad.

I've been told on this forum before that it's impossible for Arabs to have feet that big by show rules, but obviously they do.

Competes in what???

Pleasure driving classes?
CDE? (doubt it with a foot like that though!)
Breed Classes?


Actually, being a "Halter Horse" and "shown in hand" can be two different things. I've shown my Arab mare in hand, but she certainly isn't a Halter horse. Being a "Halter horse" generally means that the horse is purposely bred and trained for Halter, and that is that horse's job. To me, that's as clear as mud.

In the English language a Halter is another name for a Head Collar. Or you might use it as a verb To Halter which meant you put a headcollar on a horse.


Or horses can be multi-discipline and earn points in different divisions, which may include Halter, and something else. I'm not surprised at that at all. Horses here are often shown in "in hand classes" and then in ridden classes.


I've shown Sporthorse in Hand in the morning, and turned around and shown the same horse in ridden dressage classes in the afternoon Here the word "shown" is only used when its a class which judges presentation and conformation.

And the word "competition" is used for classes whereby you are judging ridden work. So here Dressage isn't a show its a competition


You generally hear the term "In Hand" associated with dressage shows. How do you do dressage "in hand"???? Or do you mean short rein or long rein?

Sakura
Oct. 23, 2007, 03:31 PM
Thomas1,

Showing Halter...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDToA6jpoWE


Showing In-Hand (AKA Sport Horse In-Hand)... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGylgk2lT8Q

NOT MY HORSE, I'm not advertising... just happened to be the best representation I could find on youtube

Dazednconfused
Oct. 23, 2007, 03:31 PM
I have had horses do well in both halter and performance, but it id usualy performance bloodlines that can occasionally produce a horse that does both, hlater bloodlines rarely produce very theltic horses that would be suitable for a very athletic discipline like dressage. Most of the halter bloodline horses who do performance do hunter pleasure or western pleasure, 3 gaits on the rail while posing and looking pretty.

I don't think that's quite fair, Renae. Not everyone is interested in dressage or jumpers or endurance. That's why there are different kinds of horses for all kinds of people. While I don't think anyone will argue that say, a hunter pleasure horse, or a western pleasure horse is quite at the athletic level of an upper level horse - plenty of time and money and training goes into them too, and they are just as valid in the scheme of things. In addition, arabians have not been bred for very long as dressage mounts (with a few exceptions, of course - but the bulk of breeding has not been focused towards dressage, from the desert forward). So the bloodlines that are successful are quite varied.

Also, since we're talking about halter bloodlines - I find it utterly fascinating that Bey Shah (a stallion I consider to be a quintessential halter sire) bloodlines dominate the Sporthorse Nationals. Showkayce, Soldat, etc etc etc. Very interesting.:lol:

pintopiaffe
Oct. 23, 2007, 06:01 PM
My late Arab stallion personified laid back in a breeding situation.
He once approached a mare who, though in estrus, squealed at him, turned away from her, let out a big sigh, and laid down in the sand to sun himself.

I loff that.

I have to say, my guy (yes, he's only 15/16ths Arab) is the kindest, most impeccably honest horse I have ever met. He has never once said *no* to me. He has said, I can't, I don't know how, or I'm terrified... but never no. And he puts up with my learning this stuff WITH him... it takes a special horse, IMO, to put up with the amateur training her first horse up the levels almost by herself.

twnkltoz
Oct. 23, 2007, 06:13 PM
I loff that.

I have to say, my guy (yes, he's only 15/16ths Arab) is the kindest, most impeccably honest horse I have ever met. He has never once said *no* to me. He has said, I can't, I don't know how, or I'm terrified... but never no. And he puts up with my learning this stuff WITH him... it takes a special horse, IMO, to put up with the amateur training her first horse up the levels almost by herself.
Ditto, my girl is so kind and accepting! Oh, she has her moments when she'd much rather run in a straight line than do a nice, balanced circle, but she puts up with a lot of crap from me as I try to figure it all out so I can teach her! Pretty good for a 6yo baby.

egontoast
Oct. 23, 2007, 06:24 PM
My hanno/trak cross never says no either . He's sweet, sensitive , intelligent , kind, very forward, very willing, not spooky, tries hard, etc etc etc.
BLAHBLAHBLAH

I think the whole Arab cult thing is a little over done.

It's a horse, just like the Saturn is a car except to the Saturn cult people.

Regular horse people will pose a question " MY horse has a temperature, etc" Ayrab people say " MY ARAB has a temperature...." Um, OK. Get over the arab part.

rcloisonne
Oct. 23, 2007, 06:57 PM
I'm not surprised at that at all. Horses here are often shown in "in hand classes" and then in ridden classes.
Used to be that way here too. Unfortunately, we now have horses you can ride and "halter" horses. Of course there are a few notable exceptions but they're not common. And the saddest part is the halter horses are often worth more money and have higher stud fees than those that can actually do something besides strike a pose. :sigh:

pintopiaffe
Oct. 23, 2007, 06:59 PM
well, if you're including me in the cult, don't. I think my guy is an exceptional individual. But I cross breed. I breed WBs, Trakehners, Arab X's and Iberian & Iberian X's. They are all individuals.

I actually agree that many Arabs aren't suited for upper levels. But then again, many (if not most) of ANY breed aren't suited for upper levels. Even fewer are upper-level-with-ammy-with-no-trainer prospects...
Just the image of the stallion laying down to nap in the sun made me chuckle... and truly, I've never met a horse as kind as mine.

If I'm in any cult, it's the "I loff my pinto pony" cult. ;)

BUT, if you're feeling left out, Eggs, you can claim the Trakky boy as "lots of ayerab" as we all know... high % Arab/TB in the Trakhener breed. :yes: :lol:

TeddyRocks
Oct. 23, 2007, 07:16 PM
I have a few questions for some Arab sport horse people... preferably knowledgeable ones. lol any replies are appreciated:

1. Has anyone had any success with arabs crossed with Dutch Harness Horses? There is a lady in Ocala, Elizabeth Pizzonia, that does a lot with both breeds and I've seen one or two that were crosses between the two, and WOW would they make nice dressage horses... I don't think Elizabeth does dressage, but I will definately email her and ask her about them...

2. Back to the Shagya's... Is it a "separate" breed from the arab? Or are they double registered, Shagya and Arab? Can you show them at Arab shows? Is there a separate club and or separate shows for the Shagya in the US?

If you go to www.jacksondressage.com
the first horse on the sales page is a registered Shagya, and also a warmblood... He is definately not but high but if he is registered Shagya, and Shagya's ARE arabians, can he be shown at arab shows?

Thanks for any and all input...:)

Trixie's mom
Oct. 23, 2007, 07:20 PM
renae...you offend me with the 'go around the ring posing and looking pretty' comment.

first of all, horses are trained to do what they do...just because a halter horse doesn't do something doesn't mean they can't.

second, halter horses can do more than just look pretty. there are too many to name but as there was already a list posted before naming a few.

thirdly, have you ridden a pleasure class at a national level??? riding around in a circle, 'posing' and looking 'pretty' isn't as easy as it looks. and there are more than 3 gaits sometimes depending on the class. if you have never ridden a class at that level you cannot speak of them. you have to 'pose' for at least 3 sections if you make it to the final, in front of 3 judges in the arena navigating with 15-20 other amateurs trying to maintain a good place on the rail, getting seen by all three judges at all gaits, not getting cut off, keeping your horse forward and looking happy, oh by the way there are two other stewards in the arena plus a huge center arena area for the announcers, judges, awards etc that leaves you with little area to pass and circle which you should avoid doing.

It's not easy...even on a well-trained horse. If by chance you have ridden a class like this then you know what I'm talking about...which then you should give it the credit it deserves. Let me tell you, riding a dressage test, alone in the arena is much easier for me and much less stressful. and I do this on my national-title holding halter/hunter pleasure/2nd level dressage horse.

and yes...I am a proud member of the arab cult. once you cross over to our side you'll not want to go back!!!!! :)

Renae
Oct. 23, 2007, 07:27 PM
I have a few questions for some Arab sport horse people... preferably knowledgeable ones. lol any replies are appreciated:

1. Has anyone had any success with arabs crossed with Dutch Harness Horses? There is a lady in Ocala, Elizabeth Pizzonia, that does a lot with both breeds and I've seen one or two that were crosses between the two, and WOW would they make nice dressage horses... I don't think Elizabeth does dressage, but I will definately email her and ask her about them...


There are some very nice up and coming Arabian/Dutch Harness Horses. The oldest Arabian/Dutch Harness Horses foaled in North America are only 6 years old this year (2000 was the first year a Dutch Harness Horse stallion was bred to an Arabian mare in North America). The Dutch Harness Horse has been Holland's secret for a long time, straight Dutch Harness Horses have competed to the highest levels of dressage (my mare Etinkie's full brother Atuur was a Grand Prix horse, the British had a DHH on the team at the Sydney Olympics- Dikkiloo, the French at the last WEGs- Lianca). So you will definatly find some very capable prospects of that cross but at this point few proven dressage horses because frankly there aren't any that are old enough to be proven dressage horses. I sold a 4YO Arab/DHH mare at a sale this summer who received a lot of compliments from the dressage peeps and went to a young lady who intends to pursuit a dressage career with her, 3 of my 2YO Arab/DHHs I sold at the same sale went to dressage people.

Renae
Oct. 23, 2007, 07:34 PM
renae...you offend me with the 'go around the ring posing and looking pretty' comment.

first of all, horses are trained to do what they do...just because a halter horse doesn't do something doesn't mean they can't.

second, halter horses can do more than just look pretty. there are too many to name but as there was already a list posted before naming a few.

thirdly, have you ridden a pleasure class at a national level??? riding around in a circle, 'posing' and looking 'pretty' isn't as easy as it looks. and there are more than 3 gaits sometimes depending on the class. if you have never ridden a class at that level you cannot speak of them. you have to 'pose' for at least 3 sections if you make it to the final, in front of 3 judges in the arena navigating with 15-20 other amateurs trying to maintain a good place on the rail, getting seen by all three judges at all gaits, not getting cut off, keeping your horse forward and looking happy, oh by the way there are two other stewards in the arena plus a huge center arena area for the announcers, judges, awards etc that leaves you with little area to pass and circle which you should avoid doing.

It's not easy...even on a well-trained horse. If by chance you have ridden a class like this then you know what I'm talking about...which then you should give it the credit it deserves. Let me tell you, riding a dressage test, alone in the arena is much easier for me and much less stressful. and I do this on my national-title holding halter/hunter pleasure/2nd level dressage horse.

and yes...I am a proud member of the arab cult. once you cross over to our side you'll not want to go back!!!!! :)


Yes, I have shown at the national level, and I don't have an ammy card, so I'm in the open against the big dogs. But go ahead and figure out at the currently ongoing 2007 U.S. Arabian National how many purebred Arabian stallions and mares that receive a TT or better in halter have ever shown under saddle. Tell me in 5 years how many of them ever do show under saddle. I bet it will be less than 20%. I knaw the Half-Arabs and PB geldings will get ridden more, but there will still be plenty of them that never get off the treadmill. You guys are kidding yourself a bit if you really think these purpose bred halter bloodlines are ideal performance horses. And having trained Saddlebreds, Hackney Ponies and Arabs for that level of showing I can tell you the Arab hunter pleasure horses and by and far the easiest ;)

rcloisonne
Oct. 23, 2007, 07:37 PM
2. Back to the Shagya's... Is it a "separate" breed from the arab? Or are they double registered, Shagya and Arab? Can you show them at Arab shows? Is there a separate club and or separate shows for the Shagya in the US?
Yes, they are a separate breed. Shagyas are not considered purebred or even part-bred Arabs and are not registered in any Arabian studbook in the world (although many of the foundation Arabians in their pedigrees are).

They can not be shown at any recognised Arabian show. However, any offspring of a Shagya, bred to a purebred and registered Arab, can be registered and shown.

Trixie's mom
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:11 PM
hunter pleasure the easiest...hhmmmm...certainly not the hardest- that would be western pleasure, but certainly not the easiest. In my experience the easiest would be country.

BTW renae...what are your hunter pleasure wins?

sorry to the other posters but I'm taking things personally now...

TeddyRocks
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:15 PM
Thanks for the replies to my questions... It clears it up for me. I will definately follow up with the DHH crosses... VERY cool...

THANKS

Renae
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:16 PM
Competes in what???

Pleasure driving classes?
CDE? (doubt it with a foot like that though!)
Breed Classes?


As I have explained to that poster it is not possible to compete in breed classes with a 5" toe measurement, it is structly against the rules. So the horse was competing in open pleasure carriage driving or CDES (or the poster of this info is making the whole thing up).

As far as Arabian Breeding/Gelding In-Hand classes (official class titles, it is Breeding class for non-geldings and an In-Hand class for gelding) they used to be called Arabian At Halter classes, which was shortened to halter, and then change in a "makeover" of the halter division to attempt to make it reflect the fact that they are supposed to be judging Arabian conformation based on what makes for a parctical usable horse, not merely an ornament you lead around. they are still working on that :p (There is a numerical scorecard for in hand classes similiar to what is used at Arabian shows in Europe and at Warmblood evaluations scheduled to go into use next season but there is a contention of "halter trainer" who are trying to get the numerical scorecard system declared optional so that can continue to show horses as they currently do).

For anyone interested you can watch the U.S. Arabian Nationals live for free at this site http://www.arabhorse.com/ the show runs until Oct 27.

Dawn J-L
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:30 PM
No one is trashing Arabians or inviting anyone else to. As a long-time Arabian owner, I was enjoying this discussion, the photos and the lack of indignant "NOT SO!!!!!!" on the part of Arabian enthusiasts ... until you started picking apart Thomas' posts and taking great umbrage at the OP's experiences.

I can appreciate that you're passionate about the breed -- I am, too. You're proud of your horses, and the CMK lines (Al Marah-bred and others) do produce nice athletes. But please don't prove my theory that the biggest problem with Arabian horses is their owners.

PS -- CMK doesn't have the market cornered on Arabians that are good-minded riding horses. My horses (mostly Polish, mind you) are all "above average" too. ;)

Never said CMK was the only source of good minded athletic Arabians. They just happen to be the lines I first encountered and the ones with which I have the most detailed familiarity, so I use them in my examples. :-) I like a good horse of any breed of any lineage, always have. I always assess the individual horse and can appreciate a wide spectrum of equine talents. I am not defending the breed but the individuals of the breed that do have qualities that are desirable in an upper level dressage horse.


I didn't mean to come across as peckish as I apparently did. I had a very hard day in real life and encountered yet another thread where folks seemed to be intent on reinforcing the stereotypes that all Arabians are some combination of too high-headed, tense backed, evasive, improperly conformed, etc. to ever make good upper level dressage mounts. This is just as silly a premise as the Arabian owners who think that Arabians are always the best at everything. ;-) (FWIW, I thought I was being "playful" not "nit-picking" when I posted my responses to some of Thomas's assertions, I guess I failed to make that clear. On-line tone is not always easy to convey.)

Having seen some horses of breeds other than elite bred WB's that were good (as in correct, harmonious, expressive, supple, through, etc.) upper level horses, I learned that any horse with the correct conformation, good work ethic, three good gaits and the right training/right partner was capable of correct and lovely upper level work (btw, my observations and opinions on this point were formed long before I ever saw any Arabians). Are horses with those traits more likely to be found in purposebred WB's?--absolutely and I don't dispute that. (Just like elite eventers are more likely to spring from purposebred eventing lines rather than from TB/Sheltand/Arab crosses <wink>) But, the physical AND mental traits for elite dressage ability ARE found in individuals of other breeds -- including among Arabians. That's the fundamental point for me -- and that's all I was trying to say. I apologize to those who took offense at my apparently misconstrued attempts to do so. I'll bow out.

MyReality
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:35 PM
I have no comment about halter Arabs. But this: I will not buy unproved young stock or greenbroke from a halter line, any breed. I will not breed my mare to any halter stallion, any breed.

I think a number of Arab sports horse breeders are doing a great job. I am really seeing a difference in their performance, thanks to you guys.

Arabs stole my heart. It is the one breed that have so many human characteristics. They love, they hate. When they love, they overcome huge difficulty and pain. I know this Arab, her owner put all her kids on her back and you should see how carefully she walks, one leg at a time. when Arabs hate, nothing can tame them, until they fall in love again.

I can write 5 pages about them. If anyone wants to hear, I know many stories.

But THEY ARE NOT BRED FOR DRESSAGE (until recently the sports horse breeding is starting to get organized). Many of them do not have conformational characteristics that makes dressage easy for them.

Problems that are common: tension, downhill, too flexible (noodle like). Those things, once solved, will give you a balanced, through horse. I encourage experienced dressage Arab riders share their tips.

A breed is one big generalization. If you don't want to generalize, there is no point talking about Arabs, or QH or TB. Each breed has its good and bad... no breed can be good at everything on earth.

Don't lose sight of what your horse is made up of, and learn to appreciate them as what they are.

Trixie's mom
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:36 PM
regarding the current regulations for hoof length in the arabian division, it is 4 1/2 inches for a purebred and 5 inches for a half-arab. there is no longer a weight limit- there is a new width/dimension regulation which is measurable without removing the shoe. this is much kinder to the horses at nationals. their shoes do not need to be removed to be tested. check article 103 in the arabian rules in the USEF book.

Trixie's mom
Oct. 23, 2007, 08:37 PM
great post my reality!

knowonder
Oct. 24, 2007, 12:45 PM
Lafeyarabian:

That wouldn't be Sanadek el Shaklan that you bred to would it? If I remember he was really tall for an arab and REALLY gorgeous...just curiosity. I saw him at a show I announced once and he took my breath away.

And for the record on size, I have announced at Scottsdale, Youth Nationals, The Event, and several regional shows and there are not now nor have I ever seen ANY purebred arab reaching anything close to 17hh. The largest purebred I have seen was a 16.2 hand Polish/Egyptian cross. :)

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 24, 2007, 01:10 PM
AT, what are you talking about? That's one of the strangest posts I've ever read here.

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 01:16 PM
AT, what are you talking about?

ditto. Examples, please.

knowonder
Oct. 24, 2007, 01:27 PM
I "think" she was talking about a post that was a bit ago where the poster mentioned that "arab" people would say "my arab" instead of "my horse" when referring to said animal, as if that made it superior somehow.

Please excuse if I am wrong and the above re-cap was a complete paraphrase :)

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 24, 2007, 01:32 PM
Oh, gotcha. Now I understand. Thanks knowonder.

FancyFree
Oct. 24, 2007, 01:53 PM
I think you're overly sensitive about Arabs, as I've noticed on many posts of yours, you freak any time the word "Arabian" is mentioned. :rolleyes: At my house, I call my horses Libbey, Monster, and The Arab. Just like my dog is "The Beagle." The other dog is called by her name. No clue why, just always did it. My mother calls her horses "The Hanos." Her dogs are "The Springers" or "The Pup." I rarely ever call my Arab by her name.

It's not meant to sound that being an Arabian trumps all else. It's just the nickname I call her. Probably always will too. You've freaked on me multiple times when I say the arab did this or that. You read too much into it and assume that since she's an arab, she's therefore god. Um no, it's just a nickname. I also call her punkin head, or the brat, or the baby. Those nicknames sound stupid to be using on the www, so I call her "the Arab."

I suspect other people do this too. "Arab" is easier to say than Dutch Warmblood, or Percheron, or Knabstrupper. So Arab people have less trouble saying (typing) Arab, than some long breed name. I highly doubt that anytime someone mentions their Arab, that they are implying the horse is somehow superior to everyone else's horse on the thread.



Hmmmm, I have a Hanoverian. I think it would be weird to go around saying "My Hano this or that..." I think it's kind of like when people some make sure to let us know what kind of car they drive during conversation. "I'm going to take the Mercedes..." It's pretentious sounding.

Auventera Two
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:04 PM
Hmmmm, I have a Hanoverian. I think it would be weird to go around saying "My Hano this or that..." I think it's kind of like when people some make sure to let us know what kind of car they drive during conversation. "I'm going to take the Mercedes..." It's pretentious sounding.

Well - it's all in the way you take it. ;)

And by this same logic, what about threads where someone says "I have this great pair of Pikeur breeches but they have a nasty stain - how do I get it out?" And so forth.

People can only make you feel inferior if you let 'em.

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:05 PM
exactly, fancyfree. It's over done and usually irrelevant to the post .

class
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:05 PM
but it's not pretentious sounding to say "i'm going to take the dodge dart..."? because that's the vehicle that i would compare my arab too - hell, he was $500. so maybe the perception problem is on the listener's side, not on the speaker's?

twnkltoz
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:10 PM
My hanno/trak cross never says no either . He's sweet, sensitive , intelligent , kind, very forward, very willing, not spooky, tries hard, etc etc etc.
BLAHBLAHBLAH

I think the whole Arab cult thing is a little over done.

It's a horse, just like the Saturn is a car except to the Saturn cult people.

Regular horse people will pose a question " MY horse has a temperature, etc" Ayrab people say " MY ARAB has a temperature...." Um, OK. Get over the arab part.

Sometimes it's relevant. Like, "Passiers don't fit my arab" or "this technique works with my arab," just to provide some context. Many people really believe in their breed and are enthusiastic and like to talk about their good points (and sometimes even their bad points). When our breed of choice gets attacked (perceived or real), naturally we go on the defensive and feel the need to talk about all the good things to show the world why WE love them. It just seems to happen with arabs more than anything else, so we have more opportunity to do that. I haven't witnessed anyone asserting that arabs or any other breed are superior...unless you count the warmblood people who love to talk about how warmbloods have been breed for sport for aeons, and if you're going to do dressage you should be a wb because they're bred for it and none of the others are etc. Maybe it's the warmblood cult that's overdone?

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:11 PM
Class, I don't think it's pretentious at all. I think it's goofy and laughable .

twnkltoz
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:12 PM
I often refer to the car that we drive most often as "The Kia." Just makes it easier to know what car I'm talking about. We also have "The Corolla." Hardly pretentious.

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:36 PM
Try harder. Use your brain.

fiona
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:38 PM
"I have a $54,000 imported Dutch Warmblood that has a temperature"


I bought my Arab for a thousand bucks.


I often refer to the car that we drive most often as "The Kia." ...We also have "The Corolla."


Holey Moley!! What you people need help with most is Shopping!!!

twnkltoz
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:45 PM
Why? We have a Kia and a Corolla and a $500 ARABIAN because that's what we can afford. Ok, the last one was also because I like ARABIANS.

Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian Arabian, Arabian, Arabian

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:55 PM
What part don't you get?

jme
Oct. 24, 2007, 02:59 PM
I'm late coming to this thread, but can't resist anything about an Arab :)

To the OP: I think it's confirmation and what exvet and many others here stated, that it's challenging to get them through the back.

I say this in one breath, but in the other I'm thinking about my little guy. He's a McCoy bred and has a pretty good back. However, he is croup high right now. Just ever so slightly. That could change. He's young. Who knows. I don't care. I think he's awesome:D

I wish I had pics of him under saddle as he just started and he's going great, but that will have to wait. For now, here's a crappy pasture pic: http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2318547780098532213wIaygw


About the whole thing Auventera Two's been talking about: I always say "my TB" did this or "my Arab" did that when talking to people who don't know my horses. If talking to friends I'll say, "Chilli tried to eat one of the dogs" or "Bert let himself out of his pasture and got into the house", not "My TB tried to eat one of the dogs" or "My Arab let himself out of his pasture and got into the house". I think it's just a matter of identification. Saying "My horse" is so informal!

mp
Oct. 24, 2007, 03:02 PM
Hmmmm, I have a Hanoverian. I think it would be weird to go around saying "My Hano this or that..." I think it's kind of like when people some make sure to let us know what kind of car they drive during conversation. "I'm going to take the Mercedes..." It's pretentious sounding.

But to get the full delusion of grandeur effect, the owner must say "my sporthorse Arab" to distinguish it from all those run-of-the-mill Arabs out there. ;)

You might also realize that there are a lot of folks like me who been told things like "that sure is a nice horse, 'specially for an Arab" or "he's not a crazy and spooky. I can't believe he's an Arabian" just once too often.

I cannot ever recall saying to one of the 100+ QH or Paint horse owners at my barn something like "hey, your horse isn't a peanut-rolling boring-ass packer like all the other stock horses I've seen." And I would never say "wow, he's really smart for a Hanoverian" to my dressage friends who have them. First, because it would be rude. And secondly, because I look at horses primarily as individuals and then notice the breed. (I know Hano is registry not a breed, but you get my point.)

For what it's worth, I don't think I've ever referred to my horse as "my arab." I've got seven, so I have to use names. :)

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 03:08 PM
My wb has a splinter. What should I do? I mean it's a WB fercrissakes and I only say that so you won't mix him up with my oft mentioned Gypsy Vanner/mini cross because I am sure you are all feverishly keeping up to date on my various horses and their particular issues and I would not want you to get confused in this regard.:)

AnotherRound
Oct. 24, 2007, 03:30 PM
AV2 says: I asked you why it's goofy and laughable to distinguish which horse you're referring to in the context of a post.

You're being (purposefully?) obtuse. Its goofy and laughable because nobody cares if you are identifying your horses so as to distinguish one of the three from the others you own. You don't sound at all as though that's what you are doing. What you sound like, to everyone who reads your posts, is that you are all about "my arab" this and "my arab" that. You sound pretentious, as though you have something to be snotty and aboveo other people about. You present yourself as though you want to especially distinguish your discussion and points with the breed of your horse, which detracts from any point you actually might make, because the breed of your horse is either inconsequential to the topic and the readers of your words, or else inappropriate to the group dynamics. However, since this thread is a topic about Arabs in particular, when you post over and over in the thread about "My Arab" folks are left with little choice about what you intended when you say that. Accentuating your horse's breed makes you sound like you are pretentious about the breed of your horse, and it needs to be known by its breed. Nobody buys that you only meant to distinguish your one horse frojm the other.

Capish? Or are you being obtuse? I think the point is made, now. Many have tried to make the point to you. I don't know whether you understand it or not, but its been made.

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 03:36 PM
yeah, Ok, but what about my WARMBLOOD? He's a WARMBLOOD and he has a SPLINTER. What should I do about my WARMBLOOD"S splinter? This is my WARMBLOOD, not my OTHER HORSE.

twnkltoz
Oct. 24, 2007, 03:38 PM
What you aren't getting is that people on this board LOVE to find reasons to rip each other apart. There have been MANY threads where the OP was deserving of some sort of ridicule, so the trainwreck participants start reading all of the OP's posts so they can point out inconsistencies. That's AV2's point.

My point is, why the hell do you care so much?

From now on, I declare that I will only refer to my arab as my arab. Not my horse, my girl, my princess, or Molly. I will do this specifically to piss off those of you who hate that. I will also cackle as I do it, which unfortunately you won't get to hear so you'll have to just imagine it. I sure wish I could have the 'arab' part show up in sparkly rainbow colors for the full effect!

:lol: *cackle*

mp
Oct. 24, 2007, 03:42 PM
egon, I'm so sorry about your wb's splinter. Jingles coming your way, hon.

but if you tell me his name, the jingles will work much better. I mean, I need to know if I'm jingling for a Thor and not a Caspar or a Percy.

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 03:43 PM
I think you are wrong. Nice of you try but I don't think AV2 has any point at all.:)

TeddyRocks
Oct. 24, 2007, 04:31 PM
But to get the full delusion of grandeur effect, the owner must say "my sporthorse Arab" to distinguish it from all those run-of-the-mill Arabs out there. ;)

You might also realize that there are a lot of folks like me who been told things like "that sure is a nice horse, 'specially for an Arab" or "he's not a crazy and spooky. I can't believe he's an Arabian" just once too often.

I cannot ever recall saying to one of the 100+ QH or Paint horse owners at my barn something like "hey, your horse isn't a peanut-rolling boring-ass packer like all the other stock horses I've seen." And I would never say "wow, he's really smart for a Hanoverian" to my dressage friends who have them. First, because it would be rude. And secondly, because I look at horses primarily as individuals and then notice the breed. (I know Hano is registry not a breed, but you get my point.)

For what it's worth, I don't think I've ever referred to my horse as "my arab." I've got seven, so I have to use names. :)

:lol:So, if I was to say... I put the RAT (rat terrier name C.C.) in the TITAN (Nissan Titan p/u), hooked up the FEATERLITE (little OLD 2 horse bumper pull), loaded up the CONNEMARA (little $2500 connemara appendix cross, and hauled him to the TRAINER'S (which one? Dressage trainer? Jumping trainer... ya get it),for a lesson, that would sound pretentious?

I don't even own the trailer. I borrow it from a friend...

I love this thread though... very entertaining, and point being... a horse is a horse... a truck is a truck... a dog is a dog... Life is Good...

class
Oct. 24, 2007, 05:09 PM
I love this thread though... very entertaining, and point being... a horse is a horse... a truck is a truck... a dog is a dog... Life is Good...
_________________
Lori
Connemara's Rock!
Connemara's Do It all!


were you being ironic on purpose?

why do you have to say "Connemara's Rock!" in every single post? huh? huh? huh? why not just "Horse's Rock!" (sic)

egon finds it laughable, and she is taking a stand against all of this breed-name dropping. she's starting with the arab mentioners, but connemaras could be next.

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 24, 2007, 05:15 PM
:lol: Exactly. Some of us here are lucky enough to have their very own COTH stalker

<snip>

You wouldn't believe the things this freak has pointed out

"this freak"? Rather harsh, I would say.

From dictionary.com:

freak –noun

1. any abnormal phenomenon or product or unusual object; anomaly; aberration.
2. a person or animal on exhibition as an example of a strange deviation from nature; monster.

How is calling your personal stalker (your opinion, by the way) a "freak" any different than someone calling another poster "stupid" - something for which said poster might be chided by the mods.

grayarabpony
Oct. 24, 2007, 05:17 PM
Well, it is somewhat freakish not to have anything better to do than to troll on a BB.

Ghazzu
Oct. 24, 2007, 05:20 PM
but it's not pretentious sounding to say "i'm going to take the dodge dart..."? because that's the vehicle that i would compare my arab too - hell, he was $500. so maybe the perception problem is on the listener's side, not on the speaker's?

Right.
I see it more like saying, "I'm taking the truck to run to the feed store" vs. "I'm taking the car".

This is not to say that people who perceive that there is a higher percentage of flakes among Arab owners than among some other breeds...but I maintain the Gypsy Vanners have us Arab folk beat hands down in that department...:D

egontoast
Oct. 24, 2007, 05:28 PM
egon, I'm so sorry about your wb's splinter. Jingles coming your way, hon.


Thanks, mp. Tragedy was averted. My connemara/georgian grande cross sucked out the splinter before it went septic. That cross has amazing suction. Thank god for the connemara/georgian grande cross!

twnkltoz
Oct. 24, 2007, 06:02 PM
If you had an arab, he would have protected your warmblood, preventing the warmblood from ever even getting the splinter in the first place. The arab is kind and merciful. All hail the arab!

FancyFree
Oct. 24, 2007, 10:12 PM
My point is, why the hell do you care so much?

From now on, I declare that I will only refer to my arab as my arab. Not my horse, my girl, my princess, or Molly. I will do this specifically to piss off those of you who hate that. I will also cackle as I do it, which unfortunately you won't get to hear so you'll have to just imagine it. I sure wish I could have the 'arab' part show up in sparkly rainbow colors for the full effect!

:lol: *cackle*

Eh, it's not that big of a deal to me. I can understand breed loyalty, honestly. I guess the problem is that some get obnoxious about it. Although I do confess to my own breed snobbery. I have a bumper sticker that says: "If it's not a Hanoverian, it's just a horse!" But it's meant to be tongue in cheek, if anything. ;)

Knock yourself out with the Arab love. :)

Sakura
Oct. 24, 2007, 10:47 PM
If you had an arab, he would have protected your warmblood, preventing the warmblood from ever even getting the splinter in the first place. The arab is kind and merciful. All hail the arab!

OMG! This is my favorite post EVER!!!:cool::lol::yes::lol::yes::cool:

TwoArabs
Oct. 24, 2007, 11:14 PM
For those of us who own Arabs it is just a matter of good taste, and appreciation of the finest horses. Then there are those who own other breeds.

Ghazzu
Oct. 24, 2007, 11:16 PM
One of the things I like about my Arabs is the shorter distance to the ground...:D

Lafeyarabian
Oct. 25, 2007, 12:19 AM
Knowonder- His name is Sanskrit. I have seen a few El Shaklan sons advertised from the 15.2-16H range, but Sanskrit I know is truly 16H. Bey Shah also has quite a few sons (and daughters) in that height range. Anyway, I was never into Egyptian breeding until I saw Sanskrit (I stayed with Polish and Crabbet), but he is simply amazing.

Sakura
Oct. 25, 2007, 07:44 AM
One of the things I like about my Arabs is the shorter distance to the ground...:D

Amen!

pandorasboxx
Oct. 25, 2007, 08:08 AM
The arab is kind and merciful. All hail the arab!

Bwahahahahaha!

Prostrate yourselves unworthy ones.

twnkltoz
Oct. 25, 2007, 11:21 AM
:lol:

fiona
Oct. 25, 2007, 11:52 AM
If ever there was a reason to resusitate the Late Great Aunt Esther it is this thread.
Some of you need fashion guidance, some breed awareness - everyone knows it's the pure Georgian Grande that sucks! - and some need to spend a good few hours appreciating the cool wall from Top Gear.
Then there are a few that ought to get out more altogether.

vanheimrhorses
Oct. 25, 2007, 06:44 PM
there are halter horses and there are performance horses

the Eqyptian halter horses are exotic with high level croups, and most people do not buy them for performance

the polish Arabian and Russian and racing Arabians are bred to perform and they have lovely toplines and can really move and engage. You need to study and select the proper bloodline (by performance records) and conformation.

The polish Arabians have always been the ones used to make the top performance horses and used in developing other breeds of horses.

then there is the training factor, you need to get the horse in the hands of the right trainer to get the right outline and development and movement. send it to a saddleseat arabian trainer and that is how it will move no matter what saddle is put on its back.

Dazednconfused
Oct. 25, 2007, 08:01 PM
there are halter horses and there are performance horses

the Eqyptian halter horses are exotic with high level croups, and most people do not buy them for performance

the polish Arabian and Russian and racing Arabians are bred to perform and they have lovely toplines and can really move and engage. You need to study and select the proper bloodline (by performance records) and conformation.

The polish Arabians have always been the ones used to make the top performance horses and used in developing other breeds of horses.

then there is the training factor, you need to get the horse in the hands of the right trainer to get the right outline and development and movement. send it to a saddleseat arabian trainer and that is how it will move no matter what saddle is put on its back.

This is a joke, right? :o

JackSprats Mom
Oct. 25, 2007, 11:24 PM
Dawn J-L
It really seems that you are trying to get folks to start trashing all Arabs as being structurally and temperamentally unsuited to dressage. People gave you several good explanations of why many Arabs do travel croup high, as well as providing examples that demonstrate that not all Arabs travel croup high.


EASY Dawn!!- Why on earth would I want the board to trash the breed of horse I have and bought specifically to do dressage with:confused::confused:

It was a genuine question and I got (in the midst of all this) some good answers (such as Ideayodas) so that I can make sure I don't fall into some of the pitfalls and traps that can be easy with this breed (such as curling behind the bit- NO NOT ALL , I didn't say all do it:cool:).

So please, don't think I'm trashing the breed, or saying they're too this or too that. Like any horse, some are this and some are that. I have, and I stand by this, seen a disproportianate number that travel croup high when they are NOT conformationally croup high and was curious as to why.

Mine doesn't, I want to keep it that way, I want to do well at the sport I love with the horse I love. Hence I try and get all the information I can to train him the correct way. Every breed has their odd uniqueness to them (which was my point with the stallion post, obviously didn't come across as I meant it too -trouble with the intenet- it was to merely point out that different breeds have characterisitics unique to them, hence their 'breed', Arabs/Tb are generally hotter, warmbloods generally cooler, (AGAIN not all).

This wasn't a bash the Arab thread nor was it a praise the Arab thread, it was a simple genuine question on my personal observation :winkgrin::cool:

Thomas_1
Oct. 26, 2007, 06:07 AM
What you aren't getting is that people on this board LOVE to find reasons to rip each other apart. There have been MANY threads where the OP was deserving of some sort of ridicule, so the trainwreck participants start reading all of the OP's posts so they can point out inconsistencies. That's AV2's point.

My point is, why the hell do you care so much?

From now on, I declare that I will only refer to my arab as my arab. Not my horse, my girl, my princess, or Molly. I will do this specifically to piss off those of you who hate that. I will also cackle as I do it, which unfortunately you won't get to hear so you'll have to just imagine it. I sure wish I could have the 'arab' part show up in sparkly rainbow colors for the full effect!

:lol: *cackle* :lol: tch tch, you are evil ;)

When being a reconteur, I also reference my horses by saying, the arab, the t/b, the shitland, the flighty one, the stupid numpty. I could use their names but that could lead to total confusion with horses (stupidly) called Capercaillee, Camptosaurus, Weewudujump and Funnywaytomakalivin :yes: :confused:

Or it could get me into trouble with sanction from the Administrator with a scurrying pair called Norfolk and Brakes - as in "I was galloping a course with Norfolk n Brakes" and then there's my Yard Manager and a highland ride and drive and 2 customers all called Nicci!! Nicci got Nicci tacked up for Nicci and had to go quickly because Nicci was next:confused:

However I'm pretty confident that if I post one day that I can't get the thing to do a flying lead change and then the next day that the horse just won a dressage competion and the following that we were off scurrying, that the majority will figure that I've at least 3 horses and those that think there's a rapid advancement or something odd will ask and so I can clarify its for instance, a young arab, a warmblood and a welsh section A pony pair.

In truth most folks can figure pretty quickly the level of real experience and what folks have by their postings and what may be on their profiles.

Though difficulty sometimes ensues when some folks are inconsistent or live in a fantasy land. :eek::yes:

And heck would you believe it, some people actually don't always tell the truth on the internet :eek:

Some transform themselves or undergo a rapid metamorphosis and go from a state of innocent and inexperienced trail riding novice to expert high level competitive endurance rider just like that.

Shocking I know. :yes:

For those who are easily confused though then please note that the following are all one in the same horse:

My chestnut arab, Danteneus, Dante, ginger ninger, spawn of the devil, 666, little pet, dog food, speed machine, the labourgini, red peril, the orange horse. And he's a ride and drive so I may well be talking about either sitting on him or sitting behind him! Or doing dressage, jumping or cross country.

Perhaps every time we talk about a horse we have to be more precise and I'm happy to set the standard......


(note: for those who can't figure, this is not the entire extent of all my horses)

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 26, 2007, 06:33 AM
:lol: tch tch, you are evil ;)

When being a reconteur, I also reference my horses by saying, the arab, the t/b, the shitland, the flighty one, the stupid numpty. I could use their names but that could lead to total confusion with horses (stupidly) called Capercaillee, Camptosaurus, Weewudujump and Funnywaytomakalivin :yes: :confused:


"the shitland"

:lol::lol::lol:

...hitchinmygetalong signs off to go get something to clean off keyboard AND monitor....

Thanks Thomas!

TeddyRocks
Oct. 26, 2007, 07:19 AM
Eh, it's not that big of a deal to me. I can understand breed loyalty, honestly. I guess the problem is that some get obnoxious about it. Although I do confess to my own breed snobbery. I have a bumper sticker that says: "If it's not a Hanoverian, it's just a horse!" But it's meant to be tongue in cheek, if anything. ;)

Knock yourself out with the Arab love. :)

My friend has that same bumpersticker... About 5 months or so ago, I taped over the Hanno part with Connemara... She didn't know for about a month, so free advertising for the Connemara breed. I don't think there are any Connemara stuff out there... But if there is someone let me know. LOVE my connemara and "the breed"
Again it was a joke and meant to be funny. She wasn't upset. Not really... :lol:

TeddyRocks
Oct. 26, 2007, 07:21 AM
If you had an arab, he would have protected your warmblood, preventing the warmblood from ever even getting the splinter in the first place. The arab is kind and merciful. All hail the arab!

This is absolutely HYSTERICAL...

MistyBlue
Oct. 26, 2007, 07:34 AM
Or it could get me into trouble with sanction from the Administrator with a scurrying pair called Norfolk and Brakes - as in "I was galloping a course with Norfolk n Brakes"

Okay...this is the most hilarious names for a pair I've ever heard! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Funckyfilly
Oct. 26, 2007, 08:00 AM
I have a friend who refers to them as scare-abs. I assume because she thinks they are a little on edge most of the time.

Thomas_1
Oct. 26, 2007, 08:13 AM
Okay...this is the most hilarious names for a pair I've ever heard! :lol: :lol: :lol: I aim to please ;)

And I've others with silly names too!

TeddyRocks
Oct. 26, 2007, 08:37 AM
:lol: :winkgrin: :cool:

This morning I took my German bred Weimaraner (""VY"" ma-rah-ner, thank you very much) to the barn with me to put the Kensington Smart Pink Plaid blanket on my Egyptian/Russian/Polish Arabian. Then I noticed that somehow my $100 Stubben leather halter had fallen off the tack hook (oh the horrors.) So I picked that up. Back in the house I removed the $27 Weatherbeeta doggie coat from The Grey Ghost (aka Princess) and hung that up. Dogs were fed with Eukanuba, and given their daily allottment of 19 dollar dried chicken jerkey.

I showered and applied my clearance sale Cover Girl makeup that doesn't really match my complexion but was cheap, and dressed in my $6 Walmart sweater and $4 clearance rack shoes. I grabbed the fake Prada from China Town (it was a gift) and downed a 13 cent poptart.

Off to work for another day of bulletin board fun! :D

Good for you...

Tamara in TN
Oct. 30, 2007, 02:36 PM
My late Arab stallion personified laid back in a breeding situation.
He once approached a mare who, though in estrus, squealed at him, turned away from her, let out a big sigh, and laid down in the sand to sun himself.

a fellers gotta know his limitations :winkgrin:

Tamara in TN