Landowner question

[Acertainsmile]

We have a large farm that our local hunt rides over... for the past several years I have gone out on opening hunt, but due to time constraints I dont get more than that. This year I do have the time, and right now the horse, but he belongs to a friend and is for sale...the rest of my horses are to green to go out this year.

I have been out a few times walking the hounds, and am being questioned my the Joint Master about joining... I guess this is an etiquette question, but is it polilte or required to join as a landowner,even if I dont get out much?

[Jaegermonster]

Do they have a hilltopping field you could take your greenies out with? We have several landowners that are members of our hunt, but they hunt regularly and are very active.
I don't think it's "required" to join, you could probably just cap if you only hunted a few times, but I know at our hunt we love to have the landowners out with us while we enjoy their lovely property.

[Acertainsmile]

Thanks for the reply... I just dont want to appear presumptuous, by not joining if I'm not hunting regulary.. and they do have a slow field, but my horses wont be ready untill next year... I have two wonderful TB's off the track, but they have been slow coming around. I'll give them time, I made both a promise that I would, to give them every oppurtunity to be good boys.

[Jaegermonster]

Ah I see. I have a young horse too, homebred TB coming 5 that i started hunting last season. I don't think it's "required" for you to be a member, but I think maybe the MFH just wants to make sure you know that you would be welcome if you did wish to join. We have lots of members that come out very infrequently, though it is expensive to join if you don't come out. I don't think you should worry about it, just cap when you can for now and join when your horses are ready.

[Acertainsmile]

thanks for making me feel better... I do love hunting, and hopefully I will have two nice hunt horses for next season... and yes, both MFH have said they would be happy to sponser me, maybe next year I'll go for it... happy hunting in the meantime!

[Jaegermonster]

There you go! you can still go out and tally ho and hang out in the kennels, then you be that much ahead when you finally get to hunt

[Acertainsmile]

There you go! you can still go out and tally ho and hang out in the kennels, then you be that much ahead when you finally get to hunt


I am planning to hunt often this season, as long as I have this current horse... I'm not really looking forward to letting him go at this point, but he is not mine to keep... (my hunt horse was hurt last season, so it was cut really short).

[Beverley]

In my experience, landowners typically hunt for free, whenever they wish, in exchange for the wonderful privilege of being able to cross their land. I know plenty of landowners who also join their local hunt because they want to, but the Masters of your hunt are committing a huge faux pas if they are pressuring you to join, or even charging you a cap fee!

[Jaegermonster]

You know I actually thought the same thing, but I am not privy to those arrangements within our hunt, and did not want to speak out of turn about another hunt. But a free membership seems a small price to pay for a landowner.

[armandh]

hunting costs a lot, I know, I'm the club treasurer.
if you can join do so. if your financial situation makes the decision hard, explain...
you don't OWN a made horse and this one is for sale by its owner.
you would like to join when you own a horse that you can hunt often.
ask what is their policy regarding landowners riding in the hunt.
is it a private pack or a subscription pack?
they may not have a well articulated policy.
these sort of issues often force a well defined [written] policy to be developed.
I add
as to colors, only the masters know for sure but some of the following will help
1] being of service to the hunt above and beyond the call of duty [outside of hounds and hunting.]
2] well turned out and giving willing assistance as asked during the hunt. gate?
3] knowing the territory well enough to assist those who don't if they must drop out early.
4] helping with the walking out etc.
also more than a few hunts/yr is good too.
it is more than just paying your dues [although promptness there helps too.]

[Acertainsmile]

I'm not really worried about the membership fee to join, but also dont want to "waste" money if I'm not going to hunt often... I dont get charged a cap fee, or at least I havent been in the past, but do feel a little pressure to join from one of our MFH... I'm not sure if I will be invited to Cub or not, since that is reserved for members or pending members... which at this time I'm neither...On another note, there is a man that owns a large farm across the road from us, he hunts very infrequently, but does host opening hunt and the breakfast... he has been given colors... thought that was a bit odd... but maybe not. (Wears a Scarlett coat when he does hunt, when he does he just hilltops, he is a beginner at best). Maybe he is an honorary somebody?

[Jaegermonster]

Wellllll....depending on the size of the hunt, hosting Opening Meet could be a sizable undertaking which should be recognized, esp if he has been doing it for a number of years. And he is a landowner, which you are familiar with as well.
You also don't say how long he has been doing this, or if he is active in the kennels, etc. Landowner relations are probably one of the most important aspects of hunt managements. No land, no hunt.

And I like the choice of your words "he has been given colors". I note you didn't say that "he has earned his colors". In my observation, I have found that both seem to occur, for any variety of reasons, and that the awarding of colors is usually at the discretion of the Masters. I have also found that in some cases there seem to be no obvious reason why some people are wearing colors, and sometimes exceptions are made to the "requirements" for earning colors, which I guess makes it "being given" colors. Sometimes people buy their colors, as opposed to earning them. Sometimes people get their colors sooner, depending on if they are related to other influential people in the hunting world. Like I said, it's up to the Masters.

Personally, I am glad that i worked hard and earned mine, they actually mean something to me, as opposed to those who got theirs their first season or right off the bat without really paying their dues, so to speak, and demonstrating their knowlege.
But really, a landowner is a whole different animal, and probably a question better left unasked.

[xeroxchick]

In my experience, landowners typically hunt for free, whenever they wish, in exchange for the wonderful privilege of being able to cross their land. I know plenty of landowners who also join their local hunt because they want to, but the Masters of your hunt are committing a huge faux pas if they are pressuring you to join, or even charging you a cap fee!

This is what I thought as well.

[wateryglen]

In our area; more & more landowners are small landowners. And more often; local hunts will not let you hunt "for free" unless you meet their criteria. For example; some hunts have a minimum acreage owned to determine it. 150 acres, 50 acress etc. Some are using whether you are a farmer, true farmer to determine it. For example; you must make over 75% of your income from farming to hunt for free. All local hunts treat all landowners well with lotsa invitations to join, social memberships & invites, hospitality. Many will forego initiation fees for a smaller landowner to join or give you a family membership for a single membership paid. Some hunts will allow free hunting to those landowners whose land is regularly crossed/hunted. Many of us smaller landowners have our land crossed maybe just a few times a season or maybe just the fox/hounds cross but rarely riders. Things like that.

I'm in the smaller landowner category but am treated like I own 1000 acres of their best hunting territory! That's simply wonderful!! And I can hunt without paying a cap fee when they hunt locally or "my" territory/area. But I must pay a cap to hunt w/them in other areas and I'm totally comfortable with this. In fact; I try to always pay a few caps yearly to support my local hunt. And I try to always help trail clearing, fox/coyote reporting and landowner relations because I too have the privelege of riding on that land & those wonderful gates & trails. It's the least I could do for the honor. It's a big thank you to my neighbors too of course!!

In our area, hunts would go broke and have even bigger fields if they let ALL their landowners hunt for free. It's a realistic practice as above and I support it heartily. I see it as win-win!!

[KateDB]

I find that typically a landowner may hunt for free at fixtures that encompass their land.
Does your hunt have a limited membership?
Something that is a reduce subscription and a limited number of hunts a year?

[Jennifer Alcott]

...On another note, there is a man that owns a large farm across the road from us, he hunts very infrequently, but does host opening hunt and the breakfast... he has been given colors... thought that was a bit odd... but maybe not. (Wears a Scarlett coat when he does hunt, when he does he just hilltops, he is a beginner at best). Maybe he is an honorary somebody?

And Jaegermonster wrote: "And I like the choice of your words "he has been given colors". I note you didn't say that "he has earned his colors". In my observation, I have found that both seem to occur, for any variety of reasons, and that the awarding of colors is usually at the discretion of the Masters. I have also found that in some cases there seem to be no obvious reason why some people are wearing colors, and sometimes exceptions are made to the "requirements" for earning colors, which I guess makes it "being given" colors. Sometimes people buy their colors, as opposed to earning them. Sometimes people get their colors sooner, depending on if they are related to other influential people in the hunting world."

Based on acertainsmile's location and other information she mentioned, I *think* I know the person to whom she is referring.

IF I am correct, then any snarky remarks about this person "being given" their colors are totally and completely unjustified. Unless, of course, the following actions do not constitute "EARNING" one's colors:
*ensuring that hundreds (maybe more) of acres remain open for hunting in the very region where foxhunting was FIRST enjoyed on this continent in 1650;
*instituting wildlife habitat management practices over hundreds of acres that contribute to a healthy fox population;
*hosting NUMEROUS events including joint meets, hunt balls, and more;
*working diligently, and at no insignificant cost, to restore not just a gorgeous and historically significant house but an entire ESTATE;
*hosting the hunt kennels and facilitating improvements;
*and I'm sure there's more that this person has done for the hunt, but I think that's a good start.

There's more I could say about this person, but it's really not my business.

Personally, if I were a member or adjoining landowner in this hunt, I wouldn't give a rat's patootie about his riding ability. What sort of snotty person looks down on someone who has accomplished all of the above just because they're not the world's best rider? GEE...do ya THINK that MAYBE this person was too busy with the above activities to take time for riding lessons every day?

acertainsmile, I highly recommend that you take the time to get to know your neighbor. From what I know of him, he is a good guy. If you spend any time whatsoever with the members of the hunt, you will quickly learn how much good he has done; and I guarantee that you will feel extremely foolish for suggested that he "was given" his colors.

If I am NOT correct about the hunt and the person to whom acertainsmile is referring, then I apologize for my both my incorrect assumption and my rant!!

[J Swan]

Jennifer -

I need to go hunting with your hunt! I have been firmly reminded many times that I will never be eligible for colors - consigned to the back of the field watching horses asses (and other horse's asses) for my entire hunting career.

The view never changes. :( Good thing I keep a full flask and have a steady supply of dirty jokes to keep myself entertained. I was even asked to move my rig once - guess I was too close to the beautiful people! :lol:

[Acertainsmile]

Jennifer, if we are talking about the same person..I was not looking down on said person...just curious... I do know said person, and do think he is a nice person. If you re read my post I'm sure you will realize that I meant no ill will.

[Jaegermonster]

Ok Jennifer, (as if I owe you an explanation) I do not know acertainsmile, you or anyone else on this thread or being referred to in this thread, nor do I know what hunt we are discussing, which is why I have kept most of my comments fairly general.
I am merely speaking from my personal observations of hunting and hunts from the various experiences I have had and things that I have observed during my years of hunting.
You shouldn't jump to conclusions, it's a long fall off that high horse named ASSume.

[Jennifer Alcott]

acertainsmile, if you know said person, then it should be obvious to you how he earned his colors. You say that you meant no ill will, but you said that you thought it was odd that he had his colors. I guess I just don't understand why or how that even pertains to your membership in the hunt, which was the initial topic of discussion, or why the color coat that he wears even matters?

Really, I'm not trying to be a B$%^H, I just don't understand why anyone would even appear to be questioning the awarding of colors to a neighbor in public. "It's just not done!" :) Particularly since the horse world is small, the foxhunting world is even smaller, and if someone (me, in this instance) who is NOT a member of the hunt in question can most likely ascertain enough information to know who you're talking about, there's a really good chance that someone from the hunt you're referring to is reading this and "connecting the dots".

