Chariot.

[kearleydk]

Does anybody here have experience with chariots other than Simon's. I have contacts in England who built a Persian chariot for their Caspian horses.

However, they were striving for historical accuracey. I'm less concerned with that than with function. I want mine to look "sort of" authentic but I have no problem with modern materials and design changes to make it better for a pair of ponies. Actually it appears to me that the Persians drove 4 abreast with a pole off each corner of the Chariot. Not sure I want to go there at the moment.

Open to all suggestions.

Thanks

Dick

[goodhors]

Maybe buying a video of Ben Hur, will give you some idea of how they work in action. Show you some cool harness ideas. I remember closeups as well as the chariot race.

MSU has had several chariots. Here is one:

http://www.enlightenedspartan.com/history/history-MSU150.htm

Husband saw the newer MSU chariot in action, was extremely front-end heavy, even with two large men as driver and passenger. Perhaps they were ahead of the axle. Teetering effect might not have been considered. Chariot was built by the Engineering Dept. Early 2000's with the Andaulusian Pair.

http://www.enlightenedspartan.com/photos/game1/DSC00388.jpg

This covers a bit of detail on that chariot, as well as the horses.

http://newsroom.msu.edu/site/indexer/513/content.htm

http://newsbulletin.msu.edu/aug30/chariot.html

[Thomas_1]

You might find this of interest. Something I was involved with:

http://www.emincote.com/bm001/#

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/trail/archaeology/wetwang/wetwang_chariot_queen_01.shtml

This gives quite a bit of detail regarding reconstruction:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/trail/archaeology/wetwang/act_chariot_entry.shtml

[LostFarmer]

Dick,
Here is rural Idaho we still do foolish things like have cutter racing. It is essentially a light weight chariot that is pulled by a team of running QHs or TBs. They race down a packed track at a high rate of speed. Most of these are built with aluminum tube and weigh very little. I would certainly not recommend one of these for training. I actually have one that has seen its better days. The training cutters as we call them are usually pretty simple. A 55 gallon drum cut open for the front with a pole, double tree, and axle. Most of the training cutters us motor cycle tires and wheels while the racing ones use the most high tech bicycle wheels that they can find. Suspension is for sissys and as such most have none.

I have actually seen a tongue like you describe. It had a double tongue that went between both teams in a 4 abreast. Each team is hitched normal. It is like driving 2 teams instead of a team with an extra on each side. This set up is most often seen on VanBrunt grain drills.

Tell us more about what you have in mind?
LF

[LostFarmer]

I should clarify the double pole situation is not a good option on rough or uneven ground. If a wheel hits a rut it will lower one pole and not both, where a single pole is not effected as much. Similar to the carts that are built so heavy that the shafts can not flex. A bump can torque the shafts and be uncomfortable for the horse. Just a thought. LF

[LostFarmer]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,890517,00.html

http://www.hunkydory.cc/aacra.html

Yes those are coats that the drivers are wearing and yes it is cold. That is snow that you are seeing in some of the photos.

http://www.jhunderground.com/2007/02/13/cutting-out/

Redneck winter entertainment. :winkgrin:

LF

[horseyfolks]

LF, help me get rid of some of my ignorance.... what is a VanBrunt grain drill?

Don

[sk_pacer]

horseyfolks - it was a piece of horse-drawn machinery for seeding grain...undoubtedly all the rage in Florida in the teens and twenties!!!LOL There were a few around here eons ago, but more common was JI Case, For the most part, drills went out of fashion when diskers came into use as tractors replaced horses. A drill has vertical 'wheels' that make a shallow furrow for the grain to drop in while a disker covers the seed more efficinetly as the disks are slanted on the shaft.That said, some farmers did manage to convert drills to tractor power and used them as they were easier to handle in tight spots - ie: seeding sloughs when they dried out; the also handled grass seed better than diskers.

Somewhere, I have a pic of a drill being pulled by 6 horses abreast and if I could ever get my scanner working again, would scan it. Maybe should try taking a pic of the pic with the digital???

[LostFarmer]

Thanks SK. VanBrunt drills were some of the best of the grain drills. They were eventually bought up and became part of John Deere. I have an old drill that is tractor pulled that I am converting back to horses. It usually took 4 head of 1200 to 1500 pound draft horses on a drill especially on hills. They often had 2 poles and each team was hitched to a pole.

Head on over to the Rural Heritage site and you will learn more that you thought possible about equipment.

LF

[kearleydk]

I am suprised by one thing. So far the idea of a drop axle to keep large wheels yet drop the floor of the chariot closer to the ground does not seem to be a common concept. However when I spoke to John Pavlik this morning he acted like a drop axle was the most common thing. I think he said he had built a couple of chariots for Minis.

If you check Tommy Turvey's chariot http://www.equineextremist.net/promofiles/KarenTurvey_chariots.jpg you will see that the floor is lower than the hub of the wheels.

LF those cutter races look WAY too exciting.

Dick

[Cartfall]

Dick--it sounds as if you don;t have enough to do these days!!!!:winkgrin::D

LF--now that is an extreme sport! CDEs almost pale besides the cutter racing. Looking at the harnesses, the horses seem in heavy harness--they have collars on as opposed to breaststraps. Any particular reason?

[kearleydk]

My folks in England just e-mailed. They used 38" wheels which seems pretty big to me. What do you think Thomas?

I have a pair of 33" wheels which would seem plenty big to me.

The folks in England did use the drop axle concept somehow to get the floor lower.

I think they used stub axles attached to the side of the chariot rather than a continuous axle. Personally I am going for a the drop axle because I feel both sides have to be connected in their own right. I'm sure the sides of the chariot could be made strong enough to hold the stub axle but...............

Dick

[LostFarmer]

For what you are doing I think the drop axle is better. In the case of the cutters they are looking for light. An extra pound or 2 will mean more than the center of gravity. They race 200 yds on a straight line.

Speaking of wild I once saw a tongue break near the neck yoke. The result is the tongue hit the ground and stopped causing the cutter to become a catapult. The man went about 30 feet in the air and landed in a heap. He jumped up and ran to get his horses. :eek:

LF

[kearleydk]

Now that actual construction of the chariot draws near details have to be dealt with.

Looking at the few available photos , there seems to be quite a bit of variance in the width of the vehicle. The vehicle that Thomas posted is wider than the horses. The turvey vehicles and the Spartan chariot seem about the same width as the horses and LF's cutters are much narrower than the team.

My current layout making the body of the chariot about the same width as the horses feels wide to me. Obviously the Ben Hur chariots were much more narrow than the 4 abreast hitch that pulled them (which raises the question How did he cut those spokes?)

The footage is available on You Tube. Pretty impressive driving there when they brought all the teams in and backed them up to the wall. It's worth a look just to be impressed with the driving before the race starts.

anyway, any thoughts on the width of the chariot would be appreciated.

Dick

[goodhors]

Your dropped axle comments caught my attention. If you have access to any folks with Governess Carts or Tub carts, you will want to check the axles.

These wide body carts were almost all on dropped or "crank or cranked" axles. This made them easier to get into, low center of gravity. However, it seems that many of them have a unique motion if equine pulling goes with any speed beyond a pokey walk. They develop a kind of waddle action, with first one side, then the other, lurching ahead with pony trot.

Some of the best carriage makers never had this problem with their vehicles, while others can be notorious for the ride. Folks I have heard talking all seem to blame the dropped axle for the problem.

I wondered if there was a notable difference in axle attachement methods. Brackets plus springs or no springs. Maybe a location difference, too far forward or back under the body, unbalancing it. This would be why the better makers did a better job. They knew best location combined with load and shaft length, to position axle for a no-problem ride.

Thought I should mention this, prevent a possible future problem by exploring the issue. Pole instead of shafts might be a help too.

I thought Ben Hur's chariot was pretty wide, to allow the spoke cutting. Sharp points way outside the body of chariot, outside horse width, would also mow down infantry if you drove thru them. This is a bigger, better sized body to hold several people, like a war chariot. Driver and spear men or achers going into battle. I haven't seen movie in a long time, though. I did think the hubs were wider than the 4 horses. Weren't the horses pulling, old-style Arab types, not huge or wide animals? Track only held 4 chariots, so that is wide enough for the teams on each vehicle, but hub bumping was the issue in passing and racing along, even without the sharp points on hubs. Could be I am not remembering Ben Hur correctly.

I also thought of the movie Moses, where the Pharoh had lots of chariots. I think they were much lighter built though. Another video idea for you to view.

[kearleydk]

Goodhorse, I'm thinking about the waddle and trying to figure why it would happen.

meanwhile; here is the Ben Hur clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwujc_B0Jqg
I think I make 9 teams lining up fro the race. Chariot in the movie is definately not as wide as the 4 abreast hitch

[Sabovee]

What about a chariot race with these puppies....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270166875805&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=017

[kearleydk]

I'm picking up my chariot tomorrow. It won't be painted but I think I'll take it to National Drive anyway.
Dick

[goodhors]

I'm picking up my chariot tomorrow. It won't be painted but I think I'll take it to National Drive anyway.
Dick

I have to believe you will be unique in having the only one! How do you plan to turnout with it? You probably want to pack both summer and winter clothing because the weather looks very undependable.

Might I suggest a cotton Toga look for the summer wear on 80F+ days? Something in a medium to dark blue would look nice as a masculine color. You could go with a braided ribbon trim on edges or leave them plain. Blue will go with the dark ponies and almost any paint color on the vehicle. I would recommend a below-the-knee length, flows right into cross-lacing on your legs for the sandals. I am not sure whether you would prefer the silver helmet or a full olive wreath for the head covering. A ribbon on the wreath could create a really nice streamer effect, adding to the appearance of speed! Some decorative knots of matching blue ribbons with short streamers could be very attractive on the Caspians and chariot. Flowing streamers add to the fast look, add excitement to the complete picture.

If it got cold down in the 50Fs, you probably should wear heavier attire. I thought a kilt and black jacket would look very nice. Formal, WARM materials. I would go for a brighter plaid, with coordinating tall socks, black laced shoes with grippy soles. Again, hem ending below the knee, just above the tall socks. I know the lacy shirts are most common with kilts, but I would skip the ruffles at the wrists, might tangle in the reins. White color past jacket sleeves is a harsh contrast to jacket, gloves, shows every time you move your hands with reins. The choice of a tam, or the bonnet style hat would not catch the wind as you zip along. Both styles are traditional and look good with ribbon streamers at the back.

To modify these outfits better for driving, you probably want to put some lead fishing weights in the hems of skirts to hold them down. Chariot driving will add extra drafts, not suited for lap robes or aprons.

The Traditional lack of undergarments in both these outfits might want to be addressed for the use you will be putting them to. Go with undergarments that are seasonal, humorous, funny.

With horses, something is bound to happen, that you NEVER planned on, so best be FULLY dressed for it! Or maybe driving FULLY COVERED might be a better way to put it.

Get lots of pictures, however you decide to turn out the chariot.

[MySparrow]

Dick, shall I bring my crossbow and spears?

[Ashemont]

LOL... :lol: Can't wait to see you Dick!!! And if you don't have olive branches for the wreath I'm sure you can pull something close enough out of your greenhouse. :winkgrin: And you KNOW we'll all check to see if you are 'legal' underneath :D

[horseyfolks]

I think you should go like Mel Gibson..... paint your naked body (and don't forget Mary's) bright blue and do a lot of screaming, growling, and grunting for effect!

Don

[atr]

The toga must be purple, or at least purple edged, surely :)

[Ashemont]

Dick said no toga :( :no: :( ... but he's brought lots of plants again so our stable area will look beautiful :D

[goodhors]

Hi Dick, I found this video on YouTube. I though you might like to see it. The more stuff you watch, maybe you can pick up tips and clues to successful chariot harnessing and driving. What NOT to do!! This is slow work, but is easy to see stuff with. Canada 2007 Vierspan is the name of it.

I did think perhaps the left pair, needed pair rein adjustments. Heads are pulled left constantly. Might be the connector straps on bits, between heads making that happen. Anyway, some more ideas for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQDYN_AhoMQ&mode=related&search=

[MySparrow]

Dick's chariot was remarkable! Really well balanced and attractive. Although the metal was still unpainted, it held promise of future glory. It was still being engineered when he got there -- it was fun watching him and Johnnie Ruehl work out the mechanics of the pole attachments -- but it worked. As I left, the chariot was being used to carry beautiful plants from Dick's nursery.

[kearleydk]

Today Bob tested the chariot pretty hard.
Maybe not max speed but getting there. It remained very stable in the arena although rough riding on roads. Padding the interior to allow one to brace against the sides better will be the next move. Photos will go up on my web page in a few minutes.
Dick
www.DiMarCaspians.com

[Ashemont]

I thought in pictures I saw of Egyptian chariots that there was a small stand - a pole coming up from the floor with a cross piece at the top - for the charioteer to lean back against. Or are there different types?

Anyway, saw the chariot at The Drive and it was really neat! Hope to get a ride in that next year :) It would be awesome with 4 abreast! :D

[kearleydk]

The lastest photos of the Great Chariot Adventure are up.

http://www.robrick.com/dimar_caspians/photos/index.asp?ref=46&cat=4

Are we nuts or what?

Dick

[kearleydk]

Soon you will see Bob in Persian costume as well.

Too much fun

[Ashemont]

No toga???

[kearleydk]

In an hour I will be headed to the farm to start cleaning harness and vehicles to load up for the weekend. We will be at the first equine expo held in Ocala. Read all about it here: http://www.floridaequinecapital.com/

The world's only Caspian 4 in hand will be in the "dinner in the dirt" show and the lion hunt will be in the breed presentations. The Chariot will be cruising the grounds looking for lions all weekend.

Dick

[Ashemont]

Wish I could be there to see it! But we're finally going out to Tryon for the Carolina Carriage Club's first Continuous Drive :)

Good luck and be sure to post some pictures!

[kearleydk]

We took the 4 in hand all around the grounds last night and all went well.

Spotlights tonight may be an interesting experience. They appear to not be very high above the arena. Thank goodness I have at least worked the horses once or twice at night in my own arena at home.

Dick

[kearleydk]

I should not talk of what I'm "going to do." We were going to run the 4 in hand through Dinner in the Dirt. We had a good practice run around the tables in the afternoon. Put the horses up because we were not Scheduled to go until 9:25. Around 6:30 Onyx looked a little off to me. I studied him for a few minutes and concluded he was starting to colic. Got some oral Banamine into him and started hunting for a vet. Got the vet out to the show grounds about 7:30 and as we were walking to Onyx's stall Kiyan collapsed in the stall next to him and started kicking the wall. ACUTE COLIC attack!

We vetted both horses and it appeared we were in good shape having caught them immediately. Of course, I went up to the arena and scratched us from the list. When I got back to the stalls Onyx was looking good but Kiyan was down again. I walked Kiyan and thwarted his attempts to drop and roll until 1:30 AM when I was finally able to get my trailer to the show grounds. We loaded him up and headed for home. Got home at 2:20 AM and the trailer ride was good for him. He came out feeling frisky and promptly consumed a nice bowl of hot mash.

All's well that ends well. Both horses are OK and we ran the Chariot twice today. First in the parade of breeds where Bob hot rodded around the arena while I narrated the Caspian story. Later in the day we finally got to do the Lion hunt skit. That was well recieved and a friend got a lot of pictures which I should get my hands on before long.

The capper of the day was that Josh Lyons spent nearly 11/2 hours working with Little Annie and the young Caspian gelding she has taken a liking to. At the end of the session Annie was up in the saddle and the horse was walking quietly around on a lead line. What a break through moment!!!! It would have been a Kodak moment had they not been in pitch dark by the time they finished.

[Thomas_1]

Sorry to hear that 2 of your horses coliced.

Do you know why?

[Ashemont]

OMG poor Kiyan and Onyx! Thank goodness you caught it quickly. Any idea what caused it? Sure hope there are no reoccurences!

Neat about Josh Lyons and Annie. Sure must've been interesting to watch. Just a sidebar: Joe was Josh's 1Sgt when he was stationed at Fort Bragg while in the Army - but Joe had no idea who he was. Years later, when he happened to mention it could've strangled him!!!! I'm sure he would've welcomed a chance to get off post and play with our horses.

Kisses to K and O!

[kearleydk]

Had I only known I would have certainly asked Josh if he remembers Joe. It would be nice to remind him as they may well meet up at some sort of expo. For the final act of the weekend they concluded the "wind riders" competition. the four finalists from Sat morning were each paired with a clinician for the finals last night. Josh was paired with a woman we know slightly named Poppy Mo. When we were walking down to work with Annie, Josh asked if I knew her as they had only 24 hours to work out what they would do for their final freestyle offering together. Josh asked Poppy what she did that it was unlikely other competitors would do and she replied "well I shoot guns a lot." Thier freesyle entry was Cowboy shooting. Josh had never shot anywhere around his horse before so his approach to getting the horse used to it in a hurry was to run the horse real fast and then shoot. He said "if they are going fast they don't have a chance to do much more than flinch." It certainly worked for his horse as they rode the pattern just fine. Josh needs tpractice shooting more though as he burst only 2 of his 6 balloons :-)

The Colicy Caspians are both doing fine. The only "reason" we can see for the problem was the sudden cold snap we had that night. I was certainly feeling it myself even tho I had on my wool shirt and heavy jacket my weird little thing I have in my shoulder was going berserk. It has warmed back up and both horses are roaring around in their paddocks glad to be home.

Here is a very long link to a very short video clip of Bob driving the chariot.

http://www.ocala.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=news1020&bcpid=301941310&bclid=301794139&bctid=1313733062

Dick

[kearleydk]

Sorry, the entire link does not paste into the bulletin boards for some reason. Just click on the news item about the Equine Expo and it should play after the long ad for Cadillacs.
Dick

[Ashemont]

The link worked just fine for me, Dick. I can't believe Bob actually wore that outfit!!! :lol: Too funny!!!!! You'll definitely have to do your number at TND next year so we can all see it :D

So glad the boys are doing fine.

[kearleydk]

My little brain is churning on the next Skit. I think it will be titled "Do it Yourself Driver."

Lot of humorous possiblities THERE.

Dick

[goodhors]

Sorry to hear your boys had such a bad night. You TOO!! Glad they came out of the colic so well.

Animals can make all of us look silly. We make our great plans, work really hard on them, then animals do something to halt everything taking place. I guess it is to keep us humble. Other folks have mentioned weather changes affecting their animals, causing colics repeatedly in certain animals. They blame the air pressure changes, along with cold. I have started salting the feed for our horses, need cold weather drinking kept up to normal. Dehydration is the main cause of local colics in winter season, horses don't like the cold water.

I will be looking forward to seeing more pictures, hearing about your next skit. My friend and I actually learned to ride English, then jump, while reading instructions from a book. We took turns, one riding the Equitation, then practicing the jumping in good form, while the book reader critiqued. No one around rode English, gave any lessons and we WANTED to ride this stuff. We just wanted to JUMP, it was so COOL!! We did learn, got fairly skilled, so it did work, probably took longer than with a teacher. Thinking back, we probably looked awful funny out there in the dirt ring with the book in our hands! We later found an instructor who polished us up for showing.

Book Learning might be funny in your skit, could be used many ways.

[Cartfall]

Wait until I see Bob--that beard was awful!!!!! But I was impressed with your chariot and horses. They did a great job!!!

When I first saw the chariot and Bob behind the guyin the suit on the ATV, I was a little confused. A lion? Now I understand!!! Too funny.

[kearleydk]

Cartfall, I'm glad somebody "got it." :-)

Goodhorse, the character I envision for "Do It Yourself Driver" will be short on book "larnin" too. Short on horse knowledge in general. I'm trying to incorporate as many mistakes as possible into the skit. I will have to train the horse to have some bad manners on cue. Refusing to lead forward when he sees the cart will be an obvious one. No doubt vigorous head bobbing when the character asks if he is afraid of the cart. This act will involve a number of tricks so it will evolve over time.

[Dixie's Mom]

I had the good fortune to spend the weekend at the equine expo in Ocala. Although I nearly froze on Thursday night and Friday all day - I had to go buy a winter coat on Thursday night! I got to see the Caspians, the chariot, and the fierce chase to kill the lion. Peace prevailed as the lion wisely surrendered. It was great fun to watch.

[Dreag823]

Dick,

I request that the great chariot caper have a repeat performance at the FlaWHIPS picnic drive. You have to admit, the location is great! (your house!)

This I have to see in PERSON!

Andrea
(who wants to take George F. as my passenger in my cart. I've requested that day off from work)