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Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:54 AM
at Flynge. Painted Black did the dirty deed. Isn't he the one that bucked her off a few years back and broke her leg? Sounds like he may be suited for the airs above ground!

Anyway, you'd think she'd learn not to take these horses into the awards ceremonies after Salinero bolted with her. I know that it is not uncommon for winners not to ride their horses in to the awards...

HXF
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:06 AM
No, it wasn't Painted Black.

I certainly hope she is OK.

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:10 AM
Oh, yes, she's okay. Sorry for not mentioning that. I wouldn't have posted such flippant remarks if she had been injured. Here's the article

http://www.dressagedaily.com/2007/dd_200710/dd_20071003.html

Hazelnut
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:11 AM
http://www.dressagedaily.com/

Hope she is OK.

Incredible, She just keeps bringing on fantastic horses and winning...

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:13 AM
No, it wasn't Painted Black.

I certainly hope she is OK.

From the article:
The current Kur World Champion won the Grand Prix with Painted Black (by Gribaldi) on a score of 75,000% but was bucked off her horse during the prize giving ceremony and injured her leg.

It reads like Painted Black bucked her off, but it could be interpreted to read she won with Painted Black but a different horse bucked her off.

I hope she recovers quickly and with no permanent damage.

HXF
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:36 AM
No, it wasn't Painted Black that broke her leg.

snoopy
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:40 AM
This situation hardly surprises me....she has stated on many occasions that she uses draw reins whilst out hacking...for extra contol,
most of her horses...not just the "famous" ones do not stand still at halt either schooling or in the ring competeing.
The fact is, for me anyway, is that these horses are so restricted for most of the time she is on their backs....perhaps they are not the "happy athletes" she claims them to be. Yes there are some who do have problems in prize giving situations but you hear time and time again of her horses running away with people in the forest, the indoor, the outdoor, the competition arena. For such well trained and happy horses...they certainly seem to have it in for her at every opportunity that arrises.
Now I am not happy this has happened to her...or anyone for that matter....nobody likes to see someone injured. She is alright anyway as she competed the next day.

Gaia
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:54 AM
An eye-witness report at TidningenRidsport forum:

"Maja (1/10 17:07)
Hästen bockade inte alls, jag var där och tittade och satt på nedersta raderna precis framför. Den blev stressad och reste sig rakt upp, Anky tappade balansen och då blev hästen rädd för henne och kastade sig åt sidan samtidigt. Då trillade hon av. "

Translation, almost word by word:

Maja (1/10 17:07)
The horse did not buck at all, I was there and sat at the lowest row just in front. It was stressed and rose straight up, Anky lost her balance and then the horse was frightened of her and threw himself to the side at the same time. Then she fell off.
****
And AvG was hurt - and abstained from the afternoon ride in the kur with Painted Black.

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:13 AM
No, it wasn't Painted Black that broke her leg.

Oh! So sorry! That'll teach me to put my glasses on before I start reading this forum! :)

Pony Fixer
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:16 AM
Why is it that we assume it is her training methods that have her being bucked off, run away with, etc.

I have heard that she and Sjef like "hot" horses for training (rather than the push type), so could we just consider for ONE MOMENT that maybe it's because her horses are a tad difficult that she has the occasional incident and not because she is some evil horse torturer?

slc2
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:24 AM
the horses aren't just 'difficult' ones. they are horses other people give up on. they are horses other people can't even ride. junior she considered very 'quiet', even though others considered him not to be. she started out winning the dutch jr national champs on Prisco, an extremely hot, unpredictable thoroughbred.

the comments here disgust me. if you people really were interested in improving horse training, you would not be gloating when someone gets bucked off. you aren't interested in horse training at all, but in gossip and feeling 'holier than thou' and in finding targets to pick on.

if you all really were so interested in getting rid of rollkur, you would have gotten rid of it, instead of waiting for some national humane agency to 'look into it', and rejoicing when someone else actually does some work on the issue.

Gaia
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:25 AM
I guess that you can´t have one without the other... (Horse and carriage, love and marriage)
- That training method craves a hot horse!!! Any other horse would just stop from the pressure in it´s mouth.

But it makes good propaganda to say that you "prefer hot horses"...



Why is it that we assume it is her training methods that have her being bucked off, run away with, etc.

I have heard that she and Sjef like "hot" horses for training (rather than the push type), so could we just consider for ONE MOMENT that maybe it's because her horses are a tad difficult that she has the occasional incident and not because she is some evil horse torturer?

slc2
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:31 AM
there IS no excessive pressure on the mouth, you're wrong. the pressure is the same amount as with the horse's head up. just because you can't get your horse on the bit, doesn't mean someone else is exerting any unusual pressure on a horse to perform rollkur. it's just shaped like any other posture or manouvre horses are asked for, the horse gives the correct response, reward, ask for a little more next time. it's no more pressure than you riding, and turning or doing anything that you normally do.

NO, i'm not saying that makes it right. but you people seem to have to demonize something and everyone associated with it, instead of simply saying, 'it's not for me', or 'it's a method we should control through our organization', and the reason you CAN'T get the organization to ban it or to control it, is because you're all so completely ineffective, and the reason you're all so completely ineffective is that you are in this to gossip, to pick on individuals, and to act 'holier than thou', NOT to change anything.

beeblebrox
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:35 AM
"Snoopy
she has stated on many occasions that she uses draw reins whilst out hacking...for extra contol, (do you mean CONTROL?)
most of her horses...not just the "famous" ones do not stand still at halt either schooling or in the ring competeing. (do you mean competing)
The fact is, for me anyway, is that these horses are so restricted for most of the time she is on their backs.... perhaps they are not the "happy athletes" she claims them to be. "

Are you serious? The awards can be the most dangerous place weather your a dressage rider or jump rider. You have a excited crowd , excited horses, horses cantering with coolers and ribbons not to mention picture takers, sometimes music etc etc etc. It sounds as if you have issues that reach far beyond this woman! How many hot horses do you ride in award ceremonies?

Jesus you can see riders being bucked off in plain warm up rings and awards, most of the time the horses are just being horses and there is not some weird conspiracy on the horses part to get back for the draw reins at home or other nefarious method just a horse doing what they do and it not some film at 11 news worthy thing nor the are most horses crying out to be saved from whatever some of you want to make it!

onetempies
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:41 AM
Owning a hot and sensitive (overly sensitive) mare, I can relate to the bolting or spooking at a drop of a hat. It gives you a whole new perspective on riding! A horse with these issues, you just can NOT automatically point fingers at the training methods.

Gaia
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:45 AM
In what dreamworld are you living???

- Do try the bits on your own body - arm or leg - it´s easy.




there IS no excessive pressure on the mouth, you're wrong. the pressure is the same amount as with the horse's head up. just because you can't get your horse on the bit, doesn't mean someone else is exerting any unusual pressure on a horse to perform rollkur. it's just shaped like any other posture or manouvre horses are asked for, the horse gives the correct response, reward, ask for a little more next time. it's no more pressure than you riding, and turning or doing anything that you normally do.

NO, i'm not saying that makes it right. but you people seem to have to demonize something and everyone associated with it, instead of simply saying, 'it's not for me', or 'it's a method we should control through our organization', and the reason you CAN'T get the organization to ban it or to control it, is because you're all so completely ineffective, and the reason you're all so completely ineffective is that you are in this to gossip, to pick on individuals, and to act 'holier than thou', NOT to change anything.

monstrpony
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:52 AM
But there ARE things that can be done to help horses deal with these exciting situations. Those things are not being done by many dressage riders, becuse these situations aren't the be-all and end-all of their passion, only a necessary by-product of it (i.e., awards ceremonies).

I call it a hole in their horsemanship (which has nothing to do with rollkur or not), but that's just MHO.

CatOnLap
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:24 AM
Part of the problem is the natural human tendency to want to expose fraud and fakery and hypocrisy. Like when some evangelist gets caught with his pants down in a motel room with a sex trade worker. Things like this and CVB broohaha really make you question your faith or adherence to a belief system when it appears obvious those at the top are not showing the same values.
"Happy horses"
"Harmony between horse and rider"
"Freedom of movement and regularity of gaits"
"Submission to the bit and rider"
However, in this instance, it really could have happened to anyone. The most serious injuries in equine sport are happening to those at the top of their game. They take more risks, they ride more powerful animals and they spend more time in the saddle than the rest of us.
But what do I know? I have a cat on my lap.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:29 AM
Has anyone here ever been chucked off of a horse or what?

Poor Anky I know when she fell she probably thought "Oh great the press will have a field day with this one". Not fair at all! Anyway she does ride more difficult horses and still does awesome. See my signature to see how I really feel about bashing upper level riders.

Hoofprince in Mud
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:46 AM
Are you serious? The awards can be the most dangerous place weather your a dressage rider or jump rider.


Do you mean whether or are you referring to climatic conditions during award ceremonies?

And it is "you're" if it is a contraction for "you are"

Dressage-ryder
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:57 AM
Why is this something anyone wants to laugh or poke fun at or use against AVG or anyone else for that matter? Geez... People should spend more time riding and understanding horses, this happens in the horse world to EVERYONE!!!!!

Janeway
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:59 AM
I have a video all about John Whitaker's great showjumper Milton, and in it he talks about how the Awards Ceremony brought out the worst in Milton, who was otherwise a well behaved horse. John couldn't take him to the awards without draw reins, and even then Milton had a habit of doing "airs above the ground" - unfortunately for John, the crowd loved seeing Milton acting up! :winkgrin:

So whether ( ;) ) or not I agree with AVG's horses being happy or unhappy, as others have said the awards ceremony is fair game for any equine misbehaviour!

Mozart
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:03 PM
Regardless of the why's and wherefore's, I am just really surprised she fell off based on the description. When I have seen her ride live she looks like you could pick the horse up, turn it upside down and shake it and she would still not fall off. He must have really caught her at an unusual off balance moment.

akor
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:32 PM
I suspect that a horse that tosses Anky off would pitch me into the stands...

I'm not an Anky fan, never really was, and the World Cup in Vegas the one year sealed it.

However, I do feel some akin to her as I used to prefer very hot horses, before a non-horse related injury, and yes, you run higher risks with them, whether they are happy or not. Happy hot horses do all sorts of things, big move things, sometimes because they are happy ;) Also, some horses can bolt/spin etc "faster" and "sneakier" than others, I prefer the ones where you get a bit of warning, if it's out of the blue, I've been unseated back when I had a seat that I might compare to top riders...

I just think that when those hot horses don't halt or kick out severly during dressage tests that they should be scored less then 8s...that's my beef with the Anky saga. She is typically scored to get the benefit of the "flash" that comes from riding great snorty beats that look like they will leap out of their skin but isn't "punished" when those hot horses don't perform movements or act out. She still gets an 8 or 9.

Sucks to get hurt at that level, I give her credit for competing the next day. Ouch ouch is all I can think. I hope it was just temporary.

Now, she might be reaping what she sows (working with such hot horses) in the awards.

I had a jumper once that you could have aced to near death and you STILL wouldn't have gotten the person that hangs ribbons on for victory gallops NEAR him.

Coreene
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:54 PM
Get a life.

Maria
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:08 PM
Heaven forbid that a horse ever have a horse moment.

Those of you who think you can control another living breathing being 100% of the time need to just look at this bb to figure out...that ain't gonna happen.

Dixon
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:09 PM
I'm surprised such mishaps don't occur more often across the high-level disciplines, including jumpers as well as dressage. These are super-tuned horses, trained to perform super moves. I didn't see the fall, but I wonder if the horse was showing off a move that we'd applaud had it been a Royal Lipizzaner performance.

egontoast
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:10 PM
Coreene, don't you know that all the best dressage trainers in the world are right here on the CoTH?:)

JSwan
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:11 PM
at Flynge. Painted Black did the dirty deed. Isn't he the one that bucked her off a few years back and broke her leg? Sounds like he may be suited for the airs above ground!
.


Well that's just plain embarrassing. I hate it when horses do things like that in front of everyone.

(I don't care for the lady - but I swear horses pick the most inconvenient moments to act silly, don't they.)

Sandra6500
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:12 PM
Gosh I hope you all never have to get on a horse that has an off moment.

Painted Black has been to many award ceremonies. $hit happens. Ever had a horse go by something a hundred times and on the 101th time spook and leap sideways?

My little mare is super super reliable. Not scared of anything, never really spooks. Doesn't do anything really "bad". A few weeks ago I rode her outside. Out of no where she leapt into the air sort of twisted herself around and bucked. I hit the ground. Hasn't done anything since. Who know where her little wee brain was at the time but it happens.

Its real live horses - not the carousel type that goes round and round without fail.

Coreene
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:15 PM
Coreene, don't you know that all the best dressage trainers in the world are right here on the CoTH?:)
Amen. With horses that obviously never spook, shy, buck or have a Horsey Moment.

If the rider was from any other country, there would be Oh How Sad Let's Jingle effing violins playing. Again, people, get a life.

twnkltoz
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:17 PM
Why is it that we assume it is her training methods that have her being bucked off, run away with, etc.

I have heard that she and Sjef like "hot" horses for training (rather than the push type), so could we just consider for ONE MOMENT that maybe it's because her horses are a tad difficult that she has the occasional incident and not because she is some evil horse torturer?

THANK YOU. My horse has bucked me off. Does that mean I'm torturing her??

I've seen western pleasure horses longed and ridden in draw reins with their chins held to their chest. Basically the same concept...yet no one goes around crying about that, and these horses don't spend every waking moment trying to get back at their trainer.

News flash: some horses are hot. Hot horses can be difficult.

Thomas_1
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:17 PM
Well it might just be that the horses are taking the opportunity whilst they're not all trussed up and expressing their opinions.:yes:

gr8fulrider
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:17 PM
Kennedy, whom Robert Dover rode in 2004 and who went to the Olympics with another rider in 2000, freaks out in awards ceremonies. That's a VERY experienced horse (a gelding no less) with a very experienced rider. When I watched him at the World Cup in Los Vegas in 2005, the announcer asked everyone to hold their applause until after his final halt and salute so that Kennedy wouldn't shoot RD into the stands. And RD rode Rainier in the awards ceremony. I have never read anything here criticizing Kennedy's training.

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:32 PM
I started this thread because I was bored today, and thought that it would be entaining to watch everyone go nuts. I was right. The only thing that is missing are the helmet nazis, and I suspect that they are not far behind. :uhoh:

Personally, I AM an Anky fan. I attended a clinic with her and found her to be pleasant, respectful, and, believe it or not, humble. She clearly loves her horses.

She is a fabulous rider who works very hard at it. She is very successful and naturally has to put up with a lot of jealousy. She just can't win. If her horse behaves perfectly, it is "learned helplessness." :eek: If he acts up, he is anthropomorphically engaging in some act of revenge. :rolleyes:

But you know what? She puts her breeches on one leg at a time like everyone else. And there ain't a cowboy who can't be throwed. :winkgrin:

Rusty Stirrup
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:39 PM
Manure happens.

slc2
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:57 PM
sorry, eclectic, but i got no respect for that explanation.

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:00 PM
sorry, eclectic, but i got no respect for that explanation.

Huh? :confused: What's that supposed to mean?

slc2
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:06 PM
it means i got no respect for this statement:

I was bored today, and thought that it would be entaining to watch everyone go nuts.


add please, 'it would be entertaining to watch everyone get another opportunity to act clever and holier than thou, and pick on someone who isn't here to defend themselves'

your dogs bark loud thru a big fence.

egontoast
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:16 PM
She puts her breeches on one leg at a time like everyone else.

That's not what I heard.

( involves a trampoline and a jolly jumper).

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:17 PM
it means i got no respect for this statement:

I was bored today, and thought that it would be entaining to watch everyone go nuts.


add please, 'it would be entertaining to watch everyone get another opportunity to act clever and holier than thou, and pick on someone who isn't here to defend themselves'

your dogs bark loud thru a big fence.

I think that you mean that you had no respect for my action of posting something that I knew would be controversial. Not the statement itself, correct?

Yah, well everyone gets bored now and again. And something posted on Dressage Daily is there because it is newsworthy. It is not rumor or gossip, and it is certainly not going to harm AVG's reputation. She is a public figure. My guess is that she will laugh at it herself.

People are going to be the way that they are. Honest, I didn't make them do it. If I didn't draw people's attention to the Dressage Daily article, someone else would have. By the way, you will notice that I didn't critcize AVG, other than to suggest that she stay away from those dangerous award ceremonies.

If you don't like a thread, don't read it. Free country.

Adamantane
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:27 PM
We all at times have a little bit of troll in us.;)

twnkltoz
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:29 PM
Just because it's in the news, doesn't make it newsworthy. It just means that people love to see stuff about famous people. "Britney Spears picked her nose! OMG!"

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:37 PM
Just because it's in the news, doesn't make it newsworthy. It just means that people love to see stuff about famous people. "Britney Spears picked her nose! OMG!"

That's true if you are talking about what you or someone else may think is important news. I meant "newsworthy" in the legal sense of the word. The things that purely private people do are not newsworthy, and for that reason those people are not "fair game." But when people put themselves out there as public figures, it is reasonable to expect that whatever they do will hit the news and that people will comment on it. That's the price of fame.

slc2
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:39 PM
i got no problem with being controversial, don't give me that. this is just more gossip and bs, not any substantive discussion.

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:48 PM
i got no problem with being controversial, don't give me that. this is just more gossip and bs, not any substantive discussion.

That's your opinion and mine differs.

There are posters on this board who think that a really good rider would never fall off! :no: I hear that implied quite frequently.

We also heard implied on this thread that horses can be "bombproofed" and if they were properly trained this wouldn't happen. :lol:

We also heard that top dressage horses, particularly stallions, can be pumped up, spirited, stong and athletic. This may be a revelation to the many people I have met who are looking for a top notch FEI horse that is "bombproof" and suitable for a timid rider. ;)

There are many people who think that riders choose dressage because they are afraid to jump or do anything thrilling. :yes:

So an article that states fact (not gossip) that shows that all of these beliefs are not necessarily correct is, in my opinion, an eye opener for many people, and, hence. is substantive.

slc2
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:51 PM
clever, but if that was the intent, to discuss some actual issues, rather than persons, it didn't have to have anyone's name attached to it.:cool:

twnkltoz
Oct. 3, 2007, 03:02 PM
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
gos·sip /ˈgɒsəp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gos-uhp] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -siped or -sipped, -sip·ing or -sip·ping.
–noun 1. idle talk or rumor, esp. about the personal or private affairs of others: the endless gossip about Hollywood stars.
2. light, familiar talk or writing.
3. Also, gos·sip·er, gos·sip·per. a person given to tattling or idle talk.
4. Chiefly British Dialect. a godparent.
5. Archaic. a friend, esp. a woman.
–verb (used without object) 6. to talk idly, esp. about the affairs of others; go about tattling.
–verb (used with object) 7. Chiefly British Dialect. to stand godparent to.
8. Archaic. to repeat like a gossip.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: bef. 1050; ME gossib, godsib(be), OE godsibb, orig. godparent, equiv. to god God + sibb related; see sib1]

—Related forms
gos·sip·ing·ly, adverb


—Synonyms 1. small talk, hearsay, palaver, chitchat. Gossip, scandal apply to idle talk and newsmongering about the affairs of others. Gossip is light chat or talk: to trade gossip about the neighbors. Scandal is rumor or general talk that is damaging to reputation; it is usually more or less malicious: The town never lived down the election scandal. 3. chatterer, talker, gabbler, rumormonger. 6. chatter, prattle, prate, palaver.

2ndyrgal
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:22 PM
twkltoz, from your last post, you have way too much time on your hands. SLC is right, enough bs, so Anky took a tumble, big whoop, she rides stuff every day that would bounce most of the folks on here off on the first three trot strides they tried to sit. I don't care for Rolkur, but even if you don't agree with the premise, not everyone is skilled enough to get a horse to work like that. I don't care how strong you are or what kind of bit or device your ride with, you can't force a horse to do that. Sorry, you just can't. And if a horse acts up at an awards ceremony, well, is it any different than the hunter that goes in a tight martigale and gets in the hack and picks that day to put his head up as far as he can get it? Did he "have it in for you that day" or did some little kid with a giant stuffed rabbit spook him from the rail on your way in? Get real, way too much stuff going on in the world to worry about another awards cereomony tumble. You would think she'd get a bit tired of it though.

twnkltoz
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:42 PM
It probably took less time for me to look up the definition of "gossip" on dictionary.com and copy and paste into a post than it took for you to write out your post. What does that say about how much time YOU have on YOUR hands?

Thomas_1
Oct. 4, 2007, 06:29 AM
Yah, well everyone gets bored now and again. I'm delighted you're so easily pleased


And something posted on Dressage Daily is there because it is newsworthy. yeh right!? You really believe that???


It is not rumor or gossip, and it is certainly not going to harm AVG's reputation. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. Her reputation is based on the opinion of others and I don't see how you can influence or alter the perception of how others see her.

Clearly though you afforded folks the opportunity to read what she did - just in case they happened to miss this HUGE global earth shattering "news" item :winkgrin: and also to express their opinion.


