Questions for driving my QH

[sublimequine]

Someday I would eventually love to teach my QH mare to drive. As of right now she is quite the expert ground-driver, and has worn a full harness and blind bridle a few times now as well.

But it really seems like the driving world just doesn't have a place for QHs. I am having absolute nightmares trying to get a harness that is big enough and small enough in the right places, and some pieces seem like they just won't work with her build and way of going, period.

The first piece of equipment I have a question about is the overcheck. My harness came with an overcheck, but I have yet to even hook it up to the harness, let alone on my mare. While it seems these parts work just dandy on the high-headed Saddlebreds, Arabs, and Morgans.. it just DOESN'T work on my head-between-the-knees QH. The strap would have to be like 3 feet longer than it is, and then it seems it would defeat the purpose. So my question is, is the overcheck absolutely needed? How on earth are they supposed to work on low-headset horses!?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qRLfJqKSHwI&mode=related&search= , here's some AQHA pleasure driving horses. I just can't see an overcheck working on these types of horses. Maybe someone with more experience can help me out?

The second kinda pair of pieces I have a question about is the breeching and crupper. Neither fit on my mare. Do cruppers come in extra-long sizes? My mare has an extremely long back, and her current crupper is about a foot too short. :lol: Also, how can you tell if the crupper is too tight or too loose?

The breeching is also about 3 sizes too small. She's got the big QH hind end, and her breeching could probably fit ONE of her buttcheeks. But, I'm afraid a draft size breeching might be too big. I've seen some harness horses with no breeching at all, too. How does that work? Is this an option for my mare?

Sorry about the million questions, but the little I know of driving, was taught with Saddlebreds and Morgans in the harness, not big-butted, broad-shouldered, low-headset QHs. :eek:

[goodhors]

It sounds like your harness just doesn't fit your horse. I would not try to make it fit, but sell it, buy one that is the correct size. It might be best if you just measured her, ordered a harness made to fit her. Few out-of-the-box harnesses fit actual horses. Proportions are always off. Lots of harness makers around, not any more expensive to make a custom size for her. She will be much happier with equipment that fits correctly, comfortably.

My main question is whether you plan to show her in AQHA Driving classes? Her style of low-head, slow moving, as shown in the video, is not suitable for the Carriage Driving classes of a Pleasure Driving show. QH driving has a very different set of expectations, equipment used, than Carriage Driving does. I am pretty sure you are REQUIRED to use the overcheck in your QH breed shows, along with the light carts and a Fine Harness style harness. Horse who wins in Carriage Pleasure shows would never place at QH driving shows. His equipment, style of going, would be too different from the AQHA "normal look" of your videos. Breed shows write their own rules, it is their set of "ideals" for driving.

My horse could not perform what I want of him, going along with his head down, no self balance, no use of his motor behind. I want MUCH overstep every stride, so his front-end needs to lighten up, be more flexible with his weight shifted to hindquarters. Be truly collected, driving power from behind, not just have head on the vertical. Horses in video, are doing what their drivers want of them. Just different expectations in our "driving" useages. My horse should look more like a Dressage horse, when gathered up to perform. His head above withers to shift weight to hindquarters, putting power in the rear.

So before we go any further, I need to know what kind of driving you plan for your QH.

[sublimequine]

It sounds like your harness just doesn't fit your horse. I would not try to make it fit, but sell it, buy one that is the correct size. It might be best if you just measured her, ordered a harness made to fit her. Few out-of-the-box harnesses fit actual horses. Proportions are always off. Lots of harness makers around, not any more expensive to make a custom size for her. She will be much happier with equipment that fits correctly, comfortably.

My main question is whether you plan to show her in AQHA Driving classes? Her style of low-head, slow moving, as shown in the video, is not suitable for the Carriage Driving classes of a Pleasure Driving show. QH driving has a very different set of expectations, equipment used, than Carriage Driving does. I am pretty sure you are REQUIRED to use the overcheck in your QH breed shows, along with the light carts and a Fine Harness style harness. Horse who wins in Carriage Pleasure shows would never place at QH driving shows. His equipment, style of going, would be too different from the AQHA "normal look" of your videos. Breed shows write their own rules, it is their set of "ideals" for driving.

My horse could not perform what I want of him, going along with his head down, no self balance, no use of his motor behind. I want MUCH overstep every stride, so his front-end needs to lighten up, be more flexible with his weight shifted to hindquarters. Be truly collected, driving power from behind, not just have head on the vertical. Horses in video, are doing what their drivers want of them. Just different expectations in our "driving" useages. My horse should look more like a Dressage horse, when gathered up to perform. His head above withers to shift weight to hindquarters, putting power in the rear.

So before we go any further, I need to know what kind of driving you plan for your QH.

I don't want to show, driving would only be for fun. I don't expect her to carry herself like a Dressage-trained horse, I actually started her out in Dressage, and it just didn't work for her. I'm a firm believer in taking advantage of a horse's natural talents, and my downhill, flat-kneed, low-headset, long-backed mare's natural talents don't include Dressage. She moves like the horses in that video naturally, albeit not as smooth and polished, but same basic principles. So that's how I want her to move in harness. :)

[sublimequine]

The answer is "No" - the overcheck isn't used (or shouldn't be used) on anything outside of trotters, pacers, and saddlebreds. It is for keeping the head up... really up. Other breeds use a sidecheck which is used to prevent the head from going down far enough to eat grass. :cool::lol: You don't necessarily need a sidecheck, until the class description call for it.



Cruppers are used to keep the saddle in place and prevent it from slipping forward onto the shoulders. So a crupper should be comfortably loose enough to sit under the tail without pulling it upwards, but not drooping down to cover the anus.

I agree with goodhors -- it sounds like your harness is too small for your horse. Take some measurements, and talk to a good harness shop that sells light pleasure harness. They should be able to help you get what is appropriate.

Bet she would look wonderful put to an authentic western buckboard, too. :)

Some parts of it are too small; some are too big. The gig saddle, I had to punch extra holes in, because it was too big. The blind bridle that came with it is also too big. And yet, the breeching, crupper, and breastcollar (breastplate?) are too small. Basically, none of it fit perfectly. But at least it kinda works for just breaking her to wearing a harness. I use the gig saddle by itself with some driving reins to ground drive, and that works nicely at least. I can't say I'm happy with the purchase, though. Oh well, it wasn't a top-of-the-line piece of equipment, I knew that when I bought it. :lol:

[sublimequine]

Well, most gig saddle are big and wide -- you'd be better to exchange it for a regular driving saddle. It would probably fit your mare much better. You might look for a blinkered bridle in cob size -- I would think that would be the right type of fit for those pretty QH heads. :)

Oh goodness no, my mare isn't the halter-type QH with the refined pretty head. She's the big bulky foundation-style QH with a big fat head and humongous jowls. :lol:

And stupid question time.. what's the difference between a gig saddle and a regular driving saddle? Maybe what I have isn't a gig saddle. :confused:

[sublimequine]

All QH have cute heads! A big fat jowl is perfect for having lots of room to pat! :lol:

A gig saddle (http://home.comcast.net/~truston/stanhopegig.html) is a very full width saddle, about 4" in width. A pleasure saddle (http://www.walnuthillfarm.com/gallery2007/slides/IMG_0732.html) is about 2 1/2"-3"

Well by your description, it's about 4 inches wide. But it looks more like the second picture.

I am so clueless. It's just shameful. :lol:

[Trakehner]

Repeat after me....I need to get a harness that fits, I need to get a harness that fits...I really need to get a harness that fits!

Did you convince yourself?

You're new to driving, so's your horse...you do not want anything with 4 wheels except the truck to get thee to the barn.

You want a 2-wheeler...most imprortant thing in a harness for a 2-wheeler...is a WIDE saddle. None of those 2-3" pleasure saddles, they're for 4-wheeled vehicles putting no weight on the horse's back. You want the 4" wide saddle. Your horse will be unhappy with a narrow saddle, too much weight on too little area.

Gig saddles are great, the big difference is the tugs float and are able to move to respond to the carts position which evens out the load on the horse's saddle and back...They aren't that much more expensive and provide a nicer element of comfort for your horse.

Get a harness made custom for your horse...you'll only need one and for the little bit of additional cost is worth it for your horse's comfort and your safety.

[pricestory]

I don't know about others, but Country Carriages USA will take your measurements and sell you the pieces of whatever size harness you need to fit your horse, no price difference for getting a bigger or smaller of anything.
And although she, Claudette, will sell you a side check if you request it, none of the harnesses come with overcheck or side checks.

[goodhors]

I would agree that you should get a harness with the 4" wide saddle of a pleasure harness. As Trakehner said, the 2 1/2" wide saddles are for 4 wheel vehicles. They are designed to carry no-weight shafts only, don't need width to spread out the weight load of cart shafts with passengers. A 4" wide pad will look nice on your horse with either a 2 or 4 wheel vehicle, if you only want to own one harness. I also think a larger horse looks better in wider saddle harness, proportions are better.

I will agree that shafts on a 2-wheel cart SHOULD float, there are times it won't be possible. Going uphill and down, rough ground, the tugloops will take weight, passengers shifting on seats, getting in and out of vehicle, all put load weight on the horse's back. I want a wider saddle, 4", on my horse for those times. I tell folks asking about new harness to get the wider, 4" saddle to use for all occasions they will drive. This means I recommend any horse wears a 4" harness saddle ALL THE TIME. I don't always know when horse will have to hold the weight of shafts, hold back the vehicle or if shafts will be floating during his outing. People go many places driving, terrain varies, loads shift, so horse is harnessed to be comfortable all the time.

You don't need a true Gig pad on your harness, unless you buy a large, heavy cart. These typically carry 4 passengers, or are heavily built vehicles. A true Gig pad for a horse, is six inches wide or more, again to spread out the load of cart shafts and weight of passengers. They cost a bunch more than any regular 4" wide pleasure harness saddle will.

When you try on a harness, you want ALL straps to buckle in the center hole, most all the time. This allows you room to take up the strap or let it out a little, for seasonal weight or hair growth changes. You never want to be always in the tightest hole. If strap breaks or horse quits holding his breath, you have no place to take up space. You want blinkers of bridle to have eyeball in their center, wide enough browband not to pull headstall forward. Throatlatch should be rather snug at all times, no chance of bridle slipping off sweaty head, so you could lose control of horse.

This is why you measure horse, so new harness fits HER in the best way. QH have their own fitting issues, so do other breeds and ponies. Best way to avoid problems is to fit the individual animal with good measurements. Here is a measuring diagram:

http://www.smuckersharness.com/pg3.html

If you don't plan to compete, you should look at the synthetic harness. Almost no upkeep beyond hosing off for dust. Strong and comfortable with new materials available. Get the best buckles possible on your harness. We use stainless stee buckles for strength and no rust. Brass is very common as harness metal, but needs polishing all the time.

ALWAYS get harness buckles with STEEL tongues, never brass or thin wire tongues. Brass corrodes, bends easily as do the thin wire tongues. You can have the best harness strapgoods of leather or synthetics, but if buckle tongues are wire or junky, buckle failure will get you in trouble.

You are not required to use an overcheck or sidecheck on the bridle to hold horse's head up. Most carriage drivers don't use check reins of any kind. Other folks use them because the harness came with it. Lot of traditional use of checkreins in the Amish community, Midwest, just because "they alway used a check on a driving horse". Can be hard on a horse not used to it, especially if check is too short or badly adjusted. You are also not required to use a snaffle, ring sided bit to drive if horse needs more bit. Bits can be a discussion of it's own, same as riding. Bitless bridles, sidepulls are NOT recommended for driving.

[Thomas_1]

You've had some good advice here.... Excellent in fact and all for free ;)

Just to endorse:

Don't force your horse to make do with poor fitting harness - get harness that fits

You don't need overchecks

Ensure your carriage is well balanced

Get help from an experienced driver.

[sublimequine]

You've had some good advice here.... Excellent in fact and all for free ;)

Just to endorse:

Don't force your horse to make do with poor fitting harness - get harness that fits

You don't need overchecks

Ensure your carriage is well balanced

Get help from an experienced driver.

Check, check, and check! :lol:

It's going to be a long while before I can afford a carriage or vehicle of any sort, and I want to get in a ton more driving lessons before I even bother.

Would it still be okay to ground-drive my mare in the pleasure saddle that came with the harness? All I do in it is walk, with the occasional few strides of a trot. I basically use it as a surcingle. Should I not use it anyways though?

[MSP]

OP, I think we own the same harness (although mine is over 30 years old)!

My saddle is as you described yours; seems to be around 4" but looks like the second picture. Mine has an over check also.

I used my harness on my Standardbred for trail driving with a jog cart. I too have a foundation QH and they are built different from the average horse. I have not tried my harness on her but I suspect I will have a problem also. I don't plan on driving her for many years from now so I won't be sharing your pain for a while! ;)

[sublimequine]

OP, I think we own the same harness (although mine is over 30 years old)!

My saddle is as you described yours; seems to be around 4" but looks like the second picture. Mine has an over check also.

I used my harness on my Standardbred for trail driving with a jog cart. I too have a foundation QH and they are built different from the average horse. I have not tried my harness on her but I suspect I will have a problem also. I don't plan on driving her for many years from now so I won't be sharing your pain for a while! ;)

Besides western saddles, big foundationy QHs are a nightmare to fit in EVERY PIECE OF TACK IMAGINABLE. Her saddle was just as hard, and I'm thinking if I ever want to get into driving seriously, a custom-made harness made right to her own specific measurements is in order. I can see the dollar signs already.. :lol::lol::lol:

[Renae]

Besides western saddles, big foundationy QHs are a nightmare to fit in EVERY PIECE OF TACK IMAGINABLE. Her saddle was just as hard, and I'm thinking if I ever want to get into driving seriously, a custom-made harness made right to her own specific measurements is in order. I can see the dollar signs already.. :lol::lol::lol:

Actually if you are dealing with a good, domestic harness maker like Smucker's or some of the smaller guys in Pennsylvania they will help you measure your horse correctly and put together a harness that will fit for not an outrageous amount for a good working harness. I have been having tack made at a shop in Kutztown, PA, called Leid Shoes & Saddlery, like $18 for a custom sized, well made biothane headstall. Online the people selling custom made biotahne tack want like $40-$50 for jut a simple headstall!

I think for ground driving/long lining I would just get a good sturdy web surcingle with lots of rings, often when you are long lining you want to put the reins through a lowere ring than the rein turrets on a harness backpad.