PDA

View Full Version : Quote from Pat Parelli regarding WAZ



Pages : [1] 2

LMH
Oct. 11, 2007, 07:10 AM
'We've run into a grand master of dressage. A master of lightness and politeness. His name is Walter Zettl and he's a wonderful, gentle old man. And he only teaches two people in the world. He's made a commitment for the rest of his life to only teach Pat and Linda. Because he's searched all over the world and he's never found--he's finally found what he was looking for. Someone who uses lightness and politeness, and love, language, leadership. He'd been looking for it and he'd been doing it, but he'd never found a kindred situation. And this man knows what it takes to have the lighteness and politeness. He doesn't know too much about our methodology--or didn't--but now he does because he's been studying it like crazy...'


This kind of floors me.

It has been rumored in Parelli land for months but this was actually spoken on RFD last night...read it on another forum.

I actually could never believe it...and now I guess it is true.

Makes me kind of sad...but maybe WAZ's age and health were just limiting him?

If that IS the case, perhaps this is some kind of 'retirement' arrangement that will allow WAZ to do what he loves and not have to travel?

It is no secret that I enjoy much of the Parelli program but this really confuses me.

Perhaps someone 'in the know' could shed some light?

merrygoround
Oct. 11, 2007, 07:52 AM
Why don't you wait to see what WAZ does! :) :)

egontoast
Oct. 11, 2007, 08:20 AM
Baloney !

artisticgold
Oct. 11, 2007, 08:30 AM
This is almost funny, except that some people will believe it....Not to mention the fact that WAZ is giving a clinic next week and the week after at my friend's house, with some people that he has been teaching for over 20 years...And will continue to do so. So, HOGWASH! I'm starting the think PP has some sort of GOD complex going on.

Melissa.Van Doren
Oct. 11, 2007, 08:41 AM
OMG.

I don't know how PP sits on a horse with those cojones.

Unfortunately, WAZ is too much of a gentleman to tell him what to do with that ridiculous statement.

SerenaGinger
Oct. 11, 2007, 08:42 AM
http://walterzettl.net/pages/clinics.html

"Walter is back at it!

2007 Clinic Schedule
[annotated]

10/02 - 10/03

Baltimore, MD Jane Siegler jane@reddemeade.com

10/18 - 10/19

Houghton, NY Jo-Anne Young Joanne.Young@houghton.edu

10/27 - 10/28

East Lansing, MI Dr. Hilary Clayton/LeeAnne Kaiser
KAISERL2@cvm.msu.edu

11/16 - 11/18

Wadsworth, OH Brenda Aughenbaugh (330) 239-4923"


I agree - God complex for the pepperonis. :rolleyes:

SillyHorse
Oct. 11, 2007, 08:57 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Maybe I'll do both. :confused::lol::(:lol::(:confused::rolleyes:

dalpal
Oct. 11, 2007, 09:09 AM
I watched this last night as well and was laughing my butt off.

Oh, but you left out the part where he told his followers that "Did you know that the world's greatest dressage rider couldn't even walk her horse into the awards ceremony? Her horse ran away with her and it took 6 policemen with baracades to stop her horse." And of course you hear everyone laughing.

I guess Mr. Parelli has NEVER in his life had a horse take off with him. Yeah, right.

That's when he launched into Mr. Zettl and how there are only 2 people Mr. Zettl is willing to teach...Pat and Linda Parelli because Mr. Zettl appreciates lightness and is taking time to really study the Parelli Program.

And would someone teach Patti how to freakin pronouce Dressage???? If he says DRESS AGE One more time, I'm going to pull my hair out.

And yes, I admit it, I watch his show to just to hear the stupid things come out of his mouth.

dalpal
Oct. 11, 2007, 09:13 AM
Oh and my take on WAZ......they probably have given him a huge amount of money to teach them so they can throw his name around.

I wish Patti would just shut up and do his demonstrations instead of bashing DRESS AGE every chance he gets.

This demo was in Australia and they were in the Sydney Olympics DRESS AGE warm up arena.

Miss-O
Oct. 11, 2007, 09:26 AM
WOW!

I may have respected SOME of this guys techniques but MAN I just can't get over wondering how he can talk with all that $hit constantly spewing out of his mouth.

Why doesn't anyone PUBLICLY call him out on this crap?

MyReality
Oct. 11, 2007, 09:30 AM
Where is the original source of this quote? Can the OP post a link or a reference?

I must be dreaming when I saw WAZ taught at Troika last year.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 11, 2007, 10:11 AM
Wow. Only Linda and Pat are the true disciples?

Wow.

Hey, by the way, there's this bridge in Brooklyn...I'm selling it...for you, I'll strike a deal...

Freebird!
Oct. 11, 2007, 10:12 AM
I can't BELIEVE you guys are actually laughing at them!!!!

Why did you KNOW that they are able to do upper level dressage moves all while using twisty ties on the reins????

I saw the same show last night, with the lame gelding running around the arena.

Also - for the OP, and others who watched it - did you catch where he talked about being floored when a GP rider got run away with at a big awards ceremony, and had to have several police help her stop her horse, because she couldn't control it?

Freebird!
Oct. 11, 2007, 10:14 AM
I watched this last night as well and was laughing my butt off.

Oh, but you left out the part where he told his followers that "Did you know that the world's greatest dressage rider couldn't even walk her horse into the awards ceremony? Her horse ran away with her and it took 6 policemen with baracades to stop her horse." And of course you hear everyone laughing.

I guess Mr. Parelli has NEVER in his life had a horse take off with him. Yeah, right.

That's when he launched into Mr. Zettl and how there are only 2 people Mr. Zettl is willing to teach...Pat and Linda Parelli because Mr. Zettl appreciates lightness and is taking time to really study the Parelli Program.

And would someone teach Patti how to freakin pronouce Dressage???? If he says DRESS AGE One more time, I'm going to pull my hair out.

And yes, I admit it, I watch his show to just to hear the stupid things come out of his mouth.



Oh you beat me to it - sorry, lol.


I agree though - he is the FIRST cowboy I have ever heard pronounce Dressage, DRES-sage.

Ilex
Oct. 11, 2007, 10:41 AM
I got some oceanfront property in Arizona......

Mozart
Oct. 11, 2007, 10:42 AM
Sadly, it does nothing for WAZ's name to permit statements like that to go unchallenged. And if it is true, well, I guess that is very sad too.

Ilex
Oct. 11, 2007, 10:44 AM
unfortunately I bought it from my trainer.........

who bought it from the parellis

Ilex
Oct. 11, 2007, 10:46 AM
it comes w/a carrot stick.......

and a glass house!

petitefilly
Oct. 11, 2007, 10:55 AM
I'm not sure how to get the public to give Pat et al a huge raspberry, but it sure would be nice to have the thousands of riders who have had WAZ teach them get together and take a big picture of everyone with their raspberry ready to go. I'd say flip him a bird or two also! :) What a piece of work Parelli is. GAWD!

Adamantane
Oct. 11, 2007, 11:28 AM
Where is the original source of this quote? Can the OP post a link or a reference?

I must be dreaming when I saw WAZ taught at Troika last year.

By a fluke I happened to see the last ten minutes or so of PP on RFD last night as I sorted through 1099's and muttered curses at the IRS.

Heard the words emanate from PP's mouth best I can tell word for word as transcribed here.

Was so astonished that I stopped sorting the bloody tax documents, went to the WAZ website and saw the very same clinic schedule posted here. Scratched my head.

PP seemed very full of himself last night as he walked around the ring being followed by the horse.

Who knows what to make of it. There are some PP-related things posted on the WAZ website, so whether there's the identified fire or not, there's definitely smoke.

For my part, the prospect of PP in breeches would be shock enough.

lstevenson
Oct. 11, 2007, 11:36 AM
OMG.

I don't know how PP sits on a horse with those cojones.

Unfortunately, WAZ is too much of a gentleman to tell him what to do with that ridiculous statement.



My thoughts exactly.

Adamantane
Oct. 11, 2007, 11:41 AM
Oh, but you left out the part where he told his followers that "Did you know that the world's greatest dressage rider couldn't even walk her horse into the awards ceremony? Her horse ran away with her and it took 6 policemen with baracades to stop her horse." And of course you hear everyone laughing.

Well, heck. Whatever one might think about PP, you have to give the devil his due. In the context of the specific point he was making at the time about very light contact the story did fit in, and of course it was true, even if a tad deceptive. (We all read the lengthy thread on that earlier AVG mishap when it happened. At least PP skipped over her coming off the other day.)

findeight
Oct. 11, 2007, 11:57 AM
WAZ ONLY works with two people in the WORLD?

Isn't that like those weird cults that say God speaks to them and only to them? They are the sole interpreters of God's will to their followers?

'Course WAZ is no deity...:rolleyes:

kaluha2
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:07 PM
OMG.

"I don't know how PP sits on a horse with those cojones."

This is the best line I have read in years.

First it was Linda flapping her jaws about something she knows nothing about. So, she has been quiet for along time now and her idiot husband is now filling her shoes.

They are both meant for each other. Idiots.

Sandy M
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:10 PM
Wow, how does WAZ survive on the income from teaching only TWO people in the WORLD!!!! And why in the world are clinics with WAZ advertised if only PP and LP can attend? I mean - WAZ is forcing them to run all around the country to take lessons? Or is he coordinating his clinics with the Parelli Dog & Pony Show?

PiaffeDreams
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:24 PM
I've not had much respect for the Pepperonis for eons: if this is not true (and I sincerely don't think it is true) then I have lost every last ounce of respect that might have existed for them. If it IS true that WAZ will only teach them, it would make me lose a lot of respect for WAZ.

How anyone can describe the Pepperoni program as "light and polite" is beyond me. Sure there are dressage riders and trainers who are decidedly NOT "light and polite" however a good many of them are. Enough in fact that this continued bashing of dressage to promote their own gain is ridiculous beyond belief. THat doesn't even cover the fact that you can pretend to be "light" all you want, but if you aren't effective you are just avoiding an issue.

I'd hope PP and many others would have the grace enough to realize that we all get run off with and bucked off. If you actually RIDE the darned beasts enough it can and will happen. PP himself has had a fair number of wrecks as have many many of his students. I know of broken backs, broken necks, and one story where PP himself had to have someone rope a horse he was on that he could not stop. (well a mule) When you make up your own rules and direct your own performances, you can take a horse that won't stand still and just keep moving it until it wants to. When his horse gets too strong in a demo, he just rides it harder and faster until it feels like it would rather not. SO for him to compare that to a competitive rider in a controlled enviroment with set parameters, is like comparing apples to oranges. Sitting on a horse and riding it are two different things.

Samantha37
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:25 PM
hahah melissa- that is hilarious :D

PP makes me want to throw up... anybody else?
and I LOVE WAZ... just hearing PPs name in the same sentence as WAZ is laughable...

Dressage4Fun
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:35 PM
and lets not forget the woman that was killed in one of his clinics by a stallion,, henc the no stallion rule,,, yes,, he is nice and polite.. and can control everything in his sphere,, look into my eyes,, deep into my eyes.

back to our regular programing

findeight
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:39 PM
...
Oh, but you left out the part where he told his followers that "Did you know that the world's greatest dressage rider couldn't even walk her horse into the awards ceremony? Her horse ran away with her and it took 6 policemen with baracades to stop her horse." And of course you hear everyone laughing.


Takes a special kind of person to make fun of the misfortunes of others for entertainement value. Asshat.
Takes a special kind of horseman to ridicule horse misbehavior when another is aboard it too. Can't think of a bad enough word though.

What a jerk off.:no:

NoDQhere
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:44 PM
Perhaps all the "dressage" people in the world should each throw $10.00 into a pot and use the money to sue the Pepperonis so they shut up about DRESSAGE!!! The P idiots make me want to barf :mad:

HopeHill
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:45 PM
I guess I'm confused:no: I swear that it's WAZ that I've been riding with once a month for the past 11 years (except during his surgeries) and I'm pretty sure that it's him that I'm going to be riding with next week too.

SillyHorse
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:52 PM
I guess I'm confused:no: I swear that it's WAZ that I've been riding with once a month for the past 11 years (except during his surgeries) and I'm pretty sure that it's him that I'm going to be riding with next week too.
Isn't it obvious? PP has created a WAZ pod person and is sending it around to do clinics. That way, PP gets money from his own clinics and from those taught by the WAZPod to unsuspecting DQs. Brilliant!

HopeHill
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:53 PM
That must be what it is ... a WAZ pod person.... :lol:

Sabovee
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:58 PM
How does anyone take the parellis seriously?? WTF.

SillyHorse
Oct. 11, 2007, 12:59 PM
Enjoy your WAZPod clinic, HopeHill! :lol:

Sebastian
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:01 PM
Wow... I better call my friend who sent me pictures of her clinic with WAZ last week and tell her she just had a really realistic dream. :winkgrin:

You just gotta laugh that $hit off.
Seb :lol:

RHdobes563
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:04 PM
At least PP skipped over her coming off the other day.)

Are you sure that this was a CURRENT program and not a rerun? Programs are shown over and over again. Check the date at the end; this may be a one or two year old episode.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:13 PM
My friends and I were joking about the next time they come to town bringing a few of a local breeders 3 year old warmbloods and letting him help us back them. These horses literally grew up in the pasture and they are around 17.1 and taller. One of them has drug and stepped on every single person at that barn including myself and he jumps out of every enclosure there. I would love to see the Ps disengage his hind quarters LOL.

Ja Da Dee
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:13 PM
Those of you taking clinics from WAZ should check back and let everyone know if WAZ has started using any PP methods.

dutchmike
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:16 PM
Oh well I am sure the PP cult followers will actually believe him:eek:. When will he build his own Parreli Town to follow in the steps of rev. Jones and Jones town

HopeHill
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:16 PM
In the clinics that I've done with WAZ I haven't encountered any PP methods being used, I've encountered common sense horse training and brillance from a master.:D

jej
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:30 PM
Unfortunately, you are judged by the company you keep.My opinion of the O'Connors and now Walter Zettl has definitely been affected in a negative fashion by their association with the Parellis.

Either both parties sacrificed their pride and integrity for money, or they genuinely believe(d)
that the Parellis are on the right track.

To each his own...

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:31 PM
Is this for real? :eek:
If anyone in San Francisco today sees a woman walking around shaking her head all day, that will be me. :mad:

Adamantane
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:35 PM
Here are links:

http://walterzettl.net/pages/news.html

http://walterzettl.net/pages/parelli_pressrelease.html

Would be interesting to get better information, particularly from Zettl's corner, since Parelli lacks credibility with the dressage community. (Ridiculing people does tend to annoy them, Pat.) This thread seems to be a textbook example of cognitive dissonance in action.

JSwan
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:37 PM
'We've run into a grand master of dressage. A master of lightness and politeness. His name is Walter Zettl and he's a wonderful, gentle old man. And he only teaches two people in the world. He's made a commitment for the rest of his life to only teach Pat and Linda.


At first I thought this was a joke.

Then I figured they had kidnapped WAZ and had locked the guy in their basement until he drank the kool-aid.

jillya
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:43 PM
Seriously though, I have a friend with an OTTB who was completely insane and the Parelli method turned this into a safe and fun horse where he otherwise probably would have been put down. Out of every system there probably is some good.

I have another friend with a very difficult horse who has completely turned around with this work and has even gone cattle penning.

I am curious the experiences people have had with Parelli because I have a hot, really smart and difficult horse I was considering doing Parelli with and would really like to hear experiences people have had with this. I am interested in the system not the annoying marketing hype.

Mozart
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:52 PM
Unfortunately, you are judged by the company you keep.My opinion of the O'Connors and now Walter Zettl has definitely been affected in a negative fashion by their association with the Parellis.

Either both parties sacrificed their pride and integrity for money, or they genuinely believe(d)
that the Parellis are on the right track.

To each his own...

Agreed. Whatever happened to the O'Connor/Parelli marriage? It's one thing to say "hey, I agree with some of what this NH guy says" and entirely another to so publicy announce a partnership of sorts.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if you snuck up behind one of the O'Connors and said "Parelli" in a loud voice...

Foxtrot's
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:53 PM
There are "natural" horsemen out there who earn respect. You don't have to use PP.

Equilibrium
Oct. 11, 2007, 01:56 PM
I've not had much respect for the Pepperonis for eons: if this is not true (and I sincerely don't think it is true) then I have lost every last ounce of respect that might have existed for them. If it IS true that WAZ will only teach them, it would make me lose a lot of respect for WAZ.

How anyone can describe the Pepperoni program as "light and polite" is beyond me. Sure there are dressage riders and trainers who are decidedly NOT "light and polite" however a good many of them are. Enough in fact that this continued bashing of dressage to promote their own gain is ridiculous beyond belief. THat doesn't even cover the fact that you can pretend to be "light" all you want, but if you aren't effective you are just avoiding an issue.

I'd hope PP and many others would have the grace enough to realize that we all get run off with and bucked off. If you actually RIDE the darned beasts enough it can and will happen. PP himself has had a fair number of wrecks as have many many of his students. I know of broken backs, broken necks, and one story where PP himself had to have someone rope a horse he was on that he could not stop. (well a mule) When you make up your own rules and direct your own performances, you can take a horse that won't stand still and just keep moving it until it wants to. When his horse gets too strong in a demo, he just rides it harder and faster until it feels like it would rather not. SO for him to compare that to a competitive rider in a controlled enviroment with set parameters, is like comparing apples to oranges. Sitting on a horse and riding it are two different things.

Well I for one took the opportunity to watch a clinic given by Linda on TV the other night. I wanted to see if maybe I wasn't having an open mind to the things they are preaching.

When I saw a horse being lunged from a rope around it's belly, which kept slipping back, and making the horse buck and kick out, I knew I was safe in my judgement. When I saw them constantly annoying them by flinging rope at them and walking closely behind with a stupid stick. I thought of all the people who ended up in hospital. Well I did think of all the poor horses that have run through fences with the belly lunge tried by someone who skipped a few levels. Anyway, then this crap of how a horse is bored when walking into a trailer so you have to make it fun for him by loading and unloading millions of times millions of diffrent ways including in and out of water, I thought pointless. Pointless because after all that, I wouldn't want to load if I was a horse because doing in as a bleeding exercise for an hour a day because you don't ride, would be terribly boring even if Linda says otherwise. And Linda yelling yahoo and cracking a whip at a horse that was a bit iffy on walking through barrells, to make it fun, was just plain stupid.

In my opinion, I thought Dressage horses were highly trained athletes with a job to do. Sometimes they are a bit on edge, but it's this edge that makes them brilliant. It is a constant give and take to achieve the spetacular results we are used to seeing nowadays. A nice quiet hack isn't going to be a superstar dressage horse. Most of my time was spent galloping racehorses, but top level dressage horses remind me of the good racehorses when in peak condition. A good pair of hands, lightness, finesse, and a good head on your shoulders keeps the horse with you. Sometimes it boils over, but most of the time not. I know a damn belly lunge won't solve a darn tooten thing.

Terri

Jaegermonster
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:01 PM
We are having the unbelievable honor here in my area of having the Parelli's here this weekend to spew that crap to their followers. They were on the morning news show, and Linda was bestowing pearls of wisdom to all of us, while Pat was "demonstrating" with a big black horse.
I did actually watch what he was doing, which appeared to be chasing the horse around the round pen with a DRES-SAGE whip. I thought I was going to throw up.

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:02 PM
Seriously though, I have a friend with an OTTB who was completely insane and the Parelli method turned this into a safe and fun horse where he otherwise probably would have been put down. Out of every system there probably is some good.

I have another friend with a very difficult horse who has completely turned around with this work and has even gone cattle penning.

I am curious the experiences people have had with Parelli because I have a hot, really smart and difficult horse I was considering doing Parelli with and would really like to hear experiences people have had with this. I am interested in the system not the annoying marketing hype.

Just find a good reputable every day trainer. Trainers all over the world are training horses every day to be good solid equine citizens. It's not rocket science.

But of course, horse owners who have no training experience whatsoever can seriously screw it up. And retraining horses (like OTTBs) can be more difficult than training a horse from scratch, but a horse is just a horse. None of them are born trained. And people aren't born knowing how to train. It's not magic, its just experience, knowledge and skills. So as they say, "Don't try this at home." But the trainer at the end of the street is probably just fine for what you need. :rolleyes:

jillya
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:23 PM
I have an awesome trainer who is very helpful. I guess I am in decision mode about keeping my horse or not because he can be a handful and is very talented. I saw my 2 friends who had difficult horses and it's almost as if their demeanors had changed through this work so I was hoping that type of thing would help TRANSFORM him into a non spooky enjoyable boy -obviously probably impossible.

claire
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:45 PM
Did anyone else notice in the Parelli photo the sign on the ring:

"Pat Parelli's Perfect Practice Pen" :rolleyes:

And whatever happened to the O'Conner/Parelli partnership?

I guess there is more $$$$ opportunity in the novice dressage rider realm.

~ Come one come all, step right up and join the Parelli Circus! :lol:

(If it IS true, sort of sad another respected trainer has caved in to the $$$ game)

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:48 PM
My horse was very difficult on the ground - past abuse, he's highly sensitive, he had not always been handled well.
What turned it around? Simple, basic classical groundwork.

AnotherRound
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:53 PM
Did anyone else notice in the Parelli photo the sign on the ring:

"Pat Parelli's Perfect Practice Pen" :rolleyes:

And whatever happened to the O'Conner/Parelli partnership?

I guess there is more $$$$ opportunity in the novice dressage rider realm.

~ Come one come all, step right up and join the Parelli Circus! :lol:

(If it IS true, sort of sad another respected trainer has caved in to the $$$ game)

Hm. I don't think he caved into $$$ game, any more than he already sells his own DVDs of his own training methods. Clair, I read WAZ's website and responses about the interaction they had, and you know, it really seemed to me that he was being a gentleman, and being respctful of the meeting, and perhaps being pushed to endorse them, he wrote the kind article, because his personal interaction with them was positive, and I am sure they were on their best behaviour, and seemed to be trying to learn from him, so, he seems like the kind of kind person who as long as they behave, they can hang around kind of thing, but we all know that they will abuse the relationship, and I am willing to bet that when they do, WAZ will simply, if I read his personality aright, quietly go his own way and/or disassociate with them. Otherwise, it seems, yes, wasn't it nice to meet people from different backgrounds.

That's sort of what I got out of his response.

Time will tell. I doubt WAZ is now a rabid fan of PP.

Freebird!
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:57 PM
In the clinics that I've done with WAZ I haven't encountered any PP methods being used, I've encountered common sense horse training and brillance from a master.:D


You mean that you don't ride with twisty ties attached to the reins??

LexInVA
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:59 PM
And whatever happened to the O'Conner/Parelli partnership?


It was more like a one-night stand. Both parties got what they wanted at the time (publicity) and went their own way afterwards. As I've said before, they use his methods in their training camps though I couldn't tell you what they think of him and chances are you'd probably not get an answer out of them were you to bring it up casually.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 11, 2007, 03:04 PM
My own horse had some Parelli training on it and it was anything but light. They desensatize and if you do AQHA and trail thats fine by me but unfortunately my dressage horse had to be reminded what forward was and how to use the whole arena instead of tiny cirles in one corner and yes he had a noodle neck and hit hind quarters we swervy . My AQ horse is great and all of the slow work is fine for her but otherwise you lose momentum and go if you do it on a sport horse. My two cents!

claire
Oct. 11, 2007, 03:12 PM
Another Round, Thanks. I guess, lately, I am just getting sort of :no: about BNT's.

I really lost some respect for the O'Conners when they partnered with the Parellis. And recently, lost respect for Coby van Baalen misrepresenting her training methods and then lying in a public statement :(

Selling DVD's and tack, clothing...mmmm, I know they have to make $$$.
But the Parelli's take things to a new (LOW) level!

Glad to know that Mr. Zettl is just handling things in his classy way!

HopeHill
Oct. 11, 2007, 03:42 PM
You mean that you don't ride with twisty ties attached to the reins??


Nope ... and have you seen the "new parelli bridle" it's quite interesting, with a ported Myler mouth piece and boucher cheekpieces, etc. ... they created it for the higher level work. I thought I would show it to WAZ next week and see what he thinks of it........

dalpal
Oct. 11, 2007, 04:04 PM
Are you sure that this was a CURRENT program and not a rerun? Programs are shown over and over again. Check the date at the end; this may be a one or two year old episode.

It was filmed last February, Ms. Linda mentioned that as she pointed out her family in the background and then said...OH and look my dad is right here too. :lol:

PiaffeDreams
Oct. 11, 2007, 04:10 PM
Actually, that "bit" or new bridle they are marketing is for your horses FIRST bit through to 'upper level' Parelli work. Its a Myler type of kimberwicke with a curb strap and a hackamore effect on the nose. THere is so much pressure on that thing its ridiculous. If you can't get your horse on the bit in a snaffle, you need basic riding lessons, not Parelli. If your horse is that green, he needs a classical trainer, not Parelli.

HopeHill
Oct. 11, 2007, 04:39 PM
Actually, that "bit" or new bridle they are marketing is for your horses FIRST bit through to 'upper level' Parelli work. Its a Myler type of kimberwicke with a curb strap and a hackamore effect on the nose. THere is so much pressure on that thing its ridiculous. If you can't get your horse on the bit in a snaffle, you need basic riding lessons, not Parelli. If your horse is that green, he needs a classical trainer, not Parelli.
I agree that it's ridiculous, so unnatural and not classical... quite the turn around that they've had... to go from no bridle and halters only, to their new contraption...

LMH
Oct. 11, 2007, 04:42 PM
To those asking me questions, I have no answers:no:

I post on another forum that is Parelli friendly (not cult oriented) and also dressage oriented. Someone that watched the show and posted this.

I didn't actually watch RFD last night, was enjoying a cold beer on my deck instead.:yes:

Anyway, this comment floored me...and I like Parelli :sadsmile:

For those that do have lessons with WAZ, would you feel comfy enough to ASK about this comment?

Surely there is some explanation.

Ah well....

dalpal
Oct. 11, 2007, 04:55 PM
I think the explanation is simpy that Pat was getting a bit carried away with himself, as usual.....he starts talking about himself and just can't stop. He'll be working with a horse, but at the same time yapping about how he met Linda or how long he's been in business, or How Walter Zettl only likes the two of them. :lol:

There's been many a time my husband has found me in front of the TV flat out asleep during Patti's show. :lol: He reminds me of one of my college professors...we would be in a 3 hour evening class and he would go around and around till he FINALLY got to his point...there were times I wanted to beat my head against the desk. :lol:

But like I said, I watch it for pure entertainment...what idiot comment will Patti say tonight. :lol:

I like to watch Chris Cox and Tommy Garland....they are fun to watch, even if it has nothing to do with dressage. And Chris Cox gets two thumbs up from me on looks alone. :lol: now he IS a cowboy and a fine lookin one at that!!!

Fantastic
Oct. 11, 2007, 05:07 PM
Multi level Parelli marketing, anyone? Aren't their followers similar to the cultish Amway people of yester year? Instead of selling vitamins and carpet cleaner, the Parelli's are selling B.S., a cheesy brand of so called horsemanship, and cultish clinics.

Hard to believe that WAZ and the O'Connors would associate themselves with such low lifes at the Parelllis, especially when such low lifes put dressage down, and then (the P's) try to connect themselves with a classical dressage trainer (Waz). It's amazing what people (WAZ and O'Connors) will affiliate themselves with just to get a piece of the Amway pie!

dwblover
Oct. 11, 2007, 05:42 PM
Wow, the Parellis spend a great deal of their time talking crap about dressage, and then publicly affiliate themselves with a BNT? Hypocritical much? I'm just floored by the statement Pat made. I think he is getting a little too big for his breeches. (I guess he'll be wearing breeches now that WAZ is his personal mentor?):eek:

Bluey
Oct. 11, 2007, 05:47 PM
Not defending W. and the Connors, but they may not have known where PP was coming from.
I have found that many people in the traditional horse venues are too busy in them to have but heard a little about PP and NH, really don't have but a vague idea of what is going on.
They don't have "the big picture". I bet they may now.

I have the tape where W. did a clinic with the two PP and a reining trainer.
You can see him trying to work a little with them and then just giving up.
I get the impression he was just letting them go around and around, without saying much, an obvious lost cause to try to fit a square peg in a round hole.:no:

Kyzteke
Oct. 11, 2007, 07:31 PM
I have the tape where W. did a clinic with the two PP and a reining trainer.
You can see him trying to work a little with them and then just giving up.


Where did you get the tape?

Equibrit
Oct. 11, 2007, 07:52 PM
What do you expect? Pat Parelli is not capable of concurrent speech AND thought.

europferde
Oct. 11, 2007, 07:55 PM
I'd give my right arm to see that fat ass self-rightious cowboy trying to ride that so called run away horse. My goodness, he's probably never sat on anything so powerful!!! When you take everything away from horses you get --- nothing! No real brilliance and certainly not the ability to perform at international levels. They just go thru the motions but never achieve anything. By the way - has he ever done anything except ride a horse in a round pen???

Bluey
Oct. 11, 2007, 08:00 PM
Where did you get the tape?


Was sold in the WZ site, along with the series "A matter of trust".

May have been that one called now "extras", if it still has the PP part, has not been edited out:

http://www.walterzettl.net/pages/booksatapes.html

Gave it to a PP devotee.

carolprudm
Oct. 12, 2007, 08:51 AM
I'd give my right arm to see that fat ass self-rightious cowboy trying to ride that so called run away horse. My goodness, he's probably never sat on anything so powerful!!! When you take everything away from horses you get --- nothing! No real brilliance and certainly not the ability to perform at international levels. They just go thru the motions but never achieve anything. By the way - has he ever done anything except ride a horse in a round pen???

LOL, I really enjoy seeing CA try to ride the bigger horses that he works with on a few of his shows. If nothing else you have to give him credit for trying

jeano
Oct. 12, 2007, 10:27 AM
Re what has he done besides go around in a round pen, back in the day PP supposedly was such a wonderful mule trainer that they had to ban mules from reining competitions since his mules would beat all the horses, and he would do his bareback and bridleless stunts in competition. I suppose we could look up all of his and Linda's wonderful competition records if they actually ever did compete anywhere. My snarky comment on all this, and then I will shut up, (for Lo, I am a Known Parelli Basher and Non Competitor in any Discipline and therefore Have No Business Posting On Any COTH Forum, Let Alone Owning a Horse ) is this: Dressahhhge people often actually ride, and Parelliistas and Dress Sage people often do not, and ne'er the twain shall meet.....

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 12, 2007, 10:49 AM
I'd give my right arm to see that fat ass self-rightious cowboy trying to ride that so called run away horse. My goodness, he's probably never sat on anything so powerful!!! When you take everything away from horses you get --- nothing! No real brilliance and certainly not the ability to perform at international levels. They just go thru the motions but never achieve anything. By the way - has he ever done anything except ride a horse in a round pen???

AMEN. In my experience, NH horses eventually l get that "thousand yard stare." Like "are we done yet?" :no:

Sandy M
Oct. 12, 2007, 11:00 AM
Re what has he done besides go around in a round pen, back in the day PP supposedly was such a wonderful mule trainer that they had to ban mules from reining competitions since his mules would beat all the horses, and he would do his bareback and bridleless stunts in competition. I suppose we could look up all of his and Linda's wonderful competition records if they actually ever did compete anywhere. My snarky comment on all this, and then I will shut up, (for Lo, I am a Known Parelli Basher and Non Competitor in any Discipline and therefore Have No Business Posting On Any COTH Forum, Let Alone Owning a Horse ) is this: Dressahhhge people often actually ride, and Parelliistas and Dress Sage people often do not, and ne'er the twain shall meet.....


Since mules were only recently allowed in recognized dressage competition, and I assume that was under AHSA (now USEF) rules, and were also barred from eventing (USCTA, now USEA rules).... I would find it surprising that they were allowed in recognized reining competitions. Don't really know, but it seems strange to me that mules would have been barred from one type of AHSA competition because they were "not horses" but allowed in another - or is reining EXCLUSIVELY under the aegis of the body that governs reining and not associated with AHSA(USEF)??

Shanlouare
Oct. 12, 2007, 11:25 AM
That is what I keep saying to myself when I open up my brain and try to watch one of their Parelli shows... Pat rode a beautiful horse bareback for the first time (big woop!) then at the end leads it up towards the horse trailer almost decapitating himself all the while... I won't claim to be a Big Name or declare I know all, but what the hell, is THIS the epitome of horsemanship??? What's next, leading a horse while the lead rope is around his neck??

I think it's total PR BS!

Fallbrook
Oct. 12, 2007, 11:27 AM
Since mules were only recently allowed in recognized dressage competition, and I assume that was under AHSA (now USEF) rules, and were also barred from eventing (USCTA, now USEA rules).... I would find it surprising that they were allowed in recognized reining competitions. Don't really know, but it seems strange to me that mules would have been barred from one type of AHSA competition because they were "not horses" but allowed in another - or is reining EXCLUSIVELY under the aegis of the body that governs reining and not associated with AHSA(USEF)??

I don't give a rat's @$$ about Parelli - but I had to look this one up. From the Parelli site -

"The mules taught Pat the importance of reverse psychology, the principle of safety and comfort as the only real incentives, and developed in him more savvy on how to get a prey animal to "want" to perform. They also taught him about patience! In 1980, Pat founded The American Mule Association.

Being an intense student of horses and horsemanship, Pat had begun to develop his own style of teaching and expanding these principles. He also became interested in showing reined cow horses and was successful in reining and cutting events with both horses and mules.

He nearly won the 1983 Snaffle Bit futurity on a mule (Cissy) and this resulted not only in a training career boost but a rule change banning mules from the competition! Pat was invited back the next year to give a demonstration with a mule doing the same reining pattern but this time without a bridle!"

dqwannabe
Oct. 12, 2007, 11:34 AM
Humm.. has anyone emailed WZ and ASKED if this is true? He is just a man and can be contacted.... also, voice can be used to say how disappointed people are w/ PP.. they have an email and web page. Flood it! :lol:
Rude comments by him, lame horses seen on his show.... he is NOT God and can be taken down a couple pegs. He needs it.

Karma will come back to bite him in the a**.. someday... I hope.

Sonesta
Oct. 12, 2007, 12:30 PM
I have sent a message to WAZ and will let you know his reply.

bambam
Oct. 12, 2007, 12:50 PM
I bet the folks at my old barn were really peeved last week when they showed up for the WAZ clinic and he refused to teach them :rolleyes:


It would be interesting to see what would happen if you snuck up behind one of the O'Connors and said "Parelli" in a loud voice...
bwahahahaha

AnotherRound
Oct. 12, 2007, 12:55 PM
I have sent a message to WAZ and will let you know his reply.


I'm glad, it will be interesting, Sonesta.

findeight
Oct. 12, 2007, 01:18 PM
I don't give a rat's @$$ about Parelli - but I had to look this one up. From the Parelli site -

He nearly won the 1983 Snaffle Bit futurity on a mule (Cissy) and this resulted not only in a training career boost but a rule change banning mules from the competition! Pat was invited back the next year to give a demonstration with a mule doing the same reining pattern but this time without a bridle!"


Somebody want to check that out? Doesn't sound exactly right, if he "nearly won" that would mean he was in the money? Right? Ought to be listed in the results for that year. Don't seem to recall any mules in the money in either qualifying rounds or the Finals but might be wrong-a very long time ago.

Somehow I can't believe mules were excluded out of fear of how good they were:rolleyes:, more likely to conform with other organization and breed rules as SBF got bigger.

Don't have time, off to buy the PP bit for all stages of life that's a cross between a comfort snaffle and a kimberwicke-my favorite;)...riiiiiight.:rolleyes:

des
Oct. 12, 2007, 01:46 PM
The whole Natural Horsemanship timeline and explanation of what it is and why it began from a friend on another board.


Natural Horsemanship is nothin new. Think of the Indians. They rode their horses around bareback with little on the horse's head. They were in touch with their horse and probably had great timing and feel.

During the "cowboy" era of the 1800s horses were used as a mode of transportation as well as work. Horses were broke fast in order to get the job done. That meant let em buck and either ride it out or smack them during each jump to kind of beat the buck out. They didn't spend alot of time working a horse on the ground and playing with their horses. They saddled and rode. Getting a horse broke fast was the name of the game.

Tom Dorrance started the new era of Natural Horsemanship. Being a cowboy himself he began to vocalize that there is a better way to train a horse. This involves timing and feel. You have to be in-tuned to your horse to read his questions and answers correctly. The better you timing is, the quicker your horse will progress.

Several guys worked with or rode with Tom, including his brother Bill Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Bryan Neubert, etc. They have all branched out on their own and also have begun to educate people about timing and feel. You can still get your horse broke but in a way that is better for both parties. It involves reading the horse and establishing a relationship with the horse.

Next came the wave of Clinician Gurus. They have recognized that the average person does NOT have great timing and/or feel. They can't read a horse well because they have only had exposure to one or two horses or just don't know how to. So they have developed carrot sticks, special halters and lead ropes, you name it. They have given the mass majority tricks to use and tasks to try and accomplish. This isn't a negative thing. There are alot of folks that really like the structure that this gives them.

Most folks get highly frustrated when told that their timing is off and that they need to work on their feel. They just don't understand it. They want an A,B,C list of HOW to do it.

While we all know of Ray Hunt, the Dorrance Brothers, Bryan Neubert, we don't see there names that much. Ray and Brian are doing clinics every year but you don't see their names in flashing signs with neon bulbs.

Names like parelli and CA are much more recognizable. Why? They are marketing a more basic approach with step by step lessons to help horseman try and understand feel and timing. While most will never get it. They feel they have accomplished something because their horse went through Cone A and around Ball B with an orange carrot stick, just like the DVD or book told them too. They see success and that's all that counts.

For me, I wish I could have ridden with Tom. I have ridden in clinics put on by Ray and Bryan and they are fantastic. I have learned so much from them. I would like to ride with them again someday. I know my timing and feel are good but can always be improved. Every day it improves and it's something you always have to work on. It's not a black and white area, there is alot of gray. That's why most people steer away.


Ok so on to Pat. Way back when I was in college before the games n stuff Pat taught clinics. We had yearly clinics at Cal Poly. I remember him giving very clear directions on the use of a snaffle bit on a stock horse. Made a lot of sense. I also remember getting reamed because I liked riding in an exercise saddle. I got to hear all the negatives of the track. I smiled and still went on to ride racehorses for years. Another year I rode the nicest little qh filly. I sat up looked where I was going and she went there. He pointed right at me and told everyone "That's the way you should be looking" So yeah Pat Parelli is a sanctimonious arrogant guy. I've heard of the "games" thing and I don't really have any use for that stuff. I don't need to lead a horse by it's tail.

CA.. I got his book and got bored. I already understand what I needed to understand about time and feeling. My QH filly is CA trained as a yearling. The one thing I like about her is she is darn near spook proof. I started her undersaddle myself and she's done well. I expect her to make a really nice reining horse. I haven't invested any time in working through CA's processes to make a reining horse. I bought a video series made by Andreas Fappani for that purpose. He is after all a top winning reining trainer right now. Makes sense to find out what he's got to say about this discipline.

I attended a Ray Hunt clinic while in college. Most of my riding instructors were Hunt followers. One of my classmates back then worked for Tom Dorrance. The comments made by my friend about "feel and timing" are true. That's what it's about. I think if I had another opportunity to go to a Ray Hunt clinic now I'd probably get more out of what he was saying in the first place now that I've ridden for years and ridden many many horses.

I came into Dressage because I like the percision it provides. Does it require "feel and timing" to perfect your Dressage horse... I'd say yes it does. I also think Dressage has helped me think about my horse's body position a lot. Something Ray Hunt said "Prepare to position" comes to mind.

Many of you are upset about WAZ beining involved with the Parellis. I'd like to think it was an opportunity for them to get a little perspective on their training methods. The arrogance that has surrounded a lot of these clinicians has been somewhat disconcerting for me. I hate backstabbing of any sort around horses because it diminishes the pleasure others feel with their horses.

Some quotes from Ray Hunt:
“You’re not working on your horse, you’re working on yourself.”
“Believe in your horse, trust him!”
“Prepare to position for transition.”
“Always direct and then support.”
“Think, have a plan.”
“Ride the horse not your saddle, keep him between your legs and hands.”
“How little can you do?”
“Give your horse a job to do.”
“Only perfect practice makes perfect.”
“You’re alright, you’re doing ok.”

I honestly think a lot of the BNT Natural Horsemen have moved away from the philosophy. They aren't riding with a clear cut riding goal in mind.. like Dressage, Reining, Cutting, Jumping etc. They're riding for the marketing.

findeight
Oct. 12, 2007, 02:02 PM
Ok so on to Pat. Way back when I was in college before the games n stuff Pat taught clinics. We had yearly clinics at Cal Poly. I remember him giving very clear directions on the use of a snaffle bit on a stock horse. Made a lot of sense.

hey, I graduated from Cal Poly Pomona...well before the PP thing I would guess.

We ALL used snaffles on the stock horses (now called Reining) and started most of the other colts in them to. Did most of the routine flatwork on finished ones in it as well. That would be late 60's, early 70s...and it was an old and traditional method then.
Nothing new there.

Fallbrook
Oct. 12, 2007, 02:06 PM
Somebody want to check that out? Doesn't sound exactly right, if he "nearly won" that would mean he was in the money? Right? Ought to be listed in the results for that year. Don't seem to recall any mules in the money in either qualifying rounds or the Finals but might be wrong-a very long time ago.

Googled some keywords and found this from "wreck eq" (http://www.gatago.org/rec/equestrian/41190525.html)

and the thread that includes a Parellite reply (http://www.gatago.org/rec/equestrian/43780884.html)

Not facts, but it does show that others have gone down this path before....

Cheryl

des
Oct. 12, 2007, 03:24 PM
hey, I graduated from Cal Poly Pomona...well before the PP thing I would guess.

We ALL used snaffles on the stock horses (now called Reining) and started most of the other colts in them to. Did most of the routine flatwork on finished ones in it as well. That would be late 60's, early 70s...and it was an old and traditional method then.
Nothing new there.


I was at Cal Poly SLO. I was there in the late 80s. Everything we did was in a snaffle bit. I find it tough to work without a snaffle. Racetrack uses snaffles too.

dalpal
Oct. 12, 2007, 04:00 PM
Yeah, but come on guys you have to admit that Patti IS the king when it comes to nifty little tongue twister phrases. :lol:

des
Oct. 12, 2007, 05:34 PM
Yeah, but come on guys you have to admit that Patti IS the king when it comes to nifty little tongue twister phrases. :lol:

Pat is known for having the "Gift of Gab". Monty told me that one.
Monty was a nice enough guy. Knew racehorses really well but I think he got caught up in the whole Clinician thing and has gone overboard.

STF
Oct. 12, 2007, 05:55 PM
I tried hard not to read this thread. I knew it would just make me ill. Which is did.
There is a part of me that feels like the dumbass just said that to get people "yappin" on the BB's. His humor game, or what have you. *rolling eyes*
IF that is the truth and WAZ is only training them (mind you, he was in San Antonio 3 weeks ago..... *sigh*), then maybe its for the better as they could learn something and something CORRECT about the sport. The Dressage God, Himself, knows they have misrepresented the sport and its theories for years now.
More than likely its a business scheme for all of those "unknowers" to hear and think....... "WOW, the Parelli's can train dressage horses now!" Think about it people, it was a marketing ploy. He musta got his handlebar mustache stuck in his butt again and got a "flaming" idea! :)
Well, you and I........ and anyone with sense knows that to be able to train at a certain level, you have to have ridden and had experience at that level. So, for those who fall for the Parelli Dressage theory, they can go.......... waste their time and moeny. After a while of scoring at the bottom of the pit with embarrassing scores (as Linda did when she could not even get through a training level test hardly).......... then they will look around them and either open their eyes or......... be more sucked into the cult. Either or - it was a market ploy.

STF
Oct. 12, 2007, 05:57 PM
Can someone give me one big trainer who shows competetively and wins..... at ANY sport that is a PP fanatic???

Sandy M
Oct. 12, 2007, 06:46 PM
Perhaps, as someone mused on the UDBB, WAZ merely said to himself, as he drove home after surviving working with the Ps, "

What if you look at it THIS way?

WAZ is driving home after a long and trying day at the PP HQ.

He sighs at the situation he has found himself in. Finally, he says out loud to himself...

"I will only TEACH Linda and Pat. I will not attempt to get into any kind of a rational discussion with them, as it would be hopeless. I will just do my work and TEACH them how to ride. I will TEACH them what I know. They are good people, but a bit full of themselves. Perhaps, in this situation...doing is better than talking, anyway.....sigh....."

"I'd better not EVER forget this, for the REST OF MY LIFE...otherwise I will be doomed to frustration."

Something like that?

After all, what was the context of the actual statement? You know?


P.S. For those who say "pot calling kettle" and "why do you bash Parelli," just answer this for me: Have you EVER attended a clinic by a BN dressage trainer, where one of the first things out of their mouth is to gratiutously bash the Parellis? I doubt it. They probably are NEVER mentioned. But Parellis go out of their way to bash dressage.

EasyStreet
Oct. 12, 2007, 07:55 PM
By a fluke I happened to see the last ten minutes or so of PP on RFD last night as I sorted through 1099's and muttered curses at the IRS.

Heard the words emanate from PP's mouth best I can tell word for word as transcribed here.

Was so astonished that I stopped sorting the bloody tax documents, went to the WAZ website and saw the very same clinic schedule posted here. Scratched my head.

PP seemed very full of himself last night as he walked around the ring being followed by the horse.

Who knows what to make of it. There are some PP-related things posted on the WAZ website, so whether there's the identified fire or not, there's definitely smoke.

For my part, the prospect of PP in breeches would be shock enough.
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

des
Oct. 12, 2007, 07:55 PM
Ya know.. in the long run we can only speculate what's really going on between the parties involved.

Besides, does it really matter? I don't think either party is going to significantly change the other. The Parellis will stay the same and WAZ will always be WAZ.

findeight
Oct. 12, 2007, 08:05 PM
Googled some keywords and found this from "wreck eq" (http://www.gatago.org/rec/equestrian/41190525.html)

and the thread that includes a Parellite reply (http://www.gatago.org/rec/equestrian/43780884.html)

Not facts, but it does show that others have gone down this path before....

Cheryl

Thanks for the link.

I was afraid I misremembered. Apparently I am not the only one with some doubt.

Seems PP is the one who misremebered, hey, 1981? 1983? 3 QHs? or 2 Mules? "Nearly won" but didn't even place? What's the difference? Not important to them I guess.

petitefilly
Oct. 12, 2007, 09:49 PM
Can someone give me one big trainer who shows competetively and wins..... at ANY sport that is a PP fanatic???

Please! That is like looking for a needle in a haystack the size of New York City. There ain't nobody doing no PP work who has done diddlysquat. I'll eat my hat if there are riders who ascribe to his *wisdom* in any discipline. Riders who know their stuff do not need him, and riders who want to learn tricks, games, and idle time killers are his legion. YMMV, this is my experience.

Adamantane
Oct. 12, 2007, 10:42 PM
Can someone give me one big trainer who shows competetively and wins..... at ANY sport that is a PP fanatic???


Please! That is like looking for a needle in a haystack the size of New York City. There ain't nobody doing no PP work who has done diddlysquat. I'll eat my hat if there are riders who ascribe to his *wisdom* in any discipline. Riders who know their stuff do not need him, and riders who want to learn tricks, games, and idle time killers are his legion. YMMV, this is my experience.

Sheesh, let's not run off the cliff here.

Based on what I can tell what PP and other NH gurus offer is aimed at a far different segment of the riding community than that which rides at very high levels in any riding discipline.

Even ignoring the loaded 'fanatic' word, the number of BNT's or high level competitors who are adherents or non-adherents of PP's or anyone else's NH simply are not relevant to the question of PP's merits or demerits.

BNT's work in a context and are involved in a competitive environment so far removed from that of the group to which PP et al., makes its appeal, as to almost inhabit different universes. Why would they much care? In general for their day to day concerns in their individual disciplines they have little to gain by devoting attention to it.

And students of PP et al., don't obtain from it specific skills directly relevant to being competitive in any particular discipline.

What's more the NH people don't claim that they do. About as close as they get is to argue (in this case at least, reasonably) that horses happily bonded to and trusting of their riders generally do a better job at whatever are their riding tasks. So who can argue against that? It's like Mom and apple pie. But it doesn't make anybody more competitive in and of itself.

Might as well argue the adherence of American Nobel Laureates to competing phonics and 'look-say' methods for teaching reading. To my knowledge no Nobel Laureate ever found it worthwhile to debate pedagogical approaches to beginning reading nor, whatever their personal background, has the method whereby each Nobelist learned to read been material to the achievement and success decades later after they have mastered and practiced their field of expertise.

One reason this thread has caught on, and why PP's comments about WAZ jarred me when I chanced to hear them in that broadcast is that when two such vastly different worlds momentarily appear to intersect, everyone does a double take and wonders just what the heck is going on.

Bluey
Oct. 12, 2007, 10:50 PM
I would say that if this PP thing doesn't sizzle dry one of those days, if it keeps growing, they will have their own shows, where they show off how they train and do things their way.

Classes of getting a horse over a course without the rider touching it, the horse without any tack, classes bareback over and thru obstacles, etc., all with their own rules and judging.

Just watch and see if that doesn't happen in the next few years. NH as a discipline in itself.;)

Rusty Stirrup
Oct. 13, 2007, 08:38 AM
They do have their own shows:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTG7xZdxaSw

STF
Oct. 13, 2007, 10:18 AM
Perhaps, as someone mused on the UDBB, WAZ merely said to himself, as he drove home after surviving working with the Ps, "

What if you look at it THIS way?

WAZ is driving home after a long and trying day at the PP HQ.

He sighs at the situation he has found himself in. Finally, he says out loud to himself...

"I will only TEACH Linda and Pat. I will not attempt to get into any kind of a rational discussion with them, as it would be hopeless. I will just do my work and TEACH them how to ride. I will TEACH them what I know. They are good people, but a bit full of themselves. Perhaps, in this situation...doing is better than talking, anyway.....sigh....."

"I'd better not EVER forget this, for the REST OF MY LIFE...otherwise I will be doomed to frustration."

Something like that?

After all, what was the context of the actual statement? You know?


P.S. For those who say "pot calling kettle" and "why do you bash Parelli," just answer this for me: Have you EVER attended a clinic by a BN dressage trainer, where one of the first things out of their mouth is to gratiutously bash the Parellis? I doubt it. They probably are NEVER mentioned. But Parellis go out of their way to bash dressage.

You may be very correct here! It may be them twisting words. Would not shock me! :lol:

STF
Oct. 13, 2007, 10:28 AM
As someone else said - WAZ is a very classy man. He would never dis someone or anyone, mostly on public TV. The standards of life between the two vary greatly. PP and LP dont even come close to that much having respect for others or what they do as we have heard many times. Many of us in person and on national TV.
For the best example is PP slaming Anky and her horse issue at the awards. Not mentioned was that Anky was 5 months pregnant. From experience, the pregnancy makes you very weak as well as nature kicks in to protect.
Again, it was another class(less) blow from the Parelli group. Maybe its the only way they can win people over, I dont know. Either way, they dont even compare to the class of WAZ. Maybe if it all, WAZ can teach them some social class manners.

MassageLady
Oct. 13, 2007, 10:50 AM
I learned a long time ago in Psych 1, that those who continuously put others down to build themselves up-have a huge self esteem problem. I've always said that about the parellis' and will continue to feel that way about them. They would be much better off if they just said what THEY do and why they do it. :yes:
It's ashame WAZ got caught up in their web.

dutchmike
Oct. 13, 2007, 02:23 PM
I learned a long time ago in Psych 1, that those who continuously put others down to build themselves up-have a huge self esteem problem. I've always said that about the parellis' and will continue to feel that way about them. They would be much better off if they just said what THEY do and why they do it. :yes:
It's ashame WAZ got caught up in their web.

I totally agree with you on this one

LMH
Oct. 14, 2007, 06:59 AM
Well...evidently at a recent tour stop someone asked Pat about the WAZ relationship...WAZ will be teaching the Parelli's privately 6 times a year.

Again...this is he told, she told, etc...and someone else said something about this arrangement was post on WAZ's site.

The RFD show was taped back in march so perhaps there was some other discussion back then.

Bluey
Oct. 14, 2007, 08:57 AM
Well...evidently at a recent tour stop someone asked Pat about the WAZ relationship...WAZ will be teaching the Parelli's privately 6 times a year.

Again...this is he told, she told, etc...and someone else said something about this arrangement was post on WAZ's site.

The RFD show was taped back in march so perhaps there was some other discussion back then.

I have an idea that maybe the PP don't really want to learn dressage, but learn enough to use that with what they believe is a better way of riding, adapt the old dressage teachings to their way of thinking.
Wich is fine, for them, but maybe not exactly dressage as we know it.

I will still always think that they don't know how little they know about some aspects of riding or handling horses.

To truly learn about horses, people need to be humble enough to realize that they don't know that much and that may be why the PPs can't really learn that much.
All they hear when listening to anyone trying to teach them is "how does that apply to what we want the world to think is our, better way".

Hard to really teach someone that has half it's mind on other than what we are teaching.
Good luck to WZ with that.
In that video, it looked like he was doubting that he was doing much for them, quit trying after a little.
Maybe in other parts of the clinic, not in the video, he did get thru with some of what they need to hear.

I don't understand why someone would want to teach something to people that up front dismiss that off hand, as the PP have done about dressage for many years now.:confused:

pintopiaffe
Oct. 14, 2007, 09:15 AM
In that video, it looked like he was doubting that he was doing much for them, quit trying after a little.
Maybe in other parts of the clinic, not in the video, he did get thru with some of what they need to hear.

Back when I rode with Walter, (not enough! and too long ago!) I remember that he would only tell you something 2 or 3 times. If you weren't doing what he said... well, then you either couldn't or wouldn't change it yet. He might approach it from a different way--another excercise for the horse which might correct the rider--but he wasn't going to tell you 'thumbs up' fifty times.

Not to say if you forgot and regressed when trying something else new, he wouldn't remind you, but he just didn't reiterate over and over.

As to the rest... :sigh: I don't know what to say/think. Walter truly changed the course of my riding and most likely my life because I found out there was another way. Many choices were made and paths taken in the following years based on that knowledge.

STF
Oct. 14, 2007, 10:04 AM
Well...evidently at a recent tour stop someone asked Pat about the WAZ relationship...WAZ will be teaching the Parelli's privately 6 times a year.

Again...this is he told, she told, etc...and someone else said something about this arrangement was post on WAZ's site.

The RFD show was taped back in march so perhaps there was some other discussion back then.


WOW!
I wish I could learn complete dressage and theory in just 6 times a year! ROTFLMAO:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Oh my....................:rolleyes::sleepy:

Adamantane
Oct. 14, 2007, 10:25 AM
I don't understand why someone would want to teach something to people that up front dismiss that off hand, as the PP have done about dressage for many years now.:confused:

My impression is that the greatest friction between the PP folks and the rest of the riding world comes from the dressage community. Who launched the first spitball here is probably lost in history. Bashing something doesn't endear anybody to the adherents of whatever is being bashed, irrespective of whether the criticisms have no, little, much or total basis in fact. For both from the perspective of the other, the 'opposition' presents such a juicy target, or seems to.

And the demographics in a very rough and superficial way seem to correspond not only to the unfortunate and inappropriate tendency for Western riders and English riders to devalue each other's traditions, but also, again roughly and misguidedly, to some kind of social class perception thing. (Just because something is stupid and shortsighted doesn't mean that it can't also exist. Consider anti-Semitism and racism for starters.)

Is it possible that under all the rhetoric and nasty digs about dressage that play well with the PP constituency, PP and LP actually do want to try to rebuild long-burnt bridges? LP seems interested in dressage even though so far she hasn't exactly covered herself in glory there, and they both would like more credibility among their detractors, even if it is merely a matter of expanding the target market. The us vs. them business may have served the Parellis well getting started, but it is more of an impediment now than an asset.

Mr. Zettl, rather like anti-communist Nixon when he went to Red China, is so well established as an icon in the dressage world that no one can question his bonafides or ascribe some subversive motivation to his actions. So perhaps he is taking the long view and the high road in reaching out.

After all the clashing 'systems' assert that at their heart they are focused primarily on the nature of the horse, not in making horses operate in ways indifferent to or inimical to that nature, and Zettl has spoken out about his concerns within his own discipline that he feels, anyway, may have lost sight of that. So upon reflection there may be a kernel of commonality in this implausible pairing.

It should be interesting to watch this unfold.

Spyder
Oct. 14, 2007, 10:58 AM
Well said, Adamantane.

NoDQhere
Oct. 14, 2007, 11:05 AM
I think it is clear, in listening to the Pepperonis, that their goal is not to learn, but rather to obtain an "endorsement" from someone with credibility. If they truely wanted to learn, they would not be so disrespectful towards "dressage".

Those of us who actually "do" dressage, understand the commitment it takes and how quickly "dressage" will humble you! We tend to keep our mouths shut when someone has a wreck in an awards cermony, because next time it could be YOU :lol: Because those of us who actually "do" dressage are riding a talented powerhouse not some intimidated, bored to death automon.

Even WAZ can not hope to teach someone who knows it all.:sigh:

Adamantane
Oct. 14, 2007, 12:00 PM
Those of us who actually "do" dressage, understand the commitment it takes and how quickly "dressage" will humble you!

And a bit of said humbling might not be a beneficial experience for the Parellis?;)

MassageLady
Oct. 14, 2007, 01:39 PM
I think it is clear, in listening to the Pepperonis, that their goal is not to learn, but rather to obtain an "endorsement" from someone with credibility. If they truely wanted to learn, they would not be so disrespectful towards "dressage".

Those of us who actually "do" dressage, understand the commitment it takes and how quickly "dressage" will humble you! We tend to keep our mouths shut when someone has a wreck in an awards cermony, because next time it could be YOU Because those of us who actually "do" dressage are riding a talented powerhouse not some intimidated, bored to death automon.

Even WAZ can not hope to teach someone who knows it all.
AMEN! I couldn't have said it better myself!
What I don't understand is this...why can't the masses who follow them see this? Geez, enough of the kool aid kids!:lol:

jvanrens
Oct. 14, 2007, 07:43 PM
My impression is that the greatest friction between the PP folks and the rest of the riding world comes from the dressage community.

Actually, if you look around, the PP folks aren't too highly thought of by western riders either. :lol: I usually hang out at a Pleasure Horse forum (primarily WP & HUS riders in the "stock" horse breeds) and they have no more use for PP than most dressage riders. ;)

Touchstone Farm
Oct. 14, 2007, 08:33 PM
And a bit of said humbling might not be a beneficial experience for the Parellis?;)

Do the P's know what "humble" is? :-)

STF
Oct. 14, 2007, 09:26 PM
I think it is clear, in listening to the Pepperonis, that their goal is not to learn, but rather to obtain an "endorsement" from someone with credibility. If they truely wanted to learn, they would not be so disrespectful towards "dressage".

Yup! It was a marketing ploy! Nothing more.

MassageLady
Oct. 14, 2007, 11:04 PM
I agree...as well as the O'connors, Karen Rohlf, Craig Johnson, etc. etc.:yes:
I'd just like to know how much they have all been paid.:lol:

WAZ
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:20 PM
Let me weigh in on this topic. Pat and Linda are students of mine. They are some of the most capable and committed horsemen I have worked with.
The Parelli’s, out of concern for my health and the effect of excessive travel on it, made me an offer to primarily work with them. As generous as their offer was, my devotion to the horse and the riders who love them, and my goal to educate as many as possible, would not allow me to accept it.
It saddens me to read some of the negative comments made by posters without them knowing all the facts.
The Parelli’s have contacted me with a sincere apology for the misunderstanding. I continue to teach in clinics around the country including very productive lessons at the Parelli’s.

flyracing
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:30 PM
I got some oceanfront property in Arizona......

In Sodona?? I'll give you 5 mill:winkgrin:

Kyzteke
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:38 PM
I did email the American PP office with a link to this thread, although I have NO idea if this is what prompted a reaction.

But I think people are too hard on the Parelli's. Yes, Pat has a HUGE ego -- and that makes him his own worst enemy. But I don't care what anyone says, he can do alot with a horse. I remember watching him ride a horse with no saddle, bridle, neck rope or stick at a full canter around a huge field, then canter up to the back of a moving horse trailer and canter the horse right into the trailer! Now, I'll lay you $100 down not one of the people who posted on this thread can do that.

Now, before some smart ass says, "Why would someone want to do that?", well, ALL of these things are just a way to strengthen the bond between horse & rider. Why would someone want to ride their horse in some silly pattern (dressage & reining) or leap over really tall objects or pull a cart around cones? I mean, none of those activities have anything to do with if the sun rises tomorrow.

There is alot to learn in the NH method (not just PP's version), and at least I've never seen them do anything as horrid as what Coby did to that poor pony (let's not even start on Anky, et al), but I wish Pat would learn to keep his big mouth shut about other people.

In other words, if he wouldn't try to bring people to "his way" by bashing everyone else, I doubt if people would feel so much vitriol towards him. Maybe its his ADD coming out.

But I have no doubt there are certain horseman he has keen respect for (WAZ for one, and Freddy Knie ), and I bet he doesn't show the same egotistical side to them.

So, on to the next RK thread....

SillyHorse
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:42 PM
It saddens me to read some of the negative comments made by posters without them knowing all the facts.

It saddens me to go to a venue like Equine Affaire and listen to unprovoked verbal assaults on dressage and dressage riders, which is exactly what I heard from the Parellis.

My fervent wish is for you not only to educate them, but to impart some of your widsom, kindness, and tact as well.

caffeinated
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:54 PM
But I think people are too hard on the Parelli's. Yes, Pat has a HUGE ego -- and that makes him his own worst enemy. But I don't care what anyone says, he can do alot with a horse. I remember watching him ride a horse with no saddle, bridle, neck rope or stick at a full canter around a huge field, then canter up to the back of a moving horse trailer and canter the horse right into the trailer! Now, I'll lay you $100 down not one of the people who posted on this thread can do that.

Now, before some smart ass says, "Why would someone want to do that?", well, ALL of these things are just a way to strengthen the bond between horse & rider. Why would someone want to ride their horse in some silly pattern (dressage & reining) or leap over really tall objects or pull a cart around cones? I mean, none of those activities have anything to do with if the sun rises tomorrow.

the key difference being that teaching a horse to go into a trailer at speed is more dangerous. 1) if you mistime it, you get your head knocked off 2) if the horse slips going in, it's likely to be a bad injury, 3) if the horse gets into the habit of running into trailers or other small spaces, you're asking for someone to get run over.

Every horse activity is dangerous in some way, but usually one tries to stack the odds on the side of not getting run over or decapitated.

Anyway, glad WAZ chimed in. Not sure it changes my mind about much, perhaps I will have to watch some of the clinic DVDs. :)

danee
Oct. 15, 2007, 01:07 PM
Whoever thinks the Parellis and looking for an emdorsement only obviously doesn't know much- the Parellis are the world's largest trainers by far- they need no endoresments.

Watch RFD TV- after and during Clinton Anderson, Craig Cameron, Denis Reis and on and on they always have this show was made possible by... and list all the products. At the end of the Parelli's show.. brought to you by the Parelli Tour.

I am a student of PNH and WAZ and they both have vast amounts of knowledge- but very different knowledge. Has the Parelli's made some stupid comments- ABSOLUTELY!!! But that doesn't detract from thier obvious horsemanship and lets face it, what person in the public's eye hasn't done ten times worse???!!!

I love WAZ but PNH asking for an endorsement from WAZ is like Disney asking for an endorsement from the local corner store. I"m not saying that Disney is "better" than the corner store, but when you look at number of students and international recognition throughout the horse world the "Pepperoni's" are much much much better known than WAZ. Talk to European dressage riders even and still, PNH is probably better known.

Even I find that is a little sad as I would like to see WAZ really lay a thick heavy mark on the horse world, but to say the Parellis just want the endorsement- come on.

WAZ himself just complimented them to death- would he waste his time on some one that didn't want to learn????

SillyHorse
Oct. 15, 2007, 01:16 PM
I love WAZ but PNH asking for an endorsement from WAZ is like Disney asking for an endorsement from the local corner store. I can't believe I'm reading this. My experience is that the average Parelli devotee is a backyard horse owner who has no trainer because he or she doesn't believe he or she needs one; just wave a rope or a whip around and eventually, by the process of elimination, the horse might figure out what you want it to do.

Walter Zettl's devotees, on the other hand, are engaged, serious horse people who are interested in classical dressage training. This is no "local corner store," sweetie. A better analogy might be Two Buck Chuck asking for an endorsement from Chateau d'Yquem.

dutchmike
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:12 PM
It saddens me deeply to see people like WAZ getting involved with linkenpoops like the Pepperoni's ,I'm sure WAZ has good intensions but sooner or later will get kicked in the butt by those people. Again I got another horse for training wich was pepperoni trained and let me tell you he has no manners and it is a real shame that now I have to show who is telling who what to do just because some or other idiot let him get away with murder.

Sandy M
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:14 PM
throughout the horse world the "Pepperoni's" are much much much better known than WAZ. Talk to European dressage riders even and still, PNH is probably better known.



Yeah, but what is PNH better "known" for to European dressage riders? Not something they are buying like here in the U.S.

Suki
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:15 PM
I have been reading through this post and I actually had to sign up to post because this one just seems so destructive and non productive for everyone involved.

Can't we all just get along?

I am not a backyard rider...I am currently showing on the the small tour (with scores as high as 68% at PSG) and I do PNH (currently Level 1 moving to level2). I live in the same area as WAZ and attend his clinics regularly when he is local to me. I even organized a clinic with him 2 years ago in Brantford...maybe some of you where there!!!

I also audited the Karen Rolhf clinic in Fergus this weekend, which WAZ also audited.
If we can just step back for a second and try and see what good each of us brings to the table, we will find we have so much to learn from all disciplines not just BN dressage trainers.
I had never seen Karen teach previous to this weekend and I was impressed. Yes, the skills she was emparting to the participants where not advanced dressage but you better believe that we would have alot better lower level riders bringing on happier upper level horses if we had more people teaching with Karen's (and WAZ) philosophy. Karen was positive, funny and empathetic to both horses and riders. She was a pleasure to watch and reminded me implicitly of my lessons with WAZ.

I have never met PP and LP but my impression of natural horsemanship is quite simple. It takes into account the horses natural reactions to flight and fight and tries to harmonize our interactions so that we get the most from our horses with the least amount of effort. Isn't that a fundamental of dressage? The dance that looks effortless?

The seven games in level 1 are not the be all and end all in PNH...it's just the start of a foundation...like learning how to do posting trot on the correct diagonal. We have to look past what the actual game itself is and try and be analytical horsemen who can apply the fundamental of the game to our practical discipline.
My PSG horse was able to learn everything in Level 1 within 1 month and I didn't have to spend hours and hours at it. I had alot of fun doing something different from our everyday training now and again and it certainly didn't hurt my horses scores over the summer. Do I have a better connection with my horse...I don't really know...we had a great connection before. Would someone starting out have a better connection...I certainly think so. Do I think I wasted my time...not in the least. Just like I don't think I have wasted my time with lessons from WAZ.

My point here is, can't we just be open to listen and learn even if it's not "our" way of doing things. I don't think everything by BN trainers is good stuff...ie Rollkur....I don't think everything PP has to say is good stuff either...Ie I hate tongue twisters and rhymes.
But I look past what I don't like and try and take away some good from the message.

SillyHorse
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:16 PM
danee: better known does not equate to better.

Suki: The bad feelings towards the Parellis have less to do with their training philosophy and methods than it has to do with their constant belittling of dressage. I have never heard a dressage clinician belittle the Parellis (or any NH practitioner for that matter), yet every time the Parellis put on their "show," they make snarky, nasty comments about dressage. THAT's the main problem.

Suki
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:18 PM
Sorry...Deleted...Newbie double posted!

ToN Farm
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:41 PM
What I don't understand is why he wants to teach the P's at all. They already claim to be horse experts. What help does Waz provide them? The other question is why Waz wants to dedicate himself to these two individuals that are not dressage riders. There many dressage riders that want to get into his overbooked clinics. The P's are taking away Waz's time that I feel would be better spent helping the dressage community.

Sonesta
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:51 PM
Thank you, WAZ, for clarifying the issue for us. Doubtless, we are all delighted that you will continue teaching all of us and not just the Ps. Perhaps some of your graciousness will be emulated by the Ps.

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:54 PM
Let me weigh in on this topic. Pat and Linda are students of mine. They are some of the most capable and committed horsemen I have worked with.
The Parelli’s, out of concern for my health and the effect of excessive travel on it, made me an offer to primarily work with them. As generous as their offer was, my devotion to the horse and the riders who love them, and my goal to educate as many as possible, would not allow me to accept it.
It saddens me to read some of the negative comments made by posters without them knowing all the facts.
The Parelli’s have contacted me with a sincere apology for the misunderstanding. I continue to teach in clinics around the country including very productive lessons at the Parelli’s.

Sorry for being such a cynic, but I do not believe that this has been authenticated. It could have come from anyone.

claire
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:55 PM
What I don't understand is why he wants to teach the P's at all. They already claim to be horse experts. What help does Waz provide them? The other question is why Waz wants to dedicate himself to these two individuals that are not dressage riders. There many dressage riders that want to get into his overbooked clinics. The P's are taking away Waz's time that I feel would be better spent helping the dressage community.


ToN, Good questions. I am afraid of what the answer is. :(

MyReality
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:06 PM
Exactly, I wonder if WAZ who posted is "the WAZ". I'd be surprised if he is. ;-)

Sonesta
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:13 PM
Yes, this is THE WAZ. Promise.

Shenandoah
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:13 PM
Hmmm...Maybe it was "The Wizard of WAZ" that posted??

IveGotRhythm
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:26 PM
I do not usually post on this forum, nor have I read every single post. My only knowledge of Parelli is from this board.

So I am truly sorry if this is either repetative or ridiculously stupid to ask.

I am genuinely ignorant.

What is the Parelli's gain from associating themselves with a dressage trainer? I thought they made fun of dressage and top level dressage riders? I thought their target clientelle was middle aged women willing to buy overpriced rope halters to fulfill their childhood dream of having a relationship with a beautiful creature that they had no idea how to ride in their western saddles?

I don't get the Parelli/Dressage connection at all...

Kyzteke
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:29 PM
the key difference being that teaching a horse to go into a trailer at speed is more dangerous. 1) if you mistime it, you get your head knocked off 2) if the horse slips going in, it's likely to be a bad injury, 3) if the horse gets into the habit of running into trailers or other small spaces, you're asking for someone to get run over.

Every horse activity is dangerous in some way, but usually one tries to stack the odds on the side of not getting run over or decapitated.

Anyway, glad WAZ chimed in. Not sure it changes my mind about much, perhaps I will have to watch some of the clinic DVDs. :)

Really? So Three-Day eventing is safe? I had no idea. Don't you think someone like PP DID stack the odds towards safety? Hmmm...like no-skid mats in the trailer, practice (ALOT of practice) and we are to assume the horse isn't running rampant all over the earth jumping into open (moving trailers). Geeze, some people don't even think before they type.

For me or you, this might be dangerous. Just as if we decided we were going to be trapeze artists. But for PP this ISN'T dangerous, because his level of skill is far above either mine or yours.

Which was my point.

Kyzteke
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:40 PM
I can't believe I'm reading this. My experience is that the average Parelli devotee is a backyard horse owner who has no trainer because he or she doesn't believe he or she needs one; just wave a rope or a whip around and eventually, by the process of elimination, the horse might figure out what you want it to do.

Walter Zettl's devotees, on the other hand, are engaged, serious horse people who are interested in classical dressage training. This is no "local corner store," sweetie. A better analogy might be Two Buck Chuck asking for an endorsement from Chateau d'Yquem.

Oh, PULEEZZE!! Talk about a generalization!

Many people go to PP because they have horses that they can't always control and Anky isn't around to teach them RK -- oops wrong thread -- anyway, they have horses who have problems and they love the horse enough to not just send it down the road. Isn't that to be commended?

It may be news to you, but GOOD horse trainers are as rare as hen's teeth, at least in this area.

And please don't try to convince me that just because someone does dressage that makes them "better" horsemen. I've been around DQ's who couldn't get their horses to get 50 ft away from the arena without the horse having a fit (submission? hardily!) and they couldn't ride worth a bag of manure. I took my NH (not PP) trained 3 yr. old to a jumping clinic with some DQ's there and their "advanced" horses were total fruitloops -- afraid of the rider taking off her jacket, afraid of the hissing heater, afraid of the barn cat, for heaven's sake! These were (so-called) "broke" horses. I'm telling you, those DQ's could have used alittle PP in their lives.

As Suli says, there is something for the DISCERNING, INTELLIGENT (if the shoe fits) horseperson to take home from both places...it isn't neccessary to get sucked into the PP product BS or decide it's "all or nothing."

And, yes, sometimes I wish PP would just SHUT HIS MOUTH, but hell, I'm going to him for horsetraining advice, don't want to marry the guy....

Bluey
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:41 PM
---"What is the Parelli's gain from associating themselves with a dressage trainer? I thought they made fun of dressage and top level dressage riders? I thought their target clientelle was middle aged women willing to buy overpriced rope halters to fulfill their childhood dream of having a relationship with a beautiful creature that they had no idea how to ride in their western saddles?

I don't get the Parelli/Dressage connection at all..."---


One possible reason: Linda Parelli was a dressage rider under what I assume was bad instruction, for what she tells, somewhere in Australia, when she met cowboy Pat.
Pat helped her with her horse and the rest is history.
This many years later, maybe they decided to give dressage another try?

Another possible reason: Pat got a supposedly highly dressage trained horse and was proudly doing a semblance of a cross between passage and piaffe on him in his demonstrations.
Someone may have pointed out that it was not correct and he got curious about it, so decided to learn more.

You can add any other reasons that may come to mind.
Unless the Parellis tell us, we would not have any way of knowing why.:confused:

I know that I had to grit my teeth to keep from saying something, since I never was where I could or was polite to do so, every time they made some less than gracious remarks about English riding and dressage in general.
To me and many, it does seem strange that now they want to learn more of something they seemed to despise so strongly.
Guess that people change their mind all the time, why not them?

caffeinated
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:41 PM
If you read for comprehension, you will realize I said no horse related activity is 100% safe.

Do you really think it's a good idea to show off by cantering into a horse trailer mounted and grabbing the top of the trailer at the last moment? Is this really a good thing to teach people? I'm sure PP does prepare and practice, but the fact is that in the real world, it's a pretty horrible idea to do this, and encouraging it just seems like a beheading or injured horse waiting to happen.

And yes, I do think before I post, thanks.

Kyzteke
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:42 PM
Let's get Anky & Coby to do RK on PP!! That will solve alot of problems....

Bluey
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:49 PM
Let's get Anky & Coby to do RK on PP!! That will solve alot of problems....

I think that you got your NH clinicians mixed there.
PP is not known for the rubberneck, behind the bit rollkur gives you, in the name of "lightness".
It is another of those NH clinicians and boy, it is really bad.
Hopefully it won't become an established fad in western riding now.:eek:

SillyHorse
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:49 PM
And please don't try to convince me that just because someone does dressage that makes them "better" horsemen. I've been around DQ's who couldn't get their horses to get 50 ft away from the arena without the horse having a fit (submission? hardily!) and they couldn't ride worth a bag of manure. I took my NH (not PP) trained 3 yr. old to a jumping clinic with some DQ's there and their "advanced" horses were total fruitloops -- afraid of the rider taking off her jacket, afraid of the hissing heater, afraid of the barn cat, for heaven's sake! These were (so-called) "broke" horses. I'm telling you, those DQ's could have used alittle PP in their lives.
Now you're the one generalizing. I specifically wrote Zettl devotees, not dressage riders. From this vitriolic post bashing dressage riders, it's clear that you are a Parelli disciple.

dalpal
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:58 PM
I can't believe I'm reading this. My experience is that the average Parelli devotee is a backyard horse owner who has no trainer because he or she doesn't believe he or she needs one; just wave a rope or a whip around and eventually, by the process of elimination, the horse might figure out what you want it to do.

Walter Zettl's devotees, on the other hand, are engaged, serious horse people who are interested in classical dressage training. This is no "local corner store," sweetie. A better analogy might be Two Buck Chuck asking for an endorsement from Chateau d'Yquem.


Ditto to this post!

My only beef with the Parelli people is the constant dissing of other disciplines.

I don't know them personally, they may be wonderful people....BUT, I wish Pat would just shut up about DRESS AGE and go on with his own training method. There was absolutely no need to bring Anky's award's cermony ride into his NH clinic.

And for the record, I am not impressed or wowed that some yahoo can ride a tackless horse into a moving trailer at a gallop.....that should be a commerical for Vonage....you know the "sometimes people do stupid things" slogan.

MassageLady
Oct. 15, 2007, 04:08 PM
Exactly, I wonder if WAZ who posted is "the WAZ". I'd be surprised if he is. ;-)
My thoughts exactly! I haven't seen a thing about it on his website...you'd think he'd authenticate it there. Good greif, anyone could come on here and with the USER NAME 'WAZ' and post...maybe I'll post under Linda Pepperoni...what do you think??:lol:

egontoast
Oct. 15, 2007, 04:19 PM
The Parelli’s have contacted me with a sincere apology for the misunderstanding. I continue to teach in clinics around the country including very productive lessons at the Parelli’s

This speaks volumes. Oh, it's Waz all right and he's confirming in his gentlemanly way that, as suspected, Parelli's announcement was a complete and utter lie. Apologizing for the lie after the fact does not change the fact that it was a lie. Why else would PP apologize.

Waz is not onto these people yet. Too bad.

MyReality
Oct. 15, 2007, 04:22 PM
Yes, this is THE WAZ. Promise.

Could you share why you are so certain?

caffeinated
Oct. 15, 2007, 04:25 PM
My thoughts exactly! I haven't seen a thing about it on his website...you'd think he'd authenticate it there. Good greif, anyone could come on here and with the USER NAME 'WAZ' and post...maybe I'll post under Linda Pepperoni...what do you think??:lol:

what should he do, post his social security number and a description of his birthmarks?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 15, 2007, 04:43 PM
I am hardly of the caliber of WAZ - in my dreams!!! But even in my clueless, bumbling way I thought there should be a better path. I am very fortunate to have a trainer who has been able to guide me - before my time, when WAZ was in better health, he did some clinics at our barn, and I know they would love to have him again (yes, us and a zillion others!).

This is why I just don't get the Parellis. The classical principles are there already, and have been expounded by several masters. Ideally, you have someone on the ground - physically present - who can help you, because as much as you may gain from a book or video, in my experience most of it stays in your head and rarely travels below the neck. I don't want to do anything that would scare my horse, or possibly injure us both - if I do do something like that, it's out of ignorance (although even I, again, in my clueless and bumbling fashion, appreciate that galloping hell bent for leather into a trailer is neither relaxing nor safe). My take is, if it's a crisis - like Katrina, for example - no amount of dancing on a ball or whatever is going to put you in that same situation, but I would hope that the trust and the bond with my horse that I have spent 10 years developing would supercede that.

My goals are simple (albeit not so easy to achieve!): I want to make my horse physically better, so that his lifetime of soundness is extended as far as it can be. I want him to be relaxed, and engaged, and I want us to end every session better than we were, even if only in a small way. I don't always achieve this, but I try.

And the unexpected plus is that by trying to achieve this with my horse, I am achieving it for myself: I walk better, I channel emotions better, I enjoy the process.

And I don't see that in the Parelli work. So much of my horse's issues are my issues, largely physical, but also emotional. Horses truly are a mirror. I simply can't imagine how I could travel that better path using Parelli's methods - not when it has been so much more eloquently, elegantly, and simply stated by so many who have come well before him.

Sonesta
Oct. 15, 2007, 04:47 PM
It was me that sent him the links to this thread and the one on UDBB, so I knew he would post. And he is already a poster on UDBB under his WAZ name with 65 posts. He made this same post on that bb under his existing WAZ user name. Is that enough for you?

MyReality
Oct. 15, 2007, 04:48 PM
Whoever that is going to have lessons with him, can ask in person.

I don't understand why PP + his people are so interested in dressage, something that they do not practice or teach, something they denounce regularly. This inconsistency is not healthy and greatly reduce their credibility. There are PP people who also do dressage, or dressage people also do PP, there is nothing wrong with it. PP need to figure out what his discipline means, if it indeed is to be evolved into a discipline and I see value in it, instead of trying to marry into dressage.

That "see what I can do that others dare not do" has to stop, because I do believe PP need to protect his reputation, instead of having his poor students fight for him, while try not to sound defensive or like an idiot. Jumping picnic tables don't make them hunter/jumpers, then their way of doing flat work is not dressage either.

Ja Da Dee
Oct. 15, 2007, 05:08 PM
Whoever that is going to have lessons with him, can ask in person.

I don't understand why PP + his people are so interested in dressage, something that they do not practice or teach, something they denounce regularly. This inconsistency is not healthy and greatly reduce their credibility. There are PP people who also do dressage, or dressage people also do PP, there is nothing wrong with it. PP need to figure out what his discipline means, if it indeed is to be evolved into a discipline and I see value in it, instead of trying to marry into dressage.

.

Probably the same reason he hooked up with The O'Connors... to try to gain some legitimacy in the english equestrian circles. An entire untapped market. Also, if any of his devotees are thinking of trying this "dress age" he disses, he can say that he knows about it, so they don't need to find a real dressage trainer, but that his methods work for everything.

While I was left wondering about the part of the quote that implied they were only working with him, I was surprised about the part where he mentioned that WAZ was learning his methods... again, implying to his devotees that he teaches the master. While I'm SURE that WAZ, just like us all, learns from all of his experiences, I doubt that WAZ will start his future clinics with a "join up" session.

Adamantane
Oct. 15, 2007, 05:36 PM
what should he do, post his social security number and a description of his birthmarks?

Eclectic Horseman and others do have a point, so probably at some point there will be some verification. Mr. Zettl's website would be the cleanest and simplest way. Alternatively the moderators probably have the means to verify it, or at least confirm based on origin if it clearly is other that as claimed.

There is nothing inconsistent in the WAZ poster's comments. They account for the apparent discrepancies. What I find most plausible is the tone of it. If someone is impersonating Mr. Zettl, the poster certainly hasn't stated anything outlandish in the context of the public facts.

If I were WAZ and wanted to calm the roiling waters here, probably I might take the same route. Lord knows there seem to be very few here who see this discussion dispassionately.:no:

This morning it crossed my mind that one good way to resolve this controversy and assuage the outrage of what here, primarily, appears to be dressage partisans, would in fact be if Mr. Zettl were to weigh in.

So checking in after mailing off my income tax tribute for another year, I had to chuckle.:lol: First one all day.:yes:

Surely Denny Emerson isn't the only high profile figure in the horse world to be interested in or be willing to participate in his/her own right from time to time in COTH discussions?

AllWeatherGal
Oct. 15, 2007, 06:41 PM
Surely Denny Emerson isn't the only high profile figure in the horse world to be interested in or be willing to participate in his/her own right from time to time in COTH discussions?

No. Lendon Grey (?a?) posts here, as well.

STF
Oct. 15, 2007, 07:28 PM
Dear Walter,

As much as I respect you and have read and followed much of your teachings, I think you are missing a huge part of the overall dilemma.

I personally was at College station, TX a few yrs back when Linda Parelli told 100-200people at the NH clinic how asinine and harmful dressage was to a horse. Continued with how dressage was a waste of time and had no meaning to horse or rider.

YES, this was said!!!

She mocked and made fun of our sport. I was THERE, and listened with my own ears.

So, what is that doing for our sport? Most of those people were very limited horse owners and had not idea how to even canter a horse, no less the knowledge to know the difference of what Linda was saying. The belived it and carried that "knowledge" to other limited people.

Its sad that Linda said to that many people, who will now carry out her "teaching and words" to theirs friends and so on and so on, etc, etc - that Dressage is harmful and bad for the horse?!?
Those who may get this negative info about our sport may have and more than likely lost potential dressage riders, horse owners or breeders.

Pat Parelli has publicly insulted dressage on National TV...more than ONCE!! Insulted the entire training theory of dressage. Some of which was just recently.

These are people who attack the dignity of what you teach, but you still continue to defend them.

This is confusing to many of us, why someone like yourself who has dedicated your life to our sport would agree to work with people who have disrespected our sport over and over again to thousands of people throughout the world.

Maybe the people they are claming and acting to be in your presence are not the people they really are in the normal public world.

Good luck on your teachings with this pair and I hope you can at least stop their inflammatory and derogative statements about our sport in public setting (as well as international TV and clinics) in the future so it does not mislead the innocent bystanders who may be interested in becoming a dressage rider.

MistyBlue
Oct. 15, 2007, 07:39 PM
Oh for heaven's sake people...Mr Z registered with his e-mail address...and he cannot complete registration and post unless it is his actual address.
This forum gets so inane with it's "Oooo, that post blew my logic out of the water...so it's gotta be a fake" stuff. :rolleyes:



Now, I'll lay you $100 down not one of the people who posted on this thread can do that.


Did you need my home address to send the check? No, I've never done PP or any type of NH in my lifetime. Yet my current AQHA did just that twice so far...except the trailer was parked and open. Frankly I don't open trailer doors until they're parked...I've got some aversion to unnecessary vet bills if they can be at all avoided. But we do think it's cute how I can just let loose the gelding and say load up...and he does whether he's wearing anything or not. My mare does the same...only I do need to get her to the trailer first. I don't ride them on...modern technology hasn't made a trailer yet that someone can ride a 17hh horse onto.

The PP's aren't the only folks who can ride without tack...and it's not a new concept either. Back in ye olden days everyone where I rode had to be able to handle a horse around a simple course without any tack before moving up a level. The hunters were trained primarily to be ridden around the simple 8 with the reins dropped...back then judges wanted to see metronome sweepy movement on all those OTTB's being ridden on loopy loose reins.
As far as I know Ms Westfall doesn't do NH or PP...she wins reining competitions without tack.
There are scores of children in Mongolia who ride without tack or with tack depending on their moods...these are barely over toddler age.

However...if someone wants exacting precision in a show ring...one needs tack 99% of the time.

The PP's are gimicks...yet I don't begrudge them that at all. Personally I wish I had thought of marketing common sense horsemanship in shiny packages and videos, promoting them further with tricks that ooh and ahh newbie riders, came up with new names for old tools-painted them new colors and sold them for a 5000% mark-up and the furthered my reputation with fibs and bashing of other disciplines and trainers...
And that's not meant to be snarky either. :) Seriously...who on here isn't in some small part of their brain kicking themselves for not doing the same simple things and becoming multi-millionnaires? :winkgrin:
My *only* gripe about the PP's is that absolutely nowhere on their shiny outer packaging, absolutely nowhere during their public clinics that I've seen and absolutely nowhere on their website or print advertising do they even hint at their caveat emptor: To use a certified and proffesional NH trainer for problem/possibly dangerous horses.
See, it's only printed where it can be found AFTER any customer has paid for their products.

STF
Oct. 15, 2007, 07:44 PM
To use a certified and proffesional NH trainer for problem/possibly dangerous horses

No, those are the ones the Parelli methods usually make and then the real trainers have to get and fix! :(

MistyBlue
Oct. 15, 2007, 07:52 PM
Isn't that the truth STF...we've got a glut of now-grown PMU drafts in my area...bought by non-horse people who shopped online and found out they could get a CUTE baby horsie for a couple hundred bucks and a way to train it to do everything for a shiny training package for another couple hundred bucks. I can name 5 of them (by horse name also) that are full grown and not halter broke yet. 2 of the owners were the ones to clue me in that they had no idea until after the videos came in the mail and they opened them that they found out there is a warning to not try this alone and that the few hundred bucks they blew on tapes were not an end all/be all like was touted on their website.
I've 'halter broke' a few of those...3 after they broke through their tape temp fencing and went cantering by my house...took me a while to figure out why these loose horses I kept returning had such bad ground manners. Because dragging a 1300 lb 6 year old up the street as it's introduction to the halter isn't easy. :lol:

LexInVA
Oct. 15, 2007, 08:30 PM
Parelli-ism is one of the big things that drove me away from associating with equestrians and especially from dating them. I honestly don't know what is worse: The "I-Know-It-All" and "I'm A Real Equestrian!" attitude that Parelli-ites constantly exhibit or the inane nonsense I was subject to while in their presence. Nothing is worse than going on a date with a girl who won't shut up about how much potential her horse (that she keeps in what structurally amounts to a toolshed) has and how far they have come together with the "games". Nevermind the fact that she can't get near the horse with any type of saddle or the fact that it never leaves it's crudely fenced-in living space where it gets nothing but cow feed from the farm next door. While I might humor a Parelli-ite (especially if she's cute) for the sake of being sociable (I admit my own social skills are lacking these days but it's not because I'm mean or anything), I can certainly say that they are very much a big contributor to the ongoing problem of "Where do we put these horses?" due to the Parelli-espoused belief that horsemanship can be taught to anyone with videos, books, re-branded sex toys, action figures, and video games. Okay, I made those last two items up but they are coming sooner or later from John Lyons or someone else. As much as I would love for everyone to be able to enjoy horses regardless of where they come from or what they are, the line needs to be drawn somewhere and in my opinion, that's a good place to start.

Bluey
Oct. 15, 2007, 08:31 PM
Isn't that the truth STF...we've got a glut of now-grown PMU drafts in my area...bought by non-horse people who shopped online and found out they could get a CUTE baby horsie for a couple hundred bucks and a way to train it to do everything for a shiny training package for another couple hundred bucks. I can name 5 of them (by horse name also) that are full grown and not halter broke yet. 2 of the owners were the ones to clue me in that they had no idea until after the videos came in the mail and they opened them that they found out there is a warning to not try this alone and that the few hundred bucks they blew on tapes were not an end all/be all like was touted on their website.
I've 'halter broke' a few of those...3 after they broke through their tape temp fencing and went cantering by my house...took me a while to figure out why these loose horses I kept returning had such bad ground manners. Because dragging a 1300 lb 6 year old up the street as it's introduction to the halter isn't easy. :lol:


Remember that just because some people can't follow a simple system and train their horses, horses that they bought and are not adequate for them, we should not bash the system.
That is what Linda Parelli does about dressage, bash it because she was trying to learn with a seemingly unsuitable horse and poor instruction in person and, honestly, she is not a talented rider that could find the way on her own, as most talented riders in her situation do.

Those first PP levels are not to learn to train horses, but for people on already older trained horses to learn how to work around horses.
That people misuse them and then can't get things done is the fault of people, not the system.

I do think that it is insane to have ONLY a tape to learn to train horses.
A hands on experienced teacher is the best, most sensible and right way to learn to train horses, AFTER we have learned about horses ourselves, handling and riding.
BUT, it is not the american, do it yourself way.:confused:
Many horses the losers there...:(

dutchmike
Oct. 15, 2007, 09:15 PM
Remember that just because some people can't follow a simple system and train their horses, horses that they bought and are not adequate for them, we should not bash the system.


The only suitable horse would be what?. A rocking horse?.
The only good stories come from pp followers as soon as the horse gets in other hands all I hear is how bad mannered those horses are. I have to work with 2 at the moment that were total morons in the first few days

MistyBlue
Oct. 15, 2007, 10:43 PM
Remember that just because some people can't follow a simple system and train their horses, horses that they bought and are not adequate for them, we should not bash the system.
That is what Linda Parelli does about dressage, bash it because she was trying to learn with a seemingly unsuitable horse and poor instruction in person and, honestly, she is not a talented rider that could find the way on her own, as most talented riders in her situation do.

Those first PP levels are not to learn to train horses, but for people on already older trained horses to learn how to work around horses.
That people misuse them and then can't get things done is the fault of people, not the system.

I do think that it is insane to have ONLY a tape to learn to train horses.
A hands on experienced teacher is the best, most sensible and right way to learn to train horses, AFTER we have learned about horses ourselves, handling and riding.
BUT, it is not the american, do it yourself way.

I completely agree with you that folks should not be buying a horse on a whim...with little to no experience for either horse or human. I agree it's a recipe for disaster more often than not. I also agree that it's the American Way.
But the American Way brings up my point exactly...and this is what the PP's capitalize on. They know people want to do it On Their Own. They don't want to send a horse to boarding training. They don't want to pay a trainer a few hundred bucks every month for a few months. They want a cheap horse, preferrably a young one or a "rescue" from auction or a bad situation and they want the American Dream..."I want what I want, I want it now, I don't want to pay more for it than I absolutely have to and I certainly don't want anyone telling me how to do things." And that's the genius of the PP marketing...the genius part is not packaging and boxing up good old common sense that most experienced horse people have. The genius part is recognizing the mindset of Americans and tapping into the tens of thousands of people who have purchased the wrong horse and want to hear a Fast and Easy way to change it into the Horse Of Their Dreams.
The first time horse buyer with the completely inappropriate horse (usually labelled as previously abused or a baby they can grow with) goes to their site and reads this testimonial:


I bought Max 6 years ago at an auction – he was my first horse. He cost $800.00 and the bidding was between me and the slaughter house man. I bought him against everyone’s advice but I just couldn’t let him go. It took 2 hours to load him on the trailer, we could barely lead him to it, he was pulling and lunging trying to get away from us. Once we got him to the barn, he tried to knock down a gate and cut his leg badly. He was extremely dominant and would just run right over people. Under saddle he was unstoppable and uncontrollable, he would bolt sideways and run into other horses and their riders. He would throw himself against gates and try to break through them. He would not go backwards or sideways. I tried using different trainers, methods, whips, bits and all the conventional stuff but he still was an unsafe horse. Then I went to a Parelli tour stop and both our lives changed. We have been following the program for 2 years and are almost through Level 2. I can say “we” now because Max and I are a team, with a strong partnership. I ride him bareback with just a halter or hackamore. Leading is no longer a problem because he follows me everywhere.
Dangerous horse...that people told her not to buy. And look at that...real live trainers couldn't fix him...but these tapes and this complete greenie certainly could!
Or they read this one:


"Ten months ago I bought a horse - my first. I'm quite green and she's a bit green (6 years old at the time) which they tell me is a bad combo. I live in a small town with very few instructors so after I bought Tia and was waiting for the vet check, it hit me - what am I going to do with this horse! Yeah I can take a lesson once a week (if the one instructor has room) but what do I do with her the rest of the time!
I had heard of Parelli and knew it was Natural Horsemanship, which sounded good to me, but I also knew they had a home study program! I ordered the Level 1 and it arrived at the same time as my horse. I'm now on to Level 2 and am so grateful I have some way of building a relationship with this beautiful creature on my own. Thank you for putting out these great packages!"
Home study...why she bought Level One. For the green owner and green horse...tape and horse arrive together and life's been a bed of roses since. So yep, no trainers needed and no experience needed for horse or rider...just buy the tape and magic will happen.

So they think..."Geez, anyone can do this regardless of not having any experience." So far nowhere on the site has a the newbie read anything about choosing the right horse (because according to them there aren't any wrong ones...only ones who haven't been trained the PP way yet) or have they come across anything stating how to evaluate when a real live PP trainer is defiitely needed. So they happily go to look up how to purchase into this, what it'll cost and where to start. That would be Level One...and here's what their site has for a description of Level One...a HOME study. (note the word HOME...doesn't seem to insinuate any trainer)


Level 1 Home Study Program



Level 1 is where true "horse savvy" begins. It creates a positive balance of trust and respect, eliminating many common problems and safety issues people encounter with their horses.

Aha...the newbie has found nirvana for $250 not including shipping. Probably half of what their PMU, nursemare foal or auction rescue cost them that they bought on a spur of the moment! That big bouncy drafty foal who's accidentally boinged them off of gates and playfully struck out at them in play...no worries...says right on the ad on thier site it ELIMINATES *many* common problems and SAFETY issues. So if the riding aged auction horse that threw them 5 times already and charged them is dangerous...this $250 will eliminate that safety issue!
Nowhere on that ad or site does it state not to rely on this Level One as a sole way to train a problem horse. As a matter of fact...it touts this as the answer to the newbie's problem horse and it's a HOME study...home means no pesky know it all expensive trainers needed! If the average person who purchases these DVDs were the type to frequent lessons or leasing a horse or had close friends with equine experience...they'd most likely not be looking online or on RFD TV for an answer on how to deal with a problem horse.

That, in a nutshell, is my issue with PP and most NH. Not the methods themselves. Not the users of the methods, nor the trainers of them. Not even the ones who were smart enough to package it in the first place. But it's the way it's marketed...not the actual product...that's the type of marketing that gets more horses and owners in trouble that I've seen than it helps. It's, IMO, the same thing as the smarmy infomericals that advertise how YOU too can become a billionnaire real estate investor for $300 for someone's SYSTEM. Extremely few who buy it becomes rich...only the person who convinced people it's that easy to get rich and got them to send them their money gets really rich. They bend marketing just enough to dupe rubes...only with this it's horses who are losing out and not human rubes who thought they could get rich quick. I'm in CT...lotsa horses here for a small state. Go to a local small auction here...most are failures at one of the NH "train 'em at home" programs. :no:

Kyzteke
Oct. 15, 2007, 10:51 PM
Now you're the one generalizing. I specifically wrote Zettl devotees, not dressage riders. From this vitriolic post bashing dressage riders, it's clear that you are a Parelli disciple.

See, that's the problem -- so many of you think we all have to be somebody's "disciple." Personally, I'm nobody's.

I've taken clinics with Parelli instructors, yes, and razzed THEM about trying to convince me I HAD to have some special halter to make it work. I showed up with my off-brand lead rope, plain rope halter and homemade carrot stick.

The point is, I doubt anybody studies ONLY with WAZ. And I've seen ALOT of bad riding in dressage rings. And I've seen really good riding in NH clinics. And the other way around.

If people would simply THINK FOR THEMSELVES then we'd gain more.

dutchmike
Oct. 15, 2007, 10:53 PM
If people would simply THINK FOR THEMSELVES then we'd gain more.

That is how pp makes his money. He needs people that don't think

equi-librium
Oct. 15, 2007, 11:03 PM
im gonna back up the bus a bit to before the whole WAZ comment...

it wasnt so very long ago that pat and linda were brutally bashing teh dressage world. both telling people over national TV that dressage's training scale was all wrong, and that it was harmful to teh horse.. blah blah blah, a load of ignorant crap!!

so now ahead with the bus to the present, pat and linda are now all interested in dressage.. adding wannabe piaffes into their circus act... and now riding with WAZ.. sounds like their trying to play the market... which they have been VERY good at considering their set for life with all teh money they've made on their followers. WAZ will in time get smart, jsut as the o'connors did..

and now for my snarky ness of the nite....
parellis are good at games.. i'll give them that.. the 7 games of getting as much money outa people as they can..

the "parelli level marketing" games-

game 1- lure them in with jumping over barrels bareback, riding bridleless, and trotting in place (a bad piaffe) in hopes to solve all their horsey problems...

game 2- package up a training program to sell for $9234 each, each level gets more expensive as u go.

game 3- encourage them to buy a "special" ropehalter for 500% markup.

game 4- convince followers to use a stiff lungewhip affectionatly called a "carrot stick" as an extention of their hand... also sold for 500% markup..

game 5- bash other disciplines, only to want to join in to expand your marketing capabilities after butt kissing the top professionals in that given discipline.....

game 6- stretch the truth and see if your following will cover your hinnney.... aka.. let your disciples do your damage control...

game 7- laugh all the way to the bank with your millions of $$'s selling "common sence" in a box.....

only problem with it is, i wish i could have thought it up first.. :D:D:yes:

if only i could make some "koolaide"....:winkgrin:

SillyHorse
Oct. 16, 2007, 08:48 AM
The point is, I doubt anybody studies ONLY with WAZ.
Well, you are mistaken. I don't ride only with Walter, but I know many people who do.

Adamantane
Oct. 16, 2007, 09:58 AM
... action figures, and video games. Okay, I made those last two items up but they are coming sooner or later from John Lyons or someone else.

Hey, John Lyons well may be "commercial" but in my estimation, anyway, not in the same category as PP&LP, so let's not give him flack in the same breath. :no: When I first decided in my late 40's to learn to ride in addition to lessons and supportive advice from the people at the barn, I subscribed for a while to his publication. Yes, there were a couple ads for this or that JL clinic or video, but 90% of each issue was filled with useful practical horse-related information, the bulk of which had nothing to do with NH per se. (E.g., do PP&LP ever discuss how long a foal should be nursed before weaning and why? JL did.) What's more the couple of times I've seen him on TV, while he projects competent confidence he seems anything but full of himself.

Incidentally, what are these 'repackaged sex toys' of the Parellis that you refer to? Is there a side to their program that I've missed? :lol:

MassageLady
Oct. 16, 2007, 01:05 PM
repackaged sex toys:lol:?!?!
I completely agree with the fact that there is so much more to learn about horses than just the handling/training of them. This is my argument much of the time with the PP disciples...how much have you learned from parelli about the health of your horse? wrapping legs, giving shots, how to worm one that doesn't want to be wormed:yes:, etc...
It's just ONE part of owning a horse.

Kyzteke
Oct. 16, 2007, 01:32 PM
Did you need my home address to send the check? Yet my current AQHA did just that twice so far...except the trailer was parked and open. Frankly I don't open trailer doors until they're parked...I've got some aversion to unnecessary vet bills if they can be at all avoided. But we do think it's cute how I can just let loose the gelding and say load up...and he does whether he's wearing anything or not. My mare does the same...only I do need to get her to the trailer first. I don't ride them on...
products.

Getting a loose horse to walk in a open, still trailer is not that big a deal, MistyBlue. I've got one of them that does that...if the ramp is down and she's anywhere near the trailer, she goes in (checking for grain).

That's like saying I can jump like David O'Conner, except I only do 3 jumps at a time and they are only 2Ft tall....

Bluey
Oct. 16, 2007, 01:35 PM
The only suitable horse would be what?. A rocking horse?.
The only good stories come from pp followers as soon as the horse gets in other hands all I hear is how bad mannered those horses are. I have to work with 2 at the moment that were total morons in the first few days

Don't you regularly get terribly mannered horses from ALL kinds of disciplines?
I will still say that it depends on the PERSON also, if a system will work or not.

I know of plenty of PP trained horses that are very nice horses, some that came with seriuous issues from traditional BAD training.

That doesn't make the PP training inherently good, the other all bad.

dutchmike
Oct. 16, 2007, 01:43 PM
Don't you regularly get terribly mannered horses from ALL kinds of disciplines?
I will still say that it depends on the PERSON also, if a system will work or not.

I know of plenty of PP trained horses that are very nice horses, some that came with seriuous issues from traditional BAD training.

That doesn't make the PP training inherently good, the other all bad.

That is the thing though of other disciplines I also get some nice horses but from PP I have not seen one that is well mannered yet it have only been 4 sofar but all 4 had no manners at all almost worst then the horses I worked with in Portugal that were 3 and had never been handled by a human.

Kyzteke
Oct. 16, 2007, 01:44 PM
Remember that just because some people can't follow a simple system and train their horses, horses that they bought and are not adequate for them, we should not bash the system.(

Bingo!! I flunked biology in HS -- does that mean there is no merit in the subject? ANY system or method is only as good as the person doing it. Just because the check clears doesn't mean the person doing the buying will be any good.

But who wants to say, "Yes, you can be as good as me IF you spend the next 30 yrs. working with horses night and day."?

I can't remember who said it, but this is a true story: A concert goer and amateur musician once had the honor of meeting a world class violin maestro after he'd played at Carnegie Hall. The concert goer said, "You were so wonderful -- I would give my LIFE to play like that!" And the Master replied, "I have."

95.5% of the people don't put the time and effort and sacrifice into really taking it as far as it can go...but again, don't blame the system (and PP isn't doing ANYTHING that hasn't been done before, believe me).

Bluey
Oct. 16, 2007, 02:18 PM
That is the thing though of other disciplines I also get some nice horses but from PP I have not seen one that is well mannered yet it have only been 4 sofar but all 4 had no manners at all almost worst then the horses I worked with in Portugal that were 3 and had never been handled by a human.

We also got many horses from Portugal that were anywhere from 4 to maybe 8 or 9 and had never been handled and they learned just fine, made good beginner and trail horses for our school in a few months.

I wonder about those few "PP trained horses" running around, since for the first few levels, the training is for people, not horses.

A truly PP trained horse is one someone at the higher, trainer apprentice levels is training, not a horse someone learning to ride and handle is trying to manage.

There are way too many people and horses that go thru their system that do fine, as in any other horse venue and plenty that are not much good.

Maybe the reason you got those horses to retrain was just because they were from those failures and don't get to see those that do well?;)

MistyBlue
Oct. 16, 2007, 03:45 PM
Getting a loose horse to walk in a open, still trailer is not that big a deal, MistyBlue. I've got one of them that does that...if the ramp is down and she's anywhere near the trailer, she goes in (checking for grain).

That's like saying I can jump like David O'Conner, except I only do 3 jumps at a time and they are only 2Ft tall....

Neither is getting a tack-free horse to ride into a trailer at any gait. It's just that outside of NH types...nobody sees a need to do that or train that. It's not a marketable or useable skill for a horse to have...later on when trying to rehome or sell a horse, saying it can gallop you and itself into an open and possibly moving trailer without tack is not going to attract buyers. However...marketing a horse that can do it's job well and also can do the things a normal person expects of a horse will find it a nice new home.
It's like the trick training I did with my first horse when I first bought her. (as a preteen, I grew out of this type of stuff as maturity and reality kicked in) My first horse could sit like a dog, lay down, roll over, shake hands and all sorts of odd things. After that...the mare thought it was hilarious to sit down during class lineups. Not exactly a useful skill.
One can teach a horse to "count" or to nod or shake it's head on command to "answer" questions. It's trick training...it doesn't have any applicable purpose other than to amuse experienced horse people and to dupe new to horses people.
My *point* was...none of these tricks are actual skills other than as amusements. A horse can learn respect for a person and their personal space and a horse can learn to do it's job without doing potentially dangerous tricks with it.
I also notice there aren't any comments on PP's site marketing directly to the newbie horse owners stating stories and descriptions of their level one tapes as a way for someone with zero experience to get a safe, sane riding horse out of a dangerous acting one.
Honestly...that isn't ever addressed by any PP followers when it's brought up. Yet if Walter Zettl stated on his website that if you buy his tapes...you and your auction PMU will be competing FEI in no time without personal professional help...or if George Morris released tapes for sale that touted customer stories and personal endorsements that watching the tapes and practicing on your own without trainer help, then you too could get that WEF champion out of your Friesadraftaloosa....PP followers would be jumping on claims like that like a duck on a junebug. And those aren't even hypothetical scenerios that promote safety and reliability for a green human and a dangerous acting horse. :rolleyes:
When someone gets killed from believing the fantasy tales on that marketing...I'm hoping then the PP's will hop off their platforms and make some marketing changes. Although I can guaran-darned-tee you that many a horse has already been auctioned off over the years...and I can guarantee it because I do attend the auctions and talk to the sellers. The amount of newbies who believed the hype on those tapes and websites and clinics and TV shows is astounding...PP's know that due to sales volumes...yet the hundreds of cases that never worked out as promised by the tapes still end up at auctions.
They're welcome to their empire, their money, their system, their beliefs, their koolaide and their followers...and good to them and for them for those things. But remove the false marketing designed to sell more and dupe as many greenies as possible...because at this time their glory and their income means more to them than the fates of the buyers of these tapes and the horses those tapes are being used on. And until they change their marketing to reflect truth instead of a fairy tale that can harm more than it helps...a sane person with working brain cells and any equine experience cannot help but believe they're lying their butts off by saying the HORSES come first. JMHO.

JustMe111
Oct. 16, 2007, 07:29 PM
(E.g., do PP&LP ever discuss how long a foal should be nursed before weaning and why? JL did.
YEP! And they cover MUCH more than people think they do!

But not at level 1,2 or 3. Reason being,..Pat does not believe new horse owners SHOULD own a foal. He desitres that all horses have a chance in life to be solid citizens.

These topics are always amusing because people tend to put their foot in their mouth when commenting onw why they believe Parelli is lacking,..and yet they are so wrong abou what they THINK is taught.

It's so elementary that most horse people MISS the whole point!

Sad really.

MistyBlue
Oct. 16, 2007, 07:51 PM
These topics are always amusing because people tend to put their foot in their mouth when commenting onw why they believe Parelli is lacking,..and yet they are so wrong abou what they THINK is taught.

It's so elementary that most horse people MISS the whole point!

Sad really.

What I find sad, really, is that none of the PP followers ever have answers or comments on the posts I make that quote directly from their website on how they market. That post is on this page of this thread...post #162...about direct marketing to new-to-horses buyers and owners that level one covers these folks for dangerous behavior in horses. Without a trainer. That's where they're lacking...dreadfully IMO.
This isn't the first PP thread I've posted that information and questions on...and much like the other times....it's been completely and utterly ignored by the PP followers. :confused: I'm beginning to think that maybe there isn't any answer that can be given even by those who claim to understand the PP way.
I would also find it amusing *if* it wasn't so disheartening that even the followers can't justify that type of marketing. :sigh:

Adamantane
Oct. 16, 2007, 08:29 PM
YEP! And they cover MUCH more than people think they do!

But not at level 1,2 or 3. Reason being,..Pat does not believe new horse owners SHOULD own a foal. He desitres that all horses have a chance in life to be solid citizens.

These topics are always amusing because people tend to put their foot in their mouth when commenting onw why they believe Parelli is lacking,..and yet they are so wrong abou what they THINK is taught.

It's so elementary that most horse people MISS the whole point!

Sad really.

JL covered it in his subscription publication which I think cost me all of $20/year. :lol:

I learned about it four months after my first riding lesson. I wasn't interested in raising a foal, of course, but my ex had raised a couple so I was curious.

Do you think 'need to know' should be a requirement for someone to be able to learn something? Sure would have crippled my career had that been so.:eek:

So how much more than $20 did you need to fork over, Just Me, to reach the level with PP that finally permitted you to be able learn about the foal weaning timetable?

millerra
Oct. 16, 2007, 09:34 PM
what I find truely sad is that when I have met some other horse people in this area(lots of trail/pleasure/NH people here), they look at me in absolute horror when they hear I "do dressage". I am the evil witch horse tormenting lady because I "ride around in circles" and "do dressage". Such cruelty...

Yeah, thanks, PPs and who ever else, for that...

STF
Oct. 16, 2007, 09:55 PM
what I find truely sad is that when I have met some other horse people in this area(lots of trail/pleasure/NH people here), they look at me in absolute horror when they hear I "do dressage". I am the evil witch horse tormenting lady because I "ride around in circles" and "do dressage". Such cruelty...

Yeah, thanks, PPs and who ever else, for that...

THATS WHAT MY POINT IS!!!!!

I could give a rats ass if LP or PP chase around their horses naked with carrot sticks, teach the horses to sit, paw for food or crap in a toliet........ but leave our sport alone and for gawds sake, STOP misrepresenting it to the worst degree. :mad:

STF
Oct. 16, 2007, 09:58 PM
YEP! And they cover MUCH more than people think they do!

But not at level 1,2 or 3. Reason being,..Pat does not believe new horse owners SHOULD own a foal. He desitres that all horses have a chance in life to be solid citizens.

These topics are always amusing because people tend to put their foot in their mouth when commenting onw why they believe Parelli is lacking,..and yet they are so wrong abou what they THINK is taught.

It's so elementary that most horse people MISS the whole point!

Sad really.


Sad hu? :lol: Sad is people who go out and totally misrepresent, bad mouth and talk down of a sport they have no true concept of. Talk bad about it to the point that it misleads others into beliving that the sport is bad and harmful to the horse. Giving our sport a horrible name on national TV, at national open clinics, etc. Now, you really wana talk about SAD???? THATS SAD!!!

STF
Oct. 16, 2007, 10:02 PM
So how much more than $20 did you need to fork over, Just Me, to reach the level with PP that finally permitted you to be able learn about the foal weaning timetable?

And this is a man who jumps foals over fences.....
Shall we talk about sad again.

Bluey
Oct. 16, 2007, 10:08 PM
THATS WHAT MY POINT IS!!!!!

I could give a rats ass if LP or PP chase around their horses naked with carrot sticks, teach the horses to sit, paw for food or crap in a toliet........ but leave our sport alone and for gawds sake, STOP misrepresenting it to the worst degree. :mad:


I agree with you. It is shameful the way the PP bunch picks on most any horse discipline, ESPECIALLY dressage, very shameful, when so many don't know much about it or only go by some myths and bad training.:no:

On the other hand, it is also shameful the way so many pick on the parellites, when it is obvious they don't know any but some myths about what they are all about, are assuming from websites, poor training and hearsay about what they really do and what they accomplish.:no:

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There is good and bad in all we do.;)

STF
Oct. 16, 2007, 10:11 PM
Honestly, I dont think most of us give the Parelliloons a second thought unless they are talking negative about dressage. We surely dont dwell on them or lose sleep over them. But, due to the negative and silly responses these clowns give to others, it does seem to kinda light a fire under some rears. And rightly so......

They just need to keep teaching their tricks and leave our sport and our type of horses alone..... simple!

Bluey
Oct. 16, 2007, 10:13 PM
And this is a man who jumps foals over fences.....
Shall we talk about sad again.

Our summer mare's pasture had large canyons.
We turned the pairs out once the mare was thru foal heat, so about three weeks old.
The horses jumped larger obstacles than that there, going up the caprock to graze on the plains in the mornings and galloping back down into the canyons for water at noon.
We never had one hurt, either and they stayed very sound into old age.

STF
Oct. 16, 2007, 10:18 PM
We breed...... needless to say, dressage and jumpers, Bluey. Horses bred for the sport, etc. And yes, our foals do jump around by themself as well. Even if I turn them out in the arena area, they have been known to jump some of the stuff that was low and in their way. But...... I would NEVER force it upon them or their minds.

Bluey
Oct. 16, 2007, 10:25 PM
We breed...... needless to say, dressage and jumpers, Bluey. Horses bred for the sport, etc. And yes, our foals do jump around by themself as well. Even if I turn them out in the arena area, they have been known to jump some of the stuff that was low and in their way. But...... I would NEVER force it upon them or their minds.

Our horses were TB and AQHA and went to race well, some sold to Virginia for fox hunters and they asked for more.

Many foals are born and raised in small pens in the far West, where there is no turn out and do fine also, with regular work and exercise given by the handlers.

May not be ideal, but is it really harmful? I don't know enough to say...

MassageLady
Oct. 17, 2007, 01:21 AM
THATS WHAT MY POINT IS!!!!!

I could give a rats ass if LP or PP chase around their horses naked with carrot sticks, teach the horses to sit, paw for food or crap in a toliet........ but leave our sport alone and for gawds sake, STOP misrepresenting it to the worst degree.
:yes:

A Horse of Course
Oct. 17, 2007, 01:38 AM
As far as the jumping goes, the pic that STF posted made me cringe because of how BIG that log is. That foal is not jumping that, how can he?? You can tell by the picture that he is starting to scramble his hind end over it...that is not jumping.

Yes, I would call that harmful, and selfish to ask that of a foal.

equi-librium
Oct. 17, 2007, 09:49 AM
the biggest problem ihave its their variations of "the truth" and the hypocriticalness of PP and LP.... one minute its one thing, and the next is something totally differnt.. whatever will make them the most $$... :rolleyes:


bottom line... dont bash dressage on national TV and then feel like your going to embraced by those of us who actually KNOW what dressage IS..

MassageLady
Oct. 17, 2007, 10:04 AM
Funny thing is, is that the 'real' trainers I know have never even heard of PP! :lol: The ones at the track, the true trainers that work 14hr days-they don't have time...so I wonder how WAZ heard about them? Did they contact him?:yes: I need to be a fly on the wall.:lol:

Ja Da Dee
Oct. 17, 2007, 11:47 AM
Funny thing is, is that the 'real' trainers I know have never even heard of PP! :lol: The ones at the track, the true trainers that work 14hr days-they don't have time...so I wonder how WAZ heard about them? Did they contact him?:yes: I need to be a fly on the wall.:lol:


Didn't they run across him at a horse expo or something similar a few years ago?

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 17, 2007, 01:09 PM
Yes, I am an evil witch who does dressage with my horse.

So. As a result, he is less crooked, more balanced, lighter on his front end, stronger in his hind end, more supple through his body, more relaxed in his mind, more willing a partner.

As a result, I am also less crooked, more balanced, stronger through my core, lighter with my aids, more supple in my body, more relaxed, and a very willing partner.

But I can actually demonstrate this in real life, as proof. Wonder how many Parelli-ites can say the same?

Edited to add: Although I greatly admire the masters, I don't call WAZ Walter. I don't know him personally. I don't call Olivera Nuno because I read some of his books. (I try not to refer directly to Alois Podhasky because I have trouble with spelling and pronounciation, my bad!).

But then I wouldn't call Parelli Pat...I have other names for him. :D

STF
Oct. 17, 2007, 01:37 PM
So. As a result, he is less crooked, more balanced, lighter on his front end, stronger in his hind end, more supple through his body, more relaxed in his mind, more willing a partner.

As a result, I am also less crooked, more balanced, stronger through my core, lighter with my aids, more supple in my body, more relaxed, and a very willing partner.


Your soooooo going to horsey hell for your sins!

Sandy M
Oct. 17, 2007, 01:57 PM
I agree with you. It is shameful the way the PP bunch picks on most any horse discipline, ESPECIALLY dressage, very shameful, when so many don't know much about it or only go by some myths and bad training.:no:

On the other hand, it is also shameful the way so many pick on the parellites, when it is obvious they don't know any but some myths about what they are all about, are assuming from websites, poor training and hearsay about what they really do and what they accomplish.:no:

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There is good and bad in all we do.;)


I have yet to attend or participate in a dressage clinic/lesson/demonstration, etc. where ANY dressage clinician begins the program by dissing Parelli and/or NH. Parelli is not even mentioned. But the Pepperonis (love that!) go out of their way to dis dressage. Yup, there is "bad dressage" in this world. There's also bad "NH." But except when the Pepperonis yet again make some comment about the evils of dressage, or some PP proponent waxes lyrical about the wonders of PP's program (which is only old news repackaged) and how much better it is than "tight rein-no brain" dressage (and of course, ALL dressage rider are horrible), most dressage people don't even THINK about Parelli. You poke the dog (dressage community) with a stick, he's gonna react, but if you leave him alone, he's probably not going to attack you.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 17, 2007, 02:03 PM
Your soooooo going to horsey hell for your sins!

Hope y'all be joining me there! :D

fourhorses
Oct. 17, 2007, 02:15 PM
Who'll bring the roasting wienies?

Er...perhaps that should be pepperoni sticks?

Flippancy aside, I like the idea of approaching one's training a horse as a "game", as I think that philosophy may have a lot of merit to it. However, some of PP's "games" are borderline silly if not outright dangerous to me, and I don't approve of the marketing of such things to novice horsepeople along with the insinuation that they can "do it themselves". Learning proper horsemanship is not a handyman weekend project, much like laying the foundation of one's home. I find it highly irresponsible and egotistical to presume such -- both on the part of the learner and (moreso) on the part of the teacher, whose intentions become questionable if that is what they are selling along with their teaching.
Add to that PP and LP's rather abrasively rude and thoughtless comments and generally classless demeanors (at least this is what I have observed, and observed many who follow their school of thought emulating), and it is a total turn off for me (their attitudes are completely counterproductive, unhorsemanlike, and so very unnecessary); the O'Connors lost a bit of shine to my eyes with their association with the Parelli's, so too, I'm afraid, has Mr. Zettl. It is a sad truism that you are judged by the company you keep.

Bluey
Oct. 17, 2007, 02:46 PM
Who'll bring the roasting wienies?

Er...perhaps that should be pepperoni sticks?

Flippancy aside, I like the idea of approaching one's training a horse as a "game", as I think that philosophy may have a lot of merit to it. However, some of PP's "games" are borderline silly if not outright dangerous to me, and I don't approve of the marketing of such things to novice horsepeople along with the insinuation that they can "do it themselves". Learning proper horsemanship is not a handyman weekend project, much like laying the foundation of one's home. I find it highly irresponsible and egotistical to presume such -- both on the part of the learner and (moreso) on the part of the teacher, whose intentions become questionable if that is what they are selling along with their teaching.
Add to that PP and LP's rather abrasively rude and thoughtless comments and generally classless demeanors (at least this is what I have observed, and observed many who follow their school of thought emulating), and it is a total turn off for me (their attitudes are completely counterproductive, unhorsemanlike, and so very unnecessary); the O'Connors lost a bit of shine to my eyes with their association with the Parelli's, so too, I'm afraid, has Mr. Zettl. It is a sad truism that you are judged by the company you keep.

I agree with all that, except that we need to have "class" to be part of the horse industry.:lol:

Kyzteke
Oct. 17, 2007, 02:53 PM
And this is a man who jumps foals over fences.....
Shall we talk about sad again.

Once again, taken out of context. I have that tape, and the foal is NOT "jumping". It's more like a little hop. The foal is barely out of a quick walk. My foals have done the same thing over objects (like logs) in the field. STF -- your foals avoid all obstacles out in the pasture? What a shame...how are they going to learn where to put their feet?

Wild horses will choose the easiest way, but if the easiest way is over a log, the foal will hop (or jump) over it.

I have that tape, incidentally (the only tape of PP I've actually bought) and he says right on it -- do NOT try this with a foal (meaning anything he does) unless you have worked with SEVERAL HUNDRED OTHER HORSES first.

What I have learned from this thread is how 90% of the people out there close their mind when their passions take over. It really is amazing. Instead of being able to remain dispassionate and saying..."Hmmm, I can take THIS from this guy, and THAT from this other guy and put them in my bag of tricks", they start frothing at the mouth and throw out the whole deal just because they don't like a personality.

Guys -- the personality is not the message or the method. I think it's hysterical when people will accept something totally from Ray Hunt or Clint Anderson but totally reject PP. Folks -- it's all basically the same thing! Especially CA -- he's pretty much ditto a total copy of PP (with his "handy stick,"), except he's not as grating or verbose.

You know, I personally care very little for Anky. I don't even think she's that good a rider -- in that her "type" of riding is not what I would aspire to. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't attend one of her clinics (as an auditor)...because I bet you anything there would be SOMETHING I could take home and use to become a better horsemen.

But I guess this thread is a perfect example of human nature -- the feelings will override the brain most of the time.

caffeinated
Oct. 17, 2007, 02:57 PM
I have that tape, incidentally (the only tape of PP I've actually bought) and he says right on it -- do NOT try this with a foal (meaning anything he does) unless you have worked with SEVERAL HUNDRED OTHER HORSES first.

So here's a question- if he doesn't want people without experience to do things like that- why does he show it?

Why doesn't he wait, and keep that stuff on the "super advanced tape for people who have worked with hundreds of horses" video?

oops, just me not thinking before I post again... will go back to my corner now, promise!

Bluey
Oct. 17, 2007, 03:06 PM
---"But I guess this thread is a perfect example of human nature -- the feelings will override the brain most of the time."---

That is the way brains are made. Higher functions don't work well without emotions to modulate.
Cut feelings out of the loop and you get---computers, AI, artificial intelligence.;)

I will tell you why I follow PP and any other that wants to show me how they teach, because I love to learn teaching methods, good, bad and indifferent.
I learned to be a riding instructor within a structured program, also learning to be adaptable.
Still, I learned very much also from a top PP instructor, that would have been an excellent teacher no matter what or where he had been teaching.
That is also why I got the WZ tapes and some others, to see HOW they teach and learn as much from that as from WHAT they teach.

I also wonder why Connors and WZ would have signed up with the PP system and more important, why they would continue after seeing, as all of us can, the good and the not so good.

I would give them the benefit of the doubt, that we just don't know the whole story, so can't even guess right.:confused:

fourhorses
Oct. 17, 2007, 03:09 PM
Oh, on the contrary -- how one acts is often the way one's students will also act -- I don't find the P's to be very good role models at all. And I have met some of their "been to the ranch" students who are good (or unfortunate) examples of just this very thing> which, by the by, I have found that truly "classy" behavior is something lacking in the horse world, even though the old masters promoted horsemanship as a way towards refining one's character; perhaps just another irony.
And I find purposely jumping a young foal like that completely classless, irresponsible, and quite simply stupid...I don't care how much "experience" a person has; if one was truly experienced they should know better than to do such a stunt (yes, stunt -- Mr. Parelli has an issue with his ego, moreso than many, hence the stunts and the comments, imho -- this is counterproductive to good horsemanship and truly classy behavior; he needs to stop and think about it for a bit, imho; maybe if he would come to grips with that I might be more willing to listen to what he has to say).

And I really don't care for Mr. Anderson much either -- many of the reining horse people I know are shaking their heads in disbelief that we "english" folks can diss Anky for rollkur and yet speak highly of CA -- have you seen how his horses work? So I resist being lumped into the camp of "love C and hate P, even though they're the same " -- actually, in many ways they are, and while not all wrong/bad, neither is my cup of tea.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 17, 2007, 03:22 PM
Kyzteke - please don't misunderstand me. It's not just the personality I object to. It's also his message. As I have said, ain't nuthin there that hasn't been done better, more elegantly, more kindly, more eloquently than by the classical masters. And, of course, they did it first.

MistyBlue
Oct. 17, 2007, 03:29 PM
What I have learned from this thread is how 90% of the people out there close their mind when their passions take over. It really is amazing.

It truly is amazing.
Kind of like when the same thing is posted twice trying to figure out why PP is marketing one way and his followers are saying another thing...and still those posts are ignored.


do NOT try this with a foal (meaning anything he does) unless you have worked with SEVERAL HUNDRED OTHER HORSES first.

If this mentality to the PP's way of marketing is true...then why is it only available to the public after they've paid for the tapes and had to watch them? Why is it not made known by those thinking of buying the tapes in the first place with hopes of breaking in their own foals?

Also if the PPs are not into just selling anything they can...and if the PPs are mainly interested in the safety of the people and the horses...then why would any newbie person who's heard of the PPs find these two testimonials *without any warnings not to try this yourself printed anywhere near them* on their website:
(forgive please for being redundant posting this repeatedly...but am hoping to finally get some sort of answer since it truly befuddles me to see them marketing one thing while all their followers vehemently protest that this isn't what the PPs really mean)

I bought Max 6 years ago at an auction – he was my first horse. He cost $800.00 and the bidding was between me and the slaughter house man. I bought him against everyone’s advice but I just couldn’t let him go. It took 2 hours to load him on the trailer, we could barely lead him to it, he was pulling and lunging trying to get away from us. Once we got him to the barn, he tried to knock down a gate and cut his leg badly. He was extremely dominant and would just run right over people. Under saddle he was unstoppable and uncontrollable, he would bolt sideways and run into other horses and their riders. He would throw himself against gates and try to break through them. He would not go backwards or sideways. I tried using different trainers, methods, whips, bits and all the conventional stuff but he still was an unsafe horse. Then I went to a Parelli tour stop and both our lives changed. We have been following the program for 2 years and are almost through Level 2. I can say “we” now because Max and I are a team, with a strong partnership. I ride him bareback with just a halter or hackamore. Leading is no longer a problem because he follows me everywhere.
And:

"Ten months ago I bought a horse - my first. I'm quite green and she's a bit green (6 years old at the time) which they tell me is a bad combo. I live in a small town with very few instructors so after I bought Tia and was waiting for the vet check, it hit me - what am I going to do with this horse! Yeah I can take a lesson once a week (if the one instructor has room) but what do I do with her the rest of the time!
I had heard of Parelli and knew it was Natural Horsemanship, which sounded good to me, but I also knew they had a home study program! I ordered the Level 1 and it arrived at the same time as my horse. I'm now on to Level 2 and am so grateful I have some way of building a relationship with this beautiful creature on my own. Thank you for putting out these great packages!"

And why after newbies read these testimonials...and start assuming that they too can take any dangerous acting horse and without any equine knowledge themselves train it by themselves to be safe...they go to the products page to read this about the first tape needed to start Parelli:

Level 1 Home Study Program
Level 1 is where true "horse savvy" begins. It creates a positive balance of trust and respect, eliminating many common problems and safety issues people encounter with their horses.

Sounds like anybody with working grey matter in their heads but without any knowledge of horses would read this stuff and get this out of it:
Anyone without any prior knowledge of horses at all can take any horse of any type...dangerous or green or young...and by buying these products they can easily and swiftly end up with a well behaved, sfe and sane riding horse. And all without the help of any trainer of any type around because as testified and as this website has printed....trainers do not help and the horse will remain unsafe. The way to get a safe and sane horse is to not use trainers but to buy these level one tapes. :rolleyes:

As stated ad nauseum before...this is the issue myself and many others have with PPs marketing schemes. Not with the actual methods...but how the methods are marketed.
Seriously...next local auction please make a visit to CT. I'll personally drive you around to these auctions and you can see the PP tape-trained drop outs there...I can also drive you to some homes around here with PP tape drop outs in the backyards, still waiting to be halter broke...and I can drive you to a bunch of area barns where the trainers commonly have PP tape-trained drop outs there to be "fixed" so their owners (who believed the crap marketing on the websites because they didn't know any better) can safely handle their own horses. :no:

Coreene
Oct. 17, 2007, 03:32 PM
Proof, over and over again, that PT Barnum was right.

MistyBlue
Oct. 17, 2007, 03:34 PM
Too true Coreene. :no: But instead with the PP Barnums...horses usually end up the worse for this type of marketing. :sigh:

Touchstone Farm
Oct. 17, 2007, 10:49 PM
I agree with you. It is shameful the way the PP bunch picks on most any horse discipline, ESPECIALLY dressage, very shameful, when so many don't know much about it or only go by some myths and bad training.:no:

On the other hand, it is also shameful the way so many pick on the parellites, when it is obvious they don't know any but some myths about what they are all about, are assuming from websites, poor training and hearsay about what they really do and what they accomplish.:no:

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. There is good and bad in all we do.;)

That's what I object to. I honestly could not care less what the Ps do or don't do, sell or mark up 500%... If that's what people want to spend their hard-earned money on, well, so be it. People spend money on mufflers that make their cars or trucks sound "tough," they buy food that isn't good for them, etc. etc. BUT...when you hear the Ps rant about how bad dressage is and their students rant about how mean and unfair bits are to a horse (yet they ride the horse around waving carrot sticks at the side of their heads to make them turn, etc. etc.), it gets a bit annoying.

I can see the purpose of helping people learn how to handle horses. Many people didn't grow up around animals and truely don't understand animal body language and behavior, so I do think there is a need for this basic knowledge. BUT...if the Ps were so confident in their program, why the need to bash or have their students bash another discipline? I'm sure they have plenty of people to market to without having to resort to that tactic.

Much as I admire the O'Connors and WAZ, I must say when I heard they were working with them (and some of the things that eventing friends of mine were "surprised" to see at the O'Connors during that P period, and the bashing of dressage, yet the association with WAZ), it disappointed me. But hey, people on a pedastal...and all that.... To each his own, I guess!

MassageLady
Oct. 18, 2007, 01:31 AM
I also wonder why Connors and WZ would have signed up with the PP system and more important, why they would continue after seeing, as all of us can, the good and the not so good.
My question is, if the PP program is so wonderful, why aren't they studying it? Why haven't they done the levels? There are only 2 trainers on their site (out of about 8)that they promote, that are Level 3. One is Karen Rohlf, I forget the other ones name.

dalpal
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:10 AM
Well, watched the second segment of the Austraila show last night. OMG, I had to wipe the drool off the side of my mouth, it was a real yawner.

But alas, I was awaken to the soud of Patti, once again dissing dressage.....dancing like Shirley Temple, singing the Lollipop song.....then says "Ever see a dressage horse doing this"...lowers his voice singing the Good Ship Lollipop, lowers his head, pretends to do piaffe (and a bad one at that) and then at the end says...(pretending to be the horse) "I hate this lollipop ship" His attempt at humor, making ship sound similar to shi$.

Now, if anyone watched this show last night, especially those who are Parelli fans.....I must ask....what do you learn from these shows? All he does is walk around with ropes on the horse, lunge the horse, has the horse follow him...BUT, doesn't explain how to do it....instead, he's too busy talking about himself, his wife Linda and how he wants to teach everyone how to treat their horse with politeness. Well, Patti, care to explain what you are doing? All I see if a jabbering man who jumps from one subject to the next and nothing about what he is actually doing in that moment. I've truly never seen anyone so full of themselves.

I am also not a Clinton Anderson fan...BUT at least, he is talking about horse training....not himself.

Watch Chris Cox....there's a cowboy who is good at explaining what he is doing and why. Chris Cox doesn't spend the hour telling his viewers how wonderful he is and how he met so and so and "let's give a hand to my wife for all her hard work over the years." He is focused on the show topic.


Watch Tommy Garland....there's a trainer who is actually trying to educate people through his show on different horse topics...he does everything on that show...foal birthing (that one was fun to watch), horse care, riding. Even though, most of his information is geared towards beginners, it is still informative and fun to watch....I never hear him going on and on about himself during the program....and this is a man who has done quite well for himself in the arabian horse world.

dalpal
Oct. 18, 2007, 03:20 AM
Oh and forgot to ask...

Keep an Open Mind????????????

Patti doesn't have an open mind towards dressage....why should I have an open mind towards the Parelli program???

There's no doubt that there are bad dressage riders/training...but there's bad NH as well....there are many people out there who buy his tapes and fail miserably attempting to recreate what they are watching on a dvd.

perhaps he has only witnessed his wife riding dressage and that turned him off to it????? Don't know, but if he read up on the prinipals of dressage, perhaps he would realize that he is ignorant about the discipline.

LMH
Oct. 18, 2007, 06:37 AM
My question is, if the PP program is so wonderful, why aren't they studying it? Why haven't they done the levels? There are only 2 trainers on their site (out of about 8)that they promote, that are Level 3. One is Karen Rohlf, I forget the other ones name.

My understanding is the O'Conners went through Level 2

JustMe111
Oct. 18, 2007, 07:14 AM
How come Pat and Linda take such a beating over dissing Dressage when your very own WAZ says they are accurate in their assessments of the problems with it?WAZ has LONG spoken on the problems he sees all too often in the world of dressage.

Here's his words from an interview printed in a magazine that you can find on HIS website.

You were a highly successful competitor yourself for
many years. What are some of the changes you have
seen over the past decades in the world of dressage?“I see now that dressage riders are having too strong of
aids and riding their horses too much behind the vertical.

They are over bending their horses and the horses are being
forced. This started changing in the last 10 to 15 years. When
you use strong correction, strong aids and over bend the
horse, he gets very frightened and starts resisting. As soon as
the horse gets frightened, he will make more mistakes.
“We are hand-oriented, so we have to always remind
ourselves to be soft and gentle with our hands. The horse’s
mouth is his most sensitive spot. When we hold a horse
tight in the front (end), we shut the door for him from
fleeing when something happens. It’s no wonder the horse
gets frightened because he sees no room to get away. Using
force to train a horse is the wrong way and does not have
anything to do with the harmony between horse and rider.
Force enslaves the horses.

“The way to avoid this is gentleness. I was taught that we
should build the partnership between horse and rider based
on respect and kindness to the horse. If you teach with kindness
and soft aids, every horse can do dressage at some level.”

You’ve noted that too many riders today are looking
for “quick success” with their horses. What do you
think is wrong with this trend?
“We are very demanding of our horses. Now it often
seems that the horse is only a slave and the rider is the
master. I see too much force used in training and a desire
for quick success. I would like to warn those who would
sacrifice the horse in trying to achieve quick success not to
be blinded by the success of a few who use this method of
training. It is a violation of our horses, whose well-being
should be our first responsibility.
“I’ve seen such beautiful horses being made to look ugly
and ‘tight’ because of how they are being ridden. It comes
from trying to get quick success. I’m a little bit scared when
I go to shows and see this fighting between horse and rider
in the warm-up ring.”

You often say that we should “let horses be
horses.” What do you mean by this?“We keep these beautiful animals in unnatural ways. Most
horses are kept in stall or paddock like a prisoner. We have to
be kind to them and let them ‘be a horse.’ Every horse needs
time every day to get loose and have freedom and play.
“As soon as we put a saddle and rider on the horse, the
horse gets out of rhythm and balance. Most riders put a
horse in a frame right away to control his temperament.

We are making horses into dressage or jumping machines.
Too many riders don’t trust themselves or the horse to just
let them be a horse.”

Now if you can explain to me,... why he felt it neccessary to speak on it,..try to get rules changed in the dressage world and says it is something he has seen more in the last 10 to 15 years how that doesn't solidify what Pat and Linda say about the discipline,....since WAZ IS the expert??

If it isn't the norm? Why is he saying it is a growing trend in the showring?

:confused:

Just trying to understand since WAZ'S words back up what the Parelli's have been syang all along,..and yes,..if people are doing what WAZ is saying,.it IS bad for the horse.

dalpal
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:04 AM
How come Pat and Linda take such a beating over dissing Dressage when your very own WAZ says they are accurate in their assessments of the problems with it?WAZ has LONG spoken on the problems he sees all too often in the world of dressage.

Here's his words from an interview printed in a magazine that you can find on HIS website.

You were a highly successful competitor yourself for
many years. What are some of the changes you have
seen over the past decades in the world of dressage?“I see now that dressage riders are having too strong of
aids and riding their horses too much behind the vertical.

They are over bending their horses and the horses are being
forced. This started changing in the last 10 to 15 years. When
you use strong correction, strong aids and over bend the
horse, he gets very frightened and starts resisting. As soon as
the horse gets frightened, he will make more mistakes.
“We are hand-oriented, so we have to always remind
ourselves to be soft and gentle with our hands. The horse’s
mouth is his most sensitive spot. When we hold a horse
tight in the front (end), we shut the door for him from
fleeing when something happens. It’s no wonder the horse
gets frightened because he sees no room to get away. Using
force to train a horse is the wrong way and does not have
anything to do with the harmony between horse and rider.
Force enslaves the horses.

“The way to avoid this is gentleness. I was taught that we
should build the partnership between horse and rider based
on respect and kindness to the horse. If you teach with kindness
and soft aids, every horse can do dressage at some level.”

You’ve noted that too many riders today are looking
for “quick success” with their horses. What do you
think is wrong with this trend?
“We are very demanding of our horses. Now it often
seems that the horse is only a slave and the rider is the
master. I see too much force used in training and a desire
for quick success. I would like to warn those who would
sacrifice the horse in trying to achieve quick success not to
be blinded by the success of a few who use this method of
training. It is a violation of our horses, whose well-being
should be our first responsibility.
“I’ve seen such beautiful horses being made to look ugly
and ‘tight’ because of how they are being ridden. It comes
from trying to get quick success. I’m a little bit scared when
I go to shows and see this fighting between horse and rider
in the warm-up ring.”

You often say that we should “let horses be
horses.” What do you mean by this?“We keep these beautiful animals in unnatural ways. Most
horses are kept in stall or paddock like a prisoner. We have to
be kind to them and let them ‘be a horse.’ Every horse needs
time every day to get loose and have freedom and play.
“As soon as we put a saddle and rider on the horse, the
horse gets out of rhythm and balance. Most riders put a
horse in a frame right away to control his temperament.

We are making horses into dressage or jumping machines.
Too many riders don’t trust themselves or the horse to just
let them be a horse.”

Now if you can explain to me,... why he felt it neccessary to speak on it,..try to get rules changed in the dressage world and says it is something he has seen more in the last 10 to 15 years how that doesn't solidify what Pat and Linda say about the discipline,....since WAZ IS the expert??

If it isn't the norm? Why is he saying it is a growing trend in the showring?

:confused:

Just trying to understand since WAZ'S words back up what the Parelli's have been syang all along,..and yes,..if people are doing what WAZ is saying,.it IS bad for the horse.


You don't see WAZ going on TV and bashing dressage or any other discipline.

Last time I checked, Patti hasn't competed in dressage and apparently his wife didn't go too far either....so where is his wonderful knowledage coming from?

WAZ has worked with many riders and UNDERSTANDS what dressage SHOULD BE....Patti, on the other hand, just likes bashing it to make himself look more knowledagable......give me a break, so every single horse in the dressage ring is miserable doing Piaffe and Passage...highly doubt it.

Ja Da Dee
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:22 AM
Flippancy aside, I like the idea of approaching one's training a horse as a "game", as I think that philosophy may have a lot of merit to it.


Well, last night my dressage trainer who is Dutch told me again to play with my horse, play with the contact, play with the forward and collection. He told me to "make it fun!". I doubt he's spent any time researching the P's and their games. Training should be fun for the horse, for the rider, and hopefully for the judges and trainers who have to watch it. Having fun and treating training like a game is not anything new.

Bluey
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:23 AM
Well, watched the second segment of the Austraila show last night. OMG, I had to wipe the drool off the side of my mouth, it was a real yawner.

But alas, I was awaken to the soud of Patti, once again dissing dressage.....dancing like Shirley Temple, singing the Lollipop song.....then says "Ever see a dressage horse doing this"...lowers his voice singing the Good Ship Lollipop, lowers his head, pretends to do piaffe (and a bad one at that) and then at the end says...(pretending to be the horse) "I hate this lollipop ship" His attempt at humor, making ship sound similar to shi$.

Now, if anyone watched this show last night, especially those who are Parelli fans.....I must ask....what do you learn from these shows? All he does is walk around with ropes on the horse, lunge the horse, has the horse follow him...BUT, doesn't explain how to do it....instead, he's too busy talking about himself, his wife Linda and how he wants to teach everyone how to treat their horse with politeness. Well, Patti, care to explain what you are doing? All I see if a jabbering man who jumps from one subject to the next and nothing about what he is actually doing in that moment. I've truly never seen anyone so full of themselves.

I am also not a Clinton Anderson fan...BUT at least, he is talking about horse training....not himself.

Watch Chris Cox....there's a cowboy who is good at explaining what he is doing and why. Chris Cox doesn't spend the hour telling his viewers how wonderful he is and how he met so and so and "let's give a hand to my wife for all her hard work over the years." He is focused on the show topic.


Watch Tommy Garland....there's a trainer who is actually trying to educate people through his show on different horse topics...he does everything on that show...foal birthing (that one was fun to watch), horse care, riding. Even though, most of his information is geared towards beginners, it is still informative and fun to watch....I never hear him going on and on about himself during the program....and this is a man who has done quite well for himself in the arabian horse world.

No, didn't watch the show last night, he is hard to take, is he.
Why did you, if it is that offensive to you?;)

You need to remember that PP doesn't do clinics, what he does are demonstrations, showing off what they do, not teaching how they do it.

If you watch it expecting a CA or Chris Cox clinic, you of course would be disapointed.:yes:

Again, misunderstandings abound on both sides, the truth is probably not as bad and the good is never perfect.:confused:

Ja Da Dee
Oct. 18, 2007, 08:29 AM
My question is, if the PP program is so wonderful, why aren't they studying it? Why haven't they done the levels? There are only 2 trainers on their site (out of about 8)that they promote, that are Level 3. One is Karen Rohlf, I forget the other ones name.

Go to the O'Connors site, and you won't see the P's listed anywhere there either.

dalpal
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:07 AM
No, didn't watch the show last night, he is hard to take, is he.
Why did you, if it is that offensive to you?;)

You need to remember that PP doesn't do clinics, what he does are demonstrations, showing off what they do, not teaching how they do it.

If you watch it expecting a CA or Chris Cox clinic, you of course would be disapointed.:yes:

Again, misunderstandings abound on both sides, the truth is probably not as bad and the good is never perfect.:confused:


Well, I think I stated earlier in the thread that I watch the show for entertainment value....waiting for Patti's diarreha of the mouth.:lol:

If you are going to do a demonstration, then how about keeping it to something you can actually do....never seen a demonstration before where one learns about how a person met his wife, or how his wife wrote everything down, etc.

I watch all the shows on RFD....but Patti's is the worst....sorry....except for the music, I do give him two thumbs up for his theme music and the tour theme music..LOL!

STF
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:10 AM
But alas, I was awaken to the soud of Patti, once again dissing dressage.....dancing like Shirley Temple, singing the Lollipop song.....then says "Ever see a dressage horse doing this"...lowers his voice singing the Good Ship Lollipop, lowers his head, pretends to do piaffe (and a bad one at that) and then at the end says...(pretending to be the horse) "I hate this lollipop ship" His attempt at humor, making ship sound similar to shi$.

WAZ should be proud!!! It blow my mind he would associate with these people who belittle the sport he has dedicated his life to. All, I can think is, the money must be good, real good or he is bored with life.

STF
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:12 AM
I am also not a Clinton Anderson fan...BUT at least, he is talking about horse training....not himself.



But........ at least HE is nice to look at (mostly his rearend) and does not go around bashing other industries on national TV.

MassageLady
Oct. 18, 2007, 10:02 AM
My understanding is the O'Conners went through Level 2
Well...it's not on their site! I tried to find it again-just stumbled on it before, that site is so hard to find anything on it's ridiculous!:yes:
As far as comparing what WAZ has said to what Parelli has said-do you know the difference in 'bashing' and 'constructive criticism'?? Apparently not.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 18, 2007, 10:20 AM
Uh oh. My trainer has started having my horse try piaffe in hand, and then with me in the saddle.

Not because we are ready to show at that level. But to get us both to understand the engagement, the balance, the spring from the hind end...so many things.

And the feel - amazing. In our last lesson, at a walk, we did voltes, and I was able to capture that same feel of my horse lifting me up and springing to the next step.

But then, she has me piaffe on the ground as well.

And as I stated earlier, all of this had made my horse more relaxed, more balanced, stronger. And it's done the same for me.

Oh no. We are surely going to horsey hell in the fastest freight train. Or maybe a supersonic missle.

STF
Oct. 18, 2007, 10:31 AM
Tight rein, no brain.... tight rein, now brain.........

Your still going to horsey hell!

NoDQhere
Oct. 18, 2007, 10:56 AM
We watched the Pepperoni show last night too. Honestly trying to remain "open-minded". Wow, is that guy disillusional or what???? I had to laugh when he did his piaffe. With that gut, I'm thinking he ain't doing much dress-:lol:age. Or anything else, for that matter.

Seriously, though, I just want to see P or L "do" a "real" Dressage test at 4th level or higher. They are such experts, it really shouldn't be a problem for them, should it? If they can do that, then I guess we "dressage people" would "have" to take them more seriously.

"Natural Horsemanship" has always been here. It's been used by "good" trainers for thousands of years all over the world. It was the "American" way of bronco busting that "opened" the door for the successful marketing of "a kinder, softer way". Classical training has always put the welfare of the horse first and it's been around far longer than "Natural Horsemanship".

If you invest as much time in classical training as you need to invest in natuaral horsemanship, you will actually have a horse you can ride.

Read the Klimke's book, "Basic Training Of The Young Horse". Of course the "kicker" with Dressage (or Jumping/Hunters/Eventing) is that you "DO" need to invest some time in learning to ride :eek:

MassageLady
Oct. 18, 2007, 11:54 AM
Tight rein, no brain.... tight rein, now brain.......
How about 'tight rein-know brain'?? I think that says it all!:yes: IN order to connect with your horse, you have to have 'contact'...which, I'm assuming is what they call 'tight rein'.:lol:


f you invest as much time in classical training as you need to invest in natuaral horsemanship, you will actually have a horse you can ride
REALLY???? Imagine that!!:lol: You are supposed to 'ride' your horse??:eek:

equusrocks
Oct. 18, 2007, 12:47 PM
AMEN. In my experience, NH horses eventually l get that "thousand yard stare." Like "are we done yet?" :no:


:lol: One of my friends calls that the "Eight Day Stare"

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 18, 2007, 01:21 PM
:lol: One of my friends calls that the "Eight Day Stare"

Yup. I like it! You know exactly what it means when you hear it. ;)

STF
Oct. 18, 2007, 02:58 PM
How about 'tight rein-know brain'?? I think that says it all!:yes: IN order to connect with your horse, you have to have 'contact'...which, I'm assuming is what they call 'tight rein'.:lol:


REALLY???? Imagine that!!:lol: You are supposed to 'ride' your horse??:eek:

I thought the same thing. It actually takes RIDING TALENT to ride with contact correctly........ to keep a horse soft, supple and relaxed..... ummmmmmmm, the which are ummmmm, what we "No Brain Lollipop Riders" call "BASICS" to ummm, this thing called Dressage that they seem to know so much about.:dead:

Hey, at least they are entertaining and make us laugh, well.......... kinda!

MassageLady
Oct. 18, 2007, 09:19 PM
As another poster said--put your money where your mouth is and compete!:lol:

NoDQhere
Oct. 20, 2007, 10:54 AM
Have you checked out the "New Parelli Bit"?? :eek: Good grief. Talk about severe. I don't see anything "polite" about a combination gag, leverage, broken mouthpiece, rawhide over the nose. Oh wait, the name is polite. :no:

Do the Pepperonis even know that only a plain snaffle is allowed in Dressage up to 3rd level and then only a simple double bridle?? Oh yeah, us Dressage folks are "BAD" :confused:

Bluey
Oct. 20, 2007, 12:29 PM
I have not seen that bit, so can't tell, but will get on my soap box and say that any broken mouth bit with leverage is not going to help any horse learn, period.
They learn despite of such bits.

Don't take my word for it, hold one in your hand, the bridle with the other hand, any broken bit with shanks, as if your hand is a horse's mouth.

Have someone from behind you try to guide you with the reins and tell me what you can tell they want, the way the shanks work all over, independently of each part of the mouth piece and the other shank.
Try to figure what the signals are, when they are every second different and every one different from each other and don't repeat the same pattern, so you can respond to the same signals in a way you know you are being rewarded.

Then hold a plain snaffle, with a direct rein to the hand from the mouthpiece, no leverage and see how easy it is to understand every little tug.

Then add an active nose piece, like a hackamore type and gag action and we wonder why horses act up when we keep demanding they "obey", but they can't tell what we want?

As long as we leave a horse's mouth alone, no contact, anything will work.
When we take hold of the reins and have contact, we better have something that will hold that contact steady, not a million wiggly things on a horse's mouth and head.

I was shocked the first time I saw one such curb with snaffle mouth and wondered how it worked, tried and decided it didn't work when trying it any better than it made sense when looking at it.
That a good 90% of western bits seem to be made like that makes me think that surely trainers think it works fine, until I see them in action.
Then I can see that yes, they don't really work too well, for what I can see, watching their horses being ridden around.:(

Since I seem to be the lone voice about this out there, maybe I am wrong, but if so, show me where, no one has yet.:confused:

BumbleBee
Oct. 20, 2007, 01:28 PM
I have not seen that bit, so can't tell, but will get on my soap box and say that any broken mouth bit with leverage is not going to help any horse learn, period.
They learn despite of such bits.

.......
That a good 90% of western bits seem to be made like that makes me think that surely trainers think it works fine, until I see them in action.
Then I can see that yes, they don't really work too well, for what I can see, watching their horses being ridden around.:(

Since I seem to be the lone voice about this out there, maybe I am wrong, but if so, show me where, no one has yet.:confused:


The proper way to put a horse into a curb is the same way it's done in upper level dressage.

Western trained horses are taught in a snaffle first then when the understand outside rein/collection/half-halts they graduate to a curb where the cues are reduced even further. I ride at the same time most days as a western trainer so I talk to her a lot about these things.

Once a horse is in a curb it shouldn't require much "talk" from the bit at all. Leg, seat, and an occasional whisper from the bit.

The fact that the bit is used incorrectly by most doesn't mean it is inherently a bad tool. Ignorance is everywhere.

This is the opposite of the pepperonis because in their case the TOOL is bad despite the fact that a few seem to make it work.

Actually that isn't true either, the problem is that they market it to the beginners who are not "horsy literate" enough to actually get the results the want. Instead they get stuck playing games as if that is the total goal.

I am sure if the p's focus wasn’t on $$ they could have marketed their system to the no longer green horse person with better results/application and we wouldn't all hate the cheesey fraud that is pp.

MassageLady
Oct. 20, 2007, 01:32 PM
I cannot find the bit you guys are talking about on their website...could someone post a link to it?

STF
Oct. 20, 2007, 02:48 PM
I dont even WANT to see it.
I guess they need pain and discoumfort to gain control!

LMH
Oct. 20, 2007, 03:02 PM
http://www.saddleandtackwarehouse.com/product-listing.asp?category_id=284

The new Parelli/Myler bit series.

The C3 is the one that is being sold with the Cradle Bridle.

BUT I am believe the different bits are determined by the Horsanality.

Bluey
Oct. 20, 2007, 03:10 PM
http://www.saddleandtackwarehouse.com/product-listing.asp?category_id=284

The new Parelli/Myler bit series.

The C3 is the one that is being sold with the Cradle Bridle.

BUT I am believe the different bits are determined by the Horsanality.


Sorry, I don't get a picture there, just the name and price.

Yes, once a western horse is well trained, he will respond no matter what bit you put in him, but then you are not holding constant contact with the reins, they are only a very light extra help when needed, the other aids the main ones.

When you are training the basics, shanks in any curb without a solid mouth, ported or not, tend to be confusing, as they move the parts of the bit in all directions.
Try it yourself.;)

trailhorse1
Oct. 20, 2007, 03:22 PM
Quite honestly folks, Pat Parelli is successful in the horse world. He and his wife make more money in one month than every single COTH member put together makes in a single year. He and his wife are successful. Does not matter whether he is right or wrong. He and his wife have incredible numbers following him. I have seen a number of threads on this forum about Pat Parelli and all the negative bull sh*t. I honestly believe you folks are incredibly jealous! Let's face it, Pat is out there and all you folks are still here, posting on this forum! I don't see Pat posting here in rebuttle! Why? Because he is better than you folks. He is doing what half of you folks wish and only dream you could do!
I do not follow Pat or his wife but he obviously is doing something right. You folks need to take off your blinders and grow up.

Lastly, anyone who tours with Hilary Clayton is obviously a closed minded un-professional, no-nothing horse person.

dutchmike
Oct. 20, 2007, 03:53 PM
Quite honestly folks, Pat Parelli is successful in the horse world. He and his wife make more money in one month than every single COTH member put together makes in a single year. He and his wife are successful. Does not matter whether he is right or wrong. He and his wife have incredible numbers following him. I have seen a number of threads on this forum about Pat Parelli and all the negative bull sh*t. I honestly believe you folks are incredibly jealous! Let's face it, Pat is out there and all you folks are still here, posting on this forum! I don't see Pat posting here in rebuttle! Why? Because he is better than you folks. He is doing what half of you folks wish and only dream you could do!
I do not follow Pat or his wife but he obviously is doing something right. You folks need to take off your blinders and grow up.

Lastly, anyone who tours with Hilary Clayton is obviously a closed minded un-professional, no-nothing horse person.

Jealous of what?. His incredible riding abillity?.:lol:

NoDQhere
Oct. 20, 2007, 04:08 PM
Quite honestly folks, Pat Parelli is successful in the horse world. He and his wife make more money in one month than every single COTH member put together makes in a single year. He and his wife are successful. Does not matter whether he is right or wrong. He and his wife have incredible numbers following him. I have seen a number of threads on this forum about Pat Parelli and all the negative bull sh*t. I honestly believe you folks are incredibly jealous! Let's face it, Pat is out there and all you folks are still here, posting on this forum! I don't see Pat posting here in rebuttle! Why? Because he is better than you folks. He is doing what half of you folks wish and only dream you could do!
I do not follow Pat or his wife but he obviously is doing something right. You folks need to take off your blinders and grow up.

Lastly, anyone who tours with Hilary Clayton is obviously a closed minded un-professional, no-nothing horse person.

All righty then :eek: First off, you don't know the "bank accounts" of every single COTH poster here, now do you? But you are right in that the Parellis do have a huge following and apparently that is how you judge success. Good for you. Jealous?? Yeah, right :lol:

The biggest gripe with the P's is their animosity towards dressage. To the best of my knowledge they have never competed in Dressage, at any level. Aparently Linda tried and failed so now Dressage is BAD. So they make snide comments towards Dressage, claim it is bad for horses, and so on.....

With all due respect, some of us Dressage people would like the P's to stop dissing Dressage. At least until they compete, on a horse they have schooled. And since the lower levels are for beginner/young, riders/horses, I feel that someone with their expertise should be able to whip out a fourth level or higher test, easily.

Hopefully your comment regarding Hilary Clayton is in jest. Ms. Clayton has a boatload of "CREDENTIALS" and "EDUCATION" and is also a successful DRESSAGE COMPETITOR. Apples and oranges. :sleepy:

DLee
Oct. 20, 2007, 04:19 PM
I do not believe the bit is jointed.

BumbleBee
Oct. 20, 2007, 04:23 PM
Quite honestly folks, Pat Parelli is successful in the horse world. He and his wife make more money in one month than every single COTH member put together makes in a single year.

Uh you obviously have NO IDEA who posts on these boards. Many could buy and sell pp. There is a lot of money here and even more sucess.

The kicker none of them act like first rate baffoons a la pp in public to garner their sucess and $$.

STF
Oct. 20, 2007, 04:28 PM
Quite honestly folks, Pat Parelli is successful in the horse world.


Sucessful can mean many different things. If money means sucessful, then maybe, to some. As for marketing, hell yes, they took the winner circle there. As for honest horsemanship, that is an opinion.



He and his wife make more money in one month than every single COTH member put together makes in a single year.


Really! Wow!


He and his wife are successful. Does not matter whether he is right or wrong. He and his wife have incredible numbers following him.

So did David Koresh and his followers followed him right to the space ship waiting for them.



I have seen a number of threads on this forum about Pat Parelli and all the negative bull sh*t.

Parelli and BS do seem to follow each other closely



I honestly believe you folks are incredibly jealous!
That is the best thing I have heard so far. I would not trade any bit of money that those clowns make in trade of anything I have or can do. Those people are no more than theives who steal from people with limited knowledge by taking them into their cults and robbing their bank accounts dry. Yeah, real jealous Im not like them! :lol:



Let's face it, Pat is out there and all you folks are still here, posting on this forum!

I have to eat lunch sometime during the day.....


I don't see Pat posting here in rebuttle! Why? Because he is better than you folks.
Better than us at selling bulls**t, that is a FACT! He is the king of Horsie Amway!



He is doing what half of you folks wish and only dream you could do!
Yes, I only dream to be able to piaffe a horse like he does. LMAO I want to be the laughing stock of dressage as well. I hate to tell you but very few professionals in this sport follow this circus group.


I do not follow Pat or his wife but he obviously is doing something right. You folks need to take off your blinders and grow up.
Speaking our mind makes us have blinders? Silly statement!


Lastly, anyone who tours with Hilary Clayton is obviously a closed minded un-professional, no-nothing horse person.
At least Hilary has balls and hair on her chest

STF
Oct. 20, 2007, 04:29 PM
Jealous of what?. His incredible riding abillity?.:lol:


Mike you know when you see him Piaffe on TV, it just drains your little heart to tears!
:lol:

MassageLady
Oct. 20, 2007, 04:37 PM
STF...I have nothing more to say! You said it all!!:lol:
Jealous-give me a break.:no:

dutchmike
Oct. 20, 2007, 04:37 PM
Mike you know when you see him Piaffe on TV, it just drains your little heart to tears!
:lol:

I haven't got the RFDtv :confused:. I am sure I am not missing much in seeing PP trying to do Piaffe ,it must be same as the rest of his Saussaaaaaaaaage

STF
Oct. 20, 2007, 04:39 PM
I will try to download it so I can post it. Its lovely.....

dutchmike
Oct. 20, 2007, 04:46 PM
I will try to download it so I can post it. Its lovely.....

I will get a bucket ready incase I want to puke:dead:

Ghazzu
Oct. 20, 2007, 05:04 PM
Lastly, anyone who tours with Hilary Clayton is obviously a closed minded un-professional, no-nothing horse person.

I am unsure what you mean by this statement.
Am I to infer that this is a sarcastic reference, and Dr. Clayton is touring with the Parellis ?
Or is this about someone else "touring" with Dr. Clayton?
(And I was unaware that she went on tour, as it were. I thought she simply gave seminars here and there in between teaching and research.)

STF
Oct. 20, 2007, 05:23 PM
Dr. Clayton has more brains in her little toe than the Parellis have in their heads combined!

MassageLady
Oct. 20, 2007, 07:30 PM
This is from another forum...supposedly a response from LP:lol:
Linda Parelli asked that I forward this response from her.

Best wishes,
Renee Weger
Sales Manager



Dear Shelley,



Yes, it was an unfortunate timing thing.:rolleyes: We had made an arrangement with Walter Zettl last spring that was then changed a few weeks later:uhoh:. We did a tour stop during that time and of course Pat loves to share the ‘latest’ so that’s why he mentioned it. We never thought about it being shown on RFDTV:winkgrin:, so it was a surprise to us all:rolleyes:! Thanks for writing and asking for the truth about what happened:sleepy:.



Linda



PS Here is Walter’s response that he posted on the dressage bulletin board:



Let me weigh in on this topic. Pat and Linda are students of mine. They are some of the most capable and committed horsemen I have worked with.

The Parelli’s, out of concern for my health and the effect of excessive travel on it, made me an offer to primarily work with them. As generous as their offer was, my devotion to the horse and the riders who love them, and my goal to educate as many as possible, would not allow me to accept it.

It saddens me to read some of the negative comments made by posters without them knowing all the facts.

The Parelli’s have contacted me with a sincere apology for the misunderstanding. I continue to teach in clinics around the country including very productive lessons at the Parelli’s.



Walter Zettl

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 20, 2007, 09:22 PM
Quite honestly folks, Pat Parelli is successful in the horse world. He and his wife make more money in one month than every single COTH member put together makes in a single year. He and his wife are successful. Does not matter whether he is right or wrong. He and his wife have incredible numbers following him. I have seen a number of threads on this forum about Pat Parelli and all the negative bull sh*t. I honestly believe you folks are incredibly jealous! Let's face it, Pat is out there and all you folks are still here, posting on this forum! I don't see Pat posting here in rebuttle! Why? Because he is better than you folks. He is doing what half of you folks wish and only dream you could do!
I do not follow Pat or his wife but he obviously is doing something right. You folks need to take off your blinders and grow up.

Lastly, anyone who tours with Hilary Clayton is obviously a closed minded un-professional, no-nothing horse person.

I don't get the comment about Hillary Clayton, who is a research scientist holding a faculty position (actually, an endowed chair, which is pretty big stuff in academe).

Pat does nothing I wish I could do. Now, Walter Zetl, he does LOTS I wish I could do!!!

Know how I spent my afternoon? Had a lesson, which two other people joined in - sort of spur of the moment, following one of the person's lesson. First, I massaged a part of my horse, and tried to feel the connection from his body to mine. Sounds ooo-eee-ooh, right? But I finally understood the concept that if I am to influence my horse's movement and position through my body, I can't think like an upright bipedal animal, I have to feel my body as if it were quadruped. And remember, our scapulas don't quite relate to the horse's shoulder, and our heel correlates more to the hock than the hoof.

And then I got on....at this point, with no contact. Just feeling where my body was, and how I could influence my horse. And was it ever fantastic! We took turns, so that I could see from the ground - amazing how almost imperceptible body adjustments in the rider make such an enormous difference to the horse! My horse was supple, swinging through his back, articulating his joints well, relaxed, soft, responsive.

Nothing like that in Parelli. Why would I even consider trading what I am doing now for circus tricks?

dalpal
Oct. 20, 2007, 10:26 PM
So Trailhorse....let me get this straight....Robert Dover is part of a US government conspiracy with his reality dressage show (please read Trailhorse's comments under the Equestrian Star thread).......so, I guess that makes Patti a cult leader, huh? Glad to see he gets your respect. :lol:

I think you need to go find your happy medicine.