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Fantastic
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:37 AM
Hmmmm. A bunch of B.S.

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/holland/2007/power-rollkur.html

Statement Issued by Coby van Baalen

"Yesterday, Friday 21 September, I have been contacted by a number of persons that pictures of Power and Paint (taken during the lunging at the European Championships 2007 in Freudenberg) circulated on the internet. A Swedish magazine has asked me for a reaction on the relevant pictures. I think it is absolutely appropriate that people ask me to react in case my stable, my students or myself are the subject of wild discussions, which are unfounded. Therefore, I have decided to react on these discussions by way of this letter.

Reaction

In short, my reaction to the Swedish magazine comes down to the following. The fact is that the photographer took these pictures in the first minute of the lunge with Power and Point and so, they do not tell the whole story. You can see that it is the start of the lunge as the pony is either standing or walking and he is not sweating from the exercise. In the pictures, both myself and my student are looking at the pony and immediately saw that the lunge was not established correctly. We allow the pony to walk a couple of seconds and change the lunge immediately so that it is in its normal position. (if you immediately saw that it was wrong, then why walk the pony in that possition? Why not take it off immediately?) After that, we have been able to lunge the pony in a good way, resulting in the pony’s looseness with a beautiful posture. Unfortunately, the photographer was not interested in this and did not make pictures of that, which I regret.

It serves no purpose to lunge a horse/pony in the way shown on the relevant pictures. We always lunge in the normal way (if you always lunge in the normal way, then why would you make such a huge ERROR and crank the side reins so tight the pony's nose is to his chest?) and this was a one-off incident from which my student has learned and which lasted no longer than half a minute.

The various forums and blogs on the internet do not pay attention to my reaction, but prefer to draw conclusions themselves. They have every right to do so, but the conclusions are completely wrong. (the pictures speak 1000 words! you are supposed to be a professional and know what you are doing. you would not "accidently" go to such an extreme with the side reins!)
Power and Paint

For years, Power and Paint is the most successful pony of The Netherlands with three different riders from Dressage Stable Van Baalen. Our training sessions are open for the public and everyone is allowed to come and visit our trainings, which happens a lot.

Power and Paint is not pitiful. He gets the best possible care and training and is treated with the highest degree of respect at our stables, as are all other horses at our stables.

Angela Krooswijk

About Angela Krooswijk, I would like to say the following. Angela is an unprecedented talent and a very concentrated competition rider. Angela has respect for her horses and ponies (if she has respect, then she should have stepped in and not allowed the cranked side reins!) and has accomplished a lot considering her age.

Clarity

I hope that, by way of this letter, I have clarified the situation and the background of the pictures and our way of training. To be absolutely clear: it serves no purpose to lunge in this particular way, it was a one-off incident (Oh, stop the nonsense you are caught red handed, Coby! just admit that this is the norm for you, otherwise you wouldn't (again) have made such an ERROR with the side reins!) which was immediately corrected and this is not at all our daily training mode. Everyone can see that at our stables in Brakel or read that in our books.

In the event that there are questions or remarks in relation to the above, I would like to invite the relevant person to send me an email at info@dressuurstalvanbaalen.nl (I think everyone that disagrees with her lunging style should send her and email!) instead of spreading all sorts of incorrect stories.

With kind regards,

Coby van Baalen"

Unbelievable B.S.!

Red Barn
Sep. 22, 2007, 04:59 PM
Thanks for posting the entire statement.

Utter BS indeed! And, to tell the truth, I'm rather surprised she'd expect anybody to believe it. (Perhaps she doesn't?)

This saddens me because I admire her so much as a rider. I've even used pictures of her to show my students how simultaneously functional and elegant a good position can be.

No more, I guess . . . I'll have to use photos of Linda Parelli instead.

Elegante E
Sep. 22, 2007, 05:06 PM
Have to agree, sounds like BS to me too. Far from a longing expert here, but in theory, I've read and been told by my trainer that one always starts the horse on the loosest setting for sidereins so the horse may stretch and warm up it's back - same principle as when one rides. Cranking that pony's head to its shoulder makes no sense but only shows the tremendous restraint of the lovely animal.

philosoraptor
Sep. 22, 2007, 05:11 PM
I didn't know about these photos until now, so I wasn't sure what the discussion was about. I traced the links backwards. Is it safe to assume these are the pics in question? (http://www.syndicatlinaro.com/SLforum/read.php?f=1&i=22151&t=22151) (Comments under them aren't in English, so I don't know for sure)

philosoraptor
Sep. 22, 2007, 05:15 PM
I now see the link is posted in another, older thread on this topic. Sorry for the dumb question.

siegi b.
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:36 PM
So, Fantastic, I assume you were there and that's why you write with such authority?

Otherwise I have to add your opinion to the pile of many others that don't know what they are talking about and are just looking for something to get high and mighty about.

dutchmike
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:50 PM
So, Fantastic, I assume you were there and that's why you write with such authority?

Otherwise I have to add your opinion to the pile of many others that don't know what they are talking about and are just looking for something to get high and mighty about.

Oh come on siegi you have to admit the photo's are hard to talk out of and her justification would be acceptable if someone has had a horse for a week but not from someone that has worked with horses for years. Coby should have thought of a better lie or should have just said that is the way she works and thatis how she gets the results and that is it. The excuses she is giving is underestimating the intelligence of the average person. What is next rehab?.:lol:

BarbB
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:56 PM
Well, at least all the negative comments got someone's attention.
They probably won't do this again.....at least not where anyone can see.

Jealoushe
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:01 PM
Thats the first time Ive seen those photos, having her experience how could set that up and not know what you were doing. Yikes

petitefilly
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:07 PM
Well, at least all the negative comments got someone's attention.
They probably won't do this again.....at least not where anyone can see.

This might be the biggest problem. People want to *close* warm up from the public. Riders fear the press and the public at large, because if everyone saw what was going on their reputations might suffer. <sigh> I fear the problems, but I fear the problems the horses will have ultimately if warm up is a secret event for riders. MHO Riders need to be up front about teaching practices, and lying about your training will never win over the nay sayers so why even attempt it? At least today we can have a person photograph highly unsavory events so at least we can discuss them.

It's a slippery slope and many will suffer, and are suffering under the hands of people who think they know all there is to know about training a horse. :( It's all very sad. MHO

Sithly
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:11 PM
Interesting that you put your comments right into the text. It's like Mystery Science Theater 3000, except less funny.

J-Lu
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:14 PM
So, Fantastic, I assume you were there and that's why you write with such authority?

Otherwise I have to add your opinion to the pile of many others that don't know what they are talking about and are just looking for something to get high and mighty about.

Seigi B, even *I* would not have set up a pony in this way, and if I did, even *I* would have fixed in 1 step.

The pictures don't lie - they are PROOF of what happened. It's not an opinion, it is a record. The resolution is pretty good so you can be assured that the photographer was close enough that Coby knew she was being photographed.

Pretty much, you either agree with her choice of longing technique or you don't. But please don't believe that someone the caliber of Coby made any kind of mistake here.

J.

claire
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:29 PM
Seigi B,
Pretty much, you either agree with her choice of longing technique or you don't. But please don't believe that someone the caliber of Coby made any kind of mistake here.J.

Exactly. Which begs the question: Why would Coby feel the need to say it was a "mistake" instead of having the courage to stand behind her chosen method of training? :confused:

dalpal
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:35 PM
Personally, I agree with Fantastic....I'm not buying the "Oops, I just accidentally cranked this pony's head into his butt and it just took me a few rounds to figure out why his head looked like that..I had to discuss it with my 15 year old student before I finally put two and two together as to why his head was in his butt, it just took us a couple walk laps to figure that one out. And that mean photographer took pictures and placed them on the web."

I guess if this is her defense, you have to ask yourself, would you want your horse/pony in training with someone who must be utterly clueless and takes them a few minutes to realize that they have lunging gear on incorrectly?

I do agree that at least this has sparked some outrage and she'll at least think twice about doing it out in public.

EasyStreet
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:58 PM
Exactly. Which begs the question: Why would Coby feel the need to say it was a "mistake" instead of having the courage to stand behind her chosen method of training? :confused:

Because she knows it is WRONG, whether she gets the results she wants or not!! There is absolutly NO way she applied those sidereins without feeling the EXTREME tention that had to be on them evev before the pony took one itty bitty step!! Poppycock! Pure BS!

dray
Sep. 22, 2007, 11:12 PM
Nuchal and Dorsal Ligaments aren't stressed on this darling pony...not to mention C1 C2....yep...I AM being sarcastic.

I'm not buying. There is no way this is a mistake-accident. Can't think of how this "MISTAKE" could happen. Oh...the tack was set for the Miniature Horse that we used just before. Why didn't she just say so?

Donna

siegi b.
Sep. 23, 2007, 01:22 PM
I never looked at any pictures because I saw the number of postings on that thread and figured it was another "rollkur" debacle.

The only thing I object to is when people "elaborate" on something somebody else said without having any background on the situation save a few pictures and certainly without having been there.

But if you guys like this sort of thing then by all means.. have at it!

Daydream Believer
Sep. 23, 2007, 04:30 PM
So Siegi...you don't object to what they are doing to that pony?

EqTrainer
Sep. 23, 2007, 04:51 PM
I never looked at any pictures because I saw the number of postings on that thread and figured it was another "rollkur" debacle.

The only thing I object to is when people "elaborate" on something somebody else said without having any background on the situation save a few pictures and certainly without having been there.

But if you guys like this sort of thing then by all means.. have at it!

I normally don't look either. But I did look at this one and Siegi B.... you cannot NOT say Oh My God! When you look at it. Not to mention that it is highly unlikely that if he had not been accustomed to being tied into that position, because if he was not used to it he probably would have exploded. But no, in the pic he's just taking it. Very sad.

siegi b.
Sep. 23, 2007, 05:02 PM
There are a lot of pictures I don't look at, but I believe you when you say it looks gross. Just like I think it looks gross when somebody rides with bad contact and the poor horse gets hit in the mouth every other step, or a Western horse spends hours in a stall tied down, or a 300 lb person bounces on top of a little quarterhorse, etc. etc. etc. No argument from me!

However, I do object to people then insinuating all kinds of motives making an already gross picture seem even worse. Why? The saying is that "a picture is worth a thousand words"... in the case of some COTH posters it should be "a picture gives me the opportunity to type thousands of words". Is that what it's all about? The COTH forum being the National Enquirer of dressage?

dutchmike
Sep. 23, 2007, 05:28 PM
Siegi some pictures are discussable this ones leaves no doubt. All I can say she is busted wich is fine. Everyone can do what they want rollkur, no rollkur. Whatever works for each one as long as it is legal. Atleast stand for what you believe in don't give bs excuses and insult my intelligence and that is exactly what Coby's statement does.

BelleBoyd
Sep. 23, 2007, 06:21 PM
If you read further down the thread not all of it is in French. I was just flipping down and noticed English with the "letter" from Coby. Then below it is the photographer's response (the one that actually took the pictures). I would quote it, but I'm not sure about BB rules, etc. and I don't want to get shuuuunnnnned!!!

arnika
Sep. 23, 2007, 08:13 PM
by siegi b.
There are a lot of pictures I don't look at, but I believe you when you say it looks gross. Just like I think it looks gross when somebody rides with bad contact and the poor horse gets hit in the mouth every other step, or a Western horse spends hours in a stall tied down, or a 300 lb person bounces on top of a little quarterhorse, etc. etc. etc. No argument from me!

However, I do object to people then insinuating all kinds of motives making an already gross picture seem even worse. Why? The saying is that "a picture is worth a thousand words"...

Before you state that what people are typing makes the pictures seem even worse, you had better take a look at them.


Nothing anyone can type could make what those pictures show worse.:(:mad:

And just to add, there is NO comparison to someone having intermittent contact while riding or being overweight while riding. (rolleyes)

The comparison to tying a horse's head down for hours and leaving it is pretty much right on the money! Good thought!

petitefilly
Sep. 23, 2007, 08:54 PM
Personally, I agree with Fantastic....I'm not buying the "Oops, I just accidentally cranked this pony's head into his butt and it just took me a few rounds to figure out why his head looked like that..I had to discuss it with my 15 year old student before I finally put two and two together as to why his head was in his butt, it just took us a couple walk laps to figure that one out. And that mean photographer took pictures and placed them on the web."

I guess if this is her defense, you have to ask yourself, would you want your horse/pony in training with someone who must be utterly clueless and takes them a few minutes to realize that they have lunging gear on incorrectly?

I do agree that at least this has sparked some outrage and she'll at least think twice about doing it out in public.



The reply from the photographer:
Auteur: GL
Date: 22-09-07 18:18

"Reaction
In short, my reaction to the Swedish magazine comes down to the following. The fact is that the photographer took these pictures in the first minute of the lunge with Power and Point"
-> WRONG. I was passing in front of the paddock when I have been very chocked by your lunging, had time to go and park my car far away, to take my camera and to walk back up to the paddock in order to take the pictures. You know very well the following...

"as the pony is either standing or walking and he is not sweating from the exercise. In the pictures, both myself and my student are looking at the pony and immediately saw that the lunge was not established correctly".
-> WRONG

"We allow the pony to walk a couple of seconds and change the lunge immediately so that it is in its normal position. After that, we have been able to lunge the pony in a good way, resulting in the pony’s looseness with a beautiful posture".
-> WRONG

"Unfortunately, the photographer was not interested in this and did not make pictures of that, which I regret".
-> INCREDIBLE to dare to say so !

"and this was a one-off incident from which my student has learned and which lasted no longer than half a minute".
-> WRONG

Clarity
I hope that, by way of this letter, I have clarified the situation and the background of the pictures and our way of training. To be absolutely clear: it serves no purpose to lunge in this particular way, it was a one-off incident which was immediately corrected
-> WRONG

The photographer in the presence of which you have been very very embarassed.
Guillaume Levesque.

lstevenson
Sep. 23, 2007, 09:08 PM
Seigi B, even *I* would not have set up a pony in this way, and if I did, even *I* would have fixed in 1 step.

The pictures don't lie - they are PROOF of what happened. It's not an opinion, it is a record. The resolution is pretty good so you can be assured that the photographer was close enough that Coby knew she was being photographed.

Pretty much, you either agree with her choice of longing technique or you don't. But please don't believe that someone the caliber of Coby made any kind of mistake here.

J.



Good post J-Lu.

I agree that there is no way she made a "mistake" tying this poor pony's mouth to it's chest. The mistake was that she got caught doing it.

EqTrainer
Sep. 24, 2007, 10:51 AM
"The photographer in the presence of which you have been very very embarassed.
Guillaume Levesque."

My helmet is off to Guillaume Levesque, for setting the record straight as to what he was witness to.

EqLuvr
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:02 AM
The reply from the photographer:
Auteur: GL
Date: 22-09-07 18:18

The photographer in the presence of which you have been very very embarassed.
Guillaume Levesque.


Way to go, Guillaume! I think he's a hero.

Mozart
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:24 AM
Good post J-Lu.

I agree that there is no way she made a "mistake" tying this poor pony's mouth to it's chest. The mistake was that she got caught doing it.

Yup, that was the only "mistake".

carolprudm
Sep. 24, 2007, 01:29 PM
I never looked at any pictures because I saw the number of postings on that thread and figured it was another "rollkur" debacle.

The only thing I object to is when people "elaborate" on something somebody else said without having any background on the situation save a few pictures and certainly without having been there.

But if you guys like this sort of thing then by all means.. have at it!
So you are defending pictures you haven't even looked at?

Sandra6500
Sep. 24, 2007, 01:38 PM
How many threads to do we need on this one incident...? The gal f'd up. Happens all the time. No worse than having some fat beginner trying to sit the trot and falling into the horses back with each stride. Just more frowned upon.

I'd never lunge a horse that crammed up but I don't know that it deserves this sort of response either.

GreekDressageQueen
Sep. 24, 2007, 01:42 PM
If I "accidentally" snapped my horse's side reins (or any horse I know) on that tight, he would probably start backing up, opening his mouth, or showing some signs of distress or discomfort. This pony - although in a grotesque position to us - does not seem distressed at all. His eye is soft, his mouth is closed, and he doesn't seem to be backing off from the reins. So, either this pony is used to this or he practices yoga in his spare time and can contort his neck in unusual positions.

We can say all we want about the picture, the pony, and even Coby's response, but the pony looks like he is used to this. Would anyone disagree? So, if this pony looks like this tight rein is a regular occurrence, then who made it that way? That fact seems more indicative of the truth than Coby's words IMO.

GreekDressageQueen
Sep. 24, 2007, 01:49 PM
No worse than having some fat beginner trying to sit the trot and falling into the horses back with each stride. Just more frowned upon.

:eek: Wow :eek: with a comment like that we will probably make you the center of our next attack on COTH. :no:

LarkspurCO
Sep. 24, 2007, 01:52 PM
Because she knows it is WRONG, whether she gets the results she wants or not!!

Of course, and it contradicts everything she says in her book. For example:



Not With the Hands

The rider should never force contact with the hands ... Everyone has pulled on the reins to get a horse's head and neck in the right position, but to no avail. It's always detrimental to the horse's schooling. ... Using the hands from front to back always immediately causes the hind legs to step under the horse less actively. This should be a red flag to every rider. ...
Contact and a particular neck shape should always be the outcome of the driving aids, a horse that moves in correct rhythm, that shows contentment, and that moves with a supple body.

The Simplicity of Dressage, p. 65

EqTrainer
Sep. 24, 2007, 01:54 PM
If I "accidentally" snapped my horse's side reins (or any horse I know) on that tight, he would probably start backing up, opening his mouth, or showing some signs of distress or discomfort. This pony - although in a grotesque position to us - does not seem distressed at all. His eye is soft, his mouth is closed, and he doesn't seem to be backing off from the reins. So, either this pony is used to this or he practices yoga in his spare time and can contort his neck in unusual positions.

We can say all we want about the picture, the pony, and even Coby's response, but the pony looks like he is used to this. Would anyone disagree? So, if this pony looks like this tight rein is a regular occurrence, then who made it that way? That fact seems more indicative of the truth than Coby's words IMO.

That was one of the first things I pointed out about the photo. Pony looks positively glazed over.. like "here we go again".

arena run
Sep. 24, 2007, 01:57 PM
If I "accidentally" snapped my horse's side reins (or any horse I know) on that tight, he would probably start backing up, opening his mouth, or showing some signs of distress or discomfort. This pony - although in a grotesque position to us - does not seem distressed at all. His eye is soft, his mouth is closed, and he doesn't seem to be backing off from the reins. So, either this pony is used to this or he practices yoga in his spare time and can contort his neck in unusual positions.

We can say all we want about the picture, the pony, and even Coby's response, but the pony looks like he is used to this. Would anyone disagree? So, if this pony looks like this tight rein is a regular occurrence, then who made it that way? That fact seems more indicative of the truth than Coby's words IMO.


Don't know about everyone else but... my vote is for the yoga. sylvia




*insert rolling eyes icon here*

STF
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:04 PM
I looked up close at the photos and at first it seemed that there was a loop in the top rein. But once I blew it up in photoshop, you can see it is tied in and the pony head was kept in. Even if wanted to stretch his neck, he could not have.
This makes me very sad.

STF
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by Sandra6500 http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2700923#post2700923)
No worse than having some fat beginner trying to sit the trot and falling into the horses back with each stride. Just more frowned upon.


Are you making fun of me again!!! ;)

ideayoda
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:06 PM
There is a big difference between an unknowing beginner making a mistake, and an lifelong trainer making an intentional one. The surcingle does not end up almost on the withers nor the mouth on the chest w/o stuggling to attach the reins, and to say its only in walk makes it a worse justification.

Sandra6500
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:23 PM
:eek: Wow :eek: with a comment like that we will probably make you the center of our next attack on COTH. :no:


Well I'll stand by that nonetheless. Poeple are so quick to jump on "public figures" when they screw up.

I'm not justifying the photos and I do think its crappy training at best and really unfair to the horse- and I even ride deep a lot of the time. I wouldn't dream of lunging a horse in that position.

That being said I can go to any barn in the area and watch people see-saw the crap out of their horses mouth, people flopping around in the saddle like dying fish, people losing their tempter, poorly cared for horses, horses with saddles that fit horribly, etc.

This horse has very clearly been worked like this for a while. He doesn't look to be in a huge amount of distress ugly as the photos may be. I see more distress in some of the horses that have a rank beginner on them who is trying to find their balance, falling into their back and jerking on their mouths in the process.

Maybe I'm jaded but it seems to be those very beginners that judge and scream the loudest when they see these photos. Two wrongs never make it right but it does seem hypocritical.

Sandra6500
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:24 PM
Are you making fun of me again!!! ;)


Nope- I loff you too much.

caffeinated
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:36 PM
His eye is soft, his mouth is closed, and he doesn't seem to be backing off from the reins. .

Actually, his mouth is open, at least as much as it can be with the noseband and flash...

Maybe a minor detail....

Sentry Chick
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:40 PM
I guess my question would be, why did she allow a student to lunge him in the first place if she didn't know what she was doing? I can say that yes, these few pictures that I seen are only a few steps, but geesh, as soon as you hook the horse up, you should be able to see that they are too tight. Why was she so far away before she noticed? Just from the pictures that I've seen here, I'm not seeing a look of concern on either one of their faces. I would have been like, YIKES, WTH are you doing????

I'm just starting to lunge Scout in side reins to strengthen his back and hind quarters. I lunge him without them for a few turns in both directions before hooking up the reins. I'm no rocket sciencentist but I know how tight or loose enough they should be.

arnika
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:41 PM
By Sandra6500
How many threads to do we need on this one incident...? The gal f'd up. Happens all the time. No worse than having some fat beginner trying to sit the trot and falling into the horses back with each stride. Just more frowned upon.

I'd never lunge a horse that crammed up but I don't know that it deserves this sort of response either.



by Sandra6500
Maybe I'm jaded but it seems to be those very beginners that judge and scream the loudest when they see these photos. Two wrongs never make it right but it does seem hypocritical.

You do sound jaded. Most of the posters on these two threads are not beginners and I'm surprised you classify them that way. Spreading the news that Coby van Baalen abuses the animals she is responsible for training is not screaming or hysterical. It is an attempt to prevent further "lunging mistakes" :rolleyes: from being applied to other horses being trained by her in a public situation. If this thread stops even one person from placing their horse in her poor standard of care then it willl have been worth it.

arnika
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:44 PM
He can't back off the reins, his head and jaw is already at his chest.:eek:

He actually is pulling and straining so hard on the reins that he moves the surcingle forward and up onto his withers. Look carefully and you can see it bowing forward as the pictures progress. This finally gives him a big TWO INCHES of neck movement off of his chest!

ToN Farm
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:45 PM
By Sandra6500
How many threads to do we need on this one incident...? The gal f'd up. Happens all the time. No worse than having some fat beginner trying to sit the trot and falling into the horses back with each stride. Just more frowned upon.
I'm brave enough to agree with those statements.

slc2
Sep. 24, 2007, 02:50 PM
to deprive someone of business by shrieking on the internet that they are abusive is an absurd goal.

i would be far happier if your goal was to understand training methods, to discuss with a little less personal vindictiveness WHY this is a popular training method these days, instead of just shrieking that dressage is going to hell and the judges are all blind and evil,

try discussing what one should personally do when training one's horse and encountering problems with suppleness in the horse - INSTEAD. some knowledgeable discussion about options, and not just trail riding, riding with a loose rein, taking a day to work cattle, or doing cavalletti, but something sensible, that actually works, and gets results at the highest level of sport.

what supples a horse MORE than the traditional methods? what can a rider do to bring the horse to a whole new level of throughness and suppleness? i don't really think anyone here really knows this, at least, i haven't heard anything remotely like this yet. i've heard a lot of platitudes, but nothing substantive.

you aren't going to ever change anything by going on a witch hunt, not when most people use this training method.

you need to discuss WHY this is done and what the ALTERNATIVES are, if you want to make any sort of head way in changing the methods people use to train their horses. you are NEVER going to get what you want by screaming individual's names and trying to deprive them of business by that tactic. that's absurd.

example, people used to throw their weight back and forth to get tempe changes. it was one of the ugliest things i've ever seen. the changes on the horses were made DESPITE the riders, not because of them.

it took seeing someone succcessfully use a very different method to change the practice. nowadays, people giggle when they see someone leaping from side to side to get tempe changes. it's regarded as coarse and poor training. 20 years ago it was not.

people's views, overall, as a community, changed.

to do that, you'll never win by going on a witch hunt. the people who trained flying changes without the flinging hips NEVER went on a witch hunt or pointed fingers.

they simply let people see how they trained and rode, and people flocked to their door.

hitchinmygetalong
Sep. 24, 2007, 03:52 PM
you aren't going to ever change anything by going on a witch hunt, not when most people use this training method.


They do? :confused: "Most people" do this? :confused: That's very frightening, as I would think that the "training method" illustrated by these photos could go seriously, seriously wrong in the hands of "most people".

Or am I misinterpreting your post?

Sannois
Sep. 24, 2007, 05:35 PM
They do? :confused: "Most people" do this? :confused: That's very frightening, as I would think that the "training method" illustrated by these photos could go seriously, seriously wrong in the hands of "most people".

Or am I misinterpreting your post?

where are all these people who are training in these methods, and lets not bring up Western Pleasure which is an abomination and should not even be in the same sentence as Dressage, So I must be interpreting the post too slc2.. Could you clarify and show us who all these people are, Cause I sure dont know any. And of course I am nobody but I can bet there are a handful of respectable trainers on here that dont wish to be grouped in with them. :confused::eek:

Sandra6500
Sep. 24, 2007, 05:37 PM
There is a big difference between an unknowing beginner making a mistake, and an lifelong trainer making an intentional one.

Not to the horse.

Mozart
Sep. 24, 2007, 05:46 PM
So because of the legions of long suffering school horses, it is OK for a professional to make the "mistake" of lunging a pony with his chin to his chest? That is a leap in logic.

I get what you are saying about horses not caring about "moral culpability" but the fact remains those with knowledge are always held to a higher standard than those that have none.

sunnyfarm
Sep. 24, 2007, 06:04 PM
20 years ago this would be considered animal cruelty and 20 years from now this will still be considered animal cruelty-it's not hysteria, it's not a witch hunt, it can't be explained away as new suppling techniques because the horses of today are bred differently-what a bunch of crap, this is very sad that people want to justify this. The word 'training' is also being used out of context. This is not training, what exactly is being understood by the horse and owner/rider?

Sannois
Sep. 24, 2007, 06:06 PM
20 years ago this would be considered animal cruelty and 20 years from now this will still be considered animal cruelty-it's not hysteria, it's not a witch hunt, it can't be explained away as new suppling techniques because the horses of today are bred differently-what a bunch of crap, this is very sad that people want to justify this. The word 'training' is also being used out of context. This is not training, what exactly is being understood by the horse and owner/rider?

that is being understood by the horse is Do this because I am forcing you to. Not training at all. :no:

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 24, 2007, 07:17 PM
where are all these people who are training in these methods, and lets not bring up Western Pleasure which is an abomination and should not even be in the same sentence as Dressage, So I must be interpreting the post too slc2.. Could you clarify and show us who all these people are, Cause I sure dont know any. And of course I am nobody but I can bet there are a handful of respectable trainers on here that dont wish to be grouped in with them. :confused::eek:

Hey I was just at an AQHQ show and I can tell you that I didnt even see one horse bitted on the lunge. I saw alot of noses out in front of the verticle because that is what is winning.

My dressage horse rides much more collected than my AQHA. I think what is encouraging this is the collection in dressage itself. Everyone lied to me from the begining making me think I could just massage my horses back into a collected pose.WRONG I have to take strong contact and deep bends to get what they call for. JMHO

Edited to say that I think that the ponys posture is extreme but Ive seen it alot on the lunge and Im jsut thankful that they arnt having to carry a rider too!

zinnniaz
Sep. 24, 2007, 07:29 PM
Everyone lied to me from the begining making me think I could just massage my horses back into a collected pose.WRONG I have to take strong contact and deep bends to get what they call for. JMHO!


Who the heck told you that?

shea'smom
Sep. 24, 2007, 07:48 PM
Those pictures are disgusting. That is cruelty, period.
That is no different than western people tieing the head around to the tail.
Indefensible.

Touchstone Farm
Sep. 24, 2007, 09:20 PM
This is terrible. My first thought was, how is this pony even able to breathe? It made me sad and sick to look at the photos. IMO, you don't have to have a horse take one step forward to realize this is wrong -- you can see that as you hook up the side reins. And then for Coby to excuse it by saying we saw and then corrected it, is weak -- let alone "blame" it on the student. My trainers wouldn't let me have my horse take one single step if they saw me hook up a horse like that. In fact, they'd probably throw me out of the arena and never teach me again!

For the posters to excuse this behavior by saying how overweight people or beginners hurt the horses too is hardly worth responding to. Horses are very forgiving creatures, but at least beginners or unbalanced people are trying to learn and aren't doing it on purpose. Coby is a professional who is doing it on purpose. Big, sad difference.

slc2
Sep. 24, 2007, 09:25 PM
"20 years ago this would be considered animal cruelty and 20 years from now this will still be considered animal cruelty"

not in any court in america, not 20 yrs ago, not now. there is lots of awful stuff that goes on that would never be considered 'animal cruelty' in the courts of america. but we can't decide how to train our horses based on whether the method is prosecutable or not.

Ghazzu
Sep. 24, 2007, 09:35 PM
"20 years ago this would be considered animal cruelty and 20 years from now this will still be considered animal cruelty"

not in any court in america, not 20 yrs ago, not now. there is lots of awful stuff that goes on that would never be considered 'animal cruelty' in the courts of america. but we can't decide how to train our horses based on whether the method is prosecutable or not.

So because the courts are ignorant, those who know better shouldn't recognize it as abuse?

It is.
That's a real no brainer.

slc2
Sep. 24, 2007, 10:56 PM
if yu had read what i said....i said....we can't condone a method just because someone has not been prosecuted for using it.

Ghazzu
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:07 PM
if yu had read what i said....i said....we can't condone a method just because someone has not been prosecuted for using it.

Honey, you've been leaping from one side of the fence to the other so energetically on this subject I'm exhausted just watching it.

Ever consider steeplechasing?

coriander
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:18 PM
Honey, you've been leaping from one side of the fence to the other so energetically on this subject I'm exhausted just watching it.

Ever consider steeplechasing?

:lol: Thanks for the soda down my shirt.

Dressage4Fun
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:28 PM
I just got the soda OFF my monitor!!! LOL!! and now it is coming out my NOSE TOO!! TYVM!! :)

J-Lu
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:57 PM
Said SLC: to deprive someone of business by shrieking on the internet that they are abusive is an absurd goal.

**** "shrieking on the internet?" "an absurd goal"? How condescending, slc.

i would be far happier if your goal was to understand training methods, to discuss with a little less personal vindictiveness WHY this is a popular training method these days, instead of just shrieking that dressage is going to hell and the judges are all blind and evil,

*** the goal is not for you to be happy, it is for people to discuss. They are discussing. It's a bulletin board. I don't see personal vindictiveness, I don't see shrieking, I don't see where people said judges are blind and evil. I do see YOU being pretty dramatic with this post, though.

try discussing what one should personally do when training one's horse and encountering problems with suppleness in the horse - INSTEAD. some knowledgeable discussion about options, and not just trail riding, riding with a loose rein, taking a day to work cattle, or doing cavalletti, but something sensible, that actually works, and gets results at the highest level of sport.

*** if you don't think sensible information that actually works regarding suppling is ever exchanged here, you might want to consider turning your computer off for a while. And/or contemplate your training methods.

what supples a horse MORE than the traditional methods? what can a rider do to bring the horse to a whole new level of throughness and suppleness? i don't really think anyone here really knows this, at least, i haven't heard anything remotely like this yet. i've heard a lot of platitudes, but nothing substantive.

*** If someone is having problems bringing a horse to a whole new level of suppleness and they feel the need to bring a horse to a whole new level of suppleness, they need a different trainer or different expectations for their horse IMO. These are things that can't be solved on a bulletin board, slc. Most people I know, including me, are not interested in "experimental dressage". Most people I know feel that largely "Traditional methods" (a.k.a platitudes?) and time successfully develop a dressage horse. I'm glad that I don't see "experimental dressage" techniques on this board. Then you'd see shrieking! :D

you aren't going to ever change anything by going on a witch hunt, not when most people use this training method.

**** witch hunt? Where? I must have missed that. Most people use this method? Who? I've never seen *this* before.

you need to discuss WHY this is done and what the ALTERNATIVES are, if you want to make any sort of head way in changing the methods people use to train their horses. you are NEVER going to get what you want by screaming individual's names and trying to deprive them of business by that tactic. that's absurd.

*** I think people are discussing WHY this is done and any thread on suppling is all about alternative approaches. Screaming individual names? SHE HAD HER PICTURE TAKEN at a show for god's sakes and she's a 'recognizable' internationally elite professional! A teacher and obviously - a role model. Helloooooo, why do you think she printed a release back pedaling on this longing technique if not for the public pressure in response to people talking about this very picture. You crack me up.

example, people used to throw their weight back and forth to get tempe changes. it was one of the ugliest things i've ever seen. the changes on the horses were made DESPITE the riders, not because of them.

*** I don't see how this story relates at all? And changes were not universally trained this way 20 years ago. Some may have resorted to it with heavy horses or horses unreliable in the tempis, but swinging hips cause swinging haunches and this has always been penalized in changes and tempis.

it took seeing someone succcessfully use a very different method to change the practice. nowadays, people giggle when they see someone leaping from side to side to get tempe changes. it's regarded as coarse and poor training. 20 years ago it was not.

people's views, overall, as a community, changed.

to do that, you'll never win by going on a witch hunt. the people who trained flying changes without the flinging hips NEVER went on a witch hunt or pointed fingers.
they simply let people see how they trained and rode, and people flocked to their door.

**** So, 20 years ago or even 50 years ago, dressage riders/trainers NEVER pointed fingers at people using controversial training approaches? Or NEVER pointed fingers at training methods that were different than their own, for that matter? :lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol: We're just as human today as we were 20 years ago!

SillyHorse
Sep. 25, 2007, 08:23 AM
J-Lu, you are my hero! :cool: This board does not belong to one person, and for any one person to say she would be happier if this happened this way or that happened that way, well that's what is absurd.

The pictures posted in this thread speak for themselves. I doubt that anyone really defends what they show - heck, even Coby has said it was a "mistake."

ASB Stars
Sep. 25, 2007, 08:34 AM
Someone else set the **ORACLE** down... :yes: :lol: :yes:

Thank you! Thank you! :winkgrin:

Lgd1
Sep. 25, 2007, 08:48 AM
Abuse etc aside (and I agree this is a very ugly set of pics) if this was done at the showground then it is close to or actually breaking FEI rules which allow a single side rein to be used for lunging.

Strictly it is a single side rein but it is actually fitted like a vienna rein which is not legal lunging tackle under FEI rules.

Will be interesting to see if the FEI take any action

egontoast
Sep. 25, 2007, 09:43 AM
you aren't going to ever change anything by going on a witch hunt, not when most people use this training method.



Really. MOST people lunge like this. And you know this how?


Bullshit.

I tend to give more credence to people who have actually trained and ridden for a significant time in BNT stables (such as Spiritpaws who trained at Anky and Sjef's barn for a year- one example) than to people like slc who just repeat what they have heard somewhere.

How often have you personally viewed horses being lunged this way slc? Are you basing your expertise on personal experience or just mouthing the usual internet myths about BNTs?

Slc went and tried a couple of horses in Holland and is now the expert on international training methods.

r i i i i ight.

SillyHorse
Sep. 25, 2007, 11:30 AM
You mean she's not? She's gonna be real surprised.

dutchmike
Sep. 25, 2007, 12:24 PM
All the nasty shots in this post make it a very enjoyable topic to read:lol:

slc2
Sep. 25, 2007, 01:06 PM
will keep in mind that you like it that much dutch mike :D, but will assume it's only when someone else's ox is getting gored, and not yours. i have a feeling when you're the one being picked on you won't find it quite so amusing.

i didn't mean 'everyone uses this method' = longeing head on chest to this extreme position, i meant the rollkur method is very widespread, and you won't get rid of it by going on a witch hunt on the internet, but by showing people a BETTER method, and gave examples of that happening in the past.

and despite all the nasty responses, i still feel that way - strongly.

the discussion has gone from 'this is a horrible picture' to a general discussion of rollkur, and i was talking about rollkur in general. i think many people feel exactly the same about rollkur as they do about this type of longeing, and i think for many people, both are abusive, both are ugly, both are potentially harmful.

i don't feel everyone who uses rollkur longes this way, or even does rollkur to the same degree, but i STILL don't feel internet complaints will make rollkur go away.

i think if you really want to see this go away you need to propose some alternative. no one has. the exhortations to 'be classical instead' have not worked, and the method has continued to spread and become more and more common. yes, there are still people who don't train this way. but it is still getting more and more common.

after 20 years, internet complaints haven't yet popularized an alternative method, or made the fei ban it in warmups, or the national humane agencies fine people for using it (as some countries fine people for poling jumpers, in their home barns, not at shows, so it's not impossible to have an 'anti rollkur law' in some countries in future if the right things happen).

to me, that is no progress. zero. zilch. 'broadening people's minds' with various screetchy websites hasn't exactly been a whirlwind success. some people are very disturbed by the method, but clearly - very clearly, what people are doing now in response is NOT WORKING.

i think that if people want it banned, they need to take a different approach. not the same approach, which in 20 yrs, has accomplished absolutely nothing.

dutchmike
Sep. 25, 2007, 02:06 PM
will keep in mind that you like it that much dutch mike , but will assume it's only when someone else's ox is getting gored, and not yours. i have a feeling when you're the one being picked on you won't find it quite so amusing.

Oh come on SLC you love the attention, otherwise how can you explain how you jump from one opinion to another every 5 seconds. If most people see a white wall you say it is black and if they say you are right it is black you say it is white. As to if people try to rattle my cage I can only say that they can try but it is hard to get me mad on a bb. The day I have to take a bb serious I have to start to worry ;)

Sannois
Sep. 25, 2007, 02:33 PM
that I am now totally confused and have no idea where you stand on the issue. I dont know where the shreaky posts are. I also dont see things in black and white only. I do know after having been in horses for 40 years I think I can see a method that goes against all the principles of Dressage training. For me!! I merely think its sad as I have stated before that its more about getting it done now and getting the ribbons or the money for sales or a stud fee. JMHO. I have my values and ethics when it comes to horses and training and teaching. And I know some well respected trainers and judges and none of them condone Rollkur or those extreme measures of lunging. I think from reading all these posts most people also feel the same. I dont think it should be outlawed, then many methods would have to be outlawed. I think only a handful of folks said as much. But I think like you in that it is a method that is here to stay as it is proving successful among the elite riders and trainers.

stryder
Sep. 25, 2007, 03:52 PM
I don't know any of you, and I am not confused by SLC's posts. She said she doesn't like rollkur, would not want a horse trained that way. Doesn't do it, herself.

Yet she said that despite her personal feelings on the issue, and the general opposition as posted on this bb and others, that things won't change because a ban is unenforceable. It's further complicated because some trainers employing rollkur are winning.

People want to get rid of rollkur? choose a different way, because talking among ourselves on a bb has not worked.

LarkspurCO
Sep. 25, 2007, 03:58 PM
after 20 years, internet complaints haven't yet popularized an alternative method

20 years? If you were chatting about Rollkur 20 years ago on the Internet, you were way ahead of Tim Berners-Lee. The Web didn't expand beyond academia until the mid-1990s, and didn't gain wide popularity until even later, and forums like this have only been going since 2000, this debate has hardly had time to permeate the collective Internet "consciousness."


i think that if people want it banned, they need to take a different approach. not the same approach, which in 20 yrs, has accomplished absolutely nothing.

(Again, where do you get this "20 years" thing? )

You have no way of quantifying whether anything has been accomplished as a direct or indirect result of Internet-based discussions. Obviously, they are having some impact. Otherwise, Ms. Van Balen would not have been called to the carpet in the first place.

Raising awareness is a HUGE first step toward effecting change in organizations such as FEI, which, as I understand it, does not move quickly.

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 25, 2007, 05:41 PM
If this was considered abuse then I wouldnt have to watch it every few weekends at hunter/jumper, Arabian, Saddlebred, NSH, Pleasure, and dressage shows right??

SillyHorse
Sep. 26, 2007, 09:05 AM
So, you consider putting sidereins on a horse so tight that its mouth is on its chest, and then longing it like this to be a humane training method, not at all abusive. Good luck to you.

slc2
Sep. 26, 2007, 09:58 AM
you sure do have a way of twisting people's words, silly horse.

and no, i do not love the attention. you have NO IDEA how little i love 'the attention'. and if you think i'm 'mad' or angry, think again. i am not at all angry. but in fact, you have no idea what i feel, from reading a bulletin board posting. you think you know people from what they post about horses on a bulletin board? oh please.

no one has said that on this thread. no one has even suggested that this extreme longeing is a great thing to do.

re age of the internet. i was on the internet 20 yrs ago, but not everyone else was, not like today. but even then we had .rec.dressage.competition, and there were discussions there about rollkur, or as it was called then just riding very deep or curled up.

no, large masses of people were not complaining about rollkur 20 years ago on the internet, but also, large numbers of people weren't interested in dressage back then, either. there are many more people involved these days.

but even then, they were complaining in letters, editorials, magazine articles and at horse shows. the point is this, NOT how old the internet is, or how many people used it rather than some other forum, that is extremely tangential, but this: they were complaining then, and they are complaining now, and nothing has changed.

the place of the discussion has shifted more to the internet, but the discussions were taking place 20 yrs ago. in 1988 when uphoff warmed up and schooled rembrandt this way, there were vehement, angry, shocked and furious responses.

my point is this: all that sound and fury has changed exactly - NOTHING.

stryder2 i think you caught everything i was saying except this, but even here you have a very good point:

that things won't change because a ban is unenforceable

nnnnn....not exactly. a ban IS enforceable in theory, at least. for example, some countries do fine people, heavily, for poling horses at home, away from shows. this started quite a while ago, though i don't recall the exact date, Paul Sschocke...sch...sh...oh hell, Paul S. was fined up in five figures, for poling AT HOME. a video camera was installed in the ceiling of his riding arena, he was filmed doing it and he was fined, 25,000 dollars, or 35,000 or something like that. for rapping young horses with a lightweight bamboo pole as they jumped, if i recall right. not a metal pole. not a tack pole. not a hunk of rebar. no bloody legs, no limping horses, no injured horses - fined. it is against the law.

a 'ban' is possible. i suppose it could be worded that the horse's chin could not remain within 1" of his chest for more than 30 seconds 10 times in a day, but yes, it WOULD be hard to define, and it would be even harder to reinforce fairly. you are NOT likely to get a law that states that no horse can ever fall behind the vertical or the owner will be prosecuted. and as long as research doesn't show elevated cortisol levels for horses in rollkur, it may be VERY difficult to get any legislator interested in proposing such a law.

people in the government may be more interested in passing stronger legislation to get starving, wounded horses away from owners, and to more heavily control the shipment and slaughter of horses, to control 'Soring' in Tennesse walkers, and to penalize people who kill horses for insurance, and to help to fund retirement schemes for race horses, and to deal with the wild horses. I think if you told a lawmaker that you want a law to ban people from bending horse's necks too much, they would give you a stern lecture about horses down, dying in backyard pens and slaughter yards, and say that's their first priority. even more sadly, they may tell you horse related legislation isn't a priority at all, that their state government is going bankrupt, people have no jobs, and house mortgages are being forclosed, and that they have to work on that first.

it would be mostly by people reporting it, and that leaves one open to the last person who didn't like a horse you sold them, would report you for rollkur. it would indeed be a very difficult law and it opens up the door to PETA getting all riding banned through extensions of the law. i feel it's best if the riding community, rather than the law, finds a way to deal with this. and i think the only really effective way is to offer something better.

the charge has been made that 'brilliance' of an undesirable, exaggerated kind is caused by rollkur. i don't feel the two are directly connected. there are 'exaggerated' types of horses that are winning. but there are also horses that are not having 'exaggerated' movement that are winning. and i don't feel there is any link between this and rollkur. it is more a type of horse and a temperament of horse.

STF
Sep. 26, 2007, 10:10 AM
Oh come on SLC you love the attention, otherwise how can you explain how you jump from one opinion to another every 5 seconds. If most people see a white wall you say it is black and if they say you are right it is black you say it is white. As to if people try to rattle my cage I can only say that they can try but it is hard to get me mad on a bb. The day I have to take a bb serious I have to start to worry ;)


Stop fighting with SLC!! That is my job!:cool:

LarkspurCO
Sep. 26, 2007, 03:34 PM
SLC, no the point wasn't how long the Internet or Web have been around, but you were the one who made the claim that this has been a widespread debate for 20 years, when clearly it has not. I'm sure your were right in there on the obscure non-graphical Usenet groups, probably using the same old computer with the broken shift key (just razzing your there -- couldn't resist).

Yes, dressage is much more popular now. That along with the global reach of the World Wide Web has and will continue make a difference, if not in the FEI then in the consciousness of the majority of riders who will never ride at that level.

Personally, I'm more concerned about the average trainer who clinics with some of these top riders (e.g., Ula) and applies these methods herself, then brings them into teaching low-level riders like me who may not know any better. I'm speaking from personal experience here.

You don't believe anything has changed as a result of the expanding awareness. Okay, fine. But the evidence suggests otherwise. I am a walking example.

dutchmike
Sep. 26, 2007, 03:50 PM
Stop fighting with SLC!! That is my job!:cool:

She needs to talk to Dr Phil:D

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:03 PM
I agree with SLC.


In my own opinion why not be frank about this huh? Are some of us that sheltered?

We see this stuff all over the levels from unknown trainers to known ones!

Maybe you only see this when you are actually working for the trainers? I have seen it tons. Maybe not as extreme but definately close.

An Amatures horse being bitted down to keep him in line for a show shocking? NO

dutchmike
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:06 PM
maybe you are working with the wrong trainers ;)

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:10 PM
My trainer is a Gem. Working for the others taught me to find one like her!!

Ghazzu
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:12 PM
and no, i do not love the attention. you have NO IDEA how little i love 'the attention'. and if you think i'm 'mad' or angry, think again. i am not at all angry. .

Ah, then--you don't deny you're "mad", I see. :D

dutchmike
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:12 PM
My trainer is a Gem. Working for the others taught me to find one like her!!

My point exactly from all trainers I learned something. Either what to do or what to never do. It is how we learn and create our own style. The ones you don't like you never ever go back to

dutchmike
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:14 PM
Ah, then--you don't deny you're "mad", I see. :D

This post almost made me fall from my chair :lol:

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:15 PM
My point however is that the mass is using "deep" and it is a shortcut that unfortunately is seeing results. An ammy horse bitted to be a good boy for his lil rider not far from the norm. ALL im sayin!

dutchmike
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:22 PM
My point however is that the mass is using "deep" and it is a shortcut that unfortunately is seeing results. An ammy horse bitted to be a good boy for his lil rider not far from the norm. ALL im sayin!

As long as it is legal anybody can ride the way they feel fit. Some like to have the horse to do most of the work others prefer to work harder then the horse. Some like to get in sync with their horse others like to train horses by brute force and impose their will. Whatever works for the individual. I know what I like and don't like but I am not a dictator so don't force my view onto anybody. It is each individual to decide what they like.

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:31 PM
Agreed DM

Ghazzu
Sep. 26, 2007, 09:54 PM
no one has said that on this thread. no one has even suggested that this extreme longeing is a great thing to do.

re age of the internet. i was on the internet 20 yrs ago, but not everyone else was, not like today. but even then we had .rec.dressage.competition, and there were discussions there about rollkur, or as it was called then just riding very deep or curled up.

.

It strikes me as a little odd that not one of the folks I know who are horsemen who were around ARPANET even before usenet and the Great Renaming, have ever heard of "rec.dressage.competition".
Must have been a *severely* poorly propagated group, that.

slc2
Sep. 26, 2007, 11:02 PM
sounds like you feel that it must not have existed. that's ok. i don't recall the exact names of the groups but there were dressage groups on arpa before the great renaming.

the point i was making was that no matter how, people have been complaining about rollkur for a very long time. my other point was that that hasn't made any difference.

Pony Fixer
Sep. 26, 2007, 11:12 PM
My point however is that the mass is using "deep" and it is a shortcut that unfortunately is seeing results.

BTW, riding "deep" is not the same thing as rollkur.

~Freedom~
Sep. 27, 2007, 12:22 AM
re age of the internet. i was on the internet 20 yrs ago, but not everyone else was, not like today.


1987...was the net around then?

LarkspurCO
Sep. 27, 2007, 01:07 AM
1987...was the net around then?

Yes, but only people with hairy palms used it.

Gaia
Sep. 27, 2007, 04:05 AM
It has made a huge difference. Now a lot more people are informed. News travels fast, photos and videos can tell stories that must be believed where the statements from lowly grooms or dispiccably squemish amatuers can not.

Remember - people do things to horses - they actually DO THINGS!! - People have been convicted of breaking horsebones to get insurance money etc...

But then - people kill others humans too.

What gets me is that some people are believed to be saints - when they have the means, the motive AND the opportunity. You just differ in what should be called a victim. AND the films of warm-ups is evidence to me AND to thousands of others around the globe. The FEI has not decided yet, but the pressure will build. Remember the cell phones - everybody has one today....and Youtube is waiting....

/Gaia


sounds like you feel that it must not have existed. that's ok. i don't recall the exact names of the groups but there were dressage groups on arpa before the great renaming.

the point i was making was that no matter how, people have been complaining about rollkur for a very long time. my other point was that that hasn't made any difference.

slc2
Sep. 27, 2007, 07:07 AM
yes prev poster the internet has in some ways allowed for faster communication, but there were telephones and letters before that, and people connected up amazingly quickly without it. i think back then people relied more on magazines and gossip to hear about the international dressage scene, as if the internet isn't full of gossip too, LOL. but it's hardly true that 20 yrs ago, people couldn't communicate because there was less internet and no cell phones. things still got around. perhaps we used signal fires, or wampum.

and yes, 20 yrs ago, in 1987, 88, when uphoff was riding her horse deep, far LESS deep and far LESS of an extreme position than the riders use today, people were complaining about it - vigorously. on the internet (just because it was not as widespread then doesn't mean people didn't use it), in magazine editorials. i can remember reading quite a few letters to the editor in magazines even then complaining about it.

but my own feeling is that most of the time , it functions hysterically, lots of noise and nothing changing, much more riding waves than creating them, and more like a highschool girl's clique than an effective means of change. doesn't anyone notice that aside from all the vehemence and anger of these complaints, that the method is still out there. where is the demonstrated effectivity of that?

it is clearly not enough to rattle pans and cry out against something. people actually have to DO something, instead of just complain. that's what is missing. any sort of action. the internet, as far as i can see, is a place for people to complain rather than act.

Gaia
Sep. 27, 2007, 07:30 AM
Yes slc2, the time for doing is here.

So some brave people made a film of Christine W and exposed her methods. etc etc etc. Some of us who have the possibility to teach others tell them how to ride. We hope that they will stay true and not cut corners.
It is hard, in a small sport, where people know that you train with XX or YY.

The judges are being told not to give 6 if the horse is BTV ... hard that - but beginning to happen. Saw the percentages on a class lately. Three over 60% - the victor 69, the rest - well I think that that message will hit home. But noone said it was going to be simple!!! I read Seegers critique of Baucher... Holy burning HELL! That guy would have been kicked out of every BB today!/Gaia


yes prev poster the internet has in some ways allowed for faster communication, but there were telephones and letters before that, and people connected up amazingly quickly without it. i think back then people relied more on magazines and gossip to hear about the international dressage scene, as if the internet isn't full of gossip too, LOL. but it's hardly true that 20 yrs ago, people couldn't communicate because there was less internet and no cell phones. things still got around. perhaps we used signal fires, or wampum.

and yes, 20 yrs ago, in 1987, 88, when uphoff was riding her horse deep, far LESS deep and far LESS of an extreme position than the riders use today, people were complaining about it - vigorously. on the internet (just because it was not as widespread then doesn't mean people didn't use it), in magazine editorials. i can remember reading quite a few letters to the editor in magazines even then complaining about it.

but my own feeling is that most of the time , it functions hysterically, lots of noise and nothing changing, much more riding waves than creating them, and more like a highschool girl's clique than an effective means of change. doesn't anyone notice that aside from all the vehemence and anger of these complaints, that the method is still out there. where is the demonstrated effectivity of that?

it is clearly not enough to rattle pans and cry out against something. people actually have to DO something, instead of just complain. that's what is missing. any sort of action. the internet, as far as i can see, is a place for people to complain rather than act.

slc2
Sep. 27, 2007, 08:38 AM
oh, so you ("we") were personally involved in getting christine w exposed? you were working for her, and videotaped her beating horses? the people who videotaped her were her employees. so you were an employee of christine w?

no? so what actions has your bravery led you to complete?

all this strutting and self righteous finger pointing is totally ineffective. it makes you all feel superior, but it does nothing else.

you're so serious? you want so badly to control how people train horses?

set up an alternative organization, world wide, that conducts dressage competitions, and removes anyone from the show grounds seen hyperflexing their horse. drum up the funds to operate it, and set up shows of your own. publish a 'rollkur blacklist' and refuse to let anyone join or compete unless they boycott those people. record who people's trainers are. have 'delegates' that go around to different stables and secretly videotape who is training with who. they can pretend to be students interested in getting training or lessons.

if they use any of the banned trainers, they're out. include any trainer videotaped at home doing it.

have a mass boycott, in which all the most highly respected, prominent riders of the world refuse to compete in a single dressage competition unless the fei bans rollkur. raise money to replace what they would have won, breeder's benefits, competition prizes, and devise a point-dollar system for reimbursing people for points they don't get for international standings and rankings they miss, and reimburse them for the international events they would thereby not be qualified to enter. calculate how much the loss of those competitions would affect their lifelong career and standing, and arrive at a dollar amount to reimburse them for lifelong earnings they would miss. you can calculate whether they would have won the olympics or not, and just take it from there.

get involved in the fei committees. insist at every meeting that rollkur must be banned or dressage will be destroyed. refuse to attend any fei events as spectators. refuse to attend show jumping, eventing, driving, AND dressage until it is resolved.

pressure. money.

have a recognized show through your riding club. throw everyone out of the show that hyperflexes their horse. give people zero scores if they get their horses behind the vertical. train your own 'hyperflexion td's' and have them decide who gets to leave the show grounds. highly publicize it.

set up seminars for judges and tell them they will be boycotted if they don't toe the line, and that if they aren't part of the solution, they're part of the problem. get a little tough with them. get them off by themselves, with just your people surrounding them. let them know they won't be making a living unless they cooperate with you. perhaps people would respond better if you took a few judges and trainers, and tied their heads to their chests, and paraded them around publicly for hours, kind of like the feudal chinese putting stocks on criminals in public. be sure to get alot of publicity.

and of course, it wouldn't be entirely out of the question to oh, say, mess up a couple horses and display them publicly as the result of trainer X, who you suspect but couldn't get a videotape of. it would be worth it, sacrifice a few for the betterment of all. take a page from Peta! they were convicted for abusing animals for the purpose of taking photos of them for their brochures - but i'm sure with the control of the situaition you'd have, you could avoid that.

that wouldn't be hard, not after hanging around christine w as an employee, and videotaping her all that time, instead of stepping in and stopping it right then and there. sure, it sounds cold, but heck! it's really not any different.

aside from that, you're trying to mix apples and oranges. christine w's issue was not that she was bending the horse's necks too much, but that she was wounding them, whipping them, beating them, losing her temper and acting like an idiot, both in the saddle and out of it, injuring their eyes and ears and faces.

that is VERY different from getting someone in trouble solely for bending a horse's neck. you're making it sound like the publicity against christine w was a triumph for anti-rollkurists.

it most definitely was not.

this was plain old garden variety abuse - wounding, beating, and could have been done by anyone, rollkur-user or not.

you can argue all you want that rollkur is abusive, but that is not the point - you cannot argue that christine w got in trouble solely for hyperflexing the horse's necks. that would be blatantly false.

Gaia
Sep. 27, 2007, 09:16 AM
A lot of your proposals are worth trying....I´ll save a copy.

Anyway - breaking horse´s bones is no rollkur - still not very nice to do. The point I tried to make is that people really do very strange things for strange reasons. The regulations of the FEI is there to stop abuse, you should not have to start an abusefree new organisation. But as all big companies - they are hard to turn. All good things - albeit small will push the FEI to really start looking and acting.

hitchinmygetalong
Sep. 27, 2007, 10:45 AM
oh, so you ("we") were personally involved in getting christine w exposed? you were working for her, and videotaped her beating horses? the people who videotaped her were her employees. so you were an employee of christine w?

no? so what actions has your bravery led you to complete?

all this strutting and self righteous finger pointing is totally ineffective. it makes you all feel superior, but it does nothing else.

you're so serious? you want so badly to control how people train horses?


Who is the "you" you are referring to in this post? Was it in reply to this post by Gaia?
So some brave people made a film of Christine W and exposed her methods. etc etc etc. Some of us who have the possibility to teach others tell them how to ride. We hope that they will stay true and not cut corners.
If so, how on earth can you (meaning SLC) come to the conclusion that Gaia was referring to herself as the person who exposed Christine W? She said "some brave people", not "I" or "we".

cinder88
Sep. 27, 2007, 02:00 PM
So, SLC...unless a person can make a world-wide, sweeping change, they should just "Shut tfu"? Did I understand your diatribe to mean that?

As to the internet having NO influence on what is done....Does anyone REALLY think that the FEI would have done a study on Rolkur if there hadn't been a gazillion "little people" up in arms about it on the internet and other places?

As to those picture of PandP...call it whatever you want. It's still abuse whether it has a fancy name or it doesn't.

Cinder

Red Barn
Sep. 27, 2007, 02:33 PM
Well said, Cinder. Thanks!

Do you know whether there are as yet any efforts being made to organize puplic sentiment on this question in a concrete way? Via local branches of the USDF, say?

I live in the middle of noplace, and feel completely out of the loop these days, but would be very interested to find out about such efforts, if they exist.

slc2
Sep. 28, 2007, 11:43 AM
no, i don''t think the fei did a study because of a 'thousands of little people' on the internet.

i think they did a study after reviewing their legal position with their lawyers. and it only takes ONE 'little person' ... well, one little person with a lawyer, to make them do that.

any business, any business at all, would do the same.

class
Sep. 28, 2007, 11:59 AM
really? so if i hired a lawyer and felt that double bridles were cruel, then the fei would spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours looking into it?

slc2
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:08 PM
i think you misunderstood me. i'm suggesting the person with the lawyer works for the fei, not someone else.

class
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:17 PM
i think i am misunderstanding you now because that doesn't make any sense. so what prompted the person with the fei with the lawyer to suddenly concern themselves with rollkur?

Anselcat
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:19 PM
i think you misunderstood me. i'm suggesting the person with the lawyer works for the fei, not someone else.

Oh-ho, nicely flipped. I was just about to ask on what grounds one person with a lawyer could sue the FEI to force them to do a study on Rollkur.

But I'm still not following.... why would a lawyer for the FEI say to do a study on Rollkur? To cover their butts in case someone sued the FEI? Sued on what grounds? You've already said that they aren't affected by the opinion of the little people....so why would the FEI do the study?

Edited to add: Class beat me to it!

FancyFree
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:25 PM
I'm not following either and I've read it three times!

Excederin headache tablet anyone?

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:27 PM
They are probably investigating it because the attorneys with FEI are aware of the potential this has to get out of hand (petty filings). After all several vets are saying that this could be considered abuse. Im sure some of the questions the attorney is asking are the same as ours. Like "Is the FEI encouraging it" and "What responsibility does the FEI have to discourage it" and so on.


Edited to say I dont think our talk on the internet has anything to do with it.

claire
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:52 PM
They are probably investigating it because the attorneys with FEI are aware of the potential this has to get out of hand (petty filings). After all several vets are saying that this could be considered abuse. Im sure some of the questions the attorney is asking are the same as ours. Like "Is the FEI encouraging it" and "What responsibility does the FEI have to discourage it" and so on.
Edited to say I dont think our talk on the internet has anything to do with it.

Then why is the FEI and NDF "investigating" the Coby van Baalen incident?
CvB issued her statement. :rolleyes:

Obviously "enough" people have objected on various international Internet forums, that the FEI/NDF feels the need for additional PR efforts. ;)

slc2
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:58 PM
but that's two different things. one is the general issue of rollkur, which is what i was referring to, the other is this recent Cobygate.

Cobygate is getting looked into by the fei. the direct issue is equipment allowed in warmup; there might be other issues that they could investigate, such as if the equipment is legal, was it used inappropriately. and you'll notice it doesn't say WHICH issue it's investigating, whether illegal equipment was used, or legal equipment used inappropriately.

i am saying basically what NOMI is saying, that the fei - or any organization or business that states in their charter that the horse welfare is part of their function, has to investigate incidents with possible repercussions on horse welfare.

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:09 PM
Then why is the FEI and NDF "investigating" the Coby van Baalen incident?
CvB issued her statement. :rolleyes:

Obviously "enough" people have objected on various international Internet forums, that the FEI/NDF feels the need for additional PR efforts. ;)

Ok I was talking about FEI investigating the Rollkur.

Coby is being investigated and I can promise you only on whether or not she was using Illegal equipment.

In a perfect world she would be told to cease and desist anything that could be named as abuse.

In a perfect perfect world it wouldnt just be to cover FEIs Booty.

claire
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:13 PM
I don't know. :confused:

The title of the original post and the discussion has been about CvB, and how the Internet has not made any difference. (As opposed to 20 years ago)

Frankly, I think the Internet/Youtube/Instant access to information has made a HUGE difference.

Alot of "little nobody photographers" and an "outraged John Q public" can make BNTs/BNRs/Governing Bodies feel the heat to gear up that PR machine pretty quickly. :winkgrin:

claire
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:17 PM
Coby is being investigated and I can promise you only on whether or not she was using Illegal equipment.


Really. Where did you read this? Could you please post a link?

Not being snarky, just curious of how you know this. :confused:

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:17 PM
Personally I worry more about the little nobodys that are trying to make the big somebodys feel the heat.

hitchinmygetalong
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:21 PM
Personally I worry more about the little nobodys that are trying to make the big somebodys feel the heat.

Could you please define "the little nobodys"?

And what is the nature of the worry? Are you worried that the little nobodys are going to expose some ugly things happening behind the scenes? I don't understand. :confused:

SillyHorse
Sep. 28, 2007, 02:15 PM
Maybe NOMIOMI is implying that there will be hits put out on all of us "little nobodies." Oooooh, the intrigue!

Maybe she should remember that there are plenty of people on this board (and others) who are definitely NOT nobodies.

Sithly
Sep. 28, 2007, 02:16 PM
Personally I worry more about the little nobodys that are trying to make the big somebodys feel the heat.

This is just plain ridiculous. Are you suggesting that the "big somebodys [sic]" are somehow less responsible for their behavior than everyone else on this planet?

Dalfan
Sep. 28, 2007, 02:23 PM
Personally I worry more about the little nobodys that are trying to make the big somebodys feel the heat.

It is the "little nobody's" (ie, collective you and I) who can force the change back to the "classical" approach, which RK is not. If people stop patronizing the BNT/BNR that engage in RK.

And also if the FEI would just enforce their own guidelines and directives, that would help as well.

belambi
Sep. 28, 2007, 07:11 PM
Please could someone point me to where the FEI have said they are doing an investigation?

I understand the Dutch NF are..but the FEI?

Pony Fixer
Sep. 28, 2007, 09:19 PM
I rode my horse around warmup today to prep for a USDF show tomorrow. I can report, to my horror....

....no rollkur seen!

However, I did see several people nagging their horses with spurs EVERY stride. And several, what appeared to be, ill-fitting saddles. :eek:

Careful, for I am a "little nobody". I'm bringing my camera tomorrow! :lol:

claire
Sep. 28, 2007, 10:24 PM
Careful, for I am a "little nobody". I'm bringing my camera tomorrow!

I'll be at a USDF show too. But, I'm bringing my FEI attorney as well as my camera! :eek:

So watch out "Big Somebodies", don't bring your shrunken side reins or you'll be seeing yourself on the Internet! :winkgrin:

Sonesta
Sep. 29, 2007, 08:08 PM
I'll be at a USDF show too. But, I'm bringing my FEI attorney as well as my camera! :eek:

So watch out "Big Somebodies", don't bring your shrunken side reins or you'll be seeing yourself on the Internet! :winkgrin:

Maybe not such a bad idea. If they know the public eye is on them.........

But then, we won't necessarily see what happens at home or just off the show grounds, will we?

claire
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:23 PM
But then, we won't necessarily see what happens at home or just off the show grounds, will we?

Yes, but if you eliminated it on the showgrounds, I think that would put a kink in the performances of those riders who need that type of warmup to perform like they do? And then, what would be the point of training with that system?

I just wonder what some of these rides would be like with out the pre-performance RK fix? :confused: