110-day test stallions? Anyone? [Archive]

Sonesta

Sep. 1, 2007, 02:00 PM

If you mean the 100 day stallion testing being held at Paxton Farms, then here is the list:

2007 Stallion Test – Enrolled Stallions:

Amadeus/Oldenburg
Argosy-Raja’s Ebony xx, by Rajamon xx
Foaled 5/20/00
Owner/Breeder: Paula Brito, Utah

Bravo/Oldenburg
Bugatti Hilltop-Gauguin’s Idea, by Gauguin de Lully
Foaled 5/24/04
Owner: Chris Misita, California
Breeder: Evelyn Morley, Oregon

Confetti/Rheinland
Conteur-SPS Florenz/Feuerfunke xx
Foaled 2/23/04
Owner: Beth Vanderploeg and Dimitriy Kokoshkin, Michigan
Breeder: Leonie and Georg Kellerwessel, Germany

Fielding/Hanoverian
Fred Astair-Lesley/Lessing
Foaled 3/13/04
Owner/Breeder: Kate Palmquist, Virginia

Fuerst Impression/Hanoverian
Fuerst Heinrich-Roxana/Regazzoni
Foaled 3/17/03
Owner: Angela Barilar, Maryland
Breeder: Lueder Koepke, Germany

Gatsby/Oldenburg
Gonzo I-Kalua Song xx/Seattle Song xx
Foaled 2/13/99
Owners: Bill and Lori Wilton, Oregon
Breeder: Gumz Farms, Indiana

Highlight/Hanoverian
His Highness-Lauria/Lauries Crusador xx
Foaled 2/1/04
Owner: Oak Hill Ranch, Louisiana
Breeder: Hans-Henning Decken, Germany

Imparable/Oldenburg
Impresario-Pizzaz/Parabol
Foaled 4/26/04
Owner: Sara Patterson, Idaho
Breeder: Performance Plus Sporthorses, Idaho

Rapture R/Hanoverian
Rotspon-EM Damaris/Donnerhall
Foaled 1/31/01
Owner: Ken and Roberta Falk, Virginia
Breeder: Joachim Tobaben, Germany

Remy G. J./ Swedish
Rubignon-Ensenada/Exlibris
Foaled 5/3/04
Owner/Breeder: Tisha Green, Utah

Reuben SF/Oldenburg
Foaled 2004
Owner: Jane Sommers, California

Richmond H. L./Hanoverian
Rotspon-Davinia/Davignon
Foaled 4/4/04
Owner/Breeder: Lucile Mulky Broadley, North Carolina

Saracen/Oldenburg
Scimitar-Damoiselle/Davignport
Foaled 4/5/02
Owner/Breeder: Michael and Jean Bitely, West Virginia

Sir Wanabi/Hanoverian
Foaled 2002
Owner: Sandra Laprise, Ontario

Vinca/NAWPN
Metall-Perennial/Idocus
Foaled 5/12/02
Owner: Virginia Parker and Virginia Craley, Pennsylvania
Breeder: Parker and Virginia Craley, Maryland

Wamberto/KWPN
Rousseau-Olinda, by Voltaire
Foaled 5/20/03
Owner: Harmony Sporthorses, Colorado
Breeder: L. Heida, Netherlands

Worthy Opponent/Hanoverian
Waikiki-Hoheit/Hohenstein
Foaled 3/2/03
Owner: Dana Estes, California
Breeder: Horst and Jeannine Peterson, Germany

Oakstable

Sep. 1, 2007, 02:07 PM

Seems like a high number coming from the West Coast.

Hope the CA stallions adjust to humidity.

It's 30% here today in SoCal and that is REALLY high for us.

szipi

Sep. 4, 2007, 04:34 PM

Sonesta

Sep. 4, 2007, 07:58 PM

I can't believe that they are putting an 8YO (Gatsby) next to 3 YO's and 4 YO's (and probably they will only give them the 5-point handicap). The 5 point handicap was designed in Germany to differentiate between the 3 YO's and the few 4 YO's....but here.. Andras www.prairiepinesfarm.com

Well, you know, thanks in large part to YOU and a couple others, they weren't able to hold the testing for the past two years, so this stallion couldn't attend. What do you expect them to do with this stallion? Tell him tough sh*t. Go away?

tri

Sep. 4, 2007, 08:47 PM

OHHHH. That is the equivalent of telling the wife beater that it is the wife's fault.

You know it WAS investigated and despite numerous lawsuit threats, including one to me, it was determined that there were LOTS of problems. Get a fricking grip.

The only reason people are giving it a second chance is because of people like us who, despite the law suit threats, tried to get the word out. You ought to thank us because without us, there would not be Suzanne Quarles overseeing it on the stallion owners' behalf.

If they screw it up again, there probably won't ever be another test - because no one will send one.

Sonesta

Sep. 4, 2007, 08:57 PM

tri, Why bless your heart, I absolutey refuse to believe that you are actually as clueless as you appear in your posts.

Derid

Sep. 4, 2007, 09:58 PM

Sonesta

Sep. 4, 2007, 10:01 PM

tri

Sep. 4, 2007, 11:20 PM

Sonesta, you just choose to believe what you want and you haven't been "clued in" for very long either.

I know a lot of what happened at the last test.....and I know a lot of what happened at the test BEFORE that one too....you know, the one that was so successfully swept under the rug. And no, I don't even own a stallion so don't start with the sour grapes thing. But I DO KNOW a lot of what happened.

Curious though, since you are self proclaiming to know. Have you put a stallion through? Have you personally spoken to very many of the stallion owners who have put stallions through? If you have, over how many tests and how many stallion owners?

Edgar

Sep. 5, 2007, 12:57 AM

Tri wrote:
You ought to thank us because without us, there would not be Suzanne Quarles overseeing it on the stallion owners' behalf.

No Tri, you got that all backwards, despite us would be the proper wording. There are people like Suzanne volunteering despite people like yourself.

I was in the board meetings discussing these tests and I was there when we did not take the steps needed to have our interest in the test represented and I was there when we did.

I know that Sonnesta has been in the middle of it for several years video taping the mid terms and finals and providing them for owners who were not able to make it. Quite a nice service I would say and now she has put an educational DVD together for interrested stallion owners about the test and prep.

Since this is so important to many, you as well Tri why not give it a chance, you, me, Sonnesta and many others are trying for the best in our own ways. I am pleased so far but stallions may still get hurt and some will not make it, that is what part of this test is supposed to do but we all want the best possible results which gives us a first indication of a stallions talent and possibility of a breeding career.

szipi

Sep. 5, 2007, 08:53 AM

The main complaint was a lack of communication between the testing staff and the stallion owners. Many of the "issues" would have not existed if there had been better communication. Easy fix - appoint someone who would be the intermediary between the testing staff and the stallion owners.

It's not as dramatic as some would like it to seem.

Sonesta,

You have been a great proponent and supporter of the 100-day testing. I also support the concept, as is written down....but not the way it is actually implemented here. Unfortunately you have only attended the final 3 days of the stallion testings (which is always fun) and you have no idea what has gone on there on a day-to-day basis. It is not the lack of communication - it is the LACK OF HORSEMANSHIP what was the problem. Just read the results of the investigation by the Federation of North American Sporthorse Registries. Sincerely, Andras www.prairiepinesfarm.com

szipi

Sep. 5, 2007, 09:03 AM

Well, you know, thanks in large part to YOU and a couple others, they weren't able to hold the testing for the past two years, so this stallion couldn't attend. What do you expect them to do with this stallion? Tell him tough sh*t. Go away?

Thanks to me, changes were prompted, after years of very bad things happening at the testing. But sticking to the subject: If my math is correct, in 2004, at the time of the last testing, Gatsby was 5 years old. At the time of the 2002 100-day testing, he was a 3 YO. He had plenty of opportunity to go. The test is DESIGNED for 3 year-olds, with the occassional 4 YO present. What they should have told himl that he should get his requirements through sport - or, if they want the owner's money that bad, they should assign handicap points for each additional year....otherwise this test has no actual meaning. Andras

tri

Sep. 5, 2007, 12:30 PM

Edgar, I am giving it a chance. I am waiting to see what the outcome is and if they don't mess this testing up, I will once again - as I used to be - be a proponent of the testing.

I honestly don't think it was "despite us", as you say. And, I don't believe YOU believe that either. I'm calling you on it. You wanted the changes as much as we did and you were frustrated with the inaction and the denials as much as we were. Maybe you did or did not recieve the "shut up or else" lawsuit threats that MANY of us recieved. And that was when we were NOT going public but trying to work within the system directly with the people responsible. It pissed us off and it is ONLY then that many of us got vocal regarding the problems.

I should have done it sooner. I did shut up after the test before last, thinking they would fix the problem although not acknowledge them. But then look what happened at the very next test. It was even worse but at least more people knew about it and, like me, more willing to talk about it.

Edgar, maybe you can look at yourself in the mirror and rationalize your silence as being "good for the overall registry goals". But I am here to say that I formally apologize to all the stallion owners for not speaking up sooner.

Shame on you Edgar. I thought more of you than that.

Sonesta

Sep. 5, 2007, 12:37 PM

I have a very difficult time taking seriously ANYONE who hides behind an anonymous screen name. Tri, you know who I am and who Edgar is. Just who the hell are YOU?

tri

Sep. 5, 2007, 02:07 PM

Ok, how about the Federation of North American Sporthorse Registries? They were concerned enough to do an investigation and found a lot of problems, now didn't they? Are you taking them seriously?

Sonesta

Sep. 5, 2007, 03:23 PM

Edited because I won't be drawn into a snark fest with tri. Fish below has posted a link that should somewhere on it have a copy of the letter from the Federation investigation (Hey! I posted it there!) so those interested can see for themselves that there was a lot of smoke (allegations) but very little fire.

fish

Sep. 5, 2007, 03:31 PM

Wow! bloody.....can one or more of the individuals responding to the original post fill in a newbee as to what everyone is discussing in this public forum? I understand we are discussing the 100-day stallion test for NA, but what were the original complaints that caused the admins to add a voice for the stallion owners? I don't really care who's fault it was that it was cancelled last year. Thanks.

I think this thread will answer your question if you want to take the time to read through it: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=28121&highlight=Paxton

Edgar

Sep. 5, 2007, 04:57 PM

Tri I think you want to look important because belittleling people who actually are part of the progress is not so effective. Everybody can sit back and wait and everybody can pick and choose things to critique. Being a loud mouth on an internet site does not do a thing positive to be part of the solution. I choose to use effective channels to improve the test. You it seems are stuck in the past with allegations which mostly did not prove anything. now we go on making it the best we can regardless and despite......

Sonesta

Sep. 5, 2007, 05:01 PM

Ok, took a look at the thread fish mentioned above. It's educational, but should also be followed up by http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=31197
on page 7 of which is a copy of the letter from the investigation.

tri

Sep. 5, 2007, 07:33 PM

Sonesta, this is what YOU posted on that thread:

"Take a careful look at the report. With the exception of the AVT fiasco, there were no terrible scenes in my opinion. We have all, if we have trained horses or been around the training of horses, seen a horse panic and flip the first time in side reins. We have ALL had to aim a horse into a wall to stop him. And "getting tough with a horse" and then "laughing about it" is hardly a crime as there was no description of what was done that was "tough." I submit that you had BETTER get tough with a stallion at times or you will be in trouble.

So, what we have left is some crappy hay (which I can tell you from actually BEING there was, indeed, crappy looking, but I was also told while I was there that this was the one bad shipment that had just come in and EVERYONE was upset about it), bedding that was too light for some, poor communication with stallion owners and the possibility for a PERCEPTION of impropriety because the TD was an ISR board member and had trained a couple of the stallions.

The saddest part was the pony who didn't get his shoes changed. That was terrible and shouldn't have happened. That was a clusterf*ck of the first order and would have pissed me off no end, too."

So,

#1. You agree that a stallion had his head tied to his stirrup and was chased around by an ATV, then left alone & unsupervised in the paddock, sweaty, stirrups down with his head still tied to the stirrup.

#2. You agree that the hay was very bad.

#3. You agree that the farrier work was spotty at best with one pony stallion going 75 days without his feet getting down.

#4. You agree that the bedding was poor causing hock sores, etc.

Also, from THE REPORT, the FEDERATION also doesn't like the control that ISR/Oldna & AHS has accounting for 65% of the score for all stallions and thinks that it is a conflict of interest - especially when they charge stallion owners to be the stallions' trainer prior to the test - so they, according to THE REPORT get to pick the stallions that go to the test, get to be paid to train the stallions for the test, then get to judge the stallions for the test and then get to judge those stallions' foals as premium or not - doesn't even past the remotest smell test and THE FEDERATION agrees.

Sonesta, you have the audacity to ask ME if I'M CLUELESS???? Give me a break.

Edgar, you did nothing to improve the test. We all know the improvements were made because of us "loudmouths". YOUR WELCOME.

Sonesta

Sep. 5, 2007, 08:30 PM

Ah, so you will try to misquote and try and twist my words to fit your agenda? Why am I not surprised that the owner/editor/publisher of the failed Warmbloods Magazine who took people's money for nothing would do such a thing. Yes, Kathy Stover, I now know who you are.

My words stand for themselves and your added insinuations are your own. Get over yourself.

#1. You agree that a stallion had his head tied to his stirrup and was chased around by an ATV, then left alone & unsupervised in the paddock, sweaty, stirrups down with his head still tied to the stirrup.

Absolutely do not agree. The oft proffered and discussed video of a stallion with his head tied being chased with an ATV was proven not to exist. The THOUGHT of it was disturbing. Still is. But again, no proof except claims by someone with an agenda. And the explanation of what actually happened was WAY more plausible than your insinuations of abuse.

#2. You agree that the hay was very bad.

Only the last batch. The hay was ONE SHIPMENT received the day before the finals. EVERYONE was pissed about it's quality. But one shipment does not "TERRIBLE HAY FOR THE ENTIRE TESTING" make. And I have photos of EVERY SINGLE stallion the day they arrived and the last day of the testing. ALL looked better at the end. So, I don't think they were doing anything wrong with the feed before this bad shipment of hay. And I'm sure YOU'VE never received a bad load?

#3. You agree that the farrier work was spotty at best with one pony stallion going 75 days without his feet getting down.

Absolutely NOT. The poor pony's shoes not being changed was a result of plain old bad communication, not BAD HORSEMANSHIP or ABUSE as you fools would like it to seem. And the pony's owner deserves some responsibility here as they sent the pony there with overdue shoes. If they'd done their job and had his shoes reset before he came it would not have been an issue, now would it? The farrier was not supposed to have had to worry about the ponies who were to be there only 30 days. Somehow, someone dropped the ball and did not alert him that this pony needed his shoes reset. But, then, no harm, no foul. He performed just fine. But I would STILL have been pissed if I were his owner. Pissed, but hardly thinking the staff was criminal.

#4. You agree that the bedding was poor causing hock sores, etc.

Wrong again. Bedding was too light FOR SOME. Most found it quite fine, thank you. You can't please everyone - as any barn owner knows. There was certainly no general finding of inadequate bedding or problems with the bedding. Just a mention of a couple of complaints.

Folks, please understand that there are some who like to scream that the sky is falling. Before you run around and repeat their hysteria, do some REAL research.

Before I pointed out the link to the Federation's letter, I almost posted a request that those of you reading post what you THINK or BELIEVED happened at the last testing (I'm sure the list would have been horrifying) and THEN posted a link to the letter to show that it was much more tame than the hysteria would indicate. Wish I had done.

Oakstable

Sep. 5, 2007, 09:29 PM

Ya know, I think some buyers hear/read about all the hoopla over the NA testing and rather than wade through all the stuff, they figure it is easier to just pay the extra money and buy in Europe. Semen, horses, whatever.

The Oldenburg registeries "war" had that effect a few years ago. I could see buyers saying they did not want to make the wrong choice so they would buy neither. I felt that way myself. It's hard enough for mare owners to recoup costs, let alone be ahead.

The adage "where there's smoke, there's fire" has truth to it. I am not questioning that some bad stuff happened in the past.

Let's move on. Rehashing and rehashing is such a turn off to buyers for all our programs.

Sonesta

Sep. 5, 2007, 09:31 PM

removed to rethink

enavant

Sep. 5, 2007, 09:38 PM

I hate to even engage but......tri.....GET A LIFE!!!!
Owner of a stallion gone through the testing and another son there now!!
BRING IT ON!!!!!
www.enavantstud.com

EAH

Sep. 5, 2007, 10:14 PM

I may be reading this wrong but the report cited on page 7 of the previous thread said

"We did independently verify that the horse was "chased" by an ATV."

Thus, it seems that this did occur.

Sonesta

Sep. 5, 2007, 10:15 PM

Depends upon your definition of "chased." Remember, there is ALWAYS more to a story than there appears. I wasn't there and cannot be a source of first-hand knowledge on this issue. IF (HUGE "IF") the TD actually did intentionally chase a stallion with an ATV while the stallion's head was tied to a stirrup, then SHAME ON HIM. No defending it.

All I'm saying is that we have only ONE person to say this happened. And, I'm sorry, but that person would say (and has said) just about ANYTHING to discredit the testing. So, I consider the source.

As for tying the head to a stirrup, while it's not something I would ever do in training, it IS in fact a commonly accepting training tactic - like it or not.

And if THAT is the only thing left to make the entire testing so horrible, then... um, maybe there has been some serious over-reacting? Or maybe some alterior motives? Think about it.

EAH

Sep. 5, 2007, 11:25 PM

KimPeterson

Sep. 6, 2007, 07:49 AM

Is the testing accepted by the KWPN ?

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 6, 2007, 09:06 AM

I really think the problem is that they said the event occurred but noreal explanation has been offered. Maybe you do not feel an explanation is needed but others might feel it is. Horse or any type of animal abuse is a hot button issue as evidenced by the controversy about Amy Tryon and Michael Vick.

Being strightforward and honest generally helps and I think even Bill Clinton would tell you that now.

You hit the nail right on the head. Stepping up to the plate, and acknkowledging that there have been concerns, and they are trying to fix them would have instantly silenced many people. Instead, the attitude was, we are above answering to anyone, and we can do anything we like and everyone just better shut up, and live with it.

I do hope this testing goes smoothly.

Sonesta

Sep. 6, 2007, 09:42 AM

Sonesta,
I do not pretend to know much but it seems the quote that I placed in my comment about the ATV was from the report generated by the "Powers that be" and was mentioned in your post in the past. That is where I got it.

I really think the problem is that they said the event occurred but noreal explanation has been offered. Maybe you do not feel an explanation is needed but others might feel it is. Horse or any type of animal abuse is a hot button issue as evidenced by the controversy about Amy Tryon and Michael Vick.

Being strightforward and honest generally helps and I think even Bill Clinton would tell you that now.

Yes, you are correct that there has been "no comment" when there should have been forthcoming comment. I was given a very plausible (to me) explanation of what happened with regard to the ATV incident (and lots more stuff). However, I was asked not to forward any of the information in that email. I always honor my word even though I have been SORELY tempted to break it on this one.

I would ask that you please take my word for it that sometimes there is more to a story than what meets the eye from across a field. And that it may well have been nothing sinister at all. But I do concede that I was not there and cannot know first hand.

But others are also correct and additional rehashing of the subject is counter-productive. So, I will try and end my additions to this thread. I just have a hard time sitting silent while some try to continually poison the well about the testing with absolute falsehoods.

DownYonder

Sep. 6, 2007, 12:23 PM

Let’s not forget that just about everyone on this forum who is so frantically trying to downplay the “issues” from past testings is somehow involved with the testing group and/or the sponsoring registries - either as official videographer, official announcer, registry board member, etc. It is therefore understandable that they do not have an impartial viewpoint.

Let’s also not forget that all of us who support stallion performance testing better hope this one is hugely successful and free of the controversy that has marked past testings. If there are problems with this test, it may well be the end of stallion testing in this country, at least for a long while.

Sonesta

Sep. 6, 2007, 12:27 PM

I'm not an official anything with the testing. I asked permission to video and make the videos available to the public. Same as any photographer.

My concerns are that we not DESTROY the testing here with innuendo and falsehoods. That would benefit no one here.

And remember, the testings in Germany have issues each year as well. We just don't seem to crucify their testings, like we do here.

DownYonder

Sep. 6, 2007, 01:11 PM

Sonesta

Sep. 6, 2007, 01:41 PM

OK, my bad. But if you have official blessings from the testing company to video the proceedings and sell the DVDs, that sort of makes you official, whether you have the title or not.

And I'm not sure that anyone wants to DESTROY the testing, but rather HELP it become better and safer and more fair for ALL participants.

Cool! Any system can always be improved. By help and not villification.

And there are a number of folks out there who seem to have a mission to destroy it.

talloaks

Sep. 6, 2007, 01:57 PM

And there are a number of folks out there who seem to have a mission to destroy it.

Boy that is the way I see it from where I have been all these years!!

szipi

Sep. 6, 2007, 02:05 PM

Cool! Any system can always be improved. By help and not villification.

And there are a number of folks out there who seem to have a mission to destroy it.

Sonesta,
I tried to discuss this matter with the "officials" for almost 2 years (between 2002 and 2004). I wanted to share my experiences and wanted to find out what EXACTLY happened to my stallion, so I could treat him better. I got screamed at and threatened with a lawsuit right off the bat. I couldn't do anything then, because I did not have any proof what had been going on....well, after the 2004 event, I have got some.

Also, please, tell me where on earth there's a description of tying the horse's head to the girth then chasing him with a fourwheeler in the books of classical training? There is NO PLACE for this in sporthorse training. PERIOD. Andras

ahf

Sep. 6, 2007, 06:34 PM

I sat on the following response for 24 hours.Since I feel just as strongly now as I did when I wrote it...apparently I need to post it.

I was at the CURRENT 100dt 5 days ago and have the following things to say about some of the things posted on this thread:

The bedding is up over his ankles.

I’d have to pay $7 a bale here, in the middle of a hay shortage, to get the kind of hay he’s eating. I’d eat it myself. It doesn’t matter what the hay is like anyway. Don Kappler is tweaking the ration to match the nutrient profiles of the hay.

The farrier’s shoeing schedule is posted on his website.

Conflict of interest WHERE? When was the last time an AHS stallion even placed in the TOP THREE? 1995????????????? With the time, $ and resources my registry pours into this endeavor, year after year, after year, so that we don’t have to ship our stallion prospects back to Germany, it’s very clear TO ME you can’t buy your placing. Heaven forfend that a Hanoverian should actually do well at this test now. The conspiracy theorists will have a FIELD DAY. There is a grassy knoll over every ridge in this particular zip code of cyberspace.

Edgar, as an active, very vocal member of the AHS board, and a member of the executive committee, has done more on this subject than anyone not closely involved in the registry will EVER KNOW. A whole LOT of people put month’s worth of time, thought, and effort into making this test a good one. "Good" doesn't mean my stallion passes. "Good" means he was given the chance to succeed.

Ultimately, no one held a gun to my head to send my stallion. I don’t ‘do” the blame game, and neither do I abdicate my responsibilities as the stallion owner, and an active, interested party. And the last time I bought into a “whisper down the lane” game on the internet was never.

The poisonous, negative energy on this board just oozes off the monitor into my lap.

tri

Sep. 6, 2007, 06:50 PM

"I may be reading this wrong but the report cited on page 7 of the previous thread said

"We did independently verify that the horse was "chased" by an ATV."

Thus, it seems that this did occur. "

EAH, exactly! And, yet we have Sonesta calling names saying I'm clueless. We can all figure it out - threats, name calling, strong arming and sweep it under the carpet mentality is still happening.

Did you also catch the part in the report where neither the AHS or the ISR/Oldna would cooperate with the investigation?

But I have made it clear that if the problems are resolved, that I would be a supporter as I used to be.

Also, as szipi stated, there were a few people, myself included, that did try and work through the channels and were subsequently threatened with lawsuits. It was only after going public despite the threats that anything was done.

AHF, I am glad to hear of your positive comments regarding the current test. I think, in large part, you can thank a few people who had the courage to stand up and fight. I do think it is sad, however that you think the Federation's independent findings is the equivalent to "whispering down the lane". Instead of upholding the integrity of what organization we have in this country, you are dismissing their oversight abilities and trying to render integrity useless as it pertains to keeping high standards for our country's breeding efforts.

Centerline Farm

Sep. 6, 2007, 07:26 PM

You know, that test was then. This test is now. :sleepy:

You guys need to move on.

Since you are all so determined to drag the people that run the tests through the mud, perhaps you should all go to the testing right now and find/fabricate new dirt on the situation there. Then come back and spread it all over public boards for everyone else to help gossip and blow out of proportion.

At least THEN it would be a relevant thread for a change.

enavant

Sep. 6, 2007, 10:11 PM

Love your post Kate. I am way too full of piss and vinegar and you do a much better job than I at relaying info. to naysayers.
I just have to say that until you have dealt with and ridden young stallions (and believe me I love them) you don't have any business giving any opinions on this topic. You have something to say.....come on over to my place and I will put you up on one!
Ursula

tri

Sep. 6, 2007, 10:45 PM

We have moved on. There have been some changes implemented - thanks to a handful of people that stood up and demanded it. Most feel that the changes were necessary and are a good thing. I boggles my mind that some of you don't feel that they were necessary at all. But then, those people are the same ones who say it was all gossip even though it was independently verified AND there was video also verified.

Hopefully, this test will be very good. And those that like to tie their horses head to the saddle and chase them around won't be allowed to do that anymore.

studslave

Sep. 6, 2007, 11:17 PM

Nice to see we can move forward. Lets hope its good for all involved so it can continue to approve domestic stallions as well as ones brought here for the US breeders.

Foxdale Farm

Sep. 13, 2007, 03:15 PM

Wow! I feel like I tuned in late to the Jerry Springer show that was about my stallion and me! Fist fights, name calling, lawsuits threatened... of course, all done decently and in the good order of the Classical Sporthorse tradition... Classy? I don't know 'bout that but very entertaining I must say! :^) It really got my dander up on several occasions. My heart hasn't beat like that since my first kiss!

As stallion owners who did send our stallion to the 100 d.t. this year, here is our two cents worth...

We did our own investigation. We talked and listened to many people. We read and researched. We sought the opinion and input of our breed registry (which in neither of the hosting registries). We considered all the costs - mentally, emotionally, financially, and physically, for our stallion and ourselves.

We do appreciate that there were those who exposed past problems. Their opinions and information has been duly noted. We heard and received it. We have pondered it. We understood the risks involved. Thank you. It was important and helpful information.

We also appreciate that there are those who actively worked in a positive way to set up new systems of communication and oversight. We feel VERY comfortable with the level of physical care, nutritional expertise, and access to information and communications. While we still feel a bit of anxiety concerning the test, that is to be expected. It feels like we have sent our boy off to Hogswart for a semester. Of course we have anxiety. But I can pull out my cell phone 24/7 and check up on him. All of our calls or inquiries have been addressed in a professional way and in a timely fashion. The director, the host farm, the vet, the farrier - all have been absolutely superb thus far. We do not have one complaint.

How will our stallion do? Will he come home sound? What if he doesn't pass? (Apparently, he is "so old" that he either will be handed the victor's crown because of his seniority alone or else he will fall over dead of old age at any moment. He didn't really have much of a choice of when he was born... nor did we have much of a choice of when he could go to the test... 2007 was the first opportunity WE had to send him.)

It is a bit frustrating and disconcerting that some feel the freedom to post negative comments or opinions about something so precious to us. Especially when it is obvious that they do not have all the information. Nor, does it seem, that they consider the "light" that our stallion might be placed in. We believe that is possible to take a win/win approach to breeding. We need not tear down another stallion in order for our horse to look better. The point of the 100 d.t. is not competition between horses. The point is to reveal his potential as a breeding prospect. A stallion's age does not increase their natural abilities, work ethic or temperament. Hopefully the riders and director of the test are competent enough to know that a younger stallion will react differently than an older one. It isn’t about who can do the highest level dressage move or jump the highest. It is about aptitude. Age reveals aptitude but does not enhance it.

We respectfully request that our stallion's name (Gatsby) would no longer be used in negative postings. Anyone who has serious concern or questions about how, and why he is attending the 100 d.t. is invited to contact us directly. We love to have open, honest, responsible communication about our stallion.

It seems to me that those who send their stallions to the test are the ones who are responsible to make the decision for themselves and they WILL live by the consequences of that choice.

So, yes, we thank those who have worked hard to make positive changes. We also are grateful that the past mistakes have been brought into the light so that they can be corrected. It does seem like it is time to take the opportunity of this forum to move our collective passion for breeding excellent horse forward in a positive direction. Perhaps we should have a moratorium on re-hashing old news until we can review the results, both good and bad, of this current testing? That seems reasonable. After all, the only thing we can do right NOW, is wait and see. What is true will be revealed - good or bad - it will ALL come into the light.

Until then, thanks again to all who have participated in making the 2007 test a good experience for us so far. Whether you did so by revealing areas that needed attention or if you were part of the creative and positive solution. We appreciate your efforts and input.

Thanks,
Bill and Lori

ahf

Sep. 13, 2007, 03:22 PM

Bill...thank you! I was beginning to feel like the lone SO ranger.

I hope the young woman that came to visit Gatsby on 8/29 when I was there went ahead and booked to him after what she saw. Your stallion is the very soul of kindness.

Hope to see you, if not next week at the mid-test, at the finals.

Warm and encouraging thoughts to you and Lori.

Kate

Foxdale Farm

Sep. 13, 2007, 03:42 PM

Kate,

Thank you for your kind words. The young woman sent us the money on that very day! She also found the director, rider and grooms very helpful, polite and welcoming. They did not do anything necessarily to promote our boy but they were helpful and we are appreciative. She said that she talked to another stallion owner who also was very helpful and welcoming. Perhaps that was you. If so, thanks for your efforts.

Unforunately, we will not be at the mid-term... Time and distance does not afford us that opportunity but we certainly are committed to being there in November.

Thanks again for your encouraging words.

Bill

tri

Sep. 13, 2007, 04:19 PM

Foxdale Farm

Sep. 13, 2007, 05:44 PM

Bill, I do wish you luck with your stallion and I wish ahf luck with her stallion as well.

Unfortunately, by sending your stallion to a 100 day testing, you no longer get to determine the what, how, and why your stallion is being discussed - sort of like celebrities who want good promotion but then complain about anything bad. You are not going to be able to control it nor should you. You sent your stallion there and he will now be discussed, the good, the bad and the ugly. Hopefully there won't be anything other than good things!

Tri...

Thanks for your well wishes.

You are correct. We cannot control it. All I/we can do is "respectfully request." All parties have the freedom to choose their actions and conduct. Nevertheless, my invitation to talk one on one, in a private setting, is open to any who might truly desire to participate in a positive way.

All the best!

tri

Sep. 13, 2007, 07:05 PM

Oh, I agree and I encourage anyone to call and speak with any stallion owner on a one on one basis. However, forums like these do serve as a portal of open communication where merits, ideas, ideals, problems, opinions and etc are shared, examined, discussed, argued and otherwise put forth in the public light much more freely than a one on one conversation would.

Hmm, much like the "spreading of the word" of what happened at previous 100 day tests worked wonders when "one on one" "positive" communications were met with nothing more than slammed doors and threats of lawsuits.

Touchstone Farm

Sep. 13, 2007, 11:22 PM

Hmm, much like the "spreading of the word" of what happened at previous 100 day tests worked wonders when "one on one" "positive" communications were met with nothing more than slammed doors and threats of lawsuits.

For goodness sake, Tri, just drop it. What are you looking for -- pats on the back, like you conquered Voldemort (to use someone's previous analogy)?? Name one thing in life (products, services, personalities...) that couldn't be improved in some respect? The important thing is learning and improving...and not beating a dead horse (so to speak).

Good luck to all the stallion owners. I visited a stallion test at Paxton Farm a few years ago and I thought it was very interesting and educational. Wish I lived closer to come and watch the last days again. (And I'd be on tranquilizers if I had a stallion in it. I would be so nervous to see how my stallion did!!!)

szipi

Sep. 14, 2007, 09:14 AM

All the positive news from the 100-day testing are encouraging. But I also believe that we should remain vigilant.

Past problems with the testing have all been connected to one person, the training director. The TD stayed in place. What changed is that he is under more scrutiny, which is apparently preventing some of the gross incidents. Everyone should remember, these changes were forced onto the 100-day testing, it was not the consequence of accepting past mistakes and making voluntary improvements. At this point everybody is hoping that the changes implemented are adequate. If this format is successful for years, then everyone can relax. But it is too early to declare victory. Remember, if one screws up and goes bankrupt, credit will not be available to that person for a long time and then it takes even more time and effort to establish good credit. If easy credit is available to people who do not deserve it, the outcome is negative for everyone.

I did not want to offend anybody with my comments about Gatsby being 4 or 5 years older than other stallions. It is just a fact and it is also a fact that the test and the scoring was not designed to deal with such differences. As such like most other horses, Gatsby will pass the test with flying colors and gets fully licensed (great, this is one part why the stallion is tested) and it is a positive thing. My point was not that he should not participate. My point was that I do not believe that the scores will be much of a use for a mare owner, since all the scores are with comparison to horses that are less than half his age. So the mare owner will have to rely on other measures, like getting the horse know in person (which is always a very good thing).

It always boggles my mind when people read more into things that are written down or simple statements of facts make people think that they are being attacked.

I have always wished well to all the stallions at the testing. If it weren't for a few of us, everything would have stayed the same - more stallions would have been compromised and more stallion owners would have been gone through hell. It seems like things are changing for the better and we should all hope it stays the same way for years to come.

Andras
www.prairiepinesfarm.com

tri

Sep. 14, 2007, 09:59 AM

I think the problem is the few here who are posting that there weren't any problems. It is that mentality that is keeping the rancor going. And also, the idea those few are generating that the rest of us didn't work internally using "positive" methods and that we want to tear down the system.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I think every one of us who started down this path tried to work for the betterment of the system with those in charge of the system. It didn't work. As the Federation's report also stated, EB and Hugh Bellis-Jones would not cooperate with them either. That is a huge problem in my opinion. The changes were not made because they wanted to better the system. The changes were forced on them. They don't like it, didn't want it and definately don't want anyone telling them they have to change it. That is the environment we are operating in to 100 day test our American stallions.

not again

Sep. 14, 2007, 10:26 AM

Foxdale Farm

Sep. 14, 2007, 12:53 PM

Why in 2007 does it take 100 days to figure out which stallion is best? Haven't the Deutsch registries gone more and more to the 30/70 route or performance? What are the costs to the stallion owner over there versus over here?

Wasn't the original purpose of 100 days to measure feed efficiency?

Anne,

I cannot answer your interesting questions, perhaps others can. However, I don't think that the purpose of the 100 d.t. is to "figure out which stallion is the best."

My understanding it that the purpose of the 100 d.t. is to judge each individual stallion's aptitude for dressage and jumping, their temperament, their work ethic and trainability, so that their viability as a breeding prospect will be revealed.

I would be interested to learn about your other questions though.

Bill

tri

Sep. 14, 2007, 01:03 PM

Aren't all the stallions graded against each other though? Sort of like a bell curve? Meaning a stallion may score very high in a 100dt with average performing stallions but lower if he went to a test that had some really steller individuals. So one score may mean different things from test to test depending on the overall quality of the group of stallions going through at that time.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 14, 2007, 01:34 PM

Why in 2007 does it take 100 days to figure out which stallion is best?

Reality is that a competent trainer can thoroughly evaluate temperament, gaits, stable behavior, jumping ability, rideability, trainability, etc within about a week at most. Then we get back to the question of is it about getting a stallion properly trainied to be tested?, or is it really a test? If it IS a test, then 100 days, or 70, or even 30 is not needed if a stallion has been trained before being tested.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 14, 2007, 01:36 PM

Aren't all the stallions graded against each other though? Sort of like a bell curve? Meaning a stallion may score very high in a 100dt with average performing stallions but lower if he went to a test that had some really steller individuals.

Yes, and if true what we are hearing about THIS testing, some stallions will fail that would have passed in another testing. This is the stradegy used in Europe to send a stallion to a testing that there are lower stallions, to elevate some. We do not have that option here.

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 14, 2007, 01:52 PM

Has anybody done a study to see how the horses that went through the US 100 day test did after the test. Performance career? Breeding career?

I looked up the winner of the last test on USEF's site. He was hard to find as he isn't recorded with them using the same name as he used in the test. He has NO USEF performance record in any division for 2003- to the present. I realize this doesn't always mean much as eventing results at the lower levels aren't always going to show up. But I do think preliminary and above would be on the USEF record.
I also looked at some of the other stallions that passed. Some do have performance careers, some seem to have disappeared.

I have no stake in the test but I'm just curious if it is still a relevant prediction of a stallion's future ability.

Would a study of how these stallions did post 100 day test be useful?

Silver Sport Horses

Sep. 14, 2007, 02:22 PM

szipi -
If my math is correct, in 2004, at the time of the last testing, Gatsby was 5 years old. At the time of the 2002 100-day testing, he was a 3 YO. He had plenty of opportunity to go.

All Bill is saying by his previous statement is it would best if people would inquired to the stallion owner about why he hadn't been at the earlier testings before you start passing judgement. Bill and Lori did not own Gatsby when the other testings were happening and so could not send him.

Best of luck to all the stallion and owners! You are all brave souls!

Monique

misita

Sep. 18, 2007, 10:39 PM

Yes, and if true what we are hearing about THIS testing, some stallions will fail that would have passed in another testing. This is the stradegy used in Europe to send a stallion to a testing that there are lower stallions, to elevate some. We do not have that option here.

Where are you hearing that some stallions will fail this TEST of 2007 that would have passed in another testing? Am I missing something?
Chris

ahf

Sep. 18, 2007, 10:54 PM

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 19, 2007, 12:15 AM

Yes, with grading on a curve, if you have an exceptional group of stallions, some will score lower than they would have if a lesser group was entered, and not pass. If you happen to send your stallion to a testing with a group that does not do as well, a stallion that may have not passed with a different group, will get a higher score and pass.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 10:55 AM

That is what a lot of people don't understand. You can look at two different stallions that have the exact same score but their quality can differ widely just depending on what group of stallions they went through the test with.

arnika

Sep. 19, 2007, 11:27 AM

I have to say that I consider it extremely unfortunate that stallions are penalized for all being of excellent type and quality this testing. This not only deprives mare owners of the chance to have very good stallions available to them but also deprives the WB registries as a whole of very good examples of bloodlines to pass on their genetics. In a lower quality year, lesser examples of bloodlines are passed and allowed to contribute their genes.

I truly consider this an error in judgement to have this type of scoring method in the USA.

PS. Before I get slammed with the whole "the Europeans have done well with this system" and "warmbloods don't seem to have suffered from this method, they are still the premier sporthorses" arguments, I think that having 800 stallions to choose from there evens their result out differently from us. Also, I believe that WBs as a whole overcome the loss of talented individuals in Europe due to their sheer numbers there, unfortunately we don't have this option.

I wish our stallions were scored against an ideal, not each other due to our low numbers. This would increase the quality of stallions standing and the foals born quickly and efficiently.

ahf

Sep. 19, 2007, 11:50 AM

Ummmm….don’t agree. We are supposed to be improving with each generation. The reason the stallions are better as a whole than last time (and this is just my opinion they are better) is that in the intervening years we made better breeding decisions and our breeds as a whole progressed. That’s WHY…in the end…a bell curve works better than a “standard” which would constantly have to be tweaked. The bell curve tweaks itself.

This could, of course, be to my stallion’s detriment. But you shouldn’t be sending your stallion unless you believe in the concept.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 12:01 PM

Yes, the europeans have been very successful with this system because it allows them to bring high quality horses to the markeplace at a very competitve price. Unfortunately, that system is part of what is making it uncompetitive in our marketplace. If the europeans were faced with the same problems of logistics, $15,000 or so for testing, 6 hour trailer rides to approved foals, etc, would they change it? You betcha, they would. In a heartbeat.

As for the bell curve system, does anyone know if the 100 day testing done in europe back before they had the sheer numbers - like when the BWP was first starting up - was it on a bell curve or not?

misita

Sep. 19, 2007, 12:20 PM

I just know I'm going to be sorry for this....

Yes - that's what she means. From what I've seen, and you can make up your own mind this weekend when we are all there, this is an exceptional group of stallions this year.

Ergo, when you are grading essentially on a bell curve, some stallions that would likely have passed in previous testings, will not pass in this one.

I don't fully comprehend the math involved. For more info, contact Suzanne.

Well I have a stallion at the testing and he's THE youngest stallion there. And...he's been sick from the moment he got there, and unable to train, until last week. So they finally changed all his feed and bedding and he's had a miraculous recovery. But now he has to do the 100 day in 60 days. He not only was THE youngest horse there but most likely one of the greenest. So now he's behind the masses. Do I bring him home? If someone's going to fail, I'm sure he's at the top of the list. NOTHING to do with his quality. It's simply an impossible disadvantage for such a young horse.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 01:01 PM

Well, that is one of the problems with using a bell curve type system when we are also testing older stallions against younger stallions - they are scored based against each other and I don't care how much they take that into consideration, the older stallions are going to do better than the younger stallions.

misita, no matter what happens with your stallion, whether he scores well or he doen't, there is always going to be the question of because of his rough start, did he score well because they "forgave" too much? or did he not do well because they couldn't take enough of that into consideration? We won't know and the true value of the test for him, won't be clear.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 01:05 PM

risingstarfarm

Sep. 19, 2007, 01:40 PM

The BWP doesn't 100 dt - the stallions are expected to participate in several years of performance, specifically geared towards the young stallions - 4 year old, 5 year old, 6 year old, 7 year old cycles.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 19, 2007, 02:10 PM

Misita, this won't be popular, but it does need to be said, and it is something you should consider. The testing NEEDS a few stallions to score low, so the others can pass. When taking into account what is best for your stallion, know that YOU are the only one that truly has his best interests at heart. The goal for the people running the testing is the testing itself. Their goal may very well be in conflict with yours. They NEED to keep ALL the stallions there - both ones doing well, AND ones struggling.

misita

Sep. 19, 2007, 03:05 PM

Bravo had a allergy to the feed. That's why he was sick for so long. Helmut Schrant took it upon himself to change all feed and bedding. Then he had a miraculous recovery. Then we got the allergy tests back that showed he was allergic to the feed. I'm just worried that he pass at all. I do feel like they're taking good care of him. But being so far behind, if he does pass, his scored will probably be terrible. and the scores stay with him forever. But because of the expense and distance, if he can pass at all, he should probably stay. I guess I'll know more this weekend in Ohio.

www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 03:52 PM

Fairview, I think that is a very fair assessment.

Misita, I really feel for you and what you must be going through.

Edited to add, maybe he will really start going well at the test and perform like a champ at the final scoring.

Personally, though, if a horse isn't/hasn't done the "100 days" of the 100 day test, I am not quite sure how that stacks up against the others who have done the gruelling full 100 days. Does it help him or hinder him?? So many don't hold up because it is 100 days of hard work - so then how do you compare stallions - one that does 60 days against one that does 100 days???

Edgar

Sep. 19, 2007, 04:40 PM

A few things here because mis-information and half truths are not things Chris needs to worry about on top of her horses health and training status.

Darlyn it is absolutely not true that a few stallions in the test need to score low for others to pass. That is a rediculous statement. It could theoretically happen that all stallions pass and none score under 90 points.

What I think you were refering to is that on a bell curve in order for a high scoring stallion (meaning; a stallion with high individual scores) to have a high index as end result low scores from other stallions will push up the index on the high end in a bell curve. If its a uniform group they could score close together and you would not see extreme highs or lows.

The calculation of this current test is based on the average of prior tests as all the prior tests scores are in the test program database and keeps the variation in scores from being too much different from year to year.

Yes, it is true and obvious that it would not be fair for instance to compare Fuerst Gotthard's test index from the first US test over 20 years ago with the reserve champion of this years test. However, if you looked at the individual scores you will find a very similar patern. I know breeders do often not take the age difference into consideration when looking at scores and comparing stallions but it should be pretty obvious that after 10-15 years the test scores should not be much of a consideration anymore to breed to a certain stallion. If by then the offspring have not shown you what you are looking for you should probably move on.

Lastly, the stallions are scored agains an ideal on all their individual scores. It would be pretty silly for mare owners not to consider the individual scoring along with the index which only shows their standing amongst the tested group and makes for good ads if they are high.

Sonesta

Sep. 19, 2007, 05:14 PM

Well said, Edgar!

misita

Sep. 19, 2007, 05:24 PM

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 19, 2007, 05:53 PM

If there is a stallion that scores fairly high, there will be a stallion that scores very low. That IS a bell curve. Each testing there have been stallions that have not scored high enough for Approval. Yes, it is possible for all to pass, but that is extremely remote, and ALL would have to be VERY close in scores. If your stallion is not keeping up to be equal with the rest, his low score will elevate the top one using the bell curve.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 19, 2007, 05:56 PM

It could theoretically happen that all stallions pass and none score under 90 points.

Isn't the Oldenburg required score lower? 80? Westfalen? RHPSI?

DownYonder

Sep. 19, 2007, 06:09 PM

ahf, I agree with you to the point of testing all THREE year olds with an odd immature 4 year old thrown in. I don't agree with you with the way it is implemented in the U.S. where you have 7,8 year olds bell curving against 3 year olds. THAT is NOT the european system, so we really aren't using their system anyways.

This isn't quite correct. There are very frequently older horses at the German testings. At Sure Hit's test in 2003, for instance, there was one 6 y/o, 4 5-y/o's, and 6 4-y/o's. The winner was age 4, the 2nd placed horse was age 5, and the 3rd placed horse was age 6.

I also just did a spot check of some other testings:

Neustedt-Dosse - 4/14/05, places 1 and 5-6 went to 6 y/o horses, places 2 - 4 went to 4 y/o horses
6 6-y/o
3 5-y/o
10 4-y/o
0 3-y/o (to be expected that early in the year)

Neustedt-Dosse - 10/5/05, places 1 and 5-6 went to 6 y/o horses, places 2 - 4 went to 4 y/o horses.
5 5-y/o
15 4-y/o
13 3-y/o

I didn't look at all the 2006 tests, but did see that there was an 8 y/o at one of the 2006 Neustedt-Dosse tests (finished 33rd).

There are two 6 y/o's at the Warendorf test right now.

flshgordon

Sep. 19, 2007, 06:13 PM

When taking into account what is best for your stallion, know that YOU are the only one that truly has his best interests at heart. The goal for the people running the testing is the testing itself. Their goal may very well be in conflict with yours. They NEED to keep ALL the stallions there - both ones doing well, AND ones struggling.

oh for heavens sake.....are you and SZIPI each other's schizophrenic twins?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Don't put words in someone's mouth about whose interests they are keeping in mind and what they need to do. I wish some of you would crawl back under your rock....

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 19, 2007, 06:30 PM

not again

Sep. 19, 2007, 06:36 PM

Is the testing an LLC or a 501-c-3? Does it have an incorporated board of directors? Does it issue financial statements or have a board of governance, i.e. code of conduct as per the USEF for officials? Is there a written standard regarding this "bell curve" for public information?

Sonesta

Sep. 19, 2007, 06:53 PM

I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that when you sign your stallion up for the testing and he passes the initial vetting, you may not withdraw him without permission of the testing officials. This is to prevent people from withdrawing a horse just because they don't think he is going to pass. The SOs know this going in.

Legitimate reasons for withdrawal would be injury or illness. And one was sent home from a testing several years ago because he was just plain dangerous.

But you don't get to just pull out because you don't want to be the low score. That wouldn't be fair to the other stallions.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 06:59 PM

Downyonder, you list a couple of tests from 2 years ago. It is my understanding that there are multiple tests happening fairly frequently every single year and the bulk of those stallions are 3 and 4 year olds.

notagain, I have asked several times for clarification of the organization that owns the test here in the U.S and that information has been refused.

I believe that several here have also asked for clarification and the formula for the testing scores and that has also been refused - though if someone has it, maybe they would share it here??

All that makes it kind of hard to know what is truth or "half truth" as Edgar puts it - all of us middle aged busy bodies should just take their word, I suppose.....now if this was in the real business world, so many would be crying foul, we'd all be hoarse! (no pun intended!)

Edgar

Sep. 19, 2007, 07:00 PM

Edgar

Sep. 19, 2007, 07:12 PM

Poor Tri, who did you ask the local mailman? Oh no, off course, you expect official answers when posting stupid questions on an entertaining BB.
Your post shows just how ignorant you are on this subject and yet you claim to be the major improvement in the test. The testing is a LLC owned by the AHS and ISR. You can call them for more info.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 07:33 PM

Poor Edgar, resorting to name calling and personal attacks yet again when asked to support your statements??? If you don't like what is posted on "entertaining forums", why are you here?
Why does anyone questioning the almighty gods of the testing bring about that much anger??

Why not just be forthcoming with information?

BTW, can you tell me the official name of the LLC and what state it is in? You know, if that isn't too stupid of a question for you to lower yourself to answer? You see, when calling EB directly, he didn't want to answer those kinds of stupid questions either. He was far to busy trying to get stallion owners to pay him for pre-100 day test training of the stallions that he would then judge for the testing to be bothered.

Sonesta

Sep. 19, 2007, 07:52 PM

BTW, can you tell me the official name of the LLC and what state it is in? You know, if that isn't too stupid of a question for you to lower yourself to answer? You see, when calling EB directly, he didn't want to answer those kinds of stupid questions either. He was far to busy trying to get stallion owners to pay him for pre-100 day test training of the stallions that he would then judge for the testing to be bothered.

Kathy Stover (aka "tri"), as you very well know, EB has NOTHING to do with the judging of the stallions. You may want to edit your post. If I were EB, I'd be contacting a lawyer about your slander right about now.

I'm thinking we've all had just about enough of you.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:06 PM

Oh GOD, more threats of lawsuits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sonesta, this is a cut and paste directly from the Federation's investigation:

"EB and other ISR/Old directors are on the inspection committees approving stallions into the testing. ISR/Old officers are responsible for 65% of the scoring. EB and other ISR/Old directors subsequently grade the foals of these stallions for "premium" status. "Real or perceived," this scenario seems to lend itself to question and the possibility of biases. This would seem to be a conflict of interest.

The final scoring seems cloaked in mystery as being so complicated that only the chosen few, with a secret computer program, can determine the final scores. More than one stallion owner would like to see a copy of the computer program that determines the final scores.

It was alleged that, the night before the final placings were announced, there was quite a get-together in the dining room of the Paxton home between EB, HBJ, HS, and other ISR/Old directors at which time the scoring was discussed and how the horses would place. [Note this is an allegation and we did not speak to the source; however, it is representative of what one would NOT want to hear.] It would seem there should NEVER be any question as to the integrity of the scoring. To uphold the integrity of the testing and scoring, provide the stallion owners with a written score at mid-term."

Sonesta

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:10 PM

That's a far cry from what you posted above.

I can't decide if you really are an evil person or just incredibly obtuse. But it's time someone called you on your bullshit.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:11 PM

Also for Edgar's benefit, the Federation must have asked a stupid question to the mailman as well as this is what they put in their report:

"We would recommend that FST (or whatever it may come to be called) create its own web site that would CLEARLY articulate EXACTLY how the horses should be prepared for the testing, how they will be ridden at the testing, how they will be cared for at the testing, how the scoring is done, what owners should expect to see (or not see) the final three days,"

Notice how they call the testing organization "whatever it may come to be called". Did it ever "come to be called" something official? Or is that a secret too?

flshgordon

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:14 PM

flashgordon, maybe you need a better understanding of how it works.

They keep saying they need a minimum number of stallions to make the numbers work, and that is WHY they don't want to tell owners their stallion may not make it during the testing. They don't want stallion owners pulling their boys.

And YOU along with your coven need to quit spouting this crap over and over when it's obvious to the world that you just want everyone to turn away from the testing in general since you don't support it.

As someone else said.....they can't just have everyone go in and say "oh my little poopsie isn't doing well I think I'll just pull him out".

Don't you dare talk down to me like I need to "understand how it works"....like I need that information from the likes of you! :rolleyes:

I'm done responding to this stupidity. I don't want this to get shut down just because I can't tolerate some of the twits that post their mindless, self serving drivel here.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:15 PM

Sonesta are you denying that the folks running the 100 day testing also hired themselves out to "pre-train" for a fee the very stallions that they would be judging at the test?? I know for a fact that they did do that. Why is discussing that a problem for you? I think it creates a terrible image. If you don't, you just have a different set of moral standards than I do but is that a reason to personally attack me or anyone who dare speaks about it?

Sonesta

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:17 PM

You claimed EB did that. Read your own post. That is flatly not true.

Oh, yes. And YOU should lecture anyone on morals??? Wanna tell us all just how much money you scammed off those poor folks who bought ads and subscriptions to your non-existant magazine? Get over yourself. You have NO credibility. You could be ignored except for concern about the poor newbie that gets sucked in by your venom.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:17 PM

Yes, fishgordon, I think you are very much trying to get it shut down. I don't think anyone here has advocated pulling out a stallion for those reasons so where the heck is that coming from unless you just want the discussion and the questions to go away??!

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:24 PM

Sonesta, No, the Federation report states: "ISR/Old officers are responsible for 65% of the scoring"

"there was quite a get-together in the dining room of the Paxton home between EB, HBJ, HS, and other ISR/Old directors at which time the scoring was discussed and how the horses would place."

Sonesta, why are you so angry? Why can't you discuss the facts? This is directly from the Federation's report. I don't know what the heck you are talking about with all of your tirade, but you are becoming increasingly shrill and the old saying of, "methinks the lady doth protest too much" very much comes to mind.

Sonesta

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:25 PM

My GOD, Stover, can you just STOP quoting a few words out of context? The investigation letter said clearly that this "gathering" was when all the scores were being entered into the computer and everyone was there to make sure that no numbers were changed. The investigator only mentioned that someone had told them that it could have, mistakenly, been interpreted as monkey business and that they should be very mindful of any appearance of impropriety.

How you can take this and make it sound like they were actually fixing scores makes me sick.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:25 PM

No Fairview, you need to stop posting the nonsense you assume because you are not helping anybody with that. I thought you were smarter and more sincere than that.

In order to keep the test breaking even and not charge more than $8000 per stallion it needs a certain number of participants. They have plenty pareticipation this test.

As Downyonder points out, too many posters are spouting out mis-information to serve their own cause. It is sad to see posters can not move on and stay current with what is happening. It is sad to see the efforts to tear down a venue that is quite important to some here that actually have a stallion in it.

Edgar and flshgordon, it is not my nonsense/crap. I am just repeating an ISR Board member's post. Maybe you should let her know that information is not correct, instead of calling me names.

FIRST FACT: There is a minimum NUMBER of stallions required to run a 100 Day test for the scoring procedure that's used. The US 100 Day test is the same as the system in Europe and you can't run it with just a few stallions.

Sonesta

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:31 PM

For my sanity, I have just put tri on "ignore." She seems to enjoy her lies so much that she has begun to actually make me want to shoot my computer screen. Her comments should be judged against her character and credibility. That is all.

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:32 PM

Darlyn, is Ilona your mailman too!!!!!! Do you have a mailman with the initials EB as well? What a coincidence!

Seriously, though, it is a problem with Ilona. She has posted quite a bit of information here identifying her position as a board member of the ISR. I guess we need to be "smarter" and figure out which board member, from which occasion, from which day of the week, month of the year to gather information from!!!

tri

Sep. 19, 2007, 08:36 PM

Ok, we have had more threats of lawsuits and now, the ignore it and maybe it will go away mentality! par for the course.

enavant

Sep. 19, 2007, 09:37 PM

I have ignored this post for a while but, anyone who attacks such an upstanding member of the breeding circuit as Edgar is just an uneducated stirrer of you know what!!! I think you are taking marketing lessons from Carl Rove!!!

Edgar

Sep. 19, 2007, 10:16 PM

Ursula, you're a sweetheart! I wish you great fun at the Testing/clinic!

Fairview, just because you quote somebody from the net does not mean you have the right to blame the testing for holding on to a stallion, you have no knowledge of that situation, that is pretty sick thinking.

Tri, it must be your sparkling personality that gets you none of the answers????

Chris, I am sure you have found that this discussion reflects the wild phantasy of some who don't like the stallion test and use outdated information, pull things out of context and make up what they do not know, God bless them too!

For serious questions call the AHS or ISR, its all available to the members.
Now back to my meatloaf....

Touchstone Farm

Sep. 19, 2007, 10:17 PM

Well I have a stallion at the testing and he's THE youngest stallion there. And...he's been sick from the moment he got there, and unable to train, until last week. So they finally changed all his feed and bedding and he's had a miraculous recovery. But now he has to do the 100 day in 60 days. He not only was THE youngest horse there but most likely one of the greenest. So now he's behind the masses. Do I bring him home? If someone's going to fail, I'm sure he's at the top of the list. NOTHING to do with his quality. It's simply an impossible disadvantage for such a young horse.

Misita, don't get yourself worked up based on some ignorant posts. Granted, I have never owned a stallion and probably never will, but...from what I understand from people who are knowledgeable and credible, just because a stallion is young and perhaps lost some days, doesn't mean he will place at the bottom. He could win! Conversely, just because a stallion is older and has more training, doesn't mean he's going to win the test by a landslide, by a nose or even place in the top three. Training does not equal talent and ability.

I wish you well. I'm sure you are as nervous as any stallion owner, but if your guy is truly a talented stallion, I'm sure he will do fine. (Easy for me to say. I'm just a mare owner!!!)

There are some very ignorant, nasty posts on here. Just search on their names, and you will find other topics that you will see their opinions on and realize they should be ignored!!! (Edgar, for example, is not one of them! :-) He's a good one!) Good luck.

ahf

Sep. 19, 2007, 10:52 PM

Good Lord…ISR officials certainly decide who gets a provisional license for their registry. What??? You want KWPN or Belgian officials deciding who gets provisionally licensed into the ISR/OLD registry? Will you share some of what you are smoking? As do AHS officials get to decide who THEY provisionally license for THEIR registry. No kidding Sherlock. As an AHS member I wouldn’t have it any other way. And provisionally licensed stallions from any registry do get “priority” for the test., which is pretty laughable, as the test has never been so full that a non-licensed stallion could not get in if they paid their money, the same fees as everyone else who actually went through the licensing process.

(they pay less $ actually, as they didn’t have to go through the licensing, and the radiograph evals by a panel of vets from Rood & Riddle, before they were even permitted to attend the licensing, and the drug screen pulled 10 nanoseconds after the licensing results (Christ – my stallion wasn’t even back in his stall, and still had his neck-sash on before the vet was standing there with a needle poised for his jugular for the drug screen), and the vetting and flexions after the licensing.. all of which costs money). Wouldn’t it be great if we got to the point where those provisionally licensed stallions were so many they actually bumped the autlander that just showed up and wrote a check? Don’t’ see it happening.

As far as pre-test training….were you not the very same person that DEMANDED on this very same board not 5 months ago what stallion owners were dong to prepare their stallions since lack of preparation was a problem in the past? You pretty much got chirping crickets on that query.

I remember at the time that I felt what I was doing to prep my stallion with the trainer who had housed him from the time he was weaned was NONE of your business whatsoever, that I’ll be damned if I even thought about responding, and that it was quite the arrogant post from someone who basically does not support the concept of Euro breed registries in the first place. After all, we are all “just Quasi-Warmblood European Triangle Trotters”….and now you know what the QWETT in my sig line stands for…

I would encourage whatever registry you are involved in to step up to the plate and get involved with the test. God knows, I’d rather my registry’s staff spend their time on a more extensive fall inspection tour than breast-feeding a 100dt. But if that’s what it takes….

Anyway...y'all have at it. I'm off to Ohio.

misita

Sep. 19, 2007, 11:21 PM

Thank you all for your positive input on my stallion's possiblity to pass this test. I'm just going to relax, and go to the mid-terms to see where he's at and how he's doing. Then I'll have a better idea of facts rather than my own wild speculations running through my head.
Chris Misita
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 19, 2007, 11:43 PM

Edgar, I have not blamed anyone for holding a stallion. I have just posted what has been said by several board members on different threads over the past few years. Are you saying it has changed and they now encourage a stallion that is not doing well to be removed?

Edgar

Sep. 19, 2007, 11:58 PM

that is WHY they don't want to tell owners their stallion may not make it during the testing. They don't want stallion owners pulling their boys.
Darlyn

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 20, 2007, 12:01 AM

Edgar, that is exactly what a Board member said on a previous thread. We were discussing why they do not update owners thruout the testing to tell them if their stallion is having major issues.

Edgar

Sep. 20, 2007, 12:54 AM

Wherever you got that idea, its wrong because obviously Chris knows very well what is going on with her stallion and she lives here in California. We are trying to make sure communication is good with the stallion owners and that seems to be working just fine as you can see. Next she will see her stallion at the test and verify what she has been told and discuss him with the trainers.

Vineyard Eventing

Sep. 20, 2007, 01:23 AM

I have a stallion at the testing, and so far have been very happy with the care and response from the TD. He always calls me back when I call to check up on things. Yes, he is vauge, but I feel that is probably due to a couple things, one being that he only is responsible for 50% of his score, and doesn't want to get my hopes up or down by telling me he's doing great or being horrible. Also, he, like everyone else, does't know what the final outcome will be. Maybe my stallion will be a star for 97 days and buck everyone off the final 3 days. Who knows?!

But the main reason I'm posting... does anyone have a link to the federation's findings from the last test? I've tried to find it, but have been unable to.

Also, in response to "some stallions have to fail in order for others to pass" is not exactly accurate to the way I understand the test. I guess correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is the test is NOT a pass/fail situation. The stallions simply get tested and given a score. The pass/fail situation doesn't come into play until you get to your registry. In other words, if my stallion scores a 105 at the testing, he would "pass" for Hanoverian (90 pts required) Oldenburg (80 pts required) Westphalin (70 pts required) but would not pass for Dutch who requires 110 pts, or Holsteiner. So it's not really that stallions have to fail for others to pass, it's that some will score low due to high scores or score high due to low scores. It can go both ways to the way I understand it.

I guess my last question would be, did the people who are posting negative comments about the test have stallions that went through the test in either 2002 or 2004? I guess I specifically mean Tri, as she seems to be the most vocal about the test. If Tri had a horse go through the test, I will be very concerned about her comments. If not, then I don't know how much credence to give the comments, as the closeness to which she was involved just wouldn't be there. Not saying anything bad about you Tri at all! Just trying to regulate my own personal STRESS LEVEL with my baby who is just too many miles away!!!!!!! :)

Sonesta

Sep. 20, 2007, 08:50 AM

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum...ad.php?t=31197
on page 7 of which is a copy of the letter from the investigation.

misita

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:10 AM

Now Vineyard Eventing, I doubt your gentleman of a stallion is going to buck everybody off during the last 3 days. He'll shine like a star! But I know someone who might lose a rider or 2....Or, toss a couple over a fence! But I'm not telling who it is!

Chris Misita
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

DownYonder

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:25 AM

Tri, this was your original comment.

“ahf, I agree with you to the point of testing all THREE year olds with an odd immature 4 year old thrown in. I don't agree with you with the way it is implemented in the U.S. where you have 7,8 year olds bell curving against 3 year olds. THAT is NOT the european system, so we really aren't using their system anyways.”

My reply was to point out that the German testings are not just filled with “all three year olds with an odd immature 4 year old thrown in”. Once again, older stallions are fairly common at the German testings.

And since you seem to think that my figures aren’t worth considering because they are several years old, once again – there was an 8 y/o at last year’s Neustedt-Dosse test (who finished 33rd, proving that the older stallions don’t always trump the youngsters), there are two 6 y/o’s at the Warendorf test right now, and there were two 5 y/o’s at the Münster-Handorf test that concluded on 8/9/07.

Was the system designed to primarily test 3 and 4 y/o’s? Yes, of course it was, and I will agree that the majority of the stallions at the German testings are in those age brackets. But, as I pointed out above, there are often older stallions at those testings. I think this may be especially true since since they changed the performance requirements to allow stallions to skip the 70DT if they qualify for the Bundeschampionat. We are now seeing many young stallions go the Bundeschampionat route, and some older stallions whose owners hoped they would go the Bundeschampionat route (but didn’t due to injury, training set-backs, lack of qualifying scores, etc.) end up attending the 70 DT at age 5, 6, 7, even 8.

And you know as well as anyone that the reason we don’t implement multiple annual testing sites here is because there aren’t enough young stallions to make even ONE yearly test a financially viable event – not to mention multiple annual testings. I would LOVE to see multiple annual testings scattered around the country – and run by different groups - but it certainly isn’t going to happen any time soon. Like it or not, the testing run by the LLC set up by AHS and ISR is the only one we have got right now, so we better all hope this one is a huge success and free of the controversy that has plagued past testings. I for one am very thankful that past problems were brought to light in such a public manner, because it forced AHS to take a more active role in overseeing the “goings-on”. I am now cautiously optimistic about the future of stallion testing in this country, whereas before I was quite pessimistic about it.

And to everyone who has a stallion at this testing – huge kudos to you for taking the leap of faith. I wish you and your boys much success!

arnika

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:37 AM

Nice post, DownYonder.
Thank you for the info.:)

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:39 AM

The communication changes sound like they are working nicely. Chris - hope your boy develops nicely and catches up now that his feed has been changed. Did you say he was a 3 year old?

misita

Sep. 20, 2007, 09:49 AM

The communication changes sound like they are working nicely. Chris - hope your boy develops nicely and catches up now that his feed has been changed. Did you say he was a 3 year old?

The communications are working nicely and I have been in constand contact with Helmut Schrant, EB, and DR. Strosnider. He is barely 3. I hope he come's along nicely now too that he's (hopefully, we will see) past his feed allergies. Thank you for the encouragement. Now, I'm off to catch a plane for Ohio.

SGray

Sep. 20, 2007, 10:06 AM

"Lastly, the stallions are scored agains an ideal on all their individual scores. It would be pretty silly for mare owners not to consider the individual scoring along with the index which only shows their standing amongst the tested group and makes for good ads if they are high.
__________________
Edgar"

I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that when you sign your stallion up for the testing and he passes the initial vetting, you may not withdraw him without permission of the testing officials. This is to prevent people from withdrawing a horse just because they don't think he is going to pass. The SOs know this going in.

Legitimate reasons for withdrawal would be injury or illness. And one was sent home from a testing several years ago because he was just plain dangerous.

But you don't get to just pull out because you don't want to be the low score. That wouldn't be fair to the other stallions.

if they are graded against an ideal - what is the problem?

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 10:58 AM

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 20, 2007, 11:00 AM

He is barely 3.

Idocus was barely 3 when he won the testing. I believe he was a July foal. 3 year olds are usually such "blank slates" and have totally open minds, so IMO they are super easy to train. They seem to take to things like ducks to water, so that may actually be an avantage trying to catch up.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 20, 2007, 11:03 AM

I'm wondering why information about how the scoring works can't be provided. Is that because nobody understands it or is that because it's a 'secret'.
Wouldn't a complete explanation make the process transparent? Otherwise why should a buyer put any value on the test scores?

This is one of the issues so passionately discussed in the old threads. I believe one poster took the numbers from several testings and worked backwards to see the "system".

not again

Sep. 20, 2007, 11:28 AM

Transparency is the big issue in stallion testing, just like in dressage judging nationally and internationally. In order to maintain credibility in any opinion-based activity, transparency must exist in order to establish value and order. If a horse number 1 receives a 71% and horse number 2 receives a 70.5% and horse number 3 a 67.5%, the order, spread and range must all be evaluated for the numbers to have meaning in relation to each other, and to make sense to those receiving them.

Edgar

Sep. 20, 2007, 11:58 AM

DownYonder

Sep. 20, 2007, 12:08 PM

Edgar, do you know if Suzanne Quarles will be "in the room" after the testing as scores are tabulated?

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 12:11 PM

The stallions all have scores and those get put in a program and it calculated the index. If it was manipulated and the stallions with lower scores got undeservedly the higher index it would become obvious. Scores are anounced after the test. Of all registries the ISR is the one who publicises the test scores on all their stallions annually. That is as transparent as it gets.

I don't think anything I posted even hinted that the scores were being manipulated. I simply want to understand what the scores mean and how they are calculated. If that information can't be provided then I can't see what value there is in the test.

I understand that the performance route can be more expensive than the 100 day route and that would make the test a better choice for an approval earlier in the stallion's career. But at least in the Hunter world there are lots of succcessful breeding stallions who never went through the test.

So why is the 'formula' not disclosed?

SGray

Sep. 20, 2007, 12:20 PM

......SGray - as far as stallions leaving before the end, it has nothing to do with scoring against an ideal, it has to do with evading low test results and I guess how fair that is could be debatable but in my opinion it would make a test far less valuable.

I understand that aspect -- I was just questioning the assertion that a stallion bowing out of the testing, for whatever reason, would be unfair to the other stallions as in the statement below

"But you don't get to just pull out because you don't want to be the low score. That wouldn't be fair to the other stallions."

in the scheme of things - as long as at least the minimum score for their registry is achieved - how the rankings are for a particular testing cycle will be a rather short-lived method of judging the stallions' worthiness - quickly superceded by the qualities of his offspring

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 20, 2007, 12:29 PM

A low scoring stallion bowing out of the testing could make another stallion score too low for approval, that may have been approved if that low scoring stallion stayed to get a score.

SGray

Sep. 20, 2007, 12:36 PM

A low scoring stallion bowing out of the testing could make another stallion score too low for approval, that may have been approved if that low scoring stallion stayed to get a score.

okay - that's the part I don't understand - I thought that this could affect rankings but not score

Edgar

Sep. 20, 2007, 12:45 PM

There is an explanation on how they are scored , I believe its in the ISR directory. I am not a computer wiz so I do not know what the software does exactly to come up with an index other than it involves prior test results in a certain formula so that there is not a big swing from test to test. This program has been used for 100's of tests and is the gold standard for German breeding programs. The input of the well publicised numbers takes a while because each stallion has about 16 scores and to avoid mistakes it has to be put in multiple times the same way. In the past a German Hanoverian judge or several judges of the final day's have been present during this input like Manfred Lopp but I do not know if Suzanne will be.

Vineyard Eventing

Sep. 20, 2007, 12:49 PM

Suzanne Quarrels sat and explained to me on the first day of the 100 day test, how the scoring system worked. I "think" I understood it for the most part, and here's what I came away with, for what it's worth....

The first 50% of the stallions score comes from the TD from the first 97 days of the test. According to Helmut, the training riders and he meet every day or at a minimum of every other day, to discuss the stallions performance for each day, and assign scores for each stallion for each day. At the end of the test, they average out each stallions individual score for each scoring part (i.e. jumping, gaits, temperament). They may or will throw out any anomalies in their scores. For instance, if the stallion is usually a 9 on temperament, but had a day where they scored a 5, they may throw that out as out of the norm for the stallion.

The other 50% is scored by the test riders on the final 3 days of the testing.

At the end, each stallion's scores are totaled and the middle stallion (for instance, if there are 15 stallions, the stallion that scored in 7th place) would be given 100 points. The other stallions have their scores adjusted accordingly to that middle scoring stallion, so their scores may be raised or lowered depending on what that middle stallion's score was.

According to Suzanne, they need approximately 60 stallions to make the scoring fair and work correctly. In order to get this base, they use the scores from the two previous tests at least.

Now, what I am not 100% clear on, is if they use the raw scores of the stallions from previous test to get their scores from this test, but logic would say they must. So they take the 60-ish group of stallions and put 50% of them above 100 points and 50% of them below 100 points. The other item I am not 100% clear on, is if the middle stallion, say, scored an 80 and they had to add 20 points to his score to get 100 points, do they then give ALL the stallions 20 points or does the lowest point stallion have to be equally under 100 points as the highest point stallion is above it? I don't think that's the case, but is a question I plan to ask this weekend.

So, if this is indeed a stellar group of stallions as everyone is saying (wouldn't I just be oh so lucky to have my stallion end up in a group of "stellar" stallions... couldn't he be in a mediocre group so he looks better??? :) ) But if this group is particularly nice, then in theory, the majority of them can exceed that 100 point mark and almost all stallions in the group could score pretty high.

Just trying to put my seriously lay-mans understanding of the scoring system in words to hopefully explain the system as I understand it....

tri

Sep. 20, 2007, 01:02 PM

"I have ignored this post for a while but, anyone who attacks such an upstanding member of the breeding circuit as Edgar is just an uneducated stirrer of you know what!!!"

I don't believe anyone here, including me, has attacked Edgar - please provide an example. Edgar and Sonesta on the other hand have resorted to name calling, personal attacks, threats of lawsuits and more. Edgar and Sonesta are the attackers of those, including me who are trying to find answers and discuss issues regarding the original topic.

"As far as pre-test training….were you not the very same person that DEMANDED on this very same board not 5 months ago what stallion owners were dong to prepare their stallions"

Uhmm. No.

I think there has been a lot of discussion about some SOs not preparing very well that I might have made comment about but "demanded"? No. And I absolutely do not think that anyone connected with scoring, running, owning the 100 day test should also prior to the test, hire themselves out to train those very same stallions for the sole intent of "prepping" them for the test! Don't know of any credible person who would agree with that kind of thing - it just smells bad, very bad. Sort of like you know you are going to a big horse show and you get the judge at the show to train you/your horse the month right before.

Downyonder, we are much in agreement. You posted: "Was the system designed to primarily test 3 and 4 y/o’s? Yes, of course it was, and I will agree that the majority of the stallions at the German testings are in those age brackets."

That is the point - yes there may be some older stallions testing in europe but they are competing against a LARGE field of 3 and 4 year olds - think bell curve again - if they have 1 or 2 older stallions against a large field of 3/4 year olds, their impact will not be so great. In the U.S. version of the test, we have 1 or 2 (or more) older stallions against a very SMALL field of younger stallions. Obviously the bell curve effect will be greater.

"And you know as well as anyone that the reason we don’t implement multiple annual testing sites here is because there aren’t enough young stallions to make even ONE yearly test a financially viable event – not to mention multiple annual testings. I would LOVE to see multiple annual testings scattered around the country – and run by different groups"

Yes, agreed. American breeders are stuck with a system that works very well in europe but doesn't work very well in America and by continuing along this path, we are saying we can't improve our methods of grading young stock, approving stallions and thus become more and more uncompetitive in the marketplace - this just goes back to the question "is this the best way to build a sporthorse industry in the U.S.?"

LavenderFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 01:12 PM

What I would find really interesting would be a chronological listing of ALL stallions that have passed in ALL the US testings - name / pedigree / score / year of testing.

As I think these US tests now go back nearly 20 years (?) we should be able to then look at what these tested / passed stallions have produced in sport. Obviously, would not apply for the more recent testings where the offspring are not old enough to be really competing yet.

The results would answer, to some extent, the question as to whether or not the stallions going / passing are indeed proving to be prepotent sires. Of course I realize that many other factors are involved (such as was the stallion well-promoted and thus well-booked after testing, did he get the really good mares, did the resulting offspring receive benefit of good training, etc.)

Maybe this also could be looked at from the perspective of which of these stallions (from the earlier testings) have now proven to be good broodmare sires.

Does anyone know where a complete listing of all US tested / passed stallions could be found?

Bent Hickory

Sep. 20, 2007, 01:49 PM

Edgar and Sonesta on the other hand have resorted to ... threats of lawsuits and more.

Tri: For the record, neither Sonesta nor Edgar threatened a lawsuit. Go back and actually read what was written. Your subsequent statements above suggest otherwise and inaccurately and unfairly reflect their precise words. I, for one, won't stand silently by to watch you twist the words of either of these fine folks.

This just goes back to the question "is this the best way to build a sporthorse industry in the U.S.?"

Again, as I and others have posted previously, GO FOR IT! Build a better system! If you're so convinced that there is a better way, then implement it. Show us! If it is better, you can bet people will follow you -- but only until you prove it to be better than what works VERY WELL for me. Until then, forgive me for not following you based on a promise of what might be ...

DownYonder

Sep. 20, 2007, 01:53 PM

American breeders are stuck with a system that works very well in europe but doesn't work very well in America and by continuing along this path, we are saying we can't improve our methods of grading young stock, approving stallions and thus become more and more uncompetitive in the marketplace - this just goes back to the question "is this the best way to build a sporthorse industry in the U.S.?"

Uh, surely you have seen the other posts where several people have stated that we have a "stellar" group of stallions at the testing this year. So apparently the system IS working here to help ensure that better stallions are going to the testing, and that they are better prepared. Sorry, but I think it is stupid to advocate "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" just because the system isn't PERFECT.

buschkn

Sep. 20, 2007, 02:50 PM

Ho hum. I am not even involved and I am getting bored with all the 100DT bashing. I am interested to see the new improved system miracle cure US sport horse solution, too, but until then I guess we'll keep watching the 100DT and see how it shakes out.

Also, this is a page with some good info for some people asking, including at least the percentages involved (not the actual system to extrapolate it out), and also the past winners/scores.

http://www.isroldenburg.org/?pid=tests_100%25dy%25stallion%25test

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 20, 2007, 02:56 PM

DownYonder

Sep. 20, 2007, 03:41 PM

In the past a German Hanoverian judge or several judges of the final day's have been present during this input like Manfred Lopp but I do not know if Suzanne will be.

I hope that she is. I think it would help to reassure folks that there isn't any hanky-panky going on with the scores behind closed doors.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 20, 2007, 03:44 PM

I hope that she is. I think it would help to reassure folks that there isn't any hanky-panky going on with the scores behind closed doors.

I totally agree.

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 05:05 PM

The posted link gives some past stallions and scores for the ISR run testings. Does anyone have a link to the results of the testing run by the AHS? 1989, 1991, 1993 etc

I know winners were Derringer, Maranjo, Idocus, Rio Grande, Dante Don't remember the order or years.

1998 Paxton Farm, OH Helmut Schrant 20 Stallions
Champion Puerto D'Azur Belgian Warmblood 132.23 points
Reserve Amour Holsteiner 127.85 points
1996 Rancho Murieta, CA Rudy Leone 14 Stallions
Champion Amor Reto Hanoverian 133.75 points
Reserve Sandro's Song Oldenburg 129.14 points
1995 November Hill Farm, VA Gerd Zuther 9 Stallions
Champion Dante* Hanoverian 128.98 points
Reserve Merlin* Hanoverian 127.41 points
1994 Kentucky Horse Park, KY Dietrich Felgendreher 16 Stallions
Champion Flambou Oldenburg 126 .54 points
Reserve Jupiter Oldenburg 126.08 points
1993 November Hill Farm, VA Gerd Zuther 18 Stallions
Champion Idocus Dutch 131.12 points
Reserve Wallstreet Kid* Hanoverian 122.07 points
1992 Rancho Murieta, CA Rudy Leone 20 Stallions
Champion Le Champion Oldenburg 13 8.15 points
Reserve Gallarius Dutch 133.04 points
1991 November Hill Farm, VA Gerd Zuther 14 Stallions
Champion Rio Grande* Hanoverian 13 5.39 points
Reserve Bordeaux* Hanoverian 130.13 points
1990 Rancho Murieta, CA Rudy Leone 16 Stallions
Champion Tallison Hanoverian 133.72 points
Reserve Page Nine Thoroughbred 119.85 points
1989 November Hill Farm, VA Gerd Zuther 10 Stallions
Champion Derringer* Hanoverian 13 2.07 points
Reserve Walter Scott* Hanoverian 130.38 points
1988 Rancho Murieta, CA Eugen Wahler 18 Stallions
Champion Frohwind Oldenburg 137.54 points
Reserve Donavan* Hanoverian 136.16 points
1987 November Hill Farm, VA Gerd Zuther 16 Stallions
Champion Maronjo* Hanoverian 138. 06 points
Reserve Almaden Hanoverian 133.24 points
1986 Culpepper, VA Horst Karsten 12 Stallions
Champion Traumtänzer Oldenburg 138.31 points
Reserve Fuerst Gotthard* Oldenburg 132

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 20, 2007, 05:12 PM

Thanks PTF, that is excellent!

LavenderFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 05:36 PM

Thanks, bushkn for the link and PineTree for the listing.

I find it very interesting that a TB was reserve champion in 1990 and must admit I have never heard of this horse. Did he go on to have a performance career? Any offspring?

Several of the stallions listed are “familiar” to me. I think Fuerst Gotthard is Edgar’s? Has produced some good jumpers?

From the Champion / Reserve horses (and I would still be interested to see a listing of all stallions that have passed over the years), are any on leading sires lists for any discipline? Any sired international winners? Any with GP dressage or jumper offspring? Any with advanced eventers? Any sired Working Hunter champions? Any proven to be outstanding broodmare sires?

It would be a lot of work to delve into a complete listing (as it must total quite a number of horses that have passed the testing over the years) and their competing offspring. But it might be interesting to prove that what we are doing “on this side of the pond” is working out for us.

Thanks again.

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 05:42 PM

It would be a lot of work to delve into a complete listing (as it must total quite a number of horses that have passed the testing over the years) and their competing offspring. But it might be interesting to prove that what we are doing “on this side of the pond” is working out for us.

Thanks again.
I'm trying to make a complete list but am having trouble finding details of the earlier tests.

tri

Sep. 20, 2007, 06:41 PM

Bent Hickory, I see where you conveniently left out in your cut and paste, the part where Edgar and Sonesta resorted to name calling and personal attacks. Sonesta posting that a lawyer should be called is saying that I should be sued. That is a threat of a lawsuit, like it or not.

"Uh, surely you have seen the other posts where several people have stated that we have a "stellar" group of stallions at the testing this year. So apparently the system IS working here to help ensure that better stallions are going to the testing,'

I thought the goal was to breed international level sporthorses!!!!! You are judging the entire U.S. sporthorse industry by the stallions being tested - as proof of it doing well? I don't think that is the european system. As you pointed out, more of them are putting the stallions in some sort of competition versus testing. And what does the quality of the stallions testing have to do with bringing horses to the global market competively?

"Again, as I and others have posted previously, GO FOR IT! Build a better system! "

Don't you want a better system? Don't you want U.S. breeders to be more competitive in the global marketplace? Is that not a goal for you? Wouldn't you like to see sporthorse breeders pulling together and creating synergy in marketing/promotion, information, tracking, young horse training/competition, identifying talent and creating top horse/rider combinations? Or do you want the current system of chasing horses with ATVs and refusing information requests and being uncooperative with the Federation oversight?

Don't know why you think working with the system to change it for maximum success is "throwing it out with the bathwater". As we have seen, it took some getting tough with a few of the individuals to just get some of the changes for this test. But look at all the anger/threats/denials/etc it generated! Makes me wonder what exactly it is some of you have as an overall goal. Doesn't sound like it could be a goal for the overall good of the sporthorse industry! More like politics and power.

I can't wait to see the list of the past stallion winners, Pinetree

Edgar

Sep. 20, 2007, 08:10 PM

Tri , I did not call you anything, I told you you show ignorance on the subject. If this subject is so close to you that you call that personal then so be it. You are good at twisting things but again you come with the same old info and offer no progress.

Here is an idea, make a list of succesful breeding stallions that got approved in the US through performance with the registries that require 100 day testing as their standard approval method in the last 10 years. That may show something of a different avenue vs. testing.

Then lets have a discussion on what possible other ways are good selection mehods.

LavenderFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 10:18 PM

PineTree would be way better at this … and somewhat in response to Edgar’s last post …

Quick look at USEF leading sires for 2007, in the Jumpers (looking at top 50 only) … that I immediately recognize as North-American based stallions (not imported semen) … and I could easily be missing some:

#23 – OLISCO (SF) – approved in US on performance (deceased)

#25 – GUILTY CONSCIENCE (TB) – probably not “approved” with anyone

#33 – SOUTH PACIFIC (HOL) – Not sure, but approved here on performance? (deceased)

#45 – GALOUBET (SF) – approved in France on performance (deceased)

#49 – SABOTAGE (HOL) – approved here on performance?

In hunters (only looking up to #25):

#4 – ALL THE GOLD (HAN) – 100-day tested in Germany – placed 13 out of 25

#6 – ALLA CZAR (DWB) – 100-day here – placed 11 out of 12

#8 – RIO GRANDE (HAN) – Champion at 100-day in US

#12 – ABDULLAH (TK) – performance approved? (deceased)

#15 – SOUTH PACIFIC (HOL) – approved here on performance? (deceased)

16 – ARISTOS B (DWB) – Recently approved into the new DWB Hunter Breeding program (I think?) / not 100-day tested

#23 – PABLO (HAN) – Am I confusing him with Pablito???

Eventers – list is replete with American TB’s and Irish horses

Dressage – will leave this one to those who know better than I who is whom and from whence they hail and how approved, but I do notice Idocus at #8 – Champion of 100-day here (again remembering that this is the USEF list).

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 10:45 PM

Here's a list of TB stallions that have been in the top 75 of either the Hunter, Jumper or Eventer USEF sire lists from the period 2002-2006.
Anybody recognize any of these as being performance approved by any WB registry?

It's not going to format well but it's Stallion Name, Sire Name, Dam Name
and discipline (HJ is either or both Hunter, Jumper divisions, E = Eventer)
It's sorted by sire name.

ABLE ALBERT ABWAH POLLY PEACHUM E
EEDMUND BURKE ADVOCATOR SECTION E
PASS THE TAB AL HATTAB DANTINA HJ
OPPOSITE ABSTRACT ALYDAR K D PRINCESS HJ
ALYRAT ALYDAR DAVONA DALE E
ALYBRAVE ALYDAR BOLD N DETERMINED HJ
ALY DARK ALYDAR MOONLIGHT JIG HJ
ALYDARMER ALYDAR MERELY HJ
LANCASTER AVENUE ANNIHILATE EM WOLFSTREAM HJ
AARKING AUTHI AARBURG HJ
KESSEM BALMERINO ROCKABY BABY E
ROCK POINT BELIEVE IT MORNING WATCH HJ
NEVER BEND BETTER BEND AGAIN PAINTED MISSILE HJ
AYES TURN BEST TURN WINKING EYE E
HIGH BRITE BEST TURN SPRAY E
TURNBUCKLE BEST TURN FIRST SITTING E
JULIO MARINER BLAKENEY SET FREE HJ
RAHY BLUSHING GROOM GLORIOUS SONG HJ
DARING GROOM BLUSHING GROOM DARING STEP E
BE EVER SO BOLD BOLD DESTINY MILL HOSTESS HJ
LAUDANUM BORAN MONTA BELLA HJ
L'ENJOLEUR BUCKPASSER FANFRELUCHE E
POT D OR BUISSON D OR APPO HJ
BUCKFINDER BUSCKPASSER SHENANIGANS E
SHAAB BUSTED CHIEFTAN GIRL E
LOYAL PAL CARO SAILFAST HJ
GREAT DEAL CARO DESIREE E
TALDI CATALDI HOME LOVER HJ E
SAUNTER CHARLOTESVILLE PADELLA E
GILDED ROOSTER CHIEFTAN HAIL QUAIL E
CASTLE MAGIC CLAVIER PRIVILEGE HJ
TRICKY CREEK CLEVER TRICK BATTLE CREEK GIRL E
A LEE ROVER CONQUISTADOR CIELO AWARE E
GUILTY CONSCIENCE COURT RULING GRACEFULLY HJ
NIGHT MOVER CUTLASS CIRTALLAH HJ
HIGHLAND BLADE DAMASCUS MISTY BRYN HJ
HALLOWS EVE DAMASCUS SNAP APPLE E
MATCH WINNER DANCERS IMAGE MOSSTOWN E
THE PRIME MINISTER DEPUTY MINISTER STICK TO BEAUTY HJ
OUR DIPLOMAT DIPLOMAT WAY MS DIMAURO HJ
COOL NORTHERNER DOM ALARIC IMPERTURBABLE LADY HJ
DEMONS BEGONE ELOCUTIONIST ROWDY ANGEL E
MAGLOIRE EXCELLER LA DAME DU LAC HJ
OUR NATIVE EXCLUSIVE NATIVE OUR JACKIE HJ
DYNAMITE CAP EXPLODENT RING OF STEEL E
FOXILAND FALKLAND XIS HJ
PRESS CARD FAPPIANO COURTLY DEE E
WESHAAM FAPPIANO PRICELESS ASSET HJ
POLYNESIAN FLYER FLYING LARK DALPHIN DANCER E
PRINCELY RULER FOOLISH PLEASURE SUN VALLEY LINDA HJ
PRESENT VALUE HALO FAIRLY REGAL HJ
MASTER IMP IMPERIUS IHR TRANQUILLA E
BOLD T JAY ISLAND AGENT BOLD PARLAY HJ
VISCOUNT JAY LEA SHINES DELIGHT HJ
JONES HALL JOES LIN DADDYS CHALLENGE HJ
BRIDLE PATH KENNEDY ROAD ROMAN GUN E
SHAFOUN LABUS CEPHIRA E
SIMBALU LEONATO SO WORTHY HJ
LANGATA EXPRESS MANSINGH IL REGATO HJ
ITS FLEETWOOD MAC MARASCHINO CORUNA HJ
ESPIRITU MASTER SPIRITUS STEADY GO ON E
CANADIAN KID MILKIE CANADIAN FROST HJ
MARK TWAIN MISSISSIPPI ATTICA E
BLACK TIE AFFAIR MISWAKI HAT TAB GIRL HJ
EXCAVATE MR PROSPECTOR ANNE CAMPBELL HJ
MT MAGAZINE MR PROSPECTOR B'S OVERDRAFT HJ
BABAMIST MYSTIC BABADANA E
LIGHTNING LEAP NIJINSKY FIRST FEATHER HJ
KRONPRIZ NIZAM KAISERKRONE E
RAMBO PHIL NODOUBLE LACEWORK HJ
AMERICAN HOLME NOHOLME SMOKE VEIL HJ
BLUE NORCLIFFE NORCLIFFE BLUEGRASS BALL HJ
TALENT TOWN OLDEN TIMES COQUE BLUE HJ
TWO DAVIDS OLDEN TIMES REAL MEANING E
PETARDIA PETONG WHAT A PET E
ANOTHER REEF PLUM BOLD SATIN DANCER HJ
WHITEY PRINCELING WHITEFIELD HJ
LIFE INTEREST PRIVATE ACCOUNT THE BLADE HJ
NORTHERN RAJA RAJA BABA NORTH OF VENUS HJ
UNFOLD RAJA BABA UNFURLED HJ
MAHA BABA RAJA BABA CALIPHS CANARY E
PRINCE CASPIAN RAJA BABA SMALL LOAF E
BLUSHING GROOM RED GOD RUNAWAY BRIDE HJ
SIR SHOSTAKOVICH RHEINGOLD SINFUL HJ E
REX MAGNA RIGHT ROYAL CHAMBRE DAMOUR HJ
HIGHBINDER ROUGH N TUMBLE ASPIDISTRA HJ
CAJETANO RUN THE GAUNTLET INTENSIVE E
SAY DORA SAY ROB DORA DORA HJ
MAJOR ACCOUNT SEATTLE SLEW PRIX HJ
TSUNAMI SLEW SEATTLE SLEW BARBS COMPACT HJ
SLEW O GOLD SEATTLE SLEW ALLUVIAL E
CLEVER SECRET SECRETARIAT SMALL LOAF E
ACADEMY AWARD SECRETARIAT MINE ONLY HJ
LUCKY SHAH SHAHRASTANI SHY VITA HJ
PENCIL POINT SHARPEN UP MISS CAREFREE HJ
FAMILY TIES SIR IVOR FANFRELUCHE HJ
COCKY GOLFER SIR IVOR SHINNECOCK HJ
INFIRMATIVE ACTION SON EXCELLENCE GAIL'N REEVA HJ
MYTENS SPECTACTULAR BID PHOTOGRAPHIC HJ
IN CASE STORM CAT IN ESSENCE HJ
SHELTER HALF TENTAM GAY MATELDA HJ
RACONTEUR THE MINSTREL BUBBLING HJ
FLY SO FREE TIME FOR A CHANGE FREE TO FLY HJ
RADISHES AND MINT TIME TESTED PLUMB DANGEROUS HJ
PRINCE OF MELODY TRIOMPHE MELODY MAID HJ
TRIPLE SWEET TRIPLE BEND ANNE LA DOUCE
FULL CIRCLE TUNANTE II QUEENS PAPOOSE HJ
RIGHT OF LIGHT TYRANT DAISY JUNE E
BLUE VAIN VAIN ROMANTIC MOMENT E
BRIDADIER LINDEN VAN DER LINDEN HYPERION PALACE E
PLEASURE PRIZE WHAT A PLEASURE SMALL PRIZE HJ

LavenderFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 11:04 PM

Thanks, PineTree

I recognize a few ...

Laudanum and Pot d'Or are both French TB's. In France, such TB stallions do not really require "approval" as TB's are an accepted crossing. Both these TB's have been excellent producers, and we see both represented in the US through their offspring, especially Laudanum (for instance, he is the sire of Oh Star). Both also are seen in eventer pedigrees.

Among the American TB's, both Simbalu and Infirmative Action were French-approved in US based on performance - Simbalu on his performance in the hunters (many times Regular Working Hunter Champion) and Infirmative Action based on race record (a long and hard-knocking sort of record).

Joe's Lin, listed as a sire, also was French-approved in US (based on performance and offspring performance).

Got more? You're great at this.

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 20, 2007, 11:29 PM

Thanks for the info Lavenderfarm.

I decided to take only the top 75 or so TB's each year so that I wouldn't include a 'one hit wonder' or if I did then it would be an offspring with significant points. Many of the horses on the list repeated several times over the years.

Just a note on the USEF eventer list. Up to a certain level ( and I'm not sure where the line is ) a horse can compete in eventing without a USEF life/annual number. This causes some problems on the sires list as only the sires of USEF recorded horses will get credit for offspring. I've found two horses on the 100 day stallion list that evented as high as preliminary and do not have a results history with USEF and their sires are not on the sires list. I was able to find their performance record on the US Eventing site.

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 06:58 AM

OK, Tri, you said -

American breeders are stuck with a system that works very well in europe but doesn't work very well in America and by continuing along this path, we are saying we can't improve our methods of grading young stock, approving stallions and thus become more and more uncompetitive in the marketplace - this just goes back to the question "is this the best way to build a sporthorse industry in the U.S.?"

Then I said -
Uh, surely you have seen the other posts where several people have stated that we have a "stellar" group of stallions at the testing this year. So apparently the system IS working here to help ensure that better stallions are going to the testing, and that they are better prepared. Sorry, but I think it is stupid to advocate "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" just because the system isn't PERFECT.

Then you said -
I thought the goal was to breed international level sporthorses!!!!! You are judging the entire U.S. sporthorse industry by the stallions being tested - as proof of it doing well? I don't think that is the european system. As you pointed out, more of them are putting the stallions in some sort of competition versus testing. And what does the quality of the stallions testing have to do with bringing horses to the global market competively?

Come on, now. Read for compression, please, and also stop continually changing the parameters of the discussion every time someone refutes one of your statements.

You asserted that the current stallion testing scenario in this country doesn't help us improve our methods of grading young stock and approving stallions. I stated that since we have a "stellar" group of stallions at this testing, we apparently ARE getting better at producing young stallions. And, yes, I would judge the domestic sport horse industry by the quality of the homebred stallions at the testing. If we are in fact producing better young stallions, doesn't it follow that we are also producing better young mares, and geldings, too? How could we produce good young stallions, but only c*** mares and geldings? Is quality sex-selective?

And your last statement really floors me. The quality of stallions in this country is hugely related to the quality of foals put on the ground. If stallion quality wasn't a factor, then why do we and the Germans, Dutch, Swedish, Danish, etc.) even bother having stallion licensings? Why do breeders in Europe flock by the thousands to watch the licensings and the stallion shows? Why do top stallions sell for hundreds of thousands of Euros? Why do stallion owners pour umpteen thousands of dollars and Euros into advertising, showing, etc.? Why don't they just cut their losses and stand a backyard "mongrel" stallion? (Oh, yeah, wouldn't that do wonders for improving the quality of breeding!)

Kathy, I'm really struggling to follow your logic here. You keep asserting that the current stallion licensing/testing process here is not working to help breeders improve their programs. If you honestly don't believe that the quality of warmblood breeding has improved drastically in the U.S. over the past 10 years or so, then I have to wonder where in the heck you are keeping yourself. Maybe you need to get out more. Go to some of the larger inspections around the country. Go to the Y/H finals in Lexington (just concluded for this year). Go to Devon. I am sure there are also many places in the hunter/jumper worlds where you can see excellent examples of domestically bred young horses. Then try to tell us that sporthorse breeding has not improved here. Until then, I'll just keep on my merry way, supporting the inspection/stallion testing process and encouraging mare owners to breed to good INSPECTED AND APPROVED stallions.

not again

Sep. 21, 2007, 08:11 AM

Bent Hickory

Sep. 21, 2007, 09:17 AM

Bent Hickory, I see where you conveniently left out in your cut and paste, the part where Edgar and Sonesta resorted to name calling and personal attacks.

An odd comment coming from you who only ever repeats the "convenient" parts of quotes, reports, etc. Consider it flattery.

Sonesta posting that a lawyer should be called is saying that I should be sued. That is a threat of a lawsuit, like it or not.

Sorry, but its not. Conjectures of what someone else can or should do not arise to a threat of a suit.

Or do you want the current system of chasing horses with ATVs ... ?

The current system does not involve chasing horses with ATV's. This was an incident that occurred in the past at one testing. It is unfortunate that it occurred, but it is clearly not part of the 100-day testing system. Again, more of your typical hyperbole full of inaccurate and unfair statements.

As we have seen, it took some getting tough with a few of the individuals to just get some of the changes for this test.

Remember the Tom and Jerry cartoons where the little pup does all the barking and believes he is scaring Tom out of his wits? In actuality, the pup's dad is standing behind the pup the whole time...

Don't you want a better system? Don't you want U.S. breeders to be more competitive in the global marketplace? Is that not a goal for you?

I'm working hard to make the AHS a better registry: to educate our breeders so that they produce better and better foals with each generation, to get our best sporthorses in the hands of the top trainers and top competitors to show what our breeders are capable of producing, to raise the awareness of the qualities of the Hanoverian among the riding public at large so that our breeders can sell their foals at a profit, and to continue to develop our already positive relationship with the German Verband to improve the Hanoverian worldwide. THESE are my goals.

Tri, we've heard much of your "lofty goals," but despite my (and others) requests, I've yet to see any concrete proposals from you.

Giddy-up

Sep. 21, 2007, 09:50 AM

So seeing the list of previous tests results & info--I have some questions:

How do they choose a test site location? Do people volunteer their farm? Do the farms need to meet specific criteria? Do they try to move the test site around?

fish

Sep. 21, 2007, 10:07 AM

Given the list of US licensing champions and reserve champions, what individuals and/or percentage have produced top performers (i.e. year end award winners in any discipline) or other licensing champions? Is the system working through the generations?

Re: other licensing champions: Derringer sired Dante-- and Gerd Zuther, who ran the November Hill testing, was very much involved in Derringer's development beforehand, starting with November Hill's having bred Derringer.

This is not to say that there was any hanky-panky going on, or these horses weren't deserving (I happen to like both of them very much). I do know, however, that Zuther's involvement in the testing made Derringer's owner feel much more confident than she otherwise would have been: i.e., she knew that he'd thought highly of that horse from the day he was born.

In other words, it seems to me that if we want to follow patterns, there are a lot that could be looked at. There are many reasons, after all, why a horse may or may not do well at a testing and/or go on to have a successful performance and/or breeding career. It seems, for example, that one of most important factors would have to be the owner's pocketbook. Especially given that the 100DT is marketed as an economical alternative to approval through performance, it wouldn't surprise me if some stallion owners decided to put all their eggs into the 100DT basket, and bring their stallions home hoping to recoup the investment with breedings because they can't really afford to campaign a stallion on top of the 100DT, advertising, multiple registry fees, etc., etc. Then there are other stallion owners who look at the situation quite differently: e.g. those who believe that a stallion needs a performance career whether he's approved or not and go directly to the show ring because they don't want to risk the enormous investments they have in their stallions by sending them away to be handled by strangers for 100 days. Campaigning a stallion costs many times more than the 100DT, but as threads like this have made abundantly clear, the financial aspect can begin to look very different if the training received at the test ends up setting back (or destroying) instead of advancing a horse's readiness to show, and those mare owners most likely to campaign offspring end up demanding proof through performance on top of the 100DT anyway.

Personally, I find the investments stallion owners are expected to make in the interests of attracting mares mind-boggling. I am in awe of those who have the financial and emotional strengths to play such a high stakes game, and certainly wouldn't hold it against any horse if he failed to "prove himself" due to his owner's financial and/or emotional considerations.

tri

Sep. 21, 2007, 10:24 AM

LavenderFarm

Sep. 21, 2007, 10:39 AM

Here’s what I found on ages at the time of testing of the 100-day Champion and Res CH horses ... and it looks like the younger ones CAN win over the older ones at times (hope the poster with the young one sees this). It also seems (just on knowing 2 horses from each testing) that the "older" horses are more of a phenomenon in recent years.

1986
Traumtanzer - ?
Fuerst Gotthard – 3

1987
Maronjo – 3
Almaden - ?

1988
Frohwind – 4
Donavan – 3

1989
Derringer – 3
Walter Scott – 3

1990
Tallison - ?
Page Nine - ?

1991
Rio Grande – 5
Bordeaux – 4

1992
Le Champion – 3
Gallarius – 3

1993
Idocus – 3
Wallstreet Kid – 4

1994
Flambou – 3
Jupiter – 5

1995
Dante – 3
Merlin – 3

1996
Amor Reto – 5
Sandro’s Song – 5

1998
Puerto d’Azur – 6
Amour – 3

2000
Contingo – 7
Reno – 4

2002
Raymeister – 3
Di Vinci – 6

2004
Galeno Tyme – 5
Caleb – 6

FullCircleTraining

Sep. 21, 2007, 10:59 AM

Okay....it is with great trepidation that I enter into this, but I'm going to try not to stir the pot (too much).

Hopefully these are a few simple questions from a "newbie" stallion prospect owner.

A) The "performance option"... Can someone elaborate? I'm talking about Dressage performance for AHS approval. Something about three or five scores (I've heard both) over 60-something% at PSG? Does anyone know for sure what the time limit is, if any?

B) For those of you talking about being strong advocates for and involved in changes in the 100-day test - Sonesta, Edgar...I'm sure I'm missing a LOT of you - how do you go about getting involved? What can I do to help? Even if I didn't have a stallion prospect, I'd be interested; but now that I have him, I'd really like to help effect some positive changes.

My opinions on other matters discussed in this thread I will keep to myself. :winkgrin:

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 10:59 AM

I believe that Traumtanzer was a 1981 model, so he would have been 5 at the time of his test in 1986.

Also, for 2002, the 100DT was won by Di Vinci. Raymeister only did the short test, not the 100 DT, so it is not a true comparison.

tri

Sep. 21, 2007, 11:02 AM

You are right. In the last 5 testings, only two 3 year olds placed in the top two. Is there any way of knowing in the previous years if and how many older stallions were participating?

NoDQhere

Sep. 21, 2007, 11:08 AM

I've stayed out of this discussion mainly because we have not put a stallion through a 100 day test. Not because we don't believe in it, just that we have chosen the performance route and that has worked for us. Also any thread that involves Tri tends to get nasty and who need that??

BUT, certain peoples statements that the American system isn't "getting it done" because we copy the Europeans, really offends me. Sport Horse breeding in the US has made huge improvements over the last 30 years. Anyone who thinks it isn't working really does need to get out more :mad:

I just quickly looked through the list but this jumped out at me. Dante was sired by Derringer, both test winners. Dante's dam is a full sister to Moronjo's sire, another test winner. Dante's dam is also the dam of Meisterwind who was Approved through performance. (Grand Prix dressage)

The system is working but it is up to the breeders. We are AMERICAN. We are not "stuck" with a system or forced into 100 day testing our stallions. We are FREE to choose. But to say the system isn't working is an insult to every breeder out there trying to do it the "right way".

Bent Hickory

Sep. 21, 2007, 11:21 AM

In the U.S., we have DIFFERENT mare base, DIFFERENT land area, DIFFERENT fee structures, DIFFERENT sport base, DIFFERENT marketing challenges, DIFFERENT client base, DIFFERENT young horse training issues, etc etc etc. ...

More rhetoric, a touch of hyperbole, but no viable concrete solution.

LavenderFarm

Sep. 21, 2007, 11:26 AM

DownYonder, thanks for the clarification. Raymeister is listed (in the ISR link provided by someone above) as winner of the test and it is noted "Short Test."

NoDQHere - That is interesting information and the type of data that, I believe, should be developed from the test results ... to prove their worth so to speak.

Oakstable

Sep. 21, 2007, 11:45 AM

And we have a different dollar than we did only a few years ago.

Now our dollar doesn't buy more in Canada for the first time in decades, and we all know how far it has sunk against the Euro.

American riders, with some exceptions, are going to be competing in NA.

Europeans are not coming here to buy, they have more than enough to choose from, and only some rare combinations not available there will make it across the pond.

I don't understand the energy some people invest in this thread.

If you scan that list of ch and reserve ch over the years, there are some significant stallions -- within the context of NA breeding. A number of them would have been equally significant in Europe.

Americans have made huge gains in breeding quality horses over the last 25 years.

copper bay farm

Sep. 21, 2007, 12:49 PM

A) The "performance option"... Can someone elaborate? I'm talking about Dressage performance for AHS approval. Something about three or five scores (I've heard both) over 60-something% at PSG? Does anyone know for sure what the time limit is, if any?

The current performance requirements for the AHS include the following:

in dressage: receive a score of at least 63% five (5) times under different judges in FEI Prix St. Georges or higher tests at USEF recognized shows, or
in jumping: place in the top five (5) four (4) times at Level 7 or higher of a USEF “A” rated show or of an Equine Canada Class “1” show, or
in eventing: place three (3) times in the top 50 percent of finishers at a USEA/USEF Intermediate or higher Horse Trials.

You would have to discuss it with someone on the Mare and Stallion Committee specifically, but nowhere have I seen that there was an age limit. In fact there was a 21yo Trakehner stallion licensed for the AHS and fully approved through performance (GP jumping) at Hilltop this summer. If your stallion is provisionally licensed (must be 3 or older to be presented), you have 2 years to successfully complete either the 100-Day Test or the performance requirements, during which time you may register up to 20 foals/year. Now 2 years is obviously not enough time to get a green-broke 3yo to Prix St. Georges, but you can present an older stallion for licensing - sometimes the owners don't present them until they already successfully have their scores. The bummer of that is you lose the breeding seasons (for AHS foals anyway) while he is being trained and risk everything if he were to become injured. That's why some choose to go the 100-Day route, but I will stay out of the pros and cons of that and leave that to others in this thread. ;)

There is more info on the licensing/approval process at http://www.hanoverian.org/Stallions/licensing.shtml

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:23 PM

"You asserted that the current stallion testing scenario in this country doesn't help us improve our methods of grading young stock and approving stallions."

"Kathy, I'm really struggling to follow your logic here. You keep asserting that the current stallion licensing/testing process here is not working to help breeders improve their programs."

No. I have never asserted or posted any of these things. You are jumping to conclusions and ignoring my repeated posts on the problems of U.S. breeders not be competitive in the global markets.

Kathy (Tri), this is from your post #131:
“American breeders are stuck with a system that works very well in Europe but doesn't work very well in America and by continuing along this path, we are saying we can't improve our methods of grading young stock, approving stallions and thus become more and more uncompetitive in the marketplace.”

So, yes, you HAVE asserted that the current system of inspecting breeding stock and testing stallions doesn’t work for U.S. breeders. And I think that YOU are the only one saying that - I just can’t believe that any serious student of sport horse breeding in North America doesn't think we have made huge progress in improving the quality of our foal crops. Breeders here ARE producing better stock, and they ARE becoming more competitive in the marketplace. I can’t begin to tell you how many people I have talked to this year who have purchased domestically bred horses because they were able to find what they wanted here – and I am talking about not just young stock and breeding stock, but riding horses also, including some very good “big ring” prospects.

I wish you would explain how eliminating the current system of inspecting and testing stallions would help make U.S. breeders more competitive with European breeders. If NOT inspecting breeding stock and NOT performance testing stallions could magically make the U.S. produce top winning horses, then why haven’t we seen such horses at the big international competitions? After all, there are still PLENTY of unregistered sport horses being produced in this country from uninspected and unapproved stallions and mares. Why haven’t some of them made it to the top?

Really, you have been asked numerous times to describe your idea for improving breeding in this country and for getting domestically bred horses to the top international competitions, but all you have done is make vague references to "the British system". Can you please describe that system, and exactly what it is that makes you think it would be a viable alternative for the U.S.? And how you would go about convincing breeders here that it is a better system than the system of breeding stock inspections and stallion testing?

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:30 PM

DownYonder, thanks for the clarification. Raymeister is listed (in the ISR link provided by someone above) as winner of the test and it is noted "Short Test.".

IMO, it is a bit misleading for ISR to list Raymeister as the winner of the 2002 test. There is really no comparision between the 30 day short test and the 100 day regular test. In fact, the 30 day short test isn't even recognized by many of the major warmblood registries (I think only ISR and AHHA recognize it, and I heard AHHA might be reconsidering its stance.)

Tasker

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:35 PM

Quote from copper bay farm:

The current performance requirements for the AHS include the following:

* in dressage: receive a score of at least 63% five (5) times under different judges in FEI Prix St. Georges or higher tests at USEF recognized shows, or
* in jumping: place in the top five (5) four (4) times at Level 7 or higher of a USEF “A” rated show or of an Equine Canada Class “1” show, or
* in eventing: place three (3) times in the top 50 percent of finishers at a USEA/USEF Intermediate or higher Horse Trials.

End quote.

I do not have a dog in this fight but it is worth mentioning that a stallion who might not achieve the required scores for (any) registry at the 100 Day Test will also be subject to additional rules laid down by the parent registry.

For example...my stallion did not score well at his 100 day test - an 85 or something with good individual marks (only 2 scores below a 7) - that computer program and the quality of the other horses comes into play here, I guess. He was then presented to the AHS by his previous owner shortly after the testing. He failed again with poor scores for his head (a 6) and for being overly enthusiastic in the jump chute (bouncing the one stride at 4'6" etc). He then went on to have an extremely successful FEI career with very, very good scores - an average of over 68% at Intermediare 1, not including the Freestyle scores and has still collected HOY awards from the AHS over the years. As I was told by Hugh Bellis-Jones, he will forever be denied Hanoverian approval due to the fact he was already inspected twice. I know his previous owner would not have presented him post-testing had she known what the rules were.

It is no skin off my back as I do not live in Hannover and that is ok with me to not be breeding Hanoverians.

It is just fair warning to other stallion owners that it is best to find out what the rules are if the testing does not go as well as you might have hoped.

Best of luck to all & their fine horses regardless.

LavenderFarm

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:37 PM

DownYonder, I checked the ISR link again. The listing is of "Champion" and "Reserve Champion" horses from the previous testings. Raymeister is listed #1 (thus, I presume, Champion) for his year with "Short Test" noted. So I may have erred by saying "winner" above. If so, sorry. But I understand your point.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:38 PM

Question, do the 30 day test stallions have to perform the same at the final 3 day evaluation? Or are they judged to a lower standard?

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:42 PM

As I was told by Hugh Bellis-Jones, he will forever be denied Hanoverian approval due to the fact he was already inspected twice.

That is where even a small dose of common sense for the registry would come in handy.

Sonesta

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:43 PM

30 day stallion must perform the same as the others for the final 30 days and the final testing three days.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:47 PM

30 day stallion must perform the same as the others for the final 30 days and the final testing three days.

If that is the case, then to me, Raymeister deserves to be listed as the winner. He DID have to go thru the training to get the scores. If a horse can show wonderful behavior, rideability, gaits, and jump, etc, why care how many days they were present? An extra 70 days will make NO difference to the quality of his resulting offspring.

Bent Hickory

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:48 PM

That is where even a small dose of common sense for the registry would come in handy.

Please explain precisely what you mean by this.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:51 PM

Please explain precisely what you mean by this.

If a stallion goes on to an "extremely successful FEI career", to not consider him because he was presented twice as a youngster is lacking in common sense.

TKR

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:54 PM

Wow!!! This thread doesn't seem to have much positive input. I agree completely about the past being unacceptable. I probably would have second thoughts about sending a stallion with the same people running the test, even with Suzanne overseeing, since it is from a distance for the most part. However, I just hope this one turns out well and everyone can move on and some of the bitterness from the past is resolved. Best of luck to all the stallions and their anxious owners! I can't imagine the emotional roller coaster you must be riding.
Cheers!
PennyG

Sonesta

Sep. 21, 2007, 01:58 PM

If a stallion goes on to an "extremely successful FEI career", to not consider him because he was presented twice as a youngster is lacking in common sense.

Sometimes applying the rules has an unfortunate result. But, remember, there are many phases to inspection and approval. The presentation (not the testing or performance requirements) is the initial determination of whether the stallion is of the type and conformation the registry seeks.

Let me make up a stallion: Assume UBERSTALLION is presented at licensing and he is turned down because he is too upright in his pasterns. He is worked with by pros and presented again. He is turned down again for the conformational defect. He then goes on to score incredibly well in performance DESPITE the conformation flaw.

Must the registry reconsider him based only on his performance? Certainly not. So, for whatever reason, some stallions don't make it past the initial evaluation. Later performance shouldn't necessarily negate that. Although, rules are difficult to apply across the board without some good horses being lost in the process.

Routinier is a good example of a very nice, sucessful stallion that is not and cannot be AHS approved (according to his former owner). Too bad, cause I like him and would breed to him if he were. But for reasons of the rules, he cannot be approved.

Bent Hickory

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:10 PM

If a stallion goes on to an "extremely successful FEI career", to not consider him because he was presented twice as a youngster is lacking in common sense.

This is not a lack of common sense on part of the registry. The registry requires that breeding stallions meet certain criteria and this stallion apparently fell short of that criteria twice. A successful competition career is not going to change his conformation. The registry acknowledges that many of these stallions can/will go on to have sucessful, even "extremely successful" competition careers. Even so, it doesn't mean that they should be breeding stallions for the registry.

You may think that the stallion should be licensed, but recognize the difference for what it is: a philosophical difference rather than so-called "lack of common sense."

tri

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:16 PM

Downyonder, Chris, I don't know how many times I have to post it - it isn't about QUALITY. I never have in any post said that the QUALITY isn't there. What I have said over and over again, is that we are not bringing the horses to the MARKETPLACE in a competitive manner. Look at the thread about it taking $10,000 just to get an average foal on the ground & approved. Also, look at all the threads about the lack of american bred horses making it to the international levels. We are supposed to be breeding int'l level sporthorses so THAT IS THE CRITERIA TO DETERMINE SUCCESS!!!! Not inspection scores, for pete's sake. All the great scores and quality stallions don't mean a thing if they are only European Triangle Trotters and sitting in pastures somewhere.

And, where did I EVER say that we shouldn't have an approval process or stallion inspections? Now, Chris, if you are just having a bad day and want to make things up to try and prove a point, just stop!

Also, you are the one who said you didn't have time to read the information I provided to you on British Breeding - btw, which has been on numerous VERY long threads posted by me and several other posters. And, I have also discussed the way the Canadians have done it - me and quite a few other posters along with quite a few VERY long threads as well. You know, you can lead a horse to water.....but you can't make her spend the time to learn.

Oakstable

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:29 PM

Routinier doesn't have any Hanoverians in the recent generations. I think the AHS requires a certain percentage of Hano blood to be licensed as an AHS stallion ... unless the stallion is accepted in the jumper program, like Windfall ... then he is accepted as an outcross to breed jumpers.

The Dutch will accept for any Dutch mare a stallion who was approved by the primary European registeries and the foal will get Register A papers. For example, I bred one of my Dutch mares to Routinier. Come to think of it, that mare has rarely been bred to a Dutch-licensed stallion. Iroko is the only one and he is a Westphalian.

I think the Hanoverians are a recognized breed of horse and the KWPN is a registery with stallions being accepted from many backgrounds if they can meet an extremely rigorous inspection proess.

Giddy-up

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:32 PM

30 day stallion must perform the same as the others for the final 30 days and the final testing three days.

But do the 30 day stallions only have their "own" rider whereas the 100 stallions have a variety of riders?

(Only trying to understand here & this thread seems to have turned into a catfight among some rather than an informative thread about the test :no:)

Sonesta

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:39 PM

But do the 30 day stallions only have their "own" rider whereas the 100 stallions have a variety of riders?

(Only trying to understand here & this thread seems to have turned into a catfight among some rather than an informative thread about the test :no:)

The 30 day stallions have their own rider riding in those instances when the 100 day stallions would be ridden by their regular 100 day training rider. The guest riders ride ALL the stallions equally - 100 day and 30 day stallions.

Tasker

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:47 PM

Quote from Bent Hickory:

Originally Posted by Fairview Horse Center View Post
If a stallion goes on to an "extremely successful FEI career", to not consider him because he was presented twice as a youngster is lacking in common sense.
This is not a lack of common sense on part of the registry. The registry requires that breeding stallions meet certain criteria and this stallion apparently fell short of that criteria twice. A successful competition career is not going to change his conformation. The registry acknowledges that many of these stallions can/will go on to have sucessful, even "extremely successful" competition careers. Even so, it doesn't mean that they should be breeding stallions for the registry.

You may think that the stallion should be licensed, but recognize the difference for what it is: a philosophical difference rather than so-called "lack of common sense."

End quote:

Well, in my guy's case his conformation flaw was/is his head. That is one thing that no matter what you do, it is not going to change. The loose jumping -well, he is a big, powerful fellow and he does not think it necessary to squish in a dinky stride when he can power over a big fence with room to spare. *shrug* It is in the past. His previous owner would have managed his career VERY differently and that was/is my point. She did not know the rules.

Like I said, it doesn't matter to me at this point, just that stallion owners should be made aware of what the rules are IN CASE their stallion does not make the grade with their registry of choice...sort of knowing what their options are!

And for those of you who might think I have sour grapes on his approval status...I said it before and I'll say it again...the rules are the rules and that is fine with me as I do not live in Hannover, therefore I am not breeding Hanoverians. Period. Another stallion that stood here for many years also lost his approval status due to a lack of the 100 day test. These things do not make his get greater or lesser. Same for Wally. Heck, he could care less if he had _any_ licenses. He just wants to go to the breeding shed like any other stallion. :lol:

Good luck & best wishes to all the stallions, their owners and their support staff.

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 02:57 PM

What I have said over and over again, is that we are not bringing the horses to the MARKETPLACE in a competitive manner. Look at the thread about it taking $10,000 just to get an average foal on the ground & approved.

So you honestly think that eliminating our current method of inspecting breeding stock and performance testing stallions will reduce the cost of getting a foal on the ground, yet quality will continue to improve? Sorry, but I don't buy that. Without inspections and stallion testing, people will be breeding willy-nilly. That is NOT a good recipe for improving quality, and if the quality isn't there, buyers will go elsewhere - like back to Europe, where quality continues to improve in every generation.

Also, look at all the threads about the lack of american bred horses making it to the international levels. We are supposed to be breeding int'l level sporthorses so THAT IS THE CRITERIA TO DETERMINE SUCCESS!!!! Not inspection scores, for pete's sake. All the great scores and quality stallions don't mean a thing if they are only European Triangle Trotters and sitting in pastures somewhere.

And once again - where are all the U.S. bred top international horses that didn't come from registered and inspected breeding stock? I want to hear about internationally successful horses from breeding programs that don't use approved mares and stallions. Please list them for me. Surely there have been tons of them from your vaunted British and Canadian systems.

Oh, and by the way - there are plenty of domestically bred horses with inspected and approved parents showing up in the USDF rankings. These aren't just "Triangle Trotters" either, but horses competing very successfully in under saddle classes. I imagine there are also plenty of them in the hunter, jumper, and eventing rankings, too.

Sorry, I'm pretty content with the current system of inspecting breeding stock and approving stallions, so I really don't have much interest in trying to figure out how GB or Canada does things. I have seen enormous progress here over the past 7-10 years, based on the Dutch and German systems, and since it does seem to be working pretty well for most WB breeders in the U.S., then I plan to continue supporting it.

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 03:04 PM

If that is the case, then to me, Raymeister deserves to be listed as the winner. He DID have to go thru the training to get the scores. If a horse can show wonderful behavior, rideability, gaits, and jump, etc, why care how many days they were present? An extra 70 days will make NO difference to the quality of his resulting offspring.

Disagree. He may have been champion of the short test, but he was not champion of the 100DT. It is very misleading for ISR to list him as champion of the 2002 test and try to equate it with a 100DT. Would he have been champion of the 100DT if he had been there for the full 100 days, like Di Vinci was? Who knows - he may have been champion, he may have finished at the bottom of the pack, or somewhere in between. The point is that it wasn't an equal playing field, so the results from the two tests can not be considered as equals.

FullCircleTraining

Sep. 21, 2007, 03:14 PM

The current performance requirements for the AHS include the following:

in dressage: receive a score of at least 63% five (5) times under different judges in FEI Prix St. Georges or higher tests at USEF recognized shows, or
in jumping: place in the top five (5) four (4) times at Level 7 or higher of a USEF “A” rated show or of an Equine Canada Class “1” show, or
in eventing: place three (3) times in the top 50 percent of finishers at a USEA/USEF Intermediate or higher Horse Trials.

You would have to discuss it with someone on the Mare and Stallion Committee specifically, but nowhere have I seen that there was an age limit. In fact there was a 21yo Trakehner stallion licensed for the AHS and fully approved through performance (GP jumping) at Hilltop this summer. If your stallion is provisionally licensed (must be 3 or older to be presented), you have 2 years to successfully complete either the 100-Day Test or the performance requirements, during which time you may register up to 20 foals/year. Now 2 years is obviously not enough time to get a green-broke 3yo to Prix St. Georges, but you can present an older stallion for licensing - sometimes the owners don't present them until they already successfully have their scores. The bummer of that is you lose the breeding seasons (for AHS foals anyway) while he is being trained and risk everything if he were to become injured. That's why some choose to go the 100-Day route, but I will stay out of the pros and cons of that and leave that to others in this thread. ;)

There is more info on the licensing/approval process at http://www.hanoverian.org/Stallions/licensing.shtml

Copper bay, thank you for the response and the link. So if I am understanding correctly, it's only AFTER you take your stallion to the AHS inspection that the clock starts ticking? 2 years? But you can take him to the inspection at any age after 2 1/2 (I believe that's what the AHS site said)? So really you could wait until your stallion was 8 and showing PSG and then take him, giving yourself plenty of time to get the scores (if you didn't already have them)? Hmmm. Interesting. Do I have that straight?

And what did you mean by this? The bummer of that is you lose the breeding seasons (for AHS foals anyway) Are you saying a branded Hanoverian stallion be licenced/approved under another registry before (or without) being approved by the AHS?

What happens if you take your stallion to the inspection at 3, decide to go the 100-day test route, and your stallion doesn't pass? It seemed like Tasker was saying you got a "second chance":

For example...my stallion did not score well at his 100 day test - an 85 or something with good individual marks (only 2 scores below a 7) - that computer program and the quality of the other horses comes into play here, I guess. He was then presented to the AHS by his previous owner shortly after the testing. He failed again with poor scores for his head (a 6) and for being overly enthusiastic in the jump chute (bouncing the one stride at 4'6" etc).

Sorry...I know I've got a LOT to learn in the next few years. :confused:

Giddy-up

Sep. 21, 2007, 03:38 PM

The 30 day stallions have their own rider riding in those instances when the 100 day stallions would be ridden by their regular 100 day training rider. The guest riders ride ALL the stallions equally - 100 day and 30 day stallions.

So the 100 days stallions are "assigned" the same training rider for the 97 days before the test? I understand the guest riders part at the end during the test (they ride them all). Do the 30 day stallions that come with their own riders follow their own "training program" once there or the same one the 100 day stallions are doing?

(thanks for answering)

Sonesta

Sep. 21, 2007, 03:56 PM

Yes, each stallion is assigned a rider for the 97 day testing period (but they change riders quite a lot during the first couple of weeks til they find the right combination of rider and stallion to give the horse his best chance - you know, some stallions learn better from one rider than another).

During the final 30 days of the 97 training days, the 30 day stallions (with their own private rider) come to the facility and begin doing all the same things the other stallions are doing. The only real difference is that the 30 day stallions spent the previous 60 days at home training with their own private rider. Once at the test site, they all merge.

So, why don't ALL stallion owners use the 30 day test? Because it's only accepted by a few of the registries. The others require the 100 day.

Tasker

Sep. 21, 2007, 04:58 PM

Quote from Down Yonder...

And once again - where are all the U.S. bred top international horses that didn't come from registered and inspected breeding stock? I want to hear about internationally successful horses from breeding programs that don't use approved mares and stallions.

Able Spirit (she used to beat Dante, Derringer, Parabol & Equitainius all the time FWIW with a Junior rider)
Adamant
Again and Again
Apparition
Altair- Advanced horse with Sally Hoey (now Cousins) in the 80's
Aachen - won Kentucky, USCTA (now USEA) HOY
Stars and Stripes
Jackie Blue - jumped for Canada in 1984 at LA
Ruxton - Multiple National Ch. Regular Working Hunter
Ruston
Hurry Home Jupe

All of these horse were sired by a stallion that was 'disapproved' for lacking a 100 day test - Abundance. Hmmm, being born in 1965 might have had some thing to do with that...but I digress.

FullCircleTraining quote:
What happens if you take your stallion to the inspection at 3, decide to go the 100-day test route, and your stallion doesn't pass? It seemed like Tasker was saying you got a "second chance":

End quote.

FCT - you'd best check with your preferred registry as to 're-presentation' options. It is certainly not my place to say what your options might be now or in the future. This was all going on in the mid-late 90's...

But I do know with great certainty that if Wally's previous owner had known what she was doing taking him to Suzanne Quarles' farm right after the testing, she would have cooled her jets and represented him _with_ the scores in hand. But really the rule change that caused his exclusion is really neither here nor there at this point. It probably is just a heads up to explore ALL the options for the 'what if' situation.

copper bay farm

Sep. 21, 2007, 05:07 PM

Copper bay, thank you for the response and the link. So if I am understanding correctly, it's only AFTER you take your stallion to the AHS inspection that the clock starts ticking? 2 years? But you can take him to the inspection at any age after 2 1/2 (I believe that's what the AHS site said)? So really you could wait until your stallion was 8 and showing PSG and then take him, giving yourself plenty of time to get the scores (if you didn't already have them)? Hmmm. Interesting. Do I have that straight?

And what did you mean by this? Are you saying a branded Hanoverian stallion be licenced/approved under another registry before (or without) being approved by the AHS?

Yes, you could wait until you have the scores and then present for licensing, however you have to weigh the risks - your colt may get injured before obtaining his scores or you may sink a lot of time, $$ and effort into training and showing, and in the end, may not wind up being licensed at all, even if he meets the performance requirements. At the licensing, stallions are scored on conformation, movement in hand and under saddle and jumping technique and ability in a chute. It is not easy to get a colt/stallion licensed. The inspectors are very picky and conformation is studied seriously. Last year there were no stallions who met the licensing requirements. This year was exceptional and 6 out of 8 were licensed at the two sites.

And yes, you can have a branded Hanoverian stallion who is approved with other registries and not with the AHS. He has to meet their standards/approvals. There are many examples of this. Until you have a successful licensing though, you are not permitted to register any AHS foals, so if it takes until age 8 to earn the performance scores it is a long committment.

What happens if you take your stallion to the inspection at 3, decide to go the 100-day test route, and your stallion doesn't pass? It seemed like Tasker was saying you got a "second chance":

Sorry...I know I've got a LOT to learn in the next few years. :confused:

If your stallion passes the licensing, scores under the required 90 points in the 100-Day Test for whatever reason and then goes on to have a stellar performance career - I think you would need to petition the Mare & Stallion Committee for approval. It would be best to ask Chair Suzanne Quarles about that - she has the indepth knowledge of all the ins and outs of something like that.

There is also a new AHS policy providing for an (optional) informal evaluation of your colt during the inspection tour when he is a 2yo. Prospects are seen in-hand and also through the jumping chute. A member of the Mare and Stallion Committee will offer recommendations of whether or not to present for licensing. These informal evaluations are not binding on the owners but were introduced this year by the AHS in order to assist members determine whether to persevere with the raising of a young colt. There were a number of prospects presented as such during this year’s tour. Again, I would speak directly to someone on the Mare & Stallion Committee about this.

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 05:33 PM

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 05:39 PM

During the final 30 days of the 97 training days, the 30 day stallions (with their own private rider) come to the facility and begin doing all the same things the other stallions are doing. The only real difference is that the 30 day stallions spent the previous 60 days at home training with their own private rider. Once at the test site, they all merge.

Don't the 30 day stallions continue with their OWN rider once they get to the test? Or are they assigned to one of the test riders? I could have sworn I saw pics of Ken Borden riding his own stallions at the last test. If that is the case, then there is still quite a bit of difference. The 100DT stallions have endured 70 days of the program at Paxton - change of environment from what they were used to at home, change of rider (sometimes multiple changes), change of farrier, most likely change of feed, change in turn-out routine (i.e., NO turn-out), while the 30DT stallions had the luxury of spending those 70 days with their regular rider/trainer, sleeping in their regular stalls, eating their regular food, getting their regular turn-out, etc. It is a HUGE difference and as I said, it is NOT a level playing field.