I wonder how this gentleman would feel if he knew that his neighbor was discussing his lack of riding ability, his lack of attendance at hunts, and stating that they thought it was a bit odd that he had his colors in a public forum?

Jaeger, my remarks were not intended specifically for you. I know that you were speaking in generalities, but those generalities do not apply to the person in question (again, ASSuming that I am correct in my guess).

Quite frankly, I find public discussion of colors, who deserves them and who doesn't, how they're earned (or how they're "given") to be a bit crass. And trust me, my "Crass-O-Meter" is rather jaded, as those who know me can testify. :)

Who cares about colors? Just ride, hunt, and have fun. Life is too short to waste time worrying about the color of one's collar or coat.

J Swan, I think you need to find a new hunt...you have a TON of options in Virginia!

[Jaegermonster]

Thanks Jennifer. I took your earlier post as directed specifically at me, and as I said, I was only trying to answer ACS questions in a general manner.
I know when I was new to hunting I had a lot of questions about hunting, colors etc, and colors are important to some people. And I noticed some deviation from what was stated in the official information and what actually happens (kind of like real life huh? Money talks, and it's all about politics LOL).
But anyway, everybody go ride your horses and have fun.

[Acertainsmile]

Jennifer, first of all please exuse my apparant ignorance when it come to wording things in an appropriate fashion when dealing with things such as "earned" and "given"... I havent hunted much as an adult, but did hunt frequently as a jr. rider.

My question concerning membership is valid, and where better to come than a forum full of people that foxhunt...The reason that I asked in the first place was because I had felt a little pressure to join. I was always under the impression that land owners hunted for free. (We do own a large farm). This is where I was confused.

As far as the person we think we are discussing, I dont believe I ever said anything about his "lack" of skills, just stated obvious facts, that I'm sure he would acknowledge... I was always under the impression that most riders recieved colors based on skill and frequency of hunting.

I thought it was a genuinly okay question to ask, as this is a good place to recieve knowledgable answers...I really dont care about who has colors and who doesnt, that was not my intended point, it was really only about landowners.

[Ware Whip!]

"Manners require time, as nothing is more vulgar than haste."
Ralph Waldo Emmerson

It is surprising what makes for conversation on and off the hunt field.
I , for instance,quite frankly, find it gauche to take someone to task in a public fourm for asking a question. If one finds it in such poor taste, rather than calling down a member, why not take it private ? Enlighten someone, do not tear them down, or make assumptions of whom they are speaking of, or why.

If you are going to give lessons in social behaviour and etiquette about the ins and outs of foxhunting, at the very least be kind about it. That is the very essence of being gracious and having good manners.

Please and thank you.
Ware Whip!

[Painted Wings]

I hunted as a landowner on and off for many years. My in-laws own 165 acres in the heart of the country and my Husband and I own another 14. Now that the hunt has moved to less populated territory I have had to join. Hunts should welcome the landowners to hunt with open arms. You should only join if you want to.

[Jaegermonster]

... I was always under the impression that most riders recieved colors based on skill and frequency of hunting.



I have to add something to this. In our hunt, it is suggested that you hunt at least 50% of the season's hunts. Colors are also based on your "service" and dedication to the hunt. This means that you should be active in the kennels on a regular basis (walk out and bathe hounds in the off season as well as regular season) do other things that need doing, help out guests and newer members, show up for the workdays, help out at Hunter Paces or Pony Club activities if your hunt has them, to display knowlege of the various territories and hunting rules and ettiquette, be properly equipped and turned out, bring in new members if you can, and generally be a good overall representative of the hunt. Of course donations of $ are also helpful, but by requiring some service it also enables those who aren't independently wealthy to get their colors.
So it's not just about riding well or riding a lot, most hunts actually expect you to do something.

[Acertainsmile]

Thanks so much for all of your replies... these were some of the questions I was curious about...

[wateryglen]

Jennifer! Heck!.....most folks who've done what that man did would've been awarded a mastership by now....the heck with colors!! Many local MFH's have "earned" or been voted their masterships for less!! :winkgrin: I know one MFH thats only been hunting 3 years and has been "rewarded" for his generousity for similar acts by his hunt. And many large landowners get "rewarded" in various ways by hunts. As well they should IMHO!!! It's really up to the hunt and it does vary greatly.

[gkittredge]

I have been watching this thread from the side lines without contributing, but I am compelled to reply.

Acertiansmile questions are valid and most appropriate.

Acertiansmile. On behalf of those who cross your lands, thank you. There is nothing so important to the future of hunting and open space as that of a landowners generosity. Without your support, all manners of hunting, would not have the lands required to operate.

To answer your question about joining a hunt: No, you are not required to do so.

In my hunt, the landowners provide a service that pales in comparison to all other subscribers combined. Should a landowner wish to join, I would most certainly welcome them with open arms, but you are not required to do so. However, I am unfortunately not able to extend full subscriptions for free to all landowners. I would like to, but simple finances do not allow it. Plus where do I draw the line? The landowners themselves, what about immediate family, how about extended family, or perhaps a guest? I do not charge a capping fee to the landowners, relatives or their guests of that days fixture. You do not need to cap to hunt your own land. I do ask that you cap to hunt other’s property. To date, this policy has been well received and I have not heard of any complaints or grumblings. Most folks understand the financial constraints of maintaining a pack of hounds and are happy to lend their financial support as well as the gift of using their land.

I apologize if you have felt undue pressure to join. Your contribution of allowing the hunt on your lands is the biggest gift you can give to a hunt.

Some hunts are made up of multiple Masters. Some hunts elect their Masters by a vote on a rotating terms. One year, two years, three years, etc. Typically for landowner relations that task is left to the Senior Master. (the longest serving Master) Some Junior Masters just to not understand the delicate nature of landowner relations or may not have the required time served as Master or, understand protocol and tradition. For that matter, most members of the Field do not have the required etiquette either. The worst thing for a hunt is a revolving door of Masterships – that is a discussion for another thread.

When out hunting the hounds. Only the Huntsman is allowed to speak to the hounds. The Whipper-Ins will utter a few commands, “Get back to him”, “leave it” etc. The reason this rule is in place is to allow the Huntsman the ability to hunt the hounds without interference and to make sure that only one set of instructions is received by the hounds. The same protocol holds true for landowners. When it comes to this very important aspect of our sport, landowner relations are to be handled by the Senior Master or the person that the Senior Master appoints. Never should they be handled by a member of the Field.

The awarding of colors varies from hunt to hunt. I have a set of criteria that must be met before I consider awarding colors. One of those steps is a full paying subscriber for a minimum of three years. After that length of time I then begin to evaluate that person. What have they done above and beyond, what contributions to the hunt have they made, (not financial in nature) their attitude when out hunting, are they a good ambassador of the hunt? Things like that. I cannot even begin to speculate under what circumstances the gentleman you speak of was awarded colors. I suggest you speak to the Senior Master of the hunt and inquire as to the required qualifications to earn colors.

Should you desire, please contact me privately and I can tell you the name of the Senior Master of the hunt in question. Your concerns should be brought to them. At the same time I ask you to accept my apology for the outbursts from the Field. And to those members of the Field… a stern warning. Your continued involvement in a hunt is by invitation. Should you decide to treat a landowner with anything less than total respect, whether they have five acres or five thousand, I suggest you retire to the inside of a ring and stay there.

Acertiansmile, thank you for your support.

[Acertainsmile]

Thankyou so much for all the information gkittredge, it is very appreciated... I have to say I was a little disturbed by some of the things said on this thread, but not enough to discourage me from hunting. Our local hunt is made up of some very nice colorful people, and I truly look forward to getting to know them better while out hunting. I would like to add that I have been invited to go out with the huntsman in the mornings, and feel honored to have been asked. I live about a 1/2 mile from the kennels. I will post here about my latest adventures! Thanks again, and happy hunting.

[gkittredge]

Enjoy your time with the Huntsman and the Hounds. Watching how they work together and the bond formed by the Huntsman and the pack is truly an amazing sight. I personally think it is spiritual.

You will have a wonderful time.

Oh, and hide a steak in your pocket. Sure to win points with the pack! :winkgrin:

Gregory

[Ware Whip!]

Well done gkittredge, it is the people like yourself who give credit to the sport. I feel anyone who hunts is a liaision, how else are people to learn?

Foxhunting has enough issues, with out someone being spoken to in such a fashion. You have shown by example how it is done. What a gentleman.

In Service,
Ware Whip!

[wlrottge]

A very inexperienced hunt wanna be here, but... I do have some experience to share.

My wife's family owns a large (2k+ acre) farm and allows the local hunt on their land. They do run a commercial hunting operation on the farm and the hunt respects that. Even when the hunt accidentally ran across their farm on a "prohibited" day, the master of the hunt was VERY apologetic (it was not a big deal really) and invited them over for a very nice dinner to make up for it.

They always hold the land owners party the night before opening hunt and we're treated VERY well. Her mother and father have always gotten a fixture (they don't ride), but when my wife who does ride inquired, it went right into the mail. The master of the hunt has always asked us to hunt and gave me a hard time earlier in my riding career. (side story, I didn't want to wear breeches and he chastised me.... can't discuss it here, but it was mildly off color ;), lol)

Prior to moving to Utah, we attended a couple of hunt functions per year (paces and various shows). At the time, I was not good enough to even consider hunting, but now that I am, I'd REALLY love to get out. At every function, when we would see the hunt master, he would inquire if we were going to hunt this year and was very enthusiastic about getting us out. My wife would make it occasionally, but I never did. We figured that they felt having us active in the hunt would be good for the hunt. If we enjoyed hunting we were more likely to be advocates for it and they could count on our support.

After two years of living in Utah, we think we're ready to move back to Alabama and I would LOVE to get out with the hunt and learn more about it. That being said, however if we were active and asked to join, I think we would do it.

ETA: From our perspective, we enjoy having the hunt on her land even though we are not "officially" the land owners. We like seeing the hunt prosper as it is one more aspect of horse life available to us. Hunting only adds another layer of flavor to the local horse community, we are just lucky enough to be able to be a part of it in some small way. If it goes, so does a whole part of the lands history.

[Acertainsmile]

Enjoy your time with the Huntsman and the Hounds. Watching how they work together and the bond formed by the Huntsman and the pack is truly an amazing sight. I personally think it is spiritual.

You will have a wonderful time.

Oh, and hide a steak in your pocket. Sure to win points with the pack! :winkgrin:

Gregory


I plan on going out with the hounds next week... the mornings are really a lovely time to ride, I'm really looking forward to it. Although the steak in the pocket sounds dangerous... LOL... Thanks again for your support!

[J Swan]

The awarding of colors varies from hunt to hunt.

After reading this thread again - I feel I need to qualify my comments a bit - or put them into context.

First, I hope the OP enjoys her time with the hounds - walking hounds is my favorite activity and greatly enhances the hunting experience. Watching a hound grow up, learn to hunt, and then watching that hound work is really a great thing to be part of. (even in a very small way)

Second, every member of a hunt owes their ability to foxhunt to the landowners who make it possible. Without them - there simply would be no mounted foxhunting in America. That, and the commitment of staff make the entire sport possible. So - thankyouthankyouthankyouthankyou!!!!!!!!

Third, (and here comes the part where I qualify my comments about colors so y'all don't think I'm a complete jerk) I don't begrudge anyone receiving their colors - whether landowner or not. They are awarded at the discretion of the Master - and truth be told - I'm out there to watch the hounds work - not to show off a strip of silly cloth on my coat. So if a landowner receives colors as a reward for their generous contributions to the sport - I'll be the first one to congratulate them. Sincere congratulations.

But there is another aspect to "colors" that may not be apparent to a lot of folks, and I feel compelled to point it out. There is an order to the field - and in many hunts - it is strictly enforced. (if not by the Master(s), then by members with or without the knowledge of the Master(s) and often because of a perceived "social class" aspect of that Order.

And this is where some folks may get a bit peeved. Not because they don't have colors, whine whine whine - but because their enjoyment of the day is perpetually hampered by being sent to the back of the bus.

Those without colors are supposed to defer to those with colors - the understanding being that a person with colors knows the territory better, knows the fixture, knows where the huntsman is likely to draw, what property to avoid, more knowledge of hounds and houndwork, etc.

Some hunts may be more egalitarian - not minding if a person without colors rides ahead, or leads because they know the fixture better, where to safely cross a stream, or road, etc.

Other hunts may have a different culture - one in which those without colors must always stay in the rear, no matter how experienced they or their horses are - and even those with green horses ride in front - no matter how crazy the horse is acting - because they have been awarded colors and wont "go back". The colors become nothing but a mark of social distinction (or people can't tell who was awarded colors because of their knowledge of hunting vs other types of contributions to the hunt)

People foxhunt for all sorts of reasons - and that's ok. And folks get awarded colors for various reasons - and that's ok too!

But in the end - we are hunting - not rattling our jewelry. I can't speak for everyone - but if a person is not eligible for colors, and is consigned to the back of the bus and expected to defer to everyone else - perpetually - it not only diminishes the enjoyment of every aspect of foxhunting - it makes it difficult to justify writing those big checks every season.

How's that for a run-on sentence.

[Painted Wings]

Interesting because at our hunt there's at least three or four people that fight for the back of the bus. Ha.

When I hunted as a landowner I never expected to receive my colours and didn't. I really just appreciated the free ride. I did usually sponsor at least one brunch a year and walked hounds and anything else I could do to help. Even helped with the party favours for the hunt ball one year.

I don't mind riding in the back and colours are not that important to me. At our hunt I have seen colours awarded for hard work and for frequency of hunting, riding skill, knowledge of territory, etc. We do have people with colours that are not great riders and also do not know the territories but they work hard and contribute greatly to the benefit of the hunt outside of actual riding.

One think that I've noted is that many times after people receive their colours they disappear off the face of the earth.

[J Swan]

That's funny - sometimes a couple of us do the same thing - some days just are so crazy - I'm like - holy sh** - I'm staying back..... waaayyyyyyback! Usually after seeing a few horses doing airs above the ground in front of me or something. Lordy lordy.

Every hunt is different - I hear that a lot but I often don't realize how different until folks from different hunts get to talking.

Odd how a person would disappear after working so hard for the hunt.

Another reason why I enjoy following hounds on foot so much - we're just all out there watching those hounds work - don't have to worry about horses and tack and all that. Just a good pair of walking shoes - and this year - lots of DEET and poison ivy remedies!

Interesting because at our hunt there's at least three or four people that fight for the back of the bus. Ha.

When I hunted as a landowner I never expected to receive my colours and didn't. I really just appreciated the free ride. I did usually sponsor at least one brunch a year and walked hounds and anything else I could do to help. Even helped with the party favours for the hunt ball one year.

I don't mind riding in the back and colours are not that important to me. At our hunt I have seen colours awarded for hard work and for frequency of hunting, riding skill, knowledge of territory, etc. We do have people with colours that are not great riders and also do not know the territories but they work hard and contribute greatly to the benefit of the hunt outside of actual riding.

One think that I've noted is that many times after people receive their colours they disappear off the face of the earth.

[Beverley]

I agree that too many people get too wrapped up in the whole colors issue- if that's a showstopper for anyone, they are hunting for the wrong reasons, in my opinion.

That said, people who have their colors (no matter how they got them!) should be aware that most of us foxhunter types expect the following from them:

1. We expect that since you are prominently displaying your status in a hunt (and we know which hunt because of the color of the collar and/or the buttons), that you capably represent that hunt at all times and do nothing to embarrass your hunt.
2. We expect that you are reasonably knowledgeable in the whys and wherefores of how your hunt does things, the country, etc. If we are hunting with your hunt as a guest and we ask you a question (we seek you out because you have that special collar on) that you will either know the answer or cheerfully refer us to someone who knows the answer.
3. We expect that you know that although having colors allows you to 'start' ahead of the unwashed masses when hounds move off, it does not guarantee that you maintain a position up front when hounds are running. If 'any' other horse and rider wishes to pass you because you are going slower than optimal for any one of a number of reasons, we expect you to immediately let that rider pass (provided it is safe to do so, you aren't expected to throw yourself off of a single file trail in the woods to do this, but we trust you are looking for the first opportunity to yield).
4. We expect you to know enough to keep to the back, or second field, on a green/young/unknown horse so as not to spoil hunting for 'anyone' else out that day. Likewise if your horse refuses a jump, hey, it happens, we expect you to IMMEDIATELY go to the VERY BACK of the field and let everyone else pass before presenting your horse to the jump again.
5. We expect you to have the manners to 'never' question why someone without colors might be in front of you in the field. If they are there because the Master has invited them up, none o' your affair! If they are there because they passed you on a run, you cheerfully and politely accept that, and if you are so inclined, you pass them up when the opportunity arises. But you NEVER are so crass as to say 'you there, go to the back, you don't have colors.'
6. We expect you to know all of the arcane etiquette associated with hunting. This includes, when you are hunting with another hunt, you do NOT wear your colors unless a) it is a joint meet involving your hunt, b) the Master of the host hunt has prominently decreed that 'those privileged to wear the colors of a hunt are welcome to wear them here,' or c) you have specifically asked of the host Master whether you can wear your colors and have been told yes (though this last is a wee bit tacky IMO).

