Trivia question - terminology

[J Swan]

Ok ladies and germs, riddle me this:


"If two hounds' a couple, but also a brace

The huntsman adds one, does that make a thrace?"

[J Swan]

Guess y'all must be out hunting while I post lame riddles.

Anyone care to take a stab at this?

In plain English - what is a group of three hounds called?

[rivenoak]

I always say a couple and a half, but I'm probably wrong.

[Beverley]

Well, in my experience, 'brace' refers to foxes, not hounds.

I too would call three hounds a couple and a half.

Thrace is a place, full of Thracians.:cool:

[wateryglen]

I'd call them "a hunt"!

If they were running thru my yard on a fox; I'd call them "good hounds".

If they were mine and layin' around my house; I'd call them "those stinky dogs"!!

What do ya call 3 hounds? ........by their names of course!! Silly girl!!!

[xeroxchick]

"thrace"...Thrace was in ancient greece? As in torn apart by Thracian women?

[J Swan]

Well, in my defense, I freely admitted it was a lame riddle. :D I used a rhyming dictionary and "thrace" came up as the best rhyme for "brace". No Greeks involved.

3 hounds is a "leash".

Wanna play some more?

[SLW]

In plain English - what is a group of three hounds called?

On my den floor is my "mixed pack", two JRT's & a whippet. :) ;) The cats around them add diversity. :)

[HJFox29020]

I always say a couple and a half, but I'm probably wrong.

Even though I'm just learning all of my hunt terminology again (or perhaps BECAUSE I'm learning all of my hunt terminology again), I've just read where our hunt calls three "a couple & a half". I, too, was under the impression that a "brace" referred to a pair of quail or grouse while a "bevy" was more than two but less than a full covey of 10-12. Again, just .02 from a bonafide newbie.

[J Swan]

So for extra credit (this is the honor system - no googling):

What is a bunch of owls called?

[fernie fox]

A Hoot:D

[Equibrit]

A Parliament of owls.

Your "mixed pack" is a trencher pack!

[J Swan]

Equibrit - you are an endless fountain of knowledge. I'll have to come up with something more difficult.


Now that y'all know a "leash" is the proper term for 3 hounds, you can go out and impress your fellow hunters with your knowledge of obscure hunting terms.

If memory serves, the term is used to refer to the number of hounds one is hunting with - not a method of counting the hounds in a pack.

[Catersun]

J Swan.... is it raining??? Are you stuck inside the house???

I just realized that after I get my fish tank up and running with fish in it, I'm going to start obsessing about hunting instead of fish.

Cause sitting here on a rainy boring day while the wee child sleeps watching my EMPTY fish tank cycle would be much better if I were sitting here learning obscure facts about hunting from a book with a cup of tea, or having half a chance playing online trivia with j swan and co. and then every now and then glancing up at my fish tank... WITH fish in it!


SO, I'm ready for the next trivia question....

[J Swan]

Yes, I am stuck inside the house. I am stuck in the house with 3 dogs and one puppy who have been eating rawhides all day (an effort to keep them quiet) and now they are all producing copious amounts of gas.

I was going to light a scented candle, but I'm afraid the house will blow up.

It's Equibrits fault - he/she/it said the rain was coming this way.

Thanks, Equibrit (waving) That's enough now - you can have it back.

Opening Meet is tomorrow, and there is no way it's going to happen. Just no way. It's still pouring - and I mean pouring. I'm not sure I can even get the trailer hooked up - it's so muddy at the barn. My tack is spotless, all the brightwork is polished (I polish EVERYTHING), my braiding kit is all ready, my Melton, boots and canary vest still fit (amazingly), and my boots are spit shined. In short - I'm ready to boogie.

Unfortunately, we're going to need a snorkel and flippers tomorrow - so I think I will be staying home. Normally I'd be glad for the chance to sleep in - but the puppy is apparently addicted to PCP or crack or something and wakes up at 2am and wants to play.

(I'm very happy she is leaving Sunday for her adoptive home.)


So - since I'm stuck in the house breathing through my nose, I'll ask another trivia (and trivial) question:


Riddle me this, Batman:

What is a Leverett?




NO CHEATING! :)

[Beverley]

Well, I think there is only one 't' at the end rather than a double 't,' but of course everyone would recognize that as a young hare!:cool:

[J Swan]

Awwww geez - I thought that was a good one. Yes, the spelling can be with one t or two - I've also seen it with a y instead of an i.

It eeze zee old french.

Ok - I'll go back to the batcave and come up with a really hard one. Same bat time, same bat place.......

[Beverley]

Well, okay, while you are looking I'll toss one out.

Explain what is meant, in foxhunting, by the term 'to throw up.'

Okay, I can hear minds racing, so let me clarify: It has nothing to do with what you might have had in your flask.:)

[J Swan]

Ooooo pick me!! Pick me!!!!!

No - I'll keep my mouth shut. But I know it.

But I'll let catersun or someone else answer it - I gotta bring the pig in - I can hear him squealing.

[Equibrit]

Baby bunny!

'to throw up.' Flush out Charlie.


My turn - What is "feathering" ?

[Acertainsmile]

Okay, I'll play... although feathering could mean my hair in the eighties... I actually remember this from, yes... the 80's while hunting...

The hound finding a scent, waving his tail, not speaking... close enough I think.

[Beverley]

'to throw up.' Flush out Charlie.




Sorry, incorrect.:) Keep guessing!

[Equibrit]

Hounds throwing up their heads and losing the scent. Sometimes said "Heads UP".


What's a "skirter" ?

[Catersun]

skirting.. when the hounds run back and forth searching for a scent?

Oh an I"M sorry about opening hunt jswan... I know you have been excited about it. :-(

why exactly is the pig throwing a hissy fit to come in? he doesn't like the rain?

[Equibrit]

skirting.. when the hounds run back and forth searching for a scent?



Nope - that's feathering!

[Catersun]

um.. yeah.. feathering.... that's what I ment.... *wink*...


hey.. I thought that was a fair guess for a non-hunter....

I want the wee child to hurry up and get big enough to ride so I can have someone to ride with.... was even looking up the closest hunt to us.... Middleton Place Hounds in Charleston, SC..... *sighs* eventually.

could skirting be when the hounds gather round the horses or the huntsmen after being called off a line?

(yes, grasping at straws)

I see you viewing the thread!! Come on!!! Please... I can't stand the wait!!! ;-)

[Beverley]

.. when the hounds run back and forth searching for a scent?



Well, no, actually, that would be called hunting.:)

More precisely, when they have just gone into covert at the huntsman's behest, it would be the part of hunting known as 'drawing (a covert).'

If they are performing the activity after having been following an active line for a spell, they are 'casting.'

Still need a correct guess on skirting!

[Equibrit]

Hounds "hunting' would be giving voice.
"Feather" A hound feathers when it is uncertain of the line it is following. Usually it waves its stem and keeps its head down, but it does not give voice.
"Drawing" The huntsman sending hounds through a covert to look for a fox
"Casting" The hounds' effort to recover a lost scent. A huntsman casts hounds when he tries to help them.

[wateryglen]

Isn't a hound a skirter when he goes around the perimeter or outside of a covert instead of going into it? He's not staying with the pack well but kinda waiting for someone else to flush something out that he'll be able to chase or take credit for? :confused: Skirting around a covert?

[J Swan]

Yes, and I bet you know that because a certain Basset Hound who shall remain nameless has been known to do this when the huntsman isn't looking.


Speaking of skirting, here is a good one.

Chop

[Beverley]

Hounds "hunting' would be giving voice.
"Feather" A hound feathers when it is uncertain of the line it is following. Usually it waves its stem and keeps its head down, but it does not give voice.
"Drawing" The huntsman sending hounds through a covert to look for a fox
"Casting" The hounds' effort to recover a lost scent. A huntsman casts hounds when he tries to help them.


Pardon me for splitting hairs...:) I am of the old fogey/Wadsworth school of terminology.

Whenever they are looking (really 'smelling') for their quarry, they are hunting. When they find their line and open, or speak, or give tongue (not voice), then they have found what they are hunting for, and are now pursuing it. Until they throw up, or overrun, or account for their quarry, in the first two of these cases they would then cast themselves to try to recover the line. That is, they have shifted back to hunting mode. In the third, they would be roundly congratulated by the huntsman and moved on to draw another covert.

A hound feathers not when he is uncertain, but rather, has indicated that he has affirmatively found some promising scents, and so actively waves that stern (known as a wagging a tail in mere house dogs). If he works to a good line, he will open (not strike, which is commonly used these days and is night hunter/performance trial/huntin' dawg terminology, not necessarily incorrect, just terminology from a variation on traditional foxhunting).

[Beverley]

Okay, I abbreviated the previous post not wanting to get into terminology that J Swan might be pulling out of the bat cave for quiz purposes.

So, while pondering 'chop,' here is another one. Name the three parts of a hunting whip 'according to Wadwsorth.'

[J Swan]

Ooooo - pick me!! Pick me!!!!!




As an aside, is it possible that in the South at least, that some of the hunting vernacular might be influenced by the night hunter/field trial/hunting dawg folks?

Like strike, for example. Do folks use that term up north? Out west? Or is it a southern thang?

[Equibrit]

Pardon me for splitting hairs...:) I am of the old fogey/Wadsworth school of terminology.

Whenever they are looking (really 'smelling') for their quarry, they are hunting. When they find their line and open, or speak, or give tongue (not voice), then they have found what they are hunting for, and are now pursuing it. Until they throw up, or overrun, or account for their quarry, in the first two of these cases they would then cast themselves to try to recover the line. That is, they have shifted back to hunting mode. In the third, they would be roundly congratulated by the huntsman and moved on to draw another covert.

A hound feathers not when he is uncertain, but rather, has indicated that he has affirmatively found some promising scents, and so actively waves that stern (known as a wagging a tail in mere house dogs). If he works to a good line, he will open (not strike, which is commonly used these days and is night hunter/performance trial/huntin' dawg terminology, not necessarily incorrect, just terminology from a variation on traditional foxhunting).

Maybe on YOUR side of the pond! Jorrocks would have not of that Madam; you would be found at fault.

Are you referring to the relatively recent (1915) Wadsworth, who was the first Republican Party whip. If you are, then why would it matter what he calls the parts of a piece of equipment that predate him by several hundred years?

[Beverley]

Maybe on YOUR side of the pond! Jorrocks would have not of that Madam; you would be found at fault.

Are you referring to the relatively recent (1915) Wadsworth, who was the first Republican Party whip. If you are, then why would it matter what he calls the parts of a piece of equipment that predate him by several hundred years?

Um, well, I've whipped in to three different Brits and 'your' definitions do not match theirs!

I would have presumed that your 'Deep South' entry for location was on 'this' side of the pond.:)

The Wadsworth of which I speak 'may' have been a Republican, was not a poet to my knowledge, but definitely 'was' MFH of the Genessee Valley from 1932 to 1975, position still held by his descendents as far as I know. That is, William P. Wadsworth.

His little book 'Riding to Hounds in America: An Introduction to Foxhunting" is considered the bible on 'this' side of the pond. We're entitled to do things 'our' way, well, because we won the Revolution!:cool:

[Equibrit]

Shame his translation skills were so poor!
I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
July 4th is celebrated heartily on the other side of the pond!

[Beverley]

Well, you know, we 'are' famously divided by a common language! One of the three referenced huntsmen was realllly hard for me to understand, what with that funny accent and all. But 'bloody 'ell' doesn't need much translating...:)

[Equibrit]

That's a mite tame for a huntsman!

[Catersun]

ahem.... back to the subject at hand..... showing plumage eh?


a chop....

a nice tasty cut of meat ;-)

perhaps what the hounds get after a good day of hunting? ;-)

[Beverley]

Ooooo - pick me!! Pick me!!!!!




As an aside, is it possible that in the South at least, that some of the hunting vernacular might be influenced by the night hunter/field trial/hunting dawg folks?

Like strike, for example. Do folks use that term up north? Out west? Or is it a southern thang?


Well, so go ahead!

Yes, I think the vernacular is influenced by 'cross pollination' with good ole American style huntin'. Have noticed more use of the word 'strike' since the performance trials got going.

[Beverley]

That's a mite tame for a huntsman!


Well, yes, I couldn't make out the other verbiage...but I got the drift.

[Thomas_1]

Opening Meet is tomorrow, and there is no way it's going to happen. Just no way. It's still pouring - and I mean pouring. I'm not sure I can even get the trailer hooked up - it's so muddy at the barn. My tack is spotless, all the brightwork is polished (I polish EVERYTHING), my braiding kit is all ready, my Melton, boots and canary vest still fit (amazingly), and my boots are spit shined. In short - I'm ready to boogie.

NO CHEATING! :) :eek: You mean you don't hunt because its raining and muddy? Blimey O'Reilly! Good job you don't live in the UK or you'd never be out.

Not that we've got any hunting just now ...... foot and mouth disease risk precautions! :(

[Thomas_1]

Explain what is meant, in foxhunting, by the term 'to throw up.'

Okay, I can hear minds racing, so let me clarify: It has nothing to do with what you might have had in your flask.:) Well my Yard Manager threw up all over one of my horse's withers and on my saddle last New Years Day! Good Party the night before ! :winkgrin:

Its when the hounds get their noses off the ground and lift their heads up and look round for help because they've lost the line of scent.

Well it is here anyways!

[Thomas_1]

So, while pondering 'chop,' here is another one. Name the three parts of a hunting whip 'according to Wadwsorth.' Never read Wadsworth, but I'll have a guess based on what there is:

Handle - for opening gates
Shaft - erm.... well to keep the handle from the thong :winkgrin:
Thong - to keep the hounds from under your horse's feet


What does it mean if someone is riding with their hand behind their back?

And....

What's a smeuse ?

[goeslikestink]

dunno but take a guess thomas
riding with hands behind your back- can only think to stay quite and not pass the master nor houndsmen till scents picked up and found meaning you to close to object

as regards to smeuse -never heard of it- could be a mouse or it could be a shared venture ie hunting -

[xeroxchick]

A Parliament of owls.

Your "mixed pack" is a trencher pack!

Thank you! Whenever I've used the term "trencher pack" I am told that is is not a term and no one has heard of it.

[Janet]

:eek: You mean you don't hunt because its raining and muddy? Blimey O'Reilly! Good job you don't live in the UK or you'd never be out.

Not that we've got any hunting just now ...... foot and mouth disease risk precautions! :( Ah- but you do not have "red Virginia clay" either. Nasty stuff when it is wet- pulls tendons.

[Equibrit]

Gap in a hedge.

Would the hand behind the back have the first two fingers extended ??

[Thomas_1]

Gap in a hedge. Well done you :)

But for those who didn't know - a small gap at the bottom,where animals track regularly track through - not a gap all the way up for people

Would the hand behind the back have the first two fingers extended ?? no. well not here anyway

[J Swan]

I'm admit to being stumped on the hand across the back. I only do that when my back hurts!

I knew what a smeuse was - but have never heard it used in the US (not that I have a lifetime of experience hunting, mind you). I use the term "trace" as in game trace.

The hunting whip - would be, I think, crop thong lash. Though there are more parts - those are the biggies.



Did anyone get "chop"? Hint - what might a skirter do?


Thomas_1 - Usually mud does not deter me. Our territory is mostly bottomland. But that much rain after months of drought - it was just gross. I did manage to make it to the breakfast, though! Turnout was a bit low this year - for the aforementioned reasons.

Catersun - You MUST come hunting!!! It's wonderful!

[Catersun]

J Swan, if that is an inviation, I'll be sure to make a detour on my way to PA this fall/winter. A couple of us locals have talked about it, alas... that is all the farther it's gotten to, talking. :-(

[Beverley]

Well know I know what a smeuse is...hand behind back, 'warning, my horse is about to kick, back off!'

J Swan wins on the whip. I am waiting for 'somebody else' to guess on chop, recusing myself as it were...

Trencher pack...really? No one in your neighborhood ever heard of it? From the French 'tranchee,' that last bit of bread that zee French, hundreds of years ago, would use to sop up the last bit of gravy on the dinner plate and then pitch to the hound dawg.

Paradise Valley Beagles in AZ is a trencher pack.

[J Swan]

Ahhhh - now I know why I didn't know what a hand across the back meant. The first indication I get is usually a seeing a set of hooves fly about 2 inches from my horse or my knee.

Followed invariably by, "Oh, did Pookums kick you? Naughty Pookums Mommy wuvs him." As I mention that a red ribbon or a different career might be appropriate.....


I have a trencher - her picture is in my profile. Since her bout with Lyme she just hasn't been the same though. I've also heard that term used interchangeably with "farmer pack".


If no one is gonna get chop - I'll let y'all chew on it a while longer while I give you another trivia question.

Ribbons and their meaning (ribbon in the tail - not exclusively a foxhunting thing)

Yellow

Red

Green

White


Catersun - I tell you what. You come visit, and I'll take you hunting with a footpack of Basset Hounds. No horses - this is a footpack.

[SLW]

Red- kicker
Green- new to hunting/green hunter
Yellow or White- one means a stallion.

At a loss for the fourth.

[J Swan]

SLW gets partial credit for red and green!

Yellow and white remain - and indeed, one means a stallion.

[Thomas_1]

Ahhhh - now I know why I didn't know what a hand across the back meant. The first indication I get is usually a seeing a set of hooves fly about 2 inches from my horse or my knee.:lol: Well there you go.... Now you'll see the hand behind the back JUST before you see the set of hooves.

Its what was used before folks got into the more modern tendency for ribbons in the tail!



Ribbons and their meaning (ribbon in the tail - not exclusively a foxhunting thing)

Red - might be prone to kicking if crowded

Green - its a young un or an inexperienced one and I'm darned if I know what it will do but as you're behind me, you're responsible for looking after you and yours!

Yellow and White - goodness knows ! We don't do those in the UK! Does it mean the horse is a coward...... you know like a white flag or a yellow streak!? Or is it just an American Horse and we really must have a fancy ribbon in its tail :winkgrin:

[Thomas_1]

whoops just read on and saw the answers to the first 2 are already there!

[J Swan]

Wow - Thomas is flummoxed.

Ok - I'll tell you.

Yellow means a stallion.

White means For Sale. So if you had a horse for sale and you were competing it, or hunting it - whatever, the white ribbon would be a way to advertise that the horse is for sale.

Hopefully, when wearing the white ribbon, the horse doesn't do anything stupid and affect the price.

Or - be mistaken for a Frenchman. Get it? I'm so funny.....

[wateryglen]

OK now I'm TOTALLY confused!!!
Did I get skirter right? How many points do I get!??!! Where my trophy!?
Chop - a sudden kill as in the fox runs out in front of a hound while exiting a covert and gets "chopped" or grabbed quickly? A lotta rabbits get chopped foothunting but often the hound drops it cuz he's so surprised he caught him!! And he gets away!! yea!! Isn't it kinda hound instinct to snap at their quarry anyway? or......is chop what foxhunters do to their food at huntbreakfasts!! :winkgrin: as in....Wateryglen has been know to chop her food after hunts...!!!

[wateryglen]

I actually hunted once with a horse that had red/green & white ribbons in its tail.....yep! a green kicker that was for sale!! yippeeee! It was Xmas time and I'm bettin' I'm the only one who really knew what was goin' on!!
Wateryglen shakes her head! :no:

[Equibrit]

Nobody has answered the skirter question yet.

While you're guessing - what is "billett" ?

[Catersun]

OK now I'm TOTALLY confused!!!
Did I get skirter right? How many points do I get!??!! Where my trophy!?
Chop - a sudden kill as in the fox runs out in front of a hound while exiting a covert and gets "chopped" or grabbed quickly? A lotta rabbits get chopped foothunting but often the hound drops it cuz he's so surprised he caught him!! And he gets away!! yea!! Isn't it kinda hound instinct to snap at their quarry anyway? or......is chop what foxhunters do to their food at huntbreakfasts!! :winkgrin: as in....Wateryglen has been know to chop her food after hunts...!!!

I think i SHOULD get credit... Chop- I said a tasty morsel that the hounds eat ;-) lol j/k

[fernie fox]

Maybe that one is used in UK only.

But it sure applies in our hunt.;)

[Beverley]

Coffee Housing. Maybe that one is used in UK only.

But it sure applies in our hunt.;)

Oh, no, it's used here too. Annoying, isn't it?:)

[J Swan]

I think i SHOULD get credit... Chop- I said a tasty morsel that the hounds eat ;-) lol j/k


Why is it that I have 3 horses and am not hunting today? Because....Number One is a confirmed dog kicker with no brakes, Number Two has a loose shoe, and Number Three is - well - three.

In short - I'm all dressed up with no place to go.

So I'm home drinking coffee and pondering whether or not to give Catersun credit for the "chop" answer. In the spirit of good sportsmanship, I vote we give her credit as I am trying to get her hooked on hunting - all that's left is to reel her in. :D


Billett- is fox scat.


I loathe coffeehousing - but I admit to being guilty of it once or twice. No excuse - just stuck in the back looking at riders butts for 4 hours tends to make my mind wander.....

I've only seen a larker a couple of times - and boy did those folks pick the wrong jumps to school on. There's a reason we didn't jump those coops. 'Nuff said.


Let's see - - - - - something easy......

Rate.

[fernie fox]

What is a Thruster??

We have a few at our hunt.

[Tantivy1]

Someone who bullies their way to the front of the field and butts in line to be the first over a panel and/or takes their own line to be the first to jump.

[Tantivy1]

I mentioned to someone the other day that I had been "thrown out" of the field and they looked at me in horror asking whatever did I do to be treated like that? :)

So....what exactly had I done?

[Equibrit]

What is a Thruster??

We have a few at our hunt.


That obnoxiuos asshole up the sharp end.

[Painted Wings]

A thruster is a rider that keeps at the front of the field.

"thrown out" I believe is a term generally used for a whip that is left out of the action due to a run taking an unexpected turn away from them.

[Catersun]

someone please explain what coffee housing is??

[Beverley]

someone please explain what coffee housing is??

Certainly- it refers to chitchat (usually too loud!) among members of the field, when they shouldn't be making any noise at all. As though they were at a coffeehouse rather than out hunting. It's a no no because 1) huntsman, whippers-in and field master need to be able to hear the hounds so they know what is happening, and where, 2) at times it has the potential to distract hounds. I've been amused/annoyed when in whipper-in position, a quarter mile or more away from the field, I could hear them!

Sidenote, 'any' noise that interferes with a huntsman's ability to hear the hounds is a faux pas. This is why it is so valuable to have a horse that stands still. If they are being circled in dead leaves, or pawing in dead leaves, that creates a heck of a racket!