Tasker

Sep. 21, 2007, 05:39 PM

Sorry DY...I can do some digging and find the DOB for all these guys/gals - but it will be in the 70s & 80s. I guess since it happened more than 5 years ago none of that counts for anything any more, nor do the offspring & relations of these horses have a leg to stand on for any 'credible' achievements in their family history. Abundance lost his license in the early 90's, well after his 20th birthday, so doing the test was definitely not in his future! The fact he had international get was the only reason I popped up that list. You had asked for one...so I gave what I know. Sorry.

The only reason I joined this thread in the first place was to offer a bit of insight that another SO (who happened to own my stallion) gave to me. Believe me, I have no problem with the 100 day test, now or when it first started however long ago. Some people are strongly opposed to it, some people are for it. Kind of like politics...live & let live!

Good luck to all the stallions, their owners and the support staff!

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 21, 2007, 05:40 PM

Down Yonder how about you come up with a list of US bred warmbloods
sired by approved stallions that are winning at international level GP jumping. Or a list of Green, Regular, Junior, Amateur Owner hunters that are in the top 25 USEF list and aren't imported.

I'm sure you can find some but not too many.

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 05:46 PM

Sorry DY...I can do some digging and find the DOB for all these guys/gals - but it will be in the 70s & 80s. I guess since it happened more than 5 years ago none of that counts for anything any more, nor do the offspring & relations of these horses have a leg to stand on for any 'credible' achievements in their family history. Abundance lost his license in the early 90's, well after his 20th birthday, so doing the test was definitely not in his future! The fact he had international get was the only reason I popped up that list. You had asked for one...so I gave what I know. Sorry.

OK, thanks. I was just wondering, because most of the back and forth discussions about the validity of the N.A. stallion test have focused on what it has accomplished within the past 10 years or so as far as helping breeders produce better quality foals that will meet the demands of top riders. I guess if there were still a lot of unapproved or untested stallions siring top international horses, we would know about them.

DownYonder

Sep. 21, 2007, 05:47 PM

Tasker

Sep. 21, 2007, 05:55 PM

Quote from Down Yonder:
OK, thanks. I was just wondering, because most of the back and forth discussions about the validity of the N.A. stallion test have focused on what it has accomplished within the past 10 years or so as far as helping breeders produce better quality foals that will meet the demands of top riders. I guess if there were still a lot of unapproved or untested stallions siring top international horses, we would know about them. End Quote.

Well, I got my USDF Silver & Gold medals on homebreds. We weren't breaking any Astronomically High Score records, but we were certainly competitive with high score awards at the various competitions. And granted they are the children or grandchildren of this aforementioned 'unapproved' stallion by his 'unapproved' get (or out ofthem) and we're busy bringing up the next generations. But I know we are in the minority in not breeding for the sales market. The desire of having FEI dressage horses that _I_ can ride is what gets me going every day...

IMHO, breeders will do what they are told to do, especially if they do not ride at a high level. And if you think that is a criticism, I apologize for speaking my mind. It is just there is a HUGE difference in actually RIDING a GP horse vs. saying you BREEDING one. It takes quite a while to get a horse up to that level (be it dressage, jumping or eventing) so I don't think a 10 year time frame gives enough latitude for the offspring to have gotten there yet, unless a stallion was actively breeding before he went to the test. In the end, you will need a horse that stays sound long enough, trains up quick enough and is capable of doing all that you (the rider) ask of it...which is quite a long list of requirements!

And on that note, I am done for the day. We are bringing in our last cutting of hay and I'm beat.

Edited to add the following...

Another thing that just popped into my head and I thought was worth mentioning - in the end, a horse that is out there competing at a high level and produces outstanding, competitive, sound offspring holds far more interest to me (the rider) than a stallion that goes out and wins a test (30, 70 or 100 days) and never sets foot in a competition arena again. The judge(s) are the ones who decide who the winners are in all areas (testing, competition), so in the end, the proof is in the pudding - i.e. what are the offspring doing and what did the sire do in competition. Sort of like racehorses...the fastest one is the one who gets a big stud fee for a while but after a couple of foal crops hit the track, the fastest one sorts the pile again.

arnika

Sep. 21, 2007, 06:35 PM

by DownYonder
Sorry, I don't follow h/j and jumping. Maybe someone else can hunt them up for you.

Rephrased slightly since you don't follow or appear to be aware of WB hunter or jumper sires. The words in bold were rephrased by me.

Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2696997#post2696997)
Down Yonder how about you come up with a list of US bred warmbloods
sired by approved stallions that are winning at international level GP dressage. Or a list of Open, Junior, Amateur Owner dressage horses that are in the top 25 USEF list and aren't imported.

I'm sure you can find some but not too many.

Touchstone Farm

Sep. 21, 2007, 11:36 PM

So just because my stallion may end up one of the lower stallions doesn't necessarily mean he'll fail the test. If he can demonstrate enough natural talent and ability, since there won't be much trained talent and ability, he can still pass the test.

misita, I just wanted to add that in some of the past tests held in Virginia, the oldest horses with the most training ended up at the bottom. (Don't mean to alarm the owner of Gatsby. I'm not saying they all did! :-) I'm just saying it's not a given because the horse is older and has more training that he will be the winner.) Another horse (can't remember his name at the moment, believe he was 4), came into the country, through Florida and directly to the test. The first four weeks or so, he had to be quarantined from the other stallions due to snotty nose, being sick, etc. and couldn't be worked at the level of the others. He ended up third. Another stallion came in unbroken (don't think he had even had a rider on his back prior to being dropped off at the test), and ended up winning. His name was Idocus.

So keep up the faith. If you have a good horse, his talent and abilities should be evident! Good luck.

Fairview Horse Center

Sep. 22, 2007, 12:52 AM

ended up winning. His name was Idocus.

Idocus also had a few rocky moments - when he kept climbing to the top of the hay pile stacked up at the end of the indoor. :eek: I guess he thought mountain climbing was a score he needed to practice for. :D

DownYonder

Sep. 22, 2007, 08:32 AM

Rephrased slightly since you don't follow or appear to be aware of WB hunter or jumper sires. The words in bold were rephrased by me.

Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2696997#post2696997)
Down Yonder how about you come up with a list of US bred warmbloods
sired by approved stallions that are winning at international level GP dressage. Or a list of Open, Junior, Amateur Owner dressage horses that are in the top 25 USEF list and aren't imported.

I'm sure you can find some but not too many.

You are right, there probably aren't too many. Not surprising, considering it usually takes about 10 years to make an international GP horse, and it has only been in the last 10 years or so that warmblood breeding has really taken off in this country. That said, although Idocus was actually bred in Europe, his breeder was an American.

I suspect we will start seeing many more American-breds at the GP levels before long. There were some wonderful U.S. bred FEI prospects at last weekend's Markel/USEF National Young Horse Dressage Championships. In fact, here are a few of those U.S. bred "triangle trotters":

Waterloo Se (00 Seven – Showbiz by Jazz)
Champion, 4 y/o division
bred in the USA by Seigi Belz-Fry

Cabana Boy (Contucci – Britania by Bordeaux)
Champion, 5 y/o division
bred in the USA by Doug and Shannon Langer

Roccoca WF (Rienzi – Turtletaubchen by Tin Rocco)
Reserve Champion, 5 y/o division
bred in the USA by Vanessa Carlson

There are no doubt more, and I am sure we will see quite a few of them in the FEI ranks before long. Some of them might even make it to international GP - barring injury or changes in owners/riders/trainers that impede their progress.

not again

Sep. 22, 2007, 11:02 AM

arnika

Sep. 22, 2007, 12:03 PM

Thank you, not again. I also have been breeding with the AHS for over twenty years.

DownYonder

Sep. 22, 2007, 03:07 PM

DY: You may say that you have been around warmblood breeding for ten years or so, but many people like me have been at it a great deal longer. I put up the money to start the treasury of the AHS in the mid seventies, and am the first founding life member. My family has been breeding warmbloods a great deal longer than that. Be careful of offending people when you start showing your ignorance.

Excuse me? Where did I say I have only been around warmblood breeding for ten years? I have been around this game since the early 80's - not as long as you - but still quite a while. And I have no idea what I said that offended you, nor what you mean by my "ignorance"? I am really puzzled.:confused:

PineTreeFarm

Sep. 23, 2007, 03:04 PM

Sonesta

Sep. 23, 2007, 09:47 PM

Don't the 30 day stallions continue with their OWN rider once they get to the test? Or are they assigned to one of the test riders?

Yes, they do continue the training the last 30 days with their own rider who comes to the final 30 days with them.

arnika

Sep. 23, 2007, 11:22 PM

Sorry, PTF.:o

I usually try not to be a moron.:)

I actually put that I was rephrasing your statement but I meant my comments to be directed to DownYonder since she had said she didn't follow h/j or eventing. That was why I changed the question to dressage and put my changes in bold. I did not want there to be any misunderstanding. What I thought was plain in my mind didn't come out the way I intended.

My sincere apologies again if I offended you. It wasn't meant to do so at all.

tri

Sep. 24, 2007, 08:57 AM

"So you honestly think that eliminating our current method of inspecting breeding stock and performance testing stallions will reduce the cost of getting a foal on the ground,"

What part of "I don't believe in eliminating approvals or inspections" are you having trouble understanding, Down yonder? I've made it pretty plain and have posted it more than once. Maybe you "don't have time" to read that part just like you don't have time to look at the British or Canadian system either.

We have had this discussion on other threads and lists of unapproved horses were given to you then as well - but here you are, demanding it again.

You keeping posting to me - tell me, tell me, tell me, another alternative - why? You won't take the time to learn, you don't read what is posted. Now, you "don't follow hunters or jumpers - which is the largest sections of our sporthorse markets but you insist on participating in a discussion regarding the overall sporthorse market that you claim to not follow. Then you say you are satisfied with the current system. My conclusion to that is that, since you don't know anything, you are making your opinion based on ignorance.

It is hard to have a logical discussion with someone who admits, they don't know and don't follow the subject being discussed!

DownYonder

Sep. 24, 2007, 09:02 AM

Um, those of you who keep condemning the 100DT process in North America sure do exhibit a lot of interest in it. If you don't like it - fine. No one is forcing you to send stallions to it, or breed to stallions that pass it. :winkgrin:

tri

Sep. 24, 2007, 09:16 AM

Well, I think that is what happened when they had to cancel it because few would participate! You are a little behind, downyonder.

DownYonder

Sep. 24, 2007, 09:55 AM

szipi

Sep. 30, 2007, 10:18 AM

I will repeat - since some people obviously have trouble reading for comprehension.

"Those of you who keep condemning the 100DT process in North America sure do exhibit a lot of interest in it. If you don't like it - fine. No one is forcing you to send stallions to it, or breed to stallions that pass it."

I do not think that a lot of us have trouble with the concept, structure and scoring of the 100-day test. I do not think that the location, the organization etc. has ever been in question. I always advocated the necessity of the testing. All problems with the testing could be traced back to one person, the training director. Seems like that now that there is more scrutiny and the TD is "policed", things may turn around (I still have my reservations). I maybe mistaken, but you also had a major beef with them as well in 2000. May I ask what changed your mind?

misita

Sep. 30, 2007, 12:50 PM

Thank you to everybody who has worked so hard to make this year's stallion testing so smooth. All the horses looked great at the mid terms. I was especially pleased with my own stallion (who was the ill one) who showed remarkably well at mid-terms, considering he only had about 10 of the 50 days of training. I was breathless as I prayed he didn't throw his rider (Helmut Schrant), refuse a fence, or go bucking through the arena in cowboy style! :lol: I was just amazed at what a fabulous job HS has done with him. I am so thrilled that Helmut is his rider. I think if anybody can get my very... Mr. Macho stallion...to pass the test, It will be Helmut. I stilll don't know if he'll pass since he's obviously behind the gang. I did talk with HS yesterday and my stallion is still healthy and in full training with the rest. So I'll hope for the best knowing he's in good hands.

I do not know all of what HS has done in the past although I've heard rumors. I'm just so grateful to all of you who made such positive changes in the 100 DT and the TD. Thank you all again!!

Chris Misita
www.hiddenvalleyfarms.net

tri

Sep. 30, 2007, 03:19 PM

"although I've heard rumors."

Don't listen to rumors, just read the independent report from the Federation. Everyone should go from that document and make your position from there. Otherwise, why even have an organization to oversee things?

Downyonder, changed her mind because the ISR was the only place she could get some of her horses approved. She used to hate them and absolutely war with Ilona on a variety of forums.

I am so glad to hear that your stallion is doing well. It sounds like things are going very smoothly and maybe we can all start having some more confidence in the results from our American 100 day stallion testing. Now, if we can just get the system tweaked to make it more cost effective and pertinent towards our U.S. markets, we'd really be doing something great!

DownYonder

Sep. 30, 2007, 03:51 PM

Downyonder, changed her mind because the ISR was the only place she could get some of her horses approved. She used to hate them and absolutely war with Ilona on a variety of forums.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I have NEVER, EVER taken a horse to ISR. My horses are approved with Oldenburg - the real Oldenburg, as in GOV.

Andras, I am now more optimistic about the N.A. 100DT because AHS has a strengthened position with the testing company and is watching the proceedings a bit more closely.

Chris, good luck to you with your stallion. I hope all the boys do well and come home happy and healthy.

ahf

Sep. 30, 2007, 06:13 PM

Okay, Okay, so I won't quit my day job to be an illustrator. But it was rather theraputic.

http://www.autumnhillfarm.com/Vultures.html

Sonesta

Sep. 30, 2007, 06:38 PM

Okay, Okay, so I won't quit my day job to be an illustrator. But it was rather theraputic.

http://www.autumnhillfarm.com/Vultures.html

LOL! Good for you!

talloaks

Sep. 30, 2007, 06:49 PM

Okay, Okay, so I won't quit my day job to be an illustrator. But it was rather theraputic.

http://www.autumnhillfarm.com/Vultures.html

LOL Truth is stranger than fiction!!:lol:

Edgar

Sep. 30, 2007, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by tri:
Downyonder, changed her mind because the ISR was the only place......

We can always count on tri to post the wrong things, twist the right things and tell us her version of half truths according to tri.

Kate, that was priceless!

sylvan farm

Sep. 30, 2007, 09:30 PM

Kate, you made my day - I laughed out loud! Continued good luck to all the stallion owners.

Tiki

Oct. 1, 2007, 03:55 PM

Kate, right on!! You go girl!

DownYonder

Oct. 1, 2007, 04:08 PM

Okay, Okay, so I won't quit my day job to be an illustrator. But it was rather theraputic.

http://www.autumnhillfarm.com/Vultures.html

Kate, that is hilarious! We could probably put some names on those vultures!

Dressage-ryder

Oct. 1, 2007, 05:57 PM

Misita- Nick B. was at our BWP inspection doing the running and he spoke VERY highly of your boy :) Best of luck, It sounds like things are working out for your boy and the others!!

tri

Oct. 1, 2007, 06:11 PM

Chris, you said quite a few times that you were going to take the foals from that mare that didn't make it into the Oldenburg Verband main mare book to the ISR/Oldna. Did you change your mind? Edgar, just because Chris conjures up stuff and denies things doesn't make them less true.

I guess some of you think that the 3rd party investigators of the Federation should be some of those vultures. Just goes to show the absolute lack of respect for integrity you guys have especially since NO ONE here has wanted to do away with stallion testing and many, including SOs who have stallions at the current test, are very happy that the changes were made. You should be ashamed of yourselves for not being more open and vocally supportive to the much needed control systems implemented.

DownYonder

Oct. 1, 2007, 06:26 PM

Chris, you said quite a few times that you were going to take the foals from that mare that didn't make it into the Oldenburg Verband main mare book to the ISR/Oldna. Did you change your mind? Edgar, just because Chris conjures up stuff and denies things doesn't make them less true.

Holy moley, where did you come with THAT? I have never had any intention to take my mares and foals to ISR/ONA! In fact, I have stated on numerous occasions that no one is going to put the Oldenburg brand on my foals without the permission of the Oldenburg Verband. Talk about conjuring up stuff! :confused:

tri

Oct. 1, 2007, 06:31 PM

Nope, you said it more than once. You said it might be the only choice you could make because of the circumstance of, I believe it was, the sire of that filly you bred.

DownYonder

Oct. 1, 2007, 06:40 PM

I would never had said such a thing. That filly is sired by Feiner Stern, who isn't even approved by ISR/ONA - but is approved by plenty of other registries, including Oldenburg (GOV), AHS, RPSI, Westfalen, and Swedish. I had PLENTY of options for getting that filly approved, and in fact, she is now in the Oldenburg pre-mare book - which is just fine with me.

misita

Oct. 1, 2007, 08:04 PM

Misita- Nick B. was at our BWP inspection doing the running and he spoke VERY highly of your boy :) Best of luck, It sounds like things are working out for your boy and the others!!

Thank you for that!!!:) I know he's fabulous...but I have rose colored glasses at times. All my friends tell me he's the best....But their worried about me never speaking to them again. Just kidding!!!! It is fabulous to hear someone not emotionally involved with me or my boy likes him too. So now we're moving full speed ahead and he's still healthy today, I just talked with Helmut, and he's in full training!! Yahoo! Thank you for your good wishes!

Erin

Oct. 1, 2007, 09:31 PM

Those of you who are intent on making this into a personal snipefest: Stop. Now. This is your one and only warning before the thread gets closed, which will leave you bereft of sniping opportunities. And you certainly don't want that, now do you?

tri

Oct. 2, 2007, 04:29 PM

Hocus Focus

Oct. 2, 2007, 09:26 PM

I am curious if any nonbiased comments could be made on who is looking like the favorite in the test this year. Any predictions at this point who will come out on top?

DownYonder

Oct. 3, 2007, 05:41 AM

Ok Erin. Downyonder lets not fight. It was a long time ago that we talked and I guess it was a problem with the dam's sire then instead of the the sire. You told me that the Old inspectors said she would have made the main marebook if there wasn't some sort of problem with his approval or something to that effect. I am not dissing the quality of your mare. Maybe you just meant that you would have to go with the Oldna if the Verband pulled out of the U.S. after the brand issue or maybe you were just talking about options.

ISR/ONA would have accepted my filly's dam into its MMB, Oldenburg would not because her sire was a non-approved Hanoverian. No matter, I still chose Oldenburg because - and I repeat - no one is going to put the Oldenburg brand on my foals without permission of the Oldenburg Verband. So just because I said that ISR/ONA would accept my mare into its MMB doesn't mean that I intended to go there. At any rate, we are very far off topic so I am considering this conversation closed.