She is a public figure. My guess is that she will laugh at it herself. :lol: And in that case, she'll no doubt be in good company.


By the way, you will notice that I didn't critcize AVG, other than to suggest that she stay away from those dangerous award ceremonies Well no I never noticed but then again IMO, that's as interesting as raisins in turkey stuffing!


If you don't like a thread, don't read it. Free country Erm.......... How does that work????? Don't you have to read it to decide you don't like it?? :yes:

In the same way I had to see AVG riding to decide I didn't like it and I had to see her training and also photos and videos and including the use of rolkur and her feeble explanation/excuse, to decide I didn't like her methods.

Lgd1
Oct. 4, 2007, 10:41 AM
She got launched in the prize-giving -- nothing to do with the training, just one of those horse things

Heck, my 7/8 TB mare is the sanest animal in the ring, hacks like an angel, will nanny the most nervous rider around.... and woe betide you if you're asleep when they start clapping :rolleyes: I've come fairly close to the dirt a few times and I know she is going to start the shenanigans :lol: And definitely nothing to do with being ridden as she flipped exactly the same in hand when her filly foal took reserve champion at the KWPN keuring. My poor friend had a heck of a job holding onto her. The filly just looked at her Mom in amazement and kinda went :sigh: 'Mothers :rolleyes: '

TwoArabs
Oct. 4, 2007, 09:16 PM
An aquaintance who is currently riding at PSG told me that to get to the higher levels you must have some heat in the horse. I haven't a clue if that is correct, just passing it along.

TKR
Oct. 4, 2007, 11:41 PM
Wow! This thread certainly gets a sniping award! One thing you can say for sure about Anky -- she inspires either black or white (so to speak) opinions - certainly no grey areas. You either like her/methods or you don't. Of course, it's hard to argue with success, although I'm not a fan of rollkur or much of any device stuff. I'm not sure that had anything to do with an excited horse in front of an excited crowd. Hope she is ok and certainly sorry it happened. As far as the sniping -- whatever flaps your skirts, LOL!
PennyG

Cheerful1
Oct. 5, 2007, 12:46 AM
Gaia wrote:

"Translation, almost word by word:

Maja (1/10 17:07)
The horse did not buck at all, I was there and sat at the lowest row just in front. It was stressed and rose straight up, Anky lost her balance and then the horse was frightened of her and threw himself to the side at the same time. Then she fell off.
****
And AvG was hurt - and abstained from the afternoon ride in the kur with Painted Black"

This eyewitness account indicates to me that her horses likely do express their negative opinions of their rider whenever they are not under her tight control. It indicates an unusual amount of fear of the rider, if this translates accurately.

I haven't paid much attention to any debates on this rider's methods either. I think that's really strange though, that her horse threw himself to the side because he was frightened of her having lost her balance. Sounds insane to me. I've seen horses terrified of their rider, and this horse certainly sounds like one of them. And if it's true, there's something very wrong with that rider and her methods.

Shiaway
Oct. 5, 2007, 02:06 AM
I feel a lot better knowing that I'm not the only dumbass who falls off her horse sometimes!

DownYonder
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:00 AM
I wonder if she lost her balance BACKWARDS when he rose straight up and he threw himself sideways to avoid being pulled over. Maybe he has a strong enough sense of self preservation to realize that going over backwards might not be a very good idea.

slc2
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:42 AM
It was stressed and rose straight up, Anky lost her balance and then the horse was frightened of her and threw himself to the side

What a description. REALLY unbiased.

asb_own_me
Oct. 5, 2007, 10:26 AM
If the rider was from any other country, there would be Oh How Sad Let's Jingle effing violins playing. Again, people, get a life.

:lol::lol::lol:
So true.

My mare freaks out sometimes during awards ceremonies, or during her victory pass. Now I finally know why.....she harbors resentment and fear towards me and wants to retaliate :eek: Duh.

akor
Oct. 5, 2007, 10:43 AM
Re the comment that it takes "heat" to get to GP. In that, you need a "hot" horse.

Not in my limited experience. And, from years ago, decades, actually (OK, now I'm depressed) Controlled high energy is how I like to think of it.

Of course, I mainly just "rode" FEI level horses in hack mode, they varied from cool as a cucumber, almost dead, actually most of the time to freakazoids. The freakazoids didn't necessarily place any better. This was years ago though. Now, when in GP "mode" yes, you need heat. Lots of it, But I think nealy all horses have that excited, high energy ability, you just have to activiate it under saddle and control it.

I think "heat" is winning more now, but it isn't necessarily needed.

I do have my own theory that the more talented horses have a few screws loose, and I think humans are a bit that way too.

twnkltoz
Oct. 5, 2007, 10:50 AM
Given that none of us were there, how can we make a judgement as to whether she handled it properly? Maybe it happened so fast that she lost her balance too quickly to do something like pull him around.

As for the horse being frightened of her, it's very reasonable that he could be startled by her weight being in the wrong place. My mare gets uneasy if I suddenly start riding differently (i.e., trying full-seats for the first time), or when a new rider gets on her.

magnum
Oct. 5, 2007, 10:56 AM
Hey, SLC and others, thank you for righting this ship.

Glad to hear Anky wasn't hurt, and that she continued on with her riding. Her work is often an inspiration ...

For the record, I am NOT pro-rollkur .. having that opinion, I will limit it to ACTUAL ROLLKUR-related THREADs,


Magnum

Cielo Azure
Oct. 5, 2007, 11:00 AM
I can't say that I have been in the awards ceremonies at any dressage show (grin). But I have been at many, many awards ceremonies in other disciplines. I have one particular mare that I use to train beginners to drive at home and I use for trail riding is sweet, and calm and amazingly sensible but get her into a competitive situation, with a large audience (the size of the audience makes a huge difference) and a light bulb comes on!

She likes that victory lap more than anything else in the whole world. As each horse gets called out, she begins to dance and prance and she just builds excitement. SHE LOVES being the winner, cheering makes her wild and it is a pain in the butt. When she does do a victory lap, she just glows -it is so clear that she knows she has done well. At the National Percheron show (audience of 5,000 to 10,000 people), she won a first and a second (not to brag) and she was insufferable in all her classes as other horses received their ribbons! She also gets dissed and will prance out of the ring, if she doesn't get to do a lap, cause she didn't win. Same mare is a saint at home, on the trail or out driving on roads. Go figure.

This type of behavior in the line-up or at awards seems pretty common. It is exciting and stressful for these guys and they act out, have melt downs and do "things" that can totally shock you. My question is: how to train out these types of unexpected behaviors (at awards/line-up) out of a horse, that never does them at any other time? As in my mare's case, it only crops up in the "winner's circle," what techniques can be successfully used to modify this behavior? Or, is it even worth it (given all the other things we are busy training her for -such as dressage) for the three or four times a year, we find ourselves having to deal with it? Does one even want to train it out, as the crowd loves it and they love it, as long as the animal is being safe? What do you all do to keep your less than calm horses behaving well at award's ceremonies or at show award line-ups? Lets say when a huge crowd is roaring and clapping and the annoucer's voice is booming from the stereo system, all the other horses are leaving the coloseum one by one (the "herd" is leaving component), there is a tractor waiting at the entrance to even the ring and your horse is a little (or big) firecracker underneath you? Techniques, training, what works?

WildBlue
Oct. 5, 2007, 11:47 AM
I wonder why she didn't pull the horse's head around to the side and kick his hindquarters over when he started getting light on the front end. It's physically impossible to rear when the nose is to the knee and the hind legs are crossed. This is the 2nd time now on 2 different horses that she's not been reactive enough to stop the accident before it happened. Too bad. She's likely to get seriously injured or killed if she doesn't learn how to utilize the hindquarters to her advantage on those hot and unpredictable horses she rides. I believe that's one of the things you learn in pony club.

Flame away. :lol:


No, no, that's brilliant and could save many people from dangerous situations.

Please post a video of yourself correctly demonstrating this techinique on a similar horse.

egontoast
Oct. 5, 2007, 12:14 PM
I wonder why she didn't pull the horse's head around to the side and kick his hindquarters over when he started getting light on the front end. It's physically impossible to rear when the nose is to the knee and the hind legs are crossed. This is the 2nd time now on 2 different horses that she's not been reactive enough to stop the accident before it happened. Too bad. She's likely to get seriously injured or killed if she doesn't learn how to utilize the hindquarters to her advantage on those hot and unpredictable horses she rides. I believe that's one of the things you learn in pony club.



I don't believe it is flaming to reply after reading a post where someone is obviously crowing about another person having a horse accident. You display an arrogance (or maybe it's just ignorance) that will likely get you in trouble some day with a horse. If horses haven't yet made you humble enough to realize that anyone, no matter how experienced or skilled, can be injured by a horse, then you are pathetic excuse for a horsewoman.

Flame away yourself.

monstrpony
Oct. 5, 2007, 12:30 PM
We all at times have a little bit of troll in us.;)


I can think of a couple of dozen of us who could adopt this as our sig line!

BarbB
Oct. 5, 2007, 12:32 PM
She's likely to get seriously injured or killed if she doesn't learn how to utilize the hindquarters to her advantage on those hot and unpredictable horses she rides.

Maybe you could offer to help her out.

AnotherRound
Oct. 5, 2007, 12:35 PM
I wonder why she didn't pull the horse's head around to the side and kick his hindquarters over when he started getting light on the front end. It's physically impossible to rear when the nose is to the knee and the hind legs are crossed. This is the 2nd time now on 2 different horses that she's not been reactive enough to stop the accident before it happened. Too bad. She's likely to get seriously injured or killed if she doesn't learn how to utilize the hindquarters to her advantage on those hot and unpredictable horses she rides. I believe that's one of the things you learn in pony club.


Dang, I don't know diddly about dressage, but I can say one thing, there are few horses can get me off of them, that's how good I am at handling a screwy maneuver by one of them, and boy a big un ducked his head and threw back on me whilst mounting the other day and I landed hard in the dirt, and my trainer who was holding him got banged away and pin-balled off the fence. I am sure Anky is a hundred thousand times better screw-ball-stayer-on-er Than I will ever be in my entire life, and it just goes to show you, sometimes they just surprise the bjeezus out of us. You don't think she was unguarded during the awards? I'll bet she was, and didn't see it coming.

So what.

Adamantane
Oct. 5, 2007, 12:37 PM
Maybe you could offer to help her out.

Good one, no offense to A2. Actually did laugh out.:D

FancyFree
Oct. 5, 2007, 12:46 PM
Dang, I don't know diddly about dressage, but I can say one thing, there are few horses can get me off of them, that's how good I am at handling a screwy maneuver by one of them, and boy a big un ducked his head and threw back on me whilst mounting the other day and I landed hard in the dirt, and my trainer who was holding him got banged away and pin-balled off the fence. I am sure Anky is a hundred thousand times better screw-ball-stayer-on-er Than I will ever be in my entire life, and it just goes to show you, sometimes they just surprise the bjeezus out of us. You don't think she was unguarded during the awards? I'll bet she was, and didn't see it coming.

So what.

Exactly! I'm sure she was on guard. Horses, no matter what level of training they have, can be unpredictable. Riders, no matter how good, can fall off. It probably was one of those things. I am an Anky fan. She's a fabulous rider. But as someone up thread posted so eloquently "Manure happens."

Coreene
Oct. 5, 2007, 12:51 PM
Another thread that helps add to my "ignore" list.

Sithly
Oct. 5, 2007, 02:05 PM
I think that's really strange though, that her horse threw himself to the side because he was frightened of her having lost her balance. Sounds insane to me. I've seen horses terrified of their rider, and this horse certainly sounds like one of them. And if it's true, there's something very wrong with that rider and her methods.

Oh, please. My horse, who comes to me at a gallop when I call him and doesn't know the meaning of the word "abuse," once did the same thing. I was riding around bareback (with Cowboy Magic in his mane, dumb me) and slipped to the side. He was so startled to see me in a place where I clearly didn't belong that he spooked and jumped about ten feet sideways, which dumped me well and good. Then he spooked and snorted at me while I was lying in the dirt, lol. As soon as I stood up, he was like, "Oh, it's you," and relaxed instantly.

FancyFree
Oct. 5, 2007, 02:09 PM
Oh, please. My horse, who comes to me at a gallop when I call him and doesn't know the meaning of the word "abuse," once did the same thing. I was riding around bareback (with Cowboy Magic in his mane, dumb me) and slipped to the side. He was so startled to see me in a place where I clearly didn't belong that he spooked and jumped about ten feet sideways, which dumped me well and good. Then he spooked and snorted at me while I was lying in the dirt, lol. As soon as I stood up, he was like, "Oh, it's you," and relaxed instantly.

I've had that happen too. My horse spooked at a dog hurling himself at a chainlink fence. She went left, I went right. The funny part was when I was lying in the dirt, she stood over me looking like "Silly human what are you doing down there?"

Not malicious at all. It just happened.

fiona
Oct. 5, 2007, 02:11 PM
....... the nose is to the knee and the hind legs are crossed.

So now you want her to pull on the reins and do that?
Poor woman must have fallen off because she was dizzy from all the conflicting advice she keeps getting.

Personally, i hope she's ok.

ideering
Oct. 5, 2007, 02:37 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

I have nothing of substance to contribute to this thread, but I am bored and am reading here and thinking this is one of the funniest threads I've seen in a long time. :yes:

Eclectic Horseman
Oct. 5, 2007, 02:44 PM
People really are all over the map in their opinions, aren't they? But you can really tell the horsemen from the wannabes.

Some of us have learned exactly why they give out them big shiny buckles. :winkgrin: :lol::lol::lol:

fiona
Oct. 5, 2007, 03:59 PM
Twice I've fallen off of her when she whipped a 180 and I was exhausted after riding for 7 hours. Seven hours in the saddle has a way of making muscles tired.


Am i getting you correctly? You ride a 4 year old horse for 7 hours?!!!!!
And you are critical of Anky?
Frankly, you've got a nerve.

ideering
Oct. 5, 2007, 04:10 PM
I think she's a distance rider, so that would be normal.

loshad
Oct. 5, 2007, 04:17 PM
Am i getting you correctly? You ride a 4 year old horse for 7 hours?!!!!!
And you are critical of Anky?
Frankly, you've got a nerve.

Isn't that also the poster who rode her horse with ringbone in an endurance ride to the point that the poor animal was flailing around with its hindquarters due to exhaustion? I guess that would be one way to disengage them.

I, myself, would not presume to give AVG advice on how to ride her horses.

class
Oct. 5, 2007, 04:19 PM
I think she's a distance rider, so that would be normal.

not if you know anything about distance riding.

fiona
Oct. 5, 2007, 04:24 PM
OMG! that's even worse!
Where was the photographer that day???
This can't be true, it must be a misunderstanding, no one would do that surely?

egontoast
Oct. 5, 2007, 04:40 PM
A 2 and all previous usernames= delusions of grandeur

Sannois
Oct. 5, 2007, 04:46 PM
About a rider getting bucked off at an awards ceremony become 5 pages long?? For crying out loud, Riders in all disciplines and all levels have gotten tossed at one time or another. Just the nature of the game. High charged atmosphere, fit horses, adrenaline coursing through rider transmitted to horse, = Yahooo on the horses part. No ones fault, Just happens. Glad she was not hurt! :eek:

DownYonder
Oct. 5, 2007, 04:54 PM
I've had a nasty accident that left me in bad shape for over a year. I don't wish that on ANYONE because it's the worst feeling in the world. Hearing your neck crunch and the world going black. I hope to god that no one has to experience that. I gave up riding for 2 years.

If you're so good, how come you had a nasty accident?

loshad
Oct. 5, 2007, 04:56 PM
Found it:


We'd trot until I could feel her flailing her fronts out to the side, meaning she was too tired to trot square. Then we'd walk for half a mile and rest. We'd canter until I felt her hind end start to sway, and then we'd rest at the trot for a while.

Klassy.

egontoast
Oct. 5, 2007, 05:08 PM
Was that the Qh with ringbone or the young rescued arabian. I guess it's Ok to ask this about someone who can post such offensive things about a rider who was injured while thrown from her very athletic horse in a highly charged awards ceremony.

TropicalStorm
Oct. 5, 2007, 05:18 PM
About a rider getting bucked off at an awards ceremony become 5 pages long?? For crying out loud, Riders in all disciplines and all levels have gotten tossed at one time or another. Just the nature of the game. High charged atmosphere, fit horses, adrenaline coursing through rider transmitted to horse, = Yahooo on the horses part. No ones fault, Just happens. Glad she was not hurt! :eek:

Amen to that.
Seriously, people. Why all the bitchiness? You've never been thrown off before? Horses aren't machines, in case anyone missed that vital little tidbit. They react and think differently then we do ;) Anky got surprised, lost her balance and off she came. Stop looking for deep hidden meanings.

WildBlue
Oct. 5, 2007, 05:20 PM
Klassy.

Klassy, criminally stupid.

Tomato, tomahto.


I'm still waiting with bated breath for the how-to video.

cinder88
Oct. 5, 2007, 06:19 PM
All I'm saying is that if Anky likes to ride these hot and unpredictable mounts, then I can't understand why she hasn't learned how to disengage the hindquarters and whip that sucker in a circle before it bolts off through the crowd or rears and tosses her off.

Or, maybe there was another horse coming up here rear? Or a baby buggy that she was trying to avoid? Who knows?

If you weren't there, on top of the horse, at that instant, you are in no way able tosay what anyone "should" have done.

I'm pretty sure AvG knows how to ride out a buck/rear/spin whatever, but sometimes circumstances are not right and it's going to go badly no matter WHAT you do.

Cinder

goeslikestink
Oct. 5, 2007, 06:36 PM
A 2 and all previous usernames= delusions of grandeur

haha - and dressage she doesnt do

probably doesnt know the reverse volte halt - i do

BarbB
Oct. 5, 2007, 06:48 PM
I swear I am just going to read and not post and then somebody hands out presents like this.....


I can't understand why she hasn't learned how to disengage the hindquarters and whip that sucker in a circle before it bolts off .


I would think that suddenly whipping your mount in a head to knee circle in the middle of a victory gallop would tend to make one.....um.....unpopular with one's peers. Especially those in the immediate area to the rear. :eek:

Can you say...carnage?

Reynard Ridge
Oct. 5, 2007, 07:51 PM
Can you say...carnage?

Or trainwreck?

chaltagor
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:05 PM
loshad you're my hero. :D

I second the poster who asked for a video demonstrating said move by AT.

~Freedom~
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:17 PM
You've never been thrown off before?

I fell off.......a long time ago.

Coup De Des
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:23 PM
I She's likely to get seriously injured or killed if she doesn't learn how to utilize the hindquarters to her advantage on those hot and unpredictable horses she rides.

It totally sucks how Anky doesn't even know how to utilize the horses hind quarters.. Geez.
http://www.nrc.nl/multimedia/archive/00091/Goud_voor_Van_Gruns_91946a.jpeg

Erin
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:39 PM
You know, it would be really nice to have a thread about Anky that *doesn't* become a trainwreck. Just, you know, as a novelty. :rolleyes:

Howzabout people just ignore the ignorant-cum-trollish comments, give thanks that Anky wasn't hurt seriously, and move on, huh? There are certain dead horses that just aren't worth beating anymore...

MistyBlue
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:40 PM
Okay Coup...that got my first big *snort* out of this thread. :lol:
I was thinking the same thing...AVG doesn't know how to disengage the hindquarters? :eek: If so, there be some blind judges watching her. :winkgrin:

Seriously...horses are really big prey animals with the logical part of their brains the size of a shelled pea and the reactive parts of their brains much, much larger.
No such thing as truly bomb-proof. Probably no such thing as a dead-head push button packer top level dressage horse either.
Or a great jumper...ain't gonna be a 100% trust-worthy ride 100% of the time.
Now if she were riding in Congress on the World's Best Western Pleasure Horse Of All Time and it spooked and threw her...that would be shocking to me. Those seem pretty inflappable. But most really expressive, really good dressage (or jumpers or eventers) horses have a lot of deviltry that gives them the winning sparkle in the ring.

And for those who seem to think that maybe her horses aren't happy being top level show horses...not meaning any disrespect here but the only way to sum that up is....well, duh. :winkgrin:
The best hope for the top level show horses of any discipline is to be merely content most of the time. Horses are *happiest* being left alone by us pain in the arse riders. Top level show horses are not doing happy horsie things...no herd turnouts, no long turnouts, tons of stall time, tons of soreness and work and schooling and training, tons of medical "maintanance", tons of travelling and new places and show stalls and weird stuff to see, overgroomed, over primped, over braided....what horse is seriously 100% happy and relaxed in that lifestyle?
Not saying it's the world's worst life...but it's most likely not the lifestyle any horse would choose for themselves. Face it...they can put up with it for the care they receive in return...and we justify it because of the money spent and the ribbons to win.
I've got nothing against showing...did it myself for ages. Got nothing against others showing. Got nothing against the way show horses are kept...just sayin' it seems off the wall to suggest they should be happy doing it.

Coup De Des
Oct. 5, 2007, 09:10 PM
Thanks Misty.. But then again - horses don't know any bloody better. They're horses. They don't have complex reasoning skills. They don't know what else is out there. They have no concept of that. They just know their life. They have no concept of tomorrow or yesterday. They're just horses. They don't stand in their stables dreaming of living wild ;)

I think sheer ignorance and jealousy underpins a lot of these threads and the consequent postings that come with them... It's rather amusing to say the least... Do half of these posters even realise how incredibly stupid they sound when they go all Keyboard Warrior on people. Lame!

katarine
Oct. 5, 2007, 10:03 PM
no, they don't.
One the one hand they post on the Endurance/trail board and ask how to develop their mare's neck, while on the other they post here to tell one of the most successful, current, big-wig dressage riders how to ride.

Them's some odd balls. One barely fits in her panties, the other's dragging the ground. No wonder the ayrab protestes too much :D

Sithly
Oct. 5, 2007, 11:04 PM
Them's some odd balls. One barely fits in her panties, the other's dragging the ground.

ROFLMAO. That is a hilarious visual!

MistyBlue
Oct. 6, 2007, 06:38 AM
Nah, I don't think they dream of carefree living either. And they're content with their way of life usually...but it's not exactly a life they would choose if given the chance and able to make a choice. :winkgrin:

goeslikestink
Oct. 6, 2007, 03:28 PM
no, they don't.
One the one hand they post on the Endurance/trail board and ask how to develop their mare's neck, while on the other they post here to tell one of the most successful, current, big-wig dressage riders how to ride.

Them's some odd balls. One barely fits in her panties, the other's dragging the ground. No wonder the ayrab protestes too much :D

haha and not just about dressage or endurance--

Ghazzu
Oct. 6, 2007, 04:00 PM
Allah knows I am most emphatically not an Anky fan, but chortling over a spook during an awards ceremony leading to an unplanned dismount is pretty up there on the petty scale.

Adamantane
Oct. 6, 2007, 05:24 PM
Allah knows I am most emphatically not an Anky fan, but chortling over a spook during an awards ceremony leading to an unplanned dismount is pretty up there on the petty scale.

Probably everybody's face that ought to be hot and flushed has gotten sufficiently red by now. So some small lesson's hopefully learned and what is needed now is a square for everyone to step back to, which probably can't happen while everyone piles on.

Voted against the man (and the guy who beat him), and heaven knows I'm not in awe of most team sports athletes, but always thought it unfair how President Ford mercilessly was mocked for supposedly being a klutz. Chevy Chase even built his career around it. In fact Ford was by far the most athletic President in history and turned down not one but two different pro sports contract offers to go to law school instead.

As they did with Ford, if some militant anti-horse type followed a foal around with a camera, only snapped the shutter when something unplanned and clumsy looking happened, and put it on the 6 o'clock news every couple of weeks, those who don't know horses would be convinced that they are the most oafish and graceless creatures who ever clumped and stumbled across the earth.

This selective hypercriticality tends to be the problem when anyone has a claque of motivated detractors. :sadsmile: (Of course slimeballs like the last two or three Presidents make being a detractor pretty seductive.:yes:)

ESG
Oct. 8, 2007, 12:32 PM
the horses aren't just 'difficult' ones. they are horses other people give up on. they are horses other people can't even ride. junior she considered very 'quiet', even though others considered him not to be. she started out winning the dutch jr national champs on Prisco, an extremely hot, unpredictable thoroughbred.

the comments here disgust me. if you people really were interested in improving horse training, you would not be gloating when someone gets bucked off. you aren't interested in horse training at all, but in gossip and feeling 'holier than thou' and in finding targets to pick on.

if you all really were so interested in getting rid of rollkur, you would have gotten rid of it, instead of waiting for some national humane agency to 'look into it', and rejoicing when someone else actually does some work on the issue.

'Nuff said. And well said. :yes:

hundredacres
Oct. 8, 2007, 03:52 PM
This situation hardly surprises me....she has stated on many occasions that she uses draw reins whilst out hacking...for extra contol,
most of her horses...not just the "famous" ones do not stand still at halt either schooling or in the ring competeing.
The fact is, for me anyway, is that these horses are so restricted for most of the time she is on their backs....perhaps they are not the "happy athletes" she claims them to be. Yes there are some who do have problems in prize giving situations but you hear time and time again of her horses running away with people in the forest, the indoor, the outdoor, the competition arena. For such well trained and happy horses...they certainly seem to have it in for her at every opportunity that arrises.
Now I am not happy this has happened to her...or anyone for that matter....nobody likes to see someone injured. She is alright anyway as she competed the next day.

Is it so unusual for a horse to spook? Even a well trained one?

Is it so unusual for a horse to be well behaved in one area, and not so great in another?

Never overestimate the predictablility of a horse. Even Anky's.

slc2
Oct. 8, 2007, 06:09 PM
bull every competition horse is happier left alone. my old horse LOVED to be at a show. he viewed it as a series of meals punctuated by excellent opportunities to show off in front of - MARES. of course the purpose of the whole gathering was to let the world know how wonderful he was. he would even call to his trailer mate and knicker at him to get him up in the trailer faster.

i can imagine quite a few horses that are drilled to death doing class after class, worked into the ground, missing meals and kept tied to or standing on a hot fly filled trailer all day, find showing to be pure drudgery. but if a horse is stabled comfortably and shown once a day i have observed they can quite enjoy it. having a favorite pal nearby doesn't hurt and usually the work load is lighter than at home. the whole routine i learned was designed to make the showing as stress free as possible and as fun for the horses as possible. i think done that way it can be quite a lot of fun for them.

It is not unusual for horses to spook, in fact, the judging rules are structured around the idea that spooking, unless repeated over and over, is an instinctive reaction, rather than some terrible training or riding flaw.

it is only with the railbirds and armchair judges that spooking is such a terrible flaw.

in fact, i have never seen anyone except this bb bunch be so completely hysterical about a horse spooking or taking off. for heaven's sake it's a horse, not a robot.

in my experience, most fei trainers try to ignore alot of this, and the higher up the ladder they go the less they seem concerned about it.

a gal i used to work with used to ride this horse that spent most of the warmup either on his hind legs or spooking. she was completely nonplussed about it, and used to make jokes about the cell phone reception being better when the horse was standing on his hind legs. the horse wasn't beaten or screamed at or punished in any way, though the trainer occasionally opined, 'he may need an oxygen mask if he stays up there much longer'.

see, you guys look at this from the perspective of lower level riders wanting a steady companion mount to perform quiet, obedient lower level tests for their not so strong and quick amateur owners. but even at THAT level, i've had my horses spook in the ring during a test, and have the judge take NOTHING off - nada - not even comment - because it is simply not a big issue. not one instinctive spook or bolt.

it's only HERE that it is a big deal. horses go tearing off all the time in those award ceremonies, the ceremonies are simply insane - whittakers impecably trained Milton used to turn into something like a cross between the energizer bunny and a lipizanner on methamphetamine in those ceremonies.

and while your horse may not bolt himself, it's a rare horse that won't be feeling a little herd-oriented when a group of horses go streaking by him on either side, or when a big drum bangs, or the like.

SO WHAT. most upper level trainers i've met with view taking that out of a horse as unnecessary picking on a horse that is already being asked to do a great deal, and they prefer to just leave the horse 'a horse'.

Lisa Cook
Oct. 8, 2007, 06:33 PM
It is not unusual for horses to spook, in fact, the judging rules are structured around the idea that spooking, unless repeated over and over, is an instinctive reaction, rather than some terrible training or riding flaw.

But you will still be dinged for a 5 or less (depending on the level of dramatics) on the movement where a spook/bolt occurs, and dinged again with a 5 or less on submission under collectives. Ask me how I know this. (as a former owner of a flaky TB) It IS penalized by judges. Unless I had multiple judges who were all unaware of slc's rulebook.


Could you be just a little more patronizing in your remarks here? Just pat us silly lower level riders on the heads and call us "smurfs", why don't you?


see, you guys look at this from the perspective of lower level riders wanting a steady companion mount to perform quiet, obedient lower level tests for their not so strong and quick amateur owners.




SO WHAT. most upper level trainers i've met with view taking that out of a horse as unnecessary picking on a horse that is already being asked to do a great deal, and they prefer to just leave the horse 'a horse'.

Name names, because, quite frankly, I don't believe you. I've worked with upper level trainers and I've never seen one of them consider addressing a spook or bolt as "picking" on a horse.

~Freedom~
Oct. 8, 2007, 07:34 PM
he viewed it as a series of meals punctuated by excellent opportunities to show off in front of - MARES. of course the purpose of the whole gathering was to let the world know how wonderful he was.

He was a stallion? Did he breed? What babies does he have on the ground?


It is not unusual for horses to spook, in fact, the judging rules are structured around the idea that spooking, .....
but even at THAT level, i've had my horses spook in the ring during a test, and have the judge take NOTHING off - nada - not even comment - because it is simply not a big issue. not one instinctive spook or bolt.

I wish you had told that to the judges that dinged me a few times.

sm
Oct. 8, 2007, 07:36 PM
I've seen award ceremonies where olympic team horses were politely cantering along side by side. Sorry, the olympic rider sets the pace here. Just to think of the liability if she were to permenantly injure another horse or rider during her antics... scary, and not acceptable.

My trainer rides through spooks, she says, look the horse is spooking but you wouldn't know that. Some famous rider from USET, I can't remember who right now, wrote something about once the horse is on the aids he is no longer hot (what my trainer does apparantly). I can disengage the hindquarters on a runaway in four strides, and doesn't everyone learn that at Pony Club? I picked it up on OTTBs.

We need a better role model than someone who expects to get dumped picking up awards. I sure miss Klimke, who BTW rode a "hot" horse. The difference is his horse happily gave us 20-something consecutive tempis in his award ceremony. And I do believe that horse adored him, that was pretty obvious as well.

fatorangehorse
Oct. 8, 2007, 10:23 PM
I'm sorry - I'm green to dressage. what does that mean?

Sister Margarita
Oct. 8, 2007, 11:25 PM
I'm sorry - I'm green to dressage. what does that mean?


Buckle your seatbelts....:lol:

Sabine
Oct. 9, 2007, 12:12 AM
I've seen award ceremonies where olympic team horses were politely cantering along side by side. Sorry, the olympic rider sets the pace here. Just to think of the liability if she were to permenantly injure another horse or rider during her antics... scary, and not acceptable.

My trainer rides through spooks, she says, look the horse is spooking but you wouldn't know that. Some famous rider from USET, I can't remember who right now, wrote something about once the horse is on the aids he is no longer hot (what my trainer does apparantly). I can disengage the hindquarters on a runaway in four strides, and doesn't everyone learn that at Pony Club? I picked it up on OTTBs.

We need a better role model than someone who expects to get dumped picking up awards. I sure miss Klimke, who BTW rode a "hot" horse. The difference is his horse happily gave us 20-something consecutive tempis in his award ceremony. And I do believe that horse adored him, that was pretty obvious as well.

jeezus- you are making me madder than mad...have your trainer ride in the championships then- where is she anyways if she is that good...Klimke was 6'4" and had thighs like Balkenhols nutcrackers...you can't have it both ways- it is apparent that you have no compassion and hate Anky- keep it to yourself please- in the interest of those of us here who admire her for her accomplishments.

And accidents in the prize giving ceremonies are older than old- remember Remmie?? He got kicked in the hock so bad no one thought he would come back to being a performance horse.
Nonetheless- the lack of your compassion for someone else's misfortune speaks volumes...you are the first to go on my ignore...:)~!

Sabine
Oct. 9, 2007, 12:17 AM
and btw- this is what our own Debbie McDonald had to say about the award ceremony in Bremen- where she rode Felix to a great score:

“I was so proud of my baby boy Felix. He handled that indoor environment better than I ever imagined he would. I was terrified to go into the awards not having a clue what he would do. I have to say my stomach was in my throat a couple of times especially when everyone starts off to gallop around. All the horses just go bezerk, so how do you let your horse know that there is nothing to worry about?”



put that in your heads- if you have never been in an award situation- it is VERY scary- all the emotions are running high and the horses are feeling it...big time!

Hazelnut
Oct. 9, 2007, 06:03 AM
I've seen award ceremonies where olympic team horses were politely cantering along side by side. Sorry, the olympic rider sets the pace here. Just to think of the liability if she were to permenantly injure another horse or rider during her antics... scary, and not acceptable.

My trainer rides through spooks, she says, look the horse is spooking but you wouldn't know that. Some famous rider from USET, I can't remember who right now, wrote something about once the horse is on the aids he is no longer hot (what my trainer does apparantly). I can disengage the hindquarters on a runaway in four strides, and doesn't everyone learn that at Pony Club? I picked it up on OTTBs.

We need a better role model than someone who expects to get dumped picking up awards. I sure miss Klimke, who BTW rode a "hot" horse. The difference is his horse happily gave us 20-something consecutive tempis in his award ceremony. And I do believe that horse adored him, that was pretty obvious as well.

"We" need a better role model than someone who trains and rides, winning at the top levels on multiple horses for over a decade...through the birth of two children?

It would appear from her record that she is focused, mentally and physically tough, and clear in her professional goals. Her accomplishments are admirable. They are certainly not diminished by the ocassional unseating, which is reasonable to extrapolate that she all avoids at all costs.

I am amazed that every horse person's response to anyone's unplanned dismount is not, "I'm glad she's OK!" Carry on...

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 9, 2007, 06:20 AM
I'm sorry - I'm green to dressage. what does that mean?

Click on "Search" on the blue banner bar at the top of this page, and type "rollkur" in the box and hit enter. There has been a huge amount of discussion on the subject on this board - I'm sure you will find it interesting reading.

Or you could go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollkur) for the condensed version.

dkcbr
Oct. 9, 2007, 06:27 AM
I'm sorry - I'm green to dressage. what does that mean?

It's a controversial training technique that has been discussed "early and often" here. So, if you do a search you'll unearth quite a bit of discussion about it.

slc2
Oct. 9, 2007, 07:04 AM
"But you will still be dinged for a 5 or less (depending on the level of dramatics) on the movement where a spook/bolt occurs, and dinged again with a 5 or less on submission under collectives"

bull - absolute and complete bull. they aren't judging ladies western pleasure, people! or children's hunters! the judging in this respect is not at all arbitrary or black and white, and it is very fair.

i have been judged many times over the years when a horse spooked and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WAS TAKEN OFF - if the judge feels it is an instinctive reaction to the environment, he does not affect either the collectives or the score for the movement AT ALL - any effect is going to be if a movement was not completely performed as a result, that may happen.

it's very simple. someone stands a foot from the ring and flaps a heavy rubber raincoat that makes a huge sound, my horse takes off, stays EXACTLY on the figure he's supposed to be doing and goes RIGHT back to work, with no overall tension of disobediience in evidence - absolutely - yes, no points are taken off. in my case, judge? scott peterson, one of the best in the business, only comment on the test? 'horse is very serious about his work - good job'. collectives and scores for all movements were absolutely consistent with what i usually got. no change. and yes, when i did 2nd level test two with pony, and he bucked, spooked and acted like an idiot for the entire test, with that cavalier attitude of his - the score was very low. he even figured out how to buck during a shoulder in, top that. one comment, with a smiley face, was 'canter, not redopp, please'.

horse spurts ahead between movements, in response to a loudly backfiring engine, the scream of a rider falling off, a horse fighting and banging in the trailer, or the loud galloping sound of a loose horse galloping past - guaranteed, very little to no effect on score with a good judge.

the horse spends the whole test tight as a piano string, back tight, nervous and tight in his contact, barely controlled, steps like a sewing machine, bolting off more than once or having to be restrained mightily at the tiniest little sound or ordinary sight of a horse walking quietly past well away from the ring - - YES, you are going to lose points! the judges are totally fair about this.

and sometimes it's very unfair the circumstances - like at the 1986 or 7 national championships when someone led someone's stallion back and forth, back and forth, on the gravel underneath the bleachers, during the ENTIRE test of a wonderful rider and horse who shall remain nameless - the ENTIRE test, so that gravel was flying up in the air and making sounds like loud gun shots when it hit the metal braces for the bleachers - YEs - that test was ruined. the horse spent the entire test absolutely bug eyed and frantic, cantering in place, trotting with tiny steps, and bolting repeatedly every time it faced toward the bleachers. the judge has no choice if it continues, he can't make any allowances for continued tension and repeated bolts and spooks, especially during the movements. then he has to just go ahead and take the points off.

klimke 6'4'' and nutcracker thighs? oh for heaven's sake. i met the man. he was no more 6'4'' than i am. he was a slim, narrow shouldered man, slim legs and thighs, not at all tall or massive, and NOT with 'nutcracker thighs'. he was slim and built much like ingrid and not as tall as michael. he had long legs and a short upper torso - ideal rider conformation. appearing very fit, but hardly a massive or muscular man.

and HIS horse alehrich was about the worst you can possibly imagine in the awards ceremonies, even during the tests there were many times he didn't look like he was even going to be able to keep him in the ring -and the warmup! good lord, the horse fell splat on its side in the warmup and klimke went flying. same with pascal, i have a tape of him warming up pascal for what seems like DAYS and the horse is going around and spooking at every single letter in the ring!

i have tapes of several of his other horses - ALL are spooking in the warmups and awards. god forbid if they weren't - someone would have to go and take their temperatures! if horses in that condition, as fit as that, DON'T spook once in a while, i'd be very, very worried.

these horses are as fit as race horses and about to work in the competition of their lives! you BET they're spooky! granat the same, my god, i don't see how the woman stayed on him - corlandus too, and my god, gaugin de lully i used to watch literally clear out a warmup ring! i just watched the tape of klimke's demonstration in NY, and thought 'oh man, here he goes - no - ok, there he goes - hang on - good choice, man, piaffe some more, maybe you can diffuse the bomb that way!' LOL. GOD. and ALL - ALL 'classically' trained horses without any rollkur training - that has nothing to do with it. when stuckelberger was interviewed and asked to comment on her test ('86 worlds, i think, or s'hertogenbosch 87) she said, 'well, it was a little HECTIC, don't you think!' and burst out laughing. she went on to comment that the flowers and decorations were too close to the ring making her horse spook. these, none of them, are trained rollkur. it's just a HORSE!

and that's another reason not everyone can ride at the upper levels! the upper level horse that is eager enough to go forward as much as needed, and not occasionally spooks, that's a rare beast.

they don't go around like lower level or children's horses, and no one expects them to - except you guys! it's ridiculous! it's a HORSE, people, not a robot! even the best rider in the world is STILL not sitting on a robot!

AnotherRound
Oct. 9, 2007, 08:31 AM
Wow. When did you see Klimke? Neat.

monstrpony
Oct. 9, 2007, 08:36 AM
So, all that stuff about relaxation, submission, trust and partnership is just hogwash at the top levels?

cinder88
Oct. 9, 2007, 08:59 AM
Darn...I wish SLC could give the judges around here a lesson in how to judge, because I have ALWAYS received comments and lower mark for spooks...Something to do with that darn "relaxation" thing....We ought to just DROP that from the training scale!

Oops...silly me! It seems I didn't get the memo that we already HAVE at the higher levels!

Now, if they'd just re-write those darn rules to reflect the OBVIOUS.

Cinder

Lisa Cook
Oct. 9, 2007, 09:11 AM
I can only hope that some day I'll be a good enough rider so that the USDF will send me the double-secret judging standards that slc has been privy to gain access to. My theory is that the USDF only sends the slc-approved special double-secret judging standards to those few riders who are processed through a complex mathematical formula involving number of competitions participated in, average scores received in those competitions, and the number of online posts to the internet.

Because what slc is espousing here for judging standards in no way, shape, or form relates to anything I've seen in real life. You know. Actually on a horse. At a show. Crazy stuff, I know.

Eventer13
Oct. 9, 2007, 09:24 AM
Maybe this is too different a situation to compare, but at Rolex the top horses come in for a victory gallop, and everyone seems to be just fine. And those horses are racehorse fit. Maybe its because the gallop is considered the "working gait" of the event horse (vs the trot of dressage horses)? Or maybe they're so tired from XC the day before that bucking is too much work ;)

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 9, 2007, 10:04 AM
Eventer, maybe it is because those dressage "purists" out there (coughcoughslc2coughcough) don't consider "that" (eventing dressage) true dressage!

slc2
Oct. 9, 2007, 10:15 AM
wrong again! eventing dressage is dressage too! thanks for all the insults folks, but that IS how the judging works - show overall signs of tension and disobedience thru a whole test, or for much of it - you'll get a lower score, just like i have on occasion when that happened.

ONE big spook at right back to work without missing a movement or overall tension - very little going to come off that score - i've had both happen to me, with utterly fair judging in both cases. judges don't slaughter the score for isolated incidents. the more the problem looks to be a continuing and basic one, the more the score is affected.

if horsey is going around tight, tense, flinching at every little sound, not focused on his rider, with sewing machine steps and a tight back and finally when someone sneezes he falls apart, and gets glued back together and completes the test while vibrating and cantering on the spot, barely under control and barely obedient, that is NOT what i'm talking about.

i'm talking about a totally calm, obedient, attentive, accurate, thru horse with a great test going, that squirts forward or to the side, not to avoid the difficulty of a movement or to avoid using himself properly, but as a single isolated instinctive reaction - there will be very little to none (none, in my case and very fairly so) effect on the test.

relaxation and rhythm is VERY important, always has been and always will be. but it's not a lying-in-a-hammock kind of relaxation. relaxed muscles are ones that tighten and loosen rhythmically with the strides, allowing very free and active movement, freely allowing the aids to affect the horse's body thoroughly, with all joints working freely over a maximum range.

it doesn't mean horsey is going around with his head down and his eyes shut. and it DOESN'T mean he will be penalized for a single instinctive reaction that doesn't interfere with the test or affect its overall quality.

go ahead and insult all you want, nothing is going to dampen our spirits today.

TBROCKS
Oct. 9, 2007, 10:50 AM
I can only hope that some day I'll be a good enough rider so that the USDF will send me the double-secret judging standards that slc has been privy to gain access to. My theory is that the USDF only sends the slc-approved special double-secret judging standards to those few riders who are processed through a complex mathematical formula involving number of competitions participated in, average scores received in those competitions, and the number of online posts to the internet.

Because what slc is espousing here for judging standards in no way, shape, or form relates to anything I've seen in real life. You know. Actually on a horse. At a show. Crazy stuff, I know.


:lol::lol::lol:


I've scribed for many a dressage test and I've yet to see the judge ignore a bolt or spook. "INATTENTIVE" is the standard phrase. Sometimes if they're in a kindly mood, they'll add "unfortunate" as the scribe is lining through the 7 and replacing it with a 5 for the movement.

AnotherRound
Oct. 9, 2007, 11:31 AM
But TBstones, that can't be true. You can't have scribed for dressage judges, you can't have seen them score like that, because if you really did, then, you are contradicting slc2, and she can't be wrong, she can't be contradicted! I mean, if your experience was different thatn slc2's, why, then, slc2 would just sound, like, stupid, being so dogmatic! And she isn't, is she? Stupid I mean? She's really right! Right about everything. Why, she's so adamant that she's right, she truly must be.

I think folks should just stop thinking and submitting their experiences and thoughts, and just let slc2 tell us the way it is. "wrong again!" And wait til she gets going!

Truly, she has a dizzying intellect.

slc2
Oct. 9, 2007, 11:39 AM
please - you're being ridiculous. i never said anything like that, and you know it. i have no interest in being in such a position or anything near it. all i am doing is disagreeing that EVERY spook is the same and EVERY spook means bad riding and training, and EVERY spook is going to result in a slaughtered score - and my ORIGINAl statement was that - HORSES SPOOK! and you'd all, apparently rather argue about this than focus on the main statement - that horses spook during awards ceremonies - non rollkur horses trained by the SAME trainers you revere as gods with perfect training!

of COURSE there are going to be occasions when it's scored down, and of course there are going to be judges that don't agree with the principle of being forgiving about such things at all, and of COURSE there are going to be situations iwth many different gradations of 'inattentive overall, or was that just a moment?' and judges better or worse at differentiating between the two.

there are going to be riders as well who can't tell the difference between a generally inattentive horse who finally finds something to notice and act up about, and one that had a momentary instinctive response during a test!

there are also judges that think there's a 'correct diagonal'! and PLENTY of riders who back them up.

AnotherRound
Oct. 9, 2007, 11:52 AM
slc2: ...and you're no match for my brains.

us: You're that smart?

slc2: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

us: Yes.

slc2: Morons.

fiona
Oct. 9, 2007, 11:58 AM
Eventer, maybe it is because those dressage "purists" out there ...... don't consider "that" (eventing dressage) true dressage!


It's not.
The horses are really nothing compared to a GP warmblood it's like sitting on a pony. The most advanced test is not even PsG.

Lisa Cook
Oct. 9, 2007, 12:03 PM
It's not.
The horses are really nothing compared to a GP warmblood it's like sitting on a pony. The most advanced test is not even PsG.

So real dressage doesn't start until PsG?

Eventer13
Oct. 9, 2007, 12:09 PM
It's not.
The horses are really nothing compared to a GP warmblood it's like sitting on a pony. The most advanced test is not even PsG.

Wait, sitting on a pony? I agree they don't have to do the really, really tough movements, but these horses are hardly like sitting on a pony. They are fit, and they are extremely sensitive. And they are ready to go out XC the next day, so you're going to have a hard time focusing them.

Although my original post was that these horses generally dont seem to frazzled in the victory gallop. Unlike a lot of those GP warmbloods. Yet most of these horses are TBs and still seem to behave themselves very well. Just wondering why there was a difference, and speculating that maybe, because they do gallop more than the average dressage horse, its not such a big deal.

gr8fulrider
Oct. 9, 2007, 12:10 PM
It's not.
The horses are really nothing compared to a GP warmblood it's like sitting on a pony. The most advanced test is not even PsG.

Where do I start:

(1) Dressage is training. Even training level dressage is dressage-- and I'm guessing that's the level many people here ride, because only 10% of USDF members compete above first level;
(2) BN/N tests are equivalent to training level; T is around first level; 4* is around 3d level, with single changes and trot and canter half pass. How many people here have competed third level? Anyone seen some of the tests from Rolex? Check out Courageous Comet and get back to me. This is accomplished by horses that will jump enormous obstacles out of stride the very next day, and do a jumper course-- requiring handiness that can only come from good flatwork-- the day after that.
(3) Many/most judges at recognized horse trials are "real" dressage judges;
(4) Some event horses are warmbloods. More and more, in fact;
(5) Some TBs have big movement.

Of course eventers don't do grand prix dressage. Nor do they jump grand prix sized stadium fences. It's a triathlon. They increasingly must show very good dressage because the sport has evolved in that direction. Check it out before passing judgment.

And after that, gallop your horse at an immovable obstacle.

Mozart
Oct. 9, 2007, 12:20 PM
slc2: ...and you're no match for my brains.

us: You're that smart?

slc2: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

us: Yes.

slc2: Morons.

The Princess Bride. Loved that movie :)

This is turning into quite the thread. Horse comes unglued at an awards ceremony. Rider caught off balance. Falls off. End of story, no?

egontoast
Oct. 9, 2007, 12:38 PM
Slc's been posting about this time when her horse spooked and the judge did not mark her down for years. I'm thinking it happened in 1978, maybe?

Sometimes they blink or sneeze or drop their pencil or spill their wine, the judges, and miss stuff . Last time I checked, awards ceremonies were not marked.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 9, 2007, 12:39 PM
I agree with SLC's take on the spooking.


Even in Debbie Mcdonalds book she says that some of the horses that beat her were coming out of their skins and she really didnt agree with it but it was what it was. It looks like not only spooking is overlooked sometimes the relaxation is on the back burner. I cant complain since the movements with relaxation is hard for my Arabian he really likes to spark up and I like to let him since its so cute!

class
Oct. 9, 2007, 01:08 PM
well as long as there are two people on the board who don't show at all, but know everything about scoring, the rest of us can just take their word for it and rest assured that they know what they're talking about. the actual competitors and rule books be damned! thanks for spreading your special brand of wisdom you two.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 9, 2007, 01:21 PM
Hitting the cough syrup a little early arnt we Class?

I show almost always once a month it may not always be dressage but I show more than most because I do several disciplines:winkgrin:

CatOnLap
Oct. 9, 2007, 01:43 PM
4* is around 3d level, with single changes and trot and canter half pass. How many people here have competed third level?

If we eliminate everyone who hasn't ridden above 3rd level here, there are going to be about 5 posters. And I will be able to eliminate everyone on my ignore list because they will not be allowed to post.

PS, my armchair never spooks.

Coreene
Oct. 9, 2007, 01:51 PM
When this thread finally disappeared, I was heartened because I thought everyone had gotten a life. Then ESG had to bump it up just to say "nuff said," even though it had all been said more than necessary.

Get a life.

Phaxxton
Oct. 9, 2007, 01:52 PM
Wait, seriously? 8 PAGES b/c Anky fell off during the awards ceremony?

We're talking about riding horses here. Sh*t happens. Get over it.

loshad
Oct. 9, 2007, 01:55 PM
Should shit happen during a test, would one get marked down for it?

Phaxxton
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:02 PM
Should shit happen during a test, would one get marked down for it?

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Don't you know it depends on the nature of the sh*t? All sh*t is not equal and good judges know the difference.

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:03 PM
Coreene, you missed the post where the topic made an abrupt left turn. It is no longer about Anky falling off. It is now about whether "eventing" dressage is "real" dressage.

Your input would be most welcome!

Phaxxton
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:04 PM
Coreene, you missed the post where the topic made an abrupt left turn. It is no longer about Anky falling off. It is now about whether "eventing" dressage is "real" dressage.

Your input would be most welcome!

Wow. That'll teach me to post after only reading 5 pages. :lol::lol::lol:

CatOnLap
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:06 PM
and here I thought it was about eliminating all the posters on here whose armchairs cannot do 4th level yet!

Ja Da Dee
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:09 PM
Where do I start:

(2) <snip> Check out Courageous Comet and get back to me <snip>.
(3) Many/most judges at recognized horse trials are "real" dressage judges;
(4) Some event horses are warmbloods. More and more, in fact;
(5) Some TBs have big movement.



Just pulling out the best parts.

Comet is totally DROOL! There can not be a single dressage rider who wouldn't admire that horse's movement, it is outstanding. I watched him in a dressage clinic this summer... my-oh-my. He uses himself very well.

Actually, I believe that Eventers are more and more riding better Dressage (see the big D?). They are also crossing over and riding in more Dressage shows... and scoring very well. My horse and I do pretty well... um ... except when he spooks, or sightsees in the freewalk, then we get dinged on our scores. I find our scores are pretty much in line between eventing and dressage (I've acutally shown in a dressage show, then for the same judge a few weeks later in a HT), truthfully he does a worse USEA dressage test since he knows the difference between having to do another dressage test when he's done, and getting to go XC when he's done. Looking around for the jumps dampens our obedience scores.

I could care less if a BNT trainer falls off, as long as no one was hurt. Horses have their own agenda sometimes... big deal.

TBROCKS
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:09 PM
slc2: ...and you're no match for my brains.

us: You're that smart?

slc2: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

us: Yes.

slc2: Morons.


:lol:

Ja Da Dee
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:11 PM
:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Don't you know it depends on the nature of the sh*t? All sh*t is not equal and good judges know the difference.

well, if your horse stops to take a sh*t, you get the comment "loss of forward".

akor
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:14 PM
Professional spook rider, former upper level (as in, WAY former) and I was always marked down for a spook. And, always commented on.

I can't remember getting much lower than a 5 though, on that movement where the spook was.

So, I don't know that they count it like an error or really really mark you down for it (spooky), but in my experience, every judge, from little schooling show to bigger time has noticed the spook, made a comment like, 'quick drop left" or "lost focus on half pass, too quick across" (hey, it doesn't say exactly how many strides of canter half pass you should put in to get across, now does it? But, I guess 1 might be too few...;) or just plain "spooky at K".

But, this is hundreds of moons ago.

AnotherRound
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:18 PM
Hitting the cough syrup a little early arnt we Class?

I show almost always once a month it may not always be dressage but I show more than most because I do several disciplines:winkgrin:

but, then:


... since the movements with relaxation is hard for my Arabian he really likes to spark up and I like to let him since its so cute!

Sounds like a treat not to be missed. You really do seem like quite the knowledgeable one. That really stands out in your posts.

fiona
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:23 PM
Coreene, you missed the post where the topic made an abrupt left turn. It is no longer about Anky falling off.

Yay!
Wasn't that a great 3 minutes? Don't go spoiling it now.

One in the five.

cyberbay
Oct. 9, 2007, 02:53 PM
The awards ceremonies are really scary, and it's just as scary for anyone who knows the risks of those things.

A lot of times riders ride substitute horses for the awards ceremonies. That's a fact. And often if the real horse comes in, he's got ear plugs and an ear net on to hold those plugs in. And he's wearing draw reins to keep that front end on the ground. And maybe a dose or 2 of some homeopathic sedative.

European organizers expect everyone to participate in the awards ceremonies (not like here in the U.S.) and it's deeply frowned upon if someone has to excuse him/herself from participating. Anky is a big draw for organizers, so it's doubly expected about her participation.

(As someone already mentioned) I think a lot of horses need to be hot for today's competitive performances. It may be just too much to have the screaming and craziness of the awards ceremonies for these pumped-up temperaments. What's so bad about that? It's kind of silly to take one moment in time, a shapshot, and infer all sorts of things about the horse/rider relationship. I don't necessarily disagree with some of the conclusion, I'm just commenting on how fast to the draw some people are with the facts.

And, boy, I have to agree with SLC's comment about a category of rider (long-term, newbie, lowerlevel, whatever) who get in a swarm whenever their romantic view of what the horse should be doing and how it should be doing it is not matched by BNRs. Ooohh, that irrationality is really something.

Love this thread. And I think most people are being pretty cool-headed about the whole OP, from what I've read...

AnotherRound
Oct. 9, 2007, 03:25 PM
Hitting the cough syrup a little early arnt we Class?

I show almost always once a month it may not always be dressage but I show more than most because I do several disciplines


Yes, but with what kind of results? I mean, one is in halter, the other is getting, what, disqualifications for being too "sparky"? Or you let us know how you are doing with your many, many shows.

Which make you the all important expert on what? Again?

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 9, 2007, 03:29 PM
Yes, but with what kind of results? I mean, one is in halter, the other is getting, what, disqualifications for being too "sparky"? Or you let us know how you are doing with your many, many shows.

Which make you the all important expert on what? Again?


Hilarious and mean all at the same time how do you guys do it?? I show hunt seat not halter its on my sig.

fiona
Oct. 9, 2007, 03:32 PM
Hilarious and mean all at the same time how do you guys do it??

Practice?

Coreene
Oct. 9, 2007, 03:40 PM
Coreene, you missed the post where the topic made an abrupt left turn. It is no longer about Anky falling off. It is now about whether "eventing" dressage is "real" dressage.

Your input would be most welcome!Well, real people know that there is no such thing as "eventing dressage." There are two types horses in the eventing dressage ring:

dressage horses that can also jump across country
weedy TBs that were LTD so that they'd get a passable score

I mean, everyone knows that. All those people in the eventing dressage ring keep having a kerflaffle about how they need to use a breastplate because they can't get saddles to fit, what a load of old bollocks. All real dressage people know that it is just a signal to get a nice custom saddle. And what's up with those too-high top hats?

BarnBrat
Oct. 9, 2007, 03:43 PM
As far as being marked down for a spook/bolt/buck/rear or whatever goes...it would really depend on where it happened in the test. If you canter a pretty 20meter circle at B and the judge gives you a 7 in the score box for '20m circle at B' and the next score box reads 'C working trot' and is scored on quality of transition, ect then your horse could do the macarena b/t the end of your circle and your transition at C and you could still get a good score on your transition. That space b/t the end of the circle and the transition technically doesn't have a score box. I think most judges would not score it as part of either movement, but i'm sure it varies. Of course it would be taken into consideration for the collective marks. But that's just my 2 cents! I'm not touching anything else in this thread with a stick! ;)

Adamantane
Oct. 9, 2007, 03:53 PM
When this thread finally disappeared, I was heartened because I thought everyone had gotten a life. Then ESG had to bump it up just to say "nuff said," even though it had all been said more than necessary.

Get a life.

For weeks she posted *nothing* and now she gets it in the neck for causing all the blood-pressure elevating stuff that followed because she tried to close it off in an upbeat way?? :eek:

And we thought it was the moderators who wield great power!:winkgrin:.

hundredacres
Oct. 9, 2007, 03:59 PM
slc2: ...and you're no match for my brains.

us: You're that smart?

slc2: Let me put it this way. Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates?

us: Yes.

slc2: Morons.
I just choked on a Belgian chocolate (I'm not lying!). It was smoother through the nose than the crap they sell here.

;)

Coreene
Oct. 9, 2007, 04:00 PM
A) my first post on this thread, from last week, also suggested getting a life
B) "get a life" was directed at everyone moaning about the unplanned dismount

sm
Oct. 9, 2007, 04:09 PM
jeezus- you are making me madder than mad...have your trainer ride in the championships then- where is she anyways if she is that good...Klimke was 6'4" and had thighs like Balkenhols nutcrackers...you can't have it both ways- it is apparent that you have no compassion and hate Anky- keep it to yourself please- in the interest of those of us here who admire her for her accomplishments.

this is actually pretty funny. No, you don't need to be an Olympic level rider to either disengage a horse's hindquarters on a runaway -- or to ride through a spook. It's a bit silly to think so. The rest of your post is equally silly, equally misinformed, and not worth my response.

But anyway -- try to have a nice day and not get "madder than mad." I know I will.

Ghazzu
Oct. 9, 2007, 04:31 PM
It's not.
The horses are really nothing compared to a GP warmblood it's like sitting on a pony. The most advanced test is not even PsG.

"Like sitting on a pony"--maybe.

If the pony's name is Theodore O'Connor...

millerra
Oct. 9, 2007, 04:40 PM
Eventing dressage must not be "real dressage"!

Cuz, I as an eventer, have gotten marked down for:

Tension (just about in every one of my tests on one horse - he's a bit, erm, enthusiastic)
Blown transitions,
Jigging in the walk,
Lack of bend and suppleness
Tightness in the back
Cantering in the trot lengthening
Bolting down center line
And, TA DA - the big one -- Curling behind the vertical!

NOOO!!! say it can't be SO - the judges don't mark down for that.... that would be, ah, like toooo classical....

And the final piece: No, I don't train in ROLLCUR - I wonder how I could have all these problems.... hmmm....

Sorry, I could simply NOT resist any longer :D

~Freedom~
Oct. 9, 2007, 05:57 PM
How many people here have competed third level?

Hmmm I have. Done GP and medaled. Even judged as well.

sing
Oct. 9, 2007, 08:14 PM
LEAVE ANKY ALONE
(BOO HOO HOOO)
SHE IS A HUMAN BEING!!!!!!!!
(BOO HOO HOOOOO, sound of hair tearing out:o)
LEAVE ANKY ALONE!!!!!
(BOOOOOO HO BOOOOOHOOOOOO)
YOU ARE LUCKY SHE EVEN PERFORMS FOR YOU BAST***S
(BOO HOOOOOO HOOOOOOO HOO HOO)
LEAVE ANKY ALOOOOOOOOOOOOOONE!!!!!

snoopy
Oct. 9, 2007, 08:18 PM
[QUOTE=Westlaw;2729550]
How many people here have competed third level? QUOTE]



PSG for me....

nhwr
Oct. 9, 2007, 09:03 PM
And what's up with those too-high top hats?Why does it always come down to the apparel with you? ;) :lol: :yes:

Aimee Thanatogenus
Oct. 9, 2007, 10:29 PM
when someone gets bucked off.


Technically she didn't get bucked off.

;)




if you all really were so interested in getting rid of rollkur, you would have gotten rid of it, instead of waiting for some national humane agency to 'look into it'

Now you are just talking nonsensical nonsense. :yes:

Coup De Des
Oct. 10, 2007, 02:29 AM
anyone else get a strange sense of contentment from reading these??

I think I need to tell my Shrink.

hundredacres
Oct. 10, 2007, 07:30 AM
LOL Coup......I don't feel contended, but I do feel entertained. Well, actually yes...I am content knowing all this is so important to other people - that way I can worry about other stuff ;).

SandyUHC
Oct. 10, 2007, 10:44 AM
fiona, do I detect some hostility because where you come from they do not award additional points for *sparky*? Sparky being, like, when FEI judges have to fetch your horse from behind the dumpsters? Or did the pet psychic tell you your horse is channeling his inner eventer and wants a pink and purple saddle pad for Christmas? Don't fight it, woman, you know you want to whoop.

Now everyone, please pull out your protractors and proceed to measure those eventing top hats to determine once and for all whether they are doing dressage. Those of you who have lost your protractors somewhere down in your spook-proofed armchairs please use this time to imagine and suggest other ways Anky could have stayed on her horse. Perhaps the relative merits of duct tape and carrot sticks could now be discussed.

LE
Oct. 10, 2007, 11:08 AM
I'm glad Anky is ok. I was reading about her breaking her leg in a very old magazine at my coach's farm. I hope dressage riders wear helmets when schooling!!! Let's face it--horses are horses. You can't say that because she does X, her horses are hotter than others. The fact is, the horses she choose are probably much more spunky and show exceptionally well due to that! Awards ceremonies aren't something a dressage horse is used to--galloping WITH other horses. Given that dressage rider's have exceptionally long stirrups...staying put would be even tougher.

Rayman421
Oct. 10, 2007, 11:56 AM
if you want to be humbled really fast just work with animals!


I've seen an obedience dog with more titles behind her name than I can recite, lay down at the judge's feet during a competition for a "belly rub" (very entertaining but a DQ nonetheless!)

and I can fill a book with stories of wonderful, well trained, and even bombproof horses who have humbled their humans