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View Full Version : what color is SEAL BROWN??



EquineLVR
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:40 PM
My Trainer and I cannot decide what color my mare is - we are stuck between seal brown and a very dark liver chesnut - how can you tell which one it is?

eqsiu
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:48 PM
Seal brown has black points. A liver chestnut would require two chestnut parents if that helps the decision any. Otherwise you can do some genetic testing for red and agouti.

Simkie
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:54 PM
Seal brown has black points. A liver chestnut would require two chestnut parents if that helps the decision any. Otherwise you can do some genetic testing for red and agouti. Ah...no. A liver would not require two chestnut parents. Two chestnut parents can only produce a chestnut, but any two horses that carry the red allele can produce a red horse. Since red is recessive, it can hide beneath any black-based color.

EquineLVR
Oct. 2, 2007, 05:16 PM
Does anyone have pics of the difference of seal brown horse? or a very, very dark liver chesnut?

Dressage4Fun
Oct. 2, 2007, 05:22 PM
I do,, email me at savvytrainer@yucca.net

vtdobes
Oct. 2, 2007, 05:31 PM
I also have good photos of my brown mare and she has been tested so we know she is not black (not that you could tell from her photos!).

vtdobes@yahoo.com

Dressage4Fun
Oct. 2, 2007, 05:37 PM
so she is a black bay. correct?

EquineLVR
Oct. 2, 2007, 05:44 PM
so she is a black bay. correct?

yes she seems to be - but her black points dont seem entirely black but more like dark dark brown and she has that lighter coloring on her flanks and muzzle.

Dressage4Fun
Oct. 2, 2007, 06:03 PM
ok,, then that is what we call a seal brown (seal points) black bay is one that is dark dark bay almost black all over, but if you get the light right on them (or get them tested) they are not "black"

Astraled
Oct. 2, 2007, 06:05 PM
Najih (http://cmkarabians.com/newalbion/stallions/#najih)

He's brown.

A plethora of chestnuts (http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/dreams/799/hc/red.htm)


If you must know, I think you can get the mare tested for black through UC Davis

Dressage4Fun
Oct. 2, 2007, 06:13 PM
LOL! OH arabs are wierd (I only have one,,ok,, TWO) if he were ANY other breed HE would be a black bay!!
Hubby thinks that OP's horse is seal brown if the main and tail are not black if they are then the horse is a bay (mahogany bay) in the picture the main is on the other side and the tail is not real "visable"

Astraled
Oct. 2, 2007, 06:26 PM
Najih was bred by an equine geneticist, Dr. Ann Bowling, so I'm sure she was technically right but honestly, in person he looks like a regular old bay to me. :lol:

I believe she was hoping the AHA would recognize it as a separate color for registration but I don't think they ever did.

BravAddict
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:06 PM
Seal brown horses do not have off-black points. They have black points. No black-based horse has off-black points without a diluting modifier.

The OP had better just do a genetic test for red factor. If it comes back "ee" then the horse is a liver chestnut. Either that or familiarize herself with liver chestnuts.

Nahij IS called a black bay, by some, I'm sure, but it's a matter of semantics; black bay is a romantic term.

EquineLVR
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:13 PM
LOL! OH arabs are wierd (I only have one,,ok,, TWO) if he were ANY other breed HE would be a black bay!!
Hubby thinks that OP's horse is seal brown if the main and tail are not black if they are then the horse is a bay (mahogany bay) in the picture the main is on the other side and the tail is not real "visable"

Just sent some newer pics - you can see her tail is not black or true black but has lots of light brown running through it - I keep thinking she must be a bay but then I look at her in person and her legs dont seem a true black like other bays in the barn. Maybe my eyesight is going... :)

We also have a very very dark liver chesnut mare in the barn but my mare does not look like her either...

RTBSH
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:18 PM
So what color would you call Piper and Fiato? Fiato's sire is homozygous black. Her points are really dark brown, not black, as are his.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/jadax7/fiatoandmom.jpg

BravAddict
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:26 PM
The foal is black. Her foal coat is sunbleached, and her mom looks like she's prone to sunbleaching too.

goodpony
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:30 PM
This is my seal brown filly...she is almost black (about as black as you can be) with lighter brown in the soft spots. Sire is Grey from seal brown and dam is smutty bay (looks dark dappled bay).

goeslikestink
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:37 PM
Seal brown has black points. A liver chestnut would require two chestnut parents if that helps the decision any. Otherwise you can do some genetic testing for red and agouti.

a bay horse has black points
a brown is brown
and then you can have liver chestnut which ic very very dark dark almost brown /bay ish
colour

EquineLVR
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:38 PM
This is my seal brown filly...she is almost black (about as black as you can be) with lighter brown in the soft spots. Sire is Grey from seal brown and dam is smutty bay (looks dark dappled bay).

Your filly has that same lightness of her tail that my mare does - I can see it in the pic down at the bottom - my mare is not that dark - and her light points on her flanks and face are more pronounced.

rcloisonne
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:40 PM
Najih was bred by an equine geneticist, Dr. Ann Bowling, so I'm sure she was technically right but honestly, in person he looks like a regular old bay to me. :lol:
He's awesome, whatever the color! :yes:

goodpony
Oct. 2, 2007, 09:42 PM
she is definitely seal brown. I think her tail is a remnant from foalhood..sunblleaching funkyness. Pretty sure she'll lose it. She does not seem to be overly subject to major bleaching in her coat, her dad was the same. I think your filly will be similar to moms color.

Fred
Oct. 2, 2007, 09:47 PM
I consider A Fine Romance to be seal brown, but I could be wrong.

quicksilverponies
Oct. 2, 2007, 11:43 PM
Here is a seal brown Sec. B Welsh mare of mine in the first photo and a liver chestnut Sec. B stallion that I own in the second.

goodpony
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:41 AM
Fred your boy is exactly the color I think of when I think seal brown--it is basically black (black black) with brown in the soft spots...elbows, flanks, cheeks. Seal Brown isn't actually brown as in the color brown...its much closer to black.

miraclewelsh
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:13 AM
Here is a recent snapshot of one of my Welsh colts, he is registered with the WPCSA as seal brown.

eqsiu
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:00 AM
Ah...no. A liver would not require two chestnut parents. Two chestnut parents can only produce a chestnut, but any two horses that carry the red allele can produce a red horse. Since red is recessive, it can hide beneath any black-based color.

*smacks forehead*

Duh, I wasn't even thinking properly! Can I blame my stupidity on work related distraction?

chism
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:15 AM
The way I learned it was...a liver chestnut will have a brown tail. A seal brown (dk bay) will have a black tail (and points obviously).

Fred
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:46 AM
Fred your boy is exactly the color I think of when I think seal brown--it is basically black (black black) with brown in the soft spots...elbows, flanks, cheeks. Seal Brown isn't actually brown as in the color brown...its much closer to black.

that's what I think it is too good pony. Black body hairs, black mane and tail, black points, but lighter brown/russet in the flanks etc. His dam was even darker than he is.
He was born a 'regular bay'.
There is a vet in the US doing colour genetics and his contention is that 'seal brown' is a separate colour and his observation is that seal brown horses are usually born 'bay'.
He requested a hair sample from Fred for his study, but I have not heard back.
Interesting subject.

vtdobes
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:08 PM
There is a vet in the US doing colour genetics and his contention is that 'seal brown' is a separate colour and his observation is that seal brown horses are usually born 'bay'. He requested a hair sample from Fred for his study, but I have not heard back. Interesting subject.

Fred are you referring to Michal Prochazka from AZ? I sent him samples on 4 brown horses and the stallion, mare and their 06 colt came back as Aa and their 04 filly came back as AA from the agouti test.

Also he wrote to me, "Our seal brown study is still underway, and the analysis of the
Agouti gene is not entirely completed yet. However, we discovered recently a
marker, and based on the data I have so far, it is consistent with the
seal brown color being caused either by an Agouti allele (At), or a
gene very close to it (cannot tell from the data). This marker is at
least 95% accurate in distinguishing the bay A allele from the seal brown
At allele. The 5% of inconsistency could be partly caused by the
phenotype overlap between seal brown and dark bay, which can be misclassified."