[Ware Whip!]

People foxhunt for all sorts of reasons - and that's ok. And folks get awarded colors for various reasons - and that's ok too!

But in the end - we are hunting - not rattling our jewelry. I can't speak for everyone - but if a person is not eligible for colors, and is consigned to the back of the bus and expected to defer to everyone else - perpetually - it not only diminishes the enjoyment of every aspect of foxhunting - it makes it difficult to justify writing those big checks every season.

How's that for a run-on sentence.

I find that a most excellent run on sentence. I agree with your entire post J Swan, and am usally nodding in agreement with most of them :yes:.

There are all sorts of reasons colours are awarded, and I would be pleased as punch if there were one bit of the horse world that did not have an iota of politics or bureaucracy involved. The love,purpose and passion of the sport, seems to get lost in the shuffle.

Thank you for reminding me why ,
W W!

[Thomas_1]

In the UK where we tend to be terribly fussy and precise about hunting etiquette, its absolute not essential for a land owner to join as a hunt member.

However its normal courtesy for the hunt to invite the landowner who's providing access, to join the hunt if they wish to - and as a respected guest and benefactor - so for free.

Here it would be considered "bad form" to be putting pressure on a land owner who's permitting his property to be used for hunting.

[armandh]

while we never got to a final draft of what a land owner is, we knew it to be those who allowed us to ride over their property. as our old hunt country turned to subdivisions or small fenced yards everywhere, we knew the hand writing was on the wall. there was no way to invite such large numbers.
now we have a new hunt country and get to build land owner relations all over again, but in fewer numbers at our new home http://www.bridlespur.com/

[2ndyrgal]

Well said Beverly and J Swan. How it "should be" and how "it is", are sometimes too far apart for a newbie, or even some who've been around awhile to figure out. However, landowners should be given any and all privileges. It does take money to run a hunt, no matter how "crass" that might sound, it's fact. Many folks, especially these days, would rather write a cheque than clear a trail.

[Jennifer Alcott]

"Manners require time, as nothing is more vulgar than haste."
Ralph Waldo Emmerson

It is surprising what makes for conversation on and off the hunt field.
I , for instance,quite frankly, find it gauche to take someone to task in a public fourm for asking a question. If one finds it in such poor taste, rather than calling down a member, why not take it private ? Enlighten someone, do not tear them down, or make assumptions of whom they are speaking of, or why.

If you are going to give lessons in social behaviour and etiquette about the ins and outs of foxhunting, at the very least be kind about it. That is the very essence of being gracious and having good manners.

Please and thank you.
Ware Whip!

Ware Whip, I didn't mean to take acertainsmile to task for asking a question.

My concern was not with the original question (are landowners required to join?) or the secondary implied question (how does one earn their colors?). I was just disturbed by the implication that the particular landowner (ASSuming that I have guessed correctly) who was being discussed had not "earned" his colors, since several clues made it pretty easy to make an educated guess as to this person's identity.

It was my respect and appreciation for this landowner that prompted my remarks; and the recognition that most people really have no idea how much time and effort that others put into keeping a hunt running. Riding ability and frequency of hunting does not necessarily equate to being someone who makes a great contribution to the hunt in terms of their time and effort. I have seen crack riders who could stay on anything with four legs, a mane, and a tail, and who had the spare time to hunt two or three days a week (or more) who made absolutely, positively NO contribution to the hunt other than paying their dues, who never RSVP for a breakfast but expect to be fed anyway, whose dues are always paid late, and who always manage to "forget" their checkbook at the silent auction.

And the bumbling, middle-aged, overweight person at the back of the second flight who hunts three times a year just might be the individual who stays up all night whelping foxhound puppies, who cries when the last one is stillborn, who takes the bitch & puppies to the vet when things are awry, and who bottle feeds the litter every 4 hours for two weeks when the bitch dies. Or they may be the person who feeds the hounds and cleans up the manure of 30+ hounds one day a week every week so that the huntsman can have a day off. Or they might be the person who just spent the last 6 months planning the hunt ball that raised $20,000 for the hunt.

I'm not a member of the hunt to which I believe acertainsmile is referring, so I have no dog in this fight.

That said, tone is difficult to convey. I meant to be merely emphatic, not harsh or critical. I meant no disrespect to acertainsmile, and his or her status as a landowner has nothing to do with the complete absence of ill-will on my part. I apologize for coming across as harsh or rude--that was not my intent.

acertainsmile, if my assumption about the hunt near you is correct, I think that you will enjoy the group tremendously. Every time I hunted with them, I had a BLAST--friendly people, beautiful territory near the water, and a GREAT pack of hounds with excellent nose and voice. Have fun! :)

[Acertainsmile]

Jennifer, I have asked to be exused for my ignorance between someone having "earned" or "given" colors.. really had no idea this was such a touchy subject... now I do... I very much accept your aplology, if thats what you are meaning to say.

[bosox]

acs=southern maryland
Jen=spots, va


is it possible that you are not referring to the same landowner? I happen to agree w/Jen that this person must have earned their colors in other ways---but I didn't think that acs was being rude...

