1000 WORDS [Archive] - Chronicle Forums

Bluey

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:20 AM

Just as people here are appalled to find that many people eat horse meat in Europe and many other places, so was I when I first came here and saw the big lick horses at the National Horse Show in Madison Square Gardens, stabled alongside the jumpers.:eek:

Those horses had rails around the stall, to keep from hitting their tail harnesses they lived in.
They had goofy shoes on their feet and walked odd and they were ridden in the longest shanked curb bits I had ever seen, by far, in my life.

The way they moved, they absolutely looked crippled to me, that had never seen but normally moving horses.

Too see that was grotesque, disturbing at best.

Later some breeds from South America, that threw their front legs around badly, which I grew up to see as a very bad conformation fault, were also shocking to me.

Seems that to alter an animal for our purposes, especially domesticated ones, has been what humans have done for centuries.

Who is to tell someone with a chihuahua that such little dogs are not really viable and are marginally sound and healthy to have a good quality of life?
How about bulldogs, or dogs with too long a back and dwarfism traits bred for in those too short legs, or too large to have a quality, long life?

We bred for too long horns in some cattle, no horns whatsoever in others, or for giving milk in such volume that requires too large bags.

Horses are not any different, we have bred for and used them as we see best, for our needs, be they to pull as large loads as we can make them, to have certain conformation features, to train them to jump cross country, or buck cowboys off in rodeos.
Too large, too little, oddly shaped or moving.

That has been the trade off with humans using animals, we shape and use them for our needs.
Sometimes it is hard to see where what we do for our purposses may be crossing into abuse.

What may constitute abuse changes with where you stand and your experiences.
Remember, we may demand that others do what we think is right and quit practices we think wrong with the animals under their care, at the cost that they may do the same to what we think we are right doing with our animals.

Why? Because ANY of our breeding and using of our animals, as the animal rights people keep reminding us, is NOT in the best interest of any animal out there.

We have to agree to use animals, then set minimum standards for their use, as we already have, to avoid outright abuse and then permit the rest of humans to use them as they see the need to do so, within those limits.

Do we want to ban big lick horses, horse slaughter, milk cows, short legged dogs, goat barbecue?
Hard to draw a line that all can agree on. :confused:

Dispatcher

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:34 AM

are those pictures what I think---the horse's hoof was pulled off?????? That's ungodly....

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 16, 2007, 11:41 AM

ditto - I am not sure what I am seeing?

I went to a show at William Woods, and the arena was adjacent to the saddlebred barn - and I had to ask why they had rails around the inside.

I just can't get over why people feel the need to do that for an "artifical" ride, without any thought to the comfort of the horse?

ASB Stars

Sep. 16, 2007, 12:05 PM

there is arguing for the sake of hearing one's voice, or seeing one's words.

I think that any reasonable person understands that soring is cruelty. Period. You need to draw a line at some point. I absolutely understand the concept of a slippery slope- when you define the lines, there are always those gray areas- but anything where someone is knowingly causing a horse (or any other animal) ongoing discomfort and pain is just plain wrong.

I am no advocate of the big stacks of pads, etc., however, while they may fall into the gray area for some, I'd be happier if they didn't put packages on any breed of horse. I have to sit on my hands on that one, however.

Pommederue

Sep. 16, 2007, 01:12 PM

Oh my. That is awful!

spookhorse

Sep. 16, 2007, 01:56 PM

ditto - I am not sure what I am seeing?

You are seeing hoof wall and laminae pulled off by the weight of the shoe, pads, yet kept on by the band. And no doubt the horse's action of throwing his front hooves up and out had something to do with it...

Close to home, close to home :( I am glad every day that I bought Buddy before some other BL trainer picked him up to try and de-scar him just to start all over!

Aggie4Bar

Sep. 16, 2007, 02:51 PM

Do we want to ban big lick horses, horse slaughter, milk cows, short legged dogs, goat barbecue?
Hard to draw a line that all can agree on. :confused:Bluey, I'm not able to follow your logic.

In the list above, breeding the TWH for extravagent gaits would better compare to breeding Holstein cows for more milk, short-legged dogs for even shorter legs, etc. However, BL steps beyond creation of the animal into applied external forces. Pumping a milk cow full of additional hormones to further caplitalize on milk production might be a comparison since the pads and weights are also provided to exaggerate and enhance natural attributes.

The better question would be, where to we draw the line with regard to applied external forces for human satisfaction?

Red Barn

Sep. 16, 2007, 05:28 PM

Agree with Aggie4bar.

While I understand the Libertarian fear of legislating virtually ANYTHING - because God forbid Bubba should be prevented from making an honest living selling nuclear weapons and child porn - I really do think that ripping an animal's foot off by slow degrees falls well outside any "gray area" that one might care to mention.

Pat

Sep. 16, 2007, 06:30 PM

ditto aggie and redbarn. Breeding animals for specific conformational and gait qualities versus applying harmful devices to affect gait is apples and oranges.

There is no gray area here. Cows aren't bred for increased production or no horns simply for our entertainment. And breeding polled cows is for safety, not to hurt them. However, BL walkers are tortured daily with those shoes and many other things, simply for entertainment. Even if the trainer/riders of a BL horse doesn't resort to the "other things", they still willingly subject them to those shoes. Even if they aren't out to hurt a horse to get thier jollies, they are still subjecting them to pain and potential life threatening injury just for a certain look.

Don't forget that these creatures also tend to spend thier whole life in a stall. If they play around in those shoes, they are subject to loosing them and/or blowing a tendon. So they don't generally get turned out. Something I never thought about until a friend of mine worked for a Saddlebred barn. Imagine our horror when we realized the horses just never went for turnout! Blech. She didn't last there long.

Look at those photos again and remember that they fell off a living horse.

Anyone who's ridden more than a few times knows you really can't force a horse to do things it doesn't want to or physically cant do. If it's a slow horse, you wont win the race, if his scope is 3'6'', you wont be doing the Grand Prix, but you can slap on a pair of crazy shoes and make them do bizarre things with thier feet.

Even standardbreds are carefully shod to perfect the break over point just to help keep them on gait. It was once common practice to nail on toe wieghts to keep them on gait. Selective breeding and skillful training has made that extremely rare today. "Park Trot" doesn't come immediatly to mind with a standardbred, but if you put the right pads and bell boots on them, they snap thier knees like nobody's business. Shoes can make horsess do the strangest things.

I'm not a crazy barefooter. I don't shoe my horses because it works for me, now. But hell hath no fury if you shoe my horse wrong. Quick my horse and you'd better run, buddy.

And no, I don't think cats/dogs/ whatever's should be bred to have a particular "look" if that "look" is a health risk for the animal. but it's still apples and oranges.

Pat

Sep. 16, 2007, 06:32 PM

PT or email me, Spook horse. I need to know some stuff about your harness and other such things.

Lou-Lou

Sep. 16, 2007, 06:50 PM

I feel sick. That's absolutely horrid. :(

Dispatcher

Sep. 17, 2007, 06:49 PM

[QUOTE=spookhorse;2685954]You are seeing hoof wall and laminae pulled off by the weight of the shoe, pads, yet kept on by the band. And no doubt the horse's action of throwing his front hooves up and out had something to do with it...

Is it possible that this happened while the horse was still alive??! Where did these pictures come from ?? I'd sure like to know the story behind this, other that "this is what can happen to BL horses"

Auventera Two

Sep. 17, 2007, 08:31 PM

If you are not quite sure of where you stand on these issues, if you are a person who like to train, ride or watch the BL horse....or if you are a person who does not see the harm in "Touching Em, just a bit"

Please go check these pixs out...The Act Of Soring aside...here's another danger of being a padded horse....OR if you think the [problems with The Tennessee Walking Horse is bothersome to you or has nothing to do with you...remember this..."It'S ALL ABOUT THE HORSE!"

http://www.walkinonranch.com/1000Words.html

The Preacher

That is absolutely horrific. It's abuse. Plain and simple. I am away in Idaho right now at an equine podiatry class. I printed those pictures to show our class tomorrow just what can happen when people engage in such stupid, abusive shoeing practices. How utterly sickening. :no:

Amwrider

Sep. 17, 2007, 11:05 PM

Trainerlady. How often does this happen or is this a freak occurrence?

I have had plenty of saddlebreds with wedges and turnbuckles and they have thrown shoes, yet I have never seen anything even remotely close to this occur in any of them.

I am more inclined to think that this was a freak occurence, that or the trainer was trying to sore the horse with something hidden under the bands of the turnbuckle (such as some kind of tack or nail) that weakend the hoof wall in order to cause this kind of separation. Pressure shoeing a horse by inserting something between the foot and pad, or possibly tacking something under the turnbuckle (and then tightening the turnbuckle) would sore a horse and possibly not be picked up by the DQP or "sniffers" correct?

Pads and bands don't cause this or else the magazines and internet would be awash in similar stories, and the stories would not be limited to just BL TWH. Turnbuckles support the back of the shoe to releive the pull of gravity on the nails.

There were other factors involved to cause this much damage.

http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/arbordale_photos/DALLAS%201999%20Morgan%20English%20Pleasure/

spookhorse

Sep. 17, 2007, 11:26 PM

There were other factors involved to cause this much damage.

The fact that the pads and shoes weigh upwards of 5 lbs each and are being thrown around on the end of a horse's leg would be the other factor. That is way too much weight to be strapped to a horse's hooves.

spookhorse

Sep. 17, 2007, 11:28 PM

Is it possible that this happened while the horse was still alive??! Where did these pictures come from ?? I'd sure like to know the story behind this, other that "this is what can happen to BL horses"

It is indeed possible to have happened while the horse was alive and I have heard from people who have seen it first hand :(

Amwrider

Sep. 17, 2007, 11:57 PM

The fact that the pads and shoes weigh upwards of 5 lbs each and are being thrown around on the end of a horse's leg would be the other factor. That is way too much weight to be strapped to a horse's hooves.

What is the story behind this particular horse? Plenty of BL horses carry this much weight (possibly even more) and this doesn't happen to them. Satisfy my curiosity, tell me about THIS particular horse.

I don't care for the BL stuff at all, but I don't take things like this at face value.

Personally, the Morgan I linked to in my previous post is padded (no turnbuckles though). He is carrying a 10 ounce package on each front foot. I hate labored movement and do not advocate "packing the anvil" onto the horse's hoof....however, I do just smell a bunch of propaganda here.

You show us photos, don't give us any details, don't even tell us where the photos come from, but want us to believe what you tell us? Oh...I forgot, you haven't told us. You are leaving it up to the imaginations of people that may or may not be familiar with padded horses other than "what they read on the internet."

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 12:09 AM

It is indeed possible to have happened while the horse was alive and I have heard from people who have seen it first hand :(

So...you have never seen it first hand?

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:05 AM

What is the story behind this particular horse? Plenty of BL horses carry this much weight (possibly even more) and this doesn't happen to them. Satisfy my curiosity, tell me about THIS particular horse.

I don't care for the BL stuff at all, but I don't take things like this at face value.

Personally, the Morgan I linked to in my previous post is padded (no turnbuckles though). He is carrying a 10 ounce package on each front foot. I hate labored movement and do not advocate "packing the anvil" onto the horse's hoof....however, I do just smell a bunch of propaganda here.

You show us photos, don't give us any details, don't even tell us where the photos come from, but want us to believe what you tell us? Oh...I forgot, you haven't told us. You are leaving it up to the imaginations of people that may or may not be familiar with padded horses other than "what they read on the internet."

I hope you aren't directing the "you" to me as I'm not the original poster of the photos. I'm just answering questions with my own knowledge of the subject. But I have run across this happening in my research and experience with TWHs. Yes, most of what I've heard is ancedotal as I haven't seen it in person, but I trust my sources.

Many walkers carry this weight and it doesn't happen to them THAT WE KNOW OF. But I don't think there is any statistical evidence to let us know how much actually does happen. I doubt that too many trainers are going to fess up that they crippled horses by their shoeing methods any more than they will admit to soring/fixing their horses.

If you start digging into allowable weights of shoes for many of the different horse organizations (http://www.lesspub.com/s3/site/pdf/afj/ShoeingRules05.pdf), you will find that there is no upper limit to how much shoe and pad weight a TWH is allowed to carry in the Big Lick or Plantation divisions. A maximum weight limit of 2 lbs is set for the Lite Shod, Trail Pleasure or Country Pleasure divisions. Most other breed orgs have a limit of 16 oz for shoes and nails with no other weight allowed. I don't know about you, but I believe that 5 lbs swinging from the end of a horse's leg at 20 mph or so could be potentially very damaging to not only the hooves, but the very make-up of the legs including tendons, muscles, and bone.

Dispatcher

Sep. 18, 2007, 07:58 AM

Rusty Stirrup

Sep. 18, 2007, 08:09 AM

How can one defend this practice when they do they to TWO YEAR OLDS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y

Auventera Two

Sep. 18, 2007, 10:18 AM

I have now been through 4 COMPLETE hoof and leg disections, removing everything from the hide down to the fascia to each ligament, tendon, veins, nerves, arteries, and bone of the equine hoof and leg. And I have learned now, more than ever, that there is NO WAY in good conscience, a horse owner knowledgeable in equine hoof and leg anatomy could EVER put such devices on the horse's hooves.

You big lick people owe it to your horses to attend some equine podiatry classes and really learn what soft tissue you are affecting! :eek: :no: It is blatantly clear that you don't know the first thing about soft tissue of the equine limb and foot and you haven't got the foggiest clue how you are detrimentally affecting the horse.

I dare you to attend. Get up close and personal to the disection. Run your fingers over the articulating surfaces of every joint. Pull on the coronary band after it's been removed from the hoof. Lift the tendons and ligaments, look underneath them. Feel the ungular cartilages and digital cushion.

SEE for your bloody self how adding weight to the end of the limb stresses every soft tissue from the shoulder down in a detrimental way. Until you take it upon yourself to thoroughly research what you are doing, and how you are destroying your horse's front end, you will never have an ounce of respect from me.

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 12:32 PM

Not all pads are harmful, not all shoes are harmful, not all turnbuckles are harmful.

Nobody has yet answered how they came across these photos, what in particular happened, what horse was it, did the horse really have to be put down? There is more to the story here and it is not being told.

Auventura Two, do you think I get my poor widdle feewings hurt because I don't have the respect of someone I don't even know?

What I do know is that I DO put heavier shoes, wedges (no more than two) and bands on my horses and yes, they have thrown shoes before. But I have horses in their 20s that are SOUND.

I put my trust in THAT before I put my trust into someone from the internet with a personal agenda that looks for every piece of propaganda she can find.

So what, you have disected legs. Have you disected the leg of a big lick horse? Hmmmm, I think not. How about this, if this is your personal mission...to outlaw pads, bands and heavy shoes, how about you find as many big lick legs as you can, then find some thoroughbred legs, some saddlebred legs and some wild mustang legs. Disect them, take photos, send your results to the AAEP. Maybe then I will take you seriously. Until then, my horses will tell me.

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:02 PM

What I do know is that I DO put heavier shoes, wedges (no more than two) and bands on my horses and yes, they have thrown shoes before. But I have horses in their 20s that are SOUND.

But are you putting on 5 lbs of shoe and pad PER HOOF on your horses?

If not then you aren't dealing with weight anywhere near what the Big Lick trainers are putting on their horses. You mentioned 10 oz of shoes/pads in a post, which is less than 1 lb (as I'm sure you know).

As for getting on TrainerLady for not being back on this thread, it's entirely possible that TrainerLady does not spend as much time on the PC as some of us and just hasn't checked back in.

jacksmom

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:03 PM

i grew up with walking horses in my backyard. i recently posted a pic of my grandfather on his twh katie.

when i started to show his horses, back when i was a kid, we'd watch the BL horses warm up for their classes. i asked him why anyone would want to subject a horse to that, it just looked unnatural. he said he didn't know and that he'd never do that to any of his horses. he said that a correctly bred walker should walk and not need any of those devices to gait. over the years he and i have disagreed on horsekeeping practices, but this one is something we completely agree on. he had a trainer try to push him to put these on one of his horses, and when he kept pushing after a firm 'no', granddad fired him.

so, call me a snob, but i've always considered the BL horses to be the result of an owner trying to salvage something out of an inferiorly bred horse with less than desirable movement. some folks would call it polishing a turd.

--------- flamesuit zipped, buckled, snapped, and velcroed ----------

MSP

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:25 PM

Oh for pity sakes!

No this is not something that happens all the time, I think calling it a freak occurrence is probably a good description. If it did you would have heard about before now. Some one is just stirring the pot!

My standard bred lost as much hoof as what is on the less severe break shown in those pictures thanks to a bad shoeing job. I wouldn’t say that happens all the time because based on everyone’s reactions you all have never seen anything like this.

He lived! I found an excellent Farrier recommended by a vet and he spent a year working with me to protect his feet until his hoof grew back in.

For all we know this could have been the fault of the Farrier. Do I like BL pads? No, but lets not get hysterical! Any thing you put on your horse can cause him harm; anything! You take a hard look at what you put on your horse and realize some bizarre accident could happen because of it. Some dangerous items: shoes, pads, halters, saddles, blankets, lead ropes, tie downs, side reins, bridles, bits… on and on!

BTW, the BL horses can gait just fine with or with out pads. The pads are to give them the higher leg. I have worked with several ex-BL horses and they were all naturally gaited. :rolleyes:

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:31 PM

some folks would call it polishing a turd.

:lol::lol::lol:

I like that, will have to remember it.

I don't like it either, not my cup of tea. Give me a horse that trots any day, but there are plenty of people that do like it and do so without making their horses hurt, lame, etc.

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:38 PM

But are you putting on 5 lbs of shoe and pad PER HOOF on your horses?

Did you weigh the photo? How do you know how much this shoe weighed? Pads weigh very little, you are making an assumption that this was a 5 pound shoe.

Paragon

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:41 PM

Of course someone was stirring the pot. This is COTH, where it's a delightful pastime to talk about controversial subjects, particularly those seeming so innocuous as Natural Horsemanship and Gypsy horses. Everyone has a grand old time.

Daydream Believer

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:42 PM

asb2517

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:50 PM

Did you weigh the photo? How do you know how much this shoe weighed? Pads weigh very little, you are making an assumption that this was a 5 pound shoe.

I agree...who says this is a 5 pound shoe? Sure it is awful when you lose that much foot, but the horse had to be put down??? We have had Saddlebreds lose ALOT of foot and so far none DIED! Sounds like someone is just trying to upset people. That shoe looks really old to me too. Look at how rusty the bands are. How long ago did this happen? And how long were the horse's feet to begin with?

kellyb

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:54 PM

How can one defend this practice when they do they to TWO YEAR OLDS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y

I love all breeds but this is the ugliest thing I have ever seen. Most of the babies in that class look like they should still be out in a pasture somewhere, growing up :(

twhrider13

Sep. 18, 2007, 01:56 PM

Propaganda beats logic every time.

That's all I have to say about that.

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:05 PM

I agree...who says this is a 5 pound shoe? Sure it is awful when you lose that much foot, but the horse had to be put down??? We have had Saddlebreds lose ALOT of foot and so far none DIED! Sounds like someone is just trying to upset people. That shoe looks really old to me too. Look at how rusty the bands are. How long ago did this happen? And how long were the horse's feet to begin with?

I noticed the rusty bands also.

I have had horses lose hoof wall also if a shoe is thrown, not this much horn on the toe though. The farrier would just build it back up with acrylic. Never had to put any of them down.

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:05 PM

Did you weigh the photo? How do you know how much this shoe weighed? Pads weigh very little, you are making an assumption that this was a 5 pound shoe.

Considering that every Big Lick pad and shoe "stack" that I have ever weighed (which is every one that I have gotten my hands on that was not attached to a horse's hoof) has weighed in the 4.5-5 lb range, I think that it's a valid assumption.

How many shoes/pads have I weighed? Probably 50 or so different packages including the get-up my own horse had on before I bought him and it was pulled. I worked briefly in the industry when I was younger and more naive and had access to such things and a trainer who was willing to teach me how to win.

One or two pads don't weigh much on their own, but when you are talking 4 inches of pads plus a several pound shoe, it adds up.

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:09 PM

Considering that every Big Lick pad and shoe "stack" that I have ever weighed (which is every one that I have gotten my hands on that was not attached to a horse's hoof) has weighed in the 4.5-5 lb range, I think that it's a valid assumption.

How many shoes/pads have I weighed? Probably 50 or so different packages including the get-up my own horse had on before I bought him and it was pulled. I worked briefly in the industry when I was younger and more naive and had access to such things and a trainer who was willing to teach me how to win.

One or two pads don't weigh much on their own, but when you are talking 4 inches of pads plus a several pound shoe, it adds up.

While in the industry, may I ask how many times did you see a horse throw a shoe and lose enough hoof wall where he had to be put down?

That is what this post is about

big shoes + big stacks of pads + bands = thrown shoe + dead horse

How many times did you see it happen?

asb2517

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:14 PM

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:16 PM

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:22 PM

As for getting on TrainerLady for not being back on this thread, it's entirely possible that TrainerLady does not spend as much time on the PC as some of us and just hasn't checked back in.

I don't buy this. She found plenty of time to edit the contents of her website in her initial post "I have been asked to further explain...." yet she won't come here. Hit & run propaganga and she avoids direct questions.

You want to know why the horse tore its foot like this? The band is too low. Any breed that allows pads and bands has a stipulation that the band must be 1/2 inch from the coronet on the horse. (look it up yourself on the link Spookhorse herself put on post #23).

This band is decidedly much lower than that and it is placed where it is covering some of the nail clinches. Horse steps on himself and instead of the clinches coming out they are held in place and the pressure of the band across the lower half of the toe caused the break this high up.

It is not the shoes, it is not the pads, it is not the bands. It is improper application of these that caused this unfortunate accident.

asb2517

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:23 PM

[QUOTE=spookhorse;2690023]This is what the hooves of a Big Lick horse look like without shoes and pads strapped to them. A little long wouldn't you say?QUOTE]

Again...this is ONE horse.

Yes they are long that's why I asked how long the horse was that lost the shoe in question. If the horse lost 3 inches of foot and he was only 4 inches long then that's a huge problem. If the horse has 7 inches of foot and loses 3 inches it is still a problem, but not as huge. Is it typical for a TWH to have really long feet in addition to the pads/shoes? I know we would rather have natural long foot and less pads if possible.

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:27 PM

This is what the hooves of a Big Lick horse look like without shoes and pads strapped to them. A little long wouldn't you say?

Left11-16-06.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/Left11-16-06.jpg)
Front11-16-06.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/Front11-16-06.jpg)
Right11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/Right11-16-06.jpg)
LeftFore11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/LeftFore11-16-06.jpg)
LeftForeHeel11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/LeftForeHeel11-16-06.jpg)
RightFore11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/RightFore11-16-06.jpg)
RightForeHeel11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/RightForeHeel11-16-06.jpg)

Where are the nail holes?

This is a poor barefoot trim with a bad angle. The long toe, low heel as pictured would make the horse subject to laminitis and founder as the pressure from the breakover would cause tears to the laminae that could eventually pull away from the horn and allow the tip of the coffin bone to pull loose and drop down.

This is why horses are padded higher at the heel, to grow a longer toe, you need to increase the hight of the heel to bring the angle back to match the angle of the pastern.

Sorry, you don't fool me and you should fire whoever trimmed your horse like that.

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:31 PM

While in the industry, may I ask how many times did you see a horse throw a shoe and lose enough hoof wall where he had to be put down?

That is what this post is about

big shoes + big stacks of pads + bands = thrown shoe + dead horse

How many times did you see it happen?

I did say brief and luckily I never saw it happen personally, that would have gotten me out even faster than I did get out. I left when I discovered the soring and started weighing shoes and using my own intelligence to figure out that as much as I love the horses, that crap was not something that I could condone. It's abuse on so many levels... I found out later that the trainer I worked for had just come off a one year suspension for soring. This was back when they weren't persecuting quite so much.

Why don't you go ask those that strap 5 lbs onto a horse's hoof and sore their horse into some monstrosity of a gait and see if you can get an answer because I bet they will tell you it never does happen. Remember that most of these are the same people that smile and act so nice to you but don't think anything of putting caustic chemicals on their horses' legs until the horse is laying down in it's stall groaning in pain.

I've told you what I've seen, I've told you my evidence on shoe and pad weights, I've told you that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to explain why 5 lbs on a horse's hoof isn't good. You have made up your mind to play devil's advocate, but why don't you open your mind and think for yourself whether or not what is occurring to these horses is right in the pursuit of money, ribbons, and fame in their world.

It looks like you are used to thinking of pads and shoes on a horse weighing about a pound each, which is nothing. That is not what is being used here and if you really want to know, you will go out and start looking for the evidence yourself instead of trying to pick a fight here. I bet any of the performance TWH owners here would let you come out to their farms and let you weigh old shoe packages. Of course knowing that you would be looking for anything else untoward, that's the day that they would clean up their barns and tack rooms of anything that could be misconstrued as possibly being used as a soring agent- mustard oil, croton oil, Koppertox mixed with DMSO or work grease, etc. Course you can always look for scars on the ankles, those don't go away overnight, just after a good application of salicylic acid...

Bearhunter

Sep. 18, 2007, 02:43 PM

Let's face it folks....the battle will never be won here. Those of you who don't "understand" the TWH folks aren't ever going to accept their methods whether extreme or not. This was cruel beyond belief (actually sickening) no doubt, and many people are going to believe the entire TWH industry is like this no matter what and no one here is going to convince them otherwise.

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:03 PM

Where are the nail holes?

This is a poor barefoot trim with a bad angle. The long toe, low heel as pictured would make the horse subject to laminitis and founder as the pressure from the breakover would cause tears to the laminae that could eventually pull away from the horn and allow the tip of the coffin bone to pull loose and drop down.

This is why horses are padded higher at the heel, to grow a longer toe, you need to increase the hight of the heel to bring the angle back to match the angle of the pastern.

Sorry, you don't fool me and you should fire whoever trimmed your horse like that.

I'm not fooling you, the horse really was a padded horse. He'd been running around like this for several months when I got him. The nail holes had grown out and worn off, but the shape of the foot from his padded days was essentially the same. He does have very tough feet and doesn't chip so that probably is why they look like they weren't shod.

I knew the horse as a Big Lick horse when the former owner had him as he was owned by a co-worker and boarded where we both worked. The former owner trained and showed him Big Lick but when he couldn't afford his horses, pulled the shoes and pads and turned him out in a field.

You can be sure that I would have never kept a farrier that trimmed a horse like this and it's insulting that you believe that I let someone do this to my horse. And from someone who is fighting assumptions no less, tsk tsk... I bought the horse the day before I took those photos. I was quite shocked that the former owner had just pulled the shoes and pads like that, but I hadn't seen the horse in several months when I offered to buy him and went to pick him up so that is what I was greeted with.

5 months later with therapeutic trims every three weeks:
Front (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/BuddyFront3-15-07.jpg)
Left (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/BuddyLeftSide3-15-07.jpg)
Right (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/BuddyRightSide3-15-07.jpg)
Left Sole (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/BuddyLeftSole3-15-07.jpg)
Left Heel (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/BuddyLeftHeel3-15-07.jpg)
Right Sole (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/BuddyRightSole3-15-07.jpg)
Right Heel (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/BuddyRightHeel3-15-07.jpg)

Dispatcher

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:07 PM

I, for one, am not fighting any battle! Nor do I think that all TWH folks practice soring and the other atrocities. That has been disproved over and over again in the various threads on this BB. I am under the impression that those on this BB who have padded TWH's do not pad anywhere near as much as the horse in the pictures of the original post.

I actually just wanted to know HOW the horse's hoof was pulled off. And that has been explained. I just didn't grasp the concept of the weight of the shoes/pads and the band that holds them on.

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:11 PM

Again...this is ONE horse.

Yes they are long that's why I asked how long the horse was that lost the shoe in question. If the horse lost 3 inches of foot and he was only 4 inches long then that's a huge problem. If the horse has 7 inches of foot and loses 3 inches it is still a problem, but not as huge. Is it typical for a TWH to have really long feet in addition to the pads/shoes? I know we would rather have natural long foot and less pads if possible.

Yes it is one horse but it is typical of what I have seen and what you would see if you studied them in person. I can't take photos when I go to shows or sales as the people involved don't take kindly to it.

The horse's photos I posted had over 7 inches of hoof where it was grown out. He has about 5 inches now and is a very large horse. When we trimmed him slowly down towards normal, the farrier rasped the hoof in a downward manner each time and never did anything to cause more damage to the hoof.

It is typical of BL horse hooves to look like this- very long toe with a very cut-back heel which is often contracted.

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:18 PM

I did say brief and luckily I never saw it happen personally, that would have gotten me out even faster than I did get out. I left when I discovered the soring and started weighing shoes and using my own intelligence to figure out that as much as I love the horses, that crap was not something that I could condone. It's abuse on so many levels... I found out later that the trainer I worked for had just come off a one year suspension for soring. This was back when they weren't persecuting quite so much.

Why don't you go ask those that strap 5 lbs onto a horse's hoof and sore their horse into some monstrosity of a gait and see if you can get an answer because I bet they will tell you it never does happen. Remember that most of these are the same people that smile and act so nice to you but don't think anything of putting caustic chemicals on their horses' legs until the horse is laying down in it's stall groaning in pain.

I've told you what I've seen, I've told you my evidence on shoe and pad weights, I've told you that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to explain why 5 lbs on a horse's hoof isn't good. You have made up your mind to play devil's advocate, but why don't you open your mind and think for yourself whether or not what is occurring to these horses is right in the pursuit of money, ribbons, and fame in their world.

It looks like you are used to thinking of pads and shoes on a horse weighing about a pound each, which is nothing. That is not what is being used here and if you really want to know, you will go out and start looking for the evidence yourself instead of trying to pick a fight here. I bet any of the performance TWH owners here would let you come out to their farms and let you weigh old shoe packages. Of course knowing that you would be looking for anything else untoward, that's the day that they would clean up their barns and tack rooms of anything that could be misconstrued as possibly being used as a soring agent- mustard oil, croton oil, Koppertox mixed with DMSO or work grease, etc. Course you can always look for scars on the ankles, those don't go away overnight, just after a good application of salicylic acid...

You do wrong to assume I have never had walking horses in the barns I have boarded at or managed. I am well aware of how much the packages can and do weigh and I am well aware of what some people do to their horses to make them sore. Soring was a quick ticket to hit the road and we did tell some boarders to hit the road when we started seeing kerosene and Gojo in the tackroom.

asb2517

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:19 PM

I can't take photos when I go to shows or sales as the people involved don't take kindly to it.

It seems like you wouldn't care if they took kindly to it or not - since you seem to be on a crusade to ban all that is padded! Then current pictures could be posted. Not pictures of some horse that had been running out in a field for months without being trimmed, or a picture of a shoe which might be 20 years old!

goeslikestink

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:22 PM

my feelings-- its not a show its not good horsemanship its not the fualt of the horses that of that type that are bred for that type of show work--

its barbaric , its cruel, its abusive, its time for the goverment to act in each region or state

you can still show a horse without the nessecary of padded feet to such an extent that the gaulity of life for these poor animals is none exsitant

they say have some respect for our sport -- i say have the resepct for those that gain you to be where you are in your chosen sport or disapline

for i ask you these people that do this --
would you stand on platform shoes all day- and not be able to sleep or eat
your proper meals-- would you stand on your platforms shoes all day all night
in a box--- no you wouldnt your ankles would ache you could fall or trip and break your leg so easily-------------

then please dont ask the horse to-- his play time and his space of being outside on the grassy fields to tun with his / her mates and be a horse in there space and there time
i respect my space every has there own space to do the things they want to do

but these horse can only look over a stable door and wish---------------

soome people moan about back yards and skinny horses abused horses etc
and some people rescue those horses from there torture be it mental or pysical
and some big lick people do-------see that

i wish you would see whats in front of your nose - as what you have in own yards
and the troture you putting these lovely noble creatures to do its abot status
profit------------ its never me --

respect -- thats a big word for people that see it and only cowards run from it and givve excuses----------- there is no excuse for abuse in any from-- period

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:24 PM

I, for one, am not fighting any battle!

Which is precisely why it still happens- not enough people will stand up for it or any other number of other abusive practices. It's easier to sit at home and make excuses than it is to try and stop it from happening.

Nor do I think that all TWH folks practice soring and the other atrocities. That has been disproved over and over again in the various threads on this BB. I am under the impression that those on this BB who have padded TWH's do not pad anywhere near as much as the horse in the pictures of the original post.

Not all performance Walker trainers sore, but the majority in this division does because it is too hard to be competitive in it unless they do. Remember the Celebration last year? The majority of horses going into it were disqualified (and one trainer attempted bribery of the ones who could show to try and get them to boycott the class).

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:27 PM

It seems like you wouldn't care if they took kindly to it or not - since you seem to be on a crusade to ban all that is padded! Then current pictures could be posted. Not pictures of some horse that had been running out in a field for months without being trimmed, or a picture of a shoe which might be 20 years old!

Lets see, I could take photos and have my life threatened and my camera broken, or I could stick around to be a thorn in the side of a nasty industry. WWYD?

You say months like it was 6 or so, I said a several months which is only as long as trim or so and not nearly enough to cause the hoof in my photos. Hooves like that take WORK, not neglect.

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:27 PM

I'm not fooling you, the horse really was a padded horse. He'd been running around like this for several months when I got him. The nail holes had grown out and worn off, but the shape of the foot from his padded days was essentially the same.

So the pads had been removed, and he had been running around like this (barefoot) for several monts when you got him....

Please explain this comment you made on page 2.......

How many shoes/pads have I weighed? Probably 50 or so different packages including the get-up my own horse had on before I bought him and it was pulled.

So make up your mind here. Was he barefoot when you bought him, or was he padded and you pulled the shoe to weigh it? You can't have your story both ways.

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:30 PM

So the pads had been removed, and he had been running around like this (barefoot) for several monts when you got him....

Please explain this comment you made on page 2.......

So make up your mind here. Was he barefoot when you bought him, or was he padded and you pulled the shoe to weigh it? You can't have your story both ways.

I didn't say that *I* had the pads pulled, I said that I had weighed them after they were pulled. Remember, I worked at the barn he was boarded at until he was turned out (at another farm) His old stacks were sitting around after he was gone and I weighed them.

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:32 PM

You do wrong to assume I have never had walking horses in the barns I have boarded at or managed. I am well aware of how much the packages can and do weigh and I am well aware of what some people do to their horses to make them sore. Soring was a quick ticket to hit the road and we did tell some boarders to hit the road when we started seeing kerosene and Gojo in the tackroom.

If you were really aware of the weight, you wouldn't have made comments asking how I know.

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:44 PM

If you were really aware of the weight, you wouldn't have made comments asking how I know.

Whatever :rolleyes:

I wanted to make sure you knew because there are people out there, like Auventura Two, who last year stated spewing a bunch of garbage (under the name Two Simple) over stuff she had "read on the internet" and I wanted to ask what actual experience you had.

asb2517

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:50 PM

Lets see, I could take photos and have my life threatened and my camera broken, or I could stick around to be a thorn in the side of a nasty industry. WWYD?

Depends on how strongly I felt about it. I think if I felt as strongly as you do I would do what ever it takes. What are they going to do...hit you over the head with one of their horrible show packages??

You say months like it was 6 or so, I said a several months which is only as long as trim or so and not nearly enough to cause the hoof in my photos. Hooves like that take WORK, not neglect.

How many months do you think is several? Several to me is more than 3 or 4.

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 03:57 PM

What are they going to do...hit you over the head with one of their horrible show packages??

I just spewed Diet Coke on my keyboard.:D

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:03 PM

asb2517

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:04 PM

I just spewed Diet Coke on my keyboard.:D

Then my work for the day is done...I can go home now!! :lol:

I'm just excited I figured out how to do the double quote thing!! :D

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:08 PM

Depends on how strongly I felt about it. I think if I felt as strongly as you do I would do what ever it takes. What are they going to do...hit you over the head with one of their horrible show packages??

How many months do you think is several? Several to me is more than 3 or 4.

It's been proven that many trainers are not above death threats or bribery. These guys play for keeps...

I would say several is 3 months. Not all that long, and as I said, not nearly long enough for a horse's hooves to grow like that.

When you look at hoof neglect cases, you are talking years to get into slipper shapes. When you look at poor trims gone wrong, you are talking years for the hooves to get really off kilter enough to see it with the naked eye, though you might feel a bad trims effect when the horse is off. It takes upwards of a year for a hoof to grow in fully new from top to bottom, obviously it would take some time to get a hoof into the shape that this one was.

goeslikestink

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:11 PM

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:12 PM

spookhorse

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:15 PM

spokyhorse you have thrush and mud fever in your horses feet
you need to clean and wash out dry and apply stock holm tar
on and all around the foot including the bulbs of heal
then above iside the fetlock joint then put zinc and caster oil cream or nappy rash cream
wash out and repeat daily as your horses feet are to wet
and need a barrier to act for them

Thanks, but these are 10 month old photos- his hooves look nothing now like they did then... he is on 24/7 turn-out and his feet are grand :) And certainly not too wet with the drought KY is having!

Amwrider

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:24 PM

Just because you can find it done, does that make it right?
I only recall saying that poor farrier work is poor farrier work. Please show me where I say it is right to pack pounds on a hoof and keep a long toe with no heel.

This is a whole industry that is based upon crippling horses for cripe's sake!
This is a generalization and that is why I debate so much on these threads. How crippled is your horse?

CA ASB

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:35 PM

MSP

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:37 PM

You know there are plenty of people that are against soring, plenty of proof that the practice is abusive and painful to horses. However, I havn’t seen any information that suggest padding is abusive or debilitating to a horse. I have cared for horses that were on pads and I saw no ill affect from it. And, if so probably no more worse than a horse that was allowed to get obese or shoed badly for years.

So, until some one comes up with some real evidence and can show officials and the USDA that harm is being done what basis does anyone have for banning it. Now I would agree and I have seen horses shod badly that did cause the horse harm, but I’ve never seen any Farriers getting arrested for it. And if the limits that exist for the stacks are not enough then perhaps moving to get them changed would be a better idea. But again you would need some evidence.

There are plenty of things we do to horses that cause strain and probably damage to their legs and feet; will we have them banned next?

Just because you or I don’t like pads or the look of BL horses doesn’t mean they shouldn’t exist. Should they be allowed to abuse or cause their horses pain; of course not! No more than any other discipline.

I think this give some clear facts about the problems with gaited horse soring and I wish many of you would read it. It is not all about BL and never has been.
http://www.thegaitedhorse.com/morethansore.htm

MSP

Sep. 18, 2007, 04:48 PM

Actually, asb2517, these folks take it very seriously. My former room mate and I showed up at a big show in CA once with cameras/video. Both were confiscated by show management and we were both physically escorted from the premises with our cameras given back to us when we left. WWYD - call the cops? As soon as they would have left, we would have been in the same situation as previously - if not worse.

We hadn't even approached anyone, nor had we even taken a photo. We were strangers to their crowd and photographic equipment was not welcome unless it was in the hands of the known.

When you mess with someone's livelihood, they take it very, very seriously and circle the wagons quickly. The soring issues were a huge part of the split between ASBs & TWHs showing together out here. We now show with the FOSH folks and everyone gets along just fine.

Love the breed, but don't like many of the folks associated with 'em.

When I went to BL shows we always brought a camera and my SIL always took a video of her horse while showing. No one ever took her cameras away. I don't think anyone really knew who we were.

They must have been getting harassed to do that, maybe some COTHers were there protesting! :D

asb2517

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:01 AM

Auventera Two

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:27 AM

[quote=spookhorse;2690023]This is what the hooves of a Big Lick horse look like without shoes and pads strapped to them. A little long wouldn't you say?QUOTE]

Again...this is ONE horse.

Yes they are long that's why I asked how long the horse was that lost the shoe in question. If the horse lost 3 inches of foot and he was only 4 inches long then that's a huge problem. If the horse has 7 inches of foot and loses 3 inches it is still a problem, but not as huge. Is it typical for a TWH to have really long feet in addition to the pads/shoes? I know we would rather have natural long foot and less pads if possible.

Excuse me!? You can clearly see in the photo that the hoof was removed up to, and including, the dermal layer. That means blood and nerves. The portion of the capsule that is left in the shoe clearly shows the laminae. This means that the distal phalynx was left with no covering and no protection except a thin layer of vascular tissue. Try skinning all the structure off the bones of your feet and then walk around on your skeleton for a while and see how it feels. Oh, and don't forget that you weigh over 1,000 pounds. And you say this isn't a huge problem? You have a lot to learn about hoof anatomy.

Auventera Two

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:34 AM

I am sure I would be able to find plenty of examples of barefoot horses, flat shod horses, barrel racers, arabians, you name it, with feet that are crappily trimmed and have crushed heels and long toes, and bad angles and have contracted heels. It is not about the pads. Poor farrier work is poor farrier work

You're right. I just saw about 50 of them at an equine podiatry class. One cadaver a girl trimmed had over 3 inches of crushed and underrun heel. Barefoot. These cadavers were all from a local processing plant, and all the horses were obviously severely neglected. There were only a few trimmed/shod feet in the bunch that were race horses (evidenced by toe grabs and racing plates) that probably had broken down during a race and were euthed.

But the problem is, long footed breed trainers and farriers think this is DESIRABLE. It's not due to neglect. Not at all! The horses are purposely trimmed to be "long footed." I subscribe to the American Farriers Journal and every few issues or so they have an article on trimming and shoeing the long footed horse, and how you do everything different than on a normal footed horse. Long footed horses "need" all that excess to throw the feet up higher. Encourage more action.

They are purposely cultivated into long, undershot heels, freaskishly long toes, and then a package of some sort nailed to it.

And yes, they want long footed horses to have a really long foot because then they can put bigger pads on it. You can't have a 3" hoof with 7" of padding sticking out the front. But you CAN have a 5 or 6 inch toe with 7" of padding sticking out the front. ;)

asb2517

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:38 AM

[quote=asb2517;2690041]

Excuse me!? You can clearly see in the photo that the hoof was removed up to, and including, the dermal layer. That means blood and nerves. The portion of the capsule that is left in the shoe clearly shows the laminae. This means that the distal phalynx was left with no covering and no protection except a thin layer of vascular tissue. Try skinning all the structure off the bones of your feet and then walk around on your skeleton for a while and see how it feels. Oh, and don't forget that you weigh over 1,000 pounds. And you say this isn't a huge problem? You have a lot to learn about hoof anatomy.

I BELIEVE what I said was that if a horse looses 3 inches of foot and only has 4 that is a huge problem, but if a horse has 7 inches and looses 3 it's not as huge. The horse still has 4 inches of foot. I admit I am not an expert, what I was questioning was how long is a typical TWH's hoof before the pads?? I'm sure that the horse who lost the shoe in the picture was in pain, but what was posted was that the horse had to be put down and THAT is what I was questioning, as I had never heard of such a thing. But then I guess I'm just an idiot.

Auventera Two

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:41 AM

Actually, asb2517, these folks take it very seriously. My former room mate and I showed up at a big show in CA once with cameras/video. Both were confiscated by show management and we were both physically escorted from the premises with our cameras given back to us when we left. WWYD - call the cops? As soon as they would have left, we would have been in the same situation as previously - if not worse.

We hadn't even approached anyone, nor had we even taken a photo. We were strangers to their crowd and photographic equipment was not welcome unless it was in the hands of the known.

When you mess with someone's livelihood, they take it very, very seriously and circle the wagons quickly. The soring issues were a huge part of the split between ASBs & TWHs showing together out here. We now show with the FOSH folks and everyone gets along just fine.

Love the breed, but don't like many of the folks associated with 'em.

What I think people need to realize is that for most big lick trainers, this isn't just a fun hobby to do on the side instead of watching fooze ball. This is big money, good 'ole boy, industry of the deep south. It's crooked and wicked. Sure, some people just do it for fun but for the majority of big hand players, this is a way of life, and bread and butter on the table.

The entire city of Shelbyville,TN NEEDS this industry. Did you get that? They NEED this industry. This is nothing like dressage in Chicago or jumpers in Ocala. The entire city of Shelbyville would shut down if the big lick industry were wiped out. Their local newspaper has as much big lick stuff in it every week as it does politics and local happenings.

goeslikestink

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:44 AM

aventura

i totally agree with you on this one always have done

Auventera Two

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:59 AM

aventura

i totally agree with you on this one always have done

Thanks GLS. This topic makes my blood boil. The inhumanity of humans is our greatest detriment.

MSP

Sep. 20, 2007, 02:28 PM

You're right. I just saw about 50 of them at an equine podiatry class. One cadaver a girl trimmed had over 3 inches of crushed and underrun heel. Barefoot. These cadavers were all from a local processing plant, and all the horses were obviously severely neglected. There were only a few trimmed/shod feet in the bunch that were race horses (evidenced by toe grabs and racing plates) that probably had broken down during a race and were euthed.

But the problem is, long footed breed trainers and farriers think this is DESIRABLE. It's not due to neglect. Not at all! The horses are purposely trimmed to be "long footed." I subscribe to the American Farriers Journal and every few issues or so they have an article on trimming and shoeing the long footed horse, and how you do everything different than on a normal footed horse. Long footed horses "need" all that excess to throw the feet up higher. Encourage more action.

They are purposely cultivated into long, undershot heels, freaskishly long toes, and then a package of some sort nailed to it.

And yes, they want long footed horses to have a really long foot because then they can put bigger pads on it. You can't have a 3" hoof with 7" of padding sticking out the front. But you CAN have a 5 or 6 inch toe with 7" of padding sticking out the front. ;)

This is true! I always thought they would be better off with clear cut rules limiting the height of the pads period!

A little off subject but I have seen western horses trimmed with long feet as well, what is up with that?

Red Barn

Sep. 20, 2007, 03:02 PM

"its barbaric , its cruel, its abusive, its time for the goverment to act in each region or state"

Thank you, gls.

I'm astonished to see page after page of hair-splitting and obfuscation about exactly how much torture we find acceptable.

Good Lord! Stop and think.

goeslikestink

Sep. 20, 2007, 10:09 PM

good hearty people

when i was faced with soemthing i had a choice to act or not to act
on two occasions in my life ihave acted on whats right--

nownormlly ciricumstances people say yes or no or debate and some think the impossibale cant be done but it can-- its call educating people
for all our rescues etc we have as you do in each region to us its a county to you its a state
years ago for exsample dogs use to be court by a dog warden as so many only if you had a dog license would you dog be saved -- other wise death row
but nowadays we have rescue centers and more of them for all walks of animal life all over the world

my point you dont get anything for not doing anything

for myself - when debs had cdh -- as a baby which is congenial discharge of the hip

ie clicky hip mis placed hip if i hadnt had taken her to doc's and persisted there was something wrong with her as gut instinct told me-- then she would be a cripple today with a clubb foot as in one leg longer than the other--
so myself and my peadertritian set up a selp help group called h.i.p.s
help in plaster and in splints -- we set about informing new mums with this problem me and baby debs would go see parents that were upset by this operation or treatment given to a new born baby or child as later its tons worse-- debs was 1yr old, and iuse to tell the mums
whats to be expected and depending on how servere tell them the type of treatment for each sernerio john the doc, thought its better comming from a mum thats been through it
and also we were trying to raise fund for a mobile scanner to scan the new born babies
but them days its cost 20k as this was the new ear of scanning which was still sort of in it infancy with hosptials etc,, horse show dogs shows , you name it we did all kinds of things to riase money for a mobile scanner we got that then we srated raising money for a scanner for th ward in the hospital and still making the all kinds of people aware of what cdh was and is and easy it is to cure if only we could can babies at and every baby at 6weeks old so our campaign went into full swing

ladies and gentlemen it took ten years-- but the nhs as in the national health service
all hospitals to have scanners and now scan babies and have there own scanners and now the super duper unltra scanners as its improved so much so-- that every baby national get scanned and treated if needed at 6wks old and it doesnt stop there in uk

my doc is now head of worldlife disasters and warfare and when hes in uk
he still ring me up and buy me my dinner-- to right matey

so please dont tell me this is something you cant achieive
it is but whats needed is one -- a huge partition to join states ad regions
and present to goverment -- it will get there same to with live shipment

it will get there might take years -- but it will all you do is beleive and then join
up - and people that are against say big lick -- they are a minorirty

for instance if theres 5million people with horses in uk and you have one million
as potential customers you end up with 10 % --thats how much they are
there still 90% of that 5million left

-

Amwrider

Sep. 21, 2007, 12:16 AM

GSL, I don't like the "big lick" walking horses either and I don't like what they do to their feet. I abhore the soring and the pressure shoeing, but I also know that it is not the entire industry that does this.

What I don't like about this post is the propaganda that "pads are all bad" and "bands are bad" and "heavier shoes" are all bad. It is the propaganda that I have issues with.

I work and train trotting breeds that are also often padded, with a longer hoof and a heavier shoe, but it is not to the extreme that the walking horses take it. Where they will stack up 4 inches of heel, we stack up maybe an inch or one and a half inches.

I know with my breeds, people like Auventura Two have caused us so much trouble that a year or two ago, the American Farriers Association wrote a letter to the American Association of Equine Practitioners confirming that pads and bands are NOT detrimental to the horse's hooves as long as the correct angles are maintained. This means that if you grow a long toe, you have to prop up the heel with wedges in order to maintain the angle of the foot. A long toe, without the padded shoes would look very much like the photos Spookhorse posted and would put the horse at risk of laminitis and more. So, if longer toes are desired for a specific discipline, the heels must be brought up to maintain the proper angles.

This letter from the AFA to the AAEP was posted on the Morgan Horse Association website right before their National show because they were apparently expecting some welfare group to cause problems so they posted the information ahead of time.

As stated before, the pads and bands are not the problem with the unfortunate horse from the original post. The problem was the band not placed correctly (possibly to hide something on the hoof that shouldn't have been there). The band was not placed in any spot that would have aided in holding the back of the shoe and the band was placed over the nail clinches, thus a slight overstep to catch the back of the front shoe would result in the heel of the shoe pulling free and snapping the front of the hoof off because of where the band was placed.

Pads are not bad, bands are not bad. My wonderful horses tell me so and I have some loffly seniors that are retired from showing (they showed with pads and bands) that I use for lessons and they have great feet, great attitudes and are still going strong at ages 21 and 23. I am actually considering putting a pad back on the 23 year old as he is back at the knee and is more comfortable with the paded shoe than without it.

My 21 year old (yes, he is low backed but we loff him anyways):
http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/arbordale_photos/COPPER%201986%20Saddlebred%20Lesson%20Horse/

My 23 year old (recent cushingoid symptoms cropping up):
http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/arbordale_photos/MAGIC%201984%20Saddlebred%20Lesson%20Horse/

I know plenty of padded horses that have shown into their 20s and 30s. I think the last time I saw the horse Social Raft show, he was 32 with a long toe and pads/bands and he carried around a little 8 year old girl in walk/trot at the "A" rated Tampa Charity show at the Yacht Club about 15 years ago. Sound as a dollar and I am pretty sure he won the big class too.

Good care is good care. Bad care is bad care.

Auventera Two

Sep. 21, 2007, 10:03 AM

I know with my breeds, people like Auventura Two have caused us so much trouble that a year or two ago, the American Farriers Association wrote a letter to the American Association of Equine Practitioners confirming that pads and bands are NOT detrimental to the horse's hooves as long as the correct angles are maintained. This means that if you grow a long toe, you have to prop up the heel with wedges in order to maintain the angle of the foot. A long toe, without the padded shoes would look very much like the photos Spookhorse posted and would put the horse at risk of laminitis and more. So, if longer toes are desired for a specific discipline, the heels must be brought up to maintain the proper angles. .

And you actually believe this ?! :eek: Wow. Seriously girl, do yourself, and your horses a favor and take the responsibility upon yourself to learn about hoof and distal limb anatomy and then come back and tell me that long footed horses with pads and turnbuckles aren't in danger! You might be surprised to learn that dorsal wall angle is but one tiny portion of the overall balance equation.

I am 2 weeks away from receiving my applied equine podiatry certification degree. I am certainly no expert, but I assure you that I know about 5,000% more now than I did a year ago about distal limb and hoof anatomy. And it is this education that convicts me to say that a long footed horse fitted with pads and turnbuckles is in serious danger of many soft tissue injuries, and static structure diseases. Unfortuantely though, some people accept these injuries as normal. They'll give some bute, and get back to training the next day. They will retire their horse at 12 to 15 years old (and that's pushing it!), and think that's normal. It's not normal.

Did you even know that the average farrier school offers few days in hoof and limb anatomy? Everything else is forging shoes, dealing with clients, so forth. I can't recall the name of the text off hand, but one of the prominent farrier's books used in the schools states that the purpose of the white line is to give the farrier something to nail a shoe to. :eek: Vets also get only a few days on the equine hoof.

The farrier who did my mares for years went to school out west for 3 months, received his AFA certification, and stood in my barn aisle and told me that he had no clue that the horse had both an inner and an outer wall. Um....I love him to death, he's a really great guy, but this is equivalent to your family doctor telling you he had no idea that humans had tonsils. How would that make you feel?! Not real secure, would it?

I so far have in over 500 hours of class time, and book time, learning ONLY about the horse's hoof and distal limb. And I absolutely assure you that this eduction convicts me to say that you are doing much more harm to your horses than you realize.

That's excellent if you have two senior horses who were padded their whole life. But how many more people could tell stories of horses not so lucky? The fact is that many performance horses are not sound at 21 or 23 or older. Or they are servicably sound, but retired to pasture.

shakeytails

Sep. 21, 2007, 10:32 AM

This is what the hooves of a Big Lick horse look like without shoes and pads strapped to them. A little long wouldn't you say?

Left11-16-06.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/Left11-16-06.jpg)
Front11-16-06.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/Front11-16-06.jpg)
Right11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/Right11-16-06.jpg)
LeftFore11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/LeftFore11-16-06.jpg)
LeftForeHeel11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/LeftForeHeel11-16-06.jpg)
RightFore11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/RightFore11-16-06.jpg)
RightForeHeel11-16-07.jpg (http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n174/spookhorse01/Buddys%20Hooves/RightForeHeel11-16-06.jpg)

Those feet don't look like most BL TWH feet that I've seen. Looks like a really crappy trim. Almost all have a very normal hoof, not much longer than your average pleasure horse, with the package nailed on.

We go to several shows a year where there are performance Walkers, and I love to watch them. Flame away.

Bluey

Sep. 21, 2007, 11:53 AM

---"I so far have in over 500 hours of class time, and book time, learning ONLY about the horse's hoof and distal limb. And I absolutely assure you that this eduction convicts me to say that you are doing much more harm to your horses than you realize."---

If you are "convicted", when is the sentencing and what do you think it will be?:eek:

Remember, when we do whatever we do with our animals, we have to accept that some of it will not be in the best interest of them, be it padding, racing, jumping, rodeo events, BLM feedlot warehoused horses, slaughter, whatever.

Honestly, there is nothing we do, from breeding, raising, training and using our horses, even if just as a pretty pasture ornament, that can't be considered by someone to be "not in the best interest of the horse".

Oh, where to draw those elusive lines...:confused:

Auventera Two

Sep. 21, 2007, 12:18 PM

LOL! Bluey :lol:

You're right Bluey. Anything we do with a horse isn't necessarily in their very best interest. But I do think that common sense has a role in our decisions.

Do I necessarily love going to work every day and sitting behind a desk for 8 hours? No. But this job clearly is no comparison to working in a Chinese sweat shop for 16 hours a day.

I have no problem with hard working horses. Many horses really do enjoy their work. I have one such horse. Everytime I get the horse trailer out, she runs to the gate and paces because she wants to get out on that trail. If your horse loves to work, then let him! Get out there and have some grand fun with him. But just take inventory of everything you're doing to him to get that blue ribbon.

JKBD

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:05 PM

GLS, that is awesome what you did - good for you! :) I do environmental advocacy work and I know it is hard, hard, hard to keep yourself motivated when you are trying to make change happen. But if you are really passionate about your cause it is worth it in the end.

To stay somewhat on topic, let me just say I am not very informed about TWHs here in my OTTB eventer world. But I am learning a lot from this thread (lurker alert :D). Haven't made up my mind at all on this issue yet. I think those of us who don't have any chance to interact with TWHs (or any gaited horse really) will probably never understand it all.

I wish there were more numbers for horses in every industry on how long truly competitive horses, shod for and worked for their own specific purpose, stay sound and healthy. That would definitely help answer the debate between 'pads ruin every horse and older sound ones are an exception' vs 'most padded horses stay sound and just a few, perhaps with other bad training or abusive practices involved, go lame early'. In my head, majority rule - if most of them stay sound then proper care is the issue here, not the pads.

Gnalli

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:35 PM

Which is precisely why it still happens- not enough people will stand up for it or any other number of other abusive practices. It's easier to sit at home and make excuses than it is to try and stop it from happening.

Not all performance Walker trainers sore, but the majority in this division does because it is too hard to be competitive in it unless they do. Remember the Celebration last year? The majority of horses going into it were disqualified (and one trainer attempted bribery of the ones who could show to try and get them to boycott the class).

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. This was not a trainer, but an owner, and it was not a bribe, though he admitted that it was in poor taste to offer this, though he was trying to have them show a unified front and not have them lose out on the money that they would have taken home had they shown and won....

2nd of all-last year's horses were disqualified because of a subjective scar rule-not for soring and they were cleared in a court.

3rd-not even the majority sore, as we have a 99% compliance rate.

Amwrider

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:02 PM

Well, I can tell you from my 15 years experience with hunters and jumpers and with 14 years experience with saddle seat horses this is my observation:

I see fewer front leg injuries in the saddle seat horses
I see a greater percentage of horses competing at higher levels at older ages

What I do see more of with the saddle seat:

abcesses (but this could just be because I moved to Florida and it is sandier and wetter than Memphis and Dallas where I rode hunters).
quarter cracks (if the heels and foot are not allowed to spread)
thrush (pads trap moisture down here in the swamp - have to be very attentive with footcare)
hock arthritis
loose stifles (again, could be the sandier soil down here)
I have seen some bilateral laminitis/founders but you also need to keep in mind that Cushings, IR and other metabolic problems are pretty common with Morgans and Saddlebred breeds
I have seen an occasional road founder on some of the horses, the funny thing is that I see it more on the unpadded horses showing classic or country pleasure

I don't see much in the way of bowed tendons, suspensory injuries, splints, ringones, bone chips, navicular (but I do have one navicular one right now)

My padded horses spend about a 1/4 of the year barefoot or with keg shoes on so their foot can spread and to keep heels from becoming contracted, and to let them have a "vacation." (come to think about it, I see more injuries on their vacations then I do when they are working)

As for the horses being retired in their teens....don't assume that it is from lameness. Keep in mind that our horses can be "hot" and in their teens they may be not as athletic or competetive as their younger competition, and may be too hot for the pleasure classes or for the junior exhibitors. I have one horse that is like that, 23 years old and thinks he is 8. His least favorite gait is the walk. He is just now slowing down to a point where I can use him for w/t lessons but no cantering because then he pumps up even more! My heart gets warm just thinking about this old man who still has game despite his age and despite his Cushings.

Auventera Two

Sep. 21, 2007, 03:17 PM

Gnalli

Sep. 21, 2007, 04:34 PM

Gnalli - can you provide references for these facts? Honestly not trying to be snarky - would just like to know. :)

Yes, I can when I get the chance to look them up on here-I am in a rush right now, so I will cut this short, but I'll try to get them on here Monday.

goeslikestink

Sep. 21, 2007, 04:40 PM

with welsh d and hacneys they have a natural gait and they lift there legs up high
i have owned bonnie since 6 and i ahve known since she was a faol shes a welsh
d has a high floating action

fogi is a welsh pony x dales also has a high floating action

raspberry is a welsh a and she does as well

and lastly not a high action more of a distance action is ella the sandard bred
my others
chocky has a daisy cut pace
grace has a collect pace
jasper and oille have what i call a bouce pace of trot like very light lift and dainty
but bouncy

my point i didnt to increase any pressure on there feet to make do the trot to high

or stick pads on what ever to get to a performance level---

they are natural good --- welshes are know for it hackneys are know for it
i just dont get why have legs that look like when in flight as ifthe horse is riding a bike

just becuase it looks great=

goeslikestink

Sep. 21, 2007, 04:53 PM

and my other point if you want something stoped its a numbers game
the more numbers you have on your side the more you will win--

easygaiting

Sep. 24, 2007, 10:04 AM

GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT. This was not a trainer, but an owner, and it was not a bribe, though he admitted that it was in poor taste to offer this, though he was trying to have them show a unified front and not have them lose out on the money that they would have taken home had they shown and won....

He was part owner of the horse. The man had a financial interest in his horse showing. His horse, Private Charter, was turned down and got a HPA ticket and was unable to show. He then went to the 3 people who had horses who passed and were able to compete and he offered them money (10,000 a piece) not to show their horse. They all declined saying they were willing and ready to enter the ring. The Celebration officials were informed that no one was going to show in the CH class and so they ended the show. The 3 people were stolen their chance at the Championship because 1 person and an disorderly crowd ended the show.
It was more than in poor taste....and the Celebration thought so too because they suspended him for 2 years from participating at the show.

2nd of all-last year's horses were disqualified because of a subjective scar rule-not for soring and they were cleared in a court.

That is not true and all you have to do it go through the archives of the Walking Horse Report to find that of the 5 horses who failed inspection only 2 horses had those HPA violations overturned. I won't go into the problems of the scar rule but basically it is a rule in which you can have some evidence of abnormality of the condition of the leg and still get by inspection. It should be more clear cut in which if the leg shows any abnormality condusive of soring (anything other than injury) then the horse doesn't show.

3rd-not even the majority sore, as we have a 99% compliance rate.

I can tell you that the average of percentage of compliance has not been 99%. There may be a show or two that has been that high. Also using percentage of compliance to determine what percentage of horses at a horse show have not been sored to any degree is very misleading. It does'nt take into account sored horses brought to the show and not shown because the governement inspectors show up, it doesn't include the sored horses who have had their legs cooled with products like hurricane and it doesn't take into account the number of horses who have been stewarded (beaten, conditioned to accept the pain during palpation).

Dee

chai

Sep. 24, 2007, 10:14 AM

Amwrider

Sep. 24, 2007, 10:34 AM

Those shoes are an abomination. It is really disgusting to see the lengths humans will go to to distort an animal's natural shape and beauty to make it fit an artificial, man-made version of movement.

Chai, some people would equally think it is disgusting to see people compete their horses over jumping obstacles that are over and above anything a horse would jump in it's natural state. The unnatural forces applied to the forelegs of the horse upon landing a tall vertical with a rider on it's back. And let's not even get into having to put studs or other grabs to the shoe and what that can do to tendons.....

Nothing we do to horses is natural.

asb2517

Sep. 24, 2007, 10:35 AM

Nothing we do to horses is natural.

I think this is the most intelligent thing I have ever read on this BB. :yes:

Amwrider

Sep. 24, 2007, 11:21 AM

I am 2 weeks away from receiving my applied equine podiatry certification degree.

Doing a little research on the credentials of the "equine podiatrist" you are studying with:

His PHD is not from a "real" university. It is an online diploma mill.
http://middleham.org.uk/faq.html#3.

I think this guy is the Parelli of Podiatry. He created a "niche" and a marketing plan.

Parelli has his "levels" and his "Savvy" club and his "certified" trainers.

KC Lapierre PhD has his "podiatry" school and offers degrees in something he developed and marketed so people could call themselves "equine podiatriests."

twhrider13

Sep. 24, 2007, 02:36 PM

Doing a little research on the credentials of the "equine podiatrist" you are studying with:

His PHD is not from a "real" university. It is an online diploma mill.
http://middleham.org.uk/faq.html#3.

I think this guy is the Parelli of Podiatry. He created a "niche" and a marketing plan.

Parelli has his "levels" and his "Savvy" club and his "certified" trainers.

KC Lapierre PhD has his "podiatry" school and offers degrees in something he developed and marketed so people could call themselves "equine podiatriests."

Will you marry me? :D

I swore to myself that I wasn't going to respond to this thread again, but I'm feeling grumpy and delaying studying for the LSAT on Saturday :eek:, so here I go.

I can't speak for the other saddleseat disciplines because I'm not familiar with them, but to reiterate what amwrider said, you don't see the multitudes of injuries in performance Walking Horses that you see in other high-performance disciplines like h/j, dressage, reining, cutting, etc. You don't often see performance Walking Horses who have to have their hocks/stifles/whatever injected every three months to stay sound. You don't see things like navicular and tons of other things I've heard of on COTH, but can't remember the names of because I'm not familiar with them.

I can also assure you, having had experience with both pleasure and performance Walking Horses, that pleasure shoes generally weigh more than a full package weighs. Pleasure shoes enhance movement by their sheer mass. Performance shoes enhance movement somewhat by their height, but mostly by their angles. I can discuss this more if someone would honestly like to know, but I'm not going to argue with fanatics for no reason. :rolleyes:

Lastly, I would like to say that while there are farriers in the TWH industry (and in any horse industry) who have no idea what they're doing and have absolutely no business within 5 miles of a horse's hoof, I'll lay my farrier's Journeyman II certification against anybody else's Intarwebz Horseshoein' Edumacation any day of the week.

Amwrider

Sep. 24, 2007, 03:26 PM

Will you marry me? :D

Only if you are a male aged 35 - 50, have a big truck, health insurance and all your teeth :D. Oh, and you must like fat chicks....

Sorry, that is the joke at my barn about finding me a husband:cool:

twhrider13

Sep. 24, 2007, 03:35 PM

Only if you are a male aged 35 - 50, have a big truck, health insurance and all your teeth :D. Oh, and you must like fat chicks....

Sorry, that is the joke at my barn about finding me a husband:cool:

Damn. :lol:

Auventera Two

Sep. 24, 2007, 04:42 PM

Doing a little research on the credentials of the "equine podiatrist" you are studying with:

His PHD is not from a "real" university. It is an online diploma mill.
http://middleham.org.uk/faq.html#3.

I think this guy is the Parelli of Podiatry. He created a "niche" and a marketing plan.

Parelli has his "levels" and his "Savvy" club and his "certified" trainers.

KC Lapierre PhD has his "podiatry" school and offers degrees in something he developed and marketed so people could call themselves "equine podiatriests."

I certainly have no need to defend anything about the school of which I am receiving my certification. Doesn't bother me a bit what you think or say. But the FACT is that I guarantee I know more about limb anatomy and function that you can sniffle at.

And try not to forget that much of what is taught by KC is not anything new at all, and he'll gladly say that. Anatomy is anatomy is anatomy. KC couldn't invent things in a horse's foot and legs that weren't there a hundred or even a thousand years ago. A good deal of our studies are in foot function, biomechanics, neurological function, and simple science. They are based on studies performed by Bowker and Pollitt, and farriers from many years ago.

In fact in my class a week ago, KC said "Look people, this stuff is not new!"

The entire point of my post was that anyone who knows anything about distal limb anatomy and function at all, will immediately know that these grotesque "devices" are causing harm, whether you choose to see that harm or not.

Again - anatomy is anatomy and foot function is foot function. Personal attacks against a person's degree is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. So I will ask you - how many of Bowker's and Pollitt's studies have you researched? Be honest. The fact is - much of what I believe about the harm being done isn't from KC at all, but from other researchers. We have an entire sheet full of recommended reading books and publications.

P.S. - And funny that the Ameican Association of Veterinary States Boards has approved KC's curriculum for continuining education credits for veterinarians and vet techs. And it's been approved by Post University in Connecticut as credits towards their B.S. of Equine Management Degree. You know - since it's just some junk crap he thunk up all by his wittle self in the basement one night.

http://www.post.edu/equine_management_curriculum.shtml
http://www.aavsb.org/RACE/CourseSearch.aspx

Amwrider

Sep. 24, 2007, 05:24 PM

The entire point of my post was that anyone who knows anything about distal limb anatomy and function at all, will immediately know that these grotesque "devices" are causing harm, whether you choose to see that harm or not.

I have no doubt that you know more about distal leg and hoof anatomy than I do. I don't argue that point.

I argue that you have never disected the limb of a padded walker and cannot speak from any experience at all that the pads and shoeing cause problems. You are only parroting back what you were taught by someone that is ANTI-SHOEING to begin with. How many shoes have you been taught to forge at this school? How many nails have you been taught to drive at this school? Why would you be taught that these shoes might NOT cause harm.

You have no scientific evidence to support your claims. So I have to argue your logic on this.

Didn't you learn that back when you posted under Two Simple and attacked the TWH industry that all your ranting and raving without scientific evidence or practical working knowledge just makes you look silly? Makes you look like a teen aged or twenty-something know-it-all that is going to tell people what they should and shouldn't do.

I am 40 years old and have been involved with horses (shod and unshod, padded and unpadded) for 30 years. I see fewer problems in the shod, padded horses than I do in the barefoot horses. I also see more horses living longer, sounder lives with the shod padded horses than I do with the barefoot horses.

No, Pierre is probably not teaching anything new, just like Parelli isn't. He just puts a new name to it so he can reap in all the marketing rights.

As for me, maybe I will contact the online university he got his PhD from and see if I can buy myself a degree too!

BS - Bull Stool
MS - More Stool
PhD - Piled Higher and Deeper

twhrider13

Sep. 24, 2007, 05:32 PM

The entire point of my post was that anyone who knows anything about distal limb anatomy and function at all, will immediately know that these grotesque "devices" are causing harm, whether you choose to see that harm or not.

It's comments like this that make me sad that my farrier doesn't own a computer. I can assure you that he knows plenty about distal limb anatomy and function (probably more than most of the people on this board, in fact, and WAY more than I'll ever know about it), and he will immediately tell you that if you know what you are doing when you put pads and bands on a horse, you aren't causing any harm.

Damn, damn, and double damn. I've gotta get the man on the Internet.

(I'm sure no one can tell that I idolize him, right? He ain't bad lookin', either.) ;)

Amwrider

Sep. 24, 2007, 05:51 PM

It's comments like this that make me sad that my farrier doesn't own a computer. I can assure you that he knows plenty about distal limb anatomy and function (probably more than most of the people on this board, in fact, and WAY more than I'll ever know about it), and he will immediately tell you that if you know what you are doing when you put pads and bands on a horse, you aren't causing any harm.

Damn, damn, and double damn. I've gotta get the man on the Internet.

(I'm sure no one can tell that I idolize him, right? He ain't bad lookin', either.) ;)

Does he have all his teeth and like fat chicks?

Amwrider

Sep. 24, 2007, 06:08 PM

Well, I keep checking the link that trainerlady posted first (very curious that she has not been back here, some hit and run tactic she has) because she likes to keep changing and adding to the information on her website link she posted.

She has added a link to a CNN report on abuses in the TWH industry, it is a 21 year old story.

This information also jumped out at me when I read it (my bold to call attention):

THE HORSE WAS PERFORMING IT'S HIGH STEPPING GAIT
WHEN IT TOOK A MISS-STEP AND SHEARED THIS PACKAGE OFF IT'S FOOT, TEARING UP IT'S FOOT
CAUSING BLEEDING, SHOCK AND INFECTION AND HAD TO BE
SUBSEQUENTLY EUTHANIZED.

So apparently this horse did not die from pulling the shoe. He was not put down at the show grounds from blood loss. He went home and was doctored and got an infection and was put down at a later date.

Interesting how the story keeps changing.

Also interesting that she still has not commented on this thread that she started, she just wants everyone to go over to HER forum to discuss it.

twhrider13

Sep. 24, 2007, 06:43 PM

Does he have all his teeth and like fat chicks?

Teeth? Check. Like fat chicks? I'm thinkin' yeah. Want me to send him your way? He's a bit old for me, anyway. :D

And trainerlady's having a bit of an identity crisis. "She's" actually a he.

Auventera Two

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:13 AM

I have no doubt that you know more about distal leg and hoof anatomy than I do. I don't argue that point.

I argue that you have never disected the limb of a padded walker and cannot speak from any experience at all that the pads and shoeing cause problems. You are only parroting back what you were taught by someone that is ANTI-SHOEING to begin with. How many shoes have you been taught to forge at this school? How many nails have you been taught to drive at this school? Why would you be taught that these shoes might NOT cause harm.

I would challenge you to find a single farrier who blieves that LTLH is healthy, desirable, and safe for a horse. ANY horse. Oh yes, I'm sure you could find a gaited farrier who would agree to these claims, but of course he would, because that's his bread and butter. How many posts have you seen about lame horses and the main cause is long toe and low heel? Those posts are all over this forum, and horseshoes.com.

And no, I am not anti-shoeing, and neither is my instructor. In fact there are times when shoes absolutely are necessary. I am against doing harm to the horse. And I think all of us know from experience and history that LTLH is not desirable.

You have no scientific evidence to support your claims. So I have to argue your logic on this.

Didn't you learn that back when you posted under Two Simple and attacked the TWH industry that all your ranting and raving without scientific evidence or practical working knowledge just makes you look silly? Makes you look like a teen aged or twenty-something know-it-all that is going to tell people what they should and shouldn't do.

To support what? That long toes and under slung heels are detrimental to the horse? Um, do some research my friend. I guarantee you can find many published papers from veterinarians and farriers alike that this condition is detrimental to the equine.

Now take that LTLH horse and add a few pounds of weight to each foot and see what you have. It ain't rocket science is it? ;)

I am 40 years old and have been involved with horses (shod and unshod, padded and unpadded) for 30 years. I see fewer problems in the shod, padded horses than I do in the barefoot horses. I also see more horses living longer, sounder lives with the shod padded horses than I do with the barefoot horses.

Oh well, that's very interesting. I'm glad that your padded horses have no issues, I really am. But your one anectdotal story is not enough for me. Each disection I've seen has had a long toe and a low, underrun heel. Each disection has shown negative changes to digital cushion, ungular cartilage, and bone. In each instance, there were lesions present on the articulating surface of the navicular bone.

And lets not forget that a horse can have major foot imbalance and disfunction, even if it's barefoot. You sure won't see me argue to the contrary! An improperly trimmed and maintained bare hoof is almost as bad as a shod and improperly trimmed and maintained hoof.

In my personal situation, I have two good friends with shoeless horses who have been shoeless their entire lives. One of my friends has 2 mares - sisters - that are 24 years old and they are still in full time work and have never had a single soundness issue, ever. My other friend's gelding is 21, in full work and jumping, and has no soundness issues. My own horses are bare and in full work and sound. Each person's situation is different.

But again - back to the point - I don't think you'll find a tremendous amount of support that long toes and underslung heels nailed to several pounds of pads is healthy, desirable, and a stellar example of how hooves should be prepared.

Auventera Two

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:15 AM

THE HORSE WAS PERFORMING IT'S HIGH STEPPING GAIT
WHEN IT TOOK A MISS-STEP AND SHEARED THIS PACKAGE OFF IT'S FOOT, TEARING UP IT'S FOOT
CAUSING BLEEDING, SHOCK AND INFECTION AND HAD TO BE
SUBSEQUENTLY EUTHANIZED.

So apparently this horse did not die from pulling the shoe. He was not put down at the show grounds from blood loss. He went home and was doctored and got an infection and was put down at a later date.

You're really grasping at straws aren't you?! You're saying that the horse tearing the package off his foot had absolutely nothing to do with his death? Do you honestly think he would have had the infection and shock had this not happened? Would he have been euthed if this didn't happen? You're honest to god saying that since he didn't bleed to death on the spot, that this injury didn't cause his death? Really? You're really saying that? :lol:

asb2517

Sep. 25, 2007, 09:29 AM

You're really grasping at straws aren't you?! You're saying that the horse tearing the package off his foot had absolutely nothing to do with his death? Do you honestly think he would have had the infection and shock had this not happened? Would he have been euthed if this didn't happen? You're honest to god saying that since he didn't bleed to death on the spot, that this injury didn't cause his death? Really? You're really saying that? :lol:

Maybe the people who were taking care of the horse didn't care for the foot properly. If it was poor after care, then no - it wasn't because he lost a shoe - it was because they didn't take care of it properly. Who knows?

I, too, am suspicious since trainerlady hasn't been back to this thread. She/he just posts, starts a "discussion" (and I use that term loosely) and then runs. Hmmm...

Auventera Two

Sep. 25, 2007, 10:24 AM

Maybe the people who were taking care of the horse didn't care for the foot properly. If it was poor after care, then no - it wasn't because he lost a shoe - it was because they didn't take care of it properly. Who knows?

I, too, am suspicious since trainerlady hasn't been back to this thread. She/he just posts, starts a "discussion" (and I use that term loosely) and then runs. Hmmm...

The horse did not just "lose a shoe." Losing a shoe usually means it can be nailed back on. The horse lost his HOOF! Big difference.

It may have been the aftercare, you're right. Who knows. But the aftercare wouldn't have been necessary if it didn't happen in the first place. Yes, bad stuff happens to competition horses all the time. At the EP workshops, there are a few legs in every bunch of obviously young, TB racehorses. Why would they be in the cadaver heap unless something bad happened to them?

But I think these pictures just shows what can happen when people push horses to their limits and go to such extremes. And for the record, yeah, I'm not terribly in favor of some of the disciplines we have, or some of the extremes we push horses to. I don't ever think it's ok to exploit horses, no matter what the discipline.

Amwrider

Sep. 25, 2007, 11:37 AM

I have heard of horses ripping their entire hoof capsule off in a pasture gate or in a stall door - and recovering fully.

Base on the information I bolded, I would be inclined to think it was the aftercare. They euthanized the horse due to infection.

I will not argue with you that long toe, low heel (LTLH) is detrimental to the horse.

* * * I pointed out that very fact with the photos that spookhorse posted. * * *

As I have stated, and you can go back and read....we want a long toe for performance, however heels don't grow at the same rate. That is why the horses are padded and that is why the heels are wedged TO MAINTAIN THE CORRECT ANGLE TO PREVENT LAMENESS AND DAMAGE FROM LTLH.

Amwrider

Sep. 25, 2007, 12:17 PM

Examples of my padded Morgan

He is shod for English Pleasure and will be at 6 weeks on Thursday so he is due. I jusp pulled him out of his stall about 30 minutes ago to take these, sorry I didn't clean him up.

I also leave the "feathers" on the horse's legs unless they are going to a show as with the heat and humidity in FL, the horses will get "rivers" of sweat running down their legs and the feathers allow the sweat to drip away from the heel cleft.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/amwrider/MISC/frontshoes25sept07dueforreset1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/amwrider/MISC/leftfront25sept07due1.jpg

Here you can see that his heels are a bit contracted. Ths is why my horses spend a lot of time in kegs or barefoot during the year. Dallas will have his shoes pulled in early November and will get them back on towards the end of February, will wear the show shoes until the end of April and then have them pulled again until July. We did not pull them this summer as there was a show we planned to attend but my neice ended up missing it due to a badly sprained knee (hers, not the horse's)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/amwrider/MISC/frontheels25sept07due1.jpg

This is the same horse in action, photos taken at the beginning of August:
http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff258/Arbordale_summer07/Camp%20week%201/2007campwk1030.jpg

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff258/Arbordale_summer07/Camp%20week%201/2007campwk1035.jpg

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/arbordale_photos/DALLAS%201999%20Morgan%20English%20Pleasure/1000552_090.jpg

Show Photo
http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/arbordale_photos/DALLAS%201999%20Morgan%20English%20Pleasure/DallasCitrusCup07.jpg

Video
http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/cc12/arbordale_photos/DALLAS%201999%20Morgan%20English%20Pleasure/?action=view&current=082607parktrota.flv

Amwrider

Sep. 25, 2007, 12:35 PM

Each disection I've seen has had a long toe and a low, underrun heel. Each disection has shown negative changes to digital cushion, ungular cartilage, and bone. In each instance, there were lesions present on the articulating surface of the navicular bone.

And you know these were padded horses how? I see far more barefoot horses that are LTLH with bad "cowboy" trims. My 23 year old gelding was one of them. After I changed barns and they stayed behind and kept him as a trail horse, their "cowboy" farrier worked on him. When I got him back he was in a keg shoe that was too small, had LTLH crushed heel buttresses and pretty bad white line problems. He was given to me because he was too lame.

He is fine now in a keg shoe that fits him and with raising his heel up.

Personally, the gaited horse farriers are usually a lot more knowledgeable about angles and weight distribution on the horse's hooves as this effects gait. I don't see too many LTLH, certainly not as many as I see in other disciplines.

spookhorse

Sep. 25, 2007, 01:20 PM

Those feet don't look like most BL TWH feet that I've seen. Looks like a really crappy trim. Almost all have a very normal hoof, not much longer than your average pleasure horse, with the package nailed on.

We go to several shows a year where there are performance Walkers, and I love to watch them. Flame away.

If you would take a closer look under all the show black (and open your eyes and mind) you would notice that ALL Big Lick walking horses are trimmed long toe low heel to accomodate the stacked pads.

spookhorse

Sep. 25, 2007, 01:22 PM

Amwrider

Sep. 25, 2007, 01:40 PM

And in all this "my horses are padded and doing fine blah blah blah" coming from you, you are missing one great big point: your horses ARE NOT Big Lick TWHs so the "pads being bad" does not apply to your discipline! I don't think that any of us in the discussion is saying that the way your ASBs and Morgans are carrying one or two small pads is bad... we are saying that the TWH Big Lick/Performance STACKED PADS are bad.

From the original post
here's another danger of being a padded horse

twhrider13

Sep. 25, 2007, 01:43 PM

From the original post
[quote]here's another danger of being a padded horse[\quote]

I think you're just wastin' your breath, honey. :no:

By the way, I think your horse is lovely. He is shod similar to the way my mare was shod when she was showing in Park Performance.

Paragon

Sep. 25, 2007, 01:43 PM

spookhorse

Sep. 25, 2007, 02:58 PM

From the original post
[quote]here's another danger of being a padded horse
This whole thread has been about the Big Lick style of padding a TWH so any mention of padding in it (at least by me) has been regarding that.

And you know it.

MSP

Sep. 25, 2007, 03:11 PM

So how much pad is OK with you? Based on what information does one draw a line and say this is too much? :rolleyes:

If you ban TWH performance horses from padding then shouldn't all pads be banned?

Auventera Two

Sep. 25, 2007, 04:11 PM

As I have stated, and you can go back and read....we want a long toe for performance, however heels don't grow at the same rate. That is why the horses are padded and that is why the heels are wedged TO MAINTAIN THE CORRECT ANGLE TO PREVENT LAMENESS AND DAMAGE FROM LTLH.

There is MUCH more to soundness than a "correct angle." Correct angle is about 1/10th of the equation. And yes, heels DO grow at the same rate. But they end up crushed and run under the foot, or they are worn down. The growth at the toe has farther to travel than the growth at the heel, which only has about 1/3 the distance to travel. I see what you're getting at, but your statement is not completely true.

In any case - so what you're saying is that long toes are fine as long as there is a long heel to accompany it? Perhaps to a degree this may be true, but not to the degree that's discussed here.

And then there's the issue of toe to heel plane. A long toe and a high toe are NOT the same thing. Wedging the heel can bring the toe and the heel to the same plane, if the toe plane is high to begin with. But if the toe plane is too low and the heels are wedged, then you have horses standing up on the distal border of P3, which is evident in many of those photos on that Avalon photography site.

Auventera Two

Sep. 25, 2007, 04:16 PM

And you know these were padded horses how? I see far more barefoot horses that are LTLH with bad "cowboy" trims. My 23 year old gelding was one of them. After I changed barns and they stayed behind and kept him as a trail horse, their "cowboy" farrier worked on him. When I got him back he was in a keg shoe that was too small, had LTLH crushed heel buttresses and pretty bad white line problems. He was given to me because he was too lame.

I never said they were padded horses. Forget about the pads. The pads aren't the topic. The topic is LTLH and its affects. You can slap any number of pads on that bad trim that you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a bad trim.

Finally you and I agree. I hate "cowboy" trims too! Why in the hell do you think I expended the effort to net myself a scholarship to learn how to CORRECTLY trim feet and rehabilitate horses screwed up by the "cowboy" trims?

Personally, the gaited horse farriers are usually a lot more knowledgeable about angles and weight distribution on the horse's hooves as this effects gait. I don't see too many LTLH, certainly not as many as I see in other disciplines.

I can see it myself just in looking at the photos from the Celebration! It jumps right off the page at me! Forget the 4 inches of pads nailed to the feet. Look at the feet themselves and you can see some seriously, horrendous trim jobs. Many of the horses are tipped right up on their toes with their wedged pads and long toes. Remember - toe length and toe height are NOT the same thing.

Auventera Two

Sep. 25, 2007, 04:20 PM

Well, you know, Barbaro's death had nothing to do with breaking down in a race. Right? Totally incidental.

*nods unconvincingly*

Not sure that I follow you. Yes, Barbaro died because he shattered his leg in a race. I won't even go into what I think of what was done to him after the breakdown. He ultimately died as a result of the breakdown.

Just as this horse ultimately died due to ripping his hoof capsule off.

Auventera Two

Sep. 25, 2007, 04:22 PM

So how much pad is OK with you? Based on what information does one draw a line and say this is too much? :rolleyes:

If you ban TWH performance horses from padding then shouldn't all pads be banned?

Well, lets follow that same logic then....

Eventing is legal, so suide death runs over cliffs and into a river should be legal too.

Calf roping is legal, so horse tripping should be legal too.

Where do you draw the line on ANYTHING? Common sense should prevail, or so I would think.

thetrainerlady

Sep. 26, 2007, 10:26 AM

Is it possible that this happened while the horse was still alive??! Where did these pictures come from ?? I'd sure like to know the story behind this, other than "this is what can happen to BL horses"

TrainerLady--can you comment on these questions since you were the OP? Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I'VE BEEN TOLD FURTHER EXPLANATIONS OF THESE PICTURES WERE NEEDED. FROM WHAT I HAVE BEEN TOLD, THE OWNER OF THIS HORSE KEPT THIS "PACKAGE" TAKEN FROM THEIR HORSE, AS A REMINDER OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED TO THEIR HORSE. NO ONE TOLD THEM THIS COULD HAPPEN AND THEY NEVER EXPECTED THIS TRAGEDY. THE HORSE WAS PERFORMING IT'S HIGH STEPPING GAIT WHEN IT TOOK A MISS-STEP AND SHEARED THIS PACKAGE OFF IT'S FOOT, TEARING UP IT'S FOOT CAUSING BLEEDING, SHOCK AND INFECTION AND HAD TO BE SUBSEQUENTLY EUTHANIZED. THEY QUIT THE BIG LICK SCENE. (CHECK OUT HERE FOR FURTHER VIDEO EXPLANATION BY JACOB ISRAEL, FARRIER, IN THIS 1985 CNN REPORT http://www.walkinonranch.com/CNN.html

WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING AT IS THE 4 INCH BUILT UP PAD ALONG WITH THE METAL BANDS THAT KEEP IT ATTACHED TO THE FOOT ALONG WITH THE SHOE NAILS INTO THE HORSE'S FOOT, YOU'LL NOTICE THE LONG TOES MAKING IT MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO INCREASED RISKS OF MISHAPS

As a side note, before we get this thread shut down again because of the voltility of people's response...I started up a [B]TWH Political Forum[B] which allows for open discussion of any issues regarding any breed of horse that has issues...the forum is open now and are discussing this toopic as we are talkin right now....you may want to get a puesdoname if you don't want your identity known....only 2 rules...NO NAME CALLING, NO VULGARITY ...that's it...so let's take it over there if you want to straighten things out....

here's the link http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/TWHPoliticalForum/

The Preacher
The Church Of What's Happenin Now!

MSP

Sep. 26, 2007, 10:56 AM

Well, lets follow that same logic then....

Eventing is legal, so suide death runs over cliffs and into a river should be legal too.

Calf roping is legal, so horse tripping should be legal too.

Where do you draw the line on ANYTHING? Common sense should prevail, or so I would think.

You call that following logic?

Yes common sense should prevail as well as some good science, why don't you try it. Running over a cliff is a pretty obvious abuse. The difference between a 1 inch pad, 2 inch pad, 3 inch pad and 4 inch pad is not as obvious. All I have ever questioned is if pads are bad for a horse then prove it and prove what height to which the line needs to be drawn. With out this information all you can do is call for a complete ban of all pads which doesn't fly with me or anyone else that respects another horseman's right to pursue his own discipline.

How would you like it if some one was calling for the banning of endurance riding because they though it was bad for horses but they had no proof or logic they just thought the horses looked tired and were getting worked too hard. They based their opinion on the fact that they don't like the event, wouldn't like being pushed that hard if they were a horse!

BTW, running over a cliff is not a part of eventing and tripping is not a part of calf roping!

Here is how logic works: you have several statements known as premises they lead to a conclusion. The argument is considered a fallacy if any of the premises are not true!