Best LARGE Barn/Horses Dog

[dressagetraks]

I'm considering which dog to acquire for my project farm. Points to consider:

Large. I like large, and large also serves protection functions, keeps up with horses, etc. I do not want a small animated muff. I don't want yapyapyapyapyapyap. I want something with a "you're on my turf, and you'd better have a darned good reason" BARK.

Protective. I am a single woman. My aging single mother lives in my back yard. We'd like something that, if Jack the Ripper comes to call one day, would be some help in defense. For the same reason, and just for my personality, I'd like something that doesn't view the whole wide world as an immediate friend. Aloof for legit strangers, a bit of a threat for the less-legit. I don't have kids, never will, and don't care if the dog snacks on stray kids.

Pretty. Aesthetic points aren't the most crucial, granted, but I want a face I'd like to see every day for the next many, many years. This point has removed the Mastiff from consideration. :)

Horses. Must protect the horses, not chase, pester, etc. Must realize that the horses are part of the responsibility for a good guard dog. I breed and will often have foals. Must be foal-friendly or foal-neutral.

It will be trained, and I have friends both local and internet who are serious dog trainers and will be there for help/advice.

So far, my leading candidates on preliminary breed research seem to be Great Pyrenees (but how many hours a day do they need to be combed?) and German Shepherds. One of my dog friends breeds Shepherds, and she has waxed eloquent on the positives and negatives. I'm aware of everything that has been done wrong to them by inbreeding, but could avoid this with her help, and she maintains that if you select most carefully and train right, a good GSD is the ultimate.

Thoughts? Other breed suggestions? What are your awesome farm dogs? How do they get along with your horses? What dogs have you have bad experiences with on a horse farm? Also, do you have preferences for male/female (assume that the dog is spayed/neutered), and why?

[mayhew]

My aging single mother lives in my back yard. )

Bloody h*ll, you could at least let her into the house. :winkgrin: Just kidding.

Until you said no mastiffs, I was thinking that they would be perfect. A friend of mine lives on a fairly remote horse farm and has two. They are exactly what you describe... but true, they aren't pretty and the drool is overwhelming. One blows spit bubbles. This person also has a german shepherd, and it serves the same function, but the mastifs are much more reliable around guests.

[MissBri]

HONESTLY??????

Go get a large mixed breed puppy. My last dog Tara was an Irish Setter and we think Great Dane Lab mix. She was the sweetest, best dog. Her photo...
http://www.equinesitegallery.com/MissBri/LgTaraSylvester.jpg

Tara crossed the bridge in Mid July

I now share my humble abode with Josie - a GSD lab cross almost four month old puppy - we think she may have more mixes in there too. My vet indicated that Josie will mature to be over 85 pounds. She is just total enthusiasm, smart as a whip, and is responding remarkably to horse/kitty training.

I love big dogs!

[Simkie]

IF you can make them toe the line as a puppy, a Ridgeback sounds very good for your needs. They are very loyal, loving dogs that will protect you and the horses. Mine are good with the barn cats, barn dogs, barn MICE (Riana found a baby mouse and brought it to me carefully) and the horses.

They are DIFFICULT puppies, though, and they will certainly test you until they grow up a bit. You need to lay down the law and not let them cross whatever line you've drawn in the sand. They have the advantage of not blowing coat twice a year. Here is my older female: http://inlinethumb59.webshots.com/17850/1122038395048290005S600x600Q85.jpg (http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1122038395048290005mZWhzT) She does not like the cold, and wears clothes and boots to go to the barn in the winter. She is pretty laid back, but her little sister is more of a site hound and is ALWAYS ready to go. Koa loves to just RUN when I take her out on the back 40, but stays on the property and comes when called. I have females because I think they're less needy than males.

[Showjumper28]

We have always had Akitas, they are fabulous, great with kids and very loyal.

[CanTango1]

hmm, A german Shepherd..... Well....

Ok I am deathly afraid of ANY dog I dont know and this I attribute to the fact that a Shepherd decided I looked like a pretty fun chew toy.

After Plastic surgery and the option for skin graphs ( gee thanks i would like more scars, uhh no thanks ) I wouldnt say they would be my first choice.

Its all preferance though, I prefer a more friendly dog, Labs,Goldens etc.

[mayhew]

Oh, and I'll probably get flamed to all get-out for this, but my awesome farm dog is a "goldendoodle." He is smart, doesn't bother the horses, cats, or chickens, sounds fierce to strangers when they're outside the door, then is friendly towards them once we let them in.

[BuddyRoo]

GSDs can be nice dogs when A) well bred and B) well trained.

However...my neighbors at the barn have 3. And they run away to chase deer. They chase my horses. They are idiots. And one of them was a very very expensive dog trained initially for home security (in Europe) that they ended up adopting when he had some issues. This thing KNOWS commands but since they rarely attempt to control their beasts, even the well trained one has actually jumped up and tried to bite my horses. He got rolled by one of my mares pretty well when he tried that crap.

Generally speaking though, GSD's can make great perimeter dogs. I'm personally not a fan--fuzzy undercoat is a mess in the house, I don't like the low hind end "look", I've yet to meet a well behaved one, etc.....But if you're committed to the training, that's a perfectly acceptable breed.

Personally, I love my lab. He's great with the horses. Great on the trails. Travels well. Well behaved. Has a scary scary bark, and though you might think that's he's a dopey "love everyone" type breed, I've unfortunately had the opportunity (more than once) to see him in action when I was threatened.

Once was with an old roommate. Guy had been living with me for 3-4 months. Dog loved him. One night, he got really really drunk. I came home. He grabbed me and was restraining me. My dog got right in the mix, growled....I told the guy he was hurting me and to let me go. He didn't, dog bit him. YAY DOG!

Another happened last weekend. Had my friend's little girl with me at my company picnic. My dog LOVES this kid. There had been a handful of dogs there throughout the day. But a man arrived with a dog that seemed a little off. At one point, the dog got between the little girl and me--my dog freaked...was ready to attack--until we go the little girl back with us.

So don't discount "friendly" breeds--when it counts, they can be quite protective. And the rest of the time, they are fun family pets.

[Giddy-up]

I am fond of Rotts & have been around some good ones at the barn (they obviously had the time & training put into them). I am not familiar enough with the breed itself to answer your other questions.

There is a Boxer at my current barn. He is a bit aloof/quiet & until I got to know him better I never knew how he was sizing me up (attack me or ignore me :D). He's very good around the horses, polite to the people & I feel "safe" with him there, but again he was well trained/handled. Although I don't know if I would call him a "large" dog.

[TBlitz]

You should go with the German Shepard or a GS mix. I think it's best if you get them as a puppy and introduce them to horses then.

I have a lab/shepard mix I picked up from a shelter when he was a pup. He was too adorable to leave, he would lay on your foot or in your lap if you were sitting. Now he lays down and puts his head in your lap to be pet. He decided that he belonged with the horses and spends alot of his time sun-bathing with them or sitting and watching to make sure nothing gets on HIS property. He loves the outdoors and needs a good amount of land to keep him happy. When I had my horse die at the end of the summer, he decided to stay outside with my other horse in the pasture all night so he wouldn't be alone.. instead of sleeping in a bed. He's always making rounds of the property to make sure nothing comes onto it and he barks and his hair raises if something does. The one bad thing about him is that he HAS to have an electric fence around the property because a regular fence won't hold him. He's successfully scared away other animals from the property and will bark at strangers until he makes sure we're okay with them. He's really good at protecting his people and horses, but doesn't really care to hang around any of our other "house" dogs (golden retriver and complete mixed breed which don't understand horses).

I also have a friend who's gone the Doberman route (she used to breed them) and they're great with horses if introduced as puppies and are VERY good guard dogs. I was really suprised how friendly they were to me after their "mom" started talking to me and how personable they could be since normally they're portrayed as fierce.

Most everyone else I know has picked up a young dog at a shelter and they've become great horse dogs. Some aren't "fiercly protective" though, so it's a crapshoot finding a guard dog that way. Some won't be as good with horses either depending how they've lived up til then.

[carolprudm]

I used to have a Pyr as a guardian for my sheep and goats, but his best bud was my old horse. He was never allowed in the house so he was never groomned unless he got into burrs. They tend to chill all day and patrol (and bark) at night. They will wander if not fenced.

[CiegoStar]

Everyone has given good advice, but let me put in a vote for Pyrenees, because this is a breed I can speak to with personal experience. My last barn had three of them. They were extremely friendly dogs and good with livestock, great with kids, very gentle. Because of their size they are naturally intimidating to ne’er-do-wells. They do not bark unless given good reason, and then it’s a pretty intimidating bark at that. They will keep coyotes off your land. They can be kept unleashed and will stay on the property. They will be aggressive if a bad situation arises, but generally their size and bark are enough to keep trouble at bay. And did I mention the puppies are ADORABLE? Like little polar bears! Yes, the coat may require more maintenance than you want, but I think overall they’re lovely, hardy dogs.

[tbtula]

I have a boxer. Great around horse, kids, all that stuff. But a new person approaching, he will let you know, and won't stop until YOU let him know it's ok. (then he's first in line to "meet" this person) I love em!!

[mayhew]

My only problem with the really, really big breeds is that they don't tend to live very long.

[Debbie]

I love Great Pyrs and grew up with them, but they have a huge drool factor. I can't stand drool! I currently have boxers and love them especially the short, tight coats that don't leave hair everywhere. (My "small" dog is a corgi, oy vey the hair.) I had a GSD that was great and think if you can get a well bred one, you can't beat them for exactly the job description you have.

[chicagogirl]

I agree with the GS cross suggestions. I adopted mine from a local shelter - for $55 he came fixed, micro-chipped, UTD on shots, and with a leash, collar and a bag of food. He's cuter than most dogs, ridiculously smart for a dog, and he has served as a good guard dog. He'll bark when someone comes over, but he's very friendly so my friends know it's just his way of saying it's his place. I think mine is crossed with a husky as he's a fence climber, and I understand that is a very common husky characteristic, but he never goes far. He will literally go over a 5 foot fence just to sit on the other side of it.

My dog is also very healthy with great hips (his abdomen was x-rayed when I thought he ate something). If you are going with a large breed, regardless of what the breed is, be very cautious about the hips and other genetic issues. It seems like that issue is affecting all large breeds and not just GS dogs anymore.

[JEN22]

I have a Doberman and he is the sweetest thing.... until you threaten something he views as his property. What I really truly love about the Doberman is the personality. Very loyal, loving and super smart! Sometimes too smart for me.....
He is very protective but he loves to play and would like nothing more than to be able to love everyone all day long. But until you have been properly introduced to a Dobe you should be very careful. They do tend to attach to one person and will defend that person to the death!! They seem intimidating but are really big babies. Wonderful in the house and they are not huge runners. Some daily exercise will suffice.
But here's the Doberman disclaimer...
If buying from a breeder meet both parents if possible and check references. Temperment is priority one for a Dobe breeder and they will assist you in your selcetion of a pup to suit your needs.
Maybe a Dobe rescue?
Once you go Dobe you'll never go back!

[Renae]

I worked for an Arab barn that also breeds Smooth Collies. Wonderful dogs aorudn the horses and their cattle as well. Smooth Collies are exactly the same as a Rough Collie (the long haired Lassie kind) except they have a medium coat like a German Shepherd. Without all the hair they are much lower maintenance grooming wise. Collies are a dual purpose type of stock dog, they both herd and guard, and they are very loyal to their master. And they are gorgeous, without all the hair you can see what an elegant long lined dog a Collie is :cool:

[honeychile]

A friend of mine has a Bernese Mountain Dog that fits your description. They are very beautiful dogs, and they tend to be quite protective of their family. She is also very well behaved around the horses. Have a look at them.

[Chief2]

I am a huge fan of German Shepherds, followed by Collies and Dobermans. However, there are some problems with the GS's, so for that reason, I would suggest going for ones with German or Czech lines (less hip problems/less personality variations), or going to a Shiloh Shepherd (USA breed) if your home insurance offers to cancel your policy if you get a GS. The Shiloh is just as large, also less hip problems, and good around friends and family members.

Collies: although I adore the long-haired variety, in brush country or on the trail, I think the short-hair version might be a better idea. Easier to remove the ticks. They are good farm dogs, will take care of your horses and your property, and can give a good woof. Not as quick to chow down an intruder as a GS, but they do make a statement.

Dobermans: can be a great choice, particularly if you get a female dobie. Gentle, friendly and kind to family members, they are great stalkers, intimidators and protectors. Like GS's they do a great job of patrolling the fenceline for you, and will probably leave the horses alone. Easy to train, retains what it learns, and will obey commands, making it a good trail companion prospect. The females like to remain closer to home than the males do. They are one heck of a good dog and a great protector and comfort for the woman living alone. Check insurance policy again before getting one.

If you gave me a choice of any of these, without having to worry about home insurance issues, I would rate them in the following order: German Shepherds, Dobermans, Collies.'

[GreekDressageQueen]

You might want to rethink the "I don't care if the dog snacks on stray kids" - the law is not always forgiving towards dogs attacking kids, even if it happens on your own property.

As far as getting a big, bad guard dog - I really don't think you need to focus on just the breed of dog, but get a female dog. My 90 pound Labrador is quite protective, has a very deep bark/growl, very territorial, and manages to scare away people, but is very good around the horses and is friendly and loving towards me and my friends. She is also black, which I know sounds weird but some people seem to be more afraid of black dogs than brown dogs. I even had one person ask if she was a pit bull because she was so big and black. Yes, well there are several stupid people who live in my town. :winkgrin:

Male dogs are not as "home-bound" and will tend to roam. They also have to pee everywhere so, whatever breed you decide I think you will be happiest with a female dog.

[Aggie4Bar]

Do not be fooled by a face like this: You're a sucker, aren't you? (http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e93/aggie4bar/Harley1.jpg)

Though she listens well, she's always ready to go: Can I get up now? Now? How 'bout now? (http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e93/aggie4bar/Harley2.jpg)

She is, I think, a Malinois/Rott cross. Could be the more obvious guess - GSD/Rott - but she has a lot of traits that are more consistent with what you'd get in the Malinois than the GSD.

Anyway - Most. Stubborn. Puppy. EVER!

Good Lord, I've wanted to kill her more times than I can count. Now nearing the age of 2, she's quite the tolerable companion. From about 6 months to 18 months though... :eek: :eek: :eek: And she's H-Y-P-E-R. It's not uncommon to hear me coo to her exuberant being, "Miss Harley! And what else does H stand for. Happy! Hyper!..." :lol: She's very joyous and animated. Silly girl.

Barn wise.... eh. She's well-behaved around the horses. However, she doesn't respect them. She thinks they're large dogs. Because she will cluelessly walk underneath them, between their legs, etc., all the while completely oblivious to danger, I don't often take her to the barn. Usually when she goes, it's for a playdate with the BO's pyr.

Although she does have a menacing bark (always accompanied with deep growl), she hasn't displayed a protective side. She's more apt to lick someone to death... no concept that someone could possible not love her. Horses are not immune. No nose goes unlicked (much to the surprise of many a horse! :lol:) when she walks down the aisle. If they reach down to sniff her, they get a kiss.

I've always had GSDs and would recommend them - from working dog breeders ONLY. If you get a cross, be particular about temperment. Harley suckered my brother at the Houston SPCA. He quickly found out he could not handle her, which is how she came to own me. She came with 10x more energy and a much larger stubborn streak than any GSD I've had or known. Makes life exciting. :winkgrin:

[SuperSpike]

Sounds like a Swissy would be perfect for you! :yes:

They're big (90 to 140lbs. depending on sex), very friendly, extremely loyal to their people, good around horses and other animals, super hardy (give them a place to stay dry or stay out of the extreme heat and they're fine being outside year round), healthy, long living, and very handsome to boot! I honestly think you'd be hard pressed to find a better looking dog and it sounds like we have similar tastes.

As far as protection, they are opposing enough to ward off most strangers and they will physically take action if their people are seriously threatened. That being said, they are very friendly, gentle dogs. For example, if someone new drives up and gets out of their car, if you just say hi to them or just don't seem concerned, they'll greet them with a wagging tail. They're also very good with kids.

They were bred to be farm dogs in the Swiss countryside - to provide protection for the family/livestock and to be a companion.

They are expensive because they're still pretty rare in the US (expect a price tag in the $1-2k range) but they are SO worth it. :yes:

Check them out: http://www.gsmdca.org/

[sunridge1]

I've always had GSD's. They are great perimeter dogs. Multiple dogs can induce pack metality wouldn't recommend having more than one loose. They are herding dogs so all of mine have had a tendency to want to "herd" the horses. They make great trail riding dogs. Trained and bred correctly GSD's make a great all around dog and an even better companion. You MUST be Alpha to them.
GP's are great also but that coat..... And it is not recommened that you clip them short because the coat works both ways, as a heater and an air conditioner.

Mary

[hackinaround]

I vote for a GSD

I have had GSD's on a horse farm my entire life. Out of a dozen or so dogs we only have had one that was a horse chaser he also was a kid biter, afraid of thunder, a genral mess.

I think when raised properly and acclimated to most situations you will find it hard pressed to find a more loyal ,smart and trustworthy dog.

I have one 6 year old fullbred that I love with all my heart and one mixed bred also a good dog. Both listen well and since they are of large size and bark NOBODY gets out of their cars when they are out and about!

Little do they know if they pose no threat they have a better chance of being licked to death vs bitten. :lol:

But to be honest the most protective l dog I own is a 6 month old Jack Russell X Fox Hound mix. She is a BEEEATCH!! Must be the Jack Russell Terrorist coming out.

[Bluey]

First, I would question the idea of a dog to scare intruders off.
Be sure it is a dog you can handle, is not more dangerous than an asset to your security and that of others that may come by.

To get a dog, be sure it is because YOU want the company of that dog and make it part of your life.

It is not the size or breed, but what you make of it in the raising and training of said dog.
I know many sweet black farm labs that are right down scary to strangers, so don't go by if a dog is a guarding breed, because any dog can be a good guardian and scary.

Every breed and mix will have in general good and bad points, but in the end, it will be the INDIVIDUAL dog that matters.

I would suggest, if you don't have to own a pure bred for showing or breeding reasons, that you first look around in your local shelters and see what they have.
If you don't need a puppy, you will know what you are getting as far as looks and personality in a young adult.

Since you already know you may like a GSD and have a friend breeding them, why not go with one of hers?
She knows your needs and which dog may suit you best and can help you with the training and any problems.

Take your time, sleep on it, talk to many people and, once you choose a dog, don't look back but focus on that dog and it's training.

We don't generally get to have many dogs in a lifetime, but those like myself and others that have trained dogs and work with dog clubs have seen them all, good and bad, in any breed.

A new dog will be a lot of work to train at first, but worth it to have many years with a well trained dog.

Good luck!

[sunridge1]

How about a Burmese Mountain Dog? They are beautiful and big.
Mary

[IveGotRhythm]

I am a doberman devotee to the core. However, every dobie I have owned (7, so far) or been honored enough to know has 1 thing in common:

They are weather-wimps. (Think about it. Very little hair or body fat)

"Ummm, mom, it's raining outside. You can't possibly think...?" " But there's DEW on the grass!!!" or "Look at the fun fluffy white stuff!!! (Pause) OMG let me in it's cold!!!!"

So if you don't mind if your big fierce guard dog watches you do your barn stuff from inside where it's warm and dry then I highly recommend them!

:D

[JBnC]

I am partial to Anatolians. I think that they are worth checking out:

http://www.anatoliandog.org

[LPacker79]

Giant Schnauzer. Don't be fooled by the Schnauzer part, they are very capable working dogs and have made good police dogs. I'd have one if I could convince the BF that we really really need two dogs.

I'm also a huge Dobie fan, every one I've met has been an absolute doll.

[Just My Style]

Personally, I am of the school that horses and dogs do not mix. I don't let mine co-exist. That being said, I have a Great Dane and I adore him. Fantastic dog. Very laid back and kind, yet big enough to scare the daylights out of anyone. We originally got him as a companion for my then 2 year old son. We always feel safe with him around. Great with kids and gnerally good with people, although he is the first to take issue with a strange man. His hair will stand up, he will stack and bark. The meter reader has needed a new pair of drawers on a few occassions, I am sure. :lol: He is good with the horses and they are good with him, but they are seperated with a 3 board fence w/ wire. I take him with me to feed and he waits patiently at the gate for me the whole time. One time I didn't close the gate properly and I heard jingles form his tags getting closer. When I turned around, he was sitting quietly next to the feedbin behind me. He could have chased the horses, but it was more important to find mommy. :D

[Chief2]

Super spike, Thank you for the tread! I love the Swissy (my favorite is the Bernese Mountain) Dogs and had forgotten them in my thoughts! Great thread! This indeed may be a good choice for the OP. Great thinking!

[skrgirl]

A good friend of mine has a Great Pyrenees and it is the dumbest dog. We had a white samoyed growing up and I thought that one was dumb. I think they bigger they get, the smaller their brain gets, lol.

Boxers are wonderful, super friendly, territorial. My neighbor breeds them and when we go over, they bark their heads off and look mean as anything but will lick us half to death. They have never harassed our cats or horses or other dogs.

Great Danes are pretty scary looking and are super friendly, though Ive heard a lot have health problems. Not sure if thats true.

Rhotts are great but will eat small animals like cats. They also seem to chew everything. They drool a lot too.

I think the best dogs are mutts though. They always seem to be the smartest and most protective but still super friendly.

[Grasshopper]

I love GSDs, though a big issue can be that they are herding dogs, which means they may be inclined to chase horses. On the other hand, they tend to be very smart and inclined to please, but if I were going to let them roam free with multiple horses and foals especially, I'd want to work with a very good dog trainer to make sure to nip any horse chasing tendencies in the bud, and maybe channel those instincts some other way.

That said, DH and I adopted 2 GSDs from a rescue group about 2 months ago, and they are great. They are each about 1 year old, and have shown some desire to chase the horses, but are getting better with patience and exposure. We have a teenage horse and pony who are both pretty dogproof, which helps. They do seem to know the difference when I am working my mare, and like to trot along behind but not chase her when I am longing or riding her.

They are complete lovebugs with us. The male is friendly but not overly so with strangers, but the female has a very impressive bark. Very trainable so far, they love to hang out with us, and even after such a short time and getting them as young adults, they have a pretty good long recall from wherever they happen to be on our 10 acres.

I love Great Pyrs too, but we live in FL and they have too much hair for this kind of heat. The GSDs seem to do fine with shade and water, even during the summer, as long as they don't exert themselves.

[Petstorejunkie]

Tell your friend you want a olde style east german gsd. the bigguns from before the days of hyena backs. <and then in want her contact info...>
It was my #1 choice for you even before i had read that far.
GSD's are brilliant, and you can use their herding instinct to your advantage if started correctly. Herding dogs only chase if they are not trained how to use their instincts. I will only own herding dogs, personally... you can occationally suade me to a sighthound, but that is rare. Herding is where the "brains" are.
I also like irish wolfhounds
Great pyranese would be appropriate if you live in a cooler climate... or if you are handy with a pair of clippers!

oh, almost forgot! the bouvier is an excellent choice. Ignore the AKC look. They do nicely with a #7 clip and a little face shaping. The are a herding breed, large, great home protectors, and have been known to eat small children and stray chihuahuas!

[declan]

I'm on my 2nd and 3rd. I run a med size event stable so people coming and going. They are great with people, great with the horses, great with other dogs, even good with the house and barn cats. They don't shed, are natural guard dogs, last on 2hr hacks in the a.m. and ready to go in the p.m. If you are not into grooming (I'm not) just take the horse clippers to them every other month. ( Even in the winter as the snow balls tend to weight them down). Bad points....very owner intensive, need training right from the start to keep that guarding instinct in tow, are burr magnets, (use show sheen daily to keep that under control), don't do well without a "job". Mine travel everywhere with me including horses shows. I will always own at least one. Right now I live with 2 Bouviers, 2 rescue Muttlies, 1 Golden and they all get on great. Good luck with your search.

[Bluey]

GSD are herding dogs, but really more of the upright, drover/boundary guarding herding type than the chasing/rounding up kind, like true strictly herding breeds are.

Their herding training and showing is about that, more than the kind of gathering, penning and separating, say, border collies do.

GSD are not as intent in the chase part, so less apt to be by instinct rather neurotic to chase or else.

Great pyrinees, anatolians and other such livestock guarding breeds have not been bred to want to work with people, so they, being more aloof, don't really tend to shine in what we consider social and intelligent behavior.
That is why they are considered lower in that scale, being little motivated to learn, although not exactly dumb because of that.;)

[ybiaw]

What about a Dalmation? Lets not forget that they were used as Fire Dogs when the fire engines were still pulled by teams of horses. I've heard they are excellent around them. And they're kind of cool to look at, too. (though not recommended around horses that are deathly afraid of cows, due to the spots...:lol: kidding, of course)

Here's a link to the Wiki Dalmation Page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian

Lots of good info - turns out they ARE really great with horses, and lack a lot of the physical problems that can be found in a lot of the larger breeds (hips, etc).

[Lawn Ornament]

First, I would question the idea of a dog to scare intruders off.

As someone who owns a large "guard-type" dog, I'm more inclined to recommend a dog who acts as a motion detector, not a hand gun - a dog that will alert you as soon as someone enters your property, instead of hoping that, without training, a dog will instinctively protect you... from my experiences, I mostly see protection coming from a dog who believes he "owns" you and it rarely comes out when you want it.

A few years ago, I had an older large dog, who was a model citizen (extensive training). Well, while renovating my house, we spent a short time living with my parents and she quickly became attached to my mother, who's in her 70's... to the extent that if my mother was home alone, she would not let anyone in the house, period. At first, my mother thought it was reassuring, but quickly she felt as if she had been held captive. I had never seen that type of behavior from the dog, if I was home, she was not possessive/protective, but without a human leader in the house, my pooch immediately took charge of the situation. Just something you may want to think about as you will have a similar situation where the dog may match your personality, but not your mom's.

[DopyDgz]

Temperment is far more important than breed, and it is easier to read Temperment in an older dog than in a young pup. Take your trainer-friends with you to a shelter and find an young or adult dog that suits you temperment and appearance-wise and ask your trainers to evaluate them for trainibility.

There are many purebreds to be found in shelters so don't run off to a breeder just in order to get a purebred.

I personally am a huge fan of Austrailian Shepherds. They are very loyal and tons of fun.

[dressagetraks]

Great ideas and comments! Thanks, everybody. I've written down all these breeds to check up further on. (Yes, I'm a research maniac who does research for fun.)

I do love GSDs, just trying to make sure I get a wider view than she has. She's understandably breed biased to some extent, as GSDs are her life.

Those Swiss dogs are neat-looking! Not that looks are everything, as I said, and I rank other qualities much higher, of course, but I do want something easy on the eyes, too.

Love the show sheen idea, and will keep it in mind if I wind up with a hairy beast.

[west5]

I have a female GSD/mix (maybe rottie/maybe hound) from the pound. She was about 4 years old when we adopted her.

She is incredibly obedient, protective and smart.

She LOVES my mother! (and my kids)

Her bark/look has provoked the comment what is that a wolf? She will always stay between me and a stranger until it is ok. I have never felt safer.

The up side about the mix is that there are no hind end/hip problems. Also, she isn't actually that large as she weighs under 60lbs. She is scary as she has a real street/pound dog look to her but her face is beautiful.

If I knew how to post pictures I would. She is fine with the horses.

I will also say I know one trainer who has always had the most fabulous female dobermans. Spectacular in every way and with the horses 24/7.

[Guin]

I love Akitas, they are bred to guard their family, but I don't know how they are around horses.

[riverbell93]

One thing to consider is the nasty truth that there are a lot of rotten dogs out there, particularly the guard breeds. Trash humans adore big, 'macho' dogs, and a lot of breeds have been thoroughly trashed. Conformationally, genetically, temperamentally, but most of all mentally, they're toast. If you were looking for a normal pet, or for a training project, that'd be one thing. But a dog you can rely on to both be 1) sane while given the freedom of your property and 2) a credible threat to Jack the Ripper?

[alacrity]

I'm always surprised how many farms I've gone to that have GSDs. I love them, but I know there are some conformational issues with certain lines, and I do know that a lot of people are scared of them. I think the ideal farm dog is either a Dutch Shepherd or a Belgian Malinois - they're a little smaller and are pretty much used purely as working dogs. If bred properly they aren't aggressive, they will just check things out and be protective of you if the need arises.

[dressagetraks]

Oh yes, I know a lot of breeds have been totally trashed. Heard plenty on it from my GSD friend, also. While praising GSDs to the heights one moment, she tells me she wouldn't have many she knows as a gift the next moment. I will be absolutely stringent on bloodlines, history of parents, reputable breeders (with recommendations, which will be checked), etc. Not something I'll go into lightly, or on impulse. I'm not downplaying the commitment or the responsibility here.

For that reason, I really am thinking more of a breeder, not a shelter. The registration papers mean nothing to me, but what's behind them in terms of known mental stability, trainability for generations, and health means a lot. I love shelter critters. I have all sorts of rescue cats. But for this, I want more background info and choice than that.

[Just My Style]

Great Danes are pretty scary looking and are super friendly, though Ive heard a lot have health problems. Not sure if thats true.



It depends. It seems as though the dogs with the stronger strains of American lines have more health problems. The European dogs live much longer. You have to watch their hips, but that is standard in most big breeds. You do have to watch for bloat and torsion. It can be controlled a lot by feeding. It is really kind of the dog version of colic. I guess that is why it didn't stress me out that much. Plus some lines seem to have more cases of bloat or torsion than others. When we got Norman, we met his 12 year old grandmother. Not a bad age for any breed. They are very much indoor dogs. Very, very sweet, and also very loyal.

I have heard of numerous cases where a Dane has cornered an intruder and held them until help came. In fact, I heard of one case where a guy was pinned face down on some stairs with a Dane sitting on him. The owner came home and called 911. The police didn't have to do anything but cuff the guy once the owner called the dog off. Not vicious, but very protective. Mine hangs out with my son, the guinea pigs and a JRT. No issues. But you break in my house and try to hurt us- good luck to you! ;)

[WW_Queen]

I can't say my puppy is the bodyguard type (she'll bark when she's testing your authority, but that's about it :lol: ) however due to her sheer size and her markings, people assume (honestly!) that she is a wolf.

Children run over to play with her and pet her because she's "so cute" but grown-ups (even ones who like/have dogs) take a second glance before approaching her. If I were up to no good and saw a face like hers staring out from behind a window, I'd run the other way! :D

Despite her big size and fierce looks, she's great with our 5 year old, personable, smart, great around the horses and all-in-all a fun, happy dog. :)

PM me if you're interested in seeing pic or finding out what her breed is.

[winter]

I adore Rotties.
I see that no one mentioned them here.
The one I had was:
-very gentle with small animals (he even brought home a baby bunny once unharmed).
-very trainable
-good with horses and other dogs and cats
-protective of his owner/house but not aggresive at all.

Right now the local pound has some adorable Rottie cross puppies for adoption. If I had an acreage I'd be getting one as my farm dog.
http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_855_270_0_43/http%3B/www.petharbor.com%3B47880/detail.asp?ID=A376396&LOCATION=CLGR&searchtype=ADOPT&start=4&stylesheet=http://www.calgary.ca/style/pets.css&friends=0&samaritans=1&nosuccess=0&rows=100&imght=100&imgres=thumb&view=sysadm.v_web_2&nobreedreq=1&nomax=1&fontface=arial&fontsize=10&shelterlist='CLGR'&where=type_DOG

I also like the swiss and Bearnese (sp?) mountain dogs.
Oh, had a Bouvier on the farm growing up that was excellent. Personally I am not a fan of golden's, labs, pointers for farm dogs.

[Astraled]

My GSD/Greyhound mix is a great dog :yes:. She doesn't eat kids (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/astraled/shelby_binger.jpg), though. She's great on the farm, too, doesn't eat cats or chase horses, runs off wandering neighbor dogs, and loves foals, too. (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y181/astraled/Dudley/IMG_2501.jpg)

She sounds like a pack of hounds from hell when she barks but doesn't bite or otherwise behave aggressively towards people (I like that for liability reasons). The one exception was the time I was play wrestling with a friend and yelled for the dog to help me. She leaped up and knocked him off me. I feel she would try to protect me if I was threatened.

She's my first GSD mix and as you can probably tell, I'm sold on them :D.

[Lieb Schon]

I want to ask you to do some research on the Rhodesian Ridgeback. Animal planet did a special, and I was very impressed. I have had the opportunity to meet a few in person, and they are spectacular creatures. These dogs were bred to protect their flock, and fight and hunt lions in Africa. They are lovely reserved creatures who won't pick a fight, but will rise to the occasion. When properly trained you and the horses will be their flock. I really believe a Ridgeback is the way to go!
I also think a Collie or any herding dog is a really BAD idea. They chase whatever runs, and I've had some really bad experiences. I've also read about some here. Maybe do a search.
I've had great experiences with boxers myself. They can be hyper, but again it's all about the training. Happy hunting to you!

[Becka]

The best large breed we've ever owned is our Rotty, Macy! She's awesome around the horses. We've also owned GSD's however, I have to say the males were way better around the horses that the females....which I hear the opposite on the Rotty's.

I can't say enough good things about her. She's older now, and we don't have much time left with her and she will really be missed. However, even now, she still comes out to the barn in the morning and evening and stands patiently by the farrier waiting for her trimmings. She goes in and out of the stalls even when the horses are in them...unless I can scoot her out before....but, she's really good with them. NO barking. No chasing. She knows they belong to HER.

Best of luck in your search!

Take care.
Becka

[RegentLion]

I was once looking for a dog for the same "job" description you posted-- and thought that the LGDs (Livestock Gaurdian Dogs) sounded great--particularly the Anatolians and Kusvaz (not sure if I spelled that right). Great Pyrs fall into that realm as well, but my husband (who is gone a lot for work) didn't want one of those because he knows some locally that are a little whacko.

So I visited an Anatolian breeder and they were *big* *beautiful* and IMPOSING dogs, they barked really seriously until the woman told them that I was a "friend" and then they were wonderful and friendly. There was one or two, however, that she DID NOT let us go see and did NOT let them out of their pens because they were too aggressive to strangers, and didn't listen to her when she told them to relax. She keeps those dogs because she owns them but is not using them in her breeding program. She was wonderful and nice and I would not hesitate to get a pup from her. I guess that the LGDs will protect whatever they are raised with--people-foals-whatever.

I DID end up with a Chesapeake Bay Retriever--she's only 7mo now but great around the horses and has a bark that scares *me* and I'm her owner! She wont' be as big as some but she is pretty big. Their coats are sort of curly-ish and dry really fast so that is a bonus since she's dirty after being on the farm all day.


So check out these breeds;

Anatolian Shepherds
Kusvaz
Chesapeake Bay Retrievers

[Westlaw]

I don't think it has to be a guard dog breed. Most any dog will have a protective instinct and a good growl when a stranger comes around.

Try a mixed breed. You can find really great dogs of the right size through rescue groups (our best one here in MD is called "PAW") that have been in foster homes, are trained, and are known quantities.

Dobermans are wonderful dogs but they suffer in the cold. Only barn dobies I've known have had blankets all winter and still shivered, the poor things.

I love Rottweilers and they can be wonderful family dogs, but you MUST ensure perfect training or you have a problem on your hands. You can get a mature trained dog if you look. My single neighbor got a rottweiler from the police force (I think she knew the right people) and he was the best dog ever, may he rest in peace.

[Levi's owner]

My friend one time rescued a Great Dane from the pound. He was an AWESOME farm dog. He was scary looking so the UPS man was afraid of him, but a super gentle giant. When he died, she immediately went to the pound and happened upon another Great Dane. She said she'll never have a farm without one.

Now, my best friend in Colorado adopted a Aussie shepard. She was very well bred, and trained. She was a wonderful dog. She preferred being outside, guarding her horses and chickens from the coyotes than being inside. In fact, Kris used to have to force her to stay inside during blizzards, and the whole time she was miserable being in.

She guarded the farm until a few months ago when Kris noticed she didn't seem herself. She took her into her vet's office and scoped her.......advanced stages of liver cancer.

[Heineken]

The short list for me would be
Doberman
Rottie
GSD
Rhodesian Ridgeback

in no particular order. I have an Aussie and I love her but she isn't big or scary at all! I have known all 4 of those breeds as pets and barn dogs and the ones I've known are WONDERFUL. I'm a big fan of pits too but they are so controversial...

[Lieb Schon]

Sorry, but when I saw Chesapeake Bay Retriever, I just cringed. I've known a few, and they take loyalty to a whole new level. My dear friend has one, and my God what a pain! If told to lay down away from everyone, he would lay on the floor and WHINE, louder and louder and LOUDER. He was more than a watch dog in that his vocals were along the line of "WOOFWOOF (look at me now, people!)" And the drool :no:, not the way to go if you don't like drool. Oh and being a water dog, they stink if they aren't in the water VERY regularly.
But the Anatolian might be another good idea!

[MsM]

It sounds as if you want a dog to intimidate strangers who might not have honorable intentions:winkgrin:
If you dont feel the need for a purebred, any large-breed not-too-cute and not-overly-friendly (avoid golden crosses in general) would be a likely candidate. Due to the horses, I would avoid anything with a high prey drive (the husky types come to mind) as they cant resist chasing, and the more intense herding breeds also may bother the horses. If you go with a puppy, the problem is that you dont know how its personality will develop. You might be able to find a young adult who is impressive enough and stand-offish enough to suit.
If you want a purebred, the big issue is finding one of the right temperment and avoiding congenital health problems. Here, the GSD comes out ahead because you know a breeder and her stock. That is a tremendous advantage. You might find other breeds that should meet your needs, but you will not know their stock as well - the dogs they produce may or may not have the typical breed characteristics tempermentally and physically.
I also agree that females tend to be more likely to stay at home and protect.
Ultimately it is a crapshoot. You might do everything "right" and end up with a dog that loves everyone and wants to chase the horses! :rolleyes: The best you can do is try to stack the odds in your favor, but it will never be a certainty. Please consider how you would manage your dog, whether he is good at his (her!) job or not.

[Renae]

I also think a Collie or any herding dog is a really BAD idea. They chase whatever runs

There is a huge differance between a Border Collie, a breed which has an intense herding desire, and the Rough and Smooth Collies, which are not as intense about their herding and while working at a farm with 75 horses and 50 cattle along with 5 Smooth Collies we never once had any of the Collies chase any of the horses or cattle. Different herding breeds were bred for different duties, such as the Border Collie as an intense flock worker, the Rough and Smooth Collie as an all-purpose dog or the Anatolian Shepherd as a guradian breed.

[Cielo Azure]

A working bred Aussie, bred for cattle (but can work sheep). You have to go out and search for them (a show line dog just isn't the same -almost a different breed) and they aren't expensive but man-o-man, best dog in the world. They are not for the novice dog owner.

See Terry Martin's website for some good examples:

http://users.htcomp.net/slashv/

A red stockdog aussie, with minimal white and yellow eyes. Whew. I love that kind of DAWG!!!

[MSP]

Not sure if you were planning on keeping the dog inside or in the barn but that is a factor that can alter your choice.

I have looked into this for a dog to protect my livestock (I want to retire in the mountains) and my first choice was the Great Pyrenees. However, they need to be trained for this as puppies and this means staying with the livestock they are meant to protect. Not exactly a house dog.

If you want a dog to attack children then go with the German Shepard I was torn up by one when I was a child as another poster was so they seem to excel at that! :winkgrin:

I think if you look for dogs that have a protective trait you would be fine to go with them and just raise them around horses so they see them as part of the family; so really many breeds would suite your needs.

One other thing incase no one has mentioned, the preference between male and female is breed specific so pick a breed first then find out whether the male or female will suite you better.

[shakeytails]

My Heeler/SheperdX was the best farm dog ever. She'd watch the foals and play with them, loved children and other domestic animals, killed rats, 'possums and 'coons and chased off coyotes. She acted dumb as a rock but was incredibly smart. She also seemed to know who was good and who was bad- she loved almost everyone, but there's no doubt in my mind she'd have fiercely guarded anything that was hers. If that dog didn't like someone, they were not welcome on my farm. She rarely barked and rarely left the property- though she did go to the neighbor's occasionally because she thought those horses were "hers", too. The neighbors adored her. I never trained her even one little bit.
I have an ancient Chow/Golden Retriever cross that I got as a middle aged dog from a TWH farm that sold out. She's always just kind of hung out, never bothering anything but she tends to be very protective of both the horses and us. In her younger days she could be quite intimidating.
My Pyr I got as a replacement for the first dog I mentioned. I love her, but she's a goofball. She will wander some (a whole lot less since I got her spayed)- she and the neighbor's Pyr guard both farms- I'll look out across the hayfields and wonder "is that my dog or the other one? They seem to be nocturnal dogs- sleep all day and patrol at night. And they bark...A LOT. Not a dog for you if you have close and/or intolerant neighbors. She's a very sweet dog that also loves everybody, but I've been told that when we're not home she's very intimidating. I haven't seen that side of her- but it's good to know she's doing her job when we're not here.

[EventingJ]

Rotties and Labs are my favorite..... GSDs would be the very bottom of my list as I've watched my father go through 4 GSDs in the last 6 years or so. The first two were rescues, the last two were top of the line, grand champion bred, pick of the litter $1500+ pups....

Dog #1 (rescue), beautiful, beautiful dog... you think standard GSD you think him. He is the "K-9" cop look alike.. everyone loved him and he LOOKED very friendly...very loyal to my father and I, definatly had some screw loose in his head... would randomly and without warning bite visitors even if he had previously met them, had been in the house for12 hours, etc. He ended up getting out of the fence one time, and hit by a car.. died instantly. My dad's favorite dog, but definatly had mental health issues.

Dog #2 (rescue) very timid, would be a fear biter if someone were to approach, like a small child. Thought perhaps was maybe abused as a pup, father got him when he was 5 months old... still very very shy, they type of dog who will bark and then run the opposite direction. Has hip displaysia, had surgery at 1 year, could only do one hip. he is now gimpy now that hes a little older.

Dog #3 (breeder) Shiloh shepard. Very friendly, wouldnt hurt a fly. By the time he was 1 he was diagnosed with degenerative spinal myelopathy.. he slowly lost control of his hind legs/loosing feeling. He sort of got to a point where he could still walk, but was very clumsy. By the time he was 2 he was diagnosed with bone cancer, had to be put to sleep within 3 months of diagnoses (had already spread).

Dog #4 (breeder). another shy, timid fear biter. Another dog that would run away from a stranger. This dog was bought as a young pup, raised like the other pup, still turned out timid, scared...

needless to say, i really think the GSD is way too overbred... the Malnois (sp?) seems better... When my father was choosing the breeder's dogs he looked extensively into their parentage, looking specifically for dogs who did not have hip displaysia, or other heritable traits...

I've met several Rotti barn dogs, they have all been great from what I've seen, leave the horses alone, stay close to the owner. I had a rott growing up, loveable, could scare the crap out of a stranger with his bark and his size. Also had labs growing up, also a great dog but high energy. The barn i board at has a lab, cute dog.. gets into trouble (still a pup)... got kicked by a horse when he got out of his kennel. The dog before that got hit by a car :(

[EquineLoveSpell]

I recently saw a special on tv about Dogo Argentina's. They are huge and fierce looking, but are known for their outstanding temperment with kids and love to kiss and cuddle their family. They are very smart and easy to train.

I don't know how they with horses, anyone here have any experience with them?

Here is a link to the breed: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/dogo.htm

[JCS]

I am partial to Anatolians. I think that they are worth checking out:

http://www.anatoliandog.org

My sister has an Anatolian and he is AWESOME. He looks like a ginormous German Shepherd--like, seriously ginormous. Due to his size and wolfish appearance, he would be super scary to an intruder, but he's very friendly.

Don't know how he would be around horses though.

[PhoenixFarm]

Haven't read all the replies, but can share my experiences.

I'm a Dobie person, and am raising my most recent black and tan shadow right now (16 weeks today). Lost my old man on Xmas Eve.

Love this breed. By far the smartest, most noble, fun, funny, charming dogs. Smart, loyal, and loving. However, I don't really "allow" mine to be protective. The intimidation factor alone is enough. Mine learn from day one that they are to be friednly towards strangers--I don't let them ever behave aggressively towars humans. Mine have always been good around horses and other livestock, and good with cats and other dogs. My last guy wasn't a great horse show dog though, because cheering used to set him off.

That being said, I also have Nigerian Dwarf Goats, and I have a Great Pyrenees, Italian Maremma cross guard dog for them. I think this type of dog is more in line with what you are looking for, particularly a pure Maremma. I got a Pyr cross because I wanted to mitigate the "suspicious" nature of the Maremma when it comes to strange people (I own a boarding and training barn, so people agression simply can't happen, plus I'm not worried about someone stealing my goats, I'm worried about something eating them).

When I was researching this type of dog, I visited someone with a pure maremma. Although the dog was completely cute and friendly once Mom said I was OK, there was not enough money in the world to get me to go through that gate unaccompanied by Mom. The dog meant business. Strangers, predators, and other unsavories need not apply. And since these are livestock oreinted breeds, acclimating them to appropriate horse behavior is easy.

Things to consider (whether a Maremma or a Pyr):

These aren't house dogs or pets. They are sweet, affectionate, and loving. But they aren't house pets. They don't want to be in the house, and the don't do well in the house.

They require proper "training" but they aren't "trainable" Mine has learned the boundaries of the property, how to greet people, how tobehave around different types of animals, and after 6 friggin' months, his name. He does not sit, he does not stay, he comes when he deems it necessary. If you want an obediance trial dog, look elsewhere, LOL. These dogs are 80% instinct, 20% education. The other LGD people I chat with think I'm a wild rebel because I taught mine to walk on a leash, LOL.

But I'd really recomend you look into the Maremma if you seriously want something not particularly people friendly--the Pyr's usually are, and the Maremma's less so.

[RHdobes563]

Once you go Dobe you'll never go back!

:D

I, too, am a Doberman owner and feel that they fit many of your criteria. HOWEVER, I had one Doberman that was FANTASTIC with my horses and others that were terrified of them. I think an introduction as a puppy or young dog with a friendly horse would be possible. I love them, but their short coat isn't good in cold weather.

A friend of mine has been in German Shepherd Dogs for over 30 years. HOWEVER, she buys GERMAN German Shepherd Dogs, i.e. the ones WITHOUT the extremely sloping topline. And their coat would be good for both cold and warm weather, although they do shed like fiends. They are also a "herding dog", so life on a farm could suit them.

However, my friend says that GSDs get "old" at 7 years of age, graying, slowing down, etc. Not much difference from a very LARGE breed.

There are some good suggestions here. Mixed breeds are great, too, but in those cases, you're not sure which half of the parent it might take after. It might have the supersweet, non-aggressive, totally friendly personality of the Golden Retriever in the "Goldendoodle" or might have the "I must run away and hunt" part of the Labrador Retriever in the "Labradoodle." This doesn't mean that ALL of these mixes are like this or doesn't mean either one of these might not be the perfect dog for you. However, realize that a ton of them are now in rescue (search petfinder.com), so there's a reason.

With purebred dogs, there is a long history of the behavior of the breeds, and though there are exceptions, you have a better chance of getting exactly what you wanted. And too, you can find these purebreds in the shelters/rescues, too.

Good luck finding the perfect barn/guard dog!

[RegentLion]

Sorry, but when I saw Chesapeake Bay Retriever, I just cringed. I've known a few, and they take loyalty to a whole new level. My dear friend has one, and my God what a pain! If told to lay down away from everyone, he would lay on the floor and WHINE, louder and louder and LOUDER. He was more than a watch dog in that his vocals were along the line of "WOOFWOOF (look at me now, people!)" And the drool :no:, not the way to go if you don't like drool. Oh and being a water dog, they stink if they aren't in the water VERY regularly.
But the Anatolian might be another good idea!


Lieb--I have to say that I"m glad my Chessie isn't like the one your friend has! Brass will lay (tied) at a horse show ALL DAY away from EVERYONE and just hang out and sleep. She whined ONCE and my husband told her to "be quiet" and she shut up and was an angel the rest of the weekend. She's loyal but not dumb and certainly not annoying. I've heard the part about the stinking, and so far she doesn't have an odor whatsoever! She does "drool" though... but only after drinking--she drains water is the more accurate term.

Anatolians are really cool dogs and might be the way to go in this situation. I don't believe that most states have one of those homeowners insurance exclusions against them like GSD/Dobies/Rotties often have.

[Aggie4Bar]

Rotties and Labs are my favorite..... GSDs would be the very bottom of my list as I've watched my father go through 4 GSDs in the last 6 years or so. The first two were rescues, the last two were top of the line, grand champion bred, pick of the litter $1500+ pups....

needless to say, i really think the GSD is way too overbred... the Malnois (sp?) seems better... When my father was choosing the breeder's dogs he looked extensively into their parentage, looking specifically for dogs who did not have hip displaysia, or other heritable traits...(

:::Flamesuit Zipped:::

"Grand Champion Bred" applied to a herding/working dog is a worthless title. Show dogs - though pretty - are often the worst examples of what the breed should be. Where do we get the high prevalence of hip dysplasia? Show ring. Where do we get soft dogs? Show ring. Where do we get sharp dogs? Show ring. Fear biters? Show ring. Funky, ass-dragging conformation? Show ring. Yes, those breeders will claim "temperment tested" and whatnot, but the bottom line is, working breeders cull out weak nerved, unpredictable, and sick dogs.

Just like in horses, there are some good Schutzhund trainers with the capacity to train poorly bred (nervy) dogs to a SchH III title. Those dogs pass tests and still fear bite. But if you go to a breeder of working line GSDs (or herding Border Collies or hunting Labs), the odds are significantly increased that you will get good temperment, trainability, and health. The breeder trying to produce SAR and K-9 dogs is not going to risk producing a crap litter by breeding an unproven (physically and mentally) dog. Dam and sire are proven and titled. Function outweighs pretty. The only guarantee you get from show ring is pretty.

When the AKC recognized Border Collies, herding breeders cried. They had good reason. Breeding for comformation without regard to the working ability and instinct to work ruins the breeds. The very last place I would go for a herding/working breed of dog is to someone with "Grand Champion" highlines. But I cannot recommend strongly enough contacting a working breeder, discussing the intent for the dog, and allowing them to pick the puppy best suited for your needs based on their knowledge of the dogs they've bred.

If you're still stuck on the idea of "Grand Champion" dog show dogs, take a good hard look at the halter-bred Arabs and halter-bred QH. Would you buy one for a reliable riding horse? No.

:::Steps down from soapbox:::

[SuperSpike]

Regent Lion - I have been very impressed with the Chesapeakes I've known. Very trainable and very handsome dogs. :yes: They are hardy, too (can you imagine jumping in ice cold water retrieving ducks? Yikes)! The only overly aggressive one I've known was an elderly female with poor eye sight.

On Rhodesians: both my brother and a horse friend have one. Both are extremely stubborn and somewhat hard to train, but they are the only two I've been around for any considerable amount of time. They certainly are nice looking dogs, though.

On Dogo Argentinas: according to an acquaintance, his can be pretty darn aggressive towards strangers, even when he reassures him. I'd be a little leary. They are SO powerful and have such strong jaws...seems like a risk to me. Plus, some counties do not allow them. That being said, I don't know one personally. I must admit they're certainly impressive.

Good luck with your search! (I'm still recommending the Greater Swiss Mountain Dog)! If you do get one, be prepared for a lot of "cool dog, what breed is that?" I think they're nearly perfect, but I'm biased. :D FWIW, I've found that individuals adhere closely to the standard in terms of appearance and character.

[Just My Style]

And I already put in my plug for the dog I love the best, but I have to comment on the GSD. Our neighbors had two of them when we lived in MI. They got out of their enclosure one day and went on a killing spree through all the properties. They took apart one neighbor's dairy goats by climbing their 5 foot fence. When my friend, a 6th grade boy, went to the barn, we found his goats in pieces.

They then came to our house and tried to do the same to our 6 dairy goats. We had $$$$ vet bills to sew up lots of open wounds on the necks and undersides. One even lost an ear.

Then they moved on to my childrens hunter. With two dogs on him he couldn't get away and he capped both his hocks kicking the fence. Once they grabbed his leg, they shredded it. It was the middle of the show season and he was laid up for over 6 months. I never saw so much blood on a horse before. And once again, it cost $$$$ to put the poor horse back together. He was never afraid of dogs before then and we always had to watch him after. He would run himself clear through a fence, if he felt threatened at all. We had a basset hound and he wasn't afraid of him. 20+ years later we still own him and I brought my Great Dane to my parent's place. The horse's eyes got huge and he bolted off just at the sight of him

If not trained properly and monitored every second by their owners they can have a high prey drive. To this day I steer clear of them. I would never, ever let them around livestock, even though I know that is what they are bred for. Their high prey drive is what make them such hugely successful police dogs. The problem is that regular owners often do not know what to do with them and it takes just minutes for it to go bad.

[3Day-Eventer]

Rotties!

[Bluey]

One good point someone made is that you may want to check with your homeowner's insurance, to see if there are any breeds or sizes of dogs that are excluded in their liability coverage.
If they are, that may help narrow which kind of dog you may look for.

[BarbB]

GSD
:D

[SteppinEasy]

Just a quick note because my dog also takes care of me and my elderly mother, so I know what you're looking for.

I'm a huge Pyr fan. I currently have one I found on the side of the road when she was about a year old. She's the best dog I've ever had, and I've had LOTS of dogs over the years, lol. It's a myth that they don't make good house dogs--mine lives in the house and would be thrilled if I'd let her be a couch potato. It's also a myth that their coats act as air conditioning. I've had several vets who are also Pyr owners and they all cut their coats short in the summer (leave enough hair on to protect the skin from sunburn). Their coats are surprisingly maintainence free, so don't count them out because of that.

Pyrs are not for everybody. They're incredibly smart, but they're bred to be independent thinkers. If you want a dog who asks, "How high?" while it's following the command to jump, a Pry is not for you. They CAN be trained, even as adults, but they're a bit like mules--much smarter than the average horse and with a much more well-developed sense of both self-preservation/self-interest and fairness. If a Pyr feels you have wronged him, he'll remember it forever, like a mule. If one bonds with you, she'll do anything for you (even come when called, although it wounds their pride a bit:)!). They can seem to sniff out bad intentions, too. My Pyr loves everybody. Usually. But she's growled and snapped at several people who I later found out were bad lots. I've learned to trust her instincts. Every other Pyr I've ever met has been equally intuitive.

Other than Pyrs, I've had some wonderful Rotts as farms dogs. Sorry to the GSD folks, but the ones I've met have either been extremely aggressive all the time or just dumb as rocks. And strangely, the dumb ones have all been from German lines. Sweet dogs, though.

[sunridge1]

:::Flamesuit Zipped:::

"Grand Champion Bred" applied to a herding/working dog is a worthless title. Show dogs - though pretty - are often the worst examples of what the breed should be. Where do we get the high prevalence of hip dysplasia? Show ring. Where do we get soft dogs? Show ring. Where do we get sharp dogs? Show ring. Fear biters? Show ring. Funky, ass-dragging conformation? Show ring. Yes, those breeders will claim "temperment tested" and whatnot, but the bottom line is, working breeders cull out weak nerved, unpredictable, and sick dogs.

Just like in horses, there are some good Schutzhund trainers with the capacity to train poorly bred (nervy) dogs to a SchH III title. Those dogs pass tests and still fear bite. But if you go to a breeder of working line GSDs (or herding Border Collies or hunting Labs), the odds are significantly increased that you will get good temperment, trainability, and health. The breeder trying to produce SAR and K-9 dogs is not going to risk producing a crap litter by breeding an unproven (physically and mentally) dog. Dam and sire are proven and titled. Function outweighs pretty. The only guarantee you get from show ring is pretty.

When the AKC recognized Border Collies, herding breeders cried. They had good reason. Breeding for comformation without regard to the working ability and instinct to work ruins the breeds. The very last place I would go for a herding/working breed of dog is to someone with "Grand Champion" highlines. But I cannot recommend strongly enough contacting a working breeder, discussing the intent for the dog, and allowing them to pick the puppy best suited for your needs based on their knowledge of the dogs they've bred.

If you're still stuck on the idea of "Grand Champion" dog show dogs, take a good hard look at the halter-bred Arabs and halter-bred QH. Would you buy one for a reliable riding horse? No.

:::Steps down from soapbox:::


Absolutely! My GSD"s are from working lines. All are SCH titled. Oh, she's working her perimeter right now. Well I quess it's just the deck. Mutiple dogs are nearly always a problem, they form packs, even the best trained will pack up. And once they pack then prey drive kicks in and that's why most fatal dog attacks are multiple dogs they feed off each other. I learned the hard way. Not people but deer, dogs running amok. Even my foo-foo dog packs up with my shepherd, but it's just chipmunks.
Mary

[equinelaw]

because my homeowners insurance company, and any other I could chose, has a list of dogs they DO NOT COVER I always look at the list before the "Dogs of the World" book. Some breeds have different names like pit bull/stafordshire terrier and GSD/Alsation so you can always honestly fill out your insurance forms and see if they know the difference, but those lists are pretty specific--like a Husky is OK but a Malumute is not. The lists are based on cost of your ownership to the insurance company. They do the math and decide the risk your GSD will cost them $200K when it bites a kid on the face isn't worth your premiums.

I too love big dogs, preferably short coated and "horse-like" but they tend to be short lived and I don't want to have only a few good years in my good dog. Crossbreds do tend to be healthier (heteroisis)and safer and less readily identifiable as any specific breed.

I have found that the scariest, most fierce dog I ever owned was the smallest. Pit bull's and their owners were terrified of her. She took 3 bullets at close range to protect me and didn't even whine. In fact, she was running around a few weeks later.

She was hell on paws, but wondeful around other animals and horses--except she would chase them. She learned not to chase them pretty fsat, but it was a default position with her. She was an Austrailian cattle dog (Blue Heeler) and although small, she was everything a GSD can be and so much more--but she wasn't on the list of forbidon dogs:>

I have had many dogs and worked professionally helping others with animal behavior problems and grooming and for myself, I wouldn't have most of the dogs people have mentioned. I'd like to have them, but the chance of getting one with a lose screw or getting sued and losing is just too great. The upkeep on a hairy dog is a lot of work and they don't dry fast so you can just hose em off and go.

My small heeler was shaved and wash and wear. She was portable, terrfiying (bred to scare 1,000 bulls after all) and cute and safe around people. She was small on the outside, but a small dog will outlive a big one by many years.

I did have a pair of Lurchers at one time. Thats a sighthound/shepard cross like the above poster mentioned and they were great, but they only attack form the rear so they don't scare intruders away as much as harrass them away.

Big dogs are wonderful, but size doesn't always matter. Insurance does. The last case I worked on involving an injury caused by a dog was settled for 350K. Thats a lot of money and the dog never even touched the man. Think about it. Read "the list". Then make your choice.

My large, lovely sleek large breed dog is trying to crawl under my computer desk right now becuase somewhere in a 20 mile radias a thunderstrom is forming. At least he is old for a big dog, but he ain't scary:)

[AHorseSomeDay]

I have an Alaskan Malamute. I love this breed. I think I will always have malamutes or mals as we like to call them. They are quiet dogs. They howl instead of barking and you can actually sing with them.They also talk and grumble back at you. It's a lot of fun. In fact Chewbacca in Star Wars is said to be portrayed after a mal. :) They are very dominant alpha oriented dogs so training is a MUST. I spent a lot of time training my dog. This breed is a family dog, they cannot be chained up outside with no human contact. They aren't recommended for first time dog owners.

As with every dog, please do your research and don't buy a breed based on the cuteness factor. This is a big problem with people. And always get your dog from a breeder not a pet shop.

As equinelaw said above, yes malamutes are listed as dangerous dogs to some insurance companies. I think this is BS because I find that small dogs are more dangerous. For example I find that a majority of JRTs are very mean. No offense to anyone here who owns one. My dog is very well trained and loves people. He has his CGC (Canine Good Citizen) from the AKC. As with any breeds, the person must be the Alpha. There is a whole set of rules and guides that you can follow to make sure you are the Alpha.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. :)

[sunridge1]

Heelers are also great dogs, I agree again, training is important I've seen some pretty aggressive Heelers. With all dogs their owners must be the Alpha. As to the insurance GSD's are NOT a problem with my insurance nor anyone else I know with Shepherds. Maybe a state thing?
Mary

[CaSaNoVa14]

I think a mastiff you work great. That is what we have and she is awesome. I think they are really cute, but they pretty much match everything that you are looking for. diva is protective when needed, and loving when not. she will stay on the property and they were breed to protect and intimadate.If you just hear the Mastiff defensive bark, it turns people away.

I also LOVE great pyr's they are sooooo cute. I want that for my next dog, the Diva doggie is my girl

and how can you resist a face like that

http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2774557850054345390xfkcts?vhost=pets

Hope this helps and good luck with the doggie hunting:)

[dressagetraks]

Honestly hadn't considered insurance. That's a definite point to check out. I am still in preliminary research here, probably months away from a puppy. I don't do much quickly or on impulse.

About wanting something nice to look at, I'd never buy a dog just on cuteness factor. I just see looks as sort of a cherry on top. Definitely would rather have an intelligent and reliable ugly dog than a great looking dog where the hair grew in as well as out and was all they possessed for brains. But honestly, in planning, why not draw up your goals with the cherry on top included? You might modify them later as needed, and there's always the possibility of a dog "choosing" you, but in my planning, while looks are far from the top, they are on the list.

I love looking at my horses, too. The majesty and nobility of them. The way they look in silhouette against the sunset. Getting down to my particular flavor of choice, the refining touch that I see in my Traks because of the Arab way back in there. I also enjoy seeing the feathers on Friesians, the loudness of leopard Appys, and the classic chiseled heads of the Arabs. It's part of what I love about horses, how beautiful they are. Would I pick a horse just on looks? Not anymore. Been there, done that, survived it by the grace of God and by my trainer's experience to see and recognize what I didn't know existed. But do I love looking at the horses and enjoy an especially neat-looking horse as a cherry on top of the underlying package of movement, conformation, brains, and trainability? Yes.

Same with dogs. Plan for all you're looking for. Then compromise when and where you have to, but not on the critical things. Looks aren't a critical thing, but on the initial list of all I'm looking for, yes, attractiveness is there.

[MHM]

The last case I worked on involving an injury caused by a dog was settled for 350K. Thats a lot of money and the dog never even touched the man.

OK, I have to ask- what happened? Did the person trip and get hurt running from the dog?? :eek:

To the OP, I tend to have dogs find me, rather than vice versa, but I've known some very good Ridgebacks that fit your description. They were solid and imposing, a little stand-offish with strangers, but nice with "their" people. They also seem to be mellow adults, not high-energy frantic types. A friend of mine had one on her farm, and she said it was the greatest barn dog EVER.

Good luck with your search!

[FlashGordon]

Giant Schnauzer. Don't be fooled by the Schnauzer part, they are very capable working dogs and have made good police dogs. I'd have one if I could convince the BF that we really really need two dogs.

I'm also a huge Dobie fan, every one I've met has been an absolute doll.

I second this. I am a hard-core dog lover and the only dog I've ever known, that I was REALLY afraid of was an ex-boyfriend's Giant Schnauzer. She was huge, and a really nasty bark, and came across as being quite aggressive when new people came into the yard or knocked on the door.

She was very sweet once she got to know you but man NO ONE wanted to mess with her when she was "on alert".

[equinelaw]

He tripped and got hurt grabbing his yappy little fluffy dog up to get it away from a charging growling bigger dog. Husky X was not on the list of no no dogs or the owner would still be paying for the next 20 years.

I think with the insurance companies its not about how often a dog bites, but how much it will cost them if it does. I groomed dogs for many, many years and #1's 1, 2 and 3 on my list of biters would be Cocker Spanials, Toy poodles, and Springer Spainals with rage syndrome--but I doubt most people get sued after being bitten my a cocker? Now a Lasa can give you a good 60 or so stictches in each bite, but they rarely make the list. Chows do considerable damage, but its usually becuase they only see a groomer once every year or 2 and they don't like strangers. Chows make the list often. I lost the use of my right hand for 6 weeks to a chow--and he was sedated!

If the breed has ever been featured on 20/20 or 60 Minutes--its got some bad publicity problems. Thats why the real tough yet "cute" ones that look like Stitch can latch onto an intruders nose, but if you walk into court with that Gremlin???? What judge or Jury would ever believe it?

I like GSDs, but I have no idea what a modern one looks like. I went to look at Malanios once that had that German training and titles, but Daddy dog had tried to pull Mommy dog into his pen that day--through the chain link. The man said the dogs would be safe around horses and children, but they weren't even safe around each other:no:

Try and break down the triats you want to more specific body parts like "stand up ears" or "furry vs sleek" coats. You know you want size and a good temperment, but in buying a puppy you can't be sure what you'll get but you'll be stuck with it for life. It takes several years for a puppy to become the "dog" you want.

Consider adopting an older dog. Genes may imply one potential--but the reality of the adult dog standing in front of you and availible for a trial period is more certain then a good breeding program.

I took me about 6 years to realize my present dog was pretty much my "dream dog". He's the right size, colar, type, mover, temperment ect ect . . . . .but he drove me crazy until he grew up--at 6 years old:D I never even noticed I would have picked him if he hadn't picked me first, but boy o bouy those first few years were hard!!!!! Greyhound/pointer mix. Double dumb but smarter then me:winkgrin:

[MHM]

Equinelaw-

I can tell you something about Cocker Spaniels. When my parents went to vet school many years ago, on the first day, one of the professors said, "If you don't remember a single other thing from this course, remember this: NEVER trust a Cocker Spaniel!" :lol:

My parents said through 50 years of small animal practice, they always remembered this advice because it was so true.

[RegentLion]

You know you want size and a good temperment, but in buying a puppy you can't be sure what you'll get but you'll be stuck with it for life. It takes several years for a puppy to become the "dog" you want.

Consider adopting an older dog. Genes may imply one potential--but the reality of the adult dog standing in front of you and availible for a trial period is more certain then a good breeding program.




(Bolded emphasis mine). As horse people, we should KNOW these things--they apply to horses, particularly young ones, as well.

As equine law said--genes imply potential, but you never know how or when or in what way that potential will be realized until the dog grows up.

I adopted one older dog (ACD) and loved him to bits (if you call 1 yr "older), baggage and all. I bought my Chessie at 6 mo and love HER to bits, baggage and all. I raised my two ACDs from literally birth, and love them to bits, baggage and all. It is a crapshoot no matter how you slice it.

Go for good genes, and good breeding, and you're going to stack the deck in your favor, but ultimately with a pup you never know, whereas with an older dog you're well aware of what "flaws" you're getting.

[LPacker79]

As equinelaw said above, yes malamutes are listed as dangerous dogs to some insurance companies. I think this is BS because I find that small dogs are more dangerous.

I just recently learned that some insurance companies put Sibes on that list as well! :eek: I couldn't believe it! I know when we were apartment hunting after moving that we had to bypass several places because they prohibited Sibes. Since where we go Poseidon goes, that just wasn't going to work for us. I always thought they were on the prohibited list because of the hair, but now I'm wondering.

I mean, a Sibe? Dangerous?

[Equine Obsession]

Our labs have always been fantastic. Our female just crossed the bridge over the summer at 16 years old.

Her whole life she was around horses, was obedient and caring, intelligent, learned fast and was surprisingly protective. If anyone suspicious came...She would have her hackles raised and growl.

Our male was even more protective. In a bad way kind of. The neighbor's dogs (Rotties sadly trained to attack, and some German Shepards) would fight him. He was quite territorial. And he'd try to bite one neighbor (the one with the Rotties) when he would try to come on our property drunk. FANTASTIC on protection, but maybe too overly protective. You need to be careful of what they've been bred for.

Our female was very good. Males seem to be a little unpredictable with most breeds. And our lab puppy we recently got has been learning very well what to do and what NOT to do around the horses.

Our neighbor has Leonbergers. The are also wonderful dogs for protection and around horses.

[equinelaw]

I think maybe to an insurance company a dog that looks sort of like a wolf and seems to often be anywhere but home is a risk. I will say this--insurance people know their stats--but that doesn't say anything about an idividual dog. It mostly says something about people who get dogs based on no research and lots of Disney Movies. Not our crowd:D

Every Akita I have known was a danger to ther animals but not humans. If I were an insurance comapny, I'd take theat potential risk into account becuase it would effect my bottom line, but I might have one at home playing with my baby too.

When I was 3 I was biten by a Golden Retreiver. Probably the only person on earth to get a bite from one--ever--but in the bigger picture its no risk dog for an insurer. Doesn't mean it didn't hurt me, but in general it doesn't hurt them$$$$$$.

I have had Pit Bulls, Dobies, GSD and most of the rest at one point or another and I love the dogs--but the garbage that goes with them can be off putting. Neighbors think your dog is trying to KILL their child if it is just barking from YOUR side of the fence. AC comes and takes your dog for no reason. Insurance companies throw fits. Its almost imnpossible to defend a dog formt the "wrong" breed. Its prejudice through and through--but its a reality.

I took my Pits every where with me and called them Stafordshire Terriers. Kids and adults of all ages would thow their arms around them and hug them. Complete strangers wanted to take them home. Perhaps spme of you remeber them from wayyyy back in the 80s' in matching green sweaters at all the VA steeple chases? Yep, that was a Pit bull your kid plopped down on. If I had said Pit Bull some idiot would have run screaming and sued me. AnyPlace Farm had the dogs for awhile, but the workers at her farm were so terrified of them she had to bring them back. Its all in the perception.

I think in a perfect world we would all get the dog of our dreams, but in this world perceptions can break your heart of the wrong idiot decides your Rottie is a menice becuase he saw 20/20 last week!

1 dog of any breed will rarely hurt a horse of any size, so I wouldn't worry about that. I would worry about what they were bred for. Herding? Chasing? Hunting? They all are different but somewhat predictable. Serotonin levels and number of brain receptors are bred into differing breeds for differing tasks.

For some reason even a single cross can make a totally different dog. A Boarder CollieX might not herd at all and a dobie/pointer doesn't scare anyone becuase they have no idea of its ancestery.

I love love love puppies but if I had to have a dog that fit into a certain lifestyle, I might want to go find THAT dog and not a type of dog.

My Heeler was wonderful for my lifestyle, but to be honest she was a rescue case. We had to rescue her owner from her and they had to pay me $300 a month to keep her until I got so attached they could wean me off the funds:) Just like with horses its all about SUITABILITY and individual differences:D

[blue&blond]

I've had a few of the breeds listed here. Quick notes on each one.

GSD - I had him when I was single, no kids and no other animals. Probably the best dog I've ever had (in some ways). Very attentive, lived to "follow orders". However, now with kids and lots of other animals I wouldn't even consider owning one. He went after small dogs like they were his prey and could scale a 5 foot fence as if it wasn't there. I shutter to think if a kid had wandered into my yard.

Dobbie - A female, super kind and sweet. Good property guard and would bark and look scary. As someone else mentioned, she didn't like being cold.

Right now I have a female Lab and a female Dalmatian. They are quite a pair and are great "alert" dogs. If you live anywhere near me, you'll know who I am now! ;)

The truth is, most people tell me they wouldn't think of stepping foot on my property without me or a family member there. They appear that agressive and protect the property that well. Neither one bother the horses or the cats at all.

I will add one more thing about Dalmatians. I've NEVER met one that was friendly to strangers. In fact, I've almost been bit twice in my life by a dog, both times it was a Dalmatian. <Go figure that I'd end up owning one.> She was not my choice of dogs but found her in the pound as a youngster and she was so scared, pratically dove into my daughters arms - we just had to take her home.

I can't speak for others since she's the only Dalmatian I've had but she's a LOVER to the family but not friendly to strangers.

Many people told me that they've heard they are really stupid dogs. Either I got lucky or that's a misconception because she's actually smarter then my Lab, listens better and learned faster.

[snkstacres]

I loved reading this thread, I love dogs of all breeds and have known or owned each breed mentioned here. Today though, all I have are the strays that stay. A border collie mix, a bassett hound, and Truck, the cocker mix. But, I take in many strays here as a foster home for Petfinders. Each of these dogs, whatever there breed works out just fine with the cats, horses, chikens, pigs etc. etc. I have a cat who trains the dogs, ask Chocomare. I have a mule who trains the dogs to horses. No one chases her friends or she stomps them. They learn quickly. I love all the breeds mentioned, I have seen good ones of each breed. I have also seen bad ones. While genetics will play a big part here, nothing will play a bigger part than the person who owns it. A well socialized dog of any breed will do well with other animals and people. A well loved dog will instinctively protect an owner or property from harm, they sense it. And I have never had a dog lie to me yet. I think any breed of dog can adjust to horses and farm life, my daughter has pomeranians and you should see them with horses. And hey, harm there mommy and you will know what a quick terror they can be. My vote will be, the dog who needs you most. Whatever breed. A rescue gives back, thats all I can really say. Nothing has ever given me more and I doubt ever will. And about the Bassett, he is great with horses, not so fast mind you. Behind a closed door, you think you are dealing with a giant dog. And when challenged by a not so nice intruder, they pack on heck of a bite. They just happen to be on short legs is all. Any breed of a good dog is alright by me. I love every one mentioned here so far.

[Bluey]

We took all our well trained dogs, that did tricks also, to nursing homes and as theraphy dogs as part of our performance dog club's activities.

When we had dobies, the old residents thought they were black greyhounds, were not familiar with all the bad press dobies got later in the movies and TV, as "devil dogs".
They would tell us stories of having or knowing greyhounds, as they patted them on the head.
The nurses, on the other hand, were scared of them and so were some neighbors, that would not even come around without notice and asking us to put the dogs up.

So, you have to think if you really want a dog that will scare people by just looking at it, even friends and neighbors, for the little help it may be keeping the rare intruder away.

[carolprudm]

A good friend of mine has a Great Pyrenees and it is the dumbest dog.
Pyrs aren't dumb, they're Pyrs. They just aren't particularly attuned to humans. That's not their job. They were bred to be independent. They can certainly be trained but their brains aren't wired to be particularly responsive to human ideas. They always have a large part of their brain on a much bigger picture. Their job is their flock and it requires independence and self reliance.

[Calamber]

I have a female Chesapeake Bay Retriever and she neither drools nor smells badly, actually she rarely needs a bath and when she goes to the ocean I love to smell her coat because it reminds me of the beach. She was passed around from person to person and probably badly treated by a man but is a very devoted, funny intelligent dog. She is beautiful, darker red with rich golden eyes and sticks to me like a burr. She also is quite protective but does no more than challenge and bounce up and down telling most everyone to keep their distance until I say it is ok. She is looking for a home as I took her in to get her out of a back yard kennel being fly food.:winkgrin:

Also, she is on the smaller side, about 60 lbs and Chessie's are one of the longer living larger dogs and
her coat does not shed like the German Shepherd which is the only reason I would not have a GSD as
I absolutely love them.

[MsM]

My guess about the Sibes and Malamutes being on the insurance "no no" list would be because of their experience with claims for injuries to other animals - cats, rabbits and livestock.
IME they can be escape artists for the average owner and the males in particular will roam a lot. They also seem to have a high prey drive. I used to investigate damage to livestock and domestic animals. Husky type dogs were way over-represented as offenders.
Interesting how we all have our experiences with different breeds and the temperments we find offensive. I had very bad experience with Chessies and dont trust them. Dobies have mostly been kind - and when they are not it is obvious. Found a lot of fear issues with poorly bred/socialized GSDs and people tend to get bitten unexpectedly. But the good ones were wonderful. Cocker temperment also seem to have a lot of fear issues. I did have a Cocker who had a wonderful temperment. Good thing, because people are so stupid with small dogs! They swoop in in a "scary" manner and insist on petting the cute dog unless it is openly snarling! :eek: Lots of potential for fear bites there!
I tried to do it right with the last dog, but it goes to show that You Never Know. Researched breeds, found a reputable breeder of my breed of choice (Australian Shepherd) Small scale breeder showed and did obedience work. Met puppy's parents and had puppy temperment tested. Loved him dearly, but dog turned out to have more than a "slight tendency toward shyness". In spite of supppy socialization and obedience training, he had fear issues his entire life. Nipped my uncle when he startled him by sneezing :( Actually chewed through a window, glass and all, when frightened when alone at home. (Yes he was pretty cut up) I had to handle him carefully his entire life. Yep, its a crap shoot!

[Pony Fan]

I can say that many of the breeds mentioned are wonderful, smart confident dogs BUT....
These breeds of dogs need firm, discipline and training to establish their owners as Alpha. There is nothing more dangerous than a dominate breed allowed to dominate their family or other people. So, in your research, you should also be looking for a local AKC obedience club to get you and your new pup some training. And with a strong-willed breed, you want to start as early as puppy kindergarden class.

By the way, I have two champion dobermans who are excellent barn dogs with stable temperments and great intelligence. My male has a Rally title, his Canine Good Citizen title and is nearly done with his Companion Dog and Agility titles. In the late fall I expect him to pass his Therapy Dog certification. But I started obedience with him the day I got him at 10 weeks!

[MistyBlue]

Actually Sibes and mals are on most insurance company's No No list due to bites. In experienced hands...both can be great dogs. In the hands of the casual suburban dog owner...bad match. Both are too pack oriented and pushy and stubborn for the newbie dog owner or the dog owner who wants to come home from work, let the dog out for 5 minutes and call it a day. They need to have a job and they need to know and be constantly reminded that the human is the alpha. Otherwise they act and react like their genes are made for...like a pack animal. And they will protect their territory, their own personal space and their other lowly pack members. I love both those breeds but cringe when I see so many people buying them as first time dog owners...they're great dogs but not easy dogs. (plus who doesn't get the grins listening to a Malamute mumble, grumble and talk all day long, LOL)

For large dogs that will be in close contact with horses...don't cross a standard poodle off the list. They do not act like toy or miniature poodles and they only look stupid if you give them that weenie haircut. Otherwise they're tall handsome animals, smart as heck, relatively easy to train, protective enough without being psychotic about it and they don't shed or cause reactions in people with dog allergies. A standard poodle is an awesome large dog. :yes:

I have a GSD right now...he's a great, great dog. Wonderfully sweet and loving, protective but extremely obedient and not dangerous and just a joy to be around. I've noticed quite a few horse people have GSD's...they do have a strong chase and herd instinct and I'm not sure if mine is typical but he is so obedient (and submissive in personality) that if something catches his eye to chase all I have to do is make a kiss noise and he immediately returns to my side no matter what. However...I do keep my dog completely away from my horses...not because of his actions but because I happen to have a mare who hates dogs and will smush or stomp any that she can possibly get near. So for safety's sake...he stays in the yard and can't get anywhere near the barn or paddocks. (She'll even reach over a stall door and try to grab him if she's stalled and he comes in the barn, so I even stopped taking him down there for night feeding) So not sure if it's all GSDs since this is my first one, but if I had dog-tolerant horses then my GSD seems to be a good candidate for a barn dog.

[friendsofferdinand]

Great Dane... that's my vote. The bark rattles the windows, and they don't bark much. Mine doesn't bother the horses... it's more the other way around. To them, he's the funniest looking pony/baby they've ever seen. The mares mother him. It's hysterical!

[Lori]

Go to Leerburg.com and investigate their forums.

I have had several working farm dogs over the years. I worked personal protection for 10 years. A big dog is not necessarily going to protect you. It amazes me how many people think a dog will protect them. Do you want looks or REAL working protection.
If you are seriously looking for a protection dog, you need to do your research and locate a good breeder to either get a working pup and bring it along or an already started dog or even a finished one.

You are narrowing to two different breeds. GSD will be more of a working, herding instinct (not flock protecting per say) dog. They are high energy, need a JOB and are super fun and smart to work with. I loved mine!!!
The guardians, I chose by what would work best for my own situation. I had breeding goats, chickens and the horse/pony in the field. I also wanted to keep people out along with predators. They are independant workers. You put basic obedience on them so they understand you are head of the pack, but they are not dogs that will do tricks for treats. lol

My favorite breeds:


I have had Czech shepherds (stick with WORKING lines on GSD, NOT American or euro show lines, their instincts are messed up). I can guide you to the correct breeders or check out links on Leerburg. A working shepherd will need continued WORK during it's life. It is not a stick it in the field and watch it do it's job dog. They are herding dogs that work with people. There is A LOT of crap out there, so CAVEAT EMPTOR.

BUTTTTT..........

If you want protection that is aloof, will bark and guard the property, will guard the stock but not chase or herd (keep in mind that if you are getting a pup, it is up to YOU to set the boundaries), then a livestock guardian dog is the ticket. There are different levels of these, too. I had Akbash and Central Asian Shepherds. The CAS is a serious protector and unless you have had working dogs, I do not recommend them as a first time dog. The Akbash bonds with the stock more and views you as a part of the property to protect. Stay away from cheaply bred mixes and breeders who do not know their animals genetics. I stayed away from Great Pyr and maremma due to the fact that the AKC show stuff has watered down the instincts. I did not locate a ytotal WORKING line breeder. Choose a real genetically bred working dog for your needs, not a pretty pet. The breeders will screen you, take your needs into account and then send you the right pup to meet these needs. They also provide backing, help and guidance as you raise the dog. ANY breeder who does NOT provide this is not one to deal with.

Seriously, from what you describe, I would suggest Akbash for your fields. I can forward you to a great breeder in KS where I got mine. Sometimes, you can get older working dogs. The pups are started on the stock you want them to be with and they are started on socializing with KIDS and ADULTS (very important to do this in these breeds). I know you joked about them snacking on kids, but in all seriousness, these dogs WILL hurt someone and it is your repsonsibility to make them balanced.

If you start with a dog of ANY breed, get ready to dedicate at LEAST a year to training them and guiding them. ANYONE who tells you to just stick the dog with the stock and nature will take over is IGNORANT. You must guide a pup, then when that dog is finished out, you can have it help to guide a second one along. LGD's work best in PAIRS, male and female.

Care: combing is done with one of those shedding combs in spring and fall or as needed on mats. You can ask for a not so plush coated one if you prefer. My Akbash stayed white on her own. I rarely had to give her a bath. The CAS had a thicker coat, so I'd do the dematting every week or so. Not a big deal.

Socialize, socialize, socialize....take the dog out in that 12 to 15 week period of it's age (formative stage), let it meet town stuff, noises, people, whatever. It will NOT make the dog overly nice. Not socializing these dogs WILL make them fearful and unbalanced.

LGD's are amazing, amazing, wonderful dogs. I wish I had not had to give mine up in the divorce, farm sale, but I WILL have them again!!!


If you want, PM me and I can send you links to the breeders and sites for Akbash.
:)




I'm considering which dog to acquire for my project farm. Points to consider:

Large. I like large, and large also serves protection functions, keeps up with horses, etc. I do not want a small animated muff. I don't want yapyapyapyapyapyap. I want something with a "you're on my turf, and you'd better have a darned good reason" BARK.

Protective. I am a single woman. My aging single mother lives in my back yard. We'd like something that, if Jack the Ripper comes to call one day, would be some help in defense. For the same reason, and just for my personality, I'd like something that doesn't view the whole wide world as an immediate friend. Aloof for legit strangers, a bit of a threat for the less-legit. I don't have kids, never will, and don't care if the dog snacks on stray kids.

Pretty. Aesthetic points aren't the most crucial, granted, but I want a face I'd like to see every day for the next many, many years. This point has removed the Mastiff from consideration. :)

Horses. Must protect the horses, not chase, pester, etc. Must realize that the horses are part of the responsibility for a good guard dog. I breed and will often have foals. Must be foal-friendly or foal-neutral.

It will be trained, and I have friends both local and internet who are serious dog trainers and will be there for help/advice.

So far, my leading candidates on preliminary breed research seem to be Great Pyrenees (but how many hours a day do they need to be combed?) and German Shepherds. One of my dog friends breeds Shepherds, and she has waxed eloquent on the positives and negatives. I'm aware of everything that has been done wrong to them by inbreeding, but could avoid this with her help, and she maintains that if you select most carefully and train right, a good GSD is the ultimate.

Thoughts? Other breed suggestions? What are your awesome farm dogs? How do they get along with your horses? What dogs have you have bad experiences with on a horse farm? Also, do you have preferences for male/female (assume that the dog is spayed/neutered), and why?

[Lori]

Originally Posted by skrgirl
A good friend of mine has a Great Pyrenees and it is the dumbest dog.

Pyrs aren't dumb, they're Pyrs. They just aren't particularly attuned to humans. That's not their job. They were bred to be independent. They can certainly be trained but their brains aren't wired to be particularly responsive to human ideas. They always have a large part of their brain on a much bigger picture. Their job is their flock and it requires independence and self reliance.


Not a surprise to me. Most Pyrs are watered down here in the USA. Originally, yes, they were bred to flock protect, but most have messed up instincts and do not perform as well as the Akbash or CAS now that the "make it pretty" show people started breeding them without working them, too. Just because it is a Pyr does not make it a good LGD.

[Lori]

I can say that many of the breeds mentioned are wonderful, smart confident dogs BUT....
These breeds of dogs need firm, discipline and training to establish their owners as Alpha. There is nothing more dangerous than a dominate breed allowed to dominate their family or other people. So, in your research, you should also be looking for a local AKC obedience club to get you and your new pup some training. And with a strong-willed breed, you want to start as early as puppy kindergarden class.

By the way, I have two champion dobermans who are excellent barn dogs with stable temperments and great intelligence. My male has a Rally title, his Canine Good Citizen title and is nearly done with his Companion Dog and Agility titles. In the late fall I expect him to pass his Therapy Dog certification. But I started obedience with him the day I got him at 10 weeks!


GAAAA!!! nonononononono. LOL
CGC means NOTHING to working breeds. Been there, seen that. I knew a bouvier that got its CGC and then began biting the owner as it matured because of the "halti" training people telling her to only use a flat collar and to "turn her back and ignore the dog" when it did something wrong. It took her getting with a correct working dog trainer and a prong collar to get the dog back in line. And now she works well. This was work I had advised her to do from the start, along with a good trainer and she felt "sorry" for the dog and then look what happened. Could have saved a lot of grief to just do the right thing.

I do agree on some of your points, but the truth is ALL dogs need to be trained to understand we are the alphas. I see more out of control little ankle biters and medium dogs than large ones.

No offense on your dobes, but "champion" dobes are not working dobes. Sadly, you won't find a good working dobe in the USA. I am talking real old working lines here, not USA bred show dogs.......

AKC is NOT a starting point for working dogs. You will NOT get a good working dog to be a therapy dog. AKC training does NOT work for the LGD's and even my Czech shepherd would have laughed at it. I have known people to be hurt taking the wrong training advise, so in all seriousness, you need a working dog trainer, not an AKC class.

[LPacker79]

My guess about the Sibes and Malamutes being on the insurance "no no" list would be because of their experience with claims for injuries to other animals - cats, rabbits and livestock.
IME they can be escape artists for the average owner and the males in particular will roam a lot. They also seem to have a high prey drive. I used to investigate damage to livestock and domestic animals. Husky type dogs were way over-represented as offenders.

I never even considered that as a reason they'd be on the "bad dog" list! I was thinking that list only applied to people, not small furry prey animals. When Poseidon zeros in on a prey animal, I disappear from his thought process entirely (he's always on leash outside of course). It can be a cat sitting completely still 200 yards away, but he sees it. He gets that "stalking" stance......head low, body crouched, completely intent. He has gotten ahold of stray cats, one of which was found dead, and the other was found in his mouth alive, but with a punctured lung (we took kitty to the vet, got her patched up, vet found her a home). I wouldn't trust him around a small critter at all, under any circumstances. Other dogs are different. Big, small, he loves them all. I just wish he wouldn't insist on trying to be friends with the local chow mix that wants to chew his face off.

As for escape artists.....yep, they most definitely are! I know many Sibe owners who have gone to extreme lengths to keep their dogs contained. Burying cement and chicken wire so they can't dig out, some even stringing hot wire a foot off the ground and a foot from the top of the fence to stop digging and climbing out. Them getting a zap may not sound nice, but it's better than them ending up under a car or shot by a local farmer.

It's always something to be aware of with one of these guys!

[dressagetraks]

Thanks, all. Great ideas here. I'm looking to do research, contact breeders, screen, etc., this winter and get a dog next spring.

About socializing, training, and time/responsibility commitment, I do work at home, so I'm around almost all the time, and I'm absolutely not underestimating the time involved here. And I do intend to get with a working dog trainer. I actually enjoy this endless detailed painstaking work toward the ultimate end but it taking a good long time to get there. I do love dressage, after all. :) I've never yet had a large dog, but I do have the personality to deal with them, I think, and I am a total believer in expert help, which I will listen to. I look forward to the process as well as the end, including living with any mistakes I make, and learning from them.

But fear not, I'm not going to do this on my own, and I'm not looking for a dog with an "off switch" that I can interact with one hour a day and stick outside the rest of the time unsupervised just to "guard the place."

[IsolaBella09]

Labs. Loving, protecting, the "your on my turf" bark, playful, good with animals

at least that's what my 11- month old puppy does.

[PNWjumper]

www.bernese.com
(my breeder's website)

We just lost our Bernese Mountain Dog and he was the most wonderful farm dog EVER! No prey drive (so no going after the horses, the neighbors ducks and chickens, the deer that run our fence line, etc.), major protectiveness and looked like he would KILL anyone who came into our fence, but actually a big babydoll and never bit anyone or anything (though I'm the first to admit that he was a DOG and I warned everyone who came through the gate that I didn't know what he would do---just wanted to say that because I'm NOT one of those people who says "oh my dog would never bite"). He was big and beautiful and the most devoted companion dog I ever could have asked for. As far as the breed goes he was higher energy than most, but he still spent much of his time lying at my feet in the house and in the barn. He came with me out in the horse pastures and never was inclined to nip at the horses' heels (unlike my shelties, golden retrievers, and friends' australian shepards). We're getting a new berner puppy in december and I hope he measures up to half of what our old one was. The breeder raises them on her farm and I've never met one of hers that I didn't just adore temperment and behavior wise.

The only downside to berners is that they shed A LOT and we were constantly having to vacuum the black mat of hair off of the floor. It doesn't help, of course, that we also had a husky and have a malamute mix that contribute white hair to that mix.....guess we just gave up on caring if there was hair in the house :lol: The other tough part is that most of the good berner breeders have long waiting lists to get puppies.

In response to those who posted about northern breeds (huskies and malamutes) I would never recommend them for farm life. Where most dogs will wander about a mile away from home, huskies and malamutes will go 25-50 before feeling like they should come back. On top of that they have a huge prey drive and aren't typically trustworthy with farm animals (I'm not saying ALL....some certainly don't possess that trait, but it's hard to know beforehand which those are). Our husky was the worst farm dog ever......she was my husband's baby and he didn't think she would ever do anything wrong. After catching and killing one of our cats and then a neighbor's duck on our first day on the farm (both in a total of about 2 minutes off leash/out of the yard), she then went after my pony the first chance she got. She was a wonderful loving dog otherwise, and protected our neices and nephews (and infant son before she died) with her life and NEVER even THOUGHT about acting aggressively towards a human, but forget about it around other animals. Our malamute mix is better, but we think he's mixed with some shepard and has more of that shepard attitude. Neither were good guard dogs....we used to joke that if it were left up to them they'd invite in burglars and help them find the good stuff in the house :lol: I sure miss having my "barker" berner around....it was nice always knowing when someone was here!

Whatever you choose, good luck!

[MontanaDun]

No one has mentioned them, but one of the best "protector" dogs I have ever had was a Gordon Setter.

They are beautiful dogs, imposing enough (black dogs just seem more impressive), generally you aren't going to see the chasing/herding issue you get with herding breeds, huge bark, extremely loyal.

OUr particular gal was great about noticing and letting out a few huge woofs when strangers came on the farm. She knew our boarders vehicles and didn't bark at them. She would also bark and let us know if a horse got loose!

Mags was a rescue. I have Cardigan corgis now, but when they pass on would definitely consider adding another Gordon to the dog collection. She came to us with the information that she would run away and roam, and I have heard that the breed can be inclined that way, but she totally knew where she lived when she was with us and was super about staying on the farm. (we have the place electronically dog fenced now, but didn't at the time).

Anyway - another thought for you!

MD

[LPacker79]

Actually Sibes and mals are on most insurance company's No No list due to bites. In experienced hands...both can be great dogs. In the hands of the casual suburban dog owner...bad match. Both are too pack oriented and pushy and stubborn for the newbie dog owner or the dog owner who wants to come home from work, let the dog out for 5 minutes and call it a day. They need to have a job and they need to know and be constantly reminded that the human is the alpha. Otherwise they act and react like their genes are made for...like a pack animal. And they will protect their territory, their own personal space and their other lowly pack members. I love both those breeds but cringe when I see so many people buying them as first time dog owners...they're great dogs but not easy dogs. (plus who doesn't get the grins listening to a Malamute mumble, grumble and talk all day long, LOL)

Sibes tend to be happy go lucky, love everybody type dogs. Mals are a little harder, but Sibes are way easy going. Guard dogs they are not. My Poseidon is a rescue, who was purchased by someone who thought he would make a guard dog. When that didn't happen the "man" (and I use that term loosely) thought he could beat him into being a guard dog. Despite all that, he's still a typical love everybody Sibe. They definitely need training just like any other dog, they're independent free thinkers who have a brain and use it. They're not a biddable breed by any means LOL. Many people accuse them of being "stupid" but I always ask those people...."Which one is more stupid? The one that does everything you ask without question, or the one who thinks for himself and makes his own decision?" Sure, the latter can be more frustrating, but when you click with them I think it makes it all the more satisfying.

I volunteer with a Sibe rescue, and I see a lot of dogs who've been through so much and by all rights should have temperament issues.....but they don't. A Sibe should never act aggressively towards a person or another dog no matter the circumstances. Sure those dogs exist as there's always an exception to the rule, but it's rare.

It's not unusual for me to take Poseidon out and have kids come running and screaming down the hill and congregate around him. I mean running full speed and not stopping until they've got their grubby little mitts on him. There was one day I had 7 kids hugging and loving on Po, with the youngest being 4 years old. He loves it, can't get enough. I on the other hand can get a bit annoyed if I'm in a bit of a hurry. Sometimes having the favorite dog in the neighborhood can get a bit tedious LOL!

I do understand what you're saying though, as so many dogs end up in rescue because people don't do their research. They see the cute fluffy puppy and fall in love. I saw this recently over the spring with a young family in my apartment complex. They got a cute little Sibe puppy because the husband's friend had one and he liked the looks of the dog. After having a few conversations with him it was pretty obvious he knew nothing about the breed at all. Guess what? I haven't seen that puppy in several months now and I suspect they gave him up.

[PNWjumper]

As for escape artists.....yep, they most definitely are! I know many Sibe owners who have gone to extreme lengths to keep their dogs contained. Burying cement and chicken wire so they can't dig out, some even stringing hot wire a foot off the ground and a foot from the top of the fence to stop digging and climbing out. Them getting a zap may not sound nice, but it's better than them ending up under a car or shot by a local farmer.

It's always something to be aware of with one of these guys!


LOL! Before I met my husband his Sibe used to scramble over the EIGHT FOOT FENCE (solid wood, vertical slat) in the backyard! :eek: Up until she was about 2 years old he had to chain her to a stump in the backyard to keep her in (for the same reasons you mentioned above--to avoid having her eat neighborhood cats and end up put to sleep) and even then there was a huge trench from where she pulled the GIANT stump around the yard 50+ times a day. And that was even with a lot of exercise time out in the woods when he and his buddies would go dirtbiking every day. Needless to say they've got a TREMENDOUS amount of energy as youngsters! :lol:

[carolprudm]

Livestock Guard Dogs are NOT pets. They are meant to stay outside, live in the barn and guard the farm. Their owner should be one more critter they are responsible for, but not a buddy or playmate. They should come when called, walk on a leash and ride in a car with no anxiety attacks and allow the owner to clip toenails and remove the worst of the mats (my pyrs never got really matted but would get into burrs)

[Bluey]

When you look for a place and trainer to work with, check several of them out, don't settle for the first one that has a good speech about their training.

As you have heard, there are all kinds of training, from shutzhund, that is rather rare in the USA and requires much work for the life of the dog, to herding for trials, that is completely different and requires a dog with a minimum of gathering kind of herding instinct, to all other kinds out there.

The one kind of performance training the AKC and several other dog registries use and organize shows for, like obedience, rally, agility and many others, start with the bare basics and will get your dog under control and on it's way as a good social being, used to working around all kinds of dogs and people.

That is the kind of training our dog club offers to the public, that in the more advanced classes is then geared for showing.
The basic classes are puppy, household manners, clicker fun, backyard agility, etc. and thru all those classes you mostly learn to become a team with your dog and your dog learns to listen to you and do what you say.

Most local trainers of all kinds, shutzhund, herding, field trials (hunting dogs) send their rank beginners thru some of our classes, before they start their specific training.

Once you have your dog, just as you would not generally start learning to ride by going to take lessons from an olympic clinician, but your local basic riding school, you should think about checking your basic dog training centers and see what they offer to you.

[dressagetraks]

One way this thread has already changed my thinking is to lean more away from the Livestock Guardian Breeds, for just that reason. I want something more interactive and bonded to ME, not just viewing me as part of the job. Still researching all, but Pyrs and other LGDs are dropping in consideration.

[LLDM]

No one has mentioned them, but one of the best "protector" dogs I have ever had was a Gordon Setter.

They are beautiful dogs, imposing enough (black dogs just seem more impressive), generally you aren't going to see the chasing/herding issue you get with herding breeds, huge bark, extremely loyal.

We also have a Gorden Setter as a farm dog. Might fit the bill for you well. Very beautiful, great "motion detectors", impressive bark and doesn't chase or herd. I would go with a male though, as both females I've had can get a little bit neurotic as they age. Look for working dog lines.

Another, that is great is an English setter, although they are smaller and light colored - so not as intimidating at first glance. But great dogs to have around horses and home. Smart and loyal. Also high energy.

I would not recommend an Irish Setter, though. Honestly, I've never met a smart one. Lovable - absolutely. They remind me of kooky TB's. :winkgrin:

Also, I agree with Misty - don't discount large breed poodles! We had a pair of black royal standards for many years who were truly wonderful dogs! Although they were not raised around horses or a farm (they came with hubby), they adapted to country life and horses very, very well. Although they don't shed, they do need to be clipped. And they tend to bring a lot of "stuff" in from the outside (hay, shavings, stickers, etc.). I call it the "velcro effect". Smart, sweet, protective if you feel threatened.

SCFarm

[Mrsmph]

My Great Pyrenese was the best for all around guarding and looking tough. And no drool either....

[equinelaw]

I think taking into consideration that OP is an experienced horse person, does have the time and situation to train and care for a dog, and probably is experienced with a pair of clippers--almost any dog will work out for her.

What she really needs ro research is the GENETIC defeacts in certain breeds. Mostly, all the best training inthe worl dwill not overcome some of the behavioral problems that run in certain breeds.

Here are some of the one's I have run across with great frequnecy and also are the dogs who make the research studies on behavioe since they are pretty easy to find.

Dobes--Lick granulomas. They have a gene that causes them to lick holes into themselves just like a horse cribbing.

GSD--fear of loud noisies. I think they dropped off the insurance lists becuase a large portion of them are spening most of their days cowering under something becuase they are afraid of thunderstorms, garbage trucks, stereos. . . .

New fangled "gaurd dogs from other countries". The breeders who advertise these dogs as "great family protectors" are ususally breeding for "killer dogs" and their switch from scare away intruders to EAT instuders can sometimes be broken. They make GREAT animals for Columbian drug lords.

Bull Terriers--tail chasing. Unitlt he drop dead becuase they can't stop.

All working hound breeds--no relationship to regular dogs at all and not anything like horses. This somewhat confuses a new hound owner as the usual psychology methods fail. In fact, the only method that works well from age 0-7 is to have the run about 20-30 miles a day. For some people that works into their lifestyle--for others its not possible.

Sight Hounds--wonderful dogs. Not for begginers. Much more like cats then dogs. Takes a certain person to appreciate a sight hound.

Springer Spaineils--rage syndrome

Giant Snauzers--rage syndrome

Dalmations--fear biting and deafness

Those are some of the behavioral problems Physical probalems can include:

GSD, Dobie. Rottie, Great dane ect ect--OCD and hip dysplaisa. Just like fast growing large horses fast growing large dogs can have every joint go bad.

Labs--thyroid problems

Greyhounds--cancer

Dog with size, temperment, no genitic defects, trainiablilty, enough agression to be useful but not enough for liabilty, no herding instinct, happy to be either out on the trails on laying at your feet for a week of rain????? All the traits you are looking for??? Standard Poddle.
The SP is from a long line of hunting a retrieving dogs. They are bred to sit and wait until something needs retriving. Then they became pets, so on top of the good hunting stock intelligence and ease of human interatcion was bred for too. You end up with a super smart dog of failry good size that can be trained to be anything you want--but doesn't come with a pre-set of hardwiring you have to untrain.
They don't drool, they dont shed, the don't have any allergies that run in the breed, the don't herd, the dont run away. . ..they adapt to living in a park avenue apartment as well as to living on a ranch.

You just take your horse clippers and keep em shaved down all summer amd let them grow out in the coldest months of the winter.

Really great all around dogs that will become whatever you want them to. Some--and not many-are big chicken sh%ts, but finding a good puppy from a breeder that has both parents and lots of referaneces can avoid that.

I know--its hard to see yourself as a "Poodle" owner, but a Standard Poodle is a really great big dog. Shave em down and you can't tell what breed it is anyway:)

Or. . .if you have a whimsical streak you can make it look any way you want or any color! Get a white one and you can have Zebra stripes or pink or die it to match your barn colors or horse.

Out of the many 1,000's of dogs I've known only 2 of the Standard Poodles were nuts. I susually don't recoment the breed becuase most people dont want to spend the $$$$$$$$ for regular grooming, but OP sounds like someone who can use a pair of clippers.

And although large dogs, SP have also been bred for longevity. They live to 12-15 years of active useful life. That 2x as long as most large breed dogs.

Are they scary??? I have been chased onto my grooming table my vicsious little toy poodles. An angry poodle is no joke:D Don't let the froo froo haircuts fool you. Under all that hair is the closest dog to a human you can get--but still dog enough to live to please you!

Just consider it. Go meet a few. Check out a BB for SP owners. Don't feel it makes you a girly girl to just look. . . . . . . .:winkgrin:

[Bluey]

I know of two small standard poodles that worked on a mountain ranch and helped drive/work cattle.
They would jump on the horses and ride when tired.:)

Springer spaniels were the first dogs to be diagnosed and studied with rage syndrome.
They are, as most spaniels, apt to have allergies and ear infections.
They are otherwise nice dogs, but definitively not any kind of guard dog.
Most won't even alarm bark.

There is no breed without some kind of general tendency to be less than healthy and the mixes of course can have whatever the original breeds may have.

The best bet if you want a sound and healthy dog is to get a grown one you can tell is ok, as far as can be determined then, or get one, puppy or adult, from a very good breeder that has proven PERFORMANCE dogs in their breed.

Even then, as with everything else in life, there are no guarantees that you or your dog will live a long, healthy life.;)

[LPacker79]

My suggestion would be to make sure both parents (and grandparents if possible) have been genetically tested and cleared of whatever genetic defects that particular breed is known to have. Hip dysplasia, cardiomyopethy and other heart problems, thyroid, progressive retinal atrophy, etc.

This would up your chances of having a healthy dog in the future.

[BabyPhat]

I don't have kids, never will, and don't care if the dog snacks on stray kids.

Wow, that's really rude in my opinion.

[Tha Ridge]

You know, my first thought was GSD as well, but now that someone has mentioned it, I, too, think a Standard Poodle is just what you're looking for. I was good friends with someone whose family bred them - they are fantastic. Highly trainable, very pretty, intelligent, good size and just enough protection. They win my vote.

My second vote goes to Dobermans. Smart, loyal and gorgeous.

[dressagetraks]

Hmmm. The only poodle I've ever known was bad tempered, unreliable, destructive, chased cats, undoubtedly would have chased horses if horses were around, and is the only dog to have bitten me. However, obviously, he must not have been a standard poodle, as what you are describing physically, as well as otherwise, is totally different. This one wasn't over a foot high. Mean little chewer, he was, and snappish. I have no doubt that he would have been a bad individual example of any breed. I think he had paranoid schizophrenia.

I'll add standard poodles to the list to be looked into. Must be something TOTALLY different than Boots to get my attention, though.

[equinelaw]

I think, unlike with most breeds, with a Poodle you really do start off with a blank slate. They are what you trian them to be. The smaller they are, the less training they tend to get.

At least you have experienced the awsome power of the fearsome poodle! Groom it to have a mowhawk and you'll never be bothered by dangerous people:D

I don't think OP meant to be rude when she said "snack on children" but sometimes a little nip can do some kids good--but she was just kidding. Only someone who has actually been BITTEN by a dog can understand the bonecrunching fleash ripping mess they can make. Most of us have never really been biten or we surely wouldn't have dogs!

I have been nipped by many a toy poodle, but I can testify for them that is WAS all their owners fault! Foo foo was never trained to do anything, so why not do anything they want? Luckly, SP are somewhat rare, so they haven't been overbred or Petshopped into some other horrible breed.

[cholmberg]

This is a subject I've been giving a LOT of thought to, as when we finish our farm (if that ever happens at this point). . then we will be getting a dog (or a pair) for the same reasons as the OP. Except that I do have two small children.

I cannot have the GPs or the Bernese. . I would think it cruel to keep them down here in our brutal summers (coastal MS). I do not want a long haired dog, and I have a distaste growing on hatred for the herding dogs. I've seen THREE GSD's get their jaws broken from being kicked by horses (used to work in a vet clinic, one I saw it happen) because they refused to stop chasing the horses. None of the dogs were mine and none of them lived. Right now at the barn the owner has some sort of heelers and they chase those horses every. f'ing. day. They'll lay off if the owner tells them to, but if he's not around they chase and aggravate plenty, I've seen them chase my two plenty of times. They've been kicked plenty and always go back for more. The horses are used to it, but it still drives me nuts and I keep rooting for a horse to knock one into the middle of next week. And I do not care for labs or other traditional gundogs. And actually, one of our best dogs was a mini dachshund. Man that was a lot of dog packed into a little body! Hard headed and willful though. And hardly intimidating.. . .

My short list is:

Rhodesian Ridgebacks. . but I know little about the breed except what I've read.
Great Dane. . .but worry about lifespan (kids get attached to dogs), and some neighbors of mine had some and the slobber was astonishing. :eek: and they are all bark, no bite. Although it's a pretty fearsome bark.
Dobie/Rottie. . while I'd really .love to have a well-bred member of either breed, I don't think my insurance will permit it.
Boxer. . every one I've met has been a slightly aloof, quiet individual that was well bonded to its owner.
Standard Poodle. . . I've only met a few of these, but I really liked them, and they can be kept clipped short. I do -not- like the mini/toy poodles, but I did like the standard ones.
Mastiff. . but again the slobber thing is something I'd like to avoid if I can.
Mountain View cur. . . read some very interesting stuff about this new breed, but haven't met any.

I don't want something that I have to pick out of my a** every second, and is a quivering ball of spastic activity. The dog(s) will be taken to obedience classes and will get training and boundries, and the place will have a perimeter fence, as well as a fenced yard. But temperment is important. First and foremost they will be pets.

[AHorseSomeDay]

Also in regards to Sibes and Mals, a lot of people mistaken my mal for a sibe. There is an easy way to tell the difference. Sibes can have both blue and brown eyes or one of each. Mal can ONLY have brown eyes. Mals eyes are an almond color. Another way to tell the difference is mals are bigger and have a bigger chest.

Yes, sibe and mals both pull sleds. Mals were bred to pull heavy freight and sibes were bred to to pull sleds at a faster pace.

Mals = the Clysdales of the dog world.
Sibes = the TBs of the dog world.

It is very annoying when people ask me if he is a husky or worst they think he is a wolf.
Mals are perhaps one of the closest dogs to wolves.

As a poster said, mals and sibes are extremely intelligent. They are often labeled as stupid because they are harder to trainer. If you command them to do something, their way of thinking is, "If I do this what is in it for me or what do I get from this? "

Also mals need to be very well socialized with every kind of people, animals, dogs, cats, etc. and mals
tend to get dog aggressive as they become older no matter how well they've been socialized with dogs when they were young.

There are a lot of people out there who shouldn't own animals. I believe that it's the person who brings out the worst in animals. For example, I have never met a mean Pit Bull. I think they are great dogs. I love animals but I have a strong dislike for JRTs because I was attacked by a pack of 5 of them from someone's property walking back to my car. I still bear the scars on my legs. :no:

I am a member of a really good website called Wildpaws Alaskan Malamutes http://www.wildpaw.com/forum/index.php It's a great forum to learn more about the breed and I've been a member on there for 7 years now.

[LPacker79]

Also in regards to Sibes and Mals, a lot of people mistaken my mal for a sibe. There is an easy way to tell the difference. Sibes can have both blue and brown eyes or one of each. Mal can ONLY have brown eyes. Mals eyes are an almond color. Another way to tell the difference is mals are bigger and have a bigger chest.

Absolutely. I can look at a Sibe and a Mal and see a difference just in the face and ears alone. Mals have subtly different shaped ears that are wider apart on their skull. Of course the obvious difference would be size.


It is very annoying when people ask me if he is a husky or worst they think he is a wolf.


Ah yes, I've had a man walk past my (white) Sibe and say "nice wolf!" I was so dumbfounded I just kind of stared at him.

A month or so ago someone asked me if my Sibe was a Great Pyrenees! That was just so preposterous that I was speechless for the first 30 seconds. My Sibe is a whopping 55lbs LOL. There's really no comparison just on that basis alone. Then you add in the coat differences, skull shape, and the EARS! Pyr ears flop, Sibe ears stand. Basically the only possible similarity between my Sibe and a Pyr was that Poseidon is white.

[AHorseSomeDay]

Absolutely. I can look at a Sibe and a Mal and see a difference just in the face and ears alone. Mals have subtly different shaped ears that are wider apart on their skull. Of course the obvious difference would be size.




Ah yes, I've had a man walk past my (white) Sibe and say "nice wolf!" I was so dumbfounded I just kind of stared at him.

A month or so ago someone asked me if my Sibe was a Great Pyrenees! That was just so preposterous that I was speechless for the first 30 seconds. My Sibe is a whopping 55lbs LOL. There's really no comparison just on that basis alone. Then you add in the coat differences, skull shape, and the EARS! Pyr ears flop, Sibe ears stand. Basically the only possible similarity between my Sibe and a Pyr was that Poseidon is white.

I know that is so annoying. I can also easily tell the difference by looking at the head first. :) I once had a little boy run screaming to his parents,"Wolf, Look ma there's a wolf." :rolleyes:

LOL. I once had someone ask me if my mal was an Akita. That was a first. I had a laugh at that one.

:lol:If I had a sibe, I would also be speechless if someone asked me if my sibe was a pyr. :lol:They don't even look closely alike.

[Bluey]

This dog site is owned and moderated by professional dog trainers with titles in many dog events.
Some of them are nationally recognized trainers and exhibitors and the programs the owners produce are used in many shelters and colleges.

Try asking those questions of what dog is best for a home with kids, horses, etc.
Scroll to the bottom and go to the boards:

http://www.familydoginc.com/index.html

For those interested in GSD, go ask here what to look for in a good dog and breeder.
They are one of the better breeders in the USA, that have titled GSD in obedience, shutzhund, tracking, herding, agility, etc. and also train all kinds of dogs for the public:

http://groups.msn.com/FramheimGermanShepherds/generalkennelinfo.msnw

[MistyBlue]

Easiest way to tell a Mal from a Sibe at a distance is that a Mal tails curls up over the back in it's natural state and a Sibe's doesn't. Mals = no blue eyes, more square head and a more blunt muzzle and there should be a pretty decent overall size difference...Mals are larger and heavier dogs. And they are very close genetically to the wolf. Stubborn as mules but funny as h*ll. Also, a Sibe is *much* faster and more energetic than a Mal...Mals are slow as molasses. My last Mal was so slow I could throw him a treat and then beat him to it, LOL! :winkgrin:
Seriously though...do check out standard poodles. They look and act *nothing* like the little yappy biting kinds. And I've yet to meet a standard poodle that didn't have an excellent personality. (as long as it was brought up right) I wanted one badly the last time I got a dog but didn't find a breeder with any litters due anytime soon in my area. I won't shop for dogs from anywhere where I can't visit and meet the parents. The mohawk haircut sounds hilarious too!