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canyonoak
Sep. 6, 2007, 12:31 PM
http://www.hippodata.de/news_popup.php?ID=4905


am sure others can translate correctly.

She may not go near horses for 2 years,and all horses removed from her care.

slc2
Sep. 6, 2007, 01:23 PM
translation: cheers!

ToN Farm
Sep. 6, 2007, 03:01 PM
Amazing that her identity hasn't been leaked yet.

Mozart
Sep. 6, 2007, 03:57 PM
She also got 180 days in jail. Goodness, you would have to cut a horse's head off with a butter knife to get that here. No mention of what she did (at least not that I could decipher).

Tanyanoel
Sep. 6, 2007, 04:30 PM
The district court Plön has in the case of the Dressurreiterin Christine W. announced a judgement. The Ausbilderin, which a further procedure in north first EDT threatens, was condemned because of cruelty to animals in three cases to 180 daily rates A 35 euro and received an attitude prohibition for two years. The cases negotiated occurred on the property Nehmten, on the W. had occasionally taken quarter. A further process expects Christine W. in north first EDT, after horse owners and riders documented and made the work of the Dressurausbilderin public by photo and video. The office for order north first EDT gave thereupon an approximation and an attitude prohibition. Four of Christine of the W. ridden horses were quartered in the meantime by the owner on a riding site in Negernbötel. The horse haven federation Schleswig-Holstein has the chief Andrea H. immediately referred to it, that for Christine W. an approximation and an attitude prohibition exist are switched on, the federation then in addition its training and training course activity approach the office for order to the horses immediately on the plant in Negernbötel will adjust.

spotted mustang
Sep. 6, 2007, 04:54 PM
She also got 180 days in jail. Goodness, you would have to cut a horse's head off with a butter knife to get that here. No mention of what she did (at least not that I could decipher).


I don't think she went to jail. It says she was sentenced to paying 180 "Tagessaetze" (daily payments?) of 35 Euros, so a 6300 Euro fine.
I wonder what she did to the poor horses...

Moll
Sep. 6, 2007, 05:01 PM
Her identity has been discussed on several German BB:s: PM me for the name. Apparently she beat the horse, pulled his nose to her knee, hit him over the head etc. Good for Germany, giving her a sentence that should hurt a bit - in the purse.

Mozart
Sep. 6, 2007, 05:03 PM
I don't think she went to jail. It says she was sentenced to paying 180 "Tagessaetze" (daily payments?) of 35 Euros, so a 6300 Euro fine.
I wonder what she did to the poor horses...

Ah, yes I think that does make more sense (re translation). I guess I got over-excited at the thought of a court actually taking animal abuse seriously.....

spotted mustang
Sep. 6, 2007, 05:13 PM
Well, after reading all this, maybe she should be in jail:

http://www.kn-online.de/artikel/2203707/Martyrium_im_Training%3F.htm

Some descriptions of the stuff she did; maybe someone else can translate?

Sabine
Sep. 6, 2007, 05:34 PM
I could translate but I feel like throwing up- she should be in jail and she should have to work the rest of her life in a menial position...what a pig!

class
Sep. 6, 2007, 05:44 PM
why is her last name being kept a secret anyway?

slc2
Sep. 6, 2007, 05:58 PM
one of the schokemuhle bros was fined over 30,000 some years ago for poling at home, fines like that are not unusual at all over there.

dutchmike
Sep. 6, 2007, 06:10 PM
one of the schokemuhle bros was fined over 30,000 some years ago for poling at home, fines like that are not unusual at all over there.


that was paul;)

Fallbrook
Sep. 6, 2007, 06:11 PM
Well, after reading all this, maybe she should be in jail:

http://www.kn-online.de/artikel/2203707/Martyrium_im_Training%3F.htm

Some descriptions of the stuff she did; maybe someone else can translate?

I ran it through babelfish - not complete but you can get the point.

Martyrium in training?

Plön - sharp Sporen inconsiderately into the flanks
rammed, blows on bodies and head, Sporenstiche approximately
around the eyes of the horses: Which witnesses yesterday before that
Plöner district court against Dressurreiterin Christine W. (59)
and their training methods stated, left those
Spectator schaudern. Up to the late summer 2006
she worked on a property in the circle Plön.
The professional horsewoman is accused because of heavier
Abusing several training horses. On six
Cases at the 11. and 12 July as well as on 5 August 2006
refer the reproaches of the cruelty to animals. It is that
Animals „from rawness substantial pain and longer
continuous substantial suffering “added.
It was indicated by other inhabitants of the property,
like two animal nurses, a Beiköchin, a gardner
state as witnesses.
Vigorously the large, slim woman with two enters
Defenders the hall. She wants to express herself, her gives oneself
leave. „I cannot explain myself the reproaches, I am
speechless “, it says, vibrated self-confidently the blond
Hair. „I love my horses. “
A Stute is it with whip blows also on the head
traktiert that an ear tore. At the whole body
the horse is to have had dents. The fox
„Wimbledon “is to have been issued it still more badly. Loud
Accusation became it on one day four hours badly
adjusted: Extremely out-bind - the head also
Schlaufzügeln nearly pulled on the chest - is its
Horsewoman it extremely brutally sharply serrated Sporen
gave. Finally is it it fixed in a corner
have. A horse nurse should it on instruction of
down with the whip, means it strikes in the accusation.
„This pig does not want to bend itself, to that is
debt “, has the Trainerin after the words of the young
Mrs. the torture justifies. „That become I today still
crack. “It reported, the abusing would have themselves
continued on the next day, when the animal already lahmte.
At the following night into the animal hospital in-supplied
„Wimbledon “has directly after training from that
Muzzle bled and was hurt at the flanks,
it speaks.
„So similar treatments got all horses, which was
completely normally. The animals knew at the place and in that
Does not resound at all, which they should make “, one confirms
other witness. A further reported, the Trainerin has
all horses in training in such a way out-bind, „that them none
Chance had to move still forward. “
In the determination documents there are photos of substantial
Injuries at head and bodies of „Wimbledon “, those
Animal nurses secretly directly after training
to have made are. As the accused the wounds
to explain is, comes it into coming to a hold. For some
Injuries she finds to explanations of harmless kind,
it only the head vibrates others. Also at the sight of the
doubly broken Zaumzeugs must it after one
Explanation look for. „You bite already times at the chain,
if them is boring. “
The process becomes on Monday, 27 August, at 10 o'clock in
District court Plön continued.
By Cornelia Mueller

snoopy
Sep. 6, 2007, 06:30 PM
I could translate but I feel like throwing up- she should be in jail and she should have to work the rest of her life in a menial position...what a pig!


After speaking with some friends in germany...trust me...your comments were KIND comparred to the general feeling about this case. This was abuse at its worst!!!:mad::cry:

royal militron
Sep. 6, 2007, 08:48 PM
Makes me sick.

Austin Rider
Sep. 6, 2007, 09:01 PM
There's something about that translation that conveys real horror.

BarbB
Sep. 6, 2007, 09:16 PM
one of the schokemuhle bros was fined over 30,000 some years ago for poling at home, fines like that are not unusual at all over there.


Schockemohle, as in Paul


And on a different note, and one of the reasons I don't read the dressage forum as much as I would like.....

we have someone who could translate but won't - busy throwing up.
we have someone who knows what the German reaction is...trust her, she knows.
we have someone who has seen the name all over the German bbs... but can't cut and paste?
And we have the OP posting an article in a language that most of us can't read....with no translation.

I guess I am just not properly impressed with the in-crowd and I don't get the point of this thread because it certainly isn't to share any information.
:confused:

Thomas_1
Sep. 6, 2007, 09:26 PM
Ah, yes I think that does make more sense (re translation). I guess I got over-excited at the thought of a court actually taking animal abuse seriously.....

Abuse of horses is indeed taken seriously in some countries:


A woman who allowed a pregnant horse to starve to death in sight of 1000 bales of hay has been jailed for breaching her ban on keeping horses.

Delia Stacey of Strachey Close, Tidmarsh, Reading appeared before Guildford Crown Court on Friday 3rd August where she was given a 35 day prison sentence, an extra five year ban and was ordered to pay costs of £2000 for breaching the ban originally imposed on her in May 2006.


Karen Woods of Ashby St Mary, Norfolk has been found guilty of causing unnecessary suffering to five horses in her care.

Ms Woods appeared before Norwich Magistrates Court on Thursday 26th April 2007, where she was given a 10 year ban on keeping animals, a 12 week prison sentence suspended for two years, 150 hours community service and ordered to pay costs of £3,445. (The horses were emaciated)


Mrs Jo Kowalski of Astrea Main Road, Baylham, Ipswich, Suffolk was found guilty of causing suffering to her pony Brambles at Ipswich Magistrates Court. She will be sentenced on Wednesday, 30th August.

This is the second time.


Michelle Doolan of Rutland Road, Tyldesley, Manchester pleaded guilty on 29th September at Wigan Magistrates Court to causing unnecessary suffering to a 3 year old Arab cross colt named Bahir. She was sentenced on 20th October at the same court to a Community Punishment Order of 150 hours, which is to be completed within 12 months. She has been ordered to pay £500 costs, at £10.00 per week, and has been disqualified from keeping any animals for 10 years.

The colt was in poor condition with no water or feed and its owner rarely came to see him.



Clonus Jones, 53 and Rita Jones, 44 of Shelfanger Road, Diss appeared before Thetford Magistrates Court on Monday 9th July, where Clonus Jones was given a 10 year ban, ordered to carry out 240 hours unpaid work and pay £2,500 costs. Rita Jones was given the same disqualification and costs as well as a five month curfew order.

ILPH Field Officer Jonathan (Jacko) Jackson was asked to attend a location off Mission Road in Diss by RSPCA Inspector Dave Mitchell. Together they found the bay stallion tethered to a 30ft chain with a canvas collar deeply imbedded in its neck. The wound was covered in flies and there was a strong smell of infection. It had also been attacked by another stallion and had open cuts on both sides of its body. It was estimated that the horse had been suffering for at least seven days.



Thursday 1 July, at Bodmin Magistrates Court, Caroline Courtney Wiles of St Clether, Cornwall was found guilty of causing unnecessary suffering to Homer, a horse in her possession.

Courtney Wiles, of Lower Trevithiac Farm, St Clether, was sentenced to a 15 year ban on keeping horses, fined £250 and ordered to pay £1,916 towards the ILPH and the RSPCA costs.

Field Officer Jeff Herrington says, “We are delighted with the 15 year ban, this surely sends out a strong and clear deterrent message to people neglecting their horses and ponies, that the Courts treat such cases extremely seriously. Other than Courtney Wiles’ 15 year ban the only good thing to come out of the case is that Homer will have a safe and secure future for the rest of his life in ILPH ownership.”

In the UK the Animal Welfare Act received Royal Assent and came into force on 6th April.

This Act makes the owners and keepers of horses legally responsible for their horse’s welfare and may well be the single most important piece of legislation to protect since the Protection of Animals Act.

It also means that owners and keepers of horses will have a legal duty to properly care for their animals and welfare organsations will be able to respond more positively to reported incidents of neglect. This is quite different to having to wait until an act of cruelty of suffering has occurred and means that action can be taken at earlier stage and without having to wait for huge weight loss, distress, injuries or untrimmed feet have been proven to a higher burden of proof.

Under the new act the person responsible for the horse has to meet its basic welfare needs, offering a proper diet, water and somewhere suitable to live and this Act is so designed that its to prevent suffering because of ignorance. In future causing unnecessary suffering with badly fitting tack or harnesss could render the owner up to 51 weeks in prison, a fine up to £20,000 or both.

ToN Farm
Sep. 6, 2007, 09:41 PM
This article I found said a horse had to be put down.



German Press Agency/regioline of 06.09.2007

Cruelty to animals: Pferdetrainerin to 6300 euro fine condemns

Plön (German Press Agency/lno) - the district court Plön condemned a Pferdetrainerin because of abusing of Dressurpferden on Thursday to 6300 euro fine and a two-year animal husbandry prohibition. The court saw it as proven on that the 59-Jährige - even an experienced horsewoman - in the summer traktiert in such a way 2006 on an equestrian farm with Plön of horses with switch and sharp edged Sporen that they bled and lahmten. An animal had had to be put to sleep. The accusation had required a probation sentence after four days hearing of evidence for “raw cruelty to animals” additionally of six months, demanded the defense acquietal.

flyingchange
Sep. 6, 2007, 09:44 PM
BarbB -

Right on.

Carol Ames
Sep. 6, 2007, 10:03 PM
It was a girl groom that turned her in:yes:, even took photos of poor Wimbledonn! Among other charges of abuse are riding one in draw reins, nose to chest for several ) 4)hours:eek:, whip marks on the neck, and rump, marks from sharpened rowel s-spurs. Wimbledon was somehow stood in a corner, and beaten from underneath; explanation "he was A PIG :no:, refused to bend; he broughtthis punishment on himself':(; He was to have beenworked the next day, but, bbecauseHE WAS ALREADY LAME, He was taken to ttheveterinary clinic; ; another horse was said to come in bleeding rom the mouth; :mad:
That's all I remember, but, I will go back and see what I missed .

Carol Ames
Sep. 6, 2007, 10:23 PM
Was heisst zaumzeugen?

BarbB
Sep. 6, 2007, 10:24 PM
thank you Carol, did you get a name? Was this a professional trainer?
Clients horses? her horses? Previous complaints? Good for the groom! Brave of her.
Sounds like maybe this was business as usual, that's seems to be the case by the time they are taking out their frustrations on the animals and rationalizing that the animal caused this.

What was the 2 year part? Jail? probation? suspension from the horse org?

YogaFriend
Sep. 6, 2007, 10:26 PM
She also got 180 days in jail. Goodness, you would have to cut a horse's head off with a butter knife to get that here. No mention of what she did (at least not that I could decipher).

At least in Virginia, it is a felony to abuse animals. I believe you can get up to 20 years in jail.

snoopy
Sep. 6, 2007, 10:35 PM
Schockemohle, as in Paul


And on a different note, and one of the reasons I don't read the dressage forum as much as I would like.....

we have someone who could translate but won't - busy throwing up.
we have someone who knows what the German reaction is...trust her, she knows.
we have someone who has seen the name all over the German bbs... but can't cut and paste?
And we have the OP posting an article in a language that most of us can't read....with no translation.

I guess I am just not properly impressed with the in-crowd and I don't get the point of this thread because it certainly isn't to share any information.
:confused:



perhaps barb you might want to contact the groom who turned her in, the rider who commited the offences, etc because what little info you have received is not good enough for you. You must be terribly disappointed to have come over to the dressage board and not be a part of the in crowd.

Reiter
Sep. 6, 2007, 10:44 PM
Was heisst zaumzeugen?

Zaumzeug = Bridle

Reiter
Sep. 6, 2007, 10:47 PM
What was the 2 year part? Jail? probation? suspension from the horse org?

She can't have any horses for 2 years!
That should have been a life sentence!

canwong
Sep. 6, 2007, 11:00 PM
It is about time to impose tough sentencing with heavy penalties to send clear message, otherwise we will keep hearing about cruelty done to animals, horses included.

The FEI penalty for the rider of Le Samurai is clearly not heavy enough to make riders think twice about acting irresponsibly. Le Samurai lost his life and the rider got off with a mere 2 months of suspension. Come on FEI !!! Get serious and get tough.

BarbB
Sep. 6, 2007, 11:09 PM
She can't have any horses for 2 years!
That should have been a life sentence!

How on earth will they enforce that?
That's a serious question. You can stop someone from showing, from registering horses, from selling (by penalizing the buyers), from training if you are very very vigilant and aggressive. But how can you keep someone from owning a horse? Will they really pursue and enforce this?
It would be nice to think so, but what an enforcement nightmare.

canyonoak
Sep. 7, 2007, 12:16 AM
BarbB--I could not find the original thread on this woman, where there was a fair amount of translation of charges,etc.
if you want her real name, PM me.

I have no idea why no one writes her last name, when just about everyone seems to know who it is, but the reports from Germany refer to her only as Christine W, so I think everyone else feels they better do the same.

I did not translate because my computer had a problem and had been freezing, but I thought the information was worth posting.

I figured anyone interested enough could click the link and use babelfish, which is what I did to get a rough translation.

This case did not bother or affect me much, until I started reading the actual charges.

Animals attract many people for many reasons.
the dark,flip side of attraction to animals is that animals cannot speak or really identify abusers.

I am glad that in this case, the horses were able to find human beings willing to speak on their behalf.

sherie
Sep. 7, 2007, 12:55 AM
T first I as going to write " well what was she supposed to do? The pig wouldn't bend!" But this situation is so grotesque there is absolutely no room for levity here. My heart bleeds for these animals that are entrusted in our care. The overt cruelty such as this and the lesser but more prolongued cruelty of spur holes that have scabbed over so many times they become permanent, horses in draw reins day after day, struggling to please and somehow find their balance. I could go on and on but it hurts too much.

Carol Ames
Sep. 7, 2007, 12:58 AM
Barb B,

Her name was not given, she wasa 59 year old professional slender but, tall, oh, and a blonde:lol:! She was a professional, these were horses sent to her to train

Sabine
Sep. 7, 2007, 01:33 AM
how bout this for starters...


http://www3.ndr.de/ndrtv_pages_video/0,,SPM14440_VID4195208_TYPreallow_LOCint,00.html

you have to able to understand German though...this is from the Northern German TV station...
her name is Christine Wels- it's all over the German TV stations and the internet...not a secret anymore.

mbm
Sep. 7, 2007, 01:44 AM
i think it is very very sad that there are folks that sent their horses to her and bought into her abuse.

i wil admit to cheering on the horse in the vid - i wanted him to buck her off or rear over on top of her.

i hope she NEVER touches anouther horse again. ever. :(

slc2
Sep. 7, 2007, 07:14 AM
Several of the british cases listed up there are multiple offenses, so it doesn't portray a perfect system. there is no really perfect system for uniformly enforcing humane animal treatment as it's impossible for workers to always be everywhere and see everything....but it sure as heck is a good start. in the USA, i don't know what makes our laws so gutless - lack of money, lack of training in horse welfare (like trimming feet) for the people investigating, hangovers from traditional chattel laws, or just inertia. i suspect all are factors.

"we have someone who could translate but won't - busy throwing up.

-- the translations that are there are just plugins from Babelfish, as i got the same translation word for word from running the same paragraph thru.

--to get a real idea of what was written, it's really necessary to have a better translation. word choice makes a big difference, such as the difference between using the words 'think' vs 'assume', for example.

we have someone who knows what the German reaction is...trust her, she knows.

-- and why do you think she didn't say more?

we have someone who has seen the name all over the German bbs... but can't cut and paste?

-- and why do you think she won't do that?

And we have the OP posting an article in a language that most of us can't read....with no translation.

-- and why do you think they did that? maybe because someone here might translate it?

I guess I am just not properly impressed with the in-crowd

--i guess that if it makes someone an 'incrowd' i really don't see how.

--if it's so insulting to have something here in a language one doesn't read, one could learn the language, and henceforth be less upset. there is so much press about dressage in german that i wish i had the time to learn it better.

and I don't get the point of this thread because it certainly isn't to share any information. "

-- and why would you think people might not post the persons name?

-- actually, i'm not sure i understand people's caution in this. it's pretty well publicly known, just not here.

-- in a way i suppose it's possible that bringing a german article here about abuse is 'trying to be an incrowd'....i suppose. but i also find here in the USA we have an increasingly resentful attitude about anything published in another language. getting a little xenophobic maybe.

-- what i do find disturbing is that the sins of others so far away attract so much more attention than the animal abuse cases close to home. for example, this much discussed case aside, do you know what people in your county have been convicted of animal abuse? do you know the details or how they were sentenced? i bet most people don't. i'll never understand why if a crime is committed in another country, it is so much more fascinating and draws so much more comment than abuse right in your own neighborhood.

Thomas_1
Sep. 7, 2007, 07:15 AM
How on earth will they enforce that?
That's a serious question. You can stop someone from showing, from registering horses, from selling (by penalizing the buyers), from training if you are very very vigilant and aggressive. But how can you keep someone from owning a horse? Will they really pursue and enforce this?
It would be nice to think so, but what an enforcement nightmare. Well don't forget we have a system of passporting all equids in the European Community.

Hence all horses have to have their owner details registered with a licencing authority.

If you look at my earlier posting, you'll see that one of the convictions was for a breach of an order preventing ownership.

A woman who allowed a pregnant horse to starve to death in sight of 1000 bales of hay has been jailed for breaching her ban on keeping horses.

Delia Stacey of Strachey Close, Tidmarsh, Reading appeared before Guildford Crown Court on Friday 3rd August where she was given a 35 day prison sentence, an extra five year ban and was ordered to pay costs of £2000 for breaching the ban originally imposed on her in May.

BarbB
Sep. 7, 2007, 09:57 AM
....i suppose. but i also find here in the USA we have an increasingly resentful attitude about anything published in another language. getting a little xenophobic maybe.


slc,
COTH, the magazine, is published in the US in English - or a variation thereof. This board is an offshoot of the magazine. 99.9% or thereabouts of the posts on these forums are in English. Discussion is in English. I really don't think that questioning why someone would start a thread by posting an article that is NOT in English and failing to provide a translation is xenophobic. YOU may be xenophobic, I don't know. I certainly am not.

Babelfish is NOT useful in translating complex sentences, example:

"The horse haven federation Schleswig-Holstein has the chief Andrea H. immediately referred to it, that for Christine W. an approximation and an attitude prohibition exist are switched on, the federation then in addition its training and training course activity approach the office for order to the horses immediately on the plant in Negernbötel will adjust."

STF
Sep. 7, 2007, 10:29 AM
The "trainer" needs to be alone with me in a room for about 10 min and let me let her feel what that poor horse felt while she was beating it and could not get away from her in a closed area.
:(

slc2
Sep. 7, 2007, 12:05 PM
COTH, the magazine, is published in the US in English - or a variation thereof. This board is an offshoot of the magazine. 99.9% or thereabouts of the posts on these forums are in English. Discussion is in English

"And if English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me"

ah....so being an 'offshoot' of the magazine means no one can post something in any other language? Spare me.

Look, I'm all sympathy for people who feel left out when something dressage-related comes out in another language, but if it bothers you THAT much - go to Berlitz. you aren't going to make everyone here always post in English any more than you're going to force the whole world to speak english!

There is nothing that requires people to post in English, or to hire a translator before posting a clipping. In fact, since the people that are members on this board speak many different languages, it is far easier to post something in a foreign language and someone here will be able to translate it.

There is no bulletin board rule that the discussions must be in English, and there is no rule here that the clippings must be in English; in fact, since so much activity on dressage is in Europe, and the press in Europe is so huge on dressage, and since many of the best books are not available in English or wholly in English, it is pretty much a given that a certain percentage of clippings would be in Dutch, German, French, Finnish, Russian, etc.

BarbB
Sep. 7, 2007, 12:17 PM
In fact, since the people that are members on this board speak many different languages, it is far easier to post something in a foreign language and someone here will be able to translate it.


Oh, excellent, but I somehow missed your translation and can't seem to find it...would you mind reposting it here?

Thomas_1
Sep. 7, 2007, 12:43 PM
"And if English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me" You are joking, right? I think you'll find that they didn't speak English in Jerusalem!


Look, I'm all sympathy for people who feel left out when something dressage-related comes out in another language, but if it bothers you THAT much - go to Berlitz. you aren't going to make everyone here always post in English any more than you're going to force the whole world to speak english! Don't be so pompous! If indeed you can speak another language, the forum is an American forum and hence (arguably :winkgrin:) English is the language of communication.


There is nothing that requires people to post in English, or to hire a translator before posting a clipping. In fact, since the people that are members on this board speak many different languages, it is far easier to post something in a foreign language and someone here will be able to translate it. Hang on and I'll just go hire a translater to help with getting that to make sense in English! What a pillock! And in a spirit of generousity I'll let you have a link to help you to translate from English to American:

http://english2american.com/dictionary/p.html


There is no bulletin board rule that the discussions must be in English, and there is no rule here that the clippings must be in English; in fact, since so much activity on dressage is in Europe, and the press in Europe is so huge on dressage, and since many of the best books are not available in English or wholly in English, it is pretty much a given that a certain percentage of clippings would be in Dutch, German, French, Finnish, Russian, etc. Erm you sound as knowledgeable as George Bush when it comes to international geography and culture!!!

You maybe didn't realise but ENGLAND is in EUROPE!! duhhhh

slc2
Sep. 7, 2007, 12:47 PM
weren't you planning on ignoring me forever and ever? :lol:

Moll
Sep. 7, 2007, 04:41 PM
we have someone who has seen the name all over the German bbs... but can't cut and paste?

I'll cut and paste it into a PM if you ask me to. I'm in Germany and would prefer not to break any laws here.

sm
Sep. 7, 2007, 05:11 PM
no breaking rules here: the video of it may still be on UDBB.

we discussed this topic back in July:
Coth thread name, started July 31st: "St Georg magazine video"
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/search.php?searchid=1377260&pp=25&page=4

St Georg recieved a video of the abuse, and it used to be posted online.
Anyway, St Georg first broke the news July 7th
http://www.st-georg-shop.de/index.php?http://cm.jahr-tsv.de/st-georg/internet/basics/startseite/news.php?dbase=&i_anzeige=1339&archiv=&archivname=&ab=0#pos1

canyonoak
Sep. 7, 2007, 05:14 PM
The important thing here, I think, is that someone abused an animal and that someone was caught and brought to trial and sentenced.

More germane, that someone was mistreating a horse.
Even more germane, that someone was abusing a DRESSAGE horse.

To the person who asked why the upset over this particular horse--I think because it is a dressage horse. I think because this woman comes from a family of (fairly) well-known horse trainers.

Frankly, if I come across documented abuse to a dressage horse some place else--or esp. in the Inuted State-- I will post that on the BB.

Although we all know harsh trainers and riders and owners, I honestly have seen very little around here in recent times that compares to this particular case of abuse.

Im not saying Ive never seen anything like it, because I have. Just not since I joined this BB.

SO-- I hope good comes out of this. I hope each and every person remembers to be the eyes, to speak up for what they see and hear.

I'm going to try.

Carol Ames
Sep. 7, 2007, 05:18 PM
:confused:mbm What video was this?cheering on the horse in the vid - i wanted him to buck her off or rear over on top of her.

sm
Sep. 7, 2007, 05:20 PM
Oh dear lord in heaven, we are about to be swamped with links to Rollkur videos. Abandon Thread. Repeat, Abandon Thread. It's going to get ugly:


Although we all know harsh trainers and riders and owners, I honestly have seen very little around here in recent times that compares to this particular case of abuse.


I hope so too, we can thank internet technology and video cams on making it easy to report:


SO-- I hope good comes out of this. I hope each and every person remembers to be the eyes, to speak up for what they see and hear.

Dalfan
Sep. 7, 2007, 05:46 PM
Oh dear lord in heaven, we are about to be swamped with links to Rollkur videos.

She was talking about the vid of the rider schooling the horse and getting rough with him. The horse was bucking hoping to get her off. There is/was a link to the short vid.

I was sorely tempted to post a RK vid to discuss the differences/similarities of the "bending" this rider was using. Looked familiar to me.:)

Here it is;http://www3.ndr.de/ndrtv_pages_video/0,,SPM14440_VID4195208_TYPreallow_LOCint,00.html

ToN Farm
Sep. 7, 2007, 07:37 PM
Dalfan, what is the history behind the video link that you just provided?

I don't see 'abuse' at all on that video. What it looks like to me is a horse that wants to balk and rear and she is overbending and circling in order to prevent that.

Dalfan
Sep. 7, 2007, 07:51 PM
Sabine provided the link in an earlier post in this thread. Post #34. It's just a short clip, so not capturing all that went on.

Carol Ames
Sep. 8, 2007, 01:22 AM
Apparently she was charged with 5 counts of animal cruelty:no::mad:, and found guilty on three:yes::(:mad:

Carol Ames
Sep. 8, 2007, 02:04 AM
In the COTH? Will we read about this in the COTH for the benefit of those DQs who claim that a dressage horse would never be abused like those inother disciplines are.:mad:

Carol Ames
Sep. 8, 2007, 02:05 AM
[quote=Carol Ames;2671106]In the COTH? Will we read about this in the COTH for the benefit of those DQs who claim that a dressage horse would never be abused like those inother disciplines are.:mad:?

WhatzUp
Sep. 8, 2007, 02:06 AM
It is about time to impose tough sentencing with heavy penalties to send clear message, otherwise we will keep hearing about cruelty done to animals, horses included.

The FEI penalty for the rider of Le Samurai is clearly not heavy enough to make riders think twice about acting irresponsibly. Le Samurai lost his life and the rider got off with a mere 2 months of suspension. Come on FEI !!! Get serious and get tough.

AGREED.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

fullmoon fever
Sep. 8, 2007, 02:15 PM
slc2 - there is so much press about dressage in german that i wish i had the time to learn it better.

Have you finished butchering English?

mbm
Sep. 8, 2007, 02:24 PM
Dalfan, what is the history behind the video link that you just provided?

I don't see 'abuse' at all on that video. What it looks like to me is a horse that wants to balk and rear and she is overbending and circling in order to prevent that.

??

it is pretty clear that in that vid she is NOT allowing the horse a way out.... the horse is reacting to being tormented. the rider is being pretty brutal with her spurs.... and if you read what she is being charged with - i think it is fairly safe to assume that she is intentionally brutalizing this horse.

if you reprimand a horse they MUST have an exit that allows them to respond correctly.

From what i saw - none was there. and, since i assume that what was posted in the vid was the *least* of the offenses, i stand by my previous comment that i was cheering the horse on and hoped he got her off.

ToN Farm
Sep. 8, 2007, 03:33 PM
MBM, I don't think the video is clear enough to see what is going on with the spur, whip, or anything else. Why would they put the mildest version out to see? Why not show the worst? If she did indeed do abusive things to the horse, then they should throw the book at her. I tend to be just a wee bit suspicious if the group behind these charges is the same one that is on the non-RK campaign.

slc2
Sep. 8, 2007, 03:41 PM
no fullmoon,but i'm sure if i keep reading your posts, i'll find many more examples of butchered english to follow :)

dutchmike
Sep. 8, 2007, 05:31 PM
That video is crap IMO it isn't the way I would handle it, however I have seen a lot worse by some riders and some other disciplines.

mbm
Sep. 8, 2007, 07:16 PM
MBM, I don't think the video is clear enough to see what is going on with the spur, whip, or anything else. Why would they put the mildest version out to see? Why not show the worst? If she did indeed do abusive things to the horse, then they should throw the book at her. I tend to be just a wee bit suspicious if the group behind these charges is the same one that is on the non-RK campaign.

yeah, i dont know really anything except what has been posted here and other boards - that what she was charged with and found guilty of; was brutal treatment of horses... what i *saw* in the vid was brutal riding IMO - to me it doesn't matter who is doing it and what discipline.... the horse clearly had no way out/no way to do the correct thing..... to me that is abusive and really bad riding.

as for who is behind this... that is a strange comment to make.... who cares who is behind *it* (what ever that is) as long as someone who is cruel to a horse is outed and punished?

and, regarding the lack of "severity" of the vid..... since the press was reluctant to even mention her name, and since other countries have rules about presenting evidence before a person can be tried, perhaps there is a reason for what was published? i dont know.....

ToN Farm
Sep. 8, 2007, 07:43 PM
"IT" is the campaign by St. Georg magazine, Substainable Dressage, Allege Ideal, and few of the other groups on a mission to end hyperflexion. I wouldn't put it past them to set up some sort of 'sting' to nab a scapegoat since they can't get to their most desired targets. I also don't favor hidden cameras and other sneaky ways to entrap someone.

Sabine
Sep. 8, 2007, 07:53 PM
MBM, I don't think the video is clear enough to see what is going on with the spur, whip, or anything else. Why would they put the mildest version out to see? Why not show the worst? If she did indeed do abusive things to the horse, then they should throw the book at her. I tend to be just a wee bit suspicious if the group behind these charges is the same one that is on the non-RK campaign.

TonN- I am too lazy and too disgusted to painstakingly translate every detail. The video I posted is the only one that is currently out- the others are part of the Atty of State case against her and therefore not available to the public. The lady has been accused repeatedly- it reads like an alcoholic's rap sheet- except she has gotten off easy before. Now - there are two different series of cases documented and reported- I actually spoke to one of the grooms who worked for her and has helped document the cases. One horse died in her care.
Several received massive injuries. The real problem was the continuous maltreatment of not her own- but quite a few training horses that people paid her training for.
In Germany there is a big hesitation to accuse someone of abusive training and even her case had been thrown out or ended in a warning before. Now they have her in two different counties. This is real, not a political witch hunt and had nothing to do with the do-gooders that have a bone to pick with rollkur people. When horses regularly bleed from the sides and the mouth- it is a whole different story.

Hope this clarifies your concerns. :)!

snoopy
Sep. 8, 2007, 08:13 PM
I also don't favor hidden cameras and other sneaky ways to entrap someone.



Sometimes this is the only way to document what is being done. There needs to be proof to back someone's claim. And since horses cannot "speak" to the local authorities about abuse, it is up to us to do so and to be able to prove the allegation. I do not see this as entrapment. This is documentation of alleged continuous daily practices. Entrapment IMO is "enticing" someone to do something wrong..she did wrong with no help from anyone else.

Goo
Sep. 8, 2007, 09:32 PM
"IT" is the campaign by St. Georg magazine, Substainable Dressage, Allege Ideal, and few of the other groups on a mission to end hyperflexion. I wouldn't put it past them to set up some sort of 'sting' to nab a scapegoat since they can't get to their most desired targets.


Accusing Allege-Ideal of this is dirty, IMO. I have met Colonel Carde in person, and you would never find anyone who is more of a gentleman than he is. Yes, he does have strong opinions on hyperflexion, but I am sure he would be horrified at the imaginary conniving "plot" you describe.

I rode for 3 years with a trainer who had done a bunch (8 or so) of 4-day clinics with Col. Carde. This trainer has mostly a Schultheis/Zeilinger background. I actually asked him once which riders in the show ring today are Col. Carde's favorites, and he looked at me with shock and said "He would never name names, even of riders he liked – he is much too polite!"

mbm
Sep. 8, 2007, 11:51 PM
[QUOTE=ToN Farm;2671796]"IT" is the campaign by St. Georg magazine, Substainable Dressage, Allege Ideal, and few of the other groups on a mission to end hyperflexion. I wouldn't put it past them to set up some sort of 'sting' to nab a scapegoat since they can't get to their most desired targets. I also don't favor hidden cameras and other sneaky ways to entrap someone.

wow.

re: the videos.... in this day and age - i think it is fair to say - you have to assume that every person has at *least* a camera and possibly a video..... (ie cell phones etc) no matter where you are of what you are doing......

and i didnt get that that vid was a "hidden" camera... looked to be a regular vid to me.....

as for entrapment : taping someone abusing an animal is not entrapment. entrapment would be offering an animal to abuse, offering to help abuse, etc etc.

outing crimes like this should be *applauded* - not talked about like it was some conspiracy theory .

slc2
Sep. 8, 2007, 11:57 PM
Not really. You could startle a horse, then film the rider attempting to turn and stop the horse, you could give the horse medication before the rider rides, or just wait for a day when the horse is completely rambunctious and being naughty - pick just about any horse show and any young horse, and you're bound to see some poor idiot having to turn the horse and get him into a tight circle, i don't know what else a rider can do when a horse is running away, trying to throw him, or pulling the rider out of the saddle as he runs sideways.

Most people can't tell the difference between a brief film showing a rider attempting to circle and stop a horse, and some one who simply loses their temper and acts like a damned fool.

The thing that the anti rollkur fanatics miss is that rollkur has nothing to do with abuse, in the sense that people whip, spur, punish and lose their tempers with the horses without ever being a rollkur user. you can take a bad picture of anyone riding if you wait long enough - i have a pic of kyra kyrkland standing up in the stirrups, hauling on the reins, her spurs buried in the horse's side, the horse's mouth gaping open. guess what. the horse bolted. what do you expect her to do. she is a human being, not a god, anyone can get out of position and anyone can have a struggle with a horse. i have a pic of klimke's horse his nose stuck straight out, the horse is falling over on his side in the warmup and he's struggling to stay onboard and no, it's not pretty. s*** happens. horses 'resist' during rollkur, but they also resist during every other kind of training as well. they just are not robots.

losing one's temper while riding is not the private property of the rollkur trainers. years ago we had a trainer in the area that was incredibly abusive, people even asked him to stop lessons (he got his students to do it to, and convinced them they needed to to win). our horses ran out of the ring when they saw him - they remembered him. we couldn't warm them up with him. the horses would have no part of it.

i have learned one thing. nearly anyone can, on occasion, lose their temper while riding. but when it becomes a habit, a way of dealing with everything, i truly believe there is something mentally wrong with that person. no, not something so simple as 'an inferiority complex' or any other pap answer....anger is a very complex phenomenon and what makes each person lose it is different.

years ago the 'warming up in aachen' tapes with carol lavel include carol lambasting a rider for punishing a horse with rough spur and whip, and carol explains how not only is it cruel but it's also ridiculous - a horse cannot perform well for a judge after being treated like that. she talks about 'making corrections you can take into the ring'. this is not a matter of just being mild and ignoring problems with the horse's performance, it is nowhere near that simple. it's a matter of giving the horse a clear way to respond so that the correction has a start and a finish and a reason and has some sort of logic to it.

and it becomes more and more clear that the people who lose their tempers with their horses are not only being abusive, they are also ruining any chance they have of scoring well. horses simply do not score as well as they might otherwise when they are treated so horribly.

Moll
Sep. 9, 2007, 04:48 AM
"IT" is the campaign by St. Georg magazine, Substainable Dressage, Allege Ideal, and few of the other groups on a mission to end hyperflexion. I wouldn't put it past them to set up some sort of 'sting' to nab a scapegoat since they can't get to their most desired targets. I also don't favor hidden cameras and other sneaky ways to entrap someone.

...

If she did indeed do abusive things to the horse, then they should throw the book at her.


I hope you were - well, tired and emotional when writing this. How anybody can object to a person cruelly abusing a horse being "outed" and convicted is beyond me. And in case you missed it, they did convict her.

As somebody else said, using a video camera to film a crime is not entrapment. Nobody forced this woman to beat her horses.

This is not a case of one rider losing her temper once.

Moll
Sep. 9, 2007, 05:09 AM
Here's a rough translation of the ST Georg article:


The case in the district court in Plön against the dressage rider Christine W (59) was finished yesterday. The former World Cup rider was charged with five counts of animal cruelty and was convicted on three counts.

During the four days in court the witnesses described the drastic training methods the woman had used. Blows to the horses head and body, wounds from the spurs, bloody double bits. Even the vet of the Wahlstedt animal hospital, who tried to make Christine W. appear in as positive a light as possible, had to admit that there were remarkably many eye injuries in her stable.

The court proceedings resembled a bad TV soap opera. The calm and sober public prosecutor against the defendant's lawyer, who with theatrical gestures accused the witnesses to be lying or prepared. The public prosecutor demanded six months imprisonment and 4000 euros in fines. The judge decided there would be a fine of 180 x 35 euros as well as a two year ban on any handling of animals. After that the dressage riders will be allowed to handle horses again under proper official supervision

This case was only about the crimes committed in the summer of 2006. Christine W. then was provisionally forbidden to work with animals and she broke the prohibition several times. This was the reason for the video from spring 2007, which shows her riding for nearly an hour. The images of the horse, continuously beaten with a crop and spurs, was shown in ST Georg. The woman was then kicked out of the FN. The case of cruelty to animals which this video shows is still pending. Unless the verdict is appealed by Friday, the verdict becomes valid.

meupatdoes
Sep. 9, 2007, 10:06 AM
Here's a translations of another article.
I tried to post it earlier but my internet pooped out, so I hope it's not a repeat.

Translation of article:

Martrydom in Training?

Sharp spurs rammed heedlessly into flanks, blows to the body and head, spur marks all around the eyes (!!) of the horses- witnesses were horrified by what witnesses said in a Ploen court about dressage rider Christine W. (59) and her training methods. She worked at a stable in Kreis Ploen until late summer 2006.

The professional rider is accused of severe abuse of several horses in training. The accusations of animal cruelty concern six instances on 11th and 12th July as well as on the 5th of August 2006. (I wasn't really sure if they meant 6 instances each of those days, but I don't think so. The sentence structure wasn't really clear.) She allegedly inflicted significant pain from her roughness as well as significant longer term suffering.

She was accused by other residents of the stable, who spoke out along with two animal caretakers, an assistant chef, and a gardner. The tall, slender woman confidently entered the court with two defenders. She wants to defends herself, but she appears casual. "I can't explain the accusations," she says. "I can't understand." She assuredly shakes her long blonde hair. "I love my horses."

She allegedly beat one mare about the head with a whip, such that one ear ripped. The horse allegedly had welts on her whole body. Apparently it was worse for the chestnut "Wimbledon". According to accusations he was treated brutally for four hours one day: as he was extremely restrained -his head pulled to his chest by drawreins- his rider allegedly spurred him extroardinarily brutally with sharply pointed spurs. Finally, she tied him in a corner. According to the accusation, an animal caretaker was supposed to beat him in the belly upon command.

According to the young woman, the trainer justified the abuse by saying, "This pig doesn't want to bend, it's his own fault. I'll break him today yet." The young woman reports that the abuses continued the next day, when the horse was already lame. Wimbledon, who was brought into the animal hospital the following evening, was bleeding from his mouth and flanks immediately after the training.

"All the horses got similar treatment, it was totally routine. The horses had no idea what to do, either in the barn or in the ring," states one witness. Another witness maintains that the trainer tied down all the horses while training so much that "they had no chance to still go forward."

There are pictures in court documents of Wimbledon's significant injuries to his head and body, that caretakers allegedly took secretly immediately after the training. When the accused was supposed to explain the injuries, she faltered. She finds innocent explanations for some injuries, but for others she just shakes her head. She even has to search for an explanation upon sight of the bridle which is broken in two places. "Well, they will bite the chain sometimes, when they get bored."

The trial will occur Monday, Aug 27 at 10 o clock in court in Ploen.

Original article by Cornelia Mueller

slc2
Sep. 9, 2007, 10:28 AM
i don't trust the media much any more, and i don't trust the internet even more. when individuals use the internet to attack personal targets, i try to limit my rage to cases i see and can verify for myself. st georg magazine, to me is sometimes completely insane, and sometimes very incisive, and it seems so well, so much about personalities and relationships in europe behind the scenes that i don't understand, that i am very cautious in trusting what st georg says, but that's a hole they've dug for themselves. i've talked to quite a few people that take that magazine and its loud claims with more than a grain of salt.

too, everyone's idea about what abuse is is very different. i have a very different definition of what 'cruel' is than the next rider, and his definition of 'cruel' is very different from a third rider's. only the grossest cases wind up being prosecuted...there is a lot that happens that never gets prosecuted that really bothers me.

rcloisonne
Sep. 9, 2007, 10:29 AM
The thing that the anti rollkur fanatics miss is that rollkur has nothing to do with abuse, in the sense that people whip, spur, punish and lose their tempers with the horses without ever being a rollkur user.
The difference, in case you missed it, is that whipping and spurring a horse in a fit of temper is not considered an acceptable FEI training method, as is rollkur. And yes, I do consider rollkur abuse.

But, as we've all seen with the AT judgement, the FEI appears to have little actual concern for the welfare of the horse.

Thomas_1
Sep. 9, 2007, 10:57 AM
The thing that the anti rollkur fanatics miss is that rollkur has nothing to do with abuse, in the sense that people whip, spur, punish and lose their tempers with the horses without ever being a rollkur user. . The thing that those who are anti-rolkur don't miss - aside from spelling it correctly ;) - is that it is abusive and detrimental.

And that's probably one of the reasons why the British Horse Society and the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has been lobbying regulating competition bodies in order to seek a change of attitude to the practice.


losing one's temper while riding is not the private property of the rollkur trainers. years ago we had a trainer in the area that was incredibly abusive, people even asked him to stop lessons (he got his students to do it to, and convinced them they needed to to win). our horses ran out of the ring when they saw him - they remembered him. we couldn't warm them up with him. the horses would have no part of it. Does this make sense to anyone in the context of this posting?


i don't trust the media much any more, and i don't trust the internet even more. Your opinions regarding the media and the internet are interesting but irrelevent.

The salient facts are that the abuse was considered so significant that its the subject of a court case. There's witness evidence corroborated by photographs.


when individuals use the internet to attack personal targets, i try to limit my rage to cases i see and can verify for myself. st georg magazine, to me is sometimes completely insane, and sometimes very incisive, and it seems so well, so much about personalities and relationships in europe behind the scenes that i don't understand, that i am very cautious in trusting what st georg says, but that's a hole they've dug for themselves. i've talked to quite a few people that take that magazine and its loud claims with more than a grain of salt. The fact that you can't understand it doesn't mean it shouldn't be trusted!


too, everyone's idea about what abuse is is very different. i have a very different definition of what 'cruel' is than the next rider, and his definition of 'cruel' is very different from a third rider's. only the grossest cases wind up being prosecuted...there is a lot that happens that never gets prosecuted that really bothers me Perhaps because folks choose to ignore the blindingly obvious. I believe that this posting is talking about sustained systematic abuse which has caused the horse to be marked and injured and unsound. So not whether it was appropriate to mete out a little smack with a riding crop or to dig a spur in temper or frustration or incompetence.


i have learned one thing. Congratulations

slc2
Sep. 9, 2007, 11:17 AM
didn't you promise to ignore me forever? :)

you're twisting around what i said. i am not in favor of rollkur and i'm not saying that a smack of a whip for disobedience is abuse, and i'm not saying this person is innocent.

Thomas_1
Sep. 9, 2007, 11:48 AM
didn't you promise to ignore me forever? :) Heck and lose the entertainment value? ;)

Indeed I don't recall saying I'd ignore you even for a little while. Perhaps your confusion arose when I put to you that it was futile offering you advice in relation to driving. To remind you this is what I actually said


Trust me that was not an attack. It was actually advice for a beginner. But heck you do what you want - just ignore me.


you're twisting around what i said. i am not in favor of rollkur Is it spelt with 2 L's in the USA?

Glad you cleared that up as it wasn't the impression I got from your earlier posting.

ToN Farm
Sep. 9, 2007, 11:49 AM
I wonder. Since this woman supposedly had a history of horse abuse and since there were people observing this abuse on a daily basis, why didn't somebody call the owners of these horses? Didn't the owners ever visit the barn and see the physical evidence on the horses' bodies? Also, what kind of person stands by and watches abuse without at least trying to take some action to stop it? Would any of you just stand there and watch a horse that was tied and getting beaten?

For me, this is kind of like a situation where a person sets off repeated false fire alarms and then when there really is a fire, it is not believed. I am one that is not anti-RK (not pro-RK either) and I don't like the reporting in St.Georg.

As far as her being found guilty, she probably was. But then, as SLC wrote (and it was considered impertinent) there are lots of riders that would be found guilty of abuse if they were videoed and charged. Many people just don't want to get involved in taking action against them.

StrawberryFrosted
Sep. 9, 2007, 12:19 PM
[QUOTE=ToN Farm;2672514]I wonder. Since this woman supposedly had a history of horse abuse and since there were people observing this abuse on a daily basis, why didn't somebody call the owners of these horses? Didn't the owners ever visit the barn and see the physical evidence on the horses' bodies? Also, what kind of person stands by and watches abuse without at least trying to take some action to stop it? Would any of you just stand there and watch a horse that was tied and getting beaten?

I do agree w/ this statement. Where were the owners???:(
I know every bite, nick, and scratch on my horse and I know the day it occured. If my horse had a ear hanging off I would have been notified by barn management the SECOND it happened!

Dalfan
Sep. 9, 2007, 12:55 PM
I wonder. Since this woman supposedly had a history of horse abuse and since there were people observing this abuse on a daily basis, why didn't somebody call the owners of these horses? Didn't the owners ever visit the barn and see the physical evidence on the horses' bodies? Also, what kind of person stands by and watches abuse without at least trying to take some action to stop it? Would any of you just stand there and watch a horse that was tied and getting beaten?

I think I read in one of the articles that she had been accused of abuse before, but always seemed to get off - perhaps because their was no evidence, only he said, she said. The vid was obviously the proof they needed to get the allegations to stick.

slc2
Sep. 9, 2007, 02:37 PM
well, i think we have to assume that there's a lot of information in the case that isn't in the article. there's always a lot more to these cases - heck theree's always a lot more to things that doesn't get into the papers. i know traieners that are horrible that have many customers despite being brutes; the fei, usef, etc can't stop alot of what happens at people's homes. they just can't be everywhere. some aren't truly abusive in the legal sense just rough and abrupt.

Ghazzu
Sep. 9, 2007, 03:19 PM
well, i think we have to assume that there's a lot of information in the case that isn't in the article. there's always a lot more to these cases - heck theree's always a lot more to things that doesn't get into the papers. i know traieners that are horrible that have many customers despite being brutes; the fei, usef, etc can't stop alot of what happens at people's homes. they just can't be everywhere. some aren't truly abusive in the legal sense just rough and abrupt.

OK, I'll bite.
What would you propose to be any possible missing pieces of information that would cast this abuse in a different light and render it acceptable?

Walnut Farm
Sep. 9, 2007, 03:36 PM
That ANYONE will defend the auctions of this woman, making statements about media lies etc, well, the video begs the different!!!

SOMEONE has to speak up for the welfare of the horses. Shame on anyone defending that. They have to be outed and sentenced. No mercy!!

I believe there is a special hell for people who abuse children and animals!:mad:

dutchmike
Sep. 9, 2007, 03:57 PM
So are most of you really blind or just naive ,thinking that abuse is a rare thing at top barns?. IMO what do you think happens behind the closed door sessions?.

Moll
Sep. 9, 2007, 03:58 PM
I wonder. Since this woman supposedly had a history of horse abuse and since there were people observing this abuse on a daily basis, why didn't somebody call the owners of these horses? Didn't the owners ever visit the barn and see the physical evidence on the horses' bodies? Also, what kind of person stands by and watches abuse without at least trying to take some action to stop it? Would any of you just stand there and watch a horse that was tied and getting beaten?

For me, this is kind of like a situation where a person sets off repeated false fire alarms and then when there really is a fire, it is not believed. I am one that is not anti-RK (not pro-RK either) and I don't like the reporting in St.Georg.

As far as her being found guilty, she probably was. But then, as SLC wrote (and it was considered impertinent) there are lots of riders that would be found guilty of abuse if they were videoed and charged. Many people just don't want to get involved in taking action against them.

So which way do you want it? You complain when somebody did take action (videotaped) and then berate people for not taking action? How do you know action wasn't taken? Isn't notifying the police of animal cruelty action?

I've seen horrible things done to horses in the name of sport. Doesn't mean you should close your eyes to it just because worse things are done elsewhere.

And BTW - a person that is disturbed enough to be torturing animals on a regular basis is probably someone you don't just go tap on the shoulder and say "hey, by the way, could you lay off that poor horse?" You may be the next victim yourself.

I cannot believe that SLC and ToN will use the Rollkur debate to try to undermine the seriousness of this case. Or cases, as CW will probably be back in court on the video evidence later.

This makes me sick. One disturbed individual abusing horses is one thing. People trying to spin the case to make it seem less severe another.

Moll
Sep. 9, 2007, 04:00 PM
And to Mike: no, I know abuse is not rare. Just heard how they deal with unruly horses in one particular World Championship rider's stables, and it made me sick.

slc2
Sep. 9, 2007, 09:22 PM
as usual moll you're twisting things around.

my own feeling is that this case sounds airtight...my point was that not all of them are, and that i reserve some doubt for EVERYTHING i hear on the internet. there is no one verifying the stories. that's all - there is no one verifying it. the internet is a free for all, and some very legit sounding stories have turned out to be wrong. this one sounds good.

and again, since you want to twist it, my point was not what you said - my point was that people abused horses before rollkur, just because someone says they don't use rollkur, doesn't mean they are not abusive.

LLDM
Sep. 9, 2007, 09:38 PM
well, i think we have to assume that there's a lot of information in the case that isn't in the article. there's always a lot more to these cases - heck theree's always a lot more to things that doesn't get into the papers. i know traieners that are horrible that have many customers despite being brutes; the fei, usef, etc can't stop alot of what happens at people's homes. they just can't be everywhere. some aren't truly abusive in the legal sense just rough and abrupt.

Don't suppose you've ever read the rule book, eh? The USEF (and the FEI, I believe) do not have jurisdiction outside a licensed, recognized competition. So unless a member is actually convicted of abuse by a county, city, state or country, there is nothing the USEF can do about it, unless it IS at a licensed competiton. Even if they are convicted by a court of law, the USEF does not have to do anything about it (and often times don't).

I thought everyone knew this? :confused: :sigh:

SCFarm

slc2
Sep. 9, 2007, 10:25 PM
yes, the fei etc organizations only have jurisdiction over competitions. that's what i was saying, they can't stop alot of abuse that goes on, because it goes on outside competitions.

TKR
Sep. 10, 2007, 01:05 AM
Isn't it interesting that someone will state that "many trainers are abusive and still have clients" or something close as though that should make abuse a way of training that is acceptable in any form? So, let me get this straight -- if it is done on a regular basis, by many "trainers" it somehow should de-sensitize everyone and that makes it acceptable and mainstream? WOW!! I hope most of us never get to that point or believe that someone with a history of such psychopathic behavior has a valid reason, excuse or there is "more" to it when the horses' condition, injuries and behavior would be evidence enough! Yes, there are many cruel people who consider themselves trainers and those who accept it because it is "widespread". That certainly can never justify it or in any way keep it from being reported and prosecuted. Those that use cruel methods and inflict pain and suffering should be outed and banished. Those excuses about "everyone loses their temper" and many instances could be confused with cruelty just doesn't cut it or make cruelty palatable. Is a little terrorism ok?
PennyG

Gaia
Sep. 12, 2007, 06:36 AM
Anbei der Link zum NDR 1.Bericht = first video:

http://www3.ndr.de/ndrtv_pages_video/0,,SPM14440_VID4195208,00.html

Pictures.......


http://www.klassikreiten.de/viewtopic.php?t=1721&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30&sid=c94ae98a9ced2254a23f2ed79da465ce

Second video:

http://www3.ndr.de/ndrtv_pages_video/0,,SPM14440_VID4235588_TYPmslow_LOCint,00.html
So, now you know, this has NOTHING to do with the ANTI-RK movement. Yes?

/Margareta - in Sweden

Moll
Sep. 12, 2007, 07:06 AM
Thank you Gaia.

egontoast
Sep. 12, 2007, 07:21 AM
So are most of you really blind or just naive ,thinking that abuse is a rare thing at top barns?. IMO what do you think happens behind the closed door sessions?.


I guess I am blind or naive, because I will have to continue to think it is rare until someone can provide something better than claims like "everyone knows", "I heard the other day what they do with unruly horses ..." "what do you think happens behind the closed door sessions"

These things get said over and over on the net until they become urban myth. If it's true and people have personal knowledge of it they should act and not post tsktskwinkwink vague allegations on the net.

The CW case is of course different if there were witnesses, photos , video and a conviction. That is how to address horse abuse. I could not see much of the video because of dial up I guess and I can't read the language acoompanying the photos.

dutchmike
Sep. 12, 2007, 07:46 AM
These things get said over and over on the net until they become urban myth. If it's true and people have personal knowledge of it they should act and not post tsktskwinkwink vague allegations on the net.

The CW case is of course different if there were witnesses, photos , video and a conviction. That is how to address horse abuse. I could not see much of the video because of dial up I guess and I can't read the language acoompanying the photos.

Hey that is your choice ,I hear in some places teachers are not allowed to talk about 9/11 either. As long as we stick our heads in the sand things will go away instead adressing the problem and do something about it. How to solve it that I don't know. What causes is it is simpel, money ,greed and sponsors that just want results.

egontoast
Sep. 12, 2007, 09:33 AM
HUH?? I guess you missed this part


If it's true and people have personal knowledge of it they should act


In other words, if you know about abuse, do something about it as the grooms did in this case. Repeating vague rumours you have heard about unnamed trainers at unnamed barns is not helping the horses and is painting a lot of decent trainers with the same brush. If you witnessed abuse, it's up to you to act and not put YOUR head in the sand.

Not sure what this could possibly have to do with 9/11.:confused:

Since I am not from the US, perhaps that dig just went over my head .

SGray
Sep. 12, 2007, 11:35 AM
what could one possibly hope to accomplish by whipping a horse in the face - can anyone come up with an explanation for that which does not involve either abuse or insanity?

AllWeatherGal
Sep. 12, 2007, 12:56 PM
Enforcement of "no ownership/contact" ban could be strengthened by making it a punishable offense for anyone to sell, lend, or otherwise put a horse into someone's care.

Hefty fines seem to deter bad behavior.

snoopy
Sep. 12, 2007, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=AllWeatherGal;2678344]Enforcement of "no ownership/contact" ban could be strengthened by making it a punishable offense for anyone to sell, lend, or otherwise put a horse into someone's care.

Hefty fines seem to deter bad behavior.






I would agree with this statement.:yes:

Ja Da Dee
Sep. 12, 2007, 02:12 PM
Enforcement of "no ownership/contact" ban could be strengthened by making it a punishable offense for anyone to sell, lend, or otherwise put a horse into someone's care.

Hefty fines seem to deter bad behavior.

Nice in theory, but say this happened in the US, how would everyone know that this person has a record? Someone just getting into dressage, coming over from another dicipline would have no clue, heck, someone who does dressage, just doesn't pay attention to the bb's wouldn't have a clue.

dutchmike
Sep. 12, 2007, 04:08 PM
HUH?? I guess you missed this part



In other words, if you know about abuse, do something about it as the grooms did in this case. Repeating vague rumours you have heard about unnamed trainers at unnamed barns is not helping the horses and is painting a lot of decent trainers with the same brush. If you witnessed abuse, it's up to you to act and not put YOUR head in the sand.

Not sure what this could possibly have to do with 9/11.:confused:

Since I am not from the US, perhaps that dig just went over my head .

These grooms only got to show their evidence after finally ST GEORGE got involved ,before that the authorities and the german federation weren't intrested. If you know of abuse it really isn't as easy to make an complaint as people seem to think. It stinks but it is how the system works.

TKR
Sep. 12, 2007, 04:41 PM
So, if it's "widespread" we should all just be jaded and used to it so BECAUSE it's widespread it is now ok (shrug shoulders) and nothing can be done. WOW!! That's the apathetic attitude that CHOOSES corruption! Considering that we now have such a network of communications at our fingertips via the internet and international media, this sort of thing can be better covered and knowledge is a powerful tool. The laws need to be strengthened, but by sweeping abuse under the carpet or shrugging it off won't help. If you accept it, you are also part of the problem. I'm always amazed at the attitude that it's "not resolvable" or it's "someone else's problem". I don't care WHO the bnt is or how much it's done for whatever reason -- it's never acceptable, it must be talked about and prosecuted and aired. Animals will always be victims of individuals who love the power they have over them and their sick ambition or machoism. Who knows why, but "accepting" because it is done alot is a HUGE problem as well! Pass the buck? I don't think so! If you see it or know about it -- you are handed some responsibility in reporting or resolving it. I guess if one doesn't it's because maybe that bnt & co. "won't like you" -- I'd rather they fear my wrath!
JMHO
PennyG

slc2
Sep. 12, 2007, 04:53 PM
there seems to be an assumption here on this bb that if someone says 'that happens alot' that that is equivalent to the statement, 'i approve of this happening'

actually, 'that happens alot' carries absolutely no connotation of 'i approve of this happening'. it is merely the statement that it happens alot.

SGray
Sep. 12, 2007, 05:01 PM
some dumb**** teenage boys put a video of themselves abusing a cat on utube - they got identified, prosecuted and convicted in Texas -- video evidence is a powerful thing

class
Sep. 12, 2007, 05:28 PM
there seems to be an assumption here on this bb that if someone says 'that happens alot' that that is equivalent to the statement, 'i approve of this happening'

actually, 'that happens alot' carries absolutely no connotation of 'i approve of this happening'. it is merely the statement that it happens alot.

well, either you KNOW it happens a lot because you have seen terrible abuse behind closed doors but have done nothing about it. or you are just parroting what you have heard others say with no real knowledge of any actual abuse.

dutchmike
Sep. 12, 2007, 06:30 PM
I don't agree with abuse. I do think that the various federations lack the description of abuse. I mean how far are you going to push abuse?. Is abuse overweight people bouncing around on little ponies or those that hang in the horses mouth continously?. Is one good whack abuse?. Is it more abusive to beat a horse or to let it get away with murder until he needs to be put back into place by someone behind the socalled closed doors. I know what agree with and with what not. Have I ever been rough to a horse?. Yes I have dealt with some that needed a good whack although the reason they needed one was because the various amateur owners let them get away with anything untill they really started acting up.
Everybody screams about abuse but noone looks at themselfs.

Gaia
Sep. 13, 2007, 02:02 AM
I guess that most of us have whacked some horses. Sometimes the correction means that the horse will not have to go on the meatwagon.

But, the thin line between abuse and correction being hard to define - does not mean that we should give up. In Sweden there is a law against beating children. It IS hard to define which is what...beating or holding to avoid bigger damage for instance. The law is still there anyway.

Giving the horse an option to "behave nicely" makes a big difference. Just going on pressing, pressing until the horse is bleeding - is not schooling. Just abuse. And that was the decision of the court.

Margareta. in Sweden

kkj
Sep. 13, 2007, 10:50 AM
If the average horse person would find it blatantly abusive, I think it is abuse. I think most horsepeople across any discipline would find the bloody mouth, bloody whip marks, spur marks abuse. I sure do.

Sure there are a lot of gray areas. I would not want an overweight bad rider bouncing around on my horse's back or hanging on her mouth for security.. but I would not call the humane society. I would not want my trainer cranking on my horse in draw reins, I don't think that everyone who occasionally rides with them should be outed as an abusive criminal.

The irony that dressage is suppose to make the horse more harmonious, willing to dance etc is that you see this poster child for dressage only in that she is tall, thin, blond and German kicking the crap out of horses. The horses look anything but harmonious or willing. I am surprised she has not had a horse flip over on her before and really hurt her. Horses really are too tolerant.

If I saw that women I would have a hard time supressing my desire to kick her in the butt myself.

Nojacketrequired
Oct. 6, 2008, 08:47 PM
My trainer travelled with a European O rider for an entire summer, as a WS/ exercise rider. His mentor was not one of the ones who abused their horses.
When my trainer returned, he didn't ride for over 6 months...When asked why, he said that after what he'd seen in Europe at the top levels, it wasn't worth it. He completely lost his drive to become a top rider, after seeing the sort of things that went on to get the performance that was required.

After just a few of the stories, I asked him to stop. I couldn't listen. And, these are people you would easily recognize.

I really believe that we in N. America are terribly naive about what happens in the big barns. And trust me...You don't want to know.

Cinder

slc2
Oct. 6, 2008, 11:41 PM
So, all elite European competitive riders are so rough, or is this true of all the american elite riders too?

This person rode in america a long time and never saw anything like what they saw in Europe? So elite american dressage riders aren't rough and european ones are?

Is this just being demanding and firm, or is this far more?

BaroquePony
Oct. 7, 2008, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by egontoast:


Quote:
So are most of you really blind or just naive ,thinking that abuse is a rare thing at top barns?. IMO what do you think happens behind the closed door sessions?.

I guess I am blind or naive, because I will have to continue to think it is rare until someone can provide something better than claims like "everyone knows", "I heard the other day what they do with unruly horses ..." "what do you think happens behind the closed door sessions"

These things get said over and over on the net until they become urban myth. If it's true and people have personal knowledge of it they should act and not post tsktskwinkwink vague allegations on the net.

The CW case is of course different if there were witnesses, photos , video and a conviction. That is how to address horse abuse. I could not see much of the video because of dial up I guess and I can't read the language acoompanying the photos.

If you were more knowledgable about certain personality types, combined with how dysfunctional the American legal system is, you might not say something this naive.

egontoast
Oct. 7, 2008, 07:25 AM
If you were more knowledgable about certain personality types, combined with how dysfunctional the American legal system is, you might not say something this naive.

Have you personally witnessed this or are you basing it on "personality types". If you personally witnessed it, what did you do about it?

Your legal system may be 'dysfunctional' but I doubt that people are convicted by vague allegations based on 'personality types'.

I believe this thread was about the previous conviction of CW in Germany. Fortunately 'someone' was willing to step up and record and report the abuse. That is how to deal with it effectively. Vague gossip on a bulletin board, painting all upper level stables with the same brush, is of no help to any horse.

merrygoround
Oct. 7, 2008, 08:10 AM
A late comment,

One if the saddest things about this is that she may not legally go near a horse for only a few years. Ishould be for life. In my personal experience, I've made the observation that these people can and will repeat. They are not emotionally balanced. They are in the same category as any other abuser.

Not even thinking of offering myself as a psychologist or psychiatrist. Just long lived, life long observer of people.

egontoast
Oct. 7, 2008, 08:40 AM
One if the saddest things about this is that she may not legally go near a horse for only a few years. Ishould be for life. In my personal experience, I've made the observation that these people can and will repeat.

I guess you haven't seen the other thread with the new allegation and video. I assume that is why this older thread was bumped up.

BaroquePony
Oct. 7, 2008, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by egontoast:

Have you personally witnessed this or are you basing it on "personality types". If you personally witnessed it, what did you do about it?

Your legal system may be 'dysfunctional' but I doubt that people are convicted by vague allegations based on 'personality types'.

When I used the term "personality type" it was meant to be a general definition, rather than getting into specific details about individuals that actually do exist. I would not discuss names or even identifying traits or actions. Some of the actions of specific individuals are so distinct that anyone who knows them would recognize it immediately.

I have personally witnessed several things, and I did nothing about it. I did discuss the situation with a few people I trusted and the decision was made to not do anything, including talking about it any further. The reason for that decision had to do with the knowledge that one of the involved people was a known, diagnosed sociopath (a *personality type*).

In another incident, the involved party took an action against my horse while I was out of town for four days. I was preparing to move my horse, I just didn't get it done fast enough.

I have had friends in similar situations.

All of us (the people I know that have witnessed some rather sick behavior) have walked away from the horse business at one time or another in order to regroup and try to start up again without getting caught up in a bad situation ever again if possible.

Egontoast, I did not imply in any way that I would expect someone to get convicted on their "personality type" or vague allegations. I was only commenting on why people don't come forward and press charges. Do you always misinterpret context and make things up, or is this just a special occasion? I actually consider someone with an attitude like yours to be a large problem in the development of people's awareness of abuse (and surrounding "climate" of abuse) which needs to occur in order to be able to begin to develop methods and means of stopping abuse.

As far as the American court system goes, I'm not going into the details of what a mess that is right now, but I can assue you that just because a person presents accurate, clear, overwhelming evidence of criminal misconduct in front of a judge that there is any guarantee that the criminal won't walk and the individual presenting the allegations won't be dealing with threats, intimidation and physical harm to either body or possessions.

Get real. You must have no clue.

Anytime a person gets around world class horsemanship, they also are around world class money. And large amounts of money have a huge effect on the game and the people involved.

grayarabpony
Oct. 7, 2008, 12:53 PM
Punishment for animal abuse is just not severe enough. As if someone who tortures a cat or dog or horse will be nice to human beings...

egontoast
Oct. 7, 2008, 01:07 PM
Get real. You must have no clue

If only I had all your smarts!


I actually consider someone with an attitude like yours to be a large problem in the development of people's awareness of abuse

yes, it's all my fault because I like to see people step up to the plate rather than just repeat what they have heard about all the barns in europe!

Foxtrot's
Oct. 7, 2008, 04:28 PM
I gave up dressage lessons with a certain dressage 'master' because he used a whip, in my opinion, to excess in his lessons and demos
"to engage the hocks, to make them 'wake up'". Not an acceptable tap-tap that caused no fear, but swishing attacks that caused tension and tail swishing. He had a huge following of middle aged women who took it all in as gospel.

Fancy That
Oct. 7, 2008, 04:29 PM
My trainer travelled with a European O rider for an entire summer, as a WS/ exercise rider. His mentor was not one of the ones who abused their horses.
When my trainer returned, he didn't ride for over 6 months...When asked why, he said that after what he'd seen in Europe at the top levels, it wasn't worth it. He completely lost his drive to become a top rider, after seeing the sort of things that went on to get the performance that was required.

After just a few of the stories, I asked him to stop. I couldn't listen. And, these are people you would easily recognize.

I really believe that we in N. America are terribly naive about what happens in the big barns. And trust me...You don't want to know.

Cinder

I've already commented on the abusive German trainer and video in the other thread.

But, Cinder, your story really disturbs me. If your trainer quit riding after seeing what some of the top European trainers were doing....I can only imagine it was horrendous.

And it saddens me that dressage, which as others have mentioned, is supposed to be about the HARMONY and WILLING PARTNERSHIP between human and horse :(

slc2
Oct. 7, 2008, 07:39 PM
We had someone come on here and say it is abusive to

1. turn a horse out with a fly mask on in september

2. canter in collected canter for more than 2 minutes

3. ride for more than 45 minutes

I don't always believe people who say 'so and so is an abusive rider'. I need to see for myself. People can get very strange ideas. The more blatant cases, people usually show more agreement on.

To be honest, though, with animal cruelty laws as they are in the USA, comparatively speaking, one can get away with murder in the USA compared to most european countries, where, for example, it's illegal to pole jumpers in your own barn at home, not just at a show.

Werner
Oct. 8, 2008, 09:11 AM
Hi folks,

I'm new to this forum and just got a call from an author of my online German horse magazine, a 84 old woman who writes a two year series about dressage training for young horses. She urged me to watch that video from two days ago and gave me the broadcasting data for three different channels. Of course, I found it on the web and did some googling to gather more information -- that's how I found this thread, and I decided to tell you something you might be interested in.

It's true, the whole stuff isn't really new, and also it's true that these things come up every couple of years in all kinds of disciplines. Furthermore, you can see enough at tournaments to know that these things are really common. So the problem is that most everybody knows more than they would like, and they don't know where to draw the line. That's why the official institutions including the courts hesitate as long as they can. Yesterday, the German FN announced (http://pferdezeitung.com/Mitteilung/11836) that it will officially bring a charge against Christine W. with respect to cruelty against animals, at last. In one of the German forms discussing these things somebody said that rather sooner than later nobody will be talking about it anymore. I'm afraid, that's true. That's how society works.

So I guess the problem is much more profound, the reasons for all the structures and behaviors are deep-rooted. Furthermore this trainer would not be able to do what she did -- like any other trainer -- if there were not people who want her to do it and even pay her, and they do that because of the success her methods allegedly have. That's what everybody does, right? Think about the methods Anky is proud to work with! She claims to use them.

I thought a lot about this during a series I am still working on for my online magazine. There is a huge bandwidth in human behavior with horses. In some of the last editions, I investigated into the fascination cruelty and humiliation has for humans as such, and found in that course lots of porno sites using horse metaphors and utensils because they are so obvious to use. A couple playing these horse games even wrote a letter to the editor -- they didn't feel offended by my obvious estrangement, but wanted to show to my readers how much fun that is and how much that pony play enhances their lives. So far, they didn't send in their contribution, but I guess they are working on it.

Basically, I guess this all amounts to the question of living right. If you don't feel empathy with any other living being, you can be cruel to it and even have fun. That's why gangs terrorize neighborhoods, that's why horsemen can be cruel to horses without feeling bad. There is a very interesting essay elaborating this core idea which I roughly translated into German for my next to last article: Raymond Smullyan, Is God a Taoist? (http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/godTaoist.html) Smullyan's God maintains that life's purpose is to learn that hurting sentient beings ultimately results in suffering, which means that everybody starts out young and dumb in order to become old and wise, while this may take very many lifetimes.

This week's article is the first about three videos of Stacy Westfall (http://www.westfallhorsemanship.com/), the one from 2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od8lj_FOkh8), and next week I will write about the ones from 2003 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag) and 2006 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-7v8Ck1crg). I think she doesn't even know what she does, but these videos drive me and many others to tears, again and again. There is this Russian dressage trainer Alexander Nevzorov (http://www.hauteecole.ru/en/) who shows that Haute Ecole (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaeC2aQ4a3E) is possible without reins and saddle, and he fights a fierce war against cruelty with horses (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkxOp_xfVEg) as well, but these videos don't really touch your heart. Stacy Westfall does something that reaches far beyond all dressage tricks we know from artists like Lorenzo or Jean Marc Imbert, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't understand it herself. Stormy May (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j0Z19IhgPA) is reaching for something at first glance similar, but actually quite different. She is looking for people who work with horses to improve personally, she thinks horse work is spiritual work.

I would like to see more people engaging in this direction rather than cooking their own rage, fantasizing themselves cruel scenarios to put other sentient beings down, which is the same old play again, now in the name of pretended doing good. Don't misunderstand me -- this person has to be stopped. But then, there are thousands of others doing more or less the same. The whole business is rotten and should be replaced by something really beautiful and healthy, for both man and horse. Stacy, Alexander, Stormy, Sabine Birmann (http://www.mitpferdensein.de/) and many others show and investigate into how this could be done. Let's join them and rather forget about the others -- they will find their masters! For one thing is obvious: They surely don't show us the way!

Thank you for listening.

BaroquePony
Oct. 8, 2008, 10:33 AM
Werner,

Great explanation and depth of understanding. I think the videos (and consequent exposure) are vital to people understanding what goes on in some situations, since it is only through understanding can these things be changed.

TKR
Oct. 8, 2008, 11:04 AM
What sort of penalty is this evil woman likely to get? What is the feeling in Germany/Denmark about her? Will she be shunned by the horse industry? I think a bullet to her head is the best way to protect the horses!
PennyG

Oldenburg Mom
Oct. 8, 2008, 11:10 AM
Werner,

Is there anyone/any place we can email—albeit in English—to show our support for the investigation? Anyone at the German FN?

Werner
Oct. 8, 2008, 05:45 PM
@Oldenburg Mom

Well, I guess fn-presse@fn-dokr.de would be ok, that's the press office. English is ok, of course.

@TKR

I'm afraid the guy who shoots her will produce a lot of bad karma :mad:

I'm no lawyer, but she already had a sentence 2 years ago about 6300 EUR and no right of access to horses both privately and professionally; she appealed against that sentence. Her lawyer pleaded to restrict this to the professional side to which the attorney objected. The next trial date will be in a month.

BTW, the TV movie was really weak, the experts were mostly stammering. It doesn't really pay to translate that -- the images are convincing, you don't have to understand. On the contrary, the statements are rather irritating.

@BaroquePony

Exactly, but there will always be people behaving like this. The problem here is that the sport itself produces these things. It's simply the consequence of the FEI regulations. Change the rules, and you will change everything else. That's what Nevzorov heads at, I think. He calls horses the last slaves and asks for abolutionism.

Solero
Oct. 10, 2008, 05:22 AM
The problem here is that the sport itself produces these things. It's simply the consequence of the FEI regulations. Change the rules, and you will change everything else. That's what Nevzorov heads at, I think. He calls horses the last slaves and asks for abolutionism.

Cannot agree with this statement. The sport itself does not produce anything, the people, who take part in it, are the problem source. You could then as well say that just because some idiots are not following the traffic regulations, driving the car or car production industry itself is wrong, which is absurd, of course. And please, do not involve the Nevzorov in this, with him it is not all that simple and nice as it looks. Believe me, being proficient in Russian, I have read the other side of the coin. All he heads at is promotion of his own business on the base of some "saint cause". There is tons of information to indulge on certain internet sites, but I do not believe it is worth wasting anybody's time on this, even more because it is total offtop in this Christine W. case.

slc2
Oct. 10, 2008, 08:08 AM
I would not hold Nevzie up as an example of anything, this only proves how incredibly naive people are and how badly the internet distorts what people really are. My SO knows of him before his 'horse thing' and laughs his head off every time the name comes up.

The FEI has more regulations than any other horse organization to protect horses. The offending rider has very, ,very little to do with the FEI.

Nojacketrequired
Oct. 12, 2008, 09:12 PM
Werner, could you please expand on this statement?


The problem here is that the sport itself produces these things. It's simply the consequence of the FEI regulations.

Thanks, NJR

Werner
Oct. 13, 2008, 08:07 AM
Cannot agree with this statement. The sport itself does not produce anything, the people, who take part in it, are the problem source. You could then as well say that just because some idiots are not following the traffic regulations, driving the car or car production industry itself is wrong, which is absurd, of course. And please, do not involve the Nevzorov in this, with him it is not all that simple and nice as it looks. Believe me, being proficient in Russian, I have read the other side of the coin. All he heads at is promotion of his own business on the base of some "saint cause". There is tons of information to indulge on certain internet sites, but I do not believe it is worth wasting anybody's time on this, even more because it is total offtop in this Christine W. case.
Thanks for the analogy, but your conclusion is wrong; on the contrary, your analogy shows exactly that my proposition is true. The traffic works fine because the rules are okay. This hasn't been the case from the beginning, the rules had to be adopted many times until things ran smoothly, and that will apply to the future as well; as soon as new circumstances show that the old rules don't work fine anymore, they must be improved or else things will get worse.

Also, people not adhering to rules don't prove anything with respect to rules proper -- they only prove that they don't understand what rules are made for, why we need them and why they are useful.

Nevzorov is an interesting topic indeed and I must admit that I know next to nothing about him. Unfortunately, I cannot read Russian.

Therefore, I would be very interested in getting as much information as possible. As he propagates horse education without coercive and has posted videos from classes where he shows horse abuse on (most probably Russian) tournaments, I think this hint is not off-topic. My plea was to concentrate on positive developments instead of indulging on negative examples.

Werner
Oct. 13, 2008, 09:17 AM
Werner, could you please expand on this statement?
Thanks, NJR

Thanks a lot for the request! As said in my reply to the previous post, rules are necessary not only among humans, but also among animals and especially horses, as we all know. It doesn't matter if rules are written down; more often than not they are not even explicitly defined. Take the rules among peer groups, for example, they are developed and shift all the time as the members of the group mature and the experiences they encounter within and without the group put the rules on test.

Very often it is not possible to see what effects rules will have; a very good example is the financial crisis the world is experiencing right now. Most probably it has been triggered by rules set by the state institutions, and those will try to set things right by creating new rules. Debate is now open with respect to the effects the new rules might have. Unfortunately, nobody knows. The rules might not even be followed, which is something that would be taken for, once revealed, by the courts. Most people will adhere to the rules, but the rules only define the game, they don't determine it.

Everybody knows chess with its very simple rules, but how many possibilities to create interesting or dull games! The same holds true with sporting events of all kinds, especially with horses. Remember the times when horses used to die during military competitions? They changed the rules and introduced veterinary checks so that horses that might have been abused will drop out automatically, so the rider harms himself by doing so.

With respect to the FEI, they set the rules, and I claim that they set the rules based on the wrong goals. Rules are obviously man-made, and they have to be made with a certain goal in mind. For example, traffic rules try to make traveling as safe as possible for the greatest number of people ensuring the fastest possible speed. To this end, the rules are different in city quarters or highways, different on trains and subways and pedestrian pavements and airports and so on.

What are the goals the FEI strives for? A couple of years ago, the German FN became 100 years old. On this occasion, they published a history of this organization showing where it comes from, who established it with which interests in mind, and how these initial goals has been developed into the future until the present day. Basically, sporting events are still modeled along the rules of the military needs of the late 19th century, being vital for the horse production industry.

When horses were no longer needed in the military realm after the First World War, young boys from rural areas were introduced to horse sports, backed by the horse production industry which couldn't sell horses to the military in scales they were used to. Also, they tried to sell horses abroad. A whole new industry developed between the wars. After the Second World War, sport horses were only the hobby of very few rich people with backgrounds in the gentry and the military. Typically, at Olympian Games, soldiers were competing among themselves.

With the industrialization of farming, horses became obsolete altogether, so at the beginning of the 60s, there was a huge endeavor to rescue the horse, in particular the sport horse, because the beginning of the growing of wealth was already there, so the sports seem to be the means to the survival of the horse itself. The first in four-in-hand hand driving world championship, for example, was scheduled 1972. Actually, horses weren't exactly saved this way, instead the old breeds were redefined and resulted in a uniform all-purpose sport horse, extinguishing the old breeds.

People didn't do all this just for the love of the horse, people were fighting for their economic basis, people wanted and needed to live from the horse. This worked out very well. In Germany, many farmers are not only horse breeders, even more run stables whereas horse lovers are no longer rural people, kids of farmers, but mostly well-to-do women living in cities. The overwhelming majority of those doesn't even compete, but the competition sets the rules now as ever. Whatever the stars show, everybody else will adore and try to imitate.

I think the FEI set the rules with the wrong goals in mind. It's easy to define jumping as a competition where you have to overcome obstacles as fast as possible, where the obstacle course itself can be sharpened by very narrow turns and difficult and high fences. Basically, this is extremely unimaginative and boresome. The game itself forces the course designer to raise the fences and render the course itself more and more complicated. A very good example is high jumping. Very often, the audience gets upset the higher the obstacle is raised. This amounts in many cases to nothing more than animal abuse -- just a consequence of the rules.

The same is true with eventing; very often the courses are so merciless and terrible that horses and riders risk their health and lives. Is this all they can think of? Is this where we want people and horses to go? The course designers have to make sure that only the very best get through. This is the idea of competition. But how this is to be done is open to us. We can define the rules as we please.

Take for example driving; marathon is still very hazardous, obstacle driving definitely is not. In both cases, much the same qualities and skills are to be checked. In recent times, mostly for marketing reasons, a new discipline has been invented, which is nothing else than setting up new rules: driving in indoor arenas. There are definitely many chances to show most breathtaking driving skills in halls, but it looks like there is very little chance to do harm to people and horses this way.

This is what I mean: We can discuss as much as we want, FEI defines the rules. If FEI will declare that certain competitions are no longer supported, while others are newly invented or redefined, things will change, like in the financial world or anywhere else. These days I am very much impressed by three videos of Stacy Westfall, her rides 2003 NRHA Futurity Show, Oklahoma City, OK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag), 2006 Quarter Horse Congress Free Style Reining (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-7v8Ck1crg) and 2007 NRHA Futurity Invitational Freestyle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGRVhHN60wI). I think she doesn't even realize what she does there, but I would love to see World Championships in disciplines defined along the lines she demonstrates. Judges should discriminate with respect to visible torture or free expression of both horse and rider. They don't, and they can't, because they themselves are subject to rules they have to adhere to. That's why I think we have to change the rules big style.

Solero
Oct. 18, 2008, 02:50 PM
Thanks for the analogy, but your conclusion is wrong; on the contrary, your analogy shows exactly that my proposition is true. The traffic works fine because the rules are okay. This hasn't been the case from the beginning, the rules had to be adopted many times until things ran smoothly, and that will apply to the future as well; as soon as new circumstances show that the old rules don't work fine anymore, they must be improved or else things will get worse.

Also, people not adhering to rules don't prove anything with respect to rules proper -- they only prove that they don't understand what rules are made for, why we need them and why they are useful.

Nevzorov is an interesting topic indeed and I must admit that I know next to nothing about him. Unfortunately, I cannot read Russian.

Therefore, I would be very interested in getting as much information as possible. As he propagates horse education without coercive and has posted videos from classes where he shows horse abuse on (most probably Russian) tournaments, I think this hint is not off-topic. My plea was to concentrate on positive developments instead of indulging on negative examples.

If traffic went so fine, there would be no car crash victims, would there? You confirmed it yourself, it is not the problem of the system, that someone is not respecting it or doing it wrong, the same as with equestrian sports. FEI has issued enough regulations cocerning horse welfare being the most important thing in this sports, and if one adheres to them, then it is not possible to do what Christine W. did.

Nevzorov might seem interesting, but trust me, do not waste your or anybody elses time with this propoganda. There is really not much more behind it than some circus tricks and good, carefully and purposefully managed PR. Unfortunately unless you read Russian, you might not be able to get the whole picture, as there is a good deal of healthy criticism out there, which clears out the seemingly positive impression created by the tiny bits of information available in English.

Nibs
Oct. 19, 2008, 12:30 PM
I just wanted to say that I think that the people in our sport are the only one who can do something about this at this point.

The rules are such that they are lacking in preventing people from being cruel. So lets shun them! A trainer can not get far without any grooms or clients. In my opinion, the people who work for these people are as much to blame as those who actually do the abusing.

I have groomed for many GP riders in canada. I have seen them loose their tempers, have bad rides. I have seen a whipping go a little too far, seen spurs cause a little bleeding, seen some poling ( with light bamboo poles). This is the extent of "what goes on behind closed doors" at these GP and Olympic barns. I have been a groom at some point for a lot of these guys, seen it first hand. Its is not the same as what CHRISTINE WELS does.

That said I do have my limits, and I would like to share my encounter of cruelty. I was working for a trainer, and the only reason I will not say his name is because I dont want people to know who I am, I dont care about his privacy and tell people this story in person all the time when they ask why I quit there.

Anyway, I got to the show barn one morning to find a horse tied to the rafters with his head straight up in the air in a very uncomfortable position. This was at about 5 30, no doubt the horse had been like this all night. I let him down immediately and he snorted a bunch of crap out of his nose and promptly laid down. He also had no water all night either. I know this because I asked the trainer when he came in in the morning. Apparently it was some spiteful method to get the horse tired for the show today cause he was sooooo bad the day before. I quit on the spot, and didnt hesitate to share my veiws with the other clients when they asked why I was leaving ( I did give him two weeks notice. Lets just say that was an akward two weeks!).

I was most shocked at the other clients reactions. Did no one think he crossed a line? No one else seemed shocked or upset about what he did. The owner of this horse was quite upset, but she saw him tie the horse up and did nothing, went to bed like he did and left her horse their for 9 hours or so. I can not believe what people will stand by and allow to happen to their animals.

If we, as an equestrian community, properly ostracized these trainers they would have no business to live off of. It is our own fault they are still in business. Speak up people!!!!

Oldenburg Mom
Oct. 20, 2008, 09:41 AM
I just wanted to say that I think that the people in our sport are the only one who can do something about this at this point.

I was most shocked at the other clients reactions. Did no one think he crossed a line? No one else seemed shocked or upset about what he did. The owner of this horse was quite upset, but she saw him tie the horse up and did nothing, went to bed like he did and left her horse their for 9 hours or so. I can not believe what people will stand by and allow to happen to their animals.

If we, as an equestrian community, properly ostracized these trainers they would have no business to live off of. It is our own fault they are still in business. Speak up people!!!!

I agree with this wholeheartedly. It is our responsibility—we who enable those to continue with this sort of "training" with our $$$'s. I cannot believe that owner allowed this ... makes me petrified of selling any of my horses to anyone.

Calif. native
Oct. 21, 2008, 01:46 AM
there was a western trainer couple in cALIFORNIA that allegedly did the same things to some of the western pleasure horses years ago when I was a young rider....so they would keep their heads down ....arrggghhhhh!

Werner
Nov. 26, 2008, 06:09 AM
The Kiel criminal procedure against the former Grand Prix rider Christiane W. has been closed with a surprising "deal" between court, public prosecutor's office and defense. Christiane W. put down the confession agreed upon therein and was condemned to 14 months imprisonment for it. The punishment was suspended for four years on probation. The condemned one must carry non-profit work for 150 hours. In addition the court forbade holding animals for three years. The judgement is valid.

egontoast
Nov. 26, 2008, 07:02 AM
It's getting a little confusing but I take it this was in relation to the earlier conviction in Germany which she appealed. The heading about jail time is a little misleading. She gets no jail time if she complies with probation restrictions.

Werner
Nov. 26, 2008, 07:28 AM
You are correct, but this is the translation of a press release I just got.

Right now, I got another one, from the FN. They say she got one year and 9 months on probation which is 21 months, not 14.

egontoast
Nov. 26, 2008, 07:41 AM
Right now, I got another one, from the FN. They say she got one year and 9 months on probation which is 21 months, not 14.

:) We may need a better translation because that just makes it even more confusing . Previously you said probation was for 4 years and (suspended) jail sentence 14 months.

In other words, if she fails to comply with the probation restrictions any time in the probationary period (however long it is), the jail term (however long it is) will kick in. If she fully complies with the probation for however long it is, she does not have to serve the time.

Werner
Nov. 26, 2008, 08:17 AM
This is the press release by FN - it says nothing about the probation period:


Landgericht Kiel verurteilt Christine W.

Kiel (fn-press). Ein Jahr und neun Monate auf Bewährung sowie ein dreijähriges Pferdehaltungsverbot – so lautet das Urteil des Landgerichts Kiel gegen die ehemalige Weltcup-Dressureiterin Christine W.. Der 60-Jährigen, die wegen Tierquälerei angezeigt war, wurde zudem für die Dauer von drei Jahren auch der berufsmäßige Umgang mit Pferden verboten und sie muss 150 Stunden gemeinnützige Arbeit ableisten. Das Urteil wurde von der Angeklagten akzeptiert und ist somit rechtskräftig. Etwas überraschend fiel die Entscheidung am Dienstag, 25. November, dem dritten Tag von ursprünglich sieben angesetzten Verhandlungstagen.

In dem jetzt abgeschlossenen Verfahren war es um Vorkommnisse auf Reitanlagen in Norderstedt und Halstenbek im Zeitraum von 2006 bis 2007 gegangen. Christine W. wurde von mehreren Reitern angezeigt, die ihre brutalen Trainingmethoden dokumentierten. Auch die Deutsche Reiterliche Vereinigung (FN) hatte auf die Vorfälle reagiert, ein Ausschlussverfahren bei den Persönlichen Mitgliedern der FN eingeleitet und Antrag auf Strafverfolgung wegen des Verdachts auf Tierquälerei gestellt.

Stimmen zum Urteil gegen Christine W.:

FN-Generalsekretär Dr. Hanfried Haring (Warendorf): "Das Urteil hat eine Signalwirkung! Hier wurde in aller Deutlichkeit gesagt, dass man sogar ins Gefängnis kommen kann, wenn man ein Pferd derart behandelt. Das war reine Tierquälerei. Wie Ausbildung von Pferden richtig auszusehen hat, ist in unseren Richtlinien für Reiten und Fahren festgelegt."

DOKR-Dressurausschussvorsitzender Ferdi-Jürgen Wassermeyer (Ennepetal): "Ich bin froh, dass Frau W. verurteilt und damit ein klares Zeichen gesetzt wurde, dass so mit Pferden nicht umgegangen werden kann. Ich spreche hier auch im Namen des DOKR-Dressurausschusses und der Kaderreiter, wenn ich sage, dass dies nichts mit der Ausbildung eines Pferdes zu tun hat."

Babelfish translates as follows:


Regional court Kiel condemns Christine W.

Kiel (fn-press). One year and nine months on probation as well as a three-year horse attitude prohibition - in such a way the judgement of the regional court Kiel reads against the former Weltcup Dressureiterin Christine W. The 60-Jährigen, which was indicated because of cruelty to animals, besides for the duration by three years also professional handling horses was forbidden and it must 150 hours non-profit work do. The judgement was accepted by the accused and is thus valid. Something surprisingly fell the decision on Tuesday, 25 November, the third day from originally seven set days of the hearing.

In the procedure locked now it had gone around occurrences on riding sites into north first EDT and Halstenbek in the period from 2006 to 2007. Christine W. was indicated by several riders, who documented their brutal training methods. Also the German Reiterliche combination (FN) had reacted to the incidents, an expulsion procedure with the personal members of the FN had introduced and request for prosecution because of the suspicion to cruelty to animals had set.

Voices to the judgement against Christine W.:

FN-Secretary-General Dr. Hanfried Haring (Warendorf): " The judgement has a signal effect! Here in all clarity it was said that one can come even into the prison, if one treats a horse in such a manner. That was pure cruelty to animals. As training of horses has to look correct, is in our guidelines for riding and driving festgelegt."

DOKR Dressurausschussvorsitzender Ferdi Jürgen Wassermeyer (Ennepetal): " I am glad the fact that Mrs. W. condemned and so that a clear indication was set that with horses cannot be gone around in such a way. I speak here also in the name of the DOKR Dressurausschusses and the cadre riders, if I say that this nothing hat." to do with the training of a horse;


This is the original press release mentioned in the previous post:


Pferdemisshandlungen: 14 Monaten Freiheitsstrafe

Das Kieler Strafverfahren gegen die vormalige Dressurreiterin Christiane W. – wir berichteten - ist überraschend mit einem "Deal" zwischen Gericht, Staatsanwaltschaft und Verteidigung zu Ende gegangen. Christiane W. hat das darin vereinbarte Geständnis abgelegt und wurde dafür zu 14 Monaten Freiheitsstrafe verurteilt. Die Strafe wurde für vier Jahre (!) zur Bewährung ausgesetzt. Die Verurteilte muss 150 Stunden gemeinnützige Arbeit leisten. Außerdem verbot ihr das Gericht auf drei Jahre, Tiere zu halten. Das Urteil ist rechtskräftig.

siegi b.
Nov. 26, 2008, 11:10 AM
Yes, the probation is 1 year and 9 months according to the article. In addition, Christine W. cannot be around horses for a period of 3 years and has to perform 150 hours of community work.

This sentence surprisingly came on Nov. 25th, the third day of the court proceedings that were expected to last seven days.

The rest is just a recap of what happened and the FN's condemnation of it.

And Werner, your perfect world of riding and training horses without bridles and saddles doesn't appeal to everybody. We put collars on dogs and take them to obedience training and they're actually better for it. Rules will not change the fact that there will always be some cruel folks that mistreat animals in their care. I disagree with you however, that there are so many of them because I think the majority of people are decent.

SGray
Nov. 26, 2008, 11:13 AM
from my German friend:

"She made a deal behind closed doors. She gave a confession and got probation.

She is not allowed to have or train horses for the next three years - BUT SHE IS ALLOWED TO RIDE . . .
If she is caught abusing horses in the next 4 years she will go to jail for one year and nine month.

She has to do 150 hours of community service and has to notify the courts of any change of residency.

That's all I have for now. "

ridgeback
Nov. 26, 2008, 11:21 AM
from my German friend:

"She made a deal behind closed doors. She gave a confession and got probation.

She is not allowed to have or train horses for the next three years - BUT SHE IS ALLOWED TO RIDE . . .
If she is caught abusing horses in the next 4 years she will go to jail for one year and nine month.

She has to do 150 hours of community service and has to notify the courts of any change of residency.

That's all I have for now. "


Wow that is really disappointing they are going to allow her to ride how is that different then training?:mad::(

torontodressage
Nov. 26, 2008, 11:40 AM
My 50 c, Christine W, is allowed to ride horses for private means and she is also allowed to ride horses for her horsetrading business:cry:

canyonoak
Nov. 26, 2008, 12:29 PM
Wow those Germans are so brave and sympathtic in worrying about horsees!

Christine Wels tortures hoirses for years, gets hauled into court--and then gets hauled back into court a few years later for torturing more horses.

She signs a piece of paper and goes right back to 'riding' horses for her business as well as her private life.

Yup, that's telling the horse abusers of the world!

Now contrast that with the vendetta against Christian Ahlmann who made the mistake of using capsaicin on his horse's back because it was sore!

He has been suspended, the FN is looking to ban him from competition, and his court costs even so far are probably ten to twenty times greater than Christine Wels.

I'm so glad the FN and the rest of the German horse world are taking care of business.

And please--no one bother to tell me that the law can only do what it can do in these cases.

Total piffle.

SGray
Nov. 26, 2008, 12:40 PM
can the German FN have any effect on this?

(didn't see canyonoak's reply before I posted - still want to know if a ban by G-FN can have any effect on CW's life?)

egontoast
Nov. 26, 2008, 01:24 PM
Christine Wels tortures hoirses for years, gets hauled into court--and then gets hauled back into court a few years later for torturing more horses.

She signs a piece of paper and goes right back to 'riding' horses for her business as well as her private life.



Well, remember, this was just the decision on appeal from the first incident in germany. Since it was an appeal of the original conviction, if the german legal system is similar to ours, the court would not have been able to take into account what happened since the original conviction including the new charge based on activities in Denmark unless she was in breach of some order (As far as I can tell, she was not in breach of the order of the court regarding restrictions on her activities with horses as this had been put on hold pending appeal. Not sure about that but it would not be unusual). This appeal would only be about whether the original decision should stand.

I'm not saying any of that is right or good, but it appears that is what has been going on with the legal process.

It is good, however, to have some resolution on that appeal before sentencing in the new matter because the prior decision WILL most likely be relevant to sentencing in the second matter, with a second conviction for similar behavior arguably deserving a greater penalty.

It's not over yet.

SGray
Nov. 26, 2008, 01:30 PM
how long might it take before new case goes to court? (how long will she be allowed to 'ride' before she is stopped?)

egontoast
Nov. 26, 2008, 01:49 PM
If you search for the thread about the newer charges, I believe someone mentioned there when the court resumes.

torontodressage
Nov. 26, 2008, 01:59 PM
Wow those Germans are so brave and sympathtic in worrying about horsees!

Christine Wels tortures hoirses for years, gets hauled into court--and then gets hauled back into court a few years later for torturing more horses.

She signs a piece of paper and goes right back to 'riding' horses for her business as well as her private life.

Yup, that's telling the horse abusers of the world!

Now contrast that with the vendetta against Christian Ahlmann who made the mistake of using capsaicin on his horse's back because it was sore!

He has been suspended, the FN is looking to ban him from competition, and his court costs even so far are probably ten to twenty times greater than Christine Wels.

I'm so glad the FN and the rest of the German horse world are taking care of business.

And please--no one bother to tell me that the law can only do what it can do in these cases.

Total piffle.

The FN is worried because the major tv-stations in Germany have announced to boycot the equestrian sports.:yes:

However panic is a very bad advisor:yes:

Kareen
Nov. 26, 2008, 02:09 PM
Canyonoak neither you nor anybody else knows why and where the capsaicin was administered to Ahlmann's horse.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Plus how is being banned from competition any more drastic than being sentenced to prison?! As far as I know anybody who has been sentenced to prison exceeding 3 months is going to be considered 'vorbestraft' for the rest of their days. That's slightly different than being suspended from some shows or competition in general. Those two cases aren't comparable at all because they deal with two completely different subjects: Ahlmann's case is about doping , the CW case(s) are concerning a 'Straftatbestand' (here 'Tierquälerei'). In German jurisdiction those are completely separate matters. Really the only thing they have in common is that both times equestrians (or so called...) are involved.

egontoast
Nov. 26, 2008, 02:22 PM
In German jurisdiction those are completely separate matters. Really the only thing they have in common is that both times equestrians (or so called...) are involved.

They would be separate in NA as well. The anti-doping/regulatory bodies are separate from the court system unless through appeal processes. In any event they would not be in cahoots as in synchronizing their decisions.

Kareen, do you know the status of the CW case based on her activities in Denmark?

PS and yes, it is true that when you are charged with a matter that may result in your imprisonment, you are afforded more in the way of due process than if the worst that can happen to you is that you are not allowed to compete. It's a bit of a sliding scale. There's also a higher standard of proof when your 'liberty' rather than your pocketbook or even your livelihood is at stake.

Werner
Nov. 26, 2008, 07:12 PM
And Werner, your perfect world of riding and training horses without bridles and saddles doesn't appeal to everybody. We put collars on dogs and take them to obedience training and they're actually better for it. Rules will not change the fact that there will always be some cruel folks that mistreat animals in their care. I disagree with you however, that there are so many of them because I think the majority of people are decent.
Siegi, I'm just a journalist these days, I don't own a horse anymore. When I did, I used saddles and bridles, but no spurs, and I sympathized with the idea to ride with slack reins if possible, using mostly weight shift and other minimal signals.

As a journalist, I am interested in new trends showing everywhere. There are a lot of people who are sick of all kinds of traditional ways to handle horses trying to find new ways instead. Of course, these people make lots of mistakes. That's unavoidable if you try to discover new terrain without any map, even without a clear direction, without a goal to head at. As far as I understand, that's part of the fun of it.

All these endeavors cannot appeal to people trying to follow prescribed rules and schools, obviously. Hence there cannot be any communication between these groups.

This week, for example, I wrote about basic misunderstandings in the treatment of dogs, stemming from huge mistakes in scientific setups, particular with respect to dominant behavior; consequently, the main picture of the magazine doesn't show a horse, but a howling wolf. The same kind of misunderstanding holds true with horses, however. As dominance is a major topic in any kind of horse treatment, this should be interesting for just about anybody dealing with horses.

Also, scientists have discussed the idea that man has not only domesticated dogs, but the other way around as well, dogs have domesticated man, too, which is a very appealing and convincing thought. Man has been in contact with horses not as long as with dogs, but the question is nevertheless if horses haven't domesticated man just as well. As far as I can see nobody has investigated into this direction yet. But I wouldn't be surprised if it is exactly the influence of horses upon man that comprises the fascination horses obviously have for man. Also, very many people feel lost and rootless these days and try to find some firm ground to develop upon; again horses may be a means to feel better and fix the deficiencies of modern existence.

This is something not covered by traditional journalism, so I think it's worthwhile to investigate into these directions -- just my very humble opinion. As a journalist, I can only digest what's there and present it to the public in order to see if there is any resonance at all. Through my publications, I may help to spread some developments more easily, but it's not me who creates them.

Sabine
Nov. 27, 2008, 01:58 AM
Canyonoak neither you nor anybody else knows why and where the capsaicin was administered to Ahlmann's horse.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Plus how is being banned from competition any more drastic than being sentenced to prison?! As far as I know anybody who has been sentenced to prison exceeding 3 months is going to be considered 'vorbestraft' for the rest of their days. That's slightly different than being suspended from some shows or competition in general. Those two cases aren't comparable at all because they deal with two completely different subjects: Ahlmann's case is about doping , the CW case(s) are concerning a 'Straftatbestand' (here 'Tierquälerei'). In German jurisdiction those are completely separate matters. Really the only thing they have in common is that both times equestrians (or so called...) are involved.

Kareen- dear...you don't quite understand- all Oakie is doing is comparing the 'severity' or lack thereof and pondering the insane insanity in the judgements...in other words Morons deciding the penalty...in the US we perceive Christine as someone that should be jailed for 3 years and then sent to sever therapy/supervised community work. No Riding no Training.
On the other hand- we perceive Christian as faulted...because Capsaicin is a commonly used element and although maybe not ideal - nothing nearly as cruel or abusive or harsh as the treatment Christine WEls put on those horses shown in the videos...

What do you and Germany think? Are we looking at a cultural divide??? That would be very interesting for me to know and understand...as I am german- but living in the US for a long time...

siegi b.
Nov. 27, 2008, 08:53 AM
Werner said.... "All these endeavors cannot appeal to people trying to follow prescribed rules and schools, obviously. Hence there cannot be any communication between these groups."

Your statement makes the assumption that we live in a black and white world with no shades of gray.... People either subscribe to your "perfect" methods of dealing with horses (let's call them white) or they don't (black) but the two groups never communicate.

I submit to you that the vast majority of the world consists of gray shades with maybe 10% of black and another 10% of white at each end of the spectrum.

Come to America to see all of the shades. :-)

ridgeback
Nov. 27, 2008, 09:53 AM
Werner said.... "All these endeavors cannot appeal to people trying to follow prescribed rules and schools, obviously. Hence there cannot be any communication between these groups."

Your statement makes the assumption that we live in a black and white world with no shades of gray.... People either subscribe to your "perfect" methods of dealing with horses (let's call them white) or they don't (black) but the two groups never communicate.

I submit to you that the vast majority of the world consists of gray shades with maybe 10% of black and another 10% of white at each end of the spectrum.

Come to America to see all of the shades. :-)

Well said Siegi:yes: