PDA

View Full Version : Will it die alone?



petitefilly
Sep. 28, 2007, 02:32 PM
I've been thinking about the rollkur debacle and would venture this guess. Rollkur as we see it today will end when Anky retires. It will go back to being the dirty little secret device some riders will use, but it will not be in the fore front of warm up arenas, and it will die because it's major voice will be unheard. This of course might take a decade, but I do believe all these training *ideas* have a shelf life, and a death by retirement of the *head*. The head dies, so goes the body.

Views?

ideayoda
Sep. 28, 2007, 03:00 PM
It had diminished after Uphoff, then it came back with a vengence with SJ. Now the minds eye view of what round is includes shortened in front and over tempo, and thats problematic for changing.

Unfortunately, it is traditional dressage which is probably dead and just not buried. Until riders really understand what a hh is to produce (modified balance which folds the hindlegs and lifts/arc/opens the throatlatch), there can be no renewal.

I wish that the rules would either be followed, or changed to suit the situation rather than be a facade for how they train. Then the two methods can each be held to their own standards.

Sithly
Sep. 28, 2007, 03:53 PM
Until riders really understand what a hh is to produce (modified balance which folds the hindlegs and lifts/arc/opens the throatlatch), there can be no renewal.

What does "hh" stand for? Somehow I feel like it's something really obvious that is slipping my mind at the moment.

Petstorejunkie
Sep. 28, 2007, 03:56 PM
half hault

Sithly
Sep. 28, 2007, 04:11 PM
Oh, duh! I knew it was something really obvious. Thanks.

Red Barn
Sep. 28, 2007, 04:32 PM
Unfortunately, it is traditional dressage which is probably dead and just not buried. Until riders really understand what a hh is to produce (modified balance which folds the hindlegs and lifts/arc/opens the throatlatch), there can be no renewal.

I wish that the rules would either be followed, or changed to suit the situation rather than be a facade for how they train. Then the two methods can each be held to their own standards.



WOW. This is a totally fascinating statement, and I'd like to hear more . . .

Please?

merrygoround
Sep. 29, 2007, 07:46 AM
I don't think traditional dressage is dead and unburied. There are still a few of us guerrilla force riders in the bushes carrying on the tradition, or trying. ;)

Daydream Believer
Sep. 29, 2007, 09:12 AM
I don't think traditional dressage is dead and unburied. There are still a few of us guerrilla force riders in the bushes carrying on the tradition, or trying. ;)

It's definitely not dead. There are still some very traditional trainers out there to be found but I will admit that finding one is very difficult as so many people are way overdoing the "deep" riding. I am truly blessed to have one who has really helped my poor horse who a LDR trainer had nearly ruined. My coach is also an R judge also.

grayarabpony
Sep. 29, 2007, 09:14 AM
It's not dead. And if I show and get beaten by hollow horses BTV, so be it.

Red Barn
Sep. 29, 2007, 03:34 PM
The part of IDEAyoda's comment that I find most intesting is the idea that 2 completely separate and distinct types of "dressage" might currently exist.

This seems to me to represent the true state of affairs better than the theory that extreme training methods are just a short-cut way of getting something resembling "classical" results faster.

IDEAyoda's phraseology confused me a little, but it sounded like she was suggesting that these differences might eventually be officially recognized, and TWO disciplines might actually result . . . ? (Kind of like WP horse evolving out of western performance horses, or competition hunters evolving out of field hunters, perhaps?)

Very thought-provoking notion!

sm
Sep. 29, 2007, 04:26 PM
The part of IDEAyoda's comment that I find most intesting is the idea that 2 completely separate and distinct types of "dressage" might currently exist. !

All you have to do is look at dressage's long history, what was tested (start with the first Olympic tests in 1912, where the horse was required to jump over a barrel moving towards horse/rider) and what was valued. Or go back two centuries earlier and see what was valued. There are at least two different brands of dressage -- I think brands is more accurate than "2 completely separate and distinct types of "dressage' "


IDEAyoda's phraseology confused me a little, but it sounded like she was suggesting that these differences might eventually be officially recognized, and TWO disciplines might actually result . . . ? (Kind of like WP horse evolving out of western performance horses, or competition hunters evolving out of field hunters, perhaps?)

If you're talking FEI brand of dressage the earlier comment is correct, the FEI rules often do not match what is rewarded at the top international level. If you're talking the Classical brand of dressage, that is often not rewarded at the top international FEI level -- in favor of more flash and less emphasis on pure or classic textbook execution of the movements.

On a horse putting in an FEI test on the regional level, like my horse, I found the USA judges to be fair and reasonable, meaning we can get the job done well enough with classical-type training on a non-Warmblood.

Red Barn
Sep. 29, 2007, 04:37 PM
Yes, sm, that's just what I mean. (And I think of those barrels often!)

If you prefer the word "brands," thats fine, but the question remains: are the brands moving further and further apart? (I think so, myself.) And if so, when and where do they part company for good?

Right now there seems to be a lot of confusion about goals as well as methods. Hard to clear that up as long as the two brands are muddled up together.

sm
Sep. 29, 2007, 04:45 PM
I think it's up to us --- as the consumer.

I was at the Virginia Horse Center a couple days ago watching the Arabian Nationals (even though I'm a thoroughbred person through and through) and I was speaking with a rep of USDF, USDF had a booth there.

We were agreeing on the importance of the All Breeds Program on the core strength of keeping dressage healthy, I believe I used the phrase "organically sound." Or maybe she was not agreeing, but nodding along in the right spots to keep me a happy athlete **grin** astutely realizing she was surrounded at an non-WB national championship. Seriously, I really believe she and I had the same take on it.

Anyway, USDF does offer us the option (encouraging all of us in the all breeds program) not to drink the SJ kool aid.

Dalfan
Sep. 29, 2007, 04:51 PM
Anyway, USDF does offer us the option (encouraging all of us in the all breeds program) not to drink the SJ kool aid.

But how difficult is it to move people away from the SJ/AvG version of dressage when they are awarded at the highest levels? Extreme hyperflexion, in the warm-up, should be severely penalized, but I don't see that happening.

sm
Sep. 29, 2007, 04:58 PM
there should be a video of the warm-up, and the warm-up should count somehow. It's going to take a lot of uproar to get the FEIs attention to deal with this, jmho. It;'s a small world, and I think the FEI has some registry alliances that clouds their agenda. After all, how hard is it to read their own rulebook?

TeddyRocks
Sep. 29, 2007, 05:07 PM
Am fascinated by this thread. Unfortunately my pea-brain (at the moment anyway) has some issues with a lot of the abbrevieations used... Is there a thread somewhere that lists the common and not so common ones for a person that is just getting into these forums??? I haven't asked before because I'm pretty sure some of them are obvious, but any help will be great.

TIFN (that's it for now),

Lori

IE: LDR; BTV; OP; i know there are lots more... just can't think right now... THANKS in advance!

ideayoda
Sep. 29, 2007, 05:32 PM
ldr=low deep round, op=original poster, btv=behind the vertical

Dalfan
Sep. 29, 2007, 05:33 PM
And don't forget - the dreaded and evil RK = Rollkur, ie Hyperflexion. Here's a sample that I posted in another thread;

http://www.hippson.se/cldoc/18900.htm

Scroll down to AvG.

Dalfan
Sep. 29, 2007, 05:40 PM
Technically speaking, aren't the TD/Stewards supposed to police the warm-up's. I had heard of the one TD who started to issue a card to AvG for excessive/prolonged "bending" at a particular show. Wasn't that TD forced to back down because a higher-up intervened on SJ's behalf?

petitefilly
Sep. 29, 2007, 06:06 PM
This is my major gripe these days, I've been to four World Cups now, and the Anky et al. do win, and they are not riding Classical Dressage with capital letters. They ride a style I would call near to saddle seat, it has flash and dazzle without the proper body structure on the horse. The horse has his head high, his back flat, nearly static, the legs fling, and the hocks are worked behind the point of the butt. Anky is the example everyone brings up, but the entire team is worthy of the same team collective. My saddest moment ever watching dressage was seeing Gribaldi, and how Edward Gal is riding this horse. :( Beyond horrid. If you want a real eye opener go to Youtube and see the horse on the first night Edward Gal rode him, [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuVWEJ4_LCE], the horse ws light, up in front, moving well behind, and trying his darnest to be a great dressage horse. Edward has killed this in Gribaldi. Edward gives his hand in this tape!!!! Watch him today ride the horse. I'd like to rip his hands off his arms when he rides today. (Don't get me started! )

So yes, there are two dressage ideals to day, the high stakes dressage, and classical. No one wants to work round? What is up with this? Is it too hard? Is it too easy to slip out of the rankings if your horse does not flip his toes? Go hollow 99% of the time? I dread the rollkur people they destroy backs on their horses, they say they are stretching the back. I say BUNK, it's a system to have the horse move his legs more and not his body.

ideayoda
Sep. 29, 2007, 06:11 PM
I have to say from watching realtime that and do not agree with that analysis. The curb was horizontal and mouth was gaping in each step of the extensions (although the noseband was strapped shut), the piaffe was high in the hindlegs, it was over tempo, and not laterally flexible. But a very beautiful horse.

Red Barn
Sep. 29, 2007, 06:30 PM
Anyway, USDF does offer us the option (encouraging all of us in the all breeds program) not to drink the SJ kool aid.

But what's to prevent us from training our TBs to perform a la Brand B? Seems like you could squash the life out of ANY breed if you felt so inclined.

I think establishing REALISTIC criteria for judging "correctness" is what's really at issue, regardless of breed or venue.

And BTW (by the way) I like IDEAyoda's comment about "opening the throatlatch" as a defining factor in determining brand . . . too bad she's being so stingy with her input!

AiryFairy
Sep. 29, 2007, 07:03 PM
But how difficult is it to move people away from the SJ/AvG version of dressage when they are awarded at the highest levels? Extreme hyperflexion, in the warm-up, should be severely penalized, but I don't see that happening.

Y'know, this whole rollkur thing has upset me so much I had to register and post. My last horse died ten years ago, I am well out of the loop now, but friends are still in it, and they've sent me video after video of Anky winning, isn't she great. NO. She's not great, her methods are vile, rollkur is vile, her rides are a far from correct as they can be and still be in the ring, and it goes against every principle of classical dressage I was taught. My instructor, if she was dead, would be rolling over in her grave, but she's not dead so that's a bad analogy...LOL.

Why are the judges rewarding it? When I had my last horse I left a barn because the resident trainer couldn't get on any horse unless his head was cranked to his knees in drawreins, overflexed, and incapable of being on the bit properly. But at the time there were still 'big' riders who were riding correctly. There are now, Balagur is lovely, as is every other horse trained by Theodorescu. And yet horses with broken necks that are behind the bit,struggling to breathe and compressed with their legs flinging all over the place are rewarded with wins.

I think it's up to everyone who cares about this kind of abuse to address the FEI loudly and force them to follow their own rule book, with some cojones about making it stick. It's cruelty, in the end, and it shouldn't be allowed.

You may now return to your regular programming... ;)

rcloisonne
Sep. 29, 2007, 07:37 PM
I think it's up to everyone who cares about this kind of abuse to address the FEI loudly and force them to follow their own rule book, with some cojones about making it stick. It's cruelty, in the end, and it shouldn't be allowed.

Here are some suggestions (not mine but I agree 100%):


The elimination of the lower levels of dressage performed in the dressage ring, and/or creating larger rings for the less balanced horses.

Increased attention to riding on the forehand, and the disqualification of riders that fail to meet the collection level, as well as, the balance level in the appropriate dressage class (0 points!).

Any horse that puts his head past the vertical any time during the performance should be disqualified in any level (no points!).

No severe riding aids! If your horse is willing, you don't need them. You are not on the battle field!

Deeper surfaces in the riding rings (see most TB racetracks for sufficient depth of riding surface). A horse with good impulsion and cadence will not kick out any dirt, nor will he trip (in front or rear), whereas an off-balance (sore) horse will tend to do one or both of them, which shows his incorrect going.

The propagation of training dressage horses in open spaces (on grass fields, etc.). The dressage horse should not work in the limited ring more than once or twice per week.

Making riding with and without saddles mandatory (blanket with girth only - do less and do it better!) in the lower levels of dressage. This will eliminate the "fake" riders, thus improving the higher riding levels in dressage, which the rest of the dressage folk look up to.

Approving the suitability of horses for riding purposes by setting limits on height and weight (as well as their relationship to each other), which will lead to more appropriate and suitable breeding of horses for modern purposes.

Any special shoeing, other than simple flat, light riding plates, should be disallowed, no pads, no bars, no wedge pads, etc.

Any horse that enters the dressage ring sore should be excluded from performance for life and the rider should be expelled from the dressage society. Same thing if there is any foreign substance found in the horse's blood.


If you own, ride or train a dressage horse that gets lame from his work, you should be downright embarrassed and ashamed of yourself. Don't blame the trainer or the rider; you own the horse and only you are responsible!

The practical purpose of dressage, for the modern use of riding horses, remains the same as in the past: improving the safety and longevity of the horse for riding purposes, as well as his reliability in the particular service for which he is being used. This is of course is not practiced by the "modern competitive dressage" since the fools often injure their horses in the process, which of course contradicts the whole purpose of dressage.

http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles2/dressage_abuse.htm

egontoast
Sep. 29, 2007, 07:59 PM
What is to stop any of you from training your horses the way YOU think they should be trained? Why do you send your horses for training with people you revile? Don't you check them out first? Are any trainers good enough ?

Why not train your horses 'perfectly' and get out there. What horses are out there trained classically to your satisfaction and yet shunned by the judges? Names please. Have you considered that the judges can only judge what is there?

If you can produce a better, more classically trained upper level horse, get to work and do it! No doubt that's what they are saving the 90+ scores for.

AiryFairy
Sep. 29, 2007, 08:34 PM
What is to stop any of you from training your horses the way YOU think they should be trained? Why do you send your horses for training with people you revile? Don't you check them out first? Are any trainers good enough ?

Why not train your horses 'perfectly' and get out there. What horses are out there trained classically to your satisfaction and yet shunned by the judges? Names please. Have you considered that the judges can only judge what is there?

