PDA

View Full Version : Pics of Coby van Balen teaching student how to lunge Power and Paint in rollkur



Pages : [1] 2

Fantastic
Sep. 21, 2007, 12:35 PM
I am posting this because of the extreme position that this pony's head is tied. It is very shocking, disguesting, and saddening to me to see a horse lunged like this!

Here you'll find pictures of Coby van Balen teaching her 15-year old tudent, Angela Krooswijk how to lunge her horse in rollkur:

http://www.syndicatlinaro.com/SLforum/read.php?f=1&i=22151&t=22151

From the Eurodressage site:

"The rollkur debate hasn't died yet. The Swedish magazine Tidningen Ridsport has posted photos of the Dutch FEI Dressage Pony Power and Paint on the lunge line with draw reins setting his head in the rollkur/LDR position. The pictures were apparently taken at the 2007 European Pony Championships in Freudenberg, Germany, and show Power's rider, the 15-year old Angela Krooswijk, lunging her pony in the rollkur under the supervision of her trainer. On their website, Tidningen Ridsport has started a debate on these photos."

http://www.tidningenridsport.se/default.asp?ArticleID=378787&CategoryID=7629&ArticleOutputTemplateID=560&ArticleStateID=2


Poor pony!

twnkltoz
Sep. 21, 2007, 12:44 PM
Oh goody, another rollkur thread. We haven't had one in a while, so I guess it was time.

claire
Sep. 21, 2007, 12:46 PM
But surely, these photo's just represent a "Moment in Time"? ;)

Or have they been photo-shopped by someone with an "Agenda"? :winkgrin:

Fantastic
Sep. 21, 2007, 12:48 PM
:sadsmile: I guess it was my turn to start one, seeing as I haven't responded to such posts before.

Ibex
Sep. 21, 2007, 12:59 PM
A friend of mine who used to be a pro, including a stint in Europe, has recently come back to the dressage scene. She was in shock that this is being brought up as a new "issue" - she said it's been very common practice to lunge "in Rollkur", and has been forever.

She didn't agree with it, but also pointed out that the European system is very much a "sink or swim" environment, and horses that can't hack it are culled from the program.

class
Sep. 21, 2007, 01:04 PM
i can't for the life of me see what this is "training" the horse to do? is it somehow supposedly creating suppleness in the neck or what is the explanation?

Halt At X
Sep. 21, 2007, 01:10 PM
Without starting a huge debate, can someone explain what the intended purpose of the rollkur is?

Apparently it's been brought up before and people do not seem thrilled about revisiting the subject. I assume it's one of those things people feel strongly for or against.....

ponyjumper4
Sep. 21, 2007, 01:14 PM
I don't know, but I'll gladly take the pony!

Sandra6500
Sep. 21, 2007, 01:18 PM
i can't for the life of me see what this is "training" the horse to do? is it somehow supposedly creating suppleness in the neck or what is the explanation?

The purpose is to make the horse stretch over and use his back. I don't really need to shredded by the masses on this board, but will say that used to a less extreme degree I think its useful.

mbamissaz
Sep. 21, 2007, 01:28 PM
horses that can't hack it are culled from the program.

haha...I wonder where they're sent.... ;)

A Horse of Course
Sep. 21, 2007, 01:31 PM
I thought that Anky's rolkur method would not involve side reins put on in this manner, and that those who do are misunderstanding the method? Or at least that's what is said.

In my mind, side reins used in this way have nothing to do with any "method", side reins are misused in a variety ways and in a variety of disciplines and have been before the rolkur debates began...and IMO it's just wrong, period, to use them in this way.

Speedy
Sep. 21, 2007, 01:32 PM
i can't for the life of me see what this is "training" the horse to do? is it somehow supposedly creating suppleness in the neck or what is the explanation?

I imagine that when you finally release the poor thing from this, he'll do anything you want him to do, he's so damn happy to be free. This looks to me like something intended to break the spirit, to force submission. I think there are a lot of other ways to get it, but there are always those who prefer a short cut.

A lot of people don't see it that way though - as is bound to be obvious by the upcoming train wreck.

SGray
Sep. 21, 2007, 01:46 PM
....Here you'll find pictures of Coby van Balen teaching her 15-year old tudent, Angela Krooswijk how to lunge her horse in rollkur:

http://www.syndicatlinaro.com/SLforum/read.php?f=1&i=22151&t=22151

......

:(:o:sigh::dead:

AZ Native
Sep. 21, 2007, 02:10 PM
It's absolutely disgusting. The horrible strain on the neck of that poor pony, among other things. No way in hell can that be good for his body. And I'm pretty dang sure he can't see anything but the ground straight down. No wonder it's refered to as '' learned helplessness. '' Just plain cruel is the only word for it. Un friggin believable.
I've never commented on the RK threads before, but INMHO, it needs to come up to educate people that are not aware of it and to keep shining a light on it untill it dies the death that it deserves.Not something to be proudly passing on to the yougins.

Mozart
Sep. 21, 2007, 02:12 PM
Ack.
I guess that I can SORT OF see the point of sometimes riding round and deep for brief periods, making sure the horse is tracking up behind, to try to effect some sort of deep stretch over the top line. Not sure how this would fit into that theory.

These look like sliding reins and athough the pony just looks like he has buried his nose in his chest, I am going to presume that they expect him to become round as well as he brings his head down and that they plan to make sure he really steps up underneath himself. I don't think it is the intention that his head remain in that exact position.

HOWEVER, how would they plan to provide a quick and appropriate release when pony gives them the stretching that they want? This looks counterproductive to me. But I am no FEI trainer, so what do I know?

Karla
Sep. 21, 2007, 02:29 PM
That is SUCH a beautiful pony!

cinder88
Sep. 21, 2007, 02:32 PM
Does anyone know how the pony and rider DID at the show?

Cinder

hluing
Sep. 21, 2007, 02:33 PM
I am a huge Power and Paint fan and I too am a bit disheartened to see these pics. I am nolt anti-Rolkur per say...but that does not look healthy;(

Sannois
Sep. 21, 2007, 02:40 PM
I am posting this because of the extreme position that this pony's head is tied. It is very shocking, disguesting, and saddening to me to see a horse lunged like this!

Here you'll find pictures of Coby van Balen teaching her 15-year old tudent, Angela Krooswijk how to lunge her horse in rollkur:

http://www.syndicatlinaro.com/SLforum/read.php?f=1&i=22151&t=22151

From the Eurodressage site:

"The rollkur debate hasn't died yet. The Swedish magazine Tidningen Ridsport has posted photos of the Dutch FEI Dressage Pony Power and Paint on the lunge line with draw reins setting his head in the rollkur/LDR position. The pictures were apparently taken at the 2007 European Pony Championships in Freudenberg, Germany, and show Power's rider, the 15-year old Angela Krooswijk, lunging her pony in the rollkur under the supervision of her trainer. On their website, Tidningen Ridsport has started a debate on these photos."

http://www.tidningenridsport.se/default.asp?ArticleID=378787&CategoryID=7629&ArticleOutputTemplateID=560&ArticleStateID=2


Poor pony!
that poor animal exactly what?? Seriously thats a disgrace. Anyone cranking sidereins or lunging in a gouge would think that extreme. Pathetic! It would appear the practice is alive and well and being passed on to the new young riders!
:no:

carolprudm
Sep. 21, 2007, 02:52 PM
I am a huge Power and Paint fan and I too am a bit disheartened to see these pics. I am nolt anti-Rolkur per say...but that does not look healthy;(
What is his breeding?

EZ
Sep. 21, 2007, 03:14 PM
Does anyone know how the pony and rider DID at the show?

Cinder

They were fourth individually and the team was second.

Power and Paint is a POWER BOY x PrH DANCER

These pictures make me sick...

ShowMeTheGlory
Sep. 21, 2007, 03:19 PM
Jesus Christmas was the first thing out of my mouth. What the f *** is wrong with people?

snoopy
Sep. 21, 2007, 03:38 PM
Well as soon as FEI judges STOP rewarding those riders who practice such "training"..then we may see a differance...but I would not hold my breath...especially when the chair-woman says "well that is just the way it is done now a days:mad:)

Moll
Sep. 21, 2007, 03:40 PM
I repeat what I've always said when Rollkur comes up:

No, you don't do that to horses.

Seriously, if you would see someone training, say, a show or agility dog like that, wouldn't you call the police?

Daydream Believer
Sep. 21, 2007, 03:43 PM
:no::no::no::confused::confused::confused:

How can anyone endorse a abusive training method like this? And how can a dressage rider look at this and say OK and shrug? Jesus those pics are revolting.

Edited to add that if you scroll down that page you open you can see a pic of her riding him under saddle. His neck looks quite short and bunched in that pic...no wonder. I understand just enough French to get the gist that they don't care for the pics much either...

monstrpony
Sep. 21, 2007, 03:51 PM
Makes Clinton Anderson look downright humane ... :no:

Daydream Believer
Sep. 21, 2007, 03:53 PM
Makes Clinton Anderson look downright humane ... :no:

Yes, I started to coment on that in my thread but edited it out...I think this will be controversial enough without adding fuel to the fire....

SillyHorse
Sep. 21, 2007, 03:59 PM
:(:no::confused::mad: especially :mad: no, especially :( hell I don't know, it's just sickening.

Fantastic
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:22 PM
Power and Paint was once ridden by both of the van Balen girls, and has won many championships over the years. I think this young girl is now possibly his fourth rider that he has galantly taken into the limelight.

HOW COULD ANY PERSON WHO HAS A PASSION FOR DRESSAGE (which these people seem to forget is all about harmony, unity, and BEAUTY) POSSIBLY ENGAGE IN SUCH AN UGLY EXCUSE FOR TRAINING (dressage), I must ask?

So this sort of tying of the horses head or riding in RK is supposed to take the horse over his back? Poor Power and Paint! His back looks inverted to me, and his loin looks UNDER DEVELOPED. Would you agree?

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:37 PM
The judges will watch a rider be heavy handed and open handed and any kinda get your dang head down handed and give them a good submission score all of the time here. I ride hunt seat and I open my hands less and bump alot less than the high scoring dressage rider in my neck of the woods who trains in our arena. We have a video of one of my lessons with her in the background in a deep deep bend to her knee the entire ride walk trot canter. Maybe it was just a video in time.

grayarabs
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:42 PM
The whole thing is horrible beyond words. Poor pony. I had not heard of him before - ran a search - found a Youtube video of him - he does seem to go BTV and poll not highest.
He is just so adorable - and a stallion? The video shows him to be rather cranked in - tightly held in front. I would love to see him worked in 'free gaits' as CdeK would ask for - let him stretch in w/t/c/ - get back some - well what - cannot think of the words - freedom of expression - improvement of gaits, etc. I cannot see how lunging him like that could be of any benefit - it is cruel and demeaning - unnecessary - and harmful. So sad.
This pony seems to be well known, loved and popular - hope that the "big guns" in Europe step in and do something for him - what I don't know. Don't know how much of Europe has seen these photos - but I cannot imagine anyone defending his chin on his chest like that - and I hope folks would start protesting. Really - what to do? Someone save him!!

EZ
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:43 PM
I understand just enough French to get the gist that they don't care for the pics much either...

Huh??? Is it my lack of english or are you saying that they don't care about how this pony is lunge??

They are all like: "oh my god", "to anyone who does not want to throw up raise your hand", "What do they say when you ask them why they stuck this pony like that? How can they explain such a horrible thing?", "Well, we better understand why he is looking better when he is ridden, he must feel so free", "Nothing excuses that", "This is abusing", "poor pony", etc etc etc

Actually, I think that they do care as well. The guy who took the picture is french and he is the one who sent it to the eurodressage website to let the people know about this horrible training... :no:

Daydream Believer
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:48 PM
No you misunderstood. I meant to convey that I could understand enough French to realize the unhappiness of the persons on that other forum. My intention was to say that the people there did not care for what they SAW in the pics. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I could have said it more clearly.

SillyHorse
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:49 PM
Yes, it is a small lacking in your English. Not caring FOR something is very different from not caring ABOUT something. Not caring FOR something means you don't like it.

EZ
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:49 PM
No you misunderstood. I meant to convey that I could understand enough French to realize the unhappiness of the persons on that other forum. My intention was to say that the people there did not care for what they SAW in the pics. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I could have said it more clearly.

Ok, my bad. Sorry about that! :sadsmile:
I guess I've read too quickly! Sorry again!

Ilex
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:50 PM
Unfortunately....

Dressage is becoming for me ...

a bit of a joke.

No different then the oft times brutal training methods ...

in

the western pleasure disciplines

reining

and show horses.

Why can we not have a discipline where the horses

do not have to become

contortion artists

so that the humans

can win a ribbon?????????????????

Oh no that's right......this is about money.

flshgordon
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:53 PM
what on earth is the pony supposed to learn from that? At least with ridden RK the reins could be released occasionally. Some people are two stupid to be allowed to have horses!

citydog
Sep. 21, 2007, 04:58 PM
:no:

Sannois
Sep. 21, 2007, 05:03 PM
Power and Paint was once ridden by both of the van Balen girls, and has won many championships over the years. I think this young girl is now possibly his fourth rider that he has galantly taken into the limelight.

HOW COULD ANY PERSON WHO HAS A PASSION FOR DRESSAGE (which these people seem to forget is all about harmony, unity, and BEAUTY) POSSIBLY ENGAGE IN SUCH AN UGLY EXCUSE FOR TRAINING (dressage), I must ask?

So this sort of tying of the horses head or riding in RK is supposed to take the horse over his back? Poor Power and Paint! His back looks inverted to me, and his loin looks UNDER DEVELOPED. Would you agree?

Its a disgrace!!!!

sunnyfarm
Sep. 21, 2007, 05:06 PM
I too have never posted to a rollkur thread-that poor animal and that poor student. People really need to take a step back and use some common sense and realize the end doesn't always justify the means. We are responsible for the welfare of the horse and shouldn't be so desensitized that we can't see the inhumanity of this practice.

Sannois
Sep. 21, 2007, 05:11 PM
I repeat what I've always said when Rollkur comes up:

No, you don't do that to horses.

Seriously, if you would see someone training, say, a show or agility dog like that, wouldn't you call the police?

I wonder that myself. I have called people out for alot less at horse shows. Are people just so worried about what others may think and just look the other way. I'm sorry but Any Dressage trainer worth a thing will look on those as utter abuse and false training.. I could care less what anyone thinks of me saying that. I have a highly regarded s judge as a trainer and she has told me again and again that that form of training is an abomination to Dressage. But it is being rewarded. :no:

FancyFree
Sep. 21, 2007, 05:24 PM
I don't understand what they hope to acheive from that sort of training. I had a clinic with a woman who worked with me on my horse's hard left side. She'd have me pull her nose into my boot as we walked around in a circle, then release. Then we did it at the trot. It was a give and take thing. It worked in loosening her up. But with this pony, to longe him held in that frame? What results do they get from that? Also don't they run a risk of him pulling a muscle by being cranked into that position?

Whatever the case, it made me sad to look at that.

ideayoda
Sep. 21, 2007, 05:24 PM
This is supposedly in warm up....but the rules say " Single direct side reins are permitted only when lungeing (mounted
or unmounted). " So this is amoung everything else said ILLEGAL lungeing attire for the horse.

ONLY when the decree of 'submission above all else' for the 'transparency for uneducated viewer' is repealed, and purity of gaits and true collection (not flash and tension which destroy them) are made more important will anything change. So, dont turn blue, globalization and selling horses to novices is the rule now. And, we are about two generations of riders into this rk stuff. So few have seen a truely uphill horse with the bearing recommended/suggested by the fei rules (that is now looks 'weird'), and here we see the third generations being shown how to lunge in the de jour methods (line dangling/over flexed/tensed in the belly in search of some sick pursuit of the back up from the effect on the front end vs the effect of proper folding of the hindlegs).

BEARCAT
Sep. 21, 2007, 05:25 PM
Pretty much every post on that french site reflects disgust at the photos posted.
It even asks what is the point of protecting the pony's legs when they are ruining him from the inside...

Daydream Believer
Sep. 21, 2007, 05:26 PM
Ok, my bad. Sorry about that! :sadsmile:
I guess I've read too quickly! Sorry again!

It's Ok. :)

SGray
Sep. 21, 2007, 06:04 PM
only the judges can stop this -- and only the FEI can make the judges stop this

one does not have to see the warmup to know which horses are subjected to this as it shows in their physical appearance (weird development of muscles in neck / poor development of muscles in hindquarters) as well as their way of going

if the FEI told judges that this must be marked down it would stop in an instant

Dalfan
Sep. 21, 2007, 06:08 PM
only the judges can stop this -- and only the FEI can make the judges stop this

Perhaps it's time they started watching/judging/scoring what goes on in the warm-ups - which is where they will find this ugly, disgusting "training". Terrible.

Ilex; are your margins set to a low number?:lol::)

dutchmike
Sep. 21, 2007, 06:40 PM
only the judges can stop this -- and only the FEI can make the judges stop this

one does not have to see the warmup to know which horses are subjected to this as it shows in their physical appearance (weird development of muscles in neck / poor development of muscles in hindquarters) as well as their way of going

if the FEI told judges that this must be marked down it would stop in an instant


Exactly and meanwhile just don't train with people that use methods that you don't agree with. The problem here is that many many people moan about her and others like her yet when they come to the US and give clinics they go and suck up. It is not only the judges etc that can stop this YOU can put a stop to this if people wouldn't go to clinics of people like this.:mad:

Trixie's mom
Sep. 21, 2007, 07:25 PM
I showed these pictures to my husband and he thought they were disgusting. he hopes that having these pictures posted worldwide aids in making a change. i hated to tell him that is happens a lot.

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Sep. 21, 2007, 07:26 PM
Poor pony![/QUOTE]

I tend to agree. I get a headache just looking at this pony.
Even in articles about Anky van Grunsven using this technique, she emphasized that it is to be done for short periods only and the flexion needed to change very frequently.


And I'm new to the board, hello everyone.

dalpal
Sep. 21, 2007, 07:34 PM
Poor pony will be need of a good chiropractor after a session like that. :no:
Cram your neck down like that for a long period of time...then try to lift it to normal position afterwards...can we say PAINFUL.

Boo Hiss on this lady and her lunging methods.:mad:

Mac123
Sep. 21, 2007, 07:46 PM
WOW...I can see some merit to some very elementary, deeper, stretching, but there is no excuse for something like that. That goes past the rolkur that I've seen. Tying the pony's head to THAT extreme? Absolutely sickening.

To me it only shows one of two things. Either these people are ignorant enough to not know that this is very, very damaging, or they are so unskilled and innept that they can't produce the results the correct way.

There is NO excuse for either of those 2 options.

Really, I'm speechless.

GreekDressageQueen
Sep. 21, 2007, 08:22 PM
I am curious as to one thing...my cousin is a dancer/gymnast/ballet dancer, etc... and she can stretch and contort her body in really unusual positions and shapes. I would really snap something if I tried to do the stuff she does. So....if these horses have been raised with rollkur - are they somehow 'overstretched' (like a ballet dancer) and, thus, what looks painful to us is actually quite comfortable to them? I am NOT trying to defend rollkur, but I am trying to understand it by analyzing it from a logical perspective.

dalpal
Sep. 21, 2007, 08:26 PM
Geek, I have a horse that was ridden front to back for years, not to the extreme of this picture, but cranked in. When my chiro started working on him...his head was crooked, had lots of muscle/verterbrae issues....it's taken about a year to get this horse back together....so from my limited experience...my answer would be no.

ideayoda
Sep. 21, 2007, 08:28 PM
The nuchal ligament holds the horse together (sets limits) end to end. When the horse is tressed like this the ligament (which is INelastic) is put into contast contraction, so it becomes stressed (ie when the horse changes flexion over the wings of the vertebral bodies it is irritated...IF it changes over... many of these horse do not flip the ligament to the inside even when they are cranked to the riders toes laterrally. And realize that rk includes not only lateral overflexion, but longitudinal to the riders leg as well (hence the hand HAS to be pulling back to enforce that degree). And anyone who think its used briely ought to time the hours of warmup.

sidepasser
Sep. 21, 2007, 08:41 PM
Is winning really that important to put a horse through that?

Obviously there are some that think so and give no regard to the horse.

TBROCKS
Sep. 21, 2007, 08:55 PM
The first post in French said it all:
"Oh mon dieu :-O"

snoopy
Sep. 21, 2007, 08:57 PM
Is winning really that important to put a horse through that?

Obviously there are some that think so and give no regard to the horse.


Like anky and sjef...who actually train Coby's daughter.:cry:

Dalfan
Sep. 21, 2007, 09:08 PM
Even in articles about Anky van Grunsven using this technique, she emphasized that it is to be done for short periods only and the flexion needed to change very frequently.

Welcome!

Have you seen the vids of AvG rollkuring?? She uses it for quite a bit more than short periods. Just as (or even worse) than these pics.

slc2
Sep. 21, 2007, 09:08 PM
you can't make a ligament contract, the definition of a ligament is that it does not contract. and this position doesn't keep the nuchal ligmanent 'in a state of constant contraction'.

i agree with the person who said a person can stretch and contort themselves into amazing positions. i've seen people with yoga do things with their bodies that one could not imagine. they spend years loosening up and suppling up. in india, the yoga practioners stand out from the crowd in an unbelievable way, they are stronger, more supple and amazingly athletic and fit.

regardless, the pictures made me pretty sick too. it's just too much. it was too much a long time before it got to that.

EssentialEQST
Sep. 21, 2007, 10:14 PM
Haven't read the other posts... my first reaction was "How the hell can that pony breathe!?" :eek:

slc2
Sep. 21, 2007, 10:17 PM
obviously he can breathe.

even if he can breathe perfectly well i wouldn't want to put a horse in this extreme of a position.

EasyStreet
Sep. 21, 2007, 10:27 PM
Sorry , I didn't read all the post either. My question is "What did this poor pony do to deserve this??":cry::cry: But the photos look as though this is "business as usual" for this trainer.:(

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Sep. 21, 2007, 10:27 PM
One of my yoga teacher's favorite reminders is: If you're not breathing, it's not yoga. And that means a conscious, full breath, not a pressed one. You can't force anyone into an Asana, or even if you could, it's still not yoga. This kind of forceful pushing into poses just causes injuries. "Real" yoga is the full expression of someone, it's not about how deep one is in the pose, it's about creating space in the body, and in the mind. A well trained horse in complete self-carriage, for example, would resemble yoga much more than this tied-down pony.

dalpal
Sep. 21, 2007, 10:57 PM
Yes, dressage is like yoga...when you stretch your horse over their toplines into connection....NOT when you cram them BACKWARDS into a pair of freaking sidereins. :no:

petitefilly
Sep. 22, 2007, 12:19 AM
Pretty much every post on that french site reflects disgust at the photos posted.
It even asks what is the point of protecting the pony's legs when they are ruining him from the inside...


I noticed that too. Everyone was appalled about the photo, even in France. :(

Alas, I did think draw reins were the worst things you could do to a horse to teach it incorrect formation of the hind end and back muscles. I guess I was wrong. I cannot believe that this is a common practice, but I suppose here again I am wrong. As someone else said, this is teaching a young person how to train a horse. <sigh> I will be long gone when the new dressage is this way all the time I hope. I still have memories, being an old fart can be unexpectantly nice when you can recall the seventies, and eighties in the dressage world. Where is Klimke? Dead and rolling over with his eyes shut. He'd be appalled too.

YoungFilly
Sep. 22, 2007, 12:27 AM
This is wrong. :no:

Sabine
Sep. 22, 2007, 12:38 AM
I LOVE riding deep- I do believe that it helps the horse to stretch down and forward- even in a soft unrestricted arch down and in- but this is insane. What a poor and gorgeous pony!!

Goes to show that a really good horse won't break- it's amazing!! I guess the many times that we all fought- we fought about something different- this is not what I was ever signing up for- even remotely...and I guess it being a sweet pony with a gorgeous body drives the point home even more... and it being sidereins-drawreins- even the double- all of this is not what I am after at all!!

But I guess these are big name trainers and they ARE winning- so I guess this is what the game is now- at least in Europe at the top...??? MMH...I guess I am happy being far away from that style...

Spiritpaws
Sep. 22, 2007, 07:53 AM
These photos of this pony have absolutely nothing to do with Anky's system, Rollkur, deep, or Schulten-Baumer. What Colby is doing with those side reins as no relation to any of the aforementioned systems.

Having spent almost a year training at Van Grunsven's, I can say without reservation, that this is not a Sjef method of lunging. Having spent two weeks at Hinneman's, I can say this is not a Hinneman technique either.

Having watched Colby while she was paired with Ferro, I am just shocked that she would work the pony this way.

I can only hope the pony was released from this siderein bondage after a very short period of time.

slc2
Sep. 22, 2007, 08:00 AM
I think that the pony appears very thick through the throat latch, and i can see wanting to do something to stretch the horse right there, right in the throat latch. i can see needing to do that. i can see too that he is obviously able to stretch very well over the neck, it's just that spot that is very thick and needs stretching. this might be related to the pony part of his breeding - some ponies are thick and inflexible there. i also see that they are well capable of then riding the pony in a correct position. he's not low in the poll and there is a contact with the reins and he's working along well. he can breathe, i don't think he's in any pain, i'm not convinced this is going on and on for hours....I STILL wouldn't want to do this.

fjp
Sep. 22, 2007, 08:09 AM
Incidentally, there is now a response statement on Eurodressage in response to the photos - http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/holland/2007/power-rollkur.html . Can't say it wins me over at all, as I can't begin to imagine a way of using lunge equipment that would allow the set-up pictured to be used 'accidentally' and not be detected by 2 experienced handlers until the pony was sent out on the lunge. But I freely admit I am the lowliest of amateurs!
FP (dragged out of lurking in disbelief...)

ADW
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:01 AM
this looks like nothing short of torture

Uncle Fester
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:07 AM
Uncle Fester saw the response in English by Coby herself at the bottom of the OP original link. Uncle Fester finds it hard to believe that Ms. Coby did not set the reins exactly as she intended to begin with. A bit lame of an excuse, really. :no::no:

Rusty Stirrup
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:08 AM
It's very sad. It used to be when people would ask me about dressage I could tell them it was all about correct, classical training and riding. That it was good for the horse. I can't say that anymore.

dutchmike
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:16 AM
Ok that statement she made is total BS. She would have been better off not sayinging anything. A woman with her experience does not make stupid missstakes like that by accident. If you do something wrong but think it is a good way atleast stand by your decision and don't double talk and back peddle.

Lawn Ornament
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:50 AM
Incidentally, there is now a response statement on Eurodressage in response to the photos - http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/holland/2007/power-rollkur.html .

Somewhere in the Netherlands, there's a woman walking around with her britches on fire... that's total BS! I can understand needing to adjust side reins a few inches, but not several feet. :(

Hony
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:18 AM
I think the statement is fair. If anyone would really like to take issue with the trainer then they should email her. It is soooo easy for a photographer to take a picture like that and get a rise out of people when it could easily have been an error in rigging. Who are we to say that it wasn't.
I know I have attached side reins too short only to adjust them half a circle later. Just because you are a professional doesn't mean you don't make mistakes.

slc2
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:37 AM
So what did it look like when she got it rigged up the way she wanted it, LOL!

yeah, anyone can make a mistake.

egontoast
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:47 AM
I think that the pony appears very thick through the throat latch, and i can see wanting to do something to stretch the horse right there, right in the throat latch. i can see needing to do that. i can see too that he is obviously able to stretch very well over the neck, it's just that spot that is very thick and needs stretching. this might be related to the pony part of his breeding - some ponies are thick and inflexible there. i also see that they are well capable of then riding the pony in a correct position. he's not low in the poll and there is a contact with the reins and he's working along well. he can breathe, i don't think he's in any pain, i'm not convinced this is going on and on for hours....I STILL wouldn't want to do this.


FLip FLop. Slc "can see needing to that" because the pony has a thick throatlach (um, he's a stallion and he has a stallion neck) and Slc thinks he's 'working along well" but , funny thing, even CVB doesn't agree :

"To be absolutely clear: it serves no purpose to lunge in this particular way, "

By the way, for those wanting to make this about rolkur. This is not about rollkur or Anky or Sjef or about how all the upper level riders in the world train today or about corrupt judges turning a blind eye and the sad state of the FEI such that everyone on the bulletin boards should boycott all international competitions!:eek: OUch that's going to hurt attendance!

It's about a pony apparently being lunged with extremely short/tight sidereins.

How about looking at each trainer as an individual when you want to critique the training methods instead of lumping them all in together.

slc2
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:58 AM
it's not a flip flop at all. i can see the need to supple horses, i am saying, i just can't see the need to go to these extremes. i am also saying, even if it does work and supple the horse up, i STILL don't want to do something like this.

i can even see the use for riding deep sometimes, but not to go to this sort of extreme.

and whatever coby van baalen says about this, it doesn't actually sound like everyone really accepts that this is 'just an equipment mistake', so 'even coby doesn't agree with that' might not be totally relevant. unless the photos were all 1 second apart or it takes them a couple minutes of watching the horse to decide the side reins are too short, it doesn't really look like anyone is in any hurry to change the equipment.

Feuerlilie
Sep. 22, 2007, 11:18 AM
I cant see the picture!!!

egontoast
Sep. 22, 2007, 11:23 AM
"and whatever coby van baalen says about this, it doesn't actually sound like everyone really accepts that this is 'just an equipment mistake', so 'even coby doesn't agree with that' might not be totally relevant. "

The point is, unlike you, she's not trying to justify it as a training method, is she?

flippity floppity

Dalfan
Sep. 22, 2007, 11:35 AM
You can see that it is the start of the lunge as the pony is either standing or walking and he is not sweating from the exercise.

Rollkur is wrong, wrong, wrong at any stage of riding, IMHO, but to START out a session like this.....:no::eek::mad:



These photos of this pony have absolutely nothing to do with Anky's system,

Sorry - I don't see much diifference between the rollkured pony and this;

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/index.php

I really don't care if it's ridden, in-hand or on the lunge - ugly and disgusting any way.

I agree with those who say - BS. Like she would really let someone with an agenda take photos of her, and somehow only take those that show the abuse. Right

claire
Sep. 22, 2007, 11:36 AM
:yes:


Ok that statement she made is total BS. She would have been better off not sayinging anything. A woman with her experience does not make stupid missstakes like that by accident. If you do something wrong but think it is a good way atleast stand by your decision and don't double talk and back peddle.

Makes you wonder about a "trainer" who is so quick to try and (badly) spin her training methods as an "accident". What a lousy attempt at "damage control" :confused:

My esteem of Coby Van Balaan dropped dramatically upon viewing the photos. After this latest statement, I have no respect for her at all. :no:

Liz
Sep. 22, 2007, 11:40 AM
I am not taking any sides but there are no pictures of the pony trotting in that get up and the pony is not even sweating. If there were more "sensational" photographs I am sure the photographer would have taken them. I don't think you can dismiss her explination immediately as BS.

It is a victory alone that these photos have gotten enough uproar that she has felt compelled to issue a public explination. You got to start somewhere.

XHalt
Sep. 22, 2007, 01:06 PM
Maybe it's just me, but it does look like there's some slack in the side reins between the two dees on his surcingle. Maybe the pony just hadn't stretched out towards the contact. I'm not a RK supporter, just trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

Dressage Art
Sep. 22, 2007, 01:11 PM
These photos of this pony have absolutely nothing to do with Anky's system, Rollkur, deep, or Schulten-Baumer. What Colby is doing with those side reins as no relation to any of the aforementioned systems.

Having spent almost a year training at Van Grunsven's, I can say without reservation, that this is not a Sjef method of lunging. Having spent two weeks at Hinneman's, I can say this is not a Hinneman technique either.

Having watched Colby while she was paired with Ferro, I am just shocked that she would work the pony this way.

I can only hope the pony was released from this siderein bondage after a very short period of time.

Interesting. So how does Anky, Schulten-Baumer, Sjef lunges regulary in Rollkur method?

Eventer13
Sep. 22, 2007, 01:15 PM
Maybe it's just me, but it does look like there's some slack in the side reins between the two dees on his surcingle. Maybe the pony just hadn't stretched out towards the contact. I'm not a RK supporter, just trying to give someone the benefit of the doubt.

Even if the pony were stretching, there's no way he wouldnt have been WAY BTV.

Drvmb1ggl3
Sep. 22, 2007, 01:21 PM
In the pictures, both myself and my student are looking at the pony and immediately saw that the lunge was not established correctly. We allow the pony to walk a couple of seconds and change the lunge immediately so that it is in its normal position.

LOLOLOLOLOL

Oops, I just realised his muzzle is touching his chest! How did that happen?
That has to be the lamest attempt at a backpedal I've ever seen.

ToN Farm
Sep. 22, 2007, 01:27 PM
My question would be why the photographer didn't capture a photo of the pony lunging in the equipment? Could it be because it wasn't dramatic enough?

I won't pass judgement on this trainer because of this photo. There is probably no horse loving person that wouldn't cringe at the presented photos. Still, I am very much against these people going out with cameras on witch hunts of dressage riders being abusive.

I wish Erin would allow Theo back on the board to discuss this issue.

Pony Fixer
Sep. 22, 2007, 01:52 PM
I actually have no opinion on rollkur, although the photos are shocking.

At the bottom of the initial OP link, there is now the reaction to the reaction from the photographer.

The photog is calling BS too.

Liz
Sep. 22, 2007, 03:07 PM
Pictures of the pony trotting with his mouth gaping open would have been much more sensational, why didn't the photographer get those pictures? Probably because they did not happen.
The pictures are shocking but they are also decidedly one sided. Even Coby acknowledges that the position is wrong. Why didn't the photographer show pictures from later in the session. Perhaps the side reins were adjusted and the pictures were not as "sensational" therefore they did not get published.

I am not taking sides, I just can't believe how so many people won't even CONSIDER that there might be more to it.

citydog
Sep. 22, 2007, 03:17 PM
The photographers response, from the original thread (http://www.syndicatlinaro.com/SLforum/read.php?f=1&i=22151&t=22151):

Auteur: GL
Date: 22-09-07 18:18

"Reaction
In short, my reaction to the Swedish magazine comes down to the following. The fact is that the photographer took these pictures in the first minute of the lunge with Power and Point"
-> WRONG. I was passing in front of the paddock when I have been very chocked by your lunging, had time to go and park my car far away, to take my camera and to walk back up to the paddock in order to take the pictures. You know very well the following...

"as the pony is either standing or walking and he is not sweating from the exercise. In the pictures, both myself and my student are looking at the pony and immediately saw that the lunge was not established correctly".
-> WRONG

"We allow the pony to walk a couple of seconds and change the lunge immediately so that it is in its normal position. After that, we have been able to lunge the pony in a good way, resulting in the pony’s looseness with a beautiful posture".
-> WRONG

"Unfortunately, the photographer was not interested in this and did not make pictures of that, which I regret".
-> INCREDIBLE to dare to say so !

"and this was a one-off incident from which my student has learned and which lasted no longer than half a minute".
-> WRONG

Clarity
I hope that, by way of this letter, I have clarified the situation and the background of the pictures and our way of training. To be absolutely clear: it serves no purpose to lunge in this particular way, it was a one-off incident which was immediately corrected
-> WRONG

The photographer in the presence of which you have been very very embarassed.
Guillaume Levesque.

arnika
Sep. 22, 2007, 03:19 PM
Looking at those pictures very carefully, the thing that jumps out at me is that they are taken from several different angles of the lungers and the pony. The pony had obviously gone around the circle more than once or twice.

You'll also see if you look closely that the surcingle starts out in a fairly normal position and is getting pulled forward towards the front of the shoulder. This is in conjunction with the pony being able to move his bottom jaw a couple of inches away from his chest.

It's pretty plain to tell that this lunging was for at least several times around if not more and the poor pony had to pull so hard that he moved the surcingle just to give himself a couple of inches of room. I'd say he was straining with as much strength as he could use in that position to "reach forward into the contact" and was being prevented by the torture system they had set up for him..........

I'm glad Coby van Baalen published the name of her student(Angela Krooswijk). I'm filing it away for future reference. If this is her training background I would never want to send a horse to her or buy one from her for that matter. (And yes, I realize she is only 15. At the age of 15 or below I had more feeling for my animals than that.:no:)

Liz
Sep. 22, 2007, 03:23 PM
Again, why are there no more pictures? The photographer says "wrong" but never takes any other pictures of the trot or canter?

No one can argue that what she is doing is gross, I am just saying there are 2 sides and if the photographer wanted to represent the whole story there would be more pictures. I am sure Coby is embaressed, she should be but I am not ready to crucify her.

arnika
Sep. 22, 2007, 03:33 PM
Again, if you look closely you will see the pony's mouth IS open in each photo. Unfortunately, he is wearing both a heavy, very tight noseband and a very tight flash. He couldn't open his mouth any more if he wanted to.

And I'm quite sure he wanted to.:mad:

EZ
Sep. 22, 2007, 03:42 PM
I don't know what happened after those pictures was taken but MAYBE someone came to tell her to do something about that because some guy was taken pictures of her or whatever... I don't know.

But I think that this is so easy to say that she noticed the side reins setting was wrong, and she changed it. Well, YES it was. Come on, you can see how wrong it is when you put the chin of the pony on his neck!!! You don't need a couple of seconds to see that, you don't need minutes. You know it the moment you put the side reins so tight...

And even if it was only at the walk. Can you excuse that? Well... I can't :no:

Liz
Sep. 22, 2007, 03:44 PM
Yet there are no more pictures??? If this was such a sensational event that went on and on why are there no more pictures? I think the photographers pictures are one sided. He clearly does not want to tell the whole story. He could refute Coby's claim if he published more pictures demonstrating that the abuse went on. I just can't help but wonder if there was an agenda?

Again, not defending Coby...just not ready to write her or a 15 year old girl straight to hell.

arnika
Sep. 22, 2007, 03:54 PM
by Coby
In short, my reaction to the Swedish magazine comes down to the following. The fact is that the photographer took these pictures in the first minute of the lunge with Power and Point"

by Guillaume Levesque-> WRONG. I was passing in front of the paddock when I have been very chocked by your lunging, had time to go and park my car far away, to take my camera and to walk back up to the paddock in order to take the pictures. You know very well the following...


Sounds pretty plain to me that he saw this as he was driving in, parked his car, unpacked his camera and walked back and set up and even then had time to take pictures from several positions. His version definitely agrees with what I saw in reviewing the pictures and posted BEFORE I saw the translation of his reply.

Based on the testimony before my eyes I am more than "ready to write her or a 15 year old girl straight to hell".

claire
Sep. 22, 2007, 04:00 PM
Again, why are there no more pictures? The photographer says "wrong" but never takes any other pictures of the trot or canter?

Liz, It makes me sick to say this, but something is NQR. Coby's explanations just don't make sense.

-If the sidereins were tightened by "mistake" to that degree, I have to believe the pony would be showing some sort of distress or even be starting to rear or flip? Instead, he has a very placid eye: He has been trained with the sidereins cranked to this degree enough to be used to the "program".

-I cannot believe a trainer/rider of the experience of Coby Van Baalen would not notice that the side reins were too tight until AFTER they sent the pony out on the circle to lunge. I am a novice but I KNOW I would notice the siderein was too tight once I put one side on, let alone my trainer!

But to ask us to believe that Coby and her student adjusted the sidereins with the pony's chin to his chest and had him walk around a *couple* times BEFORE they decided the reins were not properly adjusted??? Is just beyond belief.


-One possible explanation for the lack of more pictures (in the chin-to-chest positioning) could be that CvB STOPPED lunging (in the chin-to-chest position) once she noticed the photographer.

I am coming to the sad conclusion that Dressage in the Big Arena is more about $$$$ and marketing images, than it is about the sport and the beauty of training and partnership of the horse and rider. :(

And I feel sort of "taken".

Red Barn
Sep. 22, 2007, 04:06 PM
Holy cow! This woman actually claims the reins were attached this way "by accident?" What rubbish!

Surely it took a fair amount of effort to crank the pony's face in like that? Hardly an action one could perform "by accident," especially considering the fact that a horse unused to this treatment would be pretty unlikely to submit casually on the first try.

Add to that the even more obvious fact that the greenest of rank beginners - having somehow managed to do such a stupid thing - would correct the mess long before the pony took a single step. It's not like this is a wee detail that's easy to miss!

But CVB claims that she actually had to watch this guy stroll around with his chin on his chest for a while before this little "mistake" finally became apparent to her?

Pathetic.

Eventer13
Sep. 22, 2007, 04:26 PM
-One possible explanation for the lack of more pictures could be that CvB STOPPED lunging once she noticed the photographer.


That's what I was thinking.

dalpal
Sep. 22, 2007, 04:33 PM
Yeah, I think her excuse is pretty pathetic also...I'm trying to imagine the scenerio as she describes it.

Crank, crank again, crank one more time...send pony out on lunge....then have to DISCUSS with a 15 year old student whether those darn reins look a weeee bit tight? so they have to stand there and figure this out while the pony takes just a couple of turns.

Don't believe it for one second....sorry.

grayarabs
Sep. 22, 2007, 04:36 PM
No one but the photographer was there to notice this? No other witnesses in this probable public setting? Surely others saw this - wish someone would come forward. Goodness - I would have been following that pony everywhere - to watch him be worked, ridden, lunged, etc. Has anyone seen the pony being lunged like that anywhere else? But at that venue - was there not a TD or such - where one could say something? And no one did?

egontoast
Sep. 22, 2007, 04:40 PM
Based on the testimony before my eyes I am more than "ready to write her or a 15 year old girl straight to hell".

I wouldn't send her to hell.

http://www.flexquality.nl/gehandicapten.htm

http://www.ncpg.nl/ambassadeurs.asp

Calliope
Sep. 22, 2007, 04:43 PM
So we can either believe that CvB does this to horses deliberately (as the photographer asserts), or that she is incompetent, unobservant and slow to process information (by her own admission).


I'm definitely impressed by her methods. :(

slc2
Sep. 22, 2007, 05:08 PM
i don't feel that screaming about sending her to hell is appropriate either. all i am saying is, i don't want to train my horses this way.

Ghazzu
Sep. 22, 2007, 05:34 PM
Uncle Fester saw the response in English by Coby herself at the bottom of the OP original link. Uncle Fester finds it hard to believe that Ms. Coby did not set the reins exactly as she intended to begin with. A bit lame of an excuse, really. :no::no:

Ghazzu thinks Coby might be well suited to a new career in bridge sales...or perhaps Arizona oceanfront properties.

ToN Farm
Sep. 22, 2007, 05:59 PM
Instead, he has a very placid eye: He has
been trained with the sidereins cranked to this degree enough to be used to the "program".

-One possible explanation for the lack of more pictures could be that CvB STOPPED lunging once she noticed the photographer.

No, she did not stop lunging. Here is her quote


After that, we have been able to lunge the pony in a good way, resulting in the pony’s looseness with a beautiful posture. Unfortunately, the photographer was not interested in this and did not make pictures of that, which I regret.

Interesting Claire, that you say he has a placid eye. I take it then that you don't think he looks distressed? I guess this is the learned helplessness we hear about. Just maybe it isn't as painful as it looks.

claire
Sep. 22, 2007, 06:04 PM
Interesting Claire, that you say he has a placid eye. I take it then that you don't think he looks distressed? I guess this is the learned helplessness we hear about. Just maybe it isn't as painful as it looks.

Ton, I guess I meant he didn't look all wild eyed and upset, for a horse who (as Coby states) is not lunged in that position :rolleyes:

And I agree, you bring up a good point about learned helplessness! A much better way of explaining my point.:D

pophorse
Sep. 22, 2007, 06:11 PM
Doubtlessly Coby either thinks everyone is stupid in accepting her bogus press release or she is extremely naive herself. :eek:
In either case, it's cristal clear the pictures reflect a common practice with this pony, she just got caught while at it and is feeling the heat-as she well should be.
In my view it's brutal, ineffective and without excuse to train anything living in such a manner.
Shame on her! :mad:

Liz
Sep. 22, 2007, 06:20 PM
Coby says she stopped, corrected the side reins and continued longing the horse more correctly...why did the photographer not take these pictures? Why not give us a picture of the entire session? Why just pictures at the walk?

Sure there may be something that does not ring quite true about Coby's explination but I don't think the photographer is being totally up front either. I can't believe how quick people are to pass judgement.

I have a hard time believing a horse can be successful for as long as Power and Paint has been successful if he is fundamentaly unhappy (especially a stallion). Is it a method I would use? No. But I am not ready to pass judgement either.

Drvmb1ggl3
Sep. 22, 2007, 06:46 PM
Coby says she stopped, corrected the side reins and continued longing the horse more correctly...why did the photographer not take these pictures? Why not give us a picture of the entire session? Why just pictures at the walk?

Sure there may be something that does not ring quite true about Coby's explination but I don't think the photographer is being totally up front either. I can't believe how quick people are to pass judgement.



Man, you keep harping on about that. So what if she did stop and change the running reins? It doesn't change that a) It's generally considered bad training to have a horse cranked like that in the first place and b) she lied about it being an accident, there is no way you can "accidently" crank a horse like that and walk it around in a circle a few times before noticing. Which suggests that she knows that "a" is the case and was trying to BS her way out an embarrassing situation.
The photographer was/is under no obligation to show any other pics. What would the other pics prove or disprove anyway? So they would show that she lunged the pony correctly afterwards, and therfore what happened before was OK? What kind of bizarre logic is that?

lovaleo4
Sep. 22, 2007, 06:52 PM
SUPER CUTE!!!! love the color!

xQHDQ
Sep. 22, 2007, 07:17 PM
Is this really Rolkur? I thought Rolkur was over-round and low. This just looks like too tight side reins on a pony with a high neck set. The pony does not look happy but I would like to see more of the lesson before passing judgement.

dwblover
Sep. 22, 2007, 07:23 PM
I must agree with the majority here. I cannot imagine how a skilled trainer could not see that the reins were too tight at the halt. The pony had to walk off on the lunge before she noticed? I cannot possibly believe that. And I also have a very strong suspicion that if the photograper had been a bit sneakier, we would have seen a lot more pics of poor pony in trot and canter.

Gayla
Sep. 22, 2007, 07:31 PM
only the judges can stop this -- and only the FEI can make the judges stop this

one does not have to see the warmup to know which horses are subjected to this as it shows in their physical appearance (weird development of muscles in neck / poor development of muscles in hindquarters) as well as their way of going

if the FEI told judges that this must be marked down it would stop in an instant
Western pleasure horse have this type of muscling too.

arnika
Sep. 22, 2007, 07:32 PM
I wouldn't send her to hell.


Sorry eggy, just couldn't resist the opening.;) Perhaps just a few lunging sessions where she gets to wear the sidereins. Say............just as many as that poor pony has been through. Then we can call it even.:cool:


I do appreciate your links and am glad to know she isn't a complete jerk and horrible person, at least to other people. Apparently it's only the pain or feelings of animals she trains she doesn't worry about. By the way, is she sponsored by either of the companies listed in the links? I don't read Dutch and don't do babelfish so was just wondering if she was there to fulfill a sponsorship role.

Gayla
Sep. 22, 2007, 07:34 PM
Coby says she stopped, corrected the side reins and continued longing the horse more correctly...why did the photographer not take these pictures? Why not give us a picture of the entire session? Why just pictures at the walk?

Sure there may be something that does not ring quite true about Coby's explination but I don't think the photographer is being totally up front either. I can't believe how quick people are to pass judgement.

I have a hard time believing a horse can be successful for as long as Power and Paint has been successful if he is fundamentaly unhappy (especially a stallion). Is it a method I would use? No. But I am not ready to pass judgement either.

Wow! Now that is an idiotic explanation for those photos. Why would you not pass judgment? Because the horse does not deserve to be treated humanely? because classical dressage training doesn't deserve to be preserved? Because dressage is really about showing and having successful students and not about the training of the horse. Please inform me as to your reasoning, Liz. :mad:

Liz
Sep. 22, 2007, 07:39 PM
Get off it Gayla...look at her response...she admits this is bad training and she does not advocate this type of longing. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt. If this was such a god aweful session why are there only a few pictures of the horse at the walk???

mbm
Sep. 22, 2007, 07:49 PM
If this was such a god aweful session why are there only a few pictures of the horse at the walk???

because she saw someone taking pix? and decided to stop? and "fix" the situation?

i dont know.... but that would be my guess.....

jvanrens
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:06 PM
Get off it Gayla...look at her response...she admits this is bad training and she does not advocate this type of longing. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt. If this was such a god aweful session why are there only a few pictures of the horse at the walk???

As if she'd admit this is a regular part of her training program even if it is. :rolleyes: As to why there are only a few pics, who knows, maybe she saw the photographer and figured it' wasn't a good idea to continue, or she really is as clueless as that press release makes her sound. :eek: Honestly, how could anyone not notice those lines would have been tight on a Shetland pony? :confused: I can't picture any professional (or anyone with half a brain) being that distracted that they would not notice that the poor animals chest was on his chest. :no:

3horsemom
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:26 PM
this is probably a really dumb question, but isn't being "behind the vertical" a bad thing in dressage? do these rolkur trainers ride their tests in this position?

Bluey
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:27 PM
What is keeping those horses tied down like that from rearing up, when they can't find relief anywhere and are still made to go on?:confused:

Sannois
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:47 PM
I don't know what happened after those pictures was taken but MAYBE someone came to tell her to do something about that because some guy was taken pictures of her or whatever... I don't know.

But I think that this is so easy to say that she noticed the side reins setting was wrong, and she changed it. Well, YES it was. Come on, you can see how wrong it is when you put the chin of the pony on his neck!!! You don't need a couple of seconds to see that, you don't need minutes. You know it the moment you put the side reins so tight...

And even if it was only at the walk. Can you excuse that? Well... I can't :no:

Sport of Dressage I knew back in the 80s? Why has it become a gadget ridden torture test for the horses and quick fixes.
I am so saddened by it all. :(:no::confused:

monstrpony
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:50 PM
What is keeping those horses tied down like that from rearing up, when they can't find relief anywhere and are still made to go on?:confused:

The inherent kindness of many of the equine species.

Unfortunately.

Sannois
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:54 PM
The inherent kindness of many of the equine species.

Unfortunately.

And it just breaks my heart! :(

slc2
Sep. 22, 2007, 09:54 PM
i don't actually think it's all that painful. i've seen horses of nearly every type of riding put in the same position many times, and many times horses are put in close to the same position, and they don't rebel. i just don't think it is actually all that painful.

but i don't care. even if it is not painful, even if they can breathe, even if it doesn't do any permanent damage - i still don't want to train horses that way.

Kenike
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:01 PM
My guess (and that is all it is) as to why there is no further photographic evidence is that she saw the photographer and quit lunging altogether. I could very easily be wrong, but it's a guess. I've seen it done before (someone lunging in a not-so-popular way and quitting on the spot when people start looking....though I've NEVER seen side or slide reins placed like that on a horse or pony!)

I think she probably is a good person, but has some training practices that are just not good, got caught, went "oh crap," and is now trying like hell to make her reputation remain in good standing.

monstrpony
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:20 PM
i don't actually think it's all that painful. i've seen horses of nearly every type of riding put in the same position many times, and many times horses are put in close to the same position, and they don't rebel. i just don't think it is actually all that painful.

but i don't care. even if it is not painful, even if they can breathe, even if it doesn't do any permanent damage - i still don't want to train horses that way.

It doesn't have to be painful to cause a horse distress. Many horses react strongly to being confined in any way, whether pain is involved or not. But, alas, many just kindly go along with whatever is inflicted upon them and do their best to try to figure out what they're supposed to do with it.

I agree, much better not to use such a tactic. It has nothing to do with "training" anyway.

I find it difficult to believe that the pony wouldn't have reacted in SOME way if this had really been a simple "mistake". That's a pretty extreme position he's put in.

Dalfan
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:22 PM
I find it difficult to believe that the pony wouldn't have reacted in SOME way if this had really been a simple "mistake". That's a pretty extreme position he's put in.


It gives credence to the argument that the pony is very USED to this "training". I think her staement regarding a "one-off accident" is suspect as well.

J-Lu
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:37 PM
My question would be why the photographer didn't capture a photo of the pony lunging in the equipment? Could it be because it wasn't dramatic enough?

I won't pass judgement on this trainer because of this photo. There is probably no horse loving person that wouldn't cringe at the presented photos. Still, I am very much against these people going out with cameras on witch hunts of dressage riders being abusive.

I wish Erin would allow Theo back on the board to discuss this issue.

Coby is an international level dressage rider/trainer, meaning that she has trained for DECADES in dressage. The fact is, she DID longe this pony in even what *I* would know is a set-up that would put the pony's mouth at his chest. It would be obvious after 1 step. Pullleeezze! I don't know any - ANY - trainer that would make such a "mistake". The proof is in the photograph, whether or not it is pleasant to think it is true. And please don't think she didn't know she was being photographed.

J.

J-Lu
Sep. 22, 2007, 10:39 PM
i don't actually think it's all that painful. i've seen horses of nearly every type of riding put in the same position many times, and many times horses are put in close to the same position, and they don't rebel. i just don't think it is actually all that painful.

but i don't care. even if it is not painful, even if they can breathe, even if it doesn't do any permanent damage - i still don't want to train horses that way.

I think the jury is still out on alot of this post.

Jealoushe
Sep. 22, 2007, 11:21 PM
I have a hard time believing a horse can be successful for as long as Power and Paint has been successful if he is fundamentaly unhappy (especially a stallion). Is it a method I would use? No. But I am not ready to pass judgement either.

A good horse will try its heart out and do its job regardless how brutal its rider or trainer are. Perhaps thats why PaP is such a good pony.

arnika
Sep. 22, 2007, 11:48 PM
by Bluey
What is keeping those horses tied down like that from rearing up, when they can't find relief anywhere and are still made to go on?:confused:



Unfortunately I believe this lends credence to the thought that this pony has been lunged like this before. Most equines would be frantic to escape from no head/jaw movement allowed unless they had been tied down in increasing degrees over weeks/months. Either that, or PnP is a true saint and definitely deserves a better owner and trainer.

FancyFree
Sep. 23, 2007, 01:01 AM
Coby is an international level dressage rider/trainer, meaning that she has trained for DECADES in dressage. The fact is, she DID longe this pony in even what *I* would know is a set-up that would put the pony's mouth at his chest. It would be obvious after 1 step. Pullleeezze! I don't know any - ANY - trainer that would make such a "mistake". The proof is in the photograph, whether or not it is pleasant to think it is true. And please don't think she didn't know she was being photographed.

J.

I agree. I highly doubt that it was a mistake. How could his position go unnoticed by her? IMO, it was intentional. More importantly, how could someone who supposedly loves horses do that? But as others have pointed out, the pony didn't look fazed. I'd bet he's quite used to being cranked like that. Poor pony.

MagicRoseFarm
Sep. 23, 2007, 01:40 AM
Those photos are a testimonial to this pony's will for self preservation,,,

Any other horse I can think of would have thrown themselves down and committed suicide if restrained this way.

snoopy
Sep. 23, 2007, 01:23 PM
Those photos are a testimonial to this pony's will for self preservation,,,

Any other horse I can think of would have thrown themselves down and committed suicide if restrained this way.


mine surely would....My boys are very generous personalities and as such I would do nothing to take advantage of their kind nature...no matter what the "reward". :no:

stryder
Sep. 23, 2007, 01:55 PM
CVB says in her reply: "We allow the pony to walk a couple of seconds and change the lunge immediately so that it is in its normal position."

Really? In the first photo CVB and the student are at the pony's shoulder. We see the distance between them increase. CVB has the whip and line. There's at least one revolution, THEN photos of the student holding the whip and line.

How long would that take? Doesn't really matter to me if it's 2 minutes or 10, but it's absolutely more than "a couple of seconds." We aren't talking about uneven stirrup leathers that might take longer to perceive, we're seeing a pony with its head cranked down to its chest!

I vote with the BS crowd.

LarkspurCO
Sep. 23, 2007, 02:28 PM
you can't make a ligament contract, the definition of a ligament is that it does not contract.

No. Ligaments can and do stretch AND contract, though more slowly than muscles.


and this position doesn't keep the nuchal ligmanent 'in a state of constant contraction'.

It more likely keeps the nuchal ligament in a constant state of stretch.

Sannois
Sep. 23, 2007, 03:08 PM
Coby is an international level dressage rider/trainer, meaning that she has trained for DECADES in dressage. The fact is, she DID longe this pony in even what *I* would know is a set-up that would put the pony's mouth at his chest. It would be obvious after 1 step. Pullleeezze! I don't know any - ANY - trainer that would make such a "mistake". The proof is in the photograph, whether or not it is pleasant to think it is true. And please don't think she didn't know she was being photographed.

J.

she got caught with her pants down. The back peddling is even more pathetic. And as an international trainer and competitor One must wonder .. This was no one time oops mistake. that pony had been longed like that many a time. No horse will not give some reaction to that extreme confinement. I can have a young student hook up side reins and if they are too short they notice it without a step. Takes some work to crank them in that tight. I'd need more holes! :eek:

Ghazzu
Sep. 23, 2007, 03:23 PM
No. Ligaments can and do stretch AND contract, though more slowly than muscles.

It more likely keeps the nuchal ligament in a constant state of stretch.

Ligaments don't so much contract, as they cease being stretched.
And they have relatively little ability to stretch, for that matter.
There are no active contractile elements in ligaments.

Wimsyd
Sep. 23, 2007, 03:53 PM
I find it interesting in some photos Coby van Baleen is holding the lunge line and in others, the student is. Makes me think that this session went on longer than 30 seconds. I feel that is she really had an issue with the tight side reins, she would have immediately told her student to halt the horse, and I bet the student was more than capable of halting the pony herself (instead of having to hand over the lunge line to her.)

AZ Native
Sep. 23, 2007, 03:54 PM
He's not happy either.Sorry, can't seem to link it. I subscribe to his MSN group Horses and Dressage. This is the topic that showed up in my mail box this pm. Glad it's getting around.

blackhorsegirl
Sep. 23, 2007, 04:24 PM
What is sadder is that a junior is being taught this. This is someone who may use this "method" while Not under the eye of a professional. What do they call it, "a razor in the monkey's hand?"
Let the German's have their medals. They aren't worth it.

LarkspurCO
Sep. 23, 2007, 04:32 PM
Ligaments don't so much contract, as they cease being stretched.
And they have relatively little ability to stretch, for that matter.
There are no active contractile elements in ligaments.

I didn't say that ligaments contract immediately, but certainly they can and will contract over time, for various reasons. Ligaments stretch considerably for child birth, and contract again later.

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/roundligament.htm

Also,

http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/ligament_healing_characteristics

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109928896/ABSTRACT

http://www.med.unc.edu/ortho/research/abstract.html

http://www2.aaos.org/aaos/archives/acadnews/2000news/c1-15.htm

"The Ann Doner Vaughn Award will be presented to Laurence E. Dahners, MD, and Gayle E. Lester, PhD, for laboratory research confirming that ligaments grow and contract throughout the structure of the ligament and not just at the growth plates. This finding opens the way for researchers to devise ways to induce ligament growth in structures that are too tight (contracted) or to tighten tissues that are too lax, said Dr. Dahners, professor of orthopaedic surgery at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Another possible therapeutic value would be to prevent a joint from getting stiff after an injury or to prevent a joint from becoming too lax after a sprain."

Ghazzu
Sep. 23, 2007, 05:00 PM
I didn't say that ligaments contract immediately, but certainly they can and will contract over time, for various reasons. Ligaments stretch considerably for child birth, and contract again later.

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancyhealth/roundligament.htm

Also,

http://www.wheelessonline.com/ortho/ligament_healing_characteristics

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109928896/ABSTRACT

http://www.med.unc.edu/ortho/research/abstract.html

http://www2.aaos.org/aaos/archives/acadnews/2000news/c1-15.htm

"The Ann Doner Vaughn Award will be presented to Laurence E. Dahners, MD, and Gayle E. Lester, PhD, for laboratory research confirming that ligaments grow and contract throughout the structure of the ligament and not just at the growth plates. This finding opens the way for researchers to devise ways to induce ligament growth in structures that are too tight (contracted) or to tighten tissues that are too lax, said Dr. Dahners, professor of orthopaedic surgery at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. Another possible therapeutic value would be to prevent a joint from getting stiff after an injury or to prevent a joint from becoming too lax after a sprain."

You're doing several things here.
One is conflating the round ligament of the uterus in the human female with equine nuchal ligament. They are not very similar.

Anatomically speaking, the so-called round ligament of the uterus is not a true ligament.
By definition, ligaments connect bone to bone, not soft tissue structures to bone.

A second is equating some of the events of repair of injury with normal function.
"Contraction" of injured ligaments is a response to injury.

So, if you want to restrict your statement about ligaments contracting to those which are undergoing repair after being damaged, I'll agree with you.

However, if you want to aver that ligaments contract as a normal feature of their function, I have to disagree.

phattchik
Sep. 23, 2007, 05:09 PM
I didn't say that ligaments contract immediately, but certainly they can and will contract over time, for various reasons. Ligaments stretch considerably for child birth, and contract again later.


And I am guessing that the pony is just about as uncomfortable as I was when the Dr. said "OK, NOW PUSH":mad:

I hope this didn't go on long, but I too, find it hard to belive that it was an accident. I think any horse that suddenly found itself in "those" side reins would blowup and break some tack.

Having helped rehab a few horses from the "tie the head down" school of (non) horsemanship, this is not the way to ever lunge a horse for any reason. It's just plain cruel.

But, like many posters have already said, it really is up to the Judges. As long as controversial training methods are rewarded............

carolprudm
Sep. 23, 2007, 05:24 PM
Look how the poor pony has pulled the surcingle forward. Obviously they confused the side rein adjustment with the surcingle buckles.
When they cranked the sidereins tight they just thought they were tightening the girth

TNGFARM
Sep. 23, 2007, 06:05 PM
This is very sad. I don't care how many ribbons one wins with this method...................
it is absolutely wrong. No horse deserves this for any period of time!!!

sunnyfarm
Sep. 23, 2007, 06:21 PM
The medals and the ribbons are all tainted-it is sad that the competitors must wait for the judges to stop rewarding this. This is no longer 'a moment in time'. There is no justification, grey area, scientific explanation possible to explain this. It used to be called animal cruelty, plain and simple.

Liz
Sep. 23, 2007, 06:56 PM
Blackhorsegirl - I believe Coby is Dutch.....not German.

perpetual_novice
Sep. 23, 2007, 07:47 PM
...Let the German's have their medals. They aren't worth it.


Blackhorsegirl - I believe Coby is Dutch.....not German. :D

Biting tongue here... trying hard...

Must not mention stupid reality show, must not say it, arggg -- can't resist: anyone up for for a round of "Are You Smarter than a Fifth grader?" Dont they cover geography?

Anyway, please continue with the topic at hand. Just put my opinion in with the majority expressed so far. The pony is a saint.

Liz
Sep. 23, 2007, 08:08 PM
I don't get it.....Coby is not Dutch?

perpetual_novice
Sep. 23, 2007, 08:15 PM
I don't get it.....Coby is not Dutch?


No, she is Dutch.

I was referring to the comment by someone else that you corrected. ;) So just to clarify -- that Dutch pony is a saint.

Liz
Sep. 23, 2007, 08:19 PM
Thanks - hate to be compared to a 5th grader...I was about to pull out the atlas.

Pony Fixer
Sep. 23, 2007, 08:57 PM
Oh, I took it to mean that the Dutch should let the Germans have their medals rather than stoop to this level to beat them.

arnika
Sep. 23, 2007, 09:09 PM
That's how I took it also.

monstrpony
Sep. 23, 2007, 09:41 PM
Okay, so Coby and her student quickly saw that the longe was set up incorrectly and frantically fixed it :rolleyes:

So, who tacked the pony up with this arrangement in the first place :confused:??

petitefilly
Sep. 23, 2007, 09:51 PM
From the photgrapher on the site where the picture was posted:

Auteur: GL
Date: 22-09-07 18:18

"Reaction
In short, my reaction to the Swedish magazine comes down to the following. The fact is that the photographer took these pictures in the first minute of the lunge with Power and Point"
-> WRONG. I was passing in front of the paddock when I have been very chocked by your lunging, had time to go and park my car far away, to take my camera and to walk back up to the paddock in order to take the pictures. You know very well the following...

"as the pony is either standing or walking and he is not sweating from the exercise. In the pictures, both myself and my student are looking at the pony and immediately saw that the lunge was not established correctly".
-> WRONG

"We allow the pony to walk a couple of seconds and change the lunge immediately so that it is in its normal position. After that, we have been able to lunge the pony in a good way, resulting in the pony’s looseness with a beautiful posture".
-> WRONG

"Unfortunately, the photographer was not interested in this and did not make pictures of that, which I regret".
-> INCREDIBLE to dare to say so !

"and this was a one-off incident from which my student has learned and which lasted no longer than half a minute".
-> WRONG

Clarity
I hope that, by way of this letter, I have clarified the situation and the background of the pictures and our way of training. To be absolutely clear: it serves no purpose to lunge in this particular way, it was a one-off incident which was immediately corrected
-> WRONG

The photographer in the presence of which you have been very very embarassed.
Guillaume Levesque.

Sannois
Sep. 24, 2007, 08:21 AM
Okay, so Coby and her student quickly saw that the longe was set up incorrectly and frantically fixed it :rolleyes:

So, who tacked the pony up with this arrangement in the first place :confused:??

The pics hardly look like anything was done in a hurry. And what makes it worse! Who attaches the sidereins before they get in the lunging area.
Nope My guess is trainer cranked those suckers. LEts face it, it seems unanimous on here shes done it many times like this before, Pony is a long suffering saint and shes back peddling. Sad! :no:

Dalfan
Sep. 24, 2007, 08:30 AM
Isn't CvB a student of AvG and Sjef?

Notice she didn't say anything about that position for under saddle work.:no:

Rusty Stirrup
Sep. 24, 2007, 08:36 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjE3J9VxjfI

Funny how everyone thinks he is so lovely until the photos come out. And yes, many of the comments sound like they are from kids. When I first saw the tape I saw a horse that looked resigned to a life of work in rolkur (by no means the only one), but there's a lot of others out there that see a lovely ride. How can the judges make that call when they have to judge the horse in front of them for 6-7 minutes?

slc2
Sep. 24, 2007, 08:39 AM
I hardly think, though, that this is something only dressage trainers might do. I've seen gaited, western and just about any other type of horse, restrained to an extreme degree, one way or another. And yes, most of the time, the horses just accept it. This is ESPECIALLY common with ponies as the trainer has to be sure the pony performs well and is controllable by a child.

Now...THAT child rider is not exactly the average american kid. she has experienced experts training her. she's not in much danger of falling off if the horse sneezes.

we may not like some of their techniques, but they CAN bloody well ride dressage, and they DO know how to produce strong, secure riders, which is more than i can say for the results a lot of american teachers produce. in this case, i don't really think it's mostly done to allow the child to control the pony, but to supple him up so he WINS. like many ponies he has s thick little throatlatch. i would just prefer they achieved their suppling some other way.

now to the whole thing of controlling a pony.

how about the USA? I think this stuff actually happens MORE here, because trainers have got kids that have NO BUSINESS showing, that are so loose in the tack they're dangerous, and if the pony SNEEZED they would fall off.

and i think that while you all LOVE to point fingers at people in europe, you know very well that trainer joe down the road is doing EXACTLY the same thing with his hunter pony, or his little arabian, or his gaited horse, or his western horse. i've been around long enough to know that all this finger pointing at europeans is laughable - you all know that plenty of stuff like this is going on right down your own street.

i don't need to do much to find this going on here. i can just drive down the road, and see the little western pleasure arabian with his head on his chest, JERK JERK JERK on that big old curb bit, or the hunter with his head between his knees on the 'chambon', learning to be 'more consistent'. or the gaited horse trussed up in the 'headsetting rig' like a thanksgiving turkey, head up so high his chin is on his NECK, not his chest.

why don't the horses fight back? I tend to think that's NOT because they are 'so defeated' or 'broken spirited', or 'used to it', because it isn't done every single minute in most cases, and I knew some of the horses personally and they were anything but 'broken spirited', but simply because it doesn't actually hurt that much. That doesn't matter to me, though, no debate of whether they can breathe, whether it hurts, NONE of that makes a bit of difference to me, because i've already decided, without needing any other ammunition or arguments, that it isn't how i want to train my horses. it is just too extreme.

and i think when all the finger pointing, name calling and 'Coby BAD' stuff is done, someone is going to start to realize that this IS going on down the road, at your barn, and anyplace else - in AMERICA.

you guys so love to point the finger at the top riders in europe, don't you. because then you can absolve yoruself of all responsibility for dealing with what's going on in YOUR community.

the only thing that you can control, is how YOU train YOUR horses and who YOU choose to train with. you can't make other people agree with you on how to train a horse, and you can't make other people not do certain things. all you can do is make decisions for your own horses. and that is all that really matters.

monstrpony
Sep. 24, 2007, 09:27 AM
But in my mind, it's worse for the top riders in Europe to be legitimizing this kind of training, than it is for joe-WP-trainer down the road, who, we would hope, the judges will put out of business pretty soon, anyway.

Sigh. I just re-read that and realized that the whole thing is hopeless. I'm going back in my hole, where I treat my horses somewhat reasonably. Head back in the sand. I give up. :(:(

carolprudm
Sep. 24, 2007, 09:35 AM
Seems like the pony's owner is awefully quiet on this issue

Drvmb1ggl3
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:01 AM
I hardly think, though, that this is something only dressage trainers might do. I've seen gaited, western and just about any other type of horse, restrained to an extreme degree, one way or another. And yes, most of the time, the horses just accept it. This is ESPECIALLY common with ponies as the trainer has to be sure the pony performs well and is controllable by a child.

Now...THAT child rider is not exactly the average american kid. she has experienced experts training her. she's not in much danger of falling off if the horse sneezes.

we may not like some of their techniques, but they CAN bloody well ride dressage, and they DO know how to produce strong, secure riders, which is more than i can say for the results a lot of american teachers produce. in this case, i don't really think it's mostly done to allow the child to control the pony, but to supple him up so he WINS. like many ponies he has s thick little throatlatch. i would just prefer they achieved their suppling some other way.

now to the whole thing of controlling a pony.

how about the USA? I think this stuff actually happens MORE here, because trainers have got kids that have NO BUSINESS showing, that are so loose in the tack they're dangerous, and if the pony SNEEZED they would fall off.

and i think that while you all LOVE to point fingers at people in europe, you know very well that trainer joe down the road is doing EXACTLY the same thing with his hunter pony, or his little arabian, or his gaited horse, or his western horse. i've been around long enough to know that all this finger pointing at europeans is laughable - you all know that plenty of stuff like this is going on right down your own street.

i don't need to do much to find this going on here. i can just drive down the road, and see the little western pleasure arabian with his head on his chest, JERK JERK JERK on that big old curb bit, or the hunter with his head between his knees on the 'chambon', learning to be 'more consistent'. or the gaited horse trussed up in the 'headsetting rig' like a thanksgiving turkey, head up so high his chin is on his NECK, not his chest.

why don't the horses fight back? I tend to think that's NOT because they are 'so defeated' or 'broken spirited', or 'used to it', because it isn't done every single minute in most cases, and I knew some of the horses personally and they were anything but 'broken spirited', but simply because it doesn't actually hurt that much. That doesn't matter to me, though, no debate of whether they can breathe, whether it hurts, NONE of that makes a bit of difference to me, because i've already decided, without needing any other ammunition or arguments, that it isn't how i want to train my horses. it is just too extreme.

and i think when all the finger pointing, name calling and 'Coby BAD' stuff is done, someone is going to start to realize that this IS going on down the road, at your barn, and anyplace else - in AMERICA.

you guys so love to point the finger at the top riders in europe, don't you. because then you can absolve yoruself of all responsibility for dealing with what's going on in YOUR community.

the only thing that you can control, is how YOU train YOUR horses and who YOU choose to train with. you can't make other people agree with you on how to train a horse, and you can't make other people not do certain things. all you can do is make decisions for your own horses. and that is all that really matters.

LOL.
I guess it was only a matter of time before you did the customary break with the general consensus.

Ah, the proper order of the cosmos has been restored.

ideayoda
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:14 AM
How can the judges make that call when they have to judge the horse in front of them for 6-7 minutes? They can look at purity of stride, whether the poll is not only the highest point, but the face is slightly in front of the vertical, they can look at the tempo, then can look at whether the hindquarters are lowered, they can look at whether the neck is shortened, etc etc. The affects are clear, they are just ignored. Judges can quit playing the truckling submission with flash game, and look for horses which have relaxation and trust as the keystones of training. There can be limits to time/bearing (according to rules) in the warmups.

NoDQhere
Sep. 24, 2007, 11:45 AM
How can the judges make that call when they have to judge the horse in front of them for 6-7 minutes? They can look at purity of stride, whether the poll is not only the highest point, but the face is slightly in front of the vertical, they can look at the tempo, then can look at whether the hindquarters are lowered, they can look at whether the neck is shortened, etc etc. The affects are clear, they are just ignored. Judges can quit playing the truckling submission with flash game, and look for horses which have relaxation and trust as the keystones of training. There can be limits to time/bearing (according to rules) in the warmups.

You are 100% right on! On another thread, someone mentioned that General Burton could tell a draw reined horse before it came down center line. Now surely he isn't the only one?? Heck, I'm not even a Judge or a BNT and I can pick them out.

We need to "police" our sport and take responsibility for some of the crap going on "behind closed doors". And the Judges need to stop rewarding the results of what is going on behind those closed doors :sigh:

shadowdancer
Sep. 24, 2007, 12:07 PM
Right or wrong, rollkur is here to stay. It has become an accepted way of training here in Europe. The debate continues, but the practice stays.

Red Barn
Sep. 24, 2007, 12:59 PM
Right or wrong, rollkur is here to stay. It has become an accepted way of training here in Europe. The debate continues, but the practice stays.

I'm pretty sure this is true - and no doubt true for the United States as well.

What I keep wondering, though, is WHY? If all right-thinking people agree (or pretend to agree) that this technique serves no purpose, then why persist in it, even at the risk of reputation and good name?

Obviously is does serve some purpose, and since the purported one - that it "supples" the horse somehow - makes absolutely no sense, I have to wonder what the reason might be really?

The most obvious answer is that methods like this produce horses that are easily ridden in a pretty "frame" by less than stellar riders, simply because the horse is rendered physically incapable of moving in any other way. (Like WP horses with their heads tied down, or TWHs in padded shoes.)

This might explain why it's used on a pony trained to be ridden by a child, or on a horse trained for an unskilled but ambitious adult with a great deal of money. It doesn't explain, though, why riders as accomplihed as CVB and AVG would use it on their own horses.

Unless, of course, one assumes that the original principles of dressage have become outmoded in competition, and characature has really and truly become the new ideal.

slc2
Sep. 24, 2007, 01:22 PM
It is only 'here to stay' in the sense that SOME people will be training that way. you can always find someone who trains the way you want. i did; you can too.

at the same time, i think that people do it because it DOES supple the horses. no, it has nothing to do with making the horses easy to ride or submissive.

i don't think the judges are all evil, blind, or corrupt; i think those of you who believe the judges are turning a blind eye to obvious faults need to have those judges come here and speak, and stop picking on people who can't defend themselves and aren't here. at least hear what they have to say.

i think, after having ridden some hyperflexion/rollkur trained horses, that the use of that method is only as good as the rest of the rider's training and methods.

i do actually believe that some people DO use the method skillfully, and DO supple the horses with it.

i don't believe that has to involve tying a pony's head up so his chin is on his chest, and in fact, from what i saw, though it was training most people here would call 'wrong' and 'rollkur' and 'behind the vertical', it DID benefit....SOME....horses - not because of differences in the horses. but differences in the riders.

comparing just 2 very opposite horses trained that way, horses which i tried out in holland, i found that ONE of them was behind the bit, stilted in his movements, stiff in the back, and with a very improper contact and stride.

there was absolutely nothing in my hands, and with that kind of 'back of the bit' neck, his back was also stiff and stilted. after a few minutes riding, i had to get off - my old back with bad disks immediately betrays any problems in a horse's back...this horse's back was moving, ostensibly moving correctly, but like all horses who don't properly take the bit, it was a miserable thing to sit on.

the OTHER one, however, was just plain old damned supple. more supple than any other horse i've ever ridden. forget the stiff back and poll. this horse was very, very good, not a single trace of resistance or stiffness. your aids would go through this horse like a warm knife thru butter, not one single point of blockage or resistance. for someone who has ridden some ungymnasticized horses who 'just did tricks', getting on this horse was an amazing shock - a pleasant one.

he had a very powerful activity in his stride, was very, very correct in his contact, a perfectly correct back movement, and extremely happy, forward and eager in his work.

he was VERY strong, it had nothing, absolutely NOTHING to do with 'making the horse go in a pretty frame for a less than stellar rider'. that, red barn, is where you're wrong. it simply does not do that.

you want a rocket sled? straighten your horse and supple it and send it forward. the power will be unbelievable.

in fact, the horse had SO much power and SO much suppleness that he was full of impulsion and it was like riding a dream horse, a horse that you say 'please' to and he laughs and says, 'just watch me'.

that dream horse, at least for me, is not 'easy for a less than stellar rider', in fact, he was an INCREDIBLE handful to ride, because he was so strong and so supple. it was like being swept along by an incredible dancing partner who can outmove everyone else, and who one barely can keep up with on the dance floor.

'easy to ride'? not on your life. it's like unblocking everything in the horse that is preventing him from performing well.

Red Barn
Sep. 24, 2007, 01:39 PM
Okay, slc. If CVB's methods produce such utterly fabulous results, why DON'T you train your own horses this way?

That Dream Horse of yours sounds pretty memorable in all his cosmic perfection!

Yet you've said that you SHUN her methods at least six times in the course of this thread. . . so, um . . . HUH?

Kenike
Sep. 24, 2007, 03:13 PM
SLC is dead on in that dressage isn't the only discipline that trains in ways that are restraining and, well, wrong! But that still doesn't make it right, despite being accepted in the communities they exist.

There have been comments on the pony's eye, and I finally got the guts up to give my opinion on it. To me, this pony is NOT happy. He's doing his job, but he's dull in the eye, just concentrating on getting the work done. In the lunging pics his eyes are CLOSED in a number of the pictures! Okay, allowing for a blink, but most horses don't blink as much as PaP is showing here. Along with that, his gaits don't seem very expressive to me. The best he looked (as far as happy and expressive, not in the element of movement) was the walk on the loose rein. Now, I'm not a dressage person (though I've taken lessons, audited shows and clinics, and paid some attention), but even *I* know that a happy horse will show expression in movement and a bright eye when not just merely doing a job. When forced into something, that expression and brightness disappears.

What does that have to do with anything here? It just is my take on the fact the pony has been put through training, such as the pictures display, that is heartbreaking for many, many years. He's such a lovely animal, with a tail to die for, but he just isn't truly happy any longer. How sad.

slc2
Sep. 24, 2007, 03:39 PM
"Yet you've said that you SHUN her methods at least six times in the course of this thread. . . so, um . . . HUH?"

that's correct. absolutely.

I get on a horse that was trained that way, and he is fabulous. absolutely fabulous. and i don't train my horse's that way. that's correct.

i can also unknowingly get on horses that were jugged, or trained with huge trailers on their shoes, and have a great ride. am i sure those methods are in the best interests of the horse? no, i would not be.

and by 'shun her methods', i assume you mean when i said, 'i don't want to train my horses that way', which refers to the picture of the body with his chin on his chest. and that would be correct. i don't want to train my horse or pony by putting him on a longe line with side reins short enough to put his chin on his chest. most definitely.

let me ask you something. have you ever seen some great results, but said, 'i just am not really all that sure i want to get my results that way'? further, have you ever seen two people purport to use EXACTLY the same method, and one have horrible results, and the other great results?

wouldn't you consider that there might be some other factor going on, than just that one training method? or that it may not be all that easy to use that training method, without causing problems? wouldn't you wait and see what happens, and gather more information, before concluding anything either way?

i mean, all the emotion aside; let's say there wasn't anything remotely abusive or uncomfortable with the method - if one person got greaet results and a nother very poor results, wouldn't you wait and try to find out why? and if there were questions about abuse or pain, wouldn't you wait...MORE?

that's how i feel about it. and will continue to, til i find out what made the one horse feel like a dead stick of wood, and the other feel like a great, great ride. til i know that and understand it very fully, i am avoiding any sort of extreme methods related to rollkur or anything similar. and even when i know it i may still not be comfortable with it.

my point is, that horse that went great, that answers the question of 'but WHY do people DO that!!!'. it answers the question exactly. it supples the horse. damn well, or so it would seem.

do i want to train that way? no.

vineyridge
Sep. 24, 2007, 05:20 PM
If the tack is illegal and this is an FEI level competition, it'll be interesting to see if the FEI files charges against her for intentional abuse.

Personally I hope they do, as the Photographer will have a chance to tell his whole story and any other witnesses can step forward. Then CvB's name will either be permanently besmirched or she'll be completely cleared.

Maybe she'll ask for an FEI investigation. You think? ;)

carolprudm
Sep. 24, 2007, 05:59 PM
If the tack is illegal and this is an FEI level competition, it'll be interesting to see if the FEI files charges against her for intentional abuse.

Personally I hope they do, as the Photographer will have a chance to tell his whole story and any other witnesses can step forward. Then CvB's name will either be permanently besmirched or she'll be completely cleared.

Maybe she'll ask for an FEI investigation. You think? ;)
I for one would like to see the time stamp on those photos

Sannois
Sep. 24, 2007, 06:13 PM
LOL.
I guess it was only a matter of time before you did the customary break with the general consensus.

Ah, the proper order of the cosmos has been restored.

reading that as well. That sounds more like slc2 I was surprised when she was also dissaproving. Ah well, Some things never change. I am surprised at how some on here are so quick to dismiss this as a mere mistake. How naive does one have to be. The only mistake was that she was caught! It also surprise me at the responses that say oh let it go, it was a one time thing.. Pfffft!
:lol: Next time she will make sure no one has a Camera nearby. :yes:

kellyb
Sep. 24, 2007, 06:15 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjE3J9VxjfI

Funny how everyone thinks he is so lovely until the photos come out. And yes, many of the comments sound like they are from kids. When I first saw the tape I saw a horse that looked resigned to a life of work in rolkur (by no means the only one), but there's a lot of others out there that see a lovely ride. How can the judges make that call when they have to judge the horse in front of them for 6-7 minutes?

yikes, the rider almost crashed into that other person 2-3 times!

Sannois
Sep. 24, 2007, 06:18 PM
"Yet you've said that you SHUN her methods at least six times in the course of this thread. . . so, um . . . HUH?"

that's correct. absolutely.

I get on a horse that was trained that way, and he is fabulous. absolutely fabulous. and i don't train my horse's that way. that's correct.

i can also unknowingly get on horses that were jugged, or trained with huge trailers on their shoes, and have a great ride. am i sure those methods are in the best interests of the horse? no, i would not be.

and by 'shun her methods', i assume you mean when i said, 'i don't want to train my horses that way', which refers to the picture of the body with his chin on his chest. and that would be correct. i don't want to train my horse or pony by putting him on a longe line with side reins short enough to put his chin on his chest. most definitely.

let me ask you something. have you ever seen some great results, but said, 'i just am not really all that sure i want to get my results that way'? further, have you ever seen two people purport to use EXACTLY the same method, and one have horrible results, and the other great results?

wouldn't you consider that there might be some other factor going on, than just that one training method? or that it may not be all that easy to use that training method, without causing problems? wouldn't you wait and see what happens, and gather more information, before concluding anything either way?

i mean, all the emotion aside; let's say there wasn't anything remotely abusive or uncomfortable with the method - if one person got greaet results and a nother very poor results, wouldn't you wait and try to find out why? and if there were questions about abuse or pain, wouldn't you wait...MORE?

that's how i feel about it. and will continue to, til i find out what made the one horse feel like a dead stick of wood, and the other feel like a great, great ride. til i know that and understand it very fully, i am avoiding any sort of extreme methods related to rollkur or anything similar. and even when i know it i may still not be comfortable with it.

my point is, that horse that went great, that answers the question of 'but WHY do people DO that!!!'. it answers the question exactly. it supples the horse. damn well, or so it would seem.

do i want to train that way? no.
You know the proper way and would not use these methods, why do you think the quick way is ok if it produces brillance? Is it really Brillance?? Is it really Dressage the way it was meant to be? To me true Dressage riders and trainers will not be sucked into those methods for the sake of ribbons and medals. It tarnishes the sport, And I believe deep down inside you feel the same although for some reason you are semi condoning it. Confusing to say the least!
:confused:

horselips
Sep. 24, 2007, 08:03 PM
Sport of Dressage I knew back in the 80s? Why has it become a gadget ridden torture test for the horses and quick fixes.
I am so saddened by it all. :(:no::confused:

And this is also why I'm hanging on to those 21 issues of
mid-to-late 70's Dressage & CT magazines that I still have.
I can recall when Dressage was a kinder, gentler; more artistic kind of sport.
Not all $$$$, ribbons,ribbons,ribbons.

slc2
Sep. 24, 2007, 08:43 PM
LOL. That really was the era, wasn't it. That was the magazine where anyone could spout off about 'classical principles'. much of it sounded good on the surface....LOL.

I thought the eighties was the era of the gadget and the quick fix in dressage. At least, that sure was the way it looked. The eighties in the USA was a period in which trainers who just did tricks, and did not gymnasticize horses, flourished, when trainers were so few that they did not have to to compete with more classical, correct trainers who got the horses more supple, forward and created a better connection. Nor did trainers have to compete with foreign trainers, there were far fewer foreign trainers coming over here. I thought much of the teaching here was bizarre, a mixture of rein aids even the instructors did not understand, very little instruction in purity of gaits or straightness, just tricks, tricks, tricks and a TON of meaningless platitudes. Sure there were good people around but nobody seemed to want to listen to them! I didn't see it as a great time at all, I still see many people from that era and they are now having a VERY hard time hanging onto a thread of legitimacy.

As far as methods, there were bad methods in those days too. A horse could have its head bent around to the rider's knee to 'supple' it, I was practically assaulted by a woman who insisted draw reins were THE thing and i should not condemn horses with broken necks 'until i tried it and felt how cool it feels', and horses could be ridden in a very flat, high headed, ungymnasticized position. Trainers who today have gotten smart and are teaching stretching were in those days saying, 'he can stretch after, while he's eating his damn hay'.

As far as competitive dressage, there were some great riders that were fantastic to watch, just as there are now. There were problems then, there are problems now.

In conversations like this, it is an era about 20 yrs ago, that is always when things were ok. In the eighties, people probably lamented the passing of the sixties, in the sixties, etc.

slc2
Sep. 24, 2007, 09:18 PM
You know the proper way and would not use these methods, why do you think the quick way is ok if it produces brillance? Is it really Brillance?? Is it really Dressage the way it was meant to be? To me true Dressage riders and trainers will not be sucked into those methods for the sake of ribbons and medals. It tarnishes the sport, And I believe deep down inside you feel the same although for some reason you are semi condoning it. Confusing to say the least!
--
Sannois, if I discussed why serial killers kill, you would probably be shrieking that I condone murder, LOL.

Guess what? If I do not want to respond as rabidly as you, I am still a human being. And I am not going to bow to your constant pressure to respond exactly as you do to every issue. I do have a right to my own opinions. YOU find it 'semi condoning'? Guess what? If I chose to 'semi condone' this it would be my right to do so. But the fact is, I am not 'semi condoning'.

You will notice, Sannois, that I never suggested this method produces 'brilliance', false or otherwise.

And I have explained many, many, many times, mostly to you, and you have 'demanded' the same question from me over, and over, and over. and i have answered many times. why do people do this. you have been told dozens of times. Why do I 'condone' this. I don't 'condone' this. I don't condone a LOT of things people do.

In your world, things may be so that you NEVER think about something except to scream, 'i love it!' or 'i hate it'. i'm not like that. first of all, i don't 'hate' a training method or the people who use it. i feel that's a waste of energy no matter what the subject is. i may use it or not, and even if i don't use it, even if i find it very incorrect, i am STILL going to analyze it, and find out what people say about it, good and BAD. it is simply not enough for me to say i hate it or i love it. that is not the way i think. i want to know why people use the method, what they see in it, what other options there are, and what the pros and cons of THAT are.

for your information, 'suppling' horses has been something that ALWAYS has brought some people to extreme methods. and not just competitive riders, but all kinds of dressage riders. a few decades horse's heads were on the rider's knee, now they are on the chest - is one so different from the other? is a 'classical' trainer who puts the horse's head on his saddle pad THAT much better than a 'competitive' trainer who puts the horse's head on his chest? the trainers pooh poohing rolkur have their own little skeletons in their own little closets.

What is 'brilliance'? What do you mean by that word? A horse that lifts its feet higher than the horses you sell? no? then define it. what is 'brilliance'. define it specifically, please.

For many, many years, dressage horses have been selected for natural 'brilliance'. The greatest riders of the eighties, sixties, whatever, selected horses for 'brilliance', unashamedly.

The term, at least when I use it, means the horses move energetically, using all the joints in their bodies, their shoulders, hips, back, knees, hocks, stifles, everything, in a very loose, powerful, athletic motion.

A young horse who shows 'brilliance' shows a natural freedom of motion, balance and energy that is above and beyond what other horses have inside of them.

At times, that 'brilliance' is going to result in a horse that can be tense, excitable, or completely 'overdo', like Farbenfroh. The kind of soul a horse has that can be 'brilliant', that WANTS to be brilliant, is not a pedestrian sort of soul.

'Brilliance', to me, is this freedom of motion, completely unconstrained, and the horse having a natural balance and proportions of mass of his parts that allows him to balance and use himself with perfect freedom. If a training method is correct, it allows all the brilliance the horse is naturally capable of, to be expressed.

For example, if a horse did a half pass with his legs shuffling along, taking small steps, with little crossing, and no spring, bounce or suspension, he would receive an adequate score. If he were to have more length of step, more crossover (Collection) and more suspension, he would be getting a better score. And if he showed brilliance, he would be showing extra freedom of movement, extra suspension, with longer, higher, free-er steps.

'Brilliance', as I think of it, is not possible without technical correctness. It is also not possible without natural abilities. It is a combination of both, like taking sugar and flour and making something extra special with it - a souffle or cake. The technical excellence exists for one purpose, to allow a horse to appear as beautiful and natural under saddle as he would as a youngster, at his lightest, freest and most agile. That is to me, 'brilliance'. It is without any doubt, a goal of the best and most classical dressage.

egontoast
Sep. 25, 2007, 07:02 AM
I guess that's a very long way of saying you think the lungeing technique shown in the photos is OK (although you wouldn't use it ). Otherwise why would you type all that stuff about souls and brilliance on this particular thread.

Rusty Stirrup
Sep. 25, 2007, 07:39 AM
"Brillance" in regard to horses was always synonymous with Saddlebreds. If it is now the goal of dressage horses, it only shows me how much things have changed.

Bogey2
Sep. 25, 2007, 07:57 AM
I guess that's a very long way of saying you think the lungeing technique shown in the photos is OK (although you wouldn't use it ). Otherwise why would you type all that stuff about souls and brilliance on this particular thread.



thank goodness someone posted the crib notes....I am in a hurry this morning!:lol:

slc2
Sep. 25, 2007, 08:12 AM
no, not true. i didn't say that, and i don't believe it. just because i am not foaming at the mouth screaming, 'kill coby', you want to pick on me, fine, go ahead.

i do not define 'brilliance' as being 'something saddlebreds do'. brilliance is the extra freedom of the paces that is a part of the most classical dressage.

i do not feel it is hectic, tense, flinging, forced motions. if that is what you define as 'what saddlebreds do', there certainly will be some saddlebred people checking into this thread with great fury :)

egontoast
Sep. 25, 2007, 09:46 AM
i do not feel it is hectic, tense, flinging, forced motions. if that is what you define as 'what saddlebreds do', there certainly will be some saddlebred people checking into this thread with great fury :)

Where did I say that? Nowhere. Never said it. Quote please.


just because i am not foaming at the mouth screaming, 'kill coby', you want to pick on me, fine, go ahead.



Again, where did I say that? Nowhere. Never. Quote please.

You seem to be foaming at the mouth,yourself, though.

Guess what slc, you are not the only person who has an individual opinion.

Are you crazy or just weird?:confused: Get some help maybe.

Rusty Stirrup
Sep. 25, 2007, 09:49 AM
SLC wrote. "no, not true. i didn't say that, and i don't believe it. just because i am not foaming at the mouth screaming, 'kill coby', you want to pick on me, fine, go ahead.

i do not define 'brilliance' as being 'something saddlebreds do'. brilliance is the extra freedom of the paces that is a part of the most classical dressage.

i do not feel it is hectic, tense, flinging, forced motions. if that is what you define as 'what saddlebreds do', there certainly will be some saddlebred people checking into this thread with great fury"


Where did I mention anything about tense, flinging, forced motions? Many on this board know I used to rub Saddlebreds and LOVE the breed. My point was that judging is based on different criteria. Dressage used to be about training, not about "filling" the showring.

vineyridge
Sep. 26, 2007, 01:36 PM
I emailed the FEI to see if they were looking into the incident, and got this form letter back.

Thank you for your mail.
Rest assure that this serious issue has received our fullest attention. We
are currently looking into it in detail.
Best regards,
Robert Vincent Johanson
Vaulting, Pony Rider's & Children's Department


Are the rules for equipment at the children's-pony level any different from the adult dressage equipment rules? Anyone know?

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 26, 2007, 01:50 PM
Funny you guys mention the ASB's since thats what I think of when I see alot of the hidden dressage training & trainers. My trainer doesnt train this way but I had to look long and hard to find one that could ride a horse up into the bridle without all the force and fight. My first couple of attempts were all bind and grind and bitting up. :(

Pony Fixer
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:11 PM
Funny you guys mention the ASB's since thats what I think of when I see alot of the hidden dressage training & trainers. My trainer doesnt train this way but I had to look long and hard to find one that could ride a horse up into the bridle without all the force and fight. My first couple of attempts were all bind and grind and bitting up. :(

Are you kidding? What exactly is "hidden dressage training"?

I have trained all over the east coast from no-names to BNTs. I have never yet met a trainer (uh, trainer, not "wanna be") who recommended "bind and grind and bitting up".

And if you are referring to rollkur being that, then you don't understand that as well.

I agree that the photos of Coby, et al, and other RK photos have seemed extreme. But I still reserve judgement, and really have no opinion of it as a training method, per se, because I have never seen it in person, and never met a "real" trainer who employs it. I suspect 90% of the posters here are in my boat as well.

And before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, no, I don't think what is shown in those photos is right, correct, ethical, whatever. But I also don't know if that is really (intended) rollkur, either.

cinder88
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:31 PM
So, if it wasn't done to act as rolkur..then what was it? JUst plain old torture?

My trainer has travelled with an Olympic team and he has stories of warm ups and "secret" warm ups that he has watched that would make your hair curl.

This isn't that unusual, no matter what we'd like to think.

And, if were an American or a Canadian, I'm sure people would be JUST as up in arms about it, so the theory that we are "picking on Europeans" doesn't hold up for me.

Cinder

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:54 PM
I have seen several very good trainers put horses in the pessoa or bitting horses to their hocks yikes! Nobody has the you know whats to say a darn thing about it so its common place!

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:57 PM
Are you kidding? What exactly is "hidden dressage training"?

I have trained all over the east coast from no-names to BNTs. I have never yet met a trainer (uh, trainer, not "wanna be") who recommended "bind and grind and bitting up".

And if you are referring to rollkur being that, then you don't understand that as well.I agree that the photos of Coby, et al, and other RK photos have seemed extreme. But I still reserve judgement, and really have no opinion of it as a training method, per se, because I have never seen it in person, and never met a "real" trainer who employs it. I suspect 90% of the posters here are in my boat as well.

And before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, no, I don't think what is shown in those photos is right, correct, ethical, whatever. But I also don't know if that is really (intended) rollkur, either.



Call it what it you like its bitting up either in your hands or on the lunge. Its not allowing the horse out of the space you put him in. Its a fixed position or semi fixed position. My friends will tell you I have done alot of disciplines and I call it like I see it k.

hitchinmygetalong
Sep. 26, 2007, 05:04 PM
My friends will tell you I have done alot of disciplines and I call it like I see it k.

Do you walk up to these trainers and "call it like you see it"? Do you go to local shows and clinics and riding association meetings and "call it like you see it"? Or do you just "call it like I see it" here, or with your friends?

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 26, 2007, 05:06 PM
Do you walk up to these trainers and "call it like you see it"? Do you go to local shows and clinics and riding association meetings and "call it like you see it"? Or do you just "call it like I see it" here, or with your friends?

I think youve got me wrong! I meant I call it like I see it as in I see alot of this in dressage and I say I see alot of this in dressage!


I dont think Im gonna call trainers out that people cont to pay for these kind of results! Not my J O B

hitchinmygetalong
Sep. 26, 2007, 05:24 PM
Not my J O B

Whose job is it, then?

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 26, 2007, 05:30 PM
The owners of the Horse! If I cant call animal control about it then what! Go and have a peeing match. Not my cup o tea!

mp
Sep. 26, 2007, 06:40 PM
Go and have a peeing match. Not my cup o tea!

What an unfortunate juxtaposition of cliches.

Pony Fixer
Sep. 26, 2007, 10:25 PM
I have seen several very good trainers put horses in the pessoa or bitting horses to their hocks yikes! Nobody has the you know whats to say a darn thing about it so its common place!

If someone yanked and spanked my horse, I'd rip them right off the saddle. I have plenty of cojones, athankyouverymuch.

You seem to be saying we are all turning a blind eye to this overwhelming rollkur phenomenon. What? It is not COMMONPLACE to train this way. That would imply that at least 51% of all training methods involve a big bit and a cranked head. 'Fraid it ain't so. That's not to say there aren't the dubious and diabolical out there, but give me a break!

And yes, I know even the "big boys" sometimes do what it takes to win. As a volunteer at a CDI this season, my entire JOB was to police the warmup rings because some bad ju-ju had gone down the previous day. (And not rollkur, btw)

I guess my whole problem with the rollkur debate (and I am not referring to this specific incident), is that I am completely UNknowledgeable about it, other than the reactionary claims I have read. There has never been a constructive debate on it on this BB (to my knowledge). And, I would guess, that most people here are not TRULY "experts" on it, either. I just like to form an opinion based on first hand knowledge rather than photos on "natural" dressage websites and rants from amateurs (ie, not trainers) who say it is nothing more than crank and spank. There MUST be more to it than that or it wouldn't be so SUCCESSFULLY used by AVG and others, and it would be banned by the FEI (and they have made a statement, and it was basically on the fence).

Liz
Sep. 26, 2007, 10:45 PM
.

slc2
Sep. 27, 2007, 12:11 AM
i think about this along similar lines to pony fixer.

MeredithsMama
Sep. 27, 2007, 11:55 AM
haha...I wonder where they're sent.... ;)

To the United States. :yes:

BEARCAT
Sep. 27, 2007, 02:57 PM
Here's the latest reply from the photographer. Posted today in reply to someone asking him to post the timing on his pictures

"Oui, mais aucun intérêt en ce qui me concerne car je n'ai pas pris de photos au début et puis d'autres à la fin (je ne sais même pas quand la fin a eu lieu car je suis parti avant), mais toutes en l'espace d'une ou deux minutes. Mon but n'était pas de montrer que ce travail avait duré tant de temps : je n'étais pas en train de constituer de preuve pour quoi que ce soit !!! Mettez-vous à ma place : j'ai juste été très choqué de ce que j'ai vu tout à fait par hasard et mon reflexe a juste été de saisir mon appareil et de prendre quelques clichés. Ce n'est que devant la réaction de l'entraîneur et de la maman de la cavalière...que j'ai commencé à réaliser qu'ils n'étaient pas très fiers, mais j'étais loin d'imaginer que ça allait faire toutes ces histoires qui commencent à m'agacer. Je n'ai pas que ça à faire que de répondre à la presse suédoise, finlandaise, néerlandaise et plus récemment allemande."

The gist of it is that he was only shooting pictures for a couple of minutes. He wasn't trying to record a whole session, nor trying to prove anything. He happened to be by, was very shocked by what he saw, and his reflex was to grab his camera and take a few snapshots. He had no idea this was going to have so many repercussions and blow up in the international press. He is getting rather tired of of answering to the press...

(Loose translation by moi...)

Gaia
Sep. 28, 2007, 06:38 AM
http://www.syndicatlinaro.com/SLforum/read.php?f=1&i=22151&t=22151

Some more pictures added....bottom of the page.

Daydream Believer
Sep. 28, 2007, 10:26 AM
So they did more than walk around a couple of times. Those are clearly trotting pictures as well.

dutchmike
Sep. 28, 2007, 10:37 AM
Look even Coby admits she was wrong and corrected the sidereins as soon as she noticed she was being photographed.;)

hitchinmygetalong
Sep. 28, 2007, 10:45 AM
Is that like the kid who doesn't regret stealing from the cookie jar, but only regrets getting caught in the act?

claire
Sep. 28, 2007, 10:46 AM
Look even Coby admits she was wrong and corrected the sidereins as soon as she noticed she was being photographed.;)

dutchmike, Just curious, what is the reaction in europe to CvB's "statement" :confused: Are they calling BS or believing it was a "one-off accident"?

AnotherRound
Sep. 28, 2007, 10:49 AM
Man. Long couple of seconds until it was corrected.

That horse was worked in that frame, and that's what she intended to do. You don't work a horse like that "by mistake". Her mistake was to get 'caught' doing it. "Oops.I meant for that to be a private longeing session. I didn't mean for anyone to know about it. My mistake".

dutchmike
Sep. 28, 2007, 10:55 AM
dutchmike, Just curious, what is the reaction in europe to CvB's "statement" :confused: Are they calling BS or believing it was a "one-off accident"?

The people that live in a asylum believe her. The ones that know more than a 5th grader don't. Ofcourse if she was here in the US she would go to rehab.:lol:

hitchinmygetalong
Sep. 28, 2007, 10:56 AM
I'm wondering why he's got his entry number on his bridle. Though he's a pretty distinctive pony, so anyone who tried halfway hard could have figured out who he was even without the "red flag".

claire
Sep. 28, 2007, 11:00 AM
The people that live in a asylum believe her. The ones that know more than a 5th grader don't. Ofcourse if she was here in the US she would go to rehab.:lol:


:winkgrin:

slc2
Sep. 28, 2007, 11:08 AM
the horses have to have a number on them any time they are out of their stalls.

hitchinmygetalong
Sep. 28, 2007, 11:20 AM
Thanks, slc. That certainly explains it.

slc2
Sep. 28, 2007, 11:38 AM
certainly explains what?

it explains why the horse had a number on its bridle. what's the implication of that?

coby van baalen has issued an official response, a published letter. she says the same thing, it was a mistake, the reins were adjusted shortly after. and yes, it does seem quite a few people accept that statement.

claire
Sep. 28, 2007, 11:43 AM
FWIW. The DEF (Dutch Equestrian Federation) has announced an investigation into the photos.

(So, I guess "quite a few people" have not accepted CvB's statement and have put pressure to have the DEF to do something)

http://www.knhs.nl/News.asp?ID=9723&pCatID=151&CatID=

Babelfish rough translation: ;)

[quote]
"Power and Paint 26 September 2007 ERMELO (KNHS) - in the media pictures have appeared of the longeren of the pony Power and Paint by the Amazon Angela Krooswijk under accompaniment of its instructrice Coby van Baalen during the European championships dressuur Pony's in the German Freudenberg. As a result of these pictures in the horse world a discussion has been started concerning the way the pony at that moment was opgetoomd. Knhs-bestuur have commissioned to Knhs-aanklager Mr. Aukje Kroondijk to perform closer study into this matter. For the KNHS the well-being of the horse the main point is at committing the horse sport."

hitchinmygetalong
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:01 PM
certainly explains what?

it explains why the horse had a number on its bridle. what's the implication of that?

No implication behind my statement. I was a bit embarrassed to be showing my ignorance of the rules, that's all.


coby van baalen has issued an official response, a published letter. she says the same thing, it was a mistake, the reins were adjusted shortly after. and yes, it does seem quite a few people accept that statement.

But you have to admit that "quite a few" also do NOT accept that statement - myself included. If nothing else, it's very bad PR for the sport of "competitive" dressage.

slc2
Sep. 28, 2007, 12:33 PM
i personally believe what coby van baalen is saying. i think she DID feel she made a mistake and adjusted the side reins.

where i think the problem arises, is that after she adjusted the side reins, they probably weren't long enough to satisfy her critics, either. people who don't like the pose the photo shows, probably wouldn't like the 'after' photos either. even if these reins were lengthened 3, 4, 5, holes, i doubt the opposition would like the position the pony was in.

there are many stances on the issue, but two very large and very polarized camps, one that feels this technique is ok, one that is very, very against it. it is unlikely that these two camps will ever get together and discuss the issue in a manner that would lead to any resolution. if the opposition to this technique wasn't quite so childish, and so bent on name calling and punishment, some resolution might be possible.

the opposition in this issue is its own worst enemy. by its very nature is perpetuating, rather than helping, the problem. on the other hand, if they were to get criminal laws imposed, even if they were to simply get the FEI to ban it on show grounds, they might be very shocked to see what that would lead to.

Sithly
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:17 PM
Um, are you serious? You still believe this (emphasis mine):


The fact is that the photographer took these pictures in the first minute of the lunge with Power and Point and so, they do not tell the whole story. You can see that it is the start of the lunge as the pony is either standing or walking and he is not sweating from the exercise. In the pictures, both myself and my student are looking at the pony and immediately saw that the lunge was not established correctly. We allow the pony to walk a couple of seconds and change the lunge immediately so that it is in its normal position.

after seeing the trotting pictures? If so, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Coby van Balen was busted, plain and simple. Then she lied about it, and got busted again.

FancyFree
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:23 PM
Um, are you serious? You still believe this (emphasis mine):



after seeing the trotting pictures? If so, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Coby van Balen was busted, plain and simple. Then she lied about it, and got busted again.

I'm surprised that there is still a debate about it, especially after seeing pictures of the pony trotting. She intentionally cranked him into that position.

DutchMike was right on the money. If she were in the US, she'd be packing her bags for Promises, where everyone goes after being caught doing something they shouldn't have. :cool:

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:30 PM
Maybe she learned from this and will not do it (get caught) again. Im just grateful that if she is way out of line that she might learn something from it.

CaseysWhiskey
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:30 PM
How disgusting!!!!!!!!!! Made me gasp!!!

Nikki^
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:43 PM
I am not taking any sides but there are no pictures of the pony trotting in that get up and the pony is not even sweating. If there were more "sensational" photographs I am sure the photographer would have taken them. I don't think you can dismiss her explination immediately as BS.

.


Pictures of the pony trotting with his mouth gaping open would have been much more sensational, why didn't the photographer get those pictures? Probably because they did not happen.


And here ya go!
Also, the pony cannot open his mouth because it has been cranked shut!

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/Coby%20van%20Balen%20teaching%20student%20how%20to %20lunge%20Power/m_39960522_0.jpg?t=1190997576

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/Coby%20van%20Balen%20teaching%20student%20how%20to %20lunge%20Power/m_39960524_0.jpg?t=1190997597

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/Coby%20van%20Balen%20teaching%20student%20how%20to %20lunge%20Power/m_39960521_0.jpg?t=1190997629

Poor pony :cry:

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t13/ntorchia/Coby%20van%20Balen%20teaching%20student%20how%20to %20lunge%20Power/m_39960607_0.jpg?t=1190997737

dutchmike
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:44 PM
i personally believe what coby van baalen is saying. i think she DID feel she made a mistake and adjusted the side reins.


I personally would have accepted an excuse like: I didn't realise my vienna reins had shrunk that much in the wash. Then again I wouldn't be so gullible to believe that either but atleast it would be more original.

IMO yes we all make misstakes but that was a mistake that could only be done by someone that was lunging a horse for the first time in their life. I don't buy it for a second

claire
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:58 PM
Dutch Mike, Too Funny. Shrunk in the wash. :lol:

I think the few that ARE buying " the CvB statement are
to quote your previous explanation:


Quote:
Originally Posted by claire
dutchmike, Just curious, what is the reaction in europe to CvB's "statement" Are they calling BS or believing it was a "one-off accident"?

Quote Dutch Mike:

"The people that live in a asylum believe her. The ones that know more than a 5th grader don't. Ofcourse if she was here in the US she would go to rehab.:lol:"

NOMIOMI1
Sep. 28, 2007, 02:14 PM
I personally would have accepted an excuse like: I didn't realise my vienna reins had shrunk that much in the wash. Then again I wouldn't be so gullible to believe that either but atleast it would be more original.

IMO yes we all make misstakes but that was a mistake that could only be done by someone that was lunging a horse for the first time in their life. I don't buy it for a second

Witty but dramatic.

Pony Fixer
Sep. 28, 2007, 10:23 PM
Hello, kettle. (or is that pot?)

vineyridge
Sep. 29, 2007, 04:32 AM
Pony Fixer, this is totally off point, and please don't take it wrong as it isn't meant to be mean, but

it's Gandhi instead of Ghandi. Common misspelling that drives me nuts.

slc2
Sep. 29, 2007, 07:59 AM
there are people who get very, very insulted when someone corrects their spelling, LOL.

my thought is on the trot pictures, is that the side reins HAVE been adjusted at that point. that was my point before - that even 'corrected', the side reins would be too short for the feelings of most people who dislike these techniques.

bird4416
Sep. 29, 2007, 08:45 AM
Yep, that extra centimeter makes all the difference.:rolleyes:

Sannois
Sep. 29, 2007, 09:01 AM
there are people who get very, very insulted when someone corrects their spelling, LOL.

my thought is on the trot pictures, is that the side reins HAVE been adjusted at that point. that was my point before - that even 'corrected', the side reins would be too short for the feelings of most people who dislike these techniques.

Hardly. What a crock. That woman should be tied up that way herself! :mad:

Hazelnut
Sep. 29, 2007, 09:16 AM
my thought is on the trot pictures, is that the side reins HAVE been adjusted at that point. that was my point before - that even 'corrected', the side reins would be too short for the feelings of most people who dislike these techniques.

?

slc2
Sep. 29, 2007, 09:46 AM
"that extra centimeter makes all the difference"

my point exactly. even 'corrected' they are still very short. i actually believe she adjusted the reins and the trot pictures are later just as she said - my point being - they're STILL very short.

see, when i say 'i believe her', and you all jump all over me and insult me because you think 'believing' her is the same as being IN FAVOR of what she's doing, you didn't at all get what i was saying. that she adjusted the reins to the point where she felt it was fine and went on, and that for most people, they were still pretty *** **** short.

there are a great many people who rush the training of horses. there is a great deal of incentive to do so - not just economic incentive.

now for those of you interpreting english so adroitly - my using the word 'incentive' does not suggest, imply, or infer that i am in favor of the situation. it merely means that people because of various pressures and desires of their own, rush the horse's training. i had a 6 year old doing half pass, changes and just about everything else, and that was not enough for quite a few people. i think it's absurd, especially with a more average and limited horse who needs a great deal of time to mature and get its balance. doing baby versions of later work was exactly enough for that horse.

even without rollkur, even with a lesser degree of it, it is still possible to rush the training of the horse and cause a mess. this is just an additional dimension in which to ruin things. a person can keep a horse's nose infront of the vertical every second, keep its poll the highest point every second, and physically and mentally destroy the horse. there is no guarantee that the abscence of extreme-appearing positions of the horse means the training is actually good or correct, either. nevertheless, this IS another dimension in which to plough things under. but nor do i believe that rollkur alone causes the hectic, tense performances you dislike. i think it's far, far more complex than that. and i can't explain that right now, i have to go do something important - clean stalls.

if i were to find a really nice young talented warmblood that hadn't had its training rushed, that wasn't an equine pretzel, yet had not been trained with no balance and connection, that didn't have its mouth ruined, and still was happy in his work, i would buy it in an instant.

Pony Fixer
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:48 AM
edit/wrong quote, should be about my crappy spelling

Ah, correct you are. Funny, I have had that sig line for months and didn't even notice it until now. Funnier still, I copied it exactly from a iced tea cap.

And not at all offended. I don't mind being corrected when I'm actually wrong ;)

carolprudm
Sep. 29, 2007, 12:22 PM
there are people who get very, very insulted when someone corrects their spelling, LOL.

my thought is on the trot pictures, is that the side reins HAVE been adjusted at that point. that was my point before - that even 'corrected', the side reins would be too short for the feelings of most people who dislike these techniques.
Yup, looks like the pony adjusted the surcingle himself by pulling it forward.

edited for clarity
The side reins look longer because the surcingle has been pulled forward

arnika
Sep. 29, 2007, 01:51 PM
The side reins look longer because the surcingle has been pulled forward

Exactly!

Also, I agree with "disgusting" to see a BNT do this illegal training at a show.

Horrible enough to think "trainers" do this in their own barn. For them to feel comfortable enough about this to do it publically with no fear of retribution is sickening.

Dalfan
Sep. 29, 2007, 03:36 PM
Horrible enough to think "trainers" do this in their own barn. For them to feel comfortable enough about this to do it publically with no fear of retribution is sickening.

I agree. But I don't see much difference in the pony RK pics and these;

http://www.hippson.se/cldoc/18900.htm

Scroll down the page to AvG. Where is the retribution/investigation for this rider.

slc2
Sep. 29, 2007, 08:59 PM
"to see a BNT do this illegal training at a show. "

there is nothing illegal about it. neither for the country or the FEI or the dutch national organization, or any other national organization, including our own. someday it may be banned by the relevant organizations but it is not illegal.

Ghazzu
Sep. 29, 2007, 09:12 PM
"to see a BNT do this illegal training at a show. "

there is nothing illegal about it. neither for the country or the FEI or the dutch national organization, or any other national organization, including our own. someday it may be banned by the relevant organizations but it is not illegal.

I'm not so sure about that.
Doesn't look like "single direct side reins" to me.

arnika
Sep. 29, 2007, 09:25 PM
Thank you Ghazzu.

Hence the Dutch investigation.

slc2
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:47 PM
i was talking about rollkur in general, not Cobygate.

however, i'm not sure if those side reins are illegal. they are in fact, 'continuous'. it depends on what 'continuous' is supposed to mean (if it means no reins with more than one point of attachment to the horse, for example, they would be disqualified).

snoopy
Sep. 29, 2007, 10:58 PM
however, i'm not sure if those side reins are illegal. they are in fact, 'continuous'. it depends on what 'continuous' is supposed to mean (if it means no reins with more than one point of attachment to the horse, for example, they would be disqualified).


Touche'...

I do not agree with what she did nor what she said regarding it, but as was stated...she did nothing against any rules...if infact, and which I suspect, there was only one point of attachmentt to the horse. So if this is the case, she walks away with bad press and nothing more.:(

slc2
Sep. 29, 2007, 11:09 PM
it's hard to say. i really don't know what's going to come out of this. it might lead to less extreme training overall, but it could also wind up a very, very bad situation.

cinder88
Oct. 1, 2007, 10:51 AM
I think that what many people don't associate with Rolkur is that it was, many years ago when it first showed up, originally touted as a control/submission technique.

So, perhaps not always is the person practising rolkur doing it purely as a stretching/suppling exercise, but more of a submission exercise.

I still don't agree with it to the extent we are seeing it in these pictures, but I just thought I'd throw in another facet of the technique and what its users have said it is about.

Cinder

Red Barn
Oct. 1, 2007, 01:58 PM
I think that what many people don't associate with Rolkur is that it was, many years ago when it first showed up, originally touted as a control/submission technique.

So, perhaps not always is the person practising rolkur doing it purely as a stretching/suppling exercise, but more of a submission exercise.

Cinder

Well, that certainly makes more sense than the ridiculous "suppling" theory, which is obviously a total crock. Does anybody - besides slc, of course - actually buy that one?

If inforced immobility actually produced "suppleness" we'd all emerge from 6 hour flights in Economy Class sailing around like Michael Jordan.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 1, 2007, 02:25 PM
Well, that certainly makes more sense than the ridiculous "suppling" theory, which is obviously a total crock. Does anybody - besides slc, of course - actually buy that one?

If inforced immobility actually produced "suppleness" we'd all emerge from 6 hour flights in Economy Class sailing around like Michael Jordan.


I thought the Vets were the ones who deemed it stretching and muscle building. Even if they dont agree with the length in time it is being used.

Red Barn
Oct. 1, 2007, 03:02 PM
I thought the Vets were the ones who deemed it stretching and muscle building. Even if they dont agree with the length in time it is being used.There's no "even if . . . " about it! Stretching involves movement by definition, so the length of time a position is held is absolutely crucial.

MOMENTARY hyperfexion might accurately be called "stretching." If the horse's back and neck MOVE, suppleness and flexibility are enhanced, just as in people.

PROLONGED hyperflexion isn't even in the same ballpark - the back and neck CAN'T move, so "suppleness" can't possibly result.

Isn't it rather obvious?

Suppose you do some stretching exercises yourself - touching your toes, for example - you'll probably feel hunky-dory, right?

Now imagine that somebody straps your forehead tightly to your knees and leaves you like that for an hour . . . Well! That's a whole other thing, isn't it?

Dalfan
Oct. 1, 2007, 03:31 PM
As I remember, the powers that be that conducted the swept under the rug "study" declared that only "experts" should use Rollkur (like that is really going to happen).

That keeps it right in line with the tenets of classical dressage...:mad::no: