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View Full Version : Pics of Coby van Balen teaching student how to lunge Power and Paint in rollkur



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Bluey
Oct. 1, 2007, 03:00 PM
I personally would have accepted an excuse like: I didn't realise my vienna reins had shrunk that much in the wash. Then again I wouldn't be so gullible to believe that either but atleast it would be more original.

IMO yes we all make misstakes but that was a mistake that could only be done by someone that was lunging a horse for the first time in their life. I don't buy it for a second

If that was a mistake and the first time, the horse would have been flipping all over, trying to get loose.

He is going nicely, as he has been trained over time to go that tight.:eek:
I think that it is not accidental, no matter what she said.:no:

carolprudm
Oct. 1, 2007, 03:23 PM
Kind of hard to see how they did BOTH sides up to short, unless they were thinking they were cranking on the surcingle instead

claire
Oct. 2, 2007, 10:07 AM
Well, I guess now the Dutch Animal Welfare Society and the Dutch Equestrian Federation are involved.
And, it would appear that the investigation is about more than what type of side reins were used.

Eurodressage report:

http://www.eurodressage.com/news/dressage/holland/2007/power-rollkur2.html

kkj
Oct. 2, 2007, 03:23 PM
In the picture of the pony being ridden, you can see that he has a thick pony stallion neck that would pose some difficulties, but tying him back like that...unexcusable... and if they do that at a show, what the hell do they do at home when no one is watching?

I agree that some more type A dressage star trainers and riders (a lot of those in Europe) push horses really hard. One will make it, 4 more will not. What happens to the rejects... sometimes like Idocus they come back to us and get lovely graceful riders who go out and beat the Van Balens at the World Cup. Sometimes like Ferro they melt down at the Olympics and just stand there and refuse to Piaffe.

I would not be clinicing with them. I will be putting them on the list of people I silently hope don't make the cut at the big competitions.

Oh and the bull about mistakenly putting the sidereins like that. That is so ridiculous. You would have to crank pretty hard to get that stallion ponies fat thick neck in that tight.

sm
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:02 PM
I thought the Vets were the ones who deemed it stretching and muscle building. Even if they dont agree with the length in time it is being used.

Here you go, link in next para from the vets and medical research results Art, T., Reger, H.P. and Lekeux, P. Pulmonary function in the exercising horse. In: Lekeux P. (Ed.), Equine Respiratory Diseases. Ithaca: International Veterinary Information Service (www.ivis.org), 2002; Document No. B0302.1002. Derksen, F.J. and Robinson, N.E. Overview of the Equine Respiratory System. In: Lekeux P. (Ed.), Equine Respiratory Diseases. Ithaca: International Veterinary Information Service (www.ivis.org), 2002; Document No. B0301.0302.

Also answers your other post in another thread about closed down airways. See section C, http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/DingosBreakfastClub/BioMech/BioMechonthebit3.html "choking where the windpipe traverses the bones of the hyoid and overstretching of the cervical serratus muscles attached to the scapula."

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:08 PM
Sorry I really do think that pony could breath. If you wanna argue that its extreme Ill agree with that. That its abuse probably not.

Shenandoah
Oct. 3, 2007, 09:22 AM
I have not read all of the posts here as I have dial up and it would take forever. That said, my opinion is that tying a horse's head so tightly to it's chest is detrimental to it's mental and physical well being. I don't care how long they longe it this way. This is an extreme. Yes, I do ride my horses low and deep for short periods, but not to this extreme. I'm talking a little BTV for a few strides. AND I certainly don't see where this relaxes the horse's back. If you look at the pictures, the pony's loins are tight and tense. Try tensing up YOUR lower back and moving. Someone should tie Coby's chin to her chest and chase her with a longe whip until she begs for mercy. No wonder that in Ferro's last performances he looked like 2 men in a horse suit.

purplnurpl
Oct. 3, 2007, 10:26 AM
haha...I wonder where they're sent.... ;)

braaahahaha..

to the US.

arnika
Oct. 3, 2007, 12:38 PM
by Spotson:
In a recent article in one of the leading Dutch Equestrian Paper called “de Paardenkrant”, the European professor and specialist in lunging horses Lammert Haanstra made some remarkable statements.


Quote:
Quote :

This LDR-position we see in these pictures could very well be a part of a serie of exercises which are beneficial to the horses, under the condition that it is used by professionals. It is not very wise of Coby (who I consider a very experienced trainer, and a professional) to use this method in a place where uneducated people can whitness it, specially because these people might start using it without the proper knowledge. I very often see the same thing happening in gymnastics where competitors are streching their bodies to the max, just to be prepared for the competition.

End Quote :

I would like to read someone state that gymnasts are routinely tied down in their stretching position and made to hold it for at least 15 minutes or more, which is the length of time the photographer noted Coby using this lunging technique.
I would REALLY like to see pictures in sequence of such gymnasts.:eek::winkgrin:
Not bloody likely!

Ghazzu
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:29 PM
"This LDR-position we see in these pictures could very well be a part of a serie of exercises which are beneficial to the horses, under the condition that it is used by professionals. It is not very wise of Coby (who I consider a very experienced trainer, and a professional) to use this method in a place where uneducated people can whitness it, specially because these people might start using it without the proper knowledge."

This *really* sounds like a parody.
Cripes--if you think this is stupid or barbaric, it's because you're "uneducated".
Riiiight.
Nekkid emperors, anyone?

Bluey
Oct. 3, 2007, 08:46 PM
To think that some 40 years ago we used to be threatened with KD for a week! (kitchen duty and that many less hours to ride) if we were seen with a horse BTV.:eek:

And now it is used to train and not even penalized when showing.:rolleyes:

Samantha Acres
Oct. 6, 2007, 06:30 AM
In actual fact the FEI rules say that the horse should (during the competition) have the poll as the highest point - this is quite clearly not occurring in the majority of dressage competitions ..whether lower level or higher !! What is the point of FEI rules if they are not adhered to?

The fact that these ponies and horses are having their heads literally tied to their chins during training really is not conducive to the techniques needed for 'supplying' - one muscle must stretch while the other tenses and vice versa ...therefore the stretching must be moveable not fixed!!!
Bearing this in mind the whole 'Rollkur' thing must therefore be intended to achieve something else ...control perhaps?
Which brings us back to the whole point of dressage meaning the 'training' of the horse to be calm, controlled and to be 'at one' with the rider ...if it is correctly trained then it may well 'react' to an outside factor but because of the correct 'training' it will not gallop off at prize presentations or when it sees a tractor etc....

It now comes down to the Judges at shows, the FEI and the Animal welfare groups to correct this.
The FEI needs to hold a proper 'open' investigation with more than a few 'well chosen' veterinarians, a few 'well chosen' riders before the animal welfare groups really get their teeth into the matter and ban it all completely!

Look at societies such as www.allege-ideal.com (Colonel Carde) in France, Slyvia Loch in England, The Spanish Riding School etc.. these are the real EXPERTS in dressage and are doing it for the love of the horse NOT just on a crusade to be at the Olympics....these are the groups that should have more input in these matters. Abuse to a horse comes in many forms - a yank in the mouth, a jab with the spur, cranking their heads down by their knees, working a horse too long in one position before resting ......perhaps it is indeed time that the Animal welfare groups got involved at competitions.

The next time you are at a competition watch the warm ups - if you see something which you consider not to be correct then mention it ..take a picture.
The ball must now be kept rolling .................

Samantha Acres
Oct. 6, 2007, 06:32 AM
In actual fact the FEI rules say that the horse should (during the competition) have the poll as the highest point - this is quite clearly not occurring in the majority of dressage competitions ..whether lower level or higher !! What is the point of FEI rules if they are not adhered to?

The fact that these ponies and horses are having their heads literally tied to their chins during training really is not conducive to the techniques needed for 'supplying' - one muscle must stretch while the other tenses and vice versa ...therefore the stretching must be moveable not fixed!!!
Bearing this in mind the whole 'Rollkur' thing must therefore be intended to achieve something else ...control perhaps?
Which brings us back to the whole point of dressage meaning the 'training' of the horse to be calm, controlled and to be 'at one' with the rider ...if it is correctly trained then it may well 'react' to an outside factor but because of the correct 'training' it will not gallop off at prize presentations or when it sees a tractor etc....

It now comes down to the Judges at shows, the FEI and the Animal welfare groups to correct this.
The FEI needs to hold a proper 'open' investigation with more than a few 'well chosen' veterinarians, a few 'well chosen' riders before the animal welfare groups really get their teeth into the matter and ban it all completely!

Look at societies such as www.allege-ideal.com (Colonel Carde) in France, Slyvia Loch in England, The Spanish Riding School etc.. these are the real EXPERTS in dressage and are doing it for the love of the horse NOT just on a crusade to be at the Olympics....these are the groups that should have more input into these matters. Abuse to a horse comes in many forms - a yank in the mouth, a jab with the spur, cranking their heads down by their knees, working a horse too long in one position before resting ......perhaps it is indeed time that the Animal welfare groups got involved at competitions.

The next time you are at a competition watch the warm ups - if you see something which you consider not to be correct then mention it ..take a picture.
The ball must now be kept rolling .................

Rusty Stirrup
Oct. 6, 2007, 09:11 AM
These horses are trained for horse showing not dressage.

Red Barn
Oct. 6, 2007, 09:28 AM
These horses are trained for horse showing not dressage.

I'm puzzled. . . what on earth do you mean?

Rusty Stirrup
Oct. 6, 2007, 09:34 AM
I mean that trainers who do 'whatever it takes' are more interested in the 7 minute result than the time the process truly needs to be called dressage. JMO

Sonesta
Oct. 6, 2007, 09:58 AM
Rusty, you are DEAD ON CORRECT with that last statement. IMHO

thetruth
Oct. 6, 2007, 10:07 AM
"This LDR-position we see in these pictures could very well be a part of a serie of exercises which are beneficial to the horses, under the condition that it is used by professionals. It is not very wise of Coby (who I consider a very experienced trainer, and a professional) to use this method in a place where uneducated people can whitness it, specially because these people might start using it without the proper knowledge."

Isn't this the same answer Anky and Sjef gave :confused:

thetruth
Oct. 6, 2007, 10:12 AM
"to see a BNT do this illegal training at a show. "

there is nothing illegal about it. neither for the country or the FEI or the dutch national organization, or any other national organization, including our own. someday it may be banned by the relevant organizations but it is not illegal.

And the photographer stated that when he would have known that his pictures created such an uproar, he would never have made them public.

claire
Oct. 6, 2007, 10:29 AM
And the photographer stated that when he would have known that his pictures created such an uproar, he would never have made them public.

Actually, if you get a true translation from the french (not babelfish),
in context and with the nuances, what the photographer said is more like:
GL quote:
"Yes, but it is none of my business, since I didn't take the pictures at the start and then at the end (I don't even know when the end was, since I left beforehand) but all in the time of one or two minutes. My goal was not to show that this work took place for a certain length of time: I wasn't in the process of producing the proof that it was the case!! Put yourself in my shoes: I was just very shocked by what I saw by chance, and my reflex was to grab my camera and take a few shots.

*****It wasn't but for the reaction of the trainer and the riders mother that I realized that they weren't very proud, but never did I imagine that it would lead to so many stories that are attacking me. I didn't think I'd have to answer to the Swedish, Finnish, Dutch and more recently German presses."*****

The photographer was responding to accusations that he took photos (instead of telling CvB to stop lunging) because he saw $$$$$ opportunity for himself.

Sort of like "shoot the messenger" :(

Red Barn
Oct. 6, 2007, 10:36 AM
I mean that trainers who do 'whatever it takes' are more interested in the 7 minute result than the time the process truly needs to be called dressage. JMO

Oh, sorry! I thought you were talking about the very classical French website posted directly above your comment.

(And I totally agree with you about the 7 minute trainers. Well put.)

claire
Oct. 6, 2007, 10:51 AM
I was listening to the confession of Marion Jones (that she DID use steroids and lied about it)

I get the same feelings of sadness/disappointment/disgust I did when the photos of CvB/P&P came out.

It is really hard to accept that an olympic athlete that you respect actually uses such training "methods/subtances" and then
Lies About It! :no:

Really, for most, I don't think people are reacting to CvB out of nationalistic competitiveness, envy or a desire to "push" someone off their pedestal.

More that, their previous performances and accomplishments will always be tainted by the (truth) that has finally come out. And that they chose to LIE instead of be upfront when they had a chance to make a statement.

mbm
Oct. 6, 2007, 11:31 AM
i must be *totally* jaded... because i expect people to lie, use questionable methods, and basically do whatever it takes to win and make $$.

thetruth
Oct. 6, 2007, 11:42 AM
Actually, if you get a true translation from the french (not babelfish),
in context and with the nuances, what the photographer said is more like:
GL quote:
"Yes, but it is none of my business, since I didn't take the pictures at the start and then at the end (I don't even know when the end was, since I left beforehand) but all in the time of one or two minutes. My goal was not to show that this work took place for a certain length of time: I wasn't in the process of producing the proof that it was the case!! Put yourself in my shoes: I was just very shocked by what I saw by chance, and my reflex was to grab my camera and take a few shots.

*****It wasn't but for the reaction of the trainer and the riders mother that I realized that they weren't very proud, but never did I imagine that it would lead to so many stories that are attacking me. I didn't think I'd have to answer to the Swedish, Finnish, Dutch and more recently German presses."*****

The photographer was responding to accusations that he took photos (instead of telling CvB to stop lunging) because he saw $$$$$ opportunity for himself.

Sort of like "shoot the messenger" :(

There was an interview in a German magazine with this French guy (who is btw also a French breeder), in which he stated that he is aware that he is "pissing against the wind", because he went with his pictures to the owners of P&P, the TD, Vet, Stewards and competitions organisers, but they all answered "there is nothing illegal on your pictures". And as long half of the world is defending A&S training system as beneficial for the horses, nobody wants to burn his hands on this matter.

claire
Oct. 6, 2007, 11:44 AM
i must be *totally* jaded... because i expect people to lie, use questionable methods, and basically do whatever it takes to win and make $$.


mbm, Really? You wrote how you moved to find a trainer whose methods you respected.

What if photos or evidence came out that your trainer engaged in such lunging methods or drugged horses and then Lied about it in a public statement?

You would not feel at all disappointed/conflicted/"taken"? :confused:

mbm
Oct. 6, 2007, 11:50 AM
mbm, Really? You wrote how you moved to find a trainer whose methods you respected.

What if photos or evidence came out that your trainer engaged in such lunging methods or drugged horses and then Lied about it in a public statement?

You would not feel at all disappointed/conflicted/"taken"? :confused:

i was specifically talking about top competitors and top business people -

edited to add: of course the *reason* i am so jaded is becuase i felt duped a long time ago... and now dont expect much from folks at the top.

edited even further to add: i used to look at the world very differently... and then i started seeing what goes on in various barns and what various folks do to win and or make $$. it is fairly common - so i *expect* tip top competitors to do much worse.

i wish i was wrong.

and that is one of the reasons why i picked my trainer - he is a nobody and doesn't have the pressure of needing to win and show.

LarkspurCO
Oct. 6, 2007, 12:34 PM
it's hard to say. i really don't know what's going to come out of this. it might lead to less extreme training overall, but it could also wind up a very, very bad situation.

What do you mean by a very very bad situation?

LarkspurCO
Oct. 6, 2007, 12:43 PM
Sorry I really do think that pony could breath. If you wanna argue that its extreme Ill agree with that. That its abuse probably not.

Of course he can breathe. If not he would quickly faint.

What the illustrations show is constriction, not complete obstruction, of the airway. There's a difference.

Try this for yourself: Sit straight up straight and take several deep breaths. Now, fold your chin all the way to your chest and do the same. Breathing becomes more difficult.

claire
Oct. 6, 2007, 12:58 PM
mbm, Yes, I hear you! :( I work for a large corporation, and there ARE people who get ahead by questionable ethics and actions. But, there ARE ALSO people at the top who got there honestly.

I think (for me) the kicker is the LYING when confronted with evidence of a training technique or drug usage.

I mean, in CvB's case I don't think I would have so totally lost respect for her if she had just been trutful and admitted that she uses this method of lunging and believes it is a valid method (despite the way it looks)

Instead, she issues a "statement" :dead: that any child would have a difficult time accepting!


i was specifically talking about top competitors and top business people -

edited to add: of course the *reason* i am so jaded is becuase i felt duped a long time ago... and now dont expect much from folks at the top.

edited even further to add: i used to look at the world very differently... and then i started seeing what goes on in various barns and what various folks do to win and or make $$. it is fairly common - so i *expect* tip top competitors to do much worse.

i wish i was wrong.

and that is one of the reasons why i picked my trainer - he is a nobody and doesn't have the pressure of needing to win and show.

arnika
Oct. 6, 2007, 02:38 PM
by mbm:
i must be *totally* jaded... because i expect people to lie, use questionable methods, and basically do whatever it takes to win and make $$.


I'm so there with you. One of the reasons why it is important to have an international governing body that will stand up for the horses and enforce it's own rules.

snoopy
Oct. 6, 2007, 03:30 PM
I thought this may be of interest:


This little statement was used to promote Coby's book "The Simplicity of Dressage"


Are you sitting down? Here goes:


Elegantly illustrated with beautiful photographs, The Simplicity of Dressage offers riders and trainers at every level a clearly stated method of attaining higher test scores and more advanced movements, while at the same time, showing great concern for the welfare and happiness of the horse.

To order

:confused::confused::confused:


To me there is a lot said in that paragraph:


"with beautiful photographs"....hmmm as I have not read the book or seen the "photos" one can only hope that they did not look anything like those of "THE PONY"...

"a clearly stated method of attaining high scores"....as I have said, I did not read the book and there for could only hazzard a guess as to what that "method" COULD involve.....

"while at the same time showing great concern for the welfare and happiness of the horse".....I will NOT even go there!!!!!

goeslikestink
Oct. 6, 2007, 04:18 PM
um what happened to using legs

anyways in normally circumstances if you are working a horse in side reins,to begin with they should be about 2-5cm shorter than a lenght which would allow the horse to carry his head in a a normal standing martigale or troting position with out reins.
they should be the same lenght despite the common habit of shortenteing the inside rein in an attempt to encourage the bend, inside rein shortening causes the horse to swing his quarters out and in lunging you should still conside it as the inside leg outside hand obviously the cant substitue a riders hands but the pony gets the idea with his power comming from the hind quarters and the person doing the lunging pushing him forwards into contact with a relaxed voice this allows the pony to relax its the yaw and flex the poll and apdot the desired working out line
but as thers always a but
what she is doing is a short cut to the movement and not allowing the pony to relax the yaw and flex the poll - she has him so tight on the side reins - he dare not move as hes restricted
so there fore when ridden and working to get the hinds underneath instead of doing it the nice way and the horse learning politely by the rider by lenghtening and shortening his strides
so that his balance is learnt by shifting one hind leg then the other-- and working from the hind end through to the front end and into the poll to relax the yaw and flex the the poll by the rider-- and the ponies head comes down and on to the bit and has a nice shape and out line -
this way is a cheats way of getting the desired effect more quickly with out the work by the rider when ridden--

and thats why it is also illegal in dressage --

petitefilly
Oct. 8, 2007, 01:33 PM
One of the reasons why it is important to have an international governing body that will stand up for the horses and enforce it's own rules.

Truer words were never spoken. Now if they could get the *brass _alls* into their beings and make strict rules we all would profit in the end. :) <JMHO>

slc2
Oct. 8, 2007, 02:56 PM
"it could lead to a very very bad situation"

"what do you mean by a very very bad situation"

i mean that the best way to get rid of a problem of how much people bend horse's necks, is to get rid of it yourself. if something is a problem, don't do it. and gradually one person after another abandons the practice by observing and seeing improved results at home and in competition.

if that's not possible, the next best way to get rid of something is to get others to agree to not do it, by pressuring them into believing it's bad.

if that's not possible, the next best solution is to get your club, organization or group to control it, and get people to stop doing it by passing a club or organization rule, and gradually, club by club, each club agrees to control it.

if that's not possible, the next best solution is to get a larger governing organization to ban it on show grounds.

the worst possible solution to the situation of how much people bend the horse's neck, is to involve law enforcement, laywers, judges, and the legal system of america.

the results of doing so, i can't even begin to imagine, but the potential is frightening.

no one ever thought fox hunting would be banned in england.

it is banned. the legal framework in the country was convinced it was cruel, and it was banned.

hundredacres
Oct. 8, 2007, 03:43 PM
I imagine that when you finally release the poor thing from this, he'll do anything you want him to do, he's so damn happy to be free. This looks to me like something intended to break the spirit, to force submission. I think there are a lot of other ways to get it, but there are always those who prefer a short cut.

A lot of people don't see it that way though - as is bound to be obvious by the upcoming train wreck.

Yes, probably very similar to hanging a horse the way some shady WP trainers do (tie the horse high for hours and houers so when it' is untied all it wants to do is drop the head as low as it can go...and roll a peanut).

I have never asked about Rollkur - as I've been afraid. And I hardly have time to search the board through all the comments that lead to commments (without an actual definition)......but I think this picture explains at least the side that creates a lot of controversy!

slc2
Oct. 8, 2007, 06:38 PM
Actually, horses don't think that way at all, they are hardly put together to be capable of thinking like that. they don't connect things up that way or react that way. when is the last time you saw a horse that was tied down on the ground, get up and gratefully nuzzle his master, oh thank you mommy, thank you for releasing me, from now on i'll be a good horsey. rubbish.

They don't 'do anything you want' when you release them from some device that simply restrains them, they go right back to doing what they were doing before - take off the draw reins, the head pops right back up where it was. take off the martingale, up pops the head. and many times, with the muscles even MORE incorrect looking.

why? because the horse is doing what his phyics of his motion impell him to do. it isn't a choice any more than going fast when you fall out a window. much of what the horse does 'wrong' when ridden, he thinks about as much as you think about blinking. he puts his neck up because he's losing his balance. he spooks because his back feels wierd, he doesn't take the flying lead change because he CAN'T make his legs move, because he's off balance. EEEE EEEZ PASSEEEEVE, as jean luc cornille says, LOL.

If it actually does cause some muscles to stretch, they may be more flexible after that, that's conceivable, in theory, depending on how the device is used, but if the opposing muscles remained in tension, you can actually make the horse stronger to resist you when the device is removed.

most people have extremely little success with trying to use a device to restrain a horse into a 'frame', it just doesn't work, but at the same time, i don't think that's what cobygate was all about, making the horse assume a position, i'm not saying it's right, but these are people that can make just about any horse 'assume a position' under saddle - there's no reason for them to do that on a longe line, unless they are trying to set the horse up for a timid or weak rider, and i don't think that's what they were up to at all. i have seen plenty of people do that, including 'classical' trainers in the USA, they will put a horse in some short sidereins and warm it up this way so a little kid can get on the horse and keep its head down for the duration of a test. but i don't think that's what cobygate was doing.

the horse's posture isn't consistent when the device is rmoved and the muscle development doesn't look correct and doesn't work correctly.

Ghazzu
Oct. 8, 2007, 07:02 PM
Actually, horses don't think that way at all, they are hardly put together to be capable of thinking like that.

If you are alluding to the previous post (hard to tell when you can't be bothered to quote what you are attempting to dispute, dear), no higher thought is required for a horse which has been hung from the rafters to drop its head.
The muscles are exhausted.

As far as a horse which has been hogtied, it doesn't necessarily show affection to the tormentor, but the ones who don't freak out completely do become submissive.
Again, no higher thought processes need be invoked.

hundredacres
Oct. 8, 2007, 07:11 PM
Thank you Ghazzu. And yes slc2, it is not a thought process that causes a horse that has been tied (as I described in my previous post) to hang it's head down when let down - it is fatigue. They don't "think" anything. It is reflex.

easyrider
Oct. 8, 2007, 11:46 PM
most people have extremely little success with trying to use a device to restrain a horse into a 'frame', it just doesn't work

Hmmm. Perhaps it's true that most people have little success with this. I wouldn't know. But certainly more than enough people have lots of success with it. So much so that the frame commonly remains once the horse is free of the device. Of course, there's no real connection. I think it's actually pretty easy to spot, and pretty commonplace.

springen
Oct. 10, 2007, 01:30 PM
Following this threat, as well as others, and having discussions with my own students about this threat and the pictures I have admit it is very sad indeed, not to what happened to this pony or other horses shown in the "rollkur" - I can not judge that since I have no prior knowledge of the muscular as well as skeletal problems this pony might have - only the trainers can tell, but the tenacity of the members of the board ripping into and judging the trainer. These are Championships where you needed to qualify for therefor it can be assumed that the pony does have longevity with the method. Who are the people, not having achieved much in their lives themselves to bash and judge those who are successful? Bottom line thruth - teaching a beginner or intermediate rider is utterly painful for any horse, want to judge what is right or wrong, figure out how many times you as a rider are unbalanced (ergo creating pain and suffering in your horses back) or how many times you inadvertently are to harsh on the bit. Those who sit in a glass house shall not throw rocks.

Ghazzu
Oct. 10, 2007, 05:24 PM
Following this threat, as well as others, and having discussions with my own students about this threat and the pictures I have admit it is very sad indeed, not to what happened to this pony or other horses shown in the "rollkur" - I can not judge that since I have no prior knowledge of the muscular as well as skeletal problems this pony might have - only the trainers can tell, but the tenacity of the members of the board ripping into and judging the trainer. These are Championships where you needed to qualify for therefor it can be assumed that the pony does have longevity with the method. Who are the people, not having achieved much in their lives themselves to bash and judge those who are successful? Bottom line thruth - teaching a beginner or intermediate rider is utterly painful for any horse, want to judge what is right or wrong, figure out how many times you as a rider are unbalanced (ergo creating pain and suffering in your horses back) or how many times you inadvertently are to harsh on the bit. Those who sit in a glass house shall not throw rocks.

I think that's too facile an analogy.
While unintended abuse happens, it still does not justify systematic abuse, which, IMNSHO, the trussing up of that pony like a Christmas turkey certainly is.

The possibility that a horse can tolerate such abusive methods over a period of time doesn't make it less abusive.

And I don't think one even needs to be a rider to make that observation.

cinder88
Oct. 10, 2007, 05:35 PM
or how many times you inadvertently are to harsh on the bit. Those who sit in a glass house shall not throw rocks.

Well, I'd say THESE people were "inadvertently" harsh on the bit for about 15 minutes straight, if reports are correct.

Cinder

Kyzteke
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:20 AM
Yet there are no more pictures??? If this was such a sensational event that went on and on why are there no more pictures? I think the photographers pictures are one sided. He clearly does not want to tell the whole story. He could refute Coby's claim if he published more pictures demonstrating that the abuse went on. I just can't help but wonder if there was an agenda?

Again, not defending Coby...just not ready to write her or a 15 year old girl straight to hell.
Anymore than 15 seconds of this was too much and wrong. Period. First of all, you don't lead a horse from the stall to the arena in sidereins, so they were obviously adjusted right there in the arena -- probably in front of COby.

And even if the student didn't have Coby around -- for heaven's sake - that 15 yr. old student has more dressage training in her young life than I have ever dreamed of, and even I know those side reins aren't right.

What a sweet pony.

Sabine
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:43 AM
I think I am really over this thread. The side reins were adjusted very tightly- in an extreme position to force submission. Nonetheless- the pony knew the handlers - he knew the girl and coby because they worked together for a long time- he knew the drill- he is a stallion and had a big strong under neck- he did not take any harm in this - there was no blood, trauma, yelling or other explosion- like flipping over backwards- if anything - it seems the pony knew the drill- because he is a smart stallion that breeds mares a lot and has a very interesting showlife in Europe- he has lots of major ribbons and accolades and he knows that when it's time to be a riding horse- he needs to remember to submit to a rider and let that big fu$$ing neck go and bend it a bit.

He did not die or colick from this- he is just fine- loving life, and pony ladies everyday...


The horse is fine- he never colicked- he has been breeding extremely succesfully- he doesn't seem to be stressed or showing poor condition...so let it rest...it will be addressed- I am sure- and whatever the outcome- it will only address what can be done in public venues...

I would say - let's all concentrate on saving those horses that are truly threatened- by abusive conditions- rather than those that are clearly flourishing in their life and winning in the show ring as well as with their progeny!!

carolprudm
Oct. 15, 2007, 04:44 AM
That post makes me ill

Dalfan
Oct. 15, 2007, 07:23 AM
That post makes me ill

I would agree. The ends justify the means.


I think I am really over this thread.

If true, I suggest you not post/read the thread, or try to tell others what to post/read.

Gayla
Oct. 15, 2007, 08:19 AM
I think I am really over this thread. The side reins were adjusted very tightly- in an extreme position to force submission. Nonetheless- the pony knew the handlers - he knew the girl and coby because they worked together for a long time- he knew the drill- he is a stallion and had a big strong under neck- he did not take any harm in this - there was no blood, trauma, yelling or other explosion- like flipping over backwards- if anything - it seems the pony knew the drill- because he is a smart stallion that breeds mares a lot and has a very interesting showlife in Europe- he has lots of major ribbons and accolades and he knows that when it's time to be a riding horse- he needs to remember to submit to a rider and let that big fu$$ing neck go and bend it a bit.

He did not die or colick from this- he is just fine- loving life, and pony ladies everyday...


The horse is fine- he never colicked- he has been breeding extremely succesfully- he doesn't seem to be stressed or showing poor condition...so let it rest...it will be addressed- I am sure- and whatever the outcome- it will only address what can be done in public venues...

I would say - let's all concentrate on saving those horses that are truly threatened- by abusive conditions- rather than those that are clearly flourishing in their life and winning in the show ring as well as with their progeny!!
Well, then why do we have training methods at all? Show up at the show if your test goes well...that is all that matters. I dare say that the attitude you showing is the same one that allowed children and women to be abused for years and years inside their very own homes, no one died...let it be. For me, if it is about the showing it is meaningless. I am sorry you feel this way Sabine so sad. :no:

claire
Oct. 15, 2007, 08:54 AM
I think I am really over this thread. The side reins were adjusted very tightly- in an extreme position to force submission. Nonetheless- the pony knew the handlers - he knew the girl and coby because they worked together for a long time- he knew the drill- he is a stallion and had a big strong under neck- he did not take any harm in this - there was no blood, trauma, yelling or other explosion- like flipping over backwards- if anything - it seems the pony knew the drill- because he is a smart stallion that breeds mares a lot and has a very interesting showlife in Europe-

:confused: Coby van Baalen's "statement" says this was a "one-off" mistake.
Why bother to try and deny your chosen method of training?

So, Sabine, either you are correct and this is a training method Coby uses and "the pony knows the drill", in which case, Coby misrepresented herself in her "statement".

Or, Coby was telling the truth and this was a "one-off" mistake and she was confused about how to adjust the side-reins.

Either way, she has lost the respect of many people.

Quote Coby van Baalen:
"I hope that, by way of this letter, I have clarified the situation and the background of the pictures and our way of training. To be absolutely clear: it serves no purpose to lunge in this particular way, it was a one-off incident which was immediately corrected and this is not at all our daily training mode. Everyone can see that at our stables in Brakel or read that in our books. "

claire
Oct. 15, 2007, 10:53 AM
I think I am really over this thread. he has lots of major ribbons and accolades and he knows that when it's time to be a riding horse-

~he needs to remember to submit to a rider and let that big fu$$ing neck go and bend it a bit.~ :eek:
He did not die or colick from this- he is just fine- loving life, and pony ladies everyday...~

I agree, IMVHO (which, I believe I am entitled to) this is just sad. So, as long as your horse doesn't "die or colick"
anything goes, as long as you get the blue ribbon. :no:

And, I guess, P&P talked to you and told you he was "loving life and pony ladies every day". :rolleyes:




I think I am really over this thread.
so let it rest...it will be addressed- I am sure- and whatever the outcome- it will only address what can be done in public venues...
I would say - let's all concentrate on saving those horses that are truly threatened- by abusive conditions- rather than those that are clearly flourishing in their life and winning in the show ring as well as with their progeny!!

If you are "over this thread" why bother to open it?

Obviously, the P&P photos struck a note all over the world. COTH is just one of many forums worldwide with threads about the P&P photos. And the overwhelming opinion seems to be that the photos show an abusive training condition. AND, that CvB misrepresented herself and her training methods to avoid "bad press".

Otherwise, why would the FEI,NFD,DAWS,GDF all be "addressing" the issue?

sm
Oct. 15, 2007, 11:03 AM
claire, where is GDF addressing it?

The only thing I found is Coby van Baalen will co- present a clinic during the 7th Global Dressage Forum, on 29-30 October. They will illustrate the education from pony rider to Grand Prix rider.

After the clinic, along with Johann Hinnemann, Coby van Baalen will react on some recent press publications. http://www.globaldressageforum.com/home/

Good to know the GDF is busy "creating a global dressage language," see upper right hand cover tag line. Not DIALOGUE mind you, as a forum would suggest, but creating a new dressage language.

claire
Oct. 15, 2007, 11:14 AM
claire, where is GDF addressing it

"After the clinic, along with Johann Hinnemann, Coby van Baalen will react on some recent press publications"

I think "recent press publications" is "PR Speak" for Coby-Gate. ;)

sm
Oct. 15, 2007, 11:20 AM
dear lord, they are going to continue to sanitize the situation. PR clean-up, big time. I guess that's what you mean by addressing it. Every year GDF marches out someone to do a dumbed down version of BTV training, not the real rollkur techniques.

FireBreathingMad
Oct. 15, 2007, 11:23 AM
Clair, to take such a view and to have the experience to speak thus, you must be a Maestra? It's easy to verbally throw her (and Anky, as well) into the pot. But since you are so superior, why not just get out there in the competitions and "show her" how well your own training methods work. Put these women in their true place.

sm
Oct. 15, 2007, 11:29 AM
before you answer Claire, FireBreathingMad has a total of four posts, and they always go after a poster (never a topic of discussion).

So who is this really.... only four posts....

FireBreathingMad
Oct. 15, 2007, 11:37 AM
And who are you?

sm
Oct. 15, 2007, 11:49 AM
**yawn** like I said, your posts are always about a poster, never a topic.

here's the forum rules, of special note see Rule One and Rule Five
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/announcement.php?f=75&a=19

FireBreathingMad
Oct. 15, 2007, 11:54 AM
I read the rules. I've not been rude. You, however, made a rude comment to me about the fact that I am a new person here. I have lurked a while and have appreciated SLC's posts. When it was made a thread about level of riding, I was curious what her level was. I was not being sarcastic.

I've lurked for some time. Many of you, you inclulded, seem to take great pleasure in finding fault with the top riders. And it is of interest to many why this is done? If it were not of interest, the "post views" or "replies" would reflect such lack of interest.

Furthermore, you asked "who" I was. Am I not entitled to keep that to myself on this board? In my view, that was a rude question and improper according to the TOS of this board.

claire
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:07 PM
firebreathingmad,

I believe you are confused. This thread is about Coby van Baalen and the photos of P&P.
I do not know where Anky comes into the discussion :confused:

I also do not understand where I said that I was capable of better riding or training than anyone???? :confused:

Nor, do I understand what one's riding level has to do with
THIS thread? :confused:

There IS a thread with a poll on riding level. Have YOU participated? :cool:

As for post counts...it would seem that there are "Keyboard Riders" who do support CvB's training methods. "Keyboard Riders" come with all sorts of opinions! That is what makes COTH interesting! :winkgrin:

FireBreathingMad
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:09 PM
Anky is mentioned numerous times here. And she is synonymous with Rollkur. She is also a top rider. And many here spend time "riding keyboards" bashing both of them. Why not spent the valuable time training. That's what I am about to do.

Kyzteke
Oct. 15, 2007, 12:49 PM
Actually, horses don't think that way at all, they are hardly put together to be capable of thinking like that. they don't connect things up that way or react that way. when is the last time you saw a horse that was tied down on the ground, get up and gratefully nuzzle his master, oh thank you mommy, thank you for releasing me, from now on i'll be a good horsey. rubbish..

slc2, you are wrong (again).

This is an old "western" method of finally breaking a horse and I've seen it used (not on my horses, thank goodness). I've seen very difficult horses roped, pulled down, hog-tied and whacked with ropes while the human sits on their head, then leaves them in that position for several hours.

In both the cases I am personally familiar with (and I'm glad it hasn't been more), the horses turned from "outlaws" to totally non-confrontational animals from then on. They were well & truly "BROKE" -- in spirit and mind.

That IS the point of RK -- TOTAL SUBMISSION.

sm
Oct. 15, 2007, 01:02 PM
That IS the point of RK -- TOTAL SUBMISSION.

I agree. It throws the horse on the forehand, incorrectly sets the neck not at the poll, it ruins the horse's balance and therefore it's freewalks. The thing it does accomplish quite well: submission.

That, and if horses are expected to be seen broken at the 3rd/4th vertebrae, they can be schooled faster and sold at an earlier age for more money -- the globalization of dressage.

It also requires less technique or talent on behalf of the rider to train in this frame -- once again, the globalization of dressage

Dalfan
Oct. 15, 2007, 01:58 PM
What I want to know is - why no investigation into the practices of "ridden" rollkur. Basically the same as what was done to this pony, allbeit in sidereins.

I mean if people get so upset with the pics of P&P, where is the outrage, condemnation, investigations of the under saddle rollkur?

sm
Oct. 15, 2007, 02:04 PM
The FEI isn't doing much, I wonder how much overlap there is on the people sitting on FEI committees and also involved in WB REGISTRIE$$ (see my earlier post re globalization of dressage).

FEI could simply change the points in the test, and rate other aspects higher. That would change the nature of the training on what it takes to win. Or, have the judges enforce the existing rulebook better.

Daydream Believer
Oct. 15, 2007, 03:02 PM
I think I am really over this thread. The side reins were adjusted very tightly- in an extreme position to force submission.

he needs to remember to submit to a rider and let that big fu$$ing neck go and bend it a bit.



Sabine, Haven't you stated before in earlier discussions that you use rollkur as a training method? If so, I'm sure that is a bit of what is behind your post and your comments which I have to say I find disturbing as well. I do not need to use such extreme and abusive training methods to "bend" my stallion's big f**king neck and I'm horrified that anyone could justify such a abusive method for that purpose. Shame!

Sabine
Oct. 15, 2007, 05:20 PM
Sabine, Haven't you stated before in earlier discussions that you use rollkur as a training method? If so, I'm sure that is a bit of what is behind your post and your comments which I have to say I find disturbing as well. I do not need to use such extreme and abusive training methods to "bend" my stallion's big f**king neck and I'm horrified that anyone could justify such a abusive method for that purpose. Shame!

Glad to have provided you all with a post that made your keyboards hum...LOL!

No- I don't use rollkur. No I am not a rollkur fan. Neither am I abusive or a horse hater....but the reactions to my post make it clear that there is not a lot of reality here on this board...too bad...! P&P was sold last Friday- he passed his vetcheck and is on to new owners...with Coby still training him...;)

rcloisonne
Oct. 15, 2007, 08:26 PM
What I want to know is - why no investigation into the practices of "ridden" rollkur. Basically the same as what was done to this pony, allbeit in sidereins.

I mean if people get so upset with the pics of P&P, where is the outrage, condemnation, investigations of the under saddle rollkur?
You might want to check out this blog. And there is a new book out about it titled: "Tug Of War: Classical Versus Modern Dressage" written and illustrated by German veterinarian Gerd Heuschmann.

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2007/10/rollkur-book-slams-overflexion.html

arnika
Oct. 16, 2007, 12:04 AM
by Sabine;
P&P was sold last Friday- he passed his vetcheck and is on to new owners...with Coby still training him...;)


Poor pony.

shade
Oct. 16, 2007, 04:44 PM
[QUOTE=Sabine;2739977]I think I am really over this thread. The side reins were adjusted very tightly- in an extreme position to force submission.
force submission????? guess I've been out of the loop for too long..now we force submission..no thanks..training does not involve forcing a horse to do anything..


- he did not take any harm in this - there was no blood, trauma, yelling or other explosion- like flipping over backwards- if anything - ...and that makes it right how????



also someone of Coby's caliber should KNOW INSTANTLY that the sidereins were improperly adjusted..