Crossed Sabers: so sorry, but we're closing down!

[AnotherRound]

If this was posted before, my apologies. However, I think this is a new development:http://www.crossedsabers.com/ABOUT%20US/SWAP_Black_List.htm

I edited the title to reflect the correct "rescue". Sorry for the misleading past title.

[AnotherRound]

Oh, this was already posted on the "Black List" thread. So sorry.

[BuddyRoo]

That's about the least professional "press release" statement I've ever read.

[caffeinated]

I wonder if she's really (finally) under IRS investigation...

[shireluver]

Dang it, by the title of the thread, I was hoping CBER (Columbia Basin Equine Rescue) was shutting down. :D

I got my hopes up for nothing :no:

Oh, well, I will just keep waiting for that announcement to be posted one of these days :cool:

[cleartheoxer]

Does anyone here personally know these people? I don't have time to read ALL of the stuff they have written (not that I want to) I just can't believe how weird the whole situation is. Are the people on their black list really "bad" people or what? Jeepers, what a wreck.

[talloaks]

Dang it, by the title of the thread, I was hoping CBER (Columbia Basin Equine Rescue) was shutting down. :D

I got my hopes up for nothing :no:

Oh, well, I will just keep waiting for that announcement to be posted one of these days :cool:


What's with these people, the Columbia Basin Equine Rescue??? I think I send them a donation in the last year or two, big mistake eh??

[Chester's Mom]

What's with these people, the Columbia Basin Equine Rescue??? I think I send them a donation in the last year or two, big mistake eh??

Oh my! Please do not start that trainwreck.... PM me if you need more info

[summerhorse]

What's with these people, the Columbia Basin Equine Rescue??? I think I send them a donation in the last year or two, big mistake eh??

I would say so... but the past is past, just move on. =)

[Sarabeth]

"We will be raising money to move back to our old farm"

Goodness! As if she didn't raise far more than enough to move to her current exceptionally luxurious accommodations.

[CelticReinRescue]

They do this about once a year.......it seems to have become their annual fundraiser. I've never seen anything quite like it.

Do a google search on Crossed Sabers, Second Wind Adoption and their 'Executor".

If you've got about 6 hours with nothing to do, go to this COTH thread and read away. It will reveal some very interesting things.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=69766

[CelticReinRescue]

If this was posted before, my apologies. However, I think this is a new development:http://www.crossedsabers.com/ABOUT%20US/SWAP_Black_List.htm

They've changed it on the website. This is the original:

Sadly, we've realized we must close down the adoption program. No one is adopting the dogs or the horses and we can't afford to keep them. Tomorrow I'm due another feed delivery that costs us $1680. for each delivery and only lasts us a month and we don't have the money. Additionally I've realized that I've moved in with a man who is a liar, a slob and an alcoholic and he does not care about these animals at all, he's selfish and only cares about himself. I believe he even lied about his horse experience as he is dangerous in the barn. He's drunk most mornings by about 8am and even drives drunk so he's going to kill someone. I really want no part of that, he just has some serious problems and dishonesty that we just can't live with.

This does not release any adopters from their adoption contracts and we will continue to help adopters place their horses from their homes when they can no longer keep them. I will continue to do this forever and be around to enforce and support the existing contracts with adopters but we are no longer taking horses and dogs here and we must place all these animals that we have immediately as we just do not have the funds to take care of them or feed them. This is an urgent request that should be cross posted, we need homes for all these horses and dogs.

We will be raising money to move back to our old farm and maybe eventually we can get on our feet to eventually and start over but I suspect it may take years to repair this damage that has taken place from this upheaval and the months we spent preparing for the move, the move itself and the months that its taken us to get settled in and be functional. Anyone who has the heart to help it would be much appreciated. It cost us at least 12.5k to move and sadly we are no where where we should be to be ready for winter so we may even lose our old farm. Ed promised to help us get stable but he's now reneging on all his promises. That is what I get for trusting someone.

Thank you all for your continued friendship, inspiration and support,


Celeita A.Kramer
Celeita A. Kramer, Founder, Executor & Stable Owner
SWAP International HQ at Crossed Sabers Stable
New Address: HC 69 Box 28, Rt 18 Josephs Mills, Alma, WV 26320
Office: 304-758-2384 or 304-758-2471,
Guest House: 304-758-2390 Stable: 304-758-2352
web site: http://www.crossedsabers.com/


"Where Dreams become Reality, See the Vision, Live the Dream"
Celebrating 11 years of service to horses and the horse Industry, 1996 - 2007

[Aimee Thanatogenus]

Not like CBER isn't getting the cash cow working directly with a feedlot operator.

Buck$$$$$$$

Shame on them.

[Critters Everywhere]

Not like CBER isn't getting the cash cow working directly with a feedlot operator.

Buck$$$$$$$

Shame on them.


You're right about CBER, but the above quote was from Crossed Sabers.


Never ceases to amaze (and depress. and disgust.) me how vulnerable entitites whether they be horses, dogs, cats, or even human children bring out the psychos who claim to be saving while really they cause far more harm then those they rant against. :sigh:

Even more depressing is seeing how good they are at recruiting well-meaning, innocent dupes to their cause. <shaking head> I see at least 2 'rescue' groups that were recommended by innocent well-meaning folk on today's board alone that I wouldn't trust with my childhood Breyer collection, let alone a living horse.

:no:

I miss ignorance...I slept a lot better at night back then. :(

[CarouselPony]

Dang it, by the title of the thread, I was hoping CBER (Columbia Basin Equine Rescue) was shutting down. :D

I got my hopes up for nothing :no:

Oh, well, I will just keep waiting for that announcement to be posted one of these days :cool:

:lol:

[EponaRoan]

Gee, I was getting all excited thinking that not one, but two questionable rescues were closing down!

Another Round, you may want to edit your subject line so that people aren't confused. CBER and SWAP/Crossed Sabres are not the same rescue.

[snkstacres]

Boy, I guess I missed a lot. I too thought it was CBER but never heard of Crossed Sabres. Are they affiliated seeing as they use the same initials and hey, you guys helped pay for her move????????????????????From WV to WA. wow. Now she needs to move back to the old farm which wasnt good enough then????????

[Laurierace]

I agree, please correct the title to ease keeping the crappy, wanna be rescues straight.

[AnotherRound]

Wow, did I ever blow this thread. Sorry. Crossed Sabers. Dang. Really sorry. I'll try to fix the title. Have to find out how.

[AnotherRound]

So, there is a discussion about this going on another thread, and maybe Erin can close this one.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=69766&page=40

[PalominoMorgan]

Geee.... I'd love to send a donation (cough, sputter, GAG), but their "director" has long since blocked my email addresses from a conversation I tried to have with her years ago. Oh well.... hopefully the horses will find a decent home/end and she'll crawl under a rock somewhere and disappear.

[ravenclaw]

No one is adopting the dogs or the horses and we can't afford to keep them.
Well....maybe there is no one to adopt them because all the potential homes have been blacklisted. :rolleyes::winkgrin:

[EponaRoan]

Boy, I guess I missed a lot. I too thought it was CBER but never heard of Crossed Sabres. Are they affiliated seeing as they use the same initials and hey, you guys helped pay for her move????????????????????From WV to WA. wow. Now she needs to move back to the old farm which wasnt good enough then????????

Two totally different recues and people on different sides of the country. As far as I know, they are affiliated in no way.

[caffeinated]

gosh, could you imagine if they did get together?

[CelticReinRescue]

I would love to know exactly what "type" of help she was looking for, although I have a pretty darn good idea. :lol:

I imagine that if other rescues contacted her offering to take in some of her horses, they'd darn well be asked to pay her 'slightly' :no: inflated 'adoption' fees.

She is not closing down, I can almost guarantee it - I will find other information from her over the years where she cries the same thing, gets her mortgage paid for with money left to spare and then finds another emergency situaiton where yet another HUGE lump sum payment needs to be made in order to keep her afloat, as well as the ever so common pleas that......horses aren't being adopted (to add dogs now as well, some of which she took in and then returned to the shelter again, poor things), they have no money to pay feed, vet, farrier, yadda, yadda, yadda.


With adoption fee's like some of the ones she charges, we'd be well in the green here! Maybe if she gave up some of those luxuries, she could afford a food delivery, I mean, it's what, corn that she feeds them there?

Go read her blacklist on her website......I have never seen a rescue have so many issues with adopters starving, abusing, selling, sending to auction, disappearing with the horses or killing them in all of my life.

As far as the validity of her "blacklist", let me just say this. She had a very good friend and associate rescue organization that I know well, have met personally and worked with on many rescue situations. The woman who runs this particular rescue is of the purest of hearts and I know that for a fact. I will NOT associate Celtic Rein's name with many rescues, but I most certainly do and will continue to with Kathy. She is true-blue and works hard to help horses in need.

So, because a 'rival' rescue in the same area (she is Kathy's rival, Kathy is not her rival as she doesn't entertain childish behavior) became friendly with Celetia at SWAP, she posted Kathy's rescue on her blacklist saying that Kathy doesn't have a facility of her own and depends on foster homes (which are wonderful and heavily monitored by Kath) which made her a horse neglector and dealer. That is the most laughable thing I've ever read, however, poor Kathy was devasted. Kathy transferred a rescue horse to us and her and I are very good friends, and Kathy and I signed a contract between ourselves pertaining to that particular horse!

At the threat of a libel suit, which our attorney agreed to proceed with pro bono for Kathy against SWAP, the atrociously false information was promptly removed from the infamous "blacklist".

I imagine that if you piss her off, or she is friendly with someone who wants to see someone taken down, you secure yourself a spot on her lovely blacklist.

As a rescue, I would be ashamed to post the things that she does there - I would also seriously look over my adoption criteria to figure out why so many of our adopted horses are being starved, killed, abandoned, sold illegally, abused, etc... and why their owners are 'misrepresenting' so much without my ability to uncover it before the horse is sent to them.

Seriously, those who haven't had the pleasure of reading the "Blacklist" thread, pick a time when you have some hours to spare, grab a cup of coffee and read away. There are many links to where she's used this "We're closing, we need help........cough........LOTS OF MONEY" before. If it wasn't all so sad, it would be comical.

I completely and totally understand why rescues get the name they do.....this woman is the queen of bad rescue representation.

[DopyDgz]

I'm confused.... I followed the link on the original post and just got the page about balcklisted adopters etc, nothing about Crossed Sabers closing down... and how did CBER get into this?

:confused:

[caffeinated]

CBER's totally not involved, the OP mistakenly wrote "CBER" in the title instead of "crossed sabers" when it was first posted. CBER is carrying on like normal.

the press release from Celeita is on page 39 of the blacklist thread. It's... wacky.

[hundredacres]

Dang it, by the title of the thread, I was hoping CBER (Columbia Basin Equine Rescue) was shutting down. :D

I got my hopes up for nothing :no:

Oh, well, I will just keep waiting for that announcement to be posted one of these days :cool:

Don't despair, they'll get theirs too. But be glad Crossed Sabers is shutting down...be very glad!

[DopyDgz]

But is CS closing down? There isn;t anything saying that on the page the OP linked to - at least not now. :confused:

[elmerandharriet]

so i read on their boarding page if im not wrong it says theres a 5.00 fee daily for adding supplements to a feed... well i would be screwed with two horses on supplements thats 10.00 a day

[BarbB]

I contacted Second Wind years ago when I was shopping around for OTTBs. It was weird. They basically wanted to have TOTAL control over the animal, but you foot the bills. I mean down to what the horse was fed and how often it was ridden. I ran away. I didn't realize they were still around, I would have thought that they would put themselves out of business years ago.

[caffeinated]

But is CS closing down? There isn;t anything saying that on the page the OP linked to - at least not now. :confused:

I don't know where the press release came from or where it is on the site (the OP links to the blacklist but it's not there)... here it is again for your reading pleasure:

Sadly, we've realized we must close down the adoption program. No one is adopting the dogs or the horses and we can't afford to keep them. Tomorrow I'm due another feed delivery that costs us $1680. for each delivery and only lasts us a month and we don't have the money. Additionally I've realized that I've moved in with a man who is a liar, a slob and an alcoholic and he does not care about these animals at all, he's selfish and only cares about himself. I believe he even lied about his horse experience as he is dangerous in the barn. He's drunk most mornings by about 8am and even drives drunk so he's going to kill someone. I really want no part of that, he just has some serious problems and dishonesty that we just can't live with.

This does not release any adopters from their adoption contracts and we will continue to help adopters place their horses from their homes when they can no longer keep them. I will continue to do this forever and be around to enforce and support the existing contracts with adopters but we are no longer taking horses and dogs here and we must place all these animals that we have immediately as we just do not have the funds to take care of them or feed them. This is an urgent request that should be cross posted, we need homes for all these horses and dogs.

We will be raising money to move back to our old farm and maybe eventually we can get on our feet to eventually and start over but I suspect it may take years to repair this damage that has taken place from this upheaval and the months we spent preparing for the move, the move itself and the months that its taken us to get settled in and be functional. Anyone who has the heart to help it would be much appreciated. It cost us at least 12.5k to move and sadly we are no where where we should be to be ready for winter so we may even lose our old farm. Ed promised to help us get stable but he's now reneging on all his promises. That is what I get for trusting someone.

Thank you all for your continued friendship, inspiration and support,


Celeita A.Kramer
Celeita A. Kramer, Founder, Executor & Stable Owner
SWAP International HQ at Crossed Sabers Stable
New Address: HC 69 Box 28, Rt 18 Josephs Mills, Alma, WV 26320
Office: 304-758-2384 or 304-758-2471,
Guest House: 304-758-2390 Stable: 304-758-2352
web site: http://www.crossedsabers.com/

The consensus is that they're not really closing but doing the same old routine of crying "desperate for money, need to close up!" to get donations and more money from people.

[bossmare1234]

Well, I see that both farms are being operated, I guess she received enough donations for this time. Whatever happened to the thread (Wow have you seen this blacklist of horse adopters?)?? That must have been one of the longest threads I've seen!

[elmerandharriet]

did anyone see the brand that she wants to start branding her horses with giant SWAP and its super ugly too

[Cherry]

Does anyone know the history of Second Wind??? It seems to me it was run by another woman (with a German name and accent) decades ago out of Maryland--she took in Standardbreds off the track. Then I heard she died and this other person took over Second Wind..... Does anyone know???

[Tiempo]

did anyone see the brand that she wants to start branding her horses with giant SWAP and its super ugly too

Good grief.

[jengersnap]

did anyone see the brand that she wants to start branding her horses with giant SWAP and its super ugly too

Oh my word! :eek:

http://www.crossedsabers.com/OUR%20HORSES/Brands_%26_Microchips.htm

[LexInVA]

Does anyone know the history of Second Wind??? It seems to me it was run by another woman (with a German name and accent) decades ago out of Maryland--she took in Standardbreds off the track. Then I heard she died and this other person took over Second Wind..... Does anyone know???

Yeah that's what it says on the website. The founder was her (Kramer/whatever her real name is) mentor or some such thing.

[Tiempo]

Oh my word! :eek:

http://www.crossedsabers.com/OUR%20HORSES/Brands_%26_Microchips.htm

Blech. Couldn't she have at least designed something attractive?

[J Swan]

Great.

On one butt cheek is SWAP -and other the cheek she can brand, TRADE. Then on the neck she can brand SELL.

That would be, at least, an accurate description of her business. Cuz it sure as heck ain't a charity.

AR- shame on you. I thought she was really closing down this time. Teaser!

[PalominoMorgan]

Blech. Couldn't she have at least designed something attractive?

Might have to do more than just bend coat hangers to make the branding iron then though. It's not like there are any good Sabre logos out there. *eye roll* http://a292.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/92/l_b28b952b3bd593e78353e7946414646b.jpg Of course maybe it's just because my favorite team is the Buffalo Sabres. Plenty of good ideas there. Then again the whole place is a train wreck. Why I waste time and energy... who knows? The woman drives me batshit if I think about it too long.

[AnotherRound]

Great.

On one butt cheek is SWAP -and other the cheek she can brand, TRADE. Then on the neck she can brand SELL.

That would be, at least, an accurate description of her business. Cuz it sure as heck ain't a charity.

AR- shame on you. I thought she was really closing down this time. Teaser!

Gee so did I. I have just been deleting emails I get from Second wind. How did I get on their email list? I should have read them to see what stupidness they are cooking up.

Is there no way to stop this tool?

[EponaRoan]

Whatever happened to the thread (Wow have you seen this blacklist of horse adopters?)?? That must have been one of the longest threads I've seen!

It apparently was successfully wished into the cornfield by the mods because it's gone, gone, gone. I'm sorry they decided to remove it - there was a lot of useful information on there about the 'rescue' and the 'executor'.

[2ndyrgal]

Several years ago I was looking to place a horse for adoption. So I spoke with her, but got a feeling it wasn't quite "right". Told her I'd think about it, but truth was, I thought she was a bit off and not quite truthful. For weeks afterward I got horrible phone calls and messages threatening me with legal proceedings if I didn't send them my horse immediately as they had already "placed" it. I had my brother the lawyer call and back her off. Why hasn't someone stopped her yet? It's obvious to even the most casual observer she's nuts.

[Appassionato]

I thought she was really closing down this time.

I did too! Read the whole thread, something I got irritated about others NOT doing on the original thread ("Golly geez, how can we help?" :rolleyes::dead:), yet here I am disappointed that she is indeed NOT shut down and the publicity has probably rolled in more money for her. :mad::mad::mad:

[FlashGordon]

Ok I have not followed this whole saga... but a weird incident.... I worked at a summer camp for several years and this local woman, who used to take a few of our horses on lease each winter, was constantly pushing the Second Wind literature on the camp owner. Said she should retire her older horses w/ SW and was very insistent upon it.

Camp owner was indifferent and pretty much ignored her but I always remembered those conversations, and cannot for the life of me figure out how this woman was involved in Second Wind and why she was pushing so darn hard to get us to retire our older horses w/ them.

[bossmare1234]

Well, I guess as long as she has ignorant people donating her money she will stay in business. I myself don't regard her as a rescue/or even adoption, I think she is just being a horse dealer under disguise as a rescue. I wouldn't know why people would donate horses to her, they really can't take a tax deduction, one of these days someone will get caught. I've heard of other people that called her about donating and then she harasses them. I think she stays on the computer 24/7, I've heard that she stays in the house all the time, that even if someone comes to the farm, noone ever sees her, only her staff.

[toomanyhorses]

Sorry I am new to this thread and have just been catching up on it. I went to that crazy woman's web site and was amazed. I have two questions.
1. How can she be a rescue and people donate to her? It doesn't say anywhere on her site that she is a non profit 501 (c) 3
2. How can anyone have so many issues with contracts and horses being starved and neglected as this? And how do so many of the people on the list have multiple horses?

[minnie]

I was looking for the original thread too. Why would that be removed?

[LexInVA]

I'm starting to think there might be some kind of group moneymaking scheme going on here. That or she's really good at getting ignorant people to fall for her tricks.

[bossmare1234]

Looking at the brand, did a child do that, sure looks like it. I would say that Crossed Sabers is just a horse dealer with the cover of a rescue/adoption.

[caffeinated]

Sorry I am new to this thread and have just been catching up on it. I went to that crazy woman's web site and was amazed. I have two questions.
1. How can she be a rescue and people donate to her? It doesn't say anywhere on her site that she is a non profit 501 (c) 3
2. How can anyone have so many issues with contracts and horses being starved and neglected as this? And how do so many of the people on the list have multiple horses?

1- she's not, really. She has people believing in it as a nonprofit "retirement" or placement service, when really she's basically acting as a dealer. There is no 501(c)3, apparently, either.

2- um, because she's likely off kilter. The deleted thread went into a lot of detail on this, along with the "other side of the story" from several of the people on her list. I won't go into detail except that after reading "the other side" of some of those stories, I'm inclined to believe that the problem with all those transactions/adoptions was the common denominator... SWAP.

A real shame the other thread seems to have disappeared, there was a lot of good info there for people thinking of dealing with the program.

[Anne FS]

Ok, Mods: here's a request to put the original SWAP thread either in "Reference" or "Favorites."

Nothing is ever truly deleted in cyberspace, so it can be retrieved from the server somewhere.

[TB or not TB?]

Gosh, I have less than $100 in my bank account at the moment.... I'd be happy to take your donations! Oh, and IF I DONT GET ANY MONEY ALL MY FISH WILL GO HUNGRY AND I MIGHT HAVE TO CANCEL THE CABLE TV! :lol:

[Tiempo]

That woman has some serious bats in her belfry.

[BuddyRoo]

Who puts that shit on the INTERNET for crying out loud?

[donkeyman]

I see trainwreck here....people dont want to see your personal problems and bad decisions posted here. What you sent to the court indicates you and Ed need serious mental counseling. It also demonstrates you should NOT be running a rescue or provided funds as you cannot even handle your personal life nor see the flags.....how you can advise the court that this man promised this and that and you put all your eggs in his basket.

There is no doubt you are owed something for selling your farm and moving. That said, you will NOT get a lawyer with this kind of mud slinging.

Regardless of all this, you obviously have a heart in wanting to care for your animals and I do wish you luck in completely downsizing to allow you to get your life in order. You should adopt nothing more. Your not stable to have more animals.

How can we be assured that any donations go to these animals and NOT your legal problems?

[Wanderluster]

So if her ring is four karats ( instead of four carrots ) can't she sell it and move on ?
So many crazy people so little time... :confused:

[griffox]

It's a long one, but a good one:


This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message or use of its address book, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited, by opening this email you as the addressed recipient agree to this policy. If you have received a quarterly newsletter or any other news items from SWAP and want to be removed from our distribution list, please email us with a request to remove from the email address you want removed. Thank you all for your continued friendship and support.

Ooooh! You're in trouble now. You're going on the Black List and her lawers will be notifying you shortly. This means she's going to need more donations, folks so get out your check books and let the healing begin. :lol:

[LEC Trail Rider]

I wondered if any of you received this email - YUP - amusing isn't it?? Total LOON.

First thing I thought was, SELL THE FREAKING FOUR CARROT RING, ya dumb broad!

[LexInVA]

I'm thinking a field trip is sounding mighty interesting right about now....:D

[Dressage4Fun]

I got that in my FREAKING email!!! HOW did I RATE!?!?!?

Sell the F***ing ring and buy a new place!! better yet,, place some of those high dollar horses!!

[clanter]

I think I have figured this out, every Dark of the Moon phase Parelli and Cross Saber threads come out

[minnie]

OMG! She rambled on and on and on in a letter to the COURT? This almost qualifies for entry into the Ripley "BELIEVE IT OR NOT" category. Where to begin....LOL! First of all, it's pretty evident the lady's oil does not reach her dipstick, she's 2 quarts short of a pint and all that. Ed lived with her at the other farm for months and she didn't notice he's an alcoholic? He changed drastically once she moved in with him at the new farm? Obviously she drove him to drink! (snicker) So many inconsistancies I can hardly believe it. I can't believe ANYONE reading this would actually send her money or help her out. It's sooooo over the top. According to her, they've been making $200k plus on her "business" - which pretty much cements into place the fact that she's a horse dealer, masquerading as an adoption. And her comments about the AMOUNTS the man is drinking. According to her, 3 cases of beer and some wine on Christmas Day alone. According to my calculations, even if the man were physically able to consume that amount and remain awake for 12 hours, he'd be drinking a beer every 10 minutes and I haven't allowed for the wine. She's depleted his account from 850k down to 300k and she's pretty livid that he has a lot of money and she hasn't been able to put her little pinkies on it. And it really galls her that he gets over 5k/month in retirement. Since she didn't want to leave her new lavish farm, once he wanted to sell it (it WAS purchased with his money) she was obviously painting a black picture to anyone who would listen to make sure it wouldn't sell and she wouldn't have to move. The more I read the more my jaw dropped to the floor in disbelief. I would LOVE to see the "exit plan" she presented to him that he ignored. I'm guessing 100k or better. What a nut job! She's entitled? God help us all. Poor man. I'd be drinking too!

[anuphillbattle]

My post disappeared:eek:

YES - she is NOT 501(c)3 and may NEVER have been. She has lied about it for YEARS!! Her OLD website used to say she was 501(c) 3. People have been taking IRS charitable deductions for years! and the IRS harrasses the poor soul who forgets to include his $500 interest earned on savings !! She should be in jail...surely she has never filed Income Tax on the $200K + that her 'business earned' and over how many years!! And for the people she has mislead into taking false deductions. She told me they've been doing it for 10 yrs. and no one has been audited - also apparently not true according to info on the deleted thread.

HE paid for the move to HIS farm! SHE never sold the old farm which was bought by SWAP funds and previous founder of the Standardbred rescue Second Wind. There have been MANY fundraisers!! There are a lot of inconsistencies in this.

She has a contractual OBLIGATION to the people she accepted horses from...she CAN'T just not have a rescue, go back to her farm and run a business ( of boarding, training, selling etc) independent of SWAP. If she does, then she has solicited money for a charity under false pretenses and that too is punishable by imprisonment.

My friend was one who was suckered in by the idea of the program ( before the website got so whacky) and volunteered 1000's of hours including mediating many disagreements with adopters, fielding phone calls regarding complaints about HOW some of the adoption horses were living, working and being cared for...all in violation of the 'requirements'... and having nothing done by SWAP to remedy the situations. When she questioned the 501(c)3 status,she was sent a vile, threatening email by Celeita, full of 'F' words enough to make a sailor blush.

Hopefully someone copied the previous 'blacklist' thread to CD.

Ironically, both my friend and I received the email :confused:...though we were vehemently advised to 'stay the 'F... away from my program' by Celeita.:eek:

[blackstallion]

29 "rescued" horses = $160,000 ??? On what planet?!

Man am I in the wrong business. I should have been a con woman. I wonder how much money she has blown in the last 10 years on her 38,000 lbs of "personal stuff". "Her farm" whose mortgage was paid via "donations" to SWAP was on the market. I'm guessing that it didn't sell and now she has run through all of Ed's money and she's got to think up a new gimmick to get more money out of the donors, but her shady business practices are catching up with her and donations are probably down a little bit. If you give some people enough rope, in the end they will eventually hang themselves.

Sell the horses you can't provide for, give the ring back to Ed if you have no intention of marrying him and give it a rest all ready!

[andalusian64]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my opinion, Crossed Sabers is nothing more than an elaborate auction scheme without any checks and balances because it is overseen by one person who is not accountable to anyone. I have a good friend who questioned the operation's ethics, (i.e. adopting over 10 horses to one person without personally checking them out, begging for donations on the internet without any financial accountability, lack of time spent with the horses by the executor of the program), only to have himself cursed out in e-mail and blacklisted on Crossed Sabers webpage.

I would never allow one of my horses or any of my money to go into that program. In my opinion, all needy horses would be better off at other legitimate rescue programs that do offer accountability.

Please help the horses by telling everyone you know NOT to donate to Crossed Sabers. Instead, send your donations to legitimate rescues.

[J Swan]

I weep for the animals stuck in the middle of this mess. :cry:

[Laurierace]

Is Celeita a third Spears sibling? That seems right up there with the Britney saga, I bet the paparazzi could get some interesting photos of this mess.
I have to admit I felt a little bad for this woman as I scanned through that letter. Even though she is a criminal in my opinion, it does sound like she is in a bad place right now. But then I remembered that the universe has a way of evening things out, perhaps this is her payback?

[caffeinated]

Laurie, I would feel bad for her, but how much of it is true?

After all the blacklist things where she made all these accusations about people, I'm willing to bet that the majority of what she's saying about Ed has little or no basis in truth.

Big old mess. I just hope the horses get out of it OK.

[NEEDS A NAP]

Sigh...I too got this e-mail. You may all remember my long, rambling post of a while back about my experiences with donating and attempting to adopt....although now that I think back on it, all my positive dealings with the donation process were with an assistant she had at the time, who was very helpful, not the big lady herself....

What I am wondering is, did anyone who is still on the e-mail list get the one around the end of the year (or maybe it was on her website at that time), saying everything was peachy keen and THANKING Ed Hogan as one of her major supporters, saying that he had contributed nearly $1 million dollars to buy the new property, pay off the old one, etc.

This after the October rant about how he was a drunk, etc., and she had had no idea of his true character. Then at Christmas he goes back to being the good guy? Maybe he got her a big present!

I guess now he is back to being a drunk? This sounds like a very volatile relationship gone bad, and as everyone says the animals are caught in the middle.

Major sigh...you would thinks people in their 50's would be a little more mature, or at least private! My brother is a lawyer who I used to work for, and he back in the dark ages, clerked for a judge. Those kinds of personal details in letters sent to court do not help at all. In fact, they usually make the writer the butt of many jokes. If she is really devoted to the horses, she can carve herself out a little room/space in the old farm and live there until she gets a job. Double up the kids or sleep on the floor! Too bad there is no swimming pool at the old place!

I am on the phone, e-mail or whatever to the adoper of our horse right now, because if there ever was a perfect time to cut ties and assume ownership of her without all the ridiculous rules, this is it.

[arabhorse2]

I got it too! :mad:

I've tried to block her e-mail addy, but somehow every time she sends out one of her warped, insane missives, it ends up in my inbox!

I just want her to go far, far away. Like Antarctica....

[flshgordon]

My gelding would like a 4 CARROT ring with his dinner tonight!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jack05]

I remember running across Crossed Sabres online many years ago. Then, the website was professional, easy to navigate, the horses seemed like actual rescue horses. Since then, their website (have never "done business" with them personally) had turned into a blue link maze leading from one random page to the next with randomness thrown in between, difficult to navigate, and the website seeming more like an online horse auction than anything else. Most of the horses I see on their site have nothing wrong with them and are being "adopted out" at sale prices. Do they do rescue consignments or something?

Random statements taken from their website:

"$100. Down/$100. a month Adoption Special"

"This is not an adoption auction, its first come, best home, first serve so don't wait!!"

"50% off any horse adoption when you adopt one of our dogs"

"Commission to Trainers....The horse must be able to do the job and stay sound for life without injections, drugs or special shoes" (besides not riding the horse into the ground, etc, how can someone promise the horse to be sound for life?)

" Interest Free Financing"

"For all adoption fees of $500. and under its $100. down and $100. a month until paid

For all adoption fees $501. to $1000. its $200. down and $100. a month until paid in full

For all adoption fees of $1001. to $2000. its $400. down and $200. a month until paid in full

For all adoption fees of $2001. to $3000. its $600. down and $200. a month until paid in full

For all adoption fees of $3001. and up its 1/3 down and $250. a month until paid in full"

[cowgirljenn]

I feel so cheated. So heartbroken. In all of my life, NO ONE has ever given me a 4 carrot ring before. However will I get over the pain?

Sheesh. Did anyone actually get through her entire rambling email? I read about the first quarter of it and then hit the delete button.

Whoever said they are in the wrong line of work and should have been a con-man - I'm with you. If I could just get rid of my morals and ethics, I'm pretty sure I could be rich....

Sheesh. I, too, ache for the animals caught in this mess. Even if it isn't true, it can't be good for them to live with someone who is so... disturbed.

[Lady Counselor]

Ah well, in this era of change and upheaval, I suppose there is some comfort in knowing that there will always be some constants in our lives:
taxes
death
and that Celeita is still batshit




:lol:

[Madaketmomma]

:eek::eek::eek:

I was a court clerk for 3 years and we kept a binder of all the loony letters we received. This one would have made it in there for sure! The judge would have had a field day with her.

[witherbee]

Wow - what a rambling MESS. I'm starting for feel bad for Ed lol! Poor horses and dogs. Hopefully this woman will get some mental health services - she sounds totally delusional IMO...

[NEEDS A NAP]

And WHY on earth is she using the royal "we" and "us" in her e-mail? I was so confused when I first read it, wondering who else was looking for a place to live with her? Of course, when you're referring to 38,000 pounds of personal possessions, it would make more sense if it was several people!

[Dressage62]

Biography from her website:
"Professionally, Celeita has 23 years with the US Army, Army Reserves and
Army National Guard as a helicopter pilot, Test Pilot, Battalion Executive
Officer, Aircraft Maintenance Officer, Fielding Officer, and Company Commander.
Celeita has done tours of duty in Virginia, West Virginia, North Carolina, Alabama,
Vermont, Iowa, Kentucky, South Korea, and Japan. Celeita Kramer was the 24th
woman in DoD to earn military aviator wings, and the first woman in DoD to fly
and test fly the UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter. A former Pan Am pilot in the South
Pacific, she holds an FAA Commercial pilot's license with an instrument rating
and has over 3000 commercial and military flight hours."

Another paragraph from her website:
"We are looking for foster parents for all the horses located at SWAP HQ. We have lost our barn help (he's moving to get make more money) and can no longer keep horses here in the stalls because we do not have the help to maintain the barn and the stalls on a daily basis. We will need to move the horses immediately. He is leaving at the end of the month. We would like these fosters to be approved adopters, preferably people that already have our adoption horses. I guess we will be putting the farm up for sale soon. Its the beginning of the end from what I can see. We unfortunately do not have the money to pay transports but anyone that wants to adopt or foster a horse here, let us know quickly."

[cowgirljenn]

And WHY on earth is she using the royal "we" and "us" in her e-mail?

Because she has delusions of grandeur?

[anuphillbattle]

what year is that 'we need fosters' post?? I sent the current email to a friend who donated a horse to SWAP and this was her reply :

"Isn't she always in danger of losing her farm? How many times has she written for help to make payments to because she has to move? What is up with that?"

[Jack05]

"Professionally, Celeita has 23 years with the US Army, Army Reserves and
Army National Guard as a helicopter pilot, Test Pilot, Battalion Executive
Officer, Aircraft Maintenance Officer, Fielding Officer, and Company Commander. Celeita has done tours of duty in Virginia, West Virginia, North Carolina, Alabama, Vermont, Iowa, Kentucky, South Korea, and Japan. Celeita Kramer was the 24th woman in DoD to earn military aviator wings, and the first woman in DoD to fly and test fly the UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter. A former Pan Am pilot in the South Pacific, she holds an FAA Commercial pilot's license with an instrument rating and has over 3000 commercial and military flight hours."

Um....a "tour of duty" does not mean at each post you're assigned. A "tour of duty" is a period of time spent at sea or assigned to service in a foreign country. Asked my S.O. and some of his higher-up friends who are Blackhawk pilots if they ever heard of her....they said, "not that I know of." You would think if you were the first woman test pilot of Blackhawks...someone involved in Blackhawks would know who you were!

Sorry, but if you were a commercial airlines pilot and this, that, and the other, you'd have a pretty hefty sum of money from all of your "work" that you've done as well as military pensions and retirement $$$.

[witherbee]

Really scary if she IS/WASa pilot - she honestly sounds unstable to me. Of course there was that astronaut here in FL who was stalking that other woman... In one way I hope she IS lying about her service (because it's frightening to think she was let into the program), but in another way that is one of the worst scams that anyone can do IMO - lying about military service is a slap in the face to all of the true heros (and that includes military families) out there.

[Dressage62]

She makes the nutty astronaut look sane!
I've never seen such a HUGE website with pages and pages and pages of stuff! Unreal!
I agree with Whitney Houston: "Crack is Whack!"

[LexInVA]

AFAIK, she's just a mid-level bureaucrat who has been doing administrative work for years and stuck around to the point where she was promoted due to lack of other bodies to fill the position. If my memory serves me correctly, Kramer may not be her maiden name so if one were to generally inquire about her past, they would need it to obtain accurate information.

[minnie]

Well, if I were in her shoes and getting kicked out of the cushy little niche I'd carved out for myself, I think I'd miss the Housekeeper more than the pool! Much rather muck out stalls than the house! LOL

[Jack05]

If my memory serves me correctly, Kramer may not be her maiden name so if one were to generally inquire about her past, they would need it to obtain accurate information.

When then she went by a different first name when making all of these "firsts" in the military, as they didn't recognize "Celeita" either.

[SarahandSam]

Might have to do more than just bend coat hangers to make the branding iron then though. It's not like there are any good Sabre logos out there. *eye roll* http://a292.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/92/l_b28b952b3bd593e78353e7946414646b.jpg Of course maybe it's just because my favorite team is the Buffalo Sabres. Plenty of good ideas there. Then again the whole place is a train wreck. Why I waste time and energy... who knows? The woman drives me batshit if I think about it too long.

As a fellow Sabres fan, I'd say just about anything's better than the damn slug we have now... sigh.

On the actual topic... a person in the medieval reenactment group that I belong to just posted about a couple of her horses that she was giving up for financial issues, that were through SWAP... I'd never heard of the rescue before and looked them up and was impressed by such nice horses with such low prices... then I found out more info about the organization. Holy bejesus. Just reading through that black list opened my eyes to a whole new level of crazy... I can't imagine people go into these "adoptions" being truly aware of what it consists of, unless you just want a free lease...

[minnie]

..."I can't imagine people go into these "adoptions" being truly aware of what it consists of, unless you just want a free lease"...

Nothing free about it!

[SarahandSam]

..."I can't imagine people go into these "adoptions" being truly aware of what it consists of, unless you just want a free lease"...

Nothing free about it!

Hmm. Good point. (:

[LittleTyke]

Hey all, I saw the most recent fund raiser and came back looking for the old thread. Is it gone? Didn't see the "Ed's Okey Dokey" email... I've lost the email address that they had, so the latest fund raiser was sent second hand and didn't include the entire letter the the court...

This one got me: " Our housekeeper said he was even walking around the house ...."... uh.. if you only have $100, how the heck do you have a housekeeper? I'd love to have a housekeeper (okay, a stall cleaner, but kinda same diff).

Here again, hoping that the horses are not hurt in all of that mess down there. Is anyone going to volunteer to go help her move? Even if its just to check on the horses?

[JanM]

If anyone is worried about this nutjob flying--stop worrying. She was grounded years ago and flew a desk until they could get rid of her. Trust me no one I know would let her anywhere near a helicopter-and the Guard aviation community is very small when it comes to reputation. Also, on a website anybody can claim anything but the first Black Hawk flights were many years ago (I believe in the late 60's) and I don't think she's old enough to be in on the initial flight for anything-she might have been one of the first women to fly in a Black Hawk in her state-but it wouldn't be the first time she left a few facts out for her own purposes. I bet her 'tours of duty' were places she flew over (when she still was a pilot) or as a passenger. And actually I think with reserve time you don't get a pension until age 60, and in the interval before your retirement until your 60th birthday you get nothing.

[J Swan]

I wouldn't rely upon her description of her military career.

[Kenike]

Uh, no, I HIGHLY doubt she has the military background she claims.

[EponaRoan]

I would flove to hear Ed's side of this whole thing.

if you were a commercial airlines pilot

It's been awhile since I've flown and the thought of flying with a pilot like Celeita makes me go :eek::eek::eek:. Did she fly for Oceanic Airlines by chance? :lol:

[Amber_M]

29 "rescued" horses = $160,000 ??? On what planet?!

Man am I in the wrong business. I should have been a con woman. I wonder how much money she has blown in the last 10 years on her 38,000 lbs of "personal stuff". "Her farm" whose mortgage was paid via "donations" to SWAP was on the market. I'm guessing that it didn't sell and now she has run through all of Ed's money and she's got to think up a new gimmick to get more money out of the donors, but her shady business practices are catching up with her and donations are probably down a little bit. If you give some people enough rope, in the end they will eventually hang themselves.

Sell the horses you can't provide for, give the ring back to Ed if you have no intention of marrying him and give it a rest all ready!

She values her adoption horses at what she /thinks/ they'd bring in as a sales price.

Look at the prices of the adoptions on her page. Last time I looked she was "adopting" out horses for $10k+ and then retaining legal ownership of the horses, taking them back at any moment for false reasons to re"adopt" for another $10k.

[2 tbs]

Did she fly for Oceanic Airlines by chance? :lol:


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Until the show gives me something about the pilot I'm going to even give better credit to them than what I'm reading about this "person". :yes:

[CenturyOak]

did anyone see the brand that she wants to start branding her horses with giant SWAP and its super ugly too

I had to chime in on this, a friend sent me a link to their site yesterday with that big SWAP brand. My questions raised were:

1. If she's in WV.. then why did she register the brand in Texas?
2. Which brand registry did she use in Texas... there are 67 brand registries in Texas, one for each county.

That black list pretty much summed it up... that's a whole 'nother level of cRaZiNeSs :eek: :eek: :eek:

[SleepyFox]

After reading Celeita's crazy letter to the Court I'm seriously thinking about wandering around the house with a bottle in a paper bag a la Ed myself - and it's only 7 in the morning here. How much you wanna bet he was on "the wagon" (what idiot uses that phrase in a legal document?) prior to HER coming into his life? I mean, if anyone could drive a man to drink - it's got to be her. :lol:

I would LOVE to see the judge's face when s/he gets that letter. I'll bet they laminate a copy for passing around the office.

And, I was laughing out loud at the idea of her running around telling "the truth" to potential buyers of Ed's farm (which I'm sure he just refers to as the Money Pit in the Middle of Nowhere/The Biggest Mistake of My Life). I'm sure that crazy bat meets the potential buyers in the driveway and starts harassing them before they even get out of the car - explaining how Ed is an drunk and the house is built on a sinkhole and if they buy the farm they also have to buy six dogs (at a price of $300 ea.) and five horses (at a price of $10k ea.) and all animals will be stamped with a fugly SWAP brand and three microchips and if any of the critters ever sneezes, she will sue them.

Gack. I'm getting stressed just thinking about it. I'm off to find a paper bag for my bottle. ;):lol:

[sweetwater]

What kind of legitimate rescue doesn't do site checks? A bunch of people on that blacklist were on there for misrepresenting their facilities...well, um, think that's her own fault. When I adopted my fugly little rescue, they had a rep drive over 100 miles to check out my farm.

[Ruth0552]

I wasn't involved with the last thread at all, didn't even read most of it, but when I got that email from them I knew it was only a matter of minutes until it showed up on COTH.

I am usually against governement over-regulation and "watching" but THIS is exactly why there should be some kind of organization that tracks horse rescues. Not that it will ever happen or work....

She is a whole nother planet of crazy.

[eventgroupie2]

Against my better judgment :D, I just went to the Crossed Sabres site. She now is running the "I'm moving back to my old farm" adoption special. The ring is now a "3 carrot" diamond that she is offering for the price of $9,000. She doesn't even have a picture of the ring she is selling, has a picture of one like it, but with a much smaller diamond! :eek: Horse "prices" seem to be about the same as usual. I did notice that she has eliminated many of the pages, including the infamous "black list"???

[anuphillbattle]

Celeita of Second Wind Adoption Program just gave my friend permission to post her emails on the Internet - not sure she meant this ONE :

:eek::eek::eek:WARNING explitives NOT deleted - forwarded exactly as written and received:

First part written by Sue Moline Of MA: [who volunteered doing phone calls to donors, potential adopters, doing reference checks,advertising etc for SWAP for well over a year, even after the Board of Directors quit - this was in 2003 ]. I will post mine when I dig them up.

Original Message -----
From:

Sent: 3/9/2007 6:25:56 PM
Subject: Re: donating a horse

In a message dated 3/9/2007 4:56:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, maplewoodfarm@mindspring.com writes:
Celeita, I had a friend contact you regarding donating a horse. She looked into your 501(c) 3 status and says that you are not 501(c)3. She first received an email stating that it must be under a different name...then received an email saying you couldn't take her horse...even though you are actively soliciting horses at this time. Hers is an expensive, sound, gorgeous horse which she cares about and therefore is not comfortable selling outright. So, it sounds like even your office staff is misinformed or someone is being deceitful. How can you say? :

"Donations are tax-deductible to the extent of the law. Equine donors receive a letter of acknowledgement stating the horse was donated at the time of adoption or at the end of the year, which ever comes first. In many cases, but not all, the horse may be deducted at its fair market value (or appraised value if believed to be over $5000) depending on whether the horse was considered a business asset or not and on a depreciated schedule. A CPA should be consulted for accuracy."

This sure is misleading and is probably fraudulent as well. I believe it is illegal to solicit funds or donations as a charity when you are not. I know that it is probably the donor who gets into trouble for using the donation as a tax deduction and getting audited, but there are also stiff penalities for fraudulent solicitations. Actually, someone I heard about is in pretty big trouble right now for depositing rescue checks into her own account rather than forwarding them to the rescue for which she was collecting funds - and those were not BIG checks - but someone reported to the charity that they had not received their donation letter and lo and behold, the charity never received the checks.

Some time ago (years) you said your account had screwed up your 501(c)3 filing and you were working on it. Seems to me that you either should have it straightened out by now or quit saying that donations are ( or even could be) deductible. I think about all the hours I spent volunteering for you...well I did it for the horses. But now it seems that the horses are taking a back seat to a nice lifestyle that appears to be a co-mingling of SWAP funds and yours in your new venture. It seems that you are a 'dealer' with no cost basis on your 'inventory'. The few actual 'rescues' don't make up for the big ticket horses that you are apparently soliciting under false pretenses IMO. I sure am disappointed to have been part of this and no longer feel right about defending you or your organization. Please tell me I am mistaken about your status and this is a mistake.

Sue Moline

RESPONSE FROM CELEITA:

Sue, we are not taking any horses right now and won't be for months, we are moving to our new farm and totally revamping the program, both will take literally months. I remember your friend and do not want to deal with any owner who cares more about their tax write off than they do about the horse. We have people waiting in line to give us horses and none of them care about the tax write off, they want their horse to have the best home and to be protected for life. I will not deal with premadona's anymore who only care about money. We don't have to.

And no, you are wrong. Anyone can take donations (or cash gifts or gifts of supplies, support, etc), but only 501c3's can give tax write offs to them. If you are not a 501c3 then the donations become income that you pay taxes on. you should know the laws before you accuse someone of something. I'm not sure where you are getting that on our website but I did not recall anything like that on our website but if you are finding that on our website then please tell me what page it is on and I will remove it because I am not going to deal with any owners any more that only care about their precious donation. There are too many great horses that need homes and too many people who are only concerned about the home to deal with these kind of people and we are finally in a position to turn them away, which I gladly did with your friend. These owners who want everything and want to give nothing to insure their horse is safe for life, they only want to dump it when its of no use to them and get a big tax write off to boot. I am done with them.

HOW DARE YOU SAY SUCH F****** THINGS TO ME. YOU DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MY LIFE, MY FIANCE BOUGHT THAT FARM AND NOT ONE PENNY OF SWAP FUNDS HAVE GONE TO PAY FOR ANYTHING SO UNTIL YOU STOP PULLING ASSUMPTIONS OUT OF YOUR ASS HOLE AND SAY SOMETHING ACCURATE YOU STAY THE F*** AWAY FROM THIS PROGRAM. MY FARM HAS NOT EVEN SOLD YET BUT THIS FARM HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN MY NAME, NOT THE PROGRAMS SO I CAN DO WITH IT WHAT THE F*** I WANT. I ALLOWED THE PROGRAM FREE USE OF IT FOR MANY YEARS WITH NO LEASE, NO CHARGE AND I WORKED FOR THE PROGRAM FOR FREE WITH NO SALARY, THEY NEVER HAD TO PAY RENT AND THAT IS ALL THE F*** YOU CAN SAY TO ME, IS I AM CO-MINGLING SWAP FUNDS ON THIS NEW FARM.

YOU DONT KNOW S*** SO DON'T EVEN GO THERE. YOU CALL US A F***ING DEALER, WELL WE ARE THE ONES TRACKING HORSES FOR LIFE, WE ARE THE ONES THAT TAKE THEM BACK AFTER ADOPTERS STARVE THEM AND TREAT THEM BADLY, WE ARE THE ONES THAT FIX THE TRAINING ISSUES, WE ARE THE ONES ACCEPTING OLD HORSES BACK BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT TO DUMP HORSES LIKE OLD SHOES, ONCE THEY ARE DONE WITH THEM, WE ARE THE ONES THAT GO IN TO ADOPTERS AND INTO PEOPLE'S FARMS AND TAKE OUR HORSES THAT ARE BEING STARVED AND THIS IS WHAT WE F***ING GET???????? THIS IS THE VERY REASON WHY I DON'T WANT TO DO THIS ANYMORE BECAUSE OF F***ING C***S LIKE YOU, BUSY BODIES WHO KNOW NOTHING BUT INTEND ON MAKING TROUBLE. GO THE F*** AWAY. DO NOT BOTHER ME AGAIN AND KEEP YOUR PETTY SELFISH F***ING FRIENDS FROM THIS PROGRAM AS WELL, WE DO NOT NEED THEM AND DO NOT WANT THEIR HORSES.

Second Wind Adoption Program
"See the Vision, Live the Dream"

Celeita A. Kramer, Executor & Stable Owner
Diana Greenhalgh, Office Manager
Aldine Hart, Barn Manager
Levi Hochstetler, Transporter
Dr. Mike McDonald, Stable Vet
Pat McCartney, Stable Farrier
Dr. Winnie Massett, Stable Dentist
Second Wind Adoption Program
International Headquarters at Crossed Sabers Stable
Address: RR 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road
West Union, West Virginia 26456
Office Phone: 304-873-3532, 304-873-1435
Barn Phone: 304-873-3030
Fax: 304-873-3121
Business Email: secondwindadopt@aol.com
Website Link: http://www.crossedsabers.com/

This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message or use of its address book, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited. If you have received a quarterly newsletter or any other news items from SWAP and want to be removed from our distribution list, please email us with a request to remove.

[anuphillbattle]

From: Secondwindadopt@aol.com Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:46:15 EST
Subject: Re: Donating a horse
To: anuphillbattle@yahoo.com
In a message dated 2/25/2007 12:54:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuphillbattle@yahoo.com writes:

I have read your website and have a question about donation tax deduction. How does one take this tax deduction ? Your site says 'tax deductible to the extent of the law' and I'm not sure what that means.

I have a horse I am interested in finding a great home for. He is 12, sound, well trained and I just want to secure his future as I no longer ride him and he is far too good to become a pasture potatoe. I have considered a lease but do not want any potential liability issues in this sue happy world.

Please advise. J. Hill

[RESPONSE FROM CELEITA]
The tax deduction is around his estimate value (what you could sell him for) up to $5000. Over 5k estimated value you have to get an appraisal from the certified horse appraiser, we have someone we recommend and she is cheaper than most, only $165 and it looks like a real estate appraisal.

Can you tell me more about him. His breed, training, height, experience, what he's done. Any injuries, illnesses, lamenesses, training issues or vices? Let me know if you have other questions.

We can place horses from the donors location but we won't be taking horses here until about mid to late summer because after our move we are going to revamp the program to better serve our horses. Celeita

Celeita A. Kramer, Executor & Stable Owner
Diana Greenhalgh, Office Manager and Groom
Aldine Hart, Barn Manager
Dr. Mike McDonald, Stable Vet
Pat McCartney, Stable Farrier
Dr. Winney Masset, Stable Dentist
Second Wind Adoption Program
International Headquarters at Crossed Sabers Stable
Address: RR 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road
West Union, West Virginia 26456
Office Phone: 304-873-3532, 304-873-1435
Fax: 304-873-3121
Business Email: secondwindadopt@aol.com
Website Link: http://www.crossedsabers.com/


Crossed Sabers Stable and The Second Wind Adoption Program
"Where Dreams become Reality, See the Vision, Live the Dream"
Celebrating 10 years of Service to Horses and the Horse Industry, 1996 - 2006


The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mohandas Gandhi

How you respond to the challenge in the second half will determine what you become after the game, whether you are a winner or a loser.
Lou Holtz

Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.
Sam Ewing

Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
Buddha

This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message or use of its address book, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited, by opening this email you as the addressed recipient agree to this policy. If you have received a quarterly newsletter or any other news items from SWAP and want to be removed from our distribution list, please email us with a request to remove from the email address you want removed. Thank you all for your continued friendship and support.

[anuphillbattle]

Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:09:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "Jill Hill" <anuphillbattle@yahoo.com> Add to Address BookAdd to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: Re: Donating a horse
To: Secondwindadopt@aol.com
Though your site talks about when you were approved as a Non Profit, I couldn't find your organization on any Non Profit/ 501(c)3 lists - is it under another name? It is my understanding that you must be a Non Profit in order for my donation to be a tax deduction.

The horse is 'perfect' and expensive and I wouldn't want a bad tax (audit) situation. I have an appraisal. But I need the information on your organization before proceeding.

Secondwindadopt@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 2/25/2007 12:54:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuphillbattle@yahoo.com writes:

I have read your website and have a question about donation tax deduction. How does one take this tax deduction ? Your site says 'tax deductible to the extent of the law' and I'm not sure what that means.

I have a horse I am interested in finding a great home for. He is 12, sound, well trained and I just want to secure his future as I no longer ride him and he is far too good to become a pasture potatoe. I have considered a lease but do not want any potential liability issues in this sue happy world.

Please advise. J. Hill

HERE's Celeita's response:

The tax deduction is around his estimate value (what you could sell him for) up to $5000. Over 5k estimated value you have to get an appraisal from the certified horse appraiser, we have someone we recommend and she is cheaper than most, only $165 and it looks like a real estate appraisal.

Can you tell me more about him. His breed, training, height, experience, what he's done. Any injuries, illnesses, lamenesses, training issues or vices? Let me know if you have other questions.

We can place horses from the donors location but we won't be taking horses here until about mid to late summer because after our move we are going to revamp the program to better serve our horses. Celeita

Celeita A. Kramer, Executor & Stable Owner
Diana Greenhalgh, Office Manager and Groom
Aldine Hart, Barn Manager
Dr. Mike McDonald, Stable Vet
Pat McCartney, Stable Farrier
Dr. Winney Masset, Stable Dentist
Second Wind Adoption Program
International Headquarters at Crossed Sabers Stable
Address: RR 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road
West Union, West Virginia 26456
Office Phone: 304-873-3532, 304-873-1435
Fax: 304-873-3121
Business Email: secondwindadopt@aol.com
Website Link: http://www.crossedsabers.com/

Crossed Sabers Stable and The Second Wind Adoption Program
"Where Dreams become Reality, See the Vision, Live the Dream"
Celebrating 10 years of Service to Horses and the Horse Industry, 1996 - 2006

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mohandas Gandhi

How you respond to the challenge in the second half will determine what you become after the game, whether you are a winner or a loser.
Lou Holtz

Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.
Sam Ewing

Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.
Buddha

This message (including any attachments) contains confidential information intended for a specific individual and purpose, and is protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete this message. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution of this message or use of its address book, or the taking of any action based on it, is strictly prohibited, by opening this email you as the addressed recipient agree to this policy. If you have received a quarterly newsletter or any other news items from SWAP and want to be removed from our distribution list, please email us with a request to remove from the email address you want removed. Thank you all for your continued friendship and support.

[anuphillbattle]

Secondwindadopt@aol.com wrote:

From: Secondwindadopt@aol.com
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:53:31 EST
Subject: Re: Donating a horse
To: anuphillbattle@yahoo.com

In a message dated 2/25/2007 3:09:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuphillbattle@yahoo.com writes:

"Though your site talks about when you were approved as a Non Profit, I couldn't find your organization on any Non Profit/ 501(c)3 lists - is it under another name? It is my understanding that you must be a Non Profit in order for my donation to be a tax deduction.

The horse is 'perfect' and expensive and I wouldn't want a bad tax (audit) situation. I have an appraisal. But I need the information on your organization before proceeding."

[celeita's response]
It should be under SWAP, Inc or LLC in Pub 78. We've never had anyone audited and we've done this for over 10 years.



Celeita A. Kramer, Executor & Stable Owner
Diana Greenhalgh, Office Manager and Groom
Aldine Hart, Barn Manager
Dr. Mike McDonald, Stable Vet
Pat McCartney, Stable Farrier
Dr. Winney Masset, Stable Dentist
Second Wind Adoption Program
International Headquarters at Crossed Sabers Stable
Address: RR 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road
West Union, West Virginia 26456
Office Phone: 304-873-3532, 304-873-1435
Fax: 304-873-3121
Business Email: secondwindadopt@aol.com
Website Link: http://www.crossedsabers.com/

[minnie]

Oh MY! Can we spread this far and wide???? Wouldn't you just LOVE to have a copy of her "email list" of all the people who donated to her to let them know that the money didn't go to "SWAP" but to her private personal accounts instead? And that SHE is the one who benefits from these desperate pleas for funds to save the SWAP farm?

[LexInVA]

Secondwindadopt@aol.com wrote:

From: Secondwindadopt@aol.com
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:53:31 EST
Subject: Re: Donating a horse
To: anuphillbattle@yahoo.com

In a message dated 2/25/2007 3:09:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, anuphillbattle@yahoo.com writes:

"Though your site talks about when you were approved as a Non Profit, I couldn't find your organization on any Non Profit/ 501(c)3 lists - is it under another name? It is my understanding that you must be a Non Profit in order for my donation to be a tax deduction.

The horse is 'perfect' and expensive and I wouldn't want a bad tax (audit) situation. I have an appraisal. But I need the information on your organization before proceeding."

[celeita's response]
It should be under SWAP, Inc or LLC in Pub 78. We've never had anyone audited and we've done this for over 10 years.





Celeita A. Kramer, Executor & Stable Owner
Diana Greenhalgh, Office Manager and Groom
Aldine Hart, Barn Manager
Dr. Mike McDonald, Stable Vet
Pat McCartney, Stable Farrier
Dr. Winney Masset, Stable Dentist
Second Wind Adoption Program
International Headquarters at Crossed Sabers Stable
Address: RR 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road
West Union, West Virginia 26456
Office Phone: 304-873-3532, 304-873-1435
Fax: 304-873-3121
Business Email: secondwindadopt@aol.com
Website Link: http://www.crossedsabers.com/

Save that e-mail! By the greatness of Jan-Michael Vincent, don't delete it!

[caffeinated]

Save that e-mail! By the greatness of Jan-Michael Vincent, don't delete it!

Seriously? An "Airwolf" reference?

You are so my new best friend. :cool:

[LexInVA]

Seriously? An "Airwolf" reference?

You are so my new best friend. :cool:

Hah hah...yes...I'm a HUGE Airwolf fan. You have no idea. I've seen the chopper remade from the original parts in TN (have beautiful photos I took of it to prove it), got all three recognized seasons on DVD, and I've mixed and recorded the theme song with my synths. God I'm such an 80's child!

[EponaRoan]

"Donations are tax-deductible to the extent of the law.

And that amount would be $0. Perhaps that's her way of weaseling out of it?

It's almost like her personalities change as she writes and gets angrier and angrier.

[MMacallister]

Has anyone considered contacted the infamous Ed? I am sure he would have a thing or two to say about her legal and illegal activites. I am amazed that the great COTH has not managed to take this fraud down.

[LexInVA]

Has anyone considered contacted the infamous Ed? I am sure he would have a thing or two to say about her legal and illegal activites. I am amazed that the great COTH has not managed to take this fraud down.

It wouldn't be hard if we knew a bit more about him. As long as he's sober, he could give quite a bit of juicy information, and depending on what he offers, there might be something in it for him when it comes time to shut her down. Heck, he might give her up just to be rid of her.

[amanda.stewart]

MAN...here I am in good ole WV & I can't believe it's happening again.

#1. Sleepy Fox's post made me laugh until I had tears
#2. Lex in Va: I think you can watch all the episodes of that favorite 80's show on netflix : )

#3: SERIOUSLY...it sounds like the email she sent (the profane one) was written by 2 people or at 2 different times...or gulp...by one person with TWO personalities???? it makes no sense at all, and she needs serious mental help. Anyone who would write anything like this needs mental help.

She also contradicts herself in the newest "we need help" email...even in the same paragraph!

I can't believe she herself hasn't done enough of this to get shut down....BOO to our IRS and state officials! BOO BOO BOO! What in the heck do I pay all these taxes for???? SHUT THIS PLACE DOWN and get her treatment!

Perhaps we should start a SWAProblem blog or yahoo group if COTH is going to delete the old threads. There was sooo much info in that!!!! Now gone? :mad:

I'd be glad to host a blog if you guys are interested--I've already been bodily threatened, so, I'm OK with taking more heat. Sounds like she's busy giving old Ed her wrath, so we'd all be safe for a while at least

[cowgirljenn]

Has anyone considered contacted the infamous Ed? I am sure he would have a thing or two to say about her legal and illegal activites. I am amazed that the great COTH has not managed to take this fraud down.

Does he actually exist? :) Is he a figment of her imagination?

[HighFlyinBey++]

Al Capone was taken down on tax fraud. If she is taking donated money and applying it to personal accounts (say she's justifying a "salary" for herself), wouldn't that be considered reportable income and thus, taxable by the IRS? I'm sure the IRS would be happy to look into the issue :yes:

[amanda.stewart]

Anyone is welcome to go to http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/SWAProblems/ and join

I won't delete the threads...too bad COTH did.

You can also go to yahoo groups and search for SWAProblems.

I've enabled posters to hide their email addresses if they choose, but you can't email your responses if you choose to do that...you must post at the yahoo groups site.

If you all feel a public blog would be better, let me know and I'll do that instead. In the meantime...here it is at yahoo groups.

If nothing else, at least people talking has shed the light on some serious problems! Getting the word out will help others not make a mistake in dealing with these folks...geesh, maybe the blog IS needed?

[twixx]

:confused:it might be of interest to posters that the current issue of COTH has an article about a soured Grand Prix horse that was adopted from Swap and is now rehibilitated and now back in work. Anyone remember Nico?

[Anne FS]

Hmmm. Wonder if somebody will tell Celery or Celeita or whatever her name is and SWAP will demand the horse back, since SWAP obviously still owns it, right? And now that it's worth something, let's see if she can find a "violation" of the adoption policy and demand to get the horse back.

Did the article mention an "owner" of the adoptee?

[twixx]

yes it mentioned the owners name, you can probably read the article on line.

[caffeinated]

twixx, there was an article like that a few years back in Practical Horseman as well, about a horse that is doing eventing now.

[Moderator 1]

The original thread on this topic has been restored (currently in off course and closed) for reference. Looks like it was placed in a "holding pen" during the mod shift.

A reminder that any current discussion of legal wrong-doing should be limited to first-hand experience, be backed by evidence or be clearly stated as an opinion until/unless formal charges are brought.

Thanks!

[EponaRoan]

Here's a link to the original thread:

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=69766

If it's going to remain closed (and continue to drift further and further down the pages), could it be added to the archives for future reference?

[Nuguum]

Okay, I am not an attorney, but what does she mean that it doesn't release anyone from their contract. If she is dissolving the rescue and the corporation doesn't exist any longer, I would think that the contracts would be dissolved too. How does a non-existant corporation inforce a contract by that corporation?
Yes, I have seen crap like this from them repeatedly over the years.
Her excuses just get crazier and crazier.

They've changed it on the website. This is the original:

Sadly, we've realized we must close down the adoption program. No one is adopting the dogs or the horses and we can't afford to keep them. Tomorrow I'm due another feed delivery that costs us $1680. for each delivery and only lasts us a month and we don't have the money. Additionally I've realized that I've moved in with a man who is a liar, a slob and an alcoholic and he does not care about these animals at all, he's selfish and only cares about himself. I believe he even lied about his horse experience as he is dangerous in the barn. He's drunk most mornings by about 8am and even drives drunk so he's going to kill someone. I really want no part of that, he just has some serious problems and dishonesty that we just can't live with.

This does not release any adopters from their adoption contracts and we will continue to help adopters place their horses from their homes when they can no longer keep them. I will continue to do this forever and be around to enforce and support the existing contracts with adopters but we are no longer taking horses and dogs here and we must place all these animals that we have immediately as we just do not have the funds to take care of them or feed them. This is an urgent request that should be cross posted, we need homes for all these horses and dogs.

We will be raising money to move back to our old farm and maybe eventually we can get on our feet to eventually and start over but I suspect it may take years to repair this damage that has taken place from this upheaval and the months we spent preparing for the move, the move itself and the months that its taken us to get settled in and be functional. Anyone who has the heart to help it would be much appreciated. It cost us at least 12.5k to move and sadly we are no where where we should be to be ready for winter so we may even lose our old farm. Ed promised to help us get stable but he's now reneging on all his promises. That is what I get for trusting someone.

Thank you all for your continued friendship, inspiration and support,


Celeita A.Kramer
Celeita A. Kramer, Founder, Executor & Stable Owner
SWAP International HQ at Crossed Sabers Stable
New Address: HC 69 Box 28, Rt 18 Josephs Mills, Alma, WV 26320
Office: 304-758-2384 or 304-758-2471,
Guest House: 304-758-2390 Stable: 304-758-2352
web site: http://www.crossedsabers.com/


"Where Dreams become Reality, See the Vision, Live the Dream"
Celebrating 11 years of service to horses and the horse Industry, 1996 - 2007

[NEEDS A NAP]

For those of you who missed the "Ed is peachy keen" Christmas e-mail, sent on 12/25/07, here is a portion: (I would cut and paste the original, but it was 17 pages long, 14 pages of pictures included!!!)

(paraphrase of the looong first two pages: program is doing great, all horses are under saddle and in training, we did a great job this year even though 21 rescue horses were dumped on us, etc. etc., many pats on the back)

..."Ed Hogan continues to be our biggest financial supporter by giving us this lovely farm to make our own and paying for all the improvements to make it funcitonal for this program and its work. I'm certain he's written a million dollars in checks in order to give us this wonderful home, no wonder he worries about money and looks forward for the day when we can stand on our own two feet again. He's done all this because he believes in our mission and the work we are doing."

No mention that he's the fiance that was "dangerous" to her and the horses in October, and is apparently now so again in February. And there's that dang royal "we" again.

Whoever said it seems as though these e-mails are being written by two different people was absolutely right!

[LexInVA]

Who needs nip/tuck when you have SWAP? :lol:

[moonriverfarm]

Gee, I have five OTTBs at my farm that we picked up to avoid the meat truck. Can everyone send me money, blankets, feed, supplements, hay....and a free vet, farrier, some grooms, several barn hands and someone to pay for my farm? I mean, since I took them in, I'm a charity, right? And that means you all need to send help!!!!!!!!!!!

[J Swan]

:confused:it might be of interest to posters that the current issue of COTH has an article about a soured Grand Prix horse that was adopted from Swap and is now rehibilitated and now back in work. Anyone remember Nico?

I missed that - is it in the horse/rider of the year issue or last weeks?

[amanda.stewart]

someone said on the yahoo group that the old thread is back up? where can I find it?

[caffeinated]

scroll up. eponaroan put the url in one of her posts.

[medalrider]

Just a couple of thoughts on this whole mess...what kind of a rescue "adopts out" 50K horses? Wow....that's amazing to me. I'd be happy "Selling" my horses for 50k. Where do I sign up to be an adoption/rescue like her???

Her website, letter to the court and email responses show a very mentally unbalanced person with narcissistic personality disorder (check out the symptoms on: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html ) her refusal to accept any responsibility in her ongoing situations is a big red flag. I can not imagine putting so much personal, private information out for the court to read and the entire world to see. She's got some really serioius mental problems. Growing up with a person with NPD, I can tell you it CAN lead a rational sane person to alcoholism (just ask my dad lol) I'm sure her behaviors has either caused, or extremely exacerbated her BFs drinking. It's your only escape from them (besides death -which I've seen people make that choice too to escape an NPDer)

I would steer as clear of this woman as small pox...they both are fatal before you even recognize the symptoms and are incurable. lol What a flipping NUTcase!!! (But I still want to know how she gets these horses as rescues who are good enough to go to FINALS???? Holy canoley - I want to sign up for a few of those rescues lol.)

[twixx]

missed that - is it in the horse/rider of the year issue or last weeks?


Hi, It was last weeks.

[sidepasser]

Gee, I have five OTTBs at my farm that we picked up to avoid the meat truck. Can everyone send me money, blankets, feed, supplements, hay....and a free vet, farrier, some grooms, several barn hands and someone to pay for my farm? I mean, since I took them in, I'm a charity, right? And that means you all need to send help!!!!!!!!!!!


Hey I took ole Tyler in - lol - don't that count??? I want a TAX RECEIPT for my "donation" of feed, hay, farrier, vet, and time spent grooming. Oh and shavings too, yeppers, I want a receipt for everything!!! You can give me one "to the full extent that the law allows"..

tee hee..lol..

Tyler is doing great by the way, muddy cause that horse loves to roll in mud more than any horse I have ever seen. Must be a grey thing..sigh..I groom him and turn him out, and he looks at me and trots over to "his" spot and lays down and wallows in the mud. Makes me mad as a hornet!

But then he gives that weird nicker thing and I forgive him. Horse needs a rosary as many times as I have had to forgive him rolling the mud - lol..

he's great, just like you said he would be! (I still want that tax reciept though..lol..)

[doublete]

Seriously wow.

[amanda.stewart]

Her website, letter to the court and email responses show a very mentally unbalanced person with narcissistic personality disorder (check out the symptoms on: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html )

Whoa--I think you hit the nail on the head. How sad.

[eventgroupie2]

OMG!!!!! The two times that I was over at SWAP headquarters with Celeita, she exhibited most of the characteristics listed on that site. Obviously, her writings and rants show these traits clearly, too. This also explains why she "fired" all of us when we started questioning her nonprofit status. Even tho' it explains a lot, it surely doesn't make it any less scary dealing with her!!! I stay as far away from any contact with her as possible, except for sending in the yearly updates on my two SWAP horses. If she really does close down this time, I'll be glad to not even send those to her.

[LexInVA]

I don't think she'll ever close down unless something actually happens to her or she screws up the finances. Unfortunately, she gets a lot of "Heil SWAP!" type support from the people who hang on any posting that says "Help the horses!". She's cross posted her pleas on every single board where rescue fanatics flock and nobody questions her legitimacy. That's just her usual routine and she posts elsewhere too. I'm not just talking about horse boards. I've seen her posts on genealogy forums, locality-specific forums, and guestbooks.

[LittleTyke]

Lexinva - could you post the groups where you've seen her posting? I'd be interesting in their names, I haven't seen her posting on line in a long time.

ALL - read the email posted above where she admits that the farm is in her name, then look back at the other 'blacklist' thread where I posted all the funds that she has raised to pay her mortgage and loans on that farm... not small amounts, we're talking at least $100k in the first few years of the program and the funds were solicited under the name of the program specifically to pay debts against the farm that had been made to improve the barns when she first bought the farm. I'm truely astonished that this woman is not in jail.

FINDING ED - when he was first brought up, I did a search on his name and he's pretty easy to find information about. At the time, the person that I found seemed pretty credible, so I assumed she was dealing with a different Ed. I'm sure at least his attorney would like a copy of that email, since it has been sent to the entire internet.

Just curious, can we capture some of the posted info (like the emails) into the yahoo group? In my communications with her, she had not yet started using the F and C words so generously, but had the same basic approach.. "all you care about is a d*** tax deduction" and was giving the accountant killed in accident story.

Right now, I'm worried about the horses in her care. Can anyone close go to just check out that they have food/water?

[LexInVA]

Lexinva - could you post the groups where you've seen her posting? I'd be interesting in their names, I haven't seen her posting on line in a long time.


Unfortunately, the major search engines have flushed much of their older cache of documents and they aren't caching as many pages as they used to but I do know that she was posting notices online towards the end of last year. From what I've processed, she may be cross posting under aliases to give the impression that she has a large support base as the postings are pretty much identical. I've got a few things I'll post on the group though none of them really give any insight into what's going on out there.

[equusrocks]

I wonder if she's seen any of the threads here on CoTH?

[tradewind]

She is beneath contempt. One could only hope she is actually going out of business, but I am sure that is as much of a lie as all the other crap she spews out on a regular basis.

[minnie]

Found several mentions of "non-profit status" on googled pages, including: Petfinders>>>>

Our Featured Pet...
Current News
For more information, please visit our website at: www.crossedsabers.com. email us at secondwindadopt@aol.com
Who We Are
The Crossed Sabers Second Wind Adoption Program is a non-profit equine rescue and adoption program whose mission is providing horses with a second chance at life. At Second Wind we believe adoption is "rescue prevention" and our program works to reduce the problems of neglect, abuse and wrongful death before they occur. We are proud to say we have placed thousands of horses and ponies of 63 different breeds and all disciplines into permanent, loving homes since our inception in 1998. We've placed horses into 43 of the 50 states and Canada. Reasons horses are donated to SWAP: Horse is finishing one career and ready for another Can't physically hold up to the rigors of its current profession or doesn't like its current profession. No longer has a career as a broodmare or breeding stallion, either they are not producing or the owner is changing focus of breeding goals Owner is going to college and can't afford both Owner is no longer breeding, showing, racing or giving lessons Horse is not winning enough to pay the bills Horse has training issues beyond owners capabilities Horse needs to be the center of someone's attention instead of being just another horse in the barn Is a retired police horse, race horse, show horse but still able to start another career Family is moving and can't take the horse Family hardship, ie. divorce, health problems, loss of job, death in family, retiring, down-sizing the herd or farm, lack of time for the horse or for riding Horse needs someone more advanced to handle or ride horse, owner has advanced beyond the capabilities of the horse Child has grown out of the horse/pony Change in personal situation including pregnancy, deteriorating health, getting married, old age, going to college Not going to make a race horse, not fast enough, doesn't have the desire to race, doesn't have the physical conformation or size for racing, showing or its current job Horse has special needs, needs to get out of the sun or heat of the south or needs warmer climate, needs to ridden more, needs to be ridden less, have allergies to a geographical region Change in equine business climate for the professional horse person ... higher taxes, costs of keeping horses, drought winters, etc. Though 90% of our horses are not rescues (most are donated from onwers that have taken very good care of them) but we do take and accept horses that are taken by authorites for abuse and neglect. We identify those horses in our ads. Here's just a few of our donors: Armond Leone. Grand Prix Show Jumper, medical doctor, lawyer and Secretary of USET donated Galant. Armond's better half, Alison Leone, a leading amateur show jumper, donated her beloved mare Heaven Sent . Charles Fenwick, Jr., one of most recognized names in Steeplechasing, donated Tyler Run and Jericho Warning. McLain Ward, one of the leading Grand Prix Show Jumpers in the world, donated Nations Cup Winner, Omnibus. Joseph Hardiman, Huntsman for the Chagrin Valley Hunt Club in Gates Mills, Ohio donated his beloved hunter, Danny. Joseph then adopted Blue, a Dutch Warmblood . Peter Leone, Silver Medalist in the Atlantic Olympics and world famous Grand Prix Show Jumper donated Art (son of Artos). Anne Thompsonral references ....

and this one: Crossed Sabers Stable & The Second Wind Adoption Program, (SWAP, Inc.) International Horse Adoption Program

edit Description
HISTORY of Crossed Sabers Stable and The Second Wind Adoption Program (SWAP)

Crossed Sabers Stable was established in July of 1996. The Crossed Sabers name and emblem originated from the US Cavalry emblem worn on their uniform and Stetson. It was selected to exemplify the long history and connection between the horse and the military. The stable colors are the traditional Cavalry colors of red and white, added to a black background. The Second Wind Adoption Program was founded by the stable owner, Celeita Kramer, when her mentor, Evelyn Duhr died of cancer the summer of ‘97. Evelyn owned Second Wind Farm in Maryland where she ran a standardbred adoption program. Second Wind was dedicated to Evelyn’s work but was expanded to address all breeds and horses in need. Second Wind Adoption became a non-profit program the summer of ‘98 and the entire facility became non-profit the summer of 2000. At that time, Crossed Sabers became aligned with Second Wind and its primary mission and vision. Second Wind has added foster homes all over the continental US and Canada in order to be able to address the great need and the vast number of calls from horse owners looking for a quality home their equine friend.

and this on Equine seek: Crossed Sabers Stable & The Second Wind Adoption Program
Crossed Sabers Stable was established in July of 1996. The Second Wind Adoption Program was founded by the stable owner, Celeita Kramer. Second Wind Adoption became a non-profit program the summer of ‘98 and the entire facility became non-profit the summer of 2000.
Location: United States, West Virginia, West Union

and a letter complaint about paypal: PayPal Stole $1200 From Our Account

BY Celeita Kramer

I run a non profit horse adoption program and we use paypal to receive a lot for adoption fees, boarding fees and services that people pay for in our program. We have an extensive adoption contract which basically states that all fees are not reimbursed to any adopter even if they return the horse because those fees are applied to help other horses.

An adopter returned a horse to us and according to her adoption contract was required to pay board on the horse being returned (a service, not merchandise). We accepted the horse back thus providing the service she paid for. We even agreed to only taking 4 months of board and we would cover the rest of his expenses, even if it took a year or more to get his adopted. She disputed the payment through paypal and paypal immediately took it from our account. I'm guessing she did this because she knew she could get away with it because she used a credit card for her payment. Then we received two other payments of $400. total and that is gone as well and not available to us.....

She's got herself labled a non-profit ALL OVER the INTERNET! This is most assuredly fraudulant and I can't believe no one's gone after her on this.

[horseshadow]

Wow, what an up roar! I'm sorry to say, but I have worked for Celetia in the past 8 months. I can explain a lot of the things that went on this summer. Certain things I have no clue about. The income for the program seems to be from donations, adoption fees, and part of her military income. Oh, and from my knowledge of it she is not going out of business any time soon. The program seems to be standing strong. The only thing I have seen wrong is feeding her own horses out of the programs fund. Which is only five horses. Anyways if you have any questions e-mail me or send me a private message.

[Tiempo]

Wow, what an up roar! I'm sorry to say, but I have worked for Celetia in the past 8 months. I can explain a lot of the things that went on this summer. Certain things I have no clue about. The income for the program seems to be from donations, adoption fees, and part of her military income. Oh, and from my knowledge of it she is not going out of business any time soon. The program seems to be standing strong. The only thing I have seen wrong is feeding her own horses out of the programs fund. Which is only five horses. Anyways if you have any questions e-mail me or send me a private message.

And don't forget the small detail of her claiming those donations are tax deductible when they are not.

Interesting, I bet you have some tales to tell if you wanted to :winkgrin:

[MistyBlue]

Well, if she lost a bottle of meds...that *might* explain how insane she comes across on the phone...in e-mails...in begging letters...etc.
But this past summer is a drop in the ocean of her crazy years. Her blacklist? Pretty old. Also pretty much fibbing on a whole lot of them apparently.
E-mailing people calling them f-ing this and c---...all for asking for the correct correct info on her tax status? Nuts.
Feeding horse a few tons of grain daily? Insane.
The l-o-n-g list of people who've dealt with her and came up with the exact same, "Dude, she's nucking futs" diagnoses of her are wrong? :winkgrin:

[Tiempo]

Plus the feeding of 'just' 5 horses is no small chunk of money to be dipping right now.

[cowgirljenn]

The only thing I have seen wrong is feeding her own horses out of the programs fund. Which is only five horses.

If doesn't matter if it is five horses or five hundred - she should not be feeding her personal horses with money designated for "the program". She should also NEVER advertise as a 501c3 and say or even imply that donations are tax-deductible if she's not.

Rescues have a hard time proving themselves legit - and when people condone any poor behavior on the part of rescues (feeding their personal horses with money from the rescue), then they just make the problem even worse.

[equusrocks]

The blacklisted should just bust on her on RipoffReport. Its not like she's a real non profit. :lol:

[LexInVA]

I was gonna type a statement here...but it might tiff off the Moderators...and I'm trying to have a good week. ;)

[Candle]

we feel that Mr. Hogan committed fraud and false marketing of himself, he did not disclose pertinent information about himself when we were dating and after we got engaged. He falsified his situation in his dealings with us, not disclosing that he was an alcoholic and totally dysfunctional, so I do want to make sure I have the same lawyer who can do both this case and the civil case.

Wait, you mean we can file lawsuits for this now?!?!?!?!?!? :eek: I can see it now.....

"Your Honor, this man falsely marketed himself!!! He failed to disclose that he was totally dysfunctional!!! "

Judge: falls off chair laughing

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: This part had me ROFLMAOPIMP.

[LexInVA]

Wait, you mean we can file lawsuits for this now?!?!?!?!?!? :eek: I can see it now.....

"Your Honor, this man falsely marketed himself!!! He failed to disclose that he was totally dysfunctional!!! "

Judge: falls off chair laughing

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: This part had me ROFLMAOPIMP.

I can think of a couple things I'd like to sue her for. Maybe we could all get together and get a class action suit going? Pick the top five things we'd all like to sue her for and go from there? Oh wait...it doesn't work like that...sorry I went to Candy Mountain there for a minute...

[Tiempo]

Wait, you mean we can file lawsuits for this now?!?!?!?!?!? :eek: I can see it now.....

"Your Honor, this man falsely marketed himself!!! He failed to disclose that he was totally dysfunctional!!! "

Judge: falls off chair laughing

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: This part had me ROFLMAOPIMP.

:lol::lol::lol:

I'd be willing to bet the man never touched a drop until he moved in with her ;)

[horseshadow]

Hmmm, I do have to say that Ed or Mr. Hoggan likes do drink every evening. You would think that he is aloud being almost sixty something. Trust me I have seen Celetia drinking also.

[caffeinated]

Oh, and from my knowledge of it she is not going out of business any time soon. The program seems to be standing strong. .

So... she's lying every time she sends out one of these "the sky is falling and we need heeeeeeeelp!" emails?

Nice.

:D

[minnie]

Not to mention all the, if not outright fraudulent, pleas stating "we're going to lose the farm", leading people to believe this is the "charity's" farm instead of saying, "Please help, I'm going to lose MY farm and the program's horses won't have a place to go"! LOL Oh yeah, forgot (knocks self on head!) It's NOT a charity, it's a private enterprise. She said so herownself!

[anuphillbattle]

Second Wind Adoption Program
Our Pet List
Our Featured Pet...
Current News
For more information, please visit our website at: www.crossedsabers.com. email us at secondwindadopt@aol.com
Who We Are
The Crossed Sabers Second Wind Adoption Program is a non-profit equine rescue and adoption program whose mission is providing horses with a second chance at life. At Second Wind we believe adoption is "rescue prevention" and our program works to reduce the problems of neglect, abuse and wrongful death before they occur. We are proud to say we have placed thousands of horses and ponies of 63 different breeds and all disciplines into permanent, loving homes since our inception in 1998. We've placed horses into 43 of the 50 states and Canada. Reasons horses are donated to SWAP: Horse is finishing one career and ready for another Can't physically hold up to the rigors of its current profession or doesn't like its current profession. No longer has a career as a broodmare or breeding stallion, either they are not producing or the owner is changing focus of breeding goals Owner is going to college and can't afford both Owner is no longer breeding, showing, racing or giving lessons Horse is not winning enough to pay the bills Horse has training issues beyond owners capabilities Horse needs to be the center of someone's attention instead of being just another horse in the barn Is a retired police horse, race horse, show horse but still able to start another career Family is moving and can't take the horse Family hardship, ie. divorce, health problems, loss of job, death in family, retiring, down-sizing the herd or farm, lack of time for the horse or for riding Horse needs someone more advanced to handle or ride horse, owner has advanced beyond the capabilities of the horse Child has grown out of the horse/pony Change in personal situation including pregnancy, deteriorating health, getting married, old age, going to college Not going to make a race horse, not fast enough, doesn't have the desire to race, doesn't have the physical conformation or size for racing, showing or its current job Horse has special needs, needs to get out of the sun or heat of the south or needs warmer climate, needs to ridden more, needs to be ridden less, have allergies to a geographical region Change in equine business climate for the professional horse person ... higher taxes, costs of keeping horses, drought winters, etc. Though 90% of our horses are not rescues (most are donated from onwers that have taken very good care of them) but we do take and accept horses that are taken by authorites for abuse and neglect. We identify those horses in our ads. Here's just a few of our donors: Armond Leone. Grand Prix Show Jumper, medical doctor, lawyer and Secretary of USET donated Galant. Armond's better half, Alison Leone, a leading amateur show jumper, donated her beloved mare Heaven Sent . Charles Fenwick, Jr., one of most recognized names in Steeplechasing, donated Tyler Run and Jericho Warning. McLain Ward, one of the leading Grand Prix Show Jumpers in the world, donated Nations Cup Winner, Omnibus. Joseph Hardiman, Huntsman for the Chagrin Valley Hunt Club in Gates Mills, Ohio donated his beloved hunter, Danny. Joseph then adopted Blue, a Dutch Warmblood . Peter Leone, Silver Medalist in the Atlantic Olympics and world famous Grand Prix Show Jumper donated Art (son of Artos). Anne Thompson,Director of Marketing at Fairhill International and Cross Country competitor, donated Kabuki. Mark and Jane Leone- Leading Grand Prix level Show Jumper donated Aztec and Bonnie's Boy. Paul Long- Show Jumper on the Amateur circuit donated Pin High. Paul and Pin High could never be beat at speed events. Phil and Cindy Goldwater donated Tropic Knight (and many more standardbreds), shown here in winners circle at Dover Downs. Barry Butzer and Sun Valley Farms breeds Thoroughbreds for the racing industry. Ali is shown here with her adopter Lily Vonderheide of Ohio. Delmar and Martha Pettigrew, Artisans and Thoroughbred owners in the racing industry, donated their lovely TB mare, Lady Dru. Linda Bland- is one of our many donors who wanted a second career when her horse American Destiny could no longer hold up to the rigors of her current profession. She is shown here with her adopter, Vicky McIntire of Lexington, KY. Our adopters are everything from grand prix level olympic riders, to families from all over the country to professional horse people to university veterinary surgeons, from beginners who have never owned horses to people who have been professionals in the horse business most of their life.
Adopting a friend
The descriptions you read about each horse contains everything we get from the owner. If a horse doesn't meet your every need, do not be offended - simply look at the next horse on the list. There are many, many more horses available for adoption and more horses coming into the program daily. We usually place between 150 to 300 horses each year. Any further information or questions you have regarding any horse should be specific. We will do our best to contact the owner or trainer for your answer. Approved adopters that are a good fit for the horse will be permitted to contact the owner for more information. Our policy is, and always has been, honesty! We expect it from our donors, as well as our adopters. We strive to make sure every horse is placed in the right home, with the right adopter the first time. See the Checklist For Adopting link on our website for more information on our adoption policies. www.crossedsabers.com.
Come Visit Us!
The Crossed Sabers Second Wind Adoption Program is located at Box 24A, Jockey Camp Road, West Union, West Virginia 26456 but we have horses located all over the country in foster homes but many do come to our Headquarters facility in West Virginia. See the If You Visit link on our website for more specific directions. www.crossedsabers.com Second Wind Adoption Program
Rt 2 Box 24A Jockey Camp Road

West Union, WV 26456
Phone: 304-873-3532 or 1435, office hours are 9 to 4 daily, view horses by appointment

Email: secondwindadopt@aol.com

[Skyhorse Rider]

Wish I would have seen all of this before.... I have adopted a horse thru them and the adoption fees were several hundred more than an untrained draft was worth... But I fell in love and I will send in my reports like a good girl. I heard they were seriously wacky from the first owner of my horse. She said to google now I am truly amazed this gang continues to exist... The adoption contract is ludicrous and I refuse to try to buy them out...
I will take her to court if she ever pushed...
Please email me privately if you know any more that I should know....
KLD

[Laurierace]

Wish I would have seen all of this before.... I have adopted a horse thru them and the adoption fees were several hundred more than an untrained draft was worth... But I fell in love and I will send in my reports like a good girl. I heard they were seriously wacky from the first owner of my horse. She said to google now I am truly amazed this gang continues to exist... The adoption contract is ludicrous and I refuse to try to buy them out...
I will take her to court if she ever pushed...
Please email me privately if you know any more that I should know....
KLD

Sort of an off topic comment. Its unfortunate that the animals are the ones who pay
the price for being associated with this lunatic. Only someone who has no inkling of what she is really like would do business with her, and I am sure the pool of unsuspecting people is shrinking by the day. That is going to mean less and less horses will get homes. Your horse is lucky you got him out of there, and that makes it worth the extra that you paid.
I adopted a horse from a rescue in the area with the idea in the back of my mind that the lifetime contract was actually in my benefit. Meaning when he was too old or unable to do the job that I would send him back. It was one of the perks. Now that I am more familiar with the organization (not SWAP) I truly would not send him back if I was ordered to by the courts. I will go on record right now as saying he would mysteriously be found dead in his paddock before that happened, even if it meant I went to jail for contempt. Lets play by their rules and not rock the boat and be happy our horses were one of the lucky ones who lived to tell the tale.

[anuphillbattle]

If you Google Horseygirl55 it will lead you to Ebay. While she was begging for donations...she was BUYING on Ebay... she has 244 transactions from Dec 6, 2005...the ones I saw 'feedback' on were from Sellers - so she BOUGHT on Ebay while people 'donated' to SWAP. The transactions are all over 3 mos. so you can not see what they were, but if you check out the sellers, there aren't many selling horse supplies!! :no:

So, who has copies of any solicitation letters from her during that time?

Here's from Ebay - even has her picture:

"Feedback Profile
horseygirl55 ( 244 [Feedback score is 100 to 499] )

Contact memberView items for sale More options
View ID History
Add to Favorite Sellers
View eBay My World
View Reviews & Guides
Member since Dec-06-05 in United States
Feedback Score: 244
Positive Feedback: 100%

Members who left a positive: 244
Members who left a negative: 0

All positive Feedback: 648

Find out what these numbers mean

Recent Feedback Ratings (last 12 months)
1 month 6 months 12 months
Positive feedback rating Positive 0 0 24
Neutral feedback rating Neutral 0 0 0
Negative feedback rating Negative 0 0 0

Detailed Seller Ratings (since May 2007)
This information will be available when this member receives at least 10 detailed seller ratings. "

[minnie]

Guess I'm a little curious. How many times does she have to cry "wolf" on her contact list before people get a clue and stop sending "donations" to save the program? And how does she keep sucking people into the system? For those of you on this board who helped out for months and had a chance to interact with her, how did she keep you in the dark and how much time did SHE spend helping with the horses while you were there? Also gotta laugh at how she always refers to herself in the 3rd person as the "executive director" when she's the ONLY person on the "board". The royal "our executive director" and all that.

[horseshadow]

Here is the last e-mail I got from her.

(Well, we went to court today. Diana and Trina went with me to morale support. I take everything back about what I said about lawyers being expensive as he did a good job and he was actually entertaining after we got past the hard stuff, it was brevity we all really needed from the stress of past weeks. My lawyer requested that the protection order stay in place so Ed can't harass us, which is good and the lawyers are making a plan for me to be able to go in to the house and prep my stuff for moving. The court gave us 60 days to vacate the farm and we made the decisions about how we are going to separate all the assets. Of course, that was easy, I take what I owned before and what I bought while we were together and same with Ed. The only thing I was upset about was the John Deere Gaiter Ed bought for me and then sold my 4 wheeler and took the proceeds from the 4 wheeler sale. I never saw the money and now he is telling the lawyer he bought the gaiter and wants to keep it. At least I didn't let him sell my brand new lawn tractor like he wanted to or we would really be out.

Since our departure is delayed, Trina and her family have 4 weeks now to find a place and get moved so we will be busy looking for her a home. Anyone know of any place for sale or rent (3 BR) let me know. I would even consider putting a manufactured home on the farm for her and her family so if anyone knows of any good deals let me know. If you all know of any good ideas, please call.

We will continue to clean out and pack up the next few weeks and continue to raise funds and sell/donate things we don't need to move. I may even have my ring sold. I'd rather have a guy absolutely crazy about me (a nice guy) than a fancy ring any day and the proceeds will help the adoption program. Trina should be all moved by the 10th of March and we'll clean up the old farm that week and plan to move the week of the 17th and then move the horses over from Good Friday on through the last weekend of the month and then the first week of April, we'll clean out the last things and be done. I think this is good as it will give Trina's family time to find a place and we can get moved and at least have a month into settling in before Summer really hits but with spring being so critical to our financial year, we'll have to keep our head in the game while all this is going on.

I am still very hurt by all this. Ed actually had the nerve to tell his lawyer that I was a vixen and that I seduced him and made him spend all his retirement. I mean for god sakes, he's 65 and not feeble at all so how in the world could I have seduced him. Gosh I know I'm great in bed (hahaha) but really I think he was just looking for a way to blame me for the fact that he spent 500k while he was drunk and I found him out and proceeded to try to get him to stop drinking, something that he does not want to stop doing at all. When all is done he will still have 1.3 mil in the bank and still be bringing home 5.7k a month in retirement so I can't see where he could possibly think I spent his retirement money. He even had the nerve to tell them he was nearly broke and could not afford paying for our move or helping us.

As sad as it sounds I still wish I could have gotten him into a rehab facility to get him help. Oh well, I guess that is no longer my worry but it is still very sad because I do still believe he is a good man down deep and as crazy as it sounds I still care for him and want the best for him, even though he's been as mean and underhanded lately.

I'm looking forward to having a normal social life again and having friends over without worry about whether he's going to be drunk and embarrassing or not. Nobody think I'm a prude, I mean really.... is any miliary aviator a prude? I think we all like to have fun but being drunk daily at 8am when you're trying to run a business gets old very quick. It will be even better to not get woke up most nights with him stumbling into walls, doors and the fireplace. And for so many months I made fun of him that I was going to put runway lights on the floor to direct him to the bathroom but that was before I realized the problem was more than just night disorientation. So very sad really that I didn't see what was happening. I just never thought a guy w/ 30 years in the Navy and over 20 with a major defense company could ever have such a huge addiction. This really takes me back to the whole idea that people with loads of money are usually very unhappy as he was always depressed, everything was always wrong. He was retired, he could do whatever he wanted to do, he had me and of course, I'm pretty wonderful (LOL), this great farm and tons of money to do anything and he was miserable. How can that be? This was particularly hard for me as I've always been easily pleased and have always felt that anything was possible with work. It will be nice to be around very positive people again. Our work is hard enough already, we have to have people around that believe we can do the impossible to keep us all going strong. In short I'll be looking for all my buddies to visit and I can't wait.

Well, quick update. We'll still need help with packing and moving horses/hay and we'll have use of the guest house until we totally have to vacate in April, its open every weekend until we move so come anytime. Plus the vet is coming on the 16th to do the rest of the castrations of the last of the youngsters from the lewis county rescue group. We will be doing business as usual so if you want a horse trained, exercised, lessons or anything we are going to work hard to keep things going through this move so we can try to survive this winter. We lost over 100k in income last year, nearly half what we normally see each year... all from the move and the draught and we can't afford to have that happen again if we are going to be alive in 2009. I know I know, it sounds like a lot of money but when you have 44 horses in the program you automatically have a huge overhead in their care and no one person can do this job alone, that is for sure, its very much a team effort. So consider us for your adoptions/donations/training, etc. We won't have this fancy farm to work on but what we offer is still the same good work. Thank you all for being such great friends, thank you for all the encouragement too. Now lets find Trina's family a home and get some horses/dogs into great homes!! Celeita

Thank you all for your friendship, inspiration and support,


Celeita A.Kramer
Celeita A. Kramer, Founder, Executor & Stable Owner
SWAP International HQ at Crossed Sabers Stable)

Now she is trying to find a home for her poor trainer. :lol:

[LexInVA]

Where's the Law and Order doink doink sound when you need it...ah here it is (mwavs.com/0058536645/MP3S/TV_Shows/Law_And_Order/logavel.mp3).

[sidepasser]

This email sounds like sort of a rational type person wrote it - completely different from some of her rantings..

she sounds like she is bi-polar to me - ranting one day, calm the next - high as a kite one day, down in the dumps the next.

Strange person and I am SO glad I ran the other way rather than adopting..I so don't want to be on any list that she may be involved in!

[minnie]

she may not be "ranting" in this email, but it's still "ME ME ME" through and through. Let's see, Ed worked over 50 years to amass $875k ( I think that was the original amount of cash) and she helped him spend $500k in a little over a year and I'm sure she was pressing to spend more of it and he should be HAPPY because he had HER and the farm and she's such a wonderful person that what more could he want?????

[LexInVA]

I hope to God my next girlfriend isn't that kind of woman.

[ddashaq]

Wow, that lady sounds like a real nutter. I have thought she was off her head since someone posted a link to a friesian that she had listed with an adoption fee of $10K. I am sorry for anyone who has crossed paths with her.

[clanter]

........this great farm and tons of money to do anything and he was miserable. How can that be? .............

Oh come on I have driven through West Virginia and I can not figure out how they even keep people in that place … let alone live there

....We lost over 100k in income last year, nearly half what we normally see each year...

and if there is a God it should go down to zero this year

[LexInVA]

........this great farm and tons of money to do anything and he was miserable. How can that be? .............

Oh come on I have driven through West Virginia and I can not figure out how they even keep people in that place … let alone live there

....We lost over 100k in income last year, nearly half what we normally see each year...

and if there is a God it should go down to zero this year

WV is full of people making money off of exploiting natural resources on the land they own. It's also a very easy place to grow the green.

[anuphillbattle]

ddashaq - the Friesian disappeared from the available adoption horses... maybe the 'donor' discovered that she wasn't 501(c)3 and they couldn't take a write off. :no:

Things went her way in court so of course she is happy and bragging about it. Poor Ed!

Wonder if the IRS knows " lost $100K....half of what we usually see"

added: I wonder why it is easier to move a family of 6 out of her house than to find a place for herself! As I understand it, she doesn't spend a lot of time in the barn anyway.

[FrostyZone]

I have been on here for a couple of days now...just looking at the posts...Lets see....Where do I start....I know C.and I know Mr.Ed Hogan and I know.........Thats all I have to say about that.....:D

[EponaRoan]

I know something you don't - nanny, nanny, boo boo. :rolleyes:

Glad you took the time to share that scintillating news, FrostyZone.

[FrostyZone]

Im just telling you all...I know just about everyone up there....I know Ed has worked his a.. off (for real)

[minnie]

It's not nice to tease.......................

[Tiempo]

Oh Frosty...c'mon do tell :cool:

[Angela Freda]

"I know I know, it sounds like a lot of money but when you have 44 horses in the program"

So how come there are not 44 horses advertised for adoption?
Or are some of those 44 the ones adopted out, in which case they cost you... let's see... $O.
*insert eye roll here*

[LexInVA]

It's not nice to tease.......................

Yeah...nothing is worse than a woman who will tease but not please. :cry:

[minnie]

Geez, o.k. I actually took some time to try and wade through her website. I'd never looked at the donor agreements before and was checking on the wording. Couldn't believe how much people have to PAY to have their horse adopted out! Amazing - from $1500 up to $5000.00. It costs you $500 just to have the horse adopted out through her program if you keep it at home. And you're under contract for a YEAR! So not only do you not get a tax deduction because she's not a non-profit, you pay for the privilege. I can't understand why anyone would use this avenue as opposed to all the legitimate non-profit adoption agencies available.

LexInVa - you are sooooooooo bad! LOL

[LexInVA]

Geez, o.k. I actually took some time to try and wade through her website. I'd never looked at the donor agreements before and was checking on the wording. Couldn't believe how much people have to PAY to have their horse adopted out! Amazing - from $1500 up to $5000.00. It costs you $500 just to have the horse adopted out through her program if you keep it at home. And you're under contract for a YEAR! So not only do you not get a tax deduction because she's not a non-profit, you pay for the privilege. I can't understand why anyone would use this avenue as opposed to all the legitimate non-profit adoption agencies available.

LexInVa - you are sooooooooo bad! LOL

You can tell she tries to appeal to the guilty conscience whenever she sends out her annual "I need money NOW or the horses will suffer!" fundraiser memos. If you look at photos of her operation, you can tell where a lot of the money goes, and that's into her needs. AFAIK, she's not an active member of the military and it looks like she hasn't been for some time so she's not collecting much if anything from them in terms of a paycheck.

[minnie]

yeah, I looked at pictures of the house and the farm too. She sure does like RED! LOL If she was active and retired after 20 years, she'd have a military retirement check.

[MIsMyName]

I have to chime in because I am still in disbelief after receiving the first email from SWAP. I don't know what I can't believe more, someone airing their dirty laundry over the internet or not proofreading before doing so.:eek: I responded to the email and was assured that the horses are well cared for and that everything (hay, feed, farrier:confused:, vet:confused:, etc.) is always paid for months in advanced. She claimed I couldn't possibly know the whole story from just one letter. Really? I just don't get what good can come out of this plea for help - maybe animal rights activist coming to their aid, I don't know. I just don't feel comfortable sending financial support to a program that is run by someone(s) that seems so unstable. I see the whole thing backfiring and where will that leave the poor horses - as if they don't have enough people problems. On the other hand, if their plea works, I'm gonna set myself up a "boo hoo" account.

[amanda.stewart]

Let's all chip in on this little gem ;)

So glad all those hard-earned dollars went to someone who really deserved it. I'm assuming that pool is a therapeutic equine pool :eek:

http://www.unitedcountry.com/Search06/SearchViewProperty.asp?SID=53922745&Item=652266&Lcnt=L&Page=1&Office=47031&No=47031-33020&AU=N&FT=P


THE INVITING FRONT ENTRANCE TO THIS MAGNIFICENT AND PRIVATE ESTATE IS FRAMED BY SOME OF THE LARGEST WATER MAPLE TREES STILL LIVING IN WEST VIRGINIA. BUILT IN 1894 THIS REMODELED TWO STORY HOME WITH A CUT STONE FOUNDATION HAS IMPRESSIVE FRONT COLUMNS AND FOUR VERANDAS - TWO SCREENED AND TWO COVERED. THE DETAILED HOME HAS 2 BR, 2 BA, ONE W/ A JACUZZI AND SAUNA, FEATURES HARDWOOD FLOORS, 4 WOOD OR GAS FIRE-PLACES, 2 ANTIQUE MANTLES, CERAMIC TILE FLOOR COUNTRY KITCHEN WITH CENTER ISLAND AND BREAKFAST NOOK,A DEN, PATIO, DECK, IN GROUND HEATED SWIMMING POOL AND A GAZEBO. FACILITY FEATURES HORSE FRIENDLY WOOD BOARD FENCING, 60+ ACRES OF HAYFIELDS AND 30+ ACRES OF PASTURE PADDOCKS W/CROSS FENCING; AN OFFICIAL SIZE RIDING ARENA WITH LIGHTS, NEWER HORSE BARN WITH SIXTEEN, 12X12 STALLS, SILO, TACK ROOM AND CONCRETE WASH BAY W/ HOT & COLD RUNNING WATER.NEW 30X80 HAY AND EQUIPMENT POLE BARN, ORIGINAL OLDER BARN/OFFICE W/ HEAT & A/C, INCLUDES A 10X30 KENNEL W/ FENCED DOG YARD. ADDITIONAL 2 DOOR HEATED GARAGE WITH SHOWER/BATH AND STORAGE AREA FOR FARM EQUIPMENT. 3 BR, 1 1/2 BA GUESTHOUSE.HOMES AND OFFICE HAVE SATELITE/TV DISHES. 2 NEW DRILLED WATER WELLS, 3 STANDARD SEPTICS. LIMITED FREE GAS. CONTACT JUDY TURNER, LISTING AGENT, AT 304-481-8095 OR JDTPROPERTY@VERIZON.NET. SHOWN BY APPOINTMENT ONLY TO QUALIFIED BUYERS. PRICED AT $989,000.

[LexInVA]

Looks like she will be heading back to her old place.

[amanda.stewart]

Is there a sauna? an in-house masseuse? MAN--am I in the wrong business! "Clearly tax fraud is the way to go..." [OK, I'm quoting a SWAP adopter with the MARE FROM HELL who is too chicken to post--Seriously, "chicken" is beside me, laughing--until she remembers MARE FROM HELL]

[LexInVA]

I wonder what is going to happen next.

[MIsMyName]

Retired and you live at a place that looks like that and you need to drink yourself silly everyday before noon! Something's telling me it was the ungrateful person he had to live with that pushed him to the bottle. To bad he can't just keep the place and get rid of the garbage.

[amanda.stewart]

It is all very sad--a thing LIKE SWAP is a good idea...but if it were done legally and truthfully

For example, I have a gelding right now that doesn't do any job at our farm, but he'd make a great trail horse for someone. I'd GIVE him to the right home, but it has to be a horse person that has riding skills and isn't a first-time owner (he's the kind that WOULD take advantage if you'd let him), and we do NOT want to sell him. I'd rather see him go where he can be a laid back trail horse than get money, and I'd like him back if it didn't work out, and he is NEVER EVER to go somewhere I don't approve of or to a public auction.

Yet...taking the time to find such a home and follow a horse is a task...and a program LIKE this one would serve a need in the horse world. Oh well...someone out there needs to start a different place.

Maybe a place in cyber-space would work for swaps and freebies to good owners???? A "classifieds" for these kinds of horses? It seems that the SWAP horses that are fostered and/or kept at their owner's farm until adoption isn't really much more than a web listing with info on the horse...not much different than the "classifieds" I'm suggesting...

thoughts on this?

[EponaRoan]

Well, there's ROAN for off-track horses or horses that were bred for the track but who never made it for whatever reason, but the owner is the one responsible for doing all the background checking and followup.

Racehorse Outplacement Assistance Network
Home Page: http://www.quarterpole.com/ROAN
Mailing List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/roan/
Message Board: http://racehorseplace.proboards77.com/

There's no charge to post horses available or wanted on the board or mailing lists.

[anuphillbattle]

Amanda - you are right and that is why so many people supported the idea, donated and volunteered. Unfortunately greed is an ugly thing :( Unfortunately Celeita had the ability to do a good thing and she really abused the situation apparently for her own gratification. It wasn't about the horses ...they became the vehicle to obtain money and sadly many paid with their suffering and deaths.

With the number of people on her blacklist and the very many that are not on the list but who were not good homes, the average caring horseowner has as much, if not a better chance to successfully place their horses. There are MANY great adopters as well and those are the lucky horses.

The (by SWAP)concept of an adoption program is great, the execution leaves much to be desired.

Follow-up?? I would bet that there was never any check on the adopters who did NOT send in their annual report. A reminder may have been posted on the website and a mention in a solicitation email...but no one made sure that every horse was accounted for. :no:

[julpez]

When she first said they were going to loose the old farm and this nice man was going to let them buy a farm from him ( with a contract) she failed to mention it was her lover!! to all of us how supported her program. I was shocked at her rambling email about how he was a drunk, didnt want to marry her, etc.At that time she racked up thousands of dollars in money to help pay the loan that was due on the old farm. I wont be donating anymore,I think the program is good but needs better management of its funds.I have never recevied an email from her saying come out and support our annual benefit horse show , barn show etc. Its always were on the bring of starvation and dispare sent money via paypal asap!! I can see paying swap 200. a month for board on your horse if its at her barn, but not if you keep it at your place until its adopted out !! Thats just my thoughts :)

[Tiramit]

I got it too! :mad:

I've tried to block her e-mail addy, but somehow every time she sends out one of her warped, insane missives, it ends up in my inbox!

I just want her to go far, far away. Like Antarctica....


If you notified her to take you off of the list and she continues to send you email, she can be prosecuted under the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003.

What a whack job.

[amanda.stewart]

So...it seems at least a web page for "adoptables" that are "fostered" or at their current owner's farm needs to exist. Wouldn't that make sense? Have a cyber "SWAP" that would allow folks to post horses that are available for minimal cost (and/or free) and have decent horsemen in that area check up on the place prior to adoption and check on the horse from time to time? Kind of like a "Dreamhorse" but more than just a web classified source. It seems that's mostly what SWAP was anyway, or am I wrong here?

Doesn't seem all that difficult if folks chipped in...

I too like the idea of adopting my guy out rather than selling him. I want to KNOW where he is and KNOW that he's not going to end up in a public auction (or worse...like Mexico)

[Bancroft]

This is my first time posting anything on this thread, but I was urged to by a friend who is very familiar with SWAP. She just did not want get exposed to the potential wrath of the "executor", but felt that the real facts needed to be posted. Her goal is the welfare of the horses first and then addressing the issues of what SWAP really is and then the great con game that has sucked countless people in. First the horses- Who would put 30 to 40 horses into the new place that has less than half that many stalls and what used to be fairly nice grass paddocks that now appear to be a mud mire according to people who have been there. Her previous farm evidently has more stalls but less paddock area with part of the fencing is barbed wire, against SWAP's own rules and all manure just piled up outside one end of the stable in a gigantic pile. SWAP appears to be going back there soon since they have been "evicked".

On the scam side-There is definite proof of fraud, even still on the SWAP site, donations "tax deductible", previous listing in national publications of SWAP as both a non-profit AND a 501(c)(3). You cannot erase everything in cyber space. The jerk she sucked in supposedly paid off her mortgage on the "old" farm before it was "foreclosed" AND bought the "new" farm where SWAP is now located.

I cannot believe people are still donating and adopting even if a small part of what has been posted is true. More postings from us will try and convey facts, not emotions or conjecture. This would a great soap oprea if it was not so bizzare, it is supposed to about the welfare of the horses, correct?

[LexInVA]

The only way she can be shut down for good is for those who know what she's doing to come forward. Otherwise, the authorities are just going to ignore her.

[amanda.stewart]

Where would you start? The authorities in her own county? It's OVER time that something be done about this--even for HER own good.

[LexInVA]

Where would you start? The authorities in her own county? It's OVER time that something be done about this--even for HER own good.

I'd start with the IRS. Getting those who have knowledge of her operations together in one place to talk to them would go a long way towards shutting her down. Then they could examine her tax returns and start an investigation from there. Going to the local authorities would accomplish nothing. They do not have the knowledge, expertise, resources, or interest required for shutting her down.

[amanda.stewart]

This is on the IRS website...wonder what would happen if they got SEVERAL letters???:eek:


How Do You Report Suspected Tax Fraud Activity?

If you suspect or know of an individual or company that is not complying with the tax laws, you may report this activity by completing Form 3949-A. You may fill out Form 3949-A online, print it and mail it to:

Internal Revenue Service
Fresno, CA 93888

If you do not wish to use Form 3949-A, you may send a letter to the address above. Please include the following information, if available:

Name and address of the person you are reporting
The taxpayer identification number (social security number for an individual or employer identification number for a business)
A brief description of the alleged violation, including how you became aware of or obtained the information
The years involved
The estimated dollar amount of any unreported income
Your name, address and daytime telephone number
Although you are not required to identify yourself, it is helpful to do so. Your identity can be kept confidential.

[anuphillbattle]

If you look further into fraud on the IRS website and /or other sites dealing with IRS fraud, SWAP's activities are probably too small to bother with. Others are in the multi millions and 100's of million $$s . Apparently they need specific information in order to be bothered to pursue.

It seems she/it HAS been reported , according to several posts here.

[MIsMyName]

Blacklist seems to be gone from her site. Wonder why?

[Alpha_Mare]

Blacklist seems to be gone from her site. Wonder why?

Because Celeita finally screwed up and put someone (a very reputable rescue organization) on her bogus blacklist and the rescue went after her with "guns blazing". They hired an attorney and at first Celeita just "modified" the blacklist and removed several names from it, I'm kind of surprised the whole list is gone but the reputable rescue did say that since they had to hire an attorney they were going to persue it to the full extent of the law. It's a pretty shocking story but the moral of it all is Celeita finally crossed a line that has had some real consequences for her.

As for the IRS tax-exempt stuff. One of Celeita's best friends husband is an IRS agent so I don't think turning her in to the IRS is going to be of much consequence to her and I would suspect that is how she has managed to stay under the radar all these years but by all means keep trying just maybe if they receive enough complaints they will finally do something.

[bossmare1234]

I just saw she appeared on Fuglyhorseoftheday/blogspot on Feb. 21st. I knew Fugly would make mincemeat out of her. I did see the blacklist was on her site for awhile now its gone again, wonder why??

[ChocoMare]

Hmmm, maybe this is just cached but I found it:

http://www.crossedsabers.com/OUR%20HORSES/Horse%20Cases.htm

[RosewoodFarm]

Yes, the blacklist is back.

Found this through a google search http://www.xomreviews.com/crossedsabers.com
maybe we should all post a review.

[LexInVA]

I wish I could make it on that list! I am dying to find out what she would do if someone on there actually confronted her. I bet half those people probably never had any contact with SWAP and she likely pulled the names and information from various horse abuse stories.

[MIsMyName]

Anyone else get the latest email from the SWAP/Crossed Sabers owner? I just did. She is trying the "Steal from Peter to pay Paul" pyramid scam.

[LexInVA]

Anyone else get the latest email from the SWAP/Crossed Sabers owner? I just did. She is trying the "Steal from Peter to pay Paul" pyramid scam.

What is she going for now?

[MIsMyName]

I believe her words were "financial freedom".

[LexInVA]

Ahh...this gets more interesting by the week....

[eventgroupie2]

MIsMyName - you have a pm

[MIsMyName]

Eventgroupie2 - you got a pm.

Should I post it or let it go?

[LexInVA]

I'm glad people are starting to wise up on the horse forums. Hopefully this will be the end of her nonsense. If I didn't already have stuff to do tomorrow, I'd say we charter a bus and go visit her so we can laugh at her as she leaves the farm.

[LexInVA]

Eventgroupie2 - you got a pm.

Should I post it or let it go?

Come on...you know you want to....:winkgrin:

[MIsMyName]

Oh Okay! Here it is...but I wouldn't click on the link she has posted in the email. I don't trust what's in it or what it will do.


Dear friends, Recently because of the changes in our farm situation I started looking for ways for the program to make more money and make more money for the stable since the economy is so bad right now and our adoptions are in direct relation with the economy. I'm already doing the happy dance because I've found something that could change my life and the lives of all our friends and family.

If you are serious about complete and life long financial freedom, a business that will work for you when you are sleeping or even playing. This is something you can do while you are still working but I promise you won't be working at your job long because you'll quickly realize you don't need to. I talked to a guy in the business this morning that has made 10 million dollars since he joined in December 2006. The guy that signed me up just got started this month and already made 2k, the guy that signed him up started in October and has made 20k already and all you really do is place ads for this wonderful system. There are people making between 25 to 40k a month and as much a 7 figures a year and it only gets better over time, Like any new job you work longer hours in the beginning to learn everything but once its up and running for you the money starts rolling in.... just amazing. There is no cold calling to make, nothing to sell and its totally automated. Click here to change your life:

http://www.thousanddollarprofits.com/84274

If you sign up at this link, I will be showing you how to made your dreams come true and you will work directly with me in making us both financially free. I'm in shock over what I've found. Even if you think I'm crazy, give me the chance to prove you wrong, I think you will be sooooo surprised. This is a serious business proposal that can change your life!!

Even if you aren't interested in complete financial freedom or you think this is crazy, get the vacation plan as its gives you a life time membership to go to 4 and 5 star resorts/cruises/flights for as much as 80% off normal fees. Geesal, that in itself makes it worth it.

See you at the Top, said best by Zig Ziglar.... Come along with me and lets make a million or two or 10. :))

Pass this along to your friends... the ones that really want financial freedom but please don't post on forums/chat rooms, etc... we are looking for serious people. Celeita

Thank you all for your friendship, inspiration and support,


Celeita A.Kramer
Celeita A. Kramer
Founder, Executor & Stable Owner. SWAP Int'l HQ/Crossed Sabers Stable

[caffeinated]

Wow. Part of me wants to laugh at the obvious pyramid scheme...

Is she REALLY that gullible and stupid?

[LexInVA]

By the Holiness of Hasselhoff, there's THOUSANDS of cloned websites just like that one link! I really gotta look into this. If she's hocking this crap, this could really go a long way towards putting her in the ground next to a hill of Fire Ants where she belongs.

[sweetwater]

Wow, did this chick just crawl out from under a rock? I think I learned about these things when I was about 18.

I hope she hangs herself. What a wack job.:lol:

Did you see the guy in the link? She's probably got some crazy dream of them getting together, you know, now that 'ol Ed is gone.

[arabhorse2]

Omigawd, Celeita is Alysheba?! :eek: ;)

[Policy of Truth]

I was JUST thinking that as I was reading the e-mail posted! That's creepy!:eek::lol:

[LexInVA]

Did she send out something similar? I've been reading her posts and they look too articulate to have come from Celeita.

[Policy of Truth]

She was involved in some sort of pyramid scheme as well. I do not know if they are the same person or not, but Alysheba had something in her profile about "ask me how to make $$" or something of that ilk.

[ab06]

I guarantee that she just cut and pasted that letter from whatever marketing material the company sent to her. Those pyramid schemes always have people do that because the companies know their "victims" are generally too uneducated to make an argument for the product on their own.

[Skyhorse Rider]

I received a post from Celeita Kramer, Executive Director of SWAP requesting me to remove the one and only post I made at this forum. I thought about this request long and hard.

I need to explain that I am 100% disabled and on oxygen 24/7. But, I can put my oxygen in a backpack and ride. Since I have had Skyhorse Jazz, a former SWAP horse, my life has turned around. I actually didn't go to WV but saw him at his owner's place. Now I am mentally and physically 100 times better than I was before him. He is the light of my life.

Today my trainer told me that I had to put this behind me and concentrate on Jazz and my future. That further negative contact with Ms Kramer will only hurt me. That my horse will know I am upset and it effect our working together.

So I am asking that the moderator of COTH please remove my FIRST post. Thank you everyone for your understanding.

[minnie]

I'm glad people are starting to wise up on the horse forums. Hopefully this will be the end of her nonsense. If I didn't already have stuff to do tomorrow, I'd say we charter a bus and go visit her so we can laugh at her as she leaves the farm.

LOL! I can just see it - people lined up on both sides of the roads with banners and cheering as she leaves!

[MistyBlue]

Skyrider...sorry to hear Ms Kramer is trying to bully you despite your apparent health issues. FWIW...you can erase your own posts. Go to the post and click edit..then erase the content and just leave a * or something and click update. It will remove the post's contents.

Celeita, hi there! (waving) I'm betting nobody here is shocked to find out for a fact that you've been reading this. :winkgrin: Now everyone can see that you bully the disabled too. Nice job. :D

[minnie]

"Found this through a google search http://www.xomreviews.com/crossedsabers.com
maybe we should all post a review."

That site states she's a non-profit 501(c) and in all 50 states. Since this involves interstate trafficking and internet (I.e. wire fraud?) perhaps the FBI could wade in on the investitgation? Didn't they get in on the "sales fraud" and help get those 2 trainers put in jail for defrauding people out of their horses?

[anuphillbattle]

SkyhorseRider - Nice to hear that your horse has brought you happiness and better health. Your trainer is right - put any negative thoughts and stuff away...there are plenty of people here to carry on.:lol:

Sorry Celeita has bullied you...shame on her. :( You read her contract, thought it was ridiculous and signed it anyway... all for the love of a horse. I'm sure you expect to honor your commitment to Skyhorse - so just send in your factual annual reports once a year and ignore her... like many others do. I'm guessing she perhaps suggested that you could send the horse back too...she has told other people they should do that too. tsk! tsk! Forget about 'buying him' ... not necessary.:no: You probably paid more than 'market value' as an adoption fee... it's only money...who cares!

But you are in excellent company - she bullies ANYONE who mentions anything irregular or bad about her or what she has done. Anyone who questions her actions and words.

Just ignore her and give that horse a hug and keep getting better!! :D:D

[Bancroft]

That bizzare email about get rich quick is garbage. It is a well known scam and pyramid scheme, do not click on the link in the email. It will spawn multiple emails pushing you to join and send money. A classic late night infomercial deal. Playing the lottery would be a better choice-you buy the ticket, she gets the money. Hey, how about armed robbery, seems like the only thing she has not tried

The Skyhorserider saga is appalling, demanding the horse back, why not just cut the oxygen supply tube.

[sweetwater]

Maybe it's the bleeding heart in me, but when I first started reading about the blacklist and all the crazy emails, I thought "what a crazy b...", but the longer this goes on, I'm sad for her.

There is obviously some type of mental illness going on, and all this drama on the Internet has got to fuel it somehow. Now that I can start to see the depth of her problems, I regret the snarky comments I made, because I'm starting to think this is a truly sick lady.

What a sad way to live life. I hope she has someone close to her that can help her get some help.

[anuphillbattle]

...

The Skyhorserider saga is appalling, demanding the horse back, why not just cut the oxygen supply tube.

Wait a minute...Let's clarify here - no one said she(Celeita) 'demanded the horse back'...it was I who SPECULATED that she 'suggested' that the horse be sent back and I don't know that for a fact...just guessing because she has 'suggested' to other people that if they are critical of her or 'the program' that they should send their horse(s) back.

Don't mean to jump on you Bancroft, but wanted to keep the facts straight and certainly don't want to stress Skyhorserider or make things difficult for her.

[anuphillbattle]

several people have asked how to search for a charity - so:

Schedule 78 is easy to access as well as an 800 number for the IRS. They are very helpful.

http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=96136,00.html
or call IRS (toll-free) at 1-877-829-5500.

[Bancroft]

Incredible, now she is hawking the pyramid scam on her website, even bragging how much the "program" will make on each deal. Let's all rush and sign up. What a con artist, again.

[arabhorse2]

Did she send out something similar? I've been reading her posts and they look too articulate to have come from Celeita.

Articulate?! Lex, c'mon sweetie; there was nothing intelligent and articulate about Aly, except that she was hysterically funny and didn't realize it. Moreso when she was trying to be veddy, veddy serious and oh so sophisticated. :D

Ask someone, anyone about the BJ and sammitches quote. Or how she and her hubby were soooo rich and she didn't need to work, and you could be wealthy too, jusk ask her! And how the age of her kid kept changing, as did the number of them she was supposed to have.

Oh, and let's not forget the unstallion, and that hideous needed-to-be-gelded at birth THING upon which she was supposedly going to base her future breeding program.

I'm sorry that Aly/Remember Ferdinand isn't around anymore, because literally everything she posted turned into an hysterical train wreck. Yes, I'm crass and low-life for finding amusement in her. But you would have too, if you'd been around in her hey day. :lol:

[Hamlinpiper]

Erpp. Sorry for the French but I am about to come unglued. The story...

We bought a big ole farm in WVA and are about ready to put a couple of critters on it. Saw the Crossed Sabers add - knowing nothing from nothing visited the 'new' farm. Want to adopt a mule and a retired racer with a blown knee. ( We're old - 1000 pound dogs, as Celita calls them, are our cup o tea.) I THOUGHT her 'prices' were a bit steep - but who knew?

We're looking at around a grand, critters, tack, buckets, etc., just the basics, and were going to pay her on Tuesday...my wife has been working her butt off for two days getting the info for her application. She bought every book ever printed I think.

I got to cruising, found this forum, and have been mesmerized for hours ( it's now 2:39am.)

I printed out some highlights ( 21 pages of highlights) for my wife to see in the morning - her heart will break.

We have signed nothing, and in fact I need a few days more work before the stalls will be ready, and the reference requests have only just gone out.

Somebody, anybody, tell me something! If, as is the concensus, this is someplace I should avoid - where should I go? We want two animals, because I don't think an animal not raised alone should be alone. We would LIKE to be able to clomp around the back field and the hill side on at least one of them. As I saw mentioned earlier, old 'fugly's' would be hunky dory.

PM me PLEASE with unpublishable scoop, as well with some leads.

Thanks, Gene

[EponaRoan]

Be prepared for her to get nasty if/when you tell her that you've changed your mind.

As far as adoption, there's the Giveaway forum here. Or google horse adoption West Virginia. And do ask here first about peoples' experiences with various rescues. There are a lot of good rescues, but there are also a lot of bad rescues out there.

[Laurierace]

Erpp. Sorry for the French but I am about to come unglued. The story...

We bought a big ole farm in WVA and are about ready to put a couple of critters on it. Saw the Crossed Sabers add - knowing nothing from nothing visited the 'new' farm. Want to adopt a mule and a retired racer with a blown knee. ( We're old - 1000 pound dogs, as Celita calls them, are our cup o tea.) I THOUGHT her 'prices' were a bit steep - but who knew?

We're looking at around a grand, critters, tack, buckets, etc., just the basics, and were going to pay her on Tuesday...my wife has been working her butt off for two days getting the info for her application. She bought every book ever printed I think.

I got to cruising, found this forum, and have been mesmerized for hours ( it's now 2:39am.)

I printed out some highlights ( 21 pages of highlights) for my wife to see in the morning - her heart will break.

We have signed nothing, and in fact I need a few days more work before the stalls will be ready, and the reference requests have only just gone out.

Somebody, anybody, tell me something! If, as is the concensus, this is someplace I should avoid - where should I go? We want two animals, because I don't think an animal not raised alone should be alone. We would LIKE to be able to clomp around the back field and the hill side on at least one of them. As I saw mentioned earlier, old 'fugly's' would be hunky dory.

PM me PLEASE with unpublishable scoop, as well with some leads.

Thanks, Gene

I hate to do this to the horses, because it does sound like you would provide a wonderful home, but you seriously need to avoid her like the plague. I will PM you a different rescue, hopefully you are within their adoption range, I am not sure where you are in WV.

[minnie]

Run RUN RUN away fast as you can!!!!! While looking for a suitable adoption agency, ask around - there are an awful lot of people looking to give their horses away free to a good home these days. I have 2 myself, but neither are rideable, so wouldn't suit your purposes. Stay far away from this lady!

[minnie]

Don't know how to insert the link, but if you paste this title onto the search area, you should many more pages of enlightening information on Celeita and SWAP. Wow. Have you seen this "blacklist" of horse adopters?

[Bancroft]

She actually can get ugly if she sees the post. She has had several of the horses around for a LONG time, especially those that have age or other problems. She is probably focused on the tough to adopt out ones. She probably loved finding someone that wanted a field pet or two. Get ready for the we had a deal rant.

[sidepasser]

Erpp. Sorry for the French but I am about to come unglued. The story...

We bought a big ole farm in WVA and are about ready to put a couple of critters on it. Saw the Crossed Sabers add - knowing nothing from nothing visited the 'new' farm. Want to adopt a mule and a retired racer with a blown knee. ( We're old - 1000 pound dogs, as Celita calls them, are our cup o tea.) I THOUGHT her 'prices' were a bit steep - but who knew?

We're looking at around a grand, critters, tack, buckets, etc., just the basics, and were going to pay her on Tuesday...my wife has been working her butt off for two days getting the info for her application. She bought every book ever printed I think.

I got to cruising, found this forum, and have been mesmerized for hours ( it's now 2:39am.)

I printed out some highlights ( 21 pages of highlights) for my wife to see in the morning - her heart will break.

We have signed nothing, and in fact I need a few days more work before the stalls will be ready, and the reference requests have only just gone out.

Somebody, anybody, tell me something! If, as is the concensus, this is someplace I should avoid - where should I go? We want two animals, because I don't think an animal not raised alone should be alone. We would LIKE to be able to clomp around the back field and the hill side on at least one of them. As I saw mentioned earlier, old 'fugly's' would be hunky dory.

PM me PLEASE with unpublishable scoop, as well with some leads.

Thanks, Gene


RUN...FAR...AWAY...NOW.

go to a reputable charity like Sunkissed Acres or Canter or savethehorses.org..somewhere, anywhere..look at the board here in the giveways section. Many fine "clunkers" here..you could pet, groom and clunk around your place to your heart's content and the owners won't be "after you" for money all the time.

save yourself grief so we won't have to read about your experiences with that place as well.

[gieriscm]

Hamlinpiper if I were looking for a horse like the one you described, I'd go to Canter Mid-Atlantic (http://www.canterusa.org/midatlantic/index.htm), click on the "Trainer Horses" link on the left side of the page, and take a serious look at Smarty. He's already done the "companion horse" thing, so you won't have all those just-off-the-track issues to deal with. If he doesn't do it for you, there are plenty of others.

Personally, I'm gaga over Petit Roulette but my husband would kill me if I brought home another horse right now... just no extra $$$ for one. :(

[Hamlinpiper]

Hey all,

Thanks for the quick responses. As far as taking guff from her, I'm a retired Customs Inspector. I have heard more invective than the IRS. ( Well, THAT'S a lie, but you get the point.)

If she DOES start anything, then that will convince me of the validity of all these posts...and since all calls are recorded at the flip of a switch ( old habits die hard ) I doubt anything transpires to equal that horrid response she sent someone.

Do I talk like that? Given proper incentive, HELL yes. Would I put it out there on line for the whole world to see, being a legitimate business owner and all that? HELL NO! I'd have to be nuts. Ohhhh....right.

We're located VERY close to her. South of West Union on 18 right at the Gilmer County line - so without any prior information, it was natural that we research her place first.

There's been no deal, there's not even a submitted application. This is my wifes bailiwick, and I'm leaving the actual decision up to her. ( She may want them in order to get them out of there - but having to continually deal with this type of person isn't something I retired and moved to God's country to have to do - we'll see.) She's still asleep - blissfully unaware - there is a stack of stuff waiting for her - and your responses will be added to the list.

I should have gone with goats - the turds are smaller and when they tromp on your foot it doesn't hurt NEAR as much. ( Actually she wants both.)

I'm off to visit the free horse area - who knows?

Thanks again....

Gene

[gieriscm]

...having to continually deal with this type of person isn't something I retired and moved to God's country to have to do - we'll see.

Ummmmmmmmmmm... per the adoption contract, you'll be dealing with SWAP for the rest of the horse's natural life, unless you are found to be an unfit owner, in which case they will seize the horse. Excerpts from the contract:

The Adopter understands that Second Wind Adoption Program retains ownership of the Adopted Animal for
its entire life. Under no circumstances will the Adopter sell, encumber, assign, dispose of, or transfer any
interest in the Adopted Animal, or remove the same from his/her immediate care without a specific and
previous written agreement with Second Wind Adoption Program.

In the event that Second Wind Adoption Program determines that the Adopter is in breach or default of any
term or condition of this Agreement, a representative of Second Wind Adoption Program may also enter the
facilities for the purpose of determining if a violation has occurred. If the Adopter has more than one Adopted
Animal, and if at any time Second Wind Adoption Program determines that proper care is not being provided
to any Adopted Animal, Second Wind Adoption Program may regain possession of all the Adopted Animals in
the possession of the Adopter. The Adopter agrees to pay all transport fees to retake possession of the
animal(s). The Adopter agrees to pay reasonable attorney fees and court costs to Second Wind Adoption
Program in the event that this matter is forwarded to an attorney and/or court for enforcement. The Adopter
must abide by all rules and regulations of the Adoption Program. If the Adopter fails to do so, the horse may
be recovered by the program at any time and without the Adopter present, without a court authority, and
without contacting the Adopter through US mail. Any falsification or misrepresentation is grounds for
recovering the adoption horse and all other horses that the Adopter has adopted from the program. In case of
any disagreement between the Adopter, the previous owner and the adoption program about the adoption
horse, the Adoption Program has final decision on what is best for the adoption horse.

Seriously, there are plenty of reputable rescues out there and several have been listed on this site. With the state of the economy these days, there are a ton of free or low-cost pasture ornaments out there that need homes, and you will end up owning the horse.

Good luck!

[Holly Jeanne]

Hamlinpiper: You might check out this place:
http://www.kyehc.org/adopt.html

It's near Lexington, KY and even has a few mules. :)

[sweetwater]

And remember, if you do decide to adopt from her, it is just helping her continue to do what she has been doing to other's.

You want your horse experience to be a good one, and you and your wife deserve that. If you do follow through with the adoption, I'm sure you will be left with a sour taste in your mouth in the long run.

Good Luck, and please do check out some of the ads in your area, or one of the other good rescues people here have recommended.

[cowgirljenn]

You might try Traveller's Rest Equine Elders Sanctuary. They might be out of your area but could refer you to someone closer if they can't help.

[Alpha_Mare]

Hamlinpiper,

As a fellow WV'ian I can only say to do lots and lots of investigation before you decide to adopt from Second Wind/Crossed Sabers. I personally would not even consider it, no matter what, the sooner that place goes out of business the better but that is just my opinion. I will be more than happy to give you some names of people here in WV that are involved with reputable rescues/organizations.

[Alpha_Mare]

Hamlinpiper,

Here is the link to the other COTH thread on this topic, a lot more information in it.

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=69766

[Hamlinpiper]

Howdy folks,

Well, when Tsula got up that day, all of the material was sitting in front of her - she was disappointed, but not heart broken - she told me it explained some things she was picking up on during the conversation with Celeita. So much for that - ahem.

We have perused every site you have sent us, and you have helped us to make up our minds. When lease when for a few hundred bucks more, you can buy your own horse, mule, goat and pot bellied pig. ( I have NO idea why I want one - but I DO!!!) I thank you profusely for all of your insight and leads.

The stables are now finished, and spiffy. Tsula has purchased corner buckets, mineral blocks and holders, mounted water buckets, hay bags, and we have about 20 ton of last years hay that came with the place...I think some cut/swap deal with the previous owner, but no one has shown up to claim it yet. We're about ready - so will be doing some serious looking soon.

I have to fall to one side or the other on this Celeita thing now, when I had decided to let it drop - because she contacted me. She monitors ALL of the traffic posted herein - if you weren't aware of that you certainly are now. She didn't call anyone a c*** this time but she made it clear that she won't be 'leasing' me any horses. I made the list! I know not if she is 'crazy' as has been related - but she is truly unprofessional. She did not offer any explanation for her statements printed herein, but trashed this entire forum on a whole as being pro slaughter witches. Indeed.

In that I AM the intended recipient of her E Mail, the contents, since mailed to me, become mine - her proviso not withstanding. I can do with it now as I see fit. ( Apparently her knowledge of copyright law is lacking - aren't we fortunate that while an Inspector, enforcement of copyright laws in general and intellectual property rights in particular were my forte?)

My choice is to post my newly acquired property herein...

Gene, I'm sorry we won't be able to adopt any of our horses to you. Very sorry. We've seen what you wrote on the chronicle chat room to all those pro slaughter witches, lying cheating horse traders who we are putting out of business and those ladies who came to us to adopt, searched us out, filled out our application, filled out our contract and paid our fee all of their own choice, we never once forced them to adopt from us and now they are whining about us, our rules, our contract and even our prices. How ridiculous is that? Like we forced them. Honestly I think they should all send their horses back to us so we can find them better homes with more upstanding people who are honest, not underhanded liars, weak whiners who sit in chat rooms instead of having a life.

Regardless we have to have people that adopt from us who believe whole heartedly about our mission and want to work with us 100% forever, who are for the horse 100% and are prepared to follow our contract, owning up to their responsibility, not doing all our paperwork and then bitching about it like we put a gun to anyone's head.... and certainly not talking about us behind our back on some chat room (the enquirer of the internet), that is certainly no way to be in a partnership and certainly not the way to start one. Go to one of those horse traders and let them take your money, lie to you and then disappear when the horse does not work out. Good luck regardless, there is no need to contact us, we will not change our mind. We are very particular about where our horses and donkeys go,

Celeita Kramer


I truly truly TRULY despise the usage of the pompously royal third party by someone not wearing a crown. And then it still rankles. 'Let the little people eat cake', as t'were. Phui.

I wasn't really convinced, and in fact in searching around saw that her prices weren't that far beyond what others charge. What really did it? The fella that she contacted, and later begged to have his comment removed in that she wouldn't come down on him vis a vie his ( her?) horse. As a retired Fed, I have had my fill of tin Hitlers - and feel that I have dodged a bullet. Thank you all.

When we finally find the fuglies we're looking for, I'm going to be hitting you folks up for vet referrals, farrier referrals, etc. We are completely new to this area, and although I have owned several one horse power four footed all terrain vehicles before, know no one around with the proper information...except you. I am truly glad you're here.

Thanks again,
Gene

Oh .. and Celeita? I will be honoring your request for no further contact. Let's just make sure that goes both ways, ok hun? Thaks ever so!

[Policy of Truth]

That last post made my evening! :lol:

Gene, it sounds like you are creating a wonderful place for some fortunate beasties. I'm nearly 100% positive that you will not have to pay a dime for any horses/donkeys in need if you look hard enough. So many people are giving wonderful horses away because the economy is forcing them to downsize. If you aren't in too much of a hurry, I cannot imagine that you will have to pay more than just transport. :yes:

I have actually spoken to her highness on the phone several years ago. Let's just say one phone call was enough for me to avoid that woman like the plague - and the conversation was pleasant! :eek: Things just didn't add up and she pulled a stunt on a very good friend and I saw the e-mail correspondence - it was frightening. Her control issues are beyond reasonable.
:)

[arabhorse2]

Hamlinpiper, I think I love you. :D

In a hands-off, I realize it'll forever be unrequited kind of way, but nevertheless love. ;)

Thank you for sharing your property with us. Although it does look like Celeita has finally figured out how to use spell check, unless you couldn't take all her misspellings and improper grammar and cleaned it up yourself.

You and your wife sound like great people. I'm glad you dodged the train to Crazy Town, and know you'll find the right person with the right horses eventually. :yes: