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View Full Version : So Frustrated! Final Update last pg! Thank You All! Got her Papers!!!



LivviesMom
Aug. 27, 2007, 02:27 PM
I don't know what to do..
I've been trying to register my filly since she was a weanling. Was told there was no paperwork for her or DNA on file for her sire, so I gave up.
Then through this forim I found out there was a live foal report. and they had a forzen blood sample! So I continued with the registration process with the help of the breeder, even though it was going to cost $500 more!

So everything had been submitted, just waiting on the DNA for the mare.
Now I am being told even though all the DNA matched my filly, that the mare they have registered as As Is Liz is not my filles Dam. When they compared the pictures I submitted against there's it didn't match. My filles Dam has NO white. The Jockey club says that the mare they have registered as As Is Liz, has a white star!
I called previously, and gave them the tattoo number I had and was told the mare has no white markings, we then compared cowlicks and verified that the mare was indeed As Is Liz! I'm so frustrated I don't knwo what to do anymore...

Sorry I had to vent.. Do you all ever have this much difficulty with the Registration of your horses?? I'm going to have to go and re-read the tattoo and have a closer look at her face and cowlicks.. I really needed these papers by the end of September to show her in the TB line classes.

Do I have any options??
UPDATE*** So it looks like there is a cluster of small white hairs in the middle of her forehead!! We were able to get the tattoo-- Q14362
Can anyone look that tattoo up?

Thanks!


Thanks

Norcrest
Aug. 27, 2007, 08:34 PM
What paperwork exactly do you have and what is on file with the JC? A live foal report is done when a foal is born but do you or the breeder have the stallion certificate? Without that you wont be able to register the foal either. Is the stallion deceased? If not DNA will have to be done on him, a frozen blood sample is not the same as DNA (why I dont know)
Do you not have the dam's JC papers and that is why the JC is going with swirls and marking and tattoo #? You may need to reread the tattoo or take pictures of it and send that off to the JC and see if they can ID the mare for you. I have never had problems trying to register a foal but can imagine how frustrating it can be. If you would like you can PM me and I will try to help.

LivviesMom
Aug. 27, 2007, 10:30 PM
What paperwork exactly do you have and what is on file with the JC? A live foal report is done when a foal is born but do you or the breeder have the stallion certificate? Without that you wont be able to register the foal either. Is the stallion deceased? If not DNA will have to be done on him, a frozen blood sample is not the same as DNA (why I dont know)
Do you not have the dam's JC papers and that is why the JC is going with swirls and marking and tattoo #? You may need to reread the tattoo or take pictures of it and send that off to the JC and see if they can ID the mare for you. I have never had problems trying to register a foal but can imagine how frustrating it can be. If you would like you can PM me and I will try to help.

Everything is done and submitted. Live Foal, Mares Bred, Stallion Certificate was released. The sires blood was pulled and tested. I submitted my fillies sample along with her dam. I submitted photos of the mare. I KNOW the mare is correct, we have the right mare. I don't own the mare, the breeder no longer owns her either, but I am in contact with both.
It's just been such a long frustrating procees. When I got that phone call today I wanted to scream and cry at the same time.

The woman who owns the mare is going to try to read the tattoo for me again.
Thing is.. all the DNA matches! but they are saying that it is not the right mare. the mare they shows as As Is Liz apparently has a star. All of the cowlick locations match perfectly too. I'm hoping this is just a mistake...

If you can help at all it would be GREATLY appreciated!

Slewdledo
Aug. 28, 2007, 12:39 AM
The DNA match should make the physical ID of the mare secondary. (The mare does have a DNA sample that's been posted to the JC - which means they did verify her parentage.)

What did the JC advise you to do?

**Just looked up your filly's registration status - said the only holdup to registration is DNA verification of the dam. So I'd think you just wait.

A few years ago we had to pull hair on a Canadian-bred mare and send it in to the JC.

Another time we bought a mare from somebody who'd mixed up their mares. THAT was fun. :mad:

It's no picnic dealing with the JC but I've never NOT been able to register one.

Blueshadow
Aug. 28, 2007, 01:38 AM
Agreed with Slewledo - not easy to deal with the JC but I've never not been able to register, even under very difficult circumstances (no DNA on dam, for example, who was in Canada for a number of years).

Face markings not matching WILL be a problem. If I'm understanding your post correctly, sire DNA is a problem, but then Slewledo's post suggests it all comes down to verifying the dam. Is the dam Grey/Roan colored? i.e. is it possible that her color markings have changed over time? I DID have this problem once before with the JC, but ultimately they gave it up (greys change color over time...).

LivviesMom
Aug. 28, 2007, 09:36 AM
DNA is posted on both sire and dam.
When they went to compare the photos I submitted to the ones they have, they called and said the pictures they have show a white star. But the JC also considers white hairs a star..

My filly has roaning as she is Rabicano but the mare is SOLID chestnut. We ar going to try to re-read the tattoo, and take close ups of her face and tattoo as well..

Evalee Hunter
Aug. 28, 2007, 05:14 PM
Have you tried contacting the Thoroughbred Racing Protective Bureau?

http://www.trpb.com/

I do NOT have personal experience with them, but it is my understanding that they photograph horses when they tattoo them & that might throw more light on this subject. I do personally know of cases where the Jockey Club put an incorrect description of markings on registration papers.

LivviesMom
Aug. 28, 2007, 06:58 PM
UPDATE!

UPDATE*** So it looks like there is a cluster of small white hairs in the middle of her forehead!! We were able to get the tattoo-- Q14362
Can anyone look that tattoo up?

Slewdledo
Aug. 28, 2007, 10:17 PM
I'd think that would be something to contact the JC about. You're paying enough to get her registered (and they've already got your money) - they can certainly take a couple minutes and run the tattoo.

LivviesMom
Aug. 28, 2007, 11:37 PM
I'd think that would be something to contact the JC about. You're paying enough to get her registered (and they've already got your money) - they can certainly take a couple minutes and run the tattoo.

LOL yes you would think that..its been an ongoing battle for almost 6 months. They originally told me that there was no paperwork for my filly at all, and that they had no DNA on the sire, Then I found out through COTH that there was a live foal report and DNA on the sire the whole time..its just been frustrating, I guess I just don't 100% trust them so I'd like to see if anyone else comes up with the mare. Its been back and forth and wuite confusing at times. I'll run it with them anyway just curious to see if anyone else comes up with the mare.

K~2
Aug. 29, 2007, 08:51 AM
So there are no Jockey Club papers for the dam? There should be a detailed description on them.

LivviesMom
Aug. 29, 2007, 10:00 AM
So there are no Jockey Club papers for the dam? There should be a detailed description on them.

There are papers on the mare somewhere, I don't know if the breeder still has them or not, but it is difficult to get hold of her although shes been a huge help. She no longer owns the mare. The woman I bought the filly from has the mare, but she does not have papers..

jennywho
Aug. 29, 2007, 02:36 PM
Contact the TRBP, www.trpb.com. They were extremely helpful with a problem I was having regarding a horse/trainer issue. I'm sure they would be more than willing to work with you. They are a lot less of a hassle than the JC, which is funny, because they have a lot more authority.

LivviesMom
Aug. 29, 2007, 02:58 PM
SO JC and CTHS are insisting that the mare has a Star but the tattoo number is very very close, but won't tell me which digit is off.. I am so so frustrated.
They're telling me I should find who has her papers..good luck! She raced years ago and has changed owners since. What I find strange - how can you sell a horse with papers and the markings don't match. even worse is the owner/breeder of the mare at the time filed the live foal report for HER stallion.
One more twist, I'm being told by CTHS that the breeder of my filly is *not* who bred her..funny. I still contact her occasionally with photos of Livvie, she was the one who sent me foal pictures of my girl.. I need a drink...
I don't know I'm just so frustrated with it all.

I'll try the TRPB...

Woody04
Aug. 29, 2007, 04:24 PM
Do you have a photo of the Tattoo? I had the hardest time trying to read my guys, till I took a picture and had a good look on my monitor. I must have asked the JC to check 20 possible letter/number combinations! It didnt help we had no idea how old the guy was!

Woody04

findeight
Aug. 29, 2007, 05:24 PM
What I find strange - how can you sell a horse with papers and the markings don't match. even worse is the owner/breeder of the mare at the time filed the live foal report for HER stallion.
One more twist, I'm being told by CTHS that the breeder of my filly is *not* who bred her..funny. I still contact her occasionally with photos of Livvie, she was the one who sent me foal pictures of my girl.. I need a drink...
I don't know I'm just so frustrated with it all.


Well people sell horses that sort of resemble the one named on "their" papers all the time. They do it to cheat. Problem is when the horse resells, that seller is not trying to cheat but you still have the wrong horse. Sort of passes the problem along.

Far as the breeder...did that lady actually own the mare when the foal dropped? Usually that is the breeder for record keeping purposes. Sometimes there are ownership issues that result in somebody who does not have physical possesion of the mare at the time of foaling still being the owner of record on the papers and therefore the breeder of record.

This is why breeders need to keep the paperwork current if they plan on ever selling anything they breed...and it happens in all of the breeds.

There are also "breeders" who stay on the shady side and, despite the fact they seem very nice and friendly, they are just plain old cheats and they lie at the drop of a checkbook. They can't register their stuff because they aren't what they say they are.

LivviesMom
Aug. 30, 2007, 10:00 AM
Well people sell horses that sort of resemble the one named on "their" papers all the time. They do it to cheat. Problem is when the horse resells, that seller is not trying to cheat but you still have the wrong horse. Sort of passes the problem along.

Far as the breeder...did that lady actually own the mare when the foal dropped? Usually that is the breeder for record keeping purposes. Sometimes there are ownership issues that result in somebody who does not have physical possesion of the mare at the time of foaling still being the owner of record on the papers and therefore the breeder of record.

This is why breeders need to keep the paperwork current if they plan on ever selling anything they breed...and it happens in all of the breeds.

There are also "breeders" who stay on the shady side and, despite the fact they seem very nice and friendly, they are just plain old cheats and they lie at the drop of a checkbook. They can't register their stuff because they aren't what they say they are.

Yes the woman who bred my filly was the owner of the mare at the time of foaling, she was the one who filed the Live Foal Report, but apparently not the breeder as per the JC.. She also owned the Stallion.It just gets more confusing..

I called TRPB and they were extremely helpful and understanding. They are sending me paperwork and we are taking photos of the Tattoo. So we should get this resolved in a few weeks hopefully.

summerhorse
Aug. 30, 2007, 10:33 AM
Yes the woman who bred my filly was the owner of the mare at the time of foaling, she was the one who filed the Live Foal Report, but apparently not the breeder as per the JC.. She also owned the Stallion.It just gets more confusing..

I called TRPB and they were extremely helpful and understanding. They are sending me paperwork and we are taking photos of the Tattoo. So we should get this resolved in a few weeks hopefully.

So who do they have as the breeder? Unless the actual breeder put down someone else as the owner of the mare then why would they have another person? Did you pay for the tattoo look up? I've never heard of someone getting such a run around when they pay for the look up, usually they try every combination to match the horse. Can you get pictures of the mare from when she raced and see if she has a star or just white hairs?

Norcrest
Aug. 30, 2007, 11:11 AM
Per the JC website they have this information for the filly:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below are the results from your search.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Search Results
Non-registered Thoroughbred, Registration is Pending
Name: Love and Laughter
Dam: As Is Liz
Foaling Year: 2005
Sex: Filly
Breeder: Kari Levett
DNA Sample: Posted





Recent Registration Activity
Form Type Status
Application Pending --DNA kit in process for Dam (Hair Kit)
Live Foal/No Foal Complete
Service Certificate Complete

But for the mare they have:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below are the results from your search.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Search Results
Registered Thoroughbred
Name: As Is Liz
Dam: Lentella
Foaling Year: 1987
Sex: Mare
Breeder: Mrs. E. From
DNA Sample: Posted





Something just isnt adding up, as long as the dam is DNA'd there should be no problem getting the foal registered unless the DNA of the dam and foal dont match for some reason.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

LivviesMom
Aug. 30, 2007, 11:20 AM
So who do they have as the breeder? Unless the actual breeder put down someone else as the owner of the mare then why would they have another person? Did you pay for the tattoo look up? I've never heard of someone getting such a run around when they pay for the look up, usually they try every combination to match the horse. Can you get pictures of the mare from when she raced and see if she has a star or just white hairs?

The owner of the mare was also the Breeder. No question about it. I guess technically I *did* pay for a look up, JC has accepted my $775 registration fee weeks ago.You would think they would be more willing to help..:no: They are adamant that the star is solid...

LivviesMom
Aug. 30, 2007, 11:34 AM
Per the JC website they have this information for the filly:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below are the results from your search.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Search Results
Non-registered Thoroughbred, Registration is Pending
Name: Love and Laughter
Dam: As Is Liz
Foaling Year: 2005
Sex: Filly
Breeder: Kari Levett
DNA Sample: Posted





Recent Registration Activity
Form Type Status
Application Pending --DNA kit in process for Dam (Hair Kit)
Live Foal/No Foal Complete
Service Certificate Complete

But for the mare they have:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Below are the results from your search.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Search Results
Registered Thoroughbred
Name: As Is Liz
Dam: Lentella
Foaling Year: 1987
Sex: Mare
Breeder: Mrs. E. From
DNA Sample: Posted





Something just isnt adding up, as long as the dam is DNA'd there should be no problem getting the foal registered unless the DNA of the dam and foal dont match for some reason.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

hmmm wondering if the mares ownership was never changed??There is no way the mares breeder is the breeder of my filly..the dam was foaled in British Columbia Canada. The DNA sample is aggravating and confusing. I submitted a sample. Not sure if they compared the one I submitted to a blood sample that they already had for her? because if thats the case and the DNA matches, there should be no issue with the markings at all.. I would think a direct DNA match would trump reported markings..
I'm assuming, since they won't tell me, that they only have the DNA sample I submitted, and are just stuck on the fact that the pictures I submitted don't match theirs... I need a drink..:(

Norcrest
Aug. 30, 2007, 11:43 AM
The JC lists the breeder of your filly as Kari Levett. The DNA sample is posted for both your filly and the mare As Is Liz. They dont use blood for DNA so a mane hairs had to be pulled from As Is Liz as well as new photos taken for her DNA to be posted. In order to DNA your filly I would *assume* that the DNA would have to have matched both the sire and dam...but we all know how far *assuming* gets you.
I would be questioning the JC as to why the dams DNA is posted and they are still asking for a new hairkit to be done? That is highly unusual...unless the filly's DNA didnt match As Is Liz and they are trying to figure out what mare really is the dam.

EponaRoan
Aug. 30, 2007, 12:00 PM
Per the JC website they have this information for the filly:

Search Results
Non-registered Thoroughbred, Registration is Pending
Name: Love and Laughter
Dam: As Is Liz
Foaling Year: 2005
Sex: Filly
Breeder: Kari Levett
DNA Sample: Posted

Recent Registration Activity
Form Type Status
Application Pending --DNA kit in process for Dam (Hair Kit)
Live Foal/No Foal Complete
Service Certificate Complete

But for the mare they have:

Search Results
Registered Thoroughbred
Name: As Is Liz
Dam: Lentella
Foaling Year: 1987
Sex: Mare
Breeder: Mrs. E. From
DNA Sample: Posted

Something just isnt adding up, as long as the dam is DNA'd there should be no problem getting the foal registered unless the DNA of the dam and foal dont match for some reason.

To me it sounds like the dam's DNA isn't really on file or is being questioned based on it being pending under the filly's info.

But who knows. It's certainly a mess.

LivviesMom
Sep. 7, 2007, 11:54 PM
So, I ordered a tattoo look up through the Jockey Club website, gave them the age and color of the mare plus her name..I got the tattoo Q14352 back.
We took photos of the tattoo and lo and behold like we knew all along, the tattoo matches the mare AS IS LIZ.My filles Dam.
Plus the Breeder the JC has listed for the mare is correct, the ownership was never changed when Missy was sold, so the JC listed the dams breeder as her breeder since she would still be the last owner on record. Dam was probably sold without papers to keep her from racing again.

End result? we have the correct mare like we knew all along! I'm sending all the photos to TRPB tomorrow and should have this all cleared up shortly!
I'm guessing the markings were recorded incorrectly or the JC pulled the wrong photos..

Thanks for all the help!

JoJo2006
Sep. 9, 2007, 10:10 PM
I feel your pain!!! The JC are probably the most unhelpful people to deal with. I can't believe that they won't overlook the marking error when the DNA matches....so maddening!!! My suggestion would be to track down the mare and get them to do a correction on her JC registration papers. Its so stupid that all this hassle is based on photos that were taken when she was a foal!!!
I hope you get it sorted.

LivviesMom
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:11 PM
Well, it turns out that the mare we know as "As Is Liz" is actually "Redwoods beauty" The tattoo is Q14852 not Q14352!
WOW! I was stunned but we are back on track. TRPB is wonderful. Can't say enough good things about Chris N!
So JC has ordered the file on the "new" mare, they should have it Friday and will compare the photos I sent on to the ones they have..Dear God please let everything be OK. I don't think I can go through this again! but the markings on the new mare do match the dam...scattered white hairs on the forehead and white tail hairs... fingers crossed!
But this means having to re-do the Live foal and mares bred reports....
I'm just praying we get this done in time! I'm so anxious for this to be complete!

DeeThbd
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:15 PM
Good luck! You're the one aiming for the Royal, right?
Big maple leaf waving here!
Dee

LivviesMom
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:19 PM
YEP! if all goes well.. for the TB classes.
I can't find a pedigree on Redwoods Beauty though..crap..now I'm curious to see what her dam side actually is!

Xctrygirl
Oct. 2, 2007, 04:57 PM
OK Here's the page for Redwoods Beauty:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=&h=REDWOODS+BEAUTY&g=5&p=0&f=1&l=

I'll say it again.. *IF* you cannot find a horse on Pedigree Query, use the Breeder's Cup Nomination Verification page:

https://nominations.breederscup.com/bcFoalVerificationForm.cfm?init=1

Usually they're in there. As with this Redwood mare I had to add both her and her dam to Pedigree Query and I did it in under 2 mins thanks to the BC nominations site.

~Emily

LivviesMom
Oct. 2, 2007, 08:38 PM
OK Here's the page for Redwoods Beauty:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/index.php?query_type=horse&search_bar=&h=REDWOODS+BEAUTY&g=5&p=0&f=1&l=

I'll say it again.. *IF* you cannot find a horse on Pedigree Query, use the Breeder's Cup Nomination Verification page:

https://nominations.breederscup.com/bcFoalVerificationForm.cfm?init=1

Usually they're in there. As with this Redwood mare I had to add both her and her dam to Pedigree Query and I did it in under 2 mins thanks to the BC nominations site.

~Emily

Thats awesome thank you. I've book marked the site for future reference

LivviesMom
Oct. 30, 2007, 10:05 AM
Ok so I have My fillies JC papers in my hot little hands! Picked them up yesterday from the Canadian Thoroughbred Horse Society!!! WOO HOO!!!

I just want to thank everyone in this forum for all of the help/advice I've been given..

I would never have been able to get them if it wasn't for one COTH'er who went a step further and found the Live Foal Report for my filly that I was told never existed.. I wish I could remember who it was cause I owe that person BIG TIME!!

So Thanks again to all of you for putting up with all of my questions!!
We are all set for the Royal. Liv is looking Phenomenal and should do very well in her TB class.. I'm very excited.

Also thanks to Lisa O'Neill at the Jockey Club who worked her butt off knowing I was under a tight deadline! And also to Chris Neddo at TRPB for speeding up the process and verifying the tattoo from the photos.. I also owe both of these ladies big time!!

Jennifer.

DeeThbd
Oct. 30, 2007, 01:35 PM
Good luck Jennifer! Please let us know how the Royal goes!
Dee

millwrightmomma
Oct. 31, 2007, 09:28 PM
Glad to see Livvies Mom finally received the papers.
Livvie came to us with her Dam, whom we all thought was As Is Liz.
As Is Liz as it turns out is Redwood's Beauty,.......umm, but the foal was definitely from that mare.
This is all more special , because I run Cannington Horse Rescue with my family, and Livvie was adopted from us, by Her new mom 1 1/2 years ago.
Livvie was bred to jump and do dressage.........time will tell I guess.
She is a looker now, big and gorgeous.

I will be down at the Royal to see her, wishing her and her new mom the best. :)
I love happy endings :)