Dressage Ponies [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

Daydream Believer

Sep. 21, 2007, 09:38 AM

Promodeus...where are you at and what kind/level of pony do you have? I am mostly just curious from a marketing perspective. If you'd rather PM me, that would be fine.

I was doing market research the other day and tried to find online dressage pony ads the other day and I could not hardly find any. On the classifieds sites, you can search well by breed but try to run a search for dressage or sport pony...forget it. Maybe the danged buyers just can't find those of us with smaller talented propects or trained ponies?

I just ran a search on Dreamhorse for all breeds/dressage/no exclusions and I got over 3000 horses...everything from 120k warmbloods to a 25k gypsy vanner that didn't look like it could move it's way out of a shoebox to $3000 mixed breeds. Just weeding through the clutter on those sites is awful and what if you have a crossbred pony that doesn't fit in a breed category. What drives me crazy are the folks who post partbreds or completely wrong breeds in the wrong categories.

Whatever happened to the sport pony websites and breeders networks that folks were trying to organize a few years ago? For a while it seemed hot and then it fizzled out.

What if we sport pony/hony breeders got more organized and formed a marketing organization like many of the WB breeders have? One place that buyers can come to look at what is available regardless of breed/registry and to showcase ponies/small horses only. I include small horses (cob sized) because they are very hard to find also and generally get lumped with sport ponies also.

I'd do it but I'm struggling to help form a regional organization right now for Colonial Spanish horses and doing expos this Fall so that is taking up most of my time. Perhaps later this winter? What do you all think? Would this help?

Oakstable

Sep. 21, 2007, 11:09 AM

Why not ask Dreamhorse to have a category for Sporthorse Honies?

I am correct in thinking a hony is 14.3H to 15.2?

I suppose starting a web site specifically for the hony would be best, but someone has to have the time to do it, and update it, or have one that is updated by the poster automatically.

This size is perfectly proportional to smaller adults. The marketing angle is Size Matters.

Daydream Believer

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:24 PM

I'm not just talking honies but ponies also. It is very hard to find dressage trained ponies or honies for that matter. Gosh...I hate the term hony and here you have me using it! :-O

I guess we could request categories for sport ponies and perhaps one for smaller sporthorses...or something like that.

I find this interesting in light of Equus' recent article on bigger not being better. I love my little horses also and wish there was a way to better market diminutive equines for sport. Maybe we could use Teddy as our cover boy?

Oakstable

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:49 PM

I hate the word hony too but there have been examples of a diffusing a deragatory name by using it.

I agree that Teddy is the poster boy for a small horse with big talent and heart.

pwynnnorman

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:57 PM

I think that there is more interest in smaller mounts, but I don't think people are actually buying the size yet. They are still buying looks (which includes movement--in the end, it's really just a "look," too), price and training. It's just the nature of today's economy.

But it's never reasonable to say "no one" buys this or that. Some, inevitably, do. But parcelling out just what it is they have bought and why is another thing entirely. Would the same person have bought the same animal if it were 15.1 instead of 14.1? If yes, then it wasn't a dressage pony per se that was bought: it was a small dressage horse. Would the same person have bought the baby if it were $6500 instead of $2500? Would they have bought an ugly-headed but good-moving bay dressage pony with some training on it as readily as the barely-backed but cute, palomino with white?

The only reliable performance-oriented predictor of the dressage pony market IMO is training. Perhaps--and I don't want this to sound insulting, but when you think about the goals of folks seeking a so-called dressage pony, you do have to wonder--what is really growing is the fancy-small-show-horse-that-doesn't-have-to-jump market?

Er, not that there's anything wrong with that.

But, IMO, if you call it a dressage prospect--horse or pony--the assumption is that it is going to be more than just a lower level ride, isn't it? I haven't paid much attention, but surely dressage hasn't gotten to the point where you need to purchase a purpose-bred animal to do the lower levels. One can call it what one wants, but in the end, what's the difference between a pony doing first level (under a rider with few or no aspirations to do much more than that) and a fancy-small-show-horse-that-doesn't-have-to-jump?

AGAIN, not that there's anything wrong with that!

hluing

Sep. 21, 2007, 06:50 PM

Pywnn...good points...and this is indeed a complex question with different levels. I agree people (particularly amy's) buy a look and a movement. Heck, I like a pretty horse too;) That is one reason why I selected the GRP as my breed...they have the look and many have the movement and ability...because as a breeder...I am not breeding for the 1st level pony...I am breeding for the true FEI pony...heck, with the ambition and dreams for the GP pony. Also, as a rider...I want the talented FEI pony....not just the pretty-small-horse- that-does-not-jump...although you are right....there is a market for that too. The truth is many amy dressage riders in the US don't get beyond the lower levels, and neither do thier horses...be they 17hh or 14hh....

It has been very interesting getting my first dressage pony started under saddle. It has been surprising really...some pleasant surprises (like the fact that her gaits...particularly her canter are really amazing under saddle...much better then I would have guessed and she has amazing talent... balance...presence and has an engine I did not expect) and some less pleasant ones (like she is smarter then I thought and does have a bit of "pony-tude";) But...bottom line...she IS a dressage pony...not a pretty-show-horse-that dose-not-jump! Because of this I am investing in quality, prof training to get her started and she is worth it...as she is the talented FEI pony prospect...riding her is a blast!

Now as far as a market...there is the high end market, the mid-market and the low end market. The high end market is small, probably quite regional...but very much alive. Plus, there are kids in that market (gasp)! Case in point...I recently realized a SPS GRP mare I highly admired and knew sold recently for $65 Euro (yes, thats right...not a typo) in a German auction is now right here in Florida!!!!! This family also has several other GRP's. Just one example, but a dramatic one. Now the middle market is also alive and growing...although not as quickly as many of us would like. These are people importing very nice ponies from Germany and breeding high quality ponies with frozen semen associated with a registry OR maybe people like yourself who have bred ponies that have shown a ton of talent!!!! Then there is the low end market...which I supsect is the largest actuallly. Your example of $2500 weanlings or the big headed fairly good moving bay...and of course the now infamous pretty-show-horse-that-does-not-jump;) At least that is my perspective after keeping a finger on the pulse of the dressage pony market for the last 4-5 years....

pwynnnorman

Sep. 21, 2007, 08:24 PM

I think all of that makes a lot of sense, hluing. The fact is that efforts ARE being made to increase the attractiveness of riding a pony for dressage. That's just gotta help. Indeed, this being "the year of the smaller horse" (or whatever the way was that some magazine put it) is another development that has raised awareness and thus, one hopes, desirability.

And as you speak of training your upper level prospect, I'm reminded of something I learned with my own upper level dressage pony (the pony which compelled me to develop my program: War Prince, a gelding): THEY'RE SMART! Y'know how complex the aids can get? Well, that pony blood can go a long way toward not only keeping track of it all, but also not popping a cork while doing so. And the breedier ones can have every bit of the sensitivity as the mostly-hotblooded upper level dressage horses of today, but with a lot more patience and generousity, I think. Granted, the squirrelliness before they are really through can be maybe more challenging to channel than with a larger horse--that built-in flexibility and body awareness can be its own challenge, in fact.

But anyway, the stuff I just wrote reminds me of something: NOT marketing size, but rather marketing PONY. IMO, you can't convince someone to ride smaller--either they are willing or they aren't. But if you emphasize that there's more to a pony than size, maybe--just maybe--you wouldn't have to wait for converts or rely on the dedicated. Heck, the sheer EXPRESSIVENESS of some of the movers that have been posted here and elsewhere, the character, the style, the flair, the "big-ness in a small package" (someone wrote that somewhere about some small horse)...all that stuff, IMO, represent potential key selling points that would be much more effective than the size thing (or size alone).

Size = fit. OK, but that doesn't mean they can't ride something larger, right? So if you can ride large or small, why choose small? WE know...but do they? Those details, Daydream Believer, is the sort of message I'd want to build a campaign around to increase awareness...and then there's visibility, too. Who ARE the current fabulous dressage ponies? Why the heck isn't there a website somewhere featuring them? It's a bit sad that the programs are being put in place to help the dressage pony concept grow, but the "supporting materials," so-to-speak, aren't proliferating to the same extent.

[Now, if Kip at Practical Horseman keeps going with her guy, that, too will help, I think. I enjoyed what she wrote about getting her pony's measurement card this month.]

Daydream Believer

Sep. 21, 2007, 08:48 PM

Well, Wynn...next year I will hit the recognized shows with Cisco. It will be interesting to see how he does. I will have to have him officially measured because I think he is very close to 148cm...he may go one way or the other for horse or pony...sorry hony ;-) I'd like to know even though it won't matter until he makes it to the FEI levels as I don't plan to put a child rider on him at this point in his training and my goals are a lot higher than the FEI pony test.

I do think we pony breeders...and I'm lumping myself in with the pony folks despite the fact mine can and do go oversize and not genetically ponies at all...do a lousy job of promoting ponies for dressage. We are not organized and it is darned hard to find a good place to advertise one. How in the heck are people even going to find our ponies if they don't know where to look. Like I said...assume you are looking for a generic dressage pony or smaller horse of any breed...either elite or plain...how in the world do you find one unless you luck out on it?

I even saw a Chincoteague pony in Dreamhorse for a nice sum...$15k I think it was and it looks like a very nice pony. Now tell me how a perspective dressage pony buyer would ever think to look under Chincoteague breed in Dreamhorse to find a nice pony for dressage? I wouldn't...and sadly same as my breed...still a breed mainly unknown for that sort of thing. Now if that person had a nice place to advertise where buyers would know to look they could put that pony up there with other ponies of other breeds.

I don't see this as a "them against us" or competitive thing to see who can sell their ponies.... If dressage ponies are going to make it in the US it is going to take a cooperative effort to do it.

pwynnnorman

Sep. 21, 2007, 09:24 PM

Well, I stand corrected on one thing: there is a website (Lendon Gray's), and it contains links to all the right stuff, just about--but there's still not much content. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but this was the number on hit for "dressage ponies" on Yahoo: http://www.dressage4ponies.com/

There's NO page coming up for dressage ponies in general on Google. Just news and breeders.

Daydream Believer

Sep. 21, 2007, 10:10 PM

Exactly my point Wynn...there is nothing. I spent a good bit of time looking one day. I'll check out Lendon's site.

Daydream Believer

Sep. 21, 2007, 10:16 PM

I found this site linked to Lendon's. It's pretty basic also but it might improve if she could get more traffic

http://www.ponyworld.net/index.htm

exvet

Sep. 22, 2007, 02:39 AM

Have any of you ever perused horsequest.co.uk ? They have categories set up by breed, discipline but most pertinent to this topic, they have a link just for dressage ponies. I frequently look at it more so for the breed aspect but I will also look at the dressage pony link to see how many (and who) of "my" breed are listed, the level, bloodlines, etc.

I'm also with Heather in that my goals with my "ponies/honies/small horses THAT DO JUMP BUT I DON'T anymore, well except for training purposes, not show - left that life a long time ago" is to ride FEI with them. The high end market that Heather refers to I assume usually focuses on TRAINED ready to show yesterday ponies. Those who contact me to see if I have anything for sale (adults mostly or the occ. kid) want FEI today or at least within 6 months....but often with a twist - they want easier than their current/previous warmblood. While I find ponies/honies "easier" in the sense that I feel at home on them in terms of fit, my truly talented guys are NOT what I would call "easy". They're not rank, not unruly (well maybe opinionated but not dangerous), but not QUIET or work with no back movement. They have big gaits/movement that one has to sit and use core muscles to do so. My guys have thrust and power which scares some people especially if they don't know how to harness it and keep it properly directed. I certainly didn't buy mine as FEI ponies. I purchased youngstock, taking a gamble (or bred them) and trained them up myself. I'm glad some of you are willing to part with yours, already trained, & winning but not me. Those I've kept for myself too. I did sell one trained through second level. He was 14.1 hands but because he could jump he was sold as an eventing prospect to a 13 year old kid who has indeed evented him; otherwise, he would still be here. He was too much for most of the lil' ole ladies who were interested in him as their dressage mount.

I think it gets back to two basic flaws on this side of the pond - no real venue to advertise that gets legitimate play and lack of trainers willing to train or are able to train for those who are actually willing to purchase prospects. How many of those who are calling about prospects/dressage ponies can really train from the ground up on their own? or even with occ help from a trainer/instructor? Not too many in these parts. Most have to send him to the good ole cowboy to be backed and then need (and there are many connotations to that word) a BNT to help them along the rest of the way. I do know more than a few of those BNTs who are not willing to regularly train a pony. They're OK if they have a working student or young assistant but not too many who's willing to do it themselves (and yes, I know the list of those who currently do so). Then of course there is the question that I've asked time and time again, just how many ammy's can really ride a pony/hony/short mount to FEI? And I ask this as a 44 year old wannabe. I think with each question I just keep on trimming away the potential and real market.

Sportpony

Sep. 22, 2007, 07:22 AM

Size = fit. OK, but that doesn't mean they can't ride something larger, right? So if you can ride large or small, why choose small? WE know...but do they?

The one thing I do consistently hear from the adult potential buyer who is contacting me about a "dressage prospect" in a smaller size is "I am not a big person, I am not getting any younger and I am going to have more and more problems grooming, tacking, riding ... and just getting up on ... my [big warmblood/ big TB/ draft cross] ... and it is not FUN any more. I want something that is going to be less difficult for me physically and something I can have fun with again."

This is exactly why I started developing a "sportpony" from my warmblood breeding program when I was in my early 50s ... 15 years ago.

hluing

Sep. 22, 2007, 08:02 AM

Ex-Vet...I wanted to add a twist to the 65 Euro SPS mare imported to Fl...nope not FEI pony...four year old!!!! So, the high end market will buy green too...but it must obviously be simply wonderful. Now even if we bred ponies like that (which we do not currently....even with the thousands bred each year in Germany quality like that is rare) would someone buy it here without the prestigue of a German auction...or even importation??? Many of the higher end ponies I know of being imported are also young, super talents with "the look".

Ex Vet made another good point....my ponies jump too...I just havent since college;)

Pywnn...I am familar with PonyWorld and Lendon's sitre...but unfortunately they are VERY unactive...to the point of being dead. Its too bad because both were good ideas...but it takes a lot of time to make sites like that successful.

You are also right that ponies DO have that something special...the one I was describing earlier always comes running when she sees me. She is perky and full of interest and enthusiasim for life...but not generaly spooky. She does have alot of horse rolled into a small package. Plus sportpony is right...it takes a fraction of the time to groom her...she is easy to mount...takes less space and food then a "big horse", etc. She has many pluses.

But...we do need to mobilize. We do need to network and collectively advertise. We do need to petition our riding associations (like USDF) NOT to exclude us from certain competitions and to make special classes for us if need be. We need pony power;)

pwynnnorman

Sep. 22, 2007, 08:03 AM

The one thing I do consistently hear from the adult potential buyer who is contacting me about a "dressage prospect" in a smaller size is "I am not a big person, I am not getting any younger and I am going to have more and more problems grooming, tacking, riding ... and just getting up on ... my [big warmblood/ big TB/ draft cross] ... and it is not FUN any more. I want something that is going to be less difficult for me physically and something I can have fun with again."

Yes, there are those, but I'd argue, Sharon, that, alas, those folks are not really looking for a dressage pony per se, but rather and indeed the fancy-small-that-doesn't(have to)-jump. As exvet noted about her own:

While I find ponies/honies "easier" in the sense that I feel at home on them in terms of fit, my truly talented guys are NOT what I would call "easy".

I guess I'm thinking of the specialist that would be called a "dressage pony." And I think perhaps I'm just being consistent with my other views on sportponies in general, which I've always felt would be more readily accepted as a specific market if they were NOT considered just generalist ponies (who can't do top-level hunters for whatever reasons). My definition, as I'm sure you recall, is that a sportpony is a pony bred to compete against horses. That means they need to do MORE than average and to do so, they probably have to have a bit of an edge, like exvet's. That edge, which enables them to have a future at piaffe and passage and tempis, for example (good luck trying to generate the engagement and expression needed for those moves without something extra!), doesn't often present itself in the package that "I am not a big person, I am not getting any younger" lady really needs...or wants.

But this is something we've discussed quite a lot, but now in dressage terms: what is a sportpony? What is a "dressage pony"? That lack of distinction (between "it" and other pony types) may even be what is holding back the desirability of the type/talent. IMO, an organization and actively promoted website would/could help reduce that problem--it would go far toward defining the type and what makes it desirable...

But we've been down THAT road already, too, haven't we--and it dead-ended.

slantedhorse

Sep. 22, 2007, 08:29 AM

So if you had a dressage pony prospect to sell or wanted to buy one.....where are some good places to advertise? The market is so small that this seems to be an issue.

Diamantcats

Sep. 22, 2007, 08:58 AM

so intresting it was to read this discussing about dressage pony/hony.
I never have thought if I have seen those in dressage but I knew I had seen stallion at Flyinge stallion pages and when I now checked him out he showed to up to be kind of super pony to :)

heres he and if you downlaod that exe file you get to see pictures and video clips about him and some of his offsprings
http://www.flyinge.se/english/stallions/eng_powerboy.htm

edit:
I wish you all good luck to get ponies/honies more recognized and wanted in dressage in USA

exvet

Sep. 22, 2007, 09:12 AM

You are also right that ponies DO have that something special...the one I was describing earlier always comes running when she sees me. She is perky and full of interest and enthusiasim for life...but not generaly spooky. She does have alot of horse rolled into a small package. Plus sportpony is right...it takes a fraction of the time to groom her...she is easy to mount...takes less space and food then a "big horse", etc. She has many pluses.

I agree that they do have something special but for me it's not that they are easier to tack up (which I agree they are - no step stool or Jose or Juan needed to do it), fit almost any trailer, not so far to fall (actually I still use a mounting block & don't come off all too often), and take less water to bathe.......so while the size is everything to me and became such a long time ago.........I'm attracted to them....... because they have that spark...that extra something that screams LOOK AT ME. Mine have that mischievous look, that short-man syndrome, where they puff up as they go down centerline because "He's all that" or "She's all that" whichever the case may be. Sure they may look like the "Cuddles" the pony standing out in turnout or even standing in the crossties (that's because mine are welsh and/or Arab) or in the case of one, should be pulling a wagon; but, I confirm which ones are "the one" or have that "extra something" when they create lots of talk, exclamations from onlookers and/or when I have people follow me from the show arena or the warm up to ask their breeding, how tall are they, etc. Not really sure how you advertise or market that without proof in the pudding so-to-speak, which to me is lots of shows, lots of [good] scores against the big guns, lots of picture showing participation (that means selection to be in) the big name events like the USDF sponsored clinics, etc. Also must say that when you ride at the edge of the envelope like that you also have to be willing to accept, make/take some public set backs as well - there's more than one of mine that can clean out the warm up arena when the "tude" is less than cooperative ;)

Rainbow Farm Unltd.

Sep. 22, 2007, 09:42 AM

I don't think of them as dressage ponies per se, because I prefer the term sport pony (North America) and riding pony (Europe). Sport ponies should have the conformation, movement and talent to do dressage and run and jump. I certainly don't see much of a market for dressage specialists at the point, and sure, there are some out there and some people (small adults mostly) competing with them, but I'll bet the majority for sale are babies, and I'd also bet the majority of the "dressage ponies" out there can run and jump as well. I think being dressage specific for ponies is pretty limiting for marketing.

pwynnnorman

Sep. 22, 2007, 11:16 AM

Where to market them? I think it is more a matter of HOW.

IMO, we/you (I don't breed dressage ponies per se) need to...

1.) Compete them against horses because pony divisions require kids; kids aren't a huge market; kids will see the ponies in the regular divisions, too; kids' parents will see 'em there, too; most buyers will be smaller women; and, most importantly, they'll attract more attention to themselves warming up against horses. That's where you'll get folks coming up with an interest in getting one for themselves.

2.) Get a big name on your best pony (yup, speaking from experience). Again, the notoriety will not only convince folks to consider the dressage pony instead of horse, but YOUR program instead of just any.

3.) Share. If your program doesn't have what someone needs, send 'em to someone else who might--or give them a number of other possibilities. The more who consider, the more who might buy. In the long run, it'd be better help them find a dressage pony than have them buy a horse. Moreover, if they are uncertain about yours, seeing others might convince them that yours is the best. Also, post others ponies on your website--or create a special "dressage ponies for sale" website that includes past sales and/or currently winning ponies (success stories). In other words, do your part in widening the base.

The problem with non-hunter pony breeders is that we simply suck at doing business, as a group. We cannot for the life of us get together and stay together--and we absolutely do not invest--literally "invest" $$$--in anything cooperative. If you look at successful hunter programs, VBPA being the one I always bring up, but even WB breeders groups--you see folks putting money where there mouths are. We put money into our own efforts, but do not see eye-to-eye enough to join forces. I've always equated it, quite frankly, with too much of the DQ syndrome (since most "sportpony" breeders are more into dressage than anything else), but these days, seeing how WB breeder groups who should have a similar syndrome holding them back nevertheless have moved forward, I no longer think it is DQ'ism. I'm not sure what it is now, especially now that there are more opportunities, too.

pwynnnorman

Sep. 22, 2007, 11:17 AM

BTW, Barb: "I'd also bet the majority of the "dressage ponies" out there can run and jump as well." Keep in mind that I didn't say the ponies couldn't jump, I focused on the BUYERS not needing a pony that did. Indeed, that's exactly what the article in--what magazine was it? PH?--stated. Lemme see if I can find it.

Daydream Believer

Sep. 22, 2007, 12:57 PM

But...we do need to mobilize. We do need to network and collectively advertise. We do need to petition our riding associations (like USDF) NOT to exclude us from certain competitions and to make special classes for us if need be. We need pony power;)

Well said! I agree...we need more classes for ponies. I once approached Janine Malone about the Raleigh Show and offering pony classes in hand and she said that all it would take is someone to sponsor them. A Sport Pony Breeders organization could do just that or perhaps a farm interested in some promotion as a sponsor. I may look into doing that next year as a promotional opportunity not just for our farm but for our rare breed and regional organization. I don't think it is outragiously expensive either to sponsor a class and I'd love to take some of my youngsters down to show them off.

What other breeding shows are there besides Raleigh? Devon? Any others focusing on dressage type movement?

Another thought is that those of us with competing ponies should do everything in our power to support what Lendon is trying to do. Haul up to her pony dressage show next summer. After some of the trips I've been on this summer So. VA to NY is a short hop. I could take my stallion and a 4 year old that I am starting now. By then he should be doing at least training level and the stallion hopefully second level. Is Lendon OK with oversized ponies coming I wonder? I would not mind an opportunity to show off some sales ponies either! ;)

I feel like Exvet...I got into my little horses for myself initially...I enjoy riding the little horses much more than the large ones and I find their compact size easier over all. It a long story how I came to become involved with the Colonial Spanish horses but I did it for the same reasons you all chose Cobs or GRP's or bred your own sport ponies from crosses. I also hope to help a rare breed at the same time that I feel deserves a better chance than they've been given in the past to show what they can do.

As for training ponies, I can do it and I like to do it...much more so that full sized horses. I am taking on outside horses right now and trying to build that aspect of my farm business and those in the Mid Atlantic area that might be interested should let me know. I am 5'4" and weigh about 110 lbs so I can ride mediums.. I also am not a "cowboy" type and lean much more towards traditional slower methods of training than the have-it-done-in-a-day crowd. I just thought I'd mention that as someone brought it up earlier.

Good discussion and hopefully we can get some good things happening soon.

foxcreek

Sep. 22, 2007, 01:26 PM

WOW This has been a great discussion. And I have so many thoughts that I'm not sure I can put them all down in one post. With three kids sometimes I find it hard to find the time to sit at the computer long enough to read and write without being interrupted!!

Hluing, what SPS pony mare are you talking about from the auction? The 4 yr. old Sally K is the only one I know of - is that the mare you are talking about? If so, she sold for 17,500 Euro which is roughly $24,500 USD. Also, she is not a States Premium mare. She is a Verbandspremium mare which is one quality level BELOW States Premium. Maybe there is a different mare I'm unaware of?

I think Pwynn is hitting it on the head. And that is actually why I started the discussion. I am keenly aware of the "hunter pony" market because I have a "hunter pony" trainer at my barn. There is a huge market for "hunter ponies" because they have done a superb job of "marketing" hunter ponies. HOW? There are SHOWS for "hunter ponies". And not just any show...there are big, prestigious championship shows that kids want to get to. That means there is a circle of money: an incentive for trainers to train kids, there is an incentive for kids to train, and there is a place for parents to go to watch their kid and stand there with a silly grin on their face feeling proud (I know I'm one of the silly grin parents!:D) - which circles around to creating an incentive for trainers to train kids (because the silly grinning parents will pay for it). Talk about a/a small women all you want - ponies are for kids. And if we want to really be able to successfully breed, market, and sell our dressage/sport/jumper ponies (whatever you want to call them) we need to start creating a market for the kids.

I hear all the time - kids aren't interested in dressage. That's not the case in Europe. And there is plenty of jumping going on in Europe to distract them from dressage. It's not the case with my 12 yr. old son. When he feels something that he got "right" on the flat he gets very excited and then he starts having a "silly grin". The problem is there are no opportunities for the kids to walk away with 35 cent ribbons. There is no financial incentive for trainers to train these kids because there are no shows for trainers to take kids to, to make money.

Call the hunter pony thing a racket if you want - with the trainers, the shows, etc, etc...BUT, the fact of the matter is it has created a "hunter pony market" - and a good one! If you are a kid in this country and you want to ride "english" - I'll bet 9 times out of 10 you are going to end up riding "hunter".

If we breeders and promoters of the "sport pony" truly want to see a market grow and flourish in this country for the disciplines (dressage, jumpers, eventing) other than "hunter" (which by the way, I have absolutely no problem with), then we are going to have to as Pwynn has stated, organize and band together. There needs to be a prestigious championship for dressage - just for ponies - developed in the same manner as the Pony Hunter Finals are run. Did you know that there were some 400 kids and their ponies at the Pony Hunter Finals in KY? Could you imagine if there were even half that number at say a Dressage Pony Finals? Imagine all the future adult dressage talent that would grow up from that! Imagine all the future dressage trainers, riding instructors, professional competitors that would spawn - then we might really be able to give Europe a run for the money! Think about how many future Debbie McDonald's might be out there competing in a Pony Dressage Final as a young 9 yr. old! Just as hundreds and hundreds of professionals have grown out of the hunter ponies.

I know, we have the Jr. Young Riders programs. But that doesn't affect kids until they are 14-16 depending on the program. And by then, you are expected to be riding a big, fancy, expensive warmblood. What about everyone under 14 that should be on a pony? That is where the real, big market for sport - dressage - ponies lies. I just returned home from a trip to Germany. And as many other people before me have observed their kids are amazing riders. They have no problem riding a pony until they are ready to move up to a horse. There are dressage shows for ponies there the way there are hunter shows for ponies here. We need to CREATE an INCENTIVE, we need to CREATE the DEMAND.

And now, I'm having the problem I referred to earlier - kids are screaming, husband wants to know what I'm wasting my time doing while the baby needs changing.....gotta go. Hope I haven't screwed up in my first big foray into online forum discussions.

hluing

Sep. 22, 2007, 03:49 PM

Foxcreek...nope...not Sally K...a different auction (I can PM you the details) but it was 65,000Euros!!! I hate specificly talking about other people's ponies and $$ on a BB...so I will leave it general. If anyone is as much of a computer geek about researching ponies as I am...they could figure it out;)

Now I agree with what you are saying about hunter ponies and creating something similar for dressage ponies...but I strongly disagree "ponies are for kids". At least only for kids. Sorry, but I am sick to death of trying to ride huge wb's when I am a small person...and many other breeders/riders feel the same way. So something has to be done for adults and ponies as well. I personaly think we need young pony classes, similar to the FEI YH class or BC class, where adults can compete young ponies...mainly because we Cant't ride in the FEI Young Horse Classes. After that I am fine competing with the "big boys". I am happy to promote ponies for kids too...and think that it would be a huge boon to promoting better US riders in the long haul...

dr j

Sep. 22, 2007, 04:13 PM

Sassenach

Sep. 22, 2007, 04:26 PM

Haven't had a chance to read this whole thread yet but do recall last year at the USEF meeting I believe there was some talk about trying to promote the dressage pony - I think Lendon Gray was involved.

I think more and more people will be looking for smaller horses/ponies. I know my own vet clientele is very interested in smaller sport horses.

Not sure how many are familiar with Jake but I am fairly sure a few moer like him would be appreciated. I do believe he is 15 hands- actually a small horse.

http://www.fairfieldphoto.com/photocart/index.php?do=photocart&viewImage=19098

I know Shammer Jake :yes: lovely Connemara boy. Unfortunately his sire - Irish import *Ballinaboy Eamonn recently died and didn't leave behind a stallion son to continue his line. What a shame he had lovely bloodlines and he was an athlete that produced very good athletes too!

I am a small perosn - 4'10 and I will tell you I will never want to own anything bigger than a hony. It's good for me that my family is 2nd generation Connemara Pony breeders - I joke I came pony sized! :lol::lol:

tempichange

Sep. 22, 2007, 05:43 PM

I'll toss in my hat at this one, Hluing, ExVet and myself have tossed the idea of a pony championship (or show if I remember correctly) around sometime ago. We need more help, if anything more support to push through to for this. Unfortunately this kinda got put on the back burner due to a few things that popped up on my end.

But count me in for anything that needs to be done.

exvet

Sep. 22, 2007, 07:23 PM

Yup, Tempichange I'm still right there with you. I would be willing to help support/sponsor a pony/hony (sorry but I have those that fall both under 14.2 and those over that are still a pony breed) dressage class/championship/young horse (PONY/HONY) exclusive in a cooperative effort if we could get together on this. I have a daughter who is riding a pony (147 cm) currently but she will age out in 2 years and she's already 5'6". Trust me she didn't get the height from her mother ;) For that reason and the fact that I did get into all of this for me, me, me, I would not be interested in something that is for kids only. . Not that I exclude kids from the equation but long after my kids are grown and gone I'm still going to be raising, riding and showing my ponies/honies like I was when I brought them into this world, God willing. I think by focusing on kids only or small adults only you're eliminating a portion of an already small market. I would love to haul to something like this and show my own but I work full-time as a vet and simply cannot take that kind of time off. I do pretty well just campaigning in my own little corner of the world because I can do it and cover the clinic without losing my job or driving my clinic into the ground. I train but only my own, don't ever plan to make the horses my source of income even though I own a stallion and plan to show/breed him. I love this hobby too much ;) to force anything but I would be willing to contribute as much as feasible as well as do some leg work if needed. Of course if we could do something closer to home then who knows maybe my kids (4 and 2 legged) and I could participate too. Any thoughts or ideas on how to get started......yes, pwynn, that's coming from a DQ, thoroughly self-absorbed but admittedly white trash version of one, and willing to promote smaller dressage mounts in a competitive venue against the big guys/guns!?!

foxcreek

Sep. 22, 2007, 10:51 PM

Hluing, Yes I agree with you about talking publicly about other people's horse purchases - I wouldn't have done it except that all of the information I stated is already public knowledge and anyone can look it up on the auction website.

Okay, let me clarify something I said. Although my post was extremely slanted to kids let me clarify that I do not believe ponies to be ONLY for kids. It does seem to me though that - particularly in the dressage world - kids are forgotten. And, as most of the people, including myself, discussing this topic are also breeders of ponies my point was that we need to have a market for our ponies, and kids are a potentially big market - as demonstrated by the hunter world. I don't want to exclude anybody. But in terms of building a market for the future - and I'm talking 20-30 years down the road - focusing on a/a and overlooking the kids, I think, is a big mistake. Because here's the thing: those same kids will eventually be the trainers of fellow kids that grew up to be small adult amateur women. And if the trainers had great experiences with ponies for dressage as kids and KNOW what they can do from personal experience, they will be encouraging to everyone who wants to, to ride a pony - whether that person is an a/a or a kid or anybody else not in the previous two categories.

I should also add that I agree that "hony's" should also be promoted. I think it is sad how many really great horses and over-grown ponies 14.3-15.2 are underutilized because they don't fall into the "right" size category. So, while we're at it, we should just go ahead and set an example and at this show we are all going to join forces to put together we should have "small horse" classes!! :winkgrin:

eventmom

Sep. 23, 2007, 12:31 PM

Amen about kids foxceek. My daughter events. We have gone through a fair number of trainers in her short life. Virtually every one has started her dressage lesson's appologizing about how "boring" it is! I don't think so! Nor does my daughter. While my daughter may be a good rider, she is just an average kid who quickly figured out that dressage was her ticket to true communication with her pony, and it was going to get her where she wanted to jump to!
Why do American's think that dressage is supposed to be boring to kids. STOP shooting yourselves in the foot guys. A good dressage pony is a GOOD pony that knows how to listen to its rider, and use its body properly.
I wish there was more support and a different attitude towards kids riding in this country.

exvet

Sep. 23, 2007, 02:25 PM

My daughter rides and shows. When she started I expected that she would turn her eye towards the hunter circuit, something I would support but not what I'm interested in - been there, done that, was glad to leave it. However, I was a daredevil kid. I was jumping picnic tables, truck beds, hay trailers, whatever I could with my ponies and horses. I saw dressage as torture but then I did it simply so my intructor would allow me to go out on her cross country course. My instructor at the time was Marcia Kulak's mother for those who know eventing - that was many, many years ago. Much to my surprise, all my daughter has ever wanted to do is dressage <period>. I actually have found quite a few kids through my daughter who like dressage, or at least the idea of it. They do tend to be the more driven, perfectionist types - big surprise; however, it is the lack of tolerance of the DQs that I think keeps more kids away. I've been showing with my kids often in tow for years. Though my kids have only been showing themselves for the last few years, they are no strangers to the dressage scene - both big and small shows. The reception that my kids use to get (more people know me now, recognize them and keep their mouths shut) was horrible. Now don't get me wrong....my kids were always in my sight, knew how to handle themselves, and were more afraid of what I would do to them than dare take a step out of line or make an unnecessary peep at a show. Even so, my son has been yelled at for simply walking down a public drive at a show, behind my horse, following me back to my stall, in total silence simply for being a small person. He was told to stop and stand in his tracks because his being there was simply mind boggling to this DQ primadona's horse. He did what he was told without saying a word and then caught up behind me once the "nice lady" passed. My daughter has been yelled at for simply walking past a stall that someone was braiding their horse in. She walked by the horse picked up his head, the nice DQ lady dropped her braid and my daughter was given a 10 minute tirade on how kids need to be under lock and key if they must be brought to shows (she was 11 at the time). Oh and I was in the next stall braiding my horse. My daughter was simply walking down the aisle to the shared trash can to throw away MY trash. I'm afraid it's not the discipline itself that keeps kids away, it's the people. My kids go to the shows now and ride/walk around pretty much left alone but I have no doubt the uninvited comments and opinions would still fly if some of the "wonderful ladies" I ride against didn't see me or know that I am right around the corner. I tolerate a lot but no one messes with my horse(s) nor my kids :mad:

So not to digress, I do support kids and ponies in dressage or eventing for that matter; but, these ponies, the real superstars need to be trained by adults long before they find themselves in the hands of kids. If we don't get the adults hooked on them first and show their ability to shine through against the big guns it won't matter. The kids are going to go the path of least resistance and greatest rewards and if the adults think that it's the full size warmblood that gets you the ticket so will the kids. I live in the other silicone valley and the vast majority of kids who ride dressage here ride HORSES not ponies - in order to be competitive, because it's easier to find a schoolmaster horse for a kid than a pony, because if a parent (especially one without a horse background) is convinced to drop $30,000 on a mount for the kid they want something that they at least perceive their kids won't outgrow or one their trainer says has an easier resale potential - bigger animal = more market. I know parents on the hunter circuit drop more on kids' ponies but that's a machine that has been well greased and oiled for many, many years. NO, I'm sorry I don't agree that the focus needs to be primarily on kids. It needs to include kids but we need to get these ponies trained and out there - there are fewer capable dressage pony jocks around than there are the huntseat kind - let's not lose sight of the fact that we're talking FEI potential and beyond.

goodpony

Sep. 23, 2007, 02:35 PM

Yesterday I was at one of our largest local events which happens to be a schooling Event for Junior Riders. It was Awesome to see the kids out in force and nearly all were riding 'american bred' sport ponies/honies of various types and sizes. There were certainly some fabulous show type ponies but the majority of competitors were riding cross bred sport ponies---your basic versatile all rounder with a fair bit of type and quality....competitive show ponies in other words. I know several of the families and many of them do compete in recognized dressage as well as combined training and participate in a number of Pony Club activities.

Here in California the CDS offers High Point Pony awards at its recogonized shows as well as a High Point Pony Dressage year end award. I believe the recognition is open for both juniors and adults competing on ponies in USDF/CDS affiliated dressage. I have attended enough of our regional USDF recognized dressage competitions to know that there are a large number of Juniors regularly competing open dressage most below 2nd level...but rarely do you see adults competing on the ponies. I have seen two imported "dressage ponies' and both were challenging rides...one is ridden by a trainer and the other a very highly 'educated'/dedicated junior. Only one is currently competing at 3rd level.

Sportpony

Sep. 23, 2007, 03:58 PM

Where to market them? I think it is more a matter of HOW.

IMO, we/you (I don't breed dressage ponies per se) need to...

1.) Compete them against horses because pony divisions require kids;

2.) Get a big name on your best pony (yup, speaking from experience).

3.) Share.

I definitely agree with all of these things ...

1) Started with my foundation Connemara stallion, who is just a bit over 13.2 hands. He competed with a small adult in both dressage and green hunters ... and won his first green hunter class against warmblood and TB horses. My younger Connemara stallion (14.1) is now going under saddle with a warmblood breeder who has a small "sportpony" program and we expect him to start showing in dressage next spring.

2) No "big name" ponies yet ... but I do have a page on my website where I showcase homebreds that are "Out and About".

3) This is something I'm working on and have a special "program" for. I sometimes "find" a younger, dedicated rider ... usually but not specifically limited to a child rider ... who has the talent and dedication to succeed at the higher levels but does not have the horse/pony or the financing to invest in a "top level" prospect. In several cases, I've had something that would work and have arranged a long term free-lease or outright gift of a promising young horse.

I consider this my "long term investment" in future advertising but it has also been a great source of personal pleasure for me as well.

eventmom

Sep. 23, 2007, 05:42 PM

these ponies, the real superstars need to be trained by adults long before they find themselves in the hands of kids. If we don't get the adults hooked on them first and show their ability to shine through against the big guns it won't matter. The kids are going to go the path of least resistance and greatest rewards and if the adults think that it's the full size warmblood that gets you the ticket so will the kids. I live in the other silicone valley and the vast majority of kids who ride dressage here ride HORSES not ponies - in order to be competitive, because it's easier to find a schoolmaster horse for a kid than a pony, because if a parent (especially one without a horse background) is convinced to drop $30,000 on a mount for the kid they want something that they at least perceive their kids won't outgrow or one their trainer says has an easier resale potential - bigger animal = more market.
Great post exvet. Thing is, when you are talking about ponies with adults putting the training on, your starting to talk big price tags. And your right, this can be a hard sell when ponies are, or can be outgrown so quickly. Seems like the only way to overcome this is to do what the hunters did and create an industry where $30,000 seems like a steal!

Tiki

Sep. 23, 2007, 05:44 PM

I'm crossing really top GRP's, or excellent quality ponies approved as GRP's to my top dressage mares now and calling them Cob-sized Warmbloods. I think it is much more important to market ponies and cob-sized horses together than just ponies. It would be very easy to market them together and on THAT site separate them as pony sized and 'oversize'. But they WON'T be the traditional 'horse'.

Yes, a lot of older women, including me, want smaller sized 'horses' to ride, and they want GOOD ones, but they don't necessarily want ponies, per se. Marketing them together gives buyers a chance to pick up a really nice sport pony for a kid, an oversize for a larger or older kid, or a very, very nice oversize, but not big, horse for a smaller or older adult.

hluing

Sep. 23, 2007, 06:19 PM

OK...so what is the next step foe getting USDF to start up pony and small horse classes. While I agree in theroy that they should go together...small horses ARE currently allowed to compete in the FEI YH classes...only ponies are excluded...and I know that is by FEI rukles so nothing we can do about that. However, USDF could establish Young Pony Classes.

tempichange

Sep. 23, 2007, 06:24 PM

I remember now where we left right off;) I think the next step is to actually have a USDF/EF show as the championship itself, as in minimum qualifying scores, temp cards and perm cards, and some official sponsorship of some sort. I would love to have this held in conjunction or right after the "main" YH championships. If there is to be a show, we need a host and we need to talk to somebody... fast.

exvet

Sep. 23, 2007, 07:11 PM

However, USDF could establish Young Pony Classes.

I really like Tiki's idea because that's where I'm at. I have those that currently would measure within and those that are pony breeds but go over; yet, would never be legitimately accepted in the Young Horse circles if they had the talent and personally I think my stallion does but that's a whole 'nuther story. If it's USDF/USEF deemed and FEI has no say in the matter why would we have to limit it to just ponies, ie, 148/149 cm & under? I understand trying to create something for an excluded group but honestly do you really think we're going to see a 15 hand welsh cob in the Young Horse Championships?....and before anyone says it's because they don't have what the warmbloods have, there are those that meet the criteria or they wouldn't also be registered GRP, now would they? Call it [the championship/division or class] whatever you want to make it catchy, appealing and identifiable (I'm not into marketing/advertising as you can tell) but if we're at the ground level why can't we simply state the height restriction would include either up to 15 or 15.2 hands - or - those pony breeds that go over? I know there are GRPs that exceed the limit. They would be included too assuming they aren't 16 hands ;) I really don't see where this would have to be an either/or situation, plus you would/could have kids and adults (who are NOT midgets like me) who could also participate. Though I have a 14.1 hand mare who carried a 5'11" rider easily and looked pretty balanced, I'd like to make this such that we keep our options, marketing potential and appeal as open as possible without losing sight of quality - conformation, gaits, rideability & training in a SMALL PACKAGE - ponies & Cob-size critters

hluing

Sep. 23, 2007, 07:30 PM

Well...I am the first to say that I *hate* the obsession with exact size...148 vs 150...
But, I still say if you are over 148cm you are set in being able to compete in YH classes. I would for sure compete my ponies in those classes if they were over pony. That being said...we need to appeal to as many people as we can at this point...

How about just calling in the "Young Pony Championship" and accepting either pony size or pony breed papers with maybe a max size of 15.1 or so...???

pwynnnorman

Sep. 23, 2007, 08:24 PM

Or maybe more now, when HBO actually sponsored one of the first pony jumper divisions at WEF (and some sunglass company--is that Maui Jim or something???), I posted on the previous incarnation of USHJA BB (remember that one??) that if each of us (sportpony breeders) got together and donated $1000 toward an award, we'd have a pot large enough to insist that the then-USHJA offer it. The fact is that if there is money behind it, the organizations WILL offer it--and if there is extra money to pay to promote it, it will be promoted, too. So say now that there are more breeders out there, why not put up ONE STUD FEE? Just one, each year or whatever. If your stallion doesn't attract one full-paying mare per year, then you've got a legit reason not to participate. But if your stallion gets that one, single mare, what difference to your coffers will that single stud fee make? And the more mares he attracts, even less a difference would it make. The AQHA folks have recognized that for years.

And then, of course, there my Sportpony of the Year Award, which I will not trot out yet AGAIN, as I have for a couple of years now, too, every time this subject comes up. Why haven't I offered it yet? Money. Teddy's syndication still isn't complete, nor is the automobile lawsuit I was hoping to use to fund it. And so I trot it out every opportunity I get with the hope that some individual or business will happen upon it and decide it's worthy of their support. And so, without further ado, here it is AGAIN:

The Sportpony of the Year Award

This annual award will feature $6000 in prize money (I am setting aside $10-12K specifically to support the entire program, including promoting it—I will escrow the funds if that will encourage the support and recognition of USEF). The Sportpony of the Year Award will honor that "small, athletic horse" which best represents the concept of a sportpony. Recognition will be awarded in three categories (eventing, dressage and jumpers), with $2000 distributed between a winner, runner-up and two honorable mentions.

It is important to note that this will NOT be "just another award." It is designed (and here, I'll trot out my credentials to emphasize the point) by a Ph.D. public relations ex-professional and current academic, who sincerely wants to encourage and honor those who support the concept of the sportpony. However, the ultimate goal of this award is to promote sportponies (and their sports) to the outside world, not just offer an award to insiders.

Qualifying for the Award
Please notice that the term "pony" is not used in identifying equines qualified for this award. This has been decided to avoid the measurement challenges that complicate offering exclusively "pony" opportunities. Those who nominate and those who select will decide on their own how best to interpret what a sportpony is, including what should be height limits (which, conceivably, could vary by discipline and even year by year, depending on who is nominated and the stories behind them). For the purposes of this award, a sportpony is just a "small, athletic horse," regardless of whether it is an actual pony or not. Nor will this award be based on points because that, too, gets into problems with (financial) opportunity. Instead, this award will solicit nominations from any and all individuals who want to see a "small athletic horse" honored. Nominating such a horse/pony will involve filling out a detailed form and providing photographs (with releases).

Promoting the Award and Equine Sports
The form is critical because it asks specific questions about the nominee that will lead to entertaining, human interest stories that can be placed in the press: equine, local and general. The “local” aspect introduced here is critical. It refers to submitting releases and/or articles to each nominee's hometown press. Going "local" is something that we don't do well in promoting equestrian sports because it involves a few extra steps of researching who to send a release to based on what can be very individualized details. However, not only will this award’s the nominating form obtain that information (instead of the writer having to research it), but going local will also be a very important aspect of promoting the sports themselves since the local audience can actually go out and see what they’ve read about. As a result, every nominee becomes a local (and beyond, if possible) "ambassador," not only for sportponies, but also for the sport(s) they compete in.

Choosing the Winners
How will the winners be decided? Ideally, this program will be packaged in such a way that it will attract a few significant professionals each year to participate on a committee which will choose honorees in each category. Not only will the involvement of these professionals add legitimacy and credibility to the effort, it will also further the promotion and support of the sportpony concept. How the committee ends up choosing the winners in each category would be left entirely up to them. They would, of course, be supplied with basic guidelines and the information from the nomination forms, but beyond that, the popularity or significance or poignance of the horses'/ponies' achievements (and the stories behind them) would be the ultimate influences on their final decisions.

Establishing and Sponsoring the Award
The ideal way to get this award off the ground would be to have USEF sanction it in some way. However, it may be necessary prove to them first that it will work, where “work” is defined as showing the award to be worth the organization’s support by the publicity and sponsorship it generates. With its emphasis on article placement (getting stories into the press) this award should indeed attract sponsorship in future years. Unless an organization not yet approached (such as the American Sport Pony Registry) agrees at least nominally (without financial responsibilities, that is) to sponsor the award in the first year, it will be sponsored by Sportponies Unlimited. Sponsors will benefit significantly because very article generated by the program will close with a boilerplate statement about the award and its sponsor, all photographs will include the sponsor’s logo and all references to the award will involve the sponsor’s name.

Tiki

Sep. 23, 2007, 11:05 PM

I actually like the idea of including equines that are from 14.0 - 15.3 hands. Most people seem to consider anything smaller than 16 hands to be somewhat unacceptable. Anything smaller can usually not be ridden by an adult, and they just aren't big enough to have the really good gaits, and those that go oversize are perfect for teens through smaller, or older, adults.

The GRP's often go over because they are bred to BE 148cm. When you breed for the max you can easily go oversize. They are not bred smaller because to borrow a word from the hunter world, they don't have the 'step'.

Centerline Farm

Sep. 24, 2007, 12:35 AM

I have been reading these posts with interest since I really, really love the GRP pony and GRP type. I have really thought and thought about breeding them for myself and my daughter to sell rather than the WBs that we have now just because they look like so much fun.

However.

I just don't see them being that popular for dressage. The difference between a 15.3 - 16 hand horse (my perfect size) and a 14.2 hand is HUGE. I ride both and the feeling just is not there. I LOVE to jump my 14.3 hand hony. She is the best and flies over 3'6" (as high as I am willing to go right now) with amazing ability and she can get me out of tight spots with no problem. But dressage? It just is not the same.

As for kids, well, come on. How many of you actually have kids that ride? I see a few of you do. But I think those of you who are prattling about dressage for kids are never actually around any. I am. A lot of them. And the vast, vast majority of kids want to do hunters. It is fun. It is easy. You can enter 12 classes (or more) per day (more chance for ribbons!) and you can basically just steer and stand up over the jumps. You get to wear cool jackets (tweed is really in) you can get all different types of tack with different color embroidery on the nose bands for your horse. You can be really successful with a crappy OTTB or QH as long as it has a steady rhythm and a level head...
What could be better!!??

Those sport ponies are just too dang hot and go-y for 99% of the NA kids. They just are not fun. For adults they are just too small to really give a good feeling of suspension.

Unless you want to breed 15.2 handers. Well, then they are not really ponies are they? They are small horses. Perhaps a small horse division is what you are thinking. But ponies are 14.2 and under. Period. Otherwise you might just call everything under 16 hands a pony and be done with it.

I know those of you who breed dressage ponies are really hoping it will be the next Freisian thing. And maybe it is. But if ponies were ever going to be popular, they probably would have been back when Lendon was so very successful on one...

Tiki

Sep. 24, 2007, 12:40 AM

Actually, Seldom Seen was 14.3h and not a pony. And YES, she was very successful on a hony!

Centerline Farm

Sep. 24, 2007, 12:45 AM

I know. I don't think anyone does not know who Seldom Seen was...at lest anyone over the age of 30 anyways...But you have proven my point...

1) she was not even a pony
2) there does not seem to be a lineup at the dressage shows of people looking or wanting ponies to ride - even when a successful rider was winning at the level Seldom Seen was being shown at...

hluing

Sep. 24, 2007, 06:17 AM

Centerline...I am wondering if you have ridden the RIGHT ponies;) I used to have your concerns...before I went to Germany and rode MANY ponies (all under 14.2) that were such a good ride I would hav given my eyeteeth to take home!!! Listen, I am no dressage hack...I ride I-1 and am hoping to move up higher this year. I would not be wasting my time..heck devoting all of my free time..to raising these ponies if I did not belive they were a heck of a dressage ride. My first foal turned out smaller then I expected....she is three now and 13.2hh. I was bummed about that until I saw her going u/s and then I was even more excited when I rode her. This little maree has dressage stamped all over her. My trainer too was amazed...despite her size and our weight...she has been very balanced since the beginning and has one of the best (uphill, powerful)canter I have ever sat.

Now as to the championship...I had a thought. Why not start open...like even up to 15.2 (which honestly I think is a bit silly) IF they are a pony breed. Then...when we get it established we break it up by size. That would make us inclusive and give us time to attract some numbers first. Then it could be broken up to S/M/L and Oversized. What do you guys think?

hluing

Sep. 24, 2007, 06:19 AM

I have to add here after reading Centerlines' last post...the most attention I have ever seen anyone get at a show was at Del mar Nationals a couple year ago when my friend had her GRP stallion Lateran there. She had a fan club following her around and was always surrounded by people wanting to know about her pony. Of course I think he ended up winning 2nd level...so he is quite a pony!

pwynnnorman

Sep. 24, 2007, 07:38 AM

Great post, Centerline. Brutally frank, reality-based.

I've never felt dressage sportponies suited kids. Not OUR kids. Not today. You see the trend everywhere (and not jsut in kids either, of course): people want easy and fun, instant gratification. There are GRPs out there doing well in hunters. When someone shows pictures a GRP loping around low-headed with a kid on its back followed by pictures of the same pony going up-headed down to a big jump or doing piaffe with a kid on its back, those images MIGHT convince some that they aren't too much pony and that kids would enjoy dressaging with them.

Then, too, there's the problem with the lower levels where you just don't need what the purpose-bred dressage pony offers. I know, I know. You've heard me say this before, but it bears remembering: there's no reason why any decent mover, including a good hunter pony, can't be very successful at the levels of dressage that most kids and adults would want to do. A good mover is a good mover--the rest is just training (at the lower levels). That hurts the dressage pony market, IMO. Just like the horse market, how many--comparatively--buy for the upper levels? Upper levels require purpose-breeding. Lower levels don't...

Except, IMO, in jumping competitions, to a certain extent. I'm beginning to think (well, er, "hope" might be a better word) that the reliable jumping pony might have a role to play in the future when hunters and dressage price themselves out of the market for the majority. I see those sports as becoming so specialized as to become hyper-elitist, turning off and turning away significant numbers NOT because they can't afford, but because they don't like--the attitude or the atmosphere. As money becomes tight, I think more people will want to have FUN first and foremost--and be rewarded for their fun, not just what they spent (in time and money).

I think the fun horse sports are going to surpass the elite ones eventually because the fun ones will give folks more for their money.

In the day of Chuck Grant, I was a dressage fanatic. It was a sport about training, so if you could train, you could advance. Now, it's become a sport about type--not unlike hunters: if you can buy the type (trained and/or pay someone else to train it), you can advance. Type is expensive--the best hunter ponies are super expensive because they are from bloodlines that are extremely consistent in type.

Sound familiar? That's exactly how WB breeders, quite rightfully, justify the value of their inspections and worshipping of pedigree. (Which, again, I RESPECT--I've been taught by this BB to understand that perspective and with comprehension inevitably comes respect.)

Dressage pony breeders risk getting sucked into the type race, too...and I do think that will doom them as a signficant market. (Yup, I still think it'll be better to market them as sportponies, not "dressage ponies" so the type can be downplayed and the fun-related functionality can be emphasized.)

Daydream Believer

Sep. 24, 2007, 09:03 AM

Those sport ponies are just too dang hot and go-y for 99% of the NA kids. They just are not fun. For adults they are just too small to really give a good feeling of suspension.

I agree with Heather...you just haven't ridden or seen the really nice "ponies" out there yet. You really can put horse movement in a small package and it is not exclusive to just imported pony breeds. My own mount, my stallion, has a lot of suspension and I've never ridden a horse before with as much trot as my 14:2 hand stallion has. Our breed is noted for their people oriented temperaments and I know many that make super kids horses.

exvet

Sep. 24, 2007, 09:20 AM

Dressage pony breeders risk getting sucked into the type race, too...and I do think that will doom them as a signficant market. (Yup, I still think it'll be better to market them as sportponies, not "dressage ponies" so the type can be downplayed and the fun-related functionality can be emphasized.)

I obviously come to this from a different perspective; but, agree completely. If the proposed division/championship were restricted to GRPs only or warmblood x pony crosses I do think the type race or circus as I see it will come true; however, if it is truly open to pony breeds then I think the prediction won't necessarily become fact, though there are those on here who will try, and try hard. I understand that it behooves their monetary interest to do so. As I follow this thread, I must say that I'm disheartened to a small extent, though not surprised (and not by Centerline's comments in the least 'cause I agree that she simply summed up what the rest of us have already stated here just in a much less polite way). I don't have the money the rest of you seem to. I will not spend the kind of money that the dressage pony-type circus will demand should the above predictions come true; yet, I will still be competing & breeding albeit in my own little fishbowl my vertically challenged breed and will be happy to send any/all of the crowd/following [kids and adults] that we've collected at each show "your" way when they express an interest in buying/riding a "true" dressage pony...hee, hee, hee, hee, hee :yes: .............cause mine are SPORT PONIES. Their owner/trainer just happens to prefer dressage. I guess I'd be classified as one of the dressage hacks, who's vertically challenged, over the hill, total amateur, limited funds, with kids who ride - Ladies.....except for the limited funds part in reality I AM YOUR MARKET. I'd proceed forward in this quest carefully if you truly want it to develop into a sustaining niche market.

Daydream Believer

Sep. 24, 2007, 09:24 AM

Dressage pony breeders risk getting sucked into the type race, too...and I do think that will doom them as a signficant market. (Yup, I still think it'll be better to market them as sportponies, not "dressage ponies" so the type can be downplayed and the fun-related functionality can be emphasized.)

That is interesting. I have been trying not to put all my eggs in one basket if you will...and not just rely on one type of buyer. I simply can't afford to. I'm lucky in that our breed is noted for it's versatility in many sports like endurance, western games, very level headed trail riding horses, and we have had some nice english/sport pony types in the past and some up and coming now. My friend in VT just won another dressage class on her little Col spanish gelding yesterday against 13 WBs. This same little horse is doing a 35 mile competitive ride this week. She has won everything she entered in dressage so far (granted at local shows) and I am excited to get a chance to see her horses in early October for our breed's annual meeting.

It is hard to see a baby I bred for good dressage type movement go to a western or trail riding home but I'm trying not to be too picky as long as it's a good home. I am realistic and realize that I am working with a breed that is still largely unknown and that is no help at all and hay is not getting any cheaper.

I do agree that except for the very elite, having an all around sport pony type and being willing to market/sell in that general sportpony market is going to be an advantage. The market in general is very tough and I see nice riding horses going for next to nothing all around me.

Tiki

Sep. 24, 2007, 09:33 AM

Actually, I kind of agree with all of you. You really don't see many kids riding dressage in this country. You also don't see many kids jumping over 2'6", whereas they jump 4'6" in Europe, England and Ireland. Yep!

Also agree with Heather that you (Centerline) must not have seen or ridden many of these quality GRP's. They are incredible, and if you're not right up next to them and the rider is proportionately sized, you'd be amazed when you walk up next to them that they're not 16.2h.

Because most kids don't ride dressage is the reason I've gone to the crosses WB to WB pony to produce Cob-sized Warmbloods. Some adults don't want to actually go pony because of perhaps 'pony stigma', i.e. riding a kid's mount, but they DO want the looks, the movement and the temperament. Hope I'm right. My girlfriend and I have got a couple of real lookers on the ground with high scoring movement and super temperament.

And Centerline, if you think these 'little guys' can't do it, take a look at Trevelyan Farm's Forrest Flame who competed and WON at 3rd Level in Dressage in Florida AGAINST HORSES, and he's started competing against horses at 4th level in Florida and should be very successful again.

Chardonnay, in California is competing at (I think) 3rd or 4th level against horses with success.

Sassenach

Sep. 24, 2007, 10:17 AM

pwynnnorman

Sep. 24, 2007, 10:51 AM

Ponies like Forest Flame and Cashel's Rock of Ages need to be used as poster boys for the dressage pony somehow.

Why NOT have a website, girls? Just something that shows your ponies doing what they do best and can become THE place (the first hit on a search engine) to go to find a dressage pony? Why not interview each other about your programs and post the articles on that website and/or offer them to publications? I don't care what breed they are--they truth of the matter is that dressage is a beautiful sport when exhibited by a well-bred animal, horse or pony. Get that image out there and at least enable those who see the little wonders at the shows to get online, find more and be impressed.

You wanna specialist, purpose-bred pony to catch on? Develop and maintain a speclized, focused website. I gotta be frank and note that what, IMO, doomed that performance pony alliance thing was that the horse was being made by a committee and so it produced a camel. Those of you with the genuine, top class, European-quality stock that puts the rest of us to shame when it comes to THE type for dressage (competitive, upper level potential that is) need to put on your battle armor and do your own thing with YOURSELVES.

We use the term elite, but sometimes that's just a FACT. Those with elite-type ponies need to distinguish themselves openly and honestly from those with average so the public understands, just like those dressage breeders who can sell five-figured babies. There aren't many of them, but they distinguish themselves TO THEIR MARKETS by the successes of their stock and the bloodlines they offer. They don't hob knob with the rank and file that much, maybe because everyone else just waters down what they've invested so much in producing and offering to a more discerning public. A website, maybe with participation by invitation only, could go a long, long way for you, I think--but it might take some courage to present! Still, the regional WB breeders groups seem to do quite well with that tactic, don't you think?

exvet

Sep. 24, 2007, 10:01 PM

We use the term elite, but sometimes that's just a FACT. Those with elite-type ponies need to distinguish themselves openly and honestly from those with average so the public understands, just like those dressage breeders who can sell five-figured babies. There aren't many of them, but they distinguish themselves TO THEIR MARKETS by the successes of their stock and the bloodlines they offer. They don't hob knob with the rank and file that much, maybe because everyone else just waters down what they've invested so much in producing and offering to a more discerning public. A website, maybe with participation by invitation only, could go a long, long way for you, I think--but it might take some courage to present! Still, the regional WB breeders groups seem to do quite well with that tactic, don't you think?

Hey, Heather, don't you already have one? It appears to have a few links to some of the rich and famous among your group. How many sales do you think it generates and/or how much interest do you find coming from the website versus people seeing you "around town" and/or running across your posts on the various bulletin boards and lists? Just curious....admitting that I'm not one of the elite though I show/compete (ie, even win - currently third level and breaking into fourth) as if I am ;)

Centerline Farm

Sep. 24, 2007, 10:16 PM

And Centerline, if you think these 'little guys' can't do it, take a look at Trevelyan Farm's Forrest Flame who competed and WON at 3rd Level in Dressage in Florida AGAINST HORSES, and he's started competing against horses at 4th level in Florida and should be very successful again.

Chardonnay, in California is competing at (I think) 3rd or 4th level against horses with success.

I never said these guys cannot do it. At least that is not what I meant to say.

Lendon did it on a Connemara/Tb 14.3 hand hony.

My point is that there is no real need for these ponies in the US.

There is no gap to fill.

Kids are not that interested in dressage or even really jumping. And the kids that are interested in dressage or jumping are going to want a horse sized animal. Any 16 year old that is serious wants to ride like Anky. Do you see Anky on any ponies???

And as for adults, well, who can really say what adults want. But I know that every ad I have ever seen for a smaller horse (like 15 hands or so) is priced much less than a 16 hander...there must be a reason for that... and I would say it is because adults are willing to buy a smaller horse only if it is bargain priced, not because that is what they really want...

Further, the GRP look very hot and just as difficult to ride as a full sized horse. So what is the point??? Closer to the ground when you fall off??

However, I think it would be great if you guys could manage to get a market going of some kind. They are cool little equines and it would be nice to see them get ahead.

eventmom

Sep. 25, 2007, 06:59 AM

Centerline, You sound like a woman who does not know ponies! Pretty amazing guys. At our place they rule! MUCH more agile and athletic than a horse, much smarter and more thoughtful than a horse. In my limited experience, they seem to be a different animal. If my kids would stay small, I would no doubt LOVE to keep them on ponies. When I send then out on a cross country course, I love knowing that my ikids are on a capable pony!

pwynnnorman

Sep. 25, 2007, 07:14 AM

Centerline, You sound like a woman who does not know ponies! Pretty amazing guys.

Sadly, eventmom, it's not just Centerline--and that's the problem: "Does not know ponies."

WE know ponies, but how do you get THEM to? That's the problem that has to be solved (and THAT is what my sportpony of the year award is designed to do...someday :().

hluing

Sep. 25, 2007, 07:21 AM

Pwynn...I like your sportpony of the year award too!

Ahh, Centerline...I agree that you are just on a different page then us about this. First, most GRP's are not hot. The ones I have ridden are though very much like small WB's...as far as gaits, hotness, etc. However, they are also ponies...they are adorable, smart, and bursting with personality. Does everybody need a GRP in their barn....nahhh...but enough people do to make it very much worth my time to breed them. I myself am in love with the breed...and would never breed something I did not want to ride and did not belive in! Also in my opinion there is a gap to fill. I felt it myself...that is why when I found out about he GRP it was like the last peice of the puzzle fell into place.

Lgd1

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:13 AM

Dressage ponies are big money in Europe (mainland and UK). The trianed ones change hands for a lot of money. Have a look on www.horsequest.co.uk and the classifieds on www.horseandhound.co.uk - some of the prices will make you go :eek:

Quite a few adults in the UK compete native ponies in dressage (Welsh and New Forest in particular form a lot of the foundation stock in Germany and Holland).

I'm a 5'7" 'larger' lady, my own riding horses are 15.3hh and 16hh but I am currently competing a friends Fell Pony at Medium level (L3). He scrapes in at 14hh in his shoes (14hh is max height for his breed). On our second outing together he won his class and qualified for the winter regionals - including beating my younger mare!

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=17103

http://groups.msn.com/upsaddle2/lgd.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=17105

Horsepower

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:41 AM

Pony convert here chiming in. Advertise guys, advertise. Marketing is so what makes this country run. Fads come and go. I have met a number of riders who have become disenamoured with their huge horses. Get some talented professionals to start showing your sport ponies at big name shows. Teddy is great advertising. The more out there the bigger the market will become. My own story fits in to one of your mentioned stereotypes. I am a petite adult who has been riding for years. After my 16.1 hand horse died I tried a number of horses to ride at various barns. Previously, I had never liked ponies because I thought they had short choppy strides. Well I got on a sport pony at one barn and I am so in love with these horses now -- a big stride, super smart, super talented, great personality; also as mentioned I can work with this pony without getting on a stool to tack and groom. I have never had so much fun. If I am ever in the market for another horse I would only look at another sport pony. I will encourage any kids in my family who take up riding to only look at these talented ponies.

As far as a slow market, the horse market has generally been in a slump for the last few years. Here's one word of encouragement; for some reason I tend to always be just ahead of the game as far as fads go. Whenever I start using a product, shortly thereafter, it seems to become the next "hot item." So maybe that will happen with sport ponies ;).

hluing

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:49 AM

Horsepower...you touched on a very important thing...Advertising. Now as a small breeder still working on establishing my breeding program....advertising has been a real challenge. that is one thing I was hoping GRP breeders would do...come together and do cooperative marketing. Has not happened yet! I think because I am a rarity amoung GRP breeders not having my own stallion. Most GRP breeders promote their stallion and thru that the rest of their ponies.

Any ideas on advertising?

exvet

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:54 AM

Very nice Lgd1 and congratulations on a good showing. Here is a pic of my guy

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=104502

Now please remember, neither of these guys have suspension. It's purely our imagination ;)

Honestly, I think pwynn as usual has hit the nail on the head. She has aptly described two big dilemmas. The lack of understanding and appreciation of pony/small horse talent in the US as well as the divisive nature that changing it creates - what is a sport pony/dressage pony and are the GRPs the only worthy ones? I agree that what I ride is no where near as fancy and certainly not the "modern look" that is the fad now; however, they are no less talented or capable - though I concede that it's a little harder to find an individual bred specifically for dressage/sport because the native breeds for years/centuries have been bred for all-rounder purposes. I don't think that makes them any less capable or worthy, certainly versatile but it does mean you have to really look at the individual when you take one on and have a specific goal.

I also must agree with some of the previous comments that the riders here, both young and old, do not have the background and culture that we see in Europe, including Britain. I don't think it was always that way but you find very few people growing up with a horse in their backyard anymore - starting with ponies and literally growing up on horseback. The native breeds are not so pervasive here, instead it's still the quarterhorse. Not bad, just different. It's hard to get people to look at ponies as anything other than mean little stinkers with choppy gaits. Though people like hluing, tiki, sportpony and pwynn do produce vertically challenged animals that make people pause and think. It's just that we need to get them (the general public and the DQs in my case) to realize that these are not the exceptions and can be the rule.

Horsepower

Sep. 25, 2007, 10:08 AM

HLUing: I am not a marketing or advertising exec so other than putting more of them into shows I don't really know. I do think you guys should try to start a national registry; awards; pony shows; more websites. I would suggest that if you band together perhaps you can afford to get a marketing expert to give you advise. I really do think that you guys can start a new fad if you really put your minds to it. Also, dish the "Hony" term. I really hate that word and it implies these ponies are only worthy if they are horses. Let's have a little PONY pride here!

I was very disappointed in Lendon Grey's website. I also don't get why she is only marketing to kids. She would do the pony breed a lot more good if she also marketed to adults. I am guessing that she is hoping that as these kids grow they will stick with ponies and also that she is trying to create a new generation interested in dressage. But I think she should also market to adults as well.

Lgd1

Sep. 25, 2007, 10:49 AM

Smart boy exvet :D

Now please remember, neither of these guys have suspension. It's purely our imagination ;)

:D I just let the doubters try and sit on his extended trot - for which he gets 7's and 8's

Tiki

Sep. 25, 2007, 11:57 AM

My first homebred will be 3 and ready to start next year.

Rambling Rose (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB1d564k9vE)

Disclaimer: This is NOT a sale ad, merely an example of one of the sport ponies we're discussing as to temperament and traits in a 2yo sport pony.

pwynnnorman

Sep. 25, 2007, 11:58 AM

I continue to believe (as I did with the performance pony effort) that the simpliest, easiest, quickest thing to do would be to put money in a pot and keep ads out there, maybe even the exact same ad, but with a different top pony pictured. Message repetition is critical after all. And all the ad need do is direct folks to a website. And all the website need do is list breeders by geographic and electronic location--and maybe include a self-serve page of classified ads (self-serve in that each "member" would have password access to upload photos and add content on their own).

That's basically all the VPBA does, plus rather limited awards linked to advertising (and not the self-serve part, of course). Baby steps are needed, I suspect, for this particular group, however: something simple to get folks to trust and work with each other instead of compete against each other (which is how it has felt to me, sometimes--among stallion owners, mainly...and, yeah, I know: nature of the beast, for sure ;)).

Granted, we haven't mentioned Ponyworld.net. It certain has its heart in the right place, but for some reason, it's never gotten much action going, alas. It may suffer from being too generic. That's what I mean about dressage pony breeders getting together, one of which I am not. Nevertheless, even if y'all did and decided to go an ad route, I'd put $$$ in the pot anyway since it's the overall visibility, not necessarily the specific images, that helps us all, IMO.

Koko

Sep. 25, 2007, 12:04 PM

Ohhh, I want an english riding pony like the ones I see in Horse and Hound magazine. So adorable... I just drool over them. This is my only motivation to have children (kidding), as I'll need to have a daughter to ride one because I'm almost 6 ft tall. Sigh. I would love it though.

Centerline Farm

Sep. 25, 2007, 04:30 PM

Well, I guess we will see in ten years who is right or wrong.

I would be happy to be proven wrong, but I really think the NA culture, mindset and riding ability is not conducive to GRPs.

But full steam ahead guys!

Meanwhile, I am having a great time jumping my 14.3 hand hony over anything that stands still long enough... and riding my 16.1 hand WB in dressage...

And just wondering, but Pwynn...have you noticed a big upsurge in pony demand for eventing since Teddy? Are people cashing in their 16+ handers for ponies or honies?

pwynnnorman

Sep. 25, 2007, 05:11 PM

And just wondering, but Pwynn...have you noticed a big upsurge in pony demand for eventing since Teddy? Are people cashing in their 16+ handers for ponies or honies?

Nope, not really. Upsurge in people trying to SELL them, but not in those looking to buy. Oddly, a LOT of interest in breeding (first to Ted, because the Rolex program said he was stallion), but now to Kev, his brother. (He not available for stud duties, though, so I've turned quite a few away--and usually I try to refer folks to others that might suit, but it seems the inquiries I've gotten have all been eventing/jumper types who want the TB blood.) Still perhaps the idea of the smaller mount will actually get the boost it needs by ladies wanting to downsize via breeding? I had one lady describe how much she loved her 17-hand Hannoverian mare, but would much prefer the same horse, only smaller (she also said "narrower").

Astraled

Sep. 25, 2007, 05:40 PM

I think, in the US, breeds like Quarter Horses, Morgans, and Arabians pick up a lot of the riders wanting a smaller mount. People willing to buy smaller horses seem willing to buy "off" breeds, too.

Hoppy2

Sep. 25, 2007, 07:23 PM

Why do kids have to outgrow ponies? Ponies range in many sizes not just the smalls. My daughter rides her pony at 14hh and you would never think he was that size looking at him. I hear lots of "when my kids move up to horses" like ponies are just a stepping stones and maybe to some thats all they are. Parents need to be educated as they are the ones buying the replacement. Then again it is a preference and that is hard to sway.
My grandfather was a cowboy and worked on many of the big ranches in Alberta in the 30's. He always preferred a smaller horse ie. pony to ride.Last one he owned and trained was a little guy who maybe topped off at 14hh. Best rope horse he had, lots of heart, moved out and was a comfortable ride all day. kids were safe when riding him. So I guess I am partial to ponies as we never had to graduate to something bigger, as ours were big enough in our own eyes.

tri

Sep. 25, 2007, 07:25 PM

Because most of the market is in hunters and the large pony hunters jump 3' . If you want to move up to 3'6, you move up to junior hunters which is horses.

pwynnnorman

Sep. 25, 2007, 07:29 PM

Say, Tri. If a pony had enough step, could it compete in the juniors if its rider wanted to? Are ponies specifically excluded from the division?

goodpony

Sep. 25, 2007, 08:24 PM

Meanwhile, I am having a great time jumping my 14.3 hand hony over anything that stands still long enough... and riding my 16.1 hand WB in dressage...

...girl after my own heart. I have pony that I really want to do jumpers with....ultimately if he turns out I'd like to find him a jockey for FEI Pony Jumping. Any chance show jumping ponies with adults will catch on? :D While we are waiting on this one we are showing our other Pony in eventing and having a ball.

ania

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:19 PM

Ok, I've just finished reading all of this. Most of the discussion has geared towards the buying/selling of these ponies. My question is what sort of demand is there for breeding? I mean, what sort of demand is there for these fancy GRP stallions for breeding? Do people want them to be at 3rd/4th or even FEI before looking to breed them or if its a good quality will people go ahead and breed to one earlier than that?

RheinlandPfalzSaar

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:27 PM

I find this to be an interesting thread. I have always loved ponies and would in a heart beat buy one if I wasn't tall so I personally am not in the pony market. Anyway, I have not read the whole thread so if I am off beat in what I am about to say sorry!

One red flag that I have seen discussed in other threads is that a lot of sport ponies are not as rideable as other breeds of pony (I am not basing this on personal experience I have just heard this) - a lot of parents are going to be put off by that safety factor. I think I saw this discussed a bit in the grey Connemara thread although I may have generalized a comment meant for specifically him? I would think that breeders not breeding rideable sport ponies but mainly breeding for the 'jump' would loose a signifigant amount of client base. You don't see a lot of people wanting a professional to show their ponies, mainly ponies are shown by children & amateur adults in the states at least.

I also think that like RBE was saying that getting a sport pony/hony association together is great idea!

It seems to me that a great way to market sport ponies would be to pony clubbers. Why not call your local pony clubs and see if you can provide a breed or type class of sorts to get kids and parents involved and learning about the sport pony? That would be an ideal market I would think and it could become quite a niche. You could also extend this sort of youth education to riding programs, their are a lot of places out their not specifically geared to hunters.

Anyway, best of luck to all of your wonderful breeding programs! There is a lot of passion in this discussion and that is a great thing for your respective breeds be it GRP's or rare Colonial Spanish Mustangs, which btw, RBE has some gorgeous ones!!!!

Anna

CDE Driver

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:49 PM

hluing

Sep. 26, 2007, 05:54 AM

I'll take a stab at a couple of questions raised. As far as breeding GRP's there is quite a bit of interest. I have helped to represent Hilken's Black Delight in the US and he was 3 and 4 years old...of course he also won his stallion licesening, etc...and people have been quite interested in him. Of course it is great is they are more trained too...

CDE Driver...you are just a couple years ahead of the times in my opinion. See, breeders here are pretty new to the game. Besides people like Klaus Beisenthal, I am one of the "more established" breeders of GRP's in the US...and my first foal was just three this spring. So, if you want something already started, with excellent movement and the desirable top of the line size...you are looking for something pretty special. Now you might find it in an imported pony...but not for 15k with the huge price of importation and the all time weak dollar. Now in a few years it should be easier to find a fancy driving *prospect*...but few of us breeders would probably have it trained to drive.

Bogey2

Sep. 26, 2007, 06:20 AM

... a dressage moving pony that drives.

call Lesley at Trevelyan Farm...she sold a driving pony or two in the past...one has done very well!

exvet

Sep. 26, 2007, 11:18 AM

Do you feel there is a market for dressage ponies?

After all of the posts/responses it appears pretty clear that not only can't we agree on what qualifies as a dressage pony/sport pony but if we can't define what one is how can we really identify a market. Whether it's horses or widgets you have to know your product and your market inside/out to be able to successfully sell that product and derive a sustaining income/revenue stream. We (meaning the US) do not have the horsemanship among the children or adults to handle "hot" ponies nor does our "got to have it [rewards] now" society align itself well with the ideals of dressage - be it young or old. Sure the baby boomers have a large disposable income (except me) and as we age some of us who are 5'2" and under don't care to grapple and drag ourselve up onto the behemoths anymore no matter how impressive they are (by now I really don't need to impress anyone other than myself). As for not delivering the same power and feel - BS - but - then again, I really think even if it were true the fact is the majority of "this population" can't ride the power or the large movement regardless of the size of package so it's a moot point. So where does that get everyone who has a desire to or already is producing their own version of a sport pony? Sounds like we're right back to square one. A true cooperative effort seems unlikely. For someone who use to live in KC and knows well the area of Manhattan, KS, it would appear to be quite an undertaking if dressage ponies are going to be your game unless you have a network on one coast or the other to get those ponies sold. If you're just in it for the money, stick to hunter ponies - at least it's a proven racket if you can get in (that is if you aren't already in the thick of things as it were).

pwynnnorman

Sep. 26, 2007, 12:14 PM

OK, I'll throw this one out to really muddy the waters...

I am looking for something really specific. One big, fat, giant caveat... a dressage moving pony that drives. Must be CDE (combined driving) ready. GRP preferred but not an absolute. Must be top of size, 147cm (isn't it 148 with shoes?). Would even go up to 15.1 if it could make the horse times.

Have gotten a few videos of pretty plain moving ponies, none that even one make you go "Hmmm, that could work" for up to $15,000.

I am starting to think this pony does not exist. Heck, I'm pretty sure I could even sell two of them.

Oh, that's just too funny, CDE. Here's one (although I don't know how "dressage moving" you'd call her--LP say's she should be quite competitive): http://sportponiesunlimited.com/Cat_trot_1

'Cept she ain't for sale! (It's Theo, Teddy's sister, broke to drive by Larry Poulin and being prepped to give a go at the Singles WC.) If you don't know Vivian already, maybe she'd have some leads for you? I'd be happy to give you her email.

BTW, Vivian and I were just talking about the new driving tests that require the canter. We agreed that that could be a real advantage for some types (like Cat, who--as a 3/4TB--finds cantering in harness, even cantering on-the-spot, very easy indeed, while other types are more traditional trotters that find the cantering difficult). I think the dressage-bred/GRP-type could also have that advantage, especially the ones shorter backed than, say, the traditional Morgan type or the harness horse breeds.

pwynnnorman

Sep. 26, 2007, 06:19 PM

Oh, snap (as they say)! I wasn't going to belabor the points made here, but I jsut have to add something. It's actually an observation someone else made to me privately which I hadn't thought of before. It involves an image "interpretation" that is really, really frustrating!

The big trot. I was saying a while back that getting images out there more often might help, but this person noted--representing her 12-year-old daughter's perspective--that that trot we love to see so much could be a timid kid's turn off! Sheesh, can you imagine? And yet it makes a bit of sense, I suppose--in this world of uber-popular western pleasure and hunt seat under saddle, bigness and expression may, sadly, scare folks off (this is her idea, although not her words). And, yup, her (small) kid does WP on a 16.0h AQHA. She does endurance, but is an artist and enjoys watching dressage because, to her, it's artistic.

And we even talked about the consumer profile of folks like herself who would like to support the growth of DPs. We came up with "educated, intellectual and artistically inclined," but before we could come up with more, we got sidetracked onto the topic of publications which cater to that type (Equine Art types, she thought). Anyway, neither here nor there. I just couldn't resist posting her observation.

not again

Sep. 26, 2007, 08:45 PM

If you want a driving pony, why not check with Klaus Biesenthal. He has Makuba.

hluing

Oct. 1, 2007, 10:31 AM

Well, I have been thinking about this thread for some time and I am ready to take action. I am in the process of drafting a letter to the USDF asking for:
1. Young Pony Classes modeled after the Young Horse Classes to be offered at USDF shows with a regional championinship class
2. Pony Class (with test of choice) that is open to all age riders at each USDF show
3. Young and Mature Pony classes offered at USDF breed shows with a championship class at regional finals

Does anyone else have specific ideas of pony classes to petition USDF?

I think this will have alot more effort if we have some numbers behind it. What about a petition? Would that be something you guys would be interested in? Maybe we all draft independent letters to send around the same time? Besides the COTH posters...perhaps we could all contact the other pony dressage people we know and get them to sign a petition or write letters? Lets do something!

DownYonder

Oct. 1, 2007, 10:44 AM

pwynnnorman

Oct. 1, 2007, 10:57 AM

Heather, I think it sounds like a great idea! I have several friends now riding dressage ponies, and I have been very fond of the GRPs since my first trip to Germany in 2000.

My only question is how would you enforce the size limitation at USDF shows? Would the ponies need to have a permanent card like they do for the hunter shows? Otherwise, I think a steward would be needed at the USDF shows to measure the ponies.

DownYonder, woudln't any USDF show that offers a pony class have the requisite steward? Perhaps this idea could fly fastest if it were proposed to shows which already offer pony classes? Perhaps if the additional classes need not be USDF "recognized" (not sure how that works), you could approach the show managers directly, rather than USDF--at least initially. USDF doesn't restrict show managers from offering non-USDF sanctioned classes, does it? I was told by a prominent in-person that if someone offers funding and its possible to schedule the class or division, it'll happen. The person implied that it's the show managers, not the governing organization, that really determine what classes are offered.

DownYonder

Oct. 1, 2007, 01:05 PM

DownYonder, wouldn't any USDF show that offers a pony class have the requisite steward?

Are you referring to the TD?

Rainbow Farm Unltd.

Oct. 1, 2007, 01:07 PM

2. Pony Class (with test of choice) that is open to all age riders at each USDF show

This already exists. The only pony dressage classes that must be ridden by juniors are the FEI Pony classes. And an authorized steward or TD on site to measure ponies at every USDF show that offers pony classes is already in place as well.

If we make a huge deal about ponies specifically, when we want adults to be able to compete them, we're going to wind up with Pony Division that is limited to juniors, like the hunters and jumpers. I see no problem with ponies competing against the big horses, since it's the individual performance that is judged. Some ponies that are out there in Open competition are kicking butts and taking names!

DownYonder

Oct. 1, 2007, 01:18 PM

Ah, I didn't know that measuring ponies was part of the official duties of a TD. Thanks for the info!

Tiki

Oct. 1, 2007, 01:53 PM

I agree with Barb. A lot of these types of classes already exist. Last year at Dressage at Devon there was a Welsh pony and a Morgan stallion in the 5yo Young Horse Classes.

There are true ponies that are kicking butt already up to at least 4th level dressage against horses.

I'm more interested, myself, in cob-sized WBs. Jana Freund, in Germany, is riding these in the Bundeschampionate and World Breeding Federation classes and doing very, very well, and she's an adult rider.

We don't have very many kids at all in this country doing any kind of dressage, and the jumping is pitiful - 2'6" when kids in Europe, England and Ireland are doing 4'6". How did our kids become such wimps? Are the kids holding themselves back or are the trainers doing it? I was never such a wimp when I was a kid riding.

Smaller women, and even some not so small, can ride the large GRP's and the cob-sized WBs very well. These are people who HAVE ridden big trots. They just don't want to do it on 17+hand horses anymore. I think that THIS is where the market is really going to start. These people are already riding dressage and just want something more manageable to ride. It's going to be MUCH harder to convert kids from WP, hunters, baby jumpers, trail to dressage.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 1, 2007, 02:57 PM

These are people who HAVE ridden big trots. They just don't want to do it on 17+hand horses anymore. I think that THIS is where the market is really going to start.

Now there's an excellent rejoinder!

Only trouble is in the numbers, alas (i.e. probably a lot more who can't ride the trot than who can--or who think they can't rode it...kinda sadly misses the whole point, in a way: to avoid [the trot] rather than improve [the seat], that is).

DownYonder

Oct. 1, 2007, 04:02 PM

We don't have very many kids at all in this country doing any kind of dressage, and the jumping is pitiful - 2'6" when kids in Europe, England and Ireland are doing 4'6". How did our kids become such wimps?

Well, it may have something to do with our strong show hunter industry. I mean, in hunters, it is all about the style and isn't it easier for a kid to be stylish over 2'6" than 4'6"? In Germany, Holland, etc., there isn't a show hunter tradition, so kids start riding jumpers at a young age. They don't have to worry about style, so they can just "go for it" over bigger fences and at a faster pace. In England, there is a stong Pony Club tradition where kids learn to ride on all kinds of terrain and at all speeds over all kinds of jumps. and in Ireland, a lot of kids grow up fox hunting. By contrast, most kids in the U.S. get started at a local hunter barn, and that is all they ever do - ride endless rounds in perfectly groomed rings with perfectly set jumps on push-button or LTD packers. The more adventurous kids sometimes eventually graduate to bigger hunter courses, or to jumpers, but from what I have heard from hunter folks, most kids top out at 2'6".

Another factor may be our litigious society. Since the risk of injury increases as jump height and speed increases, many parents and trainers are loathe to encourage kids to move up.

exvet

Oct. 2, 2007, 02:28 AM

If we make a huge deal about ponies specifically, when we want adults to be able to compete them, we're going to wind up with Pony Division that is limited to juniors, like the hunters and jumpers. I see no problem with ponies competing against the big horses, since it's the individual performance that is judged. Some ponies that are out there in Open competition are kicking butts and taking names!

I tend to agree with you Barb. I don't have a problem with a pony championship that is patterned after the young horse championship as a separate division. The same with some of the in hand classes/competition; but, when it evolves beyond that I'm more for sponsoring/promoting awards at competitions or within regions at the end of a show season that recognize high scoring ponies/cobs (and not just cob sized warmbloods) as opposed to segregating them out to compete against each other at a specific show. I don't know about the rest of you who actually compete but I thought part of the point was/is to show just how competitive and capable these guys are regardless of their shorter stature and that means going out there and competing in the same venue, the same class, using the same standard as the big guys - side by side. A highpoint award or some system that recognizes that capability I think would increase market potential as opposed to creating a separate division within a show. While segregating may "showcase" the ponies to a degree, there is nothing that proves the point more than to do a medium or extended gait across the diagonal demonstrating the same number of strides as the big guy that just went ahead of you (and your vertically challenged beast is actually covering ground and showing a distinct change in gait) and/or half passes that show just as much crossover (or more) than the 16.3 behemoth that you just passed on your way to warm up around the competition arena. Of course for it to really work in terms of marketing you would also have to follow it up with sufficient press coverage so that everyone everywhere can take notice............So you would have a TOC class for ponies only? Riders of any level? Does that mean that I on my (pick any of mine - if you don't like the welsh cobs you have to choose from you could pick the one sired by the approved German riding pony that I own) could/would compete Third level test 3 against the kid on the German riding pony riding training level test 1 'cause in my region that's about what it would amount to at a single show? Not sure what that would prove. At this point in time a pony division offered at a show in some regions doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot if there is only one or two that compete.....heck I already see that as it is. At last year's regional championships I think there was a whopping 4 of us competing in the second level AA championship class and that consisted of 3 warmbloods and one lowly welsh cob.

hluing

Oct. 2, 2007, 07:20 AM

OK guys...just brainstorming here! We will throw out the dressage pony test of choice idea;) In my region (region 3) there is NOTHING for dressage ponies U/S or inhand. Nothing! As someone who now has a super talented but 13.2hh mare for dressage...I WANT a Young Pony class modeled after the YH Class...because we are excluded from YH based on size! Maybe that is something some of you can get behind. We are also completely not represented at the USDF breed shows...and it would be VERY hard for a young pony to place over a big WB under MANY judges. In my opinion, USDF needs to get with the times and offer us pony and small horse people something.

exvet

Oct. 2, 2007, 09:03 AM

OK guys...just brainstorming here! We will throw out the dressage pony test of choice idea In my region (region 3) there is NOTHING for dressage ponies U/S or inhand. Nothing! As someone who now has a super talented but 13.2hh mare for dressage...I WANT a Young Pony class modeled after the YH Class...because we are excluded from YH based on size! Maybe that is something some of you can get behind. We are also completely not represented at the USDF breed shows...and it would be VERY hard for a young pony to place over a big WB under MANY judges. In my opinion, USDF needs to get with the times and offer us pony and small horse people something.

Definitely something I could get behind; however, I have thrown money, a perpetual trophy, in fact, and support behind a couple of the "newer" programs featuring some specific "ponies" endorsed/awarded through both USEF & USDF and unfortunately other than establishign the program the momentum died there. It will take more than just establishing the award to accomplish what I think we're all wanting/needing. We also need press, lots and lots of press otherwise few will know that the program(s) exist or how to take advantage of them.

hluing

Oct. 2, 2007, 09:07 AM

Exvet...I'm curious what awards/programs you ahve thrown $ at since I have not heard of ANYTHING for dressage ponies.

Yes, we need press. A nice article in USDF Connections would be super. So, should we do a petition or individual letters sent around the same time. Can we get non-COTH dressage pony people involved?

exvet

Oct. 2, 2007, 09:55 AM

I'm a charter/founding member of the Native Pony Breed Assoc. here in the US which when it was created was done in time to sponsor an USDF All Breed Award/categories. Unfortunately not only do few know about it, because of the USDF rules I think fewer still can or are willing to declare it as "their breed assoc." through USDF because many go with their primary breed assoc if they already are one of the sponsoring All breeds assoc. I don't think there was a single All breed participant or winner. My guys are all already declared through WPCSA so I can't participate though I sponsor/support it. I also helped establish including provide the trophy for a USEF award specific for performance welsh cobs unfortunately there is so little press that only those who play the points games within the WPCSA know anything about it or who the winners are, etc but I also must say that it isn't dressage specific but the purpose was similar - increase the awareness of what welsh cobs can do under saddle. Both "awards" I think "fail" because there is no real publicity or announcements made to the general equine public - it's more or less a bunch of preaching to the choir. I know that "we" are already well aware of what dressage ponies can do so whatever "we" do, it needs to have a real marketing strategy behind it so that those who are not in the know are enticed to at least take some interest in the "other" (aka shorter) side ;)

Of course take it for what it's worth, my expertise is not in marketing.

pwynnnorman

Oct. 2, 2007, 11:07 AM

When it comes to "press," it's definitely a matter of "if you want it done right, do it yourself"--except in this case, it's more like "if you want it done at all, do it yourself."

The "we" of you need to work with each other, including INTERVIEWING each other, gathering photos and submitting articles to publications. You can start small and easy by submitting to the big, regional newsprint publications that are starved for copy, but then once you get comfortable, go for it and submit (with top quality photos) to the glossies. Look at what they publish and follow their style in terms of content and detail.

I recently was totally shocked at how successful one enterprising writer was in placing a story. I never expected the story to go so far, but I'm pretty sure she really put some thought into making it a strong story, not just another profile or brag.

You gals could do that, too, I'm sure. List the ponies you think best represent your goals to develop the division/type and consider what the most powerful, inspiring, emotional--whatever--elements of those ponies' individual stories are. If I had nothing else to do, I'd do it--just for the sheer fun of finding that story and parading that marvelous creature in front of the public. Surely, some of you are friends, right? Surely, you'd be comfortable enough promoting someone else's program if it also helped your own, yes?

The thing is, owners can't do it themselves, right? Even the newsprint rags will try to get you to buy an ad if you want your self-promotional pieces published. Someone has to write for an audience the story of your pony or your program. Oh, how often I've read those preaching-to-the-choir "pony brags" and thought "So what? Where's the story?" All I know of Forest Flame is that he was (maybe?) imported and has done well--I'm not even sure what level he competes at, but I THINK he's the epitome of a grand breeding program. But the sole source of that impression is the internet.

I would LOVE to see a full-of-colorful-pictures story about Forest Flame. I'd like to know his personality, what his babies are like, what challenges he faced in his development, what his rider thinks of him, what his little idiosyncrasies are, what his strengths and weaknesses are, what extraordinary things he's done, what his future holds, what it was like when he was performance tested, what his babies' owners are planning and what they say about him, who the humans are in his life and what their motivations have been, what disappointments they've encountered, what important things they've discovered, what advice they'd share...I could keep going and going...and so could you. I'd love to read that stuff about Forest Flame or Wynnbrook Starburst or whatever other stallions--or geldings or mares, especially if they are the products of US breeding efforts--are out there. I know I could both learn from and be inspired by them--and I know what they represent would STAY in the minds of others who read about them, too, if their stories were presented specifically to attract an audience.

Make a list of questions, ask them of EACH OTHER, gather up some great photos, and get going! Heck, you could even write up one story and attach it to a proposal for a series! Gosh, how I'd love for you to generate your own press--it could move the whole sportpony concept forward so significantly if you could.

And then there are press releases, but not just the blasted bragging stuff everyone seems to think of first and only. When I was teaching PR, I used a handout, "31 Reasons to Write a Press Release." It was a great resource for coming up with ideas to keep a name visible. I went online to see if I could find something like the list I used to use and found one with 40 (http://www.motiontemps.com/article_1203.html) reasons, another with 65 (http://sensiblesitesolutions.com/articles/65reasons.shtml)!

elly

Oct. 2, 2007, 11:10 AM

I emailed Jennifer Keeler to find out, if I could compete a pony in the YH classes/Championship - here is what she wrote -

- Ponies are allowed to qualify for all age divisions of the Markel/USEF National Young Horse Dressage Championships. They are NOT allowed in the 3 Selection Trials or the World Champs in Germany because of FEI rules -

I am planning to ride Foxcry Nicodemus (whom I rode at Devon last week) in 4 year old USDF classes and, if all goes well, we will qualify for the YH/Markel Championship.

I hope, that Magic Rose's gorgeous pony stallion Hot Shot will join us there and in years to come, many other US bred dressage ponies !

Elly

Tiki

Oct. 2, 2007, 11:56 AM

And again, I saw a Welsh pony and a pony sized Morgan stallion in the Young Horse classes last year at Devon. They also had to qualify somewhere else to get there. It's just the International FEI classes that they can't show in.

hluing

Oct. 3, 2007, 11:46 AM

OK...I am confused now...Elly and Tiki...is this what you are saying? They can compete and qualify in these classes but not the championships? Are they qualifing for something they can't compete in?

Even if this is so...looking at Germany as a model...I think we still need Young Pony Championships...look at the BC...horses and ponies have seperate divisions even though many times in Germany they compete in the same classes.

DownYonder

Oct. 3, 2007, 12:49 PM

Doesn't Markel sponsor the Y/H Championships? Why not approach them about expanding it to also include ponies? I would contact John or Lisa Seger at Markel and float the idea. USDF might be inclined to go along if the major sponsor requests it.

Tiki

Oct. 3, 2007, 12:51 PM

Nope. They can compete in all of our Young Horse Classes in this country and qualify for OUR National Young Horse Championships, and they can compete at Devon in the preliminary classes AND also the North American Sport Horse Breeders' Futurity IF they are born and bred in North America.

They can NOT qualify for or compete at the World Championships at Verden. I didn't know they couldn't compete in one of the 3 qualifiers, as that can also qualify them for our National Young Horse Championships in Kentucky. Anyone, as I understood it, could ride in one of the 3 qualifiers, but it wouldn't count as a qualifier for Verden UNLESS you filled out a letter of intent to compete at Verden IF you qualified. I still believe you can compete in the qualifier (with a pony) but you CAN'T submit a letter of intent nor qualify for Verden. However, cob-sized (or oversized if you will) can compete. Jana Freund rides them in Germany in the World's and the BuCha.

elly

Oct. 3, 2007, 12:57 PM

As I understand the message from Jennifer Keeler - ponies CAN compete in the YH classes and qualify USEF/Markel Championship- they can NOT compete in the Selection Trials for the World Championship in Germany OR at the World Championship because those are run according to FEI rules which states, as far as I recall, that ponies can only be shown in international classes by children to age 16 and that a FEI rider has to be OLDER then 16 to compete in international (CDI) competitions.

I like Down Yonder's suggestion about contacting the Segers and see if they would consider adding Pony classes in the YH Championship - we just have to provide enough ponies to fill the classes.

If you have any question in regards to YH classes - please contact Jennifer Keeler at jkeeler@usef.org

Elly

hluing

Oct. 3, 2007, 02:13 PM

Tiki "Jana Freund rides them in Germany in the World's and the BuCha"
-That might be the proverbial can of worms! Jana rides many ponies and horses...now some of the ponies MAY be oversized...but based on the current politics there they are competed as ponies;)

pwynnnorman

Oct. 3, 2007, 02:53 PM

But you've slid into operating under the assumption that more classes will change the situation. What is your reasoning? More classes do not address what others have commented on here concerning the dressage pony. I apologize in advance for the following negativity, but when will you folks actually acknowledge the feedback you get and deal with it?

Why would some company sponsor a class without any evidence that it would draw a significant number of entries and/or spectators? If you were to get these additional offerings in play, who would come? The "people who have already ridden the big trot," perhaps? All five of them?

Tiki

Oct. 3, 2007, 03:42 PM

Yes, Jana rides both horses and ponies. The pony measurement issue has been significantly tightened after mucho complaints and editorials by Astrid. Only children can ride ponies in the pony FEI tests. Jana rides the oversized ones - 15h - maybe 15.2 in the horse classes of the BuCha and the World's, not 'real' ponies.

Ponies ARE allowed in US Young Horse Classes and ponies ARE winning against horses in USDF/USEF dressage classes at least to 4th level. Right now Pwynn is right. Trying to start a ponies only, with adults or mixed adults/kids is IMHO NOT the way to go. First get them out there competing anywhere they are allowed and get the interest going!!

Summit Sport Horse's GRP, Popeye, beat the pants off the big guys at Dressage at Devon and earlier, qualifying shows. He has been Stallion Champion or Stallion Reserve Champion against much older and bigger stallions several times already, and he WON the Westfalen in-hand class at DAD against the big guys. He is another one that will beat the pants off them in under saddle classes. He is 14.1 1/2h.

These GRP's and GRP/WB crosses aren't true ponies in the literal sense of the word, they're more like small to mini Warmbloods in movement and temperament. They're not born like pony foals, i.e. miniatures of their mums and already adult size proportions, they're born, instead, like horse foals - with long legs and looking and acting very babyish, and they grow up to be mini WBs. Many of them are 'ponies' only because they don't grow above 14.2h. They're basically downsized Warmbloods that were downsized with a dash or more of pony blood, rather than being true ponies.

MagicRoseFarm

Oct. 3, 2007, 04:32 PM

We are very interested in this topic.

Our 4 year old Sport Pony stallion Hot Shot MRF is Welsh Section B / Hanoverian lineage. We may have a slightly different scenario than many here to deal with BECAUSE he can cut the horse measurement if need be.

We chose to just go right ahead and put him up against the horses SO WE WOULD NOT BE RESTRICTED by rules. Hot Shot proved to all by holding his own under saddle at Dressage At Devon that he belongs, and proved to me I was not a nut for persuing this.

So.... so far it IS working. I had too many other issues this year to seriously attack the FEI 4 year olds, however, we ARE planning to compete next year in the FEI 5 year olds. He is not doing too well at paying his own way yet, so we are NOT hopeful to go to Europe at this time, and have to take a wait and see approach to all the Championships, unless he gets a sponsor.

WE HAVE THESE SUPER LITTLE ATHLETES HERE , I think committing ourselves to THE PRINCIPAL of American bred sport ponies and developement of the programs will cause the the market to open up more.

As a small breeder,who must support their breeding business with its own income, I KNOW the hurdles we face. With the sportponies , everything is scaled down, except the daily expenses. We discussed just yesterday with my trainer , how do I justify a training bill that is larger than the final value JUST to prove a point and get a pony to Grand Prix ( when I know the market is not quite ready to support the bills involved) ...Luckily our boy IS a stallion so he has some opportunity to offset his expenses, but is it fair (especially to my ever patient family) that the rest of my breeding program must support this single insanity?

OK.. not insanity, but definitely NOT smart business practice right now, just to prove that ponies rock and need serious consideration !!!

I am very happy to see this discussion happening..

DownYonder

Oct. 3, 2007, 04:39 PM

I like Down Yonder's suggestion about contacting the Segers and see if they would consider adding Pony classes in the YH Championship - we just have to provide enough ponies to fill the classes.

Yes, and you might want to tell the Segers that you will follow up the idea with a formal written proposal detailing why you think pony dressage championships would be a good idea. List everyone you can think of in the U.S. that is showing/breeding dressage type ponies, and emphasize that it isn't just kids riding the ponies, but also increasing numbers of adult women. If they balk at the thought of a separate pony division with classes separate from the horse classes, ask them if they would consider a special pony award in each of the age categories. If there was a really cool and prestigious award for ponies, more and more people might be tempted to try for it, and as pony numbers increase in the y/h classes, you can then start looking to break them out into a separate division. You may have to be willing to start small and grow the concept as particpation increases.

Although I have no real involvement with ponies, I adore the dressage ponies and would love to see the little guys get their own national championshp or national division.