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View Full Version : Sheepishly asking about Friesians.....



WBLover
Sep. 25, 2007, 09:03 AM
Because---being the WB lover that I am (European, that is), I never thought I'd even consider any Friesian, let alone a part bred of such.....

I keep replaying a video of a Friesian/Shire/Paint cross filly that's for sale over and over and over, trying to find something wrong with her why she wouldn't make a REALLY nice dressage horse. But I just can't, except that her head and feet are proportionally too big for the rest of her right now, but she's only 2 and perhaps she'll fill out into them. She's very refined, too (except for the feet, and maybe once I shave off those feathers they aren't so big!). But man, can she MOVE!! And has a GREAT walk, so it's not all about that fancy trot.

So, my question is, what are weaknesses/training issues that Friesians can have? Do they tend to have poor/weak canters like draft horses? This girl seems pretty engaged in all gaits, to me. But maybe I'm blinded by all that freedom and reach in her gaits...

PLEASE, talk me out of this.....

SillyHorse
Sep. 25, 2007, 09:16 AM
I would not consider a full Friesian, but I have seen some might fine Friesian crosses. Sorry, I won't be talking you out of this one based solely on the fact that she's a Friesian cross.

artisticgold
Sep. 25, 2007, 09:19 AM
Well, I'm not going to talk you out of it, but I won't talk you INTO it either (unless you really want me to) lol....

I have a 4 year old purebred Friesian (now gelded) that looks like he is going to make a FANTASTIC dressage horse. He has 3 pure gaits, and his canter is fabulous. He does have some knee action at the trot, but he reaches out and extends and has quite a bit of suspension and rhythm. He's not a big fellow, only 15.1H, but I think that may be an advantage as he won't be too large and heavy. I have always loved warmbloods, and owned many, mine actually reminds me a lot of a good warmblood. I know many dressage folks don't take Friesians seriously, but I always think you have to look at the individual horse, not a stereotype. There are many talented horses in every breed, you just have to find them. The usual problems in the Friesians are too long of a back/too small of a hindquarter, and a weak canter. However, there are Friesians that have great length of back, big, powerful hindquarter, and lovely canters. You have to train them a bit differently, getting them to stretch down and round first, as they tend to give you a false sense of collection too early on. Oh, they sometimes have a little problem with endurance and take longer to condition, but perhaps a cross-bred would have less difficulty with that.

I'd love to see this filly you are looking at. She sounds like she could be quite lovely. I would say to go with your gut feeling, but perhaps have a few people you trust look at her, or the video too. I don't think you could lose out, if you did buy her, and she wasn't exactly what you wanted. Grow her up a bit, start her under saddle, and I'm sure she would be very saleable. Hey, life is an adventure, and it's fun to step outside of the box every now and then...

pintopiaffe
Sep. 25, 2007, 09:31 AM
I have a custom foal on my farm right now, she'll be 3 months in a couple of weeks. She is 1/4 Friesian, 1/4 Dutch, out of my NSH mare.

She is simply amazing. She is better built and a better mover than my Sempatico colt out of my Trak mare--and he was nothing to sneeze at, attaining a very high 7.8 Silver at his inpsections!

I am so impressed that I am looking to breed this mare back to a similarly bred Friesian X next year. STill not 100%, as I'm worried about the rideability of those big gaits (read: can *I* sit them without pain?) But temperament, movement and conformation-wise, I am blown away.

Elegante E
Sep. 25, 2007, 09:37 AM
Sorry, won't talk you out of her either. Friesians can have issues that make them not as good at dressage - some of them. Schute-Kery had an article in a recent DT about Friesians and training them for dressage. Mostly, it's a matter of neck set and strength of loin and hind end. They can have problems with canter and must be trained to reach out and come over their back - they can easily get a "fake" canter which isn't really through but looks good because of neck set. Oh, and some can have issues with heat during the summer, the pure ones, haven't found it in the mixed.

That said, I have two crosses and they don't have those issues at all. They are lovely movers withgreat canters. My older one took his first canter without a hitch and kept it till I brought him down. He reaches forward and uses his back well and naturally. Sitting his trot is a pleasure! He's still young, and a kind of lazy, so am not sure how he'll advance but so far I have great hopes. Have also talked with others who own crosses and they love them - seriously, it all depends on the individuals used for the cross.

Beware of one thing, that refined two year old with the big feet may catch up with the feet. My older boy at two looked like a three year old - was mistaken for an older horse at an inspection. He was lovely. Still is but now is more the moose than the refined. My younger one is more refined, at two, and I'm waiting to see how he fills out - looks like an immature two year old after his moose like brother. Look at a pic of the filly at around 3 months if you can. That may give you some idea of how she'll finish.

WBLover
Sep. 25, 2007, 10:37 AM
Thanks so much for the input so far....I'm afraid to post her link but I will. First of all because she may be so nice someone else will snatch her up, and second because if she's really not all that I don't want her to be picked apart when the owner may post here and didn't want her blasted all over a forum.

So if you do critique and find fault, please be constructive about it but let me know. And if you do like her, please let me have first dibs!!

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-50991

The link to the video is in the body of the ad. It's a long one, though. At the end it shows the lady riding her bareback with no bridle (she's a lightweight lady so I'm not worried that she's sitting on her already) and shows her really nice walk and nice temperament.

Dapple Dawn Farm
Sep. 25, 2007, 12:55 PM
Oh, I like her a lot! (not to worry though, I'm not in the market for another horse)

gr8fulrider
Sep. 25, 2007, 01:28 PM
She's awful purty but she could get BIG. Are you okay with that?

Petstorejunkie
Sep. 25, 2007, 02:01 PM
She looks awefully straight thru her hind end, perhaps because of her age. I like her movement too.... but she's awefully pricey for a mixed breed.

WBLover
Sep. 25, 2007, 02:13 PM
Big, as in tall, I can handle, but I don't want CHUNKY or HEAVY big. I had an old-style Hanoverian mare that was a tank, but was only 16.1H. She was very difficult to get my leg around and put her together.

I did see the straight hind legs, but honestly I don't usually fault horses for that. There's so many WB's out there with straight hocks that have lots of flexibility in the hocks and stay sound for years. My old style Han mare I mentioned above had VERY straight hocks, but she had 100% clean hock x-rays at 11 years old, and very good hock action.

What I fault more is the straighter more open hip angle, which this mare does have and I am taking into account.

pinecone
Sep. 25, 2007, 03:39 PM
I would not consider a full Friesian, but I have seen some might fine Friesian crosses. Sorry, I won't be talking you out of this one based solely on the fact that she's a Friesian cross.

I agree with her.

I have seen some very nice Friesian crosses, a lot of people like them better than purebreds. If they are well bred, the crosses are usually better suited for dressage than the purebreds.

This is a nice mare, and fairly priced. I had seen her before. She is one of the few horses which was on that silly fugly horse blog, whom everyone LIKED. (She was on there because the blogger was poking fun at the owner and the photo of her sitting on her barefoot and backwards and with no bridle.)

If you visit the Sporthorse Breeder's forum you may be able to find some of the threads discussing Friesian crosses. Two farms which people speak very highly of are www.nicopintostallion.com and www.riveroaksfarm.net . You may be able to learn more about Friesian crosses by visiting those sites also.

That mare was getting a lot of attention. I'm surprised nobody has bought her yet.

Donella
Sep. 25, 2007, 03:55 PM
First of all, let it be known that I am a big wb fan. I got into Hanoverians a few years ago, and just recently purchased two new hano mares for my program. I am highly attracted to the breeds overall success as dressage horses and the stringent and selective process of it all.

That being said, we have also had friesians for a number of years. Just got home from the Keuring yesterday actually. Interestingly there was a highly rated dressage judge that had contacted the fps and had asked to be in the ring with the dutch judges just to better learn about the breed she is seeing more and more of in the dressage ring. I thought that was intereting.

The friesian can be a competative dressage horse, they are proving it more and more in competition. They need a different approach due to the fact that their conformation is different than horses specifically bred for a hundred years to do sport. But look around, find me one other non traditional breed that is winning HOY open awards at fei, winning huge dressage classes in wellington and other super competative CDI events like Goffert did ( His Grand Prix scores in the same level of competation are higher in some cases than those averaged by our canadian team members). Then look at this years FEI young horse championships. The number 5 horse in the 6 yr old class was a purebred friesian. Everything else , in all the other classes, were warmbloods, mostly euro bred, euro lines. Look at the USDF open year end awards, there are an unproportionate amount of friesians in there over the last couple of year. They are still a very rare breed. Someone show me this many arabs, qh's, saddlebreds or non wb doing this well and then take into account the differences in population size.

In addition, a disproportionate amount are doing well when they are put into correct training. More and more top trainers are riding them and doing well: we all know Sabine Schut Kery and her multiple medals and HOY open FEI awards on numerous friesians. Chris Hickey has won alot on a freisian that is in his barn, Imke Bartels has numerous friesians in her barn that she competes and most of us know of Jane Savoie, whos personal dressage mount is a purebred friesian. Then there is Iron Spring Farms, probably the biggest , most successful wb breeding farm for dutch horses in NA. They saw the potential, and now they stand and compete 4 friesian stallions.

I do not mean to say that all friesians are natural dressage horses. I would guess it would be around the 20 percent of the breed mark, and much less in terms of FEI talent. The chances are much more slim than if I were to go out into a feild of super hanoverians and randomly pick one, obviously. But in terms of going with a non wb, I personally don't think there is a better choice( in my unbiased opinion lol). The friesians are just SO suited to being an amateur riders mount. The try and heart these horses have is unparralled. I kid you not, that when I go out to feed my friesians, I can feed them and then stand on the other side of the paddock and call and they leave the food and come running, usually with a nicker. They are SO personable. There is not another breed of horse with their temperments and I think that makes them an excellent choice for the amateur rider looking to find something fun and beautiful with the possibility of being fairly competative if it is so desired (assuming they are selective in their choice).

So, from one wb breeder and lover to another, I highly recommend the friesian horse. I do not have experience with the crossbreds, but in regards to the purebreds, those are my feelings.

edited to ad that in terms of partbreds being more suited..I don't buy it. Show me evidence of this. Last time I checked there were about ten times the amount of partbreds for sale, and I have not seen one that is winning in the league that some friesians are..unless I have missed a bunch of them.

Elegante E
Sep. 25, 2007, 04:17 PM
If you are concerned about barrel width, I would be a tad worried. Some Friesians are heavier and most are pretty wide barrelled. She also has draft blood which tends to come through. The filly has lots of bone for a two year old so will be filling out quite a bit.

One thing I did notice is that she is close behind which is very common in Friesians. She'll probably need bell boots.

Have to say, she is nice, but I didn't love her canter. It was springy in the wrong way, almost two footed.

Cowgirl
Sep. 25, 2007, 05:04 PM
[QUOTE=Donella;2703229]But in terms of going with a non wb, I personally don't think there is a better choice( in my unbiased opinion lol). The friesians are just SO suited to being an amateur riders mount.[QUOTE]

I disagree with this statement. I know several amateurs mounted on friesians who are very frustrated riders. Yes, they have fantastic temperments and can be easy to handle, but to ride them, unless you have TONS of money to spend on getting the very top dressage specimens of the breed, you can end up with the typical friesian riding problems: lack of forward engine, noodle neck, plank-like body, disconnect between hind and front end, and trailing hind legs. Yes, they require a training approach that is different from warmbloods, but not all people riding them have access to trainers who specialize in this breed.

So I personally do not think friesians, as popular as they are, are the best choice for an amateur ride, unless you can buy a well trained, dressage bred one.

And as for buying a mixed breed horse, you can get lucky, but for the most part, it's a huge gamble as to what you might end up with. Even when you are buying tried and true breeding (for example, a Donnerhall x Rubenstein oldenburg), it's a gamble to buy a young horse. I wouldn't buy this horse myself, unless it was almost completely mature and I could ride it.

pintopiaffe
Sep. 25, 2007, 05:11 PM
I suspect she'll be a tank.

I don't think the numbers are up there as yet for crossbreds, because it's really only quite recently the crossbreeding has been done at all (well, at least openly.) The one registry will revoke registration if a purebred is crossed. As recently as five years ago the number of stallions available for crossing were less than a handful, and not usually teh ones you'd *want* to cross, especially for dressage. ;)

I think you'll see more getting there as they age into the levels.

Auventera Two
Sep. 25, 2007, 05:16 PM
She's lovely! I wish they wouldn't have her advertised as a Warmblood though because Friesan/Shire/Paint does not equal warmblood. But she's a beautiful girl, and I too bet she'll be big. Good luck with whatever you decide! :)

WBLover
Sep. 25, 2007, 05:28 PM
Well, based on the fact that she probably will be a tank (I DON'T want another one of those) and that there may be training difficulties along the way, I think I'm going to pass. I really want an EASY one this time, and the best way to ensure that is to get one that's bred and built for the job.

Not to say that buying a Euro WB guarantees that either, of course....

Elegante E
Sep. 25, 2007, 05:56 PM
If that's how you feel, definitely buy older, trained horse. Those are the easiest :)

Bronte
Sep. 25, 2007, 06:10 PM
Good decision, I think she is sweet, however, she has a really lateral canter and the draft influence usually matures late and = tank...:eek:

trailhorse1
Sep. 25, 2007, 06:57 PM
I would think you need to define what dressage is for you. If you watch, study and believe dressage is currently what europeans and americans think dressage is, than no, the friesian is not the breed of choice nor is a cross a good choice.
If you truly know what dressage is than there realy is no better breed. A war horse is the friesian. A master, a noble steed that is taken into battle. A horse with courage, stamina, strength, agility and kindness.
This is where dressage comes from. Anyone who thinks otherwise, has no clue.
Not these artificial warmbloods that are created to look "pretty". And riders who just sit there and create crap.
Redefine what dressage is to you and do what you would like. If the horse pleases you than go for it.

andy825
Sep. 25, 2007, 07:17 PM
I knew I had seen this filly before. She was featured on the Fugly horse blog a while back, no no one thinks she's fugly. Here's the entry...

"I actually like this Friesian cross filly (see, just when you thought I hated them all), but what is with this picture? First of all, you shouldn't be sitting on a 2 year old Friesian/draft cross at all - that's way too young - and secondly, the sort of people who buy sport horses will think you are a total idiot for sitting on anything backwards in a ball cap and barefoot. If you are trying to look like a serious breeder/trainer/whatever it is you are, that is just not the way to go about it.
The same goes for the video where you trot the same filly for the camera wearing short-shorts and flip flops. You don't have to distract the buyer into looking at your ass instead of the filly's. You only have to do that with fugly horses. You need to go talk to the dealers - they will pay you good money to ride horses at auctions dressed like that."

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 25, 2007, 07:23 PM
I agree with trailhorse above. The first time I lunged a very fancy fresian I thought now this is the horse I want to have someday even if I never show again. To ride her around in my back yard would make me feel noble too!

Donella
Sep. 25, 2007, 07:23 PM
I disagree that you have to change dressage. Again, enough of them are competing and winning at the highest level in numerous countries and beating the best warmbloods, and none of the rules have changed. There are friesians that are capable of being up there with the big competative wb's.

Also, yes, I also think many amateurs are not capable of riding them or being able to train them. They probably aren't a good first horse to learn to ride . I just think its a viable option if you want to be competative ( most people who do are able to find a good trainer to work with) and yet that isnt the only thing, or you don't want a real hot horse like the modern wb's ect. And lets not leave out the eye appeal. They are gorgeous animals, and alot of people like a flashy horse. Nothing has more presence than a correct friesian stallion imho.

On top of this, all breeds that are not bred distinctly for dressage will have conformational issues to overcome. Very few horses are easy in that respect.

As for the friesians used for crossbreeding: There are some lovely ones, there really are but in general, it is the ones that never made the cut in the dutch registry. The dutch are now breeding very specifically for sport and riding horse qualities, ie long front legs, modern build, strong loin connections, shorter back and snappy, well used hind legs. If you look at the ones being bred these days( not the majority of the imported friesians ect) you would be shocked to see how far the breed has come over the last even 5-10 yrs. I don't think it'll be long before more and more of the breed are suited as dressage horses.

Carol O
Sep. 25, 2007, 08:23 PM
She's lovely. I was not a Friesian person either until recently when one found her way into my heart. I have a friend with a part bred who will be one of the one's to beat at our Regionals next week. I am a wb owner too, but I am really enjoying the willing disposition of my new girl (quite a change from my marvelous but opinionated old boy!). The Friesian disposition is wonderful, and they are earning high marks in competition too. No, I am not in the market, but if I was I wouldn't think about her too long!

What has frustrated me a bit with the breed people is the hair thing. When I see a really great stallion advertised and the first thing they talk about in the ad is the length of the mane.... I might brag on the scores for the gaits and disposition first... But that is me. That said, my 2 yr old Teade girl just loves to fling her head about throwing the mane about her neck like an adoescent girl with great hair might too!

Buy her.

Lin
Sep. 25, 2007, 10:30 PM
Draft horses get big - a solid 2 0r 3 yr old is a massive 5 or 6 yr old. Friesians and Shires are both big draft horses and a qh can be massive too.

I've known wiry 3 yr old qh and rangy 3 yr old drafties - but in the end , they were massive and struggled with dressage.

I'm EBO
Sep. 25, 2007, 10:47 PM
I have a Friesian who's 16hh now. I've had her since she was weaned. She had a hard time learning to canter in a circle, especially to the right. Her trot is bone jarring, but she's a carriage horse, so what did I expect? It was very difficult to find a saddle to accomodate her roundness.

She's a wonderful horse; I love her dearly and all my other horses love her as well. She soothes them. My favorite mental snapshot of her is of her standing under a shade tree with her farrier leaning on her butt--they were watching some people trying to saddle another horse who didn't want to be saddled in the near distance.

If I sent her to a dressage trainer for a year or so, she might become adept at the lower levels, but she'd be miserable and the trainer would probably pull her/his hair out.

~Freedom~
Sep. 26, 2007, 12:19 AM
I knew I had seen this filly before. She was featured on the Fugly horse blog a while back, no no one thinks she's fugly. Here's the entry...

"I actually like this Friesian cross filly (see, just when you thought I hated them all), but what is with this picture? First of all, you shouldn't be sitting on a 2 year old Friesian/draft cross at all - that's way too young - and secondly, the sort of people who buy sport horses will think you are a total idiot for sitting on anything backwards in a ball cap and barefoot. If you are trying to look like a serious breeder/trainer/whatever it is you are, that is just not the way to go about it.
The same goes for the video where you trot the same filly for the camera wearing short-shorts and flip flops. You don't have to distract the buyer into looking at your ass instead of the filly's. You only have to do that with fugly horses. You need to go talk to the dealers - they will pay you good money to ride horses at auctions dressed like that."

I also wonder about the quality of the seller when I see additional ads by the same person. Percheron/TB and it is also a dressage prospect?:no:

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-50990

Sabine
Sep. 26, 2007, 12:31 AM
I would never buy any horse that has draft in it for dressage. Just my 5 cents.
But I have a Friesian Cross that I love. He is Friesian/Saddlebred and I think he might just cut in the dressage world. We'll see still- I am the eternal doubter and utterly conservative in claiming any true fit here- but he is very well built, has an unbelievable hindend that is very well connected to the front...he has a great mind and is eager to work.

He is all around quite gorgeous and size wise will be just fine- however he is fine boned and very slinky- so the big challenge will be to transform that into elasticity and obedience...;)

I very much believe in SAddlebred crosses and Friesians- as well as some really good Morgans I have seen to be the new american dressage alternative. These horses have their own special requirements and needs- when it comes to training them correctly....;)

WBLover
Sep. 26, 2007, 10:54 AM
I did enquire about her before I had made up my mind and the seller was very nice, and sent me some more pictures. She is now riding her under saddle, which I DON'T like. All she is doing is walking, but still, this filly looks SOOOO immature to me and her hind end looks even weaker in the pics she sent me. I'd stay off this girl until at least next fall when she's 3 1/2, and not start serious work until the following spring. She's a gorgeous filly for what she is, but that hind end is so sharply sloped and her angles through the gaskins so straight I don't think she's going to cut it past 1st/2nd level. And maybe *I'll* never get beyond that either but I don't want to limit myself right off the bat.

I just love her sweet face, her nicely arched neck, and beautiful markings, but that's about as far as it goes. I think she'll be someone's lower level dreamhorse, but not for me.

I've since got some more videos of really nice WB's youngsters that you can just see the difference in how they use their backs and hind ends. It's really a no-brainer.

Stacie
Sep. 26, 2007, 11:44 AM
you can end up with the typical friesian riding problems: lack of forward engine, noodle neck, plank-like body, disconnect between hind and front end, and trailing hind legs. Yes, they require a training approach that is different from warmbloods, but not all people riding them have access to trainers who specialize in this breed.



Can you expand on this comment? How is the training different for a Friesian versus a WB?

Sarabeth
Sep. 26, 2007, 12:48 PM
A war horse is the friesian. A master, a noble steed that is taken into battle. A horse with courage, stamina, strength, agility and kindness.I was under the impression that Friesians were a breed created solely for pulling funeral carriages :confused:

That was supposedly a limiting factor to the Friesian's potential for dressage - they were bred for driving and not riding.

GreekDressageQueen
Sep. 27, 2007, 10:41 AM
I think she is cute, but I would work a lot in a long and low frame to develop the top of her neck and back. She is too tightly strung - evidence the canter - she is off the forehand but almost too much. Her shoulder is a bit straight and her neck lacks a natural arch. She will fill out more for sure, so some of these issues may not be a problem. I love her butt! I think she is priced well and I like to see her owner do silly things like ride her backwards and such. It shows the mare is sensible and level-headed. Those are big positives in my book. I will take a good work ethic and sense over super dramatic gaits or looks any day.

I think of Friesians as Arabians: beautiful horses that are very good for what they were bred to do, but not always a super horse for every discipline. There will always be exceptions, but I would definitely buy a Friesian cross before I would pay a lot of money for a full-blood. I think one of the most gorgeous horses I have ever seen was a Moriesian - a Morgan/Friesian cross. I think he is a GP horse. I also agree that Friesians are not suitable for amateurs for several of the reasons other posters have already mentioned.

If $$$ is an issue - I would buy her. I probably would go with something else, but then what I want costs about double, even triple. We all have to buy what we can afford, and she is a nice filly for a good price. You could really have fun with her and do lots of things - not just dressage - with her temperament and build. Is she FEI or upper-level potential? Probably not, but you can still attempt the journey, learn, and develop skills along the way. If you only make it half-way at least it was fun - right? :yes:

WBLover
Sep. 27, 2007, 12:29 PM
I could spend more, but I was trying not to--LOL! I was talking to a horse friend about it last night, and she gave me some good advice.

She said, "You seem to be pretty ambitious about moving on up the levels. If YOU end up hitting a plateau of your own limitation, you'll probably be okay with that and say, hey, I tried and that's MY best. But let's say you are doing really well but your HORSE hits a plateau, now you can't get to the level you should be able to, and have to sell it. Why not get a horse that is built to go as high of a level as you'd like, and then if it's YOUR limitation, you can still enjoy staying in the level you made it to and the horse won't care either way!"

I pretty much agree with her.

Donella
Sep. 27, 2007, 04:32 PM
I agree that I would also not buy a draft cross for upper level dressage, and then to top that off with some of the weaknesses of other non traditional breeds, I am not sure it's the best for you. On the other hand, I have to say to the one poster that refered to the friesian as a draft...it is not. I am not going to go into detail about that, but they are not draft horses. Not only do they have very heavy hot blooded influence but the official registry does not consider them to be so.

As for the training differences, well, I think there are some, however, with the right friesian, clearly, they can be overcome and you can end up with a horse that can take you farther than some of the most competative warmbloods in the country...the proof is there. They are still more and more at the top than most, if not all, non traditional breeds. I don't see the same thing with the partbreds in general...there just is no evidence as to how they will measure up yet.


It is also true that they have been recently( the last 200 yrs) bred more as a light carriage/coach breed than anything else, although the general idea was to breed a horse that is sort of all purpose, much like the way oldenburgs ect were developed. The last 5-10 yrs have been revolutionary for the breed as they are being bred specifically for riding horse qualities. If you look at the newly approved stallions and the horses winning at the inspections, you will see long front legs, shorter backs, stronger loin connections, legs farther under the horses and canters and walks that are usefull. They are also without a doubt the strictest and most selective registry in the world and when you have a situation like that, the time that it will take for change is greatly reduced.

Anyways, im sort of highjacking the thread, but I just sort of felt like adding that in case anyone is curious about the purebreds.

Trakehner
Sep. 27, 2007, 08:24 PM
One major problem with this pretty breed (other than crazy prices)...is physical. Fresians have the smallest heart size to body weight of any breed of horse. They don't stay in shape well at all.

There's a carriage driver who competes a 4-in-hand in europe of Fresians...beautiful to watch and he does pretty well. He admitted he loves the breed but had to search 100 horses before he found 5 he could compete at a high level due to their lack of physical heart pumping ability.

Where drafts have too small a radiators, so they cook when it's hot...Fresians have a lousy sized blood pump that limits them also.

Are there tough ones out there? You bet...but it's not the norm for the breed. Ever since "Ladyhawk" they've sure been popular with womenfolk.

redhorse5
Sep. 27, 2007, 08:58 PM
Hey, I can say this because I own one. There are indeed Freisians that are doing well in dressage. But I'll bet that that number is about the same as the few ASBs, Arabs, Morgans, Quarter Horses and other breeds that do well. By well I mean showing at 4th level or above. You won't find huge numbers that compete in higher levels but you can't deny that they are there. The VAST majority of higher level dressage riders choose European warmbloods that are bred for dressage.

The Freisians have poor canters, are very dull to the leg, are hard to keep on the aids and even though they are sweet tempered have a tendency to bolt when in a situation where they are unsure.

My Freisian has had the benefit of a great dressage trainer but in the end we are driving him. He loves driving, is very confident being driven and you can really tell that is what he is really meant to do. I have never seen him happier. He is actually much better under saddle as a result of the driving that we have been doing with him.

Don't buy one if you have great aspirations in dressage..

RiverOaksFarm
Sep. 28, 2007, 08:52 AM
I would encourage anyone looking for a horse, to consider a Friesian Sporthorse (Friesian cross.)

They can be wonderful horses when they are well bred. Because of the explosion in their popularity, there are alot of people breeding them now, and not all are equally well bred, so you may have to do a little bit of homework and looking. The registry is also going thru some growing pains. As things get sorted out, and breeders get more educated, etc., I think this is a breed that is only going to get better and more popular.

Crossing the Friesians lets you keep some of the Friesian characteristics like the wonderful dispositions and the expressive gaits, but also lets you increase stamina and athleticism, improve the canter, and the crossbreds are also believed to be healthier overall due to the hybrid vigor which comes from crossbreeding.

I think part of the reason we don't see alot of Friesian Sporthorses at the higher levels is because the breed is relatively new. The registry was only formed in 1996. I'm lucky enough to own one of the most successful FSH's, and I have no doubt he'll make it to FEI, but he's currently only 7 years old (and Third Level.) He just needs a couple more years.... It takes time to get horses to those levels ;). I also had my first foal this year -- and sold him to someone as an FEI prospect -- but it will be several years before we see him competing at that level either. It takes time to get the ball rolling with a new-ish breed and a registry that is hardly more than a decade old.

I think another part of the reason we don't see alot of FSH's competing, or competing at the higher levels, is because their wonderful dispositions makes them really appealing to amateurs, beginners, lower level riders, etc. who may not have the same skill and ambition as the typical pro riding a warmblood. This isn't a bad thing -- and it speaks volumes for their temperaments -- but it might offer another explanation as to why we don't see alot of them competing.

Donella
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:04 PM
But I'll bet that that number is about the same as the few ASBs, Arabs, Morgans, Quarter Horses and other breeds that do well. By well I mean showing at 4th level or above

Not even close. The number of friesians in the us in dressage training is WAY less than the number of other breeds that you mentioned and yet they are still showing up at the top more. Find me a quarter horse or ASB short listed for the olympics, or in the FEI young horse championships in the ribbons. Im not saying they are not out there, but there are more friesians when you consider the pop. differences.

Thomas_1
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:15 PM
I've got Friesians and so obviously I like them.

One of their greatest assets is their very active fast trot. They flex their legs high and as mine are all ride and drive, they're perfect for that.

I've also got a couple of friesian cross sports horses and again they're nice sort and good at what they do.

However the horse you're thinking of buying is what I call a "bitsa". Its got bitsa this and bitsa that and at least 3 breeds in there and I'd say so much so that the Friesian influence is likely to be way diluted and you need to look at the horse and judge it for what it is doing and for general type and conformation, rather than for the fact its got some Friesian in it.

This is one of my x breed sportshorses with one of my daughters:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/dlanddebs.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/DebbieonDL.jpg

p.s. back to say I've just read all the way through and seen the video. Obviously I don't know how much she is or what level dressage the OP fancies doing or how competitive the OP is, but the filly is a nice sort and looks like she's got potential. I've seen much worse .... frequently ;)

I also wanted to make mention of the fact that the Friesian is NOT and never was a great big clunky heavy draft horse. Its a light harness horse and always been a ride and drive all purpose horse of the baroque type. I'm aware that there's some dreadful great oversize ones in the USA and Canada but that's not true to type and its not true to breed standard.

WBLover
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:37 PM
Thomas1, this filly is 50% Friesian, 25% paint and 25% shire, so it is a crapshoot but looking at the pictures the lady sent me, she is starting to take more after the Friesian in type and conformation then she looks in the ad. I don't want to share them because they were privately sent to me, but trust me, she is starting to look like a Friesian with white socks!

But even if she is more Friesian-ish in type and conformation, I don't think a Friesian would be the right horse for me from what has been described about them. Even though I am a decent rider and will be working with a trainer, I'm getting too old and don't have enough time for it to be hard to get there. This will be my 4th horse, and with every one there's been issues I've had to work through (temperament, soundness, conformation, in that order!). I am trying my best to find an easy one this time that will give me the BEST chance to get where I want to go. I know there's no perfect horse, but I think I can find one that should fit the bill if I keep looking.

Oh, and Thomas1, WOW that's a lovely horse!

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:40 PM
Thomas those are lovely pics!

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:44 PM
Dressage Today Magazine had a major article a couple of issues ago about Friesians as dressage horses and their particular training issues. If I remember correctly, the trainer said that they are generally not very adjustable.

(sorry if someone else already mentioned this. I haven't been able to read all the responses :))

Lori
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:52 PM
I also wonder about the quality of the seller when I see additional ads by the same person. Percheron/TB and it is also a dressage prospect?:no:

http://www.equinenow.com/horse-ad-50990


This seller was on Fugly Horse of the Day. The horse was not picked on, but the lady in the video wearing short shorts and flip flops was! lol

RiverOaksFarm
Sep. 28, 2007, 04:15 PM
Thomas, I like those photos -- may I ask what the other half is?

Here are a few more Friesian Sporthorse photos, if anyone is interested:

1/2 Friesian, 1/4 draft: (7YO)
http://www.riveroaksfarm.net/files/CharlestonCanterburyMay2psiSQ.jpg
http://www.riveroaksfarm.net/files/chubbyschooling906AA.jpg

1/2 Friesian, 1/2 TB: (4YO)
http://www.riveroaksfarm.net/files/Lex606D.jpg
http://www.riveroaksfarm.net/aug_11_mostly_horses_021.jpg

1/2 Friesian, 1/2 Georgian Grande: (3YO)
http://www.riveroaksfarm.net/Marleyleftsidetiny.jpg

I also like this stallion (Friesian/Dutch):
http://nicopintostallion.com/nico.htm

And this crossbred got alot of attention at Equitana (3/4 Friesian, 1/4 Arab):
http://www.eurodressage.com/news/focus/foc_nero.html

Anyhow, sorry for all of the photos, but for anyone interested in FSH's, they might find them interesting :).

Adding: I also read the Dressage Today article about training Friesians. I enjoyed the article, and found much of it to be applicable to the crosses as well, to a lesser degree. The article was pretty fair in pointing out both positives and negatives (and all breeds have strengths and weaknesses, not just Friesians and Friesian Sporthorses, imo, as I've worked with alot of warmbloods also.) I liked that she didn't blindly gush about how perfect they are, but she didn't ignorantly blast them for their weaknesses either (which some people seem prone to do), you could tell she's got alot of experience with the breed. Good article, imo.

WBLover
Sep. 28, 2007, 04:19 PM
Okay, stop with all the photos of the gorgeous crossbreds people....you may start talking me back into this filly.....!

Thomas_1
Sep. 28, 2007, 05:59 PM
But even if she is more Friesian-ish in type and conformation, I don't think a Friesian would be the right horse for me from what has been described about them. It really depends on what you've been told and which bit you're taking as fact. There's a lot of stuff on this thread that contradicts and there's quite a lot I've read and thought "does that person even know what a friesian is" ;)


Oh, and Thomas1, WOW that's a lovely horse!
thanks and x t/b

ravenclaw
Sep. 28, 2007, 06:36 PM
I like this horse (Friesian/TB):
http://www.friesian.info/Rauke.htm

On the online classified websites, I have seen several LOVELY Friesian crosses and I would definitely consider buying one. I like that they seem to have the quiet, kind draft temperament without being too huge and chunky.

Elegante E
Sep. 28, 2007, 07:36 PM
Well if people are posting photos:
The baby:
http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/LolosSombra/?action=view&current=Tar_Face.jpg

http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/LolosSombra/?action=view&current=Tar_Trot2.jpg

the moose:
http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n200/LolosSombra/?action=view&current=E_BinkyTraining706001.jpg


I think the choice of full vs. cross really is a personal preference as well as a cost one. And the comments made by people on this thread come from what we've been exposed to and experienced.

FriesianX
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:11 AM
Hi everyone, I'm new to COTH. A couple of people sent me a link to this forum, so figured I'd sign up and post a reply. I've been involved with Friesian cross breeds for a few years now, and run the awards program with the registry (Friesian Sport Horse). I also have a couple of purebred Friesians (too many horses in general).

First, with the purebred Friesian, several people have pointed out, the modern Friesians are being bred for riding. The original breed WAS a riding breed - bred for war (as were many of the Baroque horses). War horse must be brave and willing to move INTO pain, and take care of their rider above all else, and that is probably part of what we still see in the Friesian. It is only in more recent history that it evolved as a driving horse, then even more recently, back to a riding horse, but a LIGHTER sport type riding horse. The breed now has several different "types", some more suited for riding, some more suited for driving.

As pointed out by a few posters, there are a relatively SMALL number of the Friesians (it is a rare breed, and sadly, growing rapidly and not always in a quality direction), and yet has a high % of that very small number competing well. Sure, there are many that are not ever going to get above Training or First level - but you can say the same about Warmbloods, there are a handful of elite, several handfuls that are doing OK in the mid levels, and a HUGE number stuck at the lower levels. Some are stuck because of their riders - the same as the Friesian.

As for the crosses, a little background. This is a relatively new idea - the registry was born in the mid 80s if I remember right, and most of the original horses (and many even now) were bred because people wanted a quiet, gentle family horse. Most were in the Mid-West, and most were either Morgan or stock horse crosses. Most were from unapproved stallions who were not of sport horse type, and the German registry (which allows cross breeding) was almost non-existant.

They were creating WONDERFUL family horses - truly loving, gentle horses that had a certain amount of flash and charisma that you didn't see in your typical backyard family horse. And, slowly, others started seeing that extra something. The German registry started to grow in its influence and visibility - Proud Meadows and Sabine Schutt Kerry did WONDERS for the Friesian breed and for the German registry, and all of a sudden there were some SPORT horse Stallions that were available for cross breeding. And serious dressage riders started to notice...

A few of us breeders started to think about breeding a more sport oriented mare to Freisian stallions who had serious show records and/or had passed the German registry requirements (50 day testing), and we started seeing some serious dressage horses. Meanwhile, there were still TONS of the family horses being bred - not horses with upper dressage talent, but wonderful, gentle, riding horses that are just as important to the horse world as are the upper level dressage prospects.

And a few of us started making some splashes in the open competition circuit with our crosses. A few years back, Dressage Today had a short article on the Friesian/Morgan cross, and my own War of the Titans was featured as a young horse who was cleaning up on the open dressage show circuit. Sadly, he colicked and died at a very early age, but judges and trainers were labeling him as a valid FEI candidate. An S judge on the East Coast bought a young Friesian cross and is campaigning her successfully. Here on the West Coast, another judge and HER trainer are both showing Friesian crosses, although they are registered as PHRs - one of those horses just debuted at PSG, the other just hit the show circuit for the first time this year (in the highly Competitive state of California) and is cleaning up at big shows. One of our owners just silver medaled on her Friesian cross. River Oaks has shown you her young horses. A breeder in Canada that I know is turning out quality youngsters that are doing well at shows.

I bought a lovely stallion that I'm retraining for competitive dressage. We started showing this year at 2nd level, and while there are some training issues to iron out, he's doing quite well. He has a piaffe and passage that is just incredible. He is a cross - and can be seen on my website at www.mysticoakranch.com. And there are pictures of my cross offspring on that same website - I think you'll be suprised at the quality of the horses!

grayarabpony
Sep. 29, 2007, 11:47 AM
When did Friesians start becoming popular for dressage? The first time I ever saw one was in the movie Ladyhawke and that was horse was by far my favorite part of the movie!

Thomas1 those are beautiful pictures.

Thomas_1
Sep. 29, 2007, 11:54 AM
Hi everyone, I'm new to COTH. ............. And there are pictures of my cross offspring on that same website - I think you'll be suprised at the quality of the horses!

Hello and welcome and being a fellow enthusiast I wasn't at all surprised to see nice horses..... but by heck you've got some cracking good ones.

VERY VERY nice indeed :yes:

Donella
Sep. 29, 2007, 12:40 PM
I agree thomas, alot of the comments here make me wonder if these people have any contact with the friesian horse. The draft horse comments, the bolting ect. :confused:

The correct friesian today is a modern built horse that has about the same bone as today's KWPN. We just got back from the FPS keuring and I will assure you, nothing "heavy" or "old style" was being rewarded. They have been actively seeking to develope a modern dressage/riding type horse and they are very stringent and it is definately happening. As the last poster mentioned, the German registry has some good examples but yes, so do the Dutch ie Iron Spring Farms stallions..Goffert , Teade ect.


I dunno, part of me is annoyed when I read some of the more negative posts ect. If someone asks "can my qh draft cross make it in dressage", everyone chimes in with this overwhelming "YES, ANY BREED CAN DO IT!!..who cares what breed it is ect", when we all know how hard it would be for that kind of horse to get to FEI, and yet when someone mentions a friesian, a breed that has had good success at the upper levels in tough competition time and again in a relatively short period of time, its this sort of negative reaction. I don't really get it.

In case anyone wants to see some modern examples..here is a link to the Dutch Keuring this year and our mares, who are both the modern type. http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=6528253&uid=3095623

Elegante E
Sep. 29, 2007, 03:05 PM
Seems to me you guys are harping on a few negative comments. There were many positive ones as well.

PiaffeDreams
Sep. 29, 2007, 11:52 PM
and can be seen on my website at www.mysticoakranch.com. And there are pictures of my cross offspring on that same website - I think you'll be suprised at the quality of the horses!

I was reading through this thread, about to chime in on the value of looking at crosses, the crosses that seem to work well, AND was going to suggest Mystic Oaks Friesian crosses as I see them around a lot. But you have joined! Welcome FriesianX. Her horses really represent the ideal of proper selection for a sport horse using the best of the Friesian qualities complimented with qualities that help even out their weaker points.

Dressage Art
Sep. 30, 2007, 12:34 AM
Hi everyone, I'm new to COTH.
Welcome to COTH and allow me publicly congratulate you with graduating from USDF "L" training judge program with distinction! We need more judges open to variety of breeds in dressage.

FriesianX
Sep. 30, 2007, 09:05 AM
Aw shucks, thanks for the compliments on my horses (and on L)...

Dressage Art and I were in the L program at about the same time and in the same region, although different programs. Our two groups helped each other out, it was an interesting, educational, overwhelming at times experience!

Piaffe is another rider I've seen do well on non-Warmblood breeds - it always makes me happy to see other breeds ridden and trained well and competing successfully!

I'll be the first to admit, not all Friesians do well in dressage. But neither do all Warmbloods, all Thoroughbreds, or any other breed. But Donella makes a good point, there are more and more Friesians being bred specifically for dressage, just like certain WBs are bred for dressage. And you really can't beat the mind, most Friesians are SO people oriented. They are FUN, horses you can really enjoy!

Obi
Sep. 30, 2007, 02:45 PM
I must say I have quite enjoyed this thread! I was starting to believe that I had the most politically incorrect horse out there (other than a Clyde x mini cross, lol).;)

I do admit, my horse, who turned 2 in May, definitely looks Friesian one day and thoroughbred the next...literally but he has the personality of the Friesian, which I would not trade for anything.

RiverOaksFarm
Sep. 30, 2007, 05:35 PM
Piaffe is another rider I've seen do well on non-Warmblood breeds - it always makes me happy to see other breeds ridden and trained well and competing successfully!


Hey, you're going to blow my cover (lol!)
I'm only Piaffe on the other board :winkgrin::lol:. But all kidding aside, thanks :).

What an enjoyable thread. Hopefully it has helped provide some good information -- and put to rest some of the misinformation that may have been floating around about both Friesians and Friesian Sporthorses!

:) gigha

Thomas_1
Sep. 30, 2007, 05:57 PM
I must say I have quite enjoyed this thread! I was starting to believe that I had the most politically incorrect horse out there (other than a Clyde x mini cross, lol).;)

I do admit, my horse, who turned 2 in May, definitely looks Friesian one day and thoroughbred the next...literally but he has the personality of the Friesian, which I would not trade for anything. Here are some photos of him as a weanling, a yearling and the last one just as he was turning 2. He is about 16.1 now so I am wondering how big he is actually going to get!



DEFINITELY the wrong sort of horse and he's going to get WAYYY too big.

Tell you what, I'll do you a huge favour though and take it and some of the others off your hands for free ;)

I see his name's Oberon? I used to have a stallion called that with me for many years.

GreekDressageQueen
Sep. 30, 2007, 09:15 PM
And a few of us started making some splashes in the open competition circuit with our crosses. A few years back, Dressage Today had a short article on the Friesian/Morgan cross, and my own War of the Titans was featured as a young horse who was cleaning up on the open dressage show circuit. Sadly, he colicked and died at a very early age, but judges and trainers were labeling him as a valid FEI candidate.

Oh I am so sorry to hear that he died. I mentioned in an earlier post that I saw a picture of a Moriesian and it was one of the most beautiful horses I had ever seen. I think it was your horse I saw since it was an article in Dressage Today. So sad... can you purchase a sibling or close relative?

I really like the Friesian crosses and would definitely consider purchasing one. Love those pintos! However, I saw some Friesian/QH crosses - not a very pretty site. :no:

As for the negative comments - I have seen a few top quality, specifically bred for dressage, imported, top dollar, etc. Friesians and I think they still have a lot of "issues" to overcome in the ring for judges to seriously take notice. Such as: sucking back in the bridle, trotting out with the hind legs, canter not forward enough, etc. BUT I think with proper riding and training as evidenced by Sabine, ISF, and Proud Meadows maybe we will see better examples. As for the bolting, I have known 2 that were steady and solid as a rock and 1 that was flighty and very spooky. I guess the propensity would be the same for any breed.

As for the draft horse comments - I have Irish Draughts, which are not drafts either, but everyone thinks they are because of the heavy bone and feathers. Ignorance is what it is.

FriesianX
Sep. 30, 2007, 10:56 PM
Oh I am so sorry to hear that he died. I mentioned in an earlier post that I saw a picture of a Moriesian and it was one of the most beautiful horses I had ever seen. I think it was your horse I saw since it was an article in Dressage Today. So sad... can you purchase a sibling or close relative?

I really like the Friesian crosses and would definitely consider purchasing one. Love those pintos! However, I saw some Friesian/QH crosses - not a very pretty site. :no:

As for the negative comments - I have seen a few top quality, specifically bred for dressage, imported, top dollar, etc. Friesians and I think they still have a lot of "issues" to overcome in the ring for judges to seriously take notice. Such as: sucking back in the bridle, trotting out with the hind legs, canter not forward enough, etc. BUT I think with proper riding and training as evidenced by Sabine, ISF, and Proud Meadows maybe we will see better examples. As for the bolting, I have known 2 that were steady and solid as a rock and 1 that was flighty and very spooky. I guess the propensity would be the same for any breed.

As for the draft horse comments - I have Irish Draughts, which are not drafts either, but everyone thinks they are because of the heavy bone and feathers. Ignorance is what it is.


Yes, that was probably my horse you saw in DT. He was an awesome horse - took a while to get over that loss. I did take a look at his (weanling) sister this past year, but I've got enough young horses of my own without BUYING another... Actually, one big reason I started breeding them was because of Titan... He was a very special horse - I finally accepted I will never have another horse like that. Then, along came my stallion - I feel VERY lucky to have two chances at "once in a life-time" horses...

Personally, I like the crosses because a well bred one overcomes some of the training issues you mention. All breeds and all horses have training issues of one kind of the other, but generally, if you use a nice lighter perfomance horse and a nice Friesian, seems like EVERYTHING gets easier! I do not see many of the Friesians well ridden though - many are bought and owned by beginner riders, so you can hardly blame the horse for not being ridden well.

I agree, I'm not generally fond of the QH/Friesian crosses (although I've seen a few nice ones here and there) - but that is my own personal preference, I breed specifically for dressage, and just think it is better to start with a mare who is dressage oriented.

Hope to keep seeing nice ones!

Drvmb1ggl3
Sep. 30, 2007, 11:47 PM
As for the draft horse comments - I have Irish Draughts, which are not drafts either, but everyone thinks they are because of the heavy bone and feathers. Ignorance is what it is.

If they have feathers, they're not IDs.

Sabine
Oct. 1, 2007, 12:27 AM
As for the draft horse comments - I have Irish Draughts, which are not drafts either, but everyone thinks they are because of the heavy bone and feathers. Ignorance is what it is.

not really- I have seen plenty of Perch/Saddlebred/Friesian crosses- plenty of Shire combos and I just stated that I personally would not use such a horse for dressage to try and train it to higher levels- just because it is very hard. I have seen Irish Draughts and especially one was really fab for dressage...but it took a ton of work to get him sitting on his butt.
I prefer horses that are naturally set up to be more on the rear and are naturally hotter so that all that work is not so very hard for the horse and the rider...

just my opinion...;)

pintopiaffe
Oct. 1, 2007, 02:46 AM
was starting to believe that I had the most politically incorrect horse out there

Naw, that's my guy. Leetle, ayerab, AND pinto. :lol:

FriesianX glad to see you here. After the WOW that is this year's (sold) *Nico filly, I am very, very interested in Cadence. But I especially like him *because of* his minor APHA blood.

Still worried about the gaits though. They are BEAUTIFUL, but are they RIDEABLE for an older AA with not-so-great joints?

Some amazing, stunning horses posted here. RiverOaks' Lexington just makes me DROOL.... :yes:

FriesianX
Oct. 1, 2007, 11:36 AM
Naw, that's my guy. Leetle, ayerab, AND pinto. :lol:

FriesianX glad to see you here. After the WOW that is this year's (sold) *Nico filly, I am very, very interested in Cadence. But I especially like him *because of* his minor APHA blood.

Still worried about the gaits though. They are BEAUTIFUL, but are they RIDEABLE for an older AA with not-so-great joints?

Some amazing, stunning horses posted here. RiverOaks' Lexington just makes me DROOL.... :yes:


I have ridden one of Cadence's offspring, and he was an easy ride. He is owned by Cadence's original owner/breeder. And another riding age offspring is now in Davis (CA) and is reported to have easy gaits. Cadence is a huge mover, true, and I suspect if you are looking in a bit less movement, picking a mare with less movement might help too? Breeding is always a gamble though, it might be a safer bet to buy a youngster that is already riding age (not that I want to DISCOURAGE anyone from breeding to my stallion, but I don't want disappointment either).

I understand the concern about older, less flexible joints!

I don't think any horses are politically incorrect in dressage anymore, as long as they have 3 decent gaits. We see a lot of AAAAYrabs here in California ;) maybe having the Arab Sport Horse regionals right around the corner makes a difference? And more and more color showing up in the dressage ring too - which is kind of fun, for so long, dressage seemed a little drab, bay horse, black and white tack, rider clothing. Every once in a while, a grey with black and white tack and rider clothing. Now we see pinto, appy, buckskin, it is actually FUN visually :)

GreekDressageQueen
Oct. 1, 2007, 01:52 PM
If they have feathers, they're not IDs.

??? Maybe you need to explain that comment...

Any full blood ID will have some feathering on the fetlocks. It's not as heavy as a Shire or Clyde, but necessary to keep the wet Irish mud off the skin. Most people I know shave the leg hair off (I do) but any ID or IDSH (depending on how much TB is in the cross) will have some feathering.

Perhaps you are confused over the term "feathers" and the amount I was referring to. Friesians have "feathers" - just like an ID - but they are not considered cold/heavy draft breeds. Perhaps you are one of those people that think my ID is a Clydesdale...:lol:...because she has big feet, a big butt, and some leg hair.

GreekDressageQueen
Oct. 1, 2007, 02:05 PM
not really- I have seen plenty of Perch/Saddlebred/Friesian crosses- plenty of Shire combos and I just stated that I personally would not use such a horse for dressage to try and train it to higher levels- just because it is very hard. I have seen Irish Draughts and especially one was really fab for dressage...but it took a ton of work to get him sitting on his butt.
I prefer horses that are naturally set up to be more on the rear and are naturally hotter so that all that work is not so very hard for the horse and the rider...

just my opinion...;)

Oh I agree - ID and IDSH are not really the most suitable breed for dressage and I probably wouldn't buy one just for that purpose. I lucked out with my IDSH but then he is 3/4ths TB and naturally built for collection. The breed is known for jumping and eventing, but there will always be some exceptions - do you remember KEC Double Diamond? He was in CA before moving to FL with his owner Jutta Hiensohn. He as a full ID and AWESOME! I think he is 4th/PSG now?

I also think there is a difference between ID or Friesian crosses and crosses using heavier draft breeds like Clydes or Shires. With the exception of Percheron (because I think they move better than other drafts), I think most heavy breeds lack a lot of athleticism and cadence to their gaits that it would take 3 or 4 generations of crosses to improve or maybe just a lot of luck. I am not a breeder or anything, but this is just my gut feeling based on my experiences. I used to drive carriage horses in college and I had several different drafts to choose from. I also rode the big suckers and the Percherons were consistently the better movers and could do lateral work well. The Shires were the worst movers (and temperament) and the Belgium would never canter. I don't think he could canter - he was 18.3hh - and his trot was a shuffle.

Drvmb1ggl3
Oct. 1, 2007, 02:30 PM
??? Maybe you need to explain that comment...

Perhaps you are one of those people that think my ID is a Clydesdale...:lol:...because she has big feet, a big butt, and some leg hair.

Hardly, having grown up surrounded by IDs, and from a family that has bred owned, ridden and shown them for a long time, I'm well aware of the difference between IDs and hairy draught breeds.
The amount of hair on an ID legs is nothing approaching a Clyde/Shire etc, I don't see how anyone could mistake them.

Thomas_1
Oct. 1, 2007, 03:30 PM
For Irish Drafts, unless you have a different breed standard to what exists in Ireland, then it states:

"The limbs are strong with good flat bone and very little feather "

WBLover
Nov. 6, 2007, 04:52 PM
Bumping this thread back up, sorry, but I just wanted to tell everyone that I'm buying a Friesian cross--:eek:!

I never thought I would, being the warmblood "snob" that I am, but the WB's that were in my tight budget didn't do anything for me, and the one WB I wanted failed his vet check. I'm getting a nice Friesian/WB cross instead!

I'm not getting "fugly" horse that I first posted about--someone did buy her though. This one is a gelding, and he is out of a refined Class I Swedish WB dam by a Friesian sire. He scored 80.5% at his AWS inspection. He is 2-1/2 years old, 16H and medium boned with very elegant movement and not a huge barrel. His feet aren't very huge either, so I don't see him becoming heavy later. They expect him to mature 16.1 or 16.2H which is perfect for me. He doesn't have a lot of knee action and reaches more from the shoulder, with good flexing of the hock joints. Definitely a forward moving type and not a "leg mover". Above all he's got a great temperament, very sensible, curious, and people oriented.

He passed the initial vet check today and as soon as I get x-ray results on Thursday I'm getting him. Since he's coming 3, I can continue his ground work this fall and lightly back him in spring, gradually increasing his work into next fall. I'm so excited!

I'll have pictures and videos up once I get him.....

Sabine
Nov. 6, 2007, 11:48 PM
Bumping this thread back up, sorry, but I just wanted to tell everyone that I'm buying a Friesian cross--:eek:!

I never thought I would, being the warmblood "snob" that I am, but the WB's that were in my tight budget didn't do anything for me, and the one WB I wanted failed his vet check. I'm getting a nice Friesian/WB cross instead!

I'm not getting "fugly" horse that I first posted about--someone did buy her though. This one is a gelding, and he is out of a refined Class I Swedish WB dam by a Friesian sire. He scored 80.5% at his AWS inspection. He is 2-1/2 years old, 16H and medium boned with very elegant movement and not a huge barrel. His feet aren't very huge either, so I don't see him becoming heavy later. They expect him to mature 16.1 or 16.2H which is perfect for me. He doesn't have a lot of knee action and reaches more from the shoulder, with good flexing of the hock joints. Definitely a forward moving type and not a "leg mover". Above all he's got a great temperament, very sensible, curious, and people oriented.

He passed the initial vet check today and as soon as I get x-ray results on Thursday I'm getting him. Since he's coming 3, I can continue his ground work this fall and lightly back him in spring, gradually increasing his work into next fall. I'm so excited!

I'll have pictures and videos up once I get him.....

Good for you- it will make you very happy for sure. Get a good helmet if you want to start him yourself. Not that they are bad or dangerous - but hopefully your horse has the athletic capacity my little one has...he's a blast and I would not switch him for a WB....(having a WB that's wonderful..)

http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c322/Sabindi/?action=view&current=faaf8f6d.pbw



he's 3 yrs and 3 month in this video and a little rascal...but great fun to ride...smarter than a whip...Friesian/Saddlebred.

Margaret Freeman
Nov. 7, 2007, 08:29 AM
Hey there Gigha and Michele --

Looks like we can turn this into a Friesian cross admiration society. I have a lot of fun when people ask me what breed my mare is. I ask them to play "name that breed." I give them a hint that she's a cross. They never get it. Then, when I tell them, of course they can see it (color/hooves/neck/shoulders are Friesian; head is Trakehner; back is Hanoverian; mostly she looks like a small dark brown Hanoverian). I can't always spot Friesian crosses when I judge, but every once in awhile I can (if they're mostly blackish), and then I appreciate show programs when I can take a peek in the back and check the breed. The one big difference I've found working with a Friesian cross is that my mare was very emotional about her neck at the start. If she was uncertain about something, she'd suck her neck into her shoulders like a turtle. Leg yield and stretchy/chewy became a way of life. Jane Savoie did an article in DT about the "baroque neck" a couple years ago that described the situation perfectly. Interesting that we're now a Second Level, she doesn't retract her neck like she once did so readily.

Margaret and Windy

WBLover
Nov. 7, 2007, 09:22 AM
OH SABINE--he's just GORGEOUS!! I haven't seen mine being quite so exhuberant yet, I can only hope I'll see all that fabulous "sitting" on the hind when he's goofing around! All the video I have of him he's in the indoor and is pretty laid back. The owner told me that I should see him when he's outside and all full of himself, I can't wait!

Margaret, do you have any pics of your mare?

Margaret Freeman
Nov. 7, 2007, 09:30 AM
Margaret, do you have any pics of your mare?

Lots in my computer but I don't know how to get them out for viewing on a web board. Here's the home page for the Friesian Sport Horse Registry showing Windy and me (top; not a great angle) plus Cadence and Michele.

http://www.fshr.org

FriesianX
Nov. 7, 2007, 11:29 AM
Hi Margaret, and welcome to our COTH FXAS (Friesian Cross Admiration Society). You can start a photobucket photo album of Windy pictures - we'd love to see more!

One thing I am finding out about the crosses that are showing - often they don't get credit for what they are. Many are registered as AWS or PHR or Arabian crosses or some other registry that doesn't give credit to the Friesian heritage. And, as Margaret points out, you can't always tell - many of the crosses look like old style Warmbloods. I know of one here in CA that is showing FEI but is shown as a PHR horse. I suspect there are others - some of these horses were sired by Dutch approved stallions, so they can't "admit" to their heritage :eek:

I'll have to post an update after this weekend, several of my crosses will be demo horses for the USDF DSHB Symposium here in Northern CA this weekend. I'll have a purebred yearling colt, two cross yearlings (filly and colt), a 2 year old cross gelding, AND my stallion there! Will be a busy weekend...

Margaret Freeman
Nov. 7, 2007, 12:29 PM
Okay, Michele, I'm dipping my big toe in photobucket for the first time. Hope it works. Just took this one. She's an 8yo 16h Friesian X (dam was Han/Trak/TB).

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/margfree/IMG_1684.jpg

This was last fall:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff270/margfree/IMG_0023.jpg

slc2
Nov. 7, 2007, 12:43 PM
"This is where dressage comes from. Anyone who thinks otherwise, has no clue. "

anyone who disagrees on any point w/ this poster ALWAYS 'has no clue', lol.

Friesians were originally carriage horses; they were not originally intended for, or used for, dressage or even riding. They are not 'where dressage comes from', not in any way, shape or form. They are beautiful and very useful, and in recent years have been selected for sport, but let's not ignore 400 yrs of history just to make some point.

The other comments on the same post don't even deserve a response, just more of what the poster usually says - dressage, its horses, riders, etc, stink. there ARE 'dressage stinks' bulletin boards out there, which may be more pleasantly receptive to such sentiments.

the conformation and gaits of THIS individual aren't suited to the stated goal. the OP rejected her on concerns about her winding up a heavy animal, I would pass on her based on her conformation and gaits right now....and her price, which isn't appropriate for what she is.

This horse, I feel, isn't 'harmonious', at least not at this point. First, the gaits, which show a lateral canter. That's a miserable thing to try and fix, when you see it in an unbacked youngster, and can't say, 'well, that's just a little training that needs to be fixed!'.

The body and especially the front end, are going to bulk up alot, and the discrepancy between the legs and the body is going to get more and more, the legs are going to wind up very light for the body mass. The shoulder is almost completely straight up and down, and the hind quarter is very small and sloped, with a very straight hind leg (which I WOULD fault a horse for, having seen those straight hind legs over and over get arthritis) and a weak looking coupling. The front end is coarse, and the back end looks weak.

It really looks like two halves of a different horse, both comparing the front end to the back and and comparing the body mass (or at least what the body may look like at maturity) to the legs.

There are those who say this horse will mature and all that will change. And there are those who will say you can see more clearly the animal's faults at this age. I think it's a horse that will make someone very happy, but at least from reading WBlover's very ambitious goals in the past here, I'm not sure this one is a good choice.

WBLover
Nov. 7, 2007, 12:53 PM
SLC2, I don't know if you saw my update post, I didn't buy the horse in my original post. She was 1/2 Friesian, 1/4 draft, 1/4 QH, and I agree with your assessment of her, I just didn't see it at first.

I purchased a Friesian/SWB cross (post #70). I haven't posted any video or pics of him yet because I'm waiting to make sure his x-rays come out clean and the sale goes through. I think he took good things from both sides, his dam had a BEAUTIFUL topline, was refined, and was a Class I mare. His sire is, well, he's a Friesian, and from that he got some added bone, some good hock flexion, a beautifully set on neck, and a people-oriented and quiet personality.

Is he perfect? No. Will I be happy with him? I hope so. Will I ever get to upper levels with him? Maybe or maybe not, I think *I'll* be more the limiting factor for that than the horse. I've seen horses with worse conformation and movement than him get to the upper levels. It mostly takes a talented rider, good training, and a horse with a lot of TRY.

I will say although he doesn't have a SPECTACULAR canter, it is a far cry more correct than the mare's I originally posted. His body parts are a lot more harmonious too!

WBLover
Nov. 7, 2007, 01:15 PM
Margaret, she is just LOVELY!!! I hope one day we can look as good!

So FriesianX, would you recommend getting him registered in the FSHR too? He's AWR. I could get both the mare owner and stallion owner to sign, I think.

RiverOaksFarm
Nov. 7, 2007, 01:17 PM
Hi Margaret! :)

I've always liked your mare, she first caught my eye when I saw her in one of the magazines, Dressage Today maybe, in an article about alternative breeds in dressage, or something like that? She's very nice.

WBLover, your new horse sounds very nice. I would love to see photos when you get him home. I'm always interested in FSH's, and getting to know FSH owners -- we're such a small group! I think you'll be really happy with him.

:) Gigha

WBLover
Nov. 7, 2007, 02:16 PM
This is a quote from the Friesian Sporthorse Registry website:

"The Friesian horse from the Netherlands is a bold and powerfully built horse. It proved itself as an animal of strength, docility and endurance when it carried the Friesian and German knights during the Crusades."

Further reading up on the FHANA website which gave an entire history said it was both a riding horse and a carriage horse, used in war, trot racing under saddle, and carriage driving among other things. It was also crossbred a lot in the past, contributing to it's current type.

slc2
Nov. 7, 2007, 03:22 PM
thanks, i'll tell my friend the frieisian breeder that she is wrong, she says that the friesian was designed as a driving horse, built like a driving horse, and only recently has it been used so extensively for riding. she didn't say they never were used for riding, but that it was recently that it became so widespread, and that their backs, hq and connection are those of driving horse, not a riding horse, and she says yes, sport horse selection is changing that now, but that they were first and foremost, driving horses.

ps, wblover, yes, i understood you didn't buy her. i disagree with you about her, though, you said yo udon't fault straight hind legs, and that you passed on her due to she might be heavy some day, i pass on her now due to conformation and gaits, and i do fault straight hind legs.

egontoast
Nov. 7, 2007, 03:31 PM
Please give slc a break. I think she mentioned recently that several of her trainers were frauds and so, no, doubt, much of her information is suspect. Not her fault though. Just her poor choice, unfortunately and, strangely ,repeatedly, in trainers.:cry:

Elegante E
Nov. 7, 2007, 03:41 PM
Hey, for those in the know, which half Friesian registry is considered better, The Friesian Sport Horse Registry or the Friesian Blood Registry? Which one is bigger?

FriesianX
Nov. 7, 2007, 03:50 PM
Hey, for those in the know, which half Friesian registry is considered better, The Friesian Sport Horse Registry or the Friesian Blood Registry? Which one is bigger?

I don't think it is fair to ask which is "better". The real question is what do you want from a registry? I will warn you up front, I am a Friesian Sport Horse Registry supporter, so you'll get my own point of view.

FSHR is larger and has been around a lot longer. I can tell you some of the programs it offers, but I really can't speak for FBHR (Blood Horse) because I"m not as familiar with them.

FSH offers optional inspections - they are not mandatory, registration is based solely on proving at least 25% Friesian breeding. There are no other breeding requirements, so the registry includes all kinds of crosses with 25% to 100% Friesian breeding.

FSH is affiliated with USDF and sponsors USDF All Breeds Awards. It also has its own "Open Competition Awards Program" as an optional program you can participate in.

There is nothing stopping you from registering with more than one registry too - for example, my stallion is registered with both FSHR and AWS. But if you want to stick with a single registry, you should determine what you want from that registry, then look at which is a better fit based on your expectations.

RiverOaksFarm
Nov. 7, 2007, 03:53 PM
This thread seems to have taken a peculiar turn, lol!

For anyone interested in the history of the Friesian, you might find this (http://www.nefhc.com/history.html) interesting. It would appear the Friesian progressed from war horse, to agricultural use, to carriage use, to riding (primarily dressage).

DukesMom
Nov. 7, 2007, 03:54 PM
The most important thing I have learned from Duke is to never underestimate a horses conformation. My guy has the worst of the Friesian and the worst of the Thoroughbred but is one of the most trainable horses I have ever sat on and I wouldn't trade him for the world. Standing there he looks like a sack of $&^# :lol:but tack him up and he transforms into this amazing beast and is ready to go out there and do his job. Like my good friend says, "Most people aren't limited by their horse flesh." We aren't going to make the Olympic team, most of us aren't, but we have had a fantastic season at I-2 and I am looking forward to showing him GP in the Spring. Our last test started with 5 8's, so I guess his long weak back, short weak neck and size 4 feet on his 16 hand frame aren't holding him back too badly.:lol:

WBLover
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:01 PM
Hey hey, bonus, I just found out he's already registered with FSHR as well as AWS....I'll have to do more research and see which I want to compete under.

I guess the FHANA website is posting falseities about the history of the Friesian, I should let them know....They did an awfully big write-up about it, I guess they made it all up??

Really slc, you have information from ONE breeder about their history and that's the only gospel truth?

FriesianX
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:02 PM
thanks, i'll tell my friend the frieisian breeder that she is wrong, she says that the friesian was designed as a driving horse, built like a driving horse, and only recently has it been used so extensively for riding. she didn't say they never were used for riding, but that it was recently that it became so widespread, and that their backs, hq and connection are those of driving horse, not a riding horse, and she says yes, sport horse selection is changing that now, but that they were first and foremost, driving horses.

ps, wblover, yes, i understood you didn't buy her. i disagree with you about her, though, you said yo udon't fault straight hind legs, and that you passed on her due to she might be heavy some day, i pass on her now due to conformation and gaits, and i do fault straight hind legs.


If you research the Friesian breed, it was initially a riding horse, used in war quite a bit. Then, later on, based on society needs, the Friesian was used more in driving, as were many breeds. Then, like the Dutch WBs, the breed developed in multiple directions, with some lines more oriented toward driving (such as the Dutch Harness Horse is), and others more toward riding. There are certain lines that excel in dressage, others that are doing well in saddleseat, and of course, driving is still quite popular with some lines.

Recently, the interest in dressage has caused some refocus on breeding riding lines, and we are starting to see horses that have good walks and canters, stronger backs and loins, and longer forelegs, as well as lighter in build.

Many of the crosses are quite lovely - granted some are not. But when you look at the quality ones, they really are wonderful horses, and most of them have that great people oriented Friesian mind. I sometimes see people put down the Friesian breed without really knowing the breed, and that is kind of sad.

RiverOaksFarm
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:02 PM
DukesMom, that is really impressive.

FriesianX
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:06 PM
Welcome to the discussion Duke's Mom! You should post a link to Duke's recent pictures! Duke is another example of a Friesian cross who is venturing quite successfully into the FEI ranks! I haven't checked the USDF HOY standings, but am guessing you guys might have made it into the top 20 in PSG and I-1? :winkgrin:

DukesMom
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:13 PM
#6 HOY I-2 with a 65% median:cool:

Margaret Freeman
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:15 PM
USDF seems to have at least four different Friesian organizations listed in All-Breeds. I picked FSHR because it was the most welcoming for cross-breds and because it appeared to be the most oriented toward sport horses.

As FriesianX mentioned, there are some crosses out there showing that are never listed as Friesian crosses. If the mating came from a Dutch Friesian, then it wouldn't be revealed because the Dutch don't allow cross breeding of either mares or stallions. The German registry allows cross breeding of stallions (therefore most of the known crosses seem to be from German origins) but not of mares. Also, in some areas it just wasn't something that people admitted, for whatever reason, until recently. Crosses now seem to be gaining popularity very quickly.

As an overall type the crosses seem to be a useful idea for amateurs or anyone who wants a horse that generally has a good disposition and has some sparkle without huge size or overly huge gaits. Because of the neck and overall substance, they look large but aren't. Also, they aren't as wide as you would think. So you get the appearance of size and thus visual balance with riders who aren't stick thin. (I'm a case in point.)

FriesianX
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:20 PM
Here are links to a few of my Friesian crosses (two yearlings, a 2 year old, my stallion), and one purebred yearling (can you guess which one is the purebed;)

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r264/friesiansport/almondsjuly0713sm-1.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r264/friesiansport/sve079small-1.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r264/friesiansport/roo9107dsm.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r264/friesiansport/jjsept07asm.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r264/friesiansport/andynov079sm.jpg

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r264/friesiansport/uthynov072sm-1.jpg

These five horses will all be demo horses this weekend for a USDF Sporthorse Symposium. I think they all look like riding horses, even the purebred Friesian (by the way, when I was asked to bring horses, based on the pictures of the purebred colt, they thought he was a heavy Warmblood).

WBLover
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:20 PM
Wow, Duke's mom, that is inspirational!

I don't deny that Friesians were used for a good part of their history as carriage horses, but then again, so did Oldenburgs, Hanoverians, Dutch, etc. By selective breeding and crossbreeding they were made more into riding types.

I'm also not saying that my new horse is going to be the next FEI young horse champion and make it to GP, every horse has their limitations.

I was looking at Euro WB's in the same price range, and I saw some pretty crappy ones for what I could afford. Then there were some nice ones that would have fit the bill but just weren't the right horse for ME. Then there was one WB I fell in love with that didn't pass the vet-check, so he most likely would have never made it to upper levels with those hocks anyways. Granted if I had unlimited funds I probably would have bought the next FEI young horse candidate and gotten a Hanoverian or Oldenburg with the latest en-vogue bloodlines, but I don't, and I think he's pretty nice for what my pocketbook could handle. And he was reasonably priced for what he is, significantly cheaper than the mare in my original post.

And did I mention he got an 80.5% at his AWS inspection--for what it's worth, and some may say it's not worth a whole lot! But I figured an 80.5% with the AWS should equate to a pretty decent score with a Euro registry!! ;)

FriesianX
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:23 PM
:D:D:D:D
#6 HOY I-2 with a 65% median:cool::D:D:D

CONGRATULATIONS!!! In case I didn't already smile a few times :D:D:D:D

DukesMom
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:36 PM
Thanks! It has been a pretty difficult year, so I am thankful Duke came through for me. We had two pretty awful rides at Championships but still ended up winning the GAIG Champ at I-2 (Best of the worst!:lol:) He is still pretty young and green and the whole atmosphere got the best of him, especially the warm-up. My test comments were tense, tight, tense, tight.......:lol: Impressive horse work for better relaxation. Like I didn't know:winkgrin:

RiverOaksFarm
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:44 PM
And did I mention he got an 80.5% at his AWS inspection--for what it's worth, and some may say it's not worth a whole lot! But I figured an 80.5% with the AWS should equate to a pretty decent score with a Euro registry!! ;)

An 80.5% is a very good score -- that would make him "Supreme". In the most recent AWS newsletter they've got the results from 12 recent inspections, and only one horse (out of all the horses presented at those 12 inspections!) scored higher than yours!

RiverOaksFarm
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:46 PM
(bolding is mine)
I picked FSHR because it was the most welcoming for cross-breds and because it appeared to be the most oriented toward sport horses.
This is why I chose the FSHR as well.
www.FSHR.org

Margaret Freeman
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:50 PM
Duke's Mom --

I'm so excited for you. Duke seems to have blasted right past I1 and gone straight to the really fancy stuff. I'll be watching for you next year at GP!!

WBLover
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:52 PM
He was in the 2005 inspections, he was #1 in his region and #3 nationally that year. I'm getting his big fat neck ribbon sent to me, too! :D

Elegante E
Nov. 7, 2007, 04:58 PM
And did I mention he got an 80.5% at his AWS inspection--for what it's worth, and some may say it's not worth a whole lot! But I figured an 80.5% with the AWS should equate to a pretty decent score with a Euro registry!! ;)

I've been to one AWS inspection and if that was typical, then I'd say your 80% is an amazing score.

Thanks MF for the info.

DukesMom
Nov. 7, 2007, 05:13 PM
Hi Margaret,
He has a fantastic piaffe, passage and extended trot so why not get good scores on what he does well. Most of all he LOVES to do his job and since he knows his momma loves to do the fancy stuff he puts in a little extra effort in that area!:lol: (That and the fact that there may be sugar involved:D)
The I-2 test rides very well and I knew that it would be a good test for him. We have ridden through GP B a few times and all I can say is that I-2 is such a good step between I-1 and GP that I wonder why more don't ride it. Also, he is so good about putting up with my mistakes that I couldn't have asked for a better first dressage horse! All I have to do is remember to keep my bum still in the changes!:lol:

WBLover
Nov. 7, 2007, 05:17 PM
Yes, he was a Supreme. The lady I'm buying him from actually was going to keep him a stallion and he was still intact up until a month ago. She had more people interested in a gelding than a stallion, and she's getting a divorce so her plans for standing him have obviously changed. Even before he was gelded, he never acted studdish or unmanageable and you would have never know he was a stallion, he's always just been a good boy.

I think he'll make a much nicer gelding than a stallion anyways!

WBLover
Nov. 7, 2007, 05:19 PM
Duke's mom, have you had a lot of professional training help along the way?

Gallop On
Nov. 7, 2007, 11:06 PM
I thought that was a typo in the program.... We had just finished watching a horse that looked like a Friesian that was a Hanoverian ...? Lovely horse, Dukesmom!!! And I really liked your tribute to him in the program.

Donella
Nov. 8, 2007, 01:54 AM
Friesians were originally carriage horses; they were not originally intended for, or used for, dressage or even riding. They are not 'where dressage comes from', not in any way, shape or form. They are beautiful and very useful, and in recent years have been selected for sport, but let's not ignore 400 yrs of history just to make some point.

Ha I see this thread has been revived. Congrats to you WBLover! Take if from me when I say you CAN love them both. I don't know which breed I love more..my hano's or my mom's friesians. The more the merrier I guess. I hope you post some pics!

SLC..I don't mean to gang up on you lol. But I have to correct you on that statement. The whole friesians as drafthorses thing is a real common misperception. They were originally a riding horse, for most of their 400 yrs of history, there is no debate about that among breed historians. BUT it is true that the focus on agriculture in the late 1800's took its toll. They do (especially the "old style" horses) retain alot of the carriage charicteristics that can present a challenge when riding. The canter has been essentially bred out of them and anyone who owns a friesian will vouche for the fact that carrying weight on the stifles..and hence the canter is the sticky issue. Many also have a lazy hind leg (this can be improved though of course).

It is interesting to note though, that the FPS is REALLY focused on developing the breed into a competative dressage mount. They test all the stallions on walk and canter now, the look for an active, stepping under hind leg. They have virtually eliminated long backs and weak loins in the newly approved stallions (seriously, it's amazing). Short front legs are a thing of the past as well. The Dutch know what they are doing when it comes to breeding horses.:yes:

My mom ordered a video of all the approved stallions and wow, it is amazing how SUPER strict selection can rapidly change the phenotype. Every year, literally, you can see the improvements. Go back ten years, and they all look like carriage horses..short front legs, long backs , no engine, no ability to step under. Now...wow, the difference is startling.

slc2
Nov. 8, 2007, 08:59 AM
I never said they were draft horses, where in the WORLD did you get that????:no::no:

If you going to lecture me, at least have it be somewhat related to what i said!

DukesMom
Nov. 8, 2007, 11:45 AM
WBLover I have pretty much done all the training myself. I have taken regular three day clinics every other month for the past two years and that has pretty much been it. I think he has only been sat on a handful of times by other people since he was broke at 4 yrs (before I owned him). I taught him to do it all including Spanish walk and bow.

Thanks Gallop On! :D

Donella
Nov. 8, 2007, 05:08 PM
Sorry SLC, I sort of meant that in combo with the carriage horse comment. I know you didn't call them drafts, it is just a common misconception. I should have stated that more clearly.

RiverOaksFarm
Nov. 8, 2007, 06:19 PM
DukesMom, I would love to see photos.

DukesMom
Nov. 8, 2007, 06:48 PM
DukesMom, I would love to see photos.
Sending you some right now!

WBLover
Nov. 8, 2007, 07:09 PM
MEEEE TOOOO! I meant to ask before...

Also, it's official, his x-rays were clean and the check is in the mail. I'll post photos and video later....I'm almost afraid to show you all him because I'm afraid it will be anti-climatic with all the hyping up that's been done here....and his scores and him having been a stallion prospect and all....

I honestly don't think he was stallion material, but people breed lesser quality animals than him, and I do think he's a nice gelding, but I hope I'm just not blind....

Thomas_1
Nov. 8, 2007, 07:46 PM
"This is where dressage comes from. Anyone who thinks otherwise, has no clue. ". Mr No Clue here just to tell you that the friesian has always been a true dual purpose ride and drive horse. The Romans brought them to England and they influenced many of our native breeds. e.g. fells, dales, clydesdales. They were used in medieval times for mounted knights and because they were such showy black horses.


Friesians were originally carriage horses; they were not originally intended for, or used for, dressage or even riding. You're wrong. They've always been a dual purpose horse


They are not 'where dressage comes from', not in any way, shape or form. They are beautiful and very useful, and in recent years have been selected for sport, but let's not ignore 400 yrs of history just to make some point. You might want to do some better research on the breed

One of their greatest assets is what has made them develop further into exceptional light harness horses and that is their very active, fast trot. They flex their legs high and it looks spectacular and its because of that they became a fashionable and speedy way to travel in the 18th century. They hugely influenced the Orlov Trotter and the Norfolk Trotter and then in turn the Hackney Horse and through the Norfolk Trotter the Amercian Morgan.

They were used in trotting races as long ago as the 19th century.

Make no mistake though they have always been riding horses.

sm
Nov. 8, 2007, 08:02 PM
well, here's a nice history:

WAR HORSES
"By the early Middles Ages, the horse was already known by the name of the area in which it originated. Because of their strength and agility Friesians were coveted war horses and they carried knights in the Crusades and into battle."

DRIVING AFTER NEAR EXTINCTION
"In spite of its long history, the Friesian breed almost died out by the mid-1960’s. But after regaining some visibility in its native Friesland, the Friesian horse soon appeared on the international driving scene."

Not that I was there and can swear to it, guys. Just excerpted their long history from http://www.knappfriesians.com/SPECTACULAR/New/history.html

FriesianX
Nov. 8, 2007, 09:27 PM
Congratulations WBLover - I think you will become a convert and join our COTH FXAS (or whatever I called it ;)

Obi
Nov. 10, 2007, 03:39 PM
Yippee! Anther convert has crossed to the dark side:winkgrin:

I love that expression...COTH FXAS! :lol::lol::lol:

Just wondering if there was this much talk many years ago when the warmbloods breeds started getting crossed with non-warm blood breeds (TB's, etc.) Did they start their own secret society until their horses proved themselves?

Elegante E
Nov. 10, 2007, 05:22 PM
WBLover - hope you have a great time with your cross. Rode my older one today and he was such a good boy. He's finally getting the idea of forward, something the hot weather discouraged - and when he moves it's magic. Now, if I could only get my schedule settled and ride him more than once a week, he'd actually make better progress. Hope you have great joy with your new boy.

Margaret Freeman
Nov. 12, 2007, 10:08 AM
Michele (aka FriesianX) -- How did your DSHB go over the weekend?