Welsh info, please

[horseyfolks]

The newest post on small ponies being driven has raised a question for me. Gothedistance said a Welsh that size was not to small.

I have asked others and still don't understand the Welsh sizes... Seems there is an "A", "B", "C", and "D" Welsh. I think this refers to size, no? If it does refer to size what are the numbers for each size? Is it a difference in Welsh Breeding in that say, an "A" Welsh is a different breed than say, a "C" Welsh similar to the different breeds of Warmbloods?

Don

[stryder]

Don:
There's a very good explanation here in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_pony

Section A ponies may also be referred to as Welsh Mountain Ponies. The breeding among the sections is different, but they are all Welsh.

They're wonderful ponies!

[horseyfolks]

Thanks stryder2.... I'm trying to understand this "section" thing. I understand from your link the sizes which define the section A and the section C. Section A is no taller than 12.2 hh. Section C is no taller than 13.2 hh. Now it starts to be confusing (please be patient.... I'm trying to learn here)

A Section B and a section D can both be 14.2 hh. At the lower end a Section B, C, or D can all be 13.2 hh.

If this is the case then am I correct in assuming the only way to tell the difference between the sections is by looks? Sam's Driving pony is 14.2 and a section D....

I've looked at his papers and can't see anything that says why he is not a section B or why he is a section D. According to the sizes listed for the United States he is the correct size for a B or D.

Can a pony be identified as to section by DNA?

While on the subject of breeds..... Sam's Welsh Pony is of multiple Registrations. Is he first a Welsh Section D Cob or is he first a German Riding Pony? He is inspected and approved at both. I assume his registration as an American Sport Pony is after the first two registrations because he is imported? All of the registrations are on seperate paperwork.

Don

[stryder]

Don:
I hope others can give you a more complete answer. My experience outside of section A and B is limited and doesn't extend to multiple registrations.

I don't think DNA checks will get you anything. My family raised Mountain ponies, but from time to time, would have a foal that just kept .... growing. My brother's riding pony grew to be a section B, despite being a third- or fourth generation Section A. So he was registered (as weanling) as a section A, but would have been shown as a section B.

My guess is that the reverse also would be true, that a foal with bloodlines from larger ponies (and registered as a C, for example) would just stop growing and compete and/or be marketed as a B. It's just impossible to tell when they're registered as foals how much (or little) they'll grow!

Now I'll wait with you to hear from others! :)

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=horseyfolks;2702792]Thanks stryder2.... I'm trying to understand this "section" thing.

in Wales they are considered 4 breeds....in the USA they are 4 divisions of one breed...(unless you are on my farm in which we hold to the Welsh ideals and I have all four welsh breeds here and accounted for :lol:)

considering them all one breed allows for some nice pedigree muddiling which is pretty consistant over the last 40 years

and the Cobs and poines of Cob type are so unpopular that only in the last few decades have their pedigrees even been kept by the association...it was left to Ms Hope Ingersoll to do at Penrhyn up in Mass....


the american hunter ponies overall are A or B section partbreds and "lost papers" of more than a few A to B crosses and so on....the C and D make smoking big moving harness ponies as in Wales their breed driving classes are not unlike in hand but in harness...!!!:yes::)

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

I've looked at his papers and can't see anything that says why he is not a section B or why he is a section D. According to the sizes listed for the United States he is the correct size for a B or D.

Don


hi again....your boy is a D by blood....(the best way to be a D by the way:winkgrin:) he is not a B because he lacks the blood that made up the B breed back in the 1950's after the second war when that breed was created....

it could be properly called the Welsh Riding Pony but back then they chose the name Welsh Pony while the A's were Welsh Mountain Ponies and the C 's are a Welsh Pony of Cob Type (the implication there is that it is a riding pony but showing cobby traits) and finally the Welsh Cobs who (while descended in a round about way from the Welsh Mountain Pony),have some impressive pedigrees back 150 or more years....and tell a Cob man " 'es leading a wee pony" and you'll have a fight I promise:lol::lol:

the legalists declare that only the Section B's may be called Welsh Ponies....as to GRP or Cob...well I'd rather have a cob ;)

Tamara in TN

[Ashemont]

While on the subject of breeds..... Sam's Welsh Pony is of multiple Registrations. Is he first a Welsh Section D Cob or is he first a German Riding Pony? He is inspected and approved at both. I assume his registration as an American Sport Pony is after the first two registrations because he is imported? All of the registrations are on seperate paperwork.

I'm not sure how it works with ponies but the Germans are quite clear about horses only have ONE original registration paper; it's illegal to do otherwise. They can, however, have multiple APPROVALS for breeding purposes. I would suggest that you contact each association and clarify this.

One thing I can tell you is that Brondo is NOT a Polish Driving Pony but he certainly could be approved as one for breeding :winkgrin: :lol:

[kearleydk]

You've raised a couple of questions in my mind. Don you said he's been inspected both as a Welsh and a GRP. Are there inspections for Welsh? I've got people in Caspians oposed to stallion inspections for various reasons and they claim no other BREED requires inspection. They say only TYPES get inspected. I favor inspections in principle.

Ashemont you say only one registration. Hmm, I own a horse with an Australian registry number, an international number, and a US number. Also can't a horse be dual registered as a Paint and a Quarter horse? Are there other examples of multiple registration?

We are drifting toward sport horse breeding here but please let the thread hang as Brondo is a sure enough driving pony and a number of us drivers intend to follow all his adventures.

Dick

[Tamara in TN]

You've raised a couple of questions in my mind. Don you said he's been inspected both as a Welsh and a GRP. Are there inspections for Welsh? .

Dick

on the Continent, most animal breeds are inspected....not in Wales really other than a stallion license...but go to Sweden or Germany or such and the ponies and Cobs imported from Wales are then inspected and approved....my own stallions father was born in Wales (as was he)but he makes Coblets in Sweden where he now lives...and I can check their scores from there...

Brondo was born by blood a welsh cob...he got approved as a GRP later....like being a Quarter horse who got approved to be a barrel horse or a Quarter horse who got approved to be a cutter (if there were such approval's here in the USA) once the horse does well in Cutting they are generally then known as "cutters" and they and their pedigrees are maintained outside the normal ranks of Quarter Horse Blood...

which is to say while nothing is "official", if you have a son of Peponita who did well in Cutting you'd never do something so stupid as to beed it to a Kid Clu daughter....as she is Halter horse and he is a Cutter...even in the same breed they are too different to intermingle and hope for something useful to be created

Tamara in TN

[Thomas_1]

UK perspective - and of course this is the home of Welsh Ponies ;)

First the breed standard does indeed have a height factor. But its important to note that what makes a welsh A pony a welsh A is that its the product of 2 proven and registered welsh A ponies. So it may well have grown to top the height as dictated by the breed standard, but it doesn't become a welsh B and likewise you can't double register it.

[goeslikestink]

heres link to the english welsh cob society www.wpcs.uk.com

[Wowelsh]

While they may be recorded as 4 breeds in the UK, it's a bit difficult to conceive of that way...at least in the way most US breeds are understood. I don't know if there is an equivalent, since in this case the "breeds" can be bred to one another to produce purebreds.

Thomas...in the U.S. an "A" who goes over height may be registered as a "B". Of course, we also have our 14.2 h B's. ;) . Not saying this is right...just that it is. I'm still wondering what becomes of a B that goes over 14.2...other than being relocated to behind the barn. Probably could be registered as a Half-Welsh.

Don....here are the possibilities for creating each Section (in the U.S.), as far as blood goes:

A = AxA (not to exceed 12.2 h)
B = BxB, BxA (or AxA if it exceeds 12.2 h)
C = DxD, DxC, DxB, DxA, CxC, CxB, CxA (though the "B" blood is discouraged and frowned on by most Cob breeders) Height not to exceed 13.2 h.
D = same as for C, except height must exceed 13.2 hands.

To add to the alphabet soup confusion, in the past, the U.S. allowed B blood (AxB and I believe even small BxB's), to be registered as A's, if they didn't exceed 12.2 h. This rule was reversed, but IMO the damage was done. You can still find A's without B blood, but one has to be aware. I've purchased a few from Canada.

As far as labling him as GRP or Cob...I'd definitely say Cob. There are undoubtedly years of effort/study that went into creating him as a Section D, while the GRP inspection was a day in his life. I know a lady with imported New Forest Pony stallions...one of whom was recently approved as GRP/Weser Ems. Her opinion is that he will ALWAYS be a New Forest Pony, but he is "approved for breeding" with Weser Ems. IMO that's the right way to lean.

[goeslikestink]

i have a welsh cob sec d and she has a and c in her blood line but shes 14.3h
she registered as section d she has all the top bloodlines in her parantage