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BuddyRoo

Sep. 15, 2007, 11:54 AM

Boy, that's really tough.

The real problem in my mind is: Are these meds prescribed to the child or not? Because Xanax (alprazolam) is a benzodiazepine and is a controlled substance. AND, from the XANAX website: http://www.xanax.com/content.asp?ID=4&SID=3

Is XANAX safe for younger people?
Safety and effectiveness of XANAX in individuals below 18 years of age have not been established.

Giving non-prescribed prescription drugs to a minor is not only illegal, but considered abuse.

While I realize that trainers are not "mandatory reporters", in my mind, any adult aware of such a situation has a moral obligation to take action.

WITH ALL THAT SAID:

XANAX is sometimes prescribed to teens. Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD) often onsets after puberty and can be a very difficult disorder to control without medication. Persons prone to anxiety/panic attacks are often quite embarrassed as it's not generally well understood or accepted. So I can understand why a parent might not want to discuss this--feeling of shame, etc.

But I think that if it were me, depending on your gut instinct on this one, I would just pull the mother aside and ask some questions. Just let her know that if her child has an anxiety issue, you'd like to know how to help. Play dumb. Ask if there are any medications that she's on and if there are things you need to watch for during lessons, shows, etc as you've heard that some of these meds can cause poor motor function (hello!! XANAX!!!), seizures, low blood pressure, etc--and you want to make sure she's safe.

I can't imagine dosing up on Xanax before a class. It's a rapid onset drug that really slows down your thinking and reaction time. They do not recommend that you drive after taking it. (it's half life is very short too--out of the system in typically 4 hours for the reg. xanax) Anyway, I can't imagine popping one and then doing a course.

As far as what adults do? Well, you can agree or disagree...but if they're not breaking the law, I don't think there's much you can do. But kids are a different story. If the mom was giving the kid a swig of whiskey before a class, would you feel the same concern? I would. But that's just me.

That's a tough spot. I probably haven't helped much...it's just that if there's one thing that's near and dear to my heart it's that adults are responsible for the children around them as children cannot always help themselves.

Oh...you know, one other option....you could always call her school. They would have records of whether or not this is a scripted med. They couldn't tell you one way or another...but they could look into it if you're really concerned.

FancyFree

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:06 PM

How old is the daughter? How does she act after she's been given it? Does it help her or is it hindering her performance? I have long suffered from anxiety. I've been prescribed anti-anxiety medication, off and on, since I was in my twenties. I could have used it in my teen years for certain anxiety producing situations. But if this is a child, under sixteen, and not a teenager, I definitely would be concerned.

Pommederue

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:07 PM

Thank you for your replies.

Sansena

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:11 PM

FancyFree

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:18 PM

So if I'm prescibed an anti-anxiety medication and show, I'm "riding impaired"? You must not know much about anti-anxiety medication. You can live your life and do everyday things while taking them.

I'm still curious as to how old the daughter is. But if you want a physician's note and she refuses to give it to you, by all means, drop her. If you are that concerned about the child or teen, you can also contact her school as another poster suggested. That would trigger a Child Protective Services investigation.

CarouselPony

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:19 PM

Beasmom

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:20 PM

If the RX is not for the child (for instance, the Mom is giving HER Xanax to the kid), then I agree with the above poster who said this is abusive. If it's the child's RX, given under a doctor's supervision, that's all right. Not much you can to about that.

I would be concerned since it appears this drug DOES affect thinking and reaction times. It would be equivalent to driving while impaired. The kid is jumping? Your reaction times had better be spot-on! Maybe not a problem if she's doing WP.

If a student of mine showed up for a lesson obviously drunk, I'd postpone the lesson until another day. Not that this has happened, but if I had a student who consistently showed up "impaired", I'd sit down and talk to them about it. I am unwilling to teach a student who engages in dangerous behaviors. It doesn't help her, and it doesn's help me, either. Riding is not something to be done impaired.

Perhaps this woman and her child should become someone else's liability, if she's not willing to discuss this issue.

One other thing: a good friend of mine who's done some serious WS time with some BNT's, suggested taking a Midol the morning of a show as a mild muscle relaxant. It works, doesn't impair my reaction time, and is over-the-counter!

Maybe even a "placebo" would help this kid. Like Dumbo's "Magic Feather"!

BuddyRoo

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:24 PM

I have requested from mom a "doctor's note" which she never produced so one can only assume she is medicating her herself but I don't like to make assumptions.

Yes, while assuming is bad...it sure doesn't bode well, does it? Throws up some red flags for me.

I did tell mom that if daughter ever shows at an FEI sanctioned event, that daughter could be drug tested as well as the horse.

What was her reaction?

Not only am I concerned morally, I am concerned that this young girl will never learn coping skills and she may be impaired while riding. You're right to be concerned IMHO. I don't see how she could NOT be impaired while riding.

Again, perhaps none of my business. IMHO, children ARE our business. I think it would be better to be wrong and KNOW it than to do nothing. As long as you're doing what you think is right at the time with the information you have, I don't see how anyone could fault you. Worst case, you lose a client. Best case, you help a little kid. If more people would stop averting their eyes and start asking questions, less kids would be in bad situations. AGAIN, not saying this woman has done anything wrong--but if she's not, she should be impressed that you have that much concern for her child--not offended that you'd ask.

Sansena

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:26 PM

So if I'm prescibed an anti-anxiety medication and show, I'm "riding impaired"? You must not know much about anti-anxiety medication. You can live your life and do everyday things while taking them..

I'm very familiar with anti anxiety meds and Xanax specifically as I take them myself for a very specific condition. I know what I feel like and would NEVER imagine being around horses after having taken one, much less riding. It's like hitting a wall 15 minutes afterward.. everything goes into slow-mo and (as DH would say) My "give-a-sh!tter" doesn't work anymore.

So, in view of that, AND mom not providing the dr.'s note, I stand by my original sentiment.

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:31 PM

This is a bad idea. Everyone responds differently, and THE ADOLESCENT BRAIN RESPONDS VERY DIFFERENTLY THAN THE ADULT.

She is setting her daughter up for possibly a whole slew of issues down the road, to say nothing of problems bnow.

FancyFree

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:32 PM

^^It sounds like your dosage is way too high or Xanax is not the right med for you. I take 5 milligrams of Valium on occassion. It does nothing more than take the edge off. It doesn't make me slowed or drugged out in any way. And I've done very well showing. :)

That said, in the OP's situation, if the mother won't produce a physician's note, she should drop the client. It's illegal for her to medicate her child without a physician's prescription, more importantly potentially dangerous.

BuddyRoo

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:32 PM

[QUOTE=FancyFree;2684414]So if I'm prescibed an anti-anxiety medication and show, I'm "riding impaired"? You must not know much about anti-anxiety medication. You can live your life and do everyday things while taking them.
QUOTE]

Firstly, the makers of the drug "Xanax" disagree with you. It clearly states that until you know how this medication will affect you, that you should NOT drive, etc.

If you've been on a consistent dose of a medication, it's likely that your body has adapted. But short acting benzos most certainly do affect reaction times. Even if you don't "feel" it. Xanax is typically a PRN drug as well due to it's potential for dependency. Most people are on something "regularly" and the Xanax is only for flare ups.

Another issue with benzos is tremor. Which can also impede motor function.

Again, if the meds are prescribed for the kid, fine--although I'd still be a little concerned about the whole reaction time thing. The issue is more one of legality and child endangerment.

FancyFree

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:35 PM

Firstly, the makers of the drug "Xanax" disagree with you. It clearly states that until you know how this medication will affect you, that you should NOT drive, etc.

I don't take Xanax now. But thanks for the info! :D

like I said, if you think it's abuse, report the mom. Simple as that.

Ghazzu

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:35 PM

One other thing: a good friend of mine who's done some serious WS time with some BNT's, suggested taking a Midol the morning of a show as a mild muscle relaxant. It works, doesn't impair my reaction time, and is over-the-counter!

Maybe even a "placebo" would help this kid. Like Dumbo's "Magic Feather"!

I suspect the placebo effect to be operating in your case, as well, as Midol does not contain any muscle relaxants :D

coriander

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:35 PM

I would have some serious liability concerns. You don't mention your student's age, but Xanax, as a benzo, is not one of those meds that is generally recognized as safe for children, and my guess is that mom hasn't given you a doctor's note because she's giving the kid pills from her (mom's) script.

Sadly, you can't do anything about the child's mother drugging her coping skills away, but you should really consider your risks here. You might want to talk to a lawyer in your state on the topic of increased liability when you know mom is giving your student a med that can impair gross motor coordination.

For me, the life's too short rule would come into play. First, I do not approve of randomly medicating anxious children (it's a competition and nerves are part of it) - and while it might be none of my business were I the child's trainer, I still wouldn't participate in it. Second, there's the liability: The child is performing a complex task involving a horse, after mom gives her a CNS depressant. That's a wreck in the making. When you put that together, I'd fire the client. Period, the end.

Good luck to you.

King's Ransom

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:38 PM

I don't know how old the child is, but this is just wrong on soooo many levels. What's the point of putting your child in a sport if she is not going to learn any of the really valuable lessons of that sport -- such as learning how to face your fears, ride through them and come out on the other side without chemical assistance???? This mom is training her daughter to become a drug addict or alcoholic. And it sickens me to see so many people say they don't see anything wrong with it!!!! WHEN did we start drugging our children???? Parents have lost their minds, or maybe they never even had any to begin with!!!

If I were the trainer, I would have just that talk with the mother. I would say that one of the best things your daughter can learn from horses is not how to ride, but how to live. They can teach her about courage and patience and learning to be calm under pressure. You are preventing that from happening. I am completely opposed to drugging a child, and under no circumstances will I allow it without a doctor's note and I want to see the bottle with the child's name on it. IF she has anxiety issues, then as her trainer, I need to know this. I also need to know if she is taking any impairing drug ANY time she rides or works around horses -- not just at shows.

And if this mother gets in a huff, then I would tell her that 1. you cannot work with her child and 2. you will be reporting the situation to the proper authorities. Kids are our responsiblity -- all of us. They are our future. And we sure as heck do not need one MORE drug addict ... which is precisely what this mother is grooming her daughter to become.

Stage fright is natural. The best thing you can do with it is learn to channel it into positive energy. We all have emotions, that's a good thing. Teaching children to deaden them is wacked-out.

Huntertwo

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:38 PM

Beasmom

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:39 PM

I suspect the placebo effect to be operating in your case, as well, as Midol does not contain any muscle relaxants :D

You could be right! But I'll keep taking the Midol...

west5

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:43 PM

I am her trainer. I have requested from mom a "doctor's note" which she never produced so one can only assume she is medicating her herself but I don't like to make assumptions.

Not only am I concerned morally, I am concerned that this young girl will never learn coping skills and she may be impaired while riding. Again, perhaps none of my business. I did tell mom that if daughter ever shows at an FEI sanctioned event, that daughter could be drug tested as well as the horse.

I understand that people take Xanax with no problems to take off the edge and I don't have a problem with that --but I just don't think this is the right approach for minors I guess.

I doctor's note is a must.

I see a parent who is not disclosing what her child truly needs to the child's teacher/trainer as a huge issue.

Anxiety shouldn't be something to be embarrassed about but something you address. Doling out pills with out a doctors permission to your child is something to be embarrassed about and you are right to be concerned if this is the case.

I think if it can be brought out in the open then you can work on a tandem approach with her. Sometimes she uses the prescribed medications and other times you work on other coping methods.

If it is being ok'd by an MD I think you will have to work on/get over your issues of it being "morally" wrong.

FancyFree

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:44 PM

Having Anxiety issues, I take Xanex on occassion and Paxil daily.

Everyone reacts differently with Xanex. For me, it just takes the knot out of my stomach. I drive, ride just fine.

I can give the same dosage to Mr.H2, who is 6'1 and well over 200 lbs and it knocks him on his arse...:yes:

Honestly, my sister used to give her daughter a very small amount of Xanex before shows also to take the edge off.

I know you all mean well, but unless you have a Anxiety issue or severe case of nerves to the point of vomiting, please don't judge.

Again, you can read all the informational inserts provided with the medication, BUT everyone reacts differently.
That is the reason there are soooo many different Anxiety drugs out there.

Thank you for weighing in fellow anxiety sufferer! Everyone reacts differently to medication. Panic attacks are not "stage fright" for the record.

The issue here is:

1. Does this kid have a scrip for the medication?

If no, the client should be fired and perhaps reported to the authorities.

BuddyRoo

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:53 PM

Hunter/Fancy--just because other posters haven't out and out stated that they too have suffered from anxiety, depression, etc, and been on these meds doesn't mean that you're alone. The reason I posted the direct link to the information page regarding Xanax is that I think rather than just posting "personal experience", the actual FACTS should come into play.

The fact is, as you've both stated, medications affect people differently. The adolescent brain often reacts to meds even more erradically which is why many great "adult" meds are contraindicated in children/adolescents.

While I realize that's neither her nor there for the sake of this argument, and we're all generally on the same page as it pertains to the child, don't just assume that when one posts facts that one has not been down the road and is attacking "you" or minimizing your experience.

FancyFree

Sep. 15, 2007, 12:59 PM

I didn't think you were attacking BuddyRoo. :) I just think people unfamiliar with the drugs need to know that not everyone who takes anti-anxity meds goes in "slo-mo" or acts impaired. You can take them responsibly. But they're obviously not for children.

SBT

Sep. 15, 2007, 01:15 PM

Adamantane

Sep. 15, 2007, 01:22 PM

Does the kid appear to be impaired in terms of judgment and coordination after she takes the anti-anxiety meds or not?

Does it make a difference in her performance, for the better or for the worse?

Much of the labeling on meds (and many other things) are driven by the regulatory and legal liability on the part of the maker more than pharmacology (in the case of drugs) or reasonable risk assessment. The cautions are usually based on worst-case outliers since the reaction of individuals to substances varies all over the map. It's unfortunate that this is so because it's difficult from reading the insert to know what are authentic risks and what are mere CYA disclaimers. (Nowadays even purified laboratory sand and distilled water are labeled to be kept out of the reach of children. Dwinka wawa and pway inna sandbox?)

Except as it might be for the case of negligently standing by while a frankly impaired adult puts him/herself and others at risk of harm, I don't see it as the responsibility of anyone other than the person actually taking medicine (or in the case of a kid, the kid's parent) to intrude in private medical choices, whether we personally feel they are optimal or not.

As for riding (which is as the legal notices all state is an inherently dangerous activity), centuries before any of us posting here first drew breath, a stirrup cup or two before hunting, etc., was an established custom, one presumes as much for anxious anticipation as conviviality.

With respect to coping skill development, if one is half paralyzed with fear, how can one gain the posiitve experience to develop confidence? With respect to safety, who is the safer on a horse: one who is taut as a fiddlestring, or someone who is calm?

If the young woman or her riding skills are impaired, then it is an issue worth revisiting. Otherwise it's between her and Mom and their family doctor.

Beasmom

Sep. 15, 2007, 01:43 PM

I quote Adamantane: "As for riding (which is as the legal notices all state is an inherently dangerous activity), centuries before any of us posting here first drew breath, a stirrup cup or two before hunting, etc., was an established custom, one presumes as much for anxious anticipation as conviviality."

That's fine for the foxhunting crowd, I guess. I've tried giving a lesson to a student after one Margarita (she and I went out to dinner before the lesson) and it was a waste of time for both of us. We will never make that mistake again! We save the eating and drinking for AFTER the lesson now.

As I'm sitting here thinking back -- I remember going out with friends for Mexican food and a pitcher of Margs on a regular basis before our lessons with our crazy Volgadeutch instructor, Arnold. He yelled a lot. Margs made him more tolerable.

Guess that makes me a hypocrite. I swear my tolerance for alcohol was higher 25 years ago...

Those were different times. Liability issues are different now.

BuddyRoo

Sep. 15, 2007, 01:51 PM

I guess for me, it's less about the potential side effects of a PRESCRIBED medication as it is about the potential for controlled substances being given to a minor without doctor's prescription. It's illegal.

There are enough risks when a drug is scripted out by a physician who has examined the patient and who is monitoring treatment. Those risks multiply when the drug is being given without a doctor's direction.

dressurpferd01

Sep. 15, 2007, 01:54 PM

blazn

Sep. 15, 2007, 01:54 PM

If it's illegal to "medicate" a nervous horse for competition, why is it OK to "medicate" a rider?

pintopiaffe

Sep. 15, 2007, 02:04 PM

Doctor's note or else.

It's a FELONY here to give Xanax to someone to whom it's not prescribed. And where it's a minor involved, there's a host of other CRIMINAL charges we could get into.

If it's the child's Rx, it's a different story.

But if it is not, it's a felony here, and knowing and allowing it... I could argue a case for accessory/allowing. :uhoh:

LLDM

Sep. 15, 2007, 02:25 PM

I agree with those who say you need to get a doctor's note or drop the client! :uhoh:

Approach the mom again and tell her that for liability purposes, you MUST have a doctor's note stating that it's OK for the child to ride while taking xanax. Tell mom that this is non-negotiable, and if she does not produce the note within one week, she will have to find a different trainer.

If you don't get a note and these people leave, I'd say a call to CPS is in order. No friggen' WAY should ANYONE be giving their child a psychotropic drug without a prescription! :mad: :no:

I agree absolutely with this! You need a note from the child's doctor that says specifically that this child is specifically allowed to be on Xanax both riding a horse AND being around horses on the ground.

The child should not come back to your barn until you get that note! I think you would have been fine if you didn't know. But now you do know and will either forbid contact with horses on your property or on your watch (horse shows) until you have said note OR I think you will have some level of liability by not ensuring this is safe for the kid. (Or safe for your horses, your other clients and yourself.)

You might also request a list of potential side-effects that you need to be on watch for. This is especially important if you are ever in the position of being with the kid when her mother is not there. If you get the note, you may want to speak with the doctor directly. It would really cover your butt if anything ever happened.

For all of you guys who say it's fine, doesn't matter, or not the OP's business - hey, it's not your butt on the line. Take your own chances with your life, or your kid's life. But don't expect other people to bear any of the responsibility. The OP is in a position of responsibility in relation to this child. She is absolutely right to be concerned now that she is aware of the issue.

If this kid needs the medication, and that medication is safe under the circumstances she takes it, well - then all is well.

SCFarm

Bravo

Sep. 15, 2007, 02:30 PM

I agree with others about the mother giving her daughter meds that are not prescribed for her, and personally, I would find it hard to believe that a dr. would knowingly prescribe that sort of drug to a child just to get her through a horse show.
Children DO need to learn to deal with anxioty. It is a NORMAL reaction to things like competition, public speaking, etc. You have to go through some of that growing up to learn to cope. I think most adults that have these issues have been through the gamet of trying to learn coping skills that have not gotten them anywhere, but to randomly pop pills just to avoid being anxious at shows, that are not neccessary to life, is irresponsible. Most people on these meds do so just so they can get up in the morning and cope with plain old life, not to GET THROUGH a particular event.
I'm not making lite of anyone on meds, as I take several different medications for my mental health. I just want to state my opinion that I find it HORRIBLE that a mother would do this to her child without a drs. prescription. If she has one, then fine, its that family's issue to deal with, but if not.....
I think you would be very wise to confront the mom on this and if shes uncooperative, dump her and get family services involved RIGHT AWAY!!! This is definately NOT the kind of thing that we, as a society should be thinking is 'no big deal'. This mother could be putting her daughter's imediate life in jeprody, and possibly, the rest of her life as well.

Ghazzu

Sep. 15, 2007, 02:37 PM

Having Anxiety issues, I take Xanex on occassion and Paxil daily.

Everyone reacts differently with Xanex. For me, it just takes the knot out of my stomach. I drive, ride just fine.

I can give the same dosage to Mr.H2, who is 6'1 and well over 200 lbs and it knocks him on his arse...:yes:

Honestly, my sister used to give her daughter a very small amount of Xanex before shows also to take the edge off.

I know you all mean well, but unless you have a Anxiety issue or severe case of nerves to the point of vomiting, please don't judge.

Again, you can read all the informational inserts provided with the medication, BUT everyone reacts differently.
That is the reason there are soooo many different Anxiety drugs out there.

Look at what you just said--the same dose of this drug affects different people differently.

Newsflash--that's one of the reasons the drug is a prescription medication.

It matters not in this situation whether or not the child, or indeed, any of the readers here suffer from anxiety.
The pertinent information is whether or not Mom is *illegally* and recklessly providing prescription medication to her daughter. If she is, then it is *wrong*.
If the child needs the medication, perhaps it should be prescribed for her.

80s rider

Sep. 15, 2007, 02:45 PM

What's wrong with people? I agree with everything King's Ransom said. Anxiety is part of life and sports. Does this Mother medicate her daughter before she takes tests at school? Goes on a first date? learns to drive? She going to give this kid some serious problems later in life, if not sooner. I would drop them as clients, hopefully the Mom's not giving other moms and kids in your barn any ideas. "Susie takes this, her mom gives it to her, she wins all the time, I'll try some to", Pretty soon you'll be the barn to go to for "stress release" medication. Good topic for some barn gossip, and a great way to NOT get new clients.

Stacie

Sep. 15, 2007, 02:48 PM

So if I'm prescibed an anti-anxiety medication and show, I'm "riding impaired"? You must not know much about anti-anxiety medication. You can live your life and do everyday things while taking them.

But you're used to it. Your body has adapted so you don't get the side effects. Think about the first couple of times you had a beer versus drinking a beer now. I bet you were quite impaired by a beer at first. It's physiology, the liver is adaptable over time.

A minor taking Xanax when it's not her prescription, she isn't used to taking it and going out into the chaos of a show on a 1000 pound animal could certainly be riding impaired.

Adamantane

Sep. 15, 2007, 02:49 PM

While I'm more familiar with the first two generations of benzodiazepines than the third or later, xanax is not contraindicated in children.

The manufacturer chose not to undertake the expensive clinical trials and overblown FDA rigamarole sufficient to obtain an indication for people under 18. (Given the size of the market and the existing alternatives, it would not be cost effective to do so and now with patent protection expired there is no reason ever to even reconsider that.)

Other benzodiazepines such as oxazepam are indicated for kids down into the single digit ages.

Not to second guess their doctor, but given the short halflife and absence of active metabolites, as well as the indications for that age group, probably oxazepam could be a less potentially problematic first choice.

Taking the odd dose of some anxiolytic situationally (e.g., for a horse show now and again) is a far different thing than consuming them every few hours daily over time. The dependence potential (very low for oxazepam, incidentally, although the DEA typically and ham-handedly scheduled all members of the benzodiazepine family the same) under this isolated dosage scenario is essentially zilch. I respect that in large doses over time there can be a significant risk of habituation, with diazepam (Valium) being the classic example.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think it is an established fact that the child's use of this was without the agreement of competent medical authority.

