TWH Celebration

[cordial]

The TWH Celebration was a big success this year, with no problems with the USDA. They even complimented the trainers and owners on the compliant horses that were brought to the inspection area. Sure ,there were tickets given to the violators, but all in all a great Celebration. My only complaint was the very HOT,HOT weather. But the horses handled it with no problem!

[twhrider13]

The TWH Celebration was a big success this year, with no problems with the USDA. They even complimented the trainers and owners on the compliant horses that were brought to the inspection area.

Quoting just because this bears repeating. :)

I wish I could've been there myself.

[subk]

Living in Nashville I've watched this industry for decades. One "good" Celebration doesn't make me very optimistic.

[pony4me]

I heard that attendance was down, and vendor booths were way down too. I didn't think to ask if entries were down. Horses were ok (meaning not sore, but still big lick), judging was considered fair, and the DQP's were working hard. Sounds better to me. I hope it will stay that way. This was from a close friend of mine who grew up in a TWH family, and rides, but does not show.

[twhrider13]

Living in Nashville I've watched this industry for decades. One "good" Celebration doesn't make me very optimistic.

Beats the hell out of zero "good" Celebrations, doesn't it?

I think it was someone else on this site who said, "Some folks would bitch if they were hanged with a new rope." :rolleyes:

[katarine]

Amen, Randi. :confused:

Maybe you and I can go next year? Let's make it TWO good years in a row. ;)

[twhrider13]

Amen, Randi. :confused:

Maybe you and I can go next year? Let's make it TWO good years in a row. ;)

Of course! Might you be interested in going to the show in Tallassee on October 13th or the one in Columbiana on November 3rd? I *hope* to have at least one of the Evil Black Mares ready for those shows. :winkgrin: I'd love to hang out with you there, and I might be able to persuade you to ride your boy in Country Pleasure with me and Bubba. ;)

[Rudy]

I was there for the last night and it was great! Attendance may have been down but it didn't look or sound like it to me. There were great horses both padded and nonpadded alike! I found one class to be highly amusing and you walking horse people probably know what I'm talking about.

[asb_own_me]

Living in Nashville I've watched this industry for decades. One "good" Celebration doesn't make me very optimistic.

Ever heard the saying about how change doesn't happen overnight? Sheesh.

Kudos to those who were there, participating LEGALLY and ETHICALLY :yes:

[rebecca yount]

I hope this is a good sign, as I think what they do to those horses is absolutely disgusting--and not just the "illegal" stuff, either.

I am one of the people who called the head of the organization and voiced my disgust, to him personally. I also support the efforts, and contacted the USDA here in Maryland, to eradicate from the face of the earth the ridiculous instruments of torture (shoes, training devices, bits, etc) and the abominations they call "gaits", which in my opinion cripple and maim horses.

Hiding behind tradition. Puh-leeeze!

[twhrider13]

I hope this is a good sign, as I think what they do to those horses is absolutely disgusting--and not just the "illegal" stuff, either.

I am one of the people who called the head of the organization and voiced my disgust, to him personally. I also support the efforts, and contacted the USDA here in Maryland, to eradicate from the face of the earth the ridiculous instruments of torture (shoes, training devices, bits, etc) and the abominations they call "gaits", which in my opinion cripple and maim horses.

Hiding behind tradition. Puh-leeeze!

Yeah, and we're heavily involved in the Church of Satan, too. It must be true. I read it on the Internet. :yes:

:rolleyes:

[cordial]

I made a promise to myself that I would not get into a debate with people like Rebecca, who don't have the first clue what they are talking about. There was a padded horse that showed at the Celebration that was 24 years of age---not too bad for a horse that is suppose to be crippled. We have a 17 year old padded horse,who's very favorite thing in life is showing off his talent. BUT as I said before I will only respond to people on this thread that have the positive view of this wonderful breed.

[rebecca yount]

I don't have a problem with the breed--I have a problem with what people do to them. There is lots of evidence of this practice--why say I don't know what I am talking about?

Read this, if you are not too scared or embarassed:

https://www.twhbea.com/voice/News/USDAToIndustry.htm

Or how about this official USDA publication:

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/animal_welfare/content/printable_version/Horse_Protection_6-3-5.pdf

Or this handout from a Listening Session conducted by Dr. Todd Behre of the USDA--careful--this one has some very graphic photos:

http://www.pinerockfarm.com/hppls.pdf

Here's more:

http://valleyviewwalkers.com/page9.html

I suppose you will claim that the above sources "don't know what they are talking about" either? Come on--you know what is done to these horses is wrong.

It is disgusting, vile, cruel, and exploitive. How anyone can get pleasure from torturing animals is beyond my comprehension.

[Rudy]

wow...y'all really stirred up a good one.

*goes and gets popcorn*

[asb_own_me]

Christ. Why not be happy for one small victory, one Celebration that went well? It doesn't mean that *all* the problems are fixed, and the OP didn't claim they were.

On second thought, Rebecca, never mind my post. Go back to your regularly scheduled program of sucking lemons. What's it like to live life as one big letdown after another?

[twhrider13]

Ok, rebecca. You, with the Internet research, are right, and we, with the years of experience, are wrong. We are all terrible, horrible people who get our rocks off on doing terrible, horrible things to our poor, innocent horsies. Is that what you wanted to hear? If you don't mind, I think we'll move on with the thread now. :rolleyes:

Anybody around here going to any of the fall shows? I swear, all year, I've been like, "Maybe I'll have something ready for the spring shows." Then it was, "Maybe I'll have something ready for the summer shows." Now, it's, "Maybe I'll have something ready for the fall shows." At this rate, I may be ready by, like, 2010. Ah, the life and times of a grad student. :lol:

[freshman]

Glad to hear that the Celebration went, and went well from what it sounds like. So attendence and vendors were down--so what? Those that "protested" the industry changes and stayed at home shouldn't be missed. Whatever. Those fans and sponsors that were there are the future of the breed.

It is beginning to look like the industry is responding to the USDA crackdown on soring, etc. Hopefully there will be a continued USDA presence at all the shows so that it will not be a temporary reform. Sorry, but the industry's "self regulation" of soring was not working; the self-selected DP's that were in place at the shows to inspect and pass the horses were a joke.

Just to clarify, I do not like the large stacks that are put on the "big lick" horses, even those padded horses that comply with the USDA standards and are not sored. I don't like how those horses move or appreciate the exaggerated action, or spider walking, they display when put into stacks. It doesn't look natural, and I don't like the fact that the padded horses are unable to be turned out to pasture in their stacks. But I don't think that it should be banned just because I don't like it. Racehorses are stalled 24/7, and live under similar conditions. I don't really agree with eventing horses being run at top speed over huge, solid obstacles and off steep banks/drops, either.

I do hope that the new USDA inspectors are being just as vigilant with the flat-shod horses as they are with the padded ones. There is historically almost just as much soring, pressure-shoeing, etc, going on in those divisions as their big-lick counter-parts. I've not kept up with it enough to know whether the inspectors are covering these divisions as well. Anyone know?

TWH's are great, great horses. I've always ridden H/J and never had much experience with them until these past few years. Working in the veterinary industry, I'm constantly impressed with TWH's disposition, stoicism, and durability. Most TWH show horses are kept as stallions, and they are amazingly docile to work with on the ground. Even the aged breeding stallions are safe and mannerly to treat, even for those people that are not experienced horse handlers. I have a deep appreciation for the breed and look forward to having one in my own barn in the future.

[Rusty Stirrup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ5xGdy7FYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbGQ9caL_1Q

These speak for themselves even if the horses can't.

[asb2517]

Yeah, and we're heavily involved in the Church of Satan, too. It must be true. I read it on the Internet. :yes:
:rolleyes:

:lol::lol::lol:

Being a saddlebred person (yeah I know - we are just about as bad as you TWH people :winkgrin:) I admit I know NOTHING about TWH. I went to my first TWH horse show this summer and was amazed at the stringent inspections they all had to go thru and this was just a little show.

There was only 1 in the "big lick" class, but that horse looked like he was having a blast. He NEVER backed an ear!

Also, the people there were so nice and answered all my stupid questions
patiently. I thought it was a very interesting experience and to all of you people who criticize - perhaps you should go to a show and see what it's all about instead of relying on information you get off a computer!

[Gnalli]

You know what, this arguement is old and tired and useless. There are those out there that will always hate us and not truly understand because all they do is believe what they read on the internet that is bad, and not believe any of the good or BETTER YET, get out and learn for themselves.

As far as the soundness issues go long term-yeah, right. That is why we have so many "classic" horses that show. We showed a horse at 24, 25 padded and did well. That is not the exception. My 17 yr old is flat shod right now, but is sound as a gold coin. My hubby won't let my girls even learn to jump because he feels that it is abusive to ask a horse to jump obstacles that may be solid or have landings too far down with a human on them. There are ways to go around those in nature, he said in response that on a trail, it is handy. Different strokes for different folks.

Regardless of all that, I have found a video of a nice nice mare strutting her stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&mode=related&search=

[SteppinEasy]

There was a padded horse that showed at the Celebration that was 24 years of age---not too bad for a horse that is suppose to be crippled. We have a 17 year old padded horse,who's very favorite thing in life is showing off his talent.

I'm always astounded that TWH people think it's a big deal to have padded horses competing in their 20s--considering how common that is in other disciplines. Given that TWHs are such a hardy breed, they SHOULD be competing up into their 20s! The fact that they generally don't...well, that says more about the industry and how, um, "great" their training practices aren't than anything.

And yes, I'm a TWH person. One who used to have BL horses. One who strongly hopes that the USDA crackdown continues unabated and even gets tighter. Are things getting better? Yes. But you have to remember the starting point--better just isn't good enough if you started at ground zero (or below). I want anyone who puts any kind of gait-"enhancing" chemicals on a horse's legs or otherwise causes pain in the horse for the purpose of more motion to face REAL consequences, like jail time for animal cruelty. Pressure shoeing should be hard jail time.

[Gnalli]

I'm always astounded that TWH people think it's a big deal to have padded horses competing in their 20s--considering how common that is in other disciplines. Given that TWHs are such a hardy breed, they SHOULD be competing up into their 20s! The fact that they generally don't...well, that says more about the industry and how, um, "great" their training practices aren't than anything.

And yes, I'm a TWH person. One who used to have BL horses. One who strongly hopes that the USDA crackdown continues unabated and even gets tighter. Are things getting better? Yes. But you have to remember the starting point--better just isn't good enough if you started at ground zero (or below). I want anyone who puts any kind of gait-"enhancing" chemicals on a horse's legs or otherwise causes pain in the horse for the purpose of more motion to face REAL consequences, like jail time for animal cruelty. Pressure shoeing should be hard jail time.


We were not saying that it is unusual to have them showing at that age, we were just pointing out to those who claim they break down so early that that is not the case.

[buckeyerev]

I was there Sat. night. Great show, great horses, great classes! The only police action I saw was the TN Mounted Police on thier handsome TWH's! I enjoyed the flat shod classes right along with the padded classes! We had a ball! As far as fall shows, we have 2 open/all-breed shows to attend in Sept. that offer TWH classes. Then we have the Ohio Celebration. We will be at all of them! The whiners and moaners out there who aren't happy unless they are b*tching about our TWH's will always be out there. I have chose to ignore them. They aren't worth the waste of energy to converse with them. For the exhibitor who wanted to "make a statement" in the last class, thier horse was ignored by both the crowd and the judges. I was rooting for Rowdy Rev in the WGC class, but Master of Jazz made a good show. I also like Hatcher's Pistol horse! Small but mighty! That was one heck of a 2nd split work-off! Any one of those horses could have worn the roses! Talk about hair up on your arms! Yeah boy!

[katarine]

Randi I am SO not ready to show that horse of mine!! BUT- send me some info, I'll definitely come and would LOVE to meet you. I'm a good groom, too, been known to fetch a beer or three as needed ;)

[cordial]

Glad to hear that the Celebration went, and went well from what it sounds like. So attendence and vendors were down--so what? Those that "protested" the industry changes and stayed at home shouldn't be missed. Whatever. Those fans and sponsors that were there are the future of the breed.

It is beginning to look like the industry is responding to the USDA crackdown on soring, etc. Hopefully there will be a continued USDA presence at all the shows so that it will not be a temporary reform. Sorry, but the industry's "self regulation" of soring was not working; the self-selected DP's that were in place at the shows to inspect and pass the horses were a joke.

Just to clarify, I do not like the large stacks that are put on the "big lick" horses, even those padded horses that comply with the USDA standards and are not sored. I don't like how those horses move or appreciate the exaggerated action, or spider walking, they display when put into stacks. It doesn't look natural, and I don't like the fact that the padded horses are unable to be turned out to pasture in their stacks. But I don't think that it should be banned just because I don't like it. Racehorses are stalled 24/7, and live under similar conditions. I don't really agree with eventing horses being run at top speed over huge, solid obstacles and off steep banks/drops, either.

I do hope that the new USDA inspectors are being just as vigilant with the flat-shod horses as they are with the padded ones. There is historically almost just as much soring, pressure-shoeing, etc, going on in those divisions as their big-lick counter-parts. I've not kept up with it enough to know whether the inspectors are covering these divisions as well. Anyone know?

TWH's are great, great horses. I've always ridden H/J and never had much experience with them until these past few years. Working in the veterinary industry, I'm constantly impressed with TWH's disposition, stoicism, and durability. Most TWH show horses are kept as stallions, and they are amazingly docile to work with on the ground. Even the aged breeding stallions are safe and mannerly to treat, even for those people that are not experienced horse handlers. I have a deep appreciation for the breed and look forward to having one in my own barn in the future.

Freshman,
I thought that you made a very intelligent post, with comments on both "sides" of the padded horse debate. In the South the trainers regularly turn out AND lunge their padded horses. They run in the pastures just like a flat-shod horse. We don't turn out our 17 year old padded horse out and quite frankly I'm not sure at his age he'd even want to be. When we retire him, we will gradually put him down to a flat shoe, and let him just be a pasture horse. We will see how he does!
Even though I didn't agree with everthing in your post, you certainly presented yourself as "knowing" the pros and cons of the breed. I also agree that the USDA needs to keep up the pressure on the owners and trainers, to keep the horses complaint .

[thetrainerlady]

I had to run back over here as soon as I could take a lil R&R. :shock:

It's like running back to the neighborhood and get with some good people.

We showed Champagne Watchout in the TWH World Grand championship class at The Celebration last saturday night.....the field were 12 Performance (Padded Horses) and then us.... keg shod with a 1/2 inch wedge and a humane tail, with sheepskinned lined rim Black Bells boots on...and two brave brave ladies.

It was sooo refreshing to see and hear sooooo many people voice their approval....of course there were those who vocally and physically expressed their disapproval...and it is certainly their right to express it and I'm glad I helped to secure that right...
:lol:

Let me tell you that I have uploaded it to my website for your viewing pleasure.

I'd like to point out a couple of things to you...when Jennie enters the showring and circles the arena and comes to a stop waiting for the other contestants, she feeds WO horsey cookies...he likes his treats also it's a great execise to bend and flex the horse which relaxes them...and they don't know it but they are being trained...because this action requires no human asking...the horse does it himself.....

Well enjoy the video and we'll talk...

Thank you ALL for your support! The horse most of all thanks you!

"The Preacher"

[cordial]

:lol::lol::lol:

Being a saddlebred person (yeah I know - we are just about as bad as you TWH people :winkgrin:) I admit I know NOTHING about TWH. I went to my first TWH horse show this summer and was amazed at the stringent inspections they all had to go thru and this was just a little show.

There was only 1 in the "big lick" class, but that horse looked like he was having a blast. He NEVER backed an ear!

Also, the people there were so nice and answered all my stupid questions
patiently. I thought it was a very interesting experience and to all of you people who criticize - perhaps you should go to a show and see what it's all about instead of relying on information you get off a computer!
Great post ASB---we always tell people who think that padded horses are so terrible, that come ride one, and I can promise you will change your mind.
When I got into TWH's ( I rode Saddlebreds, and had a morgan) I had a flat-shod horse, and I too, had heard all the "RUMORS " about the padded horses. There was a padded horse at the barn, and I had the chance to ride him. He was a "blast", and have liked that division ever since.
No, I am not looking thru "rose-colored glasses", but am happy with the strides that the trainers, and owners have made . I say bring on the USDA, as long as they follow the rules of the OP (operating plan), and the trainers follow as well---we will be a happy bunch of "walking-People"!!

[Auventera Two]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuqN9n4RF4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ5xGdy7FYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbGQ9caL_1Q

These speak for themselves even if the horses can't.

Those videos are disgusting. It's interesting to read the comments below them also. Not too many positives, are there? What a disgrace to such a lovely, talented, and athletic breed. :no:

Save your breath on the big lick lovers of this BB, and focus on real efforts to ban this practice. You can PM me if you want. Not worth posting here. *sigh*

[katarine]

Did somebody say something? Or was that just the usual fart of hot air?

[alljokesaside]

My mother in law's show horse went to the Celebration and came home with a 7th place ribbon in the Amateur Gentleman's Auxiliary class (I think that's what it was). We're SO proud of him! (We call him Two Gun ... I want to say his "real" name is Silver Dollar's Two Gun or something along those lines.)

Congratulations to those who placed, those who participated, and those who went observe! I wish I could've been there, but I was at the Saddlebred World's Championships and then too lazy to drive to TN. :)

[Nun Ya]

The Tranier Lady and AT are here... wonderful, wonderful. Now it really will turn into a mud slinging contest. :rolleyes:

The show was great! I thought I heard it said there was 25,000 people there the last night. I loved the show. The sales were fun. I wasn't allowed to buy anything for fear that my husband would send me to divorce court. :lol: I thought the flatshod horse in the stake class looked awful, the crowd seemed to agree with either booing them or being quite when they rode past. :eek: We did a lot of shopping and hung out at the parties the last two nights. They had a great band playing. I also was able to get my first Billie Nipper framed print!!! I love it. Masquerading of course. ;) We stayed with a good friend who is also a noted trainer in TN and he gave us barn passes so we wouldn't have to walk so far. We walked out the back gate and our car was right there. I loved it. I can't wait until next year!!!!!!!

We have a show in Phenix City in 3 weeks and then of course the Midnight Sun, Dothan, Newnan, and the Southern Championship!! Going to the Celebration really got my husband all excited, he bought more stuff than I did at bedford tack. I told my friend I was with looks like he will be in horse training mode when we get home! :lol:

[Rudy]

My mother in law's show horse went to the Celebration and came home with a 7th place ribbon in the Amateur Gentleman's Auxiliary class (I think that's what it was). We're SO proud of him! (We call him Two Gun ... I want to say his "real" name is Silver Dollar's Two Gun or something along those lines.)

Congratulations to those who placed, those who participated, and those who went observe! I wish I could've been there, but I was at the Saddlebred World's Championships and then too lazy to drive to TN. :)

Too lazy? What?!?!?! lol..... I went to Fri. and Sat. in Louisville and then Sat. for the Celebration. Great shows back to back. :)

[alljokesaside]

I KNOW! I'm beating myself up for it. I think the too lazy equals in with me being pregnant. I can't WAIT to see the pictures of Two Gun.

I do have to say that riding a Walking Horse is one of the most amazing things in the world. Hands down.

[Beam of Sundrop]

I had to run back over here as soon as I could take a lil R&R. :shock:

It's like running back to the neighborhood and get with some good people.

We showed Champagne Watchout in the TWH World Grand championship class at The Celebration last saturday night.....the field were 12 Performance (Padded Horses) and then us.... keg shod with a 1/2 inch wedge and a humane tail, with sheepskinned lined rim Black Bells boots on...and two brave brave ladies.

It was sooo refreshing to see and hear sooooo many people voice their approval....of course there were those who vocally and physically expressed their disapproval...and it is certainly their right to express it and I'm glad I helped to secure that right...
:lol:

Let me tell you that I have uploaded it to my website for your viewing pleasure.

I'd like to point out a couple of things to you...when Jennie enters the showring and circles the arena and comes to a stop waiting for the other contestants, she feeds WO horsey cookies...he likes his treats also it's a great execise to bend and flex the horse which relaxes them...and they don't know it but they are being trained...because this action requires no human asking...the horse does it himself.....

Well enjoy the video and we'll talk...

Thank you ALL for your support! The horse most of all thanks you!

"The Preacher"

I watched it and I would be ashamed if I were you. No one was impressed. May I ask what was the point in showing in that class?

[alljokesaside]

thetrainerlady - I couldn't get the video to load properly. I think that with the background music and the sparkly background, it just didn't want to load for me. Booo. ;)

[TripleRipple]

The Tranier Lady and AT are here... wonderful, wonderful. Now it really will turn into a mud slinging contest. :rolleyes:

........... I thought the flatshod horse in the stake class looked awful, the crowd seemed to agree with either booing them or being quite when they rode past. :eek:

I read the Trainer Lady's post, and didn't see mud slinging. I read your post above and the one by the recently signed on Beam/Sun. Both slung mud. Perhaps this won't turn into mudslinging, if you stop now.

Nothing wrong with expressing a general opinion on BL, with pads or flat, even if the opinion or the ensuing discussion is a hot disagreeable one.

But there isn't anything nice about referencing a COTH poster's horse and dissing it to their face here on the board. Or did I misunderstand both of your posts?

[asb2517]

I watched it and I would be ashamed if I were you. No one was impressed. May I ask what was the point in showing in that class?

Wow...harsh much??

