But Aren't They *MY* X-Rays too? Update- pg. 6

[ReeseTheBeast]

During my and Reese’s last bout of insanity (concerns of mechanical founder, thread in Horse Care), I found a wonderful new farrier to help bring Reese sound again. In order for him to begin the remedial shoeing (or any shoeing at all for that matter) he [understandably] needed x-rays to work from.


So I called my vet out to get the images needed. When he asked why I wanted the x-rays I told him that my farrier needs them in order to correctly shoe my horse. The vet was really dismissive, telling me that “farriers don’t know how to read x-rays” and that it was ridiculous to even request it. “Besides,” he said, “your horse just has typical crappy TB feet. You don’t need some genius farrier to come down here and charge you a bunch of money, you just need to slap some shoes on him and that’s that. It doesn’t matter who does it, it just needs to be done.”


Annoyed as I was, I kept my mouth shut and on we went. The vet took lots and lots of x-rays with his portable digital machine, and even showed me that Reese has a bone chip in his LF fetlock joint. Not sure why he was even x-raying the fetlock since all we needed was the images inside the foot; but hey- I’m all about keeping on top of Reese’s various dents and dings so it’s not like I minded.


I asked him for a CD copy of the images he had just taken, and he kept sort of skirting the issue. Although the laptop and everything was there and available, he told me several times that he’d “just drop it by the farm next time he’s working in the area.” After explaining that I needed everything ASAP so my farrier could see the radiographs and shoe accordingly, he told me that he’d just mail me some print outs of the lateral and DV shots of each front foot since “that’s all the farrier will need.” Ok, that’s fine and well but I still wanted to CD. So I pressed him on the issue again, and he one more insisted that he’d “drop it by sometime.”


When I asked the vet about speaking with my farrier regarding implementing a ‘rehab protocol,’ he was acting perplexed as to why that would even be necessary, and even more so like he just didn’t want to speak with the farrier; like it would be a huge inconvenience or waste of time. Whatever. I paid the vet the $300 for the all the radiographs (including the ones I didn’t ask him to take!) and the farm call right there on the spot. The next day, my farrier called the vet anyway (since the vet wouldn’t call the farrier) and the vet told him the same thing he told me- that he just needed shoes, nothing special and there was really no reason to include him in any of the decision making and that he was just a sh!tty footed Thoroughbred and that was that.


So, I get the printouts in the mail. They looked suspiciously like 2 duplicate images of the same foot. How do I know this? Reese is a bit clubby on his RF and both of these printouts had the same hoof wall angles, measurements and other markers within the image that couldn’t have shown up in both feet (ex: among several other things, the frog apex marker had folded up into a very distinct shape, I’m doubtful it had done the exact same thing on both feet). But then again, I’m not a vet nor am I an x-ray technician so I just handed my farrier the pictures. After looking at them, he mentioned that he thought they were the same foot as well; and I hadn’t even said anything about what I suspected to him. Furthermore, upon seeing the sole depth (or lack thereof) he was surprised that the vet didn’t suggest pads or any other sole/frog support because there was literally nothing under his P3… that’s when we started to get concerned about mechanical founder.


Farrier shoes my horse as best as he can with what little he had to work with, both in terms of Reese’s hooves and the images we had to go from. We couldn’t wait any longer to put the shoes on, as Reese was in so much pain he couldn’t walk. Again, I called the vet’s office to ask for the CD because both the farrier and I wanted to see what else the other images could tell us and if anything needed to be changed with regards to the shoeing. The vet’s office assured me that they’d put the disc in the mail that day. Well, a week goes by, still no disc. By this time, the farrier and I have no choice but to take Reese to an equine hospital an hour and a half away in order to get new x-rays and to work with a new vet on the shoeing protocol because of our concerns… to the tune of about $1k. Incidentally, this vet and this clinic were MORE than willing to provide a copy of the disc to both the farrier and me.


So, I called the vet again yesterday, because I’d still like to have the disc for reference, and even comparison to the other x-rays that were taken last week. The receptionist was very snippy with me and said, “He already sent you print outs of the images.” I explained the ‘duplicate picture’ theory (which seemed to piss her off for some reason) and said “besides, I’d just like to have the disc… it’s my horse and these are things I want to have access to in case of a need in the future.” She told me that I would have to speak to the vet directly and that he would charge me a fee for the copy of the disc as well as postage to mail it out. Although I thought that was ridiculous (weren’t those ‘fees’ included in the $300 bill I had already paid?) I told her that was fine, gave her my cell and work phone numbers and informed her that I was looking forward to speaking with the vet about this matter. I also mentioned that if, for some reason, they are unable to produce the disc that I would accept a refund of the cost of the x-rays.


I don’t think I was out of line, and I’m quite frankly appalled at what I feel is unprofessional behavior and business practice on the part of the vet. If anyone has opinions on that or anything else in the story, please share them… I’m interested in hearing other peoples’ insights.
SO…. Now that you’ve got the whole story, long as it is, I must know- am I legally entitled to this disc? I know that x-rays and such are considered to be the property of the veterinarian who took them, but I thought that the owner was also entitled to the images (at least in the state of Maryland, although if someone knows otherwise please correct me if I’m wrong).


I’m really frustrated. Any advice, knowledge or suggestions you could share is greatly welcomed and encouraged!!!!

[clanter]

The Xrays ae the vets, and I personally would find a new vet

[BarbB]

Persistence until you get what you want, followed by a hunt for a new vet would seem to be in order.

My vet, my farrier and I are a TEAM. If the team isn't working together then the part not working needs to be replaced.

Good luck, keep hammering.

[onelanerode]

Not that I have much experience in these matters, but I'd be looking for a new vet. Yours is being rather shady about this. Either he is willing and able to provide a CD of these x-rays, with or without charging an extra fee for doing so, or he is not. He can't seem to decide which it is and is stringing you along and being rude to boot. No excuse for that.

[chai]

I agree with Clanter. It is very odd that your vet doesn't seem to want to work with your farrier. My vet has been wonderful about working with two different farriers to help our laminitic pony, and if your TB is very sore, it is risky to put shoes on without the benefit of the xrays you just shelled out $300 for. My vet puts a special marker on each xray so we will know which one is LF or RF...it seems like something your vet should have learned in X-Ray 101, so it is odd that it wasn't done that way.
It is a very simple thing to print out the xrays on a disk, so I can't imagine why your vet is being so difficult about it. After spending that amount of money, I hope you will be able to get a full disk of the xrays, especially for use as a baseline inthe future.

[rescuemom]

The x-rays belong to the vet. I've been through this although without any of the problems you had.

And yeah, you need a new vet, now. He can't even seem to decide what this issue is, much less his attitude about the radiographs, and farriers. What part of MD are you in? Feel free to PM me.

[Chief2]

Ditto all of the above.

[DopyDgz]

Wow, that's terrible! When I took Lexi down to Virginia Equine Imaging, they gave me a CD without my even asking!

Don;t know what to advise, other than to send a letter (harder to 'blow off' then a verbal request) specifically requesting copies of the images, stating that you will report them to the states Department of Consumer Affairs, the Better Business Bureau, etc if they do not comply.

[ReeseTheBeast]

Not that I have much experience in these matters, but I'd be looking for a new vet. Yours is being rather shady about this. Either he is willing and able to provide a CD of these x-rays, with or without charging an extra fee for doing so, or he is not. He can't seem to decide which it is and is stringing you along and being rude to boot. No excuse for that.


Shady is right... I actually started to wonder if he perhaps mislabeled or somehow "messed up" the images and that's why he doesn't want to give me the CD. Maybe I'm paranoid but none of this makes any sense, I actually find it to be really bizarre.

:confused:

Does anyone know where I could look up information regarding state veterinary regulations on things like this? I just spoke to my farrier and he said he's pretty sure that by law, I am entitled to a copy of the disc.... I'm not trying to be a jerk about this stuff or overreact but not only did his uncooperation cost me another $1,000; I feel that he is shortchanging me as a client as well as the health of my horse. Not to mention it just being the principal of the thing. I was sweet as pie to that receptionist and have been nothing but respectful and a good client to that vet... this is insane.

To those who have suggested finding a new vet- oh yes indeed, I'm already on that! I've got a few names to work with thus far and will be making calls to find out if they service my area or are willing to take us on as new clients. If anyone knows of any awesome, *knowledgeable* (on new developments, technologies, etc.), respectful, caring vets that service Middle-Southern MD (PG County to be precise), please PM me! :yes:

[Gayla]

Most people walk around looking normal and do pretty well in life. But many are suffering from so many psychological pathologies that they do stupid stuff like this. This vet has some sort of complex about you doing anything beyond what he thinks is right. Get away from him pronto!

[SleepyFox]

No, you are most certainly not out of line. I am not familiar w/ MD, but I'm guessing that since you paid for the images, you probably technically own them. And it is common practice for owners to get copies of x-ray images. I have never heard of a vet claiming they owned the image and thus were unwilling to share it.

In your situation, I would suspect the real issue is that the vet just isn't that comfortable discussing podiatry. If he was upfront about it, it wouldn't bother me in the least - vets can't be experts in everything - but the way he is behaving is just not okay.

I would start shopping for a new vet. :dead:

[SleepyFox]

Most people walk around looking normal and do pretty well in life. But many are suffering from so many psychological pathologies that they do stupid stuff like this. This vet has some sort of complex about you doing anything beyond what he thinks is right. Get away from him pronto!


Ooooh! Ooooh! What Gayla said, too! :)

[Ja Da Dee]

It's my understanding that the x-rays do belong to the vet, but that said, most vets don't have issues sharing them with you, the farrier, or specialists (the University for example).

I would find a new vet who was willing to work with others as a team to ensure the best outcome for your horse. I would also make sure the former vet knew my reasons for never using them again ... let them know they can enjoy the x-rays and the $300 because it's the last they get from your farm.

[ReeseTheBeast]

No, you are most certainly not out of line. I am not familiar w/ MD, but I'm guessing that since you paid for the images, you probably technically own them. And it is common practice for owners to get copies of x-ray images. I have never heard of a vet claiming they owned the image and thus were unwilling to share it.

In your situation, I would suspect the real issue is that the vet just isn't that comfortable discussing podiatry. If he was upfront about it, it wouldn't bother me in the least - vets can't be experts in everything - but the way he is behaving is just not okay.

I would start shopping for a new vet. :dead:

Ironically, he used to be a farrier. :lol:

And I am in agreement with you, it's common practice for owners to get copies of the x-ray images. At this point, he's not even saying he owns them or anything, he's just loafing around and not sending them. I'm really, really frustrated.

And he really, really has his head up his ass. :winkgrin:

[vxf111]

That us beyond unprofessional. I have NEVER had a vet doing digital films refuse to provide them on disc. I've known one who prefer to go back to the home office and clean them up/make a really nice disc rather than doing it in the field-- but never one that refused to give a disc. That's frustrating and I think you'd be better off using another vet.

[War Admiral]

I've never been able to understand the "x-rays belong to the vet" philosophy. And it's not *necessarily* SOP in my neck of the woods, either. Some veterinary practices have given me the originals to keep, others keep the originals for their records but will give me copies for a nominal fee, others charge a pretty fair amount but will still give copies promptly. NONE of the vets in my area, BTW, are capable yet of digitizing them and putting them on a CD. :( (Well, the university vet school probably is, but I don't do business with them if I can help it.)

Anyway, back to the original question:

You need, beyond ANY question, to fire this vet. In the first place he doesn't sound competent, in the second place he doesn't sound like he cares, in the third place his lack of cooperation and due standard of care for your horse are now COSTING you money.

Being me, and being VERY feisty when someone is messing my horse around, I would send him a demand letter by certified mail giving him 10 days to either fork over ALL the x-rays of your horse in his possession, OR refund your $300, letting him know that if he doesn't comply, you will file litigation for reimbursement of ALL expenses incurred to date, including the visit you had to make to the other vet clinic due to his lack of care and refusal to consult with your farrier. Send a copy of this letter to your state veterinary association.

BUT THAT'S JUST ME. I do NOT tolerate my horse being dicked around by a redneck vet. I will say that if you think you will EVER need to call this vet out as a backup in an emergency, you're probably not going to want to follow the path I recommended above. :D :cool: :lol:

I've never had a vet refuse to consult with a farrier, not EVER.

[ReeseTheBeast]

WA- I agree TOTALLY.... I was actually considering going that route... and I'm not worried about burning a bridge. I wouldn't want him crossing mine anyway. :cool:

Thanks everyone for responding, and please, keep it coming!!!

[Seven]

Send a copy of this letter to your state veterinary association.


And perhaps include this section reference from the AVMA Code of Ethical Conduct (emphasis in the original):

VII (D) - Veterinarians are obligated to provide copies or summaries of medical records when requested by the client. Veterinarians should secure a written release to document that request.

cite: http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/ethics.asp

Your letter will serve as the written request.

[LLDM]

Yes, your vet sucks. If you can't get the vet to give you the Xrays any other way, see if the Equine Hospital you used would request them and then give a copy of those as well. Peer pressure might work on this idiot vet of yours.

I have *never* met a vet who won't work with my farrier. Nor one who isn't overjoyed with a farrier who wants Xrays to work from. I can only imagine *this* vet had some sort of major problem with a farrier, or early childhood trauma with one. :lol:

SCFarm

[rescuemom]

I am not familiar w/ MD, but I'm guessing that since you paid for the images, you probably technically own them. And it is common practice for owners to get copies of x-ray images. I have never heard of a vet claiming they owned the image and thus were unwilling to share it.

In theory it would seem right that the client, who paid for the radiographs, owns them, but, in MD and VA at least, the vet owns them.

Although I think this vet is a turkey who must be replaced in the very near future, I can understand a reluctance to share x-rays with a farrier. If the vet doesn't know the farrier he may have concerns that yours is yet another of the "I'm almost a vet and can diagnose stuff" variety. Some farriers don't know what they are looking at on x-rays but will be quite glad to share with the rest of the farrier community that they looked at so and so's x-rays. It's a status thing. :rolleyes:

This doesn't mean your farrier belongs in that group, but it certainly isn't unheard of.

[Horsecrazy27]

SO wierd that x-rays belong to the vet--but you pay for them?????? I have never had this happen to me---but how irritating.

GOOD luck to you!

[Petstorejunkie]

I dont remember all the specifics, but years ago i knew there was some state law that stated something to the effect that a veterinarian had 30 days from recieval of written request to turnover copies of all medical records and xrays... but i am not sure if that varies by state, the actual law, or even if its still in effect... but it's ringing a small bell for me from my SA tech days...

You have the right to choose your farrier and your veterinarian, you dont need me to tell you that ;)

If it were me i would find a vet that cared about my horse in a way i felt satisfactory, that was willing to hear my concerns and educate me. once i found that vet i would send a certified letter to my current vet requesting all medical records to be sent to new vet and be done with it....

Is there anyone else that has heard of this.... or did i dream it up?

[Liberty]

While the x-rays do "belong" to the vet (they're required to keep them on file for x-number of years), it is common courtesy to provide a copy to the client upon request. Whether or not there is a charge for those copies is up to the vet.

I have only had problems one time obtaining x-rays, and that vet ended up giving me the originals (non-digital) since she couldn't be bothered to get copies made (after promising me numerous times that she would). I had to sign a statement confirming that I had them in my possession. I dropped her like a rock.

All other vets have provided copies without hesitation, and in the case of digitals, I've never paid anything for copies. While I did have to have one vet mail the CD to me, others have given me one on the spot. I've also had vets who I scheduled to come do the digital x-rays while my farrier was there so they could discuss the situation.

Yes, dump that idiot vet pronto and find one that cares about your horse's welfare and appreciates a proactive, concerned, and informed client.

Good luck!

[ReeseTheBeast]

And perhaps include this section reference from the AVMA Code of Ethical Conduct (emphasis in the original):

VII (D) - Veterinarians are obligated to provide copies or summaries of medical records when requested by the client. Veterinarians should secure a written release to document that request.

cite: http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/ethics.asp

Your letter will serve as the written request.

NICE.

Thank you.

[chai]

Reese, you might also consider asking the vet to just send you copies of the front hoof xrays as a file attachment. Maybe your vet doesn't know how to burn a disk, or they don't have the equipment. But if it's saved in his computer, it should be easy enough to forward it to you in an email attachment. My vet has done this for me, as well as burning a disk.
I will also suggest that you catch more flies with honey, so before things heat up too much, perhaps you can be extra sweet, call the vet and suggest that there must have been just a little mixup and do the 'let's just try this whole thing again' route. Maybe there was just a little mixup...and the bottom line is you just need the xrays, not a huge blowup with your vet and an upsetting scene for you.
Good luck!

[mjrtango93]

Well I am completely the opposite side of the country then you, but this is the law in CA: The vet does own the original x-rays, however, the owner is entitled to duplicates or a CD or whatever if they are so inclined. Any copies (like if they aren't digital and you have to re-print), or CD are at the owners expense should you do chose, and they are supposed to offer it. We are fortnate to be close to UC Davis and they have always given me copies, or whatever I wanted to take home to my vet, and vice versa. Why is this vet so against helping your horse? I can recommend an incredible vet to you that is on the board at the teaching hospital, but 3000 miles is probably a bit far to trailer! :yes:

[Ride'emCO]

I agree with everyone else that said get a new vet.

I am, however, going to differ on the rest. Life is too effing short to fight someone like this when you've already spent the money on x-rays elsewhere, with a new vet that is willing to work with your farrier. I think you've just paid $300 to learn a valuable lesson ("don't work with this a-hole any further") and you should take the knowledge and run, happy knowing that you won't have to deal with him any longer.

But that's just me. I don't like to fight, and this one looks like it's going to be a long one.

[tidy rabbit]

Wow, this is messed up. Sorry to hear about your problems ReeseTheBeast.

I am going through something similar with one of my horses at the moment.

Here's how things have worked for me, and I think this is a pretty healthy working relationship between vet, farrier & myself.

Vet comes to see horse. Takes digital xrays and shows me way more than I could really understand about what was happening with my horse.

Vet pulls the horses front shoes and gives me orthopedic pads to elastic tape onto her feet.
At 4 weeks of recovery, she is to have her shoes GLUED back on, no nails as she shouldn't have any concussion on her feet for sometime to come. Vet adds the horse to his "rounds" and comes to check up on her after a week. He also called me every day for the first 5 days to make sure things are continuing to look good.

My farrier, unfortunately, left town for a month right after this happened. He called his "backup" and told him all about the horse and what's been going on. The backup farrier called me last night and said he'll schedule an appointment and he just needs to know what the vet wants done.

I call the vet and get detailed instructions to give to the farrier. Very simple process.

I think your vet just doesn't give a crap about your horse. I think you should be given access to all your records. It sounds like everyone in his office has the same crappy "who gives a damn" attitude.

[Blueshadow]

Just a small point - and this does not imply that you aren't entitled to copies of the xrays if you want them because that is probably the case in your state also - but I believe that what you actually pay for is the "labor service" that your vet provides in taking and reading/interpreting the xrays.

And yes, I'd fire that vet for being obviously unwilling to work with your farrier - and being rude to boot.

This case has some echoes of the Texas "equine dentist" thread, to me at least. Maybe your former farrier vet thinks that you should be using him as your farrier - or perhaps another vet.

[Cherry]

Actually, I thought the x-rays belonged to the horse! ;) :lol: Aren't the x-rays supposed to be part of the horse's permanent health record???? :confused:

RTB, I would call and talk to someone at your state veterinary association to get the real story about who owns the x-rays and file a complaint about the way this was handled by your initial vet (if I were you)!!!! That guy sounds pretty arrogant and needs to be smacked down (if that's possible)! :yes: :)

Good luck--let us know if you decide to contact your veterinary association and how this all turns out!!!!

Contact info: (but I would call them, personally!)--

http://www.mdvma.org/contact.htm

[BuddyRoo]

The veterinarian is required in most states to keep the original copy of a radiograph whether digital or film as part of the medical record for a period of time.

However, you are entitled to be given or purchase for a copy fee digital or film.

As a courtesy when getting a second opinion, many veterinarians will let the original copy go to the second opinion veterinarian DIRECTLY but not in the hands of the client. That is a professional courtesy.

In the practice where I worked, people often wanted copies for their own use. We made copies. We used film at the time and we simply charged the client the fee to copy. But we did not send originals down the road. Just like we did not send the original medical records out the door. We made photocopies and kept the original.

Not keeping proper medical records per the state laws is a good way to get in big trouble with the board. You don't send originals out the door EVER.

[Cielo Azure]

We recently left MD but I highly recommend Dr. Mike Odien for lameness issues. He is really good.

When we lived in MD, we used Dr. Sarah Link for non-lameness (colic, diseases, metabolic, etc) and Odien for lameness, wound care.

Both are located close to Westminster/Baltimore areas and will service the Frederick area.

[ReeseTheBeast]

Hmm, would this be a Dr. S?

Ditto what posters have said, radiographs are part of the medical record and must be retained by the vet. (In the olde days, how often do you think radiographs that were lent to the owner, with a promise that they be returned to the vet, actually did get returned? :rolleyes: ) You are entitled to a copy, but the copy doesn't have to be free - you can be charged for copying, postage, time involved, etc.


Yes, this indeed would be. :yes:

I have no problem with him keeping the originals, and obviously would expect that. However, I wasn't asking for the originals, I just wanted a copy of all the digital radiographs of my horse's feet on a CD (like he told me he would provide), whether I had to pay for it or not. I even told the receptionist yesterday that I'd pay whatever their fee(s) is(are), I just want the CD.

They weren't to be used by any other vet as a second opinion or anything, and as a matter of fact the only reason we had to go to a different vet is because we couldn't get the disc with all the copied images from the attending vet.

I completely and totally understand why vets don't/won't send out any original films or digitals (I would be "that guy" who would somehow lose the originals or they'd manage to fly out the window of my car :rolleyes: :lol:)... what I can't understand is why I'm apparently unable to get a copy of them (and am more than willing to pay for it).

:confused:

[BuddyRoo]

Oh, I know you get that....just some people think that because they paid for 'em the first time that it's their property.

The guy sounds like a real piece of work...and a little paranoid/insecure. Goodness.

Oh well....glad you found another place....but I would keep following up. Having baseline radiographs is really beneficial as time passes when you're trying to measure success of treatment.

[ReeseTheBeast]

Oh, I know you get that....just some people think that because they paid for 'em the first time that it's their property.

The guy sounds like a real piece of work...and a little paranoid/insecure. Goodness.

Oh well....glad you found another place....but I would keep following up. Having baseline radiographs is really beneficial as time passes when you're trying to measure success of treatment.


Gotcha, gotcha :)

In talking to him, I get the sense that he's very cocky because he is well aware that he is known as "THE" best vet in this area and very complacent in that. I really did get the feeling that he thinks pretty much all horse owners are idiots and he doesn't like dealing with them. But that's just from my POV, I could be totally wrong.

Although we do have a copy of the x-rays from the 2nd vet, I'd still be interested to see the differences in the two (if any) and also have a baseline for the bone chip and all the other views he took.

Man! Talk about a custody battle! :lol:

[dr j]

SO wierd that x-rays belong to the vet--but you pay for them?????? I have never had this happen to me---but how irritating.

GOOD luck to you!


It's not strange at all that the images belong to the vet. Although the client paid for them, or more accurately paid for the use of the equipment and the veterinarian's interpretation of the images the vet must retain them as part of the complete medical record. If a complaint were filed or the case ended up in court and the vet was asked to produce the records/rads etc, they must produce the originals. I personally would not want to rely on a client to bring images back or worry about tampering with an image etc, therefore since it's my arse on line the originals need to remain in my control for whatever the legal limit for medical records are in that jurisdiction.

On the other hand I provide copies for any owner who wants them, no problem.

In your case- you really do need to find a vet you and your farrier can work with. I wonder if your vet didn't know how to burn a new disc right there and now it's just a pain in the arse. Still he handled it poorly.

I think in the end you are going to be much happier with someone you can work with in a more positive way.

J

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I'm with the group that says, "GET A NEW VET."

Like, yesterday.

[2DogsFarm]

Radiographs may "belong" to the vet, but he should willingly provide you with a copy.
You need a new vet, no customer should be treated like that.

[subk]

To me this situation isn't about who "owns" the radiographs it's about fraud.

You asked him to take radiographs *for the purpose of showing them to your farrier.* Knowing the purpose he took them, charged you, then refused to allow you to use them for the agreed upon purpose. (As long as he understood your purpose before he took the radiographs his consent in taking the ragiographs IS his agreement with the purpose.)

If you wanted to you might have a case in small claims court to at least get your money back. At the very least report his shady business practice to the BBB.

[see u at x]

Gotcha, gotcha :)

In talking to him, I get the sense that he's very cocky because he is well aware that he is known as "THE" best vet in this area and very complacent in that. I really did get the feeling that he thinks pretty much all horse owners are idiots and he doesn't like dealing with them. But that's just from my POV, I could be totally wrong.


No, I think you're pretty much right... ;)

He came out to our barn last fall to visit an ex-boarder's horse, and that was the impression I got of him as well. I'll give him credit in that he knows his stuff, but I think it is a disservice to his clients to NOT openly share his knowledge to those who are willing to learn. Maybe the best way to put it is that he lacks a good "bedside manner" with his patients...

Southern Maryland is a REALLY tough place to be for good vets. We don't have a large selection to choose from, versus when I boarded in Leesburg, there were so many options that my head swam! (I used Dr. Bowman and thought he was fabulous.) My mare is going to have x-rays done in a month or two, and you can bet that I'm not entrusting them to any of the local vets, and certainly NOT RSB's vet, especially after this incident.

[Stacie]

That us beyond unprofessional. I have NEVER had a vet doing digital films refuse to provide them on disc. I've known one who prefer to go back to the home office and clean them up/make a really nice disc rather than doing it in the field-- but never one that refused to give a disc. That's frustrating and I think you'd be better off using another vet.

My vet sends me a disc whether I want it or not :lol:
In the old days, films were kept by the vet, but with digital x-rays it's very easy to make copies and send them out.

[trubandloki]

To me this situation isn't about who "owns" the radiographs it's about fraud.

You asked him to take radiographs *for the purpose of showing them to your farrier.* Knowing the purpose he took them, charged you, then refused to allow you to use them for the agreed upon purpose. (As long as he understood your purpose before he took the radiographs his consent in taking the ragiographs IS his agreement with the purpose.)


Yeah, that is how I look at it too.

The vet knew ahead of time the purpose of the x-rays so by not giving you copies you basically had x-rays taken for no reason.

If he was not willing to provide you with copies for your farrier then he should not have agreed to take the x-rays in the first place.

[Avra]

We went through this a couple of years ago with two horses who were badly misdiagnosed by a vet hospital in southern VA (a bruised stifle that turned out to be a broken pelvis, and a bruised fetlock that turned out to be joint ill) and strangely the clinic was never able to produce the original xrays for either horse because they had been "lost." Our vet said that if he was as bad at diagnosing things, he might lose the proof, too. :)

I know it's a hike, but it may be worth hauling up to Dr. Riddle in Rising Sun if you can't find anyone else. He's great at this kind of stuff.

[ReeseTheBeast]

Yeah, that is how I look at it too.

The vet knew ahead of time the purpose of the x-rays so by not giving you copies you basically had x-rays taken for no reason.

If he was not willing to provide you with copies for your farrier then he should not have agreed to take the x-rays in the first place.

Subk and Trub...

I hadn't thought about it that way (in terms of it being fraud). But it's true that he did know the reason why I wanted the x-rays and you're right in that I basically had x-rays taken for no reason. As a matter of fact, that's what has been so frustrating for me- what the hell was the point?

:confused:

I'll give him today to call me back (receptionist took my information yesterday afternoon) and if I don't hear from him then I'm calling tomorrow to find out what the problem is.

I promise I'll be nice! But I admit it's going to be hard. :winkgrin:

[mp]

he is well aware that he is known as "THE" best vet in this area and very complacent in that.

The best vet in your area thinks a horse with chronic lamenss problems should just have shoes slapped on? Glad I don't live in your neck of the woods. :p

Good luck with getting the Xrays and finding a new vet who can help you keep your boy sound.

[Bluey]

When we had a horse with a coffin fracture, our vet called our farrier right then and talked to him about what he wanted the farrier to do and told him to come by when he is in town and he will show him the x-rays and consult some more about what to do.
At times, he has had the farrier come by and us have the horse there, so they both can determine what is best.

Our vet and farrier work together all the time. I thought all did.:confused:

[BarbB]

I haven't read past the first page, I assume the rest are the same, the vet is being a ______fill in the blank.
If you don't have the xrays by now I would not call anymore or write or otherwise mess around with him. I would go and stand in his office until I had them in my hand. Smile on my face, mouth shut, waiting for the xrays. Asking oh so nicely if they are ready yet about every 10 minutes. Staring at whoever is visible, smiling, remember you are not causing a scene, good customer not disorderly customer.
Hand out, smile, are they ready yet?

Most people cannot stand up to that very long.
It's a version of Chinese water torture.

[ReeseTheBeast]

Our vet and farrier work together all the time. I thought all did.:confused:


I thought so too!

And then found out I thought wrong! ;)

[marta]

please provide the authority for this statement.

it's like human doctors who will not provide you with a copy of your medical records unless you ask to have them sent to another doctor. yet somehow, attorneys can get them by merely submitting a completed release form with patient's signature. go figure...

[Ghazzu]

Count me in with the group who think you need to wave goodbye to this jackass.

Yes, the original images are part of the record, and must be retained by the vet.
However, he is obligated to provide you with copies at a reasonable cost (and frankly, a CD costs less than a dollar, and it takes little time to burn the files. If it were me, I'd simply fold it into the charge for the shots taken and provide one as SOP).

[rileyt]

Yeah - I'm just perplexed by this nonsense about a vet "owning" the X-rays.

I encountered this once before. A track vet who examined my OTTB before I bought him. he was in a different state. I was given the same story.

WHY, by God, would the vet even WANT the X-rays? What good can they possibly be to him. he will never see the horse again.

And I, like marta, would love to see the "authority" for people who say that in MD/VA and other states, the vet "owns" the records.

How crazy!

Can someone shed light on this? or is it just a conspiracy so that you'll HAVE to get them re-taken by Vet #2 (thus adding to the pockets of a colleague).

Preposterous!

[Seven]

please provide the authority for this statement.

it's like human doctors who will not provide you with a copy of your medical records unless you ask to have them sent to another doctor. yet somehow, attorneys can get them by merely submitting a completed release form with patient's signature. go figure...

- because attorneys have subpoena power.

[Ghazzu]

please provide the authority for this statement.

.

How's this?

http://www.cvm.uiuc.edu/petcolumns/showarticle_pf.cfm?id=289

Or, from Missouri law:


20 CSR 2270-4.031 Minimum Standards
for Practice Techniques
PURPOSE: This rule defines the minimum
standards for the delivery of various services.
(1) Radiological Services.
(A) All veterinary facilities must have adequate
diagnostic radiological services, unless
there exists a written agreement to provide
these services through another facility.
(B) A radiograph is the property of the veterinarian
or the veterinary facility which
originally ordered it to be prepared.
However, the radiograph or a copy of it shall
be released within a reasonable time period
upon the request of another treating veterinarian
who has the authorization of the owner
of the animal to which it pertains or directly
to the owner. An original radiograph shall be
returned to the originating veterinarian within
a reasonable time period after written
request. Radiographs originating at an emergency
hospital or clinic shall become the
property of the next attending veterinary
facility upon receipt. Documented proof of
transfers of radiographs shall be verifiable.
(C) Radiographs should be stored and
maintained for a minimum of five (5) years.
All exposed radiographic films shall have a
permanent identification, legibly exposed in
the film emulsion, which will include the following:
1. The hospital or clinic name or facility
permit number;
2. The identity of the person taking the
radiograph;
3. Client identification;
4. Patient identification; and
5. The date the radiograph was taken.


Similar statues are in force in most, if not all, states.

[Appassionato]

Went through almost exactly the same thing...

Farrier A messed up and my horse foundered. Vet A would NOT come to the farm, wanted me to take Bo to him because he didn't have a portable unit. Didn't have another vet that came to my area with an x-ray unit. Bo went without x-rays from Nov. '05 until June '06. Finally bo was actually able to make the trip. We didn't go earlier because the horse was on and off lame and I feared a worse founder as a result from a trailer ride...of which the vet agreed was possible, I might add.

Vet A pulls out a portable x-ray unit that does hard copies. Yes, portable. I was mad, but I let it go, I wanted help for my horse. Got the x-rays and the shock of my life at the distance his P3s dropped. Paid for the x-rays, Farrier A was with us and discussed shoeing options for the horse. Vet happens to also shoe, but only certain "life threatening pathologies." Ok, here's my sign I know, but there is no such thing as good help in my area. We get the idea of where to go now, Vet keeps hard copies, no problem.

Until I started recognizing problems in my horse's shoeing. I couldn't put my finger on just WHAT was wrong, but it was wrong. I post shots of the hooves, get feedback, and ultimately get to talking with Jaye Perry. We set a date for my horse to go to him (3 hours one way). Jaye lets me know that we will still need new x-rays, no prob. He can pick the vet.

Before I go to Jaye's, I'm arguing back and forth with Vet A's equally snitty secretary about whether or not I can take pics of the x-rays!!! What?!?! Are you kidding me? I finally say, "Tell Dr. ____ he can refund my money, or let me take the pics." After much arguing and me actin'afool, I get to take pics. Only of the x-rays that Vet A deems appropriate though...in any case they did serve as a comparative in that we could tell when Bo went to Jaye in Oct. '06, no more sinking had occured since June '06. I think I was the only person squealling with joy because my horse had at least not gotten worse! Then Jaye's vet pulled a good one on me and took D/V shots...whew, I felt sick instantly. ;)

I've had no more contact with Vet A, and thankfully another equine vet is in the area. I was thankfully able to smile the last time I spoke with Vet A and snitty secretary and say, "Thanks so much for letting me get pics! I'm hoping they help the new vet (Jaye's vet)!!!" :winkgrin:

So yeah, some people just stink RTB. Vet A and your vet are the same: control freaks. They can't take the fact that someone else just might be able to do the same work or even better. Big fish in a little pond scenario. Just be glad you aren't as small as they are and that Reese is going to be OK. :) And of course, find a new a vet. :lol:

[Ghazzu]

Yeah - I'm just perplexed by this nonsense about a vet "owning" the X-rays.

I encountered this once before. A track vet who examined my OTTB before I bought him. he was in a different state. I was given the same story.

WHY, by God, would the vet even WANT the X-rays? What good can they possibly be to him. he will never see the horse again.

The vet doesn't know that.
There has been more than one case of an owner suing the vet who did a PPE because the animal later went lame and the owner maintained the problem was pre-existing and the vet missed it on the PPE.
Radiographs can be evidence in such a case, and if the vet doesn't have properly labelled original radiographs, he can be in deep doo-doo.



And I, like marta, would love to see the "authority" for people who say that in MD/VA and other states, the vet "owns" the records.

Take 10 minutes to look up the practice regulations for your home state. They're probably on line.


How crazy!


Not crazy at all. Perfectly sensible.


Can someone shed light on this? or is it just a conspiracy so that you'll HAVE to get them re-taken by Vet #2 (thus adding to the pockets of a colleague).

Preposterous!

Right. Because everyone knows that we're all just rolling in money that we've squeezed from the poor defenseless horse owners.

I think the DVM referenced by the OP is a jerk.
But that is beside the point when considering the integrity of the medical record as a legal document.

[Seven]

Yeah - I'm just perplexed by this nonsense about a vet "owning" the X-rays.

And I, like marta, would love to see the "authority" for people who say that in MD/VA and other states, the vet "owns" the records.



As a general rule, it's just above the copying provision in the AVMA Code of Ethical Conduct I posted earlier (as well as a matter of individual state law).

VII (B) - Medical Records are the property of the practice and the practice owner. The original records must be retained by the practice for the period required by statute.

http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/ethics.asp

[ReeseTheBeast]

Vet A pulls out a portable x-ray unit that does hard copies. Yes, portable.

Asspants, I would have gone off.

Like you said, you didn't have a choice so I totally understand... but ARRRRGH! :mad:

This is the kind of stuff that makes me feel like Jack Rebney: The Angriest Man in the World.

[Manes&Tails]

The vet should have been thrilled to help a client and farrier work together to make life better for the horse! After all that is why he became a vet in the first place!:eek:

I would find another vet. I don't understand his way of thinking and acting!

Hope all goes well for you and your horse.

Thank you for being a caring horse owner!;)

[marta]

so originals are his but he's supposed to provide copies to the owner.
so give'em up dude!

[Appassionato]

Asspants, I would have gone off.

Like you said, you didn't have a choice so I totally understand... but ARRRRGH! :mad:

This is the kind of stuff that makes me feel like Jack Rebney: The Angriest Man in the World.

Oh yes ma'am, I'm still not completely over all that. Yes, Bo needed new x-rays period. I only wanted to take a picture of the hard copies for a comparison for crying out loud. THAT wasn't going to cost them one red cent! Why the hard time? In your case, I just don't see it as a big deal to email you the x-rays...what would that cost them? Other than a few minutes? They are control freaks that just can't stand it that you don't worship them.

Want to hear a really good one? This same vet did a friend of mine no favors. She called the office and told them she had a 30 YO horse that had gotten down and could not get up. She was OK with the possibility of it taking a few hours for him to make it to her farm if that was the soonest he could come; she could NOT get this horse up by herself. The snitty secretary responds, "Well can you bring him in?" :eek: What?!?! he can't get UP, that's why she called!!! I don't know how the man stays in business except for one thing: many of his customers are idiots. I a few of them. They think he's just swell. <gag>

[Proud To Be Spotted]

I haven't read past the first page, I assume the rest are the same, the vet is being a ______fill in the blank.
If you don't have the xrays by now I would not call anymore or write or otherwise mess around with him. I would go and stand in his office until I had them in my hand. Smile on my face, mouth shut, waiting for the xrays. Asking oh so nicely if they are ready yet about every 10 minutes. Staring at whoever is visible, smiling, remember you are not causing a scene, good customer not disorderly customer.
Hand out, smile, are they ready yet?

Most people cannot stand up to that very long.
It's a version of Chinese water torture.

I second this. It always works. Just sit down, bring in something to drink and if you really want to piss them off, pull a good book out of your purse. Every 15 min. or so get up and ask them if your copies are ready. I would also get copies of all your medical records, if you dont have them already, to bring to your new vet.

[texasbound]

When I worked for a vet, we had clients call for copies of the xrays.

The xrays are legally the vets, but we would have copies made & charge the client a nominal fee for the copy. We kept the originals.

By all means, you should have the option to obtain a copy of the xrays.

[Ghazzu]

so originals are his but he's supposed to provide copies to the owner.
so give'em up dude!

And didn't I say just that?

[Dalfan]

Every 15 min. or so get up and ask them if your copies are ready.

Take along a couple of not so well-mannered children as well. That might light a fire under them.:yes::)

[marta]

i was just sort of reading out loud, didn't mean for it to sound as if i was saying you didn't say so.

and btw, thanks for the enlightning cite.

And didn't I say just that?

[donkeyman]

15.14.01.10

.10 Record Keeping.
A. For animals that a veterinarian treats, the veterinarian shall prepare a legibly written record that accurately and thoroughly reflects the treatment provided. At a minimum, the veterinarian's record shall include the following information, as applicable:

(1) If available, the name, address, and phone number of the animal's owner;

(2) If available, the name and identity of the animal;

(3) If available, the age, sex, and breed of the animal;

(4) The dates (beginning and ending) of custody of the animal;

(5) A short history of the animal's condition as it pertains to the animal's medical status;

(6) The animal's physical condition at the beginning of custody and the initial diagnosis, if any;

(7) The animal's condition, as evidenced through a physical examination, not more than 12 hours before administration of one of the following:

(a) Anesthetic;

(b) Sedative; or

(c) Tranquilizing agent.

(8) The treatment provided the animal and if medication is given, the following shall be provided:

(a) Amount;

(b) Frequency; and

(c) Route of administration;

(9) The progress and disposition of the case; and

(10) The surgery log and anesthetic log, if any.

B. The veterinarian shall record the information referenced in §A of this regulation in a timely manner, that is, as soon as practicable after the veterinarian has seen the animal.

C. If the veterinarian discovers that the record is incomplete or in error, the veterinarian shall amend the record, being sure to date and initial the amendment.

D. A veterinarian shall label each radiograph with the patient's name, the owner's name, and the date the radiograph was taken.

E. Patient records shall be kept by a veterinarian for 3 years after a patient's last visit.

F. Patient Records.

(1) Patients' records are the property of the veterinary practice for whom the records were made.

(2) If requested by a patient's owner, the veterinarian shall release a copy of an animal's written record to the owner or a subsequent treating veterinarian. The veterinarian may require the owner to pay the reasonable cost of providing the records requested.

(3) If requested by a patient's owner, the veterinarian shall release temporarily to a subsequent treating veterinarian the original nonwritten record of the animal, such as, but not limited to, radiographs, photographs, electrocardiograms, and slides. The subsequent treating veterinarian shall return these original nonwritten records within 30 days of their receipt or such other time as agreed to by the parties.

(4) Upon request and if known, a veterinarian shall inform a boarding facility, including a veterinary hospital offering boarding services, which is boarding a veterinarian's patient, whether the animal's vaccinations are current.

G. The requirements of this regulation apply to companion pet animals only.


As Noted in the Maryland code 15.14.01.10 it says the vet SHALL release the written record at the owners request, however, it does say written and not radiogrpahic and that may be semantics. I need to check one more thing for you.

[citydog]

I think it sounds like the vet messed something up (didn't save files, accidentally deleted something) and doesn't want to admit it.

I'd find a new vet and challenge the charge on my credit card. You got x-rays for the purpose of showing to the farrier, right? You didn't get what you paid for.

How frustrating!

[Twiliath]

The x-rays belong to YOU! You paid for them; they're YOURS! They may be part of your horse's medical history, but they belong to YOU! They do NOT belong to the vet. If you had x-rays taken of any part of your body, those x-rays belong to YOU!

I just requested the digital copies of the x-rays taken of my horse and my vet happily supplied me with them. They even asked if I needed them FedExed! I live 30 min. away. I didn't need them that fast.

I also work for a vet who says i have every right to request the x-rays or copies.

You need to replace your lousy "vet."

[donkeyman]

Who Owns Radiographs?
by: Norman W. Rantanen, DVM
June 01 2001, Article # 406
ARTICLE TOOLSPrint Email
Republish Link




My vet took some X rays of my horse's legs. I paid the bill in full, but when I asked for the X rays, he said they belonged to him and not me. Is this correct? If I'm charged for the X rays, why can't I have them?

Many veterinarians run into this situation, not only equine veterinarians. To the client, it makes sense that he or she would own the radiographs (X rays) since, in the client's opinion, he or she paid for them. However, the images themselves (the film or other medium) remain the property of the veterinarian who ordered or took the radiographs. The diagnosis which is the result of the radiographs is the service the client has paid for. The notion that "I paid for them and they're mine" just is not a valid argument either legally or professionally when it comes to obtaining original copies of radiographs. The reason the radiographs are kept by the veterinarian is so there is a complete medical history of the horse on record. Maintaining complete records is not exclusive to equine medicine; it works the same way in human medicine. Also, it is required by law that veterinarians keep radiographs on file for a specific period of time, which will vary by state.

Owners, trainers, or other parties concerned with the radiographs are entitled to copies, prints, or other duplication documents, if they are granted permission by the party responsible for ordering the radiographs to be taken. This is true for not only radiographs, but any medical records on the horse.

Owners and trainers often have been given the originals by their veterinarians. This is a habit that is hard to break. Many owners or trainers think that receiving the originals is normal business practice since that is what they are accustomed to. Veterinarians need to keep the original radiographs so a complete medical history of the horse's medical records, including images, is available for future use. On the positive side, with the increased use of digital images, some of these problems with original radiograph ownership are improving.

A concern many horse owners and trainers have is that if they do not obtain the original radiographs, disclosure of a horse's problems might be revealed to those who are in the position to buy the horse. You must remember, veterinarians are not allowed to disclose any health information about a horse without the owner's permission.

As with most controversial issues, communication (usually the veterinarian's responsibility) with the owner or trainer can alleviate the problem. Also remember, ample time and preparation should be allowed for sufficient image duplication to satisfy all parties involved.

One discouraging part of the radiograph problem comes into play when a veterinarian, or for that matter an owner or trainer, requests that radiographs be sent to him/her by the veterinarian or equine hospital that has taken the films. If the second veterinarian then gives the radiographs to the owner or trainer either because the owner or trainer demands them or it is that veterinarian's practice to hand over the originals, the situation re-sults in a more complicated professional dilemma.

Legally, the veterinarian who took or ordered the radio-graphs owns them. In this day of easy duplication or manipulation of images, there is little reason why a client, agent, owner, etc. can't have the information he or she needs or requires while the veterinarian upholds his/her professional requirements for maintaining a complete medical history of the horse.

As I mentioned earlier, this is not a problem that is unique to equine veterinarians or veterinarians in general. It also occurs in human medicine, where a great effort is placed on the maintenance of complete medical records. Images are frequently "lost," "misplaced," "misfiled," or given out to patients without adequate documentation or safeguards to ensure they will be returned.

[SLW]

I would dump the vet quicker than last weeks garbage based on his dismissive behavior. to you and farriers. Add in the unorganized factor of the office and I'd be gone.

If you do the office waiting thing, which is really a pretty good idea, skip bringing ill-behaved kids because that will them ammo towards you. A drink, a book and a smile. :)

[ReeseTheBeast]

I would dump the vet quicker than last weeks garbage based on his dismissive behavior. to you and farriers. Add in the unorganized factor of the office and I'd be gone.

If you do the office waiting thing, which is really a pretty good idea, skip bringing ill-behaved kids because that will them ammo towards you. A drink, a book and a smile. :)


And perhaps one of those middle-finger crops. :winkgrin: :cool:

[Appassionato]

Actually, I like the small children idea. If I were the snitty secretary, my patience would be lost in 5 minutes and *I* would threaten my boss (aka the vet) with death and destruction if something didn't change and SOON, namingly copies of x-rays even if *I* had to pay for the CD! :lol:

As mad as you are RTB, and believe me I understand why, you're going to possibly need new x-rays in the future as Reese heals (healing can be very interesting to say the least). I know you've heard it a 1000 times, but find a new vet (thankfully for me, I just use Jaye's vet as far as major advice and definately for founder so no biggie), period. See who all Brian knows vet-wise and move from there. If there is something inbetween you and him, perfect. Hey, I travel 3 hours one way to get Bo's x-rays and shod by Jaye, so cry me a handful girlfriend! :winkgrin::lol:

[Ghazzu]

The x-rays belong to YOU! You paid for them; they're YOURS! They may be part of your horse's medical history, but they belong to YOU! They do NOT belong to the vet. If you had x-rays taken of any part of your body, those x-rays belong to YOU!

I just requested the digital copies of the x-rays taken of my horse and my vet happily supplied me with them. They even asked if I needed them FedExed! I live 30 min. away. I didn't need them that fast.

Stamp you little foot and use all the exclamation points you want--the plain fact of the matter is that the radiographs are not the property of the owner but of the veterinarian.
*Copies* of those originals are something the owner is entitled to at a resonable charge.


I also work for a vet who says i have every right to request the x-rays or copies.

See? You knew it all along.

[see u at x]

I mentioned this to my barn buddy earlier on the phone and she thought, like some others have mentioned, that perhaps he screwed things up somehow and now doesn't want to admit it. Also, she said, "good for you!" that you found a farrier who is willing to take such a detailed interest in how best to help your horse. :)

[ReeseTheBeast]

Yeah, both me and my farrier have thought for a while now that there may have been some kind of mess-up with the x-rays and that's why he's not handing over the copies.

Regardless, it would be much easier on everyone involved if he would just tell me what the problem is (assuming there even is one :rolleyes:).

Oh, and for those suggesting to get other x-rays, I already have! Per my OP, I had to go to a different clinic last week to see a new vet and get new x-rays and it cost me about $1000... now, had he just given me the copy I asked for in the first place, I wouldn't have had to do that. :yes:

The reason I want the copies of the x-rays he took (original vet) is because a) there were different angles/shots taken than at the 2nd (new dr.) vet appointment and because b) I paid for them. :winkgrin:

That said, I am still in the search for a new local vet and will be calling around hopefully today (depending on what gets dropped on my desk here at work) to get an idea of who will service my area for routine issues or farm emergencies out of the list of names I've had recommended to me.

The vet and the clinic we visited last week were fantastic, can't say enough good things about them. However, a vet who is 1.5 hours away isn't exactly "local." ;)

I'm going to call the clinic again today since I didn't hear back from the vet (original attending) yesterday or the day before. Depending on the course of the conversation, I may just have to [very sweetly] inform the receptionist that I am well aware of my rights as a client and that I am legally entitled to the copies I am asking for (and have agreed to pay for as necessary). And if there is a problem with that or any questions as to the legitimacy of my assertions, I can have a certified letter delivered early next week from my attorney. To a lot of people, $300 probably isn't a lot of money but to me it is... besides, I'm tired of getting dicked around and I want to do something about it. What he's doing is *not* ok.

I would love to just go and sit in the office with a book, a middle finger crop and a smile, but I work 3 jobs. Momma doesn't have time for all that. :winkgrin:

[grayarabpony]

I would think this would be true of veterinarians as it is with doctors; I would report him to the board that issued his license. Yes he legally owns the x-rays but he has no right to deny you copies.

[Spoilsport]

Interesting topic. It looks like the OP has it under control :winkgrin:, but I thought it was worth repeating this:

F. Patient Records.

(2) If requested by a patient's owner, the veterinarian shall release a copy of an animal's written record to the owner or a subsequent treating veterinarian. The veterinarian may require the owner to pay the reasonable cost of providing the records requested.

(3) If requested by a patient's owner, the veterinarian shall release temporarily to a subsequent treating veterinarian the original nonwritten record of the animal, such as, but not limited to, radiographs, photographs, electrocardiograms, and slides. The subsequent treating veterinarian shall return these original nonwritten records within 30 days of their receipt or such other time as agreed to by the parties.

X-rays are not written records, so not exactly covered by F(2). A farrier isn't a "subsequent treating veterinarian," so F(3) doesn't exactly apply either.

Don't you hate it when the rules don't cover all bases? My guess is the regs were written before the days of digital x-rays. The vet in the OP is unquestionably a jerk :mad: but technically could argue he is complying with the letter of the law.

[Sandy M]

Persistence until you get what you want, followed by a hunt for a new vet would seem to be in order.

My vet, my farrier and I are a TEAM. If the team isn't working together then the part not working needs to be replaced.

Good luck, keep hammering.


Lady at our barn's horse had mechanical founder. Vet clinic had absolutely no hesitation in providing her farrier with copies of the x-rays so that he could shoe the horse properly, and indeed, consulted with him on what needed to be done. I know some vets are not that cooperative, but in this case I, too, would find a new vet.

[trubandloki]

I would love to just go and sit in the office with a book, a middle finger crop and a smile, but I work 3 jobs.

Every time I read that I laugh and smile. It is quite the mental image. A woman with a middle finger crop and a book trying to look sane. :lol:


I like your plan of attack.

I agree that most likely he messed up something and all he had was the one shot. And heck, since he billed you $300 if he admits that he has to give the money back.

He sure sounds like an A-1 jerk.

Good luck, keep us posted!


(still giggling at the book and middle finger crop mental image)

[Appassionato]

X-rays are not written records, so not exactly covered by F(2). A farrier isn't a "subsequent treating veterinarian," so F(3) doesn't exactly apply either.

Don't you hate it when the rules don't cover all bases? My guess is the regs were written before the days of digital x-rays. The vet in the OP is unquestionably a jerk :mad: but technically could argue he is complying with the letter of the law.

However there was another vet involved, so...

(3) If requested by a patient's owner, the veterinarian shall release temporarily to a subsequent treating veterinarian the original nonwritten record of the animal, such as, but not limited to, radiographs...

...this makes it so that he could have been forced to provide originals to the new vet she used. Chances are he knows the law and hides just on the other side of it. I'm not trying to say you are wrong, Spoilsport, but chances are he knew this option was available. I feel he probably chose against it because of Reese's story which has been documented by a farrier I know of. My "vet A" chose against it. I can't imagine that I found the only true A-hole on the planet...:lol:

[trubandloki]

Any progress in getting copies of your x-rays?

[ReeseTheBeast]

Not yet... I'm sending a certified letter to the #1 vet this week along with copies of the receipts from the 2nd vet I had to visit since #1 wouldn't cooperate.

I still haven't even received a returned phone call!!

It really pisses me off for a variety of reasons (obviously) but now even moreso because it's not like I don't already have 1,000 other things to do besides chase this a$$hole around to make sure he does his job, you know?

:mad:

Anyway, I will definitely let everyone know of any developments... Updates ensue, stay tuned! ;)

[x]

I've run into the occasional run-around by a vet similar to the OPs. Usually, when that is the case, I'll show up in the office...amazing when there's an annoyed person in the office how quickly things get sorted out...especially, in the OPs case, where the vet stated he was sending a copy and she never got it...

[Sing Mia Song]

The Maryland State Veterinary Code (http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/idq_files/search.idq) is online. The key parts of the regulation are below:

15.14.01.10
.10 Record Keeping.

F. Patient Records.
(1) Patients' records are the property of the veterinary practice for whom the records were made.
(2) If requested by a patient's owner, the veterinarian shall release a copy of an animal's written record to the owner or a subsequent treating veterinarian. The veterinarian may require the owner to pay the reasonable cost of providing the records requested.
(3) If requested by a patient's owner, the veterinarian shall release temporarily to a subsequent treating veterinarian the original nonwritten record of the animal, such as, but not limited to, radiographs, photographs, electrocardiograms, and slides. The subsequent treating veterinarian shall return these original nonwritten records within 30 days of their receipt or such other time as agreed to by the parties.


So, technically, he may not have to release the radiographs to you, only the written record. But you could find another vet that is more sympathetic to your situation, request that the radiographs be released to that person, then copy them before returning them.

The kicker here is section G:

G. The requirements of this regulation apply to companion pet animals only.

You're sending the certified letter, which may get you what you want, but the ace in your pocket is to file a complaint with the State Board of Veterinary Medical Examiners (http://www.mda.state.md.us/about_mda/boards_comms/md_veterinary_examiners.php). See the clickable links at the top of the page for how to file a complaint and the form to file.

The best thing you can do right now is to document the phone calls to the vet's office (dates, times, general line of conversation). Write down everything you can remember about the whole situation, with as much detail as possible. Keep your paper copies that seem to indicate that the images are of the same foot. The board may not care that he refused to release the rads to a farrier, but they will look very poorly on him releasing a false record, if in fact the copies are of only one foot but purported to be of each foot. That action could cause direct harm to the patient, and that may legally be termed malpractice (I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV).

I'm a Registered Veterinary Technician, and I have never encoutered a situation in which we refused to provide the radiographs or the written record, though we do charge for making copies of rads.

[ReeseTheBeast]

Mia-

Thanks for the info :yes:

Actually, I had already seen that, but I had also seen regulation that the veterinarian is obligated to provide the client with a copy of the originals on request.

That said, I've already got my list of documentation (dates, etc) as you suggested and am also planning on contacting the State Board.

Thanks again for your insight! And I'm glad to hear that your clinic does not operate like this vet's. :winkgrin: :lol: :cool:

[riverbell93]

That said, I've already got my list of documentation (dates, etc) as you suggested and am also planning on contacting the State Board.

:) He really chose the wrong person to be a jerk to, didn't he? Good for you.

To return to the whole argument about who owns x-rays, etc. - I ran into a similar x-ray debate at the (human) dentist. I didn't understand why I couldn't get the x-rays, and I asked why I couldn't have the originals. Instead of offering the fairly simple explanation: "Legally, we're required to keep your x-rays as part of your file, as it constitutes a record of our treatment, and a defense against any future claims" the office staff repeated "We can't give them to you; you can order copies" over and over. I persisted, politely, and kept saying "You know, I just don't understand why not." and they finally sent for the head of the practice, who also chose to not answer my question, but repeat the mantra. I finally had to get my answer online, where I discovered that they are required to keep the originals.
I would have accepted a good explanation; the run-around, and the sense that I wasn't important enough to bother talking to, really helped me decide that changing dentists was a great idea. It's bad enough when they're too indifferent to bother answering a questions about my records, but what guarantee do I have they'll be any more caring or involved when I'm asking a question about a diagnosis?

[Sing Mia Song]

Instead of offering the fairly simple explanation: "Legally, we're required to keep your x-rays as part of your file, as it constitutes a record of our treatment, and a defense against any future claims" the office staff repeated "We can't give them to you; you can order copies" over and over.

They probably didn't know why. We run into it all the time with newbie staff who also think that the owners should be able to take the originals.

Legally, the medical record belongs to the veterinary practice. What you as a client are paying for is the professional interpretation of the radiographs.

We do send originals with the client when referring them for consultation. We make them sign them out, however.

Just think of it this way: you have a client who presents their animal for a problem. You, as the vet, take x-rays and make a diagnosis. The client says, "Well, I'd like a second opinion; can I take these x-rays with me and bring them back later?" You say fine, but don't make them sign them out.

The second vet sees something entirely different on the radiographs. The client gets all fired up and decides you're guilty of malpractice. How do you prove that you took those radiographs and what you saw on them to substantiate your diagnosis? The radiographs are gone from your hospital and you have no documentation saying where they went. This calls into question your management practices, and a lawyer is going to have a field day with you in court.

Believe me, this whole scenario has played itself out hundreds of times, and still does when the front desk staff forgets to have the client sign the forms. And that, my friends, is why the practice officially owns the radiographs.

[Pony Fixer]

I have not read the entire thread.

I agree your previous vet sounds like a jerk, and clearly it's best to move on.

However, he may know (or not know) your farrier and therefore be cautious about any advice from that farrier.

Regarding the rads, they must stay with the record. With digitals, it is so easy to copy I'm not sure of his hang up. Back when we were all "old school" you only had the one set (or a significant cost to make copies), so we might lend them to you if you signed a release saying you'd bring them back. Frequently, however, people wanted to hang on to them once they had them, and this was a difficult situation.

I actually had a client that was pissed because when we radiographed a joint years apart, we did not have the originals for comparison. Guess what--she had requested them and never returned them--but somehow it was still our fault!!!

Good luck to you--can you visit his office in person? You can even bring a blank CD and then he really has no excuse....

[Brio]

joining this late but it really emphasizes what we've been hearing for the past 2 weeks in lectures - Clients truly cannot evaluate your knowledge. They don't know how much you know. They know how much you care. You don't need to know everything there is to know, they understand. You just have to care about them and the patient.

[freshman]

Yeah - I'm just perplexed by this nonsense about a vet "owning" the X-rays.

I encountered this once before. A track vet who examined my OTTB before I bought him. he was in a different state. I was given the same story.

WHY, by God, would the vet even WANT the X-rays? What good can they possibly be to him. he will never see the horse again.

And I, like marta, would love to see the "authority" for people who say that in MD/VA and other states, the vet "owns" the records.

How crazy!

Can someone shed light on this? or is it just a conspiracy so that you'll HAVE to get them re-taken by Vet #2 (thus adding to the pockets of a colleague).

Preposterous!

The vet can be sued by the old owner that had him take the radiographs if he releases info to you w/o writtem permission. Many asshats use them to sue sellers, and the vet does not want to get in the middle.

He doesn't WANT the radiographs. He doesn't sit around at night and view them for his pleasure. Nor does he care that you spend money to have radiographs done by another vet. Not a conspiracy; vet's don't care that much about other vets. It isn't a club.

[TB or not TB?]

I would have accepted a good explanation; the run-around, and the sense that I wasn't important enough to bother talking to, really helped me decide that changing dentists was a great idea. It's bad enough when they're too indifferent to bother answering a questions about my records, but what guarantee do I have they'll be any more caring or involved when I'm asking a question about a diagnosis?

I work in an Audiology office, and we have had this come up several times. We explain why we need to keep their records (state law) and most are just fine with this. However we did have one person FREAK OUT and start cursing at the doctor about how we couldn't keep his records and it was a conspiracy, etc. Then he stabbed the doctor in the chest with a pen. Doctor was an ex marine though and put the guy down...

Not what we expected from an 87 year old man! But similar incidents may have happened to other people and they are not as comfortable going through the explanation anymore. Heck, if it wasn't for my axe-throwing ability, I wouldn't do it either :D

[SmplySweet1021]

This is shocking..I work for the largest equine hospital in the US and we have had questions for duplicate disks or cd's and have put them in the mail or held them for the client...no problems no questions asked. It's just so odd for me to hear a vet doing that when I know with our 60-70 vets here we have no problem doing it!

[FlashGordon]

joining this late but it really emphasizes what we've been hearing for the past 2 weeks in lectures - Clients truly cannot evaluate your knowledge. They don't know how much you know. They know how much you care. You don't need to know everything there is to know, they understand. You just have to care about them and the patient.

Brio that is oh so true. I don't expect my vet to KNOW everything, but I do expect her to validate my concerns and try to find a solution... or else point me in the right direction, if she does not know the answers. Above all else I just want her to care about my animal and the fact that I have a lot invest emotionally and personally and financially, as all of us horse owners do....

Reese, hope the big guy is feeling better. Been thinking about you both this week and wondering how he is doing with his pretty new feet.

Still going in circles with my horse but spoke to the farrier and vet this week and think we have a plan of attack so just waiting for a confirmed date. Crossing my fingers he comes sound...

[vali]

I would consider filing something in small claims court, if you are sure you will never use this vet again. They have the right to keep the originals, but I think they are obligated to provide copies on request to your new vet, although most vets will also give you a copy (or the cd directly). They will usually charge you for a copy, although they shouldn't charge you (or very minimal charge) for the cd. My vet always works with the farrier and shows him copies of the x-rays, but she's very into feet. She also gives him specific instructions on what she wants him to do.

I had a similar situation in that the expensive clinic where I did a full set of prepurchase digital x-rays lost all the x-rays. Luckily I had copies made of most of the films for my regular vet, but otherwise I would have lost about $800 worth of x-rays, and they didn't seem eager to replace them.

[trubandloki]

I would consider filing something in small claims court, if you are sure you will never use this vet again.

I would consider filing in small claims court no matter what at this point.

Like I said before. The vet KNEW up front the entire purpose of taking the x-rays was to provide them for your farrier to look at. The vet did not provide you with x-rays for the farrier so they did not do as asked, you deserve your money back!

[ReeseTheBeast]

Ok guys, so far nothing new to report. I mean, I still haven't gotten a returned phone call since calling almost 2 weeks ago, but that's really par for the course at this point; hence "nothing new to report." :winkgrin:

I've been swamped at work this week and haven't been able to start the letter I'm planning on sending as certified. That said, I'm also suffering a terrible case of writer's block and really am not even sure where to begin.

Anyone have any advice or suggestions as to what the letter needs to/should say? For example: should times and dates of conversations and requests be included within the text of the letter, or should they not be specified at this point?

Also, should the complaint with the State Board be placed prior to, or at the same time of the letter being sent? And I'm still debating on whether or not to seek reparations for the other $1,000+ in bills I've had to pay due to the vet not giving me the copy of the images as requested (his lack of cooperation forced me to have to take my horse elsewhere at a much greater cost). I'm sure that's 'small claims court' territory, but I'm not sure if that should even be mentioned to the vet at this point.

Ah! Any commentary appreciated :yes:

Thanks everyone!

[Pony Fixer]

Just FYI re: the vet med board (not to dissuade you, just so you know).

It will take them MONTHS to come to any resolution. They will initially review your complaint, then send such to the vet with a given time frame to respond, then review his/her response, and come to a conclusion.

Likely unless gross negligence can be proven, nothing will happen (if the office says they were sent but must have been lost enroute, etc.). If he does not have rads himself, etc. that's a whole other kettle of fish, but FYI.

[Erin Pittman]

I bet I know who this Dr. S is - very proud of the new fancy digital x-ray machine. I might even have an idea of who the farrier is. I'd LOVE a PT with the names. If I am right about Dr. S's identity, I find his behavior with your horse kind of odd since he recently did a prepurchase at my farm and made a CD of the images on the spot for the buyer. I agree that you should try to get the images - I wish you much luck and I hope your farrier (and new vet) can help your horse be comfortable!

As for the letter, start it something like this...

Dear Dr. S -

I am writing to you to formally request a CD of the radiograph images you took of my horse on X date. At the time, you told me you would make a copy on CD and drop them by the barn, yet I have not received said CD. I appreciated the print-outs you sent on X date, however, they were not adequate in helping my farrier determine the best way to shoe my horse due to..... Because of this, I had to take my horse to X hospital, at a cost of $... (copy of receipt enclosed) to get a new set of x-rays. As an aside, said hospital did provide both me and my farrier with a CD of the radiograph images to keep for our records. Per Maryland State law (code number, etc.)...blah blah blah.

[railijumper28]

First, I would find a new vet. Something isn't right. Are you sure he even took the x-ray's? Maybe he just took that 1? Idk. Second, try calling the vet hospital, and have that doctor try calling your soon to be ex-vet, saying they need the x-rays, and that maybe you vet wouldn't mind sending them a copy, and of course, they'll pay the fee....Or, does your vet run his own office, because if he has a superior, I suggest you go to them.

Also, my mom works for an equine vet. The vets keep records of all x-rays. However, if at anytime the said client would like a copy of the x-ray, they must provide it. He has also said many times that, even if he didn't have to, he would, he owes it to his clients. Unhappy clients = no clients.

[Sing Mia Song]

I've been swamped at work this week and haven't been able to start the letter I'm planning on sending as certified. That said, I'm also suffering a terrible case of writer's block and really am not even sure where to begin.


Today's date (very important)

Dear Dr. S:

This is a formal request for the release of radiographs taken of my horse [insert name] on [insert date]. The original radiographs or a CD therof should be sent to [insert name and address of new veterinary practice]. Original radiographs, if sent, will be returned in a timely fashion. Please advise me as soon as possible of any shipping charges by calling me at [insert phone]. (Alternatively, you could sign up for a Fed Ex account online and provide them with the account numner so that you can be billed directly)

OR

This is a formal request for the release of radiographs taken of my horse [insert name] on [insert date]. I will arrive at your office at [insert time] on [insert date] to pick up a CD copy of these digital radiographs and a written copy of my medical record. If there is any charge for this service, please advise me by calling [insert phone].


Don't include any extraneous information. Just a simple, direct request will be best. Send the letter certified with return receipt, and send one through regular mail at the same time.

Also, should the complaint with the State Board be placed prior to, or at the same time of the letter being sent? And I'm still debating on whether or not to seek reparations for the other $1,000+ in bills I've had to pay due to the vet not giving me the copy of the images as requested (his lack of cooperation forced me to have to take my horse elsewhere at a much greater cost). I'm sure that's 'small claims court' territory, but I'm not sure if that should even be mentioned to the vet at this point.

Give it one week past when you get your return receipt in the mail. Make sure the return receipt is stamped with the date of pick up. If you don't get your rads by then, send your complaint to the board.

[ReeseTheBeast]

Mia- Thank you so much!

(and of course to everyone else who replied, too!) :yes:

Letter will be sent today certified mail. Stay tuned!

[ReeseTheBeast]

So, the vet received my certified letter yesterday, which I assume is why he called me 3 times from 8:30-9pm last night. :rolleyes:

He told me that he already sent me the disc, the day after I called last to request it (which was on Aug. 29th. I had called at least 2 times prior to then to request it, but never received it]). He told me he sent it first-class, that I should have gotten it by now, and asked me to look around my house and maybe see if it got misplaced somewhere. Then he said to call him if it doesn't turn up in the next few days in the mail or if I don't find it in my house and he'll send me a new one. He expressed confusion as to why I sent him a certified letter with a delivery receipt/confirmation and also informed me that "this is ridiculous." I told him I had no way of knowing he sent the disc since I had never gotten a returned phone call or any other communication from him indicating as such.

He then brought up the first time I asked for a disc of the copies (which was the day he took the rads, on Aug. 13th). He said he didn't understand why I was calling for a copy of the images since he already told me that he would just drop the disc by my farm next time he was around that way and would mail me printouts of the lateral and DV views of both front feet; and and again said "this is ridiculous."

I explained to him that after my farrier looked at the printouts (on the day of the first shoeing- aug. 16th) I received in the mail, he wanted to see the rest of the images taken of those front feet because there was a lot of pathologies and needed to tailor the shoeing to work on fixing them, so I called his office several times to request the copy since we couldn't wait until he decided to drop the disc by my farm.

In response to that, the vet said, "this is ridiculous!" because when he spoke to my farrier (on Aug. 14th or 15th), my farrier told him that the lateral and DV view printouts should be fine ("should" being the operative word here) and he could just work off of those; and it didn't make any sense that he would want the copies after that conversation. The vet then said, "obviously, your farrier is giving you and me two different stories." I actually got pretty pissed at that comment, I felt the vet was insinuating that somehow all of this ('this' being all this drama about the disc) was the farrier's fault and that he is a liar or somehow attempting to mislead both of us ("us" being me and the vet).
:confused: :mad: :no:

Regardless of the intention of his remark (which I personally felt was completely ludicrous and unprofessional to boot), I explained that no- my farrier is not giving us two different stories. Rather, my farrier spoke with you (the vet) prior to seeing the printouts of the lateral and DV views of both front feet (which are usually sufficient in these types of situations) and then decided we needed the rest of the copies to work from after actually seeing them because it was determined that the printouts were not enough to work from (which was determined because of the issue of the suspected duplicate images marked as differing feet as noted in the OP... we felt looking at the rest of the images would confirm or disprove that).

The vet told me that I don't need some kind of "specialty shoer" but since I found a farrier that I like then that's fine, although he thought it was "ridiculous" that I'm having all of these 'things' done (like x-rays, pads and frog support with the shoes, etc). I decided not to point out the fact that I wasn't asking for permission to work with my farrier :rolleyes: and instead explained that my farrier isn't a 'specialty shoer;' he just needs the radiographs and to work with a vet in order to correct the pathologies. I told him that as far as I am aware, that's accepted as the correct practice when dealing with something like this (lame horse with foot pathologies) and as an owner, I feel that it's a responsible method.

He asked how Reese was doing and I told him he was doing well but we're working on a lot of problems with his feet right now. I explained that since I couldn't get a copy of the radiographs from him as requested I had to take Reese to a different clinic to have his front feet x-rays re-taken and then had new rads done of the hinds as well. He asked what kinds of things were found and I shared with him that among other things, there was literally no sole depth (< 7mm) between the P3 and the ground, there were negative palmer angles found and substantial inflammation. I then told him how my farrier worked with the attending vet at the clinic to establish a corrective/remedial shoeing protocol and he's been doing great since then and we're still working on getting to 100%.

He didn't respond in any way to the fact I had to go elsewhere for new x-rays, but he did say that he didn't understand why my first farrier (NOT the current farrier!) suggested and then kept pushing "all that nonsense about keeping your horse's shoes off, that's ridiculous." I told him that I didn't either but there's nothing that can be done about that now and I just need to worry about the here and now. (deflection much? :rolleyes:)

The vet then brought up the issue of the 'duplicate printout' theory and told me that the printouts he sent were of the lateral and DV images of both front feet, not just one as I have been thinking (I mentioned my thoughts on the matter to the receptionist when she asked me why I wanted the disc after he already sent me printouts... and yes, it is like 'Groundhog Day'). He said, 'This is ridiculous. The only reason they look the same is because I have to put the horse's feet on the same spot on that damn $400 box I had to buy to get the damn images with my digital machine. So in each picture, the hoof is in the same damn position on the box which is why both damn pictures look the same.' [The vet's quote is paraphrased because I don't remember exactly what he said, although the preceding is pretty "damn" close- there was a lot of 'damn'ing going on :winkgrin:]


So, since the conversation just kept going around and around and around, I concluded things by telling the vet that I'd keep an eye out for the disc in the mail and would call him if it doesn't show up by Friday afternoon's mail delivery so he could send me a new copy. And yes, while I do realize that copies of the original radiographs are a moot point at this juncture, I still want them for several reasons; including principle- I'm not going to tolerate getting dicked around like this by him or anybody else.

I spoke to an attorney who said I absolutely have a civil case (and a VERY justified one at that), but at this point my brain hurts to even think about this stuff anymore. I'm not sure what I'm going to do from here, or what I should do from here, but I wanted to update anyone following this on the newest developments.

Off to find some Advil, for my throbbing brain! :lol:

[Mozart]

Good for you. Amazing the action a certified letter can get. "I already sent you a disc" Yeah, sure. Nice try.

[Petstorejunkie]

WoW! and we thought he had a lack of professionalism BEFORE?!!!
I am so sorry you are going thru all this gobbledy gook. This vet sounds like he's a few years late of retirement, or broke, or both...

[FlashGordon]

Holy Moly...... what a disaster and what a headache dealing with a vet like that. Parts of your post made me laugh, particularly all the "this is ridiculous" nonsense and the "damn this damn that"..... lol.... so professional......

I think there are a lot of vets (and medical professionals in general) out there who are not used to proactive owners. Sounds like this guy is one of them....

Was thinking about you guys yesterday, as my horse was having his fancy new titanium shoes put on and I was swearing under my breath at the farrier who got us into this mess in the first place... oy. :(

[ReeseTheBeast]

Holy Moly...... what a disaster and what a headache dealing with a vet like that. Parts of your post made me laugh, particularly all the "this is ridiculous" nonsense and the "damn this damn that"..... lol.... so professional......

I think there are a lot of vets (and medical professionals in general) out there who are not used to proactive owners. Sounds like this guy is one of them....

Was thinking about you guys yesterday, as my horse was having his fancy new titanium shoes put on and I was swearing under my breath at the farrier who got us into this mess in the first place... oy. :(

I've been thinking of you guys too, how is everything going with that?

And yes, it seems that a lot of the service industry, whether equine related or not, frequently seem to be very put off by a proactive or 'aware' owner/client. Ridiculous indeed!

(I had to laugh at that too, I wish I had tallied how many times he said it during our conversation last night :lol:)

[texang73]

WoW! and we thought he had a lack of professionalism BEFORE?!!!
I am so sorry you are going thru all this gobbledy gook. This vet sounds like he's a few years late of retirement, or broke, or both...

Agreed. Sorry you have had to deal with all that!

But, glad that it sounds like you have figured out how to help your horse the best! :D Despite unprofessional vets!

[bambam]

there certainly is something ridiculous about all this . . . but I am pretty sure your vet and I don't agree on what it is ;)
yah- it is in the mail, uh huh

[tidy rabbit]

Holy Smokes! What a jerk he is.

GOOD FOR YOU to speak up and be heard!

[ReeseTheBeast]

Thanks for all the support, guys!

Any suggestions as to where I go from here? Persue it legally to recoup the additional $1100 I had to spend at the new vet clinic, or just let it go?

I'm planning on reporting him to the board regardless. Input greatly appreciated!

[vxf111]

He's in VA, you're in VA-- right? I'd take him to small claims court. You can do that without an attorney, and the filing fees are not all that expensive. If you have the time/inclination-- why not give it a try?! It might encourage this vet to be more professional in the future.

[tidy rabbit]

That's a tough decision to make.

Since you have some time to decide whether or not to sue, if it were me, I'd give it a month or two to make that decision.

You may feel a little differently about it in a month than you do right now. If you still feel like it would be worth the trouble to go to court over it than you should do so. If it were me, I'd take a cooling off period just to be sure that I'm really ready to take on that fight.

[ReeseTheBeast]

He's in VA, you're in VA-- right? I'd take him to small claims court. You can do that without an attorney, and the filing fees are not all that expensive. If you have the time/inclination-- why not give it a try?! It might encourage this vet to be more professional in the future.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Actually, we're both in MD but I see what you're saying :yes:

I'm thinking it would be more proper procedure to ask him for the reimbursement first, and then persue it in the courts if he doesn't agree. Anyone have any input on that? Anyone? Bueller? :lol:

Oh, and I still haven't gotten the disc. You know, the invisible one he sent to me in the invisible envelope 20 days ago? :rolleyes:

Like I said... Groundhog Day!

[ReeseTheBeast]

That's a tough decision to make.

Since you have some time to decide whether or not to sue, if it were me, I'd give it a month or two to make that decision.

You may feel a little differently about it in a month than you do right now. If you still feel like it would be worth the trouble to go to court over it than you should do so. If it were me, I'd take a cooling off period just to be sure that I'm really ready to take on that fight.


That's a very good point. What you said, TR, is why I haven't made any decisions as of this point and won't until I *know* exactly what I want to do. I'm hoping that the suggestions and insight I get from you guys will give me food for thought and/or different points of view to consider before I actually do [or don't!] make any moves. :)

Thanks so much! :yes:

[vxf111]

Sorry, I thought you were in the VA clique. I can't keep that bunch straight anymore, there are so many of them!

Yes, before initiating suit I would send him a certified letter, enclosing the bill for the additional x-rays, explanining that you expect reimbursement by date X or else you will be initiating legal action to recoup the damages suffered as a result of his failure to disclose the initial x-rays upon your request. I would really set out the basis for your claim and all the details in the letter. This letter is going to be one of this exhibits when you eventually get to small claims court, so you want to make it very professional and clear.

[vxf111]

P.S.- I wouldn't wait FOREVER, because there surely is a statute of limitations ticking somewhere.

[trubandloki]

Oh, and I still haven't gotten the disc. You know, the invisible one he sent to me in the invisible envelope 20 days ago? :rolleyes:

Like I said... Groundhog Day!

Silly you - It is lost in your house some where. Didn't the ever so smart vet man tell you that? Then it must be the case! You know how you are always loosing things like that in your house. Things that you have been waiting for.

:rolleyes:

Oh my your vet is just rude!



I like the idea of waiting to see what you feel like in a few weeks before deciding on filing suit. But I think you, if nothing else, should get the money you paid him back.

[Lucassb]

What a mess.

However, since you already have enough to worry about getting your horse's feet sorted... personally I would just contact the original vet again, state that you have not received the disc(s), tell him you will stop by to pick them up on (Date/Time) ... and suggest, given all the difficulties you have had, that it would be appropriate for him to give you a refund on the fees you have paid his practice for the original exam.

I would NOT ask him to pay for the second exam; it is unlikely he'd do it, and he can argue that he "would have retaken the shots himself had you made him aware of the problem" (he said/she said) and come up with all sorts of excuses.