NEWS FLASH!!!! Parelli-istas RIDE their horses!!!

[jeano]

!

[Kimberlee]

:):):):):):)

That was a good laugh, thank you.

On the other hand, I have known some "insecure" riders who seem to put great faith in Parelli to help them with their horse issues. Not sure how a method to help the horse really helps the rider. But, hey it is their time and their money, who am I to say different.

Have to say I am impressed that she actually went with you. The ones I know (who have been saying forever that they want to go out on the trails) have yet to take that step.

[Bluey]

That was very funny.:lol:

I would say that there have been those people all along, since we had them some 50 years ago in our riding school, before PP was even born.

I remember a lady with a well bred black arabian stallion, that had to ride when no one else was, or her stallion would try to mount, with her on him, whatever, mare or gelding, that was in the indoor ring.:eek:

She also rode the otherwise very calm and easy going fellow for ten minutes at most and at times was brave enough to go out with us on a trail ride, all the way to the edge of the first street, maybe 200', then excused herself and rode quickly back to the riding school.:winkgrin:

We need to find a more descriptive name than parellites for those people. Any suggestions?:D

[jeano]

well, I actually AM encouraged by the little ride. And over the weekend neighbor told me she'd asserted herself with the mare and made her work in the arena, instead of caving and letting the mare have her way like she usually does. I have gently encouraged her to consider riding the horse as a productive way of helping the horse be more reliable under saddle...

I came up with parelli-istas thinking about Peron-istas--something about a vaguely Latin dictator with a slew of trophy wives made me think that could work.

[LMH]

Was the point of this point just to make fun of someone else?:confused:

[Aggie4Bar]

There's a local "savvy" group here that does ride. They actually do quite well, and none of them are stuck at L1. A couple L4s in the group actually. However, none are strict Parelli conformists and all have extensive horse experience, which is where the difference lies. They're Parelli tool users versus followers, also utilizing tools from many other trainers and disciplines. So anyway, while rare, this type of Parelli user does exist.

[perpetual_novice]

Although they may be annoying, the non riding Parellistas are no quite so troublesome to board along side with as the ones who do ride. These seemingless fearless individuals appear to have checked all common sense at the door after they consumed the kool-aid.

It's over three years since I had the expereince and I still shudder. Nothing like watching a Parelli rider "share" the arena by galloping around the ring, with the horse bareback and in a rope halter (and the rider without a helmet, I might add) while two 12 year old kids were having a semi private lesson.

Fortunately, the BO, something of a Parelli afficianda, actually intervened herself. Even she recognized the safety issues. The dirty looks that ensued... good grief!

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

No - it was to show that there is hope.

And also to give us a good laugh.

[ddashaq]

Thanks for the giggle!

I do have to say, however, that the Parelli-istas at my barn ride a lot. All of them were horse owners/riders long before joining the Parelli parade, so I think that makes a BIG difference. In fact, one of them came off last week and immediately (after a quick inventory that all parts were still attached!) got back on. They aren't scarey to share the arena with either, they do their tackless/bridleless stuff when they are alone. Like I said, though, they rode long before drinking the kool-aid and therefore have all the safety common sense of the (educated) average horse person. I was just going to say "average horse person", but I know lots of those that are WAY scarier than any Parelli-istas I know!:lol:

[LMH]

No - it was to show that there is hope.

And also to give us a good laugh.

At someone else's expense on a topic that is just flat old and tired.

Beware the Karma you put in this world.

[jeano]

oh my. Mustnt ruffle anyone's feathers. Thanks Geek! And yes, I do hope to have someone next door to ride with, even if she's full of koolaid, because she's a nice lady who deserves to feel safe with her horse.

I wish sometimes that she would ride a lot of different horses and have some lessons to improve her confidence. But what I glean from postings here and elsewhere, as well as from observing the folks next door, is that a lot of people who are attracted to parelli and the other NH clinician's idea of horsemanship is to have the mystical bond with the King of the Wild Stallions...and it aint happening.

Me myself, I just hack around, dont compete, weigh too much and dont have cubic dollars invested in my horses, my tack, or anything else pertaining to my critters. I have always been fair game on COTH ("You have no business owning a horse!") or in the real world for people to make fun of me and my approach to horsemanship. (If it works and is nearly free, I 'm for it.)

I wouldve thought the title of the thread alone wouldve kept anyone who was tired, grumpy, and apt to get offended from even bothering to read this thread!

[Aggie4Bar]

But what I glean from postings here and elsewhere, as well as from observing the folks next door, is that a lot of people who are attracted to parelli and the other NH clinician's idea of horsemanship is to have the mystical bond with the King of the Wild Stallions...and it aint happening. Bingo!

And when those of us who understand the tools encounter some of the "dreamers", it can generate quite the WTF!? moment. My story here: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showpost.php?p=2383659&postcount=75 :D

[jeano]

Right, that farting butterfly moment when the Black becomes Your Horse Forever, or until the next person with horse treats comes along.

My neighbor understands that her (non Parelli) trainer has her mare's respect, and is beginning to understand WHY and is finally starting to ACT LIKE HER TRAINER acts with the horse (see my comment about her asserting herself and making the mare do a little work in the arena.) Talk about an aha moment. Again, what is fascinating is HOW LONG that took. Not to mention the mind set that seems to go with the kool aid--that only PP or CA or JL or whoever's methods can fix the horse, while simultaneously holding the thought that "I really should get the trainer out her to work with the horse, since she always pays attention to him and LOVES him and does what he asks." Whereas, she NEVER does what PP and the rest say about MAKING the horse mind.

Speaking of farting butterflies, it breaks my heart that I am not going to be able to go to the GA national fair in October while the Gypsy vanners are going to be showing (The DH is available either for the Saddlebreds or the Pasos earlier in the fair.)

Might as well turn this into a serious trainwreck while i'm at it!

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Yes, I understand that majical connection. And I do have it - which has taken literally years. And it was an issue of trust. But that doesn't mean I am not corrected by my trainer for not remembering that every step we train our horses, whether it be on the ground or not, and sometimes I just go on "cruise control."

That being said, everything my trainer has said to me, and in all the readings I have done (Podhasky, Olivera, Zetl, Nock, Swift, Wanless etc), nothing has struck me as anything that would abuse that trust, only what would strengthen it. So these teachings are very consistent.

It seems to me that so much of Parelli, the way it is done by members of the Savvy club, never asks that question. I don't need to learn how to ask my horse to step up and put his front legs on a huge beach ball. I do need him to understand self carriage, and there are many ways I can reiterate that in my training, in a non threatening, clear, concise, and safe way.

I don't worry about my kharma in that regard. Often I "master" what I am attempting on the ground before I get it in the saddle, but everything feeds back into itself and reinforces. And not waving a carrot stick or playing games, but learning how to longe appropriately so that it makes both my horse and myself better aware of our bodies, and moving better, learning in hand and doing the same, learning long lining and doing the same, and then under saddle.

It's not that there's nothing Parelli has to offer. It's just that so many have come before him and said it better.

However, if I only had a sticker book...and every time I had a good ride, my trainer would stop and put in a sticker...I'd want mine all glow in the dark racing stallions and some puffy Thelwell ponies.

[SouthwestRerider]

A good question. Parelli-ites, followers, kool-ade drinkers., all so awkward and long. How about one follower is a Parellus, two or more (and they do run in herds) Parelli, as in "the Parelli" ,as opposed to "the Parellis" referring to Linda and what-zis-name (can't remember). Not sure if that is any clearer, but we do need something convenient, and the numbers of Parelli do not seem to be shrinking yet. Maybe it shouldn't be capitalized? The parelli?

[Aggie4Bar]

It seems to me that so much of Parelli, the way it is done by members of the Savvy club, never asks that question. I don't need to learn how to ask my horse to step up and put his front legs on a huge beach ball. I do need him to understand self carriage, and there are many ways I can reiterate that in my training, in a non threatening, clear, concise, and safe way. For all intents and purposes, PNH is a different discipline. Their upper level is riding around without tack and performing a bunch of tricks. Dressage upper level consists of something different.

The NH promoted by some of the older guys - who visited the scene looooooooong before Parelli, Roberts, Pony Boy, etc. - was about basic horsemanship and problem solving. It overlaps to a huge degree with the horsemanship encountered in classical dressage. Think whip training, basic longeing, etc. Same idea, different set of tools. I don't like seeing NH associated with PNH because NH (historically) dealt with a foundation onto which training was added, not an entire discipline until itself.

[jeano]

I got a nice "sticker" from the heese this afternoon, when I pulled into view in the truck after a trip to town : they both bucked ( and no doubt farted, but I was too far away to hear) and raced each other to the driveway side of the pasture to say hello. It wasnt anywhere close to feeding time, they were just feeling sociable.

And I can still remember the first time Sadie whinnied to me, months and months ago, and it was very clearly an invitation to ride, which I took her up on. I dont ride my nags very well, but I spend time with them riding, get them out of the field and exploring new places, and they seem to appreciate it.

It is about trust more than any other single thing. The gelding wouldnt cross or go into water for his previous owner, who waved more at his poor little head than a carrot stick, I'm thinking. He recently struggled with taking that first big scary step into the horse-eating-alligator-infested creek, which is about 2 inches deep and 2 feet wide. He did it the first time because I finally went in myself and showed him it was safe, but now he will walk in because I have proven to him that I wont let him get et by alligators. I dont think this lesson would have been better learned by a tarp on the ground in the arena with the stick and the games etc. I just dont.

Sadie, on the other hand, has too LITTLE fear of water and wet places, and terrible judgement about soft boggy ground. SHE has to trust me when I tell her, no, not such a good idea, sweetie. It keeps getting better, even though I am not Savvy. (And not, being a terrible cheapskate, spending 20 some bucks a month to post on a bulletin board!)

[LMH]

Aggie-your info on upper level Parelli is just flat incorrect...it is not the ultimate goal to ride around tackless...part of what they do teach is how to do that, and there is a reason for it, but it is NOT 'upper level Parelli'-

I have no problem with people feeling better about themselves by criticizing the program and those involved...really please come to my farm anytime and watch my fat middle aged arse swing a carrot stick and never ride.

Just don't be shocked when you find that isn't what happens.:)


That said, if you are going to criticize the PROGRAM of PNH, please do so accurately as opposed to sounding like a bunch of middle aged women that are perhaps ignored by their SO's for good reason (said with all the charm a southern belle can muster:)).

Criticize the obscene prices.
Criticize the hyper marketing.
Criticize the environment that creates cult like thinking.
Or whatever else you choose that is fair and correct.

AND if you are going to criticize what they teach please at least be self informed enough to know the reasoning behind it.

I still stand by my position-that was confirmed AGAIN today-that the program done well works wonders...creates self confident mentally healthy calm horses that are in a great position to continue careers in the more refined disciplines that we all enjoy.

[mp]

I dont think this lesson would have been better learned by a tarp on the ground in the arena with the stick and the games etc. I just dont.

Getting a horse to cross a tarp is another way to teach him to trust you. So that when you get to the creek or the trailer or whatever, he'll trust you enough to go ahead and do the scary thing. Sometimes it's just easier to start with something you know a horse wil be afraid of, but NOT something he's already refused to do.

It's a good exercise, as long as you don't treat it as an end to itself. Then it becomes rather stupid.

Beware the Karma you put in this world.

Beware of getting your breeches up your butt for no reason, too.

[LMH]

I only where breeches when showing so not a HUGE problem...now having a thong gone wrong-that is a concern.;)

[kellyb]

That was a fun read :lol:

Mind you, boarder and the pony "must" have neighbor and her mare escort him from his pen to arena, because despite 2 solid years of carrot stick waving he wont lead anywhere otherwise.

:lol:

I used to board at a barn where several folks were into Parelli. It was pretty annoying. They'd all be in the arena tying up the rail, shooing their horses with the carrot stick into sidepassing or something like that, I don't know. People say it brings you closer to your horse, well no crap. Too many folks just hop on and ride. If you actually spend time on the ground with your horse, Parelli or not, your bond grows. I've found the horses I taught showmanship to are obviously better listeners/MUCH more respectful of me on the ground. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out :lol:

[JB]

But that doesn't mean I am not corrected by my trainer for not remembering that every step we train our horses, whether it be on the ground or not, and sometimes I just go on "cruise control."
All disciplines should adhere to this, regardless of training methodology. And all of us at some point in time have gone on cruise control, with most of us living to regret it ;)

It seems to me that so much of Parelli, the way it is done by members of the Savvy club, never asks that question.
What question is that? How do you know who is and who isn't a member of the SC? Not all PNH'ers are members.

I don't need to learn how to ask my horse to step up and put his front legs on a huge beach ball.
Once again, for the umpteenth time, in regards to this and loading into the trailer while you are sitting on top, and jumping picnic tables (which actually does have real-life rewards for Eventers ;) and whatnot, it IS NOT, I repeat IS NOT about putting legs on a log or beach ball (now THAT I would have to see) or anything else. It is about being able to place the legs where you want them, when you want them, and how you want them - isn't that quite useful in dressage and any other riding?

I do need him to understand self carriage, and there are many ways I can reiterate that in my training, in a non threatening, clear, concise, and safe way.
If this is implying that PNY is threatening, unclear, muddy, and unsafe, then you really don't know a thing about the program at all :no:

And not waving a carrot stick or playing games, but learning how to longe appropriately so that it makes both my horse and myself better aware of our bodies, and moving better, learning in hand and doing the same, learning long lining and doing the same, and then under saddle.
Wow, you just described PNH! How about that! You just choose a lunge whip and probably a lunge caveson and side reins. How interesting, a different choice of equipment to accomplish the same thing.

It's not that there's nothing Parelli has to offer. It's just that so many have come before him and said it better.
That is indeed your opinion that is not shared by all.

[Jaegermonster]

I have a good friend who I ride with often who is ALLL about the Parelli thing. She is probably in her 50's, got a horse as an adult, then realized she had no idea what to do with it. She is exactly the person that Parelli is marketed towards (or takes advantage of, but that has been done to death). Actually I have a couple friends that are like that, but I'm speaking of one in particular.
Anyway, she takes what she gets from Parelli and builds on it. We trail ride, she crosses creeks and so on and on. Parelli gives her tools to use and helps her have confidence that she can handle the horse.
Now she is a little frou frou sometimes (won't trailer if it's warm AT ALL, he has to have the whole trailer to himself, really babies him a lot), but that's her business as long as it doesn't affect me.
I know some other people that do Parelli that are the annoying type that think it's the be all and end all, when they themselves are afraid to ride out of a round pen.
Parelli is just like everything else, you can sift through it and get what's useful. For me, it's a little basic and pedantic. But if it helps someone get over their fear or work through their issues so that they can have a useful relationship with their horse, I'm ok with that. The Kool-aid drinker ones are another story (the ones who never ride and so on) but most of the people I hang out with are pretty reasonable.
Now all of that said, I saw one of their "sessions" once at an Equine Affaire type thing and was not impressed. Not impressed with John Lyons either.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

All I can say is, of the people I know in my area who have focused solely on Parelli...that my horse is far better physically, and mentally than he has been in the past. And the same cannot be said of their horses, in terms of muscular development, fitness, physical ability, mental understanding, relaxation, and balance. And goodness knows, the same can be said of me relative to those people I know who practice Parelli. Perhaps they are not the norm. But from what I have gathered on this board, they do seem typical of "the breed."

[mp]

I only where breeches when showing so not a HUGE problem...now having a thong gone wrong-that is a concern.;)

You're a Parellisite ... and you show? Impossible! :lol:

I'm afraid you're not going to win the argument re: Parelli, so you may as well save your keystrokes. I'm sure there are people who get carried away with the games and such. But based on the people I've been around, I haven't seen that it does much harm. It's when people focus on achieving a level as an end in itself, instead of teaching the horse (and human) something useful, that things start to go awry. But I've seen that in lots of equine disciplines, haven't you? ;)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Absolutely...because this happens frequently in dressage, at least in my region!

[King's Ransom]

Gee, I feel really bad for the lady who got sooo nervous on such a short ride outside ... I feel her pain! I never studied Parelli, and I bravely (and gamely) jumped 1,000+ fences with King ... inside the arena. When I brought him home, I was scared sh*!less to ride outside...on my then-25-year-old saint of a horse who would have rather died than have me fall off his back (how embarrassing for him if he could not manage to keep me balanced on his back!). It's a terrible feeling to want to do something so badly, and yet be scared to death to try.

Quin came over several times to just "be here" when I finally gathered the courage to ride with my best friend, packer schoolmaster of a horse -- in the great OUTDOORS. A couple of circles around and I was done. Why? Because the adrenalin and stress of holding my breath for 500 yards wore me out!!!

I hope she didn't go running around telling everyone what a sissy fraidy cat idiot I was ... of course, I have now just done it to myself ... :lol:

There is hope. If someone will be patient with her. Just the other day I posted about running out through open fields on my BIG horse, Elijah, and having the time of my life. Just a year ago, there was absolutely NO WAY I could have done that -- oh, I was capable physically, but totally psyched out by the great OUTDOORS. Yes, I still have visions of Elijah throwing a huge buck and running off hell-bent for leather with me dragging along by one foot stuck in the stirrup ... but somehow my vision of us having fun sailing across the fields is stronger.

Maybe it's funny to laugh at middle-aged women who are scared to death to do what they dream ... but those of you who suppress your giggles and offer assistance and encouragement (like Quin) are saints in your own right. Thanks!

[LMH]

Parellisite---that name doesn't suit me.

I prefer something more like Parellista...sounds more...girly:lol:

Yes my darling, I swing a darn good carrot stick AND show...and I ride...occasionally bareback and sometimes with a bit and sometimes without...and I love WAZ and others AND I love PNH...and...i really am not fat but i guess I must admit to middle aged these days...and I didn't buy my first horse in my 50's.

Goodness I am just blowing the stereotype all to hell.

I guess I just can't stick to one flavor of Koolaid.:winkgrin:

DG-so I guess you are now saying some Parellistas go wacky and some Dressage Divas can go wacky...so some people get it and some people don't in all areas of riding.

[JB]

I'd bet there are even Hunter Princesses who get all whacked out too then huh!

There are freaks in all disciplines. Where one lives is likely to mean you have more PNH freaks or more Dressage freaks or more Cowboy freaks. That does not mean they are all like that. To continue to put the freak label on any one discipline simply because that's what you normally see in your area, despite many claims and personal experiences to the contrary, is closing ones mind to the fact that maybe, just maybe, something that you don't like does work for others.

LMH, I'm tired of cherry koolaid, please pass the grape.

[Aggie4Bar]

I guess I just can't stick to one flavor of Koolaid.:winkgrin:Then I fail to see why you'd be so offended by someone saying that Parelli's program contains useful tools but that the PNH program as promoted by Parelli (thou shalt have no other trainer, thou shalt not question the methods) is a discipline unto itself.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

While there can certainly be several people who do not follow the "highest' or most "classical" principles of any discipline - and we can find them everywhere, regardless of discipline - my feelings about Parelli can be summarized as follows:

(1) He did not invent groundwork, nor is his approach the clearest or the best, whether you practice dressage, HJ, or what is euphamistically termed NH. The games obscure the reasoning behind the acts.
(2) When I long line, or I do ground work, or I free lunge, I don't need to buy expensive equipment certified by any one person. The equipment may be expensive, depending upon the quality, but I can do in hand with a long flexible stick if I choose to do so. I may prefer a telescoping lunge whip, but I don't have to have one.
(3) There is no one necessarily correct way to approach training, except that you should be safe, you should be clear, you should be consistent, and you should tailor your training appropriately for the horse. It should be dynamic, and not one size fits all. While I may watch Zetl videos, that does not preclude the assistance (and need for!) knowledgable eyes on the ground who can instruct me.

When people speak of Parelli on this board, for the most part, they are not talking about people who may use some of his approaches in their training, adapted for the needs. They speak of people who mindlessly latch on to a cult like figure who will have them riding their magical Gypsy Vanner stallion off into the sunset. Only once they've reached Level Four, of course.

[ddashaq]

Aggie4Bar, your story was freaking hilarious!!! :lol::lol:

[mp]

Parellisite---that name doesn't suit me.


How about Parellicita? It has a nice Spanish/senorita lilt to it. :)

I got my first horse when I was 43. I had no inkling of how to get along with equines for at least the first 5 years I was around them. I never tried Parelli -- but I did work with a very good horseman who helped me figure out that *I* had to change in order to make things better. The safest place to start -- and the easiest place for me to read what was going on with the horse -- was by doing groundwork. From there, I got more comfortable in the saddle and things have been rolling along ever since.

It's all just about figuring out how to get the horse to do what you want with the least amount of fuss. Choose the way that suits you best and don't lose sight of that goal.

[LMH]

While there can certainly be several people who do not follow the "highest' or most "classical" principles of any discipline - and we can find them everywhere, regardless of discipline -



my feelings about Parelli can be summarized as follows:

(1) He did not invent groundwork, nor is his approach the clearest or the best, whether you practice dressage, HJ, or what is euphamistically termed NH. The games obscure the reasoning behind the acts.

[He never says he did invent groundwork. Parelli rarely speaks without giving credit to Troy Henry, among others. His approach may not be the clearest or best for YOU and how YOU learn...but indeed it is for *me* and many others.

Please explain how the games obscure the reasoning behind the acts...this makes no sense to me and actually I find the opposite to be true so what this tells me is that you do not have a clear understanding of Parelli]

(2) When I long line, or I do ground work, or I free lunge, I don't need to buy expensive equipment certified by any one person. The equipment may [I]be expensive, depending upon the quality, but I can do in hand with a long flexible stick if I choose to do so. I may prefer a telescoping lunge whip, but I don't have to have one.

[Parelli does not require his equipment either but having used it and other equipment I have found his equipment are tools that provide effective communication. He actually using something like a telescoping lunge-it can be purchased from Cabela's. He explains in more than one tape/tv show WHY he has the carrot stick for what it is used for...again if you don't know WHY this is, you are demonstrating once again you do not have an understanding of Parelli.]

(3) There is no one necessarily correct way to approach training, except that you should be safe, you should be clear, you should be consistent, and you should tailor your training appropriately for the horse. It should be dynamic, and not one size fits all. While I may watch Zetl videos, that does not preclude the assistance (and need for!) knowledgable eyes on the ground who can instruct me.

[What you have dsecribed IS the entire core of the Parelli program-it is not one path but has different approaches for different horses-how you handle a nervous horse, within the Parelli program is COMPLETELY different from how you handle a confident horse...again you dispute shows you do not have a clear understanding of Parelli. He emphasizes safe, clear and consistent communication that is tailored for the needs of that horse.]

When people speak of Parelli on this board, for the most part, they are not talking about people who may use some of his approaches in their training, adapted for the needs. They speak of people who mindlessly latch on to a cult like figure who will have them riding their magical Gypsy Vanner stallion off into the sunset. Only once they've reached Level Four, of course.

[Actually it was somewhere in mid level two that my TB and I did that. So again...lack of understanding]




You and others would better spend your time actually learning about something (rather than watching those attempting it poorly) before you criticize it. By blindly making accusations without foundation you show have lack of knowledge and simply a desire to criticize something with which you are not familiar.

If you can find a specific example that actually IS what Parelli teaches that you would like to discuss I am happy to...but blind criticisms without foundation are simply a waste of bandwidth.

[LMH]

Yes...Parellicita works fine-thank you!:)

[zagafi]

People, people, people. The correct term is "Parellibots".

[LMH]

People, people, people. The correct term is "Parellibots".

I rest easy and certain you are a much kinder and lovelier person 'in person' ;)

Truly if people want to get in a battle of childish name calling I am very sure I can manage to have this and any Parelli thread closed in less than 3 posts.:winkgrin:

[zagafi]

Oh, for heaven's sake, lighten up! Yeesh. I'm sooo terribly sorry my having a bit of fun offends your tender sensibilities.

[Pat]

Ok, I happen to like Parellibots. far superior to other ideas in this thread. ;)

Oh, dear, lighten up Parelli/NH/pooping butterfly people!!!! If it works for you and you arent shovving it down someone elses throat/getting in someone elses way, fine. You've still got a koolaid mustache, but if it suits you, then why worry about what other people think?

Shoot, DQ's find it "annoying" to ride around jumps at a multi discipline barn. But riding/working/just plain walking around the NH ding-dongs? URGH. Been there, done that, ya'll can keeep it.

Uh, um, longreining is dunno, miles and miles from lunging/round penning. Try it and comeon back, ok? ANd Ive always gotten the impression that it's my way or the highway with the Parellis, or is it now OK just to go to the farm and flea and grab any ole buggy whip and any old rope halter?

These amuseing little stories always make me smile.... Smile because I'm so happy I DONT BOARD my horses, and that I DONT HAVE very close horse neighbors. And the closest horse neighbors are a H/J trainer (and friend) and a USDF Bronze Medal DQ. NO magikal stuff over there last I checked.

[Amwrider]

While there can certainly be several people who do not follow the "highest' or most "classical" principles of any discipline - and we can find them everywhere, regardless of discipline - my feelings about Parelli can be summarized as follows:

(1) He did not invent groundwork, nor is his approach the clearest or the best, whether you practice dressage, HJ, or what is euphamistically termed NH. The games obscure the reasoning behind the acts.
(2) When I long line, or I do ground work, or I free lunge, I don't need to buy expensive equipment certified by any one person. The equipment may be expensive, depending upon the quality, but I can do in hand with a long flexible stick if I choose to do so. I may prefer a telescoping lunge whip, but I don't have to have one.
(3) There is no one necessarily correct way to approach training, except that you should be safe, you should be clear, you should be consistent, and you should tailor your training appropriately for the horse. It should be dynamic, and not one size fits all. While I may watch Zetl videos, that does not preclude the assistance (and need for!) knowledgable eyes on the ground who can instruct me.

When people speak of Parelli on this board, for the most part, they are not talking about people who may use some of his approaches in their training, adapted for the needs. They speak of people who mindlessly latch on to a cult like figure who will have them riding their magical Gypsy Vanner stallion off into the sunset. Only once they've reached Level Four, of course.


Need the clapping hand icon. Wonderfully stated.

Parellibots? How about Parelli-borg (Star Trek fans will get it - no I am not a ST geek, but a former BF was).

"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"

[JB]

my feelings about Parelli can be summarized as follows:

(1) He did not invent groundwork, nor is his approach the clearest or the best, whether you practice dressage, HJ, or what is euphamistically termed NH. The games obscure the reasoning behind the acts.
He never claimed to invent groundwork, so that statement is not your "feeling". As for his approash, that again is your opinion, already very well known on these threads, and one shared and not shared by many others. For many people, the "games" GIVE meaning to the actions. It is also a sad fact that some people just don't get that and therefore really piss their horses off. But again, that is found in any discipline, and people who are "stuck" at Level 1 with grumpier and grumpier horses, don't seem to have much common sense and would be flailing around in any discipline/training program

(2) When I long line, or I do ground work, or I free lunge, I don't need to buy expensive equipment certified by any one person. The equipment may be expensive, depending upon the quality, but I can do in hand with a long flexible stick if I choose to do so. I may prefer a telescoping lunge whip, but I don't have to have one.
Guess what, neither do you have to buy expensive equipment certified by Pat Parelli to work on PNH! I know quite a few folks who took a fiberglass post, glued a golf club handle on one end, a loop of leather on the other, and put their homemade string on the end of that. How about that! Many even make their own halters, including me - works pretty darnwell. For $10/100' of rope from Lowes I can make 3 halters :eek: There are those who chose to have the PNH name stamped on their equipment - so what? Their money, their choice, nobody forced them. Guess what, Dennis Reis sells his own equipment. John Lyons and Anderson and Cox and Roberts sell theirs too. So does Anky and Tad Coffin and many others - nobody forces anyone to buy $4k saddles, but guess what, some people want to.

(3) There is no one necessarily correct way to approach training, except that you should be safe, you should be clear, you should be consistent, and you should tailor your training appropriately for the horse. It should be dynamic, and not one size fits all. While I may watch Zetl videos, that does not preclude the assistance (and need for!) knowledgable eyes on the ground who can instruct me.
You're right, there isn't one clear path, and if you knew anything about the PNH program, you would know there are many ways to approach any given horse. And if you knew the program, you would know that they HIGHLY advise getting help either at clinics, lessons, or whatever. And of COURSE they are going to promote their own program as the source of those things. You wouldn't think Apple would recommend you going to IBM for help, would you? ;)

When people speak of Parelli on this board, for the most part, they are not talking about people who may use some of his approaches in their training, adapted for the needs. They speak of people who mindlessly latch on to a cult like figure who will have them riding their magical Gypsy Vanner stallion off into the sunset. Only once they've reached Level Four, of course.
Nobody has debated the fact that there are Parelli Freaks in all corners of the world. The problem is that those who speak ill of those folks lump ALL PNHers into the same mold and proclaim the program assinine

but I did work with a very good horseman who helped me figure out that *I* had to change in order to make things better. The safest place to start -- and the easiest place for me to read what was going on with the horse -- was by doing groundwork. From there, I got more comfortable in the saddle and things have been rolling along ever since.

It's all just about figuring out how to get the horse to do what you want with the least amount of fuss. Choose the way that suits you best and don't lose sight of that goal.
:yes::yes::yes:

Oh, dear, lighten up Parelli/NH/pooping butterfly people!!!! If it works for you and you arent shovving it down someone elses throat/getting in someone elses way, fine. You've still got a koolaid mustache, but if it suits you, then why worry about what other people think?
The problem Pat is that nearly everyone who bashes PNH does so out of ignorance of the program, and that is what "we" have a problem with. I have stated this a gazillion times on these threads, and LMH tried again on this one - nobody cares if you don't like PNH or dressage or hunters or WP, but if you're going to give reasons why, they'd better be accurate reasons, not the mis-information that runs rampant on these threads. No, it's certainly not a program for everyone, but no single thing in life is for everyone either. It's the continued mis-information liberally plastered over forums and threads that turns some people off without having even tried it. Trust me, if you saw a thread on something you liked that was loaded with inaccuracies, you'd say something too.

Uh, um, longreining is dunno, miles and miles from lunging/round penning. Try it and comeon back, ok?
Hmmm, what was the point of this? Are you aware that PNH does longreining too?

ANd Ive always gotten the impression that it's my way or the highway with the Parellis, or is it now OK just to go to the farm and flea and grab any ole buggy whip and any old rope halter?
Do you honestly think that Pat would say "now if you don't like the way that I do this, run over to Clinton Anderson's camp and see how he does it, then come back and we'll work with that" ? As for the equipment, I stated above that you don't HAVE to buy their expensive equipment, there ARE alternatives, either making your own (truly, NOT that difficult, there are websites all over that show you how to make ropes), but ALL these guys will tell you there is a reason you don't just use any ol' cotton leadrop and a fat, comfy leather halter. There is a physical reason for using marine rope for the leads and certain types of rope for the halters and real reasons for using a stiff "stick" with a rope at the end. Can one accomplish the same things with a fat leather halter, a 9' cotton lead rope, and a dressage whip? Depends on the person.

And the closest horse neighbors are a H/J trainer (and friend) and a USDF Bronze Medal DQ. NO magikal stuff over there last I checked.
I'd bet a little 4yo girl watching someone jump their horse over a 5' oxer would think it was pretty majikal.

[LMH]

I have an idea...I will just start weekly threads with the following topics


1. ALL dressage riders are pear shaped middle aged ignored wives that can't ride a WB unless Fritz schools him daily so said neglected wife can lip sinc her way through a training level test.


How about a weekly thread on how ALL hunter jumper types couldn't tack up a horse without a groom if only a saddle and a girth where in front of them...or how about threads on how NO show riders no how to ride at all unless some over ga-ga-ed BNT puppets the horse to prepare it.

That will be a better use of my energy:D

[MySparrow]

Something that saddens me is that one never can have a decent exchange of ideas when the name Parelli is mentioned. Somehow it is a polarizing force. On the Parelli boards I've been to, if you ask a question about a concept you are bashed, lashed and trashed. On this board, if you even mention the name positively you had better be wearing your train-proof Ironman suit.

As a longtime riding instructor, I actually think Parelli has done some good in the world (donning suit). Yes, there are others, many of them, and they all have things to offer, but it was Parelli who really popularized and made accessible the idea of a kinder sort of horsemastership (fastening helmet). I use elements of his Games all the time, to help my students understand the dynamics of communicating with a horse (flame retardent shield at the ready). The games help with this because each step is so very clear and precise and directly related to the horse's response, for good or ill depending on how correctly and precisely the step was taken. (attaching Kevlar plates) Are there other techniques that have the same effect? Sure. Quite a few, in fact.

Having said some good stuff about the Parelli program, I personally know people who latched onto Parelli because they are terrified of their horses. In those people, PNH work hasn't helped because it hasn't addressed the individual's underlying fear. These people tend to derive some curious constructs from the program, spending a lot of energy attaching words to their horse's behavior that can be construed as negative. Afraid. Claustrophobic. Nervous. Anxious. They announce that their horses are being "right-brained" and must be brought back to left brain. No argument there, but somehow they've taken away from their Level 1 pack that this is a passive process. If they just dismount or otherwise stop whatever they're doing, the horse will recover its left brain. I wonder if Pat Parelli kind of encourages this because he knows that a lot of his students are not experienced horsepeople and could too easily get hurt if they don't remove themselves physically from harm's way? It seems to be a common response among the non-horsepeople who become Parelli students. (fire extinguisher at the ready)

I think there are quite a few of us who recognized in Pat Parelli's original program a carefully outlined and codified version of stuff we already had learned. It was an easy step to convert much of what we already were doing to a more clear and consistent approach. But we also are blessed with our own personal knowledge and experience, and the training of others we respect, and so we end up with a kind of lovely melange of working philosophy. I wish we could talk about these good things without getting into a passion play.

This Ironman suit is getting heavy. Going to shuck it and go teach. Thanks for listening!

[HorseLuvr]

Hahaha thanks for the good laugh and great post!!!!:lol::lol:

[msj]

Need the clapping hand icon. Wonderfully stated.

Parellibots? How about Parelli-borg (Star Trek fans will get it - no I am not a ST geek, but a former BF was).

"Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"

OK, I'll admit to being a Trekie and think "Parelli-borg" is perfect! :lol:

I generally don't bother with the Parelli-type threads but must admit this one was funny. :lol: Even funnier are Parelli-borgs that are SO ardently defending him and telling us that we can't judge all Parelli-borgs by what we see a 'handful' of the Kool-aid drinkers do-as that's not all Parelli amounts to and we should go see for ourselves. :sigh: Well Parellli-borgs, I hate to say it, but those of us that have seen the 'poorly done' (and I use that term loosely) Parelli, would most certainly NOT spend 1 red cent to see him in action.:rolleyes: What's that expression- "A fool and his money are soon parted." My Mother never raised me to be a fool. :)

After skim reading any of the Parelli-type threads and having seen one idiot in action, and yes, she was an idiot:rolleyes:, I'd run like hell to get away from anyone and anything Parelli. :rolleyes:

And yes, some of the rolleyes are definitely for a Parelli-borg who loves them! :lol:

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Well, the sad truth is, having a friend who was into Parelli, I have not only read his lower level stuff but watched a video.

And I was aghasted.

Now, when I was 12, I tried to comprehend Podhasky. Didn't work. Now, with a better understanding of the principles and with help from a marvelous trainer, I am grasping the concepts - can't always execute, but I get the idea.

LMH and JB, I think this is a case of Bush lover vs Bush hater. You aren't goingt o convince someone to cross over to what they perceive as the Dark Side of The Force. I've seen some of what Parelli has to offer. And you can have it.

[arena run]

Don't ya'll have better things to do than bash people? Like... oh maybe soak your beet pulp or something? sylvia

[mp]

As a longtime riding instructor, I actually think Parelli has done some good in the world (donning suit). Yes, there are others, many of them, and they all have things to offer, but it was Parelli who really popularized and made accessible the idea of a kinder sort of horsemastership (fastening helmet). I use elements of his Games all the time, to help my students understand the dynamics of communicating with a horse (flame retardent shield at the ready). The games help with this because each step is so very clear and precise and directly related to the horse's response, for good or ill depending on how correctly and precisely the step was taken. (attaching Kevlar plates) Are there other techniques that have the same effect? Sure. Quite a few, in fact.

Good explanation of how Parelli stuff can work well for some folks. Understanding how horses see/experience the world and that it's totally different from how humans see it was my first giant step toward figuring out how to get along with horses.

I personally know people who latched onto Parelli because they are terrified of their horses. In those people, PNH work hasn't helped because it hasn't addressed the individual's underlying fear. These people tend to derive some curious constructs from the program, spending a lot of energy attaching words to their horse's behavior that can be construed as negative. Afraid. Claustrophobic. Nervous. Anxious. They announce that their horses are being "right-brained" and must be brought back to left brain. No argument there, but somehow they've taken away from their Level 1 pack that this is a passive process. If they just dismount or otherwise stop whatever they're doing, the horse will recover its left brain. I wonder if Pat Parelli kind of encourages this because he knows that a lot of his students are not experienced horsepeople and could too easily get hurt if they don't remove themselves physically from harm's way? It seems to be a common response among the non-horsepeople who become Parelli students. (fire extinguisher at the ready)



Another good explanation. They do the exercises but don't understand the underlying ideas and how to use them to accomplish something useful. It's like being able to do addition and subtraction, but not being able to make change for a dollar.

Geek, I'm not a Parelli person, so what you think of the program matters not to me. But your analogy is just ... odd. No one is asking you to "cross over" to anything. And someone playing with their horses with a stick doesn't materially affect your life or any lives across the globe. By any chance, are you pear-shaped and middle-aged? ;)

[MSP]

Gee, I feel really bad for the lady who got sooo nervous on such a short ride outside ... I feel her pain! I never studied Parelli, and I bravely (and gamely) jumped 1,000+ fences with King ... inside the arena. When I brought him home, I was scared sh*!less to ride outside...on my then-25-year-old saint of a horse who would have rather died than have me fall off his back (how embarrassing for him if he could not manage to keep me balanced on his back!). It's a terrible feeling to want to do something so badly, and yet be scared to death to try.

Quin came over several times to just "be here" when I finally gathered the courage to ride with my best friend, packer schoolmaster of a horse -- in the great OUTDOORS. A couple of circles around and I was done. Why? Because the adrenalin and stress of holding my breath for 500 yards wore me out!!!

I hope she didn't go running around telling everyone what a sissy fraidy cat idiot I was ... of course, I have now just done it to myself ... :lol:

There is hope. If someone will be patient with her. Just the other day I posted about running out through open fields on my BIG horse, Elijah, and having the time of my life. Just a year ago, there was absolutely NO WAY I could have done that -- oh, I was capable physically, but totally psyched out by the great OUTDOORS. Yes, I still have visions of Elijah throwing a huge buck and running off hell-bent for leather with me dragging along by one foot stuck in the stirrup ... but somehow my vision of us having fun sailing across the fields is stronger.

Maybe it's funny to laugh at middle-aged women who are scared to death to do what they dream ... but those of you who suppress your giggles and offer assistance and encouragement (like Quin) are saints in your own right. Thanks!

I felt this way about the first post as well. Parelli junk aside I hear a story about a woman who is afraid of horses but really wants to move on and enjoy riding. I can see where a well structure program like Parelli's would be seen as a solution. Although I think ridding lessons is a better solution.

Having ridden since I was a small child and having always ridden in the great outdoors I can imagine it could be a very scary thing to leave the safe confines of an arena.

Sorry, I didn't see any thing funny in this thread.

[LMH]

DG it seems you really are fond of name dropping the classical dudes. I suppose that elevates you in some fashion.

Can I ask what level you are currently schooling and showing? And when showing how you do?

I thought it fair to be aware of your classical background and the level to which you have mastered it.

I mean if we ARE going to make fun of all these sad pnh folks, it seems only fair to know the qualifications of those doing the bashing.:)

[LMH]

msj I can assure you I am far from a fool as well. Seems Parelli lovers and haters now have that in common-neither consider themselves fools. :)

[TBROCKS]

Something that saddens me is that one never can have a decent exchange of ideas when the name Parelli is mentioned. Somehow it is a polarizing force. On the Parelli boards I've been to, if you ask a question about a concept you are bashed, lashed and trashed. On this board, if you even mention the name positively you had better be wearing your train-proof Ironman suit.



Maybe, just maybe...the Parelli's LIKE that polarization. In fact, they foster it with their arrogance.
To me, their attitude is "Pay us your big bucks, then act superior about our training methods to make yourself feel better about it".

[JB]

Having said some good stuff about the Parelli program, I personally know people who latched onto Parelli because they are terrified of their horses. In those people, PNH work hasn't helped because it hasn't addressed the individual's underlying fear.
This is indeed a common issue, and if someone is that terrified of their horse and seeks help soley from video, failure is bound to occur. The exact same thing can be said of any of the other NH program videos, any of the myriad of other "training videos" out there. It's a failure of the people not of the program.

These people tend to derive some curious constructs from the program, spending a lot of energy attaching words to their horse's behavior that can be construed as negative. Afraid. Claustrophobic. Nervous. Anxious. They announce that their horses are being "right-brained" and must be brought back to left brain. No argument there, but somehow they've taken away from their Level 1 pack that this is a passive process. If they just dismount or otherwise stop whatever they're doing, the horse will recover its left brain. I wonder if Pat Parelli kind of encourages this because he knows that a lot of his students are not experienced horsepeople and could too easily get hurt if they don't remove themselves physically from harm's way? It seems to be a common response among the non-horsepeople who become Parelli students. (fire extinguisher at the ready)
The Levels have been (1 and 2) and are being (3) revamped to address the emotional side of the PEOPLE more and more, as well as getting more into what's going on in the horse's head. But by the same toke, for people who think a DVD set will fix their problems by osmosis, it is a sadly dillusional, and again it's the human's problem, not the program. PNH very clearly states that first time practitioners should not be using "difficult" horses. Unfortunately, that often goes unheeded and ends up being a poor reflection on the program when it still boils down to the implemenation.

Even funnier are Parelli-borgs that are SO ardently defending him and telling us that we can't judge all Parelli-borgs by what we see a 'handful' of the Kool-aid drinkers do-as that's not all Parelli amounts to and we should go see for ourselves.
So what about the DQs adamantly defending the sport as a whole whenever there is Dressage Bashing going on because someone saw someone doing Rollkur? No different. The replies are always "you were watching bad implementations of the sport, if you'd go watch Such-and-such types of divisions you'd see how it is to be done well." How is that different?

Well Parellli-borgs, I hate to say it, but those of us that have seen the 'poorly done' (and I use that term loosely) Parelli, would most certainly NOT spend 1 red cent to see him in action.:rolleyes: What's that expression- "A fool and his money are soon parted." My Mother never raised me to be a fool.
See above. If you don't care to try to see what it's like when done properly, that's fine and understandable. But one cannot continue to bash the program when one has only seen the bad and refuses to see the good.

Well, the sad truth is, having a friend who was into Parelli, I have not only read his lower level stuff but watched a video.

And I was aghasted.
Why is that?

LMH and JB, I think this is a case of Bush lover vs Bush hater. You aren't goingt o convince someone to cross over to what they perceive as the Dark Side of The Force. I've seen some of what Parelli has to offer. And you can have it.
Where in the world has anyone tried to bring you over to the PNH side? You can not find a single quote to state as such. All that has ever been done is to try to correct false statements about what the program is and isn't, and every single word of that continues to fall on deaf ears.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I have noticed that when people are secure in what they do, they don't feel the need to proselytize.

I could care less what discipline you do. I do what suits myself. I choose to do what I think makes me a better horseperson, and a better rider, and above all, contributes to the health and development, mental and physical, of my horse. Which, if you bother to go back and read any of the classics, is what they are all about.

I also appreciate this is easier said than done, and nothing you can do by reading alone, that it requires the patience and assistance of people who understand these principles and who can demonstrate them to you and your horse. Which is why it takes so long to be a rider at the Spanish Riding School - I don't think anyone would quibble here as to their level of horsemanship and the ability of their horses.

Frankly, there is nothing in Parelli that I can't get better, elsewhere. That is simply my opinion. But since, knock on wood, both my horse and I are attaining my stated goals, why would I ever want to change course?

If Parelli works for you, fine. Do it. You will notice that when people knock the classical masters, I don't respond. I feel, if they don't get it, I am not in a position to sway them, there are others who can be far more eloquent in this regard than myself.

Have I shown successfully in dressage? Not that I need to prove it to you, but yes. I was a clueless, ignorant rerider, with a green, abused, sensitive OTTB. We have shown through First Level. We have won GMO and state championships. Not bad for someone who didn't even know what dressage was when she started. Do I show now? No. But that is more a matter of time and where I choose to spend my money (and the lack of a trailer!). I wanted very much to go to regionals this year, since it's in my hood, but work deadlines have precluded that.

Argue all you want, you will not convince me. I have seen enough people practicing "Parelli" to know it is nothing with which I want to be involved. So please, just give me up as a lost cause.

[LMH]

Who is trying to convince you to try PNH?:confused:

What I find frustrating and just rude is the way you criticize those that like Parelli...make it sound like EVERYONE is so uneducated in riding that finds a benefit in Parelli, when in fact, while riding and competing at first or even second level, a dressage rider is not NECESSARILY a more advanced rider than those that have completed Level 2 in Parelli.

Sorry but that is the simple truth.

In fact many of the things required in L3 in Parelli would be more advanced than that level of riding. They certainly cover a broader scope of riding-as the program is intended to do.

Of course that assumes that those attempting the tasks (from a Parelli or non-Parelli background) could manage to execute them successfully...and that is the person not the program.

The fact is Parelli is not a replacement for dressage training-it never claims to be that...just like WP does not replace dressage and dressage does not replace hunters.

But you don't get that and never will...it is just bad and that is that.

[LMH]

I have noticed that when people are secure in what they do, they don't feel the need to proselytize.

They also don't feel the need to make fun of others choosing a different path


I do what suits myself. I choose to do what I think makes me a better horseperson, and a better rider, and above all, contributes to the health and development, mental and physical, of my horse.

This is exactly what a PNH person will say they are doing. I bet most horse owners would say they are doing that.




Frankly, there is nothing in Parelli that I can't get better, elsewhere. That is simply my opinion. But since, knock on wood, both my horse and I are attaining my stated goals, why would I ever want to change course?

No one has asked you to change course. The person that loves the Parelli program feels they are getting it good too.

If Parelli works for you, fine. Do it.

thank you...that makes me feel better.

You will notice that when people knock the classical masters, I don't respond. I feel, if they don't get it, I am not in a position to sway them, there are others who can be far more eloquent in this regard than myself.

Who is talking about knocking the classical masters? Am I missing something? I don't knock them never have and probably own most of the books ever written and re-read them often.

Have I shown successfully in dressage? Not that I need to prove it to you, but yes. I was a clueless, ignorant rerider, with a green, abused, sensitive OTTB. We have shown through First Level. We have won GMO and state championships. Not bad for someone who didn't even know what dressage was when she started. Do I show now? No. But that is more a matter of time and where I choose to spend my money (and the lack of a trailer!). I wanted very much to go to regionals this year, since it's in my hood, but work deadlines have precluded that.

So basically you are doing the best you can with the information and assistance you have available...just like the poor fat middle aged Parelli disciple who is just trying to get the courage to ride again. Considering your background with your horse I think you would be more sensitive to those looking for answers even if it isn't the same solution you have found.

Argue all you want, you will not convince me. I have seen enough people practicing "Parelli" to know it is nothing with which I want to be involved. So please, just give me up as a lost cause.

It has never been my cause to convince *you* of its value to *you*---again...why do you feel the need to make broad generalizations criticizing something just because it has no use to you? That has been my only problem with this and all Parelli threads.



.

[Amwrider]

. On the Parelli boards I've been to, if you ask a question about a concept you are bashed, lashed and trashed.


I am not sure I understand. You go on Parelli boards and ask questions about Parelli concepts and are bashed? Or do you ask about other concepts and are bashed?

[Pat]

Ok, then, here we go....

I don't frequent BB's for other disciplines. WHY? Because they dont do what I do, and there fore are "coming from different places." I don't care to bash heads with people. Its stupid.

But yeah, I have very little tolerance for the fools who are too terrified to walk 300ft to the barn on thier own. And I sure wouldn't want to go on a trail ride with one either. Heaven forbid *I* have a problem/get hurt. Will they be able to go fetch help, or would they pee thier pants?


If you (or your neighbor) is a fat middle aged scaredy cat, they shouldn't own thier own horse. Nervous/uneducated/scared humans + (most) equines = Emergency Room. And it's not always the schmuck who's over thier head that gets hurt either. I quite nearly got my ankle broke a week back because of an inexperienced handler.

If you are a fat middle aged scaredy cat, then go take lessons from a reputable instructor in your discipline of your choice until you are no longer afraid of a horse's shadow. There is no replacement for one on one instruction, on the ground or in the tack. Watching videos and going to the odd clinic isn't going to suddenly make you a whiz kid and you get zero feedback.

I am fat, but not middle aged. I like to consider myself a skillful horseman. BUT I am not stupid enough to ride a difficult or very green horse alone. I also will not handle horses that I don't know well or are difficult alone.

Sweeties, I have groomed "outside my discipline" and managed a few barns , including a multidiscipline barn. I've been around a little. Ive already had to deal with the foolishness, and I've watched the NH types in action. Seen enough, don't like koolaid. Don't ASSume that because I don't drink koolaid that I've not been exposed to it.

PP SHOULD be open to other ideas. He isn't a god and shouldn't be thinking he's got all the answers. Maybe CA has better ideas on certain subjects than he does. And it would be no different than a rider who trains with say, Frank Madden to take a clinic with GM (or any other BNT). Frank shouldn't have anything to fear (or hide).

Oh, yeah, somewhere back on page 2 (I think) someone tried to equate loose work to long reining. Uhm, no. I've done plenty of both, apples and oranges.

I've got stuff to do. I'll return eventually.......

[Amwrider]

Yeah. What she said.

[franknbeans]

Ok, then, here we go....

I don't frequent BB's for other disciplines. WHY? Because they dont do what I do, and there fore are "coming from different places." I don't care to bash heads with people. Its stupid.

At least you started by making some sense and being reasonable.....


But yeah, I have very little tolerance for the fools who are too terrified to walk 300ft to the barn on thier own. And I sure wouldn't want to go on a trail ride with one either. Heaven forbid *I* have a problem/get hurt. Will they be able to go fetch help, or would they pee thier pants?

I am sorry you are such an intolerant person......perhaps they would RATHER leave you there...after all, you sound like the "perfect one";)

If you (or your neighbor) is a fat middle aged scaredy cat, they shouldn't own thier own horse. Nervous/uneducated/scared humans + (most) equines = Emergency Room. And it's not always the schmuck who's over thier head that gets hurt either. I quite nearly got my ankle broke a week back because of an inexperienced handler.

You are just and ignorant person. And-again have a low tolerance of anyone other than yourself...just guessing...you MUST be of the younger set-otherwise known by us "middle aged (BUT NOT FAT, thanks you)" as the ME generation......pretty self explanatory......


If you are a fat middle aged scaredy cat, then go take lessons from a reputable instructor in your discipline of your choice until you are no longer afraid of a horse's shadow. There is no replacement for one on one instruction, on the ground or in the tack. Watching videos and going to the odd clinic isn't going to suddenly make you a whiz kid and you get zero feedback.

Not sure why you think everyone middle aged is fat.....perhaps looking to the future??? But DO agree that learning IS ALWAYS good. and we should always be at least OPEN to it.......

I am fat, but not middle aged. I like to consider myself a skillful horseman. BUT I am not stupid enough to ride a difficult or very green horse alone. I also will not handle horses that I don't know well or are difficult alone.

Yup-there it is.....I knew it....Any of us with any knowledge and common sense who have been around horses know enough not to work alone in many cirumstances, which, as I recall is how this all started...someone wanted some help riding a horse out of an arena so they weren't alone.....so what is all the arguing over??:confused:


Sweeties, I have groomed "outside my discipline" and managed a few barns , including a multidiscipline barn. I've been around a little. Ive already had to deal with the foolishness, and I've watched the NH types in action. Seen enough, don't like koolaid. Don't ASSume that because I don't drink koolaid that I've not been exposed to it.

We have ALL had to deal with "foolishness"-but that shouldn't make us intolerant of others doing what they choose with their horses as long as they are not abusing them or affecting us. What difference does it make to you? AND-PLEASE don't be so patronizing and condescending-I can say I certainly am NOT your sweetie, and am VERY glad you are not anywhere near where I am if you are the type I am gathering you are......

PP SHOULD be open to other ideas. He isn't a god and shouldn't be thinking he's got all the answers. Maybe CA has better ideas on certain subjects than he does. And it would be no different than a rider who trains with say, Frank Madden to take a clinic with GM (or any other BNT). Frank shouldn't have anything to fear (or hide).

Noone called him god......noone said he wasn't open........most of the NH guys all say basically the same thing, and yes, it takes many of us back to the basics we learned years ago...and perhaps forgot. But I can personally say that is does help with the "fear" and-I think many of us have more anxiety with riding new horses and/or new situations as we get older....after all, we just don't bounce off the ground quite as well as we used to, and there are more people depending upon us....ie the job, kids, etc......than when we were 20 something and could care less if we got hurt.....we have a few more responsibilities. That does NOT mean we should have to give up our horses, riding and the things we have loved all our lives. I am also fed up with many people immediately ASSuming that anyone who does NH is a strict follower of PP. Many of us take our traditional training and incorporate that with some of the principles from various NH people...and use whatever priciples work on a particular horse. It just gives us more tools and knowledge.....and last I knew knowledge was a GOOD thing!


Oh, yeah, somewhere back on page 2 (I think) someone tried to equate loose work to long reining. Uhm, no. I've done plenty of both, apples and oranges.

I've got stuff to do. I'll return eventually.......

I won't hold my breath-perhaps you can get a good dose of tolerance and acceptance of others while you are there......:winkgrin:


Sorry folks-I am new here, but many of the "I'm better than you" attitudes are getting to me in this thread. Tried to hold my tongue a bit, but was a bit sarcastic, I'm afraid....I am of the over 50 set, have ridden since I was 8, done several disciplines, and have been around the barn a time or 2 so to speak. (my dad was a "conventional" trainer).That does NOT mean that I have stopped learning.....and there is almost always something new to learn from each new horse, person, discipline and circumstance. I am fairly new to the NH thing, but have found it useful with my new horse....and he has scared me sufficiently that I am trying everything I can to be able to keep him and not sell him, since some of the things he is doing will just cause him to be sold again and again....I am trying to be patient and break that cycle, since I feel there is a good horse in there. I resent people thinking us 50 somethings are all fat.(and scared)...actually a size 6 at 5'8 and proud. I will say that it hurts me to watch people who have an obvious weight problem to do some things on horses...like sitting trot.....However, that does not make me intolerant of them at all, and actually I ride with a few.

Anyway-thanks for letting me vent-Pat just hit the right chords with me!:mad:

[JB]

Very nice posts franknbeans! :yes:

[Bluey]

---"Quote:
Originally Posted by MySparrow
. On the Parelli boards I've been to, if you ask a question about a concept you are bashed, lashed and trashed."---


I didn't think they were any PP boards?
They have a club and if you belong to it, something I doubt, you get to ask LP questions, that's all.
They don't want others giving advice that may be wrong, or that is what a club member told me.

I wonder if maybe you were on a board where some of those PP wannabe's post, that don't really know beans about it, if they were bashing you for asking?:confused:

[QueenofHearts]

:lol::lol:HAhA!!!! oh i do love a good tiff!!!!! Keep up the excellant work ladies and gentleman. Me and my super buttery popcorn are just going to sit back, take a break from college life and enjoy a little snarky snack. Who will me and my pals cheer for today??? Our tradional dressage queens or the NH and PNH peeps? :lol::lol:
This is really a hoot because....
Guess what? I am a dressage rider with a lovely TB.
and...
I am a western rider with a quarter horse that i totally use NH on all the time. But, i am a dressage diva at heart!!!!:winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

[catknsn]

If you are a fat middle aged scaredy cat, then go take lessons from a reputable instructor in your discipline of your choice until you are no longer afraid of a horse's shadow. There is no replacement for one on one instruction, on the ground or in the tack. Watching videos and going to the odd clinic isn't going to suddenly make you a whiz kid and you get zero feedback

I've said before, I will stop making so much fun of NH when I hear that one of those guys at a clinic has looked at a participant and said something along the lines of:

"Ma'am, your horse is fine. He doesn't need additional training. He simply has you cowed, because every time he does X, you get off and put him away. Or you get off and do "ground work," which is substantially easier for him and therefore more desirable than carting your butt around. You need to take lessons and have a trainer show you how to correct X, and if you can't summon up the guts to do it, or you cannot develop enough of a seat to ride through the correction aftermath, you need to sell Boo Boo and get a horse you're not afraid of."

Haven't heard of that happening yet. Not holding my breath.

[catknsn]

[COLOR=blue]I am fairly new to the NH thing, but have found it useful with my new horse....and he has scared me sufficiently that I am trying everything I can to be able to keep him and not sell him, since some of the things he is doing will just cause him to be sold again and again....I am trying to be patient and break that cycle, since I feel there is a good horse in there.


That's a great idea in theory, and I applaud you for trying to break this horse's cycle of failure. However - and I say this because I have done it myself - riding a horse that you are afraid of will never help the horse and will in fact make him worse. Your horse sounds like he has made a career of scaring people and the only thing that will change his career and life path is being ridden by someone who isn't the least bit afraid of him. If you want to break his bad patterns, send him out for training with someone who doesn't fear his antics. I'm a middle aged rider, and you'd better believe I don't ride serious buckers anymore, because I can't fix them anymore. I have neither the courage nor the seat I once had. If I tried, I'd either go off (and then the horse wins) or I'd correct too tentatively or not at all (and then the horse wins). Of course the horse loses in the long run if you do that because we all know what happens to horses who keep bucking people off.

[MySparrow]

---"Quote:
Originally Posted by MySparrow
. On the Parelli boards I've been to, if you ask a question about a concept you are bashed, lashed and trashed."---


I didn't think they were any PP boards?
They have a club and if you belong to it, something I doubt, you get to ask LP questions, that's all.
They don't want others giving advice that may be wrong, or that is what a club member told me.

I wonder if maybe you were on a board where some of those PP wannabe's post, that don't really know beans about it, if they were bashing you for asking?:confused:

It's been a couple of years since I left them, but there were and possibly still are a couple of boards run by people with considerable knowledge of the program. I found them through the Parelli website, which then, at least, offered links to boards and websites of interest. One spinoff was devoted to WAZ -- Walter A. Zetl, when he worked with the Parellis.

[franknbeans]

Yes, thanks for the advice Bluey, and you will be glad to know that the horse (and I ) are currently in "Boot camp"-he is with an excellent trainer, who is also working with me so that we can learn to trust each other...and because I know that my fear IS only making it worse...but have no desire to give in to it. Thank god he is a very patient soul.....and thankfully believes as I do that the best training comes from a combination of "tools" in the box, both conventional and NH. ( I am the "bad" parelli mom who has used to "carrot" stick to hit the horse when he tried to kick me......)
It is simply using different ones until one works....which, ironically enough is something I just recently heard Linda Parelli say on one of the DVD's......Hmmmmm guess they do have a few good ideas!
Believe me, I had NO idea at the beginning of the summer who the Parellis even were....but was fortunate enough to have a friend who owns the barn here where my horses are who is a former college equ. team coach, who is now using and enjoying playing the "games" with her horse....as well as continuing to ride and do conventional stuff. It has greatly opened up my options so that I can do lots more on the ground than just the basic lunging type stuff I used to do.....and it is fun!

[veebug22]

I have done hunters, eq, but currently can be found in the jumper ring. I've also dabbled in dressage. And guess what? I'm a Parelli "tool user." It drives me nuts that every time someone sees a Parelli person do something stupid they think it's hilarious and this is a good place to post it. Let's all laugh at someone who's doing something different and making mistakes. I don't believe in everything Pat Parelli says, nor do I think being an extreme follower of Parelli methods to the point of ignorance regarding other methods and riding skills is a good thing (because I do agree that riding skills are not the crux of what Parelli teaches). But I would say the same thing about any discipline. Likewise, I have seen some terrible dressage riders, hunter riders, not to mention rounds that make me gasp in the jumper ring... and I've heard instructors in all of these disciplines say and do things that just blew my mind in how counterproductive and stupid they were. But you know what? I know that not every person in these disciplines is ignorant. I have never myself met a decent saddleseat rider. All the ones I've had personal interaction with were crap. But that's only because my interaction with people who do saddleseat has been limited. I can't say that these riders were representative of the discipline as a whole. And God knows I would NEVER create a thread making fun of them. If this were a post making fun of a rider in any other discipline--let's say dressage since they recently had a very long thread bashing Parelli-ites--are you telling me that would be okay? Maybe all the hunter/jumpers can get on here and laugh about them. Are you kidding me? Since when did it become acceptable and encouraged on here to make fun of entire discipline (and not in a friendly way)?

[hundredacres]

We need to find a more descriptive name than parellites for those people. Any suggestions?:D


Ground Riders

[hundredacres]

---"Quote:

I didn't think they were any PP boards?
They have a club and if you belong to it, something I doubt, you get to ask LP questions, that's all.
They don't want others giving advice that may be wrong, or that is what a club member told me.

I wonder if maybe you were on a board where some of those PP wannabe's post, that don't really know beans about it, if they were bashing you for asking?:confused:

There is the Savvy Club - a board where you PAY to be a member. But there are Lists (yahoo) and they DO rip people apart for using ANYTHING unPP. And they are just as bad there about unPP as COTH is here about PP ;).

How do I know this? Um,.................I was going through some stuff , okay? Everyone isn't perfect! (In my best teenage voice of angst). ;)

[mp]

I've said before, I will stop making so much fun of NH when I hear that one of those guys at a clinic has looked at a participant and said something along the lines of:

"Ma'am, your horse is fine. He doesn't need additional training. He simply has you cowed, because every time he does X, you get off and put him away. Or you get off and do "ground work," which is substantially easier for him and therefore more desirable than carting your butt around. You need to take lessons and have a trainer show you how to correct X, and if you can't summon up the guts to do it, or you cannot develop enough of a seat to ride through the correction aftermath, you need to sell Boo Boo and get a horse you're not afraid of."

I have. :yes:

Curt Pate to a DQ whose Hanoverian walked all over her and was a veritable spookathon under saddle. He told her she needed to be in charge and stop flinching every time her horse twitched. He worked the horse on the ground and then rode him, (and looked great -- a tall, good-looking cowboy on a big handsome horse :) ). And tried to show her how to get him to do things that ol' Wienerschnitzel didn't want to do. Owner got better, but was still pretty twitchy.

Pate made it clear that the problem was 99% her, not the horse. And she needed to work with a good trainer to help her out. When she said she already was with a trainer, he told her to find someone else or she was going to get hurt. He was polite, but made it clear she was overhorsed.

Parelli doesn't have the market cornered on fat, middle-aged scaredy cats, you know. :lol:

[MSP]

Ok, then, here we go....

I don't care to bash heads with people. Its stupid.

But yeah, I have very little tolerance for the fools who are too terrified to walk 300ft to the barn on thier own.

If you (or your neighbor) is a fat middle aged scaredy cat, they shouldn't own thier own horse.

If you are a fat middle aged scaredy cat, then go take lessons from a reputable instructor in your discipline of your choice until you are no longer afraid of a horse's shadow.

I am fat, but not middle aged. I like to consider myself a skillful horseman. BUT I am not stupid enough to ride a difficult or very green horse alone. I also will not handle horses that I don't know well or are difficult alone.

Sweeties, I have groomed "outside my discipline" and managed a few barns , including a multidiscipline barn. I've been around a little. Ive already had to deal with the foolishness, and I've watched the NH types in action. Seen enough, don't like koolaid. Don't ASSume that because I don't drink koolaid that I've not been exposed to it.

.....

Yes, I can see you are trying very hard not to BASH heads with others; your post was so respectful and mature! :rolleyes:

Yes, you do have very little tolerance; too bad I guess that comes with maturity as well!

Yes, some people are fat and middle aged but that doesn't mean they are unskilled and perhaps even more skilled than your self, perhaps you should find a better way to communicate besides insulting a large percentage of horse people!

If you are a skilled horseman you should be able to handle a green horse both on the ground and riding alone. I have done that most of my life, after all how do you think one trains a horse with out riding it and handling it.

I don't like Parelli but I don't have to and it doesn't give me or anyone else the right to bash others or insult those that do. The OP was a 100% bash IMHO and it was not meant for any discussion on the good and bad of PNH.

Everyone has to start some where, as a SKILLED horseman you should advise people starting out or having trouble to seek professional help. If they don't take your advice there isn't much you can do but inform them that you will be keeping your distance for your own safety, no need to bash or insult. Everyone makes mistakes and I would say that every rider has to deal with a certain amount of fear at some point or another. If you want to carry on you have to get past it; this alone is a skill to learn.

[LookinSouth]

I'll preface this by saying I am NOT a Parelli follower. However, some other NH techniques have been helpful in the past for ground manner training and loading/unloading with my gelding so I am not one to poo poo it all together ;)

However, I just thought I would inform the OP that complete fear of riding in the open outside of an arena is COMMONPLACE around here in New England. In fact it has nothing to do with Parelli followers. The vast majority of dressage, hunter/jumper, saddleseat, Western Pleasure and even Barrel racers do not ride on the trails and in the open around here.
90% of them are too darn scared and the arena is their comfort zone. I've ridden with several people as scared as the woman you describe on trail and not a single one of them were NH people.

Just thought I would share that tidbit of info.

[MistyBlue]

Attention COTH shoppers...clean up on Parelli thread #45758475.

And will someone please restock the Sense Of Humor shelf? :winkgrin:

[trailhorse1]

I have to give a huge congrats. to the OP for starting a thread as large and conflicting and argumentive and screwed up as the thread on horse slaughter. A big HOOORAH to you. I have to say that as usual, horse people cannot agree on anything except that they "love" their horses. After that it is all for oneself and oneself for oneself.
Who really cares what one does with their horse? It is their horse and if they are not harming it or anyone around them, then who cares? Ihave been around horses a long time. I have cared for, ridden, handled, many and many of horses, (and their owners). I don't even have a "spec" to knowing all there is to know about horses. Some people can ride their horses for hours out in the middle if tim-buck-two. Others are focused on the show ring. Yet still others have horses just to have them and are content to just hand walking them, grooming them a bit and just giving them some treats. It takes all kinds of people to make the world.
I believe the OP couldn't ride a horse where I have been if her (him) life depended on it. I would probably blow have the cothers on this forums mind if I told you where I have ridden. Does this make me any better of a horse person? Hell no it doesn't. Should I pick on the OP? No, why? Because I am not a gossipy, rumor spreading, nosey individual as I believe the OP is. Maybe someday someone will ride by your farm and spy on you to see what it is that you cannot do. Once again, horse people are extremely strange group of people.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

For those of you who posess a sense of humor, please go over to the "Stick Horsie Art" thread where Pat and Linda Parellie feature prominently in many of teh stories. It's sheer genius on the part of the artists.

[LMH]

correction


For those of you who posess a sense of humor [AT SOMEONE ELSE'S EXPENSE], please go over to the "Stick Horsie Art" thread where Pat and Linda Parelli feature prominently in many of teh stories. It's sheer genius on the part of the artists.

emphasis added and

[Pat]

Ding ding, catskn. Lets NOT get off or just plain quit every time you get nervous or hit a wall. Today at work a colt decided he didn't want me to catch him in his stall, just as the trainer told me we would start with the fillies instead. (pre-auction video day, blech) I insisted (and he agreed) that I needed to catch the colt first, then move back down to the filly end of the barn. He should not think for a second that he can be silly and get away with it.

It's never a safe or intelligent idea to ride a green horse (by which I mean barely or green broke) while alone? 911 cant call itself folks. When I back a horse I am never alone, thanks. That doesn't mean I can't handle the horse alone!! If I couldn't they'd never make it out of thier stalls! But you should NOT be riding at all if you are incapable of riding at a walk 300 feet. If you are so inexperienced, nervous, or over horsed, you need to go back to riding school horses until you can cope.

But how often do you see those NH gurus suggesting you need to go to a riding school for some riding basics?

If I didnt ride alone, I'd never ride. I am home alone at all week, the SO is only home on the weekends. I am quite capable of riding my horses alone, and I would trail ride if there were any trails.. :( A barn I rented in the past had no ring at all, and I willingly rode alone in a large, very unlevel open field, on each of my horses, who range from older and broke to death to a young and hot Arab cross with a turbo button and a strong aversion to deer.

Speaking of the Arab.... Yeah, I got him from a scaredy cat owner. Not really middle aged, tho, I think... He was such a stinkin' butt head when I took him home. No NH silliness, but plenty of 'scaredy cat' handleing needed to be undone on him. I don't think he ever really did anything to her, but she was terrified of him and could just about turn him out and bring him in. And the QH mare he came with was almost as bad, and had learned how to get out of being ridden by not standing to be mounted. Horsie won't stand, I guess I can't ride... urgh. So, yes, I have little tolerance for scaredy cat owners. Quickest way to ruin a horse is to give it to a scaredy cat...

Nope, not middle aged yet, but I am 36 and with nearly 20 years professional experience, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. And I most certainly don't bounce any more. Ask Lauren! about the time I fell off in Garrett Mountain Park and she and a mounted cop had to hunt my horse down. (man, that one smarted for a while) But if you are afraid of your horse you are already in trouble long before you snap on a lead shank. If you are afraid of being hurt, you are in the WRONG sport, having gotten hurt enough myself I can vouch for that. This is hardly a safe venture! There is, however, a difference between being careful and being so tenative that you give up when your horse puts up a fuss and makes you work for it.

Of course I don't think every one who is middle aged is fat. I said IF. And what I said applies any way. IF you are a scaredy cat of any age or body type, you should be getting regular, in person help. You cannot get what you need from a video or the odd clinic or two. And you most likely should NOT be dealing with a horse that you can't handle alone, let alone one you can't ride 300 feet at a walk. I'll bet you that the person in the original story would have survived just fine if she had just sucked up and gave it a shot.

Moreover, I have never needed special halters, lead ropes or whips to put manners on my horses. Nor have I needed to flick whips or ropes at them, and I've rarely had access to a round pen. I have owned everything from track rejects to half ruined Ayrabs, from yearlings straight from the field to semi-neglected pasture potatoes. All of my horses ship, tie, bathe, clip, stand to mount, longe, blah, blah, blah. No magic or catch phrases required, just fair, firm and consistent handling.

[catknsn]

MP - well, good for Curt Pate. I don't know who he is but I'll google him and check him out. I'm impressed that he did that.

Pat - everybody I know had issues with horses today, must have been in the stars! The 3 y.o. filly I've been working with, who I thought I had cured of her balking problem, had a massive stubborn fit tonight and grew roots. We had quite the war about whether or not we were going to go forward, but I won and we got one more trot in and then I stopped and petted her and quit on a good note.

Everybody seems to want this "partnership" with the horse, but it's really more like a parent-child relationship where you have to lay down non-negotiable rules and stick to them and be consistent and be more stubborn than they are or you're toast. Let's face it, if you're going to give the horse a vote, he's going to vote for you throwing him 2 extra flakes of hay and giving him a nice wither massage and a couple carrots instead of riding!

[King's Ransom]

God forbid, I don't want to hijack the thread ... everyone seems to be having so much fun ... but I do have a question.

If all these people are so afraid of their horses -- and I don't know whether they are or not, but assuming they are -- why do they have such unsuitable horses?

I am 50 years old, never owned a horse until my mid-40s. Horse-crazy little girl who never ever got to have one. Just the kind of person you guys seem to be making fun of. And I can think of plenty of horses I would be scared to death to get on ... not because I am a scaredy cat so much as because I am not an idiot. I value life & limb and I know I am not a good enough rider to handle those beasts. So, I bought myself a saint of a horse who could -- and did -- do everything. Oh, he had some attitude on the ground, but I raised boys so that was not a problem for me. Yes, we did a lot of ground work (I never even heard of Parelli, I just did what made sense) to get him to trust me. But I wouldn't have bought him if I'd had issues under saddle, or if I'd been afraid of him. I can honestly say I was never afraid of King for one milli-second. Nor Elijah. I just wouldn't get a horse I was afraid of.

I don't understand ... there are so many wonderful, sane, well-mannered, fun horses out there ... why would an inexperienced, timid person of a certain age choose to own a frightening horse?

[JB]

IF you are a scaredy cat of any age or body type, you should be getting regular, in person help. You cannot get what you need from a video or the odd clinic or two. And you most likely should NOT be dealing with a horse that you can't handle alone, let alone one you can't ride 300 feet at a walk. I'll bet you that the person in the original story would have survived just fine if she had just sucked up and gave it a shot.
The problem with this whole thread is that this started as a bash BECAUSE those people were "doing" Parelli. I can guarantee you that if those people had never been seen with a rope halter or a carrot stick, this thread would have either never been started, or would have been started with a 180 twist of "guess what, these silly old women at my barn who had been so afraid to ride 300' outside of a round pen finally did it today, that's so cool!!!"

Being afraid to handle your horse, or ride your horse, or ride him outside a round pen or outside of a 100x200 enclosure is not unique to any discipline or method of training.

Moreover, I have never needed special halters, lead ropes or whips to put manners on my horses. Nor have I needed to flick whips or ropes at them, and I've rarely had access to a round pen. I have owned everything from track rejects to half ruined Ayrabs, from yearlings straight from the field to semi-neglected pasture potatoes. All of my horses ship, tie, bathe, clip, stand to mount, longe, blah, blah, blah. No magic or catch phrases required, just fair, firm and consistent handling.
That is fine and dandy and awesome. So what? You choose your equipment, others choose theirs. Rope halters have been around a LONG time because they were easy to make and cheap - they aren't a new NH invention. I don't understand why NH-bashers come into these threads with how they didn't need "special" equipment to do things. Some folks poo-poo the rope halter but think nothing of slapping a chain over the nose and yanking away on that. And MANY of these NH-bashers (not singling anyone out) come into these threads with "I don't need no stinkin' rope halter and a kholrabi stick to get my horse to be nice on the ground" yet they have no problem slapping a 3-ring on the horse with the reins on the lowest ring.

I have found that as with all things "bashing", including this subject, much of it is borne of ignorance and fear of the unknown.

[Amwrider]

I don't understand ... there are so many wonderful, sane, well-mannered, fun horses out there ... why would an inexperienced, timid person of a certain age choose to own a frightening horse?

Because "Poopsie" was obviously "abused" and they want to create a majikal partnership with him so he will be saved.

[Amwrider]

The problem with this whole thread is that this started as a bash BECAUSE those people were "doing" Parelli. I can guarantee you that if those people had never been seen with a rope halter or a carrot stick, this thread would have either never been started, or would have been started with a 180 twist of "guess what, these silly old women at my barn who had been so afraid to ride 300' outside of a round pen finally did it today, that's so cool!!!"

I think the whole reason this started is because so many of us here have had experience with the timid rider that practices NH simply BECAUSE they are so afraid of their horse they don't ride. They are afraid but they want to make a connection and they turn to these games for the wrong reasons.

I see Parelli's show on RFD-TV, and being a trainer myself I am sent Parelli's marketing DVDs and free tickets to his tour stops when he is in the area. I am sure there is some good that can come out of it, but it is mostly simple horsemanship concepts. He just has a slick way of packaging it and marketing it which turns a great deal of people off. Some of it I find downright silly.

Now, back to these people who turn to the games for the wrong reasons. The Parelli-istas I have run into, for the most part seem to be - YES - middle aged women. Those that were not middle aged women were timid natured around horses.

I suppose they at a point in their life where they wanted to live their dream of owning a horse and went into it with very little practical experience and a lot of "black stallionitis." They want a majikal connection with their horse. Maybe they turned to Parelli with ideas of this majikal connection, maybe they just realized they got in over their heads (because he was abused, of course) with their horse but didn't want to pay someone else to work with Poopsie because they wanted that personal majikal connection all to themselves.

They like the idea of playing games with their horses. Games are fun, training is hard. They watch their expensive majikal DVDs, they wiggle their expensive majical ropes attached to their expensive majikal halters and wave their expensive majikal sticks at Poopsie and expect that there will be a point when the clouds will part, a ray of sunshine will beam down on them (insert harp music) because that is how it happens in the movies and the horse books - that majikal connection just takes time to happen then BLAMMO hey, that is how it happened in the Black Stallion and in Flicka, right? So they play games with their expensive pet waiting for that moment to happen. They think they will know when it comes. :yes:

They think that harmony (insert harp music) will happen by being equal with their horse. They don't understand that the Parelli concept (the whole controling where he puts his feet, making the horse move out of your personal space, etc.) are not to establish you and the horse as equals, they are to establish you as the "herd leader" to get the horse's respect.

They want an equal partnership, Poopsie doesn't want to work today because he is not using the "thinking" side of his brain, so we will put him away. :no: Well obviously they are not using the "thinking" side of their brain in seeing that they are encouraging a habit. Horse doesn't want to work, we don't have to. Horses are opportunistic enough to pick up on how they can get out of work like this and of course bad habits often escalate or never seem to go away. That is why so many of these people never seem to ride. The horse doesn't do what they want and they are confused or scared by it so they put the horse away. Obviously their harmony (insert harp music) hasn't happened yet.

Look at Parelli's audience nest time on RFD-TV. Who is in the audience? Do you see a lot of men out there? When he chooses the horses for his demonstrations and they introduce the owners, how many of them are men? What age demographic do those people tend to be?

Does Parelli ever tell someone they need to go ride with a riding instructor? Not that I have seen (and if he does, it is probably to one of his Parelli graduates). Why would he direct someone away from his slick little marketing scheme?

He wants them to drink more Kool-aid, and boy do these newbie women drink it up! Then they try to preach it. I had some woman at a boarding barn I was at once try to shame me for daring to teach my riders proper equitation - because proper riding is "Fluidity" dontcha know. She spoke about it like it is it's own riding discipline. How dare I tell my riders to keep their heels down. Bad, Bad me.

In my 5 months at that barn do you think I ever saw her ride? Um, nope, but she seemed to know how it should all be done and apparently was vocal about it to my customers when I wasn't around or was busy out in the arena. I honestly think she is the reason I lost so much business at that place, that is the first and only barn where I couldn't keep customers.


I have found that as with all things "bashing", including this subject, much of it is borne of ignorance and fear of the unknown.

I am not ignorant of it, nor am I fearful of it. I am amused by it.

[msj]

Frankly, I don't see that there is as much 'bashing' as relaying experiences people have had with the parelli/NH people. I didn't BASH the parelli training even though I called the girl an idiot (she was an idiot in her own right), but what I saw, in the name of parelli, was enough to make me run like hell. And like I said, I most certainly would not consider spending 1 red cent to go to one of his or one of his underlings clinics based on that 'performance'. Perhaps if there was no or a reasonable auditing fee some non-parelli people might go just to see what's up, but around here, the few times a NH person was here, the cost was quite high and feedback from those that went was not too great. :rolleyes: I have no doubt that a lot of us use basic groundwork that parelli/NH do but we learned it long before any of the NH people started to capitalize on it. :sigh:

I think every boarding barn has had at least one parelli-type at one time or another around here. Thank god for my own farm and that I don't take boarders!! :yes:

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I was at one barn where the parelli-ista did the games to yanni music.

I rest my case.

[hundredacres]

I am sure there is some good that can come out of it, but it is mostly simple horsemanship concepts.[...]
I am not ignorant of it, nor am I fearful of it. I am amused by it.

I think the good that has come from a lot of NH is that people are listening to their horses more than before and recognizing that we need to learn more about ho rse laanguage. It has trickled into a lot of places where before the mindset was "Don't ever let the horse win"...which is how I was brought up. And I was taught to ALWAYS show the horse who is boss (with a VERY heavy hand) and I never, ever considered the horse.

Eventually the pendulum should swing back and reach the middle somewhere for these people who know nothing BUT NH. If not, it will be like everything else - there is a Left, a Right and the sane people hang out in the Middle.

[olympicprincess]

If all these people are so afraid of their horses -- and I don't know whether they are or not, but assuming they are -- why do they have such unsuitable horses?
The followers at my training barn don't really have unsuitable horses, the owners just believe that doing all this will make their horses perfect under saddle and if they aren't perfect under saddle, back to ground work they go, rather than getting help on how to RIDE a horse :sigh:...

I agree with the quote below:
I think the whole reason this started is because so many of us here have had experience with the timid rider that practices NH simply BECAUSE they are so afraid of their horse they don't ride.

[MSP]

It's never a safe or intelligent idea to ride a green horse (by which I mean barely or green broke) while alone? 911 cant call itself folks. When I back a horse I am never alone, thanks. That doesn't mean I can't handle the horse alone!! If I couldn't they'd never make it out of thier stalls! But you should NOT be riding at all if you are incapable of riding at a walk 300 feet. If you are so inexperienced, nervous, or over horsed, you need to go back to riding school horses until you can cope.


If I didnt ride alone, I'd never ride. I am home alone at all week, the SO is only home on the weekends. I am quite capable of riding my horses alone, and I would trail ride if there were any trails.. :( A barn I rented in the past had no ring at all, and I willingly rode alone in a large, very unlevel open field, on each of my horses, who range from older and broke to death to a young and hot Arab cross with a turbo button and a strong aversion to deer.




I am a bit confused here. So what would you do if you brought home a green broke 3 year old? Just ride him 300 feet from the barn at a walk? Not ride at all until your neighbor comes over to ride with you (be careful now because your neighbor might make you into a joke on internet BB for this)?

Perhaps we need to define green broke; for me a green horse is one that isn't finished. Like my filly, she has been under saddle for 2 months is being direct reined and has a one rein stop. I have no riding arena (in the process of building one), and Mon- Fri I ride at night on the lawn if it is dark and in the field behind my house if I can see. Weekends are spent riding anywhere I can; roads, trails, and corn fields.

So for me, if you wouldn't ride my filly outside an arena by yourself I might consider you over horsed and wouldn't that put you under the same scrutiny as this thread has put many others?

My point is the OP is comfortable with her mount riding in the great outdoors and the neighbor is not. The comfort level is determined by the riders experience with horses and her riding skill NOT with their techniques used.

BTW, rope halters are a cowboy thing and I can think of many spoiled English trained horses that could use a little cowboy make over!

[Auventera Two]

I don't understand ... there are so many wonderful, sane, well-mannered, fun horses out there ... why would an inexperienced, timid person of a certain age choose to own a frightening horse?

A lot of people don't necessarily go out and buy a man killer headed for slaughter. Instead something happens to their sweet old boy and he becomes terrified and/or mean. I was given a lovely 4 year old AQHA mare for my high school graduation who was full of talent and potential. Very sweet mare, well started under saddle, perfectly sound. I wanted to show her so we hired a professional trainer to get some polish.

Within about 3 rides, he'd managed to ruin the mare. He told us she was headstrong and "mareish" and needed a good setdown or she'd never learn to canter properly. He tied her head to her chest and whacked her and made her gallop around the indoor until she was a latherly mess. He fed us a load of bull about how this was the ONLY WAY this mare would EVER have a good canter.

He didn't last a week, but the damage was done. The mare never got over it. She was a very very "soft" mare to begin with. Sensitive, easy going, emotional, easily bullied.

So then there I was - a 17 year old kid with a mare who bolted and panicked every time you tried to canter her. I ended up doing trail riding with her for a while before we sold her as a broodmare. She was perfectly happy doing that but a few months back I found her advertised on an auction site out on the East Coast. :no: :(

[Auventera Two]

What's green? I consider green to be anything less than 100% finished and polished. I consider my 4.5 year old Arabian green. I've done a season of endurance riding with her, and a couple of small shows. To me, she's green because she barely has lateral work, no turn on haunches or forehand, no lead changes. She knows whoa, walk, trot, canter, gallop, on the trail. That's it. I will likely consider her green for another year at least.

[jeano]

Here’s what amazes me, that anyone thinks fat middleaged and sometimes, lord help me, afraid of the horse I’m riding, that ANYONE thinks I think I’m better than my THIN middleaged neighbors. I actually don’t sit a horse as well as the neighbor, who, though several years older, is about 65 pounds lighter with a wiry build, and I think, better hands than I will ever have. She hand raised her horse from infancy, practically. This and the fact that she is looking for that majikal connection hasn’t helped things. She is not very assertive with animals. Her former saddle horse was a mild mannered laid back QH who reportedly never gave her any anxiety, and she rode him everywhere. My point, which I TRIED to make in a humorous way, is that in her case NH of the PP variety, after TWO YEARS, is not helping what clearly seems to me to be traumatic fear.

And, just for the record, folks… I sipped the Kool Ade, watched the level one dvds, bought and read PPs book with attention and concentration, and played games with my mare when she hated me and when I was too injured (by her) to ride her. (The neighbor, with missionary zeal, insisted I do this, and I thought, what the hey, cant hurt.) Then I got back on, sweating bullets, I might add, and worked on riding her. Then I abandoned game playing, while the neighbors worked very very hard at doing everything PP says to do the wrong way. They didn’t work with or ride the horses consistently, didn’t use them for transportation, didn’t call in a PP trainer for help, didn’t extend themselves, and used selective attention to PP’s training methods to justify dismounting every time the horses sneezed or farted. However, they are TRUE believers in their eyes, and will get it right someday. My question is, how and when? Will PP ever tell this lady that more money thrown in pats pockets wont fix her horse? Actually, I don’t think PNH has harmed the horse, but it hasn’t helped the owner much. And the owner, God love her, would never harm a horse, but I’m pretty sure that the fat belly and the sway back this YOUNG horse is getting from lack of exercise aint HELPING it, either.

I bet I’ve never ridden lots of places y’all have, too. Never shown, never hunted, never done dressage, etc etc. But I have ridden in canyons out west, in swamps down South, and all up and down a lot of Appalachian hills, mostly by myself. I rode bareback as a teenager because I couldn’t afford tack, and I rode badly because I couldn’t afford lessons. I didn’t ride from sometime in college until nearly 2 decades later. As a pushing 40 re-rider I took lessons for a couple years before buying a horse. Then after a few years I had to quit riding for more than 10 years, not getting horses again until I was 52. Believe me, I KNOW about traumatic fear and its aftermath. I also know I will never be a really good rider, but then, my goal is to stay alive on the horse with the least possible amount of pain and suffering for both of us.

It is frustrating for me personally and I wish the neighbor could listen to some sense about what is holding her back, because I wouldn’t mind some company on my rides. But ol PP doesn’t talk to her about fear and riding lessons and that stuff, or if he does, she aint listening.

And as regards scary horses, well, lets see. I didn’t sell my mare because I thought she was so unsafe I’d be criminally responsible if some fool bought her. She isnt unsafe now. My goal in life is to make her a packer. She’s about halfway there. And I’m no horse trainer, just a duffer. I know, I know, I Shouldn’t Own a Horse. Other people don’t sell unsuitable horses because they LOOOOOOVe them so much…. And now, its off to the field to catch the gelding and go for a ride. By myself. Thru the woods. Spooking at coyotes and turkeys and deer oh my.

[intheopen]

I'll preface this by saying I am NOT a Parelli follower. However, some other NH techniques have been helpful in the past for ground manner training and loading/unloading with my gelding so I am not one to poo poo it all together ;)

However, I just thought I would inform the OP that complete fear of riding in the open outside of an arena is COMMONPLACE around here in New England. In fact it has nothing to do with Parelli followers. The vast majority of dressage, hunter/jumper, saddleseat, Western Pleasure and even Barrel racers do not ride on the trails and in the open around here.
90% of them are too darn scared and the arena is their comfort zone. I've ridden with several people as scared as the woman you describe on trail and not a single one of them were NH people.

Just thought I would share that tidbit of info.


I frequent this message board quite a bit and read the advice that many of the riders/trainers put up on here. A lot of really good advice is give through this board.

Granted I just signed up, but this is because I need to get this out.

I don't know why you PUT DOWN riders that don't ride in the open. Again, that is their preference. What I gather from your posts, you must have some insecurity in your own riding to be posting about others on what they do and or don't do with their horses.

Here in New England there are glorious trails that go on for miles and miles throughout the states, what makes you think no one uses them? Do you honestly think that you are the only one that goes out on trails or rides your horse out in the open?

The facility that I come from there are a riders that exercise their horses daily both in the ring and out in the trails/fields that surround us. I am really not starting an argument but I think it is shallow to broadly criticize riders of every discipline.

Riding in the open has nothing to really do with natural horsemanship or Parelli. It has to do with what kind of options are available to the rider. Not everyone has a trailer or a facility that is surrounded by miles and miles of trails. I think it may be time that you lay off of the "riding in the open" comments that you so frequently post throughout other threads.

And as far as the the Parelli people, yes, hearing that name is getting quite old, but if it works for you and your horse, power to you.

[JB]

Frankly, I don't see that there is as much 'bashing' as relaying experiences people have had with the parelli/NH people.

My point was that if those people had not been known as "those Parelli people", this thread wouldn't have been started. Those folks would have just been another set of people trying to enjoy their horses but not really sure how. To pick on them purely because of the PNH association is indeed bashing because of a prejudice.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

For one lesson, when I didn't have Ted long, someone suggested I use an NH disciple (supposedly a professional) to help me with my horse's ground manners. While Ted is bottom of the totem pole in the herd, he had learned to be offensive as a defense aagainst abuse.

I had no issues under saddle, since Ted had apparently not been abused under saddle. This professional introduced me to round penning - the idea was, to tire out my horse so that he would look to me as the person who said, "Now you can stop" and submit.

Well, it doesn't always work. Depends on the horse, and I can tell you now, it didn't work for Ted. And I did not like what I saw. (I will add, as a side note, I resisted doing free longing with my horse until I saw my current trainer working with someone and her horse - in her approach, it is all about relaxation, being aware of your body, and adjusting your body and your horse's body remotely in a physical therapy type of session. I can actually get trot lengthenings now, I can half halt, I can ask him to lighten up his forehand. There is no tension, I can see him go from croup high to level, or level to being even lighten on his forehand, and there is no lathering or chasing). But - I should add - while I may do this in place of riding, depending upon time, or weather, or in addition to, as a warm up, it is NOT done to "tire" him out or get the kinks out.

Shortly after the lesson, the guy got in touch about another lesson, and I told him I couldn't because I had a riding lesson at that time. He was dumbfounded - you see, I wasn't supposed to ride my horse until I'd worked out all our ground issues.

For real, now.

I'll repeat this one more time: what I see in natural horsemanship taht I think is good, is hardly innovative or new. It's out there, it's just knowing where to find it. Believing that there has to be a better way. It is there in the writings of classical masters. All of them. Does this mean that people who do dressage, for example, always follow this? hardly. So it's not just that Parelli followers don't always set a shining example.

But the stuff Parelli does that is good is not new, and not his. But there is much that he does that I believe is counterproductive, if not downrigtht dangerous.

(I can't believe I am still posting on this thread. Call me Ms...I mean, DR Procrastination!)

[msj]

I can't believe I am still posting on this thread. Call me Ms...I mean, DR Procrastination!)


You and me both DGRH- I can't believe I'm still wasting time reading it!! :rolleyes: I think it's definitely time to move on to something more interesting-like watching the grass grow! :lol:

[Bluey]

For one lesson, when I didn't have Ted long, someone suggested I use an NH disciple (supposedly a professional) to help me with my horse's ground manners. While Ted is bottom of the totem pole in the herd, he had learned to be offensive as a defense aagainst abuse.

I had no issues under saddle, since Ted had apparently not been abused under saddle. This professional introduced me to round penning - the idea was, to tire out my horse so that he would look to me as the person who said, "Now you can stop" and submit.

Well, it doesn't always work. Depends on the horse, and I can tell you now, it didn't work for Ted. And I did not like what I saw. (I will add, as a side note, I resisted doing free longing with my horse until I saw my current trainer working with someone and her horse - in her approach, it is all about relaxation, being aware of your body, and adjusting your body and your horse's body remotely in a physical therapy type of session. I can actually get trot lengthenings now, I can half halt, I can ask him to lighten up his forehand. There is no tension, I can see him go from croup high to level, or level to being even lighten on his forehand, and there is no lathering or chasing). But - I should add - while I may do this in place of riding, depending upon time, or weather, or in addition to, as a warm up, it is NOT done to "tire" him out or get the kinks out.

Shortly after the lesson, the guy got in touch about another lesson, and I told him I couldn't because I had a riding lesson at that time. He was dumbfounded - you see, I wasn't supposed to ride my horse until I'd worked out all our ground issues.

For real, now.

I'll repeat this one more time: what I see in natural horsemanship taht I think is good, is hardly innovative or new. It's out there, it's just knowing where to find it. Believing that there has to be a better way. It is there in the writings of classical masters. All of them. Does this mean that people who do dressage, for example, always follow this? hardly. So it's not just that Parelli followers don't always set a shining example.

But the stuff Parelli does that is good is not new, and not his. But there is much that he does that I believe is counterproductive, if not downrigtht dangerous.

(I can't believe I am still posting on this thread. Call me Ms...I mean, DR Procrastination!)

Oh, again, that fellow may have considered himself a NH trainer, but if he wanted to tire the horse into paying attention to you, he was not a real trainer, any more than those that longe a hunter forever so he doesn't act up with the rider are training.

When we blame bad training on a method or another, we have to be sure we are not again blaming on a bad trainer's take on that method, NH or traditional.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

This guy was John Lyons certified. I agree, that doesn't make him a great trainer, in and of itself. However, I have yet to see anything in the roundpenning/longing offered up by various NH practioners that actually using longing in the way I described. Ditto in hand work. Ditto long reining.

[Bluey]

This guy was John Lyons certified. I agree, that doesn't make him a great trainer, in and of itself. However, I have yet to see anything in the roundpenning/longing offered up by various NH practioners that actually using longing in the way I described. Ditto in hand work. Ditto long reining.


JL is not really a NH trainer, but a salesman that found horses, was fascinated by them and how to train them, learned much and then set up aprogram to teach others how to learn about them.
The problem was that he had only learned so much, so he had to keep backtracking and learning more as he went, didn't really had a good, solid foundation himself.
I would say that he falls somewhere between NH and traditional training methods.

JL talks a very good talk, but the little I have seen, he is not that good himself, admitting that anyone spending most of it's life with horses is surely better than most of the rest of the public.
Don't know how any of his certified students would be.
I would say it depends how much else than the JL system they are knowledgeable in.

[arena run]

A lot of people don't necessarily go out and buy a man killer headed for slaughter. Instead something happens to their sweet old boy and he becomes terrified and/or mean. I was given a lovely 4 year old AQHA mare for my high school graduation who was full of talent and potential. Very sweet mare, well started under saddle, perfectly sound. I wanted to show her so we hired a professional trainer to get some polish.

Within about 3 rides, he'd managed to ruin the mare. He told us she was headstrong and "mareish" and needed a good setdown or she'd never learn to canter properly. He tied her head to her chest and whacked her and made her gallop around the indoor until she was a latherly mess. He fed us a load of bull about how this was the ONLY WAY this mare would EVER have a good canter.

He didn't last a week, but the damage was done. The mare never got over it. She was a very very "soft" mare to begin with. Sensitive, easy going, emotional, easily bullied.

So then there I was - a 17 year old kid with a mare who bolted and panicked every time you tried to canter her. I ended up doing trail riding with her for a while before we sold her as a broodmare. She was perfectly happy doing that but a few months back I found her advertised on an auction site out on the East Coast. :no: :(


How would you treat one like this? Reason is I've got a coming 5yo w/this temperment. Very sensitive, smart, willing, not easy-going in the 'qh' sense of the word but certainly one to take some strange stuff in stride w/out totally blowing a gasket. Someone I rode w/described her as emotional and I thought that fit her ooooh-so well.

I seem to work best w/the ones who have a bit of 'fight' to them. I think I pick this type mare, not necessarily on purpose, but I just seem to 'click' w/them better. I'm probably too aggressive for my 5yo. I have tried to really tone it down and wait paaaaatiently for her to figure it out. I bred for her and choose her dam because she was one of those fight-pickers. Lots of spunk and sass but Regie didn't take after her. :( sylvia

[arena run]

I was at one barn where the parelli-ista did the games to yanni music.

I rest my case.


Dearest, Ribbon... Don't you think... somewhere deeeeeeep down in yore soul.... that it ain't got so much to do w/it being Parelli, as the type girl it was to begin with? Huh? sylvia

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Does make you wonder. I didn't know her well enough to know if she did yanni beforehand, and just thought it was another thing to do yanni by.

I will say, the look on the BM's face when he came out of the barn and saw her and what she was doing and heard the tape...priceless.

[arena run]

LOL

[Pat]

And MANY of these NH-bashers (not singling anyone out) come into these threads with "I don't need no stinkin' rope halter and a kholrabi stick to get my horse to be nice on the ground" yet they have no problem slapping a 3-ring on the horse with the reins on the lowest ring.


Well, that's an interesting leap.

ANY bridle in the hands of a poor rider is a weapon, not a tool, so what is the point here?

A three ring?? Is that the worst thing you could come up with? REally, now, even on the third ring they have very little leverage. You need to put a curb strap on them to give them any significant leverage.

And since you don't sleep in other folk's tack rooms, how exactly do you know what bits the "bashers" use??

HMMM, lets see what's on my bridles right now... A KK augurian, not sure of the "right" name, but it's got that fancy anatomically correct mouth (at $3, my best tack swap find), a KK knock off with the "bean" in the center (only thing that fits in Dallas's little bitty mouth), a "Little S" hackamore (most folks will tell you that this one has very little "whoa"), and Sprenger hackamore. Oooohhhh I'm so mean to my horses!!

[Pat]

AAHHHHAAAHAHA!~!!!! YANNI!! RUN AWAY!!

Yuck. I worked with a nut case trainer that would play the occaisonal Yanni CD in the barn. I sooo wanted to kill him.


Oh, the colt and I are friends again... I'm not sure what yesterday was all about, but they did all know that something was going on that was different. We had a cute n' cuddley moment today. To bad he's an expensive pacer, I'd buy him! DONOT need a race horse!!! Now there's a money pit.

[JB]

Pat, where did I say all of "you" use "more" bit? I didn't.

But I've been on these boards for a heck of a lotta years and I've seen who asks what sort of questions about going to a bigger bit and who recommends what sort of "training" (ie shortcuts) for "problem" horses, and there is a not-so-little correlation that I have seen between those folks and those who come on very strongly in the negative way on these NH threads.


I never said that only people who use double-twisted bycicle chain bits with studded cranknosebands come here and bash those who like to ride in rope halters and do it well.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Hmmm.... I ride in a bridle without the flash. Have never used one. Ever. And never put anything but a snaffle in Ted's mouth (first a hollowmouth, now the Herm Sprenger KK ultra).Well,e xcept for peeps. And neccos. And oatmeal raisin cookies. And goodnplenty.

But you catch my drift.

[msj]

Pat, where did I say all of "you" use "more" bit? I didn't.

But I've been on these boards for a heck of a lotta years and I've seen who asks what sort of questions about going to a bigger bit and who recommends what sort of "training" (ie shortcuts) for "problem" horses, and there is a not-so-little correlation that I have seen between those folks and those who come on very strongly in the negative way on these NH threads.


I never said that only people who use double-twisted bycicle chain bits with studded cranknosebands come here and bash those who like to ride in rope halters and do it well.

Gee JB, does that include the member from your BB that had to come here as an alter about using a Mikmar bit because she was afraid to come as herself for fear people might think she was a 'bad' hunter/jumper trainer??? And no one on your BB seemed upset about it. :sigh: :rolleyes: Oh, that's right, the bit was 'supposedly' used once as a correction.... yea right. Same trainer said to me at a local breed show when she was showing a 3 yr old stud, "Do you think I should use a cocktail?" Good training for sure.... :sigh:

Edited to add: And I wasn't going to bother with this thread any more-damn! :rolleyes:

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Me, too. But I'm finishing my coffee...

[dressage_x]

i actually do parelli, or used to.

i was working with a crazyy warmblood of my trainers. he used break crossties if you tried to tack him up, and just do alot of really scary stuff. we tried breaking him of it the "real" way. but in the end we tried parelli.

it did work, but as we got up to the higher levels he became a pigheaded jerk. so it DID work...but i also had to use my own methods.


don't bash it till you try it.:)

[LookinSouth]

Being afraid to handle your horse, or ride your horse, or ride him outside a round pen or outside of a 100x200 enclosure is not unique to any discipline or method of training.
.

:yes::yes:

[LookinSouth]

I don't know why you PUT DOWN riders that don't ride in the open. Again, that is their preference. What I gather from your posts, you must have some insecurity in your own riding to be posting about others on what they do and or don't do with their horses.

Here in New England there are glorious trails that go on for miles and miles throughout the states, what makes you think no one uses them? Do you honestly think that you are the only one that goes out on trails or rides your horse out in the open?
.

Actually I was simply pointing out that a fear of riding in the open is certainly not limited to PP followers. In fact, I know several riders with NH backgrounds that are quite competent both in and out of the ring.

I find it quite amusing :lol::lol:that you are so concerned about my mere opinion that you would create a screename to state your disgust.

And of course I know that others use the "miles and miles" of trails. I ride with those people regularly. That's kinda my point WHY people around here have no excuse to NOT ride in the open. Its good for the horse and they deserve a break from the daily ho hum work of the ring.

That is my opinion and I am entitled to it. You certainly do not have to agree and quite frankly I don't give a Rats patootie if you DON'T.:yes:

BTW I find it very far fetched that you ride the "fields and trails" and go for a "good XC course ride" like you state in your profile:D:lol::lol:

If Ya did, you wouldn't be so miffed by my opinion now would you??:eek::lol:

[Kairoshorses]

I'm coming late, but I did have to laugh when I read the first post. I recently audited a Parelli clinic ($25 for one day--and only half, really, since I had to go into work for half a day, which is more than auditing the dressage clinics our club sometimes puts on), and I did see several new-to-horses, romantic-thinking relatively timid, middle-aged women (at least one of whom had an untrained mustang) who were doing a lot on the ground (all of them really nice, btw). The woman hosting the seminar was a competent rider (and while she was on the ground working on some sort of certification sans tack, her husband rode--as did the clinician, who had brought along a new horse to give him "miles").

I have to say that the ground stuff is good--I'm doing some of it with my yearling--but as DQRH notes, it's similar stuff to that I've read in other books, and I do vary my actions based on the reaction I get from my colt.

Perhaps my biggest problem (ok, two of them) is that they do love to make new believers, and I feel like I do when the Jehovah's Witnesses come to call (I respect them, but I really am quite happy with my own faith). I'm on a list, and I have to explain over and over that I really can't afford to spend (insert number here, but always over $300) for a weekend over and over again--I DO go to clinics for dressage and eventing, but usually with people I've worked with or that I've heard good things about, and usually to help me work on an issue or issues I'm having with my riding, and usually only 3-4 times a year.

I've also been visited by these folks, too, and while they are really nice (and I am a sucker--I have to be nice to other nice people), my husband calls them the "pod people" because they are so dogged about preaching the good news of Parelli.

My second problem is the cost of the paraphernalia, and the NECESSITY of having it (and spending big bucks on all the training/DVDs/etc.). I have rope halters, various whips, etc., but I wouldn't even be ALLOWED to be in a clinic w/o the "right stuff". Now I DO understand the idea of having the right equipment, but I also understand that often the "unbrand" works just as well as the brand name. It seems to be working with my yearling.

I really don't mean to offend anyone, and I'm sure no one else has intended to offend. Sometimes email doesn't convey tone of voice, context, etc. I guess I see some stereotyping going on (like dressage riders are all pampered queens, eventers are all crazy, etc. etc.), but the thing that made me laugh was that the stereotype was rooted, at least for me, in my experience/context.

Signed, a crazy eventer who is also a Dr who's procrastinating (who wants to grade or write on a Saturday evening?!?). If you fall off, I can't really help you, but I can quote you rhetorical terms.....

[JB]

Gee JB, does that include the member from your BB that had to come here as an alter about using a Mikmar bit because she was afraid to come as herself for fear people might think she was a 'bad' hunter/jumper trainer???

Actually, it does not include that person because that person does not come to these NH threads, either bashing or defending ;)

[Bluey]

---"I've also been visited by these folks, too, and while they are really nice (and I am a sucker--I have to be nice to other nice people), my husband calls them the "pod people" because they are so dogged about preaching the good news of Parelli."---

If you have been to any of the PP demonstrations, not the clinics their certified instructors teach, you will have heard over and over PP say NOT TO PREACH to others about what they do, that such turns people off.
He tells people to SHOW them what can be done thru their system.

Right or wrong, ego stroking it may be for PP, those PP zealots are doing more harm to his system by their over enthusiasm.
PP knows it and tries to prevent it. Doesn't always work, evidently.;)

I have seen that converted zealotry happen in many other venues, with people coming off other clinicians or working under a trainer.
It is good to think the world of your teachers and systems, your beliefs and have strong principles.
Just remember that others have theirs, they may not be the same and they still have the right to them.:)

[JB]

Perhaps my biggest problem (ok, two of them) is that they do love to make new believers, and I feel like I do when the Jehovah's Witnesses come to call (I respect them, but I really am quite happy with my own faith). I'm on a list, and I have to explain over and over that I really can't afford to spend (insert number here, but always over $300) for a weekend over and over again--I DO go to clinics for dressage and eventing, but usually with people I've worked with or that I've heard good things about, and usually to help me work on an issue or issues I'm having with my riding, and usually only 3-4 times a year.

I've also been visited by these folks, too, and while they are really nice (and I am a sucker--I have to be nice to other nice people), my husband calls them the "pod people" because they are so dogged about preaching the good news of Parelli.
Believe me, as much as I like the program, I DO know where you are coming from as I don't like the cult-ishness of it all. I just look past that and look at the program itself. I think there are 2 types of PNHers - those who are gullible and jump into the cult mindset, and those who actually have their heads on straight. However, I think you'll also find that those gullible/cult people are also "out there" in much of their lives anyway - not crazy, not stupid, but what some folks would call "weird" - they like Yanni, they like crystals, they like the "grunge" look, the like long skirts and no bras, etc. Certainly not all of them, but part of what attracts some folks to PNH, as opposed to the others, is the base personality of those folks. I have a feeling many of "you" (in general!) who don't like PNH also don't tend to hang out with the type of people who DO like PNH.

My second problem is the cost of the paraphernalia, and the NECESSITY of having it (and spending big bucks on all the training/DVDs/etc.). I have rope halters, various whips, etc., but I wouldn't even be ALLOWED to be in a clinic w/o the "right stuff". Now I DO understand the idea of having the right equipment, but I also understand that often the "unbrand" works just as well as the brand name. It seems to be working with my yearling.
I totally agree, and if I ever tried to attend a clinic but couldn't because my stuff wasn't stamped PNH, I'd be saying nothanks and doing a 180. However, not all clinicians require the PNH-brand, though they will require the right TYPE of equipment because what it's made of is important to the program. I don't own a PNH bridle or halter or stick or rope (ok, yes, I got the PNH 45' rope because it was the best deal :eek:) or bb pad, I have other cheaper brands or made them myself.

[JB]

If you have been to any of the PP demonstrations, not the clinics their certified instructors teach, you will have heard over and over PP say NOT TO PREACH to others about what they do, that such turns people off.
He tells people to SHOW them what can be done thru their system.


You are so right! So many of the things that the regular world sees out there of the PNHers are things that Pat and Linda tell people NOT to do - do NOT spend more than a few months, tops, at Level 1; do NOT give others advice (publically at least ;)) on what to/not to do about a problem they are having unless you are a certified instructor; do NOT try to "help" anyone who hasn't asked for it; do NOT use a difficult horse for your first Levels horse. Yet many of those things are exactly what the overzealous newbies to the program try to do, and yes, it IS harmful to the PNH reputation, unfortunately.

[MySparrow]

Believe me, as much as I like the program, I DO know where you are coming from as I don't like the cult-ishness of it all. I just look past that and look at the program itself. I think there are 2 types of PNHers - those who are gullible and jump into the cult mindset, and those who actually have their heads on straight. However, I think you'll also find that those gullible/cult people are also "out there" in much of their lives anyway - not crazy, not stupid, but what some folks would call "weird" - they like Yanni, they like crystals, they like the "grunge" look, the like long skirts and no bras, etc.

Oh, come on, this is just silly. Six years ago my mother and I attended a clinic at the Parelli place in Colorado. Seated on those hay bales under the tarps for several days, cheek by jowl with hundreds and hundreds of Parelli's fans and, some of them, cultists, I met people from many walks of life and political outlooks and economic and educational milieux. Aside from the fact that by the second day we were all the same color as the very dusty soil, there wasn't a "grunge" person out there. I saw no crystals, heard no Yanni and everybody was appropriately attired (except me and my mom -- no cowboy hats;)).

I was completely blown away by Pat Parelli's seat and horsemanship, vastly entertained though largely unmoved by the hype. I loved seeing the draft teams hitched to the forecarts heading off for morning chores. I loved being surrounded by people who loved horses. I loved watching a guy canter his pretty little mare, heading off on some task, the mare bridleless and saddleless and happily carrying herself in perfect outline. I loved the sensible orderliness of it, the way everything worked as it was intended to and the figurative trains ran on time. I loved the openness and friendliness of every single staff member I encountered. I walked away with new information and some new tools in my toolbox. But I completely understood the many men and women -- all dressed normally and without apparent weirdness -- who were prepared to dedicate their lives to Parelli practices.

Furthermore, Parelli has made some inroads in the "cowboy" population here in Mississippi. Not a crystal amongst 'em.

Stereotyping does not good argument make. It's pretty easy to bash just about every clinician in every discipline if you just want to look at some of the people who purportedly follow that clinician. Some of 'em are pretty scary, many are silly, whether it be Parelli or Lyons or Anderson or whomever they follow.

It can be fun to bash other people. Maybe it makes us feel better about ourselves if we can point out the flaws in others. Maybe there is entertainment value in poking fun.

But I don't see a lot more value in it than that. Do you, really?

[JB]

mysparrow, I re-read my post and realized I didn't word it quite right.

Yes, there are people who are enamoured with the program for the mystical qualities, and who don't "get it" for one reason or another. Of the ones I have encountered, the majority of those have been of the type I described - "out there" in their regular lives. But I know enough to not assume they are all like that, and because one is "out there" in their regular lives does not mean they will be one of those who expect something to fall out of the sky and make it all good with their horse. But *in general* when you find a PNH person who is very devoted to the program, they are also typically involved in other "out there" activities. What you define as "out there" might not be what I define as such.

[MySparrow]

mysparrow, I re-read my post and realized I didn't word it quite right.

Yes, there are people who are enamoured with the program for the mystical qualities, and who don't "get it" for one reason or another. Of the ones I have encountered, the majority of those have been of the type I described - "out there" in their regular lives. But I know enough to not assume they are all like that, and because one is "out there" in their regular lives does not mean they will be one of those who expect something to fall out of the sky and make it all good with their horse. But *in general* when you find a PNH person who is very devoted to the program, they are also typically involved in other "out there" activities. What you define as "out there" might not be what I define as such.


... when you tell this to the cowboys. :)

[arena run]

I do a 'new posts' search and don't always check to see what board the thread is in which I'm reading at the time. This Parelli thread caught my attention because it is fairly open-minded and the folks who are supporting NH (not necessarily Parelli personally) aren't being bashed or ridiculed to the extent that was managed on the last NH discussion I was part of. :) So I check to see what forum it's on and find the it on off course. I find it very interesting that this thread, while speaking to the same topic, has formed a completely different 'life' than the dressage forum thread had. sylvia

[JB]

fourh mom (duh, I JUST now figured out what your name means :lol: :lol:), you know, I was thinking about that the other day too, how this thread has gone vs how the Dressage and H/J threads tend to go. Hmmm, how interesting :cool:

[arena run]

LOL One forum I visited a while back most folks called me Fourth Mom. LOL :) sylvia

[Roosevelt]

Lighten up, or you'll get the "carrot stick."

[LMH]

Lighten up, or you'll get the "carrot stick."

Oh please not ANOTHER Willem wannabe...