BWP stallion approval question

[ponygirl]

Being relatively new to the org I was just curious as to why the newly approved stallion scores are not published. I come from an org that publishes them so hence my asking :)

[baywithchrome2]

I know they published the total score as of two or three years ago. I haven't seen them since though.

[sporthorsefilly]

Ponygirl, try e-mailing Rhonda at the BWP

[ponygirl]

Took your advice and emailed Rhonda.

[szipi]

The BWP does not routinely give out stallion scores to the public. They just announce whether they approve the stallion or not. This is a tradition, based on the fact that the judges do not just look at individual body parts, but they look at the whole horse, the abilities, the pedigree - and whether or not they need a certain type of stallion or not. The owners, however, receive a score sheet and they get an explanation of it. Andras www.prairiepinesfarm.com

[chaotic mind]

Actually the tradition of not publishing the scores started long ago when some officer's who were stallion owners felt publishing of the scores could have an adverse impact on the stallion's marketbilty. It really depends on the board in the US whether or not the scores are published. So in general at times when there has not been a preponderance of stallion owners on the board the scores do get published.

Amazingly this same philosophy has never affected the mare's scores getting published. I love goose and gander stituations.

[ponygirl]

CM- You spoke what I've pondered.

[risingstarfarm]

LOL. It's really not so sinister!

I'm a board member and stallion owner. Last year, my stallion received the highest stallion score and the year before that, my other stallion had the fourth highest score. Both scores are posted on my website and readily available. Certainly, I am not trying to hide the information.

However, as Andras explained very well, the BWP does not have a tradition of posting the stallion scores.

Hope that helps :-)

[chaotic mind]

LOL. It's really not so sinister!

I'm a board member and stallion owner. Last year, my stallion received the highest stallion score and the year before that, my other stallion had the fourth highest score. Both scores are posted on my website and readily available. Certainly, I am not trying to hide the information.

However, as Andras explained very well, the BWP does not have a tradition of posting the stallion scores.

Hope that helps :-)

Rhonda with all due respect you were not involved in the organizaiton when the decision was first made not to publish stallion scores. I was. If you were as expert in breed history as you pretend to be you would know that You would also know the the BWP does have a history of publishing the stallion scores in Belgium. Therefore the scoring systems is hardly the reason for the stallion scores to not be published. This is not a BWP decsion but a BWP/NAD decsion to not post the US stallion scores.

[ahf]

Oaky, educate me. When you speak of BWP stallion approvals, you are speaking of provisional licensing, yes? With perhaps a limited book of mares?And the stallion then goes on to fulfill additional requirements before they are awarded a lifetime breeding license?

Is this correct?

I know that with the only registry I'm really familiar with, the HAN, licensing in DE is announced either licensed, or not licensed. We follow the same convention here. Owners are given a written score sheet, which they may, or may not, choose to make public.

I have to say, the non-announcement of scores never bothered me, as it was just an initial grading, the stallions have more to prove, and things change. Not like with mares, who are being given finite, lifetime scores and studbook placement.

[Allyn M]

There is much to say at this time about the BWP/NAD stallion selections as we are at a time in our history when thing have radically changed for this fairly young registry. First let me clarify one point. I have attended many BWP stallion selections in Belgium and have never seen or heard scores announced . I would have to see your documentation in this regard , Chaotic Mind , as I don't believe what you have announced to this BB is true. About the BWP/NAD announcing scores , they don't , but the owners are free to use the information if they find it necessary. To be quite frank I don't even remember Simsalabim's score.
ahf .... Yes we are discussing provisional approval of stallions . After provisional approval they then have three years to either fulfill their performance requirements or attend the 100 day test.
In the USA at this time it is very expensive to go into the H/J circuit to get these requirements . Not quite so bad for dressage and eventing but that is rapidly changing . Not all stallions are readily adapted to show life and not all survive the 100 day test. So since provisional approval is only the 1st step the fact that any stallion received blah-blah
score is not a viable marketing point.
For the BWP/NAD any stallion owner that wants his stallion to be inspected must submit the stallion's pedigree to the Belgian Office of the BWP and if they approve then he can be inspected by the judges. They do their own scoring and show the sheet to the owner and that is that.
The BWP has as it's motto or mission statement " BRED TO PERFORM" and that is what we concentrate on. Scores are important in that they tell if a horse is built to perform ,but in the end result they are not only interested in the stallion's performance career but also the fact that he will eventually be known by the careers of his get.What does he contribute to the genetic pool that is important and will this continue through the 2nd and 3rd generation.
The BWP/NAD has received from Belgium an important contribution to our stallion selections in that our USA stallions are now on equal footing with the one's selected in Europe which means that we can breed our stallions to mares in Europe without going through the European stallion selections. As a result of this all requirements have been tightened up and performance requirements will be closely scrutinized.
Any fruther information you can obtain from Ronda as she is the head of the committee that is in charge of this.

[ponygirl]

As I stated before, I did email Rhonda regarding my question in which she answered. Thank-you! I do have one more question though and since Board members are reading this figured it would work to ask it here. :) I have seen the jump score sheet that is used to evaluate a horse. I assume it originated in Europe and is used by the BWP. Am I correct in this assumption?

[dadedt]

Thank you Allyn for clearing up some of the BWP Stallion issues that run through this forum. As a BWP Member and Stallion Owner the scoring (as you pointed out) is not putting any one stallion in a sequence of order as better than the next. They all are GOOD stallions and each is individual, as we all know. I am happy to share my stallions score with anyone that asks, however I look at it as - it was one day in this stallions life and as a youngster. Could he have been better? - of course. As we all move forward with our stallions it is evident that offspring and their performance means just as much as the stallion - himself. We are involved with a few other registries and I must say - I enjoy the BWP the most - and that is mainly because everyone is helpful, friendly and treated equally.

[risingstarfarm]

As I stated before, I did email Rhonda regarding my question in which she answered. Thank-you! I do have one more question though and since Board members are reading this figured it would work to ask it here. :) I have seen the jump score sheet that is used to evaluate a horse. I assume it originated in Europe and is used by the BWP. Am I correct in this assumption?


Yes and No.

The jump score sheet originated with the Belgian judges specifically for the NAD horses. From what I understand (after attending a couple of stallion selections in Belgium and conversations with the judges), there is NO scoring sheet in Belgium.

However, since we had a tradition of giving scores to stallion owners in the US, a system that assessed the jump (as well as confo, gaits) was piloted this year.

[ponygirl]

Thanks Rhonda, that answers that for me. Just trying to understand the workings of the org more. I am fairly new to it and am accustomed to how another works so it's a learning process.

[STF]

Rhonda with all due respect you were not involved in the organizaiton when the decision was first made not to publish stallion scores. I was. If you were as expert in breed history as you pretend to be you would know that You would also know the the BWP does have a history of publishing the stallion scores in Belgium. Therefore the scoring systems is hardly the reason for the stallion scores to not be published. This is not a BWP decsion but a BWP/NAD decsion to not post the US stallion scores.


Why are you being so snarky???? :confused:

[STF]

am happy to share my stallions score with anyone that asks, however I look at it as - it was one day in this stallions life and as a youngster. Could he have been better? - of course. As we all move forward with our stallions it is evident that offspring and their performance means just as much as the stallion - himself. We are involved with a few other registries and I must say - I enjoy the BWP the most - and that is mainly because everyone is helpful, friendly and treated equally.

Totally agree!! Those scores as based on a baby stallion, immature, etc. Its almost impossible to get the full picture of brain/body/temperment/style, etc from a young stallion, IMO.
Its just a small peice of the puzzle to use to establish good qualities in young stallions, but not the "end all!"

Our stallion (also approved BWP) - I love the registry. LOVE working with them and love how the new board is working hard on making the registry better and better. They return phone calls very quick, get paperwork out prompt and have been a joy to work with.

[tri]

On another thread regarding 100 day stallion testing, there is a lot of discussion saying how important inspections, approvals, testing, etc is and how doing these things has pushed forward breeding quality sporthorses. How do you reconcile not having access to the scoring then? It seems to me, the only value in using a system that requires approvals, scoring, testing, etc, is that the results are made known. Otherwise, what is the point?

[chaotic mind]

There is much to say at this time about the BWP/NAD stallion selections as we are at a time in our history when thing have radically changed for this fairly young registry. First let me clarify one point. I have attended many BWP stallion selections in Belgium and have never seen or heard scores announced . I would have to see your documentation in this regard , Chaotic Mind , as I don't believe what you have announced to this BB is true. About the BWP/NAD announcing scores , they don't , but the owners are free to use the information if they find it necessary. To be quite frank I don't even remember Simsalabim's score.


Well if you want simsalabin's score you can acquire a recent copy of the Belgian Warmblood Stallion book from Belgium there all the scores of stallion's that are approved in Belgium are published. But I can tell you his father NonStop's score was 69.85%. I got this out of BWP stallion book that is published in belgium. Now if they don't publish the score's in Belgium how was I able to get this information out of the book they published. One of life's mystery's I guess.

[Bent Hickory]

How do you reconcile not having access to the scoring then? It seems to me, the only value in using a system that requires approvals, scoring, testing, etc, is that the results are made known. Otherwise, what is the point?

There is nothing to reconcile. The results are made known. Licensed or not licensed. Approved for breeding or not approved for breeding. This is completely consistent with inspections, approvals, testing. Not having access to the scores does not, in any way, diminish the value of such systems.

[PineTreeFarm]

There is nothing to reconcile. The results are made known. Licensed or not licensed. Approved for breeding or not approved for breeding. This is completely consistent with inspections, approvals, testing. Not having access to the scores does not, in any way, diminish the value of such systems.

I think Tri has a point here. The 100 day scores ARE published. It's not just passed the test or didn't pass. And some stallion ads use the values for jumping or dressage to promote the horse as a sire based on those scores.

[Bent Hickory]

I think Tri has a point here.

For sure, Tri has a point, but I for one don't agree with it nor is there any factual or logical basis for it. Her point is:

[T]he only value in using a system that requires approvals, scoring, testing, etc, is that the results are made known.

Simply stated, with or without scores, there is value in knowing "licensed" or "not licensed," "approved" or "not approved."

[ahf]

Let me post this in little words:

Provisional Approval: Pass/Fail…this would be the approval process mentioned in the beginning of this tread. Why pass/fail? Because, as was already mentioned by….what? 5 different posters? It’s a baby step. A “try it on for size and fit” test – not a “keep it forever” score. This score is FLEETING, and has a FINITE effect, and WILL be superseded and over-ruled by performance or 100DT scores. Think of it as a PSAT score.

Lifetime License through the 100DT: Scores are publicly given in 12 areas. Think of it as an SAT score. Indicative. Not definitive.

Lifetime License through performance: The journey is evident through scores attained at recognized shows. Those scores are supposed to be available to anyone who wants to look them up.

This is not apples to oranges. The provisional approval is an incremental step. Not the final step.

And let me say, once again, if a breeder is using 100dt scores, or mare decorations and marebook placement, to be their only guide in making mating decisions….they are neophytes…and their worldview needs to be larger. They are tools. They are not a burning bush.

That doesn’t mean that folks that do not post the results of 6 hours of assessment for a provisional license vs. 100 days (or YEARS in the case of performance scores) of assessment are obfuscating. They are just more familiar with the situation than you are.

Pine Tree Farm usually reads for comprehension. I have to conclude from the above that she has already made up her mind.

[tri]

Well, with that logic, everything that you do with a horse is "baby steps" and are only one fleeting instance in their lives - the foal inspection, mare performance testing, the 100 day testing (it is, after all, only 100 days in the horse's entire life), offspring evaluations (after all, Rubinstein's foals, for example, don't show their wonderful movement often until much later in life) and even competing in sport - they can all have a bad day! It seems the Belgium inspectors don't agree with you as it looks like they DO publish the scores.

And, who said anyone was basing their breeding decisions on that one score? Or any one score for that matter? I thought the whole euro warmblood system was based on inspection, ranking, scoring and evaluations, then culling the lowest ones and only breeding the best ones, and on going tracking to see performance in sport. If the scores aren't made publish, how or why would you want to do all that - It sounds like you are saying just save your money and put them in sport.

[Bent Hickory]

I thought the whole euro warmblood system was based on inspection, ranking, scoring and evaluations, then culling the lowest ones and only breeding the best ones, and on going tracking to see performance in sport. If the scores aren't made publish, how or why would you want to do all that

In small words, breed the ones that pass, don't breed the ones that fail.

[PineTreeFarm]

Pine Tree Farm usually reads for comprehension. I have to conclude from the above that she has already made up her mind.

Not sure if that was an arrempt to be polite or just you being condescending. Yes, I do read for comprehension, you not so much.

[tri]

In small words, then, why have a score at all? Why not have a whole system on pass/fail?

[ponygirl]

I asked the original question b/c I come from AHHA background and the approved preliminary stallions are given bonits scores which are published. These bonit scores can be a starting basis for mare owners as conformation, type and movement are looked at. They get scored on pedigree and looked at in the jump chute, where they also get a score. It's just one tool a mare owner can find useful. Of course they are not the bible and those that think they are, well....

[tri]

Exactly, it is a tool - that is why they have them and all the other scores which are also more tools to use. That is what the whole system is supposed to be about - having those tools to look over to aid in decision making and to measure how well the outcome of a particular breeding compares to the breeding ideal set by the registry.

The AHHA pushes the idea that those bonits are very important and publishes quite a bit of information on how to use the bonit system/what it means/etc.

So, if it is hidden, it defeats the whole purpose.

[STF]

So those of you who are going against the scores........ how do you suggest there be a quality control system based on breeding? Or would you rather do as QH and Arab people and bred without rules, stallion approvals or consistant criteria?
:confused:

Maybe those who dont agree with testings, pedigree and such need to start their own registry and have their own set of rules.

The scores are a suggestion people..... a suggestion to what that horse did at that time in life, etc. Its a part of the very small puzzle of trying to find the best stallion for a mare. Then, you roll the dice and take your chances. :rolleyes::rolleyes::dead:

[STF]

So, if it is hidden, it defeats the whole purpose.

I think all scores should be made public, but that is my personal (nobody) opinion.

[tri]

STF, I am not sure I follow your post. I don't think anyone here is posting against having testings or approvals. We are discussing making the scores public vs having them be private. My argument is that if they are private, what good are they? They should be public.

[baywithchrome2]

I think all scores should be made public, but that is my personal (nobody) opinion.

I wholeheartedly agree. Mare owners in the US need as much objective information as they can get on the stallions they are looking at. I want to know what the judges are seeing and what their professional opinion is of the horse they are viewing. This is not Europe...US breeders do not benefit from close proximity and open and frank communication.

BUT, if a registry doesn't post scores, it should be a consistent philosophy applied to all horses that the registry inspects. If "it's one day in the life of a young stallion," then how can a registry justify scoring and posting foal, yearling or two year old scores? And if stallion scores are not published, then why would mare scores ever be published? The stallion has much greater impact on the registry than a mare ever will. If there is any single group within a registry that should have its scores published, it should be the stallions. JMHO. :)

[risingstarfarm]

Are we still talking about the BWP here? Or the concept of making scores public, in general?

If we are talking about the BWP, let me say that the reason the scores aren't made public are at least two-fold:

1) the scores simply reflect the topline, legs, walk, trot and overall impression. It is the exact same score sheet that is used to judge the foals, etc. There is nothing on the current score sheet that evaluates movement at liberty: canter, free-jump, etc. Since the BWP is a performance registry, with an emphasis on jumping, a score that doesn't evaluate the jump isn't really meaningful, and thus, is not published.

2) the Belgians do NOT score their stallions at their inspections. I realize that there are certain posters here that suggest that I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, but that's their problem.

Is there a BOOK that has the stallion scores available in Belgium? There is a BOOK that depicts the approved stallions in the BWP. The only statistics in it concern the ratio of colts/fillies produced. You can buy it via the BWP shop. Does it contain stallion inspection scores? As of a few years ago, NO. And since someone suggested that I don't know the HISTORY of the BWP, I would expect that something posted a few years ago covered this "historical" period.

The provisional inspection of stallions for the BWP is really a pass/fail system. As several knowledgable posters have pointed out - the lifetime license is gained by passing the 100dt (those scores are readily available) or meeting certain performance criteria (also readily available via the USEF or FEI if in Europe).

No one is trying to hide anything as far as I can tell.

[tri]

Rhonda, I am not suggesting you don't know what you are talking about. Do you know why the other poster could easily look up Non Stop's scores, though?

[risingstarfarm]

Kathy, I wasn't suggesting you.

Anyway, I have NO idea where anyone could have looked up a "score" for Nonstop, since scores are NOT given at the inspection.

This response is per our former registrar as well as people associated with the inspection in Belgium. In fact, one of the judges who comes to the US from Belgium wanted to know what book the poster was talking about because he had NEVER heard of such a thing. He thought maybe he could get a copy, LOL.

[chaotic mind]

Kathy, I wasn't suggesting you.

Anyway, I have NO idea where anyone could have looked up a "score" for Nonstop, since scores are NOT given at the inspection.

This response is per our former registrar as well as people associated with the inspection in Belgium. In fact, one of the judges who comes to the US from Belgium wanted to know what book the poster was talking about because he had NEVER heard of such a thing.

Stallions Belgian Warmblood editor R. Eerdekens, print Drukkerij Hendrix Lay-out R.Gijsenbergh phone ++32-16 47.99.85. That is the one that contained only current stallions for the year it was published. 1996. There is another version Tan cover in 2 volumes that contains the entire stallion history of the breed very valuable for breeders who think in more than one generation with reguard to their breeding program. The comittee from Belgium used to bring updates to that one each time they came.

[Allyn M]

Perhaps I can help clear up some of the misconceptions . First of all Barbara Rice is correct in one aspect . There used to be loose leaf hard backed folders with all of the stallions provisionally accepted into the BWP registries and when the judges came they would bring the sheets from the previous year. That is no longer done. There are two scores at the bottom of the pages :one is Uitslag meaning forward movement and also Gemiddelde meaning average . Not all of the stallions who have pages in these books have numbers after these two Flemish words and I believe ( Although this is not written in stone ) that permission must be asked of the owner to print these numbers . The scores are not announced at the stallion selections and they never become an issue nor would any reputible Belgian breeder pay any attention to them if they were. This is the first leg in a long line of effort on behalf of the Owner and horse to make the final performance requirements and after that he may not make it in the breeding shed. Perhaps his get will do nothing ; maybe he will get injured ; maybe his owner will run out of money ;maybe he will get sold and gelded ...... many things can happen to affect a stallion's career so the importance put on a scoring system for provisionally approved stallions is not a satisfactory criteria upon which to make a decision.
I am sure there are stallion books published in Europe ( I have several ) where the owner of the stallion pays to get into the book and can say anything he wants and no one ever publically questions his information. Sorta like American spin or the guy with the biggest color ad is the best . Hardly anyone ever checks on his information ..... they just believe it because it the neatest ad.
Barbara , I am not curious about Simsalabim's provisional score . Here is what means something to me . HIs babies are all easy to work with and easy to ride / He got his performance requirements in two years and jumped to GP level before he came home to breed and I still have GP riders asking me if I want to send him back on the circuit. I don't.
His oldest jumping horse ( D'orV D'or < X Dante B > ) was awarded champion for best performance at the midwest finals for the 4 year olds for the International Jumping Futurity.
His oldest horse ( Ali Baba B )is leading horse for Horse of the Year for the USDF at 2nd level but even more important is that Ali Baba B is ridden by both his trainer and Owner both over 50 and they will both win the Vintage Cup at 1st and 2 level .
About Non Stop you can find the important information on him by checking www.hofterleeuwe.be ( the frozen semen station ) and go to stallion price list and click on his name. His sire Darco is Leading sire for the WBFSH and the USEF.

[Allyn M]

Forgot to add that I talked to Nonstop's owner this morning and Nonstop at age 17 bred over 200 mares last season . I also learned that the other colt that I looked at when I purchased Simsalabim and with the same Nonstop X Feinschnitt breeding , Semsaladem V Berkenbroeck was in the 8th leg of the Global Champions tour in Athens Greece at 1.60 m
Two rounds and a jump off against such horses Shutterfly / ArkoIII / Anthem / Goldfever etc. Although he did not place this speaks volumes about the breeding combination.
Nonstop's owner is the only owner/breeder I know who has had two Olympic champions in his barn, Jus de Pomme and Feinschnitt .
And before someone tries to correct me he sold Jus de Pomme to VDL prior to the 1996 Olympics and Feinschnitt was 10th in Show Jumping in the LA Olympics.

[risingstarfarm]

Thanks for the explanation Allyn.

The loose pages are inserted into the book that I mentioned that contains the entire history of the approved Belgian Warmblood stallions. If scoring was a huge part of the approval process, there would be an explanation of a standardized scoring system as well as scores reported for every stallion (something similar to the Holsteiner boniting system for example). This simply is not the case.

I've sent photos of the stallions provisionally approved in the US for inclusion in this book and expect that this historical cataloging will continue.

[ponygirl]

Is there a way to find out what stallions have completed their performance requirements? This has always been difficult to research in some other registries so if scores are not important with the BWP approvals, as a mare owner, I then have to rely heavily on whether the stallion has completed their performance requirements in the alloted time. Where would I, as a potential BWP breeder, find this information?

[tri]

That is a great update on Simsalabim and Non Stop. Simsalabim has always been one of my absolute favorites and I wish that he could have continued his career in sport though I completely understand the reasons.

It is very interesting about that book. I don't think anyone is looking to use the scores as a big part of the decision making process, however.

What I do think is that there is and has been a, shall we say, fading off period, going on with warmblood breeding in this country. More people, myself included, are questioning how the system is being applied in our country. Does it mean anything here? I know it does in europe and has been very successful. But is the system producing the same results here and if not, why not? And what would need to be changed to make it more successful? Do the scores given to horses here in the U.S. really relate to horses going to the higher levels of sport - higher scoring horses = more potential that is fulfilled? In other words, does the european scoring system work in american markets? When a breeder says this foal scored "x", does it mean anything here whatsoever? I think more and more people are getting jaundiced and saying it doesn't mean much at all.....and we are spending so much money doing it too.

[risingstarfarm]

Is there a way to find out what stallions have completed their performance requirements? This has always been difficult to research in some other registries so if scores are not important with the BWP approvals, as a mare owner, I then have to rely heavily on whether the stallion has completed their performance requirements in the alloted time. Where would I, as a potential BWP breeder, find this information?

This information will be in the stallion directory. It used to be in the directory and I missed putting it in the last couple of years (missed it one year and then it wasn't in the template and got skipped). However, you can always contact stallioninfo@belgianwarmblood.com and ask about a specific stallion :-)

[Allyn M]

Kathy,
I've got to quit posting or I'm not going to get anything else done today. Here is my take on the systems going today in the USA . The absolute most important thing right now IMHO for American Sport Horse breeders is to establish a data base .Without that kind of information it is very hard to make good decisions without a lot of research ,however getting that together is pretty darned hard. I very much wanted the Fed to take a lead in establishing at least a start in that direction and whenI was the BWP rep to the Fed I made that suggestion ,but timing was bad as the fall out from the report on the 100 day test was taking place and nothing got started . The USEF is not going to get going on it as it is a showing organization with trainers and show managers mostly in the decision making process so each organization is going to have to do their own database until we can find someone with a great amount of disposable cash to fund an office of data processors who are also pedigree knowledgeable . At that time maybe we can beg each organization for their records to help the US sport horse industry. The BWP would be happy to share their records with such an organization.
Another factor is that people make breeding decisions based on hype and never bother to look anything up. There is a tremendous plethora of information on the internet on both stallions and mares as well as their get. If everyone would do their research prior to breeding and choose their stallions to suit their mares they might find that their foals would be more marketable. Of course there are always the breeders who say this is my favorite mare and I am never going to sell the foal so I will breed to whomsoever I like only to find out later that the stallion puts out horses only suitable for pros and the breeder is never going to be able to ride the resulting foal or that life's circumstances may change and the breeder will have to sell the foal and the mare both. Producing marketable foals is very important even if you don't think so right away.
Another issue about marketability which is never discussed is that "What exactly is the market" ?? When we were putting together a proposal about hunters to the BWP NSM sent me a research analysis of the sport horse market and it was something like this ( I cannot find the paperwork right now so this is what I remember ) . Hunters and Jumpers about 54%
with the bulk of that figure being the hunter market / Dressage was about 15% and eventing about 7% and the remaining were Driving etc. Now given that figure IMHO if you are not breeding for a horse that may be able to do a variety of things with a variety of riders you are not addressing the issue of having to sell the horse which in most cases you will ( even if you don't want to think about it right now ).
Hopefully for everyone no matter which registry they are loyal to at the moment the time will come when we can be under one banner , but because of the size of the US and the fact that we are free to do as we please it is not going to be anytime soon.
I have learned everything I know from the Belgian and Dutch breeders and I will be forever grateful to them as they have been very comfortable with sharing information.
Unfortunately the only major jumper breeding farm in the states that I have visited was Joan Irvine Smith's in California and she has been a major factor in the breeding of jumpers in the states and actually started the performance horse registry . A Performance Horse Registered horse ( Ocean Bubbles ) came in first in the 5 year old Midwestern Finals for the Young Jumper Championships . This horse was only registered with the PHR as it was half TB and was bred by Joan Irvine Smith . There was also a JC registered TB in the final 15 horses. A great class with a course designed by Leopold Palacios. One of our homebreds Centurion B was reserve champion and was ridden by a 16 year old girl.

[Bent Hickory]

More people, myself included, are questioning how the system is being applied in our country. Does it mean anything here?

Same questions, same implied disparagement ... no suggestions for moving this forward in a positive fashion ...

You really need to come up with a new verse and some new steps to this song and dance.

[PineTreeFarm]

Kathy,
Unfortunately the only major jumper breeding farm in the states that I have visited was Joan Irvine Smith's in California and she has been a major factor in the breeding of jumpers in the states and actually started the performance horse registry . A Performance Horse Registered horse ( Ocean Bubbles ) came in first in the 5 year old Midwestern Finals for the Young Jumper Championships . This horse was only registered with the PHR as it was half TB and was bred by Joan Irvine Smith .

I'm surprised that you've given Joan Irvine Smith credit for starting the PHR. The founder of the PHR is generally given as Ned Bonnie in partnership with the JC. Originally it was ONLY for TB's and later changed to allow 1/2 TB's and then finally any breed. I'm sure she was heavily involved with it but most likely only after it was no longer exclusively a TB database.

The Young Jumper database is online through their website. There are many horses in that program that do not have WB registry status as they accept PHR, TB and also issue their own recording certificates if the stallion is recorded with them. Their database is very useful as it goes accross registry lines and lists pedigree info in addition to performance records.

[tri]

"Hopefully for everyone no matter which registry they are loyal to at the moment the time will come when we can be under one banner , but because of the size of the US and the fact that we are free to do as we please it is not going to be anytime soon."

Allyn, as usual, your comments and observations are very keen. I agree wholehearted regarding the USEF not wanting or interested in putting together a database. Even if all the warmblood breeders were united, I don't think the numbers would have enough power to get it done with them. I am glad to hear that the BWP is interested in sharing info but so many others are not - we all saw that when the investigation was being done by the Federation.

Bent, you apparently haven't been paying attention. I guess having that uncooperative attitude does that.

Allyn, we have had a lot of conversation regarding how British Breeding has solved some of the same type of problems. Could the database be brought up with the Federation again?

[ponygirl]

Looking info up is easy to do on stallions that have been breeding for awhile and have get that are now of riding age. I am one to do homework but when you want to try and give a young stallion some mares that is where it's a gray area as there is not much to start with. A simple pass/fail is not helpful in when you are wondering about say hindleg conformation b/c perhaps you have a wonderful performance mare who is slighly sickle-hocked. I'm just tossing out that as an example. Foal scores don't mean much to me as that is one day in a life of a foal. Some type of information, in this case, would be nice as a starting point. Of course one can call the SO but that is not a guarantee that all questions will be answered. I have bred to young stallions and performance stallions in the past and will continue to do so but I do like to have as much available information there is I can get. If this means conformation scores that some view as useless, well, I like useless information then.

[risingstarfarm]

A simple pass/fail is not helpful in when you are wondering about say hindleg conformation b/c perhaps you have a wonderful performance mare who is slighly sickle-hocked.............If this means conformation scores that some view as useless, well, I like useless information then.

How many registries assess points that are this fine in their stallion approval? I've only been to Trakehner and BWP inspections. Trakehner inspectors do score/comment to this degree on conformation, but I've never seen a Belgian Inspector do so. I've seen comments like "conformation ok" or "nice topline". I'd be curious as to whether the Holsteiners, etc., do.

[baywithchrome2]

How many registries assess points that are this fine in their stallion approval? I've only been to Trakehner and BWP inspections. Trakehner inspectors do score/comment to this degree on conformation, but I've never seen a Belgian Inspector do so. I've seen comments like "conformation ok" or "nice topline". I'd be curious as to whether the Holsteiners, etc., do.

:eek::no:

[tri]

Well, I know the AWR comments on every single stallion in a very VERY detailed way, starting from the head and discussing every body part, and commenting on every aspect of how the stallion (also foal, younghorse & mare) that is presented. It is announced over the loudspeaker with the stallion in the ring while onlookers watch, look & listen.

[risingstarfarm]

:eek::no:


LOL!

They describe the characteristics during the follow-up session, they just don't write down a detailed description. The scoresheets are generally do not have a lot of detail. I think most of what is assessed is done with discussion between the judges (and the stallion owner at the end), that's why the scoring has never been such a big deal.

[baywithchrome2]

LOL!

They describe the characteristics during the follow-up session, they just don't write down a detailed description. The scoresheets are generally do not have a lot of detail. I think most of what is assessed is done with discussion between the judges (and the stallion owner at the end), that's why the scoring has never been such a big deal.

Sorry, that still leaves me feeling less than good. It completely leaves the mare owner out of the equation and completely reliant on the SO to convey the information given by an objective 3rd party. Maybe life's experience has made me jaded, but I doubt all that the judges said about a stallion will be shared. Again, JMHO. :no:

[chaotic mind]

Boy the posting of one score really gets some people stirred up. Allyn by the way if you looked at the book you would see that 69.85 isn't a bad score in Belgium in fact it was almost 2 points higher than Jus De Pomme. There is one approved stallion with a score of 54.08 and very few over 75. NonStop's score is a high middle. No need to be calling all over the world to justify that the horse is good. If the information was more open people would be able to see for themselves what the scores really mean.

The simple truth is this when people hide things other people assume they have something to hide. It's just like that appearence of a conflict of interest thing I keep trying to explain.

As far as the stallion owners can give you the score, well unless there is a way to verify what score how do we know it is true? All mare owners know of stallions who are advertised 1 or 2 inches taller than they really are why should we count on the scores being accurately remembered by the stallion owner. We look to the breed organization to be the authoritative source on such things not hide the facts. Also when the board members have access to the year's scores and the other stallion owners do not it puts them at an advantage. Someone who does not have access to all the scores can't say if their stallion was 1st or 4th but a board member can.

As someone who does genetics as a hobby and in the past has done statitcal analysis for one of the country's top geneticists, the scores provide tons of information especially in trend analysis consistancy of produce etc. Yes sometimes you have to do some weighting based on year or location the score was recieved at. (a horse showing in an indoor ring is generally going to do better than a horse shown on a gravel driveway) From this I know to never add Ramiro blood to my line. Not that it is bad blood just not a good blood with my line.

To imply that the scores would not be understood does the members of your organization a diservice. We are not children. We know how to interperate data. When you have the books you can see which lines might have low scores but then go on to perform. Most likely they are late bloomers. This is important for a breeder to know, because then they can plan when to market that horse. It also helps them correctly price a horse and not sell it for a song as a 3 year old because it looks like baby hughy and then kick themselves when it is a drop dead gorgious 5 year old.

If a "score is not a viable marketing point" why is this the first line in your discription of Simsalbim on your website? "After winning the 1997 two-year old futurity with a score of 77, SIM was provisionally approved in 1998 for Stallion Service." http://www.bannockburnfarmllc.com/stallion_simsalabim.html

[ahf]

Thank you Pine Tree for that. It was most assuredly Ned Bonnie who forked over an obscene amount of cash to the Jockey Club for the PHR, in an effort (fruitless) to make a “for real” past performances database.

If I remember rightly, he was approached rather recently (again!) to fork over money a second time to make this happen.

[Dressage-ryder]

I really don't see what the fuss is over these scores, either way, if they are published or if they aren't. Publishing them would be great as it would be nice to see what the judges thought of the stallion other than pass/fail.If there are no scores published,I simply ask the SO about scores and show records. If you really feel like a stallion owner is lying to you about the stallions scores WHY, I repeat, WHY would you even think about doing business with them?????
I have found the SOs I deal with very open to talking about the scores that their horses have received .. If a MO that felt uneducated about breeding to a stallion I would think they should be researching conformation, bloodlines, proven crosses and offspring.. Not a score from 1 day out of that stallions life.
I think the more important scores are the ones that come after the "approval". A stallion that is making the sport requirements and doing well in the breeding shed will far more impress me than a stallion that is sitting in a stall doing nothing but got an "8" for his legs..

Some stallions on the roster that need to meet performance requirements are well bred, excellent type, super additions to the american breeding shed and they are doing nothing in the arena!!!! That is a bigger concern to me than scores being published!

Hopefully there can be a balance in the future that will make everyone happy. I like reading through the scores at the end of the year and would love to see the stallion scores, but its not something I use as a "needed" tool for picking a stallion..

[STF]

I will add this -
Our stallion is approved with several different regsitires and all the registires judged him differently. Some huge "swings" in scores and such. Even his 100DT scores, etc. So, what does that tell us? Judging standards vary? Horses can change from day to day? All scores were acceptable, but its hard to judge. He got 8 and 9's on his walk with three different regstries and then got a 6 from the RPSI because he was dancing/excited and would not walk (they could not judge it when it does not happen!).
So..... all in all, use the points, but you also have to look past the points sometimes.
:)

[Dressage-ryder]

Very true STF!

[chaotic mind]

I really don't see what the fuss is over these scores, either way, if they are published or if they aren't. Publishing them would be great as it would be nice to see what the judges thought of the stallion other than pass/fail.If there are no scores published,I simply ask the SO about scores and show records. If you really feel like a stallion owner is lying to you about the stallions scores WHY, I repeat, WHY would you even think about doing business with them?????


Simple fact is you don't know who is honest and who isn't. Or when they are telling the truth but not all of it. Things like top scoring stallion at his site sound impressive until you find out there was only one stallion at that site.

Face it there are people who are less thatn honest in the horse business. They don't wear signs and they often don't view themselves as dishonest. Nobody is a villian in their own eyes. I know of one stallion owner who said all her stallions foals got first premium I said what about this foal? The response was Oh that one doesn't count I told her not to present it. She honestly thought her statement was truthful.

Trust but verify is the watch word.

[Dressage-ryder]

You don't know who is honest and who isn't but you DO know a good stallion, or you should if you are breeding.

CM- You said " Things like top scoring stallion at his site sound impressive until you find out there was only one stallion at that site."

I agree, and I find it funny when people say " Champion" when only 1 was at the site or in the group ( I see it in the weanling and 2 yr old stuff also)...
However, I would be the first to ask," Your stallion was the top scoring stallion, what were his scores and how many were presented".
I never expect people to tell me the bad or not wonderful stuff,so I ask the questions that will hopefully get the answers I need.
There are also honest mistakes people make. I see "premium BWP mare" on breeder websites all the time, in fact, I thought I had two "premium" mares. I was told that over a 71 at inspections was a premium score. My girls got a 72 and 75, so I had them listed as "premium" with BWP..
I recently found out, there is no such thing as "premium" in the US for mares. :( opps! Going to change website now ;)


I guess its just difference in breeders, to me a score isn't going to be a make or break point in picking a stallion. Its not really even going to matter. I find the value in the show arena and breeding shed.I think its clear from this thread that MOs do want published scores and maybe those who will be attending the meeting can bring it up? It seems to be something that many feel strong about, so who knows.

[risingstarfarm]

Well, the bottom line re: the BWP stallion scores and "hiding" is this:

The scores that the stallions receive comment on: legs, topline, walk, trot and overall conformation. Basically, this is the "triangle" assessment.

However, the judges also see the stallions at liberty and free-jumping.

The BWP is a performance registry that puts a premium on the jump.

Therefore, why in the world, would the BWP/NAD publish stallion scores that don't take the jump, canter and at liberty trot into consideration???????

Basically, the way it is set up, a young, attractive stallion that trots well in hand will score better than a horse that is proven in GP. IMHO, that's misleading and therefore, the scores were not posted.

When we (the BOD) questioned the judges and asked them how the Belgian stallions were scored - we were told - there is no score sheet. It's a qualitative assessment: pass/fail.

However, since American breeders were asking for scores, we piloted a new score sheet in 2007 that quantifies not only confo, gaits and impression, but also canter, and free-jump. Hopefully, when this system is refined, we will publish scores. In the meantime, I shared this information with anyone who PM'd me and was quite dismayed to see the trainwreck that this thread had turned into.

In my opinion: choosing a stallion for any of my mares is based on 1) pedigree, 2) performance, 3) confo/gaits from a video and 4) get. In my opinion a single number such as "70%" doesn't add anything to the picture.

[risingstarfarm]

p.s. regarding the "Score" given in the book.

Untill 1996 in the stallions book, the total score a stallion obtained during his riding test was published. Fron 1997 no more scores were given and as a consequence not published.

The riding test takes place in March, two months after the inspection. There was never any score associated with the initial, provisional stallion inspection.

[tri]

Dressagryder posted: "In my opinion: choosing a stallion for any of my mares is based on 1) pedigree, 2) performance, 3) confo/gaits from a video and 4) get. In my opinion a single number such as "70%" doesn't add anything to the picture."

Risingstar posted: "In my opinion: choosing a stallion for any of my mares is based on 1) pedigree, 2) performance, 3) confo/gaits from a video and 4) get. In my opinion a single number such as "70%" doesn't add anything to the picture."

So, THEN WHY DO IT? That is what I keep asking! If the mare owner is STUPID for looking at scores that breeders SPEND SO MUCH MONEY to get, then why are we all out there running around to a zillion inspections, hanging on the 100 day stallion testing, foaming at the mouth to get foals inspected all for a score that YOU SAY DOESN'T MATTER! You say it is just one day. You say it only matters what the horse does performance wise and what the resulting offspring do. So WHY ARE YOU TAKING YOUR HORSES TO GET SCORED THEN????? What does it mean to american breeders? You guys are saying it means nothing. Do you realize that?

Just spend the money on putting the horse in sport!

[ponygirl]

I have a friend in Europe who took over her AHS mare. Bred the mare to a GOV stallion and didn't have to take her to inspections. Foal was inspected and put into the book. Mare was then bred to a KWPN stallion- again, did not have to take her to get looked at. It's very different there than it is here. I have talked to a Stallion owner based in Europe and none of his mares have been inspected yet the foals are registered KWPN. Here, we have to take them as it's mandatory.

[Dressage-ryder]

I took my mares to the inspections because I wanted the foals to have papers.. pretty simple. Two of our foals haven't been presented due to situations going on at the time. However, since the mares were inspected the foals were papered via mail.
I presented a filly this year to BWP because 1) The new owner wanted her to be presented 2) I do like to hear what the judges say on the foals
I'm not saying it is stupid/wrong to take horses to inspections- I am saying I don't breed to a stallion simply based on ONE score, I think there is more to the picture.I think its great when a stallion you like has also done super in inspections/testing, but its not the make or break point for me.

You are right though- Performance means more to me that an inspection score at the end of the day....Am I really the only one who feels that way?????

[ponygirl]

I dont' think anyone on this thread said they breed to stallions based on one score at all. Maybe I missed something.

[Dressage-ryder]

Nobody outright said that, but its clear from the posts some feel knowing a score is an important tool .
I hope for MOs that this can be talked about at the meeting and a happy medium can be found. I can't imagine why scores aren't posted, so hopefully asking will get that done.I have found the people with the BWP to be easy enough to work with so maybe the people in charge will take it into consideration.

[baywithchrome2]

Dressagryder posted: "In my opinion: choosing a stallion for any of my mares is based on 1) pedigree, 2) performance, 3) confo/gaits from a video and 4) get. In my opinion a single number such as "70%" doesn't add anything to the picture."

Risingstar posted: "In my opinion: choosing a stallion for any of my mares is based on 1) pedigree, 2) performance, 3) confo/gaits from a video and 4) get. In my opinion a single number such as "70%" doesn't add anything to the picture."

So, THEN WHY DO IT? That is what I keep asking! If the mare owner is STUPID for looking at scores that breeders SPEND SO MUCH MONEY to get, then why are we all out there running around to a zillion inspections, hanging on the 100 day stallion testing, foaming at the mouth to get foals inspected all for a score that YOU SAY DOESN'T MATTER! You say it is just one day. You say it only matters what the horse does performance wise and what the resulting offspring do. So WHY ARE YOU TAKING YOUR HORSES TO GET SCORED THEN????? What does it mean to american breeders? You guys are saying it means nothing. Do you realize that?

Just spend the money on putting the horse in sport!

Tri, thank you for pointing out what I've been thinking the whole time I've been reading many of these posts. Very interesting given the source of the comments :eek:

For me, the viewpoints of the judges do mean something, in fact, they mean a lot. In fact, I wish they would be far more candid than they are. It's all too easy to become barn blind. Breeders need guidance with stallion selection, with culling of their breeding stock. One might say that market forces would naturally do that but the American market is largely unsophisticated and reinforces that barn blindness because all they see is "by this popular sire" or "out of imported mare" or "has XYZ brand." Statements that in the end really mean nothing about the quality of the mare's offspring. As they say, the proof is in the pudding but again, there is a knowledge gap in the American market of what a quality horse/foal is and is not. This is then exacerbated by the philosophy of "breed it and they will come" by many... in my mind, all that does is proliferate a bad gene pool.

The judging panel, whether American or European, MUST have the tools necessary to reflect their professional opinion of the horse. If the measurement criteria is not effective at reflecting the strengths and weaknesses of the horse, then it needs to be addressed. :(

I think all of the registries have to realize that their serious breeders are craving as much candid, objective information as they can. Candy coating and making excuses about "it's just a day in the life of a young stallion" just doesn't cut it for me. As you said Tri, then what's the point of going through the exercise?

[Dressage-ryder]

I would hope that if the judges felt a stallion was no good they wouldn't pass it, crazy concept.... ;)
If a stallion has passed/been approved then from there on it IS the MO that needs to be educated about who they are breeding to. Personally I wish everyone did foal reports like the dutch. To me, that is helpful info. Is knowing the stallion got a 6 for legs really going to help you with your breeding choice? What if AHS gave him a 9 for his legs? How does that influence your choice?

How many times do you hear someone say after inspections" Oh, the foal was only 8 weeks old" "the runner was no good" "it was an off day". Blah Blah Blah. In the end the MO should be educated enough to know if the stallion is a right cross.I totally agree BWC, judges should be upfront and a little more honest with owners.. Maybe then the excuses would stop and the quality would be better.

I am not sure what "Very interesting given the source of the comments " refers to when quoting my comment ?

[baywithchrome2]

I took my mares to the inspections because I wanted the foals to have papers.. pretty simple. Two of our foals haven't been presented due to situations going on at the time. However, since the mares were inspected the foals were papered via mail.
I presented a filly this year to BWP because 1) The new owner wanted her to be presented 2) I do like to hear what the judges say on the foals
I'm not saying it is stupid/wrong to take horses to inspections- I am saying I don't breed to a stallion simply based on ONE score, I think there is more to the picture.I think its great when a stallion you like has also done super in inspections/testing, but its not the make or break point for me.

I don't want to know ONE score... I want to know all of the individual scores. A single, aggregated score is completely meaningless but the individual scores about front legs, hind legs, topline, neck, shoulder, back, etc., etc., are extremely valuable to me. I can not go and look at every stallion. It would be nice if the professionals' opinion of these simple, straight-forward conformation traits were available to the mare owners.

Is this the only component in the process of selecting a stallion for a mare? No, but it is especially nice when this tool is available b/c where else am I going to find this information?

You are right though- Performance means more to me that an inspection score at the end of the day....Am I really the only one who feels that way?????

Performance is extremely important to me, but I think we need to realize that we as American breeders are setting a serious double-standard in this country that is just one more hurdle for American breeders and one more barrier to stallion ownership in this country. If it's born here, it must be Superman in the performance ring. If it comes over from Europe, it can stand in a stall the rest of its life. :no: And the not-so-funny irony of it, we'll still give more mares to the imported stallion who has done relatively nothing than the American stallion who is doing well in the ring.

Performance is seriously expensive, especially in the H/J ring, but there is little return on that investment. Excluding the hunter market, has anybody figured out the correlation between number of breedings and success in the ring. I will use Capone as an example... could he do any better with Kyle King? How many mares is he getting? How about Coconut Grove? What is he getting...maybe 50 mares? How about Cotopaxi? How about Campesino? Chicardo just did really well in the 5 year old Young Jumper Finals...haven't even heard his name mentioned on this board.

Performance is important but what is even more important in my mind is an evaluation of the offspring. Just because a stallion can breed and jump a 5' fence, it doesn't mean he should be producing offspring. Is there a single US registry that looks at the quality of the offspring of their approved stallions? I know some say they do, but do they really? I've never seen a foal or offspring report from any of them. :(

[Dressage-ryder]

If you find one in the US that does the foal report ..PLEASE let me know.. I would happily give my money to a org. that is willing to follow up and do foal/offspring reports!

[Bent Hickory]

I would happily give my money to a org. that is willing to follow up and do foal/offspring reports!

Not for foals per se, but mare scores organized by sire:

http://www.hanoverian.org/mares/mare_stats.shtml

[tri]

To me, this is just another example of how different it is here in the U.S. versus in Europe. In Europe, breeders & riders can discuss the merits of a horse - good & bad - without so much hostility. Information is shared and people are educated. In Belgium, most belong to the BWP (I know there is now the Z Stud there but most are in the BWP) and the stallions & mares offspring are recorded in ONE registry. It is easy to see a larger sampling of the offspring versus in the U.S. where one stallion's offspring may be spread around to 8 different registries. So in Europe, maybe a pass/fail works because everyone can more easily see what is next in that horse's life.

In the U.S., information is NOT shared, what information we have is fragmented and very hard to track down, the performance is not tracked very well, breeders are at the mercy of the honesty of the owner of the stallion with very little information coming from the registry to support it. I've heard over and over again, research it before making a decision. Well, how would you suggest you "research" it? Read about it on the internet? Ha! Fly all over the country and Canada physically looking at the stallion? Decide to attend a zillion different registries foal inspections hoping for a glimpse of maybe ONE foal and then it isn't there because maybe the foal's owner's truck wouldn't start that morning of the inspection!!! Come on. It is a square peg trying to get into a round hole mentality and it isn't working in the American markets. We need to adjust the euro system to better address the needs HERE.

[Bent Hickory]

[I]t isn't working in the American markets.

I finally get your strategy: If you say it enough times, it will become true.

We need to adjust the euro system to better address the needs HERE.

Please, please, please tell us oh "wise one" -- HOW DO WE NEED TO ADJUST OUR SYSTEM?

[tri]

Bent Hick, your nastiness is at least consistent but you still aren't paying attention. Maybe take some hormones and it will improve your reading skills...or at least make you a less horrible person - you give your registry a BAD name.

[Bent Hickory]

[B]ut you still aren't paying attention.

I'm paying attention -- some might say too much for what it's worth. I read post after post after post from you outlining all the "problems," all the "troubles," all the "deficiencies," all the reasons "why 'it' doesn't work in America."

Yet, when I and others ask you to suggest a solution (or anything for that matter), we are met with vitriol and antagonism. The closest "solution" I've ever seen you offer is some obscure reference to "the British system." But no application of that system to America, no analysis or proposal for how that system will work in America, no discussion of how that system can be used to make our system BETTER. NOTHING!

So again, please tell us how to IMPROVE the system in this country rather than keep knocking it down. Why keep us all in the dark?

[LavenderFarm]

I second Bent Hickory and the floor calls for a vote.

[ahf]

Maybe take some hormones and it will improve your reading skills

You have absolutely no idea how hysterical that comment is.

Please tri, google is your friend. Use it. Really.

[chaotic mind]

You have absolutely no idea how hysterical that comment is.

Please tri, google is your friend. Use it. Really.

Actually a friend of mine had a woman's health specialist recommend estrogen as treatment for the loss of cognitive skills she has been experiencing.

[ahf]

That may be true. But that's not what I meant CM.

[Bent Hickory]

Actually a friend of mine had a woman's health specialist recommend estrogen as treatment for the loss of cognitive skills she has been experiencing.

Does it work for men?

[tri]

I have no idea who or what Bent Hick is and, after most of the posts from him/her, can't imagine anyone wanting to.

Bent Hick, you say you have read post after post of mine but apparently you missed all the numerous posts and very long threads where we all had discussions regarding how British Breeding could be applied here. We have also had long threads and numerous posts regarding what Canada is doing and how THAT system could be applied here. They are two VERY different systems - one consolidated under one identity and one required the numerous registries to apply and be "overstamped" under the British Breeding label. Both systems have an eye towards creating more cohesive power under a home brand image, pulling money and power together in an effort to create young horse shows, consolidate information on bloodlines, provide more member benefit, advertise and market youngstock/breeding stock to outside countries, identify top talented young horses and get them into the hands of local professionals, bring down the costs of bringing horses to market and providing in-depth analysis of what works in the local markets.

So, to keep from cut and pasting so many threads and so many posts, I would suggest, if the above thumbnail sketch still isn't enough for you, do a search for those topics. You could also go to the websites that were mentioned in those threads for further detailed information on how, what and why some of the things were implemented. Many are the same problems breeders have here.

Oh, and as it pertains to the original topic from this thread, Bent Hick, we were discussing using pass/fail versus a score for young BWP horses. My post was that pass/fail may work well in Belgium (as I posted) but may need to be "adjusted" as a score for the American markets (as I posted) because we don't have access to the ongoing information (as I posted) like they do in Belgium (as I posted). So....again.....how is that recommending, as you put it, "nothing", Bent Hick?

[chaotic mind]

Does it work for men?

only if you use enough to surpress the testosterone.

[Bent Hickory]

[Y]ou say you have read post after post of mine but apparently you missed all the numerous posts and very long threads where we all had discussions regarding how British Breeding could be applied here. We have also had long threads and numerous posts regarding what Canada is doing and how THAT system could be applied here. They are two VERY different systems - one consolidated under one identity and one required the numerous registries to apply and be "overstamped" under the British Breeding label.

The Canadian system required governmental action and I think it's safe to say that will not happen here. Further, it's not clear that the Canadian system will ultimately govern all warmblood breeding in Canada to the exclusion of the individual warmblood breeding registries.

With regard to the British system, how does it solve the multiple registry problem you often point to? As I understand it, this "overstamping organization" would be another organization of which the registries would be a part and to which I would have to pay fees (either directly or indirectly)? How does that reduce my costs?

Both systems have an eye towards creating more cohesive power under a home brand image, pulling money and power together in an effort to create young horse shows, consolidate information on bloodlines, provide more member benefit, advertise and market youngstock/breeding stock to outside countries, identify top talented young horses and get them into the hands of local professionals, bring down the costs of bringing horses to market and providing in-depth analysis of what works in the local markets.

All lofty and admirable goals, but nonetheless far too amorphous. Nearly every warmblood breeding society in this country does or says they do most or all these things. Fortunately for me, some do it far better than others.

What I'm pressing you for is "How do you make it work in this country?" For example, in your view, how would the organization accomplish just this one seemingly simple task:

[I]dentify top talented young horses and get them into the hands of local professionals

Specifically,

Who identifies the talented horse?
Who identifies the local professionals?
Who owns the horse?
Who makes the decisions regarding upkeep/training/care/etc?
Who pays for the horse's upkeep?
Who pays for the training?
Who pays for the showing?
Who's responsible for injuries to the horse?
Who's responsible for injuries to the others?
Where is the horse kept?
Who gets to make breeding decisions involving the horse?
Who decides when the horse has reached the peak of his abilities?
Who decides when its time to sell the horse?

It's not enough to say these are merely details. Details derail even the most well-intentioned plans.

Ultimately, I don't think these discussions have anything to do with the merits or problems of the warmblood breeding organizations in this country; rather they have everything to do with who we are as Americans.

[pwynnnorman]

I agree with tri: Most MO's are as silly as silly can be.

Which is exactly why I have come to concede that scores make perfect sense--NOT for anyone attempting to breed an exceptional animal, but rather for everyone trying to SELL what is hoped to be an exceptional animal.

What else can those silly women use to decide, after all? There's color, there's talk, there's flinging legs with head and tail high and so not representative in the least of real movement, there's pedigree which the silly ones don't really know but pretend to...;)

...But, seriously, AND with genuine respect: the reality is that scores are marketing tools--they are absolutely no more and no less than that, with one exception (see below). How they are used by the owner (to market) and how they are used by the buyer (to breed to the stallion or purchase the foal/mare) really is up to THEM. The registries just provide the tool.

This I have learned from these threads. It is not fair to blame the registeries for how their services are used. Nor does it make sense to blame them for serving. (Now, to criticize them for failing to prioritize the services their fees pay for--such as investing in marketing campaigns that would benefit their clients instead of preaching to the choir--that's justifiable in my mind.)

I think there is one exception to this, however. Another way a reasonable breeder looking to the future and at the bottom line might be to use scores (subtly) as a measure of precocity. Great scores for foals or young stallions indicate early maturity--or just degree of cuteness or showiness, both of which sell. Wisdom dictates that they will change, but does that really matter when it comes to business? Sell the baby, sell the stud fee, etc., etc. and let time do the telling, but do try to sell--EARLY and frequently. Precocity most certainly helps top breeders get babies sold, even if those babies are never heard from again (which doesn't mean they weren't really any good--it coudl simply mean that they ended up in hands that were content to do nothing very "visible" with them). Indeed, that lack of visibility of so much of what breeders produce after they sell is yet another reason to support the marketing usefulness of scores. A few years down the road, the score and the baby picture may be all the breeder has to continue developing/supporting his/her program's reputation.

[Which, of course, wouldn't be the case if the breeder could track the get. Makes one wonder just how far these discussions would go if a universal database were available as an alternative to the questions and criticisms which arise.]

[tri]

"Who owns the horse?
Who makes the decisions regarding upkeep/training/care/etc?
Who pays for the horse's upkeep?
Who pays for the training?
Who pays for the showing?
Who's responsible for injuries to the horse?
Who's responsible for injuries to the others?
Where is the horse kept?
Who gets to make breeding decisions involving the horse?
Who decides when the horse has reached the peak of his abilities?
Who decides when its time to sell the horse?"

HUH???? Where did I ever advocate an organization to syndicate horses???


"Who identifies the talented horse?
Who identifies the local professionals?"

British Breeding has an inspection program that judges, scores, tests and identifies youngstock. They bring in their international / professional level riders to look at the ones that exhibit international potential. This is instrumental in getting the best horses that are home bred into the hands of the top riders so they can buy them instead of continuing to go to Germany and buying what the Germans have identified as int'l potential. Maybe, Bent Hick, since you are so gung ho on the Hanoverians, you prefer that top American riders continue to go to Hanover and import, instead?

"The Canadian system required governmental action "

That was only to merge the two CANADIAN registries together. They started and mostly supported their two registries all by themselves. Now, I know there are some that still use some of the offshoot european registries, but as the Canadian ones have gained strength and have developed a world wide reputation of quality, that is happening less. The Canadian Warmblood folks actually have a PLAN on how to market CANADIAN WARMBLOODS to other countries including to the U.S.

[Bent Hickory]

[I]identify top talented young horses and get them into the hands of local professionals...

Apparently, "getting them into the hands of local professionals" means something significantly different to you than it does to me. I didn't realize your "plan" was so "simple." Just gather some professionals on a tiny island and have them look at some group of high quality horses. Hmmm, something tells me that won't work here .... oh well, just details...

The Canadian system required governmental action.

That was only to merge the two CANADIAN registries together.

So you agree that governmental action was required to make the system happen in Canada. Wow! We've reached a milestone! Incidentally, the merger of the registries was merely an outcome of the law as the law pertains to all animal breeding, not just warmblood breeding. It's not clear that, in the absence of the law, that the merger would have occurred. Nor is it so clear that this law pertains to the other warmblood breeding registries. While it may diminish such registries, only time will tell. I suspect the fittest will survive. But again, no such law is likely to be passed in the U.S.

So where do we stand? A system that allegedly works on an tiny island (which by the way is roughly 3/4 the size of Germany, ironically) and one that will require governmental intervention. Good plans!

[tri]

Bent Hick, as usual, what you are able to understand, is quite limited - maybe something to do with your attitude and your support of a system in Germany - which is what half the size of Texas maybe?

The Canadians were brand building long before the two organizations were put together. But I guess that is way too hard for you to grasp as well.

"Apparently, "getting them into the hands of local professionals" means something significantly different to you than it does to me."

If the AHS wasn't so arrogant - you along with the rest - maybe it would mean the same to you. But, I know, your organization is the one that called American warmblood breeders silly middle aged women, right?? Why listen to what the breeders are trying to tell you is a problem when you can so easily and with so much arrogance tell them it is something else? We see that same attitude when the Federation tried to investigate the 100 day testing and we see it from you regularly as well - really not much has changed.

"Just gather some professionals on a tiny island and have them look at some group of high quality horses."

Well, since one of the goals of British Breeding is to have their own top British riders riding British bred horses, where else would they met other than on their own tiny island where they bred their own horses? Bent Hick, you are sounding kind of silly.

How many of you American breeders would LOVE the opportunity for a sporthorse organization to gather together as many of the top American riders looking to purchase young horses to come and look at your homebreds with the breeding director telling those top riders that your horse that you bred is of international quality? Most breeders I know would fall all over themselves.......but me thinks you have a different objective - continue to have our top riders import from where you are loyal to which is Hanover. And, how many of you breeders would love it to be a regular event?

[Bent Hickory]

How many of you American breeders would LOVE the opportunity for a sporthorse organization to gather together as many of the top American riders looking to purchase young horses to come and look at your homebreds with the breeding director telling those top riders that your horse that you bred is of international quality?

Every one of us American breeders, including myself! No one is questioning WHY this is a good thing to do. I'm questioning HOW you can do this in AMERICA? Again, you're pointing at the goal without telling us HOW to make such an event happen in AMERICA.

It might surprise you that people in the euro registries have looked at this AND THE LOGISTICS ARE DAUNTING! You keep pointing out the fact that we are not Germany and we have to tailor a system that addresses our needs, our problems. One of these problems is our size. Then you turn right around and point at a country even smaller than Germany and propose it's system as a viable alternative. And then call me silly...? Sheesh!!

You sound like a politician making promises to a constituency that you can't keep. I'm betting the constituency here is much, much smarter than that.

[serenityfarm]

Does anyone know when they are going to post the details on the new stallions (BWP) that were approved this year? When will the stallion issue be published? I do not remember. Thanks!

[risingstarfarm]

Serenity Farm - the stallion owners have until November to get information submitted for the Stallion Directory.

Once that information is received, the website will be updated (within a short amount of time) and the directory will get underway.

We try to send out the new Stallion Directory as early as possible (Jan/Feb) so that mare owners can use the information to make breeding decisions.

Hope that answers your question!

[tri]

"One of these problems is our size. Then you turn right around and point at a country even smaller than Germany and propose it's system as a viable alternative. And then call me silly...? Sheesh!!"

Yes, Bent Hick, that is ONE of the problems. Obviously another countries way they do things aren't going to address ALL of the problems in OUR country - it is silly that you think one should or you won't listen to ANY of it.

We need to come up with some solutions on our own. After all, there isn't another United States of America to copy.

We need to identify each one of our problems and come up with solutions to solve each one. That is NOT something I see ANY of the registries doing including the AHS. The attitude from so many, including you, is that either, "there isn't any problem. The euro system is perfect for America, so don't change it" or "there isn't a solution so don't bother".

"It might surprise you that people in the euro registries have looked at this AND THE LOGISTICS ARE DAUNTING! "

The euro registries have looked at identifying int'l quality young horses and can't handle the logistics?? Aren't they looking at all the youngstock on an annual basis at inspections, mare performance testing, etc anyway? Or is it that they don't have the connections with sport - another problem I've pointed out - and our top riders don't see U.S. registry officials as a worthwhile source for identifying top talent. Top riders ARE going to europe and looking at the ones who are identified as top talent there.

I know that the people who can call them up and say, "there is a horse that you need to look at" and they will because they know there is a very good & REAL reason for saying that. Then there are others they will just blow off if they say that because they don't think the person knows an int'l quality horse from a mule.

"You sound like a politician making promises to a constituency that you can't keep. I'm betting the constituency here is much, much smarter than that."

So, where have I made any promises? All I am doing is trying to show people where the system is breaking down here - especially since so many of euro registry folks claim that it isn't. Then exploring possible ways of consolidating and empowering our system here. All you are doing is putting your hands over your ears and jumping up and down saying it won't work and you won't listen.

[Bent Hickory]

Please tell us how you propose "to gather together as many of the top American riders looking to purchase young horses to come and look at our homebreds with the breeding director."

How, Tri? How do you do this in America? One simple question. How?

I'm listening.

[Bent Hickory]

All I am doing is trying to show people where the system is breaking down here -

I agree that is ALL you are doing. I and others are asking that you provide viable proposals for fixing it in AMERICA.

[DownYonder]

Kathy, just exactly how do you suggest something like this be implemented? Who is going to start up and run this dream organization you advocate? Who would put up the initial funds to get this organization incorporated and get a charter and by-laws drawn up? Who would be the leaders and officials? Who would be the breeding director? Who would be the person who goes around "identifying top young horse talent"? Who would spend the vast sums it would take to market this to North American breeders/riders/trainers? Breeders who are relatively happy with their current organizations are only going to change their affiliation when your organization has proven that it is BETTER, so you are talking many years down the road before the majority of U.S. breeders come on board. Riders and trainers are only going to join if they are forced to, and once again, it would take many years of PROVEN SUCCESS before most of our trainers/UL riders start automatically looking to your organization when they are ready to shop.

As I see it, there are only two ways something like could come to fruition – 1) through government decree (which isn’t going to happen in America), or 2) someone dumps several million dollars into funding it for the approximately 7-10 years it would take to become THE mainstream sporthorse organization in North America. Of course, the individual(s) putting up those kinds of funds are going to expect to run the organization, and that would cause problems for many who do not want to belong to an organization that is tightly controlled by only a few powerful people at the top.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I agree that is ALL you are doing. I and others are asking that you provide viable proposals for fixing it in AMERICA.

This is why I believe we need an organization of North American Warmblood & Sporthorse Breeders run by an elected board of breeders, trainers, riders, judges, and vets. This is not to remove the 'designer labels" in my opinion, but it is needed to solve the problems in the US like the lack of a database. It needs to be individual membership, not registry membership. Pooling funds and ideas is why the AQHA is so incredibly effective. Joining another organization may cost a bit more, but the benefits would be tremendous. Power in numbers.

I do not feel this should replace the current registries, but as Breeders, we have no representation. Dressage people have the USDF, Eventers have the USEA, etc. We need something that does not leave us so fractured.

[DownYonder]

I think I have pointed this out before on a similar thread, but I thought that at one time, it was hoped that the North American Federation would become the umbrella organization that would help resolve the database and marketing issues. It seems the Federation has been nearly defunct for a few years, though. It does virtually zero marketing of itself and most breeders in N.A. aren't even aware that it exists. I heard through the grapevine a few years ago that it was fraught with internal bickering, but I don't know if that is still the case. Does anyone on this forum know if the members ever actually meet, and if so, what do they do? Do they have any projects in the works?

[Fairview Horse Center]

I think I have pointed this out before on a similar thread, but I thought that at one time, it was hoped that the North American Federation would become the umbrella organization that would help resolve the database and marketing issues. It seems the Federation has been nearly defunct for a few years, though. It does virtually zero marketing of itself and most breeders in N.A. aren't even aware that it exists.

This is why IMO it must be individual membership, not registry membership.

[tri]

"t would take many years of PROVEN SUCCESS before most of our trainers/UL riders start automatically looking to your organization when they are ready to shop."

And you think it would be so much better if it NEVER happens?

The fact is, most of us are already putting forth the effort and the money to try and do a lot of these things. But we are doing them in a fractured way, with no support and it is not very successful on an overall scale.

Downyonder, you say so many breeders are so very happy with the organizations. I don't think that is the case at all. I believe there is an intense amount of dissatisfaction in the marketplace. Just look at the thread on the $10,000 cost to get the average weanling and so many posts on where to market young horses and those long standing breeders who have posted that they have had enough and are getting out of the business.

The first thing that needs to be done is for the breeders to decide that they need to pull together to create something better, to actually CREATE the industry here in the U.S. - I hate this attitude of "set it all for me and then I'll decide if I like you or not" princess snob fest climate that so many seem to want to operate in. Until breeders start cooperating with one another and looking at the large picture, we can't even begin to implement the changes that would create something like what the QH people have done.....much less what the europeans have done.

[DownYonder]

" princess snob fest climate"

You know, Kathy, it is language like that that really turns people off from wanting to have anything to do with you. You have a long-standing habit of turning catty, vicious and vindictive any time anyone disagrees with you. You aren't going win over very many people with that kind of attitude.

[tri]

I think you were the one who was kicked off this BB for being snarky, not me.

All you and Bent Hick keep saying is how, how, how? (and not very nicely) and then put down everything that me and several others suggest. Neither of you have participated in the discussion with any suggestions or any sense of cooperation at all. Your poor attempts at torpedoing any discussions of change have not gone unnoticed by many posters here. If you don't like the subject matter or me, then why do you both jump in with both feet every time it comes up?

We need people who will work together for the good of the American markets - not the ones who have a vested interest in protecting foreign studbooks and foreign business plans.

[siegi b.]

Bent Hickory and DownYonder - You really should check the COTH archives for tri's old postings.... Not because they're worthwhile reading material, but because they will help you understand that Kathy has a history with circular arguments, deems herself expert on all matters having to do with European Warmblood registries, and does not want to be confused with facts.

Some things never change.... :-)

[DownYonder]

Bent Hickory and DownYonder - You really should check the COTH archives for tri's old postings.... Not because they're worthwhile reading material, but because they will help you understand that Kathy has a history with circular arguments, deems herself expert on all matters having to do with European Warmblood registries, and does not want to be confused with facts.

Oh, believe me - I am well aware of her posting history. ;)

[DownYonder]

I think you were the one who was kicked off this BB for being snarky, not me.

You just got lucky that I happened to get in Erin's crosshairs first on a day when she had a short furse.

At any rate - I don't give a fig about domestic vs.foreign studbooks / interests. You keep trying to make this into some sort of little war against European breeders, while all I care about is helping American breeders produce the best product possible. If we have to use European breeding stock and European breeding rules and European inspectors and European stallion licensing and approval policies to do it, then so be it.

[tri]

"I don't give a fig about domestic vs.foreign studbooks / interests."

Oh really?? Then why oh why do you always jump in with feet first, foaming at the mouth? I think you care very very much. You post replies to this subject more than anything else on this BB! But, as usual, it is never positive. BTW, do you even have a BWP approved anything?? I do.

[STF]

Are yall still at it????

[tri]

STF, I know you have a BWP stallion and it is refreshing to hear that you are for having the stallion's score as public information. Thank you for weighing in.