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dressagetraks
Sep. 26, 2007, 02:29 PM
Was just watching the 1984 Derby from my collection of horse videos over lunch. Got to thinking about Swale and what he might have been as a sire. He was so similar to Slew, and Slew did have other successful sons. I've always been curious how Swale would have done. Huge blow for Claiborne with his loss.

Who are some others you have always been curious about, horses who never got a chance at stud but who you think could have made worthwhile contributions to the breed?

Starting with the obvious: Barbaro.

skatepixie
Sep. 26, 2007, 07:54 PM
The most disappointing (not the saddest, that would be Barbaro or Swale, but the most shockingly disappointing from a pure breeding standpoint) is Cigar. I've always wondered what his babies would have been.

Then there are the geldings I wish weren't. John Henry. The Tin Man. Lava Man.

In jumpers, Gem Twist...hands down. Id love his bloodlines!

Mali
Sep. 26, 2007, 08:38 PM
Aw...you just had to mention Swale:sadsmile: I was 14 and absolutely in love with him when he died.

blackstallion
Sep. 26, 2007, 08:41 PM
Lost in the Fog

Acertainsmile
Sep. 26, 2007, 09:21 PM
St. Liam... I know he covered mares before his accident, such a shame... we have a filly by his half brother...

Slewdledo
Sep. 26, 2007, 09:31 PM
Funny Cide :winkgrin:

libgrrl
Sep. 26, 2007, 09:53 PM
Dubai Millenium and Forego

Slewdledo
Sep. 26, 2007, 09:56 PM
Kelso & John Henry, too. (Can you imagine advertising John Henry as a stallion, off those homely bloodlines?)

TKR
Sep. 26, 2007, 10:51 PM
Not to steal the thread -- but some of the fabulous fillies that didn't produce (or produce much) --
Ruffian (no brainer)
Landaluce
Genuine Risk (only 1 or 2)
Lambchop (anyone remember her?)

others of the male persuasion:

Precisionist (not very fertile -- few foals)
War Emblem (has he gotten any mares in foal?)
Exterminator -- another plebian pedigree that just defied the odds
Shergar (just a few -- sadly missed)
Arkle (great steeplechaser)
Twenty Grand (sterile)
Capot (sterile)
Black Gold

PennyG

WhiteCamry
Sep. 27, 2007, 11:27 AM
Phar Lap
Exterminator
Jay Trump
Desert Orchid
McDynamo
Golden Miller
Red Rum

Slewdledo
Sep. 27, 2007, 11:37 AM
Triple Crown winner Assault

War Emblem has some foals but he didn't get any mares in foal this year.

Beaver Breeze
Sep. 27, 2007, 02:14 PM
Izvestia.

Freebird!
Sep. 27, 2007, 02:41 PM
Keen and Big Ben

Tucked_Away
Sep. 27, 2007, 03:00 PM
Then there are the geldings I wish weren't. John Henry.

Though with a horse like that, it's kind of a Catch-22. Would John Henry have run like John Henry if he'd been left entire? No way to know.

Linny
Sep. 27, 2007, 08:16 PM
Based on pedigree and any offfspring that did exist for stallions that died young, Swale is atop my list for recent vintage. By Slew, from a great female family he'd likely have been a nice sire. Lure is another. He was seriously sub fertile but sired some nice horses. In the history of the breed though, the top spot has to go to Domino. He sired only about 20 foals and yet his sireline still exists today, over a hundred years beyond his death. Imagine his influence had he lived longer.

The Dubai Millenium babies were an overall flop so in retrospect (judging by what he left behind) his death is not as huge a loss to the breed as thought.

Most of the great geldings would have been flops as colts so they never would have gotten the mares needed to succeed.

abrant
Sep. 28, 2007, 06:49 PM
I have the one stallion promotion video for Cigar (that I got for 25 cents at a thrift store in Cedar Rapids, Iowa of all places).

They have him stood up and mention "perfect conformation" and you look at him... and damnit, they're right. A LOVELY horse.

texang73
Sep. 30, 2007, 09:58 PM
Though with a horse like that, it's kind of a Catch-22. Would John Henry have run like John Henry if he'd been left entire? No way to know.

From everything I know and have read about him, probably not. He wasn't focused enough as a colt... so... Snip, snip!

As for the "what ifs":
John Henry
Exterminator
Black Gold
Phar Lap
Cigar (lovely horse with a lovely personality)

BUT, let's be honest, generally the very best racehorses don't/ didn't make the best daddies... If I knew why, I'd be rich!

WhiteCamry
Oct. 2, 2007, 01:10 PM
I believe E. P. Taylor once remarked that if he'd gelded all his stallions only Northern Dancer would have been a mistake.

Linny
Oct. 2, 2007, 02:52 PM
It was Vanderbilt who said it. Had he gelded all his colts he'd have made only one mistake, Native Dancer. (But what a terrible mistake it would have been!)

IMO, the biggest losses to the breed were the few exceptionally bred and conformed animals who died very young. As great as Cigar was, he was really not that well bred for a sire. Most breeders will tell you that sires should have talent and even more importantly, FAMILY. There is also some merit to the "sire of sires" argument. Northern Dancer and Bold Ruler come to mind as sires of sires As good as Barbaro was, what has Dynaformer sired that sired anything good? Barbaro at least had great family. I read a great article on breeding featuring interviews with top breeders, Seth Hancock, Alice Chandler etc. They mentioned that certain female families seem to produce sires while others produce top RUNNERS, the colts from these families are rarely good sires. An example given was the foundation mare Bourtai. She has about 50 stakes winners under her but not a top level sire among them. Turkoman was from this family. He was a top class racer but a modest sire, though his fillies have been nice producers, again a testament to the strength of the female line.

I have to go back and get some stats on Domino, his influence is unreal considering how few foals he got.

ASB Stars
Oct. 2, 2007, 03:47 PM
And it might- Domino's influence is even more fascinating, because most of it comes through his son- Commando. It isn't even like the rest had a high percentage of influence compared to him- if I remember right.

Please let me know what you find out- I'd love to hear! :yes:

TKR
Oct. 2, 2007, 06:28 PM
I believe Commando was produced from a Domino daughter as well as by Domino. A fairly common looking mare at that.
PennyG

sm
Oct. 2, 2007, 07:42 PM
Gem Twist

WhiteCamry
Oct. 4, 2007, 10:17 AM
I believe Commando was produced from a Domino daughter as well as by Domino. A fairly common looking mare at that.
PennyG

http://www.pedigreequery.com/commando

Commando's dam was Emma C. (Darebin (AUS) - Guenn (Flood)). His nearest inbreeding was to Lexington beginning some four generations back through his sire, but he had absolutely no Domino on his dam side.