Cheers!

[J Swan]

And the bumbling, middle-aged, overweight person at the back of the second flight


I got a great laugh out of that phrase because it pretty much describes me to a T!

[Jennifer Alcott]

acs=southern maryland
Jen=spots, va


is it possible that you are not referring to the same landowner? I happen to agree w/Jen that this person must have earned their colors in other ways---but I didn't think that acs was being rude...

Cheers!

Bosox:

Three words:

I get around. :)

[Jennifer Alcott]

I got a great laugh out of that phrase because it pretty much describes me to a T!

Join the club.... ;)

[Snow Princess]

Join the club.... ;)

Jennifer is a bald faced liar........she is not middle aged or overweight!

She does ride a pretty buckskin.. and knows alot about hounds and hunting but has to work on the blatant lies she tells on COTH about being fat and old!:D

[Jaegermonster]

I agree that too many people get too wrapped up in the whole colors issue- if that's a showstopper for anyone, they are hunting for the wrong reasons, in my opinion.

That said, people who have their colors (no matter how they got them!) should be aware that most of us foxhunter types expect the following from them:

1. We expect that since you are prominently displaying your status in a hunt (and we know which hunt because of the color of the collar and/or the buttons), that you capably represent that hunt at all times and do nothing to embarrass your hunt.
2. We expect that you are reasonably knowledgeable in the whys and wherefores of how your hunt does things, the country, etc. If we are hunting with your hunt as a guest and we ask you a question (we seek you out because you have that special collar on) that you will either know the answer or cheerfully refer us to someone who knows the answer.
3. We expect that you know that although having colors allows you to 'start' ahead of the unwashed masses when hounds move off, it does not guarantee that you maintain a position up front when hounds are running. If 'any' other horse and rider wishes to pass you because you are going slower than optimal for any one of a number of reasons, we expect you to immediately let that rider pass (provided it is safe to do so, you aren't expected to throw yourself off of a single file trail in the woods to do this, but we trust you are looking for the first opportunity to yield).
4. We expect you to know enough to keep to the back, or second field, on a green/young/unknown horse so as not to spoil hunting for 'anyone' else out that day. Likewise if your horse refuses a jump, hey, it happens, we expect you to IMMEDIATELY go to the VERY BACK of the field and let everyone else pass before presenting your horse to the jump again.
5. We expect you to have the manners to 'never' question why someone without colors might be in front of you in the field. If they are there because the Master has invited them up, none o' your affair! If they are there because they passed you on a run, you cheerfully and politely accept that, and if you are so inclined, you pass them up when the opportunity arises. But you NEVER are so crass as to say 'you there, go to the back, you don't have colors.'
6. We expect you to know all of the arcane etiquette associated with hunting. This includes, when you are hunting with another hunt, you do NOT wear your colors unless a) it is a joint meet involving your hunt, b) the Master of the host hunt has prominently decreed that 'those privileged to wear the colors of a hunt are welcome to wear them here,' or c) you have specifically asked of the host Master whether you can wear your colors and have been told yes (though this last is a wee bit tacky IMO).


Very well said, however, I must add something about the wearing of colors as a guest at another hunt. Of course I would always ask first, and have never been no. Usually the Master brings it up before I do.
But here's my point: everyone who hunts is not independently wealthy or landed gentry. I have to make many sacrifices to be able to maintain my horses and also to hunt. I only have one black coat and it has my colors on it. It really is not possible for me to buy another black coat "just in case". And I absolutely refuse to go the men's coat from Goodwill route, because unless you actually are a man, it looks like crap.

And another note about conduct of those with colors. Members who are senior to you should still be shown some respect, and please don't cut in front of others who are in line to jump. Occasionally we have photographers at some of the High Holy Days, and we have one member who just got colors who insists on cutting in front of everyone (including guests from other hunts) regularly to jump for the photographer. But I guess that goes back to not embarrassing your hunt.

[Tantivy1]

Very well said, however, I must add something about the wearing of colors as a guest at another hunt. Of course I would always ask first, and have never been no. Usually the Master brings it up before I do.


We cap around a lot and of course the prickly question about wearing colours has to be dealt with at some point in the conversation.

I finally devised a solution that has stood me in good stead:

I simply ask the MFH "Do you prefer for me to wear my colours or not?"

or "What is your preference regarding visitiors and their wearing of colours?"

This lets them know upfront I am happy to respect THEIR decision, whatever it is.

Most times I am asked to please wear them!

[Painted Wings]

I have a questions.

We have a former member, who was awarded colours. Then left the club due to some financial issues (divorce etc.) When she wanted to rejoin it was not allowed due to some landowner issues. (she had threatened to sue a landowner the landowner basically said if you let her back in you can't hunt on our land). So she joined another hunt. The club has now moved and I have noticed this person came to our blessing last year. I don't know who she was a guest of. But she was wearing the colors of our hunt, not the hunt she currently is a member of. I also hunted a couple of times with her hunt and noticed that she wore our colors on the ultra formal days. In other words, her shadbelly has our colours on it and her frock has her current hunt's colors.

How appropriate is it to wear the colors of a hunt you are no longer a member of and paying dues to? For some reason it really bothers me that she wears our hunts colors when she was basically thrown out for a variety of reasons.

[Tantivy1]

I have a questions. How appropriate is it to wear the colors of a hunt you are no longer a member of and paying dues to?

Excellent question and I have asked it myself more than once, but gotten completely different answers.

On one hand I have been told once you have earned your colours, they are yours for LIFE, forever, feel free to wear them in your coffin if you please.

But from others I have heard they are yours for only as long as you are a MEMBER OF THE CLUB YOU EARNED THEM IN.

I for one would like a final disposition on this matter! :)

PS Should we start a new thread?????

PS 2 pardon me for all caps but limiting myself to small or all caps is MUCH too restricting in my book so I have my own rules:

all caps = an emphasis on or inflection in tone of voice while T*H*I*S is S*H*O*U*T*I*N*G

(Thank-you for your attention to my idiosyncrasies!)

[J Swan]

Jennifer is a bald faced liar........she is not middle aged or overweight!

She does ride a pretty buckskin.. and knows alot about hounds and hunting but has to work on the blatant lies she tells on COTH about being fat and old!:D

I have seen a picture of her out hunting - and I agree!

[Beverley]

If you are awarded the colors of a particular hunt, you have the right to wear them for life- with that hunt- so long as you are an active member. If your membership lapses for one, ten, twenty years and you come back, you do not have to re-earn those colors, you already earned them. Forever. With that hunt. BUT, if in the example given by PW, you are not an active member, nope, sorry, that should be a plain black collar and it is up to the Master(s) to say something to that individual.

If you leave the hunt which awarded you colors and go join another hunt, you are starting all over. Take the colors off your coat. You MAY, however, ALWAYS wear the BUTTONS of the hunt which awarded you colors. Even if you don't actively belong to any hunt but are capping around. If like me you received colors from more than one hunt, you 'could' I suppose amuse yourself by using a button from each hunt. I don't tend to bother, myself, just use plain black coat, plain buttons.

As for having a plain black coat for capping around, well yes, I recognize it's an expense, but there are plenty of 'fairly hunted' coats on the market for not much that would do for now and then. I too have always done horses and hunting on a budget, but relative to many other expenses a used but suitable coat is pretty minor. However, Tantivy has pointed out a graceful solution. A variation to her diplomatic question would be, 'I'm afraid my only black coat has my colors on it, would it be appropriate for me to wear it, or shall I come in ratcatcher?' (You DO know, of course, that ratcatcher is always acceptable, even on High Holy Days, with the caveat that you must stick to the rear of the field). The MFH will typically say wear your colors. I've noticed these days that some hunts (Arapahoe comes to mind) typically state up front on their fixture cards and other announcements that 'those privileged to wear the colors of their hunt are welcome to do so here.'

Disclaimer to all of the above, the Master of 'any' hunt is the sole and final authority on the attire rules and variations for his/her/their hunt.

[Painted Wings]

Beverly,

Thanks, I never knew that you could wear a ratcatcher at any time. It is great to hear your rules. In fact I'm spending the weekend with one of the masters and we both found your response very intersting.

Thanks again.

[Beverley]

Beverly,

I never knew that you could wear a ratcatcher at any time.

Indeed you can, and the reason gets back to the original reason for this thread: landowners. Given that they are typically welcome to hunt at any time, and your average farmer isn't necessarily going to have hunt kit, 'anything' he/she wishes to wear is fine, and typically in days of old they would most likely have some sort of a tweed jacket. But of course if the landowner wants to come in coveralls, with a camo gimme cap and riding a plow horse, that is fine too- without the landowners, your club could have all the money in the world but you still wouldn't have a hunt.

[armandh]

if the landowner wants to come in coveralls, with a camo gimme cap and riding a plow horse, that is fine too- without the landowners, your club could have all the money in the world but you still wouldn't have a hunt.

the truth we all must live with to keep the hunt going

sadly development has precluded us hunting by our old kenels
http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/image/40752513
the rock trucks travel the roads at near the speed limit
they probably wont quit until every corner is filled with houses

just as the club did in 1958 when forced from st louis county,
we are once again starting over building landowner relations in a new home
http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/hunt_trail_ride_at_new_property
sunday is the first landowners party at our new clubhouse
http://www.pbase.com/lesliegra/image/69574192

thankyou painted for the excellent photos

[Jaegermonster]

With our hunt, if you let your membership lapse colors must be re-earned if you decide to re join. It's plainly stated in the hunt packet etc (which I don't know why we go to the trouble of printing it and sending it out since no one reads it) but this has taken some people by surprise.

[Acertainsmile]

Armandh... your pictures are lovely! I did notice something though... I hunt my horses in a breastplate, with a standing martingale attachment... I have always been under the impression that a running attachment was a no no.... Noticed several in your pics... Are the equipment rules different for each hunt? MY one particular horse goes better in a running, hence the question!

[Jaegermonster]

Our hunt used to specifically state that standing martingales were not allowed for years, until enough people requested to wear them that it was changed. The reasoning is because it is more restrictive of the horse's head, and could cause him to drown if you were to bog down or get stuck in a ditch or something. All of which is true. I have known a couple of horses that drowned on trail rides due to a standing martingale. Actually they died because the rider didn't have a knife with which to cut it, but dead is dead.
I use a standing martingale on my mare, but I always make sure i have a knife on me when hunting. I did have to bail off once last season and cut it when my 4 yo filly stuck her leg through it while doing some four year old airs above the ground.
But then you should always be carrying a knife when hunting anyway.

[Acertainsmile]

Thanks Jaegermonster, and yes, I have also heard of horses drowning with standing martingales... I think I showed up for our local hunts trail ride with a running a few yrs ago, and someone told me I was not allowed to hunt in it... I'll have to ask about it again.

[Beverley]

I find it interesting that hunts are weighing in on what type of martingale can or can't be used...I've not hunted anywhere where such issues were raised. I've only ever used a standing when needed out hunting, but know plenty of people who have used running martingales. The most important consideration is, use whatever you need to control your horse at all speeds and at all times. If I ever encounter tack police, I think I'll amuse myself by letting them put what they think is the 'correct' tack on the horse and hunting it themselves!:cool: