"Scary" Driving Clinic

[Aelfleah Farm]

I have had the joy of being a participant at the worst driving clinic ever. I thought I'd just drop the "experience" from my memory, but I've decicded to tell my little story to save someone else the potential anguish.

On August 10, I went to a "Driving Clinic" hosted by Full-Circle Equestrian Center with John Beiler as the clinician. I am usually not into the "clinic" scene... Unless the clinician is very well known and I have personal recommendations from previous participants... And I should have stayed that way!

I took two ponies to this "driving clinic". A 3yo complete virgin large pony filly and a 5yo medium pony mare who is very accomplished under saddle. The clinic was billed as for non-driving animals. As in "teach your horse to drive". I have taught a pony to drive, adn we compete in CDE, but I've only been driving a couple of years, and only with the one pony. I'm no expert by any means!

We got to the clinic site at about 2 pm on a Friday. A 6 hour drive, including one stop for breakfast and two fuel stops. In 100+ heat. (The hotel desk clerk later told us it was 111 with heat index)
Kitty (3yo filly) was a bit of a worrier. She occasionally scrambled in the trailer and whinnied a lot while traveling. She's never been farther than 20 minutes in a trailer before. Spirit (5yo mare), who's been back and forth to Florida, traveled perfectly fine.

We found the "equestrian center" easily enough. All I could think was "wow, there are a damn lot of horses here." No barns in site. Just lots and lots of paddocks, some few with carports for shelter. I later learned there were 45 horses there. Some of them belonged to boarders, some were in for training, most in for sale on commision.

The "arena" was on the highest point of the property, a covered pen about 50x70. One end of it was turned into 10x10 stalls that I never saw cleaned the entire time I was there. A fugly stallion occupied one of those stalls, right where mares had to be worked in front of his very unhappy nose. The clinic was held mostly in the remaining 50x60 "arena". I guess this was okay, since only one horse was worked at a time.

This was not a clinic like I was expecting. It was very hands off, the clinician did all the work, only letting the owners get involved for the last few minutes of each drive.

I was already a bit wary, but I was determined to be open minded. I wrote a check for $300 dollars for this (plus a couple of hundred in gas and another couple on hotel and meals), after all.

When we had the girls put away, we drew up our folding chairs to watch. Two mini's had already been through the "program" and a big QH gelding was the current victim. The gelding was being "lunged" in the pen with harness on, a twisted wire snaffle bit wired to his halter, and dragging a mess of PVC pipes with plastic sacks tied to their ends... My friend and I looked at each other, and I know we both thought "uh-oh". Spirit, the medium pony, has a morbid fear of WHITE (and really only white) plastic or paper. She was "round penned" as a baby, apparently enough to hypersenitize her and not enough to get her "sacked out". And we've never been able to work through this (though to be honest I've never spent much time trying). Still, this clinician was supposed to be a professional...

The lunging thing was rather inventive. In the center of the pen, a huge stake had been driven into the ground. Attached to this was 20 feet of rope. The rope was running through PVC pipe, actually electrical conduit. When I asked what the hell that was, I was told that this was to keep the horses on the outside of the circle. The horses were attached to the fixed lunging contraption and just sent around endless until they "accepted" each step.

The "ideal" process was this:
Drape blanket over horse tied to railing. Flap it around a bit.
Tickle horse with short whip with plastic sack on end.
If horse doesn't explode, harness horse with ancient filthy NYLON harness, oft broken and oft repaired with bailing twine and such. No crupper and made for a much larger horse.
Attach a bit to the horse's halter with snaps, if they aren't broken, or wire if it works better.
Attach horse to lunge contraption and send it around by chasing with whip and plastic sack or with a pom-pom thingy, if the horse didn't get lively enough with the whip and sack.
Once horse "accepts" this treatment, attach a length of PVC to breastcollar on each side.
Send horse around more.
Once horse "accepts" this treatment, attach another length of PVC to breastcollar on each side. These new pieces have a plastic sack on the end.
Send horse around more.
Once horse "accepts" this treatment, attach a third length of PVC to breastcollar on each side. These new pieces have three plastic sacks on each,
Send horse around more.
Once horse "accepts" this treatment, attach an axle thingy to the last pair of PVC pipes, so horse is two dragging pieces on each side and a wheeled thingy. All liberally covered with plastic sacks.
Send horse around more.
Once horse "accepts" this treatment, attach a plywood "dashboard" to the axle thingy.
send horse around more.
Once horse "accepts" this treatment, stop. Take all pipe stuff off, turn horse around and start at the beginning, but going the other direction.
After horse is thoroughly tired and "accepting" (remember it is like 110 degrees, high humidity, occasional faint breeze), attach horse to beat up, poorly balanced cart. If traces won't reach, use bailing twine to make up the difference.
Attach reins to bit and ground drive in the pen, forcing horse to shove hard on shafts to make the tight turns.
If horse doesn't freak out, head outside, with open gate to Interstate 10, get in and walk around small yard area.
Let owner get in also and take lines, walking around small yard area.
Done. Horse is now a broke driving horse.

Okay, so QH gelding has gone through the process up until the point of being driven outside the arena. As they were driving out, I noticed that one of the hold backs was disconnected. I had to end up calling the holdback strap "the thing that connects the breeching to the cart" to get the clinician and his assistant to understand what the hell I was talking about.

So gelding is driving in yard, and owner gets in, and when asking for a turn, gelding bolts forward and clinician makes grab for reins to stop him. Seems the other holdback strap broke too, and when the horse turned, the breeching (and then cart shaft) rapped him on the hock. Did I mention this was horrible, nasty equipment? But the gelding recovered, and owner was ecstatic that her horse was now a driving horse.

So it's time to work the last mini. This is one of those mini's that is everything wrong with the breed. A horrible under bite, mishapened muzzle and head. The "process" was really shortened for him. I'm guessing because the mini harness the clinician used had a closed bridle so the poor little beast couldn't see the trash chasing him. So after like a hour of work, the mini is in the yard being driven by clinician. Who then steps out of the cart and the owner (an 8yo boy) gets in sans helmet and drives BY HIMSELF!!!! With an open gate leading to the highway! I offered the mother a helmet, when I saw this, but she looked at me like I was crazy. My friend asked me quietly "you are planning to wear a helmet, aren't you" I assured her I would have helmet and gloves before getting in behind Kitty or Spirit...

