Using Ace while hunting?

[av0055]

My daughter capped with a hunt during cubbing yesterday, on her at times silly TB gelding. She stayed at the back of the second field.

Her horse did some sideways cantering, some piaffes and other silliness, but she was never out of control. She was told by an elderly member that she needed to give her horse Ace, that he gave his horse Ace and that other members Ace their horses before hunting. Is this common thing when hunting?

We were surprised at this advice and think this would be dangerous in the extreme, and would never Ace a horse that you planned to ride, much less hunt, but now I'm curious.

[Ray]

If the horse is in control, and does not pass the horse in front (unintentionally, that is), and they are in the back of the second field, I dont see a problem. She could check with her field master for some "feedback". When capping one needs to respect the opinions of Sr members with colors, but that does not mean go out and do what they suggest. Just lunging or going for a 30 minute warm-up ride might help ?

That said, many many people Ace their horses for hunting. A very small dose, just to take the edge off.

[Beverley]

I know many people who do it, but I never, ever would. I keep remembering the ugly show-ring crash of an 'aced' horse I witnessed in the 70s. As Ray pointed out, silly TB antics really aren't (or shouldn't be) an issue so long as the horse is under control and not bouncing of others in the field.

'My' silly TB did much the same thing and while I more frequently used him for whipping-in, I did hunt him in the field periodically. His antics bothered no one (and when hounds were running, he was all business with his galloping and jumping). I did discover an approach you might want to consider- mine was 'very' reactive to his grain (even though it was only 10 percent to 12 percent protein) and I found that by simply withholding his breakfast on hunting mornings (but providing hay to munch on en route) he was orders of magnitude less 'silly.'

[LittleSpotBlog]

I don't like riding horses that have been Aced, but it seems like more and more foxhunters are doing it these days. The only way it sounds reasonable to me are by using the granulated pellets orally, which do not have as marked an effect and which aid in smoother transitions in and out of the drug.

But I agree with the previous posters that if the horse is in control at all times, he probably doesn't need it. Plus you'll get better results in the long run riding through those difficulties rather that drugging through them.

[J Swan]

I found that diet, tack and management made a big difference. I gave my horse Ace a couple of times when I first started - not for his giggles - but because he was coming off the trailer looking like he was about to keel over and die. Sweating, trembling, bug eyed - just incredibly worked up.

I talked to my vet and we decided that 1/2 to 1 cc of Ace about 1/2 hour prior to loading would help him get over the anticipation prior to starting out.

It did - and it was worn off long before the first draw. So in that specific instance it did help him. But for the rest of the normal green horse giggles, I just sat it out and got embarrassed a lot.

If the horse is just being silly, but is not a danger to himself or others, you may want to just ride it out. In the meantime, you may want to talk to your vet about changes you can make in his diet or routine that might help as well.

[etc.]

I used to turn my horse out the morning of the hunt, or if the weather was nice, the night before. It's not like he galloped around and exhausted himself. It just took the edge off.

[Bogie]

I suggest asking your vet for a recommendation.

I know many people who give ACE to their horses before hunting -- mostly as a way to keep them calm at the beginning. In most cases, I suspect the effects have pretty much worn off before the actual hunt begins. I have used ACE in that way and have never had a problem.

There are many calming products other than ACE that are available -- which one works for your daughter's horse is kind of hit and miss. My TB responds very well to Quiessence which is a magnesium and Vitamin B supplement. It's made him far less anxious. But what works for one horse doesn't always work for the next.

A certain amount of playing around may well be normal for your horse -- did it concern your daughter? If not, she may well be able to ride through it.

[goats4sale]

We have one horse that we would give a 1/2 cc of Ace to right before loading him on the trailer on the morning of the hunt. It took the edge off and had worn off long before the hunt started. It made life easier for him. Now, less than a year later, we no longer have to give him anything on hunt mornings.

The first day of cubbing a field member rode past me. Her horse was dancing and spinning and walking on his hind legs. She looks at me with terror in her eyes and says "This is with 1.5 cc of ACE!"

I totally agree with the above poster. NOTHING takes the place of schooling, diet, proper fitting tack and schooling. Ace can just ease the jitters.

[<3OTTB]

You may want to look into some other calming agents like Bach Flower Remedy or homeopathic valerian.

That's great that your daughter was in control. I would not ACE based on what you have said.

I am all for giving a horse a good experience so if he is green you may want to consider using something.

[armandh]

my previous hunt horse [photo in my profile] could be strong for the first 20 minutes of the hunt and a few times ace was recommended, however I found a change in diet can be very effective [see below]

[florida foxhunter]

There has been a big debate of the effect of ace........can a horse learn on it??? Is it "addictive"?? ( if a horse always hunts feeling one way, can you one day take him "cold turkey" and have him be okay.......or extra sensitive now that he's not under the influence and thing seem so different to him.

I knew of another hunt (not mine!!) where a horse dropped dead under the whipper in ...........now I've heard the rumor that they gave ace (2 cc), and then gave extra while out running........

Ace affects blood pressure............so while 1/2 cc before leaving the meet may be acceptable in some situations.......don't let it get out of hand.........
In my opinion, it can be very dangerous!!

[SLW]

The practice of acing horses for riding is done across the board. I would not knowingly ride a horse which had been aced.

My vet treats ace like a controlled drug- it does not go out the clinic door unless it is for a regular client working w/ a horse recovering/being treated for an injury which he attended to.

The reason: he sells ace to a client, client aces it's own horse/their kids horse/gives it to neighbor to use before riding. Aced horse causes rider accident and the lawyers/insurance companies come searching for the ace supplier. Not worth it.

He'll say the same as above: examine diet, exercise, turnout and is the horse suitable for the rider and/or task being asked of it.

[Petalstorm]

Obviously, as with any medication and even with 'holistic' preperations, the correct dosage is absolutely essential. Overdoing anything is a BAD idea.

That being said, a gram of Ace is worth a try IMHO.

If it helps, why not?

[Jaegermonster]

i have done it in very small amounts. As others said, you have to be very careful. And I tried EVERYTHING from management to feed changes and everything in between. This guy was a project horse and just had a ton of issues. And I am no weenie, any one who knows me knows it was only a last resort.
That said, he got 1/2 cc (17.2 hh TBX) when he came out of the trailer, and by the time I was ready to mount up he was more relaxed and could pay attention.
He was a total freak as soon as the hounds came out of the trailer, and the ace just helped him lose the edge for that 15 minutes or so while all the mustering up and so forth was going on. Like someone else said, I think by the time the actual hunting started, it had way more than worn off.
And he was no picnic then either but as long as all four feet were in the general area of the ground I just rode through it all.

Now, I have known people who aced their kids ponies at hunts (which I would never do) or gave a lot of ace all the time. I only did this guy a few times and in very small amounts, and it really seemed to help. He got a lot better, but hunting was never really his thing, so I sold him on.
Most people screw up in that they give the ace too late, or wait til the horse is already excited and then give it, which you might as well not bother.
And you also need to be careful giving it to a male horse as it can cause penile paralysis.

[Seven]

I know quite a few who ace for hunting. For most of the horses they get a little for the first few outings cubbing to take the edge off the excitement factor and most stop getting any during the regular season (or get such a small amount it's worn off by the time of hunting starts). So I think you can use it and then "hunt cold turkey" without it and be okay - depends on the horse though and for what reason he's getting it.

And I talked to my vet about it as an option for my horse - she also thought it was a good idea. She said that Ace is an extremely mild tranquilizer and most horses (mine included) just have it relax them versus actually putting them into a sedated state (like domesdan might). Motivated enough, the horse can blow right thru ace as if it was never given, so it doesn't work for a horse that's completely unsuitable for the task to start.

That said, it doesn't work on all horses and you have to know how it effects your horse. I think I could have loaded my filly on a full dose syringe of the stuff and it never had any effect on her (naturally we didn't but she did get a lot once from the vet...to no effect). An older gelding I have would take a nap on 1 cc. So I definitely wouldn't try it for the first time on hunting day!

[wateryglen]

Second that suggestion to leave them turned out all night before hunting. Even for 24hrs! And don't whine about how dirty he might get. Put a sheet on him and start earlier. And be sure to leave time to catch them! :winkgrin: Had one that figured out the only time I came to get him in the dark was going hunting and he became hard to catch with a flashlight!!! But all that running around got us both warmed up!!

And I've had luck with feed changes or skipping breakfast too. Had one on Clovite and found it made him hot. Ditto for alfalfa hay! Corn. Sweet feed switched to pellets. Switched or changed with success. Also....don't get them TOO fit. Ease into fitness as the season progresses. A totally fit horse at the start of the season can be a handful! But riding it out is a good suggestion. Get to the meet early and hack around to relax them. If your're nervous or in a rush; they feel it too. Have even seen people lunging before a meet - I can't get into that but whatever floats your boat!

[LookinSouth]

That said, many many people Ace their horses for hunting. A very small dose, just to take the edge off.

Interesting. Why is that?? Are the horses not sane enough to go out undrugged??

Not drugging was one of the sale points of a seller who specializes in foxhunters when my friend was seriously considering a TB they had for sale. The seller made a big deal about the fact that the TB hunted quietly and wasn't drugged. She said that MOST hunt horses are drugged when out hunting :eek:
Said friend didn't buy the horse cause there was other suspicious things about the horse that didn't line up with what she said but regardless I found this info shocking. I was skeptical of her from the get go though because she also responded that ALL foxhunters are ridden in 3 ring elevators or pelhams when hunting when I inquired about why her supposed "packer, dead broke TB" was in a 3 ring in all the hunting photos.

Funny cause the horse said friend DID end up purchasing was phenomenal at a drag hunt/foxhunting clinic this past weekend in a copper wire wrapped full cheek, undrugged, unlunged and BARELY ridden recently :lol::lol:

I guess we just have quiet horses cause my horse wasn't drugged or lunged either and was quite good despite his capacity to get hot and competitive in "hot" company.

[LookinSouth]

Second that suggestion to leave them turned out all night before hunting. Even for 24hrs! !


Well that could explain it, both of mine are turned out 24/7 with run-ins and I certainly can attest to the fact that my horse is total nut job when stalled regularly :D

[Just My Style]

JMHO- I would no sooner ride a drugged horse than I would get in a car to drive home with someone who has had a few cocktails. I prefer my horses and drivers sober.

[Beverley]

Lookin' South asked: "Interesting. Why is that?? Are the horses not sane enough to go out undrugged??"

I would venture to say that most of them are sane enough without the chemistry. If they aren't (long term), it's really better for horse and rider the horse is given some other job, he and his rider will be happier and safer.

Many times in my experience, the horse is 'aced' because of rider confidence issues. I had a friend who would even 'pretend' to administer ace because of rider requests. Riders, thinking horses were aced, were relaxed, and so the horses were relaxed, too. Other times, it's just a training short cut.

I share Just My Style's opinion. I'd really rather just take however long it takes for a horse to learn, and be relaxed, for whatever task is at hand. I've had friends purchase or borrow horses from one trainer who is known to train 'on ace' and makes no secret of it. The friends were disappointed in those horses' skills, particularly over fences. I also, decades ago, helped to completely reschool a former AHSA working hunter champion (national) who had been trained and shown exclusively on the needle. It took us two years and a lot of patience, but that horse was terrific, a solid and happy citizen, and we even got him out hunting as I recall.

Ace can be a useful tool for a lot of different things. But I would say I don't approve when it's used as a crutch or short cut instead of a tool.

[Lori]

Back in VA, it was called "kool aid" when my ex wanted to get into the hunting scene. It amazed me how casually it was given to the horses. We were told to give 1cc in mouth in the trailer, no big deal, everyone does it, blahblahblah.
We aced one of the greenies one time. She was calmer out there, but felt clumsy on her feet (not a good feeling going through hazards) and she started "coming out of it" at almost the end of the ride. Cold sweat/clammy skin, started looking around like "where am I?". I think that was more scary than her being clumsy!
I never did that again. She was more of a handful the next time out, but neither of us ever considered doing that again.
When I bought my pony, they told me he hilltopped. Well, come to find out AFTER I purchased him (I inquired because he was a spaz when out with other horses and the young daughter slipped info to me) that they had gone first flight with him and aced him on the hunts. "Just ace him" was the response.

Nope, won't do it.

[Ware Whip!]

JMHO- I would no sooner ride a drugged horse than I would get in a car to drive home with someone who has had a few cocktails. I prefer my horses and drivers sober.

Amen,
W W!

[Huntin'Fool]

Hey, I am a *big* believer in consulting the experts-one double blind trial is worth all the apocraphal (sp) stories in the world. That said I consulted the local University's vet school and my *very* respected vet. The vet school told me of a study done with racehorses in which they were given ace. Up to 1cc resulted in no more accidents then not using ace. My vet agreed whole heartedly. I've never had a vet tell me ace could cause a horse to have an embolism etc.-I guess if you gave one enough you could make his heart stop.

I think the key is to use responsibly in correct dose. For a green horse who is going to get very wound up and end up with a bad experience for horse and rider-a bit of ace is no big deal. If a horse is *untrained* or just insane no amount of ace will make him safe or enjoyable in the field. I've started 2 horses on a bit of ace for their first few hunts-they did learn, were soon not using ace, and had IMHO a much better experience than otherwise. Huntin'Fool

[Bogie]

Hey, I am a *big* believer in consulting the experts-one double blind trial is worth all the apocraphal (sp) stories in the world. That said I consulted the local University's vet school and my *very* respected vet. The vet school told me of a study done with racehorses in which they were given ace. Up to 1cc resulted in no more accidents then not using ace. My vet agreed whole heartedly. I've never had a vet tell me ace could cause a horse to have an embolism etc.-I guess if you gave one enough you could make his heart stop.

I think the key is to use responsibly in correct dose. For a green horse who is going to get very wound up and end up with a bad experience for horse and rider-a bit of ace is no big deal. If a horse is *untrained* or just insane no amount of ace will make him safe or enjoyable in the field. I've started 2 horses on a bit of ace for their first few hunts-they did learn, were soon not using ace, and had IMHO a much better experience than otherwise. Huntin'Fool

My vet is in this camp, too. Whenever making a decision about medical care, "Dr. Internet" is not always to be trusted. My vet pokes fun at me for reading the forums (even though I have learned a lot here.)

[flash1]

LookinSouth -- Were you at the clinic at Tyrone Farm this past weekend??

[Bearx2]

I would try the drug out before the hunt. I had a mare that ace made worst not better!

[LookinSouth]

LookinSouth -- Were you at the clinic at Tyrone Farm this past weekend??

Yes I was :). I was on a big chestnut Gelding and rode with my friend on a Dark Bay w/ white blaze/socks Gelding.

[Painted Wings]

I have never aced to hunt but have aced to work in crowds. I would not hesitate to give a low dose of Ace for the first few hunts if I had a horse that had a lot of anxst over it. I would not continue to hunt a horse that needed ace on a regular basis.

[swansong]

I agree that most people including myself use ACE often when hunting. It should only be used by someone who knows how to use it and what the effect is on their horse. After all, hunting is not a competition. You are only doing it for your own enjoyment and a little ACE can turn a miserable day into a wonderful experience. However, If your horse requires more than 1/2 to 1cc, then perhaps he should find another job. He obviously isn't meant to be in the hunt field!. Just remember as you are jigging and spinning around that you are not only having a bad day yourself but you are probably ruining someone elses day too!

[goeslikestink]

if you cant control your horse then you shouldnt do the disapline