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NOMIOMI1
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:07 PM
I was just reading this on another forum and thought it would be an interesting topic. They were discussing whether or not it would help those of us in the middle/lower classes (money) to have the Warmbloods in their own classes so that the rest of us with "mugles" can compete against each other.

Just wondering what you think??

TropicalStorm
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:11 PM
What about us with the cheap warmbloods? :cool:

Mozart
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:15 PM
What about us with the cheap warmbloods? :cool:
You and I would be in the same class then. "Cheap Warmblood Ridden By an Amateur"

CTM
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:19 PM
I thought dressage was about your own personal journey with your own horse and you rode for the best score you could accomplish together, not where you placed in a class. There will always be someone with more money and a fancier horse; it's a fact of life.

TropicalStorm
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:20 PM
You and I would be in the same class then. "Cheap Warmblood Ridden By an Amateur"
Amen!

twnkltoz
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:24 PM
I think it's a great idea...if you also have a class for horses that have been professionally trained, non-warmbloods who cost more than $10K, any horse that's ever gotten 8 or better on gaits, a class for people who train on their own, a class for horses that cost $2K or less....

Heck, why don't we do what leadliners do, and give everyone a blue ribbon?

~Freedom~
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:29 PM
How about non traditional WBs?

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:30 PM
The argument was that the other horses cannot compete with the gaits of the warmblood. It makes me sad to hear this. My arabian has been given such huge compliments on his movement and overstride. Some of the Warmblood prospects I have looked at can't compete with his walk. Funny thing is my next horse (keep our fingers crossed) is a fancy non papered pinto looking thing that nobody can agree what he is. He is extremely fancy and forward and has a great natural frame on him. Out of everything we looked at he has the most potential!

class
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:37 PM
great idea. just to be fair, i think we should also split the classes into 'fancy warmbloods' 'average warmbloods' tb-wb crosses' 'draft crosses that are called warmbloods' 'iberians' 'stock-type horses that aren't built for dressage' 'ottbs' 'unknown heritage' 'ayrabs or saddlebreds' and 'ponies' that way everyone has a good chance at a ribbon, which is the important part.

Gracie
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:38 PM
The argument was that the other horses cannot compete with the gaits of the warmblood.

In most cases, other horses can't compete successfully against a warmblood's gaits.

But you CAN compete against everything else! There was a spectacular Swedish mare that used to compete here -- when she was on, she was unbeatable. The other competitors would cross their fingers that the pair would mess up something else in the test -- it certainly would not be gaits.


that way everyone has a good chance at a ribbon, which is the important part.

That's what I'm sayin'!

Coreene
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:45 PM
Oh sweet bejayzus. Is a ribbon so important?

slc2
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:58 PM
include in the list a class for menopausal riders, with subdivisions for post and perimenopausal.

i think a class for poorly trained horses would be a bonus too.

actually, what i'd rather have is more different awards within the show structure, some just for fun, best turnout, cutest companion dog, have some fun. smallest horse, largest horse, oldest rider showing, youngest, youngest at fei, i think a special ribbon for riders competing in their first show, oldest horse, oldest horse and rider combined years, best groom, best outfit, best turnout, best seat and hands, highest scorer on each general remark (group), awards for all the people who got over a 7 on seat and aids, awards for all horses that got high scores on gaits, awards for all horses scoring high on obedience, award for all people shipping in over a certain mileage, most exciting appearance in front of ground jury, etc. they don't have to be big expensive rewards. packs of horse treats, things like that, bigger things at bigger shows.

i actually like to see more achievement awards at shows, i think anyone who gets a good score on seat and aids should get an award, we want to encourage that right?

sm
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:59 PM
Why YES! Anything to spend time actually not learning to ride, after all, it is hard work. And WBs are the promise of instant gratification.

I think we can do something with HORSE SHOES as well: we can award the best groomed horse shoe, Horse Shoes In Hand 2 weeks and older...


i think a special ribbon for... the most exciting appearance in front of ground jury

Please, can we hire a stand in, like in the old army days the rich could pay someone to pick up a rifle and take their place? I could line up a few cute guys, depending on the ground jury of course. Where is my checkbook...

blackhorsegirl
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:02 PM
Let's not separate the classes. Instead, let's work a little harder and strive for excellence. If my score is disappointing, it's usually me who's messed up. I can't blame that on my horse's breeding.

carovet
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:07 PM
Ive said this before, but i think that a better way to divide it up would be claimer classes just like the racehorses do.

You can enter into whatever division you want -- up to 3k, 3-7 k, 7-15 k, 15-30k, 30 and up.

that way your horse only competes against horses that are worth about the same as him and it does even the playing field.

of course, if you enter, you be prepared that someone might claim your horse at the price posted. If you aren't prepared for him to be claimed, you show in the open division or at the price range that you feel safe at.

:D

Sort of the put up or shut up of "his horse is better than mine" and that is why they beat us.

sm
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:12 PM
Well darn. Let's do the math:

$000000.00 paid nothing for the OTTB
$85,000.000 imported WBs he could beat all the way up through I-II. He never showed GP.

Nope, doesn't work. Give me OPEN FEI classes and a great trainer who's also a USDF judge. I'll roll with the punches.

lorik
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:12 PM
I'm sure all of this is 'tongue in cheek', but the fact is that the tests are written for the warmblood who has extragavant extended gaits. If everyone wants to be competitive, think to the writing of the tests. Do we reward the extended or the collected gaits?

Equa
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:12 PM
This is so silly! Not all WBs have fancy gaits. Some are not born with them, some have them trained out, some have only 2 out of 3 good gaits. So where do we put the Part-bred WBs, like mine. Half TB/Hanoverian, and seven-eighths WB?

Lokking at a lovely GP wb for sale recently (my daughter was lusting after him, except she's an eventer now) we were discussing how he has an "ordinary" trot. No real big extension. However, he is a gorgeous, motivated horse with world class capacity in the tempi changes, pirouettes and P&P tour. Plenty of other horses out there with a fancy big trot and not much else. Seems people just look at this when it comes to defining "good" gaits.

Personally, I'd like to see a prize awarded for nicest plaiting job, shiniest browband, or friendliest-disposition-in-a-professional-rider, and most-relevant-yet-non-snarky-monkey gallery-comment.

class
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:18 PM
Well darn. Let's do the math:

$000000.00 paid nothing for the OTTB
$85,000.000 imported WBs he could beat all the way up through I-II. He never showed GP.

Nope, doesn't work. Give me OPEN classes and a great trainer who's also a USDF judge. I'll roll with the punches.

you don't enter your horse in the class based on what you paid for him. you enter him in the class based on what you would sell him for that day. of course the "priceless" class would probably be pretty full at every show. ;)

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:19 PM
Heck, why don't we do what leadliners do, and give everyone a blue ribbon?


GREAT IDEA!!!!!!!

MistyBlue
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:25 PM
It's dress-ahhhge, not hunters. Scores matter, not the 50 cent ribbon. :winkgrin:

If the ribbon is that important...go to smaller local shows...find out how many are doing each test and then enter the lowest level you can that has the least amount of entrants...and you raise your chances of your score being high enough for a ribbon.

Seriously...I'm middle class...I can afford a competitive WB. A GP level one? Hell no, can't afford that. But a competitive one at the average level I could possibly reach? Yup.
Why the heck does everyone think all WB's are in the high 5 to mid 6 figure ranges? Dollars to donuts the riders aren't riding the levels these horses are capable of...so buy a horse that actually suits the real life person we each are and not the internet wanna-be fantasy rider we all assume we'd be *if only we could afford the big bucks horsie.* :rolleyes: :DLet's have a Reality Cookie here...few of us will ever be Olympic medalists or top level riders. Few of us have the *time* it takes to train ourselves and any price horse to that level. And even if all WB's went on sale next wekk for $19.99 and included a free Ginsu Knife set...doesn't mean we'd all suddenly become top level riders, or be able to afford the massive time and income for the training and showing to get there.
The price of the horse has bupkis to do with the level you reach. ;)

~Freedom~
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:27 PM
Heck, why don't we do what leadliners do, and give everyone a blue ribbon?

Now there is an idea. Why don't we just have a dressage lead line class. That way all you have to do is sit pretty a bat your eyes at the judges.:yes:

sm
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:28 PM
you don't enter your horse in the class based on what you paid for him. you enter him in the class based on what you would sell him for that day. of course the "priceless" class would probably be pretty full at every show. ;)

Oh, thank you. PRICELESS it is then. Now I feel better, as he likes to watch the other horses put in their tests. He only gets revved up when he sees the "big" horses, he gets that look in his eyes like "I can take them, I can take them." Of course there's a point at which he can't, so I tell him quietly maybe not today, but what the heck let's get in there and take our shot.

MistyBlue
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:35 PM
Now there is an idea. Why don't we just have a dressage lead line class. That way all you have to do is sit pretty a bat your eyes at the judges.

Now you *know* people will suddenly start using fake eyelashes like crazy...thus cheating in the Eye Batting part of the leadline dressage test. :yes:

~Freedom~
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:40 PM
Now you *know* people will suddenly start using fake eyelashes like crazy...thus cheating in the Eye Batting part of the leadline dressage test. :yes:

Do you think they will "over bend" the eyelashes and get accused of something awful like............... rollkur..........:eek:

sm
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:43 PM
Now you *know* people will suddenly start using fake eyelashes like crazy...

sounds like HyperLashflexation to me, clearly there needs to be rules on this.

Samantha37
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:44 PM
that is silly... and annoying!
i have an extremely well moving TB... great gaits and everything...
i cant wait to start kicking some fancy shmancy WB butts :D

dalpal
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:53 PM
Well, in some aspects that is already happening. I know arabian shows have dressage classes and they are divded by pure/half breed. So if you show an arabian, you have that option. I'm sure other breed shows do the same.

For me.....I own a TB and I wouldn't want the classes divided....I want to be against the big boys....if I don't win, no big deal and if I did...then he gets even more carrots and hugs..LOL!

I'm a fan of the underdog...if you win..awesome! And if you don't, you aren't banging your head against the wall asking..why, why did I mortagage my house to buy this horse. :lol:

MistyBlue
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:57 PM
Do you think they will "over bend" the eyelashes and get accused of something awful like............... rollkur..........

Well now...and where do youo think rollkur came from??? KUR-ling your eyelashes...and yes, they do have evil gadgets for that! Little metal torture devises that act as badly as side reins do. :no:
It's a travesty I tell you. :sigh:


sounds like HyperLashflexation to me, clearly there needs to be rules on this.

Nu uh, no rules. It's classical. Yup, yup it is.
Now I have to go and put wraps on my lashes...they're sore from being overflexed all day long.

EqTrainer
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:00 PM
I was just reading this on another forum and thought it would be an interesting topic. They were discussing whether or not it would help those of us in the middle/lower classes (money) to have the Warmbloods in their own classes so that the rest of us with "mugles" can compete against each other.

Just wondering what you think??

I think this is ridiculous, because it implies that WB's automatically have some sort of advantage (meaning, an automatic higher score) in dressage. As a whole, they might. As individuals, they do not.

sm
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:04 PM
Very zen.

I remember an old vet who used to vet at the USET events tell me once when I took my OTTB out of eventing (well, actually he took himself out of eventing because he wasn't a happy camper) and we went into dressage:

The old vet said, "Well, the thing about dressage is the horse is only as good as the rider." A wise man, simply said. And I could count the people on one hand who didn't try to talk me into ditching my OTTB and getting a WB to do dressage. He was one of them.

twnkltoz
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:08 PM
I have some false eyelashes with rhinestones on them! Now THAT's hard-core bling!! Ooh, I don't think there's a rule against putting rhinestones on your horse's eyelashes...between us we could blind everyone and steal ALL the blue ribbons!!

LD1129
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:12 PM
How will I know what it feels like when my Appendix auction horse beats out an expensive warmblood?? I like the competition, gives me more to work for :yes:

Bluey
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:33 PM
In England, they tell me, they have two types of dog agility classes, one for border collies and another for OTBC, other than border collies.:lol:

In the USA, you train your dog, you run your course for the dog you have and are happy to qualify and get titles.
The fastest ones win the ribbons and those are many times bc's, so what.


How about doing that in dressage, a minimum score to qualify for titles and then the scoring, as now, counting for places and ribbons.:cool:

Fancy Pants horse achieves three qualifying scores, after several NQ tries (non qualifying) and is now permitted to ad behind it's name the first line of letters.
Then, as it aquires three more qualifying scores at each consequent level, gets the next letters and so on:

Fancy Pants DI
Fancy Pants DT
Fancy pants D1 and on to D4
Fancy Pants DPSG
Fancy Pants DI1
Fancy Pants DI2
Fancy Pants DGP

With dogs, you have to move to the next level when you qualify in one, but with horses, I guess that you may stay at a level until achieving so many qualifying scores, more than the 3 and then eventually have to move up.

We would have to try this for size and see how it would work best.:D

With dogs, you also ad qualifying scores to a large total and then you become a MACH, Master Agility Champion.:)
By then you are also of course at the top of the competition in titles earned.
Not many in the whole of the USA achieve that high a title.

Forte
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:53 PM
Those people who think dressage tests are written for warmbloods with fancy gaits need to get a reality check. The gaits are ONE score on the collective marks. Look at Second Level test 1 for example, (I picked that one, only because it's the one I'm riding next weekend.) Let's see here, movements that even a limited mover could score high on . . . centreline, shoulder in, turn across the ring, 10 m circles in trot and canter, counter canter, simple changes (count for double) The only movements where one could argue that having a fancier mover helps are the medium trot and canter. But even an uber mover can fall on his forehand and get irregular in the medium trot, or get crooked in the canter and he would still get a 4 or 5 just like a grade horse! Plus, the mediums also have scores for the transitions in and out, which again, an average mover could score well on. I really don't see warmbloods being given that much of an advantage. What I do see is that many owners of "fancy" horses take their riding very seriously and ride 6 days a week, work with the best trainers possible and therefore reap the rewards. I do see people with very average horses doing the same thing. The thing is, pretty soon those "average" horses start passing for "fancy" horses because they are so well trained. Remember, an average mover who is well ridden with improve in the gaits day by day. Even a million dollar mover who is ridden a moron will start to look like a camel with a touch of laminitis.

EqTrainer
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:56 PM
Remember, an average mover who is well ridden with improve in the gaits day by day. Even a million dollar mover who is ridden a moron will start to look like a camel with a touch of laminitis.



:lol::lol::lol: Thank you.

Velvet
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:03 PM
We've discussed this topic quite a few times in the past (why does it seem that every topic keeps coming back around--especially the "what do the letters stand for?" topics :lol: ).

Anyway, it was something that was brought up a LONG time ago, before WBs were popular and TBs were winning all the time. They thought about having TB only classes because it was unfair to the other non-TBs at the shows. :rolleyes:

It won't ever happen. If you want to have breed classes you have them at breed specific shows. Dressage shows are open to all breeds, no bias, and that's just not going to change (nor should it, IMO).

flshgordon
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:50 PM
I was just reading this on another forum and thought it would be an interesting topic. They were discussing whether or not it would help those of us in the middle/lower classes (money) to have the Warmbloods in their own classes so that the rest of us with "mugles" can compete against each other.

Just wondering what you think??

I'm trying to figure out if this is a joke or if it's a real question??:confused:

So gaits are one teeny, tiny percentage of the score and a nice warmblood gets an 8 where your horse gets a 6. That is 4 points towards the total percentage. I'm pretty sure that if you ride a nice flowing, accurate test, you're going to erase that advantage in a heartbeat unless you don't put in as good of a ride as someone else. Seriously, someone messes up on a halt and you've erased that "advantage". What an odd topic.....

Mukluk
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:06 PM
Well it seems the nice thing about dressage is you get a score so can't you forget about the other guys and just enjoy doing better relative to yourself? I compete in running races and triathlons and I will probably never win but I can improve relative to myself. Plus I enjoy training for and competing in my races.

sublimequine
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:35 PM
I hate to sound prejudiced or anything, but that's why I'm a big believer in finding a horse's natural talents, what is is bred and built to do, and following that!

That's not to say Warmbloods are the only breed with a natural talent for Dressage. I actually have seen quite a few Arabians with quite a calling in Dressage. Their light, airy gaits work well in Dressage.

But try and throw a Clydesdale or a big fat stock-looking QH in the Dressage arena, and don't expect a Warmblood caliber of talent. Same as you won't be seein Warmbloods in the WP showring anytime soon. :lol:

If you don't think your atypical Dressage horse can compete against Warmbloods in the showring, well, you're probably right. If that's really an issue for you, switch disciplines, or go find a Warmblood to ride. If you're in it for the sole love of Dressage in its 'pure form', and your horse doesn't seem to mind doing it, then full steam ahead!

neVar
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:43 PM
don't agree with it- good moving horses don't make it easier- if at MOST it will up ONE score- and rarely then.

IE- i have an international level moving horse (as per inspections 9's on all gaits) and i got him for under 15k paid for with a oTTB i trained/fliped (ok is 3 years considered flipping?)

And what have i gotten? a horse who is the equivalent of having a neon sign over my head "she's bracing" "she's nervous" "will she learn to sit?" because that movement magnifies ANY mistake I or WE make. . .

it is JUST as bloody friggin hard to get the 60's on a warmblood. never thought it would be BUT IT IS!

see u at x
Oct. 4, 2007, 12:26 AM
Personally, I'm with the other people who said that they want to compete against the "big boys". I love a great moving and beautiful horse no matter what the breed is. All's fair in love and dressage, right? If I recall correctly, at our first dressage test a few months ago, my 15 hand, $600, non-registered QH beat out a WB. I thought for sure that we wouldn't stand a chance, but I guess we just happened to be more "on" that day, in spite of my mare coming off a 3 week injury and getting only 2 practice rides in the couple of days before the test! Next time might be a different story, which is cool with me. If your test is genuinely better than mine, then you deserve that blue ribbon and "job satisfaction" more than I do! :)

BoyleHeightsKid
Oct. 4, 2007, 08:15 AM
great idea. just to be fair, i think we should also split the classes into 'fancy warmbloods' 'average warmbloods' tb-wb crosses' 'draft crosses that are called warmbloods' 'iberians' 'stock-type horses that aren't built for dressage' 'ottbs' 'unknown heritage' 'ayrabs or saddlebreds' and 'ponies' that way everyone has a good chance at a ribbon, which is the important part.
:lol:

dutchmike
Oct. 4, 2007, 08:24 AM
can we also make different classes for skinny people, fat people ,short people, tall people ,ugly people and pretty people while we are at it?.

carolprudm
Oct. 4, 2007, 08:34 AM
You can ride in a $2000 claiming class or a $20,000 claiming class:)

Kimberlee
Oct. 4, 2007, 08:39 AM
Have to say that SLC's idea about more "fun" prizes would be fun. But, isn't that up to the show organizers??

It would make Dressage more public friendly, as it would give more things during the show that the public could get. IE - when horse and rider go into ring, in addition to their name state they "won" blab-blab-blab. Then it is more than just another horse doing another test.

Personally I am not getting the point of a WB vs Non-WB class. Dressage is about the training of your horse. Accuratness is the most critical part of dressage. It does not matter how great (or bad) your horse naturally moves, if you are not able to get your transitions done on the mark.

PS - Arabs and half vs pure classes because they run those as two seperate year end divisions for all the classes (western pleasure, halter, dressage, hunter under saddle, etc). It is simply a way to give them a bigger base, and distinguish between the purebreeds and halfbreeds.

Are you going to say that my (hypothetical) Rubinstein out of a TB Mare, horse is not eligible for the non-warmblood class? Why not she is half TB? She is only half warmblood and therefore could not possibly compete with the WBS. That is just bull as far as I am concerned.

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 4, 2007, 08:57 AM
I thought dressage was about your own personal journey with your own horse and you rode for the best score you could accomplish together, not where you placed in a class. There will always be someone with more money and a fancier horse; it's a fact of life.

This, hands-down, is one of the best posts I have ever seen on COTH. My personal philosophy in a nutshell. Elegantly stated. My hat is off to you CTM. Thank you.

Valentina_32926
Oct. 4, 2007, 10:09 AM
I thought dressage was about your own personal journey with your own horse and you rode for the best score you could accomplish together, not where you placed in a class. There will always be someone with more money and a fancier horse; it's a fact of life.

Yup - I agree.
And you do NOT need a WB to win, but you DO need to be a VERY good rider - I've had a pony beat my WB (recognized show) and the pony deserved to win - the rider was better than I was and won with a better performance.

Lgd1
Oct. 4, 2007, 10:32 AM
Ah well I will need a class for sporthorse bred TB's (my FEI level mare is 7/8TB), one for non-typical warmbloods (Russian Orlov x) , one for Native ponies (Fell Pony). :winkgrin:

My friend often describes her huge Dun 16.3hh TB x Shire/Welsh Sec D as a 'Wenglish' WB :lol:

My darling little 7/8TB has hammered the pants off many a fancy WB - they'd love to see her in another class :D

purplnurpl
Oct. 4, 2007, 10:40 AM
That's rediculous.
There are schooling shows for this very purpose.

and the Europeans are laughing right now.

geez, there was just a thread about the USEF and how they should make rules like:
you cannot ride your youngster in an arena every day.
young horses should have wider dressage arenas
there should be fat horse regulations

give me a break.

eqsiu
Oct. 4, 2007, 10:40 AM
:confused:

I've found that a crap mover can score well if you're accurate and the horse is willing. Great movers can still be crooked and poorly ridden.

I think spectators benefit from extravagant gaits more so than scores. Dividing classes into professionals and amateurs would be more fair, and even then people would complain.

exvet
Oct. 4, 2007, 10:49 AM
I've been following and participating in the thread (OTOBB) the I'm pretty sure instigated this one. I also have been participating (well let's just call it posting since the breeds I have aren't even considered worthy of being called dressage ponies let alone a dressage horse LOL) in the threads on this BB regarding creating separate classes for dressage ponies and am against both suggestions. As I've stated elsewhere/before and have taken the liberty to simply cut and paste with a little editing.....;)........

I think I have a well rounded perspective on this issue. I compete in at least 6-8 recognized shows a year (open) as well as 2-3 breed shows a year (dressage). I've been competing third all year and am just breaking into fourth (schooling shows) with one of the many I show. This is not the first horse I've taken from backing to this point. I have bred, raised, trained, shown warmbloods in the past but have 2 "other" breeds now that make up the majority of my herd. While I concede that warmbloods in general have the innate advantage based on gaits - freedom, suspension, the conformation to engage - I have seen many who have been ruined by poor training, riding, etc. As I've pointed out to some here in the past, my NONwarmbloods are competitive and do pretty well against the warmbloods if we must look at it from a perspective of competing against them (us vs them) however having done this for a while and having to take my wins and losses in stride, more often than not my losses/mistakes are mine and are fixable/capable of improvement. Actually my NONwarmbloods usually score well on gaits. At no time can I sit here and say that I didn't win ONLY because of gaits or the lack thereof. Some of the proof in the pudding is though I do well at the breed shows, if the mistakes repeat themselves there and I don't win, then it's painfully obvious that it's my riding (or lack thereof) that is to blame. I think I'm pretty realistic as well as competitive. Though I suscribe to the crede of competing against oneself I do go out there to try to prove a few things to myself and others. Many times I am successful but as in any sport/competition where there are so many things that are out of our control I don't always win and breed/warmblood vs. nonwarmblood (ie, how much MONEY one has to throw at it) isn't the only deciding factor. I don't have a full-size arena. I have to make do with what I have (small arena & trails) to train my horses. Perhaps after we separate the haves from the havenots based on what breed of horse we own/compete we could then separate based on type of facilities we can each afford? I could go on and on from there.

I am facing a championship where there will be 9 riders at third level. I am the only one on a nonwarmblood. Do I expect to win....NO. This is "this" particular nonwarmblood's first year at third but I do intend to ride my best and the fact that he is a nonwarmblood is not the reason we might not garner first place. I am very competitive so I will do my best to maximize his strong points and since Uber gaits is not in his repetoire I will work hard to show a difference between collected, mediums and extendeds. I will work hard to make my halts, reinbacks, turn on the haunches spot on - all movements that don't depend on uber gaits. Those that carry coefficients - half passes & flying changes I will do my very best to try to at least get 7s 'cause when we're on my horse is quite capable of it - again he doesn't have uber gaits. My challenge is making sure "we're on." It is currently consistency and strength that is OUR PROBLEM not the lack of uber gaits. I do take advantage of the system in that I have competed for all-breed awards, I do participate in breed shows (dressage) but my favorite venue is the open show where I don't expect, want or need to be separated from the warmbloods to have my riding and training critiqued fairly. Yes I do have to ride 110% to make up for the lack of uber gaits but that's the trade off based on my desire that I choose to accept.

If that isn't convincing enough to let things be and simply make sure our judges hold true to the real principles of dressage then how about this - be it warmbloods vs. other breeds or dressage ponies vs. horses - I truly am not wealthy and must focus on practicality. If we start adding more classes/divisions just so people can earn more ribbons because the standard doesn't really change, then shows will become so expensive (as if they aren't already) that I think it will become cost prohibitive for the vast majority of amateurs to compete. By adding divisions you need more rings, more judges or more days - all adding to expense that must be shared by all participants. I guess, instead, I prefer to try to keep telling others that it can be done. You can compete and feel good about your accomplishments even on a nonwarmblood that costs less than $5000. It takes hard work, perseverance, some luck in finding great instruction but not impossible. One does have to accept limitations and be realistic in order to be fair to both horse and rider but that doesn't mean give up....it just means make the strong aspects stronger and the weak once less noticeable. It's easy to get frustrated when you see the wildly bouncing, banging rider who only gets on after the trainer gets off to go in and "win" the class because of a beautiful uphill uber gaited warmblood (who is often too forgiving) but to only focus on that inequality instead of the aspects of oneself or partnership that can be strengthened, improved, etc sells the whole sport short JMO - though not humble based on the fact that I get out there and do it - lose, win, fail, succeed and have no one to blame but myself - makes life simpler, not easy but simple.

Mozart
Oct. 4, 2007, 11:21 AM
don't agree with it- good moving horses don't make it easier- if at MOST it will up ONE score- and rarely then.

IE- i have an international level moving horse (as per inspections 9's on all gaits) and i got him for under 15k paid for with a oTTB i trained/fliped (ok is 3 years considered flipping?)

And what have i gotten? a horse who is the equivalent of having a neon sign over my head "she's bracing" "she's nervous" "will she learn to sit?" because that movement magnifies ANY mistake I or WE make. . .

it is JUST as bloody friggin hard to get the 60's on a warmblood. never thought it would be BUT IT IS!

I know EXACTLY what you mean..:yes:

LaoiseNic
Oct. 4, 2007, 12:09 PM
Ok just an opinion from the other side of the pond :)

I think it would be really sad to have the warmbloods in separate classes. Just personal opinion but I think one of the best feelings in the world is to ride into the ring against the WBs and show them how it is done!

I have a friend who recently competed her Big Coloured Irish Cob against one of our Olympic riders riding her flashy WB and you'll never guess who came out on top! Said friend has worked tirelessly over the past 2 years to change peoples' opinions about her beloved Cob. She always hears "How can he compete against them?" Well now he has and he had proved his worth!!!

You certainly don't have to have a WB to do Dressage, Dressage is about simple training and all horses are capable of it!

To this day, being approached and congratulated by said Olympic Rider is one of her proudest moments!!!

DownYonder
Oct. 4, 2007, 12:42 PM
A few years ago I was running some schooling dressage shows with several friends and we seriously considered awarding ribbons based on score instead of class placing. In other words, over 65% got you a blue, 60% - 65% earned a red, 55% - 60% earned a yellow, etc. We didn’t implement it because we floated the idea to some other local trainers and they said it was too radical and felt their students would hate it. The other drawback was that it would have been tough for us as show managers to figure out how many ribbons of each color to buy. I still like the idea, though – it puts the emphasis on getting the best score you can, not on who you beat in the class.

Holly Jeanne
Oct. 4, 2007, 12:43 PM
Ah heck, just come ride redneck dressage with us! :D When are we doing another one by the way?

My personal class would be "menopausal women who started riding dressage late who are riding an inexpensive homebred WB who has had less than 2 months training with a professional and has since been ridden by previously mentioned amateur rider who only gets lessons once a month." Did I cover everything?

Anyway, lets do another redneck dressage show sometime soon so I can get my 4 yo out. :lol:

P.S. My friends free Arab gelding would beat the pants of my WB right now and my other friends TB gelding helped her get her bronze.

mp
Oct. 4, 2007, 12:51 PM
Good post, exvet.

I ride a "non" WB and I enjoy taking him to dressage shows. I do it to improve my riding and improve his way of going. Not to chase ribbons (although we've earned a few). That's what we do in rail classes at breed shows. :lol:

And don't most most amateurs in this country ride TL and 1st? I honestly don't think an imported WB is necessary to be competitive at that level. If your horse has decent conformation, you have good instruction and you work at it, you'll do just fine. No need for "special ed" classes.

AnotherRound
Oct. 4, 2007, 01:12 PM
This thread is the most socially embarrasing thread I think this board has produced. Not only because of the whining original post, but mostly because of the number of people who actually have participated in the original post with serious discussion.

Why don't we just have low class, middle class and upper class divisions? Yes, we can call the low class division Red Neck. Or, Trailer Trash, how 'bout that.

Get real. Either just ask for a blue ribbon to be waiting for you when you arrive at the showgrounds, or buckle down and work to compete with everyone else.

The original post on this thread insinuates that the sport should be adjusted so that certain of the competitors will have their classes weighted towards them receiving higher placing and awards for a their more mediocre performance. IOW, "I am not placing, so can't I have a class for poorer performers like me, so I become a big fish in a little pond, rather than a little fish in a big sea?"

I hate people who whine about their competition. Suck it up and compete, or else don't.

Remember the response recently given to a poster who whined that the Dressage world was too political for her to score higher, instead of admitting she had more work to do? That went over like a lead balloon. She was laughed at for that kind of attitude, and people felt sorry for her ignorance about competition. Excuses for not placing, and wanting to change the parameters of competition so you can do better is a combination of being lazy and wanting to cheat.

Work to improve at your best effort. If that isn't good enough for you, then get out of the sport. Its not for you.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 4, 2007, 01:26 PM
This thread is the most socially embarrasing thread I think this board has produced. Not only because of the whining original post, but mostly because of the number of people who actually have participated in the original post with serious discussion.

Why don't we just have low class, middle class and upper class divisions? Yes, we can call the low class division Red Neck. Or, Trailer Trash, how 'bout that.

Get real. Either just ask for a blue ribbon to be waiting for you when you arrive at the showgrounds, or buckle down and work to compete with everyone else.

The original post on this thread insinuates that the sport should be adjusted so that certain of the competitors will have their classes weighted towards them receiving higher placing and awards for a their more mediocre performance. IOW, "I am not placing, so can't I have a class for poorer performers like me, so I become a big fish in a little pond, rather than a little fish in a big sea?"

I hate people who whine about their competition. Suck it up and compete, or else don't.

Remember the response recently given to a poster who whined that the Dressage world was too political for her to score higher, instead of admitting she had more work to do? That went over like a lead balloon. She was laughed at for that kind of attitude, and people felt sorry for her ignorance about competition. Excuses for not placing, and wanting to change the parameters of competition so you can do better is a combination of being lazy and wanting to cheat.

Work to improve at your best effort. If that isn't good enough for you, then get out of the sport. Its not for you.


Anotherround: please try and keep up huh? I made it clear that I didnt agree with it and it was posted for conversation and since your included in it dont call anyone else out!

Edited to say bless your poor confused little heart.

Mozart
Oct. 4, 2007, 01:26 PM
um.... I don't think the OP was proposing this herself...and most of us (in fact I think all of us..were poking fun at the idea...where is the social embarassment? Sorry, not understanding your post.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 4, 2007, 01:30 PM
"I hate people who whine about their competition"

I think Anotherround owes me an apology. What do you guys think?

Pony Fixer
Oct. 4, 2007, 01:45 PM
Everyone is entitled to an opinion here.

And though I *did* understand your OP, since you have emblazoned in your sig line that you own 2 nonWBs, it would be easy to assume that you include yourself in the hypothetical your OP is about.

I have a draft cross and a 1/2 WB. They both have strengths and weaknesses, and luckily they will probably never have to compete against each other (different levels).

sublimequine
Oct. 4, 2007, 01:45 PM
This thread is the most socially embarrasing thread I think this board has produced. Not only because of the whining original post, but mostly because of the number of people who actually have participated in the original post with serious discussion.

Why don't we just have low class, middle class and upper class divisions? Yes, we can call the low class division Red Neck. Or, Trailer Trash, how 'bout that.

Get real. Either just ask for a blue ribbon to be waiting for you when you arrive at the showgrounds, or buckle down and work to compete with everyone else.

The original post on this thread insinuates that the sport should be adjusted so that certain of the competitors will have their classes weighted towards them receiving higher placing and awards for a their more mediocre performance. IOW, "I am not placing, so can't I have a class for poorer performers like me, so I become a big fish in a little pond, rather than a little fish in a big sea?"

I hate people who whine about their competition. Suck it up and compete, or else don't.

Remember the response recently given to a poster who whined that the Dressage world was too political for her to score higher, instead of admitting she had more work to do? That went over like a lead balloon. She was laughed at for that kind of attitude, and people felt sorry for her ignorance about competition. Excuses for not placing, and wanting to change the parameters of competition so you can do better is a combination of being lazy and wanting to cheat.

Work to improve at your best effort. If that isn't good enough for you, then get out of the sport. Its not for you.

Wow, there be a whole lotta rage in that there post. :lol:

Relax. Breathe. Have a cookie. It's just the internet. :o

SillyHorse
Oct. 4, 2007, 03:33 PM
I was just reading this on another forum and thought it would be an interesting topic. They were discussing whether or not it would help those of us in the middle/lower classes (money) to have the Warmbloods in their own classes so that the rest of us with "mugles" can compete against each other.

Just wondering what you think??
I think it's not an interesting topic.

dalpal
Oct. 4, 2007, 04:07 PM
can we also make different classes for skinny people, fat people ,short people, tall people ,ugly people and pretty people while we are at it?.

yeah, and those tall blonde girls with their hair in a bun....they need to be in their own class too. :lol:

BarbB
Oct. 4, 2007, 04:27 PM
This is even better than the WB/TB foodfights on the H/J forum.

:winkgrin::winkgrin:

twnkltoz
Oct. 4, 2007, 04:36 PM
"I hate people who whine about their competition"

I think Anotherround owes me an apology. What do you guys think?
Why?

dalpal
Oct. 4, 2007, 04:39 PM
"I hate people who whine about their competition"

I think Anotherround owes me an apology. What do you guys think?

I think..NO. I agree with her post.

class
Oct. 4, 2007, 05:14 PM
i think you owe the board an apology for starting such an inane topic.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 4, 2007, 05:51 PM
I don't think classes should be divvied up by WB vs non WB. I think we should call the breeds the way they do in Germany, so, all horses bred in Vermont would be Vermonters, all horses bred in Texas would be Texans, etc.

I might have to get a horse bred in PR or someplace like that to ensure my ribbon though.

Coreene
Oct. 4, 2007, 06:23 PM
Threads like this always do wonders for the lengthening of my "ignore" list. :lol:

~Freedom~
Oct. 4, 2007, 06:58 PM
I thought dressage was about your own personal journey with your own horse and you rode for the best score you could accomplish together, not where you placed in a class.

And that my friends IS CLASSICAL dressage.

Just as already stated it will require a good, sensitive, feeling rider with more fortitude than most to overcome the ensuing "gossip" that they did not do well because of one reason or another but I will wager that they will go home less stressed that the one that paid tons of money on a horse they cannot ride or a student of a trainer that will win at any cost.

Dixon
Oct. 4, 2007, 07:26 PM
Ive said this before, but i think that a better way to divide it up would be claimer classes just like the racehorses do.


I like this idea. Doesn't matter what someone paid for their horse, only how much it's worth to them that day. But I'd better not get too enthused, because on a cranky day my trainer may enter ME at a low claim price!

EqTrainer
Oct. 4, 2007, 10:29 PM
This thread begs an answer to the question:

"What does the word/term WARMBLOOD mean to people?"

To me, it means a horse of a certain type of breeding.

That's all.

It doesn't mean DRESSAGE HORSE.

I am not posting this as a WB bashing thread. I have had them, I have one now (ok, he's half WB).

PiedPiper
Oct. 5, 2007, 06:56 AM
"I hate people who whine about their competition"

I think Anotherround owes me an apology. What do you guys think?


Don't be asinine.

If you think you are owed an apology then say so but why on earth do you need to know if others agree or disagree? I feel like I am back in high school with some of the moronic comments as of late.

Janet
Oct. 5, 2007, 07:21 AM
that way everyone has a good chance at a ribbon, which is the important part. That MUST have been a joke.

I can't believe anyone would SERIOUSLY say that.

AnotherRound
Oct. 5, 2007, 07:29 AM
I was just reading this on another forum and thought it would be an interesting topic. They were discussing whether or not it would help those of us in the middle/lower classes (money) to have the Warmbloods in their own classes so that the rest of us with "mugles" can compete against each other.

Just wondering what you think??


I am sorry! Didn't I make it clear? I think the question is inane.

Anotherround: please try and keep up huh? I made it clear that I didnt agree with it and it was posted for conversation and since your included in it dont call anyone else out!

Oh no, you did NOT make it clear at ALL that you were being hypotheitcal. You sound entirely personal in your original post, so you need to get some more writing skills if you intended to be hypothetical! You included yourself when you used an "us" vs. "Them" structure to your question! Then, you clearly made it an issue of class - how did you clarify it? Oh, yes - (money). Then, you asked us what we thought. I find your ignorance and whining offensive, that's what I think.

Now you're going to Flip flop, and say, "Oh, that's wasn't MY opinion?"

Give me a break. And don't patronize people who disagree with you. You sound foolish.

Janet
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:11 AM
If that really IS what you mean, there is a perfectly good existing mechanism


GR134 Maiden, Novice, and Limit Classes.
1. Maiden, Novice and Limit classes are open to horses which have not won one/three/six first place ribbons respectively, at Regular or Dressage Competitions of The Federation or Equine Canada in the particular performance division or level in which they are shown.
2. The Maiden, Novice or Limit status of both riders and drivers is affected by winnings at Regular and Local or Dressage Competitions.
3. Ribbons won in one-horse classes do not count in reckoning the maiden,novice or limit status of either horse and/or rider/driver in any division.
4. The status of Maiden, Novice or Limit entries is as of the closing date of entries for any particular Licensed Competition.

...

11. In the Dressage division, ribbons won within one dressage level do not affect a horse’s Maiden, Novice or Limit status when shown in a higher level.
All you need to do is to get the show managers to offer the classes.

Reynard Ridge
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:16 AM
I think Anotherround owes me an apology. What do you guys think?

Nope.

Janet
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:19 AM
NOMIOMI1 said
Anotherround: please try and keep up huh? I made it clear that I didnt agree with it and it was posted for conversation and since your included in it dont call anyone else out! Unfortunately, it was not at ALL clear in the first post that you didn't agree with it.

When I went back just now to see "what other posts did NOMIOMI1 have?", I DID find one that seemed to disagree. But until I went through it SPECIFICALLY looking for posts by NOMIOMI1, it did not register that that post was made by the same person as teh original post.

And clearly SOME people DO agree with it.

TalkIsCheap
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:26 AM
This is even better than the WB/TB foodfights on the H/J forum.

:winkgrin::winkgrin:

:D

Ja Da Dee
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:46 AM
What a silly idea. If I wanted to show my Paint in breed shows with their 45 different divisions for one class, I would. I would rather show dressage against whatever comes to play that day. Sometimes I get it right, and we are accurate, rhythmic and forward and come home with a pretty ribbon. Sometimes I let his hind leg lag, hang on my right rein, or get lost in my test and we don't.

slc2
Oct. 5, 2007, 09:00 AM
every horse and rider have strengths and weaknesses, even the top riders have had horses where they had to squeeze every point out of a really good transition, good corner, obedient test. the horse that is obedient, regular and accurate and supple can win on many days without having ideal gaits.

i still don't understand what the bruhaha is. even the old masters harped constantly on how important it is to select a horse with wonderful gaits - they went on and on about gaits. pure, active, bending knees and hocks, yes, 'fancy mover'. YES, they wanted horses with a lot of suspension, lift, activity, bending the joints, forward and active. it is so much less stress on the horse to learn flying changes for example if they have a really springy canter with good suspension. it is so much easier for the horse to stay sound doing the work if he has great gaits. the horse with the flat canter or trot has to work 10x harder to half pass, do changes, etc.

SillyHorse
Oct. 5, 2007, 09:22 PM
Anotherround: please try and keep up huh? I made it clear that I didnt agree with it and it was posted for conversation and since your included in it dont call anyone else out!

Edited to say bless your poor confused little heart. Wow. That's all I can say. Wow.

Still Workingonit
Oct. 6, 2007, 01:15 AM
As I have said on another BB, having good paces on a WB€, doesnt mean that they can be any less straight, active, flexed, light etc - just when they are AND they combine it with good to excellent paces, they will score higher. I really like that, in NZ, you get points dependent on your score - I have received 14 points in our level 1 on one horse and not scored a ribbon (and I was stunned when I got those 71%s on that particular horse because he only has average paces). I have also received 14 points in our level 1 on another horse and scored the red ribbons as well (that's blue to you :) - different system)!

The latter is a 1st x Hanno; the other is a crossbred of indeterminate breeding

dwblover
Oct. 6, 2007, 01:53 AM
Wow, I would be in big trouble if that ever happened. I have an imported, registered dutch warmblood minus the amazing gaits! He is a great horse, but certainly does not possess the animated gaits I see at some shows. Just because your horse is a warmblood does not mean that they possess some supernatural power. Although it would be nice if mine did! And I also have ridden some horses that belonged to my trainer. They were exceptional movers, but they moved a lot better for her than for me. So just because you are riding an incredible horse, it doesn't guarantee an incredible score.

Sabine
Oct. 6, 2007, 02:02 AM
include in the list a class for menopausal riders, with subdivisions for post and perimenopausal.

i think a class for poorly trained horses would be a bonus too.

actually, what i'd rather have is more different awards within the show structure, some just for fun, best turnout, cutest companion dog, have some fun. smallest horse, largest horse, oldest rider showing, youngest, youngest at fei, i think a special ribbon for riders competing in their first show, oldest horse, oldest horse and rider combined years, best groom, best outfit, best turnout, best seat and hands, highest scorer on each general remark (group), awards for all the people who got over a 7 on seat and aids, awards for all horses that got high scores on gaits, awards for all horses scoring high on obedience, award for all people shipping in over a certain mileage, most exciting appearance in front of ground jury, etc. they don't have to be big expensive rewards. packs of horse treats, things like that, bigger things at bigger shows.

i actually like to see more achievement awards at shows, i think anyone who gets a good score on seat and aids should get an award, we want to encourage that right?

without having read the thread this gets my blue ribbon...LOL!- almost fell off my chair!

SillyHorse
Oct. 6, 2007, 09:10 AM
Ribbons for everyone! Hurrah!

hoopoe
Oct. 6, 2007, 09:34 AM
Horse placing third at the ABIG /USDF Training level AA last weekend Region 6 (pacific NW)

is a Thoroughbred

ridden by AA rider in her first year of Dressage

a "hunter conversion"

I am so proud of her for riding the socks off this test on her handsome balanced fellow. Precise thoughtful riding producede a quality test. The rider made the difference in taking this horse into the ribbons

She had done that regularly throughout the season. This was a large section with well over 20 horses entered.

Yes many of them WB and some very likely HOY top 20 T-AA

If showing was about just getting ribbons I would have quit long ago :o

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 6, 2007, 10:57 AM
For me, it's about the ribbons. For Ted, it's getting to walk down the aisles of the barns and snatch at everyone's hay as he walks by.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 6, 2007, 11:21 AM
...or, like me, you can have the Hodges Ribbon Co bookmarked on your computer...

Donella
Oct. 6, 2007, 12:34 PM
i still don't understand what the bruhaha is. even the old masters harped constantly on how important it is to select a horse with wonderful gaits - they went on and on about gaits. pure, active, bending knees and hocks, yes, 'fancy mover'. YES, they wanted horses with a lot of suspension, lift, activity, bending the joints, forward and active. it is so much less stress on the horse to learn flying changes for example if they have a really springy canter with good suspension. it is so much easier for the horse to stay sound doing the work if he has great gaits. the horse with the flat canter or trot has to work 10x harder to half pass, do changes, etc

EXACTLY. It's not like every warmblood posses's these gait's either, it's just more common because it is bred for. I was thinking about this the other day as I was watching a stallion video and I thought to myself "isn't dressage often considered ART?", don't we want it to look as beautiful as possible. From many of the "classic" books I have read, I got the impression beauty and art were a huge part of dressage. I don't know about you guys, but I definately feel that a horse with athleticism and lofty, floating gaits looks MUCH more beautiful than one without those qualities, assuming both are correct. When a horse moves with so much suspension and power, it looks easy and in fact, it is easier for the horse to do his job...and shouldn't that be important? Why did we alll FREAK for Blue Hors Matine? Because she is TALENTED in her gaits, she has unreal suspension, she is uber athletic and performs a passage and piaffe that comes EASY to her and because she is so gifted, it looks beautiful!

So why should beauty and art no longer be part of the picture when we are talking about dressage? If it were all about horses just completing a pattern, to see who is the most correct..good lord, would ANYONE have an interest in it? Where is the excitement in that? The thrill of dressage for most of us lies in watching a supreme athlete do upper level movements and make it look so easy that it becomes beautiful. Take that away, and I certainly have no interest in the sport anymore. Not only that, if gaits and TALENT don't matter,I fail to see how it could even be considered a competative sport.

On another note, I fail to see how it is even fair to take a horse who is not blessed with excellent athleticism and very good gaits, collectability ect and try and make them do upper level work. It isn't fair, and it often looks exactly as it should..like a struggle and there is nothing beautiful about that. I dunno, go watch a video of the horses in this years international competition, look at the gaits. Ask yourself how many non wb's you know that move anything like that. It isn't some political conspiracy or something...they are simply bred to be top class athletes in this sport, and so a higher percentage of them are more suited to the job. I am sorry if that makes some people mad, but it is how it is. Tb's tend to run faster than my belgian cross too...and no, it is not a conspiracy or a "fad" either. It's reality.

grayarabpony
Oct. 6, 2007, 12:43 PM
Any good horse, trained and ridden properly, can compete against a warmblood. Yes, it's hard, but wouldn't you love to beat a $50K horse that's not through his back and the rider is bouncing around like crazy on him?

petitefilly
Oct. 7, 2007, 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbB
<This is even better than the WB/TB foodfights on the H/J forum. >



Food fights????? Me with all these mashed potatoes, no one invited me...wahhhh!

~Freedom~
Oct. 7, 2007, 07:00 PM
Any good horse, trained and ridden properly, can compete against a warmblood. Yes, it's hard, but wouldn't you love to beat a $50K horse that's not through his back and the rider is bouncing around like crazy on him?

I already did exactly that. Felt wonderful.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Oct. 7, 2007, 10:13 PM
I enjoy doing that as well. Me, clueless, with my l'il old OTTB.

Actually, I enjoy beating anyone I can. What is not fun is when you get beaten by some eleven year olds on their ponies. I try and avoid that.

Eireamon
Oct. 7, 2007, 11:27 PM
As someone who rides a warmblood but has been beaten in the past by Appaloosas, Quarter Horses, Draught Crosses and just about everything in between in the past I would welcome a WB only class. :) Saves me the humiliation of getting beaten by a non dressage breed.

Sorry but the subject is entirely silly. Not all WBs are fabulous movers or temperamented and anyone who thinks that just because they are WBs they are better needs to get out more.

I personally have even beaten my own WB in a test on my ISH who has pretty pokey paces.
What she lacks in paces she makes up in with her absolute dead accuracy and rock solid temperament.

ESG
Oct. 7, 2007, 11:41 PM
Oh sweet bejayzus. Is a ribbon so important?

Apparently. :rolleyes:

flshgordon
Oct. 8, 2007, 10:32 AM
I already did exactly that. Felt wonderful.


Why does it feel more wonderful than doing it WITH a warmblood??:confused: This is such crap....people should be happy when they do well in a test no matter what breed it is, why is there always this "I want to do it on an un-traditional breed just to stick it to those WB folks". That's at least as bad as thinking that you HAVE TO have a WB to compete well.

It's good riding people, it doesn't matter what kind of freakin horse you are on unless it trips over its own feet....then maybe you should consider upgrading :rolleyes:

~Freedom~
Oct. 8, 2007, 10:55 AM
Originally Posted by ~Freedom~
I already did exactly that. Felt wonderful.


Why does it feel more wonderful than doing it WITH a warmblood??

Maybe you misunderstood. It felt wonderful to ride a horse I could afford ( it didn't happen to be a WB) train it myself for the sheer joy of putting in my own effort and obviously training and riding it properly as I received champion many times and made it to FEI.

I do have a WB cross now and yes he is also at FEI

CatOnLap
Oct. 8, 2007, 11:01 AM
Is no-one on this board over 30? Does no-one except Velvet remember back to the late 1980's/early 1990's when many dressage clubs had exactly that sort of division in their classes? We did- we had "warmblood/WB-X" classes and "Other breed" classes. What happened to them?
Well, almost no-one made it past 3rd level, so anyone who could ride advanced really didn't care if they competed against WB's or not! So to fill out the classes, everything above second level was "open". And at the lower levels, it just seemed silly to make the distinction when all you're doing is W-T-C and leg yields, basically. So eventually we dropped the WB/nonWB divisions.

Why do people at the lower levels care? The ones at the top do not.

Then there was a kerfuffle about ammy versus pro. When our club went to "percent days" and your entries were reduced by $2 if you didn't care if you didn't get a ribbon, all the pro's cancelled their ribbons, took the cheaper entry fee and mostly still kicked butt. But it didn't matter because the ribbons/placings were based on percent score. So you could have half a dozen people scoring first, with scores over 67% or something. It does help eliminate some of the ribbon envy that seems rampant as a motivator for these artificial divisions. And it does deflate some egos that arise from getting a first place ribbon in a class of mediocre rides where the first place score is 53%.

Now they still have junior and open division, which allows the juniors to show open and kick our aging butts too! Damn whippersnappers! Keep them down in their junior division, I say ( NOT!) ( I am looking forward to joining the "century club" in dressage though- thats where your age and the age of your horse =100. By the time I am 65, I will have a 35 year old warmblood... heehee. Or maybe when I am 75, I will have 2-25 year old grade horses... and I want a honking big ribbon JUST FOR SHOWING UP)

Ted the Peep 'Ho
Oct. 8, 2007, 11:03 AM
Frankly, I have always felt that I was in a class by myself.

grayarabpony
Oct. 8, 2007, 11:31 AM
Frankly, I have always felt that I was in a class by myself.
:lol:

I don't have anything against warmbloods myself, as I own a TB/ Hanov. cross. My own reply and probably several others are in reaction to many responses on this BB that state that without a warmblood you can't go anywhere in dressage. Which is just silly. There are warmbloods who aren't fantastic movers or are better suited to show jumpers or eventing, and horses of other breeds who are fantastic movers who make wonderful dressage horses. Yes, I know, TBs are bred to race, but many of the most beautiful movers I have ever seen were TBs.

~Freedom~
Oct. 8, 2007, 12:11 PM
Is no-one on this board over 30? Does no-one except Velvet remember back to the late 1980's/early 1990's when many dressage clubs had exactly that sort of division in their classes? We did- we had "warmblood/WB-X" classes and "Other breed" classes. What happened to them?
Well, almost no-one made it past 3rd level, so anyone who could ride advanced really didn't care if they competed against WB's or not!


I don't remember separate classes. Maybe they were is specific regions?

CatOnLap
Oct. 8, 2007, 12:16 PM
Probably Freedom. I was a regional director at the time. The arguments for them were exactly as people have stated here. We tried it at the regional and local levels for about 2 years but never took the proposal to the national level because of the reasons I've already stated.