If you can produce a better, more classically trained upper level horse, get to work and do it! No doubt that's what they are saving the 90+ scores for.


Goodness, perhaps I shouldn't feed you, that's almost a trollish response, but OK. Go here.
http://www.horsedances.net/MySpacePages/Torino2007EuropeanChampionships.html
Watch Whisper. Watch Balagur. And then watch Anky - in fact do side by side screenshots of Balagur and Salinero in piaffe, and see if you can spot which one is perfectly classical and which one is a complete phony. Look at the extensions and see which one actually lengthens the whole frame and which one just compresses the front end and flings the front legs. Hint Balagur's correct, Salinero is a mess - hollow, flat, no lengthening of frame at all.

AiryFairy
Sep. 29, 2007, 08:41 PM
Here are some suggestions (not mine but I agree 100%):

I'm not sure I agree with all of the suggestions, or that they would be practical (riding without saddles, not at my age, uh uh) but I totally agree to some supervision in the ring and warmup, and someone has to be the first to say "STOP, that's not allowed", but no one's willing to offend the 'big names', no matter how incorrect they are. It's gotten well out of hand.


http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles2/dressage_abuse.htm

That guy is a hoot - I love his 'pull no punches' attitude, although I am a woman and I suspect women would be offended at him calling it all our fault, but I get what he's trying to say, and it's that if small people like Anky can't ride ginormous horses without ruining them with pulleys, levers and cruelty, they shouldn't ride at all.

egontoast
Sep. 29, 2007, 08:57 PM
yeah, he's hilarious just like all men who detest women. Maybe he slaps his wife around on the weekends, too. harhar. A small example, I recall worse ones but I can't waste my time there looking


I can understand and bear a woman being vain, silly and unreasonable, but when a man acts like a woman it is just plain hard to bear for anyone,

PS if you don't think he's a raving maniacal blowhard, go find his page on homosexuality /sexually confused men.

As for the videos, I will try to watch them but may not be able to (on dial up.)

petitefilly
Sep. 29, 2007, 09:19 PM
I have to say from watching realtime that and do not agree with that analysis. The curb was horizontal and mouth was gaping in each step of the extensions (although the noseband was strapped shut), the piaffe was high in the hindlegs, it was over tempo, and not laterally flexible. But a very beautiful horse.


LOL :) Tell us how you feel! :) Again, it was Edward riding, he was the reason for the problems you note, and the horse? How was he? Trying? Need of more correct aids? Watch a later tape, like the last World Cup and tell me what you see in the horse today. Nothing better, far worse, floating gaits are gone. :( This makes me sad and I do not even know the horse. The last I heard they were retiring him from the team due to "problems". Yeah, a broken down horse is not something you need to keep on the team. Pardon me, but sure hope someone with some kindness and education gets to have this horse; he deserves better. JMHO.

AiryFairy
Sep. 29, 2007, 09:44 PM
yeah, he's hilarious just like all men who detest women. Maybe he slaps his wife around on the weekends, too. harhar. A small example, I recall worse ones but I can't waste my time there looking

As for the videos, I will try to watch them but may not be able to (on dial up.)

If you actually listen to what he's saying, it makes perfect sense and it's not sexist nonsense. He's saying that women ruin horses that are too big for them to ride out of sheer ego, and now the men are doing it for the same reasons. Did you actually look at the photos he posted?

Well here's one on YouTube -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPJGEzI3aIc&mode=related&search=
curled up behind the bit the whole time, going straight up and down with the hind legs in piaffe, no extension whatsoever.
Here's Balagur -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaiVtHS6VrI
stop it at 2:38 and 4:02 and look at the engagement in piaffe, that's what it's supposed to look like and there's no comparison with the garbage that Anky produces. Aside from Balagur's rider sticking him with the spur every step which makes him swish his tail, that was a lovely, correct ride.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaiVtHS6VrI

slc2
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:03 PM
are you going to make it your personal mission here to convince everyone that they should like this utter psychopath or else you will call them names? guess what? i'm allowed to have a different opinion from you, and i think the guy's a psychopath. you're wasting your breath trying to get everyone here to agree with you and like this sociopath.

"lovely correct ride" (except for the spurs every stride).

ah...you mean, that the only fault you found in the entire ride was the rider's spurs...you...you're joking, right? i mean...seriously? for real? ok, it's a white horse and white is pretty....but....man oh man....you are serious?

petitefilly
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:04 PM
If you want to see how Gribaldi is coping later, see video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvyy99JF3_E

Not a happy duo, @58 sec, @ 1.55, @ 3.36, @4.46. The horse is fighting back. He can't deal with the hand, and he fights. If you watrch a current video you will see the horse is defeated. He lacks all sparkle, and joy in his work. This was a year after Edward got the horse, now two more years have passed and the horse is being retired due to problems. Unsaid problems, but I think we can all guess what they are. Defeat in a horse is ugly. This is horrid. The number two rider in Holland, who is Anky's top student. Frankly, Gribaldi is a prime example of a horse who was crippled by the work they subscribe to.

And Coby is not far behind.

My first take on this is Anky will retire and everyone will say how they hated doing rollkur. It will be maligned as much as big bits with barbs, and five inch spurs. When she goes, it won't be soon enough for me, and rollkuring horses will die with her and her gang of thugs.

AiryFairy
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:14 PM
PS if you don't think he's a raving maniacal blowhard, go find his page on homosexuality /sexually confused men.

First of all, you didn't quote him completely, or reference the appalling picture that accompanies his comment:
"I can understand and bear a woman being vain, silly and unreasonable, but when a man acts like a woman it is just plain hard to bear for anyone, as much as for this horse, which is obvious from this pick. The man has the hands of a bricklayer, to which the horse's mouth testifies."

I would not call him a raving maniac - opinionated, and in most cases extremely accurate, and one of the few who dares speak out against horse abuse in very plain language, that's what I'd call him.

AiryFairy
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:25 PM
If you want to see how Gribaldi is coping later, see video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvyy99JF3_E

Not a happy duo, @58 sec, @ 1.55, @ 3.36, @4.46. The horse is fighting back. He can't deal with the hand, and he fights. If you watrch a current video you will see the horse is defeated.

That is one sad piece of video. It's almost like bullfighting, where you root for the bull to avenge being stabbed senseless. I was kind of hoping that horse would bolt right out of the ring.

Sithly
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:33 PM
I thought several statements on that page were appallingly sexist, but the guy has other good things to say. Can't we just stir through the shite and pick up the pennies?

appychik
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:46 PM
The elimination of the lower levels of dressage performed in the dressage ring, and/or creating larger rings for the less balanced horses.

I am a lower level dressage rider and I ride **shock** a lower level, WP bred and trained Appaloosa gelding. To me, dressage means a lot. I love it. I don’t see why we need a larger arena. He’s not a massive horse (16hh) and can very easily maneuver in a small or standard dressage arena without issues.


Increased attention to riding on the forehand, and the disqualification of riders that fail to meet the collection level, as well as, the balance level in the appropriate dressage class (0 points!).

I do agree with this. However, again, my horse is on the forehand quite often. Some things are hard to change. If he falls on his forehand while in competition, we’re penalized. We learn from our mistakes, but for a horse who for 10 years of his 17 years of life had only known to be on the forehand, it’s hard to change overnight. I don’t think though that I should be eliminated/disqualified because of this.


Any horse that puts his head past the vertical any time during the performance should be disqualified in any level (no points!).

Agree.


No severe riding aids! If your horse is willing, you don't need them. You are not on the battle field!

Agree.


Deeper surfaces in the riding rings (see most TB racetracks for sufficient depth of riding surface). A horse with good impulsion and cadence will not kick out any dirt, nor will he trip (in front or rear), whereas an off-balance (sore) horse will tend to do one or both of them, which shows his incorrect going.

Yep. Agree again.


The propagation of training dressage horses in open spaces (on grass fields, etc.). The dressage horse should not work in the limited ring more than once or twice per week.

Well, during the winter, in Minnesota, are we suppose to stop riding? Cause the only other option is riding in our indoor arena (oversized small arena). Can’t very well ride outside when we have feet of snow…and I’m not riding in the arena, which is cover in snow/ice/rock hard ground/etc. Ideally, yes, you should vary your work area. Sometimes though, this just isn’t feasible.


Making riding with and without saddles mandatory (blanket with girth only - do less and do it better!) in the lower levels of dressage. This will eliminate the "fake" riders, thus improving the higher riding levels in dressage, which the rest of the dressage folk look up to.

I love riding bareback. Truly riding, not just goofing off. Sure, wouldn’t mind doing this. Just as I’d love to be able to show without stirrups – wish that was legal.


Approving the suitability of horses for riding purposes by setting limits on height and weight (as well as their relationship to each other), which will lead to more appropriate and suitable breeding of horses for modern purposes.

True. I agree. But, impossible to do – can’t regulate all those breed societies/registries. I’m kinda partial to the non-traditional dressage horse anyways. It’s fun having a challenge to ride and still outriding those WBs. I love it.


Any special shoeing, other than simple flat, light riding plates, should be disallowed, no pads, no bars, no wedge pads, etc.

I don’t agree at all. There are some horses that have medical issues that need corrective shoeing. So, is this guy saying that if you horse has ringbone/navicular/old fracture/etc. you shouldn’t ride them? What if they are sound with corrective shoeing? Is that wrong? If so, there are plenty of horses out there that should be competing, period. My guy, before we figured out it wasn’t navicular (vet mis-diagnosed), was in bar shoes and sound. Without the bars, he was lame. But he was happy to work. Is that wrong?


Any horse that enters the dressage ring sore should be excluded from performance for life and the rider should be expelled from the dressage society. Same thing if there is any foreign substance found in the horse's blood.

So, if my horse is sound in warm-up but starts getting stiff and sore while in the arena, he’s eliminated for life? H*ll no! That’s so not right. Turns out that was an issue that happened a year ago. Gus came up lame in the arena, worked out of it (but we almost got called by the judge) but then came up lame after our ride. Found out his stifle was bothering him again – working on the hard ground for just 15 minutes without boots really bothers him. I scratched from our next class that day.

I do agree about the foreign substances. Unless it’s documented (like bute), animals & people should be using performance enhancing drugs. It’s just wrong, with a capital W.

If you own, ride or train a dressage horse that gets lame from his work, you should be downright embarrassed and ashamed of yourself. Don't blame the trainer or the rider; you own the horse and only you are responsible!

Nope. Don’t agree with this 100% either. So, it’s my fault that my horse hyperextended his stifle? Even when we knew it happened in the pasture? I suppose it’s the BO fault that he was turned out with the boys… and as an owner of a horse, I don’t really have a lot of say as to where he spends his time outside. So, I should be embarrassed that my horse was feeling good, galloping around and landed wrong, re-injuring his stifle? I feel bad, but I’m not embarrassed. Sh*t happens.

The practical purpose of dressage, for the modern use of riding horses, remains the same as in the past: improving the safety and longevity of the horse for riding purposes, as well as his reliability in the particular service for which he is being used. This is of course is not practiced by the "modern competitive dressage" since the fools often injure their horses in the process, which of course contradicts the whole purpose of dressage.

Agree. We’ve lost the true connection of what dressage really is. Yada Yada Yada.

http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles2/dressage_abuse.htm

So, yea, there’s a lot that I don’t agree with. I enjoy dressage. The basic fundamentals are great for my horse – they really helped keep him going these last few years when we weren’t sure if he’d ever be sound again. But, having a “rule” that says if he’s lame he’s eliminated for life? Or he can’t have corrective shoeing to make him sound? That’s just plain old bullsh*t. I don’t agree with that at all. Maybe that’s just my ignorance coming into play – but that’s not fair. I can’t help it, nor can anyone, that my horse has soundness problems. He can’t be kept in a bubble. Or if he was, he’s be a down right bear to be around. He’s already one of the crabbiest horses at the barn, but that’s who he is. He’s not a love-y horse… he’s pretty standoffish and that’s what he prefers. Doesn’t like being doted upon.

AiryFairy
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:51 PM
I thought several statements on that page were appallingly sexist, but the guy has other good things to say. Can't we just stir through the shite and pick up the pennies?


To me they sounded sexist, and he seems to paint with a broad brush, but when you really listen to what he's saying, that makes sense to me. I hate that vanity, ego and shortcuts have taken over where common sense and humane riding have gone. When someone is 5'2" and they buy the biggest warmblood they can find, and can only control him if he's strapped down in drawreins or by standing on the curb rein, that's what he means when he says that women are the problem, because in the end, the horse suffers for that vanity, and what you get is nothing resembling proper movement or training.

Sithly
Sep. 29, 2007, 11:30 PM
To me they sounded sexist, and he seems to paint with a broad brush, but when you really listen to what he's saying, that makes sense to me. I hate that vanity, ego and shortcuts have taken over where common sense and humane riding have gone. When someone is 5'2" and they buy the biggest warmblood they can find, and can only control him if he's strapped down in drawreins or by standing on the curb rein, that's what he means when he says that women are the problem, because in the end, the horse suffers for that vanity, and what you get is nothing resembling proper movement or training.

Right. And all men with tiny dicks buy SUVs and that's why we have global warming. :lol:

Seriously, though, I agree that strapping on more gadgets and adding more leverage isn't going to fix any problems. But believe me, women certainly do NOT have the market cornered on that. You see just as much of that crap, if not more, in the western sports. With men. On small horses.

I really don't think you can blame women for this phenomenon. Or rather, you can blame the majority of dressage riders, who happen to be women, while acknowledging that correlation does not equal causation.

~Freedom~
Sep. 29, 2007, 11:38 PM
The elimination of the lower levels of dressage performed in the dressage ring, and/or creating larger rings for the less balanced horses.

We will just start at Medium then?

Increased attention to riding on the forehand, and the disqualification of riders that fail to meet the collection level, as well as, the balance level in the appropriate dressage class (0 points!).


Since there is no lower levels where people can learn this shouldn't be a problem.


Any horse that puts his head past the vertical any time during the performance should be disqualified in any level (no points!).

I sure hope any horse doesn't want to get rid of that fly that may be annoying them.

No severe riding aids! If your horse is willing, you don't need them. You are not on the battle field!

And the next time someone critiques your picture you can always say he could have done a better. I feel for riders that have good horses but are a tad lazy.

Deeper surfaces in the riding rings (see most TB racetracks for sufficient depth of riding surface). A horse with good impulsion and cadence will not kick out any dirt, nor will he trip (in front or rear), whereas an off-balance (sore) horse will tend to do one or both of them, which shows his incorrect going.

I haven't seen too many trippers. Some horses are fine boned and surfaces too deep are a hindrance. Some of those assumptions are erroneously based.


The propagation of training dressage horses in open spaces (on grass fields, etc.). The dressage horse should not work in the limited ring more than once or twice per week.

We will practice the half pass only twice a week on young horses. Some movements when being worked on a young or green horse require a flat suitable ground.

Making riding with and without saddles mandatory (blanket with girth only - do less and do it better!) in the lower levels of dressage. This will eliminate the "fake" riders, thus improving the higher riding levels in dressage, which the rest of the dressage folk look up to.

I thought the "lower levels" are to be eliminated. That would mean this is to be done at Medium and higher?

Approving the suitability of horses for riding purposes by setting limits on height and weight (as well as their relationship to each other), which will lead to more appropriate and suitable breeding of horses for modern purposes.

And just WHO sets these measurements. I am sure that horses like Lenden Gray's horse Seldom Seen would be eliminated right away!

Any special shoeing, other than simple flat, light riding plates, should be disallowed, no pads, no bars, no wedge pads, etc.

If it had to travel over the surfaces stated earlier then some horses may need something so they don't sink.

These are the most insane set of rules anyone could devise.

AiryFairy
Sep. 29, 2007, 11:47 PM
Right. And all men with tiny dicks buy SUVs and that's why we have global warming.

No they don't, they buy Porsches... ;D

TeddyRocks
Sep. 30, 2007, 01:17 AM
Y'know, this whole rollkur thing has upset me so much I had to register and post. My last horse died ten years ago, I am well out of the loop now, but friends are still in it, and they've sent me video after video of Anky winning, isn't she great. NO. She's not great, her methods are vile, rollkur is vile, her rides are a far from correct as they can be and still be in the ring, and it goes against every principle of classical dressage I was taught. My instructor, if she was dead, would be rolling over in her grave, but she's not dead so that's a bad analogy...LOL.

Why are the judges rewarding it? When I had my last horse I left a barn because the resident trainer couldn't get on any horse unless his head was cranked to his knees in drawreins, overflexed, and incapable of being on the bit properly. But at the time there were still 'big' riders who were riding correctly. There are now, Balagur is lovely, as is every other horse trained by Theodorescu. And yet horses with broken necks that are behind the bit,struggling to breathe and compressed with their legs flinging all over the place are rewarded with wins.

I think it's up to everyone who cares about this kind of abuse to address the FEI loudly and force them to follow their own rule book, with some cojones about making it stick. It's cruelty, in the end, and it shouldn't be allowed.

You may now return to your regular programming... ;)

So... I would be interested in seeing how the US trainers stack up... Anyone want to start a list??? Classical dressage trainers vs rolkur style trainers, and how they fare in competition... nationally or internationally. Anyone that has seen some of these trainers close up or just warming up at shows, it would be interesting to note. AND if this has been talked about before, I apologize in advance...

rcloisonne
Sep. 30, 2007, 08:24 AM
ah...you mean, that the only fault you found in the entire ride was the rider's spurs...you...you're joking, right? i mean...seriously? for real? ok, it's a white horse and white is pretty....but....man oh man....you are serious?
What is serious is that spurs are employed far too often at the upper levels. Take a look at almost any GP ride. Appalling! See those tails wringing and swishing? This is a direct response to spurs which appear to be applied almost constantly. Is this what everyone wants to see? It so reminds me of the lame horses in a WP class people cheer on.

These UL horses are NOT "dancing"; they are exhibiting (in a very noticeable way to anyone with any knowledge of equine body language) extreme resistance to the "aids". Most are also in a cranked "headset" frame and are not reaching for the bit. Get rid of the spurs, get rid of the curb bits. Ban rollcur. Train the horse with respect - if you can.

rcloisonne
Sep. 30, 2007, 08:32 AM
So, yea, there’s a lot that I don’t agree with. I enjoy dressage. The basic fundamentals are great for my horse – they really helped keep him going these last few years when we weren’t sure if he’d ever be sound again. But, having a “rule” that says if he’s lame he’s eliminated for life? Or he can’t have corrective shoeing to make him sound? That’s just plain old bullsh*t.
I don't think the guy is saying never to employ corrective shoeing. Believe it or not he is coming from a farrier's perspective. I understand his point to be lame horses should not be asked to compete. And like it or not, horses that need wedges, pads, bar shoes, etc. are not really sound.

~Freedom~
Sep. 30, 2007, 08:50 AM
I don't think the guy is saying never to employ corrective shoeing. Believe it or not he is coming from a farrier's perspective. I understand his point to be lame horses should not be asked to compete. And like it or not, horses that need wedges, pads, bar shoes, etc. are not really sound.


Some perfectly sound horses may have pads simply because their hooves could be more sensitive to bruising. This is a preventative measure not a cover up. I could point out a use for all of the others ..again as preventatvie or corrective measures.

Sadly not all horses are born perfect which it seems to you are the only ones that would be allowed to compete.

Please tell me ( a picture would be nice) of "the" perfect horse. Temperament, feet, conformation, size...everything.

egontoast
Sep. 30, 2007, 08:56 AM
replying to rcl..

That's ridiculous. If it's a mechanical issue which can be helped by a shoe or wedge so the horse is completely comfortable without medication, you would rather have this horse sent to pasture (in pain) or be euthanized?

It's a bit like the person with one shorter leg who is comfortable with a lift in one shoe or the person who has no more foot pain when they are fitted for orthotics. Nothing wrong or cruel about that. It allows the horse or person to excercise , keep fit and healthy without pain.

Like it or not, these 'rules' would just result in more horses going to slaughter.

rcloisonne
Sep. 30, 2007, 09:31 AM
replying to rcl..
It's a bit like the person with one shorter leg who is comfortable with a lift in one shoe or the person who has no more foot pain when they are fitted for orthotics. Nothing wrong or cruel about that. It allows the horse or person to excercise , keep fit and healthy without pain.
But the majority of folks like that wouldn't stand much of a chance in athletic competition against those without such defects. It is a good analogy ;)


Like it or not, these 'rules' would just result in more horses going to slaughter.
And that would be a shame. No competition, no ribbons, no food, eh?

rcloisonne
Sep. 30, 2007, 09:41 AM
Some perfectly sound horses may have pads simply because their hooves could be more sensitive to bruising.
A horse that can't be sound on groomed surfaces should be weeded from the gene pool, IMO.


This is a preventative measure not a cover up. I could point out a use for all of the others ..again as preventatvie or corrective measures.
Bull.


Sadly not all horses are born perfect which it seems to you are the only ones that would be allowed to compete.
Umm, I didn't write those suggestions but agree with them for the most part. No, there are no perfect horses but basic soundness should be a requirement for competition. Call me a radical. :rolleyes:


Please tell me ( a picture would be nice) of "the" perfect horse. Temperament, feet, conformation, size...everything.
See above. This is what breeders should be striving for but there are far too many who have no clue regarding proper conformation, including good feet.

slc2
Sep. 30, 2007, 11:20 AM
rclois, i think what you missed was my question. are you seriously saying that the ONLY thing wrong with that performance was the spurs, 'spurs are used too much in competition these days', and everything else was very good? that's what you said, did you mean it? you can't see ANY of the other issues with this ride? you - you're kidding, right?:no:

AiryFairy
Sep. 30, 2007, 12:46 PM
What is serious is that spurs are employed far too often at the upper levels. Take a look at almost any GP ride. Appalling! See those tails wringing and swishing? This is a direct response to spurs which appear to be applied almost constantly. Is this what everyone wants to see? It so reminds me of the lame horses in a WP class people cheer on.

These UL horses are NOT "dancing"; they are exhibiting (in a very noticeable way to anyone with any knowledge of equine body language) extreme resistance to the "aids". Most are also in a cranked "headset" frame and are not reaching for the bit. Get rid of the spurs, get rid of the curb bits. Ban rollcur. Train the horse with respect - if you can.

Someone on YouTube made the bizarre comment that Helgstrand's horse was swishing her tail in time to the music, so there's a lot of ignorance out there about what's correct and what's not - including among the so-called pros. I'm totally amazed at the constant poking with the spur - it's every damn step. When I learned to ride you asked for a canter by dropping your outside hip and just barely moving the leg back. Watch them all in every transition, swing that leg back and JAB. My last horse was schooled to 4th level - he could do two tempis easily, and they did not require a stab in the side at every step. As what's-his-name says on horseman pro, why the need of the spurs if the horse is willing? Every time the horse is pushed forward, he sucks back behind the bit - because that's the only freedom from it he can find.

Sithly
Sep. 30, 2007, 03:52 PM
But the majority of folks like that wouldn't stand much of a chance in athletic competition against those without such defects. It is a good analogy ;)


So you're saying it's self-restricting? Then you don't need a rule for it.

In fact, I think a few of those proposed rule changes are unnecessarily restrictive. It seems you are advocating closing off dressage for the people who want to compete for fun on the horse they have. I know a lot of people, myself included, who enjoy riding dressage and showing their backyard horses. What is wrong with that? If the horse gives a poor performance (not collected enough for level, not balanced, btv, etc.), that should be reflected in the score, not forbidden by additional rules.

sm
Sep. 30, 2007, 04:11 PM
But what's to prevent us from training our TBs to perform a la Brand B? Seems like you could squash the life out of ANY breed if you felt so inclined.

Well, gallows humor here: the TB would stop you. Either the TB darn near kills you getting you off his or her back (remember when Anky broke her leg on a WB) or unfortunately the rider stays on and ruins the TB's mind, rider/trainer ending up with a "crazy" TB. TBs simply don't tolerate the yanking and cranking the way the WBs do, sterotypically speaking of course.

I think as a consumer (is student a better word?) of dressage, all you need to do is look at the long history of dressage, and the fashions of the times and what was valued at each point in history, and one can sort it all out easily enough.

That is of course, assuming you're tone deaf to what your horse tries to tell you. Just looking at their facial expressions in some of the rollkur photos can break my heart --- eyes really are mirrors of the soul.

~Freedom~
Sep. 30, 2007, 04:29 PM
Quote:
~Freedom~
Some perfectly sound horses may have pads simply because their hooves could be more sensitive to bruising.

A horse that can't be sound on groomed surfaces should be weeded from the gene pool, IMO.

Never said anything about groomed surfaces. There are a lot of thoroughbreds that will fit my description so I must assume you hate TBs for some reason. Sounds like a breed elitist to me. Believe it or not some people like certain breeds because it fits them ( size or personality) and the center of the universe does not revolve around what you feels will past muster.

Quote:
This is a preventative measure not a cover up. I could point out a use for all of the others ..again as preventative or corrective measures.
Bull.

Maybe you have led a sheltered life but people that have had experience with all types of horses would not reply as you have.

Quote:
Sadly not all horses are born perfect which it seems to you are the only ones that would be allowed to compete.
Umm, I didn't write those suggestions but agree with them for the most part. No, there are no perfect horses but basic soundness should be a requirement for competition. Call me a radical. :rolleyes:

Basic soundness and a perfect horse can be as far apart as the US and China.

Quote:
Please tell me ( a picture would be nice) of "the" perfect horse. Temperament, feet, conformation, size...everything.
See above. This is what breeders should be striving for but there are far too many who have no clue regarding proper conformation, including good feet.

See what above. I see no picture image posted by you. As you don't me so just how do you "assume" I don't know good conformation. A little presumptuous of you to make such broad statements to a bunch of strangers on the net. I could be a world renown breeder of top international dressage horses or a simple classical dressage rider.

ideayoda
Sep. 30, 2007, 05:27 PM
The fly in the ointment for 'revival' of traditional riding....how many riders have the time and the will to spend hours on the lunge, w/o stirrups, and to assume responsibility for the way the horse goes????

appychik
Sep. 30, 2007, 05:30 PM
Quote:
~Freedom~
Some perfectly sound horses may have pads simply because their hooves could be more sensitive to bruising.

A horse that can't be sound on groomed surfaces should be weeded from the gene pool, IMO.

Never said anything about groomed surfaces. There are a lot of thoroughbreds that will fit my description so I must assume you hate TBs for some reason. Sounds like a breed elitist to me. Believe it or not some people like certain breeds because it fits them ( size or personality) and the center of the universe does not revolve around what you feels will past muster.

Quote:
This is a preventative measure not a cover up. I could point out a use for all of the others ..again as preventative or corrective measures.
Bull.

Maybe you have led a sheltered life but people that have had experience with all types of horses would not reply as you have.

Quote:
Sadly not all horses are born perfect which it seems to you are the only ones that would be allowed to compete.
Umm, I didn't write those suggestions but agree with them for the most part. No, there are no perfect horses but basic soundness should be a requirement for competition. Call me a radical. :rolleyes:

Basic soundness and a perfect horse can be as far apart as the US and China.

Quote:
Please tell me ( a picture would be nice) of "the" perfect horse. Temperament, feet, conformation, size...everything.
See above. This is what breeders should be striving for but there are far too many who have no clue regarding proper conformation, including good feet.

See what above. I see no picture image posted by you. As you don't me so just how do you "assume" I don't know good conformation. A little presumptuous of you to make such broad statements to a bunch of strangers on the net. I could be a world renown breeder of top international dressage horses or a simple classical dressage rider.

You know, I don't always agree with you Freedom. But today, this afternoon, I do. Because the way that this guy (the one who wrote these rules, not the one who posted them) states it... all horses should, theorectically, go barefoot. No shoes, nada. We all know that this isn't always the case. Unfortunately not all horses can go barefoot. So, therefore to keep them sound and happy, we shoe. Is this wrong? Seems to me that the guy thinks so, even if he's coming from a farrier's perspective.

Regardless, I don't see what's wrong with us "backyard horse owners" competing in dressage on our fugly, non-warmblood horses. I know I'll always get docked for things like "lacks impulsion" or "on the forehand" or "resisting" but, I don't exactly ride a push-button WB.

Hmm. I think that rollkur should die a quick death... as much as I'd like it to be a long, slow death, I really don't want those horses suffering.

Oh, and about those spurs. I didn't watch the ride in question, but I know what you're talking about. However, my horse's tail swishes -but it's not out of agitation. It's (I believe) out of the loose-ness of his back. All good dressage horses I've seen, even at lower levels, have that swish to their tail. It's just a nice back and forth movement - following their hind legs. You can tell when a horse is agitated... that tail really starts whipping (at least that's what Gus does when he's PO'd).

Red Barn
Sep. 30, 2007, 06:01 PM
Well, gallows humor here: the TB would stop you. . . . TBs simply don't tolerate the yanking and cranking the way the WBs do, sterotypically speaking of course.

Interesting point, sm.

I'm a life-long TB fan myself, but I don't know if you're right because I've never tried cranking one into a pretzel!

Beyond that, I gather you're saying that dressage would have stayed "pure" without the advent of the WB?

I'll have to think about that.

TeddyRocks
Sep. 30, 2007, 06:16 PM
So... I would be interested in seeing how the US trainers stack up... Anyone want to start a list??? Classical dressage trainers vs rolkur style trainers, and how they fare in competition... nationally or internationally. Anyone that has seen some of these trainers close up or just warming up at shows, it would be interesting to note. AND if this has been talked about before, I apologize in advance...

So, I'll try this another way. What US trainers/riders would you or wouldn't you ride with and why. I guess I'm mainly talking about our top competition riders, as they are the ones that all will know. Would like to know some opinions of training styles. If it doesn't get to the OP's breakdown of rolkur vs classical, fine, but who would you ride with or who WOULDN'T you ride with, and why?...I will put a name out there. Michelle Gibson... I've never met her or come close to riding with her, but when ever I've seen her ride in person, her horses all look happy and willing, and she gets good results. Any other opinions? THANKS!

rcloisonne
Sep. 30, 2007, 07:23 PM
Quote:
Never said anything about groomed surfaces. There are a lot of thoroughbreds that will fit my description so I must assume you hate TBs for some reason. Sounds like a breed elitist to me. Believe it or not some people like certain breeds because it fits them ( size or personality) and the center of the universe does not revolve around what you feels will past muster.
Actually, I am currently considering a lovely TB. Unlike most, she has good feet. She wouldn't be under consideration otherwise. You know what they say, "no foot, no horse". :)


Maybe you have led a sheltered life but people that have had experience with all types of horses would not reply as you have.
I'm no expert but think I know more about hoof pathologies and remedial shoeing than most.


Basic soundness and a perfect horse can be as far apart as the US and China.
Really? Sounds more like an excuse as to why you think it's acceptable to compete on a horse who isn't sound without special orthotics. The guy who wrote that is a very experienced and knowledgeable farrier. I'm sure his experience in that area is greater than yours or mine.


See what above. I see no picture image posted by you. As you don't me so just how do you "assume" I don't know good conformation. A little presumptuous of you to make such broad statements to a bunch of strangers on the net. I could be a world renown breeder of top international dressage horses or a simple classical dressage rider.
My, aren't we touchy. I didn't post a pic because there are no perfect horses. Who ever said there were? Are you just trying to throw up a smoke screen because your precious beliefs have been challenged? There are sound horses around though, if you look hard enough. ;)

To appychick. Nowhere in that list of suggestions does it mention all horses (or any for that matter) should be barefoot. Please read for comprehension.

appychik
Sep. 30, 2007, 07:35 PM
To appychick. Nowhere in that list of suggestions does it mention all horses (or any for that matter) should be barefoot. Please read for comprehension.


Perhaps he doesn't say that straight out, but honestly I don't see what's wrong with corrective shoeing. My older horse needed bar shoes for about three years. Now, he's sound barefoot. Did I like the bar shoes? No... cause extra headaches with him always having to wear bell boots, the shoes were custom made, etc... but he was sound with them and therefore he could lead a life he enjoyed. Otherwise, he was lame every step of the way. Is that fair to him to be lame, or have corrective shoeing so he's sound and happy? We didn't compete when he was lame - but with the corrective shoes we certainly did. Was there anything wrong with that? No one ever said anything about it... and I never heard negativity with bar shoes.

I do read, by the way, for comprehension. I read a lot. I like to read. I guess I should have stated that it seems like he would perfer horses barefoot versus shoes... especially if he doesn't believe in corrective shoeing. Heck, for the most part horses with shoes need shoes for corrective work. Shock!

Aggh. I happy to think that this guy's views will never see the light of day in USDF competitions. Some of his thoughts are good food for thought but for the most part it is b*llshit. Rollkur needs to die and other then that, I'm all for corrective shoeing if it'll make the horse happy and sound. Never heard any farriers (and I've used some very good ones, including the master farrier we had in GA who did the bar shoes) or vets say that corrective shoeing was wrong.

Pony Fixer
Sep. 30, 2007, 07:52 PM
A horse that can't be sound on groomed surfaces should be weeded from the gene pool, IMO.

Well, since almost half of the competing population are geldings, you'll get your wish!

Normally, I could give a rip what someone's background is. However rcloisonne, I'd really like to know what experience you have that makes you such an expert. You seem to know a lot about farriery, conformation, and of course, dresage training. I have no problem with you having utopian ideals (and striving for them), but you have to understand it isn't reality, right?

I live in the real world. We do what we can.

appychik
Sep. 30, 2007, 08:17 PM
Well, since almost half of the competing population are geldings, you'll get your wish!

Normally, I could give a rip what someone's background is. However rcloisonne, I'd really like to know what experience you have that makes you such an expert. You seem to know a lot about farriery, conformation, and of course, dresage training. I have no problem with you having utopian ideals (and striving for them), but you have to understand it isn't reality, right?

I live in the real world. We do what we can.


Well said Pony Fixer!

~Freedom~
Sep. 30, 2007, 08:49 PM
Actually, I am currently considering a lovely TB. Unlike most, she has good feet. She wouldn't be under consideration otherwise. You know what they say, "no foot, no horse". :)

Surprised you even consider a TB as that is not what most would go for in dressage. ( This would be one of the "throwaway" horses according to your mentor).


I'm no expert but think I know more about hoof pathologies and remedial shoeing than most.

Thanks for acknowledging you are no expert.


Really? Sounds more like an excuse as to why you think it's acceptable to compete on a horse who isn't sound without special orthotics. The guy who wrote that is a very experienced and knowledgeable farrier. I'm sure his experience in that area is greater than yours or mine.

I need no excuses as my horse requires nothing special, but there you go again making assumptions I ride a cripple. And the guy that wrote this rubbish has prejudices that color his thought process.


My, aren't we touchy. I didn't post a pic because there are no perfect horses. Who ever said there were? Are you just trying to throw up a smoke screen because your precious beliefs have been challenged? There are sound horses around though, if you look hard enough. ;)


Not touchy at all. It was YOU that said look above. Now if you meant the stars and wishful thinking then you would be right and since they don't exist and these non-existent horses are the only ones that seem acceptable to you and your mentor why don't we just scrap his whole theory as unworkable and be done with it.

AiryFairy
Oct. 1, 2007, 12:11 AM
I need no excuses as my horse requires nothing special, but there you go again making assumptions I ride a cripple. And the guy that wrote this rubbish has prejudices that color his thought process.

You know, it's not rubbish. Look deeper. It's blunt, idealistic maybe to a fault, but what he says is not said out of anything but compassion for the horse - something that is clearly missing from todays 'professional' arena. What he's saying, in a very broad and blunt way, is that certain kinds of horses (in fact, many kinds, long-backed, heavy warmbloods, drafts, etc.) are not built for classical dressage, and our attempts to make them work that way create horses that physically CAN NOT COPE, hence his comment about no special shoes to prevent lameness that will be caused by a downhill or heavy-fronted horse being dumped on his forehand all the time, especially with something like rollkur being inflicted on them.

I think to say he is a purist is an understatement, and an idealist who would rather not see anyone ride if they cannot do it properly without harming their horse. That would put a lot of amateur riders out of the ring, so it's unrealistic - people will ride what they have, but I think there also has to be some common sense on the part of the rider to pick a suitable horse, and if he's not suitable for the job without all kinds of special shoes and straps and crank nosebands, then what, exactly, is the point, except to cause the poor beast misery in the interest of 'competition'?

slc2
Oct. 1, 2007, 06:22 AM
well, there are a few statements that are geared to get disenfranchised, dissatisfied people over to his side, kinda like antisemitism in post world war 1 germany. so you then swallow the rest of it, which is trollop. the only 'classical' thing i see there is classical cult psychology.

SandyUHC
Oct. 1, 2007, 12:14 PM
Here are some suggestions (not mine but I agree 100%):

The propagation of training dressage horses in open spaces (on grass fields, etc.).

Other than requiring deep footing (Can you say suspensory injury? I knew you could!) this propagation suggestion worries me the most. Do you propose to progagate these training dressage horses by seed or by cutting? I agree that grass horse gardens would be preferable to hydroponic methods but don't you worry that we will have a glut of training horses when perhaps more resources should be directed toward propagating higher level horses? Then again, there will probably be difficulties in obtaining cuttings from FEI horses.

Sigh. Seems so simple otherwise, doesn't it?

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2007, 01:18 PM
I didnt like the white horses test.

The guy on the horse freaking out looks pissed.

I'm tired of hearing the shoe debate. Especially when its a warmblood owner whose horse has crooked legs and an ugly head. Since I have an Arabian I think Ill add a rule about anything with a head the size of a buick shouldnt show!

Riding without a saddle doesnt proove anything. IF your pinching you can do it in your sleep.

I think we are all vain!

Dalfan
Oct. 1, 2007, 02:22 PM
I could be wrong, but I took the posters' rules as sort of a joke, literally. They are fairly draconian and impossible to enforce. Didn't think anybody was that much of a hardarse. :)

petitefilly
Oct. 1, 2007, 03:56 PM
Ahhh-attention. This thread sure has taken a beating. Is there a whole heck of a lot of you with AD? Is it too hard to keep on topic? Are your hidden agendas ready and able at the drop of a coin?

Hell, I'm all for free speech, but no one cares, at least me, whether your horse is barefoot, shod, or walking in tap shoes. I posted about the death of rollkur eventually happening due to impart a likelihood of Anky retiring. Who the hell cares what shoes are legal in dressage? Start a thread saying "no shoes-your opinion", please. :)

I am not trying to be snide, only pointing out that keeping a topic would be nice for the readers when they want to read about *A* topic, not agendas, and muck raking.

SandyUHC
Oct. 1, 2007, 04:15 PM
Ahhh-attention. This thread sure has taken a beating. Is there a whole heck of a lot of you with AD? Is it too hard to keep on topic? Are your hidden agendas ready and able at the drop of a coin?



There probably ARE a lot of AD people here. You are certainly not deriding the Attitudinally Despondent, are you? Or perhaps you were referring to the Altitudinally Disensaddled? At any rate, you shouldn't be surprised that most hidden agendas will out themselves for money and if you don't approve of thread beating then don't join in. Meanwhile, let me know where that forum is where the OP decides exactly what can be discussed in a thread because I don't want to go there accidentally.

Red Barn
Oct. 1, 2007, 04:22 PM
Does "Altitudinally Disensaddled" mean habitually falling off a really tall horse?

I like that.

rcloisonne
Oct. 1, 2007, 04:24 PM
You know, it's not rubbish. Look deeper. It's blunt, idealistic maybe to a fault, but what he says is not said out of anything but compassion for the horse - something that is clearly missing from todays 'professional' arena. What he's saying, in a very broad and blunt way, is that certain kinds of horses (in fact, many kinds, long-backed, heavy warmbloods, drafts, etc.) are not built for classical dressage, and our attempts to make them work that way create horses that physically CAN NOT COPE, hence his comment about no special shoes to prevent lameness that will be caused by a downhill or heavy-fronted horse being dumped on his forehand all the time, especially with something like rollkur being inflicted on them.

I think to say he is a purist is an understatement, and an idealist who would rather not see anyone ride if they cannot do it properly without harming their horse. That would put a lot of amateur riders out of the ring, so it's unrealistic - people will ride what they have, but I think there also has to be some common sense on the part of the rider to pick a suitable horse, and if he's not suitable for the job without all kinds of special shoes and straps and crank nosebands, then what, exactly, is the point, except to cause the poor beast misery in the interest of 'competition'?
AiryFairy, you are the only one who gets it. The rest rather remind me of the ASB enthusiasts on another thread trying to justify gingered butts and tail surgery. Bravo. :D

egontoast
Oct. 1, 2007, 04:33 PM
I posted about the death of rollkur eventually happening due to impart a likelihood of Anky retiring

It's hard to comprehend what that sentence is supposed to 'impart' (note correct usage of 'impart') but I think I get your muddled drift and it still makes no sense. Maybe that's why people veered off your topic.

It's a silly premise. I guess most other people know by now that Anky is not the only person using this method . Roll eyes here. Whatever you or I may think of it, there were people before her and there will be people after her who will use it.

Maybe you just can't remember when Rembrandt was on the top of the heap.

rcloisonne
Oct. 1, 2007, 04:44 PM
Surprised you even consider a TB as that is not what most would go for in dressage. ( This would be one of the "throwaway" horses according to your mentor).
My mentor! :lol: :lol: :lol: I found this guy's website on the internet and was fascinated. Put off a bit initially by his machismo, but the more I read the more I realised he is absolutely right about the state of dressage today. Rollkur is just one of the long list of abusive techniques rewarded in the show ring. Will it go away? Not as long as those who employ it are rewarded and the majority who watch it (and cheer it on) remain ignorant.

I am not a dressage rider, BTW, and have no expectations for this mare other than she develop into a good riding horse, one who is soft, supple, responsive and obedient. If I wanted fancy gaits I'd buy a Saddlebred ;)

But seriously, you really don't need to be a DQ to recognise abusive training methods and gaffy riding. THE END.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2007, 04:51 PM
Hmmm Rcloi You dont compete and yet you give your opinion on which horses should!! Maybe a decision that directly affects you would matter more (be given more thought).

slc2
Oct. 1, 2007, 05:13 PM
somehow, anyone who doesn't agree with certain people winds up getting called names. on some planet, people are free to see a situation differently, and aren't called insulting personalized names for it.

i can see how the op might think that RK would decline when its most prominent practitioner retires. that's not all that unreasonable a thing to think and that kind of thing has happened in other parts of reality.

i don't agree with it, but i don't see any reason to call the person insulting names for considering it as a possibility.

OP, it's possible, and no one can predict the future. the practice may have less visibility after anky retires.

thing is, the internet isn't the only thing in the world. how people view something on the internet bulletin board, doesn't always influence how the world turns.

for example, someone who shall remain nameless thought it was a great idea to train dressage horses by making them gallop like mad, and abruptly slamming them to a halt, by whatever means necessary, and doing that over and over. someone else thought it was great to train dressage horses by making them halt, on the aids, hind legs tucked under, motionless for quite long periods of time.

there are still people who do those things, but yes, the days when that was copied like mad by everyone have slowly evaporated.

a prominent person who uses some technique does tend to popularize it broadly for a while, and the technique DOES have less exposure after that period.

egontoast
Oct. 1, 2007, 05:25 PM
Slc, do you ever self reflect a little and realize that other people may have valid and individual opinions that do not agree with your own?

No, of course not. Carry on.

SandyUHC
Oct. 1, 2007, 05:48 PM
Egon, again you disappoint. Have you no opinion on my reservations about propagation of dressage horses???? (Post #64.) You of all people should be concerned. Or at least amused.

~Freedom~
Oct. 1, 2007, 06:40 PM
My mentor! :lol: :lol: :lol:

As good a description as any.


I am not a dressage rider, BTW, and have no expectations for this mare other than she develop into a good riding horse, one who is soft, supple, responsive and obedient. If I wanted fancy gaits I'd buy a Saddlebred ;)Somehow I suspected as much. Most wannabes or don't know anythings are the worst at spewing directions THEY think should be taking when they act like blindfolded drivers.:eek: BTW what you want from your horse IS DRESSAGE so you really don't know anything about this subject. Good dressage is NOT about fancy gaits.

A Saddlebred? Sounds like you are going to have your hands full dictating to the big lick people on just HOW they are supposed to be riding THEIR horses.:yes:

Feel free to start a thread with your list of directions for them in Off Course. I am sure the rest of COTH will sit back with popcorn and beer.

Hony
Oct. 1, 2007, 06:49 PM
http://www.myhorsefly.com/read/9

Interesting article

slc2
Oct. 1, 2007, 06:53 PM
"do you ever self reflect a little and realize that other people may have valid and individual opinions that do not agree with your own?"

a highly ironic question, since you spent quite a bit of time in this thread, and many others, insulting people and calling them names whenever they don't see it the same way you did.

class
Oct. 1, 2007, 06:55 PM
Egon, again you disappoint. Have you no opinion on my reservations about propagation of dressage horses???? (Post #64.) You of all people should be concerned. Or at least amused.

the word propagation is used correctly in that sentence. perhaps that's why no one found it as witty as you did?

Eq3nStar
Oct. 1, 2007, 06:55 PM
Right. And all men with tiny dicks buy SUVs and that's why we have global warming. :lol:

ROTFLMAO!

But seriously- the crux of the website is HE has a tiny dick ;)

AiryFairy
Oct. 1, 2007, 07:28 PM
I posted about the death of rollkur eventually happening due to impart a likelihood of Anky retiring.

Unfortunately Anky teaches, Anky is copied, Anky has 'bred'. So unless the FEI clamps down on that kind of abuse, then her retiring isn't likely to affect anything. Then again, if her pissed off horse bolts one more time and does something serious to her, maybe that will make people think twice about the consequences of cranking their horse's heads to their knees.

AiryFairy
Oct. 1, 2007, 07:50 PM
http://www.myhorsefly.com/read/9

Interesting article

Big load of bollocks IMO. Making excuses for using rollkur to control an unruly horse? If you have to torture a horse to control him, well, that's a bit defeating the purpose of self carriage, isn't it? Anyone who knows what classical dressage is supposed to look like shouldn't be licking Anky's boots calling her successful. Stupidest comment of all..

"Dressage success today is successful training—and successful risk."

Indeed. Risking the horse's wellbeing, that's not what I call success.

Eq3nStar
Oct. 1, 2007, 08:50 PM
:rolleyes:
I find it interesting a self-professed non-dressage rider has so many opinions on dressage. Perhaps you should peddle vitriol about a subject upon which you have more than a passing acquaintance?
I rarely agree with Slick- not that she cares if anyone agrees with her, mind you- but in this case she's right on.

petitefilly
Oct. 1, 2007, 08:55 PM
It's hard to comprehend what that sentence is supposed to 'impart' (note correct usage of 'impart') but I think I get your muddled drift and it still makes no sense. Maybe that's why people veered off your topic.

It's a silly premise. I guess most other people know by now that Anky is not the only person using this method . Roll eyes here. Whatever you or I may think of it, there were people before her and there will be people after her who will use it.

Maybe you just can't remember when Rembrandt was on the top of the heap.

I made a typing error, impart, was supposed to be "in part". I did not proofread the paragraph. My bad.

I remember Rembrandt. I remember a great deal. <rolls eyes>


I also do not care about your agendas either.

You may consider me out of the picture. I do not care to discuss feet.

Hony
Oct. 1, 2007, 09:00 PM
I just realized that I have a very, very, untrained eye for dressage.
I really like Rembrandt :D

Edited to say: I'm starting to think that some people here just don't like winners.

AiryFairy
Oct. 1, 2007, 09:18 PM
:rolleyes:
I find it interesting a self-professed non-dressage rider has so many opinions on dressage. Perhaps you should peddle vitriol about a subject upon which you have more than a passing acquaintance?
I rarely agree with Slick- not that she cares if anyone agrees with her, mind you- but in this case she's right on.

Since you didn't quote, it's hard to know whom you're addressing. If it's rcloisonne, I too am puzzled why someone who thinks "fancy gaits" have anything to do with dressage. If that was directed at me, since you posted right after mine, you'd be quite wrong. Just for the record...

AiryFairy
Oct. 1, 2007, 09:26 PM
Edited to say: I'm starting to think that some people here just don't like winners.[/QUOTE]

Some people don't like cheaters, especially when it harms the innocent horse who didn't choose to have his head held down by force.

slc2
Oct. 1, 2007, 11:14 PM
Actually, there are some cases in which people simply do NOT 'like winners'. Isabel Werth said it best, 'Everyone hates a winner'.

it IS quite true that some people will do anything to win. forcing the horse to work too hard for its level of fitness, being overly rough with corrections, punishing with no way the horse can do anything to make the punishment stop, jugging, putting on wierd faddy shoes, you name it, it's been done.

People DO pick on the winners far more. And judging by the emotional diatribes on this bulletin board, Isabel is very, very right. I would not say so if the words weren't so emotional and hateful, if they were simply, 'i see this, i see that, this was scored 5, in saw the head was tilted, perhaps the points were lost there, what do others think?'

but they aren't. They are 'it's awful', 'it's terrible', 'judges suck' , 'the winners suck', 'competition sucks', 'no one knows how to do an extended trot any more', on and on and on blah blah blah blah blah. like a bunch of crabby old women.

Every rider, even the best, have faults, so does every horse. But they ALSO have good points. ALl of them. if you only see bad, you just don't have a compete eye.

Rembrandt had many things that he did very, very well. However, some people really picked on him because of the way he piaffed, sort of like the russian horses, without dropping his croup. He didn't have a lot of fold in his knees, either.

Piaffe is actually quite individual, as is passage, with each horse's versions of this looking a little bit different. The judges have to be able to allow for individual differences, while still making sure the most basic requirements are there.

The judge CANNOT give the highest marks to the horse with the highest knees in the piaffe. The judge CANNOT give the highest marks to the horse with the lowest butt, either.

The most basic requirement for a piaffe, actually, is NOT that it is very sitting, NOR that the knees are lifted high. Those are requirements, yes, but the FIRST thing the judge HAS to see, BEFORE he cares about anything else, is that it is a TROT. a perfectly diagonal gait in which the front diagonal foot does not move even one split second before the hind, when the hind does not come to the ground even a split second before the front foot. To a degree that most observers, even quite knowledgable ones, usually cannot even detect.

The most fundamental things are that the horse trots, and to do that, he has to be balanced. Tbat means he does not have his forelegs slanted back or his hind legs too close to his front legs(read DeCarpentry's book, 'Piaffe and Passage' if you you believe the 'elephant on a ball' is a good piaffe, instead of an evasion and loss of balance, which is what it really is), or his hind legs looking like they are gripping the ground and apart, or his body swaying from side to side (the kiss of death for a good score), or even the slightest step backward, if the hoofprint is even 1/2 inch further back, or his hind legs just wide apart.

AFTER that comes sit. AfTER that comes let's see how high the knees are. As Dane Rawlings brought out so well in 'Dressage Priority Points', the judge first looks for very, very basic things. For Jaap Pot, and for any good judge, the very first thing is rhythm. Rhythm. Not sit, not height of knees, not first. First rhythm. The first thing a good dressage trainer tells a sstudent in every single lesson he ever gives, 'establish your rhythm first'.

However, the judges dealt with it like they are supposed to - the horse lost points for not having the sit, and for not lifting the knees, but he gained points - fundamental points - for the perfectly rhythmic steps, perfectly diagonal, regular steps, perfectly trot steps (not one split second did one foot land or lift even slightly before another diagonal foot), and for the unbelievably smooth transitions. In short, he looked like he could stand there all day, just piaffing and piaffing and piaffing. He compensated for the areas in which he was not strong, by being better in other areas.

The horse was the most unbelievably light footed animal that ever set foot in a dressage ring. It was more like watching a deer than a horse. i think he was the most beautiful horse i ever saw.

Rembrandt was also an extraordinarly timid animal, and Nicole got him when she was just a child, I think 9, and rembrandt was just 2. He ran back to the barn many many times with her. She grew up with him. She learned from him. Because he was so extraordinarly tense in the back, she used flexing his neck in the warmup to loosen up his muscles. Nicole was friends with a lot of jumper people and that was a common technique with warming up jumpers. She was very heavily criticized for it.

Nicole was also an extraordinarly sensitive owner who even sought out Linda Tellington-Jones to assist in undestanding her horse's fears and helping to build his confidence. She used food rewards and lots of confidence building with him. Most of all, she was an extraordinarly quiet rider, and was able to keep herself amazingly quiet to allow her horse to perform and to not upset him or make him feel trapped.

she did not flex the horse's neck to 'subdue' him. there was no way to 'subdue' him. when he wanted to run away, he ran away. there was no 'subdueing' him; rollkur doesn't prevent a horse from running away. a horse can run away with his chin on the rider's knee, or his own chest. rollkur nor nothing else will stop that. he could be tied up to a post with a halter and rope, if he wanted to go, he went. something would break.

I have a film of her doing the most amazing quadrille with i think 11 other professional riders at the kroth estate. she came over the hill to come down the ring and you could just see rembrandt's eyes fix on something and he froze. she stayed perfectly still in the saddle, she had the most perfect way of dealing with that animal. I don't think i ever saw anything else like it in my life. when he was kicked by another horse in an awards ceremony she spent i think 18 months hand walking him herselfm and he came back and did compete, though he was older then and not quite as limber, it was still wonderful to see him again.

Eq3nStar
Oct. 1, 2007, 11:49 PM
Since you didn't quote, it's hard to know whom you're addressing. If it's rcloisonne, I too am puzzled why someone who thinks "fancy gaits" have anything to do with dressage. If that was directed at me, since you posted right after mine, you'd be quite wrong. Just for the record...

Yes- Rcloisonne- sorry
Although she seems to think you are her new BFF :)
And you can SAY I'd be quite wrong if I were talking to you- but we can all SAY whatever we want about our credentials behind an anonymous BB alter, can't we? ;)
"For the record," it's not just amateurs (as stated in one of your earlier posts) who'd be excluded from the show ring if the "Purist's" new "rules" were adopted. There are plenty of over-faced so called pros out there, so let's give the Ammies (who are the backbone of our sport here in the US) a break, eh?
I absolutely agree about the welfare of the horse- 100%. I also think the "Purist" is a whack job.
Sometimes the message is lost in a really crappy delivery.

slc2
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:15 AM
and sometimes the delivery is the message, LOL.

~Freedom~
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:41 AM
and sometimes the delivery is the message, LOL.


Short.

Hony
Oct. 2, 2007, 08:30 AM
Some people don't like cheaters, especially when it harms the innocent horse who didn't choose to have his head held down by force.

It's not cheating unless it is banned by the FEI. And, c'mon, little kids are worse on their horse's mouths every day. We don't call them cheaters. We also don't ban them from riding. The reality is that horses deal with a lot of crap from humans but they also get a lot in return.
Most of our horses will never know what it's like to starve or to be beaten bloody. They do know that they have a nice stall, 3 meals a day, turnout, a nice routine with lots of love. Rembrandt and Salinero surely have lovely lives 95% of the day and for a few minutes they experience some crap before returning to their padded lifestyle.
If there was no benefit to RK it would not be used. I believe the reason that RK has not been banned is because there must be a significant difference between the RK technique and just reefing the horse's head to its chest.
The other thing is that people who are using it ARE winning and they just don't care what the rest of us have to say. It's seriously not worth worrying about. If you want a cause then go rescue horses that need rescuing. There are many of the out there who haven't had their stall cleaned in a year and who haven't had hay in months. I bet they would appreciate it a whole lot more than Salinero.

egontoast
Oct. 2, 2007, 08:41 AM
I have no idea why slc must now lecture us on the pros and cons of Rembrandt's piaffe. I guess it was because his name was mentioned tangentially so out poured the usual canned irrelevant rant.

I mentioned Rembrandt in response to someone's suggestion that rollkur will die with Anky retiring. Rollkur was used with Rembrandt and did not die when he retired. That was the point. Not that he was great. Not that he was not great. Not that he had a great piaffe. Not that he had a bad piaffe. Quality of work/ piaffe was never mentioned.:confused:

AiryFairy
Oct. 2, 2007, 09:26 AM
Yes- Rcloisonne- sorry
Although she seems to think you are her new BFF :)
And you can SAY I'd be quite wrong if I were talking to you- but we can all SAY whatever we want about our credentials behind an anonymous BB alter, can't we? ;)
"For the record," it's not just amateurs (as stated in one of your earlier posts) who'd be excluded from the show ring if the "Purist's" new "rules" were adopted. There are plenty of over-faced so called pros out there, so let's give the Ammies (who are the backbone of our sport here in the US) a break, eh?
I absolutely agree about the welfare of the horse- 100%. I also think the "Purist" is a whack job.
Sometimes the message is lost in a really crappy delivery.

Well obviously, we can all say whatever we want about our "qualifications", but the fact is I learned to ride when 'balance seat' was taught correctly. My main instructor was a woman who had learned to ride in Europe from some of the best and most correct riders of the day, and was sufficiently horrified by what she saw here passing as 'correct' that she began to teach. In fact, my last horse was a 16.2 warmblood, a freebie because he had been abused this way,and developed a habit of bolting to get away from the pain. It was done by the owner, a small timid woman who wanted a push button packer to carry her through the upper levels. The problem was she simply couldn't ride such a powerful horse, and a so-called trainer she called in sent him back after more of the same saying "broken, can't be fixed". Oddly enough, when I took all the crap off his head and allowed him to use his head rather than have it levered between his knees, he stopped bolting. When I learned to ride, you never hung on the horse's mouth, you never cranked his head in past the vertical, collection was the whole body and not just an overflexed head with hind legs parked out going straight up and down. This kind of riding would have been shunned big time back then, so when did it become acceptable? When ginormous warmbloods became all the rage, and when little tiny women all had to have the biggest one, regardless of the fact that they were physically unable to ride one properly, so they had to resort to cruel forms of restraint in order to stay on and make it look good.

The "Purists" rules are obviously written with an ideal in mind, but I think his point, regardless of the harsh, snarky delivery, is that most of the time, what we call "sport" is being done very, very badly, for all the wrong reasons (ego, status, blah blah) without understanding the real prinicples of dressage, and he would like to see that stopped for the welfare of the horses. His 'rules' would instantaneously weed out the fakers, which is what he wants to point out. I don't think he's a whack job, I think he's frustrated and angry at such widespread abuse and that it's just accepted as "normal". I like that he's one of the few who dares call out the exalted Anky et. al on the extreme cruelty. I'd actually like to meet the guy, he's Czech I think, I wonder if his blunt delivery is the result of English not being his first language. I bet he'd be a gas to talk to.

AiryFairy
Oct. 2, 2007, 09:39 AM
It's not cheating unless it is banned by the FEI. And, c'mon, little kids are worse on their horse's mouths every day. We don't call them cheaters. We also don't ban them from riding. The reality is that horses deal with a lot of crap from humans but they also get a lot in return.
Most of our horses will never know what it's like to starve or to be beaten bloody. They do know that they have a nice stall, 3 meals a day, turnout, a nice routine with lots of love. Rembrandt and Salinero surely have lovely lives 95% of the day and for a few minutes they experience some crap before returning to their padded lifestyle.
If there was no benefit to RK it would not be used. I believe the reason that RK has not been banned is because there must be a significant difference between the RK technique and just reefing the horse's head to its chest.
The other thing is that people who are using it ARE winning and they just don't care what the rest of us have to say. It's seriously not worth worrying about. If you want a cause then go rescue horses that need rescuing. There are many of the out there who haven't had their stall cleaned in a year and who haven't had hay in months. I bet they would appreciate it a whole lot more than Salinero.


That's a pretty clueless response. How do you know what kind of lives Salinero and Rembrandt have? Are you sure that after spending an hour or more with their heads tied to their chests day after day that they are not in excruciating pain? (Take note of the fact that both of Anky's horses have bolted with her when they've had the opportunity, and she has been unable to stop them - wonder why?) Your whole justification for using rollkur is that a) kids do worse every day, and b)the horses have nice lives so it's ok to abuse them for a couple of hours every day? How humane of you.

Bluey
Oct. 2, 2007, 09:53 AM
---"The horse was the most unbelievably light footed animal that ever set foot in a dressage ring. It was more like watching a deer than a horse. i think he was the most beautiful horse i ever saw."---

Thanks for your impression of Rembrand. I tought the same, what a light horse.:eek:
I have only trained and ridden one similar to him in a lifetime of horses.
Such horses are amazing to watch and ride, but very few can get along with them.
They feel like trying to contain and guide air.

Rollkur has always been with us, was called behind the bit and was frowned as a fault of beginner trainers.
A horse getting behind the bit on you was one of the worst training faults to correct on a horse.

I don't know how it seems to have become today THE way to train for some.:confused:

snoopy
Oct. 2, 2007, 09:58 AM
http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/holland/2007/power-rollkur2.html

Hony
Oct. 2, 2007, 10:09 AM
That's a pretty clueless response. How do you know what kind of lives Salinero and Rembrandt have? Are you sure that after spending an hour or more with their heads tied to their chests day after day that they are not in excruciating pain? (Take note of the fact that both of Anky's horses have bolted with her when they've had the opportunity, and she has been unable to stop them - wonder why?) .

Well, that wasn't very nice was it. I don't know what kind of life Salinero or Rembrandt have any more than you do but I do know that I see a fat, shiny horse and that says a lot. A horse bolting in a busy atmosphere is not unheard of. A horse as strong as an upper level dressage horse can easily bolt on its rider.



Your whole justification for using rollkur is that a) kids do worse every day, and b)the horses have nice lives so it's ok to abuse them for a couple of hours every day? How humane of you.

I do not justify hurting a horse, however I think that there is a difference between RK and whatever form of abuse you are talking about. I am infact not all for RK, but I do think that more research needs to go into it before we dismiss these riders as horse abusers.
I don't think that RK will dissapear when Anky goes unless it is banned by the FEI and the FEI sends marshalls to every stable to stand guard.

AiryFairy
Oct. 2, 2007, 10:36 AM
Well, that wasn't very nice was it. I don't know what kind of life Salinero or Rembrandt have any more than you do but I do know that I see a fat, shiny horse and that says a lot. A horse bolting in a busy atmosphere is not unheard of. A horse as strong as an upper level dressage horse can easily bolt on its rider.

Nice? Again, you're trying to justify the abusive rollkur treatment by saying the horses are fat and shiny so they must be ok. Are you aware of the fact that when a horse's head is bent so severely that he cannot breathe? Perhaps this will enlighten you as to why horses that are well fed can and are being abused in other ways, and a clean stall and food doesn't justify doing it. Abuse does not always have to come in the form of starvation or beating, for the record. It's still cruel.

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/index.php

egontoast
Oct. 2, 2007, 10:47 AM
You may consider me out of the picture. I do not care to discuss feet.

huh? feet?

Hony
Oct. 2, 2007, 11:50 AM
Are you aware of the fact that when a horse's head is bent so severely that he cannot breathe?

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/index.php

If a horse couldn't breathe then it would fall over dead. This hasn't happened to Power and Paint, Rembrandt, Salinero etc.
The only reason that I justify RK is because I think that it is important to see why these riders think it is beneficial.
Sustainable dressage is many people's only source of information on RK. It clearly doesn't look at this aspect of RK and is in my opinion only one part of the picture. Not to mention that a picture gives only a very small fraction of a second moment in time.
I have a friend who's horse has some major issues which she is working through but the horse will curl up behind the bit and run off. In a pic it would look exactly like RK even though her goal is to constantly uncurl the horse and work on rhythm. What I'm saying is that a picture is not a fair portrait of RK, nor is one website.
What we need to know is why are top trainers using this method if it is clearly bad and not beneficial to the overall training of a horse. We need to know why it is catapulting them to the top of the ranks.

snoopy
Oct. 2, 2007, 12:00 PM
If a horse couldn't breathe then it would fall over dead. This hasn't happened to Power and Paint, Rembrandt, Salinero etc.




How do you know it hasn't happened yet?:confused:




What we need to know is why are top trainers using this method if it is clearly bad and not beneficial to the overall training of a horse. We need to know why it is catapulting them to the top of the ranks.



Because the Judges are rewarding an incorrect way of moving.:mad:

Eq3nStar
Oct. 2, 2007, 12:01 PM
One person's whack job is another's Messiah. Tomato, tomahto.


I'd actually like to meet the guy, he's Czech I think, I wonder if his blunt delivery is the result of English not being his first language. I bet he'd be a gas to talk to.

Knock yourself out and enjoy the misogynistic put downs.

I don't disagree that the horse's welfare has to come first. But learning a balanced seat hasn't gone the way of the dinosaur- that's where I start with all of my students.

slc2
Oct. 2, 2007, 12:55 PM
airy fairy, i just LOVED your description of your 'back in the day' background, when men were men, and women were women, and the balanced seat was taught, ROFLMAO!

Maria
Oct. 2, 2007, 01:11 PM
yawn, more of the same.

AiryFairy
Oct. 2, 2007, 01:14 PM
If a horse couldn't breathe then it would fall over dead. This hasn't happened to Power and Paint, Rembrandt, Salinero etc.
The only reason that I justify RK is because I think that it is important to see why these riders think it is beneficial.

No, it would struggle and fight and drool constantly because no only can't it breathe, it can't swallow either.

http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/BioMechonthebit3.html


Sustainable dressage is many people's only source of information on RK. It clearly doesn't look at this aspect of RK and is in my opinion only one part of the picture. Not to mention that a picture gives only a very small fraction of a second moment in time.

I'm amazed that you think a horse not being able to breathe properly isn't that big a deal. You need to watch more videos of the "stars", schooling their horses endlessly like this. It is NOT a moment in time, it is twenty or thirty at a time.


I have a friend who's horse has some major issues which she is working through but the horse will curl up behind the bit and run off. In a pic it would look exactly like RK even though her goal is to constantly uncurl the horse and work on rhythm. What I'm saying is that a picture is not a fair portrait of RK, nor is one website.

Then do a little more research, eh? It's all out there.


What we need to know is why are top trainers using this method if it is clearly bad and not beneficial to the overall training of a horse. We need to know why it is catapulting them to the top of the ranks.

It's easier to manhandle a horse into submission than it is to train it properly. It's fast, the faster they turn a horse around and sell it as upper level, the more money they make. It's money, and it's also the fact that the FEI needs to clean house of the people who aren't upholding their own rules, or changing the rules to accomodate faddish riding.

AdAblurr02
Oct. 2, 2007, 01:15 PM
Does "Altitudinally Disensaddled" mean habitually falling off a really tall horse?

I like that.
I thought Sandy meant that she has to stand on a bucket to get ON her horse - like I do :)

:) :) :)

Hony
Oct. 2, 2007, 01:22 PM
Okay, so the judges are rewarding an incorrect way of moving. Don't you think this is something that should be investigated futher in addition to investigating riders' use of RK.
I honestly think that it doesn't matter how the judges judge. Someone will be upset, someone will find some way to put down the riders and trainers.
Snoopy: I know it hasn't happened yet because it would be highly documented. Dressage horses aren't the only one's who go around in this position. Race horses who pull like freight trains often get curled over and they exert themselves far more than dressage horses.

slc2
Oct. 2, 2007, 01:56 PM
in fact it is quite common to see horses positioned in various extreme ways in the neck. i was at a barn last weekend that featured an arabian western pleasure horse who was ridden for two hours with his chin on his chest, in no less extreme of a picture than power and paint, and no one turned a hair. it appeared everyone there considered it to be absolutely fine. a few weeks ago we were at a fair that featured morgan classes, 3 of the horses had their chins very near their chests for most of the class. no judges removed them, and no one complained, two of them got ribbons. i really don't think everyone sees this as abuse. i'm not saying that's good or right, i'm just saying, such things may make it very difficult to get a law passed to ban rollkur in the usa.

if the dutch organization does get rollkur banned, it will have to define rollkur, and it will have to decide on how to enforce it.

does anyone remember any time in the past when a training technique or method in dressage was reviewed by such an organization?

it could bring up an added wierd problem - how to deal with having horses from different countries at a competition when they usually trained in a country with a very different policy on it...

AiryFairy
Oct. 2, 2007, 02:13 PM
Okay, so the judges are rewarding an incorrect way of moving. Don't you think this is something that should be investigated futher in addition to investigating riders' use of RK.
I honestly think that it doesn't matter how the judges judge. Someone will be upset, someone will find some way to put down the riders and trainers.
Snoopy: I know it hasn't happened yet because it would be highly documented. Dressage horses aren't the only one's who go around in this position. Race horses who pull like freight trains often get curled over and they exert themselves far more than dressage horses.

Again, an uneducated response. A horse that is bent like that is in respiratory distress. Look at any of these racehorses, and see if you can spot the difference between this:
http://images.google.com/images?q=race+horses&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title
and this:
http://www.paddock-news.com/pag_publi/rollkur/index.html

Coreene
Oct. 2, 2007, 02:33 PM
This thread reminds me of an old energy crisis bumpersticker:

Save Gas. Fart in a Jar.

MistyBlue
Oct. 2, 2007, 02:34 PM
(waving hand)
I spotted the difference! I did, I did!
It's the tack, right? They're wearing different tack. :yes:

Hony
Oct. 2, 2007, 02:58 PM
AiryFairy: There is clearly a difference between a race horse in full gallop and a dressage horses. There is clearly a similarity between a race horse being held back in his morning workout and a dressage horse. My uneducated response comes from riding 16 TBs a day.
If dressage horses were constantly falling over dead because they can't breathe then dressage riders are really brave. :rolleyes:

AiryFairy
Oct. 2, 2007, 03:19 PM
AiryFairy: There is clearly a difference between a race horse in full gallop and a dressage horses. There is clearly a similarity between a race horse being held back in his morning workout and a dressage horse. My uneducated response comes from riding 16 TBs a day.
If dressage horses were constantly falling over dead because they can't breathe then dressage riders are really brave. :rolleyes:

Actually, there is no similarity at all. If indeed you do gallop racehorses, then you should know better. What happens if you try to gallop a horse while holding his head curled into his chest? Problem with getting air, y'think?

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 2, 2007, 03:26 PM
Airy give up the ghost Hony is right. Race horses do put their chin to their chest often at a full run before they begin to slow. No they dont loose oxygen sheesh. Horses with chins to chest can be seen anywhere including the trail where some riders muttering ("walk you *** ** * *****"). This is so silly! Some people need to get out more LOL. Rk propably shouldnt be used so strongly but it is certainly not the kind of abuse you guys are making it!`

Galileo1998
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:46 PM
I watched a steeplechaser that was on it's way to the start tank off on his jockey and do three laps of Cheltenham Racecourse with his chin on his chest.

I have watched any number of hard pulling racehorses gallop in the morning with their heads in their chests.

I have watched any number of racehorses roll their heads into their chest and gallop out that way when pulling up after a race.

Not a one on them keeled over dead from lack of air. Give your head a shake.

slc2
Oct. 2, 2007, 05:03 PM
Actually, these people are right. Horses have their necks in all sorts of wierd postures and they don't experience any respiratory distress at all, unless their nostrils are blocked. A horse has a long flexible neck, quite unlike a person. I can even find pics of wild horses running like that in a herd. It doesn't kill them.

it didn't kill power and paint. he showed no signs of respiratory distress. and he won't - unless his nostrils are actually blocked.

The thing few people seem to get, is that a horse doesn't HAVE to be suffocating, or in agonizing pain, to make someone to feel or say, 'i don't want to train my horse that way'.

all the owner has to feel is, 'i am just not sure how it fits into a classical training program, given the classical tenets of keeping the poll up and the face in front of the vertical', or 'i don't like how it looks, it just looks HORRIBLE to me visually' or 'i'm not sure if it's good for the horse's bones and ligaments long term', or 'i just don't see how it makes the back and hind quarters work right for what i feel a dressage horse should be doing', or 'i'm not comfortable with a pose that puts the horse's head behind a vertical line', or 'i'm afraid it will make my horse feel unhappy, trapped or restrained'.

that is ENOUGH. no one needs any more reason than that. they don't need research, they don't need the top riders to agree with them, they don't need ANYONE to agree with them. it's THEIR horse, it's THEIR choice, and it's that individual owner that has to bear responsibility for that horse's welfare, and that individual owner has to go to sleep at night feeling they did what they felt is right. people can argue all they want, but it comes down to exactly that.

Mozart
Oct. 2, 2007, 05:07 PM
Actually, these people are right. Horses have their necks in all sorts of wierd postures and they don't experience any respiratory distress at all, unless their nostrils are blocked. A horse has a long flexible neck, quite unlike a person. I can even find pics of wild horses running like that in a herd. It doesn't kill them.

it didn't kill power and paint. he showed no signs of respiratory distress. and he won't - unless his nostrils are actually blocked.

The thing few people seem to get, is that a horse doesn't HAVE to be suffocating, or in agonizing pain, to make someone to feel or say, 'i don't want to train my horse that way'.

all the owner has to feel is, 'i am just not sure how it fits into a classical training program, given the classical tenets of keeping the poll up and the face in front of the vertical', or 'i don't like how it looks, it just looks HORRIBLE to me visually' or 'i'm not sure if it's good for the horse's bones and ligaments long term', or 'i just don't see how it makes the back and hind quarters work right for what i feel a dressage horse should be doing', or 'i'm not comfortable with a pose that puts the horse's head behind a vertical line', or 'i'm afraid it will make my horse feel unhappy, trapped or restrained'.

that is ENOUGH. no one needs any more reason than that. they don't need research, they don't need the top riders to agree with them, they don't need ANYONE to agree with them. it's THEIR horse, it's THEIR choice, and it's that individual owner that has to bear responsibility for that horse's welfare, and that individual owner has to go to sleep at night feeling they did what they felt is right. people can argue all they want, but it comes down to exactly that.

I can't find anything to disagree with in this quote! lol!

AiryFairy
Oct. 2, 2007, 05:11 PM
I watched a steeplechaser that was on it's way to the start tank off on his jockey and do three laps of Cheltenham Racecourse with his chin on his chest.

I have watched any number of hard pulling racehorses gallop in the morning with their heads in their chests.

I have watched any number of racehorses roll their heads into their chest and gallop out that way when pulling up after a race.

Not a one on them keeled over dead from lack of air. Give your head a shake.


So were you trying to make a point or something? A horse that can gallop with a tucked head while pulling up is somehow the same as a dressage horse who is forced to work that way, day in and day out? Apples and oranges, and by the way, irrelevant. Read the research, folks.

grayarabs
Oct. 2, 2007, 05:25 PM
I loved Rembrandt and Nicole Uphoff - never liked Anky's riding - did not like Bonfire.
This was about twenty years ago I guess - at a symposium - watching tape of R and NU in warm- up - the BN clinician said NU rode R deep like that because he was such a spook.
I accepted that and was always mesmerized watching his tests. I never equated R and NU with BF and AvG ie "deep" - at that time. I watched the Olympics - AvG won gold with OBF? Gosh so long ago. I did not get it. I did not like her riding - nor the horse - nor the freestyle - and everyone was gushing about everything Anky - I was a beginner dressage rider - would have loved anything GP - but something about Avg and horse rubbed me wrong. As a musician first and rider second - I could not believe the hoopla about the freestyle and his "symphony". Blah. Particularly compared to KK and Matador's - which reduced me to tears each viewing. All these years - I have never understood the fascination people had for Anky - and now with RK - my feelings more strong that regard.
I cannot believe she is considered to be one of the best in he world. What she does - to me - is not even dressage. Well I guess it is sport dressage - not dressage for art.
Not dressage for the love of the horse. The other day thinking about this I tried to think of horses/riders over the years that have had "it" - you cannot keep your eyes off them - they give you chills and tears - they "transport" you - oddly enough one of the first horses that came to mind - was Aktion ridden by GDallos - I could not believe that Monica under another thread mentioned him as well. There are, of course, others - but for me - Anky "ain't it". Rollkur is the antithesis of dressage - somehow it must be stopped - and hopefully we have reached that point - enough is enough - now also with PandP and CvB.
Dressage is supposed to be beautiful and the horse is supposed to be proud.

Galileo1998
Oct. 2, 2007, 08:02 PM
So were you trying to make a point or something? A horse that can gallop with a tucked head while pulling up is somehow the same as a dressage horse who is forced to work that way, day in and day out? Apples and oranges, and by the way, irrelevant. Read the research, folks.

Yes - now since you don't seem to understand my point let me make it more clear. Horses, can, and do, inhale and exhale with their chins to their chest. They do not fall over dead. They don't even pass out like those adorable little fainting goats.

Coreene
Oct. 2, 2007, 08:12 PM
Yes - now since you don't seem to understand my point let me make it more clear. Horses, can, and do, inhale and exhale with their chins to their chest. They do not fall over dead. They don't even pass out like those adorable little fainting goats.
Galileo
Galileo
Galileo figaro magnifico

Amen, sister.

Hony
Oct. 2, 2007, 08:27 PM
Galileo you make me laugh and laugh. Thank you for clarifying my point.

Pony Fixer
Oct. 2, 2007, 09:03 PM
Wow. AiryFairy and RClois, you have done the seemingly impossible.

You almost have people DEFENDING ROLLKUR against you.

Isn't there a saying, something about vinegar and honey and flies?

I don't think anyone here is an RK expert. We all react based on the premise that the pics and videos we've seen appear harsh, extreme, whatever. I'm not so sure I would go so far as abuse, though. Maybe we'll find out down the road that it did hurt horse's necks, or something. Maybe we won't. I think there are FAR worse abuses going on, as I think Hony alluded to earlier. Starving horses, beaten horses, etc. Heck even worse than that are starving people, beaten people, etc. And then, as I alluded to earlier, there are the commonplace things I see that I feel fall into the same category of "abuse" as RK--big spurs jabbing horses every stride, yanking horses in the mouth over jumps, etc. Do I agree with these things? No. Do most people do it on purpose? No. Do most people strive to make their horses as comfortable (in and out of the saddle) as possible? Yes. Are there exceptions? Of course, but they don't have to prove the rule.

"Purist" or not, it's the extreme, unyielding, no room of other opinion, cramming down the throat lecturing that the posters here are reacting to, not the premise that RK might be wrong.

AiryFairy
Oct. 2, 2007, 10:17 PM
You almost have people DEFENDING ROLLKUR against you.

LOL...nope, can't defend the indefensible, but it's interesting to see how little a horse's humane treatment means to people who supposedly care about them. To quote Walter Zettl:

"Unfortunately, our poor horses are unable to scream out their pain. Otherwise, we would have to endure a lot of loud screaming and crying in many indoor and outdoor arenas and warm-up rings. It is a pity that Nature has cruelly neglected to equip our horses with the ability to voice
their pain. Their lot is to continue to endure all pain and abuse quietly.

Our former “Grand Masters” would turn in their graves if they could see what our beautiful dressage sport has come to."

slc2
Oct. 2, 2007, 10:45 PM
....oh, and if you can't stop your horse, run it into a wall"

~Freedom~
Oct. 2, 2007, 10:49 PM
LOL...nope, can't defend the indefensible, but it's interesting to see how little a horse's humane treatment means to people who supposedly care about them.


Be careful about making such broad statements. I do not defend RK and do not train that way. I have always been a classical dressage rider/trainer from the beginning and while I did show I would be happy to go home without a ribbon knowing that we did well and improved from the time previous.

My training was good enough to get ribbons and yes the ribbons were pretty but never would I resort to RK as a fast track to the winners circle or higher levels. To make an assumption that every poster here doesn't care simply because they strenuously disagree with a set of draconian rules laid down by someone that came from the stone knives and bearskins era is a little over the top.

Pony Fixer
Oct. 2, 2007, 11:11 PM
LOL...nope, can't defend the indefensible, but it's interesting to see how little a horse's humane treatment means to people who supposedly care about them.[/I]

I can assure you, in no uncertain terms, that I have done more FOR individual (and global) horse welfare than you ever have, or probably will.

Sithly
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:05 AM
I'd actually like to meet the guy, he's Czech I think, I wonder if his blunt delivery is the result of English not being his first language. I bet he'd be a gas to talk to.

He'd tell you to get off the Internet and get back in the kitchen. :lol:;)


Be careful about making such broad statements. I do not defend RK and do not train that way. [...] To make an assumption that every poster here doesn't care simply because they strenuously disagree with a set of draconian rules laid down by someone that came from the stone knives and bearskins era is a little over the top.

Can I get an amen?

AMEN!

Sabine
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:30 AM
It will never die alone- it's been around way too long and been used by too many serious -senior horsemen- I think Sjef took it to a whole new place- but- it's been around for a long time and if you read old books and keep a library of old (200 yrs plus) then you'll know naturally that it's nothing new. It's a way to incorporate the back and the loin of the horse into the training- when there are blockages. Just like in humans - all horses are different- their quality of muscle- the way it's put together is different. I look at my daughters- their bodies are slightly different - although both eat very healthy and exercise religiously - one is sinuous and lanky and has a thin layer of skin with clearly showing muscle- the other one has a hard to the touch body- with very little give on the skin layer but the muscle is melting into the bone with very little transition and very little give on the surface- there are different types of physiques- same with horses- they are more or less able to give in the back and loosen up and connect all parts of the body. Somehow that very deep work does do some magic in certain cases....

nonetheless- it's in my mind nothing to worry too much about- those that whine are those that haven't figured out that every horse needs its own individual training program- some need deep and maybe some form of RK to really peak those gaits- others don't need it at all-they truly loose if you do that to them- it's not a one for all method but the saddest by product of it is that peeps who don't know it - seem to think that they should copy it- and those are in my mind the ones that are really hurting a lot of horses...the copycat effect is the real problem..

jmo- and I don't use RK- because I don't know enough about it to be good at it...just plain that...:)!

AiryFairy
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:42 AM
The so-called "draconian rules", whether you understand what he was trying to say (clearly not a lot of people did) or agree with them, are not the point, and never were. The point is that the dressage culture, who worships "famous" riders, has condoned blatant abuse of horses - and yes, I call it abuse when you use leverage on a horse's tender gums, curb bits cranked tight with constant, unrelenting pressure, to cause excruciating pain to a horse's mouth that he cannot possibly escape from. People are copying it, and the governing body has turned a blind eye. Politics? Ignorance? What excuse is acceptable for such an inhumane way of treating a horse? If someone dragged a dog around in public with a choke chain so tight it couldn't breathe, would that be ok?

Anyone remember when you first learned to use a full bridle? Ride on the snaffle, the curb is only for momentary use to collect, you never hang on it and you never abuse it (unless you want to go over backwards). Where did that principle go?

Sabine
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:48 AM
Fairy my dear- read old books- it always has- always in dressage there was worship- love and hate- it is a very emotional sport- just like in ballet- it's deep, takes a lot out of you- if you are the rider- and requires a ton of skill. It's a high stakes sport. And the reactions are often quite loaded...with emotion and opinion.

If you are talking about abuse- look at other horse sports- and dressage seems like a bland, watered down - lowkey event..chill my dear- it's really not so bad...:)

~Freedom~
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:26 AM
The so-called "draconian rules", whether you understand what he was trying to say (clearly not a lot of people did) or agree with them, are not the point, and never were.

If they never were the point why were they even dragged out.


The point is that the dressage culture, who worships "famous" riders, has condoned blatant abuse of horses -

Here you go again painting all dressage riders with the same brush. Don't take the 1% that uses such methods as representative of the whole community. Considering the outrage at the way Power and Point was "presented" you are way off the mark thinking the dressage culture condones blatant or even subtle abuse.



and yes, I call it abuse when you use leverage on a horse's tender gums, curb bits cranked tight with constant, unrelenting pressure, to cause excruciating pain to a horse's mouth that he cannot possibly escape from.

Speak for yourself. Not at all how I ride or how the majority rides/trains.


People are copying it, and the governing body has turned a blind eye.

People copy everything. I remember when children would think they could jump off building because the TV Superman could. Somehow we get over such nonsense and move on usually without people like yourself making too much of a dent.


Politics? Ignorance? What excuse is acceptable for such an inhumane way of treating a horse?

I agree but again take your outrage and channel it against the people you are unhappy with. Most dressage riders care a lot for their horse and simply don't use these methods.



If someone dragged a dog around in public with a choke chain so tight it couldn't breathe, would that be ok?

And dogs relate to dressage how?


Anyone remember when you first learned to use a full bridle? Ride on the snaffle, the curb is only for momentary use to collect, you never hang on it and you never abuse it (unless you want to go over backwards). Where did that principle go?

Hmmm I still ride like that. The principle has not been lost. Once again you don't know me or many that post here. In my case there usually is a light/looseness in the curb rein ( and I get wonderful piaffes/passages) so once again don't paint all riders with the same brush.

AiryFairy
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:16 AM
Fairy my dear- read old books- it always has- always in dressage there was worship- love and hate- it is a very emotional sport- just like in ballet- it's deep, takes a lot out of you- if you are the rider- and requires a ton of skill. It's a high stakes sport. And the reactions are often quite loaded...with emotion and opinion.

If you are talking about abuse- look at other horse sports- and dressage seems like a bland, watered down - lowkey event..chill my dear- it's really not so bad...:)

First of all, being condescending, dear, neither makes you right or me wrong, it's just bad manners and indicates you're taking things personally, I can't imagine why. Secondly, the abuse in this sport is blatant and right out there in the open, and not being addressed by the governing body. That's what this conversation is about, bringing other disciplines into it as examples of worse treatment is going way off topic.

AiryFairy
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:59 AM
If they never were the point why were they even dragged out.

Dunno, you'll have to ask the OP, I merely said I understood what he was getting at.


Here you go again painting all dressage riders with the same brush. Don't take the 1% that uses such methods as representative of the whole community. Considering the outrage at the way Power and Point was "presented" you are way off the mark thinking the dressage culture condones blatant or even subtle abuse.

And as with the previous poster, why are you taking things so personally? The abuse I'm talking about takes place at every major competition, under the supposedly watchful eye of the FEI. And regardless if they're 'only 1%' or whatever percent, it's happening at the highest level of the sport, unchallenged. Finally someone documented in photos something the rider/trainer denied ever happened, and they're investigating. Great. But Anky was issued a red card for excessive training which was withdrawn after Sjeff pitched a fit? Does he have incriminating pictures of some FEI official in bed with a goat or something?


Speak for yourself. Not at all how I ride or how the majority rides/trains.
That reply makes no sense, unless you're disagreeing that overuse of a curb bit is abuse. I always speak for myself, and I think abuse of the curb bit is cruelty. Nothing was said or inferred about how you ride.


I agree but again take your outrage and channel it against the people you are unhappy with. Most dressage riders care a lot for their horse and simply don't use these methods.

Seriously, do you have a guilty conscience or something? Why are you so adamant that this discussion, and 'my outrage' as you call it, is about you? My observation is that there are a some 'old school' trainers and riders who don't ride that way, and the vast majority of the younger riders who thinks it's the norm. There was a dressage show at my property last summer. I can honestly say I was sickened by watching all the horses in the warmup go around facing the dirt and doing their tests behind the bit. It was not the exception, it was the norm.


And dogs relate to dressage how?

It's called an "analogy". Choking a dog in public would not be tolerated, the person responsible would be arrested and charged with cruelty. Choking a horse in public and riding it in a way that causes pain is called "how the winners do it" and seems to be perfectly acceptable. Hopefully not for long.


Hmmm I still ride like that. The principle has not been lost. Once again you don't know me or many that post here. In my case there usually is a light/looseness in the curb rein ( and I get wonderful piaffes/passages) so once again don't paint all riders with the same brush.

Well cheers and good for you, however, you take things far too literally - I was not talking about the way YOU ride, or the way anyone else here rides, the comments were directed at people (Anky, Isabel, et. al) who are in the public eye and who are supposed to know better than anyone the principles of riding. The one thing I love about watching Balagur go is exactly what you said, the looseness of the curb rein, he's not being held up or cranked in by his rider. But he's definitely not in a majority.

Pony Fixer
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:23 AM
So much venom, so little time.

I can't stand the heat, so consider me out of the kitchen. I don't agree that "the state of affairs" in dressage is so dire and aweful. I don't agree that "most" riders and trainers are counter to the classical principles. And while we are all entitled to our opinions, this discussion is far to antagonistic for my taste.

slc2
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:50 AM
agree. I also don't think that any of these stridently criticizing people are actually doing anything about rollkur. i don't see ANY petitions circling around, i haven't gotten ANY requests to get involved in a group actually trying to DO anything about this, it's all just hot air, gossip, witch hunts and ffinger pointing. and that is ALL i've seen, in all the years since rollkur and hyperflexion came on the scene, is gossip, witch hunts, finger pointing and 'ooooh, i am SOOO holier than thou, i ride SOOO much better than you, and if you don't agree hat, a** and handbasket with me, you are evil too!' god. it's more like watching a 20 year long replay of 'The Crucible' in slow motion, than anything else.

rollkur would have been removed from the scene years ago, but its detractors do far more to keep it on the scene than to remove it, and they always have. the holiest of the holier than thou are actually perpetuating rollkur.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:32 AM
Ya what they said!

CatOnLap
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:33 AM
the holiest of the holier than thou are actually perpetuating rollkur.

If we all followed that sort of thinking, global warming and air pollution would have never been a problem because the general populace never talked about it for the 3 or 4 decades it was building up before this century.

"Don't waste time using rational arguments on religious people. If they worked, there would be no religious people"- House

slc2
Oct. 3, 2007, 11:57 AM
hardly. global warming is a gradual phenomenon that may have been going on for hundreds of years, that no one even recognized til recently, and involves a global action, if any action at all will actually change it. or if it even is being measured properly - there's some new evidence that polar warming may be due to a volcano or techtonic movement.

this issue, how you use your reins to bend a horse's neck, is not exactly in the same league with global warming. to suggest that they have any parallels, even in thought process, is absurd.

AiryFairy
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:37 PM
[QUOTE=Pony Fixer;2717745]So much venom, so little time.QUOTE]

Really, where's the venom?

Here's what I find sad. I find it sad that instead of intelligent discourse on a subject that's important to the future of the sport and the humane treatment of the beasts we supposedly love, instead it ends up with people getting pissy and defensive about how they ride and making the whole discussion suddenly about themselves, as if they have been personally attacked. Since no one in this group WAS personally attacked, I guess it's down to reading comprehension.:confused:

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:43 PM
I think where you went wrong was comparing RK to starvation and the state of dressage to Global warming. Yes the pics are extreme! No we dont think that Coby should be compared to Hitler.

purplnurpl
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:46 PM
This is why we have the USEF and FEI to make rules. And I am happy to ride under those rules.
If you do not want to ride under the USEF or FEI rules then DON'T. We won't miss you.
****
The elimination of the lower levels of dressage performed in the dressage ring, and/or creating larger rings for the less balanced horses.

The first statement is so ridiculous I have no words. I do believe that that first 10 meter half turn is hard on the youngsters...but it lasts only a second. Get on with life. The first score of a dressage test includes the center line as well. So what if your horse wiggles through 1 turn! Get over it.

Increased attention to riding on the forehand, and the disqualification of riders that fail to meet the collection level, as well as, the balance level in the appropriate dressage class (0 points!).

Some horses are built poorly and have a way of going that is fore heavy. Now you're just discriminating.

Any horse that puts his head past the vertical any time during the performance should be disqualified in any level (no points!).

Some young horses wiggle around trying to figure out life. There is a reason that the 1-10 point system was developed. A horse BTV will not score well on a given move. This is now discriminating green riders or young horses.

No severe riding aids! If your horse is willing, you don't need them. You are not on the battle field!

I personally slap my horse a few times before starting a test... and winning. I’m sure glad I don't frequent the shows you are at.

Deeper surfaces in the riding rings (see most TB racetracks for sufficient depth of riding surface). A horse with good impulsion and cadence will not kick out any dirt, nor will he trip (in front or rear), whereas an off-balance (sore) horse will tend to do one or both of them, which shows his incorrect going.

Go joint the western world if you want deeper sand. I like the limestone sand footing. It's EASIER on my horse’s joints.

The propagation of training dressage horses in open spaces (on grass fields, etc.). The dressage horse should not work in the limited ring more than once or twice per week.

Um...who’s going around to every rider’s farm to manage this rule? It's completely retarded. Some horses need an arena to stay attentive. Open spaces are for hacking.

Making riding with and without saddles mandatory (blanket with girth only - do less and do it better!) in the lower levels of dressage. This will eliminate the "fake" riders, thus improving the higher riding levels in dressage, which the rest of the dressage folk look up to.

I guess you have never ridden a really good moving young horse. Good luck. You'll be carrying a doughnut around for the next 6 weeks to aid your poor broken ars.

Approving the suitability of horses for riding purposes by setting limits on height and weight (as well as their relationship to each other), which will lead to more appropriate and suitable breeding of horses for modern purposes.

Now why can't we do that for the riders as well? braahahahah. Sorry, had to.

Any special shoeing, other than simple flat, light riding plates, should be disallowed, no pads, no bars, no wedge pads, etc.

While you’re at it you can diss allow all saddle tree sizes other than Extra Narrow?

Any horse that enters the dressage ring sore should be excluded from performance for life and the rider should be expelled from the dressage society. Same thing if there is any foreign substance found in the horse's blood.

Horses are athletes. They are going to be sore, as are human athletes.

Thomas_1
Oct. 3, 2007, 01:24 PM
agree. I also don't think that any of these stridently criticizing people are actually doing anything about rollkur. i don't see ANY petitions circling around, i haven't gotten ANY requests to get involved in a group actually trying to DO anything about this, it's all just hot air, gossip, witch hunts and ffinger pointing. and that is ALL i've seen, in all the years since rollkur and hyperflexion came on the scene, is gossip, witch hunts, finger pointing and 'ooooh, i am SOOO holier than thou, i ride SOOO much better than you, and if you don't agree hat, a** and handbasket with me, you are evil too!' god. it's more like watching a 20 year long replay of 'The Crucible' in slow motion, than anything else.

rollkur would have been removed from the scene years ago, but its detractors do far more to keep it on the scene than to remove it, and they always have. the holiest of the holier than thou are actually perpetuating rollkur.

I've only just seen your posting.

I am terribly sorry that the British Horse Society didn't see fit to personally contact you when they were seeking opinion with regard to Rolkur.

I really can't begin to think why they didn't as I well know that they directly communicated with many who have influence in the world of professional horsemanship.

By way of helping you and putting right their terrible ommission, this might help you:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/notorolkurandrudeness/

~Freedom~
Oct. 3, 2007, 06:14 PM
Dunno, you'll have to ask the OP, I merely said I understood what he was getting at.


It wasn't the original poster that brought up these draconian rules but a non dressage rider who has no insight at all in just what dressage is.



And as with the previous poster, why are you taking things so personally? The abuse I'm talking about takes place at every major competition, under the supposedly watchful eye of the FEI. And regardless if they're 'only 1%' or whatever percent, it's happening at the highest level of the sport, unchallenged. Finally someone documented in photos something the rider/trainer denied ever happened, and they're investigating. Great. But Anky was issued a red card for excessive training which was withdrawn after Sjeff pitched a fit? Does he have incriminating pictures of some FEI official in bed with a goat or something?

You see I answer for myself because I DON'T know the other people on this board ( although I may suspect certain things). To answer FOR THEM would be presumptuous. The last time I am aware I am not banned and have a right to put forth opinions that only I can back up.



That reply makes no sense, unless you're disagreeing that overuse of a curb bit is abuse. I always speak for myself, and I think abuse of the curb bit is cruelty. Nothing was said or inferred about how you ride.One again since you made a statement that was all inclusive of curb abuse. I pointed out that was not how I rode. Once again I can only reply for myself but I suspect most here do not abuse the curb.




Seriously, do you have a guilty conscience or something? Why are you so adamant that this discussion, and 'my outrage' as you call it, is about you? My observation is that there are a some 'old school' trainers and riders who don't ride that way, and the vast majority of the younger riders who thinks it's the norm. There was a dressage show at my property last summer. I can honestly say I was sickened by watching all the horses in the warmup go around facing the dirt and doing their tests behind the bit. It was not the exception, it was the norm.If you were not upset or outraged why are you even posting. I am "outraged" that you presume we all abuse our horses.




It's called an "analogy". Choking a dog in public would not be tolerated, the person responsible would be arrested and charged with cruelty. Choking a horse in public and riding it in a way that causes pain is called "how the winners do it" and seems to be perfectly acceptable. Hopefully not for long.I know what an analogy is but since RK is not "choking" you are comparing apples to oranges.




Well cheers and good for you, however, you take things far too literally - I was not talking about the way YOU ride, or the way anyone else here rides, the comments were directed at people (Anky, Isabel, et. al) who are in the public eye and who are supposed to know better than anyone the principles of riding. The one thing I love about watching Balagur go is exactly what you said, the looseness of the curb rein, he's not being held up or cranked in by his rider. But he's definitely not in a majority.Oh but you are inferring that all dressage riders abuse their horses by at least the "overuse" of the curb bit as you stated. If your comments are referring to a specific individual rather than the industry as a whole please insert the individual's or group's name so it is clearer.

AiryFairy
Oct. 3, 2007, 07:11 PM
Oh but you are inferring that all dressage riders abuse their horses by at least the "overuse" of the curb bit as you stated.

I said nothing of the kind. Please learn to read and take in what I really said, instead of what you imagine.

Sabine
Oct. 4, 2007, 12:56 AM
First of all, being condescending, dear, neither makes you right or me wrong, it's just bad manners and indicates you're taking things personally, I can't imagine why. Secondly, the abuse in this sport is blatant and right out there in the open, and not being addressed by the governing body. That's what this conversation is about, bringing other disciplines into it as examples of worse treatment is going way off topic.

it's your big chip on your shoulder that's weighing you down in many ways. So Sorry!