In my experience, most horse people generally have a commonsensical and proportional view about most things and a mind-your-own-business attitude because they resent having others intruding into their own lives. (Many barn ruckuses have their roots in someone who momentarily neglects that rule of thumb!)

For that reason I am astounded that there are people posting here who seriously propose siccing child welfare cops on some poor mother on the suspicion that she might possibly have given her child medication without involving her physician. Concern is fine. Calling in the law is just outlandish. And what goes around comes around. This is America, folks, not East Germany.

Generations of southern moms have given their teething babies sugar cubes soaked in bourbon. Giving booze to an infant! Horrors! Call the sheriff and the SWAT team! :eek:

Common sense and proportion, folks, common sense and proportion.

There are real drug and child abuse problems in the world and this sure as hell ain't one of 'em.:no::no:

deltawave

Sep. 15, 2007, 02:57 PM

Isn't participating in competitive sports one of the ways young people learn HOW to cope with performance anxiety? What a very sad commentary.

If the child was prescribed the Xanax by her doctor for a specific reason, then I'd leave it alone, although asking for the doctor's note is certainly a great idea. If mama is medicating the kid from her own stash, I'd personally have a big problem with it.

Stacie

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:02 PM

I suspect the placebo effect to be operating in your case, as well, as Midol does not contain any muscle relaxants :D

One of the midol formulas includes the antihistamine Pyrilamine maleate which is a thromboxane blocker which means it relaxes smooth muscles. Smooth muscles are in all hollow organs like the bladder, intestines and lungs.

deltawave

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:06 PM

carolprudm

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:20 PM

Beasmom

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:23 PM

One of the midol formulas includes the antihistamine Pyrilamine maleate which is a thromboxane blocker which means it relaxes smooth muscles. Smooth muscles are in all hollow organs like the heart, intestines and lungs.

All this sent me to Wikipedia, which states that Pyrilamine Maleate is an antihistimine. So the relaxation of smooth muscles makes sense to me. Thanks for the information! I was sure it wasn't JUST a placebo effect!

Stacie

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:25 PM

Which means it affects show nerves how, exactly? Smooth muscle relaxation is vastly different from "traditional" muscle relaxers like valium, flexeril, etc. They have ZERO effect on skeletal muscle.

And I'm pretty sure Ghazzu knows what smooth muscle is. :)

Perhaps it relaxes the feeling of a knotting stomach/intestines.

equinelaw

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:26 PM

I am familiar with the drugs and the law.

I think instead of a doctors note, which you really have no right to see, you should write up a release of some sort that describes the activities the kid will be doing while on the Xanax and have the Mom bring it to the doctor for HIS/HER OK.

Even if the doctor does prescribe it to the kid, he may not know it is being used before riding and may not understand what riding involves if she is not a horsewoman too.

Something like this:

I, trainer X, am training child Y. The sport invovles a,b,c,d, .. . .

I am not a doctor or the parent of child Y, but I need some assurances that it is safe for me to have child Y ride while on drug Xa. I also need assurances that Dr is aware of the activities and nature of the sport child performs while taking drug Xa.

Please clear child Y for these activities while taking drug Xa.

Signed my DR____________________________ Date__________

A huge chunk of Americans are on some medication or another. Its their right, but you do have a right to know if its safe for YOU to be invovled in having someone ride on your farm or under your charge while on a drug.

Most people take 1 pill a day and you would never be aware they are on anything, but since you have become aware and do have valid concerns I think Mom should need to address those concerns.

No release. . bye bye client. Its a fair way to establish if the kid has a prescription and whether her doctor knows she rides on it and feels its safe.

I have ridden on it a few times in the past and for me it was happy time, but I was probably impared. I prefer other treatments for my anxiety, but thats between me and my doctor. If my trainer had a problem with impaired riders at his farm he had every right to tell me to stop--but of course he was always too drunk to notice:D

Nobody can say what effect the pills have on that child at that time, but if you NOTICE some imparment you have every right to say NO. If you don't, you have a personal ethical delema that only you can overcome, but you need to learn a whole lot about the child's condition and the drugs before you make up your mind. Fear is dangerous too.

I think Xanax is MUCH safer once and awhile then a regular dose of Prozac or Paxil. You have to consider if you close one door, what other door will Mom open? If I took Xanax every day and had to stop I could go through horrible withdrawls for several days. Yuck. If I took Paxil every day the weaning off period could be 4-6 months and it wont work unless I take it every day. If I stopped cold turkey I would be out of my mind for several weeks. Its dangerous for children to take and could cause irreparible brain injury.

Don't be too quick to force child off a drug thats been around for ages with well known effects and make Mommy give her something worse:no: The kid will be 18 soon enough, but for now only Mommy and Dr can make those calls.

Rebe

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:27 PM

Everyone sing along now:

"She goes running for the shelter
Of her mother's little helper..."

OK, so you have to be old enough to recognize the Stones. :D

deltawave

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:34 PM

"Doctor pleeeze, some more of theeeeese." Outside the door she took four moooore.
What a drag it is getting old.

Or being young and at a horse show.

:D

Ghazzu

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:40 PM

Which means it affects show nerves how, exactly? Smooth muscle relaxation is vastly different from "traditional" muscle relaxers like valium, flexeril, etc. They have ZERO effect on skeletal muscle.

And I'm pretty sure Ghazzu knows what smooth muscle is. :)

Yabbut I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the erroneous classification of cardiac muscle as smooth muscle :D

Ghazzu

Sep. 15, 2007, 03:51 PM

One of the midol formulas includes the antihistamine Pyrilamine maleate which is a thromboxane blocker which means it relaxes smooth muscles. Smooth muscles are in all hollow organs like the heart, intestines and lungs.

Cardiac muscle isn't smooth muscle; it is cardiac muscle.

And any anxiety relieving effect of pyrilamine is more likely due to its CNS effects than any smooth muscle relaxation.

The CNS effect is why it is a prohibited substance for competing horses.

Alagirl

Sep. 15, 2007, 04:20 PM

I have only skimmed over the first few responses...

Suggest Rescue Remedy. That stuff is awesome to take off the edge!

Sannois

Sep. 15, 2007, 04:34 PM

Good GAWD people, it's not that difficult!

OP is the trainer of daughter who's knowingly riding impaired! DROP THE CLIENT. Can you say "Liability"? I don't give a rats' @ss if the mom is the one giving the Xanax...

Sheesh....

Dump her, before you get in the middle of a big mess. Tell mom unless she has a note for you that the child is on a perscribed drug and I doubt any doc is perscribing Zanax for a kid, Just let the client go. What is wrong with parents! :mad:

Beasmom

Sep. 15, 2007, 04:35 PM

Y'know, I've tried Rescue Remedy on myself and my horse. Can't say it ever made a difference. Why would it seem to work for some and not others?

Sannois

Sep. 15, 2007, 04:37 PM

just suck it up take a deep breath and ride. I rode from the age of 8 and showed. Sure you get butterflys, but for crying out loud if it makes anyone that nervous that they need a drug, especially a child then take up tennis. What the heck has happened to this country! Sickening! :eek::no::mad:

J Swan

Sep. 15, 2007, 05:06 PM

You know, these drugs are supposed to be for DISORDERS; not performance anxiety, butterflies in the stomach, etc. If the kid has performance anxiety - there are a million ways to improve it that don't involve drugs or alcohol. Geez - I took a media class on public speaking in the 8th grade, for crying out loud.

A lot of this must be the placebo effect - since taking these drugs aren't supposed to be like downing a martini after a bad day at work - they are supposed to be taken over time to improve a certain disorder over time.

It would pain me to do it - but I'd fire the client. Pill popping parent and part time drug pusher to a child - do you really want to be responsible for that kid's safety?

There is nothing wrong with all these anxiety drugs, SSRI's and other types of drugs - they have done wonders for a great many people. But they were never supposed to be taken like that - especially by kids.

Good luck.

Cherry

Sep. 15, 2007, 05:09 PM

What the heck has happened to this country!
Good question!!!! :winkgrin: Day and night there are ads for prescription drugs on television and the pharmaceutical companies want you to be sure you ask your doctor for them! :lol: "If you have a problem, we have a pill for you!". :uhoh: Of course, each pill has a list of side effects as long as your arm, in most cases the side effects are worse than the problem you're trying to correct!!!! :eek:

This is an interesting thread....

When I went for training for therapeutic riding instruction there was a whole class on drugs, their side effects and what to look for when dealing with participants.... Maybe instructors of able bodied clients need to take a class like this too--in self defense.... :uhoh:

deltawave

Sep. 15, 2007, 05:29 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of coronaries (smooth muscle) since that's what I think about for most of my life. :lol:

Without knowing the whole situation it's hard to pass judgment, but I tend to agree that we as a society are WAY too interested in the "quick fix" mentality, more's the pity. That's not to say that drugs don't have their place, but for me it wouldn't be in the bloodstream of my kid as they went out for a ride. I've never taken Xanax, but just a little bit of Valium makes me dopey as heck. :lol:

Huntertwo

Sep. 15, 2007, 06:30 PM

I can't even fathom randomly giving a kid Xanax. Do any of you actually have any real-world idea of how addicitve this stuff is? Those of you who take it and say it barely affects you, that's called TOLERANCE people, and is one of the first stages of addiction. I know firsthand how hard it is to kick a habit like that. Instead of running to drugs like benzos, try meditation or yoga to help you calm your nerves. Our society is so quick to jump to chemical fixes it astounds me. I can't even imagine riding under the influence of any amount of Xanax. Whether you think it impairs you or not, it does, period. Doing anything around horses, but especially riding and even MORE jumping, is plain stupid while on this stuff. If I were in the OP's shoes, I'd drop the clients like a hot potatoe and I'd strongly consider involving Children and Family Services.

Yes, I know Xanex is addictive. That is why I said I take it occasionally.
Plus most ethical Dr.s only prescribe so much. Also, you don't know me, how can you make the presumption that it impairs me?
Some people can have a beer with no affect at all, some get a bit tipsy.

I suffered for years when I was younger from anxiety, never realizing that I could have been helped along time ago.

It is proven that anxiety and panic attacks are not just a simple case of nerves, but a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Without getting too personal, some of us had screwed up childhoods from day 1. Believe me yoga and meditation is NOT going to solve issues I've had for 40 plus years. And I applaud the people who can be helped by yoga and meditation. But when something is so ingrained in you for so long, it is not that easy.

But, I'm straying off topic here...

tbtrailrider

Sep. 15, 2007, 07:38 PM

I don't take Xanax now. But thanks for the info! :D

like I said, if you think it's abuse, report the mom. Simple as that.

WHOA WHOA WHOA

Coming someone who suffered from addiction years ago...and had their children removed by social services as a consequence....I can only BEG you to consider the ramifications to the mother if you "report" her...
I may have deserved it...I got my $hit together and regained custody of my kids..they are young adults now...but dang people...sometimes you should mind your own damn business.

Just drop the client if it bothers you that much.

horse-loverz

Sep. 15, 2007, 08:44 PM

Ok.. Speaking as a nurse, and a parent of a very young child with a severe anxiety disorder I must weigh in here... Do I think that the mother should produce the trainer a note from child's doctor?... yes most certainly.. and if it is the child's Xanax that shouldn't be any problem whatsoever. I'm not sure of the age of the child was stated but if it is a young child.. maybe they haven't learned good coping skills yet... or mother hasn't helped her learn proper coping skill.. or maybe she has some but it's not enough in a high stress situation. Is it a crutch for the child? Maybe....maybe not..

My 6yo has a pretty severe anxiety disorder... I thought she was just difficult.. and stubborn.. and the school thought she had ADHD.. but then she started to develop OCD behaviors and sensory dysfunciton behaviors as well. We had her fully evaluated by a center that specializes in ADHD and other mental disorders in children and they said while she has some components of ADHD Anxiety was her major problem.. and some of her tantrums were panic attacks... and this was when she was only 5 years old!!! I was stunned.. I would have never thought a 5yo could have anxiety as severe as hers was. She developed the OCD tenancies as a way to cope with her anxiety.. Kindergarden was absolute hell! She has been on meds for a year now.. see's a psychologist and psychiatrist once a month to help her learn to cope in a healthy way with her anxiety and how to recognize and verbalize when she in anxious. She is on 3 different medications. (and no none of them are Xanax) to help keep her on track. I asked her Psychiatrist about Xanax for her because honestly I didn't know what they put little kids on for that and he stated that because of the high risk of dependance they do not reccomend them for children but depending on the case it may be necessary. Sydni got prescribed Zoloft for her anxiety and nothing to take on an as needed basis. In one year she has made tremendous strides in battling her anxiety but sometimes it is a struggle. Put her in a new situtation and she may start to hyperventilate her eyes dialate.. and she becomes very tense.. I can see it all happen now and can try to soothe her (non medicinaly) before she breaks down.

She has started riding horses and has Pony Curtis and it has been wonderful for her. She did go to her first little leadline show and as nervous as I was for her she handeled herself beautifully she only got her regular meds that day...nothing extra.

So before you throw stones at the mother... she may know something about her child that you don't. The child may truly need it to function in any capicity if she is under stress. If she takes these regularly she knows how her body will react to the medication and that she won't be too impaired to ride. But if that is the case the mother should have no problem showing you proof of that fact. If this was the first time the child has ever taken this med.. and mom just thought it would be a good idea... well that's a whole nother ball game altogeter..

Just wanted to share from a mom's point of view as well...

Tha Ridge

Sep. 15, 2007, 08:58 PM

For those who are anti-medication, I don't think you are familiar with the fact that there is a HUGE difference between nerves and anxiety. Nerves are normal and should be dealt with, anxiety is not even comparable.

I don't know this girl personally, but when I'm talking anxiety, I mean shaking, vomiting, feeling of "impending sense of doom" - the worst kind of nerves you could ever imagine. In that case, I don't think a prescription of Xanax is inappropriate.

Also, Xanax is offered in MANY different forms - there is one dosage that is .25 mg. With the short halflife, that is HARDLY anything.

I will put in a plug for Bach's Rescue Remedy though. It's worked surprisingly well for me.

Holly'er Than Thou

Sep. 15, 2007, 09:02 PM

I haven't gone thru & read all responses, but if Mom won't sign a release & you think that this girl is in any way being medicated inappropriately, it is your duty to call Child Protective Services. You can do it anonymously.

The mom will doubtless suspect you, but better to lose a client that way than thru some horrible accident/incident. If you had never known, nothing to do. But the mother informed you; at that point, it was "out there".

horse-loverz

Sep. 15, 2007, 09:14 PM

How old is this child??? and please please before you contact Child Protective services.. have a talk with the mom first.. ...

Jealoushe

Sep. 15, 2007, 09:28 PM

Eventing star Pippa Funnel had a problem like that, and instead of drugs she turned to a sports psychlogist. After her sessions she went on to win the Rolex Grand Slam of eventing, and if youve ever read anything about her you know she gives most of the credit to her psychologist, and horse, of course.

A lot of psychological problems can be remedied without drugs, unfortunately they are usually the easier, quicker way out. I think the big question is are they for anxiety the child gets regularly, or just for nerves at horse shows? Its sad to think that kid might learn in the future...oh this is stressfull and difficult...why don't I just pop this pill to make my life easier....:(

Stacie

Sep. 15, 2007, 09:34 PM

Yabbut I'm surprised you didn't pick up on the erroneous classification of cardiac muscle as smooth muscle :D
I have edited my post to be accurate, although the point I should have made was that cardiac muscle is affected the same why by the drug because of characteristics that it has in common with smooth muscle, at least according to the research paper I was reading about it.

paw

Sep. 15, 2007, 09:45 PM

I guess the big question here really is whether it's the child's Xanax or not. Sounds suspiciously like it might not be, in which case I agree - you should drop the client unless the mother will cease dispensing to her child illegally (something you should get in writing). Blame _your_ (trainer's) insurance policy if you must.

There does seem to be a lot of parental laissez-faire regarding their children's use of mood-altering substances (alcohol, non-prescribed medication, etc) these days - not sure why that is, but it doesn't mean you have to be a party to it. If the child actually _does_ have an anxiety disorder and her own Xanax script, I'm not sure why the mother would have a problem telling you about it; one would think that, as her trainer, the fact that she does have this problem is something that might be germane to your training her.

Not sure I'd sicc CPS on the mother, though - those folks often don't have a lot of discretionary latitude once the bureacratic wheels get set in motion.

BarbB

Sep. 15, 2007, 09:52 PM

Doctors note or drop the client - simple as that.

ditto

S1969

Sep. 15, 2007, 10:22 PM

I haven't gone thru & read all responses, but if Mom won't sign a release & you think that this girl is in any way being medicated inappropriately, it is your duty to call Child Protective Services. You can do it anonymously.

Sorry, but all you know about this is that the mother of the child says the child has an anxiety problem and is medicating her with a medicine that is typically prescribed for anxiety. I think calling CPS is way out of line! Honestly, it is not YOUR DUTY to interfere, and in reality you could be completely wrong about your assumptions.

As far as signing the release; honestly, what will that legally do for you (the trainer) anyway? You are not the parent or guardian of the child. Presumably there is a liability waiver already signed for this child, and potentially a request for off-premises insurance to cover the horse and any damages that it may do (if owned by the client). How far do you think your legal responsibilities go?

If you do ask for a waiver, it would seem legally responsible that you should ask for a waiver from all your clients - for any medication they may be taking that could potentially alter their ability to perform safely in the sport. Is this the norm?? Do you really need to know if a client is taking ADD/ADHD medication, asthma medication, anti-anxiety meds, heart meds, birth control pills???

In this instance, I think it would be appropriate for you to talk to the mom and ask if the meds are prescribed to the child by her own doctor. If the mom does not want to answer, I would document the incident, and I would consider the lack of trust and parental supervision to be reason enough to terminate the trainer/client relationship (as if you even need any reason, actually). If you are not comfortable with the situation, then explain this to the parent and end the relationship.

Adamantane

Sep. 15, 2007, 10:42 PM

I haven't gone thru & read all responses, but if Mom won't sign a release & you think that this girl is in any way being medicated inappropriately, it is your duty to call Child Protective Services. You can do it anonymously.

Indeed Holly'er Than Thou.

Here is a mother evidently trying to be loving toward her child, provide her with riding lessons and make the girl's show experiences positive by addressing the girl's anxiety in what appears to be a measured way. OP is reasonable in trying to decide if there is some basis for personal liability in a litigious world seemingly gone mad.

Your anonymous 'solution,' however, is to instantly create an environment in which the girl, her mother, her father -- funny how nobody even mentions the child's father or talking to him -- and maybe a couple of young siblings nobody named in the story ever has met, will be put through hell for weeks and months, maybe years -- by some officious overbearing impersonal nanny state functionaries who don't subscribe to 'innocent until proved guilty.' What's more the poor schmucks won't even see it coming.

Your proposed 'concerned' intervention leads to having the integrity and dynamics of someone's family scarred and disrupted forever because of vague suspicions supported only by a tissue of suppositions and idle speculation.

That pseudo-caring busybody approach you encourage is one that wrecks marriages, destroys careers, bankrupts families, engenders suspicions of wrongdoing that will never go away, and can put totally innocent people including children, parents and grandparents through lifelong psychological meatgrinders. You think the little girl has anxiety now? Just wait.

With substantial factual basis for thinking somebody is being sexually abused, beaten or tortured, intentionally malnourished or surreptitiously poisoned, by all means recommend going to the authorities, but at least recommend doing so with the personal integrity that includes signing one's name on the complaint and facing up to the social and legal consequences if it turns out the supposition is mistaken.

But maybe your way is better. Encourage someone to whisper like a snitch in the shadows about fanciful speculation, then stand by to watch the ensuing carnage safely from the sidelines. This sneak approach has worked so well in all the other societies where it was tried.

To be sure either way everybody in the whole family soon will possess bonafide Rx's for psychoactive drugs in dosages a lot more powerful than a fraction of a mg. of xanax every couple of weeks before a jump class at a show. It will be a brave thing of which we all really will be proud.

Common sense and proportion. What on earth are you thinking???!!!

Pommederue

Sep. 15, 2007, 10:43 PM

Thanks so much for all your input.

MacknCody

Sep. 15, 2007, 10:44 PM

Ok we know almost no facts. How old is the child? What does the mom say??

If the child is 16 or older, has a diagnosed ANXIETY/PANIC DISORDER, then its mind your business. Xanax-to me doesn't do anything, in fact I haven't taken it in a long time due to the fact that it just never really affected me(I'm notorious for tolerance of meds:confused:no not an addict) and I have had a 'script for it since I was 17. In my case Rescue Remedy works better... but I'm not saying it can't have serious effects for some people.

There is an extreme difference in performance anxiety and a panic disorder, and no, yoga and meditation doesn't do shit for some of us. Sannois if the kid does have a disorder than "sucking it up" doesn't factor in at all-get a clue.

Hmm....lost my train of thought. Basically if the kid DOESN'T have a RX, then you got a problem; if they DO then its MYOB.

And geez we all have our problems, get off your high-horses or it'll bit you in the ass in the long run. (not directed at the OP)

Crap sorry OP you posted as I was writing my reply.

deltawave

Sep. 15, 2007, 11:00 PM

0.25mg of Xanax is all I ever give anyone...don't let the tiny number fool you, that is a solid, adult-sized dose.

None of us knows the realities of the situation, so I think the OP's plan to insist on a copy of the prescription or doctor's note is appropriate. After all, what would happen if the kid were randomly selected for drug testing or (God forbid) got injured and was felt to be "NQR". The paramedics would need to know what she was taking.

Irish Ei's

Sep. 15, 2007, 11:54 PM

From a former mother who spent over 6 years monitoring Medication Trials, refills, shipping and side -effects...
Stop making Assumptions..
Educate yourself.
Never ever Judge...You may end up in Her shoes someday...
And I can only pray it Doesn't......
So should You.....

Lucky Duck

Sep. 16, 2007, 12:15 AM

You've been put in a difficult situation.

IMHO, be wary of the documentation route. That may raise flags with her for any number of reasons and cause problems (although it's meant well).

Soft peddle it instead. A la Jealoushe, consider offering to help address the show jitters and/or mentioning not wanting to inadvertently exacerbate any anxiety problems (insert safety reason here).

"I want proof or else" becomes "tailoring to the client's needs."

IronwoodFarm

Sep. 16, 2007, 06:51 AM

There is one issue on the documentation route that could cause a problem. I am saying this from the perspective of someone who works for insurance companies DEFENDING liability claims. I've been doing this for over 25 years, so I have seen a few claims in my lifetime.

Unless the OP is going to ask for medical information from ALL her clients, she is going to have a liability exposure by asking for it from only one client. There is no liability problem as far as defending a claim against the trainer under the present circumstances. The trainer is not a physician and is not expected to be monitoring medications as part of her duties as a trainer. However, once she requires for a doctor's note for medications on one minor, she has opened a huge can of worms. The problem will come when ANOTHER student, one who is being medicated but wasn't asked about it, can have a claim. I can see the plaintiff's attorney having a field day as to why if safety was such a huge concern, did the OP bother with Student A and not Student B? If medication was such a big issue, why didn't she bother to find out from ALL her students?

Remember, the OP wasn't aware of the medication for the teen until the mother told her and has no idea what the child is receiving. In fact, the trainer was impressed that the teen was calm at shows. So it's hard to argue that the child was impaired. In any case, trainers aren't qualified to assess medications.

The OP's trainer's liability insurance should cover the current situation. (I preface my remarks with "should" because I am licensed and held to a higher standard, but I have never seen a trainer's liability policy that excludes or limits coverage if a minor is medicated by the parent.) This is not an insurance problem, but the trainer's issue with medications and the mother. The answer has been posted a number of times -- if you don't like what the client is doing, drop the client.

I promise the OP that collecting medical information is a terribly slippery slope and not someplace she wants to go. It will do her more harm than good in the unlikely event of a claim.

tbtrailrider

Sep. 16, 2007, 08:42 AM

Indeed Holly'er Than Thou.

Here is a mother evidently trying to be loving toward her child, provide her with riding lessons and make the girl's show experiences positive by addressing the girl's anxiety in what appears to be a measured way. OP is reasonable in trying to decide if there is some basis for personal liability in a litigious world seemingly gone mad.

Your anonymous 'solution,' however, is to instantly create an environment in which the girl, her mother, her father -- funny how nobody even mentions the child's father or talking to him -- and maybe a couple of young siblings nobody named in the story ever has met, will be put through hell for weeks and months, maybe years -- by some officious overbearing impersonal nanny state functionaries who don't subscribe to 'innocent until proved guilty.' What's more the poor schmucks won't even see it coming.

Your proposed 'concerned' intervention leads to having the integrity and dynamics of someone's family scarred and disrupted forever because of vague suspicions supported only by a tissue of suppositions and idle speculation.

That pseudo-caring busybody approach you encourage is one that wrecks marriages, destroys careers, bankrupts families, engenders suspicions of wrongdoing that will never go away, and can put totally innocent people including children, parents and grandparents through lifelong psychological meatgrinders. You think the little girl has anxiety now? Just wait.

With substantial factual basis for thinking somebody is being sexually abused, beaten or tortured, intentionally malnourished or surreptitiously poisoned, by all means recommend going to the authorities, but at least recommend doing so with the personal integrity that includes signing one's name on the complaint and facing up to the social and legal consequences if it turns out the supposition is mistaken.

But maybe your way is better. Encourage someone to whisper like a snitch in the shadows about fanciful speculation, then stand by to watch the ensuing carnage safely from the sidelines. This sneak approach has worked so well in all the other societies where it was tried.

To be sure either way everybody in the whole family soon will possess bonafide Rx's for psychoactive drugs in dosages a lot more powerful than a fraction of a mg. of xanax every couple of weeks before a jump class at a show. It will be a brave thing of which we all really will be proud.

Common sense and proportion. What on earth are you thinking???!!!

MOST EXCELLENT POST

enjoytheride

Sep. 16, 2007, 08:51 AM

MistyBlue

Sep. 16, 2007, 08:53 AM

I don't think the OP was taking a stand on medicating for anxiety or not, nor taking a stand on children on meds or not.
I think her point was that a student of hers is being given Xanax in a way that might or might not be affecting her reaction time on a horse and that said meds might not be prescribed for the daughter. If this is so and the daughter is only being given Mom's prescription drugs in order to get a better ride...then most likely daughter is not acclimated to such meds and there *is* a liability issue here. Since the OP asked Mom to produce a Dr's note for the Xanax and mom is unwilling to produce one and refuses to discuss it...then as a professional and responsible business person the OP should indeed drop them as clients. It's not fair for the Op to have such liability just because others feel recreational medicating is okay since it's thier own child. (if it is indeed recreational medicating...but no Dr note would *definitely* mean no client for me also regardless of how I felt or didn't feel about Xanax)

FlashGordon

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:09 AM

rebecca yount

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:24 AM

What adamantane and equinelaw said. You have no idea whether this medication is prescribed for the "teen" (and we don't know what age--13 or 18?), and it's none of your business, unless you make it a policy to ask for prescription medication information on all of your clients. For all you know, what the mother is giving the "teen" IS a placebo (ya know, as in The Birdcage when Agadore gave "aspirin tablet with the a and the s scratched off"). If you feel something dangerous re the "teen" riding is going on (e.g. she appears impaired while riding), then talk to the mom about it.

As for reporting to authorities--puh-leeeeeze! MYOB--and if it IS YOB because of impairment when riding, then deal with how it affects YOU and your business, by creating a professional policy that applies to ALL your clients and stick to it. It is not the mother's obligation to provide you with medical history and prescription information on her daughter and you are not entitled to this information. You are not, as far as I know, even a mandated reporter of abuse or neglect, which this probably does not represent anyway.

murphyluv

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:48 AM

murphyluv

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:52 AM

I have only skimmed over the first few responses...

Suggest Rescue Remedy. That stuff is awesome to take off the edge!

I also agree with that.. put a couple drops under tongue, or a couple drops in water bottle- shake. It DOES work.

WB Mom

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:58 AM

How sad this post even has to exist.
Bottom line:
Protect yourself. Even if you have to change your policies for all your clients. It's easier to come up with a form for everyone to sign than to be dragged into litigation. These days, most folks know that even if it doesn't apply to them, it's protection for you and should sign.
Trying to figure out why this is happening is not your concern, at this point. Get your forms completed and signed and go from there. Kids change and 6 months from now this may become a non-issue.
It's so frustrating to see something and not be able to do anything about it. However, there may be so many levels of disfunctionality to this family that your intervention may not even scratch the surface.
You are a such a wonderful person for caring and stewing about this. Sometimes in life we just have to sit back and watch despite our intense feelings about a situation.
That said, if you directly observe a situation that physically threatens a child, you should consider making a call to child services. Just remember that this call will change all their lives forever.

FindersKeepers

Sep. 16, 2007, 10:22 AM

Well I have skimmed all the posts, not read in great detail, but from someone who works with people with anxiety daily, and have had my own experience as well...

just MYOB. If you want a doctors note, kindly explain to the mother, that this like any other sport, like football, softball, etc, for the safety of your daughter, especially should she be injured and need to go to the hospital, you just need to know that for whatever medical conditions she has, she has the doctor's permission to ride, and that she is on this or that prescribed medication.

Just take a step back and think before you attack the woman. SHe's already told you to MYOB. Could it be that she is giving her daughter meds that aren't prescribed for her, sadly, yes. But could it also perhaps be that this young girl is dealing with a serious anxiety issue, and already has to deal with high school, riding horses (which, just FYI is not a "cool" sport to be involved in in high school, unless you live in a popular area I guess), and what do you really know about her home life? Are mom and dad together? Happily? Is she in a joint custody arrangement, does dad beat them? Has she had some kind of trauma in her life which would explain the anxiety disorder, and she is obtaining treatment, medical management and therapy, but to explain to you why this medication is necessary she would have to relive the whole experience all over again??

You need to be sensitive. This isn't a boarder giving their horse drugs before a show, this is a mom, likely protecting her child, who is unfortunate enough to grow up in this world that we have created that makes no sense and goes against natural things.

Just ask for the note, ask her to present it in 30 days, and then leave it alone. If you don't get it in 30 days, then explain to mother child won't be able to show under your training again until you do have the note. For everyone's safety.

Irish Ei's

Sep. 16, 2007, 10:24 AM

I also agree with that.. put a couple drops under tongue, or a couple drops in water bottle- shake. It DOES work.

Just to make you both aware of the extremely High Alchohol content of Rescue Remedy.....

Chief2

Sep. 16, 2007, 10:30 AM

I realize Equinelaw is correct in her viewpoint, which is probably the law as well, but frankly, I would be expecting the mother to be turning in a forged document just to get you off her back and get the training moving ahead. I would be hugely surprised if you get a doctor's note.
Parents whose kids have challenges and disorders spend most of a child's school years making endruns around teachers, administrators, coaches and trainers and even peer parents, so the kid can have equal access to school, sports and social activities without becoming labeled. When that doesn't work, they go to battle for them, which often becomes a yearly event at the beginning of each school year, with skirmishes following on and off throughout the year. Summer provides the only real relief, and then it's back to scheming out endruns and skirmishes.
You are not a public school teacher who has to put up with this, or put yourself at risk for a lawsuit. Most lawyers will give you an initial low-cost or free consult. I would use it here. Do not expect honesty or full disclosure with this parent at any time in the future.

murphyluv

Sep. 16, 2007, 10:34 AM

Just to make you both aware of the extremely High Alchohol content of Rescue Remedy.....

Riiight, and 2-3 drops is actually going to raise blood alcohol? I give the same amount to my dog- if that were going to make a kid drunk it'd make my dog fall over.

enjoytheride

Sep. 16, 2007, 10:48 AM

In some states you don't have to be a "designated abuse reporter" everybody is required to report abuse, just like everybody is required to report murder not just the police.

Adamantane

Sep. 16, 2007, 10:55 AM

That people equate being concerned about an adult, a PARENT giving a prescription strength medication illegally to a CHILD as something similar to Nazi Germany is appalling, the "it isn't your right to determine if someone is abusing their child" mentality is horrible. She isn't abusing her child, she is lovingly medicating her.

Exactly what level of concern or intervention doesn't get you labeled as a Nazi? If the medication is legally prescribed to the child it is not a big deal, but if an adult is slipping a child something (what if it were meth or cocaine, would you say something then?) illegal that is bad parenting period. Good parenting is taking a child to an actual doctor who goes through extensive education to determine what medications can be helpful. Don't tell anyone, or you'll be a snitch. Don't tell anyone or your meddling will ruin dozens of lives forever. Don't tell anyone or pretty soon you'll be goose stepping.

So where is the line drawn between being concerned about protecting a child (unable to protect themselves) and being a Nazi snitch? I think constantly looking the other way because it isn't your business is more in line. When do you tell the police someone is commiting a crime and when do you whistle and keep on walking? When are you a "life ruiner" and when do you prevent a crime from continuing?

I can't speak with certainty as to whatever is in the mind of other posters who may take a similar-seeming stand to my own, but just what exactly is unclear here about this (to me) very bright line on when and how to intervene?

With substantial factual basis for thinking somebody is being sexually abused, beaten or tortured, intentionally malnourished or surreptitiously poisoned, by all means recommend going to the authorities, but at least recommend doing so with the personal integrity that includes signing one's name on the complaint and facing up to the social and legal consequences if it turns out the supposition is mistaken.

This scarcely equates to a Kitty Genovese Syndrome/Bystander Effect mindset as you aver. :no:

spina

Sep. 16, 2007, 11:01 AM

If you do ask for a waiver, it would seem legally responsible that you should ask for a waiver from all your clients - for any medication they may be taking that could potentially alter their ability to perform safely in the sport. Is this the norm?? Do you really need to know if a client is taking ADD/ADHD medication, asthma medication, anti-anxiety meds, heart meds, birth control pills???

Absolutely agree. I doubt many people would be willing to disclose such personal information to their trainer, and I also doubt many would be completely honest. Why do you really feel that this is any of your business? How do YOU know she doesn't need the medication her mother is giving her, or that any other client might be taking?
If you feel this rider is not in any condition to ride for whatever reason, yank her off the horse or refuse to train her, but I would not recommend you put yourself in a position where you will need to educate yourself to the effects of every medication and potential side effects to be able to pick and choose which ones you will "allow" your students to medicate themselves with before riding with you. You simply can't control it - and if you do it for one, you better be sure you do it for everybody. You can have everyone sign waivers, disclosures or anything else you want until the cows come home, but that won't keep kids (and adults) from indulging in legal and illegal mind altering substances whenever they feel like it without informing you or anyone else. I'd rather see someone take a Xanax than a Nyquil - or snort or smoke something illegal. Would Benadryl be OK? what about Sudafed?
I also have to echo the poster who asked how much you know about Xanax - depending on the dosage it can be remarkably benign. Doctors will prescribe it (over the phone, no less) for patients who are anxious about a flight or business presentation.
As a trainer you have a responsibility to your clients and horses to exercise good judgement - not to be their parent or doctor. You can encourage them to take responsibility for their own health, and you need to be aware enough to know if someone is healthy and alert enough to ride to the level they would like, or that you are asking for. If they are not, then it's up to you if you want to find a temporary (get them off the horse) or permanent (lose them as clients) solution - but I would stay out of their personal medical and emotional histories.

enjoytheride

Sep. 16, 2007, 11:04 AM

That is because your definition does not qualify the parent taking on a doctor's roll as medical prescriber and medicating their children using drugs prescribed for personal use as abuse.

If your definition of physical abuse included "acts or circumstances that threaten the child with harm or create a substantial risk of harm to the child's health or welfare" which is a definition in many states then giving prescription medication to a child without a Dr.'s consent is abuse and should be reported (a local incident of a parent being arrested for dosing her toddler with Prozac to "help her sleep" comes to mind). In some states parental substance abuse includes "selling, distributing, or giving drugs or alcohol to a child" which is grouped with making and selling drugs in the presence of children.

Defining a specific act as abuse has nothing to do with Kitty Genovese, it would be more of a bystander affect if multiple people saw the mother dosing her child and each person thought the other was going to report the abuse.

If this trainer stepped to the side and one day the parent overdoses her child, and the child falls off her horse and dies it is likely the trainer would be held partially responsible for a failure to report her prior knowledge.

Calamber

Sep. 16, 2007, 11:10 AM

Xanax is a controlled substance, you will be held liable if she injures herself as a result of the drug and it is now known via this public bulletin board that you were informed. There is no nice way to make this woman own up to what is most certainly child abuse. Drop the client to protect yourself and let the woman know why and report her. You are minding your business and the reason why she is so defensive is she clearly knows that what she is doing is illegal at best.

Huntertwo

Sep. 16, 2007, 11:10 AM

Are you going to monitor every client and play Dr. whether they should be taking or not taking a medication?

There are plenty of over the counter Meds. that affect me more than .25 mg of Xanex, which does nothing for me, except get the knots of of my stomach.

How about Nyquil? Are you going to tell your client they can't ride if they have a cold?

Benadryl - Again are you going to tell your client they can't ride because they have allergies?

Both these meds make me feel more out of it, than a mild tranquilizer.

Are you going to monitor if someone took their Coumidin, so they don't bleed horribly if they get a cut?

Are you going to monitor if someone took their High blood pressure medicine, so they don't have a stroke and fall off?

If you don't play Dr. with your other client's, what gives you the right to call Family Services and like another poster mentioned, ruin a family's life?

If you saw her daughter falling down, slurring words, riding horribly to the point of getting hurt that is a different story. I'd still only talk to BOTH parents.

S1969

Sep. 16, 2007, 11:43 AM

If this trainer stepped to the side and one day the parent overdoses her child, and the child falls off her horse and dies it is likely the trainer would be held partially responsible for a failure to report her prior knowledge.

Report what? To whom? You don't know anything. The parent may be providing a legal, doctor's prescribed medication for a specific identified condition. To whom do you think you need to report this?

It is reasonable to ask that ALL your clients provide you with notification of medical conditions and/or medications that may affect their ability to perform safely. I think I provided that information (medical conditions, at least) to my trainer and also for my daughter. Asking for a doctor's note is beyond reasonable unless you do it for all your clients. And for what purpose would you do this anyway?? The parent of a student < 18 is waiving you of responsibilty whether they disclose everything on the form or not - if they voluntarily omit information it is not your responsibility to sneak through their bags to see if there are other conditions you are not aware of.

If you don't trust the situation, drop the client and protect your reputation - obviously the student taking drugs not prescribed for her in order to gain a competitive edge does not make you look good.

rebecca yount

Sep. 16, 2007, 11:57 AM

You people have gone from wondering whether there is a prescription, not knowing the exact age of the individual, basically GOSSIPPING about what a parent is doing--to, as Calamber said: "There is no nice way to make this woman own up to what is most certainly child abuse." EXCUSE me? This is way out of line. What a crock.

It is not even known (as if it was necessarily anyone's business) whether this is a prescription medication for the "teen". The circumstances under which the medication is given are not known. The circumstances under which the OP was informed (or was it gossip?) as to the medication are not known. According to info provided by the OP, the person is a "teen" which could even include age 19, in which case certain states' laws would not even apply.

Each state does have its own laws as to what constitutes child abuse and neglect, as well as WHO are MANDATED reporters. We don't even know in which state the described situation exists. But for the sake of discussion, let's look at Virginia's law on mandated reporters:

From the Virginia state code: § 63.2-1509.
A. The following persons who, in their professional or official capacity, have reason to suspect that a child is an abused or neglected child, shall report the matter immediately to the local department of the county or city wherein the child resides or wherein the abuse or neglect is believed to have occurred or to the Department's toll-free child abuse and neglect hotline:

1. Any person licensed to practice medicine or any of the healing arts;

2. Any hospital resident or intern, and any person employed in the nursing profession;

3. Any person employed as a social worker;

4. Any probation officer;

5. Any teacher or other person employed in a public or private school, kindergarten or nursery school;

6. Any person providing full-time or part-time child care for pay on a regularly planned basis;

7. Any mental health professional;

8. Any law-enforcement officer;

9. Any mediator eligible to receive court referrals pursuant to § 8.01-576.8;

10. Any professional staff person, not previously enumerated, employed by a private or state-operated hospital, institution or facility to which children have been committed or where children have been placed for care and treatment;

11. Any person associated with or employed by any private organization responsible for the care, custody or control of children;

12. Any person who is designated a court-appointed special advocate pursuant to Article 5 (§ 9.1-151 et seq.) of Chapter 1 of Title 9.1;

13. Any person, over the age of 18 years, who has received training approved by the Department of Social Services for the purposes of recognizing and reporting child abuse and neglect; and

14. Any person employed by a local department as defined in § 63.2-100 who determines eligibility for public assistance.

Here's the definition of child abuse and neglect, from Virginia state code § 18.2-371.1.

A. Any parent, guardian, or other person responsible for the care of a child under the age of 18 who by willful act or omission or refusal to provide any necessary care for the child's health causes or permits serious injury to the life or health of such child shall be guilty of a Class 4 felony. For purposes of this subsection, "serious injury" shall include but not be limited to (i) disfigurement, (ii) a fracture, (iii) a severe burn or laceration, (iv) mutilation, (v) maiming, (vi) forced ingestion of dangerous substances, or (vii) life-threatening internal injuries.

B. 1. Any parent, guardian, or other person responsible for the care of a child under the age of 18 whose willful act or omission in the care of such child was so gross, wanton and culpable as to show a reckless disregard for human life shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

In Virginia, then, there MAY be cause for concern IF the person is under 18 and IF she is injured seriously. The OP is NOT a mandated reporter in Virginia. The OP may WISH to report something but I think she should think very carefully about that.

If the OP is concerned (which she may not be) that abuse or neglect may be taking place, she should check the state code for the state in which she "trains" or teaches the teen, to determine if she feels what is occurring falls within the statutes for that particular state.

FlashGordon

Sep. 16, 2007, 11:58 AM

Don't know the ins and outs of the law but just wanted to provide this experience:

I did ride with a trainer for awhile who, when I started with her, had me fill out a standard liability form which also included emergency contact info, etc. There was also a portion about medical conditions and medications needed/taken for said condition.

I found it a little bit odd at first but in the end saw the value in it-- I have asthma and it often limits my performance when riding, and I can have severe attacks that require immediate medical attention and have warranted ambulance rides, etc. Providing her with the info meant that if I did have an attack while riding, and couldn't effectively communicate to her, she'd know what to do... where my medications were and what action to take.

Obviously I only included the medical conditions/medications that I found relevant to my horsey habit.... she didn't need to know my whole medical background.

She said she implemented the idea when she had a student who got stung by a bee and had a severe reaction. She'd had no idea the kid was allergic and the whole thing was a mess.

So while a client can surely decline the request to provide medical info, I don't see anything weird/wrong with a trainer asking for it... just like any other sports team that requires a physical and doctor's note....

Ghazzu

Sep. 16, 2007, 12:09 PM

Are you going to monitor every client and play Dr. whether they should be taking or not taking a medication?

The difference, Huntertwo, between your examples of OTC drugs and *prescribed* drugs, such as coumadin, is that we're talking about someone being administered a prescription medication without the prescription.

Other people more knowledgeable about how lawsuits and insurance liabilities have commented, and my feeling is that the safest route for the op is to simply drop the client.

Calamber

Sep. 16, 2007, 12:29 PM

As she had asked the parent about the medication and she received a MYOB, seems somewhat indicative that all is not on the up and up. I will repeat, this is a controlled substance and at the very least she would need to provide a doctor's note, since she became so defensive one would have to surmise that one does not exist. Do you need a state law to come to the defense of a child?

TheOrangeOne

Sep. 16, 2007, 12:33 PM

A panic attack is to your head as an asthma attack is to your lungs.

No one would ever tell someone who has asthma to suck it up and take a few deep breaths.

It's not nerves, not by a long long shot. Someone else described it well. Shaking, impending sense of doom, inability to move normally, etc etc. Unless you have had something similar, I think it's rude and really insensitive to fault someone for treating an actual medical condition. Do you tell people with depression that their prozac is just an easy way out? I'm really suprised that people could behave that way.

Now, that said, giving xanax for plain nerves is not a good idea, but it's not really any of your business.

Pommederue

Sep. 16, 2007, 12:37 PM

Thank you for your replies.

deltawave

Sep. 16, 2007, 01:29 PM

It's not nerves, not by a long long shot.

Where do people get off diagnosing and recommending treatment based on fourth-hand information?

There are plenty of over the counter Meds. that affect me more than .25 mg of Xanex, which does nothing for me, except get the knots of of my stomach.

How about Nyquil? Are you going to tell your client they can't ride if they have a cold?

Benadryl - Again are you going to tell your client they can't ride because they have allergies?

Both these meds make me feel more out of it, than a mild tranquilizer.

Are you going to monitor if someone took their Coumidin, so they don't bleed horribly if they get a cut?

Are you going to monitor if someone took their High blood pressure medicine, so they don't have a stroke and fall off?

Just because a prescription drug does nothing for YOU doesn't mean it's OK for someone to hand out to their kid. And hello, all of the monitoring, etc. you mentioned is the responsibility of the prescribing practitioner, and that only applies if the proper patient is taking the drug in question. :rolleyes:

Glad to hear you are getting to the bottom of the situation, Pommederue. I think it's a can of worms that's well worth opening. Good luck! :)

TheOrangeOne

Sep. 16, 2007, 02:18 PM

I suppose that could have been phrased better.

Panic attacks/anxiety disorder are not nerves.

I have no idea what this girl has, and as I said in the last line of my post, giving xanax for plain nerves is a bad idea for all the reasons stated.

MacknCody

Sep. 16, 2007, 02:44 PM

Gee after all that it was the girls Rx.... maybe you should just ask first or better yet leave it alone, some people like their privacy. :rolleyes:

Sure hope your student doesn't read this thread, I'd be madder than hell.

Huntertwo

Sep. 16, 2007, 02:55 PM

Where do people get off diagnosing and recommending treatment based on fourth-hand information?

Just because a prescription drug does nothing for YOU doesn't mean it's OK for someone to hand out to their kid. And hello, all of the monitoring, etc. you mentioned is the responsibility of the prescribing practitioner, and that only applies if the proper patient is taking the drug in question. :rolleyes:

Glad to hear you are getting to the bottom of the situation, Pommederue. I think it's a can of worms that's well worth opening. Good luck! :)

Exactly, it sounds like this mom has given it to her daughter in the past and I'm sure knows more than the JURY on this board what affect it has on her daughter.

"The prescribing practitioner", of course - NOT the trainer.

Edited to add: Just read that it is the daughter's prescription after 6 pages of judging. :)

Ghazzu

Sep. 16, 2007, 03:12 PM

Exactly, it sounds like this mom has given it to her daughter in the past and I'm sure knows more than the JURY on this board what affect it has on her daughter.

"The prescribing practitioner", of course - NOT the trainer.

Edited to add: Just read that it is the daughter's prescription after 6 pages of judging. :)

However, in the absence of said "prescribing practitioner", it still wouldn't matter much to me whether Mom knew it would knock the kid for a loop or no; she'd still be out of line for administering it.

deltawave

Sep. 16, 2007, 03:50 PM

Boiling it down to its essence, much as the thought of something to "steady the nerves" has its appeal, I personally wouldn't want anything dulling my reactions even minimally when I was about to go out and jump fences. Even properly-prescribed, judiciously dosed and properly administered benzos are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE USED while driving, operating machinery, etc...I would argue that operating a horse falls into the same category. :)

cbv

Sep. 16, 2007, 04:28 PM

question the future of this relationship anyway.

Although perhaps ones heart was in the right place, this had been a discussion of obviously sensitive medical information of a client, a minor, on a public bulletin board, opening the mother and the daughter up to public ridicule without knowing all the facts.

Although no names have been mentioned, it often happens that people find these discussions and figure out who is being discussed. It sounds like trust on both sides is probably shot.

EqLuvr

Sep. 16, 2007, 06:20 PM

I thought someone looked up the prescribing info and said it wasn't indicated for teens. U sure mom is telling the truth? I mean do you think she'll really say "no, it's mine"....

I would ask an attorney to protect yourself and kick the client to the curb if she can't produce evidence from a doctor.

Mostly though, I can't believe some of the comments on this thread.

Wow, mind your own business, mind your own business, blah blah blah

It IS her business. Trainer is the one who would suffer the consequences if poopsiekins fell off her horse and was seriously injured. Whose insurance ~~wouldn't~~ pay if she was sued based on prior knowledge of the Xanax use? Trainer's insurance...! Sorry, their money isn't worth the risk.

Also, I realize that I am going to be unpopular by going against the grain, but popping a Xanax to "take the edge off" by a minor is a little over the top, don't you think?

Why not a few puffs off a joint instead? Maybe everyone at the show can share!!!

Uh, a little clarification --> an adult/minor with a prescription for anxiety medication is a hella difference from a mom giving their daughter Xanax at a horse show for "nerves."

Try parenting and teach some life coping skills.

probably too much effort for this desperate housewife though!!!

FancyFree

Sep. 16, 2007, 08:00 PM

Adamantane

Sep. 16, 2007, 08:48 PM

I honestly don't blame OP for apparently deleting the original post and question.

While this thread has remained civil and short of a trainwreck, OP has received and acknowledged the information she sought.

At this point the remaining discussion seems to be between those who think that further 'executive action' is called for and those who are appalled that anyone might wish to expand the issue to expand the effort far beyond what the OP requested. (OP to her vast credit as a trainer with the typical commonsensical and proportionate view, many posts ago already said that calling in the marshals on some kind of slash-and-burn crusade was beyond the pale.)

From my perspective, the good news is that there were many factual posters who thrashed through the specifics of the therapeutic modality in question, as well as the liability issues. COTH is a fount of knowledge and information.

My personal take on the bad news is a matter of record, so I won't rehash it. I have middle-aged (non-riding) friends in the former East Germany with whom I will share the sentiments expressed, to learn their reaction.

Since the thread remained civil, I expect the moderators will probably leave it open, so when my own trainer gets back in town I'll post her take on the debate if she chooses to offer one from a trainer's perspective.

For the record in the name of full disclosure, I personally have once or twice tried various muscle relaxants, anti-inflammatories and even DEA-scheduled pain meds at one time or another during lessons and private riding forays to deal with pain and, once or twice, anxiety. (It should go without saying that I obtained these through not only reasonable but also formally 'lawful' Rx channels.:D) In my experience, things go much better with mitigated pain and inflammation. Anxiety takes care of itself with the confidence borne of practice and growing positive experiences.

Long ago, based on private advice that did not involve my present trainer, I had a couple of drinks before riding, though I've never done so before a lesson then or now because it seemed intuitive to me that the result would not be worthwhile. Probably our ancient foxhunting friends on balance weren't much off the mark, if my limited personal experience counts.

Thanks for frank honesty to everyone who participated in this thread, whatever their views. It was an education to me and, I am sure, to many.:yes:

Utah

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:25 PM

[QUOTE=EqLuvr;2686266

Also, I realize that I am going to be unpopular by going against the grain, but popping a Xanax to "take the edge off" by a minor is a little over the top, don't you think?

Why not a few puffs off a joint instead? Maybe everyone at the show can share!!!

Uh, a little clarification --> an adult/minor with a prescription for anxiety medication is a hella difference from a mom giving their daughter Xanax at a horse show for "nerves."

Try parenting and teach some life coping skills.

probably too much effort for this desperate housewife though!!![/QUOTE]

And you know this kid isn't in therapy how?

And seeing as how you also have noooo idea the level of the kids problems, I wouldn't comment on what is or isn't over the top. A little or a lot of PTSD is a lot different than being a little nervous. And therapy takes longer than five minutes, so you don't know where they might be on the curve.

FancyFree

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:46 PM

Anxiety takes care of itself with the confidence borne of practice and growing positive experiences.

Maybe this teen isn't suffering from mere "anxiety". I would assume, since she's being prescribed medication, that she has a panic/anxiety disorder that "practice and experience" will not alleviate. A panic attack isn't going to go away because you have some confidence building experiences.

Ugh. I'm outta this thread.

horse-loverz

Sep. 16, 2007, 09:53 PM

Also, I realize that I am going to be unpopular by going against the grain, but popping a Xanax to "take the edge off" by a minor is a little over the top, don't you think?

Why not a few puffs off a joint instead? Maybe everyone at the show can share!!!

Uh, a little clarification --> an adult/minor with a prescription for anxiety medication is a hella difference from a mom giving their daughter Xanax at a horse show for "nerves."

Try parenting and teach some life coping skills.

probably too much effort for this desperate housewife though!!!

Ummmmm... OKayyy comparing the girl taking HER prescribed Xanax to an illegal drug.. not even in the same ballpark... comparing a case of the nerves with an anxiety disorder that warrents a Xanax Rx.. also not the same ballpark... and how do you know the mother isn't parenting and teaching life coping skills... it's kind of hard to learn those coping skills while in the grips of a panic attack.. This is VERY harsh and VERY judgemental of someone you don't even know their history.. the family... anything... Pediatricians will not prescribe Benzo's to kids.. heck most won't even prescibe anti-depressants for kids.. so the fact that this kid HAS an RX for Xanax means she is under the care of a Psychiatrist.

Again I have a very young child 6yo that is being treated for an anxiety disorder... she is learning coping techniques.. but that doesn't mean she is always able to use them... She is just learning that some of her anxiety and fears are irrational but even then.. she just can't always stop her attacks. My child needs her daily meds to help keep her on an even keel.. and to know her before and after meds... well even she says she feels better on them.. So I would come down a little of you're high horse (to keep it horse related;)) and not be so quick to judge this mother. I know I would be livid after all I have been through and am doing for my daugher with all her MD appts.. etc to have someone judge me and accuse me of taking the "easy way out" .. because I can assure you NOTHING about any of my daughers ongoing treatment has been easy!!!

deltawave

Sep. 16, 2007, 10:01 PM

so the fact that this kid HAS an RX for Xanax means she is under the care of a Psychiatrist.

THAT is a very big assumption.

mrsbwayne

Sep. 16, 2007, 10:06 PM

I've given it to my daughter. We hate to fly, so I get a prescription for generic Xanax before we fly anywhere. I didn't give her any until she was about 16 though. She really doesn't like the dull 'who cares' feeling you get from it, but that's way better than being stressed about the plane falling out of the sky.

It's not like dropping anything 'hard' or whatever, it just gives you a dull feeling. I don't know how to explain it. But it doesn't make you a zombie. At least mine doesn't, I got the .25 dosage. Seriously, it just takes the edge off, that's it. I have taken more than the recommended dosage myself, just to get a little more 'relaxed.' It was fine. I don't see why a person couldn't ride with a low dose. It does help. Although if my kid was that stressed out over showing, I would probably have her not show. She has family in Japan, so we have to fly over there a lot.

Sarina

EqLuvr

Sep. 16, 2007, 10:39 PM

For those of you who have mounted your high horses, have a great ride - I hope it's a beauteous 17 hand dutch gelding...

You misread my post.

I said there was a difference between having a prescription and NOT HAVING A PRESCRIPTION.

WITHOUT A PRESCRIPTION, having poopsiekins pop a Xanax at the horse show once in a while for "nerves" is.... (in addition to being ridiculous and a total cop out) ..... illegal and inappropriate at best.

What is the difference (WITHOUT A PRESCRIPTION) between one Xanax for nerves and a....

Puff from a joint
or
Shot of Jack Daniels

Same objective, same effect.

Those of you that just mounted the very tall dutch gelding may feel free to canter depart.

p.s. It's a horse show, not the Battle of Berlin. (exception: people who have actually been DIAGNOSED with anxiety disorder!)

Beasmom

Sep. 16, 2007, 11:04 PM

I guess I'd WANT to know if a student of mine suffered from an anxiety disorder. I would not push such a person to show, and I'd want to educate myself about the disorder -- and the best ways to help student cope with it.

That would be appropriate, wouldn't it?

Kementari

Sep. 17, 2007, 02:15 AM

I thought someone looked up the prescribing info and said it wasn't indicated for teens. U sure mom is telling the truth? I mean do you think she'll really say "no, it's mine"....

Just because it hasn't been FDA-approved for kids doesn't mean it isn't prescribed for them. I've worked with kids with some pretty serious mental issues (of the chemical imbalance sort), and you'd be amazed the drugs some kids are prescribed - by knowledgeable, well-respected doctors, I might add. The fact is that MOST drugs aren't approved for children, because of the cost involved in doing the trials for the FDA. Ritalin isn't approved for children under 6, yet plenty of them take it. Even albuterol isn't approved for young children, yet is widely used (*I* took it as a young child!).

I would ask an attorney to protect yourself and kick the client to the curb if she can't produce evidence from a doctor.How far are you going to take this? I mean, if I have a sore knee and take ibuprofen before I ride, then conceivably I could end up getting/worsening an injury because the pain wasn't there (or wasn't strong enough) to tell me to stop - should my trainer require me to to get a note if I've taken an OTC anti-inflammatory? You do realize that medical records are confidential, and that you are not required to share them all with your trainer, right? Actually, in some states/places, it may well be illegal for the trainer to require such a thing (ESPECIALLY to require it from just one client).

Uh, a little clarification --> an adult/minor with a prescription for anxiety medication is a hella difference from a mom giving their daughter Xanax at a horse show for "nerves."

Try parenting and teach some life coping skills.

probably too much effort for this desperate housewife though!!!Well, since the OP has posted that it IS the child's prescription, why are you assuming that there isn't a valid medical reason for it?

I have a few friends & family members with MAJOR chemical imbalance issues. Some of them are medicated all the time, some are PRN, some not at all or very rarely. These people work CONSTANTLY in order to live their lives in ways the rest of us take for granted. On their behalf(s), I cannot stand the constant implications in society that if people would just "buck up" or "learn to cope" they would be fine. Some people cannot just "buck up," and plenty of people would NOT be fine without serious medications and/or therapy - and you can't necessarily tell who those people are by looking at them (or reading about them).

If the child's doctor prescribed her an anti-anxiety medication, it is between her, her family, and the doctor. It is certainly possible that the doctor prescribed it for the wrong reasons, but none of us have any right or grounds on which to judge that. It is also possible that the child has an actual anxiety disorder that either she is medicated for with another drug on a day-to-day basis OR that she manages without drugs except in high-stress situations, and she cannot just "cope" with it, no matter how good her parents are.

Have watched the afore-mentioned friends and family struggle with such issues, I am always reminded, "There but for fortune..."

[The last couple of paragraphs there are more in general than to the quoted post... I just realized that that wasn't terribly clear! ;)]

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 17, 2007, 09:12 AM

The attitude that using this stuff ( Xanax, whatever) is OK because a Dr prescribed it is a joke.
Just ask your Dr for it and you'll get a prescription, just like in the commercials.

I recently had some health problems and had to see many specialists. Three of them offered anti depressants or tranqs without even asking if I felt I needed them or had any symptoms that warranted medication. They seem to just assume that because I was under stress I'd want them. And these weren't Dr's in the mental health area.

If you get nervous riding then find another sport. If you have panic attacks that's another thing although I was asked repeatedly if I had them. It seemed like they wanted me to say I had them so they could justifiy the meds.

What really worries me is all the impaired folks driving. Don't want to meet many of you on the road.

deltawave

Sep. 17, 2007, 09:18 AM

The attitude that using this stuff ( Xanax, whatever) is OK because a Dr prescribed it is a joke.
Just ask your Dr for it and you'll get a prescription, just like in the commercials.

Did YOU ask for it and receive it, just like in the commercials? Or are you you extrapolating one person's experience to the entire medical profession in general?

mrsbwayne

Sep. 17, 2007, 10:29 AM

Did YOU ask for it and receive it, just like in the commercials? Or are you you extrapolating one person's experience to the entire medical profession in general?

Xanax is easy to get. I haven't seen a doctor in years. I just keep calling the last guy I got a prescription from and say, I'm leaving in a month, can I get some Xanax, and he calls it in. He usually gives me 10, last time I asked for 20 and got it. This guy is in a different state from me now. But... I only call a couple times a year and get it, not every month or anything. And they're CHEAP, like $1 a pill. I don't have insurance for pills.

I think if a person just takes one they'd be okay, I usually take two, but when I started, I would take more than that because I really hate to fly, and I'm not driving on them or anything. They're really not 'heavy' drugs.

Sarina

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"

Sep. 17, 2007, 10:55 AM

Oh. I thought maybe this had morphed into more stick horsie art.

Wedonit

Sep. 17, 2007, 11:17 AM

Is anyone with me in the camp that I seriously don't care what other people do with their children, up to and including giving them Xanax?

For real -- could not care less.

deltawave

Sep. 17, 2007, 03:17 PM

They're really not 'heavy' drugs.

If you say so. :) The DEA would kind of disagree, being that they're a controlled substance along with valium and all the other benzos. Nobody gets it from me unless I know them, the reason why, and who else is writing their prescriptions.

Is anyone with me in the camp that I seriously don't care what other people do with their children, up to and including giving them Xanax?

Fortunately for the children she teaches, the OP obviously DOES care.

RiddleMeThis

Sep. 17, 2007, 03:27 PM

Is anyone with me in the camp that I seriously don't care what other people do with their children, up to and including giving them Xanax?

For real -- could not care less.

I am with you all the way. I am also in the camp that every drug should be legal with limitations like alcohol. And yes I do mean cocaine heroin you name it. Would I do any of it? No, but if you want to screw up your body go ahead.

Editted to alter an offensie word

IveGotRhythm

Sep. 17, 2007, 03:35 PM

I am with you all the way. I am also in the camp that every drug should be legal with limitations like alcohol. And yes I do mean cocaine heroin you name it. Would I do any of it? No, but if you want to fuck up your body go ahead.

:eek:WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?

What people give their children affects us all, in that these children are our future. YES, it matters.

And I do not want to drive on roads, do business with, or otherwise interact with people who do "legal " (or otherwise) amounts of heroine, cocaine, etc...

RiddleMeThis

Sep. 17, 2007, 03:38 PM

You do it with people who drink alcohol.

Wedonit

Sep. 17, 2007, 03:47 PM

I'm just saying, I've got 99 problems and that's not one. I think everyone needs to settle down and mind their own business.

IveGotRhythm

Sep. 17, 2007, 03:48 PM

You do it with people who drink alcohol.

Well, then, let's make THAT illegal too.

Oh, yeah, that was called prohibition, and it didn't work.

Seriously, I was a bartender for a few more years than I care to count. In the process, I met my share of drug addicts, too.

Although I've seen many respectable people stop by for a drink after work, I've never met the drug addict that had ONE casual "hit" before going home. You seriously cannot compare a beer with addictive drugs such as cocaine and heroine.

Sadly, I speak from (thankfully not personal) experience.:no:

Adamantane

Sep. 17, 2007, 10:05 PM

In principle and in practice, my own nearly lifelong libertarian bonafides are second to none. Had I been a rider as long as I have been commited to personal freedom and individual responsibility, who knows, I might the one giving weekly lessons to my accomplished young trainer rather than the other way around. ;) (Not really. As Clint Eastwood's character Dirty Harry Callahan once sagely commented, 'A man's gotta know his own limitations. :D)

That said, while I've changed my opinion on none of it -- as the late activist Peter McWilliams once entitled his book, "Ain't Nobody's Business If You Do: The Absurdity of Consensual Crimes in Our Free Country" -- there are genuine and legitimate issues which make the crisp iconoclastic rhetoric less than satisfactory.

There are parents who abuse the trust of raising their children. There are all too many people who have allowed substance abuse to slide their lives out of control. There does come a point where bystanders cannot simply be passive, stand aside and watch a predictable and preventable human disaster unfold. Just because there are busybody know-it-alls and outrageous nanny state laws on the books that offend civilized principles and the constitutional order of a free society does not mean that there are no substantive problems in our world that require measured and adult intervention from time to time. Rhetorically brushing them aside does not make them go away.

Yes, I, too, think anybody who plops money down on the counter ought to be able to obtain whatever they wish. But having done so, they must manage and use it responsibly. If they don't, they must be willing and able to bear all the consequences.

A few months ago a guy whose whole family regularly rides at my barn decided to go have fun with them one afternoon, although he'd been on a horse maybe half a dozen times in his life. The horse blew himself up while being saddled and the guy forgot to fully cinch up the girth before he went out into the field with his wife and his daughters. Unfortunately, nobody noticed. He cantered across a field, the saddle suddenly slipped and rotated, and the man -- he is a big guy -- came off landing him in the hospital and putting him out of work for about three weeks. His wife and daughters were very upset and he wasn't exactly a happy camper himself. Hasn't been on a horse since.

There are several ways in which we could look at this preventable accident.

Yes, he was a responsible adult and made a simple negligent error that landed him in the hospital. We can say, well, he screwed up and he paid the price. "Rider error" as someone once coldly said in summing up the late Christopher Reeve's horrific accident that ultimately led to Reeve's premature death. Technically and causally, I suppose, that is formally true. But it is a pretty inhumane and uncivilized way to assess the circumstance. Nobody was wanton and reckless in either case, but there was a bad outcome which theoretically was preventable.

Certainly if there were an government "girth checker" official at every barn, or a statutory requirement that before departing on a ride, it is mandated and obligatory on someone to verify that each girth is checked, each helmet is in place, etc. -- or if there were a government "position and balance commissar" to ensure that nobody could continue on a course if they weren't 100% perfect in their posture -- then neither the fellow at the barn nor Mr. Reeve might ever have come to bad ends. Assuming that these checkers and commissars actually did what was expected of them and were effectual, that is. (A very big if based on history, e.g., September 11, 2001.)

In the real and practical world there are (or should be) common sense and reasonable tradeoffs between the "too bad, tough s***" and "we-must-haff-order" authoritarian extremes.

What is expected of civilized human in free societies beings falls in the middle, somewhere between utter indifference and external controls by overweening interventionist governmental force.

We don't pretend there is no potential problem, nor do we summon the army or federal police into our private lives (at absurd cost both economic and social) to [supposedly] guarantee there is no problem.

In the case of the guy at the barn, it would have been reasonable and proper for anybody to say, "Hey, guy, did you cinch up that girth?" and if he ignored them and they thought maybe he hadn't done it, to say to his wife or daughters, "Hey, are you sure Fred cinched up his girth?" In the case of Mr. Reeve, maybe personally to yell, "Get your butt back!" as he rode that day or, if he were chronically prone to forgetting, during his other CC rides previously.

In fact, if anyone had an inkling that there might have been a problem on either count, to my way of thinking, it would have been unconscionable and indefensible as a decent human being not to have said something of that sort or at least to have gotten onesself and others out of harm's way if nobody listened and responded.

The key thing here is individual reponsibility and accountability for which there simply is no viable, practical third-party substitute. The only civilized alternative is well-meaning benevolent advice.

Same thing with this thread about the young woman taking a tranquilizer the better to manage her jumping class.

The OP who was her trainer, was right to wonder about the situation, not just because of legal liability which is an artifact of the crazy legal environment in the US, but far more importantly because she did not want to see harm come to anyone -- her student, the student's horse, other competitors or horses, officials or spectators -- in the event that the young woman was perhaps impaired and miscued.

Anything less would have been irresponsible in human terms -- forget the legal bits. Anything more aggressive, coercive and intrusive would have been inappropriate and incompatible with the fundamental premise upon which this nation and other free societies were built, namely that people capable of doing so are and ought to be responsible for themelves and the consequences of their actions.

Doctor's prescription or not, when one consumes something that potentially can effect one's capability to safely manage a situation into which one places onesself, one must have the requisite knowledge and experience and accept accountability and responsibility for the consequences.

If one does that, it doesn't much matter what brought the circumstances of consuming it about.

If one does not, it doesn't much matter what brought the circumstances of consuming it about.