He also ran the "preliminary" seal brown marker test on all four of these horses and the stallion, mare and 06 colt each have one copy of the brown marker and the 04 filly has two.
The three with one copy all "look" like brown horses but, to me, the filly with two copies "looks" bay. She will only ever produce bay or brown (unless bred to a dilute of some sort) as she tested EEAA.
It's all very interesting!

JoZ
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:20 PM
What do you think of the color of this horse (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2609666110098982996MvRocv)? He definitely is lighter in the "soft parts" but I can't figure out if the rest of his coat is sunbleached black or just brown. His mane and tail are definitely sunbleached black. Obviously his legs will give me no help whatsoever! :)

I registered him as bay. There is a tiny chance he could be smoky black; his sire is registered as brown but his sire's sire is grullo out of two browns. Clearly someone didn't know what they were doing. My horse's dam is black out of two blacks.

eqsiu
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:27 PM
What do you think of the color of this horse (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2609666110098982996MvRocv)? He definitely is lighter in the "soft parts" but I can't figure out if the rest of his coat is sunbleached black or just brown. His mane and tail are definitely sunbleached black. Obviously his legs will give me no help whatsoever! :)



I'd say dark bay/seal brown/black bay/brown etc, etc, etc!

GotSpots
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:32 PM
Fred - funny you would say that about AFR - as we've been wondering what to call Tiamo. Much as he gets described as the "Big Black Horse", he's not really black but very dark brown: See him here (http://useventing.com/resources/gallery/2007wellprideaec/Day_1_YEH_Championships/2007_YEH_Chmp_024.jpg), here (http://useventing.com/resources/gallery/2007wellprideaec/Day_1_YEH_Championships/2007_YEH_Chmp_026.jpg), and here (best showing of color) (http://useventing.com/resources/gallery/2007wellprideaec/Day_1_YEH_Championships/2007_YEH_Chmp_033.jpg).

goeslikestink
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:34 PM
Najih (http://cmkarabians.com/newalbion/stallions/#najih)

He's brown.

A plethora of chestnuts (http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/dreams/799/hc/red.htm)


If you must know, I think you can get the mare tested for black through UC Davis


my mare is very dark bay same colour as your najiih she sregistred dark bay shes lamost black

Texarkana
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:48 PM
I am so confused right now.

I thought "seal brown" had nothing to do with actual brown. I always though it was a non-genetic term used to describe those very dark bays who look nearly black, but are genetically dark bay. The picture in GoodPony's post is exactly what I thought seal brown was. Same goes for A Fine Romance. Some of these other ones, not so much... they just look bay to me.

For example in this pic, this is my thinking:

http://s25.photobucket.com/albums/c63/tryphena1/?action=view&current=BrookerStoey.jpg

Horse on the left-- NOT seal brown in my opinion, he's just bay. Even though he's dark and gets mealy soft spots, his points are too clearly visible for me to call him a seal brown.

Foal on the right-- definitely seal brown by my thinking. Genetically, she was by a dark bay out of a dark bay.

We have an almost black dark liver chestnut who I'd love to post a pic of for comparison. Unfortunately, I don't have a pic of her online so I'll have to snap one tonight. Her previous owners thought she was bay, until I pointed out she has no points. (And she's by a chestnut out of a chestnut, lol)

But they are thinking seal brown is genetically separate all together from bay now? If anything, wouldn't it just be maybe a modifier to the agouti gene? I mean they have the agouti gene, right? They are still genetically "bay." And how do they account for regular bays who get mealy soft spots then?

Head spinning...

eqsiu
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:54 PM
But they are thinking seal brown is genetically separate all together from bay now? Do they not express the agouti gene? How do they account for regular bays who get mealy soft spots then?

Head spinning...

I believe the theory is that brown/dark bay/seal brown/black bay etc. is caused by an allele at the A locus separate from A or a, called A-superscript t. However, I don't think they've been able to actually identify a third allele at this point. I would love it if they did so I could test my filly. She doesn't get meally armpits or flanks, but her body is the color of dark chocolate.

Texarkana
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:59 PM
I believe the theory is that brown/dark bay/seal brown/black bay etc. is caused by an allele at the A locus separate from A or a, called A-superscript t. However, I don't think they've been able to actually identify a third allele at this point. I would love it if they did so I could test my filly. She doesn't get meally armpits or flanks, but her body is the color of dark chocolate.

Gotcha. I needed someone to break the theory down for me. That makes much more sense now. For some reason when I was reading that above it just made my head want to explode. :lol:

BigHorseLittleHorse
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:15 PM
Interesting discussion! I don't know much about colors... I always tell people my horse is brown (or chocolate brown), but I don't know if "brown" is an official color. Here's (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2291819060101268642vJEsVh) a picture (the one on the left). His points are the same color as his body. In the winter he is uniformly dark brown, except for lighter brown muzzle (not mealy, just a few shades lighter). In the summer he bleaches out to a lighter brown, but he has no red body hairs. However, when his mane and tail bleach out, they turn dark chestnut at the ends.

If he's not chestnut, bay, or seal brown, is there anything else? Is there just plain "brown?"

vtdobes
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:28 PM
I registered him as bay. There is a tiny chance he could be smoky black; his sire is registered as brown but his sire's sire is grullo out of two browns. Clearly someone didn't know what they were doing. My horse's dam is black out of two blacks.

Since there is no horse with the cream dilution gene in the pedigree you have described then your horse could not be a smoky black (a smoky black is a genetically black horse with 1 copy of the cream gene). A grullo horse is a black horse with the dun gene; which is a completely different dilution gene from cream.
If the horse registered as grullo is out of two truely brown horses then he cannot be a grullo.

EquineLVR
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:33 PM
Ok I am confused too - maybe she is not seal brown (pretty sure she is not liver) I need to take some pics of her and post them. My last round of pics she is really sun bleached and is much darker now - but has those lighter points are still there are her face and flanks - her tail has LOTS of red in it - but maybe its just sun bleached too?

EquineLVR
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:35 PM
Interesting discussion! I don't know much about colors... I always tell people my horse is brown (or chocolate brown), but I don't know if "brown" is an official color. Here's (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2291819060101268642vJEsVh) a picture (the one on the left). His points are the same color as his body. In the winter he is uniformly dark brown, except for lighter brown muzzle (not mealy, just a few shades lighter). In the summer he bleaches out to a lighter brown, but he has no red body hairs. However, when his mane and tail bleach out, they turn dark chestnut at the ends.

If he's not chestnut, bay, or seal brown, is there anything else? Is there just plain "brown?"


Agreed - can you just have brown? Are the only options chesnut with matching mane/tail and bay? Or can you have a brown? Totally confusing myself now.

JoZ
Oct. 3, 2007, 02:38 PM
Since there is no horse with the cream dilution gene in the pedigree you have described then your horse could not be a smoky black (a smoky black is a genetically black horse with 1 copy of the cream gene). A grullo horse is a black horse with the dun gene; which is a completely different dilution gene from cream.
If the horse registered as grullo is out of two truely brown horses then he cannot be a grullo.

Yes, I know. That's why I said "Clearly someone didn't know what they were doing." APHA pedigrees/registrations are fraught with odd things around the creme and dun dilutions: buckskins out of grullos, duns out of palominos, and so forth.

vtdobes
Oct. 3, 2007, 03:48 PM
Yes, I know. That's why I said "Clearly someone didn't know what they were doing." APHA pedigrees/registrations are fraught with odd things around the creme and dun dilutions: buckskins out of grullos, duns out of palominos, and so forth.

But you originally wrote "There is a tiny chance he could be smoky black", which is misleading given the pedigree colors you gave because with those colors there is NO chance of smoky black.
I know there are a lot of breed registries out there with very incorrect colors listed! But this is what you will have when you don't require available color testing. So what do you do!

You CAN get a buckskin out of grullo if that grullo also carries the cream gene and you CAN get a dun out of a palomino if that palomino also carries the dun gene (I know there are lots of dunalinos out there!). It gets confusing when the Registry doesn't recognize a color (like dunalino) and only will register as one or the other color.

eqsiu
Oct. 3, 2007, 03:50 PM
Agreed - can you just have brown? Are the only options chesnut with matching mane/tail and bay? Or can you have a brown? Totally confusing myself now.

I have an old book on genetics that lists liver brown as a separate color caused by a recessive gene at the "B" locus, but I pretty sure that with the advent of genetic testing those horses turn out to be dark liver chestnuts. Which are for all intents and purposes solid brown.

Brown as it refers to horse color is the same thing as dark bay, seal brown, seal bay, black bay, etc. A very dark dark bay or an essentially black horse with brown/tan muzzle, flanks, and armpits.

Tails bleach out in the sun, so much that black tails can look like they were dipped in peroxide, so you have to look at the color near the skin.

secretlink
Oct. 3, 2007, 04:08 PM
OK I have to jump in with my boy as I have never known what color to call him. On his coggins he is listed as "black chestnut" I think more for a description than an actual color. Most think him a very dark liver, some have said seal brown, but from what I have read that does not seam to fit, even though if you look at him, that is what his color looks like, a brown seal coat... when he bleaches he gets metallic bronze highlights. Mom is black and dad was a chestnut. He is mostly one color and his legs are not true black, they get lighter around the fetlocks. His tail looks to be black... what say you?
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x240/secretlink/LexmarkAIOScan9.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x240/secretlink/LexmarkAIOScan10.jpg

Texarkana
Oct. 3, 2007, 04:52 PM
OK I have to jump in with my boy as I have never known what color to call him. On his coggins he is listed as "black chestnut" I think more for a description than an actual color. Most think him a very dark liver, some have said seal brown, but from what I have read that does not seam to fit, even though if you look at him, that is what his color looks like, a brown seal coat... when he bleaches he gets metallic bronze highlights. Mom is black and dad was a chestnut. He is mostly one color and his legs are not true black, they get lighter around the fetlocks. His tail looks to be black... what say you?
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x240/secretlink/LexmarkAIOScan9.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x240/secretlink/LexmarkAIOScan10.jpg

The lighting in the pictures is very dark so it's hard for me to tell. My guess would be dark liver chestnut, though. He looks to have a slight reddish sheen to him, although it might just be the lighting in the pics.

The very dark liver chestnut at my mare is almost the same shade as your horse-- she's just a touch lighter. Her tail is also black, but her mane is the same color as her body. And she definitely does not have any dark points.

It's genetically possible he could be a "fading black" although I'm not sure exactly how the genetics work on fading blacks and non-fading blacks. They are both E_aa... is there another allele there that determines fading/non-fading?

Oy, I can't think about genetics anymore today. My head might explode.

eqsiu
Oct. 3, 2007, 05:08 PM
As far as I know there is no proof of a "fading" gene, but apparently horses whose foal coat is black don't fade? Versus the ones born a mousy grey-brown color? Sort of like a "dominant" black gene (dominant to agouti) has been proposed in some instances but not proven?

And sadly, color is one of the easiest heritable traits to study!

stolensilver
Oct. 3, 2007, 05:46 PM
eqsiu I've had one of those chocolate brown coloured horses too. Black points and a brown body but every hair on the body was the same shade of dark brown apart from the muzzle and stifles which were yellow. The body colour was completely different from a dark sooty bay where there are bright red brown hairs, mid brown hairs and pitch black hairs. The closest description I can think of is a liver version of a bright bay. I wonder if the genetics are different for this chocolate colour?

http://img4011.photobox.co.uk/62727212a044b0137c9d96b0280986ba307185583e1b1dd823 9adf0363e3a38512eb1bb4.jpg

For comparison here is a dark sooty bay with the brown areas varying from bright bay to black. This one goes black all over in her winter coat but I'm sure she isn't a seal brown. I think quite a few of the horses posted on this thread are not seal browns either.

http://img3011.photobox.co.uk/28185505f08d82e9e24b07c0d3af91be5dcc26b8bf3d5ec07d 6ecae96293ab6d30a7b823.jpg

eqsiu
Oct. 3, 2007, 05:55 PM
Stolensilver- Right now mine's a buckskin with dark roots! I always wonder, because if there is a "seal brown" gene, then maybe she's a super dark regular bay and not brown, or maybe I have no freaking clue? I also wonder what causes the different shades of chestnut. Why dark liver vs bright orange? I thought maybe someone had done studies on human hair color that might explain it, but alas, no such luck.

goodpony
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:03 PM
As far as I know there is no proof of a "fading" gene, but apparently horses whose foal coat is black don't fade? Versus the ones born a mousy grey-brown color? Sort of like a "dominant" black gene (dominant to agouti) has been proposed in some instances but not proven?

And sadly, color is one of the easiest heritable traits to study!

My filly was born near black with a pewter colored sheen....she is a seal brown no doubt about it and doesn't appear to fade...her sire is the same. Notice the golden eartufts...this think is a relative of the sooty gene.

http://www.goodpony.net/Moonshadow25.jpg

her full brother was born with leg bars and face maskn(his mother is a sooty line backed bay)..he is turning a sooty dark dapple bay like his dam.

http://www.goodpony.net/Rocky-stripes.jpg

EquineLVR
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:15 PM
OK I have to jump in with my boy as I have never known what color to call him. On his coggins he is listed as "black chestnut" I think more for a description than an actual color. Most think him a very dark liver, some have said seal brown, but from what I have read that does not seam to fit, even though if you look at him, that is what his color looks like, a brown seal coat... when he bleaches he gets metallic bronze highlights. Mom is black and dad was a chestnut. He is mostly one color and his legs are not true black, they get lighter around the fetlocks. His tail looks to be black... what say you?
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x240/secretlink/LexmarkAIOScan9.jpg
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x240/secretlink/LexmarkAIOScan10.jpg

I would also say he is a very dark liver - he is the same color as the liver mare in my barn, except her legs are a tad lighter down near her fetlocks. That is why I am pretty sure my mare is NOT a liver but some type of bay or brown..

Fred
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:08 PM
Fred - funny you would say that about AFR - as we've been wondering what to call Tiamo. Much as he gets described as the "Big Black Horse", he's not really black but very dark brown: See him here (http://useventing.com/resources/gallery/2007wellprideaec/Day_1_YEH_Championships/2007_YEH_Chmp_024.jpg), here (http://useventing.com/resources/gallery/2007wellprideaec/Day_1_YEH_Championships/2007_YEH_Chmp_026.jpg), and here (best showing of color) (http://useventing.com/resources/gallery/2007wellprideaec/Day_1_YEH_Championships/2007_YEH_Chmp_033.jpg).

GotSpots, I absolutely love those pictures of him, especially the second one. He looks gorgeous. I would describe him as seal brown too. When he was born, I thought he might be black. There is a picture of him, 12 hrs old on my website, and he had that greyish colour to his coat. When he shed out, he was very dark, definitely black hairs, black points, black mane and tail, but he did have the lighter colours in his flanks and on his muzzle too. So, I think you can call him Seal Brown too. ;)

My friend Dana saw him last week at Allison's and she was stunned how much he looks like Fred. She also raved about how beautifully he went u/s and jumped in perfect form. Congratulations on doing such a great job with him.

Fred
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:18 PM
Fred are you referring to Michal Prochazka from AZ? I sent him samples on 4 brown horses and the stallion, mare and their 06 colt came back as Aa and their 04 filly came back as AA from the agouti test.

Also he wrote to me, "Our seal brown study is still underway, and the analysis of the
Agouti gene is not entirely completed yet. However, we discovered recently a
marker, and based on the data I have so far, it is consistent with the
seal brown color being caused either by an Agouti allele (At), or a
gene very close to it (cannot tell from the data). This marker is at
least 95% accurate in distinguishing the bay A allele from the seal brown
At allele. The 5% of inconsistency could be partly caused by the
phenotype overlap between seal brown and dark bay, which can be misclassified."

He also ran the "preliminary" seal brown marker test on all four of these horses and the stallion, mare and 06 colt each have one copy of the brown marker and the 04 filly has two.
The three with one copy all "look" like brown horses but, to me, the filly with two copies "looks" bay. She will only ever produce bay or brown (unless bred to a dilute of some sort) as she tested EEAA.
It's all very interesting!

that's the one. Thank you for that - I will contact him to see if the hair samples ever arrived.
I find it fascinating too. ;)

summerhorse
Oct. 4, 2007, 01:00 AM
As far as I know there is no proof of a "fading" gene, but apparently horses whose foal coat is black don't fade? Versus the ones born a mousy grey-brown color? Sort of like a "dominant" black gene (dominant to agouti) has been proposed in some instances but not proven?

And sadly, color is one of the easiest heritable traits to study!


There is sort of a fading gene (or genes) but it has nothing to do with base color but the hair shaft itself (I vaguely remember). I don't remember the specifics of WHAT is affected to make the color fade but it can't be predicted by foal color at birth. Or even at shedding as most foal coats tend to fade before they "molt" ! Almost all horses do fade at least a tiny bit but some just fade more than others because of this (fault??) in the hair. But I am not sure they know the genetic mechanism or how it might be inherited.

Of course a variety of other things can make coats fade too, water, sweat, poor grooming, coat products, poor health, etc. etc.

Valentina_32926
Oct. 5, 2007, 10:45 AM
Ah...no. A liver would not require two chestnut parents. Two chestnut parents can only produce a chestnut, but any two horses that carry the red allele can produce a red horse. Since red is recessive, it can hide beneath any black-based color.


Correct - My Liver Chestnut mare is from two bays - one a black bay the other is a lighter brown bay (Wolfgang KWPN stallion).

eqsiu
Oct. 5, 2007, 11:10 AM
Correct - My Liver Chestnut mare is from two bays - one a black bay the other is a lighter brown bay (Wolfgang KWPN stallion).

I think we've established that I am an idiot. :winkgrin:

Cindy's Warmbloods
Oct. 5, 2007, 12:16 PM
Interesting enough, even the blacks can have some lighter highlights. My filly looked black as a foal but had lighter brown highlights around her eyes and nose. I assumed she was dark brown because of this. However, since she was part of the "dark brown" study (as her mom was dark brown), her results have come back that she does not carry the agouti gene. So she is indeed black. Below are some foal and yearling pics of her.

vtdobes
Oct. 5, 2007, 05:20 PM
Exactly Cindy! This is why visual color determination can be very difficult with these dark bays, browns & blacks. My mare whom I was sure was black (NO mealy areas!) came back Aa.

Beautiful horse in the pics too!

EquineLVR
Oct. 5, 2007, 06:35 PM
well since it all seems rather murky to be able to tell just by looking at them I might just do a genetics test.. I still have no idea what color my mare is - I rode again yesterday and she looked even darker brown than last time I saw her. In fact a bunch of us were talking about her color yesterday and every one agreed that no one knew what it was.. so at least we all agree we dont have a clue!! :)

CyberHorse
Oct. 5, 2007, 08:45 PM
I am pretty new to the board but I am really enjoying this thread. I have a 2yo Friesian Sport horse that the vet and a few others are calling seal brown.

http://rockymeadowhorses.com/quincy/PICT0018med.jpg

He does get a little lighter in summer but almost black in winter.

Thanks for all the great info
Linda
http://rockymeadowhorses.com

JB
Oct. 5, 2007, 10:07 PM
I have an old book on genetics that lists liver brown as a separate color caused by a recessive gene at the "B" locus, but I pretty sure that with the advent of genetic testing those horses turn out to be dark liver chestnuts. Which are for all intents and purposes solid brown.
The book you're referring is quite out of date :) It's now known that brown is caused by another variation of Agouti, so a bay and brown horse will test gentically the same - E?A?. A test for the difference in bay vs brown is being worked on. A letter for brown has been decided, but I don't remember it. Once they figure it out, bay will be E?A?, and brown will be E?X? with X being whatever it is they decided upon for brown.


Brown as it refers to horse color is the same thing as dark bay, seal brown, seal bay, black bay, etc. A very dark dark bay or an essentially black horse with brown/tan muzzle, flanks, and armpits.
See above - dark bay can still be dark bay which is not the same as brown. There are many shades of bay, and there are many shades of brown (as well as chestnut). I DO agree though that many horses who are called black-bay or dark bay are probably genetically brown though.


As far as I know there is no proof of a "fading" gene, but apparently horses whose foal coat is black don't fade? Versus the ones born a mousy grey-brown color? Sort of like a "dominant" black gene (dominant to agouti) has been proposed in some instances but not proven?
There is something in the genetics that either causes, or doesn't stop, a color from fading. It was once thought that a non-fading black was homozygous black, but that has since been disproven. I don't think it's known whether it's the presence of or the abcense of the "fading gene" that produces a fading vs non-fading horse though.

The foal's color also has nothing to do with whether he's fading or not. Usually when a foal is born actually black, that means he will gray out. The ones that will stay black are the mousey/silvery gray. Just like the bay who is going to gray is born bay - not brown with tan legs.

There are exceptions of course ;)

There isn't a "dominant" black gene with reference to bay though. Black/not black, and bay/not bay are totally separate from each other.



I am pretty new to the board but I am really enjoying this thread. I have a 2yo Friesian Sport horse that the vet and a few others are calling seal brown.

http://rockymeadowhorses.com/quincy/PICT0018med.jpg

He does get a little lighter in summer but almost black in winter.


He's VERY cute! :yes: What's his non-Friesian side? I would indeed tend to agree with him being seal brown :)

CyberHorse
Oct. 5, 2007, 10:28 PM
He's VERY cute! :yes: What's his non-Friesian side? I would indeed tend to agree with him being seal brown :)


Thanks, his dam was a TB. You are welcome to see pics of both his parents on our site
http://rockymeadowhorses.com

Dam -TB "No Pennies" Sire - Friesian "Quinn"

Thanks
Linda

Ladybug Hill
Oct. 5, 2007, 10:34 PM
http://www.ladybughillfarm.com/luna.htm

I would call this mare a seal brown, but usually I just describe her as dark brown or nearly black (which she is when she is not outside so much).

EquineLVR
Oct. 6, 2007, 12:43 AM
http://www.ladybughillfarm.com/luna.htm

I would call this mare a seal brown, but usually I just describe her as dark brown or nearly black (which she is when she is not outside so much).

Lady bug - That IS MY MARE's COLOR EXACTLY!! Very chocolaty but not - if that makes sense - not like a liver but like Chocolate. So my mare IS a seal brown..

Thanks so much for posting that pic!! She is the first one I have seen that looks the exact same color as my girl. :)

Zigea
Oct. 6, 2007, 09:33 AM
Lady bug - That IS MY MARE's COLOR EXACTLY!! Very chocolaty but not - if that makes sense - not like a liver but like Chocolate. So my mare IS a seal brown..

Thanks so much for posting that pic!! She is the first one I have seen that looks the exact same color as my girl. :)

I am positive this horse is a chestnut. If she doesn't have ANY black points on her whatsoever she cannot be a seal brown. Seal brown is technically a bay, the black points have to be there.

What colour are her parents?

Annetta
Oct. 6, 2007, 02:42 PM
I've got one that is much the color of Luna, only he is very, very uniform--he really doesn't have the lighter shading on muzzle & flanks like she does--he's just the lovely "seal" or "chocolate" color all over. Everyone calls him a seal brown, but in reality he is a smokey black.

EquineLVR
Oct. 6, 2007, 11:54 PM
I am positive this horse is a chestnut. If she doesn't have ANY black points on her whatsoever she cannot be a seal brown. Seal brown is technically a bay, the black points have to be there.

What colour are her parents?

Her parents are dark bay and grey.

Ladybug Hill
Oct. 7, 2007, 12:22 AM
Luna is most certainly not chestnut--I can assure you. She is some type of black with some modifier--mealy, agouti, or something. I should take a picture of her with her winter coat coming in--very rich black over most of her body.

Black points can be modified by the "wild bay" modifier, can they not? Haven't you folks ever seen a bay that does not have strong black points? The bay may run down the leg and the black points are weaker and often lower on the legs than usual? Also tail/mane hair can be bleached out since horses do not lose those hairs as quickly as their coats.

JB
Oct. 7, 2007, 06:21 PM
Black points can be modified by the "wild bay" modifier, can they not? Haven't you folks ever seen a bay that does not have strong black points? The bay may run down the leg and the black points are weaker and often lower on the legs than usual? Also tail/mane hair can be bleached out since horses do not lose those hairs as quickly as their coats.

Yep, the wild bay can make a bay look chestnut. It can make the legs have a charcoal look to them (as opposed to black), it can reduce the black/charcoal to mid-cannon, it can restrict it to maybe the fetlocks. The mane tends to wash out too, and at first glance these guys can look like a chestnut with a darker mane/tail.