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View Full Version : Canadians...UNCART??? WTF????



cinder88
Sep. 11, 2007, 10:49 PM
If you ride dressage in Canada, you NEED to go and have a look at the EC website for the new rule changes. Inside, is the "information" about UNCART which is about to be unveiled.

You only have until October 1st to send in your comments and/or questions...(Such as..."How the HECK are we going to implement this?" and "Did you really MEAN to turn all the grass roots riders away, or was that a by-product of trying to drum up more cash for the few Int'l riders that Canada has?" and what about..."Good idea! We didn't want to make it easy for any of those people who thought they might like to "try" dressage, anyway! Who needs the rif raf!" and "Where does CADORA fit into this?" Plus..""How come Bronze Level riders are going to require EVERY membership, but aren't allowed to participate in a year end championship?" )...or, you may even think of some of your own! Just read through the information, such as it is, and let your imagination wander.

Seems to be what thepeople who WROTE this thing did, too!

So, Canadian dressage riders...get to it and find out what you are about to be saddled with. It aint pretty!

CInder

PS....Do you think the USDF would take us??? It sure looks like an option so far!

canyonoak
Sep. 12, 2007, 01:03 AM
can you give a link? I went to EC (Im assuming Equine Canada???) but couldn't find anything more than a general rah-rah explanation of UNCART.

thanks

~Freedom~
Sep. 12, 2007, 01:32 AM
can you give a link? I went to EC (Im assuming Equine Canada???) but couldn't find anything more than a general rah-rah explanation of UNCART.

thanks


It is in pdf format and PAGES long. Maybe someone can give us the point by point version?

fullmoon fever
Sep. 12, 2007, 02:16 AM
I haven't shown at all this year and my last couple of years were only at Primaries. WTF is UNCART?

cinder88
Sep. 12, 2007, 08:30 AM
THere is a thread about it on EMG in the dressage section...

http://www.equiman.com/cgi-bin/ubb/Forum12/HTML/002090.html

I am on the Executive of our local dressage club and WE don't have any more info than what was posted on the EC site. Even our CADORA rep had no notice that this was being implemented in this years' rules. It's been snuck in under the radar, IMO, and people are given less than a month to give their opinions before it becomes the official rules.

IMO, changing the entire structure of the circuit calls for a General Meeting, where questions can be asked by the people who are actually going to PAY for these changes....You and I.

The last question was about showing in Primary. My understanding is that there will be no "Primary", I wil be considered "Bronze", and it will cost you (I'm guessing at the numbers as EC hasn't quite gotten around to telling us how much this is going to COST!), likely another $100-$300.00 a year in MEMBERSHIPS. You will need a passport-type thing (Currently in some sort of developement I am assuming...Heck..we've got 3 months to register EVERY HORSE IN CANADA WHO WANTS TO SHOW DRESSAGE! What's the rush???) Also, EC licenses, competitor's stickers, DC license and your membership to your local club. If I have that wrong, someone please correct me. It's a little muddy in my mind after trying to figure the whole thng out... WAY to get people to come out and try dressage! Make it so ridiculously expensive and time consuming that NO ONE will say..."Hey, I've always wanted to try that...Let's take Pal down there and have a go!"

And, for that you get NO CHAMPIONSHIPS. Want Championships? Go "Silver" and "surprise!!!", pay more money and hope like Heck your dressage club can find the upper level judges and stewards who are needed to judge those "required" FEI classes...whether anyone shows up fpr them or not...

Yup..those FEI riders in Backofbeyond Ontario are just going to over run the shows! There are so many we will be required to offer ALL FEI classes at every show!

OK, you've paid your money, you're going to the Championships....Better hope you either get lucky on the location, or the cost of gas goes down, because each Province is allowed to have ONE Championship show. So, if you live in Toronto and the show is in Ottawa, look forward to an 8-10 hour trailer ride to get there, or vice versa.

Did anyone inform these folks just how BIG some provinces are? That it can take most of a day in a car to drive across one?

The Driving folks have already gone to the USDF, if my memory serves....It may be time the Dressage folks followed suit.

Cinder

Sabovee
Sep. 12, 2007, 08:39 AM
It's sort of like watching the beginning of a slow death of the sport in Canada.

I'm proud to be a Canadian. I show and live in the US though. I'm sorry to say that this year I did not renew my EC, OEF or DC memberships... I thought, what's the point? It's not like any of these clubs have done a whole lot for me lately.

EC needs to follow suit with the US GMOs, where for a $45 membership per year (in our GMO anyway!) you're free to compete in as many shows as you like and vie for year end awards within your club.

PaulaM
Sep. 12, 2007, 10:04 AM
But UNCART isn't just going to effect dressage, it will effect every equestrian sport.

EC is doing away with passports, in it's place will be "Horse Identification Document". This will be required at all levels of showing, yup, you read that right.

There will be 3 Levels of showing: Bronze, Silver and Gold.

Bronze will be your 1 Day Schooling show level. You will have to have a
r, B, M level judge, you will have to have the following memberships: Provincial, EC Bronze Level and Dressage Canada minimum of Junior or Associate. Your horse will need it's Horse Identification Document and Horse Licence from EC. Permitted classes up to Fourth Level. But you don't qualify for any awards from DC or EC or even at the Provinicial level.

Silver Level Shows will be max. of 2 days.ClassesUp to Fourth Level plus FEI Children, FEI Pony, FEI Junior, FEI Young Rider, FEI Prix St Georges, FEI Intermediare 1 and FEI Intermediare 2 plus relevant Freestyles. Judges to be: r, B, M, S. Silver Level EC membership as well as DC minimum of Junior or Associate and PSO. Horse Identification Document and Horse Licence Required. You will qualify for Provincial Awards, DC Silver Awards and the Lauren Dilanni Award from Freestyles.

Gold Level Shows have no limit on the number of days. All tests can be offered. Judges can be B, M, S, or FEI. Memberships required: Gold EC Membership, DC Minimum of Junior or Senior, and PSO. Horse Identification Document and Horse licence required. You will qualify for Provincial Awards, DC National Awards, Lauren Dilanni Award from Freestyles, and the Dressage Canada 8 Awards.

personally, I don't see this as being beneficial to Dressage in Canada or any other equestrian sport in Canada. EC wants to get more money into their coffers and this is how they plan on doing it.

MyReality
Sep. 12, 2007, 11:05 AM
OK so they decide to kill Primary. :(

Ibex
Sep. 12, 2007, 11:07 AM
Wait a *&^@# minute, this means that for the three day, combined National / PaRC (Regional) competition, where I really don't care about year end awards, I'M GOING TO HAVE TO GET A GOLD membership?!?!?! I've been showing PaRC because I didn't see the need for an EC membership for a couple of smallish shows at Training/First...

And what about Horse Trials??? This means that everyone who wants to run a Starter level horse trial, that happens to run over three days instead of two (not uncommon around here), has to get their "Gold" membership?? Wow. That's going to turn a LOT of people away.

For both of these scenarios you only needed your Provincial membership to participate - a whole $45/annually...

:eek:


ETA: Someone on the EMG thread suggested that it would be possible to just get USEF/USDF memberships and use those instead. Is that correct if you're a Canadian resident??

snoopy
Sep. 12, 2007, 11:08 AM
dressagecanada.org has 91 pages of proposed rule changes for 2008...but you can get through alot of this as not all pages are really interesting reading eg: table of contents etc.

canyonoak
Sep. 12, 2007, 11:12 AM
What does UNCART stand for--in letters, not concepts, hahahahahahah

Ilex
Sep. 12, 2007, 11:27 AM
EC needs to follow suit with the US GMOs, where for a $45 membership per year (in our GMO anyway!) you're free to compete in as many shows as you like and vie for year end awards within your club.


It doesn't 'really' work that way in the US. You can only show at 'schooling shows' for no additional fees. If you show at 'recognized shows' and you are not a member of the NGB then you have to pay an additional fee every time you show.

IMHO ... there is a vast difference in quality between 'schooling shows' and 'recognized shows'.

***Although.......some of the places who offer 'recognized shows' are not doing a 'schooling show series'. In which the quality of the ground is usually excellent and the facilities are wonderful.***

Recognized dressage in the US is expensive!

OnyxThePony
Sep. 12, 2007, 03:00 PM
I still don't get the entire concept :confused: :confused:

Does this really mean- that for local schooling shows, we will need a Bronze membership plus an EC "Horse Identification" (aka the old "Passport")??? Or only for recognized EC schooling shows (the old "primary")??

And we'll need the Silver membership plus the Horse ID for provincial C level shows? Like for example Trillium or (here in Calgary) AHHS???

As a Coach, I"m not even sure which membership I apply for- or what it entitles me to!! Can anyone clarify that? Did I miss that somewhere??

Totally confused, here!!!!

neVar
Sep. 12, 2007, 05:06 PM
First off- UNCART has been in the works for a couple of years- it was SUPOSED to be in place in 2007 (and didn't happen). We (dressage groups) are still waiting on some answers as how this will affect us. . . primary thing i see is that we won't be able to really run primary (provincial) and EC shows at the same time/same judge as we do around here...

There are plusses and minus's to the system from what i've been informed about- i'm still confused as hell-

~Freedom~
Sep. 12, 2007, 07:13 PM
Does this apply to jumper as well?


I can see a lot of "bootleg" shows popping up run by the local barns with "invitees only".

neVar
Sep. 12, 2007, 07:31 PM
Yes it applies across the board all disciplins- the idea being you 'pay for what you play" in the jumper/hunter world (in my understanding) the high end shows (ie what is now recognized/"a" shows would have the higher fees (so what 2'9? 3" level) where those showing 2'3 would be only at permit/provincial shows (trillium??) as i understand it.... so can be some savings there for people.

But for dressage recognized starts at the lowest levels (training)... so price if you show recognized at training would not be different (possibly MORE) then we're paying now.... but i haven't had confirmation on that

Equibrit
Sep. 12, 2007, 07:39 PM
What is stopping somebody from starting another organization with their own rules/National Championships/points system? If they make it attractive enough and everybody defects what will EC do? If you went and rounded up some sponsorship and actually paid a purse to winners/placers I'll bet you could end up with something pretty good!

~Freedom~
Sep. 12, 2007, 08:01 PM
What is stopping somebody from starting another organization with their own rules/National Championships/points system? If they make it attractive enough and everybody defects what will EC do? If you went and rounded up some sponsorship and actually paid a purse to winners/placers I'll bet you could end up with something pretty good!

The power of any organization is in its ability to provide certain "services". In this case the EC or any national equestrian organization is recognized by the world body that decides at least on an international basis who qualifies for events at the FEI/international level. Any organization that puts forward their "champions" will find a cold reception.

It is also from the sub levels where selections to promote are found( via grants along with various other "services" that only an organization recognized internationally can offer).

I like the jumpers and they are already at the high end of expense output already with the nomination fees,memberships and class cost entries, now it will only be for the wealthy.

I wonder how the various fall/spring fairs will get around this?

Mallard
Sep. 12, 2007, 09:54 PM
Here is the link from the DC website...

http://www.dressagecanada.org/pdf/rules/2008_Dressage_Rules_DRAFT-310807.pdf

yes it is 91 pages long. Took forever to load.
I browsed thru it last night and have printed off the pages I need to study.
I'll take them to work tomorrow.
One thing I noticed was that, oh yes...Bronze riders can wear short boot and half chaps.
Great!
However, if you ride in half chaps you must have safety stirrups....not just for the juniors, but adults too.
And ponies can only have a 90cm whip...

I do encourage everyone to slog thru it all and please send in your comments.

OnyxThePony
Sep. 13, 2007, 01:37 AM
Here is the link from the DC website...

.
One thing I noticed was that, oh yes...Bronze riders can wear short boot and half chaps.
Great!
However, if you ride in half chaps you must have safety stirrups.....


Wholly...fffffff......... frack. Missed that. Who the Fruitbatting Hockeysticks has come up with this nonsense?!?!
Bootleg shows indeed!!!!! I"m all for THAT!!!!!

PS just to clarify, I know we're in the dressage forum, but in h/j the levels have nothing to do with jump heights. It's to do with the number/type of classes (sometimes higher jumps, obviously), # of days and prize money. UNLESS all that is changing now too??

bthatasitmay
Sep. 13, 2007, 02:51 AM
The passports were pretty good horse ID's. Already bought and paid for. Now we have to do it again? Many of the Primary shows already have low numbers competing. I could afford to show National level 30 years ago and I made less money then. I know it would be hard for the diehards, but what do you think they would do if no one applied for the memberships and took a year off showing?

~Freedom~
Sep. 13, 2007, 08:26 AM
what do you think they would do if no one applied for the memberships and took a year off showing?

That is what they should do in protest.

Sabovee
Sep. 13, 2007, 09:13 AM
It doesn't 'really' work that way in the US. You can only show at 'schooling shows' for no additional fees. If you show at 'recognized shows' and you are not a member of the NGB then you have to pay an additional fee every time you show.

IMHO ... there is a vast difference in quality between 'schooling shows' and 'recognized shows'.

***Although.......some of the places who offer 'recognized shows' are not doing a 'schooling show series'. In which the quality of the ground is usually excellent and the facilities are wonderful.***

Recognized dressage in the US is expensive!


I know how it works ;)

I understand that licensed shows are vastly more expensive BUT I was referring to the GMO schooling shows that allow for the grassroots riders to get their feet wet, which is what DC and EC need to keep in mind (and it sounds like the UNCART is going to kill the primary shows for those interested in trying out the sport).

snoopy
Sep. 13, 2007, 09:24 AM
I know how it works ;)

I understand that licensed shows are vastly more expensive BUT the GMO schooling shows allow for the grassroots riders to get their feet wet, which is what DC and EC need to keep in mind (and it sounds like the UNCART is going to kill the primary shows for those interested in trying out the sport).


Yes but where is it written that you are entitled to "try before you buy". Basically this boils down to paying to compete. It seems to me...especially at Primary level...that the cost goes up so as to have licenced judges. But the fact is nothing is for free and in the world we live in we must pay for the ride. There is a lot of "talk" when people feel that their membership money goes to something other than themselves but this is a short sighted way of thinking. EC and othes organizations need money to fund the business of horses and this money has to come from somewhere. Now I am known for being...well lets just say...cautious with my money;) but I understand the reasoning behind this. Horses, admin, shows, judges etc are an expensive business. There are many schooliing shows that are judged unfairly, unsafe etc so maybe this is their way of holding them to a standard as well as generate money for other areas of the sport in general.


This is not a DC thing... it is coming from the federation and each branch has little control over it.

Sabovee
Sep. 13, 2007, 09:44 AM
Yes but where is it written that you are entitled to "try before you buy".

Never said they were entitled BUT we should be making every effort to promote the sport at the lower levels by making it easy and less expensive to compete in. They (BOTH EC and DC) should be doing all they can to promote and foster the sport - I'm only talking about dressage, because that's the sport I'm familiar with in both countries.

Let's face it, dressage (and horses in general) is already an elitist sport. If we worked a bit harder to make the sport inviting and easy to get into we might actually give some of those talented people a chance to get their foot in the door and shine and become the foundation for future Olympic/WEG teams.

snoopy
Sep. 13, 2007, 10:05 AM
Never said they were entitled BUT we should be making every effort to promote the sport at the lower levels by making it easy and less expensive to compete in. They (BOTH EC and DC) should be doing all they can to promote and foster the sport - I'm only talking about dressage, because that's the sport I'm familiar with in both countries.

Let's face it, dressage (and horses in general) is already an elitist sport. If we worked a bit harder to make the sport inviting and easy to get into we might actually give some of those talented people a chance to get their foot in the door and shine and become the foundation for future Olympic/WEG teams.


I agree whole heartedly that the sport should be open to ANYONE who has an interest and I do not believe that the mission of EC is to exclude anyone...not in principal, and I see your point.

I see promoting and fostering the sport as a collective thing and unfortuanely this takes money to do it properly. It has to come from somewhere....

You reference giving talented people a chance...to become the foundation for future teams....and again I see what you are saying, but EC has serious trouble SENDING teams financially to these games because the federation does not have the money. Sucess brings about interest.
I have been involved in the sport most of my 41 years...I am NOT elitist and work hard for the money to persue my passion. I am never happy when prices go up...for anything.
But I look at it like universal health care, we must pay into the system for the greater good of the many.

Some people simply are not able to afford this sport...that is the truth, to face and deal with...it is reality. But I do not think the proposed changes are going to set this sport up for only the very wealthy, sure some may not feel the pinch and others may, but I see no way to feed the federation without something of this nature.

SillyHorse
Sep. 13, 2007, 10:52 AM
Obviously, being in the U.S. I don't have a dog in this fight. But the argument that this change will keep people from participating is dressage is not valid. You don't have to compete at the lowest levels to participate in dressage. You don't have to compete at all to enjoy this sport.

snoopy
Sep. 13, 2007, 10:57 AM
Obviously, being in the U.S. I don't have a dog in this fight. But the argument that this change will keep people from participating is dressage is not valid. You don't have to compete at the lowest levels to participate in dressage. You don't have to compete at all to enjoy this sport.


My point exactly. It is an unfortunate proposal..for some...but I do not see it as the death of the lower levels, or those who may be thinking about getting involved in the sport.

neVar
Sep. 13, 2007, 07:44 PM
thoughts so far (just getting through the tack)

The half chaps with safety stirrups only is crap- and i shall write saying it in nicer terms *L* i can tell you now- that it will take out almost ALL my juior riders unless this rule will be included for jumping shows as well.... i guess my tall boot sales will go up :roll:

YAH for swan necks being legal (if these changes pass)

Otherwise nothing else that jumps out at me... mostly rewording for the uncart coming in...

~Freedom~
Sep. 13, 2007, 08:13 PM
but I see no way to feed the federation without something of this nature.


--FEED-- Best description I have read so far of not only this organization but others as well.

It is like some people that have a hunger to feed themselves in excess to the point that more is needed to maintain an ever growing body. It is not the food basics that is asked for but the cupcakes and desserts and they are not really required to remain healthy.

And just who is supplying the sugar ( money) rich cupcakes that FEEDS that ever growing maw?

snoopy
Sep. 13, 2007, 08:35 PM
--FEED-- Best description I have read so far of not only this organization but others as well.

It is like some people that have a hunger to feed themselves in excess to the point that more is needed to maintain an ever growing body. It is not the food basics that is asked for but the cupcakes and desserts and they are not really required to remain healthy.

And just who is supplying the sugar ( money) rich cupcakes that FEEDS that ever growing maw?


But one can argue that EC is not "over weight" at the moment....I dare say it may be on the bread line where funding for different projects is concerned.

~Freedom~
Sep. 13, 2007, 08:56 PM
But one can argue that EC is not "over weight" at the moment....I dare say it may be on the bread line where funding for different projects is concerned.

I believe it has sat on the bread line with a tin cup out for many years. All the while it collects memberships that have gone up, show management fees that have gone up, passport "license" that has gone up, salaries that have gone up and yet it manages to send "selected" members to various improvement events to better themselves.

I don't show anymore and have no specific bone other than I hate to see a lovely sport destroyed by the tin cups coming out yet again for the backbone of the sport, the grass root riders to support the whims of those that most of the grass root supporters never nominated or elected into this position.

I agree with the OP that we must be heard and our opinions weighed and measured before the EC steamroller takes its' inevitable path.

snoopy
Sep. 13, 2007, 09:14 PM
I believe it has sat on the bread line with a tin cup out for many years. All the while it collects memberships that have gone up, show management fees that have gone up, passport "license" that has gone up, salaries that have gone up and yet it manages to send "selected" members to various improvement events to better themselves.

I don't show anymore and have no specific bone other than I hate to see a lovely sport destroyed by the tin cups coming out yet again for the backbone of the sport, the grass root riders to support the whims of those that most of the grass root supporters never nominated or elected into this position.

I agree with the OP that we must be heard and our opinions weighed and measured before the EC steamroller takes its' inevitable path.


But you could argue that the price of everything has gone up...not just with equestrian activities. EC is a business after all and it has to be run in such a way. But the majority...the grass roots has always help pay for the few...in all areas. Whilst I am not a fan of this system, it really is the only way that a company can make money.
Of course, I could not agree more with regards to the voices of the masses to be heard and what the proposed increases will do for everyone across the board.
But I do believe that the whole process has to be a collective effort and that all members should benefit in some way. I would hate for it to be of benefit for a select few. Finances/spending has to be justified.

fullmoon fever
Sep. 13, 2007, 09:38 PM
but what do you think they would do if no one applied for the memberships and took a year off showing?

That definitely gets my vote.

I am a "lifetime" member of EC, but every freaking year I have to call, email and beg to get my damn card. It's a LIFETIME membership, just send me a LIFETIME card and I'll stop calling for a crappy cardboard one.

I am entitled to a new rule book every couple of years. Do you think I ever get one of those w/o begging too? :rolleyes:

cinder88
Sep. 13, 2007, 11:59 PM
But you could argue that the price of everything has gone up...not just with equestrian activities. EC is a business after all and it has to be run in such a way.

BINGO.

It is a business that I am basically a stockholder in.

As a stockholder, having paid my membership, I expect a few things.

Such as:
-information.
-a say in huge decisions that will effect my future with the group.
-answers when questions are asked.
- due diligence before announcments are made that it is patenely obvious to ALL cannot be followed through with within the time frame noted. (IE: phasing out of Passports. How many $$$$'s did they lose over the last two years because people didn't want to buy passports if they were going to have to turn around and buy new ones??? It was irresponsible management.)
- access to meeting minutes.
- availability of a question and answer forum concerning the entire UNCART programme.
- more time to digest the details of UNCART BEFORE we are asked to comment on it.
- processes in place BEFORE a change is made, to make sure that change is made smoothly. (IE: Does anyone KNOW how the whole passport/horse license thing is going to work? And, is there a process inplace to make sure that ALL the members who want the new documentation can get it in a timely manner?)
Oh, and the actual DETAILS would be useful, too. The hows/whys and wherefores of the entire project. And, the prices.

We are given three weeks to make our comments about the Rule Changes, including a programme we basically have very little information about but will change the entire face of showing in Canada???


If EC is a "business", then it should be run as a business.

Believe me, if I were a stockholder in a business that made decisions in this haphazard manner, and treated its stockholders like EC treats its members, I'd find somewhere else to invest my money.

Oh.

Silly me....

THERE IS NO WHERE ELSE IF YOU WANT TO SHOW IN CANADA.

OK, EC, I get it. You're the only game in town, so can do whatever you want to.

Carry on.

Cinder

fullmoon fever
Sep. 14, 2007, 12:11 PM
OK, EC, I get it. You're the only game in town, so can do whatever you want to.
Cinder


You know, I've pretty much ALWAYS felt that way about EC. It just got worse when they started doing things like "one time" fees that carried over for several years (possibly still being charged) for a computer system (I think) that was never put into effect.

EC runs itself like a governmental organization, and we all know how efficient and user-friendly those are. :mad:

OnyxThePony
Sep. 14, 2007, 02:51 PM
Unfortunatly I ditto all the negative statements. Maybe should have posted that under an alter.

A rule book? I own three pahphlets. Only took 20 YEARS to get those!!

As someone over on EMG pointed out, I could join USEF and AEF and still show- while paying 1/2 what I give to EC and getting twice the benefits!!

I have no problem with 'you dont' pay you can't play". HOWever- I expect to 'get' something for what I pay. IRL at the grocery store, I buy filet and not hot dogs. But I come home with filet, so no problem there. But EC fees are like paying for filet and getting hot dogs. Or Spam. Or orange juice.....

LivviesMom
Sep. 14, 2007, 03:36 PM
BINGO.

It is a business that I am basically a stockholder in.

As a stockholder, having paid my membership, I expect a few things.

Such as:
-information.
-a say in huge decisions that will effect my future with the group.
-answers when questions are asked.
- due diligence before announcments are made that it is patenely obvious to ALL cannot be followed through with within the time frame noted. (IE: phasing out of Passports. How many $$$$'s did they lose over the last two years because people didn't want to buy passports if they were going to have to turn around and buy new ones??? It was irresponsible management.)
- access to meeting minutes.
- availability of a question and answer forum concerning the entire UNCART programme.
- more time to digest the details of UNCART BEFORE we are asked to comment on it.
- processes in place BEFORE a change is made, to make sure that change is made smoothly. (IE: Does anyone KNOW how the whole passport/horse license thing is going to work? And, is there a process inplace to make sure that ALL the members who want the new documentation can get it in a timely manner?)
Oh, and the actual DETAILS would be useful, too. The hows/whys and wherefores of the entire project. And, the prices.

We are given three weeks to make our comments about the Rule Changes, including a programme we basically have very little information about but will change the entire face of showing in Canada???


If EC is a "business", then it should be run as a business.

Believe me, if I were a stockholder in a business that made decisions in this haphazard manner, and treated its stockholders like EC treats its members, I'd find somewhere else to invest my money.

Oh.

Silly me....

THERE IS NO WHERE ELSE IF YOU WANT TO SHOW IN CANADA.

OK, EC, I get it. You're the only game in town, so can do whatever you want to.

Carry on.

Cinder

Hear Hear.
This year was the first time I have ever had to contact EC. WHAT A NIGHTMARE!

I called to ask a question about a Temporary License for the Royal..never got a call back..finally got some answers from a different source. Apparently we must all have full EC memberships for liability- ok I can see that but wait... isn't that what I paid for when I insured my horse independantly? If I can prove I have insurance what difference does it make?? OH!! DUH! EC gets $100 for me to show in one 15 min line class, when I am not required to have the membership to compete in my classes anyway leading up to the Royal. so the temp license was a great thing for those needing it in that case.. I suspect A ton of people will be scrambling for memberships...

SO I finally call and find out I can get an "associate" membership for $60 great! added to the $50 OEF provincial membership that I need thats 110 instead of 150.. not so bad
BUT WAIT! Then I am told after sending my entry in that an Associate license MAY not be acceptable.. LORD ALMIGHTY! I NNED A DRINK!

So Cinder I agree with you on all points. How many horses and riders are members of EC across the country at $100 a pop? And we get no info or feed back period. Its rediculous.

Bambe
Sep. 17, 2007, 10:51 PM
The issue for me is that you cannot charge people unless you can show them the benefit of what they are paying. As far as I can see, those that compete at our primary circuit will not recieve any more but will be paying more. they are already carrying the costs of the judge, fees etc., etc.,.

Not to mention the terrible communication (or total lack of) about this!!

canyonoak
Sep. 17, 2007, 11:41 PM
Would one of you Canadians sort of outline what fees you currently pay and what fees you will have to pay if this UNCART plan is carried out?


Im aware that UNCART sounds dreadfully complicated and expensive, and I got the bronze silver and gold levels...but I cannot figure out the actual fee hikes.

thanks.

cinder88
Sep. 18, 2007, 10:12 AM
Canyon....you likely can't figure out the actual fee hike because (to my knowledge) the info hasn't been made public yet.

We're supposed to "comment" on this information, but haven't actually received the info yet. Makes for very knowledgeable discussion, huh?

Currently, to show Primary, (Where we DO have licensed judges already, BTW...), you require an OEF card, which basically covers the shows insurance needs, and to be a member of the club or pay a visitors fee. You can also be a member of CADORA, who handles the provincial end of things and put out an omnibus.

Under UNCART, if I read it correctly, to show Primary (Bronze inthe new designation..), you will need an EC membership, a DC membership, a Horse License (Which you'll have to get anyway, as it is a gov't initiative that I'm all for...), a Sport license sticker, an Amateur sticker (Because it costs EXTRA to be an Amatuer!), and an OEF membership. That's going to be some wad of cash, especially the year you have to buy the Horse License.

For this, you get shows with NO steward, possible drug testing (?!...but no steward???WTF?), and no year end championships.

If you go Silver, the price of memberships doesn't change drastically, but the entries will, because the clubs wil have to pay for judges who are able to judge the FEI levels because you will have to offer those classes. Add in the cost of the FEI level Steward for all those FEI riders who are suddenly going to descend upon us...apparently they've all been hiding all these years when we've RARELY if ever had anyone above 4th level...IF you can find a judge and steward who have the qualifications, they will likely need to be flown in to many locations and put in a hotel.

And, in Silver, you DO get a Championship show, but only ONE...so be prepared to perhaps trailer your horse up to 14 hours to get there. We currently have Ontario split into TWO Championship shows using the same judges on both weekends.

Cinder

canyonoak
Sep. 18, 2007, 11:47 AM
well, I see the improvements already!

hahahahahahahahahahaha

neVar
Sep. 18, 2007, 12:12 PM
my big issue is we're still not getting enough information to RUN our shows- right now we run a provincial level (heritage) classes and EC class 8 (or 7) at thes ame time, same judge- we won't be able to do that- but how to change our shows around yet? i have no clue. Let alone judges for a bronze level show next year

Rival
Sep. 18, 2007, 12:48 PM
I think it will be the death of dressage in B.C. Our shows only average around 100 people as is and that is usually with the park running along side it.

OnyxThePony
Sep. 18, 2007, 01:45 PM
Just so Americans can grasp what we're facing, and know that we're not a bunch of whiney non-payers.. here's a very rough (very rough) guide to fees under the old and new system, as cinder layed out:

Old system:
Provincial membership (provinces are like states, right, so OEF, AEF, BCHC): $30
Sport Membership (this is somewhat like your GMO but more federal. Equine Canada leaves it to many sport organizations to actually run their sports, with the 'partnership' of EC.. again not really, since all it is, is EC dumping duties on an organization and then poking it's head in once in a while to foul things up. Sond like your boss? See what we have to deal with? Anyway, for Dressage for eq it's CADORA, inAlberta for hunters it's AHHA, show jumping in Alberta ASJA, etc etc): $30
TOTAL: $60/year

New System:
Provincial Membership:$30
Sport Membership: $30
Horse Identification:$110 one time fee, with validation required yearly, other requirements by need, for example coggins pulled every three years ($80), pony height card, changes, Updates (eg sale of horse or change in eligibility) etc
Yearly Horse Identification Fee ("Liscence"): used to be $10 now rumored to be $20 or more
Federal Membership: $80 (approx) for Bronze
Ammie Status: $20 (approx)
TOTAL: $160 PLUS your Horse Identification and upkeep so say ($200 in your first year)


So, for someone entering the game at this level, or moving from their regular circuit for this year to next, it'll go from $60 to over $300. (ROUGHLY!!!!! As EC hasn't given any indication of actual costs, based on current costs and 'rumours').

But for this we get: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!! in return. At some point, having all horses ID'd in Canada may be a very good move. I won't get into the debate, it's not valid here, BECAUSE it's not going to happen anytime soon, and this particular move is not part of a political or stratigical push to make that happen. This, my friends, is a cash grab.

Hony
Sep. 18, 2007, 02:32 PM
I believe there is a little confusion with regard to UNCART.
As of now to show at a non-nationally sanctioned level you only require OEF which is a provincial equestrian federation - they do provide insurance but that is not their primary purpose. As well you will need a membership to Dressage Canada and if you show CADORA then you will need that too.
If you show at a nationally sanctioned show you will need a passport (or license sticker to renew your passport) which is about $110 per year.

With Uncart the passport is supposed to be significantly reduced in price which for someone at Training level is a good thing. You will still have to pay your OEF, DC and CADORA but the EC membership will actually be lower.

This does not stop anyone from organizing a schooling show that is not EC santioned. You wouldn't need any memberships for that.

One thing is that in Canada we do not hold a lot of schooling type events or unrecognized shows. If we did that then the EC change would not cause many issues.

Ibex
Sep. 18, 2007, 02:44 PM
This does not stop anyone from organizing a schooling show that is not EC santioned. You wouldn't need any memberships for that.

One thing is that in Canada we do not hold a lot of schooling type events or unrecognized shows. If we did that then the EC change would not cause many issues.

There are actually a lot of them in dressage and h/j... In BC a lot of the Riding Clubs (something I'd never heard of in Ontario) put on a lot of the schooling shows, complete with EC tests and "r" judges.

And that's where it's changing - in order to have "real" judges, and use the EC tests, the schooling shows will have to become Bronze shows, and all that goes with it, right down to the dress code.

According to the document, shows and EC judges will be prosecuted / penalized for using EC tests at a non-sanctioned show.

How do schooling shows work in the states? Does the USEF/USDF care if anyone uses "their" tests at an unrecognized show without paying a ton of fees?

petitefilly
Sep. 18, 2007, 03:45 PM
Just so Americans can grasp what we're facing, and know that we're not a bunch of whiney non-payers.. here's a very rough (very rough) guide to fees under the old and new system, as cinder layed out:

Old system:
Provincial membership (provinces are like states, right, so OEF, AEF, BCHC): $30
Sport Membership (this is somewhat like your GMO but more federal. Equine Canada leaves it to many sport organizations to actually run their sports, with the 'partnership' of EC.. again not really, since all it is, is EC dumping duties on an organization and then poking it's head in once in a while to foul things up. Sond like your boss? See what we have to deal with? Anyway, for Dressage for eq it's CADORA, inAlberta for hunters it's AHHA, show jumping in Alberta ASJA, etc etc): $30
TOTAL: $60/year

New System:
Provincial Membership:$30
Sport Membership: $30
Horse Identification:$110 one time fee, with validation required yearly, other requirements by need, for example coggins pulled every three years ($80), pony height card, changes, Updates (eg sale of horse or change in eligibility) etc
Yearly Horse Identification Fee ("Liscence"): used to be $10 now rumored to be $20 or more
Federal Membership: $80 (approx) for Bronze
Ammie Status: $20 (approx)
TOTAL: $160 PLUS your Horse Identification and upkeep so say ($200 in your first year)


So, for someone entering the game at this level, or moving from their regular circuit for this year to next, it'll go from $60 to over $300. (ROUGHLY!!!!! As EC hasn't given any indication of actual costs, based on current costs and 'rumours').

But for this we get: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!!! in return. At some point, having all horses ID'd in Canada may be a very good move. I won't get into the debate, it's not valid here, BECAUSE it's not going to happen anytime soon, and this particular move is not part of a political or stratigical push to make that happen. This, my friends, is a cash grab.

Man, you guys really do have a bitch, don't ya'? Sounds pretty rottento me too. What is the governing body's position to you? Pay up or quit? Or do they say anything?

cheekyhorse
Sep. 18, 2007, 05:26 PM
I think it will be the death of dressage in B.C. Our shows only average around 100 people as is and that is usually with the park running along side it.

Absolutley, this whole thing is ludicris to me. I believe I will be showing south of the border next year other than maybe seeing if there will be few bootleg shows here if some choose to hold some. That's a shame...... I'm sure others will be doing the same.

neVar
Sep. 18, 2007, 11:44 PM
Rival- 100 people?? lucky duck- our dressage shows average 20-25 |RIDERS per show!!!

Jazzy Lady
Sep. 19, 2007, 01:01 AM
I haven't sat down and read how it pertained to eventing, but after shelling out over $400 for an FEI passport which INCLUDED the insert for the national passport, I'm not looking forward to shelling out more money for this other thing too.

Brigit
Sep. 19, 2007, 11:53 AM
So basically it's going to cost riders even more $$ to show. How dissappointing.

I'm thoroughly all for the *bootleg* shows as previously mentioned. I already can't afford to show at most of the "big" shows around my area. Not to mention the actual show fees but the EC passports and all that are friggen expensive as is. What a money grabbing scam.

No longer is our sport about having fun and enjoying our horse's talents, its all about money. It's rather unfortunate that this will probably cause a lot of fantastic riders to fade off and possibly even dissappear. And it will probably deter a lot of up and coming riders from trying the sport.

Oh and to add on to whoever said about the size of the provinces. Yes they are HUGE. As mentioned it can take a long day to drive ACROSS a province, now if you had to drive from north to south it'd take a lot longer than that! That's WHY they split the shows/championships up.

Bambe
Sep. 24, 2007, 09:54 PM
EC has posted their 'white paper':
I haven't read it yet, but at least there is a communication!

http://www.equinecanada.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=249&Itemid=406

cinder88
Sep. 25, 2007, 08:11 PM
I read this document a few times, trying to get the jist of it.

IMO, basically it is a document talking about the re-organizing of EC in order to make more money.

There is no mention of the UNCART idea that I can see, although it talks vaguely about changing the organization of equine sports into separate areas of "Recreation", "Sport" and "Breeders/Equine industry".

So, while it may be "information", it really doesn't address the questions that most members have. Unimportant things like..."How will dressage in Canada work next year?", "How much is it going to cost me?", "Is there ANY possibility that EC can get their %^&* together and actually make this thing work by January?", "How are all those volunteers that currently run 90% of the shows supposed to PLAN for next year when they have no information?"

You know...details like that...

And CADORA has NOTHING to say. If you contact them about UNCART, their reply...and I have seen the reply...will be..."Contact EC..". SO, although CADORA is supposed to have a rep on EC/DC, they have the same info as we do...basically none, and they don't seem real worried about it. Not a word ontheir site, no opinion posted anywhere...CADORA may cease to exist in 4 months and so far, they don't seem reall concerned, at least outwordly...

Again, "cluster***" comes to mind.

Cinder

fullmoon fever
Sep. 26, 2007, 02:01 PM
IMO, basically it is a document talking about the re-organizing of EC in order to make more money.
Cinder

Wasn't that their reasoning behind changing from CEF to EC a few years back? The same old shell game, once again. :mad:

cinder88
Sep. 26, 2007, 04:27 PM
A friend pointed out that the proposed budget from "Governance", which is defined as memberships, horse license and magazine sales (NOT show fees), is projected to rise by $700,000.00 between the 2007 and the 2008 budget.

I'm pretty sure the gov't isn't handing out chunks of cash...Exactly where do you suppose this money will come from?

Cinder

Ibex
Sep. 26, 2007, 07:16 PM
I just got my Horse Council BC renewal papers and it included a brief survey about types/levels of showing I do, and it was listed as the following:

Discovery (Local)
Bronze (Regional)
Silver (Provincial)
Gold (National)
Platinum (FEI)

Has anyone else heard of the "Discovery" level before??

cinder88
Sep. 26, 2007, 07:20 PM
I don't believe it is mentioned in the proposed rule book changes on DC....you might go have a look.

Cinder

Ibex
Sep. 26, 2007, 07:37 PM
I don't believe it is mentioned in the proposed rule book changes on DC....you might go have a look.

Cinder

I read the rules and don't remember seeing this on the chart, which is why I was asking :)

cinder88
Sep. 26, 2007, 11:13 PM
Sorry, I didn't answer your actual question, did I?

I heard briefly of Discovery when this whole hting was first alked about 2 years or so, ago. Haven't heard anything except Bronze, Silver and Gold since then.

Cinder

PS...maybe Discovery is for the "Leisure" section of the proposal? There is supposed to be three sections...Leisure, Sport and Industry.

Ibex
Sep. 27, 2007, 11:36 AM
Sorry, I didn't answer your actual question, did I?

I heard briefly of Discovery when this whole hting was first alked about 2 years or so, ago. Haven't heard anything except Bronze, Silver and Gold since then.

Cinder

PS...maybe Discovery is for the "Leisure" section of the proposal? There is supposed to be three sections...Leisure, Sport and Industry.

Hmmmm.... I wonder if there's any way to get small local shows classified as "discovery" within the Leisure section... maybe then we can use the tests without paying $$$ to EC for a little schooling show!

Shawnda N
Sep. 27, 2007, 11:40 AM
The Indentification Documentation will be replacing the passport system, and it all ties into the Universal Equine Life # (UELN) that the Canadian gov't is forcing implementation of because of all the Mad Cow scare. All Agricultural animals (horses included) will be required to have a lifetime ID number. Even the backyard ponies will need a number if they ever wish to leave the property. One way of obtaining these numbers is through a CLRC (Canadian Livestock Recods Corp.) recognized Breed Assoc. or through various others methods inculding Equine Canada with their Indentification Documentation program.
It will be a one time/one number per horse that the horse keeps for life.

HXF
Sep. 27, 2007, 01:18 PM
...bascially voicing my dispappointment at the way this was handled and that I may be joining the growing number of Canadian Equestrians considering a boycott of membership renewals in 2008.
For the price of a senior competitor membership, I really feel a was due at least an e-mail or letter - this has huge implications...

cinder88
Sep. 27, 2007, 02:48 PM
Shawnda...I absolutely agree with the Horse Identification Number.

I even agree, (in principal), that the EC needs to re-organize.

If I had more info, (and if it wasn't being done on the backs of the grass roots riders), I might convince myself that the UNCART thing is a good idea.

But, do we have to attempt to do them ALL AT ONCE??? This is an organization that can't get a RULE book that BARELY CHANGES from year to year, out on time for the show season....and they're going to do all this by January?

I sincerely hope someone realizes that this is nigh on impossible to execute in this period of time. When it gets half-assed done and it is the VOLUNTEERS at every shows who have to figure out what the heck is going on and how to make it work, it is going to make those same volunteers NOT want to deal with it next year. Because, THAT is who is going to be stuck with the decisions from on high....the volunteers.

Cinder

Alice
Sep. 27, 2007, 03:42 PM
Could someone propose a cap on the number of "one-time" fees that will be imposed upon us??

I'm sure that EC is composed of people committed to furthering horse sports in Canada, but for the love of god, do NOT dare to impose another "one-time" fee.

It only adds to the perception(?) of a money grab...

How many times are we to meekly ante up another one timer?

neVar
Sep. 27, 2007, 11:44 PM
the ueln (gosh are those the right initials?) have been talked about for quite a few years (5?) i agree my biggest issue with this is the lack of information to us members, us competition organizers (who have been asking since spring) us provincial organizations (The saskatchewan dressage development association asked for more informaiton back in spring to pass onto the other organizations). . .

~Freedom~
Sep. 28, 2007, 01:37 AM
the ueln (gosh are those the right initials?) have been talked about for quite a few years (5?) i agree my biggest issue with this is the lack of information to us members, us competition organizers (who have been asking since spring) us provincial organizations (The saskatchewan dressage development association asked for more informaiton back in spring to pass onto the other organizations). . .

UELN= Universal Equine Life Number

Shawnda N
Sep. 28, 2007, 08:47 AM
It is frustrating to get any new informatiom about the UELN or Equine Identification Number. Equine Canada did have much more informtaion and regular up-dates about this on their web site, but the web site is also being re-done, and the only information that they left up there dates back to 2003. I had been following this topic and had printed out everything from the Equine Canada website and other sites, and Thank Goddess I did , as it has mostly all disappeared !
There is suppossed to be a new press release coming out soon from a meeting held in August.

~Freedom~
Oct. 9, 2007, 12:14 AM
Reading the EMG canadian forum someone emailed DC to find out more.

I am not sure if the answers make things clearer or more muddled.


I asked a series of questions and most have been answered: My question/comment in Italics. I bolded sections for emphasis. If a Horse License is required at a show but a steward isn't who is responsible for the documentation?:
1. You ask "who is going to police the requirement of license?" The answer to that is that there is no change whatsoever here - the Competition Management and Secretary is responsible for making sure that all entries have the required documentation. Just as you require proof of provincial membership now, you will require proof of Bronze License. Note: My question was for the Horse license. This has now been eliminated for bronze as per below
Is the 'free zone outlined in the document mandatory? It may cause shows to run fewer rings
2. On the 'free zone' around your ring - I would like to know more here, and this discussion should be opened to include stewards. The purpose of the space is safety, remove confusion - The Competitions Committee would like to see flexibility on this as long as the above issues of safety and confusion are addressed. If the World Cup can be allowed to cut three feet off their ring, and have no space to ride around I think that we need to state what is optimal, but keep some balance in this. I have copied the original people on this, and expect that Joanna in Rules is shuddering now.
Why are there no championships at the Bronze Level?
3. No Championship at Bronze. Individual competitions can have Championships - that is fine. I would like to see this grow to include a series or a zone but more work is needed here.
Just to be sure on a few costs. The Bronze Level will require a sport license ($20 - this will be finalized at Sport Council in November), there will be NO requirement for horse documentation/license in 2008.
Requiring all of this documentation will virtually end all first time riders from other disciplines from coming to 'try out' dressage:
You also refer to small barn competitions - these may well fit nicely into the DISCOVERY level which will be one level below Bronze and will be managed by the Provinces. The Dressage Canada Board is now finalizing details such as what tests will be allowed at this level.
I have since heard that the DISCOVERY Level was in the original UNCART document but had been dropped from the current one. It looks like it is being resurrected in response to the lack of a venue for Primary riders.
I hope this helps to provide a clearer picture, and a few answers to your questions.:eek:


http://www.equiman.com/cgi-bin/ubb/Forum12/HTML/002124.html

cinder88
Oct. 9, 2007, 10:14 AM
There is this thing called a "focus group".

EC might want to look into this before they make any more pronouncements that make them look silly when the people who actually RUN the shows start asking questions of things that don't make sense. Having some of the executive of a few clubs actually LOOK at this crap before they put it out there would have saved them some embarrassment and a whole lot of bad feeling...

One question....will CADORA be involved in the Discovery level???

Cinder

cinder88
Oct. 9, 2007, 06:05 PM
That post has now been pulled off of EMG...No notice to the poster, just deleted by the Mods...

Cinder

~Freedom~
Oct. 9, 2007, 07:08 PM
That post has now been pulled off of EMG...No notice to the poster, just deleted by the Mods...

Cinder

There is nothing in that post to warrant its removal.:confused: It actually answered some questions. I am glad I happen to be browsing and picked it up as it indicated there would be a discovery level, something that has only been guessed at.

Mallard
Oct. 9, 2007, 08:38 PM
I rec'd 2 responses from the 10 people I emailed...

When I asked about membership/licence costs this is the response from person number 1 :

"I believe this is a question for Anne Welch"

When I asked about safety stirrups for riders wearing half chaps and the added expense this puts on Bronze riders this is the response:
" Is there a good reason not to wear safety stirrups?"
"If we remove the rule and someone gets hurt because their boot gets caught, we will all wish we had left the rule alone, don't you think?"
"No-one is trying to spend others' money"

And on the rule that the whip carried by pony riders (of which I am one) can only be 90cm...
"The rule is in line with the FEI and I believe it takes into account the size of the animal, not the size of the rider."
"No rider is forced to carry a whip as far as I know."

I also said that I had never seen a whip that short...
And in fact when I was at the local tack shop on Saturday we measured every whip and NONE were less than 100 cm.
I will have to get myself a very long jumping bat!!


Person number 2 sent me this:

"Apologies for taking so long to try to answer this. I am currently relegated to very few available hours per week. Your questions are good ones and your frustration is warranted. That being said, this revamping of how all disciplines do their business of competition has taken a long time to iron out - four years to be truthful. So some answers.

Fees will be set at November Sport Council. What is expected is this: Bronze $20, Silver $60, Gold $100
Bronze Competition will NOT require horse identification/passport/horse license in 2008.
Current Passports will be valid and allowed for several years to come.
Dressage Canada Board will make final decision on DC membership and at what level."

cinder88
Oct. 9, 2007, 10:38 PM
There is nothing in that post to warrant its removal.:confused: It actually answered some questions. I am glad I happen to be browsing and picked it up as it indicated there would be a discovery level, something that has only been guessed at.

Answered some questions????

WELL! THAT"S ENOUGH OF THAT!

Apparently, EC would liek to answer questions one member at a time. Ever so efficient.

Kind of like how this whole thing has gone...Ever so efficiently!

Once again I suggest...

EC! PUT TOGETHER AN FAQ PAGE!!!!!

OTOH, wouldn't it be great if EVERY member sent in a question or 6?

Cinder

neVar
Oct. 9, 2007, 11:36 PM
cinder i'm completely with you on that! wow some suggested fees- more information then i've had forwarded to me (asking on behalf of the saskatchewan dressage association as well as the Saskatoon district Cadora). the bronze level if that's on top of the current provincial prices just upped the bronze riders fees up $20.

as to the half chaps i'm completely irked by that rule- WHERE is the information stating that half chaps are 'dangerous' footwear and must be with a safety stirrup? god knows ponyclub doesn't require that! and i sure as heck in my 10+ years of selling TACK have NEVER EVER heard that 'half chaps are dangerous" compared to a tall boot. what are we gunna do if someone gets dragged in dress boots? require safety stirrups at all levels? how about safety vests, HELMETS ???

AdAblurr02
Oct. 10, 2007, 01:52 PM
Ye Gods........

and to think, there are a few very vocal American politicians who advocate following the oh-so-successful Canadian model of governmental "control" in all phases of life! (think socialized medicine, for one)

Government out of control is more what this sounds like.

I feel for my northern neighbors. Keep on pressuring them for answers to your tough questions, this high-handed treatment is sure to be to the detriment of the entire Canadian horse industry!

perpetual_novice
Oct. 10, 2007, 07:30 PM
Ye Gods........

and to think, there are a few very vocal American politicians who advocate following the oh-so-successful Canadian model of governmental "control" in all phases of life! (think socialized medicine, for one)

Government out of control is more what this sounds like.

I feel for my northern neighbors. Keep on pressuring them for answers to your tough questions, this high-handed treatment is sure to be to the detriment of the entire Canadian horse industry!

DC and EC are not government agencies; they are comparable in many respects to USEF.

Can we please keep views on our medical, government systems out of this? It is really not horse related. Unless of course if you count the fact that for my various horse related injuries I have never had to wait for an HMO's approval before I sought treatment.

Back to the discussion at hand...

cinder88
Oct. 10, 2007, 08:56 PM
It would appear that the ENTIRE thread on that "other" Canadian board has been deleted.

That was a thread that went on for a month or more...had tons of good info in it and *poof*, gone.

It truly tells us what EC/DC thinks of their membership.

First, they pull rank and have a post removed.

Then, they have the entire thread removed.

Now, the info is ALSO gone from the EC/DC site.

WHAT is the big secret?

I spend hours and hours every week doing work for my own dressage club. I put a lot of time and energy into it, not to mention paying my fees for various memberships. Dressage in Canada is important to me, yet I see very little communication from what is supposed to be an organization that supports me in my endeavours.

A few people DO get answers, attempt to share them with others who have the same questions, and the thread suddenly disapears. It seems that as long as it was all conjecture and guessing on our part, it was OK. But, don't let any actual FACTS out to the unwashed masses, whatever you do!

Our AGM is coming up in a week...What do we tell our membership? "Please buy your 2008 memberships for the club, but we don't really know how the entire system is going to work, how much it will end up costing you or what shows we will be offering..."??? That would sure make me want to fork over MY membership fee!

Cinder

UPDATE....the thread has now been replaced on the other board.

All FACTS have been editted out to protect the innocent.

~Freedom~
Oct. 10, 2007, 10:30 PM
And the iron curtain falls. :eek: I just don't know why we have all this cloak and dagger. :no:

It is straight out from "The Spy that came in from the Cold".

Loved Richard Burton in that movie.

dilligaff2
Oct. 11, 2007, 10:30 AM
Hi all,

It was my thread that was pulled down. Go Figure!

All I was trying to do was COMMUNICATE some answers--not start a cold war.:eek: I wrongly assumed that when I received a reply from the Public Feedback process that it was OK for public eyes.:no:

Why things have spiralled out of control like this--I don't know-- but it is making a lot of people look like fools.

CatOnLap
Oct. 11, 2007, 11:55 AM
Nuke 'em and start over.
But what do I know? I've got a cat on my lap

Elatu
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:08 PM
From my 30+ years experience with the powers that be in EC/CHSA/CEF/ whatever they are calling themselves right now that they don't give a rats ass about anyone except for themselves. As long as they have everyone suckered in the pay more money, they totally ignore e-mails, letters, phone calls, and any other form of communication.
A perfect example was the "dressage director" who was initially getting paid 30K a year; and this was over 20 years ago. Where was she? Judging, doing clinics, travelling here and there and NEVER in her office! I sent letters (before e-mails), and guess what? NOTHING was ever responded to.
What's in it for the little guy with EC/DC? It's all about "international teams". It's not about initiative or education for the grass-roots who take up the majority of their memberships.
Well, if I can't play with the big dogs, I'm smart enough to stay on the porch. I don't aspire to be the "elite" rider, and neither does 99% of the rest of the riders. We just simply don't come from rich families, or or married to investment bankers to let us buy big money horses, and fly them to Europe when we feel like it.
Hell, EC can't even come up with rule books for judges! They tell their judges to download and print off the rules! If you are a breed judge and a performance judge, that's a lot of copying, and a huge binder you have to lug around.
As far as I am concerned the EC is treating us like mushrooms, highly noticible by having information removed on their own site, as well as message boards removed.
Treat us like mushrooms............keep us in the dark and feed us horse sh*t.
I vote for joining CADORA, having the local clubs run shows using CADORA tests, and telling EC to get stuffed.

cinder88
Oct. 11, 2007, 02:14 PM
I'm there, ELATU!

How do we go about using the USDF in Canada?

Cinder

Elatu
Oct. 11, 2007, 05:04 PM
Cinder: Good question. I guess call the USDF? I'm sure they would like our memberships! At least we'll get a magazine for our dues (and a pretty nice one at that!)

Mallard
Oct. 11, 2007, 08:44 PM
My entire post was also removed from EMG...
And yes...it does make them all look like fools who are trying to hide something...

cinder88
Oct. 11, 2007, 09:42 PM
Can someone tell me where all the other disciplines are in this mess?

Do the h/j's or eventers or drivers have to deal with this in 2008, or we in dressage the guinea pigs?

So, now they are dumping the Horse License idea for another year? The one thing that is likely a GOOD idea? The thing they've been talking about for years as going to happen NEXT year, NEXT year, NEXT year, is now going to happen...next year?

Where is the information that was on the site?

Where is the "open and transparent communication" talked about in the vaunted "White Paper". You remember the White Paper? The one that came out that was supposed to answer ALL our questions, but didn't actually address anyhting except the re-organization of EC?

From this volunteer's point of view, I feel really used. Will I want to pour hours into the club next year? I'm obviously so valued by EC/DC...makes me want to really go out of my way to keep their organization running...

Cinder

Ibex
Nov. 5, 2007, 01:50 PM
Has there been any news on this...?

We've been hearing rumours that it's put off again... indefinitly...

Mozart
Nov. 5, 2007, 02:02 PM
I attended my provincial AGM on Thursday night and the Board did not have any further info.

cinder88
Nov. 5, 2007, 05:01 PM
I contacted the USDF approx. 2 weeks ago and received a response that my question would be forwarded to the appropriate rep. Nothing yet.

I really wish DC/EC would get it together.

Some of us "volunteers" would like to know whether we have to start from scratch to put together next years' shows, or if we can continue as we have done.

I believe that the rule is the Prize List must sent out 6 weeks in advance of the first show? That neabs that we wiould have to mail in March...which means we will have to put it together before the end of February...Which means we need info from EC/DC before the end of January....'cause we like to have a little time to make sure everything is corect before we send it to the printers.

I, for one, don't plan on spending my entire December/January huddled around my computer trying to figure out wht the &*(% to do to get it to my members on time, and in understadable format.

Obviously, EC/DC doesn't share my feelings..

Cinder

Dalriada
Nov. 7, 2007, 02:02 PM
And the EC AGM is generally the first week in Feb. Nothing like them wanting us to pay memberships in Dec and Jan when they haven't got a clue for how this is to work.

Regarding UELN - I have horses that are breed registered (and some with multiple registries), who is the designated UELN assignee??? The first one that registered the animal, or EC???

Has anyone talked with the breed registries?

OEF is trying a last ditch attempt to have themselves survive by telling some of the provincial organizations that they will "protect their interests"

Discussions are happening right now at the Royal at the committee level regarding UNCART and it's 2008 implementation (got that from the person that you email UNCART questions to at EC).

Memberships should be interesting as I participate in long distance, H/J, breeds, driving and was considering the odd dressage show or 2 for the coming season - argh!!!

~Freedom~
Nov. 7, 2007, 09:00 PM
.

Regarding UELN - I have horses that are breed registered (and some with multiple registries), who is the designated UELN assignee??? The first one that registered the animal, or EC???

Has anyone talked with the breed registries?



It is my understanding this is up to the individual registries. Some may already have their UELN if they are registered outside of Canada. The horses that are either unregistered or are from Canadian registries, well don't go holding your breath.

CSHA said they were doing it 6 years ago and would take about 5 years to get it completed. LOL

Ibex
Nov. 27, 2007, 11:48 AM
New rules are up on DC: http://www.dressagecanada.org/dcp.asp?pageid=40 (http://www.dressagecanada.org/dcp.asp?pageid=40)

1. Gold & Silver (provincial & national) CAN run at the same time for dressage (most disciplines can't), BUT a Silver competition can only be 2 days.

2. Bronze (primary/schooling) shows have to pay to use tests (or maybe they always did?), and can only be a day long.

3. You have to buy memberships at Bronze/Silver levels, wheras you only needed your provincial membership before.

4. Passport rules stay the same for this year.

NOT impressed.... :mad:

- there are some great 2-day schooling shows around
- PARC (Silver) shows are usually 3 days
- Have to buy EC memberships no matter what level we're showing
- schooling shows are going to be more expensive

Hony
Nov. 27, 2007, 12:02 PM
New rules are up on DC:
- Have to buy EC memberships no matter what level we're showing
- schooling shows are going to be more expensive

I guess if you're going to use EC tests then you have to pay membership fees to pay for that service.
Perhaps you could make your own tests for schooling shows and do not run as an EC sanctioned show.
As far as schooling shows go, I would be inclined to set up a series, print off some basic tests that I made up on my computer, or make them available on my website or facebook, or myspace or whatever, charge minimal fees and have a show. You could technically hire people with experience rather than accredited judges and have a true schooling show.

CatOnLap
Nov. 27, 2007, 12:16 PM
I
would be inclined to set up a series, print off some basic tests that I made up on my computer, or make them available on my website or facebook

For schooling thats great. Just copy the old Cadora tests from the 1990's and change one movement to avoid the copyrights. As for the rest, the EC continues its great cash grab. And for what?

Vesper Sparrow
Nov. 27, 2007, 12:25 PM
Sorry, but somebody had to say it:

They've obviously put the UNCART before the HORSE...

(Moan, groan...)

Ibex
Nov. 27, 2007, 01:09 PM
Sorry, but somebody had to say it:

They've obviously put the UNCART before the HORSE...

(Moan, groan...)


[groan] :no:

:lol:

neVar
Nov. 27, 2007, 03:20 PM
schooling shows were always required (and provincial level shows) to pay a test levy to Equine canada.

They have also answered our request and we can now run a bronze and silver show at the sametime.. (two fees just as before). as per an email i recieved via our provincial office and equine canada.

North Dakota
Nov. 27, 2007, 05:17 PM
well this stinks, i'm happy with the way it was before UNCART, passports seemed to work!

I'm a Canadian, but i haven't competed in Canada since '06, i have all my US memberships, and so does my horse, i'll be back home showing for the summer, can i just use my US stuff and avoid all this UNCART stuff?

uh oh, wait a sec, i just thought of it, what does this do for FEI passports, i know i'm supposed to have my EC membership, so does this mean i have to get the gold or silver i'm assuming? Does my horse have to be with the UNCART thing to have a FEI passport?

(my citizenship is Canadian btw)

i'm just one very confused event rider!

HXF
Nov. 27, 2007, 07:34 PM
Question - if you are going to show FEI 4, 5, 6 year old or FEI Pony or Junior et al - do you have to be a Platinum member?

This is starting to sound like credit cards...can we get Air Miles??


**** Never mind, I looked at little closer, you only have to be a Gold member.