[wateryglen]

I guessed skirter...didn't I get skirter?!!....somebody please tell me if I know what a skirter is!!! If I was wrong; please tell me!
Skirter, skirter, skirter.....too much trivia for so small a brain!
hmmmmm.....

EVERY hunt has coffee housing! EVERY hunt! At some point, at some time. And I have done it......I admit it.....I'm in rehab for it....go to a group meetings once a week....."Hello, I'm Waterglen and I'm a coffee houser!"......There MAY be a group near you!

[Equibrit]

A skirter is a hound that doesn't follow the exact line and cuts corners.

[Dalriada]

Rate - warning or correction of the hounds by the Master or Huntsman.


Gee and I haven't foxhunted or done Pony Club in over 20 years but that one stuck in the brain.

What is "lark"?

[Equibrit]

Jumping fences unnecessarily and generally fooling about.

[Thomas_1]

I always thought that coffee housing was someone trying to distract or annoy others by talking and messing about when you are supposed to be either lining out or watching hounds

Billet is fox sh**

What about Curdog?

[J Swan]

Curdog - any dawg that don't hunt.

Also used to rate hounds interested in taking a break and going over to meet or eat a local pet dog - we'll say "CURDOG" to tell the hound to ignore the dawg.

[Thomas_1]

Curdog - any dawg that don't hunt.
:yes:

[Anne FS]

What a great thread. So sorry I just found it now. I actually knew what a leash of hounds was, but have never heard it in conjunction with scent hounds, only with sighthounds like greyhounds or Borzoi. With the Borzoi, it was more common to release three at a time.

Have we done the collective noun for foxes yet?

[Equibrit]

Skulk.
Leash.

[Anne FS]

Yes!

Also, earth.

[BridalBridle]

three hounds??? Menage a trois!!!!!

[Equibrit]

An earth is a fox house.

[Anne FS]

Yes, and that's why it's also used as a collective noun for multiple foxes.

[J Swan]

three hounds??? Menage a trois!!!!!

No no - that's what the hot pen is for! Naughty hounds!


So - ladies and germs -what is a hot pen and why would a hound be in it? And why is it a good idea to have one?

What is marking? And what does the huntsman do when it happens?

[Painted Wings]

A hot pen is for bitches in heat to keep them separate from the rest of the pack to avoid unwanted matings.

When the hounds mark the huntsman blows "gone to ground" on his horn

[Equibrit]

Yes, and that's why it's also used as a collective noun for multiple foxes.

Where?

[Anne FS]

The U.S. Geological Survey, for one. And the Oxford dictionary, for another.

Geez, Equibrit, take a chill pill. I feel so bad for you.

[J Swan]

The U.S. Geological Survey, for one. And the Oxford dictionary, for another.

Geez, Equibrit, take a chill pill. I feel so bad for you.

Equibrit - I think that qualifies as a "rate". Bad hound. Sit. Stay.

[Equibrit]

Amazing - all these folks who know how I feel!

The Oxford Dictionary sitting on my desk does not agree with your position and it's the really
fat one. BTW, when did the U.S. Geological survey become an arbiter in the use of the english language.

[Anne FS]

You misunderstand (obviously). We're telling you how WE feel. :D

[J Swan]

I guess you two need to go in the hot pen. If you wanna fight, go in the dressage forum and start a thread on Anky's bra size or something.


Back to trivia/terminology:

What is a huntsman trying to do when he Lifts?

[Equibrit]

Who is "we" ?

NB. Webster also does not support your position.
(My copy of which is even fatter than the OED)

This is not a fight - merely a debate.
Can't you tell the difference?
Debate = fun.
Fight = crass (to say the least)

[Equibrit]

He takes them to where he knows scent to be. To lift and disappoint the hounds is very bad form!

[Anne FS]

NB. Webster also does not support your position.


So what? Oxford DOES, and so does the USGS, and of course more. That's good enough for me. What is your problem tonight? You want to come after me, take it private, Equibrit.

Back on topic: how about what is badger pie?

[Xanthoria]

It must be a US vs UK difference - I've never heard of earth used as a collective term for foxes in the UK.

In the area of the UK I grew up:
Two foxes, hares or game birds = a brace.
Three foxes = brace and a half.
Two hounds = a couple
Three hounds = couple and a half

Chop = when hounds kill a fox immediately without running it.

How about "given best"

[Anne FS]

It must be a US vs UK difference - I've never heard of earth used as a collective term for foxes in the UK.


I've rarely heard it, but when I was looking it up one of the many sources was from New Zealand, as well as the Oxford dictionary, so it seems to be here & there. I never liked "skulk" - it seems so unfair!

Given best: when the fox wins and you stop hunting it. It is "given best," like it got the best of the hounds this day, and the hunt for that fox is over.

Did we do leveret yet?

[Anne FS]

Wait, "leveret" should be bonus points. I'm thinking Hounds and Hunting, not exclusively FOX hounds.

[Xanthoria]

I've rarely heard it, but when I was looking it up one of the many sources was from New Zealand, as well as the Oxford dictionary, so it seems to be here & there. I never liked "skulk" - it seems so unfair!

Given best: when the fox wins and you stop hunting it. It is "given best," like it got the best of the hounds this day, and the hunt for that fox is over.


OK, how about "given law"? ;)

I think leveret was covered - baby hare. But then what's a "form"?

[Anne FS]

Is given law when you're allowed to do something, say given permission by the Master to do something that generally wouldn't be allowed? That applies to people, though. Is it hounds, too? Like my 17yo beagle is given law to sleep on any piece of furniture she wants. The young Shepherd pup is not.

I'll let someone else answer "Form."

And what's a "puss"? Keep it clean! :D

[Xanthoria]

Given law is when you allow the fox a head start before you run it - in the name of fairness.

Form: hint - it's to do with leverets! Just like puss ;)

[Equibrit]

I've rarely heard it,

That would be because it's incorrect.
It's only an earth of foxes when they're at home!

What are you doing if you "Put to" ?

Form is a hare's lair.
Puss is a hare - I think.

[Catersun]

to put to... would be hitching up the wagon that catersun is riding around in BEHIND all of the action.... *sniff* looks like I missed a fun round of trivia.... Please toon back in at 5pm Eastern Standard Time NEXT Tuesday... Thankyou All and Have a Good Night.

[Anne FS]

That would be because it's incorrect.


Yeah, sure. Keep trying. You're about as successful with this as with your other comments. Now, mon petit, you are to be ignored like any other chien de cabot.

Xanthoria: thanks for the "given law" def. I'm sure you know badger pie, too.

Ooh - here's an old one: Warrantable (as applied to game).

[Equibrit]

Quarry fit to be hunted (as in stag hunting)

[Xanthoria]

Xanthoria: thanks for the "given law" def. I'm sure you know badger pie, too.

I don't! What on earth...?? :confused:

[Anne FS]

Quarry fit to be hunted (as in stag hunting)

Yes! Exactly.

[Anne FS]

Badger pie is a hound color, similar to a badger's coloring, and is a mix of yellow, brown, white, gray, and black hairs. "Pie" because it's often pied - iow, patches of the badger color are on the hound.

Since you don't hear too much about badgers anymore (unless you read Wind in the Willows or are a University of Wisconsin fan) I googled to find a photo of the yellowy kind of coat color. This is the best I could find this morning:

http://www.ravingbadgers.co.uk/Euro-Badger.jpg

[Equibrit]

That would be characteristic of a hound with Fell type breeding in his background, not the more typical smart square "Peterborough" type of hound. You could also include "hare pie".

[J Swan]

Ahhhh - that's why I'm not familiar with that hound color. I have not seen such hounds in the US. You know - I don't even think I've seen such hounds at hound shows. I'll have to think on it.

Did you two belong to the same hunt or something? ;)

So here's an easy hound question. (on this side of the pond)

What are the names of the 3 lines the modern American foxhound has descended from?


(cut me a break on grammar - it's too early in the am for me to make sense.)

[wateryglen]

WhOA! Jswan is soooooo intellectuable!!

I'll try....Walker, July, Trigg, bloodhound and some danged ole English hounds I'm sure! I know the first imported pack was Robert DeLaBrookes that hunted the eastern shore of the Chesapeake bay (now Maryland/Virginia). I doubt the local indians had any hounds we can lay claim to being decendants! ;) The modern DeLaBrooke hounds carry on the tradition! But I also recall our modern hounds have some kinda French hound too....yep....got mention the French!! I think modern French stag hounds look a lot like current American hounds.

I read somewhere that DelaBrooke also imported his native red foxes to that area so they spread out all over the eastern north america originally from there! Cool!

[J Swan]

So much for that.

Shoulda known better to ask a question about American hounds with Wateryglen around. She's a bit of an American Hound groupie.

Yes, July, Trigg and Walker.


All the real foxhunters must be out hunting today - so I'll ask another hound question in the hope that when they get back, they'll chime in.

What is a cat footed hound?

[Anne FS]

Well, since I'm stuck at work I'll answer the cat foot question.

It's a good thing.

Nice tight, round, well-knuckled foot, like a cat's foot is (not those sad declawed specimens whose poor feet are no longer their God-given shape), but a real cat foot.

Cat foot as opposed to a hare foot. :D

[wateryglen]

American Hound WORSHIPPER!!!

But.....I'm not up on their histories tho'. I think, just think, that they descended from blood hound and somethng crosses. English? French?
And the Walker, July's, Triggs are really just regional versions of these mixed breed hounds. Walker was the name of a famous breeder? Wasn't he in the Rappahannock area? And Julys are from the Georgia area?
Anyone?
Either way, I'm sad about how many american packs have gone crossbred.

[Equibrit]

Interesting website; http://fasdawg.tripod.com/history.html

Pilfered text;

The July strain came into prominence in Georgia. This strain was preceded by the Birdsong Hounds, native Georgia Hounds, the Henry Hounds from Virginia and Maryland hounds from Howard County, Maryland. In 1858, Mr. Nimrod Gosnell shipped a male hound to Colonel Miles G. Harris of Sparta, Georgia. This hound was named July for the month in which he arrived. This hound was outstanding and others of this strain were imported. July was crossed on the Birdsong and Henry Hounds. George J. Garrett, Col. Gil F. Birdsong, Miles G. Harris and Capt. Dick Baxter were probably the founding breeders of this strain. At one time, this strain was called July-Maryland. This strain, as exists today, is different in conformation from the Walker Hounds.
The Trigg strain was founded by Col. Haiden Trigg of Kentucky. His aim was to breed a hound with a good coarse voice; black, white and tan blanket-backed; with white points. He crossed Walkers, July, Birdsong and other strains to arrive at his ideal foxhound. After his death, the strain decreased in popularity, but in recent years, has made a strong comeback and is quite popular today. They have big voices and are close track runners.

[Equibrit]

Either way, I'm sad about how many american packs have gone crossbred.

Are they not just having a "bloodline refresher" - after all they always have been crossbreds, haven't they? I know a bunch of American blood has gone the other way across the pond to freshen things up there. It's an ongoing process; improving your bloodlines to suit your needs.

[J Swan]

I have a great book called Hunting Hounds. It's not a foxhunting (english style) book - it's just an oldish book on all sorts of American Hounds.

Well worth having in one's library (anyone interested in scent hounds - not just foxhunting)

It even mentions the Bywater strain - which has always been an enigma to me and I could never find out as much detail as I could on the July Walker and Trigg lines.

[Equibrit]

The July Hound http://www.geocities.com/julyhounds/july-history.html

They all seem to be linked up in Kentucky.

[Beverley]

What is meant by:

1. Room to Fall
2. Running heel
3. Honor
4. Double

[MapleMeadows]

I'll make a guess at "room to fall"... leaving enough room between you and the horse in front especially over a fence so if a fall should occur you don't land on your fellow rider!?!

"Double" is when the huntsman blows his or her horn in little quick blasts to let others know the hounds are on a line or to cheer the hounds on.

We see a lot of "running heel" in our drag pack. The foxes (laying our drag line) usually don't like it, but it doesn't bother me and our huntsman doesn't get to upset when it happens either. How often does that happen when hunting live?

[Painted Wings]

Running heel happens with live hunts too. Our Huntsman hates it.

[Beverley]

Yes, GotheDistance and MapleMeadows, you got it. Yes, running heel does happen, it usually doesn't take much to get them set straight provided staff is on the ball.

But, it's an important reason for indicated the DIRECTION of the quarry's movement when one views, so that the huntsman can save valuable time on approaching in setting up the hounds to find in the right direction.

So, okay, with that clue, what DOES one do when one views the quarry? Hint, no talking or yelling involved.:)

[lizathenag]

So, okay, with that clue, what DOES one do when one views the quarry? Hint, no talking or yelling involved.:)


Stand in your irons and point with your hat the direction the quarry has gone.

Can I play? How does one teach the cubs to run straight from the covert (during cubbing)?

[rivenoak]

leveret: baby bunny

[Beverley]

Can I play? How does one teach the cubs to run straight from the covert (during cubbing)?

Ya got me there, I've never known anyone who had the ability, or even attempted, to 'train' the fox! Besides which, one doesn't want them to run straight, their natural loops are far more conducive to an enjoyable day.

So, while waiting for that answer, I'll toss out another one. What is meant by the term 'to rate,' and who would typically be doing it?

[lizathenag]

I think rate is punishing (perhaps a harsh word from the staff) the hounds.

I was taught in the 60s that cubbing was to train the cubs to run as well as the young entry.

the covert would be surrounded by folks and when the cubs started to break from the covert, folks would make noise to send the cubs back in. Finally they would be allowed to escape the covert and would run like their tails were on fire.

at least that is my memory.

[J Swan]

I don't know "room to fall" unless it's the obvious.

Beverly -you got me on training the cub to run straight from covert. I never heard of such a thing. Tell us more.

Rate is correcting a hound and the huntsman would typically do it.

I've got some:

What is a babbler?

What is "Cheer"?

What is a "tail hound"?

[Beverley]

I think rate is punishing (perhaps a harsh word from the staff) the hounds.

I was taught in the 60s that cubbing was to train the cubs to run as well as the young entry.

the covert would be surrounded by folks and when the cubs started to break from the covert, folks would make noise to send the cubs back in. Finally they would be allowed to escape the covert and would run like their tails were on fire.

at least that is my memory.

Actually, the technique to which you refer- surrounding the covert- is in my experience designed to keep the young hounds in covert so that they learn how to draw with the rest of the pack. Attempting to pressure a fox of any age into remaining where they don't want to be would result in their 'panic response' of shutting off the scent glands, so the hounds wouldn't be able to hunt them. Which is why, when one views a fox, one should wait until the fox is well away before any vocalizing to inform the huntsman. Yes, cubhunting does familiarize the cubs with being pursued by hounds, but in any given draw, the huntsman is not going to be able to assume that a covert contains young or old or in-between foxes.

And yes, rate is 'harshly' correcting a wayward hound, typically by a whipper-in since they are supposed to be the 'bad guys' and the huntsman is supposed to be the 'good guy.' Example- whipper in in proper position, on the 'outer reaches' of where hounds should be 'looking' for the quarry- if a hound wanders to that perimeter, a whipper-in would growl 'back to him' meaning the hound should work back toward the huntsman.

[ArtilleryHill]

Beverley notes that the surrounding of a covert during cub-hunting is not for the purpose of keeping cubs in. That undoubtedly is true at many hunts in North America today, but, interestingly, in England historically--certainly before the ban!--the point was very much to keep cubs in. This shows, among other things, the differences between hunting as it was traditionally practiced in England, for culling foxes, versus the way it is conducted in the U.S. today. There is a great account of this in Cecil Aldin's book "Ratcatcher to Scarlet." As he puts it:

"In the first place we want to hold-up cubs: that is to say, prevent them from coming out of the wood. For that reason we stand, not close to the edge, but some way out in the centre of fields ... If we were close to the covert, a cub might pop out and dart away, leaving us behind instead of in front of him. Where we now are, by tapping our saddle flaps with our whips, foxes will see us, even if they come ten or twenty yards out of the wood, and if we ride towards them at a tangent will in all probability dart back in again. That is the reason for standing in the middle of the field and not close to the wood."

[Equibrit]

I don't know "room to fall" unless it's the obvious.

Beverly -you got me on training the cub to run straight from covert. I never heard of such a thing. Tell us more.

Rate is correcting a hound and the huntsman would typically do it.

I've got some:

What is a babbler? A hound with loose lips!

What is "Cheer"? Praising a hound.

What is a "tail hound"? The one hanging in the back

What does "All on" mean?

[Beverley]

There is a great account of this in Cecil Aldin's book "Ratcatcher to Scarlet." As he puts it:

"In the first place we want to hold-up cubs: that is to say, prevent them from coming out of the wood. For that reason we stand, not close to the edge, but some way out in the centre of fields ... If we were close to the covert, a cub might pop out and dart away, leaving us behind instead of in front of him. Where we now are, by tapping our saddle flaps with our whips, foxes will see us, even if they come ten or twenty yards out of the wood, and if we ride towards them at a tangent will in all probability dart back in again. That is the reason for standing in the middle of the field and not close to the wood."

Good info, thanks! Yes, other notable differences, in the US the stopping of earths hasn't been done as in the UK. And we give best when the fox goes to ground, rather than sending in the terrier man.

'All on' means all hounds are present and accounted for.

[Beverley]

This is easier with the color artwork...look at the Chronicle masthead up at the top of the page. What hunting action is depicted? And, testing the memories of long time Chronicle subscribers, what phrase used to be part of the artwork, associated with the hunting action?

[J Swan]

I'm not sure but I think it's chasing rabbit/hare? I don't have a magazine handy and I'm looking at the top of this page.

I've been reading COTH religiously since the late 70's -but you got me on that one. I don't remember.

How many of y'all use to wallpaper tackrooms and tack boxes with the paper? I wish they still used that paper.......


Did anyone get "room to fall" right?

[Beverley]

I'm not sure but I think it's chasing rabbit/hare? I don't have a magazine handy and I'm looking at the top of this page.

I've been reading COTH religiously since the late 70's -but you got me on that one. I don't remember.

How many of y'all use to wallpaper tackrooms and tack boxes with the paper? I wish they still used that paper.......


Did anyone get "room to fall" right?

Yes, somebody got room to fall- leaving enough space between yourself and horse in front, especially jumping, that you can pull up in time should that rider take a dive.

I never wallpapered, but I did recently find a stash of the paper ones! I had rolled them inside of nylons to make boot trees and just found those boots on an archeological dig of the guest room closet.

As for the Chronicle logo, one needs to focus on the figures to the left and right of 'Horse.' Yes, there does seem to be a wabbit lower left, which might figure into the equation...but how is at issue...

[J Swan]

Okay Alex, I'll take Chronicle Masthead for 100$.....


The hound could be running heel and the lawful quarry is the cottontail/hare? But why would a whipper-in crack the whip behind a hound - would not the whip want to get in front of the hound to turn it?

If the hound was rioting.... the hound would be traveling the other way - and the rider would be cracking the whip to get the hound to lift.

Geez - looks like I might miss out on the final round of COTH jeopardy. I dunno - but I'm eager for your explanation!

I bet you could sell those old issues on ebay.......

[Beverley]

Okay Alex, I'll take Chronicle Masthead for 100$.....


The hound could be running heel and the lawful quarry is the cottontail/hare? But why would a whipper-in crack the whip behind a hound - would not the whip want to get in front of the hound to turn it?

If the hound was rioting.... the hound would be traveling the other way - and the rider would be cracking the whip to get the hound to lift.

Geez - looks like I might miss out on the final round of COTH jeopardy. I dunno - but I'm eager for your explanation!

I bet you could sell those old issues on ebay.......

Oh, not so fast...maybe some other old fogey will have a guess...keep workin' that covert...

[Beverley]

Oh, well, guess nobody else wanted to play. Yes, that whipper in has knocked that bad, bad hound off of the riot and is reinforcing the rate, using whip and no doubt voice, because that hound has done a bad, bad thing, and best head back to the huntsman and be good for evermore. Hound showing some chagrin, if not remorse, is indeed heading back to the huntsman with his stern between his legs.

The slogan that used to appear in the artwork was:

'A true line needs no whip.'

And that little banner listing disciplines has changed over the years too, used to include mention of racing. I'll just have to find one of the old Chronicles to see what got added over the years, I would guess dressage and eventing.

[J Swan]

Glad you responded. It was bugging me.

I wonder if that phrase is a quote or if COTH made it up back in the day.....

I like it.

I forgot they used to have racing. It sure has changed over the years.

[MapleMeadows]

Beverley thanks for giving us the answer...I've been wanting to take a stab at it but was afraid of looking stupid!

[fernie fox]

The reason I have not replied is because the differrences between here, and the UK foxhunting I remember are vast.:lol:

Especially cubbing ;)

Great thread though.:lol:

[xeroxchick]

American Hound WORSHIPPER!!!


Either way, I'm sad about how many american packs have gone crossbred.

Ouch!

[J Swan]

Beverley thanks for giving us the answer...I've been wanting to take a stab at it but was afraid of looking stupid!


Hey - it never stopped me!:D


Beverly - DO NOT throw away those old COTH issues. I am on a secret mission and may need them. Not for wallpaper. ;)

[Rackonteur]

... and how is/are it/they pronounced?

Gosh, I just noticed what an old thread this is! Wonder if anyone will reply?

[Equibrit]

You just scream.

[awm]

View Halloo or Halloa-----view *Holler* !!!

How about Rasper?

Rack?

Make?

Great thread! What ever happened to the vintage Chronicles?!!!!!!!!

[wateryglen]

Skirter! I got skirter!! woooppppeeee!
Did you know that the rebel yell of the Confederate Army is the same Holler that southern hunts are likely to imitate. Which came first? I always do a rebel yell when I holler. Rarely yell tally ho. I'm yeller hollerer.

[Corky]

I have an honest question/riddle. I'd actually like to know this!

If a young fox is a kit, and a young hound is a pup, then why do we have a cubbing season?!

We sighted during cubbing this year, and it started a conversation about correct terms, as it appeared to be a young fox we sighted. Someone called it a fox cub, someone else corrected that a young fox is a kit, and I asked why we weren't 'kitting' then?

[JSwan]

Kit - baby fox

Cub - young fox who has struck out to find his own territory.

During cubbing you'll encounter more young foxes that are transient - they're looking to establish their own territory. You may notice it while you're hunting - they may run differently.

That's what I was taught. Your mileage may differ.

[Nbairnsfather]

Hare pie? I think I remember that from "Revenge of the Nerds" ......