But ~ I watched the video and am a little confused. Did they show that horse to prove a point or what? I thought it was a pretty horse, but was obviously not shod/put together like the others. Was this for the championship for padded horses or what? I have already admitted that I know nothing so, please educate me on why some one would show a horse which was obviously not supposed to be in that class?

I think it would be kind of like an ASB 5 gaited country pleasure horse showing in the KSF WGC Open 5 gaited class because someone dislikes pads and cut tails on ASB's? Am I right? :confused: But at the ASB world Championships you have to get a ribbon to show back in the Championship, so this would not happen.

[Nun Ya]

I only posted once ;)

[Nun Ya]

Who knows why they do what they do. They did it once before to. Every time you ask why you get another reason why so the answer would be for attention. I will try very hard not to pay them any because that is what they seek. If you think it looked confusing on tape you should have seen it in person. :no: The thing that got me was Mrs Jackson should have at least dressed the part. You are supposed to wear a top hat w/ gloves and a "formal" suit in any championship class.

[asb2517]

I thought it was odd how she fed him in the ring?? :confused:

[katarine]

Nun Ya do you or Randi have a class sheet for Pheonix City or Tallassee? I would like to get a rundown of the classes.

Thanks! Glad you had such a good time. And to think our resident protests-too-much-and-too-often didn't make it down there like she SWORE she would last year. Funny how the wind fell out of those sails when (insert new crisis here) came along ;)

[Nun Ya]

WHAT A GREAT CELEBRATION THIS YEAR!!!!! YIPEEEE :yes: :lol: :)

Can't wait until next year.

Another question for everyone who went. Where did you stay and about how much per night? We stayed at the Walking Horse Lodge in Lewisburg and it costed about 65.00 per night for one couple.

[Nun Ya]

Nun Ya do you or Randi have a class sheet for Pheonix City or Tallassee? I would like to get a rundown of the classes.

Thanks! Glad you had such a good time. And to think our resident protests-too-much-and-too-often didn't make it down there like she SWORE she would last year. Funny how the wind fell out of those sails when (insert new crisis here) came along ;)


Yes go to www.gwhea.com go to show schedule and there will be a class sheet for all the Georgia shows! Let me know if you are coming and prehaps we can meet!

[katarine]

oh CRAP I just remembered I'll be in TX at the Mustang thing. Shoot.

I'll catch you at another show then, Nun Ya! Thanks for that link.

[Nun Ya]

I thought it was odd how she fed him in the ring?? :confused:

Yes he said it was to "flex" the horse. :rolleyes: You are asked to come in the ring and stand quietly. Not come in ride around wiggle around going back and fourth , you come in find you a spot and be still until the class is called. If you need a warm up or to flex or whatever you are provided a warm up ring to do this in.

[Auventera Two]

Watchout's canter was lovely compared to the stacked horses. It was effortless, beautiful, and seamless. Not sure why the stacked horses just stood there when asked to canter, but??? in any case - Job well done to Watchout! :)

[Nun Ya]

oh CRAP I just remembered I'll be in TX at the Mustang thing. Shoot.

I'll catch you at another show then, Nun Ya! Thanks for that link.

I think they are doing an adoption thingy around here soon. I heard something on the radio the other day.

[Beam of Sundrop]

Watchout's canter was lovely compared to the stacked horses. It was effortless, beautiful, and seamless. Not sure why the stacked horses just stood there when asked to canter, but??? in any case - Job well done to Watchout! :)


:lol: You need to learn a little more about walking horses. :uhoh:

[katarine]

well I'm going to the Mustang Makeover competition/auction, just to watch. I'd forgotten I booked it, it's a last minute thing we opted to go check out. I will catch you next time :)

[Nun Ya]

:lol: You need to learn a little more about walking horses. :uhoh:

You can say that again :yes:

[DopyDgz]

I hate-hate-hate padded walkers. The natural movement of these horses is gorgeous: why turn it into a hideous parody via unnatural means?

Right up there with whittling the ears of Dobermans, IMO. :(

[subk]

Beats the hell out of zero "good" Celebrations, doesn't it?

I think it was someone else on this site who said, "Some folks would bitch if they were hanged with a new rope." :rolleyes:

Who's bitching? The problem with the industry is everytime that problems erupt to the surface everyone wants to do a hasty clean up and pretend everything is fine. Yep, hubbub from last year's problems seem fixed lets forget and move on. That's why if you cut out a horse's frog, place a golf ball in the hole and then pad over it you can get re-employed in the industry once your jail time is over. Let's move on folks, nothing to see here.

Please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've ridden TWHs, competed ASB and been a horse owner in the region for decades. My bother worked as a law enforcement agent for the Tennessee Agricultural Department for years.

And for the poster who is confident that people in the "South" turnout their TWHs, go drive down Shelbyville Hwy like I did last Sunday and just count how many 20-30+ stall barns along the road that don't even have a paddock in sight.

"Zero Celebrations" sounds great to me!

[Gnalli]

We have turned them out, so have friends of mine.

[twhrider13]

Padded horses. They're called padded horses. Stacks are ugly women's shoes.

Katarine, I don't have a class sheet for Tallassee at the moment. There's not one online, either. Boo! But they always send me one in the mail closer to time. I'll be glad to email you a copy when I get mine. :)

[alljokesaside]

You're going to find good and bad in EVERY discipline. Not just the saddle seat world. I've watched eventing trainers run their horse up to a fence, jerk it back, then beat it half to death because it didn't make it over the jump. That, however, does not encompass ALL eventing trainers and I don't run around saying that every single eventer beats their horse.

I've watched hunter trainers tie their horses' heads to their chests to get them to keep their heads down. They didn't untie their heads, either, when they went into a stall - just kept them all tied down until they came to get them the next day. However, I know that this is an uncommon practice that doesn't apply to every hunter trainer.

Not all Walking Horse trainers slice their horses' frogs open, put a golf ball in it, and pad it over. Not all Walking Horse trainers sore. Not all Walking Horse trainers put their horses in teeny tiny little stalls and never let them see the light of day. Saying that is as if I said, "Every football player that's in the NFL fights Pit Bulls," because of Michael Vick.

If it's not for you, then it's not for you. That's why we have the pleasure of free will and choice.

[twhrider13]

You're going to find good and bad in EVERY discipline. Not just the saddle seat world. I've watched eventing trainers run their horse up to a fence, jerk it back, then beat it half to death because it didn't make it over the jump. That, however, does not encompass ALL eventing trainers and I don't run around saying that every single eventer beats their horse.

I've watched hunter trainers tie their horses' heads to their chests to get them to keep their heads down. They didn't untie their heads, either, when they went into a stall - just kept them all tied down until they came to get them the next day. However, I know that this is an uncommon practice that doesn't apply to every hunter trainer.

Not all Walking Horse trainers slice their horses' frogs open, put a golf ball in it, and pad it over. Not all Walking Horse trainers sore. Not all Walking Horse trainers put their horses in teeny tiny little stalls and never let them see the light of day. Saying that is as if I said, "Every football player that's in the NFL fights Pit Bulls," because of Michael Vick.

If it's not for you, then it's not for you. That's why we have the pleasure of free will and choice.

Totally appreciate what you're saying, but you may as well be speaking Chinese for all the good it'll do the people who really need to heed this and take it to heart. :)

[alljokesaside]

LOL, I assumed as much. :) But it never hurts to try!

[SteppinEasy]

:lol: You need to learn a little more about walking horses. :uhoh:

You know, there are a lot of us who know a LOT about Walking Horses and agree that the padded "canter" is a ridiculous mockery of a true TWH canter. But hey, the "you don't know nuttin'" argument has always been a favorite of the "All is well in BL-Land" contingent. That and the ever-popular name calling. Classy. :rolleyes:

[thetrainerlady]

The thing that got me was Mrs Jackson should have at least dressed the part. You are supposed to wear a top hat w/ gloves and a "formal" suit in any championship class.

Well Nun YA...If you read the rule books...novel idea!!!!...you see there is no rule of what you said...there have been 3 women WGC Betty Sain, Vicki Self and Judy Martin...none of these ladies wore headgear...BOOOYAA!

The Preacher

[thetrainerlady]

:lol: You need to learn a little more about walking horses. :uhoh:


You are doing just fine...just keep asking those questions because it requires them to give a reasonable answer which the "Dark Side" likes to avoid with demeaning responses to make you stop....listen to what is said and then research it for self....you'll be up to spped in no time :lol:

The Preacher

[subk]

Not all Walking Horse trainers slice their horses' frogs open, put a golf ball in it, and pad it over. Not all Walking Horse trainers sore. Not all Walking Horse trainers put their horses in teeny tiny little stalls and never let them see the light of day. Saying that is as if I said, "Every football player that's in the NFL fights Pit Bulls," because of Michael Vick.

I'll go even better than that and say MOST Walking Horse trainers do NOT do these things!

The problem I have with the industry is two fold. 1.) The few guys that DO do these awful things are not resoundly rejected by the industry. If the industry would police their own instead of claiming victimhood for those that do these things and then welcome them back with open arms (and open checkbooks) the days of Federal oversight would be gone. The people who should be the most angry and the most vengeful of the "rouge" trainers and crooked judging are not.

2.) I can not grasp why anyone would want to work to train their horse to acomplish something that can also be acomplished or augmented by putting that horse in constant pain. You can go on and on about the horrors of other horse sports but no other equestrian disipline has requirements that can be met and result in success in the ring by placing the horse in constant pain. A horse in constant pain won't win races, won't win jumping fences and won't win in the dressage arena. (Hint: That's why the rest of us have issues with pain killing drugs!) However, a horse who has had his frogs removed and other horrors CAN win in the TWH arena. Walking Horse trainers sore their horses because it WORKS! Unfortunately, I believe that until the industry changes that it can never clean itself up.

...And the NFL would only have a black eye if it stuck its head in the sand and ignored the occassional Michael Vicks of the league.

[cordial]

Who's bitching? The problem with the industry is everytime that problems erupt to the surface everyone wants to do a hasty clean up and pretend everything is fine. Yep, hubbub from last year's problems seem fixed lets forget and move on. That's why if you cut out a horse's frog, place a golf ball in the hole and then pad over it you can get re-employed in the industry once your jail time is over. Let's move on folks, nothing to see here.

Please don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've ridden TWHs, competed ASB and been a horse owner in the region for decades. My bother worked as a law enforcement agent for the Tennessee Agricultural Department for years.

And for the poster who is confident that people in the "South" turnout their TWHs, go drive down Shelbyville Hwy like I did last Sunday and just count how many 20-30+ stall barns along the road that don't even have a paddock in sight.

"Zero Celebrations" sounds great to me!
Nobody has said that the industry hasn't had problems in the past, but the 12 or so years I have been in it, the industry seems to be striving to "clean-up" their act. Can't you give credit where credit is due without bringing up the past???
When I was at the Celebration, I visited all of the top breeding barns looking for a mate for my Trail Pleasure mare--YES I said flat-shod. I saw Padded horses that are breeding studs and still showing in the turn-out pastures that they have for them. It was quite a sight to see, AND they lunge them also. I have to admit---we never turn out our padded horse, or lunge him--but they do--I saw it.
This is not "hasty clean" as you put it---the UDSA mean business, and alot of owners and trainers are listening!

[thetrainerlady]

Yes he said it was to "flex" the horse. :rolleyes: You are asked to come in the ring and stand quietly. Not come in ride around wiggle around going back and fourth , you come in find you a spot and be still until the class is called. If you need a warm up or to flex or whatever you are provided a warm up ring to do this in.

I love this one...:lol:

As you watch Jennie waiting for all the rest of the enrties...out comes this one BL horse who does not have it's tail brace on properly and starts to flop all over the place...they stop the show while his groom fixes the tail...you time how long it takes after the announcer calls for a time out.....

The thing about a BL horse is that they don't mind standing still...cuz they are so nailed to the ground with sorenss they don't wanna move...take that soreness away from them and they'll do just what my horse did...move...cuz they wanna get going....to bend and flex a horse at ANY time is a good thing...by flexing the neck it relaxes the horse...send endorpins through their system and improves on their performance, attitude and disposition...now who wouldn't wann t that at anythime from the back of the horse ?

The Preacher

[cordial]

LOL, I assumed as much. :) But it never hurts to try!

Good try---keep up !the good comments

[subk]

...the 12 or so years I have been in it, the industry seems to be striving to "clean-up" their act. Can't you give credit where credit is due without bringing up the past???
I'm happy to give credit where it's due. Is it due here? The industry has been "striving" to clean up for the 30+ years I've been paying attention. If they were really committed don't you think the last 18 months would have been a bit different?

[cordial]

I'm happy to give credit where it's due. Is it due here? The industry has been "striving" to clean up for the 30+ years I've been paying attention. If they were really committed don't you think the last 18 months would have been a bit different?

The last 18 months have been different---that is the whole point.

[cordial]

WHAT A GREAT CELEBRATION THIS YEAR!!!!! YIPEEEE :yes: :lol: :)

Can't wait until next year.

Another question for everyone who went. Where did you stay and about how much per night? We stayed at the Walking Horse Lodge in Lewisburg and it costed about 65.00 per night for one couple.

We stayed at the Blue Ribbon motel in Shelbyville. It is $75.00 plus $12.00 tax. It is not the greatest motel, but you can't beat the convenience. It is so close to the showgrounds.

[cordial]

Well Nun YA...If you read the rule books...novel idea!!!!...you see there is no rule of what you said...there have been 3 women WGC Betty Sain, Vicki Self and Judy Martin...none of these ladies wore headgear...BOOOYAA!

The Preacher
Those ladies won many years ago---the correct fashions have changed abit!

[cordial]

You know, there are a lot of us who know a LOT about Walking Horses and agree that the padded "canter" is a ridiculous mockery of a true TWH canter. But hey, the "you don't know nuttin'" argument has always been a favorite of the "All is well in BL-Land" contingent. That and the ever-popular name calling. Classy. :rolleyes:

I am not saying I am a huge fan of the padded walking horse canter, but the twh's are known for their "rocking chair canter" whether it is a flat show horse or padded. Watchout has NO rock to his canter at all!

[subk]

The last 18 months have been different---that is the whole point.
Different than what!!??

Different than a few years ago when it was discovered that the Celebration judges were taking bribes? Then during the following year when everyone worked to put the industry's best foot forward. (That was within the last 12 years so you should remember it!) Different than when the state ag department did a sting and convicted trainers of animal abuse? This hasn't been different at all! In fact I'd lay a bet that the same judges who got caught taking bribes are STILL involved in the industry. Just like the trainers who were back in business the day they got out of jail.

The industry DOES have a past and anyone would be a fool to ignore it. It's not pretty and enough time has not passed to dispay a break in the cycle. And saying you guys are "due credit" is ignoring your own history. Who was it who said that those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it? You guys have been repeating it over and over for the last 30+ years!

[cordial]

Different than what!!??

Different than a few years ago when it was discovered that the Celebration judges were taking bribes? Then during the following year when everyone worked to put the industry's best foot forward. (That was within the last 12 years so you should remember it!) Different than when the state ag department did a sting and convicted trainers of animal abuse? This hasn't been different at all! In fact I'd lay a bet that the same judges who got caught taking bribes are STILL involved in the industry. Just like the trainers who were back in business the day they got out of jail.

The industry DOES have a past and anyone would be a fool to ignore it. It's not pretty and enough time has not passed to dispay a break in the cycle. And saying you guys are "due credit" is ignoring your own history. Who was it who said that those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it? You guys have been repeating it over and over for the last 30+ years!
You don't think that bribery, and horse abuse is just a problem in the TWH world? Granted their "history" has had issues that needed to be addressed, but I personally am not guilty of bribery, abuse or none of the things that you speak of. 90 % of the people that I know personally trust me--are not ignoring the issues. I can't specak for all the trainers, but the ones I know personally are not taking it lightly. You act as though everybody that own and show Walkers are guilty of all the things you claim. It is just not true. But as one poster said---It is liking talking Chinese to people won't listen and always take the negative side! Don't "Paint us all with the same Paintbrush"

[twhrider13]

I hear that train a-comin'
It's rollin' 'round the bend
And I ain't seen the sunshine since
I don't know when...

Once again, yes, we're all evil, horrible, terrible people with no conscience. We only want money and prestige, nothing else. The horses who suffer at our hands are just downright pitiful.

You're right; we're wrong. Happy yet?

Anyway, if anyone besides katarine is interested in some show sheets for the fall shows around here, let me know. I'll send 'em out to you as soon as I can lay hands on them. :yes:

[Goodoldboy]

Here we go yet again. The same argument with the same people. For those of you who saying that BL people are pretending nothing is wrong, i have not seen one post by a TWH supporter that said nothing was wrong. Yes they said the Celebration was good and it was. But they have all said that there are problems that need to be fixed and there are.

To reply to the original post, it was a very good celebration. For the first time in a long time, i saw and heard a crowd get completely behind a horse that deserved it in the four year old WGC class. I also saw for the first time in a long time, the judges do the right thing and tie that horse first (as they very well should have) when everyone in the stands was sure they would tie him third. Then i saw a big name trainer from tennessee become humble and show his gratitude to the crowd for their support. I saw WCs and WGCs that were as free and easy going as i have ever seen.

On another note, i saw one thing that i cannot understand. Please, TrainerLady, explain to me why you did what you did. Because i can't get past the thought that it was merely a publicity stunt to get attention just as it was several years ago. At that time it was a big deal and you made headlines and got booed and it was a big to do. It didn't work that way this time did it? You were ignored and spent your money to make a few rounds in the big ring and nothing more. the class would have been no different if you hadn't been there, unlike the first time when you made a big splash. If you feel you are making a statement about flat shod horses competing with padded horses then fine, that i can respect. But when you only do it twice, several years apart at the show with the biggest crowd. If you want to make a statement why not do it every weekend, that would seem to me to speak louder volumes. Im just curious

[cordial]

Great response---I couldn't have said it better myself!!

[subk]

... You act as though everybody that own and show Walkers are guilty of all the things you claim. It is just not true.

Cordial you're not even bothing to read my posts before you respond.

I said:
I'll go even better than that and say MOST Walking Horse trainers do NOT do these things!

I really, really hope you are right and the industry is cleaning up. But it's unfair for someone to call me "bitchy" because I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon after a measly 12 months of reform.

[cordial]

Cordial you're not even bothing to read my posts before you respond.

I said:


I really, really hope you are right and the industry is cleaning up. But it's unfair for someone to call me "bitchy" because I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon after a measly 12 months of reform.
Yes,, I am reading your post before I respond, but you are soooo quick to bring up the negative side of the TWH's. I understand that you feel that not all trainers do the "evil" things you talk about, but you keep bringing up the issues we are trying so hard to oversome. Cut the industry some "slack"--these USDA and our D.Q.P's are checking hard, using the x-ray machine, testing for drugs, using the hoof-tester,and the "sniffer" machine. They are checking by pressing (and gouging the legs with fingernails--yes they are) hard. I wonder how many breeds could pass this kind of scrutiny. These Government boys are not "fooling" around---they are out to get the offenders. Most people I know are all for it, and I think you will see big changes in the future. Better late then Never!

[katarine]

Thank you Randi I'll look forward to that class sheet.

Watchout does not have as good a canter as my FLAT SHOD TWH has. It's too flat, not enough oomph. There's not a marked difference between his flat walk and his RW...most noticeable when they are called down from a RW to a FW...not enough difference there.

He's not a great flat shod horse. That's just the plain truth.

[CuriosoJorge]

I wonder how many breeds could pass this kind of scrutiny.

Um, every other breed I can think of. Of course there are bad apples in every barrel, but I can't think of another breed or discipline where the cheaters deliberately cause pain with every step.

And just out of curiosity, since the BL supporters get tired of people calling it like they see it on this forum, don't you walking horse people have a forum of your own? Couldn't a walking horse magazine provide you with some free bandwidth so you don't have to keep abusing The Chronicle's?

[Goodoldboy]

There are other forums that are geared more towards TWH and you have the freedom to join that discussion just as we join this one. I don't see how we are using this forum any different than any other breed supporter. Im sure if i started a thread about the abuses in any other discipline that supporters of that breed would come out and defend their breed of choice just as we are.

[Dalfan]

Regardless of all that, I have found a video of a nice nice mare strutting her stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWM-VCCS09g&mode=related&search=


Sorry, I've just got to ask. Do you really find this "nice"? Natural? Beautiful??

I will admit, I am fairly uneducated on this issue, but that has to be one of the oddest things I have seen in a while. I just don't understand how anyone can put such contraptions on their horses and think it is RIGHT. They must be in tremendous pain.

Can anyone explain the purpose of this seemingly cruel practice? Why put 6 inch(??) pads on your horses feet? Why??

[CA ASB]

The TWH folks DO have multiple forums of their own - some free, some having a rather steep price. Having lurked on a few, it can be quite entertaining (I remember a rather memorable thread regarding a trainer riding a mare a few years ago that was a contender for the WGC and the trainer's name was Dick ... if ANY of you think the COTH denizens have a corner on humor and sarcasm ... these folks can give y'all a little schoolin'!).

But, it's a free country and the TWH folks, the Friesian folks, the ASB folks, the Mangalarga Marchador folks, the Paso people, the Icelandic folks et al can all show up on an ALL breed forum, eh? If they're wasting YOUR bandwidth, then don't read the thread ...

[buckeyerev]

"The thing about a BL horse is that they don't mind standing still...cuz they are so nailed to the ground with sorenss they don't wanna move...take that soreness away from them and they'll do just what my horse did...move...cuz they wanna get going....to bend and flex a horse at ANY time is a good thing...by flexing the neck it relaxes the horse...send endorpins through their system and improves on their performance, attitude and disposition...now who wouldn't wann t that at anythime from the back of the horse ?"

The Preacher[/QUOTE]

Well, Mr. Preacher, I have a lite shod show gelding that has been taught the meaning of WHOA. When I ask him to stand quietly on the rail, he does it. That is his job. Yes, horses can be taught to stand and behave while tack and equipment adjustments are being made. Are you suggesting my gelding is sore because he stands still when asked to halt on the rail, stands while waiting for a fellow exhibitor's shoe be tacked on or stands quietly in the lineup??? "Standing quietly" is something all horses should be taught, particularly a flat shod pleasure mount!

I have no problem with lateral flexion. I have taught my own lite shod show gelding to lateral flex using Downunder Horsemanship. Come now, do you think Clinton Anderson does lateral flexing excercises in the pen while running a NRHA pattern??? :lol: Flexing exercises are appropriate while practicing at home or in the warm-up pen. Once we enter the showring, we need to be showing our horse...practice time is over. Your horse should be focused on you and listening to your voice and aids. When you say WHOA, he should do just that....stand still. No flexing should be needed at this point if you did your work correctly in the practice pen. Treats are lovely, given back at the barn for a job well done.

Bottom line, I think I will continue to show my lite shod gelding right where he belongs, with other lite shod horses.:yes:

[buckeyerev]

Those ladies won many years ago---the correct fashions have changed abit!

Cordial, I know if you were showing in a WGC class, you'd spring for the formal suit, right? I know I would. All I know is that the ASB people wouldn't be caught dead without thier formals and silk top hats! :eek:

[rebecca yount]

Isn't anyone going to answer Dalfan's question? I bet not, because there is no good reason for putting instruments of torture on horses.

And why all the talking about "striving" for reform and "trying" to stop abuse? J-U-S-T
S-T-O-P D-O-I-N-G I-T!!!!! Just stop. Say it is no longer allowed. Kick the abusers out of the show. Shun them. Stop putting those horrible pads on the horses. Stop strapping their tails up. I don't know what the mystery is. One day, TWH people could decide to stop. The problem is, they don't WANT to stop. Because, in my opinion, they get money for what they do. Period.

[sublimequine]

All I've got to say is..

..thank goodness for the Saddlebred show world, and those lovely lateral gaits. ;)

[twhrider13]

Isn't anyone going to answer Dalfan's question? I bet not, because there is no good reason for putting instruments of torture on horses.

Perhaps if the question were phrased in a way that reflected a genuine desire to learn and understand, someone might dignify it with a response. As it stands, it's just a thinly veiled attempt to snipe, something akin to, "When did you stop beating your wife?"

[CA ASB]

Some questions, comments.

1 - I thought that bell boots of any type weren't allowed with the TWH anymore because of what they used to hide. I understand overstride and why a horse would wear them - but is this allowed now?

2 - Have seen lots of Big Lick horses out here and the ladies often go w/out hats. However, in a Big Lick class, always see formals (even if there aren't hats).

3 - Comment on CW. I saw this horse in CA before they left and he was lovely. I actually like his 1999 video better than this one. He looks pacey, his canter isn't as nice as 1999 (more rocking chair) and while he paddled in both, it is far more pronounced now and he comes near to crossing over in the front. Additionally, in '99, his canter was straight and true - in this video, the rider has him cranked to the left - even on the straightaway.

4 - Why are they never on the rail or even close?

5 - I'm sorry, but TREATS in the show ring? I don't care if it is to work on flexibility - treats don't belong in the show ring and they shouldn't be given when a horse has the bit in his mouth.

As I understand it, CW is really a versatility horse - correct? Please let him be good at what he does. If you want to go up against the Big Lick guys, take a good flat shod show horse (not versatility) to show off the gaits. That would underscore your point a whole lot more. Even though I'm NOT a fan of Big Lick, CW doesn't belong in that ring anymore than the BL horses belong in the versatility ring. (Just like my old 5-gaited Open horse didn't belong in a trail class ...)

[thetrainerlady]

Those ladies won many years ago---the correct fashions have changed abit!

Riiiight!...then point me to the point in the current rulebook that says "In championship classes women.... must/should/are encouraged... to wear headgear"...If you can't find it...then it becomes a "Riders Choice then" wouldn't it?...And our choice was NOT to wear one...I think what you are trying to say is that "It's your preference that women wear headgear"

And that's a acceptable thing for you...but why would come out in the public and slam someone for "Their" preference as if we had broke some rule?

Now, in our court system a judge would tell a jury that "If you find the witnesses statement to be false, you can take the rest of what they are saying as to be true or not you can accept part of their testimony or reject all of it if you think the witness is not credible..."

Makes me wanna to take the rest of what you (sometimes viciously) spew out as truth or facts as dubious.

That would be my choice

The Preacher

[thetrainerlady]

[QUOTE=cordial;2666297]Nobody has said that the industry hasn't had problems in the past, but the 12 or so years I have been in it, the industry seems to be striving to "clean-up" their act. Can't you give credit where credit is due without bringing up the past???
QUOTE]


A wiser person than me said something along the line of "If you don't remember the past, you are destined to repeat it" (something like that).....

NEVER, I MEAN NEVER! should what's been done to this horse EVER be forgotten, as many other major things in our history...people would like others to forget it so it can sliiiiiip..back into being done again....The industry has not cleaned up as much as you wanna make it out to be...folks are STILL trying to get away with soring their animals..take for an example...

Do you know why there were so many empty stalls at this years Celebration?...care to guess? People were fixin their horses off site and then driving them in time for their class...why they did that was because it was announced that certain anti-soring monitoring organizations were allowed to walk the grounds and observe and report abuses they saw...

So then if things are so much better...why would those folks feel the need to hide what they were doing by staying off site? I know when myself personally am making a statement that things have changed for me...I openly show them that they have...by being right under their nose for them to see...I think most humans react that way...but to find another way around the problem suggest to me that it ain't all what they say is not kosher..

The Preacher

[Dalfan]

Isn't anyone going to answer Dalfan's question?

I'm not really expecting an answer. I am curious though to the purpose of the pads. Oh well.

The horse in that vid - I cannot imagine what kind of "training" that horse has endured to get it to move like that. :mad:

[thetrainerlady]

I am not saying I am a huge fan of the padded walking horse canter, but the twh's are known for their "rocking chair canter" whether it is a flat show horse or padded. Watchout has NO rock to his canter at all!

But the point here is...He had a canter!!!..NO breed in the world...let me say that again...NO BREED OF HORSES IN THE WORLD! has a four beat canter but the BL horse! What they have is what is known as a "Controlled fall" that's why you see them "Pump The Reins" in time with the fall to keep them from falling...watch the video...watch it closely as they canter and then Jennie's canter...I was looking at the photos from the photographers on the Celebration website....look! Just look at those photos of their canters...nothing pretty about it...

that's why that guy...(got find his name, i think I have videos of him on my camera) almost fall off because he's hunched over jerking onhis horse to canter....I have been a a few WGC classes and never before have I seen so many bad riders.....then I thought...they were having such a hard time getting their horses to do what was asked of them vecause...they were'nt so nailed to the ground with soring that the horse actually "Resisted' their commands out of discomfort...horses cantering on the wrong lead...horses not cantering at all...horses stumbling like I've never seen beofre...it's like the horse woke up and was saying I don't want to do that!, It hurts!"...

I watched part of my own personal camera's video...and watched these horses going down the rail...noses all turned into the rail and the wide eyed, distressed look on their faces as if to be looking at the audience as they went by each person and saying..."Can you help me?!, how bout you? how bout you? Sir, can you help me?...Would somebody Puleeeease help me?!...it was comical and yet very sad......I'm trying to answer them by helping them...by putting my horse out there to convince people that we can still enjoy this breed without hurting them...

Now, let's see videos of your horse's perfect and beautiful, rocking chair canter...I showed you mind...your turn

The Preacher

[HDFarm]

But the point here is...He had a canter!!!..NO breed in the world...let me say that again...NO BREED OF HORSES IN THE WORLD! has a four beat canter but the BL horse!

WP horses.......

[thetrainerlady]

On another note, i saw one thing that i cannot understand. Please, TrainerLady, explain to me why you did what you did. Because i can't get past the thought that it was merely a publicity stunt to get attention just as it was several years ago. At that time it was a big deal and you made headlines and got booed and it was a big to do. It didn't work that way this time did it? You were ignored and spent your money to make a few rounds in the big ring and nothing more. the class would have been no different if you hadn't been there, unlike the first time when you made a big splash. If you feel you are making a statement about flat shod horses competing with padded horses then fine, that i can respect. But when you only do it twice, several years apart at the show with the biggest crowd. If you want to make a statement why not do it every weekend, that would seem to me to speak louder volumes. Im just curious

Good respectful, curious inquiry and I'd like to respond in kind, to Mr. Boy

Ever do any carpentary work? You hit a nail expecting it to sink in...but the wood is hard and resistve...so you hit it again and again until it get to the place you want it...you might even wanna hit it again with a countersink punch...well in 1998 -1999 I hit the nail of raising the conscieousness of the abuses going on with our breed...sat back (for years) and waited to see if it would sink in...it didn't...so I'm hittin it again, and again....

I simply cannot abide with the things going with these horses...I'm one of these kind of people, if I see trash along side of the raod...I'll stop with my trash bag and pick it up...you say...not my job!...It has to be somebody's! Tennessee has the reputation around the WORLD as being "The Volunteer State" ...why? Because when the need for action was before them...nobody had to ask them to sign up to do something about it...they came forth in masses to Volunteer...and what does that mean?..To put themselves on the line for someone else...(many times for ungrateful folks) Well, even though I was not born and raised here...there's something about living here that seems to just grab ya and make ya wanna get up and do something about what is before you that is wrong....Where's the problem in that?

You ever drive down the road and smell a skunk? You know that smell in your first inhale...the same for a decaying carcass...unmistakeable of what's going on...well, while in the Celebration warmup arena...the stench of illegal chemicals on those horses feet along with the rotting smell of the Trush (remember now, I'm a retired Registered Nurse, I KNOW what I'm smelling) underneath those pads was unmistakeable as with a decaying carcass of what was going on...I mean like cigarette smoke in permeates your clothes!...and all they have to do is walk by you....Now the only acceptable legal agent to be on the foot is vaseline...but vaseline does not give off such stench!...what about that?

I will keep coming out there year after year if I have to...you say there was no response this year from people...ohhhh you are so wrong...the cheers and the HUDREDS of responses we have recieved in just one week's time shows us that we ARE doing the right things....the first time it took a while for it to sink into people of what's going on...you gotta admit...that the heat of what is on the industry right now...picked up after 1999.

What you saw in my horse is NOT suppose to be the BL...it is the carriage of our foundation horses...and please don't tell me that he couldn't beat one of them...it's not about beating them or getting ribbons from a judge which is one person's opinion..it's about the carrigae of going flat and sound...

Also....for the "Walking Army"...that's those of you who brave the heat and speak up...trust and believe me when I say this...God WILL bless you and yours for being such good stewards over HIS animals he gifted us! He promises us that for fighting evil, He will bless...and.... I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY SAY AND HOW THEY SPIN IT.....THERE'S IS
NOTHING GOOD UNDER GOD'S GREEN EARTH ABOUT WHAT THEY DO TO THIS ANIMAL!!!!

So let's put it together...if The devil can do no good thing (according to the Bible)...then where is all this evil coming from? What's the source of this kind of thinking....You don't have to be a Bible carrying Sunday School attending person to know what is good
and evil, right and wrong...and you don't have to be a believer to be blessed...God says (not my words, I'm just repeating them, because I believe them) He will bless whom He sees fit to bless....

Abraham Lincoln once said "But for the Bible, we would not know right from wrong.." Again not my words, I'm just repeating them because I believe them

And trust me...saying "I don't do it...but I like to see it"...does not absolve anyone from being just as guilty... gotta change that thinking and likes about it.... rehab is needed for Lickers! LOL!

Now that's enough explaination for right now...gotta go and answer a few more of these post before I leave for the weekend...in the meantime...discuss it amongst yourselves...

The Preacher

[asb2517]

The horse in that vid - I cannot imagine what kind of "training" that horse has endured to get it to move like that. :mad:

What type of horses do you own or show? Just curious.

[thetrainerlady]

"The thing about a BL horse is that they don't mind standing still...cuz they are so nailed to the ground with sorenss they don't wanna move...take that soreness away from them and they'll do just what my horse did...move...cuz they wanna get going....to bend and flex a horse at ANY time is a good thing...by flexing the neck it relaxes the horse...send endorpins through their system and improves on their performance, attitude and disposition...now who wouldn't wann t that at anythime from the back of the horse ?"

The Preacher

Well, Mr. Preacher, I have a lite shod show gelding that has been taught the meaning of WHOA. When I ask him to stand quietly on the rail, he does it. That is his job. Yes, horses can be taught to stand and behave while tack and equipment adjustments are being made. Are you suggesting my gelding is sore because he stands still when asked to halt on the rail, stands while waiting for a fellow exhibitor's shoe be tacked on or stands quietly in the lineup??? "Standing quietly" is something all horses should be taught, particularly a flat shod pleasure mount!

I have no problem with lateral flexion. I have taught my own lite shod show gelding to lateral flex using Downunder Horsemanship. Come now, do you think Clinton Anderson does lateral flexing excercises in the pen while running a NRHA pattern??? :lol: Flexing exercises are appropriate while practicing at home or in the warm-up pen. Once we enter the showring, we need to be showing our horse...practice time is over. Your horse should be focused on you and listening to your voice and aids. When you say WHOA, he should do just that....stand still. No flexing should be needed at this point if you did your work correctly in the practice pen. Treats are lovely, given back at the barn for a job well done.

Bottom line, I think I will continue to show my lite shod gelding right where he belongs, with other lite shod horses.:yes:[/QUOTE]


Bless your heart....let's look at another Southern instutition..NASCAR....when they are on a yellow flag...the cars weave bath and forth to keep clean air going into their carbs...now I did not say that your gelding was sore now did I? I referred to the BL...didn't I?...to walk him around, keep him loose and muscles warm is nothing wrong with that...ESPECIALLY since there was a delay in a timeout as one of your precious BL's had to get his tailset put on out in the showring...notice on the video how long it took for them to come out of the shoot...?...because there were not ready...the gate should have been closed on them..but when you pay $2006.00 to enter that class as we did...they give a little time to us ...that is right...

WHY? I ask WHY? don't they get back on the rail and reverse when called for like my horse does? both Natalie and Jennie getting yelled at by riders to stand still and let them "Rest" their horses...cheeeeez...you put waaaay to much importance on this crap of what is often called Tradtions and Perceptions....WHY do they have to stop for EACH change of gait called for?

My horse...exposes ALL of these holes in the precious BL genre...and thousands of people are becoming aware of them...not because of talk...because they see the difference when put alon side a NORMAL horse carriage and way of going, and behavior under normal situations other horses could be in...too many off things with the BL..IMO

The Preacher

[Auventera Two]

I wonder how many breeds could pass this kind of scrutiny. These Government boys are not "fooling" around---they are out to get the offenders. Most people I know are all for it, and I think you will see big changes in the future. Better late then Never!

I hope you're right cordial. I hope big changes DO come.

To speak to your question about how many breeds can pass this kind of scrutiny - I'll give you my experience. I have an Arabian and I do Endurance (actually LD) riding. Before every ride, and multiple times throughout the ride at pre-determined checkpoints, the horses are THOROUGHLY checked by 2 veterinarians. Heart rate, respiration, capillary refill, complete soundness/soreness exam, temperature, and mental well being. They must eat and drink appropriatly, and recover metabolically and mentaly within a very short, prescribed timeframe. I am asked specific questions about my horse, and if anything at all raises a red flag, I don't get to compete. Or if it is something very minor, but still notable, the vets will check doubly so at the next vet stop. Every little thing is noted on your horse's card which is a part of their permanent AERC record. My rides, times, and completions are published on the internet for public viewing.

Also there is a final vet check after the 25, 35, 50, 100 miles are complete. If the horse cannot meet all criteria, and be shown sound at the conclusion of the race, then he is disqualified and doesn't get the placing because he is judged "not fit to continue."

So yes, other breeds, and other disciplines most certainly ARE subjected to rigorous scrutiny. ;)

From riding dressage, I know that bit and tack checks are also required for so many riders per class. Eventers are scrutinized also. I remember Erin speaking to this fact on the other TWH thread a year or two ago. I'm sure others with other experiences can share with you the inspections that they go through as well.

TWHs are only checked once before each class for leg/foot scars, soreness, chemicals, etc. They are not given a full body check including respiration, temperature, tack, recovery, eating/drinking, even how many times they've pooped and peed throughout the day, etc. so it's not fair at all for you to make the comments that you did. In fact, the TWH is very very MINIMALLY checked, compared to what us Endurance/Competitive Trail people get.

I always joke that only Endurance people can feel the heart rate change of their horse and innately "know" when it's up or down, because you study your horse so much. I make mental note of every runny poop along the way, every time the respiration is elevated and doesn't fall within about 2 minutes, etc. Did you know that if your girth is too tight, the horse can have poor recovery rates? Or that if your saddle pad is rubbing just a bit, the heart rate and temp can be elevated? In this discipline, you are under the microsope way more than I had ever realized until I started doing it.

[thetrainerlady]

Isn't anyone going to answer Dalfan's question? I bet not, because there is no good reason for putting instruments of torture on horses.

And why all the talking about "striving" for reform and "trying" to stop abuse? J-U-S-T
S-T-O-P D-O-I-N-G I-T!!!!! Just stop. Say it is no longer allowed. Kick the abusers out of the show. Shun them. Stop putting those horrible pads on the horses. Stop strapping their tails up. I don't know what the mystery is. One day, TWH people could decide to stop. The problem is, they don't WANT to stop. Because, in my opinion, they get money for what they do. Period.

AMEN SISTER REBECCA!!!!

The Preacher

[asb2517]

Bless your heart....let's look at another Southern instutition..NASCAR....when they are on a yellow flag...the cars weave bath and forth to keep clean air going into their carbs...The Preacher

I'm sorry but this has to be the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard. What are you saying...you flexed your horse to get more air to his lungs??

Yeah...and I just LOVE the "bless your heart" thing...

[Auventera Two]

Sorry, I've just got to ask. Do you really find this "nice"? Natural? Beautiful??

I will admit, I am fairly uneducated on this issue, but that has to be one of the oddest things I have seen in a while. I just don't understand how anyone can put such contraptions on their horses and think it is RIGHT. They must be in tremendous pain.

Can anyone explain the purpose of this seemingly cruel practice? Why put 6 inch(??) pads on your horses feet? Why??

That video has been posted here before, and it makes me feel ill each time. Notice the mare is working in blinders. They believe if the horse is blind, that it will reach more with the front legs, trying to "feel" where they are going. Much as a blind person does with a cane.

[Auventera Two]

The TWH folks DO have multiple forums of their own - some free, some having a rather steep price. Having lurked on a few, it can be quite entertaining (I remember a rather memorable thread regarding a trainer riding a mare a few years ago that was a contender for the WGC and the trainer's name was Dick ... if ANY of you think the COTH denizens have a corner on humor and sarcasm ... these folks can give y'all a little schoolin'!).

But, it's a free country and the TWH folks, the Friesian folks, the ASB folks, the Mangalarga Marchador folks, the Paso people, the Icelandic folks et al can all show up on an ALL breed forum, eh? If they're wasting YOUR bandwidth, then don't read the thread ...

Good point, and I agree. They do have a right to post here, I believe. I've tried reading the walking horse forums, and it's so scary I can't even stand to look anymore. They discuss various ways to get more "reach" out of the horse, how to chemically remove scars before shows, what chemicals they can get away with and not get picked up by the sniffer, etc.

For anyone who doesn't believe me, hang out on the Walking Horse Chat for a while.

[thetrainerlady]

Some questions, comments.

1 - I thought that bell boots of any type weren't allowed with the TWH anymore because of what they used to hide. I understand overstride and why a horse would wear them - but is this allowed now?

2 - Have seen lots of Big Lick horses out here and the ladies often go w/out hats. However, in a Big Lick class, always see formals (even if there aren't hats).

3 - Comment on CW. I saw this horse in CA before they left and he was lovely. I actually like his 1999 video better than this one. He looks pacey, his canter isn't as nice as 1999 (more rocking chair) and while he paddled in both, it is far more pronounced now and he comes near to crossing over in the front. Additionally, in '99, his canter was straight and true - in this video, the rider has him cranked to the left - even on the straightaway.

4 - Why are they never on the rail or even close?

5 - I'm sorry, but TREATS in the show ring? I don't care if it is to work on flexibility - treats don't belong in the show ring and they shouldn't be given when a horse has the bit in his mouth.

As I understand it, CW is really a versatility horse - correct? Please let him be good at what he does. If you want to go up against the Big Lick guys, take a good flat shod show horse (not versatility) to show off the gaits. That would underscore your point a whole lot more. Even though I'm NOT a fan of Big Lick, CW doesn't belong in that ring anymore than the BL horses belong in the versatility ring. (Just like my old 5-gaited Open horse didn't belong in a trail class ...)

Wow! another person NOT familiar with the rulebook...but I understand that because you are into another breed of horses which I'm sure you are probably very familiar with so I'll go easy here:lol:

Bell Boots....you are mistaken about everything you said...believe me they do not want to take that out of their rulebook because then all that's left is "ACTION Devices" and they do not want to give the impression they are anti-humane...riders simply choose not to wear them...except us...the same with humane tails...take that out and what are you left with..."Surgically cutting your horse's tail"...not a very good impression to give the world would you not say?

In CA...in 1999 we showed with 12, 5 year old stallions...today 7 of then are dead...DEAD I SAID!...makes you kinda go hmmmm doesn't it?...WO in this class was KEG SHOD! KEG SHOD I said...with a 1/2 inch wedge...I could grow his toe like he was in 1999 and slap a size #4 lite (according to every DQP that has ever touched his feet, he has the largest foot any of them has picked up) shod shoe on him (could even go bigger if I wanted to) and he'd would walk a hole in the ground...shoot he didn't do too bad this year with a keg shod shoe on....he still made them look curious with 4 inch stacks on.....


On the rail....like in driving down the freeway...slower vehicles are suppose to stay to the right :lol:

I answered the treats question in another post

The Preacher

[asb2517]

That video has been posted here before, and it makes me feel ill each time. Notice the mare is working in blinders. They believe if the horse is blind, that it will reach more with the front legs, trying to "feel" where they are going. Much as a blind person does with a cane.


So then what happens when you take the blinders off?? If a blind person can suddenly see...they aren't going to be reaching out are they? And are they full blinders or are they blinkers?

[Auventera Two]

Bless your heart....let's look at another Southern instutition..NASCAR....when they are on a yellow flag...the cars weave bath and forth to keep clean air going into their carbs...now I did not say that your gelding was sore now did I?

Actually they do it to keep their tires hot and "sticky."

[Auventera Two]

So then what happens when you take the blinders off?? If a blind person can suddenly see...they aren't going to be reaching out are they? And are they full blinders or are they blinkers?

As I was told by people on the other TWH thread, they use full blinders to get the reach. Not blinkers.

Just like any other training device, the horse will still do it even with it removed. Just like the surgical tubing bungees they tie the legs together with over the withers, and the heavier weight chains.

[asb2517]

Just like any other training device, the horse will still do it even with it removed. Just like the surgical tubing bungees they tie the legs together with over the withers, and the heavier weight chains.

That's interesting about the blinders.

Stretchers and chains are used to build up and strengthen shoulder muscles - like using those big rubber bands to work out. But the long and the short of it is - at least for ASB's...either they want to and have the ability to pick their feet up or they don't. You can't "train" ability into a horse that doesn't have it.

[Auventera Two]

I agree with you asb. Unfortunately, I think some people try too hard, to the detriment of the animal. Or so it seems.

[spina]

Bless your heart....

My horse...exposes ALL of these holes in the precious BL genre...and thousands of people are becoming aware of them...not because of talk...because they see the difference when put alon side a NORMAL horse carriage and way of going, and behavior under normal situations other horses could be in...

I loved the "bless your heart" too! May your class and good manners be an example to the rest.

As to your efforts in the ring - thank you. Don't give up. It IS working.

[Gnalli]

Different than what!!??

Different than a few years ago when it was discovered that the Celebration judges were taking bribes? Then during the following year when everyone worked to put the industry's best foot forward. (That was within the last 12 years so you should remember it!) Different than when the state ag department did a sting and convicted trainers of animal abuse? This hasn't been different at all! In fact I'd lay a bet that the same judges who got caught taking bribes are STILL involved in the industry. Just like the trainers who were back in business the day they got out of jail.

The industry DOES have a past and anyone would be a fool to ignore it. It's not pretty and enough time has not passed to dispay a break in the cycle. And saying you guys are "due credit" is ignoring your own history. Who was it who said that those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it? You guys have been repeating it over and over for the last 30+ years!

So the fact that 98-99% :) of our horses are clean and sound means nothing. Name 1 section of life that is does not have a bad apple. There is not one. Oh, I see-unless we are perfect, its not worth anything, and we should still be slammed. See that is the attitude that makes some people (not saying its right, just a fact) say well, heck, if we are gonna be condemned for it anyway no matter how good we do, then why bother.

As far as judges being bribed-oh yeah, the Walking horse industry has that tied up tight, and not one other judged event (of any sport) has that problem, and most especially not at the Olympic level.:confused: As long as a human is judging, there will room for error. :

You don't like it fine-that is your opinion, and you are welcome to it. Just quit making out like you (collectively) are perfect and we are scum because I know some truly awesome people that put a lot of blood sweat and tears-their own- into horses becasue they love them, and they don't deserve the nastiness that people heap on them. Heap it on those that do deserve it, not the whole industry. Must be nice to be perfect.

And you Preacher-why are you not honest about the fact that you are after publicity and not the good of anyone but you. Ride your horse, enjoy him, breed him, whatever, but stop stirring up stuff for the sheer purpose of stirring the pot. Comments you have made on this board have confirmed that you are not trying to better the industry, but rather to use the black eye that we have had to further yourself. That is not right.

[Gnalli]

Sorry, I've just got to ask. Do you really find this "nice"? Natural? Beautiful??

I will admit, I am fairly uneducated on this issue, but that has to be one of the oddest things I have seen in a while. I just don't understand how anyone can put such contraptions on their horses and think it is RIGHT. They must be in tremendous pain.

Can anyone explain the purpose of this seemingly cruel practice? Why put 6 inch(??) pads on your horses feet? Why??

Yes I like her. She is awesome. No, she is not in pain, the action rollers or chains can only weigh 6 oz, that is like a bracelet to us. The pads are not that tall, and they serve to have the horse increase the reach on the front end. Its not cruel.

[Auventera Two]

Yes I like her. She is awesome. No, she is not in pain, the action rollers or chains can only weigh 6 oz, that is like a bracelet to us. The pads are not that tall, and they serve to have the horse increase the reach on the front end. Its not cruel.

Perhaps in competition, but this mare in the video is being ridden in a paddock at home. It has been commented before on the TWH thread that wouldn't die, that heavier chains are often used at home, and lighter ones for show. Hence the need to use Koppertox on the legs to "toughen" the skin to prevent chain callouses. And salycilic acid to remove the "callouses" before shows. And then this leads to cleaning the chains in diesel fuel to remove all the Koppertox gunk left on them. ;)

I wear a watch on one arm, and a silver braclet on the other, and have every single day for about a year (they were gifts), and I've yet to develop a callous that needs to be removed with salycilic acid. These chains are far more than "just bracelets." And wonder of wonders - I don't even have a hair covering on my arms, or tough horse hide. I just have plain ole, delicate, naked skin on my arms. Never a single callous requiring acid for removal.

I suddenly have de ja vue. LOL

[Gnalli]

So then what happens when you take the blinders off?? If a blind person can suddenly see...they aren't going to be reaching out are they? And are they full blinders or are they blinkers?

It is kind of hard to tell from the video, but I'd be willing to bet they are blinkers.

someone said something about the training that they endure-I guarantee you its not that difficult. These horses are born doing the running walk. They are broken to saddle just like any other horse, then if they are to be padded, they are put on a small set of pads and gradually worked into a full set.

[Nun Ya]

Well Nun YA...If you read the rule books...novel idea!!!!...you see there is no rule of what you said...there have been 3 women WGC Betty Sain, Vicki Self and Judy Martin...none of these ladies wore headgear...BOOOYAA!

The Preacher


I think a "novel idea" for you my dear is to RE-READ your rule book. Look under " attire for championship classes" *DUH* and read what it states. I called the NHSC and asked if they had a website I could refer this to for you, and she said no because the rule book is not free you have to pay for it so they do not post it on the web. They have not printed a new book since 1999. So you can read the addendum's on the web but that is it. Since Betty, Vicki, and Judy the rules have changed so you need to keep up with the rules as time goes by.

BOOOYAA!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[Auventera Two]

I think a "novel idea" for you my dear is to RE-READ your rule book. Look under " attire for championship classes" *DUH* and read what it states. I called the NHSC and asked if they had a website I could refer this to for you, and she said no because the rule book is not free you have to pay for it so they do not post it on the web. They have not printed a new book since 1999. So you can read the addendum's on the web but that is it. Since Betty, Vicki, and Judy the rules have changed so you need to keep up with the rules as time goes by.

BOOOYAA!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Would it not be a fair conclusion that if CW's rider was guilty of a rulebook violation, that she would have been disqualified from the class? As I don't believe she was DQd, then I would say no rule was violated, and no harm done. Unless of course the rules aren't actually enforced, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish - ain't it? ;)

[asb2517]

Perhaps in competition, but this mare in the video is being ridden in a paddock at home. It has been commented before on the TWH thread that wouldn't die, that heavier chains are often used at home, and lighter ones for show. Hence the need to use Koppertox on the legs to "toughen" the skin to prevent chain callouses. And salycilic acid to remove the "callouses" before shows. And then this leads to cleaning the chains in diesel fuel to remove all the Koppertox gunk left on them. ;)


Good Lord ~ how heavy are the chains they are using at home if they cause callouses? Are they log chains or what? We use chains all the time on our ASB's - including one VERY thin skinned mare and have yet to have any sort of mark let alone a callous!

[cordial]

Wow! another person NOT familiar with the rulebook...but I understand that because you are into another breed of horses which I'm sure you are probably very familiar with so I'll go easy here:lol:

Bell Boots....you are mistaken about everything you said...believe me they do not want to take that out of their rulebook because then all that's left is "ACTION Devices" and they do not want to give the impression they are anti-humane...riders simply choose not to wear them...except us...the same with humane tails...take that out and what are you left with..."Surgically cutting your horse's tail"...not a very good impression to give the world would you not say?

In CA...in 1999 we showed with 12, 5 year old stallions...today 7 of then are dead...DEAD I SAID!...makes you kinda go hmmmm doesn't it?...WO in this class was KEG SHOD! KEG SHOD I said...with a 1/2 inch wedge...I could grow his toe like he was in 1999 and slap a size #4 lite (according to every DQP that has ever touched his feet, he has the largest foot any of them has picked up) shod shoe on him (could even go bigger if I wanted to) and he'd would walk a hole in the ground...shoot he didn't do too bad this year with a keg shod shoe on....he still made them look curious with 4 inch stacks on.....


On the rail....like in driving down the freeway...slower vehicles are suppose to stay to the right :lol:

I answered the treats question in another post

The Preacher

I would klike to ask the Preacher after showing his CW stud in the big stake, how many contracts for stud fees did you get??? That was the whole point of doing what you did----free advertising!!!!

[asb2517]

Wow...harsh much??

I have already admitted that I know nothing so, please educate me on why some one would show a horse which was obviously not supposed to be in that class?

I think it would be kind of like an ASB 5 gaited country pleasure horse showing in the KSF WGC Open 5 gaited class because someone dislikes pads and cut tails on ASB's? Am I right? :confused: But at the ASB world Championships you have to get a ribbon to show back in the Championship, so this would not happen.

Is this the case? Do you not have to win a ribbon in a qualifying class to show in the championship?

[pandorasboxx]

And you Preacher-why are you not honest about the fact that you are after publicity and not the good of anyone but you. Ride your horse, enjoy him, breed him, whatever, but stop stirring up stuff for the sheer purpose of stirring the pot. Comments you have made on this board have confirmed that you are not trying to better the industry, but rather to use the black eye that we have had to further yourself. That is not right.


Oh I see now. Preacher isn't altruistic enough. I get it. And all the BL riders/exhibitors/trainers are. I guess I just didn't understand that they were showing simply for the good and betterment of the breed. No publicity or personal/financial gain to see there........Warms my cockles, that does.

Do you know why there were so many empty stalls at this years Celebration?...care to guess? People were fixin their horses off site and then driving them in time for their class...why they did that was because it was announced that certain anti-soring monitoring organizations were allowed to walk the grounds and observe and report abuses they saw.....

So then if things are so much better...why would those folks feel the need to hide what they were doing by staying off site?

What-no fevered defense that this isn't so? But a lack of headgear will engender a passioned attack? :lol:


Auventura Two I've tried reading the walking horse forums, and it's so scary I can't even stand to look anymore. They discuss various ways to get more "reach" out of the horse, how to chemically remove scars before shows, what chemicals they can get away with and not get picked up by the sniffer, etc.

For anyone who doesn't believe me, hang out on the Walking Horse Chat for a while.

Yes? No? Mebbe? No matter but hey! Lets hang those damn scallawags that don't wear *gasp* headgear. Prioritize much?? Where is the outrage for all the real trangressions from the insiders club? All I see are excuses, wagon circling and all is rosy after umpteen effin' years of stomach turning abuses. And a sh*tload of vitriol for what appears to be relatively innocuous and minor "offenses". Curious.


rebecca yount
Isn't anyone going to answer Dalfan's question? I bet not, because there is no good reason for putting instruments of torture on horses.

And why all the talking about "striving" for reform and "trying" to stop abuse? J-U-S-T
S-T-O-P D-O-I-N-G I-T!!!!! Just stop. Say it is no longer allowed. Kick the abusers out of the show. Shun them. Stop putting those horrible pads on the horses. Stop strapping their tails up. I don't know what the mystery is. One day, TWH people could decide to stop. The problem is, they don't WANT to stop. Because, in my opinion, they get money for what they do. Period.

A double AMEN. Crystal clear baby. And it ain't got nutin' to do with "not knowing TWH" and everything to do w/sick f*cks getting pleasure out of this manmade abomination.

[Auventera Two]

Good Lord ~ how heavy are the chains they are using at home if they cause callouses? Are they log chains or what? We use chains all the time on our ASB's - including one VERY thin skinned mare and have yet to have any sort of mark let alone a callous!

I know. This was discussed ad nauseum on the other TWH thread a while back. The ASB people said they use training chains all the time and have never had callousing issues.

Things that make you go....hmmmmmm....

[asb2517]

I would klike to ask the Preacher after showing his CW stud in the big stake, how many contracts for stud fees did you get??? That was the whole point of doing what you did----free advertising!!!!

But how did that horse do in the class? I'm betting it got nothing, so how is that good advertising? :confused: It seems like if the horse was in the correct class and won it would be better advertising...but I guess that's just me.

[asb_own_me]

Right up there with whittling the ears of Dobermans, IMO. :(

Dopey, ( :cool: )

Every one of my Dobermans has their ears done, and every one I get in the future will. Never bothered any of them in the slightest. They also all have their tails docked - care to say anything about that? Or maybe you'd like to make a comment about my Saddlebred :rolleyes:

Wait! I'm sorry - this thread is for TWH, the Celebration, and that whole discussion/heated argument/popcorn fest that will ensue. Start your own.

[Nun Ya]

Would it not be a fair conclusion that if CW's rider was guilty of a rulebook violation, that she would have been disqualified from the class? As I don't believe she was DQd, then I would say no rule was violated, and no harm done. Unless of course the rules aren't actually enforced, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish - ain't it? ;)

The DQP'S and USDA are mainly concerned with shoeing, and soring violators. They most of the time don't know what they are talking about in terms of the shoeing violations let alone the dress code. I think it is up to the ring masters or show stewards to enforce those rules the problem with this is .... Mr. Jackson has 10,000 excuses as it is why he doesn't get to do this or that or why he does or whatever he does.... who knows, but could you imagine the hoo blah he would create if they asked her to leave for not being dressed properly? :eek: The stand everyone within the industry has decided to take with him is to just ignore him all-together they boo his horse and then leave it at that. Our stand point is just let him go and do whatever no rules shall apply to him because he wants to make a scene so by letting him do what he wants and not making a big deal out of it, he prevails nothing. Sure we all have fun poking him with a stick and watchin him spin off like a bottle rocket as he does on here now spuring out crap about nascar and whatever else. ha ha

[Auventera Two]

Well, if your stewards can't even enforce a rule saying an entrant has to wear a hat, which is obvious and blatant, then how the hell can they possibly be expected to clean house on all the covert abuse going on?! :eek:

Sounds like your industry has more serious issues than we had ever imagined. Thanks for making my point Nun Ya. :D

[cinder88]

The stand everyone within the industry has decided to take with him is to just ignore him all-together they boo his horse and then leave it at that.

"Everyone within the industry"?

So, if "everyone" can pull together to act against one competitor who ISN'T harming his/her horse, then why cannot "everyone" pull together to act against the people who ARE harming their horses?

That seems odd to me.

And, I'd like to know exactly how the whole "padded" thing came about. I'm sure there was some sort of evolution of the practise? And, I'm not necessarily talking about the soring part...just the actual mechanical padding...Why did that come about originally? When did it become so exaggerated? And WHY did it become so exaggerated? How did anyone decide where to "stop"? If 3" is good, maybe 6" is better?

Serious questions, if anyone has answers from an historical viewpoint..

Cinder

[Nun Ya]

Well, if your stewards can't even enforce a rule saying an entrant has to wear a hat, which is obvious and blatant, then how the hell can they possibly be expected to clean house on all the covert abuse going on?! :eek:

Sounds like your industry has more serious issues than we had ever imagined. Thanks for making my point Nun Ya. :D

YES I KNOW !!!!! What the hell are we going to do about all these bastards not wearing hats? Call the National Guards!!!!! Oh the humanity :no:

[Nun Ya]

"Everyone within the industry"?

So, if "everyone" can pull together to act against one competitor who ISN'T harming his/her horse, then why cannot "everyone" pull together to act against the people who ARE harming their horses?

That seems odd to me.

And, I'd like to know exactly how the whole "padded" thing came about. I'm sure there was some sort of evolution of the practise? And, I'm not necessarily talking about the soring part...just the actual mechanical padding...Why did that come about originally? When did it become so exaggerated? And WHY did it become so exaggerated? How did anyone decide where to "stop"? If 3" is good, maybe 6" is better?

Serious questions, if anyone has answers from an historical viewpoint..

Cinder

If you really want to know about the history of the walking horse try the Walkers West website. I think they have a great website.

[sunridge1]

These horses are born doing the running walk.

Not anymore. They are bred to pace because it makes them easier to train the running walk with the *clown feet*. So not only do they require the horse to move unnaturally they are breeding the very thing that makes them what they are out. We American's suck.
Mary

[Dalfan]

So not only do they require the horse to move unnaturally they are breeding the very thing that makes them what they are out.

That was my interest - why take a trait that a horse is born with that is unique and beautiful in it's own right, and then try and alter and distort to the point of being SO unnatural and grostesque? And that's what I saw in the video - a man-made monstrosity. There is nothing natural about what that horse is forced to do.

[Nun Ya]

This thread was started about how well the Celebration went this year and for the few TWH people on here to have a thread about something positive. Thank you to everyone for turning this into another "we the evil creature" threads. :no:

AT had started another thread about a year ago now about THE EXACT SAME THING. Now we are going to go through the same thing again. Can we just agree to disagree? If you don't like padded horses fine, if you do fine. Leave it at that.

Now again, how was everyone's time at the Celebration this year? Did anyone do any $$$$ spending$$$$? :lol:

[buckeyerev]

CW did not tie in either the qualifying class nor the TWH WGC. Results can be found on www.twhnc.com He got what he justly deserved since he was shown in the WRONG division. I'm sure you'd want to show your Country Pleasure ASB in the 5-gaited ASB WGC now, wouldn't you? There were plenty of Lite Shod classes to choose from, but the owner chose not to enter any of those. This was a publicity stunt, nothing more. Unfortunately, the horse struggles to get a ribbon in it's own lite shod division. Feel free to check out the International results at: www.walkinghorseowners.com

Mr. Preacher, I have shown other breeds besides TWH over the years, including SSH's, RH's, QH's and Arab's. Tradition is part of the show ring irregardless what breed you show. Comparing a class to NASCAR racing is ridiculous unless you want to talk TB racing. I could not care less about NASCAR. I'm a Yankee and we like short track drag racing! Four-beat canter??? I saw horses in the WGC class doing a true canter. But there ARE plenty of other breeds doing a 4-beat in today's showring: QH's, Paints, Apps, (all your WP stock breeds!) Haven't you ever been to the QH World Show or Congress???? Not every rider in that class was pumping the reins, although there were a few. I've seen pleasure horse riders do the same. It is poor equitation/horsemanship, nothing else! Some of our riders would benefit from lessons in proper equitation. Maybe Nicole Carswell would like to teach them? I did see several trainers sitting tall and riding properly in the WGC.

Yep, it's evident you hate the padded TWH. Great! You have that right. I detest rodeo's, calf roping, goat tying, bronc riding, bull riding, WP horses with thier nose 3" off the ground, 5 horse pile-ups at the harness track, 3-legged TB's racing w/ a broken leg prior to being euthanized behind the curtain. All these activies are legal, but I don't care for it. That is MY personal preference. I choose not to involve myself with it, not own one or ride one. Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean there aren't others that do! IMHO, you just like stirring up trouble. Very unbecoming to a preacher. A man of God is usually a bit more "humble". BTW, where did you earn your divinity degree?

[buckeyerev]

This thread was started about how well the Celebration went this year and for the few TWH people on here to have a thread about something positive. Thank you to everyone for turning this into another "we the evil creature" threads. :no:

AT had started another thread about a year ago now about THE EXACT SAME THING. Now we are going to go through the same thing again. Can we just agree to disagree? If you don't like padded horses fine, if you do fine. Leave it at that.

Now again, how was everyone's time at the Celebration this year? Did anyone do any $$$$ spending$$$$? :lol:

Nunya, we had a BALL!!!!! Yep, spent some $$$, too!!!!:)

[buckeyerev]

Not anymore. They are bred to pace because it makes them easier to train the running walk with the *clown feet*. So not only do they require the horse to move unnaturally they are breeding the very thing that makes them what they are out. We American's suck.
Mary



Mary, I don't know what kind of stock you are breeding, but my TWH babies do RW right beside mom as soon as they are up and about. :no: I have two direct sons of Silver Design (padded, multiple WGC). BOTH are lite shod and can walk a hole in the ground. This padded sire has numerous winning flat shod horses in the ring. Your analogy is hogwash. Jeesh, you people wear me out.

[Nun Ya]

I would klike to ask the Preacher after showing his CW stud in the big stake, how many contracts for stud fees did you get??? That was the whole point of doing what you did----free advertising!!!!


I think the Jackson's really love their horse like all of us here love our own. We all tend to look at our horses like they were our children and they do nothing wrong in most of our eyes. That is the case with Mr. Jackson, he loves his horse so much that he can't see that his horse looks like it is skipping, has a long back, does not know how to whoa or be still doens't perform his canter that well, I could go on and on but you get the idea. I do not think his horse would do well in a correct division and from the results or the International it would seem I am correct. But you never know because every show is another man's opinion. He is defending his horse to no end much the same way the BL people here are trying to defend their horses. It will be to no satisfaction though. People either love them or hate them with no middle area. The flipside of this is I talk with a lot of TWH people day in and day out, I have never encountered the "bashing" of another breed or disipline like we receive it here. The name calling and the snarking questions, if you don't understand something or really just wanted to know that would be one thing, but the people here have their minds made up already and are just like school children ( which is more than likely what/who they are) . The only bashing I have heard from within the TWH circle is all within. We bash each other, flatshod bashing Padded, Padded bashing flatshod it just goes full circle. The down fall of the industy will be within itself. The jacksons were hoping for a repeat of last year's Celebration and were planning on demanding to show so that if they were the only one's in the class they would be the WGC's of 2007. It didn't happen that way. Now he comes on here and tells you all that all the horses who showed against him were sore and tortured blah blah blah. Even though they passed the USDA inspection, and you know how tedious that is. Mr. Jackson is the "crap stirer of the flat shod "movement". He wants to go down in history and make a statement and he goes around knocking from door to door for supporters and sugar coats everything he says so that he may still smell like a rose. The blind leading the blind. I think it is wonderful how much they love CW and want to enjoy him I just hate the way they make a mockery out of him by doing what they do then proclaiming it to be " God's Will" when it is for self promotion or some kind of stats gain. I do not deny being an innocent bystander in the whole matter but I have decided to make an effort to try to stop doing so much bashing myself, it is shameful. I disappoint myself sometimes, but let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

And for everyone who asks "why don't you answer my question?" Well are you really asking a question? Do you really want to know why? NO. You have your mind made up and have already formed your own opinions and you don't want an answer you want to hear yourseld talk. That is why no one answers your question.

[cordial]

Not anymore. They are bred to pace because it makes them easier to train the running walk with the *clown feet*. So not only do they require the horse to move unnaturally they are breeding the very thing that makes them what they are out. We American's suck.
Mary
You are WRONG---they are breeding the foals to be "square". I won't bother to explain what "square" means because you find find a way for it be a a negative, instead of the Positive that it actually is!

[asb2517]

Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean there aren't others that do!

AMEN! Also, getting back to the callouses from the chains...does this REALLY happen, or is it more of the "I hate all things UNNATURAL people do to their horses so I'm going to blow things out of proportion" rhetoric?

[asb2517]

And for everyone who asks "why don't you answer my question?" Well are you really asking a question? Do you really want to know why? NO. You have your mind made up and have already formed your own opinions and you don't want an answer you want to hear yourseld talk. That is why no one answers your question.

I hope this wasn't directed at me, because I really wanted answers or I wouldn't have asked!! ;)

[Nun Ya]

Nunya, we had a BALL!!!!! Yep, spent some $$$, too!!!!:)

We spent to much money! :lol: I'm telling you Bedford Tack is the BOMB! We stayed over at Wiser and Sandcreek most of the time and I had to sit on my hands, do you hear me!? Oh those yearlings were beautiful! Oh and let me tell you.. there was this little girl ( 8 yrs maybe) at Wiser riding this big beautiful padded mare and horse and rider were doing so great but the bidding wasn't getting to high so the owner came out and said " Stop the bidding, this horse is sold to the girl riding her!" I almost cried, she reached down and hugged that man and was crying... oh you had to see it. Everyone clapped and cheered for her. One of the sweetest things I ever saw! :yes:

[Nun Ya]

AMEN! Also, getting back to the callouses from the chains...does this REALLY happen, or is it more of the "I hate all things UNNATURAL people do to their horses so I'm going to blow things out of proportion" rhetoric?

A little of both. Yes, some walking horses have callouses but not to many anymore.

[spookhorse]

Yes he said it was to "flex" the horse. :rolleyes: You are asked to come in the ring and stand quietly. Not come in ride around wiggle around going back and fourth , you come in find you a spot and be still until the class is called. If you need a warm up or to flex or whatever you are provided a warm up ring to do this in.

Hmmm, well then maybe all the readjustments of too-tight curb chains should be addressed in the warm-up ring, too.

Just so they won't cut off the horse's circulation or anything during the WGC class so the riders have to stop and massage it back in after every go 'round (where's my eye-rolling smiley???)

I didn't see a bunch of flexing, I saw one cookie being given, but maybe I am miscounting? Not a big deal in any show ring that I am aware of as I doubt if it caused any inconvenience to any other shower.

But I'm sure that Mrs. Jackson was inconvenienced every time all the other horses in the class had to stop and blow and catch their breaths as the class could have surely been pinned much quicker for not that huge waste of time.

[spookhorse]

AMEN! Also, getting back to the callouses from the chains...does this REALLY happen, or is it more of the "I hate all things UNNATURAL people do to their horses so I'm going to blow things out of proportion" rhetoric?

It really happens. I own a horse who came complete with scars and callous' and he wasn't even a big time show horse, but he was certainly sored to that point.

[asb2517]

But I'm sure that Mrs. Jackson was inconvenienced every time all the other horses in the class had to stop and blow and catch their breaths as the class could have surely been pinned much quicker for not that huge waste of time.

However, if this is the norm for the class, then she shouldn't have been inconvienced. Perhaps if she had shown in the correct class for her horse...;)

[spookhorse]

You are WRONG---they are breeding the foals to be "square". I won't bother to explain what "square" means because you find find a way for it be a a negative, instead of the Positive that it actually is!

Maybe breeders are starting to go back towards square more recently, but I have seen too many pacey ones produced for the BL world to discount that they were being bred for it. I've also heard it from trainers that it's easier to square up a pacey horse with pads and chains to get the desired movement than it is to do the same to a square going horse. Certainly all the research I've done points towards that.

[spookhorse]

From the TWHBEA Rulebook:

Running Walk. The running walk should be the same general motion as the flat walk, but with additional
speed. The horse should exhibit a smooth gliding, overstepping, four-cornered gait, with greater stride and
accelerated head motion. The running walk should be a free and easy gait. Horses exhibiting an exaggerated,
hesitating way of going, with a tendency to point with the front feet, are not in form. Twisting of the hocks or stifflegged
rear leg motion shall also be considered a deviation from the running walk and a horse exhibiting these
ways of going should be penalized. (emphasis mine)

Soooo... it begs me to think that the Performance division horses are indeed being bred, trained, and are then being rewarded in the show ring to do gaits outside of what is set forth in the rulebook as being desired in the breed. Because, I'm sorry, but what I have bolded above is what people outside of the BL portion of the industry see when we look at those horses. It looks spidery, gangly, and unnatural, and does not look beautiful to anyone but those involved in it. And not to mention that research has been done and it's been proven time and again that many of the ways of getting this movement is detrimental to the horses involved.

[mrd]

What amazes me is the attitude about change not happening overnight. I agree that change takes time, but 30 years before you see any progress? And the - Of course there were tickets written, but all in all a good show?
When are you going to figure out that the only acceptable level of tolerance is ZERO percent violations.

Two weeks from now, at Miller Coliseum in Murphreesboro there will be another type of large walking horse show. Anyone who is interested is invited to come watch. Come walk the barns. Come talk to the trainers and breeders and amateur exhibitors. Plantation Pleasure is the heaviest shoe division (no BL). There are no smells of chemicals, or chains or wraps or bands. No hiding, no trailering in right before the class. These horses can show in multiple classes in one afternoon and do not have to stop for rest breaks in the arena.

I applaud ALL TWH owners and trainers that do not sore their horses whether they are performance or otherwise. But remember that the Horse Protection Act was not brought about by the poling of jumpers, the forced frame of dressage horses or the head tying of WP horses. When the conversation of abuse is centered around TWH there is a reason. Let's all learn from history and stop pointing fingers at other disciplines. They have their own threads.

Glad to hear that Celebration went better than last year. It wouldn't have been a stretch to accomplish that. But the back patting isn't yet deserved.

[CA ASB]

Wow! another person NOT familiar with the rulebook...but I understand that because you are into another breed of horses which I'm sure you are probably very familiar with so I'll go easy here:lol:

Bell Boots....you are mistaken about everything you said...believe me they do not want to take that out of their rulebook because then all that's left is "ACTION Devices" and they do not want to give the impression they are anti-humane...riders simply choose not to wear them...except us...the same with humane tails...take that out and what are you left with..."Surgically cutting your horse's tail"...not a very good impression to give the world would you not say?

On the rail....like in driving down the freeway...slower vehicles are suppose to stay to the right :lol:

I answered the treats question in another post

The Preacher

Well, actually I ASKED a question about bell boots precisely because I wasn't familiar with the rule book -

And, if the slower vehicles are supposed to stay to the right (outside/rail) how come at the running walk, the horses on the rail are seen passing WO? He is also seriously off the rail, not just off the rail - to the point that he is on the grass middle section at times. That's not just off the rail in my books - that's nearly buzzing the judges. Again, why? Especially because he was being passed by horses on the rail. And, at the walk, I would think the slower the better - to differentiate between the two gaits ... so wouldn't he have been actually going too fast at the walk?

You stated why the horse was given treats - I offered my opinion as to what I think of treats being given in the show ring. Don't see it being done by any breed anywhere, and was taught that it was a huge no-no when a horse has a bit in his mouth. Treats are rewards AFTER work is done. Bit = work. That's why my horses aren't allowed to graze on the trail when they have bits in their mouths ...

Interestingly enough, you point out the horses whose heads are cranked to the outside during the canter and offer some reasons as to why, yet you haven't explained why your horse's head was cranked to the inside and the horse was not going straight and true during the canter (and not just on the turns).

If you want to use the NASCAR analogy - you are taking a Busch series car and asking it to compete in the Cup series. I am no fan of BL, and I understand you love your horse, but PLEASE let him excel at what he does. Find another horse that has tremendous natural motion, great conformation and fabulous (non-pacey) gaits and take that horse in the ring flatshod. You'll make your point a whole lot more.

[asb2517]

If you want to use the NASCAR analogy - you are taking a Busch series car and asking it to compete in the Cup series. I am no fan of BL, and I understand you love your horse, but PLEASE let him excel at what he does. Find another horse that has tremendous natural motion, great conformation and fabulous (non-pacey) gaits and take that horse in the ring flatshod. You'll make your point a whole lot more.

Busch series?? You are giving that horse alot of credit...more like ARCA! :lol:

I completely agree with your last sentence also. I'm just not sure of what the point was except to stir up trouble. If the horse didn't get a ribbon and wasn't competetive then I don't know how it adds up to positive advertising for that horse/farm. What are they going to do...advertise they didn't place?? :confused:

[buckeyerev]

We spent to much money! :lol: I'm telling you Bedford Tack is the BOMB! We stayed over at Wiser and Sandcreek most of the time and I had to sit on my hands, do you hear me!? Oh those yearlings were beautiful! Oh and let me tell you.. there was this little girl ( 8 yrs maybe) at Wiser riding this big beautiful padded mare and horse and rider were doing so great but the bidding wasn't getting to high so the owner came out and said " Stop the bidding, this horse is sold to the girl riding her!" I almost cried, she reached down and hugged that man and was crying... oh you had to see it. Everyone clapped and cheered for her. One of the sweetest things I ever saw! :yes:

Oh yeah, Bedford Tack! Love it! Looked for a day coat, but they didn't have one that jumped out at me. No horse shopping, hubby did enough damage at KY After Christmas Sale. The nice man at the sale who owned the above mentioned horse at the sale was Charles Gleghorn. His GD showed the Leadline WGC.

[sunridge1]

What it shows is the glaring characature of the BL compared to a normal moving TWH. And if that's all it does, that in itself in enough.
Mary

[alljokesaside]

My mother in law's BL's shoes weigh less than my shoes do. They're built up, like you normally see, but a lot of it's pad. I wish I had that much padding in my heels. Riding him is like riding in a BMW. :)

People have issues with everything. Someone, somewhere has an issue with how you raise and treat your horse. It doesn't matter what it is, whether you own a barnful of BL TWHs, Saddlebreds, eventers or TBs. Someone, somewhere doesn't like you for it. I don't care if you take the best care in the world of your horse - it's going to happen. Just like raising children. Someone has an issue with how YOU have raised your child. Drop the whole pointing fingers thing because people have BLs. Good for them. If you don't have something nice to say, then don't say it at all. :P

[CA ASB]

But Sunridge - the natural TWH is a glorious mover with a beautiful gait. The horse that has been selected to show is pacey and does not show off the beautiful gaits of the TWH. He has changed since 1999. I remember seeing him in CA and watching him win regularly and he was lovely. This current video shows a pacey horse that despite the flexing exercises done sets his jaw and has his head pulled to the inside during the canter. IMO, that defeats the purpose of showing up the Big Lick ... two wrong ways of going do NOT make a right (or even a point). :eek:

I also remember Rev. Jackson and his family as being quite reasonable and lovely to talk with, so it seems that they too have changed. :(

[sunridge1]

CA ASB,
I understand that the horse isn't moving properly. And agree there is a big difference between 1999 and 2007. But it still shows the big difference. My thing, because my family experienced it with a former BL, are the rear legs. DSLD anyone. To me that's worse than anything and if you've never seen it, it's horrible. So sad for this wonderful horse that tried so hard to please. If you are in the upper echelon's of any competitive horse event, I'll bet my last dollar, in some way, shape or form, great advantage has been taken of the tremedous generosity of these animals. And I'm tired of it. They are cheating. Whatever happened to just leaving out the gimmicks and judging a horse on it's own merit.

I'll tell you, whether it was a TWH, ASB, QH, WB. One horse did it without and the only way others could was with help. Then they change the rules so it's not considered cheating, but it is, especially the horse.
Mary

[Auventera Two]

If you don't like padded horses fine, if you do fine. Leave it at that.

It goes WAY beyond "not liking something." It's an issue of grotesque abuse and defilement of one of the horse industry's most fantastic breeds. There are plenty of breeds and/or disciplines I just plain don't care for, but nothing comes close to the parody I see in the stacked big lick horses. Forcing a horse to look like a spider on steroids will eventually become just flat UNACCEPTABLE to the horse world at large. I love TWHs. I think they are noble, beautiful, and forgiving breed with so many talents and abilities. I think humans have taken advantage of their nature and molested them to the point of atrocity.

[Auventera Two]

YES I KNOW !!!!! What the hell are we going to do about all these bastards not wearing hats? Call the National Guards!!!!! Oh the humanity :no:

I believe that YOU are the person freaked out because CW's rider wasn't wearing a tophat. Appears that it didn't bother anyone else, including the stewards, or the judges. :cool: :winkgrin:

[Auventera Two]

What it shows is the glaring characature of the BL compared to a normal moving TWH. And if that's all it does, that in itself in enough.
Mary

Exactly. Well said. Most of all, I think it shows how terrifying that big lick canter is. the '99 videos showed it even better because the camera person wasn't zoomed in on CW as much.

[Nun Ya]

Oh yeah, Bedford Tack! Love it! Looked for a day coat, but they didn't have one that jumped out at me. No horse shopping, hubby did enough damage at KY After Christmas Sale. The nice man at the sale who owned the above mentioned horse at the sale was Charles Gleghorn. His GD showed the Leadline WGC.

Ahhhhhh I bought a new jacket. :lol: It jumped on me wouldn't get off so I had to buy it!!!

[Nun Ya]

What it shows is the glaring characature of the BL compared to a normal moving TWH. And if that's all it does, that in itself in enough.
Mary

Well then, if there isn't a big enough difference between the two that you need to put a poorly gaiting lite shod horse up next to the cream of the crop padded horses so that people can see the difference........ I just don't know what to say about that. So ANNNNNNIT wrong again. It was done so he could have every one see his horse ( because they all get up and go to the bathroom during lite-shod class) and thus increase his stud fee. This is a statement made on another thread by none other than Mr. Jackson himself.

[Auventera Two]

http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/index.htm

Check out Avalon Photography for some interesting comparison photos of Watchout and the big lick horses. Some of those photos are horrifying, as far as I'm concerned. :cry: Not just on that link, but on the main page - just click through them here:

http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/eproofs.htm

One bad picture can be forgiven - one moment in time. But hundreds upon hundreds of them start to prove a point.

[asb_own_me]

Bless whoever came up with the ignore feature on the BB. They save me (and I'm sure, plenty of others) from seeing "two" many silly posts ;)

[buckeyerev]

"Two weeks from now, at Miller Coliseum in Murphreesboro there will be another type of large walking horse show. Anyone who is interested is invited to come watch. Come walk the barns. Come talk to the trainers and breeders and amateur exhibitors. Plantation Pleasure is the heaviest shoe division (no BL). There are no smells of chemicals, or chains or wraps or bands. No hiding, no trailering in right before the class. These horses can show in multiple classes in one afternoon and do not have to stop for rest breaks in the arena."

Thank goodness for the NWHA's National. It provides all those a chance to get a ribbon who couldn't get one at the Celebration. Smells of chemicals? Must we drag you nice people kicking and screaming into the year 2007? Can we leave the 1970's???? NWHA has it's own cloud of controversy. Even founding fathers have jumped ship. Irregardless, the barefoot, low-headed, corncob-roller, trips-over-dust types have a chance here. If they can't get a ribbon at NWHA, they can always go to FOSH, but will have to give up thier plantation shoes, since FOSH says they are baaaaaaad!

[asb_own_me]

I have a question. This photo: http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25638.htm

Was this horse starting his canter, or was he being naughty? Don't flame me - this is a legit question. I can't tell. It looks a little like he's going up to rear, but I think the horse in front is cantering.

This: http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25676.htm
looks incredible. I've never been on any TWH, certainly not a BL horse, but it looks absolutely exhilarating.

I'll also add, for those who are convinced that all BL horses are horribly abused and in horrifying pain....look at the photos of them all in the lineup. They all look happy. Ears perked, relaxed expressions:
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25720.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25718.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25719.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25721.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25722.htm

And then. WOW.
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25725.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25736.htm

[Nun Ya]

I believe that YOU are the person freaked out because CW's rider wasn't wearing a tophat. Appears that it didn't bother anyone else, including the stewards, or the judges. :cool: :winkgrin:


No you said it must have been ok because the DQP didn't catch it, well their job is to inspect the horses feet not the riders head. And like I said before it did bother more people beside just "lil ol me" but if you do anything about it the Jackson's will have a press conference. sheeze I so glad you decided to join in on this topic on HOW GREAT THE CELEBRATION was this year, and start your crap.

[Auventera Two]

The 2 year old WGC class is quite interesting. Many things to take note of in some of these photos.

http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/202_Class161/index.htm

[Auventera Two]

No you said it must have been ok because the DQP didn't catch it, well their job is to inspect the horses feet not the riders head. And like I said before it did bother more people beside just "lil ol me" but if you do anything about it the Jackson's will have a press conference.

What about these people? Did they accidentally get missed too?

Apparently, hats are optional. And these pics were from the first couple of links I clicked. I'm sure I could find 100 more. I'm honestly not trying to be snotty Nunya - just trying to figure out what this tophat rule is all about. Obviously it's not enforced. Maybe it's not a rule, like you think it is? I'm curious why you are slamming CW's rider so heavily for not wearing one, when it appears to be common place.

http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/206_Class165/TWH07_165_25426.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/206_Class165/TWH07_165_25495.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/197_Class156/TWH07_156_23955.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/197_Class156/TWH07_156_23959.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/197_Class156/TWH07_156_23982.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/204_Class163/TWH07_163_25244.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/204_Class163/TWH07_163_25254.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/097_Class69/TWH07_09918.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/097_Class69/TWH07_09921.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/097_Class69/TWH07_09944.htm

[Nun Ya]

I have a question. This photo: http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25638.htm

Was this horse starting his canter, or was he being naughty? Don't flame me - this is a legit question. I can't tell. It looks a little like he's going up to rear, but I think the horse in front is cantering.

This: http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25676.htm
looks incredible. I've never been on any TWH, certainly not a BL horse, but it looks absolutely exhilarating.

I'll also add, for those who are convinced that all BL horses are horribly abused and in horrifying pain....look at the photos of them all in the lineup. They all look happy. Ears perked, relaxed expressions:
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25720.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25718.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25719.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25721.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25722.htm

And then. WOW.
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25725.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25736.htm

It is hard to tell from the photos if he was cutting up or just starting his canter.

[CA ASB]

Sunridge - BL is so far out there that you are either going to like it or not like it. You really don't need to have a "difference" pointed out. And, whether WE like it or not - those stands were packed with 25,000 screaming fans ... so the BL marketing machine isn't apt to stand down. This event rakes in serious $$s for Shelbyville and is ranked one of the top 20 events in the entire South to go to (right up there with Talladega and NASCAR). If they want change to occur, it's going to need to hit them in the pocketbook, and so far, it isn't (hence the lack of substantial change over the past 30 years).

But, if there was a point to be made (other than self-serving aggrandizement which I am truly hoping that this wasn't) and that the point is that there is another way to enjoy these horses - then *my* point is that it should be done with a correct moving horse. To me, either bring a really good one that is flatshod, or let the BL stand (or fall) on their own. I am not a fan of the BL motion, and you can call me contrarian - but using this class to make a statement :confused: isn't helping to bring about any sort of change. In all honesty, the BL folks have learned how to not call attention to the Jackson's "cause." They seemingly ignore them.

[Nun Ya]

What about these people? Did they accidentally get missed too?

Like I said Nunya, apparently, you are the only person with a big "top hat" problem here.

Apparently, hats are optional. And these pics were from the first couple of links I clicked. I'm sure I could find 100 more. I'm honestly not trying to be snotty Nunya - just trying to figure out what this tophat rule is all about. Obviously it's not enforced. Maybe it's not a rule, like you think it is? If you have your rulebook handy, could you let me know? Thanks! :)

http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/206_Class165/TWH07_165_25426.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/206_Class165/TWH07_165_25495.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/197_Class156/TWH07_156_23955.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/197_Class156/TWH07_156_23959.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/197_Class156/TWH07_156_23982.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/204_Class163/TWH07_163_25244.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/204_Class163/TWH07_163_25254.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/097_Class69/TWH07_09918.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/097_Class69/TWH07_09921.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/097_Class69/TWH07_09944.htm


These pictures all came from the stake class huh? You don't understand the divisions and have no idea what you are talking about you are only trying to pick fights and start crap and all for what I don't know :no:

At ANY breed show, for the BIG finale class would you go out there wearing something plain or would you wear a formal suit? Anyway if you don't beleave me call the NHSC. END OF DISCUSSION!

[dreamer2313]

"Thank goodness for the NWHA's National. It provides all those a chance to get a ribbon who couldn't get one at the Celebration. Smells of chemicals? Must we drag you nice people kicking and screaming into the year 2007? Can we leave the 1970's???? NWHA has it's own cloud of controversy. Even founding fathers have jumped ship. Irregardless, the barefoot, low-headed, corncob-roller, trips-over-dust types have a chance here. If they can't get a ribbon at NWHA, they can always go to FOSH, but will have to give up thier plantation shoes, since FOSH says they are baaaaaaad!"

I haven't posted since last year at about this time, but just wanted to respond to the NWHA bashing. A number of the horses that will be showing at the Nationals did show at the Celebration as well as the International and did place (including blue ribbons). We have shown at NHSC shows, TWHBEA shows and NWHA shows. The Nationals have been expanded to 5 days and I believe is now one of the largest, if not the largest flat shod TWH show in the country. I realize that every group has their individuals that are at the extremes, but most in NWHA just want to show their sound flat shod horses as I'm sure that most in all groups want to do. Feel free to bring your flat shod horses and show, but any "barefoot, low-headed, corncob-roller, trips-over-dust types" are not likely to place very well.

[Auventera Two]

Nunya, I was asking you a question, so relax. Those came from 2 different links, and I don't remember what the classes were. But again I will ask you to pull out your rule book and please let me know what it says about top hats. I'm genuinely curious.

[Nun Ya]

Does everyone remember last year when AT or as she was known at that time Two Simple, posted all theses pictures from that years Celebration? She really gets stirred up this time of year for as long as someone feeds her trollish needs, then she'll move on to the next thing.

Her and Mr. Jackson are like bottles of gas to run around and poor on the little sparks to try to cause a fire.

[Nun Ya]

Nunya, I was asking you a question, so relax. Those came from 2 different links, and I don't remember what the classes were. But again I will ask you to pull out your rule book and please let me know what it says about top hats. I'm genuinely curious.

I am not sure what page but I will get it for you tonight. The amended changes are already on the web, I am not sure if it is on there or not. I called the NHSC to make sure I was correct before I kept on and I was reassured I was correct all except that the gloves were optional.

[Auventera Two]

Does everyone remember last year when AT or as she was known at that time Two Simple, posted all theses pictures from that years Celebration? She really gets stirred up this time of year for as long as someone feeds her trollish needs, then she'll move on to the next thing.

Her and Mr. Jackson are like bottles of gas to run around and poor on the little sparks to try to cause a fire.

No, actually I'm interested in discussion. And right now I'm trying to ask you about top hats.

And to answer your previous question - I went back and looked, and most of the photos I posted were from the World Grand Championship classes (156, 165, 163). Only 3 of the photos were found on a "non" WGC link.

I honestly don't care one way or the other, but you used the top hat (or lack thereof) as an attack against Watchout's rider, and I'm interested in your clarification.

[Auventera Two]

I am not sure what page but I will get it for you tonight. The amended changes are already on the web, I am not sure if it is on there or not. I called the NHSC to make sure I was correct before I kept on and I was reassured I was correct all except that the gloves were optional.

For what classes? Everything, or only the WGC classes?

And again I will ask you - how hard is it for a judge to see a missing tophat (looks glaringly obvious to me) and issue a DQ to the competitor for failing to comply with attire rules? I guarantee if you went into a Hunter class (where there can be 20+ horses on the rail) without your helmet, you'd get booted. "IF" you ever made it past the ring steward in the first place! (providing that this is in fact a rule in Hunter land. I don't know if it is or not ??)

Honestly, if they can't see a missing tophat, what else are they missing that is much much less obvious?

[Nun Ya]

From the TWHBEA Rulebook:

Running Walk. The running walk should be the same general motion as the flat walk, but with additional
speed. The horse should exhibit a smooth gliding, overstepping, four-cornered gait, with greater stride and
accelerated head motion. The running walk should be a free and easy gait. Horses exhibiting an exaggerated,
hesitating way of going, with a tendency to point with the front feet, are not in form. Twisting of the hocks or stifflegged
rear leg motion shall also be considered a deviation from the running walk and a horse exhibiting these
ways of going should be penalized. (emphasis mine)

Soooo... it begs me to think that the Performance division horses are indeed being bred, trained, and are then being rewarded in the show ring to do gaits outside of what is set forth in the rulebook as being desired in the breed. Because, I'm sorry, but what I have bolded above is what people outside of the BL portion of the industry see when we look at those horses. It looks spidery, gangly, and unnatural, and does not look beautiful to anyone but those involved in it. And not to mention that research has been done and it's been proven time and again that many of the ways of getting this movement is detrimental to the horses involved.

The TWHBEA book isn't worth the paper it is printed on. No one abides by those rules only NHSC. tHE ONLY WAY twhbea rules apply is at their shows.

[asb2517]

I honestly don't care one way or the other, but you used the top hat (or lack thereof) as an attack against Watchout's rider, and I'm interested in your clarification.

This whole hat - no hat thing is so minor. I mean really, there was so much more wrong with the picture that the hat isn't even worth mentioning.

Ever think that the stewards didn't disqualify them because they knew they didn't have a snowballs chance of getting a ribbon so why bother?

[Nun Ya]

For what classes? Everything, or only the WGC classes?

And again I will ask you - how hard is it for a judge to see a missing tophat (looks glaringly obvious to me) and issue a DQ to the competitor for failing to comply with attire rules? I guarantee if you went into a Hunter class (where there can be 20+ horses on the rail) without your helmet, you'd get booted. "IF" you ever made it past the ring steward in the first place! (providing that this is in fact a rule in Hunter land. I don't know if it is or not ??)

Honestly, if they can't see a missing tophat, what else are they missing that is much much less obvious?

And I'll tell you again for the ump tenth time that the whole idea is to IGNORE them completely, to act as if she wasn't even there. They saw her and we all laughed and got a chuckle and a chance to welcome them into the ring with a ground rattling BOO. And then the show must go on. Now so should you.

[twhrider13]

Yes, there are still problems in the industry. Yes, someone should have gotten off their asses and cleaned it up a long time ago. No, I am not going to take full responsibility for that. I'm 23 years old. The trouble started long before then. MY horses in MY barn are sound as a dollar. None of them are padded at the moment, but that's a function of not enough money and not enough time. I will own some more padded horses if I ever get out of school. :winkgrin: I do what I can to fight against the bad apples, but I'm not going to tell these stories because I'm not one for tooting my own horn.

Yes, the industry deserves some recognition. Last year at the Celebration, the show was basically stopped because of the violations and the presence of the USDA. Many on this board said that the USDA was the horses' only hope against these evil owners and trainers, etc. This year at the Celebration, the USDA commended the owners and trainers for their perfectly sound, free-moving, happy horses. Now, according to the armchair experts, even the USDA doesn't know what it's talking about. Come on, folks, you can't have it both ways.

This is not just something that happened at one show. This is a trend that began at the first part of the year and has been gaining momentum ever since. I posted several weeks ago about the 99.8% compliance rate at some of the larger one-night shows before the Celebration. We don't know what went on behind closed doors between last year's Celebration and the beginning of this year's show season. The Trainers' Association gained new leadership, who is dedicated to stomping out the "bad apples." Everyone's been read the Riot Act. They have the choice to get with the times (sound, happy, free-moving horses) or suffer the consequences.

Yes, the industry deserves recognition. Yeah, it took them too long to get started, but that shouldn't take away from the gains made recently. "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step" and all that.

[Auventera Two]

And I'll tell you again for the ump tenth time that the whole idea is to IGNORE them completely, to act as if she wasn't even there. They saw her and we all laughed and got a chuckle and a chance to welcome them into the ring with a ground rattling BOO. And then the show must go on. Now so should you.

The point I am trying to get at, is that if in fact wearing a top hat is a RULE, and it is being VIOLATED, and the competitor is still not being booted out, then what other less obvious violations are slipping under the table?!

Ignore them? They blatantly go out there in the ring, in front of the judge and break the rules, and everyone just IGNORES them? Why not call out their number, and DQ them out of the ring for breaking a rule?

I don't care about the hat, and I agree that it's so minor, it's laughable. But my whole point is that the industry's (judges, stewards, competitors), answer to someone breaking the rules is to just IGNORE IT. Let's not DQ them for breaking the rules. Let's just ignore it.

Nice. If they can't even monitor a tophat that's out there for God and everybody to see, how, for Pete's sake, do they propose to tell the public that they are monitoring what goes on beneath all those pads and shoes?

[grey_pony]

I can appreciate that the big lick enthusiasts here do not sore their horses or engage in abusive practices. It is true there is abuse in all disciplines. There will always be bad apples.

However as an outsider looking in I just can't say this is a choice of "take it or leave it." Us outsiders look at this and see it as abuse. And some of us do know a bit about horses. I would say its nearly impossible to change a person's mind about big lick walking horses... you like it, or you don't. I think you'd have to grow up around it, or along the line become desensitized to it... because horses are just NOT supposed to move that way. The canter is especially atrocious. While I'm sure it's alot of fun sitting on one of those horses (if you could just not think about the animal's enjoyment for a second) it is unnecessary to make them so un-natural.

I respectfully request each of you big lick enthusiasts to walk around in 4 inch stilettos for the next few months. Stay on your feet all day and most of the night too. And perform all of your athletic activities in those shoes. Then tell me there is absolutely no discomfort or negative effects from having your legs jacked up that high, and at a wierd angle. Will you take me up on my suggestion, or is it just your horses you like to torture? That is all.

[Nun Ya]

The point I am trying to get at, is that if in fact wearing a top hat is a RULE, and it is being VIOLATED, and the competitor is still not being booted out, then what other less obvious violations are slipping under the table?!

Ignore them? They blatantly go out there in the ring, in front of the judge and break the rules, and everyone just IGNORES them? Why not call out their number, and DQ them out of the ring for breaking a rule?

I don't care about the hat, and I agree that it's so minor, it's laughable. But my whole point is that the industry's (judges, stewards, competitors), answer to someone breaking the rules is to just IGNORE IT. Let's not DQ them for breaking the rules. Let's just ignore it.

Nice. If they can't even monitor a tophat that's out there for God and everybody to see, how, for Pete's sake, do they propose to tell the public that they are monitoring what goes on beneath all those pads and shoes?

Ahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This woman is going to drive me insane! :eek:

[Auventera Two]

Well Nunya, if you don't want to discuss these things, then don't bring it up. It is you who freaked out that she didn't have a tophat on. So now I'm asking you the questions. What you do with the questions is up to you. *shrug*

YOU said it is a rule violation. So obviously there's a whole lot of people abusing the rules and violating them. But seemingly, the authorities don't care. Instead they just want to "ignore" them.

Do you understand how ignorant this sounds, and the bigger issue that it brings up?

[asb2517]

because horses are just NOT supposed to move that way. The canter is especially atrocious. While I'm sure it's alot of fun sitting on one of those horses (if you could just not think about the animal's enjoyment for a second) it is unnecessary to make them so un-natural.


Quite honestly, there are MANY discipline that have their horses move in "un-natural" ways. Look at Quarter horses...I've never seen a horse loose in the pasture cantering like that. Look at Dressage horses...again, ever seen a loose horse in the pasture doing that?? Nope, not me. Do you dislike all those other "un natural" disciplines?

[walkinthewalk]

I heard that attendance was down, and vendor booths were way down too. I
I am at home on the slow computer. Anyone that cares to can go to www.t-g.com (Shelbyville Times-Gazette) and read about the "record" or "near record" attendance during the middle of the week classes.

There were 24,000 people in attendance the last night. I believe the record of 30,000 and standing room only was set back in 2002, but I could be mistaken. 24,000 in attendance is nothing to sneeze at.

Unless one had horses at the Celebration or lives in the county, one has NO IDEA of the behind-the-scenes events that took place to make every effort to make this Celebration successful. You can read things regarding the trainers and the USDA, but ya still don't know the entire story if'n your feet weren't actually in the stew pot.

I tip my trail riding old-fogy hat to all who participated in the head-bangin-there-aren't-enough-Excedrin-to-get-thru-these-meetings:winkgrin:

As soon as my boss gets the numbers from the Noon Rotary Food Booth that she was in charge of and caused me to have to work all week instead of part of the week, I will post them.

I live 12 miles from the Celebration Grounds and work less than a mile from it. The scuttlebutt I am hearing, both from the horse world and as the Celebration applies to our county financially, is that it was a big success and everyone is smiling - or nearly everyone because there are always naysayers no matter what genre is being talked about.

I only read the first page of these posts because some posts are already getting nas-taay, I have to run the vacuum and don't want to be running into the Rottweiler for personal satisfaction due to ill-tempered comments:D


That's my two cents and will be my only two cents on this thread

[Nun Ya]

I can appreciate that the big lick enthusiasts here do not sore their horses or engage in abusive practices. It is true there is abuse in all disciplines. There will always be bad apples.

However as an outsider looking in I just can't say this is a choice of "take it or leave it." Us outsiders look at this and see it as abuse. And some of us do know a bit about horses. I would say its nearly impossible to change a person's mind about big lick walking horses... you like it, or you don't. I think you'd have to grow up around it, or along the line become desensitized to it... because horses are just NOT supposed to move that way. The canter is especially atrocious. While I'm sure it's alot of fun sitting on one of those horses (if you could just not think about the animal's enjoyment for a second) it is unnecessary to make them so un-natural.

I respectfully request each of you big lick enthusiasts to walk around in 4 inch stilettos for the next few months. Stay on your feet all day and most of the night too. And perform all of your athletic activities in those shoes. Then tell me there is absolutely no discomfort or negative effects from having your legs jacked up that high, and at a wierd angle. Will you take me up on my suggestion, or is it just your horses you like to torture? That is all.

This argument has already been brought up and that is all. :rolleyes: I take it as you don't like it and that is fine, no one here wants to pull you over to the "darkside" but hey respect us enough to not make up lies and opinions and slanderize our horses because you don't like them. If you don't understand something that is one thing but to be a self proclaimed expert because you had a pony when you were growing up doesn't mean you are correct on your assumptions and doesn't give anyone the right to bash our horses because you "think" it is abuse. I am not saying you in pacifically do/did this but over all this is what tends to happen someone starts a little snowball and *WHAM* it turns into a hugh mess.

[Auventera Two]

Quite honestly, there are MANY discipline that have their horses move in "un-natural" ways. Look at Quarter horses...I've never seen a horse loose in the pasture cantering like that. Look at Dressage horses...again, ever seen a loose horse in the pasture doing that?? Nope, not me. Do you dislike all those other "un natural" disciplines?

You actually have a very good point here. I agree with you that humans often take advantage of such a gracious creature like the horse. There are other things in other disciplines that I don't care for, certainly. Peanut rolling QHs, rollkurred dressage horses, TBs racing at 2. And there are other threads to discuss those issues as well. It's a fact that humans are a greedy and self-serving species. That's why I do my best to not push my horses beyond what they are easily capable of. They are suited to my discipline, they are quite happy to be doing it, and I don't go to great lengths to "get them to do" what I want to do. I don't use gadgets of any kind. I use a saddle and a bridle, and that's it. And a lot of times I just climb on bareback and go for a ride. I'm not a tree hugger type that believes all the pretty ponies should run free. Even I have many rules to abide by in my life, and have to do things like work, and clean my house, that I'd rather not, but that's kind of the rules of the universe. But I do believe there are limits.

[Nun Ya]

Well Nunya, if you don't want to discuss these things, then don't bring it up. It is you who freaked out that she didn't have a tophat on. So now I'm asking you the questions. What you do with the questions is up to you. *shrug*

YOU said it is a rule violation. So obviously there's a whole lot of people abusing the rules and violating them. But seemingly, the authorities don't care. Instead they just want to "ignore" them.

Do you understand how ignorant this sounds, and the bigger issue that it brings up?

No dear I didn't make a BIG deal of it. YOU keep bringing it up making the big deal. Your questions have been answered over and over and you still wonder around all doe eyed saying "well you brought it up." Yes I did and you can always be counted on to beat a dead horse can't you?

[buckeyerev]

Well, you guys will have to fight the battle without me. I'm packed up and leaving for a horse show with my baaaaaaaaaaaad TWH's. Good luck!

I'm out!

buckeyerev:D

[Nun Ya]

. And there are other threads to discuss those issues as well.

Yes and this thread was not started to be a "BASH OF THE TWH" thread but it has been turned into that. :no: And it most certainly was not intended for you to start your mess but you have, like I said your ever true colors come shining through.

[Nun Ya]

Well, you guys will have to fight the battle without me. I'm packed up and leaving for a horse show with my baaaaaaaaaaaad TWH's. Good luck!

I'm out!

buckeyerev:D

Your right buckeyerev, and I am not fixing to get into a pissing match with AT again. :no:

The thing is that I don't hate AT even though she gets off on making me spin like a top. :lol:
I find her amusing.

[Nun Ya]

http://www.nationalhorseshowcommission.org/addendum2007.pdf

Here are some of the rules that have changed since 1999.

[grey_pony]

asb2517 - I will pick on other disciplines and my own too... :D I do dressage. I'm not a fan of hyperflexion, overbending or whatever you want to call it. I don't like seeing spurs overused, horses pushed out of their mental comfort zone for flamboyant movement, use of double bridles for control, pounds of contact in the hand, etc. That is not what dressage is supposed to be. The thing is you CAN see nearly all of the dressage movements on a horse in the pasture... except I've never seen one do a line of tempi changes, or a full pirouette. But dressage is just using everything god already gave the horse, and teaching him to do it when you ask. Good dressage is dancing, bad dressage is awful to watch.

Western pleasure: I am not a fan of draw reins. I am not a gadget person so can't even name what I have seen in western pleasure barns... they really do have some special stuff to get those heads down. It is pretty bad. I don't support that either.

Reining: OK, reiners can go on and on about how their horse is "collected" but collection is much more than a headset.... and the reining trainers I have seen rely heavily on draw reins as well. Most reining, to me, looks like horses running onto the forehand. I don't like that either.

In fact I guess I am a dressage snob because I really believe everything becomes more beautiful when done in correct dressage balance... that is, correct balance. Everyone benefits from dressage... hunters, jumpers, reiners, WP. It is just a horse moving correctly (with the burden of the rider's weight upon its back). Unfortunately I don't think there is a way to train a big lick horse to move that way without being specially shod. So in this instance dressage would not help. If the judges are looking for an un-natural way of going, then no amount of plain old correct riding will get you that peanut rolling WP horse, or that big lick movement. You have to use "other" methods to get there, and those methods just happen to be things I don't approve of.

[grey_pony]

I'm packed up and leaving for a horse show with my baaaaaaaaaaaad TWH's.

I know you meant this tongue-in-cheek but nobody thinks the horses are the bad ones....

[Auventera Two]

No dear I didn't make a BIG deal of it. YOU keep bringing it up making the big deal. Your questions have been answered over and over and you still wonder around all doe eyed saying "well you brought it up." Yes I did and you can always be counted on to beat a dead horse can't you?

Well, lets just say you heard my point loud and clear. ;)

[Nun Ya]

Well, lets just say you heard my point loud and clear. ;)

Your right I heard you, don't know about loud and clear kinda more like a wet fart.

[easygaiting]

http://www.nationalhorseshowcommission.org/addendum2007.pdf

Here are some of the rules that have changed since 1999.


I can find nothing in the NHSC rulebook that says hats are mandatory in the English rail CH classes, nor is there anything in the new amended rules. Perhaps the person you spoke to at NHSC was thinking of the Equitation classes where a hat is mandatory.

Boy, for CW not being a big deal this year (as some of you say), some people sure are making a big issue out of what they say was nothing.

Dee

[Gnalli]

I have a question. This photo: http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25638.htm

Was this horse starting his canter, or was he being naughty? Don't flame me - this is a legit question. I can't tell. It looks a little like he's going up to rear, but I think the horse in front is cantering.

This: http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25676.htm
looks incredible. I've never been on any TWH, certainly not a BL horse, but it looks absolutely exhilarating.

I'll also add, for those who are convinced that all BL horses are horribly abused and in horrifying pain....look at the photos of them all in the lineup. They all look happy. Ears perked, relaxed expressions:
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25720.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25718.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25719.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25721.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25722.htm

And then. WOW.
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25725.htm
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/250_Class166/TWH07_166_25736.htm


WOW is right.:winkgrin: There is nothing like the feeling of the glide ride that you get from a good gaited horse, and a good padded horse makes you feel like you have wings. Its awesome.:cool::cool:

The horse in the first picture, I honestly don't know what the deal is with him. The one thing I don't like about BL horses is the canter, but then, I was raised that you don't canter them-my daddy tore my fanny out of the frame for that, so I am kinda prejudiced on that. :o

[cordial]

You are WRONG---they are breeding the foals to be "square". I won't bother to explain what "square" means because you find find a way for it be a a negative, instead of the Positive that it actually is!

Well, you guys will have to fight the battle without me. I'm packed up and leaving for a horse show with my baaaaaaaaaaaad TWH's. Good luck!

I'm out!

buckeyerev:D
I too, am leaving for a show, and taking by lite-shod horse, and my park pleasure horse. They are both happy to load up and show their "stuff"---- AND clean as a baby's butt!

[Gnalli]

The point I am trying to get at, is that if in fact wearing a top hat is a RULE, and it is being VIOLATED, and the competitor is still not being booted out, then what other less obvious violations are slipping under the table?!

Ignore them? They blatantly go out there in the ring, in front of the judge and break the rules, and everyone just IGNORES them? Why not call out their number, and DQ them out of the ring for breaking a rule?

I don't care about the hat, and I agree that it's so minor, it's laughable. But my whole point is that the industry's (judges, stewards, competitors), answer to someone breaking the rules is to just IGNORE IT. Let's not DQ them for breaking the rules. Let's just ignore it.

Nice. If they can't even monitor a tophat that's out there for God and everybody to see, how, for Pete's sake, do they propose to tell the public that they are monitoring what goes on beneath all those pads and shoes?

You know, they should have said something to the Jacksons about formal attire, but they didn't. The thing is, anytime something is said to them about them being wrong, the race card is brought up by them, and no one cares to open that can, so they let them go on and do their thing.

[cordial]

Maybe breeders are starting to go back towards square more recently, but I have seen too many pacey ones produced for the BL world to discount that they were being bred for it. I've also heard it from trainers that it's easier to square up a pacey horse with pads and chains to get the desired movement than it is to do the same to a square going horse. Certainly all the research I've done points towards that.
Yes they are going to studs that produce square-going colts. It is much more work for a trainer, but the old-pacy wasy of going is becoming a thing of the past. They have no choice!

[Gnalli]

You know, all this fighting is silly. Look at this picture and tell me this is not just precious. This little one looks so happy. I know its a lead line class, but hey, this picture is just pretty. And no, I don't know who they are.
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/086_Class59/TWH07_08321.htm

or this one or any in that class.
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/086_Class59/TWH07_08331.htm I love that pony

[sunridge1]

This sounds very good http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=10307

[cordial]

You know, they should have said something to the Jacksons about formal attire, but they didn't. The thing is, anytime something is said to them about them being wrong, the race card is brought up by them, and no one cares to open that can, so they let them go on and do their thing.

You are sooo right. If they would have excused CW for any infraction of the rules they would have played the Race Issue to the Max. They would be sueing the whole industry. The officals did the right thing. Even if she would have worn a formal suit (which by the way she should have had on), it still was a unnecesssary performance for all the wrong reasons.

[Dalfan]

Look at this picture and tell me this is not just precious. This little one looks so happy. I know its a lead line class, but hey, this picture is just pretty. And no, I don't know who they are.

Very precious. Pony is lovely, turnout is lovely, little one is very cute. A perfect picture...except for the frankenstein shoes. Why???:no:

[Amwrider]

This is listed under the equitation section.

**********
2.2 Appointments. Judges and exhibitors must be aware that riders are judged on
ability. However, the fit, neatness, and correctness of tack and attire is important to the
overall presentation. Exhibitors must choose a habit and accessories based on tradition
and present day customs as outlined below.
a. Attire and Personal Appointments.
1. Informal saddle seat type suits in conservative colors. Colors
include black, blue, grey, green, beige, or brown. Jacket with
matching jodhpurs, coordinating vest, four-in-hand tie, man’s style
shirt, gloves, homburgs, derbies, or snap brim hats, and jodhpur
boots. Underpasses are required.
2. Semi-formal: saddle seat tuxedo suit with one-button coat in dark
blue, brown, grey, or black, with collar and lapels of the same
color and matching jodhpurs with a vertical satin stripe of the same
color. Top hat, white formal tuxedo shirt, dark bow tie,
cummerbund or pique vest, gloves, jodphur boots and optional
dark boutonniere. The semi-formal suit is to beworn after 6:00 pm
only. Underpasses required.
3. Formal. Same as the Semi-formal suit, except worn with a top hat
and white accessories including white bow tie, cummerbund or
pique vest, gloves, and optional white boutonniere. The formal
suit is worn only after 6:00 pm. Underpasses required.
4. Whip and/or small roweled spurs are optional.
5. Long hair must be styled above the collar, and only small post
earrings should be worn.
****************

I am not that knowledgeable in walking horse show, but I have seen plenty of people showing without hats. My understanding (from other saddle seat breeds) is that informal is worn during the day and semi-formal and formal is worn at night. The "flat shod" horses in the ASB and Morgan circuits traditionally show informal all of the time. They are not allowed to wear formal unless in a class that is open to flat and padded horses.

If the walking horse attire customs are modeled after the ASB customs, then the Jackson's rider was OK to wear informal as she was on a flat shod. "OK" as in she was not breaking any rules. HOWEVER, to dress informally at a show of this magnitude shows a lack of respect for the event. If you are showing with the big boys, you need to dress the part.

Example: I work at a company that has casual attire in the workplace, however if I ever met a client wearing jeans, flip-flops and a t-shirt, I probably wouldn't have that client for long. It is a lack of respect and is also a way to not be taken seriously.

I also glanced through the rest of the rule changes. Someone mentioned that the horse did not place well showing against the flat shods at the show, but then he showed in the big class. There is a rule that states horses may only change divisions once per season and cannot change divisions during a show unless there was a change of ownership. I would think if they showed flat shod earlier at the Celebration and then showed in the big lick class, that would be a division change maybe? Or is the big class considered Open?

[twhrider13]

This is listed under the equitation section.

**********
2.2 Appointments. Judges and exhibitors must be aware that riders are judged on
ability. However, the fit, neatness, and correctness of tack and attire is important to the
overall presentation. Exhibitors must choose a habit and accessories based on tradition
and present day customs as outlined below.
a. Attire and Personal Appointments.
1. Informal saddle seat type suits in conservative colors. Colors
include black, blue, grey, green, beige, or brown. Jacket with
matching jodhpurs, coordinating vest, four-in-hand tie, man’s style
shirt, gloves, homburgs, derbies, or snap brim hats, and jodhpur
boots. Underpasses are required.
2. Semi-formal: saddle seat tuxedo suit with one-button coat in dark
blue, brown, grey, or black, with collar and lapels of the same
color and matching jodhpurs with a vertical satin stripe of the same
color. Top hat, white formal tuxedo shirt, dark bow tie,
cummerbund or pique vest, gloves, jodphur boots and optional
dark boutonniere. The semi-formal suit is to beworn after 6:00 pm
only. Underpasses required.
3. Formal. Same as the Semi-formal suit, except worn with a top hat
and white accessories including white bow tie, cummerbund or
pique vest, gloves, and optional white boutonniere. The formal
suit is worn only after 6:00 pm. Underpasses required.
4. Whip and/or small roweled spurs are optional.
5. Long hair must be styled above the collar, and only small post
earrings should be worn.
****************

I am not that knowledgeable in walking horse show, but I have seen plenty of people showing without hats. My understanding (from other saddle seat breeds) is that informal is worn during the day and semi-formal and formal is worn at night. The "flat shod" horses in the ASB and Morgan circuits traditionally show informal all of the time. They are not allowed to wear formal unless in a class that is open to flat and padded horses.

If the walking horse attire customs are modeled after the ASB customs, then the Jackson's rider was OK to wear informal as she was on a flat shod. "OK" as in she was not breaking any rules. HOWEVER, to dress informally at a show of this magnitude shows a lack of respect for the event. If you are showing with the big boys, you need to dress the part.

Example: I work at a company that has casual attire in the workplace, however if I ever met a client wearing jeans, flip-flops and a t-shirt, I probably wouldn't have that client for long. It is a lack of respect and is also a way to not be taken seriously.

I also glanced through the rest of the rule changes. Someone mentioned that the horse did not place well showing against the flat shods at the show, but then he showed in the big class. There is a rule that states horses may only change divisions once per season and cannot change divisions during a show unless there was a change of ownership. I would think if they showed flat shod earlier at the Celebration and then showed in the big lick class, that would be a division change maybe? Or is the big class considered Open?


Exactly. It's technically ok to wear informal clothing hatless, but a formal suit with a bow tie, a top hat, and gloves would've been better.

They showed the horse in the Open Stallions division at the Celebration. He didn't do well at the International in the flat-shod division. The International and the Celebration are run under two different HIOs (Horse Industry Organizations). The National Horse Show Commission sanctions the Celebration, and I believe the TWHBEA's HIO sanctions the International. So while they did change divisions, and it was a rather cheap maneuver, it wasn't actually *against* the rules, just against the *spirit* of the rules. Does that even come close to making sense?

[cordial]

Your message was well written---very savy for a young women of your age. Keep up the good work---we need good young people like yourself to keep this wonderful breed "alive and well". I feel that it getting more positive all the time.
Also the stats claim(no, I don't know the offical count)that TW horses are rising in popularity and beating out some of the other breeds!!!!

[dreamer2313]

Exactly. It's technically ok to wear informal clothing hatless, but a formal suit with a bow tie, a top hat, and gloves would've been better.

They showed the horse in the Open Stallions division at the Celebration. He didn't do well at the International in the flat-shod division. The International and the Celebration are run under two different HIOs (Horse Industry Organizations). The National Horse Show Commission sanctions the Celebration, and I believe the TWHBEA's HIO sanctions the International. So while they did change divisions, and it was a rather cheap maneuver, it wasn't actually *against* the rules, just against the *spirit* of the rules. Does that even come close to making sense?

The International is also a NHSC affiliated show. WHOA and TWHBEA are not the best of friends at the moment.

[twhrider13]

Your message was well written---very savy for a young women of your age. Keep up the good work---we need good young people like yourself to keep this wonderful breed "alive and well". I feel that it getting more positive all the time.
Also the stats claim(no, I don't know the offical count)that TW horses are rising in popularity and beating out some of the other breeds!!!!

Thank you, cordial. *Blush* The Celebration is the biggest horse show (spectator-wise) in the U.S. :yes:

[twhrider13]

The International is also a NHSC affiliated show. WHOA and TWHBEA are not the best of friends at the moment.

Duh, you're right. Brain fart. I was thinking of that pleasure show that the TWHBEA sponsors. Ever since they split the International into two shows, the pleasure show and the performance show, I've started getting the two of them confused. Dumb me. Thanks for the correction. :)

So, yes, in fact, they DID break the rules.

[OakesBrae]

So, please don't shoot me, but I've been trying to figure out where the pads came in, and it looks like the late 50s early 60s?

I was looking through that Walker's West site, and it was very hard to tell the transition, though horses from each 10 year increment seemed to have "different" feet (all the same within those increments, but each increment being different).

From what I am reading, Midnight Sun had a very extravagant way of going, and that was what influenced folks to want to start putting pads etc. on the horse (as well as soring, but I'm not really going there) to imitate him?

Have I got it at least mostly right? :)

[twhrider13]

So, please don't shoot me, but I've been trying to figure out where the pads came in, and it looks like the late 50s early 60s?

I was looking through that Walker's West site, and it was very hard to tell the transition, though horses from each 10 year increment seemed to have "different" feet (all the same within those increments, but each increment being different).

From what I am reading, Midnight Sun had a very extravagant way of going, and that was what influenced folks to want to start putting pads etc. on the horse (as well as soring, but I'm not really going there) to imitate him?

Have I got it at least mostly right? :)

It was in the '60s, I believe. And I think Talk of the Town was the horse everyone was trying to emulate, but you've got the general gist of it. :)

[Samrdr1]

Very precious. Pony is lovely, turnout is lovely, little one is very cute. A perfect picture...except for the frankenstein shoes. Why???:no:

Yep- I call them clown shoes-like the giant floppy shoes the clowns wear in the circus that causes them to take comically exaggerated steps

Same principle.

Tom N

[spookhorse]

The TWHBEA book isn't worth the paper it is printed on. No one abides by those rules only NHSC. tHE ONLY WAY twhbea rules apply is at their shows.

If the Celebration is the be all and end all of TWH showing, then it bears repeating that the rules set forth about what is considered the proper gait should be adherred to by them and all TWHs showing in TWHBEA sanctioned shows. The horses showing bad gaits should be dismissed from the ring... that includes every BL horse I've ever seen (which is more than you may think)

So then you wonder why people don't think the TWHBEA can police it's own members and the USDA has to step in...

[Auventera Two]

You know, they should have said something to the Jacksons about formal attire, but they didn't. The thing is, anytime something is said to them about them being wrong, the race card is brought up by them, and no one cares to open that can, so they let them go on and do their thing.

Then what about all the other people I linked to who weren't wearing top hats either? If its a big deal, and people are just "ignoring" the Jacksons because she didn't wear a hat, then what about everybody else not wearing a hat?

Again, I think the whole hat thing is silly, but I'm trying to figure out where you guys are coming from with this whole "ignore" bit.

[Auventera Two]

You are sooo right. If they would have excused CW for any infraction of the rules they would have played the Race Issue to the Max. They would be sueing the whole industry. The officals did the right thing. Even if she would have worn a formal suit (which by the way she should have had on), it still was a unnecesssary performance for all the wrong reasons.

And again - then what about all the other [white] men and women I linked who weren't in formal attire either? What was the excuse with not DQing them?

Keyword being - EXCUSE.

[Auventera Two]

Gnalli - as for the canter...you mentioned your father didn't allow you to canter the padded horses. Was this due to the danger of throwing a shoe, was it too hard for the horses, or was it both? I imagine a bit of both?

What is the purpose of cantering a padded horse in competition anyway? It's clearly exhausting because once the horses complete a canter, they're gasping for air, they can only maintain it for a short ways, it hyper-flexes the joints with the weight of the stacks, the riders have to lay down over their necks because the horses are literally rearing up into the air each stride, etc. It seems that people have trouble with the canter (aesthetically speaking) and so why don't they just drop the canter all together?

[Auventera Two]

You know, all this fighting is silly. Look at this picture and tell me this is not just precious. This little one looks so happy. I know its a lead line class, but hey, this picture is just pretty. And no, I don't know who they are.
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/086_Class59/TWH07_08321.htm

or this one or any in that class.
http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/TWHNC07_web/086_Class59/TWH07_08331.htm I love that pony

I don't care for those pictures. The reason I don't is the stacks on the horses.

I personally love the action and looks of Saddlebreds and Arabian Park horses. They are "up", light, high stepping, flashy, powerful, and exotic. All without all the excess baggage of chains and stacks. This is an example of true talent and athleticism, in my opinion. The riders sit up straight and proud, and horse and rider absolutely STRUT. The horse just looks flat CLASSY to me. No hint of the crawling spider look at all. I love TWHs, but I do wish we could get away from the padded horses.

Good photos here:
http://www.asha.net/

and here:
http://www.arabianhorses.org

[spina]

So, please don't shoot me, but I've been trying to figure out where the pads came in, and it looks like the late 50s early 60s?


It was actually the early 1950s. Exaggerated front leg action, especially at the running walk, was a crowd pleaser and also was rewarded by judges.

"While "lite shod" horses with naturally good movement could comfortably perform this crowd-pleasing gait at the time, it took both natural ability and considerable time to properly train and condition the horse. Thus began the rage for "big lick" movement."

Some individuals, wishing to produce similar movement in less-talented horses or in less time, borrowed practices used by other breeds to enhance movement. This included action devices such as weighted shoes, "Stacks" (stacked pads), and the use of weighted chains around the pasterns, all of which, within certain limits, were allowed.

As these methods produced horses that won in the show ring, and as ever-higher and more dramatic action was rewarded by the judges, some trainers turned to less savory methods to produce high action in a hurry. These methods including excessively heavy weighted chains, use of tacks deliberately placed under the shoe into the "white line" or quick, of the hoof, and the controversial practice of "soring," the application of a caustic chemical agent to the front legs to make it painful for the horse to put its feet down. - courtesy Wikkipedia

[OakesBrae]

I do worry about the hyperflexion of the joints associated with padded horses (for what it's worth, I also worry about it as bred into many WB breeds for "dressage movement" typified by the extreme "toe flick"). Have any studies been done into it's long term effects?

I'm not trying to stir the pot - honestly - just trying to understand.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Photo (http://media.heraldleader.com/static/pagepdfs/cr.pdf)

Nice pic - check out the stride behind. I don't know much about TWH's but that looks pretty impressive.

I personally don't care for the pads, but this horse seems very comfortable. I'd love to ride a horse that moves like that (without pads, though, thanks!).

[spina]

Exhibitors must choose a habit and accessories based on tradition and present day customs as outlined below:
a. Attire and Personal Appointments.

1. Informal saddle seat type suits...derbies, or snap brim hats

2. Semi-formal: saddle seat tuxedo suit with one-button coat ...Top hat

3. Formal. Same as the Semi-formal suit, except worn with a top hat...

****************



so just to add to this ridiculous discussion of who's not following the rules by wearing/not wearing the right hat:

according to encarta, a top hat is defined as:
a man's tall cylindrical hat with a flat top and a narrow brim. It is usually black, is often made of silk, and is worn as part of formal dress.

and a fedora is defined as:
a soft felt hat with a brim and a crease along the length of its crown

I have yet to see a TW rider in a top hat - the yahoos in the WC class at the Celebration who chose to wear hats were all in fedoras. Perhaps they should have been booed for flaunting their disregard for the rules? Or should we just feel sorry for them for being clueless?

[Gnalli]

Gnalli - as for the canter...you mentioned your father didn't allow you to canter the padded horses. Was this due to the danger of throwing a shoe, was it too hard for the horses, or was it both? I imagine a bit of both?

What is the purpose of cantering a padded horse in competition anyway? It's clearly exhausting because once the horses complete a canter, they're gasping for air, they can only maintain it for a short ways, it hyper-flexes the joints with the weight of the stacks, the riders have to lay down over their necks because the horses are literally rearing up into the air each stride, etc. It seems that people have trouble with the canter (aesthetically speaking) and so why don't they just drop the canter all together?


He didn't care if it was flat or padded-cantering one was out for him. He differed from a lot of folks in that. He believed that cantering one before it was hitting the(near) perfect lick could mess up the gaits, and confuse the horse. I don't subscribe to this theory totally, but I still don't canter Renegade under saddle, though he is set in his gaits. It could too have something to do with the fact that he caught me racing his good 3 yr flat (as in breaking level with a keg shoe) shod horse across the cow pasture and jumping a gully against the neighbor boy....:eek:



Oh, and Spina, calling someone a yahoo is just classless and tacky.

[sunridge1]

I do worry about the hyperflexion of the joints associated with padded horses (for what it's worth, I also worry about it as bred into many WB breeds for "dressage movement" typified by the extreme "toe flick"). Have any studies been done into it's long term effects?

I'm not trying to stir the pot - honestly - just trying to understand.

Go back to my Post 199 and click on the link. This is the only study I've heard about. Ever.
Mary

[CA ASB]

It was actually the early 1950s. Exaggerated front leg action, especially at the running walk, was a crowd pleaser and also was rewarded by judges.

...

Some individuals, wishing to produce similar movement in less-talented horses or in less time, borrowed practices used by other breeds to enhance movement. This included action devices such as weighted shoes, "Stacks" (stacked pads), and the use of weighted chains around the pasterns, all of which, within certain limits, were allowed.



Please tell me what other breed uses the stacked pads that you see in BL horses. It seems that everything that the TWH folks decided to use, they took to extremes.

[hackinaround]

CA ASB Please excuse me for not knowing but dont Saddlebreds in the 5 gaited classes , Morgans and Arabs frequently done built up shoes?

[Auventera Two]

CA ASB Please excuse me for not knowing but dont Saddlebreds in the 5 gaited classes , Morgans and Arabs frequently done built up shoes?


ASBs and Arabians both wear pads, but not to the extent that big lick horses do. I still don't like their feet, or packages either, but I don't think you can ask for the moon and stars both. :winkgrin: I think change has to happen gradually. I think I would be thrilled to see the big lick horses downgraded to the package size that Arabians and Saddelbreds go in.

[Nun Ya]

WHO FLUNG THE POO????? :lol:

This thread was started so we could comment on a great Celebration. Of course our usual spectators on COTH could be counted on to bring in their who blah and turn this into yet another classy thread of the same ol same ol. Kinda like the Hatfields and McCoys don't ya think?

[Nun Ya]

ASBs and Arabians both wear pads, but not to the extent that big lick horses do. I still don't like their feet, or packages either, but I don't think you can ask for the moon and stars both. :winkgrin: I think change has to happen gradually. I think I would be thrilled to see the big lick horses downgraded to the package size that Arabians and Saddelbreds go in.

Who cares what you do or don't like? It isn't up to you. And just because you don't like something don't meanit is wrong or painful or whatever you call it. Are you not the least bit happy for the good reports from the USDA about the soring issue?

[Auventera Two]

Nunya - I don't see anyone "flinging poo" here. Everyone else is just discussing, as we are allowed to do here. As with every coversation, they take turns, and a bulletin board is certainly no exception.

And yes, I am happy that the Celebration went well this year. I will also say that I am cautiously optimistic. Every step in the right direction should be commended, certainly, but many of us would like to see even bigger strides towards cleanup. The industry has had over 30 years and for some people, the amount of change and cleanup is not ideal.

[hitchinmygetalong]

WHO FLUNG THE POO????? :lol:

This thread was started so we could comment on a great Celebration. Of course our usual spectators on COTH could be counted on to bring in their who blah and turn this into yet another classy thread of the same ol same ol. Kinda like the Hatfields and McCoys don't ya think?

Hey, I've changed my tone and decided to step out of the fight and instead concentrate my energy on looking for positives. See post #218 on the previous page with the link to the photo!

The pro's and the con's can fight until the cows come home, both sides have valid points. I've decided to shut my yap until I meet some of the TW folk in real life and actually see with my own eyes what is going on. You can find all kinds of incriminating stuff on the Internet, what you don't know is what percentage of the general target populace it reflects. And I truly believe that just about any breed and every discipline (at least here in the US of A) has its dirty little secrets.

I've had a couple of offers from COTHers in my area to come ride their TWH and if I ever find time I'm taking them up on it.

p.s. Morgans sadly are sliding back to the bad old days of very long feet/pads/weighted shoes. They were outlawed in the 60's but the rules get looser and looser every year it seems. Oh well. :no:

[sublimequine]

Who cares what you do or don't like? It isn't up to you. And just because you don't like something don't meanit is wrong or painful or whatever you call it. Are you not the least bit happy for the good reports from the USDA about the soring issue?

Wow, isn't that a bit hypocritical? Talkin about flingin poo, when you're being quite nasty yourself. Auventura was just saying his personal opinion on the subject, it doesn't matter if YOU like his opinion or not. :lol:

I think I agree with Auventura on this one, too. ASBs, Morgans, and Arabs are kind of like the toned down versions of the TWHs. There's a Saddleseat ASB at my barn, who is ridden in a western saddle, keg shoes, and a snaffle bridle. He's got eye-popping action, the way his hocks pump off the ground with each stride is amazing, and the reach he gets with his front legs is impressive to say the least.

When I see him flying around the arena like that, it makes me think, I'd sure like to see any of those big lick horses look that nice. Take off all the stuff they wear, the huge pads, double bridle, action chains, weighted bell boots.. and let's see that NATURAL talent. ;)

DOn't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of TWHs. But I think the emphasis needs to go back to horses with natural ability and action that is BRED into them, not applied through lots of doodads. :D

[OakesBrae]

Go back to my Post 199 and click on the link. This is the only study I've heard about. Ever.
Mary

That doesn't seem to be as comprehensive as I'd like (but thanks for letting me know about it - I missed it when I read through this lovely long thread).

Folks that own padded horses - can you help me understand what you feel the effects of the hyperextension of the fetlock/pastern to be?

Again, I'm just trying to understand :)

[Rusty Stirrup]

My two cents. It seems that when big $$ and "professionals" get involved everything gets distorted regardless of the disicipline. Rollkur, stacks (pads), tail cutting, peppering, etc. The natural beauty is lost. I know certain posters don't care for others' opinions but I can't see any beauty in any artificial "way of going" no matter what "style" is getting pinned. Horses aren't Poodles. Carry on.

[Auventera Two]

I agree with you Rusty Stirrup. And I do respect the opinions of others, and can appreciate where they're coming from. I was born and raised in TN and big lick horses are just a way of life - a culture, if you will. Just like buttermilk biscuits and church on Sunday. The other day my husband was on a forum that he reads and he told me to take a look. Some guy from TN had posted pictures of him and his horse "taking a spin." Before I got to the computer, I knew it would be a big lick horse. Sure enough, it was. The horse had disfigured front legs (scars and very curly hair), and chains obviously heavier than 6 ounces. The horse was just a baby too, and was out there just crankin' it, in full form.

I now live in the North, where this type of horse and riding is not prevalent, or accepted like it is in the South. Different demographics, different culture. I'm not saying either is better than the other - it's just different.

But I have always maintained the position that I think big lick goes beyond asthetics, and dips into humanity, even in the absence of soring. There are various reasons why I hold this position.

[sunridge1]

Folks that own padded horses - can you help me understand what you feel the effects of the hyperextension of the fetlock/pastern to be?


While I'm no expert what I've seen is the effects on the hind fetlocks. If you study the pictures or video most of the strain is on the hinds. Plus there is a twisting motion once the foot is on the ground. Tremendous amount of force on those joints. The only 2 retired BL horses I've known suffered from DSLS to the point of becoming totally crippled.
Mary

[Nun Ya]

Hey, I've changed my tone and decided to step out of the fight and instead concentrate my energy on looking for positives. See post #218 on the previous page with the link to the photo!

The pro's and the con's can fight until the cows come home, both sides have valid points. I've decided to shut my yap until I meet some of the TW folk in real life and actually see with my own eyes what is going on. You can find all kinds of incriminating stuff on the Internet, what you don't know is what percentage of the general target populace it reflects. And I truly believe that just about any breed and every discipline (at least here in the US of A) has its dirty little secrets.

I've had a couple of offers from COTHers in my area to come ride their TWH and if I ever find time I'm taking them up on it.

p.s. Morgans sadly are sliding back to the bad old days of very long feet/pads/weighted shoes. They were outlawed in the 60's but the rules get looser and looser every year it seems. Oh well. :no:

Hey if your ever in Georgia come by our farm. We have a walking horse shod just about every way. We have a few padded, park pleasure, lite shod, halter colts, and our new park performance horse. You can ride any you choose and can inspect any of their feet at any time day or night. :yes: We would love to have anybody come by and take a test drive ;)

[Nun Ya]

Wow, isn't that a bit hypocritical? Talkin about flingin poo, when you're being quite nasty yourself. Auventura was just saying his personal opinion on the subject, it doesn't matter if YOU like his opinion or not. :lol:

Hypocritical???? I do not think HER opinion on the issue of BL horses has any value. She just talks about how awful it is and NEVER has any thing positive to add. Go back an d read the thread she started a year ago and you will re read the same things being posted now.


I think I agree with Auventura on this one, too. ASBs, Morgans, and Arabs are kind of like the toned down versions of the TWHs. There's a Saddleseat ASB at my barn, who is ridden in a western saddle, keg shoes, and a snaffle bridle. He's got eye-popping action, the way his hocks pump off the ground with each stride is amazing, and the reach he gets with his front legs is impressive to say the least.

No not really. But they are both shown saddleseat style, but the gaits are no where near the same or even close.


When I see him flying around the arena like that, it makes me think, I'd sure like to see any of those big lick horses look that nice. Take off all the stuff they wear, the huge pads, double bridle, action chains, weighted bell boots.. and let's see that NATURAL talent. ;)


We do not show in double bridles and I do not think anyone shows or even uses weighted bell boots anymore ( except the Jacksons)

[Nun Ya]

I agree with you Rusty Stirrup. And I do respect the opinions of others, and can appreciate where they're coming from. I was born and raised in TN and big lick horses are just a way of life - a culture, if you will. Just like buttermilk biscuits and church on Sunday. The other day my husband was on a forum that he reads and he told me to take a look. Some guy from TN had posted pictures of him and his horse "taking a spin." Before I got to the computer, I knew it would be a big lick horse. Sure enough, it was. The horse had disfigured front legs (scars and very curly hair), and chains obviously heavier than 6 ounces. The horse was just a baby too, and was out there just crankin' it, in full form.

I now live in the North, where this type of horse and riding is not prevalent, or accepted like it is in the South. Different demographics, different culture. I'm not saying either is better than the other - it's just different.

But I have always maintained the position that I think big lick goes beyond asthetics, and dips into humanity, even in the absence of soring. There are various reasons why I hold this position.

Ok giving you the benefit of the doubt, can you please tell us the reasons you are so against the padded horses and what conclusive ( meaning researched and proven by a qualified person/persons) to help you reach this determination that it is harmful to the walking horse to wear pads. You will answer that the study has never been done but there have been studys and there looks like there will be another, but even then there will be people who just cannot take no, this has no harmful effects, as an answer.

[asb2517]

Nun Ya~why are you wasting your energy trying to argue with these people? (other than it's kind of amusing ;)) There is no way in hell that you or I or anyone can convince someone that pads are not the work of the Devil.

[ChocoMare]

The BL look is not to my taste. That's just me.

However, the thing I think most of us don't care for isn't the "pads" in and of themselves. It's what has to be done to the hoof to make the pads work.

Trimming a hoof so that the toe is a very long, there is no heel (or what heel there is, is severly underrun/crushed) is debilitating to any horse regardless of breed. No farrier/trimmer, who is worth their salt and/or who has been trained properly, trims a hoof that way. Hooves were not meant to look like that. If you'll notice the blinking AirShod ad to the right, the hoof that is shown (shod/padded) is a properly trimmed hoof. The pastern angle is correct, with proper caudal support for the bony column and heel.

The same farrier/trimmer could probably quote chapter and verse what this type of trimming can and will do, over the long term, to the hoof as a whole and the internal bony structures. Not to mention the hocks, stifles and hips.

I will also now interject the different shoeing/trimming done in the Draft Horse Performance world: Scotchbottom shoes. In this case, the draft horse hoof is permitted to flare to gargantuan & unnatural porportions, whereupon the toe is cut almost straight and those humongo shoes nailed on. (Click here: http://pets.webshots.com/photo/2578125980015305252wOhBGt to see an example)

I quote below from an article by Alma DeMille, Certified Farrier & Blacksmith-(bold text is my emphasis added):

In the Draft Horse Show Circuit animals are being shod with scotch bottom shoes. Rear shoes are designed to turn the toes outward excessively and pull the hocks together. Front shoes are totally square to make the horse breakover earlier. They are also being shod with thick pads and often too severe angles in order to give a lot of action to their step. While a competitor in this show circuit must follow the fad in order to have a chance at all of winning, recognition must be given to the unnatural stress being placed on the horses' joints, tendons and ligaments. With proper care, and wise training, these magnificent and inspiring animals can be shod in this way with no negative consequences. The real problem arises when people jump on the band wagon wanting their draft horses to perform like the show animals, yet they lack the understanding of what will happen when they take off, up the highway, with these fancy show preparations that are designed to be used in soft dirt. Numerous horses are "road foundered" each year due to this type of activity. When those hooves hit the concrete, pounding down mile after mile, the coffin bone rotates as the sensitive laminae is literally torn away from the outer hoof wall. Many of these animals never recover, and must be put down. They should have been shod with a flat shoe, which would have allowed them to travel with a straight flight pattern, reducing stress to all joints and tissues. The flat shoe also would have allowed the frog to touch the ground as it was designed to do, rather than being suspended way up in the air while such a tremendous weight was bearing down hopelessly seeking support.

************************************

I believe we can apply the same proper hoof trimming and/or shoeing principals to any horse, gaited or not. When we alter the way the equine body was designed to function in any way, but especially in relation to their hooves, we alter the whole body and it's naturally designed way of going.

All of it comes down to two things: Pride and Ego. When we place pride and ego above the best interest of the horse, all for a ribbon, trophy or check, to the point where it becomes an excessive and grotesque counterfeit of the original, we do damage.

It applies to all disciplines and, in many cases, no discipline at all. A fellow boarder has a 2 y/o AQHA/APHA gelding. He is currently shod in front by a farrier who I wouldn't let near my horses with a 100 foot pole. He's allowed the toe to grow too long and the heels are now underrun. Consequently, the horse who should have proper corrective shoeing for a congentical defect (he paddles), doesn't have what's needed and paddles worse because his breakover is to long.

Sorry for the novelette...I've been munching on this one for a few days. Just wanted to post it without emotion. It is not directed at any one, any discipline or any breed.

[Auventera Two]

Ok giving you the benefit of the doubt, can you please tell us the reasons you are so against the padded horses and what conclusive ( meaning researched and proven by a qualified person/persons) to help you reach this determination that it is harmful to the walking horse to wear pads. You will answer that the study has never been done but there have been studys and there looks like there will be another, but even then there will be people who just cannot take no, this has no harmful effects, as an answer.

The long footed, underrun conformation of big lick horses is detrimental to proper hoof function and growth. I am almost done with my Equine Podiatry Certification (will graduate in October) and I have learned a whole lot over the last year about anatomy and function of the equine digit. Severely underrun and crushed heels focus pressure on the palmar processes of PIII and remove the appropriate and desired stimulus from the back of the foot and soft tissue where it belongs. This is extremely clear in looking at cadaever disections. You can easily see where the pressure is located inside the foot of a long toe/low heel horse, and how it negatively affects bone growth. The bone will demineralize according to the increased pressure, and the foot loses its natural and healthy shape.

A long toe and underrun heel also puts more strain on the DDFT and interrupts ALL of the 5 flight phases of the stride. The horse's proprioception can be distorted as the nerves at the rear 2/3rds of the foot may not receive clear and accurate signals.

Also - I don't know many horse people who would support the amount of twisting and hyperflexion the hocks and rear pasterns of big lick horses endure. Yes, this is seen in other breeds/disciplines like Grand Prix jumpers, but the difference is in the frequency the soft tissue and joints are made to hyperflex. At least a jumper is out there once a week, but a padded horse lives with it 24 hours a day.

The normal payload of the forequarters of the horse is about 60% versus 40% on the rear. Stacking up the front of the horse transfers weight unnaturally to the rear quarters, asking the horse to carry more than 60% on the rear, and 40% or less, on the front. Exactly opposite of what is natural for the horse in it's natural, resting state. Yes, dressage horses do this too, but again, it is ONLY while being ridden, at least. A padded horse lives with the unnatural weight distribution 24 hours per day, for years at a time.

That reminds me of the video posted last year of a big lick horse whose hindquarters collapsed in a class, he went down, and his rider just jerked the reins to get him back up. She hopped back on and went on truckin' down the rail, even though the horse's hindquarters were shaking like jello. A paruse around that photographer's eproof site will show many many examples of hindquarters stressed to the breaking point. Hindquarters asked to travel in a constant state of "levade."

I won't even go into energy storage and utilization of the foot because that is pretty specific to applied equine podiatry and goes against the traditional farrier methods, somewhat.

Then of course there's the issue of chains, callouses, Koppertox, salycilic acid, wrapping/sweating, blinders, doing all of this to 2 yr olds, 10" shanked walking horse bits, the "scar rule" which is a complete joke, and so forth...

So yes, there are MANY other reasons than "I just don't like it."

[Auventera Two]

...excessive and grotesque counterfeit of the original,...

I think those words sum this whole thing up. Excessive, and grotesque. It's like what the AQHA people did to WP horses. They slowed them down so much and got that head so low, and the conformation so horrible, that the horse can't even get out of his own way. It was excessive and grotesque. Thankfully it's going back the other way, times have changed, and that fad is fading away.

[asb_own_me]

Hey if your ever in Georgia come by our farm. We have a walking horse shod just about every way. We have a few padded, park pleasure, lite shod, halter colts, and our new park performance horse. You can ride any you choose and can inspect any of their feet at any time day or night. :yes: We would love to have anybody come by and take a test drive ;)

I would love to! Now I'm trying to figure out when the heck I'm going to be in GA :D Those gaits look amazing. I've never been on any TWH, BL or flat shod.

[ChocoMare]

A wise person once said: "Everything in moderation." When we permit things to go to the extreme is when we open a whole Pandora's Box of issues.

Picture this about 40 years ago: A Percheron team is assembled. Each horse is born, is allowed to grow up and finish training. In the show ring, under harness, due to excellent training, that team exhibits a Big, Flashy Knee Action that lights up the crowd. Everyone in the crowd goes nuts and the team wins the trophy and check. The grape vine starts in: "Wonder how they got such high knee action? Did you see the flash? Wow, how can we get our teams to do that?" - So they head home to their own teams and start inventing shortcuts to accomplish and "counterfeit" what they saw. Move forward 20 - 30 - 60 years ago and you have today's teams that are nailed into Scotch Bottom shoes, hit with cocktail right before going in the ring.

The same is applied to the TWH. Midnight Sun exhibits a Big Lick movement....sans pads/stacks/chains whatever. The crowd goes nuts and every trainer is there licking their chops over what they've seen and have started to plan on how to get the same movement out of the horses in their charge. Instead of breeding and training for it, they want to bypass all that for next year's shows. The drive of their ego and pride then slides into the seduction of shortcuts. It evolves into what we see today.

[Auventera Two]

Good point CM. It's like some people just cannot supress their OCD tendencies. My little Arabian mare shows incredible potential and I've been extremely careful to not push her, and to baby her in every sense of the word, so that I have a fantastically talented and accomplished horse who will be with me for 30 years. I've raised her from a baby, and I could never imagine taking shortcuts on her training. The thought of it turns my heart inside out. Instead I ride her very slowly in 25 mile LDs, limit our conditioning miles, and have basically re-done my entire farm to eliminate any possible trap where she could get injured. She's 4 1/2 now, has never had more than a little scratch, and is mentally and physically fit.

To entertain the idea of using any kind of gadget, chemical, or "questionable" training method, even for a moment, would be a morale death sentence.

You can see her in my profile. It would be the sin of sins to defile such beauty, elegance, and athleticism with shortcuts, gadgets, and questionable methods. Scars caused from chains, and gunky green Koppertox hair would make me sick.

[Nun Ya]

Nun Ya~why are you wasting your energy trying to argue with these people? (other than it's kind of amusing ;)) There is no way in hell that you or I or anyone can convince someone that pads are not the work of the Devil.


I know. I need to just shut up.

[Nun Ya]

I would love to! Now I'm trying to figure out when the heck I'm going to be in GA :D Those gaits look amazing. I've never been on any TWH, BL or flat shod.


Oh you would love them both. My Park mare goes like a padded horse you don't really feel that much difference between the two but my Park performance horse is to die for!!!!!!!!!! I have so much fun riding him that I hate to get off after his workouts. He is the BEST!!!!!
He is a big guy to he stands 17.3 with only 1 in build up! Big as a barrel. You must come ride! :yes:

[Tazzie]

I don't have a problem with the breed--I have a problem with what people do to them. There is lots of evidence of this practice--why say I don't know what I am talking about?

Read this, if you are not too scared or embarassed:

https://www.twhbea.com/voice/News/USDAToIndustry.htm

Or how about this official USDA publication:

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/publications/animal_welfare/content/printable_version/Horse_Protection_6-3-5.pdf

Or this handout from a Listening Session conducted by Dr. Todd Behre of the USDA--careful--this one has some very graphic photos:

http://www.pinerockfarm.com/hppls.pdf

Here's more:

http://valleyviewwalkers.com/page9.html

I suppose you will claim that the above sources "don't know what they are talking about" either? Come on--you know what is done to these horses is wrong.

It is disgusting, vile, cruel, and exploitive. How anyone can get pleasure from torturing animals is beyond my comprehension.


Rebecca - I just wanted to say thank you for the links. I am not adding my opinion here, but thanking you for the education I received through these links, especially the one from Dr Behre.

[CA ASB]

CA ASB Please excuse me for not knowing but dont Saddlebreds in the 5 gaited classes , Morgans and Arabs frequently done built up shoes?

Big difference between a 1/4" or maybe 1/2" pad put on to ease concussion and a 4" stack of pads ...

That said, the longer feet in the ASB world belong to the 3-gaited horses. Open 5-gaited horses have much shorter feet. And remember, these horses have to trot in addition to gaiting - so shoeing needs have to be balanced between the need for both a diagonal and a lateral gait.

And, there's a saying ... "the best go light."

[Auventera Two]

Oh you would love them both. My Park mare goes like a padded horse you don't really feel that much difference between the two but my Park performance horse is to die for!!!!!!!!!!

If your Park mare goes like a padded horse, then wouldn't you say it's because of good breeding, training, conformation, willingness, attitude, etc.? Wouldn't it make sense to try to breed and train for this type of horse without having to use the pads?

I guess what I'm getting at is that if you have a lite shod mare capable of moving big without the pads, then why not breed or buy more horses of the same caliber instead of having to pad them up to get the same movement?

[Auventera Two]

http://www.avalonequinephotos.com/12_WHFC/55_Class_55/index.htm

[Nun Ya]

If your Park mare goes like a padded horse, then wouldn't you say it's because of good breeding, training, conformation, willingness, attitude, etc.? Wouldn't it make sense to try to breed and train for this type of horse without having to use the pads?

I guess what I'm getting at is that if you have a lite shod mare capable of moving big without the pads, then why not breed or buy more horses of the same caliber instead of having to pad them up to get the same movement?

AT...... are you asking me this question or the industry itself? Some people like park horses some like padded. If I had to guess, I would say over half of the horses that are padded could do a very similar gait w/ as much action as my mare but....................... the owners perfer to have their horses padded and that is their right. I have a padded gelding that was a very good park horse but I like him better padded. It is a personal preference I guess. :yes: