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vineyridge
Sep. 22, 2007, 08:42 PM
One of the mares for sale at the Fairmount Park Paddock sale is tail female Selene in the fifth. Selene was the dam of Pharamond, Sickle, Hyperion, Hunter's Moon, and other winners.
http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Selene.html

Is the fifth back too far to be interested if the line is tail female?

K~2
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:31 PM
Race breeding is all about "What have you done for me lately?"

5 generations back is of very little significance.

Pronzini
Sep. 23, 2007, 12:14 AM
Ditto. If it doesn't show up on a standard catalog page, don't expect many to care about it.

Simkie
Sep. 23, 2007, 02:07 AM
When I first bought Blush, there were several people on the pedigree query boards who breed horses for the track that thought it was good that she had Uvira as her tail female, and a couple people who had thought about purchasing her because of her tail female. So I suppose it depends on who you are talking to.

KBEquine
Sep. 23, 2007, 07:53 PM
There are several types of TB breeders, the most prevalent, as someone said, are the "What have you done for me lately?" types.

There are those who concentrate on & even cherish GOOD female families & believe that the qualities of a Selene can be produced many generations later, with careful matings.

BUT those people are few & far between - and would have to know that it is a direct female line to Selene, which as has been mentioned, doesn't show up on a traditional catalog page.

Flypony
Sep. 23, 2007, 10:56 PM
I buy yearlings, lots of them. I pay attention to 5 back on everything on tail female. One of my yearlings is out of a mare called Bug's Rabbit, she has a lovely tail-female side. I don't really like the yearlings sire though.

Pronzini
Sep. 24, 2007, 10:29 AM
I guess the question comes down to what it means to you. It means absolutely nothing commercially and don't forget that if you breed a foal from the mare, Selene is now the 6th dam of the foal.

Also I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that this "good family" is running for a few thousand dollars at Fairmount Park, which if it isn't the bottom of the barrel racingwise in this country, they certainly can see it from there.

Again she could make someone a lovely saddle horse but as a racebreeding prospect, her appeal is pretty limited. Some pedigree aficionado may recognize the name--and I don't want to sound like a complete pedigree Neanderthal because I recognize the name and that mare's influence 60 or so years ago--but if the picture reveals that she is some tiny slab sided back at the knee filly, I'll put my fugly horse hat on and say that she could descend from the right hand of the Almighty and not be breeding material.

That said, I hope she finds a nice home, but personally I wouldn't be looking for broodmares out of these kinds of sales.

On the Farm
Sep. 24, 2007, 05:47 PM
I guess the question comes down to what it means to you. It means absolutely nothing commercially and don't forget that if you breed a foal from the mare, Selene is now the 6th dam of the foal.

Also I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that this "good family" is running for a few thousand dollars at Fairmount Park, which if it isn't the bottom of the barrel racingwise in this country, they certainly can see it from there.

Again she could make someone a lovely saddle horse but as a racebreeding prospect, her appeal is pretty limited. Some pedigree aficionado may recognize the name--and I don't want to sound like a complete pedigree Neanderthal because I recognize the name and that mare's influence 60 or so years ago--but if the picture reveals that she is some tiny slab sided back at the knee filly, I'll put my fugly horse hat on and say that she could descend from the right hand of the Almighty and not be breeding material.

That said, I hope she finds a nice home, but personally I wouldn't be looking for broodmares out of these kinds of sales.

Yep, I've seen several well intentioned people lose their shirts trying to outsmart the industry by breeding a cheap mare to a (usually) equally cheap stallion. Nothing like throwing lots and lots of good money at a small investment of bad money.

vineyridge
Sep. 24, 2007, 10:47 PM
This is what I don't understand about TB breeding. There are lots of places that are the back of Bumfart that have racing. TBs are bred in all states, or almost all. If the racing is regional, and the lines are regional, does that make them bad?

Do the big interests only play with themselves, or do they send talent scouts out to the minor leagues? If a mare isn't in Florida or Kentucky or NY or California would she be noticed? I guess what I'm thinking about is the old question, If a tree falls in the forest with no one around to hear, is there a noise? (From the late 1700's, Bishop Berkeley)

Evalee Hunter
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:39 PM
. . . . Do the big interests only play with themselves, or do they send talent scouts out to the minor leagues? If a mare isn't in Florida or Kentucky or NY or California would she be noticed? . . .

The "big interests" don't need to send talent scouts because TB racing has the best record keeping and record reporting systems that exist. All the "big interests" need to do is look at the results for stakes races (probably only those stakes races paying over $50,000 in purses). There's a mare winning such stakes races in East Bumpitybump? Then the "big interests" might take a look at her. But they can find her just by reading magazines, by going on-line & so on. If they find an interesting name, they can add her to their "virtual stable" & follow her every move - every work, every entry, every race, every finish.

But most of the mares in East Bumpitybump are racing in claiming races. Racing 74 times (26 times in one year) & being in the money 35 times in $10,000 claimers doesn't catch the attention of the "big interests". They are not worried about a good mind that can handle racing every week, or sound legs that can handle racing every week, they are worried about BLACK TYPE.

And, by the way, there is good racing that gets noticed in Delaware, and Maryland, and Virginia, and Pennsylvania, & other states, too.

Drvmb1ggl3
Sep. 25, 2007, 12:20 PM
There is very little in the way of regional bloodlines anymore. You will find KY bred GSWs standing at stud in small provincial markets, esp with the large books that top stallions are covering, it pushes the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier stallions further out into the hinterlands.

Horse racing is very similar in many respects to the structure of Major and minor league baseball. If a horse is cleaning up at the bottom end, it will move up, if for no other reason than there is more money to be made. A prefect example being a horse like John Henry who ran for pitiful purses in Louisiana before working his way up the ladder to the big leagues. Another, non-US example, would be the recently retired Collier Hill, who started his career in a bumper and then maiden hurdles and later blossomed into a multiple G1 winner on several continents.
Those horses are the exceptions though and the movement generally tends to be in the other direction, as the best bred horses, which invariably are the better horses, tend to start out at the big tracks and move down as their true ability, or lack thereof, becomes apparent, until they hit a level they are competitive at.

In this day and age you can watch just about every race that is run, 100s every day, either live or via replay. If a horse is good enough, it will be found. An impressive win in a maiden at Prairie Meadows will ripple it's way out to Remington, then onto LSP, and if it's good enough, further afield.

If you really think having Selene as the 6th dam is the key to a top racehorse, then maybe you should breed to race and prove it to the world. There is no better test of pedigree theories than the race track, as Tesio proved.

SleepyFox
Sep. 25, 2007, 01:47 PM
This is what I don't understand about TB breeding. There are lots of places that are the back of Bumfart that have racing. TBs are bred in all states, or almost all. If the racing is regional, and the lines are regional, does that make them bad?

No, not bad. But, the idea is that horses wind up in regional programs b/c they aren't of a caliber to compete with the "big boys." If a talented horse is in a regional program, the big guys are going to take notice. There are a lot of people that watch race results, work times, produce records and sire stats trying to snatch a deal out of smaller markets.

The problem with the mare in question is that - from my very casual perusal of the catalog - she doesn't have much else going for her besides her very strong 5th dam. And, a 5th dam isn't enough to carry a mare in TB race breeding. I have a colt on the track now who's 6th dam is La Troienne and... well, nobody really cares. :)

That said, could this mare be a good deal for someone looking to breed to race with a stallion that nicked well with her pedigree? Sure. These small sales can be a good source of deals. But, you definitely have to shop hard b/c there is a lot of chaff to wade through, too. :)

The "mistake" (depending on your point of view) that I see a lot of people make in the TB breeding business is applying the pedigree rules of other breeds. In QH, Arabs, sporthorse TBs, etc. etc. people get excited about horses in the third, fourth and beyond generations. And, while most serious breeders and buyers of TBs consider at least 5 generations.... it's all about what the sire, dam and damsire have done. I hear a lot of regional TB breeders talk about a "Gone West" stallion or a "Mr. Prospector" mare, when what they really mean is the stallion is by an unknown son of Gone West or the mare is out of a daughter of an obscure Mr. P son. In QHs, that's still a big deal, but in racing TB's it's a joke. In fact, there is an old racetrack joke that goes: "This horse is well bred - he's from the family of Eclipse." :lol:

And, speaking as someone in Bumfart, I think the reason more of the big boys don't come to Bumfart to search for horses is because they know that most of the horses in Bumfart belong here. Despite the fact that they are by unraced grandsons of Gone West and out of a great grand daughter of Bold Ruler's brother.... ;)

Pronzini
Sep. 25, 2007, 03:29 PM
The problem with the mare in question is that - from my very casual perusal of the catalog - she doesn't have much else going for her besides her very strong 5th dam. And, a 5th dam isn't enough to carry a mare in TB race breeding. I have a colt on the track now who's 6th dam is La Troienne and... well, nobody really cares. :)



I think we have to remember that this mare's dam's 4th dam was Selene and she produced this horse running at Fairmount Park who will probably sell for less than $1000. Yes sometimes breeders can be shortsighted about new sires and all that but the ones who last aren't financially suicidal.

A breeder quite logically might note that magic hasn't happened in the last 2 or 3 generations of this family tree. When is it going to happen and how much money will it take are quite rational questions when you look at what it costs to raise a horse for the track.

vineyridge
Sep. 26, 2007, 12:34 AM
I'm not going to pursue it at all, but it's mostly because I'm too old to get into a multi-generation breeding program, which is what it would take to upgrade this mare. I need to save my retirement money for survival instead of blowing it on a dream.

If I were 15 or 20 years younger, I might give it a shot.