Oh, did I mention that the traces weren't long enough on this mini, so they used bailing twice to make up the difference? And that after the 1st boy finished his 5 minutes of driving, the older brother (11 or 12) drove, also without a helmet!

Finally it was done, and the mini put away.

The clinician had offered to take a 9th horse (an auditor asked if he could) and since he agreed, they wanted to start with one of mine, so that there would still be 4 to do the next day. I agreed, though I was tired, but I was trying to be easy to get along with. I pulled out Kitty, since she was the easiest to catch in the pen they were in. I still don't know if this was a good decision.

So the clinician goes through the whole process with Kitty. I made sure he knew, told him many many times, that Kitty was a complete virgin. Never been lunged, never been bitted, never been tacked. Knows feet, baths, blankets, leading, loading, tying. That's it.

So he got Kitty through his process up to the point of driving the cart in the pen. Kitty was getting frustrated with trying to understand the reins/bit, at the same time she's trying to figure out how to turn the cart in that tiny enclosed space. Right about the time I was getting up to stop the process before she exploded, the clinician stopped, saying he would finish with her in the morning, since she was getting upset. Kudos for him.

8 am finds us feeding the girls and ready to go for day 2. Kitty is first up to "finish" her day.

Clinician starts her exactly where he left off, no going back and reinforcing lessons, just continue immediately from previous point and puts her to the cart and ground driving in the little pen. She is still completely frustrated with bit/reins/turns, but she's putting up with everything.

After like 30 minutes, clinician drives her out of the pen into the yard and hops in. Kitty is trying, her big problem is the bit... Turns are so frustrating for her, she can't figure out why her mouth is being pulled like it is. I get in, drive for a few minutes (with helmet and gloves) and we're done. A very unsatisfying experience. Kitty needs lots more time on the ground, learning the use of the bit. The breeching sat way too low for her, so she couldn't back up (which I disliked seeing her asked to do anyway, since she doesn't know the bit well enough). I was just very very displeased with everything now.

And now it's Sprit's turn...

And I look up from focusing on Kitty to find the idiot clinician's idiot assistant lunging my pony with just a halter and lunge line (and ever present whip with plastic sack), and accoding to my friend, who saw the assistant go fetch Spirit, has been lunging IN THE SAME DIRECTION for 45 MINUTES in no shade 110 degree heat! I told everyone that Spirit was rehabing from a suspensory lesion she got in January. I told everyone what leg it was on, and here is this girl lunging Spirit with the bad leg on the inside of the circle at warp trot speed for nearly the whole time I have been working with Kitty!!!!

I passed Kitty off to my friend, went out to the assistant and told her that was enough, thank you very much. Spirit is very game, and unless she is in side reins and really being "worked" , she thinks lunging is a distance race, as in "I should go real fast and after x number of circles they let me stop". The assistant was lunging with the line to the bottom of the halter, on about 20 feet of rope using a 3 foot whip with a plastic sack as a "go" tool, which Spirit completely ignored, since it was so far away from her. Anyway, I stop the mindless lunging. Check the leg, and trot Spirit in hand for a second to check for lameness. And get her a much needed drink.

While I'm doing this, the clinician and the assistant are pounding a stake into the ground of this outdoor paddock (ie no shade), and moving their lazy man's lunging gear to this new place.

I decided Spirit was okay to continue, as long as EVERYONE knew again, that she had a suspensory lesion in January and zooming around on a small circle was a bad idea...

So no sacking out with blanket and sack for Spirit... I don't know why. But the clinician just "skipped" those steps. He draped her with the harness that had been too big for Kitty. I told him I had my own harness for her. He insisted on using his own crap. I told him I had an open bridle for her, or a closed bridle. He still insisted on fastening a bit to her halter with double ended snaps.

My internal warning sirens are going off, but I'm trying to be open minded here... So I sit back.

Spirit is hooked to lunging contraption. And sent off at a warp speed trot. She's happy enough to not stop, after all there is no cue in the bridle to stop, no one ever says "whoa".... So they finally get her stopped and attach the 1st pair of poles and send her off again, but only like 3 circles. Spirit was figuring out that she could really stop when ever she wanted to and no mean person (aka me) was going to discipline her for being a lazy sluggard on the lunge line.

So they had the 2nd set of poles with the damn white plastic sacks, get them attached, and the clinician steps back to get his whip thingy. The assistant is still at Spirit's head, but I don't know what started it, but Spirit busts away from them and is flying around the circle at top gallop, throwing herself to the ground trying to get away from the sacks chasing her. She stops long enough to pull straight back from the stake, then leaps into the conduit covered lunge rope and runs from the chasing sacks some more.

And no one was going to stop her!

I stepped right into her path, she slid to a halt and stood there trembling so hard I couldn't get to the buckles for the harness. The clinician came up, I guess he figured if I was unharnessing the pony we were done, so he got his harness off while I just petted Spirit, she kept shoving her head in my chest, trying to hide. It was pathetic. I was in tears, so was my friend.

I use heavy Hamilton halters. The super doubled nylon ones, with heavy hardware, brass grommets in the holes, etc. Spirit shredded her halter in the fight. I had to cut it off of her later, since the brass was deformed and it couldn't be unbuckled.

I got Spirit hosed off, and just walked her all over for nearly an hour trying to get her breathing and pulse down. Got some e-lytes into her, rubbed her down with liniment, wrapped the leg with the old injury and just walked until I thought I could speak without committing murder. She was broken. Alternately dead headed with exhaustion, then jumping on top of me, scared of every leaf and shadow. It took hours for her to graze for more than a mouthful at a time.

And the clinician had the nerve to tell me I should hang plastic sacks in her pasture.

WTF?!? I want the pony to drive, not work at the land fill! She was reasonably okay with the white plastic caught on fences and such as long as it wasn't chasing her. Now she'll probably kill her rider the first time she see plastic on the trail. A problem she didn't have before being tortured by this "professional".

Okay, I'm participating any more... Still left to go are a pair of pony mares and a Belgium mare. The lunch break was called.

The owner of the Belgium came up to me and very quietly said "thank you for stopping that", but she still wanted to see how her mare did.
Everyone else, in comments that I was intended to overhear, said I was obviously ill-prepared for the clinic (who's flyer said no prep necessary) and needed to work with my ponies more at home first. That my pony should have been worked through the issue if I ever want to drive her.

Hello? I was the only participant who had actually ever driven a horse before and actually knew how to harness one. These same people had spent the previous day asking me endless questions about CDE, how I started my current competition pony in harness, if their horses can do CDE, etc. Even the clinician spent time asking about CDE. Which didn't up my opinion of him, since he didn't seem to know the types of vehicles I was talking about, much less the harness parts I was talking about... But because the "process" failed miserably with Spirit, it's because *I* don't train my horses well. I told them way ahead of time, and multiple times, that Spirit was afraid of white plastic. But the clinician made no deviation in his process to work with this. Like he only knows exactly one way of doing things, and woe be to the pony that doesn't fit the program.

I had mentioned to another participant that I had a mare in training with a top driving trainer. Which made the host lady ask why I was at her clinic. I told everyone I like expanding my bag o' tricks, maybe find a new way of doing something. Most of the others thought this was weird, that if I already knew how to train (even though I told them I've only started ONE pony in harness, so I'm hardly a trainer), I was wasting my money at the clinic. Anyway, some of the people had heard of my driving trainer, but thought he was just too expensive and he wants to the pony there for at least 30 days... While the clinician guy, who will take in training horses too, only costs 75 a week if you bring your own grain and hay, and you can pay for a week at a time....

Okay, so back to the ponies.

First up is a nice looking pinto. Until I saw her walk. Sore on both front feet. She has navicular disease according to the owner and is barefoot, no corrective shoeing or trimming. But since she can't be ridden anymore, driving is fine, right? And did the clinician decline to work with the obviously hurting pony? Heck no, he rammed her through the process. He used the owner's harness. And went though much faster because the pony harness had a closed bridle with it, so the pony couldn't see the damn sacks. But the owner's pony cart is sized for a shetland, and was to short in the shafts for the pony. So he puts this 12 hand pony in the same cart he used for Kitty and the QH gelding. With bailing twice to make the traces reach. And drive off before handing the lines to the 10 yo daughter of the owner, again with no helmet. Who drives the foot sore pony all over for a good while.

2nd pony is up. Another 12 hand pony, this one a POA, and also with health issues. Who uses the same pony harness (which fits better in some places and worse in others). She takes much longer, because the closed bridle didn't fit her, so he had to go through the entire process with the damn sacks. But ended with little girl also driving this pony in yard with open gate to highway with no helmet with the harness fitting all wonky, and instead of actually buying shafts of proper size, the clinician told them to just weld an extension on the cart to make it fit.

This guy knows NOTHING about safety, proper harnessing, proper putting to the cart... He's telling the owners of the ponies to make sure to have them more than 2 feet in front of the cart when put to... Okay everyone, how far behind a 12 hand pony is the real "kill zone" where the pony has max power to the kick. Hmm... maybe 2 feet? And in one of those little show carts with no dashboard, what body part on a child is right at optimum kick height? Why that would be the torso!

I tried to tell the owner why that might not be a great idea, but since my pony is too crazy to even be started in harness, I have no credibility...
I tried to tell the owner that having the breeching riding up under the tail is a bad idea, that the pony can't stop the cart and can't back up, and very well could bolt if the breeching ends up under the top of her tail, but again, what the hell do I know?

My friend swears that I made the clinician defensive, that that was why he treated Spirit the way he did. That on the first day, when I tried to hold an intelligent conversation with him about competition vehicles and what to expect in the competition since he thought he'd try CDE also, that with the other participants all wanting CDE info, that I was just bothering him. Esp. after I pointed out the broken holdbacks...

I'd like to think adults don't act that way, but I might be wrong.

[Renae]

I think I would have turned around when I got there. Training a horse to drive takes months of patient work, not something that can be accomplished, or even close, in a weekend clinic. This cowboy needs to take his garbage elswhere before he gets some poor hors and owner killed. Found this places website and the example pictures say everything http://www.full-circle-enterprises.com/Driving.html

[War Admiral]

I'm pretty much just speechless, and I could only get through half of your post!!

World-class incompetence on the part of the "clinician", who unfortunately is going to get a lot of horses and humans hurt, maimed or killed.

I'm sorry about your pony. If she is ever safe to drive after this, it's going to take YEARS. Please go slowly and carefully to regain her trust. I'm sorry this happened to both of you. :no:

[high hat]

I 'might' have stayed for the night since I had already driven for 6 hours. The horses needed to rest. There is no way I would have allowed any horse to go through that. The warning bells going off in your head (they were there right?) would have sent me home first thing in the morning. The lost money would have been the least of my worries. How horrible for your horses.

[Aelfleah Farm]

In the last month, the terrorized pony has already been (re)started with a dragging a tire (she already knew ground driving and long lining from her saddle training) and since she didn't freak out when we saw a plastic sack caught in a fenceline while ground driving with the tire, I think she'll be okay. Her harness training will be cut short though, as she goes to the dressage trainer next month to be prepped for the '08 season over the winter and hopefully POA Nationals.

The 3yo is just sitting around eating again, as she's a bit farther down the priority training list right now and I don't have harness and cart to fit her since she's so much bigger than my mediums. She wasn't traumatized in anyway by her experience, just didn't learn anything either... After the POA goes off for training, and the driving mare I have in with the driving trainer comes home and we settle into a routine, then I'll start with the 3yo again. Hopefully she'll have forgotten everything by then!

I know you can't train a driving horse in a weekend... It was many months with the pony I trained, and I made mistakes I still have problems fixing. I thought the clinic was more of "this is how you can train your pony"... Maybe showing the steps, explaining the process, kinda thing. Definitely didn't think it was from virgin to driving in 2 hours! I guess I completely misread the flyer information, or ratehr read what I wanted to into the flyer. I expected my ponies to each be worked with for a couple of hours, but really didn't expect anyone to actually put them to a cart in that time!

Pics of my 3yo being worked can be seen at:
http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/ee199/Aelfleah/Freaky%20Weird%20Driving%20Clinic/

[MySparrow]

Thank you for sharing this experience. I hope that if I ever find myself in such a situation, I will remember your unheeded warning bells and listen to my own!

[hobbyhorse23]

:no: The single most important thing we can do for our horses is to listen to our instincts and have the courage to stand by our convictions when we think something is wrong. Being open-minded is good, but you knew exactly what that trainer was after the first few minutes (I can hear it in your post) and you should have trusted yourself and your feelings enough to say "no" before your horses were traumatized. So what if the other people there would have torn you down verbally? You were right, and you knew it. The lady with the Belgian should have known better too. How someone can see what your horse went through, publically acknowledge that it was a horror that had to be stopped, then voluntarily stand back and think it will be different with her own horse I do not understand! :no:

I too have had to learn that lesson the hard way, and I know it is very very hard to do. But we owe it to our horses. Trust yourself!

Your girl is gorgeous, I would take her in a heartbeat, and your account is very well-written. I hope next time you will have a happier story to tell. If you ever have a moment to read a good book, I recommend "The Tao of Equus," by Linda Kohanov.

Leia

[goodhors]

You didn't like it going in, and you went in anyway. Like many other situations that arise, you didn't stop the situation, didn't say "No" and walk away with your animals.

You have to decide to use your backbone, regardless of the quantity of other folks accepting this show of horse handling. You did not, knowing of your animals previous problems. Let the show go on. Your CHOICE to do this.

Why did you suddenly change your whole previous thinking, going to a clinic with someone you didn't know, wasn't recommended to you, let him do his "system of handling" on your animals? There doesn't appear to be ANYTHING about the situation that agreed with you, yet you kept going along.

Open minded is one thing when it comes to learning, but you got the view of examples, saw his system, before your horses even started. You didn't like them, YET LET THEM HAPPEN to your own animals!!

I think you wanted to find a "magic" method to shorten time in training. This is one of the big reason folks go to clinics, buy special equipment for their horses. Trying to find a less work, more fun method of training. Clinicians make money with gimmicks, new methods folks have never seen before, like the plastic-covered lunge rope. A clinician can't fail in front of the audience, makes things pretty fool-proof for himself. He is the "expert" because everyone is paying for his words of wisdom, eye of experience.

Everyone in Driving Horses is not perfect, is not wonderful just because he is the "expert" at a clinic. Some methods have worked in the past, perhaps prevented a worse situation from occurring during training. A trainer is paid by how many DRIVING animals he produces, not failures he sends home. Same thing as past times, horses WILL drive, like it or not.

Your personal interaction could have been influenced by many things. Hot day, big audience hanging on his every word. Your tone of voice or the idea that you know more CDE than he did. The way you interacted during pony handling sessions,stopping him before he was "finished". Crying in the pen. Your volunteering side comments when not asked. None of above sounded like a good clinic situation, but we only hear your version.

Hope your ponies forget the bad events, continue with better training progress. Sorry about your personal bad experiences also.

You always should learn at least one thing at a clinic. It appears that your lesson would be to STOP when you don't like things. Don't continue. Even if you hauled ponies to attend, don't get them out if you don't like the situation or setting. Auditing may cost some money, but no damage is done to YOUR animals. Use the backbone you have, face the other attendees, say NO to the methods shown, for use on your animals.

It is hard to face a group, say No. Just something you have to do sometimes. Because there are a number of them agreeing, doesn't mean it is a good idea to do. This works in many areas of life. Never is easy, but you have to do it.

[Thomas_1]

It sounds a horror and it looks a horror but I'm also somewhat bewildered as to why you booked in the first place and having arrived and seen it why you didn't just go. Sounds to me like there were masses of points which just affirmed your first sense that it wasn't right but I've got to say that there's lots of things I seriously wonder about!:

To me a "clinic" means its an event that's either devoted to problem solving or to demonstration and instruction and by specialist professionals. Its important to understand what the aims and objectives of the "clinic" is and also what is the competency of the person running it.

I took two ponies to this "driving clinic". A 3yo complete virgin large pony filly and a 5yo medium pony mare who is very accomplished under saddle. The clinic was billed as for non-driving animals. As in "teach your horse to drive". FIRST WARNING SIGN...... NO WAY can you take 2 horses that can't drive and train them to drive after a short few days clinic. I can understand someone who's never owned a horse not knowing that you don't just slap tack on and go with an untrained horse.

Its not something I'd expect any owner to think though and its certainly NOT something I'd expect a genuine driver not to understand.

I have taught a pony to drive, adn we compete in CDE, but I've only been driving a couple of years, and only with the one pony. I'm no expert by any means! So if you've trained a pony previously and you drive competitively as a driver you must know that it takes time to prepare a driving horse to accept harness and the carriage and to be put to and that this includes extensive long reining and familiarisation with the equipment????

We got to the clinic site at about 2 pm on a Friday. A 6 hour drive, including one stop for breakfast and two fuel stops. In 100+ heat. (The hotel desk clerk later told us it was 111 with heat index)
Kitty (3yo filly) was a bit of a worrier. She occasionally scrambled in the trailer and whinnied a lot while traveling. She's never been farther than 20 minutes in a trailer before. Spirit (5yo mare), who's been back and forth to Florida, traveled perfectly fine. I seriously wonder about your decision to travel in those conditions and to a clinic to let this be the first experience for one horse that is not used to travel???

I later learned there were 45 horses there. Some of them belonged to boarders, some were in for training, most in for sale on commision. And so? This is relevent why?

This was not a clinic like I was expecting. It was very hands off, the clinician did all the work, only letting the owners get involved for the last few minutes of each drive. Aside from the fact it sounds like incompetent rough stuff and the whole thing was wrong from start to finish, I see nothing wrong at all with the professional doing all the work at a clinic. As I said earlier, THAT is ordinarily what a clinic is.

I was already a bit wary, but I was determined to be open minded. I wrote a check for $300 dollars for this Your choice

Two mini's had already been through the "program" and a big QH gelding was the current victim. The gelding was being "lunged" in the pen with harness on, a twisted wire snaffle bit wired to his halter, and dragging a mess of PVC pipes with plastic sacks tied to their ends... My friend and I looked at each other, and I know we both thought "uh-oh". And did you ask why they were doing what they were doing or did you just stay and watch??? And that is the point where I shook my head in despair when I read your posting and started to just tut all the way through your story.

Whilst I am not naive and I know there's a lot of places that are rough and con people who don't know any better, it never fails to amaze me that there's folks that are absolutely content to pay for such a service.

When folks should no better because they actually own a horse or ride or drive already it leaves me gob-smacked that they think its right and proper to do such stuff.

Indeed it makes me wonder why I bother to do things properly when its apparent that there's a bunch of gullible folks who are compliant and willing to pay for such stuff and to sit all the way through it to the bitter end.

What did they say when you gave feedback and complained??

[witherbee]

Thank you for sharing your story, and I do sympathize with you and your horses, but I think going at all was a bad choice. Your horses had only been trailered lightly - a 6 hour trip for a youngster in that heat seems a bit extreme to me, especially since you didn't know what the accomodations would be like when you got there. The mention that both horses have issues (both health issues as in the case of the mare's suspensory, and mental issues with the white bags) and one has not even been bitted would have made me decide to AUDIT the clinic and leave the horses at home. Neither horse was prepared even for rudimentary work. I would have at least have bitted the 3 year old and taught her to longe. As for Spirit, there is no way I would have let her be worked on such a small circle at speed. If I did decide to go, I sure as he!! would NOT have let him work either horse once I saw his equipment and methods. He looks like an Amish guy in the photos. I like your heading for teh album lol!

You are lucky that neither of them got hurt and that they seem to be recovering okay. As for the white plastic bags, I do agree with the clinician that you should desensitize that mare to them and would work slowly up to hanging them on her feed bucket and in her paddock (note I said SLOWLY, I would not traumatize her). I would not feel that a driving horse would be safe if they freak out at white plastic - too many bags float by lol!

Anyway, thanks for the warning and the story. Glad they are okay and that you are taking it slowly with them. Clinics are runs so differently that I am always careful to find out what to expect (especially if travelling so far).

[pricestory]

Maybe one of the lessons to us all is to have more information before hauling horses to a clinic and getting them in trouble. Most of the clinicians I have been to I have known before ever sending in my money.

[willowoodstables]

I feel very sorry for your ponies, and I think that is pretty good of you to share the nightmare as a warning to us all.
That said, after seeing all this terrible stuff, and then having one of your ponies subjected to it, you let them take your recently recovered from an injury pony and do it all again??

Tsk Tsk

[Aelfleah Farm]

The clinician, or actually the hostess, gave me back 1/2 of my entry fee since my medium pony didn't get "worked"

If this clinic had been a riding horse kind of clinic, instead of a driving horse kind of clinic, I would have pulled the plug earlier. I don't think I trust my judgement as much when it comes to driving since I still no so little about it. I've taken plenty of homebred home-trained ponies and horses into dressage, hunters, endurance, etc, but my experience with driving is limited to a single pony.

My driving experience is this: I bought a 12yo stallion sight unseen for my breeding program expecting him to be 14 hands (as were his parents whom I knew very well). He arrived 13 hands. Too small for me, being tall and heavy, to ride. So I decided to drive him. I have never driven a horse/pony, much less trained one. Bookstop had a single book on training the driving horse. I bought the book, ordered a road cart to fit, ordered harness to fit, and had at it. We showed up at our first event woefully unprepared and ignorant, but not dangerously so. And contrary to popular belief, *I* can be taught! The pony ended up 2nd place Training Single Pony, Best Cones, and Best Conditioned his 3rd time out. He's a great pony, but does have "issues" that I caused in training him. And that I will probably never be able to fix without serious professional help. He'll probably never advance past Training Level without many months of that professional help.

I was not looking for a "magic bullet" in this clinic. At the time of the clinic, I had (still have actually) a mare in full-time training with a very well respected driving trainer (Tom O'Carroll). I had to sign up for the clinic long before that mare went to Tom's. Paying for a trainer if I thought this clinic was the way to go would have been silly. I honestly was looking for new knowledge, new ideas to add to my own skillset with regards to training a driving pony. I had these two ponies just standing around eating, and thought they'd be great candidates for this clinic. The vet had long cleared the medium pony to go back to jumping/eventing; her suspensory lesion was invisible on the best diagnostic imaging around thanks to very aggressive treatment and determined rehab. I'm just a bit paranoid about it and tend to take it very easy on her with both jumping and circle work. I don't want her to actually tear a suspensory afterall. The large pony is very willing, just ignorant. She's been shown in-hand locally since a weanling, so knew "away-missions", but no formal training. Since the clinic flyer specifically said no prep (other than halters, leads, ties, and gives feet) needed, these two fit the bill. I expected to be shown how I could teach them to drive, things specifically tuned to each pony. Exercises, or what-have-you that would aid me with each pony.

Regardless, I do take complete responsibility for getting my ponies into the frightfest of a clinic, and thankfully they seem to have collectively forgotten the experience. I'm not looking for sympathy or pity. Just wanted to relate my experience maybe more as a warning on how not to do things... And if there are any folks thinking of going to one of these clinics, maybe they'll not repeat my many rampant mistakes.

[horseyfolks]

Aelfleah Farm, I give you credit for your post. You know what happened and that it was not good for your horses. You took a chance on being slammed to share what happened with others who may be thinking of attending similar clinics (and don't think yours was the only one).

A lot of people today refuse to take responsibility for their actions. The way I see it, you have. Your horses will recover, you have learned what to watch for next time, and you are sharing your experience to warn others.

I wish you luck with your driving. Keep us updated and I hope to see some photos as you go along.....

Don

[Aelfleah Farm]

I do have good driving photos :) Not everything scary clinic stuff!

Pics of the pony stallion I trained at his 3rd CDE (Plum Creek 2007) can be found at:
http://s235.photobucket.com/albums/ee199/Aelfleah/2007%20Plum%20Creek%20CDE/

[Drive NJ]

You know, things can happen at clinics with very notable and talented clinicians. And they can happen before you even realize you are in a situation.

For example, I once took my old Hackney horse to a clinic with a very popular dressage driving clinician. My horse could be very stubborn at times and sometimes tricky. He pulled one action that I could not handle so the clinican took over and her pulled the same trick on her - not just once but twice. She got mad - he turned her off (totally tuned out) and she got madder. If she had not finally stopped and put him away when she did, I was going to grab him out of her hands because it had developed into a fruitless and un-necessary venture. After the fact, I could not believe that I had let it go on so long (probably only 5 minutes, but . . . ) Just saying that in the midst of an action you dont always realize what is really going on.

Similarly, I have heard a number of people comment AFTER clinics with many different instructors, they either "they" or "their horse" got pushed waaaay beyond their zone and picked up some bad habits from it.
Granted, a clinician only has (usually) 45 min to an hour to work with you and in an instrutional setting, they are trying to get you to do a bit more than you are used to doing. But they dont often read the signs, that what "they" can do, you or the horse are not always ready to handle and its not always a good thing

So, what I am trying to say is that clinics can be good things to stretch you and teach you
OR they can sometimes be a BIG mistake that you dont find out til after the fact

[witherbee]

Love your little driving pony! What a nice mover he looks to be. Looks like you guys do well and have fun.

[katarine]

???

On the one hand, I appreciate the courage it took to post your experience with this clinician. I am happy you were not hurt, and your ponies weren't either.

On the other hand, you displayed a remarkable lack of common sense and horse sense from before you even hooked up the trailer. You decided to take a 'virgin' 3 YO and set her up to fail, and could have gotten both of you maimed or killed.

Honestly, you were every bit as irresponsible as the clinician, from the second you tossed that 3 YO on the trailer. I just don't have words. Wow.

[riverbell93]

There were things that gave me pause about the OP's story but I choose to focus on my basic reaction - I think the OP is expressing her guilt and grief that she let someone else hurt her animals. I've done that, and the guilt is horrible. You always know there was a moment that you should have stood up and walked out, and you didn't, and they paid for it. And worse, you knew at the time that you should get up and walk out, but... All those pressures the animals don't have and don't understand - the money you paid, the ambitions you have, your insecurities about your own skills or instincts, your hopes of finding wise advice, your reluctance to admit a mistake - made you blind to their welfare for that moment when you let it happen or continue. It's the risk you run when you're open-minded, and are willing to listen and learn from other people. I think it's a short-lived flaw; mostly people don't repeat that mistake.

I've seen a lot of posts about the opposite problem - people who refuse to listen to advice when they're inexperienced, who only listen to those who think exactly like them and who never learn anything because fresh ideas never enter the cycle of reinforcement.

[hundredacres]

You are brave to post this, really you are. I have never intentially flamed anyone for being honest - but I'm frustrated for poor Kitty and Spirit...I only read through Kitty...don't even know how Spirit fared :( ). I'll restrain myself because I've let someone hit my horse once and suffered guilt (now for over a year) for it. So I know a bit what you are feeling. But man.............

I would have turned on my heels and headed out the gate. Perhaps stayed the night to rest but there is NO way I would have put my horses through a crash course like that. This is the type of training that cause horses to have "flash backs" and meltdowns weeks and months, even years after the experience and cause trouble. I have a friend who trains EXACTLY like this (with the addition of plumbers tape....don't ask) and everytime I watch her train, I learn what NOT to do...and she's offered to train my horses for me and many, many times I've said, "No thanks". I'm better off doing it myself and taking 2 years to do it.

[Cielo Azure]

The very, very worst thing is that all those people who really don't have a clue that what was going on was "bad." When they get their next "project" to break to drive, they will all be able to do it "themselves."

And bad horsemanship repeats itself, over and over and...

Thanks for posting... It reminds me to always have the balls to stand up for what I already know. In person, sometimes I need to remember to get a backbone too (hah, hah -you wouldn't know it from reading my posts, would you). But then, you all probably think that I don't know how to spell or write either (I really do, I just try not to spend too much time agonizing over these posts -they are so time consuming).

Just cause someone calls themselves an expert, does not make them an "expert." Again, it really was a helpful post.

[horseyfolks]

Heheheheheheeeee... reminds me of that old country western song.... "Don't call him a cowboy 'til you see him ride!".

Don

[fourh mom]

???

On the one hand, I appreciate the courage it took to post your experience with this clinician. I am happy you were not hurt, and your ponies weren't either.

On the other hand, you displayed a remarkable lack of common sense and horse sense from before you even hooked up the trailer. You decided to take a 'virgin' 3 YO and set her up to fail, and could have gotten both of you maimed or killed.

Honestly, you were every bit as irresponsible as the clinician, from the second you tossed that 3 YO on the trailer. I just don't have words. Wow.

Yeah... you took 'em right outta my mouth. sylvia

[Cartfall]

AF--

Hind sight is a wonderful thing--shouldas don;t count. You did what you did and have learned from it. This is life and life is not perfect. Thank you for sharing a horrific experience--

And to all who are seem to want to place blame--not one of you can honestly say you have never done something with your horse that you regret. It is kinda like the driver who says they have never had a run away or an accident.

[fourh mom]

Goodness no... I don't think anyone is saying they've 'never' made a mistake.

The original post was just so full of 'what the clinician did wrong', 'what the other spectators did wrong', and nothing of 'how I could have made it better' nor even the slightest hint of 'gee, hindsight is 20/20' or 'How not to behave at a clinic'. sylvia

[willowoodstables]

see below

[willowoodstables]

Ignore my first post...

Actually as I stated, that heavens the OP posted...why??

The very, very worst thing is that all those people who really don't have a clue that what was going on was "bad." When they get their next "project" to break to drive, they will all be able to do it "themselves."
.

Can you imagine the unknowing following this clown's techniques??????
Kim

[katarine]

I have made mistakes, ample plenty. Let Doug Milholland, reiner-trainer extraordinaire, run my horse completely out of air. I learned from that, yes ma'am I did. need more examples, heaven knows I have them. :D

My bigger issue is NOT that mistakes were made or allowed, mid-clinic. My issue is the virgin 3 YO tossed onto the fire. :no: That's not a small mistake. That's a huge fat hole in the bucket of common sense. First time in the bridle let's ask her to back up (consent & yield to pressure) whilst pushing a cart backwards (moving into pressure). Yeah, don't you agree that's not a SMALL mistake to make?

I won't say more b/c there's no need to pile on. But if you are critical of my concerns, then perhaps the shoe fits? I don't know. I know I would NEVER EVER EVER dream of coming anywhere close to replicating the OP's mistake. Been into horses too long. Know better. Can't wrap my brain around someone who ought to know better by now, not. Just can't.

[PalominoMorgan]

WOW. What Katarine said.

[Thomas_1]

AF--

Hind sight is a wonderful thing--shouldas don;t count. You did what you did and have learned from it. This is life and life is not perfect. Thank you for sharing a horrific experience--

And to all who are seem to want to place blame--not one of you can honestly say you have never done something with your horse that you regret. It is kinda like the driver who says they have never had a run away or an accident. I think its somewhat unreasonable and ironic to try to make those who have pointed out the obvious feel somewhat guilty or worthy of shame.

Likewise I don't think its a case of "blame". Though if the cap fits, then wear it. Its about understanding what went wrong and accepting responsibility and learning from the experience.

As an owner YOU are responsible for the total management of YOUR horse. Accepting personal responsibility seems to be something that in modern times folks struggle to cope with and trying to find someone to blame seems all too often to be an approach to alleviate the conscience and prevent learning.

However I've got to say that the story as related isn't a complex one which required the benefit of hindsight to foresee the outcome.

I actually never even bothered to read to the end of the original posting (and still haven't!) because the disaster was set up and could be predicted right from the onset. I merely looked at the web site and just read the first paragraphs and started "tutting" till I lost the will to read on!

I drone on about safety with carriage driving and risk assessment and taking action to mitigate risk.

This approach should be fundamental to the way that a carriage driver thinks.

Too often folks post about accidents and say "well you learn from your mistakes". And of course that is something that its prudent to do.

However REALLY clever folks learn from the mistakes of others: they learn the fundamentals and understand the risks and their limitations and what can go wrong and where they could have pitfalls BEFORE. That alleviates the possibility that a lot of mistakes can ever even happen.

I still struggle to even begin to understand how someone who claims to be a driver and has driven CDE competition can even begin to think that this was appropriate.

However I'm getting VERY cynical in my old age and experience tells me that when folks say they're experienced drivers that often what they mean is that they've some time under their belts but their experience might all be bad practice and whilst they've served time, they lack fundamental knowledge.

Indeed I've even changed the name of my "beginners driving lesson" so as not to 'offend' those who've served time. And I've stopped being gob-smacked when those who've served time don't even know how a harness is to be properly set up, a carriage balanced and fitted and a horse put to!

[goodhors]

[QUOTE=Thomas_1;2685504
However REALLY clever folks learn from the mistakes of others: they learn the fundamentals and understand the risks and their limitations and what can go wrong and where they could have pitfalls BEFORE. That alleviates the possibility that a lot of mistakes can ever even happen.

I still struggle to even begin to understand how someone who claims to be a driver and has driven CDE competition can even begin to think that this was appropriate.

However I'm getting VERY cynical in my old age and experience tells me that when folks say they're experienced drivers that often what they mean is that they've some time under their belts but their experience might all be bad practice and whilst they've served time, they lack fundamental knowledge.

And I've stopped being gob-smacked when those who've served time don't even know how a harness is to be properly set up, a carriage balanced and fitted and a horse put to![/QUOTE]


Thomas, I can relate to everything you wrote, almost exactly what I would have posted. I saved above, the words that hit closest to home.

I try to listen and learn from those relating an experience. I don't want to experience what disaster happened to them. Not repeat a poor choice they made, now that I know how it went wrong. I really hate accidents, which didn't have to happen, if someone had been paying better attention.

Could be I have hung around with too many people willing to jump right in on the newest idea passed along to them. I watch, but don't want to be the first to experiment with it until some others have proven the success of method.

I love clinicians who explain what will happen before demonstrating. Methods are clear, easy to use, let the horse be successful in a non-traumatic way. Best are when horse just goes easily thru the exercise, comes out smarter in knowledge. Totally painless for all involved.
I just can't see why someone would offer up their darling to something they totally disapprove of? I have refused to do things I thought would not be successful now, at a clinic setting. Perhaps after learning many other things earlier in clinic. She was tired. Horse was just not ready for more knowledge at that time. We just stood back and watched others do the exercise. I will be taking this horse home, living with him for a long time in the future. I don't want him needing fixing from this experience. I want both of us having a good time there, all forward learning. No fights or frights.

I also have gotten much more cynical about folks and their horse experiences, knowledge depths. There really are not that many who go beyond book work, put in enough time to learn enough anymore. No depth to them. Or they are learning from their mistakes, a bad method, yet don't want to change. Going back to the words of Don's Country Song, "Don't call him a Cowboy, until you see him ride." Anybody can own the horse, buy the equipment, wear the outfit. Watch them interact with the animal, driving or riding, before you decide if they are more than just a horse owner. It's easy to "Talk the talk" but can they "Walk the walk" of a real horse person? Get the horse out and use him safely, wisely, work with him in whatever discipline they are trying to excel at? Even the fun driver, fun rider, tries to do it well, learn good methods so both person and horse have a good time, safely.

I have given up being surprised by almost anything people do around horses. I would be in a constant state of amazement, shock. Now I am more often surprised when someone does a wise choice! It happens less and less. I am overly careful in gatherings of horses and folks, don't want to be surprised. I do speak up, in driving or riding groups, if I see something that needs attention. Sometimes information, suggestion is welcomed, other times not, but I keep trying. I would feel very bad if someone got hurt from ignoring their problem.
My daughter is much the most closely observed, frequently corrected child, in her horse group activities, horse handling at home. I don't want bad things to happen to her, so she can't do the "fun stuff" she sees the other kids doing with their horses. Part of having a parent who DID do the dumb things as kid, got hurt, knows NOW how bad they were on my young or untrained horses. My parent didn't know, and got "EVERYBODY does that" if she protested. Of course daughter hasn't had to be treated by the medics at these activities as some of the other kids have, no ER visits. She is reaching an age where she is observing poor actions resulting in bad happenings without me pointing them out. Steering clear of potential problem situations. Guess that means some learning is sinking in.

Do be careful. Less and less folks who will put in the training or learning time to get the results anymore.

[Thomas_1]

I love clinicians who explain what will happen before demonstrating. I do the why before the what usually. And unless its something urgent, I always do a Why after a What.

I also have gotten much more cynical about folks and their horse experiences, knowledge depths. There really are not that many who go beyond book work, put in enough time to learn enough anymore. No depth to them. Or they are learning from their mistakes, a bad method, yet don't want to change. I estimate that 80% of the driving horses I've had in to re-school have nothing wrong with them at all other than they're harnessed or put to incorrectly and so basically I just adjust everything so its right and put them to in the proper position using correct adjustments to a carriage that fits them and they NEVER EVER do anything wrong.

So I don't even get to see what their owners tell me is wrong.

And the other 20% have been spoilt by something that has been done to them and for which their owner is entirely responsible.

I get a lot which come to be "re-done" - having been elsewhere "for 6 weeks" to be put to harness. Indeed that's become a bit of a joke here. When folks ring up and do the "how long will you take and how much is it?" and then after I talk through my approach and what they do, if they dismiss everything and merely say "oh... so and so charges £500 and does it in 6 weeks", I usually say "yes I know I've had them in here afterwards" If they push on about time and money then I retort with "well go there and we'll most likely see you later"

It's easy to "Talk the talk" but can they "Walk the walk" of a real horse person?
You're absolutely right though even through the written 2 way communication and spoken word you can make a pretty darned accurate assessment of knowledge base. Whilst those good with books might be able to write a huge summary of how to do something, if you probe theirs obviously NO substance.

I like to think I've a VERY good bovine excrement detector.

Some time ago I suggested it might be good to get organised with folks from here with a chat on msn which I thought would be a great opportunity to get to know each other better and also to chat about experiences etc. If folks are interested, lets get it sorted?

I have given up being surprised by almost anything people do around horses. I'm no longer surprised, though I am often shocked!

My daughter is much the most closely observed, frequently corrected child, in her horse group activities, horse handling at home. To end this posting on a lighter note....

True story: Susan was riding out having some "girlie time" with the 2 daughters and I was "babysitting" the grand-children. They were up Flodden Hill and could hear some noise in the distance and were perplexed as to what it was, then they realised it was a helicopter and quite close by and beneath the height they were at. There's been a few riding accidents in the UK when helicopters just "appear" and spook horses and a couple of notable deaths and Susan said "oh girls be careful, its a helicopter and I think its below us". Tracey (my eldest) said, "it will be dad that's chartered it for the riding police, to make sure we've all got our thumbs up and are sitting straight" :eek::confused:

[goeslikestink]

op-- i cant beleive that gut instinct was calling you and didnt listen to it

i would never have put my horses in that situation ever
and commonsnse when 1st arrvied would have told me to run not walk away


if you driven at cde level then you should know that it takesmany months to trian a horse
in driving or riding

and please let me tell you something you might thik it hasnt up set your horses
but beleive me it has-- they have long menories for things that arnt perticularly nice
i should know i have re - hab many that have mental trama by things like you have stated been done to them its both mental and physical -- they will rememebr and next time you try to do something perhaps out of the orm they are going to say a big fat NO
just remeber what you took them to then you are going to have to work on it
and beleive me this could possibale set any goals you had for these two
further back -- and it wiil take heaps of time to get and gain there cnfidence and trust in you--


i also didnt read it all as it was so off -- why pay 300.00 for rubbish
and if hes rough then thats abusive as you have described many things that are barbaric
and if i was thre then my equine head would this has to be reoprted as cruelty and not a clinic


most people i know that do clinic are there to encoruage and help you with
your hores be it ridden or driven - and if i and when i attened driving clinics
it was to show you how to perform a movement -- or correct a movement
and whats to be expected if you have horses learning to go out into competitions
and have plenty of practices with your own pony or ponies

i i just cant get it thorugh my head you didnt listen to yourself and put your own ponies up for such -- abusive behaviour

sorry but it just lay with me -you obvously feel quilty hence the post and warning as you have thought about your actions-- but the ponies are the ones that neeed lots of tlc and so much more encoruaement how thats going to effect you r plans in future with them depends if they have wor the expreience well or not--- older ne might have got away with it maybe but the younger one---- i dont know -- horses sleep thing you know

[kt-rose]

Having had to extricate myself and my horse from a few situations I did not think were going well I have learned to set things up going into a new clinic or lesson situation so that I will be able to make a relatively graceful exit if things are not as I hoped -- and I have no hesitation using it if I think I need to. I always pay up front -- very awkward to leave unless you have paid, you can ask for a refund later if you want -- much less important than getting yourself and your horse out. Before we get going, I also set the trailer up for leaving so I can simply say I'm sorry, this isn't quite what I had in mind today, load my horse and leave without confrontation or explanations. If there is the remotest chance the horse won't load without help, I take help. I do this no matter who I am going to work with if I have not worked with them before -- no matter how big a name or reputation -- I want to be able to remove my horse easily and quickly without a scene. We are responsible for every step our horses take and, while mistakes are inevitable, doing your best to make the right decisions every day regardless of other pressures is all you can do.

[Ashemont]

-- no matter how big a name or reputation --

In the dressage world there are many BNT I wouldn't let NEAR one of my horses! Unfortunately there are many riders who can look lovely on a trained horse but haven't a clue as to how to actually train the horse. Or they're OK with a horse who reacts as the book predicts, but are totally lost with a horse that behaves differently. I can only guess it's the same in the driving world. I actually turned down an Olympic rider once who wanted to take my stallion and show him. She's one of the 'pretty' riders with questionable training methods - someone who was interested in furthering herself and not someone who really loved the horse. Instead we stayed with the amateur who loved the horse and cared for him accordingly. Didn't get the international recognition maybe but my horse was happy and I could sleep at night.

My horses come first. Period. I don't care who it is, if I think what he/she is doing is wrong or unsafe for my horse then I stop it even if the method has worked on other horses. Afterall, I am the customer. I'd always try to be nice about it, of course, because as the old saying goes "You meet everyone in life twice... once going up and once coming down" and the horse world is really quite a small place. Nonetheless I've put many years into breeding these wonderful animals and i'm not about to let anyone head them down the wrong path; I go with my gut.

[RU2U]

Why would you wait in line for your horses to be abused? Would you jump off a bridge cause everyone did it?

If your horse is afraid of plastic bags why would you "desensitize her" with her in harness tied to PVC and plastic bags? Every other horse had it done before you, its not like you didn't know it was coming...I don't remember Thomas using this method. I'm of the group that a horse should be taught to be calm in harness, desensitize out of harness at first so he doesn't fear driving.

When I read this, you did write it real well, very suspenseful, but the ending was alittle predictable. Your just lucky none of yours were hurt.

We all have done what you did, but 2 days is along time to let it go on. I carry the guilt of watching my children get belittled and not cared for at preschool. They were professionals, they had PHD's, they knew what they were doing, but it did take alot of courage to pull them from preschool (more courage to give up my job). Its hard when its your horse but even tougher when its your kids, and noone has a right to abuse them! Lord knows I'm certainly not going to pay them to do it!

My kids were not scarred, and your ponies will get over it, but next time don't hesitate to walk!

[Gestalt]

I had hoped this would die so I wouldn't be tempted to post. :lol: But here I am.

We are responsible for our horses welfare and it's up to us to keep them from abusive or idiotic 'situations'. The OP's post had me cringing from beginning to end.