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View Full Version : Clinton Anderson- FRAUD!



tx3dayeventer
Aug. 21, 2007, 10:59 PM
Did ya'll get as pissed as I did watching that joker work with Stephen Bradley???!?!?!?! I was SCREAMING at the TV when CA ripped Stephen's horse mouth off after the fence circling in a 5 meter circle. GRRR!!! Who the hell does CA think he is telling Stephen Bradley, Pan Am gold medalist, how to train his horse??? Did anyone else notice that after CA got off the horse was lathered and dripping sweat and when SB got back on his horse was not sweaty and lathered??

nature
Aug. 21, 2007, 11:33 PM
Although I did not agree with all that Clinton Anderson did on the show, I stongly feel that no matter what level you ride at, you can always learn something new. Even if it is what NOT to do, people who are real horseman (woman) will agree that NO ONE ever knows it all. That is what is so amazing about the horse, you never stop learning. I hope you keep your eyes and ears open........and will consider the option of continuing to learn no matter what level you achieve.......

prudence
Aug. 21, 2007, 11:41 PM
It seems like the circle is the solution to everything! I agree, the horse didn't need fooling with and he did catch the horse who appeared pretty well-trained already in the mouth a few times. :(

pwynnnorman
Aug. 22, 2007, 07:04 AM
It seems like the circle is the solution to everything! I agree, the horse didn't need fooling with and he did catch the horse who appeared pretty well-trained already in the mouth a few times. :(

No, the circle is the tool to wear them out and solve everything by making them too tired to care. IMO, all those *&^%^$^% guys have returned to the original concept of "breaking" horses as the basis of their technique. Break their spirits by riding them into the ground in awkward positions while drilling your ass into their backs...:mad::mad:

Did anyone see the dressage and x-c Part One? I fell asleep halfway through Part Two.

pinkngreen
Aug. 22, 2007, 07:31 AM
What are you guys talking about? Was this a show on TV or online?

tommygirl
Aug. 22, 2007, 08:50 AM
It was on tv. Can't remember which channel, probably RFD.

It was ugly though. I am sure SB was thinking "That's going to take 2 weeks to fix! From what I understand from "real world" western riders/trainers, CA is not well received among the professionals.

Gnalli
Aug. 22, 2007, 08:59 AM
I am by no means a pro, but CA lost any interest for me about 5 minutes after seeing him the first time. He was trying to get a horse to lead and he is facing the horse and jangling the lead line so that it would flip up and hit the horse in the chin. To me, that said right there that he didn't have a clue and I have not watched him since. Jumping Jeehosephat-a little child with no clue how to lead would do that, surely a grown man should know better.

Bluey
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:05 AM
Yes, it was very painful to watch.:(

CA doesn't has ANY idea of how a horse is supposed to move, at all, western or english.
He gets them so far behind the leg that it is very hard for anyone else to get them going again.

Sure, the horses are very soft and flexible, but totally lack impusion, which is a terrible way to try to ride ANY horse, cutting, reining or jumping.

Those horses he "works" with seem to end going like a car you take the gas pedal off and have to keep hitting the lever with a brick to get it moving.
The horses seem to go in spurts of scooting, hit and miss if they will be balanced or strung out with their bodies, disconnected in front with his overbending.
There is a video showing that perfectly, but it doesn't seem to link in here.
Ok, got it to work.
You can see the poor horses lack impulsion so bad they can't even stay up with a slow cow, keep getting further and further behind.
Very ineffective and here used for their showing-off logo?

http://downunderhorsemanship.com/Slim for Web.wmv

CA's seat seems very hard on a horse's back, no lightness at all.
I wanted to show him how to do a two point soooo bad.
He evidently has not hear of Caprilli yet.:winkgrin:

CA shows to be talented and with a little basic instruction he would be jumping fine, on a trained horse that he doesn't get to "retrain" his way.
I did like that he mentioned the horse was working maybe a little tired.
He was and what he didn't know to look for, the horse was losing his bascule, getting flat, front end becoming loose, maybe from being tired, maybe from being ridden where he had to be pushed, having lost so much impulsion.
Good that the jumps were low, toward's the end he may have knocked or crashed higher ones.

The way he was teaching that fellow was very condescending, but that can be chalked off to personality, some people come across as arrogant and don't mean it.

I had to keep doing something else, it was really hard to watch, because it was showing how ignorant CA was of so much technical stuff that most beginners know

I have seen the same with some other clinicians, especially NH types.
They lack the basics, but won't learn, because they don't know what they don't know, so think they are right and everyone else, for centuries, was wrong.:confused:

catknsn
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:14 AM
I missed this particular performance but am not surprised. We had a CA devotee at my last barn and all he did was turn the darn horse in little circles. Not surprisingly, the second he tried to ride it outside of the arena, it ran off and dumped him. Strange how that one-rein stop does not save your butt when the horse has had enough and is fed up!

JSwan
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:22 AM
Oh man - I missed it. Darn.

I did use his trailer loading video when I was having trouble teaching my horse to self load. It was a pretty desperate measure on my part - but after watching the video my horse does load beautifully.

I wouldn't say he taught me anything new - I'd say that I realized what I was doing wrong - sort of having another set of eyes. I was just getting in the way of a willing horse.

That whole teeny circle stuff reminds me of the "lunge till dead" notion.

On the whole - I'm very unimpressed of any of these NH guys. I think there is always more to learn, so I try and keep an open mind. Unfortunately - I usually walk away disgusted and feeling sorry for the horse. :no:

We can be thankful that he's not walking around half naked like GoOnPullMyFinger PhonyBoy.

GrayMe
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:37 AM
Pleasssse...I need dramamine. Will these egocentric, self in-flated, video selling, whack jocks ever wise up? That horse will probably need chiro work after his "give me your face" sesssion.

pinkngreen
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:41 AM
I don't get RFDTV any more and my husband is glad. He told me if I was going to watch those types of shows I was to do it with my mouth shut. Of course I couldn't do that so I had to ban myself from watching the Parelli show and CA!

So why was CA on SB's horse anyway? Was he supposed to be helping him with some problem? I really wish I could have seen that.

LisaB
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:53 AM
I felt so incredibly sorry for Stephen! What a lovely horse.
The first thing I thought of when CA pulled that bullcrap was, 'Does he know a half-halt is much more effective?????' CA is a total ass. Since Stephen was being kind and generous as always and then CA had to pull a macho stunt like that. Thank God the horse just had a snaffle in his mouth and CA didn't have his SPURS (can you imagine???) on.
Poor Stephen, Poor horse!

FrittSkritt
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:58 AM
I did use his trailer loading video when I was having trouble teaching my horse to self load. It was a pretty desperate measure on my part - but after watching the video my horse does load beautifully.


I also tried the trailer loading video and it did absolutely nothing for my TB... he thought getting "worked" in circles was great fun and actually preferred it to getting on the trailer and 'not working.' :o

denny
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:28 AM
I heard a good description of these people: "Simpsons catering to other Simpsons"

tx3dayeventer
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:30 AM
No, the circle is the tool to wear them out and solve everything by making them too tired to care. IMO, all those *&^%^$^% guys have returned to the original concept of "breaking" horses as the basis of their technique. Break their spirits by riding them into the ground in awkward positions while drilling your ass into their backs...:mad::mad:

Did anyone see the dressage and x-c Part One? I fell asleep halfway through Part Two.

I could not agree with you more!!!!!!!!!!

I also saw Part one and it was extremely boring. CA did not attempt to do anything but stand there and say "right-o" or "ok, mate". I was happy that they showed XC on TV so it wasnt that bad. CA did not try and hijack SB's horse or anything exciting (re:stupid) like that.

bornfreenowexpensive
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:38 AM
I heard a good description of these people: "Simpsons catering to other Simpsons"


That's pretty good! I've been to a few clinics....and know a few NH people. I wouldn't say it is all crap....but it is NOTHING new. All very basic horse sense and things good horsemen have been doing for centurys. Most of the good NH people I would say are all just good horsemen...not NH or any particular method. The difference is a good horsemen looks at many of these things as tools. They are tools you reach for when solving different problems and NOT all tools fit for each problem. You have do what works for a particular horse. And unfortunately, many of the devotees do not have enough horse sense to know what tool to use when or when to quit and try something else....or when a method isn't suited for a particular horse both because of that horse's temperment and the goals of the rider (what I want in a trail/pleasure horse is different from what I want in my event horse).

I try to be open minded and learn from different people but if someone tells me this is the ONLY way to deal with an issue with ALL horses....that turns me off right away.

NRB
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:41 AM
I did not see the footage of SB. I did watch the footage provided in the link in the above post. Leaves me feeling a bit queasy. It always amazes me what horses put up with, and what willing creatures they are. CA's methods reminded me of the Rokkur controversy in the dressage world. WHY overflex a horses neck like CA does? What a horrible thing to do to an animal and call it "training"

eventer_mi
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:42 AM
After watching that little video clip...

...can we say "rolkur", anybody? Okay, okay, at least Anky rides them forward off her seat and has more talent than CA (whatever you may think of Anky and her training methods, she DOES have talent), why did those poor horses that he was riding in the video clip spend most of their time with their heads tucked into their chests? Is this normal in CA techniques?

Interesting. I didn't see the show with Stephen Bradley, but we have quite a few NH fans at my current boarding barn, and I have yet to see their horses improve in relaxation, stretching, improving their balance, etc. They DO a mean round pen, though ;^).

...but like someone said it best on the dressage forum:

Which is the Olympic sport?
Natural Horsemanship
Eventing

Lawn Ornament
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:44 AM
Ya know, when I saw Clinton Anderson willing to try jumping for the first time and do a decent job really, I thought, "wow, maybe I've been too hard on this guy"... THEN he did his one-rein stop/hyperflexion crap and I, too, was screaming at the tv. First of all, the horse did not accelerate when Stephen was riding, only when Clinton was jumping on his own and rushing to the fences. Then to jerk the poor horse around inside the grid exercise, ugh... recipe for disaster... poor Stephen... poor horse!

kansasgal
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:49 AM
I'm wondering, what was Stephen Bradly doing on a show with CA?
My friend, who is an avid dressage rider, and a lifelong horseperson, is using CA techniques/ groundwork with her warmblood filly. She seems happy with the results. She's pretty much a CA groupy at this point.....
She has lent me a couple of his DVD's on groundwork, and I feel that a couple of things really helped me with my horse. But I wouldn't buy the whole package.

It's just refreshing to see somebody in addition to PP being picked apart.

Best wishes from Kansas.

Glenbaer
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:54 AM
Stepping up as devil's advocate for a second, what do people think about David and Karen O'Connor teaming up with Pat Parelli and his wife?

In regards to NH, some techniques are good, some techniques are bad, but the principles of proper commnication and respect are the end goal. Yes, these may be the "basic foundation" of training, but it honestly seems to be the basic foundation that the majority of trainers and riders are skipping. Go to almost any event, clinic, or training facility/barn, and you will see many more out-of-control horses that walk all over (or pounce on) their owners, than you will properly behaved, responsive, easy-to-handle horses.

I am familiar with several top event trainers who speak quite highly of some NH principles, and regularly incorporate the same groundwork, the same roundpenning, and the same circles into their program. To speak from personal experience as well as to reiterate what I have heard from said trainers, when NH principles are properly done, not only are they easy for the horse and handler, but are some of the most effective ideas out there.

pandorasboxx
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:58 AM
I did use his trailer loading video when I was having trouble teaching my horse to self load. It was a pretty desperate measure on my part - but after watching the video my horse does load beautifully.

Same here. Had numerous loading problems, getting worse each time until the final straw was her not loading to attend a "loading problem clinic". So picked up the CA loading dvd on ebay, and within a day she was self loading. I can't say anything about his other techniques since I don't follow any of the big name gurus but the loading dvd worked for us.

Sarabeth
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:02 AM
Stepping up as devil's advocate for a second, what do people think about David and Karen O'Connor teaming up with Pat Parelli and his wife? It didn't last long, and neither side is speaking about it anymore...looks like it was mostly a PR maneuver & photo op, like the Parelli session with Walter Zettl.

All GOOD horsemanship is based on natural principles and working "with" the horse to get him to do what you want. When the Parellis, CA, and their ilk use the phrase "Natural Horsemanship", it is nothing but a marketing slogan, and to slyly infer that the rest of us are cruel. Horsepucky!

purplnurpl
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:05 AM
all this bull crap makes me crazy.

starting with the freakin mule lady
Clinton Anderson
and the freakin Pepperonis.

What the hell is Natural Horsemanship anyway???
I call it simply, training.

story:
My TB has trouble standing still when I mount sometimes. Usually like the frist ride at a show or something. If I try to make him stand....well, it's ugly. I let him gig for 10 seconds and then he's fine.

My step dad prints out all this shit about standing while mounting from Clinton Anderson's website. Whatever. I ignore it all and Step Dad keeps pushing it on me.

fast forward 6 months. Step dad gets a mule. mule won't stand for mounting. He asks me to help. you know what I said? "Go buy a DVD from Clinton Anderson. Apparently he knows how to make them stand and I don't."


and for the OCs. I lost all respect for them when they teamed up with the Pepperonis. But you know? They don't work together any longer. So maybe they figured out the Ps are crack pots.

and what are the OCs Pepperoni techniques anyhow?? Dragging the babies over XC jumps in hand. Guess what....that's no f'n natural horsemanship. anyone with half a brain should know that in hand is always a good way to start out. duh.

give me a freakin break!!!!
(I started that Pepperoni thread on the Dressage forum. and told about the Mule Lady on Off Course)
It's been building.
sorry for the vent.

Ja Da Dee
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:05 AM
Stepping up as devil's advocate for a second, what do people think about David and Karen O'Connor teaming up with Pat Parelli and his wife?

I saw PP and DO'c on RFD during that time, and was embarrased for DO'c. PP was hooting it up to the crowd, and then ride one of DO'c's horses over some small jumps... I had to look away.



In regards to NH, some techniques are good, some techniques are bad, but the principles of proper commnication and respect are the end goal.


I agree there is good horsemanship and bad horsemanship, keep the gold, dump the mud, but those that need to cut someone down to lift themselves up, I have very little time for. I do have a friend who was helped with trailer loading, and changing some general nervousnes with her gelding by working with a J.Lyons trainer for a while.

Re CA, I watched him on RFD once, and when he went into bending the neck to disengage the hindquarters, I turned the channel. I want my horses hindquarters engaged.

ravenclaw
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:09 AM
I was wondering if the Parelli/O' Connor thing was still going on or if they had "broken up." I haven't heard anything about it for a while.

I didn't see the Clinton Anderson show with Stephen Bradley, but I have seen several other Clinton Anderson shows. In general, I'm not impressed with his riding methods but I think the groundwork he does is pretty good.

caffeinated
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:21 AM
Did ya'll get as pissed as I did watching that joker work with Stephen Bradley???!?!?!?! I was SCREAMING at the TV when CA ripped Stephen's horse mouth off after the fence circling in a 5 meter circle. GRRR!!! Who the hell does CA think he is telling Stephen Bradley, Pan Am gold medalist, how to train his horse??? Did anyone else notice that after CA got off the horse was lathered and dripping sweat and when SB got back on his horse was not sweaty and lathered??

remember that the final product that gets on TV is heavily edited. A lady on another board described that whole process as her horse was used for a CA episode- they cut the episode out of a period of days of work. She also said that CA encouraged some bad behavior so he'd have an "example" for the TV show, and various other things.

So the clip of SB getting back on his horse may have actually been taken from the start of the session, or even from a completely different day...

Catalina
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:24 AM
I think the underlying principles in a lot of the NH kooks are sound and good horsemanship. But, then they start seeing $$$$ and everything gets lost in all the hoopla and razzle dazzle :eek:.

caffeinated
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:27 AM
There is a video showing that perfectly, but it doesn't seem to link in here.
Ok, got it to work.
You can see the poor horses lack impulsion so bad they can't even stay up with a slow cow, keep getting further and further behind.
Very ineffective and here used for their showing-off logo?

http://downunderhorsemanship.com/Slim for Web.wmv



yeek. why would you want a cow horse so... overbent? It seems to put the horse at the mercy of the rider, and always thought good cowhorses were taught to think and respond to the cow on their own (how can they do that if they're looking at the ground?)

Not that that has a thing to do with eventing... but still...

TheOtherHorse
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:39 AM
I use some of the CA/NH methods to start my greenies on the ground, to establish respect and work ethic. However, once I start riding them, the NH is done. It is NOT compatible with any english riding disicplines. It is quite sad that CA thinks he can go and "fix" event horses. I'm sure he did much more damage than fixing. I didn't see the show, but I remember watching his show with that dressage trainer from Ohio. Clinton was riding two dressage trained WBs, pulling on their mouths, doing his flexing exercises continuously. It was sad. :no:

My thoughts on the trailer loading (and most NH) methods are that they are based on what motivates lazy stock horses, and generally don't work as well with TBs who view work as a reward and rest as an insult.

tx3dayeventer
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:42 AM
I was working with KO'C in Ocala when they were all buddy-buddy with PP. They had a pretty large falling out! I think the O'Cs realized what a JOKE PP is and that they did not want to be associated with him or his "smoke and mirrors". That is just what I noticed and is not "out of the horses mouth" or anything. I was also riding in the USET clinics and they had PP come to Longwood and demonstrate and I could hardly stifle my laughter. I mean, here are 15 of the USA's best riders and we are being spoonfeed a bunch of common sense dressed up with a $60 rope halter and a $75 orange stick with a rope on the end. Seriously! Atleast Capt. Phillips never fell into the PP trap of NH.

In my opinion, all they (NH's) are doing is reinventing the wheel and putting a little tire shine on it. The bad part is its not just CA or PP. There is also John Lyons, Martin Black, Craig Cameron, Dennis Reece, Stacy Westfall (dont get me started on her), & Chris Cox (really nice and somewhat knowledgeable and good around a horse, he has some AWESOME cutting horses- he lives about 45 minutes from me). They have all figured out how to market common sense in a pretty appealing package that can turn backyard joe and wonder steed into a polished pair ready to claim world domination or a world title in their chosen discipline. I wish I had thought to package common sense in a pretty package so I could be racking in the millions! (PP has a 3 million dollar Provost bus and 2 18-wheelers not including the 100K horsetrailer)

Glenbaer
Aug. 22, 2007, 12:02 PM
I use some of the CA/NH methods to start my greenies on the ground, to establish respect and work ethic. However, once I start riding them, the NH is done. It is NOT compatible with any english riding disicplines. It is quite sad that CA thinks he can go and "fix" event horses. I'm sure he did much more damage than fixing.

My earlier post regarding some NH principles being beneficial referred exclusively to the ground work, and how it can help out with the youngsters. I am not at all familiar with the under saddle ideas, but from what people are saying here, it seems to be quite the nightmare. Mgfpaints, I believe you're correct, it's just two separate disciplines and overall styles. Then again, we now have Tennessee Walkers doing dressage... ;)

In regards to the money-making business aspect, it is certainly working down here in the south. There is a large western population in this general area, and many, many people are addicted to PP, Chris Cox, and Craig Cameron, enough so that they are spending several thousand to go to personal training clinics at the ranches. None of them seem to catch on to what I'm implying when I explain that I have had two horses that are supposedly "Level 2 Certified Parelli Trained" try to actually kill me...

Anyhow, back to the idea that some techniques are good, some aren't as great, and to each his own. :)

hb
Aug. 22, 2007, 12:25 PM
I did use his trailer loading video when I was having trouble teaching my horse to self load. It was a pretty desperate measure on my part - but after watching the video my horse does load beautifully.

what? There is a video that you can show your horse to teach it how to load???;)

time fault
Aug. 22, 2007, 12:43 PM
lol! I never thought Clint would have the brass to venture for the english horses. His girls had plenty of english horses in for training when I was there, but they didn't have a clue how to train them and he certainly couldn't help them find one. From what it sounds like he couldn't find one even if he used both hands and a map.
Oh well, that's typical Clint for you though. Stereotypical Austrailian man and arrogant to boot. It's no wonder he is selling his place that was built on "family" property.

wlrottge
Aug. 22, 2007, 01:19 PM
I kinda hope that one of these NH nut jobs gets their hands on a good and vindictive eventer one day. Ya know, the horse that isn't inclined to be mistreated and will lash out. Make it a horse with big movement too, so when he bucks, it counts, lol. Not that I want anyone to get hurt, just let the "trainer" learn a lesson for once ;)

lstevenson
Aug. 22, 2007, 01:25 PM
all this bull crap makes me crazy.

starting with the freakin mule lady
Clinton Anderson
and the freakin Pepperonis.

What the hell is Natural Horsemanship anyway???
I call it simply, training.

story:
My TB has trouble standing still when I mount sometimes. Usually like the frist ride at a show or something. If I try to make him stand....well, it's ugly. I let him gig for 10 seconds and then he's fine.

My step dad prints out all this shit about standing while mounting from Clinton Anderson's website. Whatever. I ignore it all and Step Dad keeps pushing it on me.

fast forward 6 months. Step dad gets a mule. mule won't stand for mounting. He asks me to help. you know what I said? "Go buy a DVD from Clinton Anderson. Apparently he knows how to make them stand and I don't."


and for the OCs. I lost all respect for them when they teamed up with the Pepperonis. But you know? They don't work together any longer. So maybe they figured out the Ps are crack pots.

and what are the OCs Pepperoni techniques anyhow?? Dragging the babies over XC jumps in hand. Guess what....that's no f'n natural horsemanship. anyone with half a brain should know that in hand is always a good way to start out. duh.

give me a freakin break!!!!
(I started that Pepperoni thread on the Dressage forum. and told about the Mule Lady on Off Course)
It's been building.
sorry for the vent.



I'm with you purplnurpl!

All of this NH nonsense drives me crazy too. It has NO benefits over common sense, good old fashioned regular training, and is absolutely not compatable in any way to dressage or eventing.

I think only uneducated and gullible people fall for the hype, and their cultlike behavior is so obnoxious! :mad:

I also think it's really funny that NH people claim that their purpose is to create a partnership between horse and rider. When it looks pretty obvious that their horses hate all of the "games" and stupid stuff that they do to them.

Now EVENTING! That creates a true partnership. :yes:

kcooper
Aug. 22, 2007, 01:27 PM
Most of the NH disciples I have met seem to think that NH equals -- don'd discipline your horse; don't yell at your horse; don't make your horse do anything it doesn't want to.

I have met several extremely scary NH "trained" horses who walk right into your space, have no respect for people and are, in my opinion, dangerous due to their lack of boundaries.

LisaB
Aug. 22, 2007, 01:30 PM
Oh wlrott, Winston happily volunteers! Great massive head, neck, shoulders and very wiggly body. And he hauls ass. With a f- off attitude to boot if he doesn't like you.
He did do a f- off to me once. I wanted to go left, he wanted to go right after a jump. I won (that nanosecond). And then he bucked, I was about to land back square, he realized this and bucked again with a hop up, buck, twist, swoosh on landing. Boy, did I go sailing.
You can't muscle him around. You can't say sweet nothings to him. He does what he wants if he thinks it's fun and worthwhile. And he's wicked smart.
Yeah, I would love to go to one of these things and have them do that crap on him.

tommygirl
Aug. 22, 2007, 01:52 PM
was a disgrace. Parelli "techinques" were also pushed on the developing riders sessions bu David and caused major problems for many upper level horses. And yes, proven horses can be confused by that Parelli crap. I saw, first hand, several horses that quit jumping!!!

Those "techniques" may be good on young horses or problem horses, but not on upper level, proven horses. I also saw DO humiliate himself at Rolex with one of the "displays" of horse-man-ship crap

My rant is over...


Stepping up as devil's advocate for a second, what do people think about David and Karen O'Connor teaming up with Pat Parelli and his wife?

snoopy
Aug. 22, 2007, 02:01 PM
was a disgrace. Parelli "techinques" were also pushed on the developing riders sessions bu David and caused major problems for many upper level horses. And yes, proven horses can be confused by that Parelli crap. I saw, first hand, several horses that quit jumping!!!

Those "techniques" may be good on young horses or problem horses, but not on upper level, proven horses. I also saw DO humiliate himself at Rolex with one of the "displays" of horse-man-ship crap

My rant is over...


Oh how this post is SO TRUE!!! The PP association put the O'Connor PR/marketing machine back leaps and bounds. It is a major sore spot with them...try bringing it up and see what their reaction is:eek:;)!!! I still wonder what possesed David to actually demenstrate this cr*p in front of a fairly knowledgable crowd.:confused: I got more of a laugh out of it then anything else....naughty me!!!

TheOtherHorse
Aug. 22, 2007, 02:06 PM
Now EVENTING! That creates a true partnership. :yes:

:yes: I completely agree. My mare does NOT enjoy NH ground work, she acts as if she's insulted that we would have to do such silly stuff. As soon as that jump saddle goes on though, she's like my soul mate. I swear that horse can read my mind, as long as we're doing what she loves. Now to get her to read my mind in dressage... :lol:

KBG Eventer
Aug. 22, 2007, 02:20 PM
I didn't see it even hear about this being on TV. Poor horse. :(

I have never paid much attention except a few years ago to to NH people. I think it is because I don't think I have ever actually met anyone who actually likes it except for one of my trainer uses some of it on her young horses. All of my trainers in the past have thought it was load of crap. However, a few years back my well meaning parents tried to convince me that we should take me then first (and green/naughty) pony to some of the PP stuff. I tried to gently refuse. They told me the O'Connors were afliated with them to try and convince me, and I literally...did not believe it. I still didn't think it was true until a year or so later when I found some old post on here from when they started working with PP. :lol:

Maybe I am confused...but why was SB working with the guy in the first place? Doesn't he know that everyone thinks CA is a whacko?

Renae
Aug. 22, 2007, 02:28 PM
I didn;t see he show being discussed here, but in watching other Clinton Anderson shows and seeing him in person at a few horse expos plus having to sit onmy hands so I wouldn't pull her off the horse and punch her teeth out as I watched a Clinton Anderson wnnabe trainer work a horse at a barn I managed once (she was told to never come back) I have to say his man and his disciplies have some of the most uncaring abusive "training techniques" out there. They are just bullying the horses into submission with backing and circles.

Lawn Ornament
Aug. 22, 2007, 02:43 PM
I didn't see or it even here about this being on TV. Poor horse. :(
Maybe I am confused...but why was SB working with the guy in the first place? Doesn't he know that everyone thinks CA is a whacko?

CA and SB didn't team up, CA's program frequently does interviews/educational stuff about breeding, arena construction, etc. He traveled to Morven Park, briefly described the facilities and then sought a demo rider to represent the sport of Eventing. Personally, I thought it may have been the most boring presentation of Eventing I've ever seen, but the intent was good.

Mariequi
Aug. 22, 2007, 03:11 PM
My old mare's only vice was trailer loading. I was at my wit's end since I always traveled alone. I audited a Buck Brannaman clinic, oh about 20 years ago. It sounds like his methods are different than CA's, but they certainly worked. No little circles and I thought common sense. She self-loaded from then on.

I've seen CA a few times and don't seek him out, but find some groundworking exercises interesting, but not necessarily unique. I've always taken my horses in hand over jumps and tarps, etc. I don't think it's a bad thing to teach a young horse that you can control the direction of their feet.

The Morven footing episode was a little interesting. The cutting one was really bad because the "guest" expert didn't talk at all! Who was the dressage person?

I was shocked to see SB, so watched the first one. Was wondering what happened to SJ. So will go home and check my DVR for the second part. Maybe I shouldn't. What a lovely horse.

I also noted the ads about the place in OH for sale. Is CA going back to Australia? Going to LA to be a stah?

ravenclaw
Aug. 22, 2007, 03:50 PM
my well meaning parents tried to convince me that we should take me then first (and green/naughty) pony to some of the PP stuff. I tried to gently refuse. They told me the O'Connors were afliated with them to try and convince me, and I literally..did not believe it. I still didn't think it was true until a year or so later when I found some old post on here from when they started working with PP.

I didn't really believe that the OC's were working with PP until I saw an ad in a magazine. The ad was for an uber-expensive "retreat" with the OC's and PP. The whole situation was a huge WTF?!?!?!

I'm glad the OC's aren't slumming anymore. :winkgrin:

InVA
Aug. 22, 2007, 04:06 PM
Stepping up as devil's advocate for a second, what do people think about David and Karen O'Connor teaming up with Pat Parelli and his wife?
.

Their association was a disaster. THey did damage control for a long time after it and I believe they lost a few students as a result of their 'PP way or the Highway" mentality brought on by the cult's influence!

I do not feel sorry for Stephen. He's a grown man and can stand up for his horse's if he feels they are being treated poorly. Most likely he agreed to CA's methods in writing as a prerequisite to appearing on the show.


What next?! maybe the Training Mules and Donkey's folks will branch out into Eventing?

JCS
Aug. 22, 2007, 04:22 PM
I don't usually post on the Eventing forum, but I have to get in on this CA conversation...

I went to a clinic of his once, with an open mind, just to see what the hype was all about. God, it was awful!

The one thing that sticks in my mind was when he was riding his mare Mindy. He said that he trains his horses to always be ready to stop at any time. He said that while loping, Mindy is always thinking "Please let this be the last stride, Please let this be the last stride!"

That alone makes his theories totally incompatible with most English disciplines, where we want the horse to always be thinking forward! No wonder he makes horses stop at the jumps.

Not to mention the two hours he spent making a three-year-old back up in hand. And then he got on him (the same horse!) and spent another hour going in reverse. Of course then the horse refused to go forward. He said "Oh, that happens sometimes, they get stuck." DUUUUUUUH!

Sorry, rant over. I don't like CA, can you tell?

LLDM
Aug. 22, 2007, 04:36 PM
I think the underlying principles in a lot of the NH kooks are sound and good horsemanship. But, then they start seeing $$$$ and everything gets lost in all the hoopla and razzle dazzle :eek:.

Yeah, I think you're right. Unfortunately it seems to happen with a number of trainers across all the disciplines, they start to believe their own press. :rolleyes:

SCFarm

bornfreenowexpensive
Aug. 22, 2007, 04:57 PM
The one thing that sticks in my mind was when he was riding his mare Mindy. He said that he trains his horses to always be ready to stop at any time. He said that while loping, Mindy is always thinking "Please let this be the last stride, Please let this be the last stride!"

That alone makes his theories totally incompatible with most English disciplines, where we want the horse to always be thinking forward! No wonder he makes horses stop at the jumps.




makes it pretty incompatible with a LOT of disciplines....reining is very forward and many western disciplines need quick horses who think a bit for themselves (track the cows etc..).....but perhaps it is compatable with trail riding with beginner riders.....

Never seen him before...but by what has been described here, I don't think that I've missed anything.

pwynnnorman
Aug. 22, 2007, 05:20 PM
[quote=bornfreenowexpensive;2640296]makes it pretty incompatible with a LOT of disciplines....reining is very forward and many western disciplines need quick horses who think a bit for themselves (track the cows etc..).....but perhaps it is compatable with trail riding with beginner riders.....[quote]

Ah, but that's the "beauty" of it! Backwards horses are really the only things even halfway workable for the beginner/ignorant/no-horse-sense/all-thumbs/you're-too-old/small/timid/heavy-for-that-horse-so-get-yourself-an-ancient-AQHA-or-hafflinger types that flock to those crocks!

Not that I think the crocks are smart enough to realize that. They just stumble upon some snappy terminology and cowboy the poor creatures into weary, dreary, mechanical submission. The sad thing is that if only those gullible fools would just get out and LOOK AROUND THEM, they'd learn a ton more than any stupid NH clinic.

Horsemanship for shut-ins. What's next? The Phone-It-In Farrier?

sidepasser
Aug. 22, 2007, 05:45 PM
and to think that Tom Dorrance was around long, long before any of these "newbie, wannabes", just plain ole common sense horsemanship, principles that could be applied to western or english with good results.

not a showboat either, just a good horseman from way, way back that others seem to "try" to be..and can't.

Foxtrot's
Aug. 22, 2007, 05:55 PM
Well said, Sidepasser. Tom was a gentleman and a horseman who all these wannabies are trying to copy and add a few tricks of their own for the marketing and razzle-dazzle. Few give Tom any credit.

nc_eventer
Aug. 22, 2007, 06:16 PM
When CA told SB that "ENGLISH FOLKS ARE ALWAYS WANTING STRAIGHT HORSES" and because of that we make them stiff- I thought are you kidding? Did he miss the shoulder in and leg yielding from dressage on the first part. We know the horse has to be supple laterally to be straight and SUPPLE! Geez! I was insulted that he was stereotyping one of our best! I would have died if he stopped my horse in the middle of a bounce! He should have taken him XC and then seen if he still liked the horse to want to stop all the time! He didn't make any effort to understand or learn from the encounter he just wanted to be able to "help" SB and make him look like the ultimate horse person.
When CA was jumping I kept cringing as he would swoop in to a fence- that was a GREAT horse for putting up with him. Half halt is definitely not in CA's vocab. OMG I just remember when he was telling SB that transitions are good way to get a horse more responsive- DUH! How many eventers don't know that? Come on.......
I have much respect for SB for keeping his cool and maintaining composure- though there could have been a reason we never saw SB's face as CA was riding and talking!
I agree about the NH- I see a lot of people doing the ground work but they never get passed it and apply it to riding.

JSwan
Aug. 22, 2007, 06:34 PM
what? There is a video that you can show your horse to teach it how to load???;)


Yeah - and for only 199$ he has videos that show your horse how to cook a Thanksgiving Turkey. Tell ya what - it makes the holidays a breeze - he gets the turkey all ready, we go hunting, then we come back for a 4 course meal.:D

(thanks for the funny reminder that I need to check my grammar before hitting the "submit reply" button!)

fourhorses
Aug. 22, 2007, 07:39 PM
Had to put something in here:

I have friends who are "western" trainers -- they do a lot of reining and cutting, but can also produce a nice roper and reined cowhorse (they will also do wp and horsemanship horses, but while the peanut roller was in vogue they weren't getting many clients for that).

I also know Ray Hunt, and have met Tom Dorrance -- and saw Buck Brannaman.

None of these folks seem(ed) to care much for the new NH movement -- my trainer buddies and Ray Hunt have been a bit more outspoken in their vehemence towards certain of these "NH" practitioners and the whole "NH/Horse Whisperer" movement as being a complete sham and disgrace, especially to true western horsemanship -- as bad as any peanut rolling troper trainer itho.

And my buddies really can't stand the way CA cranks his reiners back and makes them wobbly (their words) -- they're pretty sick that most "english" folks see PP, CA, and company as honest-to-god western horsemen -- they sure don't think so.

fourhorses
Aug. 22, 2007, 07:56 PM
A horseshoer and a couple of the old-time cowboy/western folks in my area already did the number on a NH clinician a while back.

They wanted "a really rank horse" for Mr. Bigtime NH trainer to "cure"; the boys gave him a 12 year old stud horse who is so rank nobody's been able to even get in a round pen with him for quite some time (which is where he stays, a round pen with a loafing shed and a treatment chute attached; they haven't attempted even pasture breeding him for the last five years). They ran him from the chute into a trailer and offloaded him right in the arena's roundpen.

Mr. Bigtime (who has already been named on this thread, but will remain nameless for now) got nowhere with him....but he (the clinician) did impress with his fence jumping abilities; those round pens are high walled!

Flash44
Aug. 22, 2007, 08:05 PM
Well, what has Clinton Anderson actually won? Is there a link to any of his competition results? Or Parelli?
==
I think the best riders and trainers are out riding, training and competing, not touring the country selling products. Isn't reining now an Olympic sport? Is Clinton on the team?

Sithly
Aug. 22, 2007, 08:16 PM
Hm. I didn't watch the TV show, but I watched the video someone posted on the first page. My first thought was, "My god, that looks like the western version of rollkur." Not trying to start that debate again, but seriously, even the western horses I've seen that have been tied back aren't as bad as that horse.

I like some of CA's ground work, but I haven't seen any of his riding stuff. After watching that video ... yikes. I really don't think the hyperflexion is helping that horse's performance at all. I'm all for "lightness," but that is something else altogether.

By contrast, I rode one of JL's horses once, and that horse was so light you could ride with a pinky finger, but even if you pulled on him, he would NOT go behind the bit like that.

Arrow
Aug. 22, 2007, 08:26 PM
The roundpenning and circles look nuts to me. What does tiring a horse out teach them? Lots of disciples on other boards post "be the lead mare, make them move." Well, first: lead mares make others get out of the way, then they ignore them--they don't generally chase them around in circles, they just make them yield. Second: why should we communicate with horses like lead mares--we're people. I don't want to wind horses up, then exhaust them. I want them focused and relaxed--how does roundpenning achieve that?

fourhorses
Aug. 22, 2007, 08:49 PM
Cause maybe the round pen isn't being used as it was originally developed?

The western trainers I know like to work young horses in a round pen rather than lunge them because they feel it's easier on the horse (nobody in the middle pulling on them, makes sense for the young horse) plus it's a better deal for the person doing the first rides -- no corners to get hung up in (again, makes sense to me).
They don't really advocate chasing a horse around in circles until its ready to drop, although they will "work a tough one down" as a last resort -- but we're talking really hard-headed, pigs of horses who are completely flying humans the bird here. Still, none I associate with believe in working a horse until its ready to drop -- good way to get a dead or lame horse (and that doesn't make sense).

Teach
Aug. 22, 2007, 08:52 PM
I have friends who are "western" trainers -- they do a lot of reining and cutting, but can also produce a nice roper and reined cowhorse (they will also do wp and horsemanship horses, but while the peanut roller was in vogue they weren't getting many clients for that).

I also know Ray Hunt, and have met Tom Dorrance -- and saw Buck Brannaman.

None of these folks seem(ed) to care much for the new NH movement -- my trainer buddies and Ray Hunt have been a bit more outspoken in their vehemence towards certain of these "NH" practitioners and the whole "NH/Horse Whisperer" movement as being a complete sham and disgrace, especially to true western horsemanship -- as bad as any peanut rolling troper trainer itho.

I do reining myself (switched over from dressage, which is where my sis still is) & I also can't stand these guys-this is the prevailing feeling among friends who are trainers in the western "sport" disciplines (reining, cutting, reined cow, etc). My horses are all trained in snaffles with solid basics-you could swap tack & take my 5 yr. old reiner out to show first level dressage if you wanted to; in fact, he may be doing just that next year if one of my students decides to lease him! This attitude of "western, NH, same dif" drives me crazy; NO IT'S NOT! It's especially bad when one tries to attend a trade show or equestrian event. Example: at New England Equine Affaire this fall, the hunters will be getting Nona Garson, eventers will be getting David O'Connor, dressage will be getting Anne Gribbons, drivers will be getting Larry Poulin--sounds good, right? Those of us called to western disciplines will be selecting from Monty Roberts (the head charleton), Richard Shrake, Chris Irwin, Kenny Harlow, & Stacey Westfall (although to be fair, some of these are billed as "general training", even though you'll never find english tack anywhere near their barn). How is that fair?

As to this:

Stepping up as devil's advocate for a second, what do people think about David and Karen O'Connor teaming up with Pat Parelli and his wife?

We went to see David present a clinic at EA one year not long after he won his gold medal (I think he was sporting a broken foot, IIRC?) & absolutely LOVED him. It was like going into McDonalds & finding a 5 star chef cooking four-course meals! I still use examples & ideas that I learned from him that day when I teach dressage students. The clinic was also very well-structured, with almost no time wasted; right to business & all horses showing improvement by around the 30-min. mark. We were psyched to see him return a year or 2 later (the first year he was Payrelli-ized) & ended up being shocked & dismayed! Gone were the useful tips on dealing with problems--instead we get the Payrelli buzzwords & game-playing for endless hours. Efficiency? What's that? Jumping clinic? No, no--we are all hiding our hiney right now. After 40 min., nothing had been accomplished by any of the riders, 2 of the horses were now going visibly more poorly than they had when they entered (strung out for miiiiiiiles!), a third was totally pissed & bucking his was around the colliseum, & canterwork or jumping had yet to happen; meanwhile we had been subjected to a psychobabble-filled lecture about how the horses needed to "get right" & "be more savvy" & I don't know, find God or something. At the 50 minute mark, we walked out in disgust & disappointment. I was not surprised in the least to hear that they fell apart & went their separate ways.

Whew! I guess I had that all built up inside. Who knew! :lol:

Hey Mickey
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:12 PM
I did not see the shows, I don't have the channel.
But I am not a fan of C.A.

He lives relativly near to me, (about 2.5 away) He had an open house/barn 2 years ago. So my trainer and I went, because we are firm belivers in you can learn something from anyone. We did, He does a lot more desensiting than we do, so we've done more of that since then.

But, Every bit in all of his tack rooms were twisted wires. THere was not one normal snaffle.

We also got a horse in training that had been at his barn for like a week, maybe 2, To be started, the poor guy has sores in his mouth and on his sides from spurs.
Of course the horse was an arab-saddlebred, and I'm pretty sure his methods wouldn't work so well on that type of horse...

Anyways, I probaly shouldn't have posted this, seeing as I'm just adding to the fire. But I wanted to share my opinion of him.

Sithly
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:15 PM
My earlier post regarding some NH principles being beneficial referred exclusively to the ground work, and how it can help out with the youngsters. I am not at all familiar with the under saddle ideas, but from what people are saying here, it seems to be quite the nightmare. Mgfpaints, I believe you're correct, it's just two separate disciplines and overall styles. Then again, we now have Tennessee Walkers doing dressage... ;)


All of this NH nonsense drives me crazy too. It has NO benefits over common sense, good old fashioned regular training, and is absolutely not compatable in any way to dressage or eventing.

Actually, that's not true at all. The principles of NH do apply to every discipline. The specific PP or CA exercises might not benefit you, but luckily, the basic principles of NH run deeper than the latest trendy marketing scheme.

One of the more most important principles is that the rider must recognize when the horse gets something right, and RELEASE the aids. If you don't, there's absolutely no motivation for the horse to continue doing the right thing. How does that not apply to dressage?

NH is also about controlling your horse's feet (yes, I mean under saddle). One of the first lessons you teach the horse is that he must go forward when asked, no matter what. Over, under, or through anything. How does that not apply to cross country?

You guys are really throwing the baby out with the bath water. You don't have to drink the Kool Aid to benefit from NH. You just take what works for you, and disregard the rest -- no different from any other training method. IMO, it is a mark of poor horsemanship to close your mind to different ideas. Also, it's pretty obvious that if you dismiss the entirety of NH, you're dismissing a great deal of classical horsemanship principles, too.


------------------

Disclaimer: I'm not defending PP or CA specifically. I swear, I do not -- nor will I ever -- own a carrot stick. :D

lstevenson
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:24 PM
One of the more most important principles is that the rider must recognize when the horse gets something right, and RELEASE the aids. If you don't, there's absolutely no motivation for the horse to continue doing the right thing. How does that not apply to dressage?

NH is also about controlling your horse's feet (yes, I mean under saddle). One of the first lessons you teach the horse is that he must go forward when asked, no matter what. Over, under, or through anything. How does that not apply to cross country?



Um...... Those are *NOT* NH concepts.

Forward from the leg, and releasing the aids when the horse is doing it, are basic concepts from just plain old good riding.

Sithly
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:28 PM
Um...... Those are *NOT* NH concepts.

Forward from the leg, and releasing the aids when the horse is doing it, are basic concepts from just plain old good riding.

That is EXACTLY what the NH trainers are breaking down and packaging. Why is it wrong when they do it and not when you do it?

lstevenson
Aug. 22, 2007, 09:48 PM
That is EXACTLY what the NH trainers are breaking down and packaging. Why is it wrong when they do it and not when you do it?



I don't have a problem with any CORRECT concepts that NH's may do. And those happen to be two correct ones (which again are just good basic riding concepts, not NH.).

But almost everything else they do is not compatible to dressage or really any english discipline. I take huge issue with the endless spinning in circles, one rein stops, "hindquartering", their idea of so called "collection", flexing, bending, or any other dressage term which they apply incorrectly, with the idea of making the horse "give" to the riders hand and hold a false frame, with loose reins, with making them stand on a log like an elephant on a drum, with thinking that somehow riding with no bridle but smacking the horse on the side of the head with a stick to turn is better then using a bridle, with the way they load them in trailers by going round and round in circles until the horse self loads, with "carrot sticks" and those stupid rope halters, and many, many more things which I am sure will come to me shortly.

Rant over. For now. :D

retreadeventer
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:27 PM
Other way around...classical horsemanship came first, NH much later. Sorry. We eventers already have a "round pen", as I say. It's called the outside rein. If you teach a horse to go inside leg to outside hand then you have a roundpen with you no matter where you ride...any open field or jumping arena or trail....I enjoy reading these discussions, they really fun, if only for the good rants!:)

Sithly
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:28 PM
Ah. Now that I understand. I don't subscribe to all of the specific techniques of the individual trainers, either. But I do have to say that learning a few of them really helped my feel, in general. I use a lot of NH exercises in my daily warm-ups. Also, every trainer is different. For every exercise you mentioned, I can come up with at least two other stereotypically "natural" ways to get the same result. In other words, just because Parelli's an idiot, don't assume that all of them are! :lol: Kidding, but you know what I mean.

I think the problem is one of perception. NH is really not a discipline unto itself. It's foundation training that you take and apply to your discipline of choice. If you were to train to the very highest level of NH, then you would have ... a very broke horse that would be well equipped to get out and DO something, lol. The real value of NH, in my opinion, comes when you actually apply it. Whether you choose trail riding or reining or dressage, NH is just a means to an end. It is not inherently better or worse than any other method.

I believe that anyone who dismisses NH as a whole is doing themselves a disservice. I also believe that anyone who swallows NH whole is doing themselves a disservice (and making us look bad, damnit).

time fault
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:28 PM
...horses who are completely flying humans the bird here.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

time fault
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:34 PM
Anyways, I probaly shouldn't have posted this, seeing as I'm just adding to the fire. But I wanted to share my opinion of him.

Oh hun you're not the only one. And the bleeding sides from spurs was not limited to the Arab-Saddlebred. I saw quite a few of his QHs, not just ones in for training. They also are not up on really teaching the horse acceptance of the saddle. His #1 girl just put it on the horse, put her in his outdoor round pen and left the filly out for the day. She was a horse in for training.

pinkdiamondracing
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:36 PM
:lol::lol::lol:Roflmbo at all the rants of NH!!! NH-- also known as NOT HARDLY:lol::lol:

Sithly
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:40 PM
Other way around...classical horsemanship came first, NH much later.

Right. I've said before (and I'll probably say a thousand times more), NH trainers didn't invent these principles -- but they have packaged them and made them easy to understand and accessible to the masses. We can probably all agree that this has had good and bad results, but I believe the good outwieghs the bad. For every one whacko with an orange stick, there are two quiet, sensible people who have vastly benefitted from being exposed to ideas they would not otherwise have seen. Say what you will about the NH craze, but without it, the horse world would be a much smaller place.

Bluey
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:41 PM
I don't have a problem with any CORRECT concepts that NH's may do. And those happen to be two correct ones (which again are just good basic riding concepts, not NH.).

But almost everything else they do is not compatible to dressage or really any english discipline. I take huge issue with the endless spinning in circles, one rein stops, "hindquartering", their idea of so called "collection", flexing, bending, or any other dressage term which they apply incorrectly, with the idea of making the horse "give" to the riders hand and hold a false frame, with loose reins, with making them stand on a log like an elephant on a drum, with thinking that somehow riding with no bridle but smacking the horse on the side of the head with a stick to turn is better then using a bridle, with the way they load them in trailers by going round and round in circles until the horse self loads, with "carrot sticks" and those stupid rope halters, and many, many more things which I am sure will come to me shortly.

Rant over. For now. :D

They will probably repeat that CA show on RFD-TV some other times thru the week, so others can see how a well trained horse is coming "untrained as the discipline he is so good at, by someone that doesn't know how to train for it.

If you get to see that video and the one posted in the first page here, you will understand where many of the NH followers are going to end and why it is not right for not ANY discipline, western or english.

You can't teach disunity to that level and then get the horse back together, without sometimes the horse cheating on you and getting again disconnecting on you.
You taught it to evade, so it will, just as you would not teach one to buck or rear, so you can teach it then not to buck and rear?
Does that make sense?

You want a horse to be flexible and responsive, but you don't want it to be so flexible and overresponsive as to use it against you, rubbernecking and falling behind the bit at the mere sitting deeper in the saddle and so be an effort to get it going forward again.

There is no time when you ride to keep bringing a cheating horse back on again and again.
You will miss your transition mark in a dressage test, your distance to a jump as in that RFD-TV show, your cow, as CA does in that video.

NH doesn't just do good horse training, but OVERDOES it, in their zeal to become different and so more marketable, a brand name.

Of course, a good horseman will take any technique and make it work most of the time, if it is not overdone.
But, why go down that route at all?

What CA was doing there was not even good NH, the disengaging wrong, forcing the horse and letting it scoot away by asking too roughly, not a little bit and letting the horse go.
You don't ask for collection the first time you ride a green horse.
You don't ask for that much bending the first time you ask a horse to bend, without the horse just scooting away from you with his body and getting a sore mouth from it.

People can learn much from anyone, even CA, but they also need to be discerning of what is good and what is clearly not appropiated to ask of a horse at that time, no matter the reason.

lstevenson
Aug. 22, 2007, 10:58 PM
People can learn much from anyone


Yes, it's true that you can learn something from everyone. But in this case, it's what NOT to do. :winkgrin:

Lookout
Aug. 22, 2007, 11:40 PM
Ah, but that's the "beauty" of it! Backwards horses are really the only things even halfway workable for the beginner/ignorant/no-horse-sense/all-thumbs/you're-too-old/small/timid/heavy-for-that-horse-so-get-yourself-an-ancient-AQHA-or-hafflinger types that flock to those crocks!


actually, not really. As a very good trainer I worked with used to say, when a horse is behind your leg, the only direction he can go after that, is UP!

luise
Aug. 23, 2007, 08:43 AM
After listening to a PP disciple come and speak, I realized it was all about marketing. And what frustrated me is why she couldn't just say what they are teaching? That the horse is submissive and you are its leader! Instead she spent 2 hrs talking in catch words and metaphors. Then she told us how we can spend $250+ on the DVDs. I went to hear her speak b/c I knew nothing about PP and their ideas. I left still feeling that I knew nothing, but it did confirm my original impression that it is all about marketing. I think that all of these NH ideas are geared towards uneducated people who are afraid of their horses. You know, the 45 y/o woman who buys a young green horse because she's "always wanted a horse," but has no idea how to ride it, train it, etc (I hope I'm not offending anyone).

pwynnnorman
Aug. 23, 2007, 08:47 AM
actually, not really. As a very good trainer I worked with used to say, when a horse is behind your leg, the only direction he can go after that, is UP!

True, true--I guess they edit that part out, huh?

KellyS
Aug. 23, 2007, 09:11 AM
Did anyone see this thread on Off Course--

http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=111379

It's great! :D Should lighten the conversation up a bit!

InVA
Aug. 23, 2007, 09:50 AM
I don't usually post on the Eventing forum, but I have to get in on this CA conversation...

I went to a clinic of his once, with an open mind, just to see what the hype was all about. God, it was awful!

The one thing that sticks in my mind was when he was riding his mare Mindy. He said that he trains his horses to always be ready to stop at any time. He said that while loping, Mindy is always thinking "Please let this be the last stride, Please let this be the last stride!"

That alone makes his theories totally incompatible with most English disciplines, where we want the horse to always be thinking forward! No wonder he makes horses stop at the jumps.

Not to mention the two hours he spent making a three-year-old back up in hand. And then he got on him (the same horse!) and spent another hour going in reverse. Of course then the horse refused to go forward. He said "Oh, that happens sometimes, they get stuck." DUUUUUUUH!

Sorry, rant over. I don't like CA, can you tell?

It sounds like he specializes in people who are afraid of their horses. just a thought

WNT
Aug. 23, 2007, 09:52 AM
Looks like RFD-TV is airing the episode again at 3PM Eastern on Sunday, and a couple 1:30 AM slots Friday and Saturday. Ironically, I had first seen this thread yesterday morning. I went to chat with the barn manager last night, and the first thing she asks me is if I watch RFD-TV. Sometimes, if there's nothing else on... why? Did you see Clinton Anderson last night? Well, no I hadn't, but I knew exactly what she was talking about because of this thread. Too funny.

Auventera Two
Aug. 23, 2007, 10:07 AM
I can't stand Clinton Anderson. I used to give him the benefit of doubt until I read one of his articles in Horse and Rider on desensitizing. He was throwing ropes up in the air and flinging his hand up over a horse's eye to desensitize him to sudden movement. Some yahoo cowboy idiot did this with my friend's warmblood mare and gave her a mental breakdown. She became terrified of EVERYTHING. :mad:

Of all the NH people, I tend to like John Lyons the best. I have his books, and DVDs, get his monthly magazine, and I've seen him in person this year. He is very calm, slow, and quiet, and doesn't do stuff to scare the crap out of them. He's very gentle on the reins, you never see his legs move. He constantly stresses the need to be gentle, forgiving, and consistent with our horses. He says the only problem with a horse is the person handling it, and he teaches everything with a baby step system - just one little step at a time until the horse is comfortable. He puts complete emphasis on the horse's comfort, calmness, and understanding. I follow a few of his techniques, and have had really great success.

Lyons doesn't swing ropes and crack bullwhips. He is much more down to earth as far as I can tell.

3dazey
Aug. 23, 2007, 10:19 AM
It sounds like he specializes in people who are afraid of their horses. just a thought

I believe you have just hit the nail on the head.

DLee
Aug. 23, 2007, 10:28 AM
I heard a good description of these people: "Simpsons catering to other Simpsons"

I am wondering... who are "these people"? If it is anyone involved however remotely in NH, I am disappointed to be lumped and categorized into a huge and diverse group. That doesn't work for anything, "these eventers", "these dressage trainers", whatever. There ARE a lot of people out there (myself included) who use principles learned from other trainers, NH included. Just because I own a carrot stick (and use it, it's a great tool), and have rope halters as well as leather (and use them, will never go back, my horses respect the rope halters more) does not mean I am a nut job, don't know what the hell I'm doing, or anything else along those lines. I am a 'normal' rider/trainer who uses some of the principles that I learned from Parelli's (yes, Parelli's), that I did NOT learn from any of the other trainers (good and bad) that I have had over the years. I LIKE to learn different methods, and if they work for me I keep them. There are event trainers I will NEVER go back to, and NH trainers I will NEVER go back to. And there are great ones in each 'discipline' that I will ride with as long and as often as I can.

It is just ignorant to make fun of a group of any people (or whatever), because we are not all the same, obviously. I don't usually bother to post on these threads as it is SSDD, but I was just disappointed (especially on this board, for some reason), to see it come up again, and especially from Denny, someone who I admire greatly and have ridden with years ago. Unless I misunderstood. Diana

Bluey
Aug. 23, 2007, 10:36 AM
I am wondering... who are "these people"? If it is anyone involved however remotely in NH, I am disappointed to be lumped and categorized into a huge and diverse group. That doesn't work for anything, "these eventers", "these dressage trainers", whatever. There ARE a lot of people out there (myself included) who use principles learned from other trainers, NH included. Just because I own a carrot stick (and use it, it's a great tool), and have rope halters as well as leather (and use them, will never go back, my horses respect the rope halters more) does not mean I am a nut job, don't know what the hell I'm doing, or anything else along those lines. I am a 'normal' rider/trainer who uses some of the principles that I learned from Parelli's (yes, Parelli's), that I did NOT learn from any of the other trainers (good and bad) that I have had over the years. I LIKE to learn different methods, and if they work for me I keep them. There are event trainers I will NEVER go back to, and NH trainers I will NEVER go back to. And there are great ones in each 'discipline' that I will ride with as long and as often as I can.

It is just ignorant to make fun of a group of any people (or whatever), because we are not all the same, obviously. I don't usually bother to post on these threads as it is SSDD, but I was just disappointed (especially on this board, for some reason), to see it come up again, and especially from Denny, someone who I admire greatly and have ridden with years ago. Unless I misunderstood. Diana

People are not dumping them all in one pile, but specifying what they don't like IN that pile.

John Lyons seemed to me to be acceptable, for long time, until I saw him on RFD-TV chasing a lame, too fat gray yearling colt forever and ever around a pen and never get it to do what he wanted, the colt even laid down here and there to try to rest a little, all while JL kept talking and talking and talking and not saying anything.
To me, that was an absurd situation for all, the colt and the ones watching and listening.
Will take much else done right to be able to think much of JL again.:no:

ravenclaw
Aug. 23, 2007, 10:43 AM
Of all the NH people, I tend to like John Lyons the best. I have his books, and DVDs, get his monthly magazine, and I've seen him in person this year. He is very calm, slow, and quiet, and doesn't do stuff to scare the crap out of them. He's very gentle on the reins, you never see his legs move. He constantly stresses the need to be gentle, forgiving, and consistent with our horses. He says the only problem with a horse is the person handling it, and he teaches everything with a baby step system - just one little step at a time until the horse is comfortable. He puts complete emphasis on the horse's comfort, calmness, and understanding. I follow a few of his techniques, and have had really great success.

Lyons doesn't swing ropes and crack bullwhips. He is much more down to earth as far as I can tell.
Here's an interesting tidbit about John Lyons. A friend of mine is a vet and went to school in Athens, GA. When he was in vet school, he was working a night shift in the horse emergency department and John Lyons brought a horse in (I think JL was in town for a clinic or something). My friend said that JL was really cool, polite, and down to earth. He was concerned about his horse, but he just stood back and let the vets do their job. No one working that night had any idea who he was until another student came to work her shift. She knew who he was, freaked out a little, and let everyone know what a big deal JL is in the horse world.

I just thought it was nice that JL didn't come in throwing his name and weight around. I can't imagine the Parellis would be that low-key.

bornfreenowexpensive
Aug. 23, 2007, 10:47 AM
I am wondering... who are "these people"? If it is anyone involved however remotely in NH, I am disappointed to be lumped and categorized into a huge and diverse group.


I agree to a point. I took "these people" to mean those that are in the marketing group. The ones that spout out the NH principles as some "New" method of training that will make your horse perfect in 6 easy lessons that you can learn on a DVD.

Rope halters are NOT new or exclusive to the "NH" set....they have been around for a VERY long time. Some of the best I've seen used by some of the Mexican grooms who used to work on the A jumper circuit many years ago. And I agree, I've learn a few tools from "NH" type trainers before....but these are not new tools....and I'm sure the same tools have been used by horsemen for a long time. I have def. used a round pen when breaking a young horse or bringing back a horse into work. I think it is easier they having them on a lunge line....but do I think you can start a young horse without one...of course, I've done that too. And the round pen isn't used to chase a horse or run them off their legs.

I have found this thread interesting....but I will not generalize quite to the same extent as some of the others. I do find it odd when I hear about a person "buying a horse to do NH." That makes NO sense. "NH" is a term of art...developed by the marketing guys. It is not a training method and is not a sport but it is used by some greasy guys to "sell" concepts and products to folks. Some of those products may actually be useful...and many of the concepts are based on sound principles.....but like anything, in the wrong hands....some of these products and principles can cause more damage then good. And none of it replaces learning good common horse sense that can only be developed over time.

Mtn trails
Aug. 23, 2007, 11:02 AM
I have used some of CA's round penning techniques and found them pretty useful. I don't and didn't run my horse into a lathered up mess because I limited our sessions to about 10 minutes at a time with only half that time moving faster than a trot. Now she roundpens like a champ and really enjoys it. I have found the rest of his groundwork to transfer to the saddle - she's not behind my leg, is forward, respectful, and responsive.

I take what I like from here and there and if it works for my horse, fine, if not, try something else.

Auventera Two
Aug. 23, 2007, 11:42 AM
Here's an interesting tidbit about John Lyons. A friend of mine is a vet and went to school in Athens, GA. When he was in vet school, he was working a night shift in the horse emergency department and John Lyons brought a horse in (I think JL was in town for a clinic or something). My friend said that JL was really cool, polite, and down to earth. He was concerned about his horse, but he just stood back and let the vets do their job. No one working that night had any idea who he was until another student came to work her shift. She knew who he was, freaked out a little, and let everyone know what a big deal JL is in the horse world.

I just thought it was nice that JL didn't come in throwing his name and weight around. I can't imagine the Parellis would be that low-key.

I can totally believe that. :) When I met him, he was so down to earth, and kind. He wasn't flashy and loud mouthed. In fact, one lady told me she'd never go see him again because he's so darned boring. When I saw him, he was telling people how we should think of our horses like children. We don't yell at them and hit them because they don't understand, and we don't complain about them and talk about how stupid, stubborn, log headed, and ornery they are. He said that we should never say things like "Well, this horse is just so XYZ." Because how would you like it if your kid's teacher called him from school and said "You know what, I'm a darned good teacher. In fact, I'm the best teacher in the world. But your kid is just so stupid. He's a pain in the butt and I just can't do anything with him." But yet we do that to our horses all the time. We can't seem to learn that our horses do what they do because of US.

If you truly love and respect the horse, then you respect the fact that they are a different species with a different language, and different needs than humans. He said it's like dealing with a kindergarten child. We think on a different level than they do, but that doesn't give us the right to abuse them or scare them. His lecture was really fantastic and had a few people in tears.

purplnurpl
Aug. 23, 2007, 11:45 AM
I finally watched it last night. love Tivo.

most interesting. I was impressed that in one swoop CA was able to jump. and he was pretty quiet with his body also.

But the spinning. OMG. pretty damn stupid. I love the one where he ripped the horses head off to stop him in the middle of a one stride. true genius at work there.
It was also very intesting how Stephen Bradley agreed with CA after he got back on.
was that for the good of National TV? I can say he is much more professional than the Pepperonis. I would have yanked him off my horse after that move in the gymnastic, viewers or no viewers.

not once did he say, "Well Clinton, we actually WANT our horses to go forward!!!"

Stephen Bradley is a saint.

also, did you hear when CA said that it would be better to spin when you're NOT FLAT HEALED?? like, put a big freakin spur on and dig it into the rib cage to get bend.

that horse was a saint.
who was it?

fooler
Aug. 23, 2007, 12:01 PM
and to think that Tom Dorrance was around long, long before any of these "newbie, wannabes", just plain ole common sense horsemanship, principles that could be applied to western or english with good results.

not a showboat either, just a good horseman from way, way back that others seem to "try" to be..and can't.

One good thing about PP - he does credit Dorrence and others, often, for most of his "knowledge".

tx3dayeventer
Aug. 23, 2007, 12:28 PM
Could you imagine that poor horses reaction IF CA had on his 2" rowels on a 2"shanked spurs :o. Those would be the BIGGEST spurs any event horse had ever seen!


fooler- PP only throws out Tom Dorrance & Ray Hunt's name b/c they are so popular and he fools people into believing that he follows their methods :)

Lawn Ornament
Aug. 23, 2007, 01:30 PM
One good thing about PP - he does credit Dorrence and others, often, for most of his "knowledge".


If I was Tommy Dorrance, I would consider that a DIScredit... but who knows. ;)

kmw2707
Aug. 23, 2007, 03:17 PM
Can anyone explain to me what the point is of riding the horse so behind the verticle all the time????

My little mare has a tendency to get behind my leg and behind the bit for short periods of time and oh boy can she barrel around and leave me helpless momentarily if I allow her to get so behind the bit. So, what the hell is the point? I will admit I am pretty clueless to all this NH hype and don't know much more than what I have read in the numerous threads here on COTH.

fooler
Aug. 23, 2007, 03:39 PM
tx3dayeventer
""fooler- PP only throws out Tom Dorrance & Ray Hunt's name b/c they are so popular and he fools people into believing that he follows their methods"
Lawn Ornament
"If I was Tommy Dorrance, I would consider that a DIScredit... but who knows."

I saw one day of a 2 day PP clinic about 4-5 years ago. Outside of the "you gotta buy my stuff', he seemed ok. Yes alot of it was common sense and what many on this BB learned from their mentors. That day, PP praised his mentors and stated he was trying to spread their knowledge. OK that and make some money for his family on the side.

The PP I saw on RFD-TV last night was totally different. He is into this new-age 'we are one with the animal', no stress, etc. Not to mention he is agreeing with PETA. . and of course they like the way he handles horses.

I am not surprised that some 'graduates' from these NH trainers are not that good. Just because you worked or rode with someone, does not mean you understand what they taught you. That is true of any educational process. Not to mention I have seen more than a few event and dressage 'instructors' with very little understanding of what they were attempting to teach. Fortunately most continued their own education and improved not only themselves but their students.

One thing I have learned over the years is that no one knows everything about horses and we can all learn from one another. Even, as someone else noted, what not to do.

BarbB
Aug. 23, 2007, 03:45 PM
I


Stephen Bradley is a saint.



oh, I dunno. I WAS a fan, now not so much.
People come on these forums all the time saying that they let a "trainer" do something abusive or stupid with their horse and now they regret not stopping the action. They generally get toasted by the general population of the bb for not being a responsible horse owner and stepping up to protect the horse.
What's different about it if Stephen Bradley does it?

bornfreenowexpensive
Aug. 23, 2007, 04:00 PM
What's different about it if Stephen Bradley does it?


Since it wasn't his show and he probably didn't control the editing....it is hard to know what he said or thought. But hopefully he picked a horse whose confidence wasn't rattled by what was done to him....my gelding would have stood straight up in the air and then PLANTED CA and taken off and my mares would have probably planted him and then turned around and stomped on him...

Rancher
Aug. 23, 2007, 05:42 PM
oh, I dunno. I WAS a fan, now not so much.
People come on these forums all the time saying that they let a "trainer" do something abusive or stupid with their horse and now they regret not stopping the action. They generally get toasted by the general population of the bb for not being a responsible horse owner and stepping up to protect the horse.
What's different about it if Stephen Bradley does it?


That is what I was thinking. He sounds like an idiot. People keep saying on here POOR Stephen Bradley, AWW He was SUCH a saint. NO HE ISN'T. We have to hope the show was edited and SB DID go off on CA we just didn't see. If SB did NOT stick up for his horse and blast CA then I am not sure what kind of a horse person he is. I did not see the show. I wish I had of so I could comment further. But to say SB is a saint for not sticking up for his horse is wrong IMHO.

Mariequi
Aug. 23, 2007, 05:51 PM
DLee - I see my Dublin on your web site. I'm thrilled. Didn't know.

I'm with you on taking what you can use from diff trainers. I, too, have the carrot stick which has been very useful. Have been desensitizing and sensitizing for quite a while. I liked the CA groundwork episodes on RFD with the horse being sent over ditches and diff obstacles. I do that with Dub.

In an other vein, I sent Dub to what I thought was the closest to Tom Dorrance around here and was very wrong and very disappointed. I've also used dressage, sj and eventing trainers that I'd never go back to and some that I'd travel quite a distance to get to.

I do worry about the inexperienced and uneducated getting caught up in the wrong "lessons".

Lori T
Aug. 23, 2007, 07:10 PM
I saw CA years ago at Equitana and was extremely unimpressed. I can't watch his show. Circles? I think that is all he knows how to do. Unfortunately, one of my neighbors has hired a CA wannabe to work with her son's QH mare...lovely mare, no issues whatsoever. But this cowboy has been working her for 2 hours, in the heat, in a small circle, both on her back and off. He rips her mouth, smacks her upside the face and has her so terrified, she is pooping and rolling her eyes. It was so bad, Jen, my 17 year old offered to work the mare for free. These are the same people who had Jen work with their other mare last summer and were so happy at how quiet and soft Jen rode her, and yet think that since this other mare is going western, this is an ok method to work her. It is really sad...she will definitely have issues now.

flyingchange
Aug. 23, 2007, 08:23 PM
That is what I was thinking. He sounds like an idiot. People keep saying on here POOR Stephen Bradley, AWW He was SUCH a saint. NO HE ISN'T. We have to hope the show was edited and SB DID go off on CA we just didn't see. If SB did NOT stick up for his horse and blast CA then I am not sure what kind of a horse person he is. I did not see the show. I wish I had of so I could comment further. But to say SB is a saint for not sticking up for his horse is wrong IMHO.

I agree.

Bluey
Aug. 23, 2007, 10:09 PM
I agree.

Exactly.

If someone is riding my horse and doing something like that, I would stop him and give him a nice teaching lecture of why that was wrong, for that horse, in that discipline.
All very nicely and matter of fact, the attitude that of teaching, "just the way things are and you, sir, need to learn about it" and thanks, but that is why we ride our horses like we do, a little less limber than rubbernecking and behind the bit.

Then I can spend as long as it takes, keep talking and explaining, until their eyes cross, but they get the message and don't get back on the horse, I won't let them.:D

I would say that the rider of the horse didn't feel that he could do that right then, with the cameras rolling, felt trapped and later, once CA was off, it didn't matter, so why make a scene?


How do I know that? Because once I was that idiot.

Just new to the West, never seen little cowhorses and these friends were being nice and asked me to come over to see their ranch and their horses.
Coming from jumping and dressage horses at the top level and not knowing any better, I was unimpressed with those little odd looking, choppily traveling dumpy cowponies.
I was saying how nice their colors were, about all that I could think and they offered me a ride on a filly one had been training some six months.
I didn't know any English, so missed that she had been in a bosal until then, just started on a snaffle the day before.

So, with my big head and total ignorance, I got in that western saddle, took the reins up and rode her around for several minutes.
The filly objected to contact all the time, so all I could do without fussing was to try and let her amble, so I didn't even try to trot or canter.
I could not understand why, if she had been ridden several months, she was not responding to the snaffle, didn't have a half educated mouth yet, although she did respond to seat and legs fine.
I didn't know about bosals or western training, so didn't have a clue of what was going on or why, as CA was showing about jumping horses on that show.
I got off her as soon as I could, not wanting to "work" a horse that was someone else's to train.
At least I had enough sense to do that, not try to retrain "my way", unlike CA was doing.

I am sure I didn't impress them much either, no better that I did with the sweet filly.
They are still friends, as I got a b-card the other day. Guess they forgave my ignorance long ago.:)

vanheimrhorses
Aug. 24, 2007, 11:10 PM
just because Clinton Anderson didnt win a gold medal does that make him less of a person than Stephen Bradley?, this is how H/J people got their snobby reputation by thinking they are better than anyone else. Every trainer can teach everyone either higher or lower level than themselves something, if you think know it all is when you start to fail.
i didnt see the show so i cannot comment if the horse was snatched in the mouth but i take offense at putting someone down.

Bluey
Aug. 25, 2007, 03:20 AM
just because Clinton Anderson didnt win a gold medal does that make him less of a person than Stephen Bradley?, this is how H/J people got their snobby reputation by thinking they are better than anyone else. Every trainer can teach everyone either higher or lower level than themselves something, if you think know it all is when you start to fail.
i didnt see the show so i cannot comment if the horse was snatched in the mouth but i take offense at putting someone down.

I don't think that people here are critical of CA because he has not won an olympic medal, but because he was riding a horse in a discipline he obviously is a complete novice in and then trying to tell someone at the top of that discipline how it should be done.:rolleyes:

You may be a tennis star, but if you pick up a club and go golfing, that you know what a tennis ball can do will not show you how to manage a golf ball.;)
If a golf master lets you play along, will you, great tennis master that you are, then try to tell him how he needs to hit that ball to do best?:lol:

Don't know what you call that, but I call it not knowing enough to know how little we know.:eek:

What happen to being humble and learning when given the chance?:no:
I think the one there that obviously should have been learning something is CA.:D

Sannois
Aug. 25, 2007, 07:08 AM
but ever since Dish network took RFDTV off the channel I get I have not seen CA. I could not stand watching him twist necks every 5 seconds, and his overblown Aussie accent, and how he always said okay... UGH That and the constant circling. But I would have paid to see him jump. LMAO.. Wonder what got into Stephen Bradley?? :eek: Strange pair up. :confused:

denny
Aug. 25, 2007, 07:22 AM
I agree totally with Bluey. It`s not any particular person or discipline that is the issue, but not knowing about something, and either criticising (short rein=no brain) or telling a great master (Walter Zettl) that he`s wrong, these are highly objectionable.
Lots of "natural horsemanship" trainers have lots too teach, I`m sure. But that doesn`t make them experts in everything. George Morris doesn`t pretend to teach reining, and De Nemethy didn`t teach grand prix dressage.
We would all be more impressed with some of these glitzy experts if they would take serious dressage lessons, or actually try to ride in even a novice level event, before they have their ignorant say.
Put them in the starting gate at Rolex next spring and see how expert they feel!
The good ones are good. It`s the arrogant ones who make a bad name.

lucky dog farm
Aug. 25, 2007, 08:16 AM
Okay here is my PP story. I use to own a pretty talanted QH/Bel x that saw dead people I think because whatever he saw nobody else did. Well, he would whip around at warp speed and leave over nothing( he did make it to a 1star at prelim) fast forward. I took him to a PP clinic and did all the level one stuff with him ,which,let's face it is just something every horse should know. In this indoor was a half wall. I was trying to get him to sidepass down this wall and he was being very good. The PP trainer said I was not DOING it right and she took over. Now I know this horse and tell her he will leave if you push him to much. She told me "you just have to go with them" (evil grin on my side). I hand her the rope and stand back. She pushed him and over the wall he went just as easy as pie pulling the rope right out of her hands. He put himself back into his stall not one to suffer fools gladly. She exclaimed " I have never seen a horse do that" I said told you so and what happened to you "just going with him". HA! I was not impressed to say the least. I giggle even now thinking about it.

Sannois
Aug. 25, 2007, 08:20 AM
I agree totally with Bluey. It`s not any particular person or discipline that is the issue, but not knowing about something, and either criticising (short rein=no brain) or telling a great master (Walter Zettl) that he`s wrong, these are highly objectionable.
Lots of "natural horsemanship" trainers have lots too teach, I`m sure. But that doesn`t make them experts in everything. George Morris doesn`t pretend to teach reining, and De Nemethy didn`t teach grand prix dressage.
We would all be more impressed with some of these glitzy experts if they would take serious dressage lessons, or actually try to ride in even a novice level event, before they have their ignorant say.
Put them in the starting gate at Rolex next spring and see how expert they feel!
The good ones are good. It`s the arrogant ones who make a bad name.

Id pay big money to see CA or a number of the other Experts leave the start box at Rolex!!!:lol::winkgrin::D;)

snoopy
Aug. 25, 2007, 08:33 AM
Id pay big money to see CA or a number of the other Experts leave the start box at Rolex!!!:lol::winkgrin::D;)


and never come back!!!!:eek:;):D

Bluey
Aug. 25, 2007, 08:47 AM
Okay here is my PP story. I use to own a pretty talanted QH/Bel x that saw dead people I think because whatever he saw nobody else did. Well, he would whip around at warp speed and leave over nothing( he did make it to a 1star at prelim) fast forward. I took him to a PP clinic and did all the level one stuff with him ,which,let's face it is just something every horse should know. In this indoor was a half wall. I was trying to get him to sidepass down this wall and he was being very good. The PP trainer said I was not DOING it right and she took over. Now I know this horse and tell her he will leave if you push him to much. She told me "you just have to go with them" (evil grin on my side). I hand her the rope and stand back. She pushed him and over the wall he went just as easy as pie pulling the rope right out of her hands. He put himself back into his stall not one to suffer fools gladly. She exclaimed " I have never seen a horse do that" I said told you so and what happened to you "just going with him". HA! I was not impressed to say the least. I giggle even now thinking about it.

Here is my PP story.
Remember that PP only gives "demonstrations", that he has his certified teachers giving the mostly two day clinics to teach what he does.
That is a certification they spend many hours and $ achieving and maintaining, but not all are the same, some better and others not so good.

We had one of those come by here and they needed some more warm bodies, so I was offered a spot.
I talked to the clinician and he said to take an old horse was best, that it was all about the people learning, not the horse and a quiet, gentle horse would make it so much easier to do things with.

I pulled this 18 year old retired horse, race bred, that had been a ranch and arena roping and dogging horse, right out of the pasture for that, as he was used to indoors, more than some of our other horses.
He was a performance horse, that still at 18 had a lot of gas and was very quick and a little sharp/spooky, as so many good cowhorses are.

We were doing fine the first day, first hour, but my horse, every time we circled to hear what to do next, being a nervous and anxious horse, would stick his head on my back and close his eyes, his way to shut the scary world out.
I had been doing that initial work with the stick and he was responding nicely to all that rubbing, poking and pointing.

Guess that the clinican thought he was "going to sleep on me", as he said and took the leash and wanted to wake him up.
I warned him that he was old, but not pokey, a little quick, to go easy.

Big grin from the clinician, about to show me something.:rolleyes:

He woke that horse up just by stepping up to him.:eek:
The horse took a look at his stance at the end of that leadrope, his stick held as a sword in the other hand and he started shying and running backwards, dragging him all over the arena.:p
He never regained control of him, just half stopped him, said some silly appeasements and handed him over to me again, never in the whole two days to take him to demonstrate again, as he did every other horse time and again.
Just as well, because that would have been a fight I would not have let him go at it, not with my horse.

We were a star pair there, did all the games fine, would move sideways quickly and understood all what we were doing like he had been doing it all his life.
He would run around with me sitting on a barrel forever, etc., because he is a very attuned horse to getting the job done, if you show him and very polite.

The whole experience was fun, even my silly horse seemed to grin and enjoy much of it, mostly that he was back working, so I unretired him after that and he is back on light work, now 22 years old.

I say that such clinics are fun, you get to do more with your horses, stuff that they generally don't do and who knows, some day some of those little things may fit with what you are doing with a specific horse.

Information is never wasted, no matter what it is.

Now, would I have corrected that clinician when he said things I KNOW are different than what he said, like about "collection"?
No way, it was his show and maybe in the way he meant it and practices that is what "collection" is.
That I see it differently is up for discussion, but not there.

That is what I think CA should have done, have a horse of his own to demonstrate with, not one trained so differently that he doesn't know any of the why's of that training and try to untrain it.:confused:

We keep coming back to not knowing enough to know how little he knows.:yes:

Bluey
Aug. 25, 2007, 08:57 AM
and never come back!!!!:eek:;):D

I think that is what the yellow flags are for?:winkgrin:

Melissa.Van Doren
Aug. 25, 2007, 09:03 AM
I find the whole NH "movement" interesting... NOT from a training point of view (most of what's good and useful is not new... and most of what's not good and not useful is so off-the-wall I have a hard time watching), but from a social perspective...

It's a good thing these guys are only interested in horses, because they certainly have the "sway" evidenced in all effective cult leaders. And how amazing and perplexing that so many are so happy to blindly follow. Their hold is even more clear when we see top professionals like SB and the O'Cs fall under the spell.

Scary.

Sannois
Aug. 25, 2007, 09:20 AM
Here is my PP story.
Remember that PP only gives "demonstrations", that he has his certified teachers giving the mostly two day clinics to teach what he does.
That is a certification they spend many hours and $ achieving and maintaining, but not all are the same, some better and others not so good.

We had one of those come by here and they needed some more warm bodies, so I was offered a spot.
I talked to the clinician and he said to take an old horse was best, that it was all about the people learning, not the horse and a quiet, gentle horse would make it so much easier to do things with.

I pulled this 18 year old retired horse, race bred, that had been a ranch and arena roping and dogging horse, right out of the pasture for that, as he was used to indoors, more than some of our other horses.
He was a performance horse, that still at 18 had a lot of gas and was very quick and a little sharp/spooky, as so many good cowhorses are.

We were doing fine the first day, first hour, but my horse, every time we circled to hear what to do next, being a nervous and anxious horse, would stick his head on my back and close his eyes, his way to shut the scary world out.
I had been doing that initial work with the stick and he was responding nicely to all that rubbing, poking and pointing.

Guess that the clinican thought he was "going to sleep on me", as he said and took the leash and wanted to wake him up.
I warned him that he was old, but not pokey, a little quick, to go easy.

Big grin from the clinician, about to show me something.:rolleyes:

He woke that horse up just by stepping up to him.:eek:
The horse took a look at his stance at the end of that leadrope, his stick held as a sword in the other hand and he started shying and running backwards, dragging him all over the arena.:p
He never regained control of him, just half stopped him, said some silly appeasements and handed him over to me again, never in the whole two days to take him to demonstrate again, as he did every other horse time and again.
Just as well, because that would have been a fight I would not have let him go at it, not with my horse.

We were a star pair there, did all the games fine, would move sideways quickly and understood all what we were doing like he had been doing it all his life.
He would run around with me sitting on a barrel forever, etc., because he is a very attuned horse to getting the job done, if you show him and very polite.

The whole experience was fun, even my silly horse seemed to grin and enjoy much of it, mostly that he was back working, so I unretired him after that and he is back on light work, now 22 years old.

I say that such clinics are fun, you get to do more with your horses, stuff that they generally don't do and who knows, some day some of those little things may fit with what you are doing with a specific horse.

Information is never wasted, no matter what it is.

Now, would I have corrected that clinician when he said things I KNOW are different than what he said, like about "collection"?
No way, it was his show and maybe in the way he meant it and practices that is what "collection" is.
That I see it differently is up for discussion, but not there.

That is what I think CA should have done, have a horse of his own to demonstrate with, not one trained so differently that he doesn't know any of the why's of that training and try to untrain it.:confused:

We keep coming back to not knowing enough to know how little he knows.:yes:

I imagine those scenarios happen alot more than folks are led to believe. Like someone said the DVD's only show the good stuff. Priceless! :winkgrin:

Sannois
Aug. 25, 2007, 09:22 AM
I find the whole NH "movement" interesting... NOT from a training point of view (most of what's good and useful is not new... and most of what's not good and not useful is so off-the-wall I have a hard time watching), but from a social perspective...

It's a good thing these guys are only interested in horses, because they certainly have the "sway" evidenced in all effective cult leaders. And how amazing and perplexing that so many are so happy to blindly follow. Their hold is even more clear when we see top professionals like SB and the O'Cs fall under the spell.

Scary.
Some of the die hard followers I am sure have had to drink the "Koolaid"
:winkgrin:

Atigirl
Aug. 25, 2007, 09:31 AM
I have never seen CA in action, but there were a few NH clinics at the barn where I used to board. The first year I decided to watch a bit to see what all the hoopla was about. There were 30-40 horse/owners in this clinic. Most of them were either new horse owners or people that just rode on the trails and kept their horses in the back yard. They eagerly bought up all the recommended "devices" for the clinic. It was basically a little funny and sometimes scary to watch over the course of the weekend. At the end what I found to be disturbing was that the NH guru never once incouraged these "greenies" to take weekly lessons with a local instructor, but told them to "buy up" all of the DVDs, newsletters, etc from him and "have at it on your own" until next years clinic. I found that to be the saddest thing. I have gone to local clinics in the area with some of our "eventing greats" and never once was I told to not take regular instruction. I do believe that some (not all) of these guys act in a cult like way.

flyingchange
Aug. 25, 2007, 10:12 AM
Their hold is even more clear when we see top professionals like SB and the O'Cs fall under the spell.

Scary.

The spell is called $$$$$$

The whole NH thing conjures up images of the traveling quack. Wikipedia has a very nice summary of what quackery is all about - historically and present day. If you substitute NH for medicine in the description, the similarities are pretty consistent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackery

Regarding the O'Connor deal with PP - I remember being completely turned off by them when they started that partnership up. I remember those "spa" OC/PP camps in Colorado where people paid enormous wads of cash to go wave expensive magic wands around their horses. LOL.

Flash44
Aug. 25, 2007, 02:34 PM
There is really no such thing as "Natural Horsemanship," it's just applying the basic psychology principles of positive and negative reinforcement to change a way a horse behaves, or to condition a horse to behave a certain way. I think the NH movement is most effective with people who ride on a recreational basis, and don't have years and years of experience.

DLee
Aug. 25, 2007, 09:20 PM
Regarding the O'Connor deal with PP - I remember being completely turned off by them when they started that partnership up. I remember those "spa" OC/PP camps in Colorado where people paid enormous wads of cash to go wave expensive magic wands around their horses. LOL.

Please get the facts right. :rolleyes: I was AT that camp, were YOU?? It was $2000 for five days, including ALL my food, ALL my horse's food, AND a cabin. It was hot, it was dusty and it was great. It was hardly "spa-like", sorry to disappoint you and poison the rumors with facts.

lstevenson
Aug. 25, 2007, 10:15 PM
Please get the facts right. :rolleyes: I was AT that camp, were YOU?? It was $2000 for five days, including ALL my food, ALL my horse's food, AND a cabin. It was hot, it was dusty and it was great. It was hardly "spa-like", sorry to disappoint you and poison the rumors with facts.



:lol: At least I hope this is tongue in cheek.:uhoh:

DLee
Aug. 25, 2007, 10:39 PM
:lol: At least I hope this is tongue in cheek.:uhoh:

Umm.... sorry? What is your point?

GreekDressageQueen
Aug. 25, 2007, 10:40 PM
Well, I just got about 30 free tickets to see Clinton Anderson. Don't suppose anyone here wants any? :lol::lol::lol:

I will probably just throw them away...seems like he is hurting for attendance if they are giving away so many tickets.

lstevenson
Aug. 25, 2007, 10:44 PM
Umm.... sorry? What is your point?



Oops. Sorry, I honestly thought you were kidding. :lol:

Bluey
Aug. 25, 2007, 11:24 PM
Well, I just got about 30 free tickets to see Clinton Anderson. Don't suppose anyone here wants any? :lol::lol::lol:

I will probably just throw them away...seems like he is hurting for attendance if they are giving away so many tickets.

I would go.:yes: :) :yes:
It is very interesting to watch ANYONE work with horses and they say he is very funny, good entertainment.

So what if at times he may rub you wrong? Surely you are able to take the good and ignore what you don't like, without your blood pressure becoming dangerously high?:winkgrin:

Really, go with an open mind and give credit where due, along with criticism where it is obvious something is lacking.

Don't forget to report back.:cool:

flyingchange
Aug. 26, 2007, 12:32 PM
Please get the facts right. :rolleyes: I was AT that camp, were YOU?? It was $2000 for five days, including ALL my food, ALL my horse's food, AND a cabin. It was hot, it was dusty and it was great. It was hardly "spa-like", sorry to disappoint you and poison the rumors with facts.

I am SOOO disappointed with the facts!!! But your apology is accepted.

HotIITrot
Aug. 26, 2007, 02:57 PM
It should be playing again on RFDTV in a few minutes (3:00) for those who are interested.

Foxygrl516
Aug. 26, 2007, 03:43 PM
Wow... I"m watching it right now and I feel so frustrated for Stephen! Clinton is explaining to him how doing transitions helps control the horse.... And poor stephen is just smiling an nodding as if he hasn't heard it before. Ugh.
Clinton thinks he is teaching stephen how to keep a horse from rushing to fences. My guess is that the horse is speeding up b/c that guy is all over the place over the fences! I bet he wouldn't do that with Stephen in the tack.......

Lori
Aug. 26, 2007, 03:44 PM
OMG!
It is bad enough his hands are in the face of that poor horse....
That man has no business jumping that horse, esp over those size fences when his base is crap.
Now he just stopped it in the middle of the combination and did his wonderful spin thing both ways! WTF is the owner/rider of this horse thinking letting this crock ride that horse??!!!

EnviroGA
Aug. 26, 2007, 03:45 PM
I prefer Chris Cox over CA actually. I am not a huge follower over any particular horse trainer, but I occassionally pop across some episodes on RFDTV, and I will stop and watch Chris Cox. He rides his horses - he doesn't try all of this new mumbo jumbo look what I can do.

WNT
Aug. 26, 2007, 04:40 PM
Did you notice how when SB got back on after CA got done how relieved the horse looked. No wonder he was 'backed off' the bridle, the poor horse didn't know whether he was supposed to go backwards or forwards with CA. He'd let the horse walk off in a nice forward relaxed walk then whip him around with no warning into a circle. SB, I noticed, asked the horse to circle and give on a bigger circle so the horse was still able to be forward and bend around.

Personally, if I have a horse that rushes uncontrollably, I will pull him up or into a circle in a line as long as there is room to! (Although if he rushes that bad, he probably won't be jumping for a while anyway...) I use gymnastics set at a tight distance to make him think about slowing himself down. Not to let him figure out a rhythm for himself, then jerk him out of it. Durh.

BTW > That horse is a friggin' saint.

HotIITrot
Aug. 26, 2007, 08:44 PM
There are definitely two issues being addressed on this thread:

1. The OP’s reference to the CA/SB show.
2. The NH era. I have to say I agree with most people on this one; it’s nothing new.


... It has NO benefits over common sense, good old fashioned regular training ...

I think only uneducated and gullible people fall for the hype, and their cultlike behavior is so obnoxious! :mad: ...

:yes: I agree!


I think the underlying principles in a lot of the NH kooks are sound and good horsemanship. But, then they start seeing $$$$ and everything gets lost in all the hoopla and razzle dazzle :eek:.

YES!!!!!:yes: Unfortunately :no:

I think one of the major reasons people get so annoyed with this whole NH nonsense is that those that promote it are disgustingly money hungry! :no: It comes across as insincere sometimes. Instead of training horses, many are focused on putting on shows/demonstrations, selling their products/newsletters, spreading their name (as in, become a “[insert name here] certified trainer”. Can you say egocentric!!!! :eek:). Many of them are relatively pushy about it too. I don’t find their accomplishments all that impressive either. I’m not saying they aren’t good or anything. They just aren’t as amazing as they make themselves (or their cults make them) out to be.

I don’t know CA, PP or any of the others. I’m sure they’re all effective horsemen, but sometimes they come off as money driven con artists who aren’t really interested in helping you, but rather sell their latest product. I’m not saying they are, but that is the image they portray to me at times. It just rubs me the wrong way.

I have to say, however, that I did enjoy watching an eventing oriented show on TV. :cool: I can see why people are getting so upset with CA, but I honestly didn’t think he was all that bad myself. I admire him for exposing eventing and even giving it a shot himself (well, jumping at least). He did say at the end of the show that everyone should always keep an open mind & not take anything to the extreme. This tells me that he himself is an open minded individual & that his way isn’t the only way!

cheval80
Aug. 26, 2007, 11:01 PM
Not every NH trainer is money hungry. I've read the majority of these posts and none that I've read mention the NH trainers that I admire. The deceased Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman, and the Indians. You just have to admire a Ray Hunt, who has broken out over 10,000 horses himself, and who is still humble. Not everyone promotes NH, but it is the training behind all disciplines.

BarbB
Aug. 27, 2007, 09:08 AM
Not every NH trainer is money hungry. I've read the majority of these posts and none that I've read mention the NH trainers that I admire. The deceased Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Buck Brannaman, and the Indians. You just have to admire a Ray Hunt, who has broken out over 10,000 horses himself, and who is still humble. Not everyone promotes NH, but it is the training behind all disciplines.


I doubt that Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt or Buck Brannaman would appreciate being called NH trainers.
Don't mistake a cowboy hat for NH Marketing Theory.

NH is not "the training behind all disciplines"
NH is a marketing catch phrase invented a few years ago to sell a package that includes how to train a horse in a paint-by-numbers sort of way and a bunch of equipment.

People have been training horses using a good understanding of horses and methods that promote teamwork for thousands of years. What's new is catchy logos, expensive rope halters, DVDs and lots and lots of money changing hands.

purplnurpl
Aug. 27, 2007, 04:00 PM
the problem with NH is that it is BS.

I call it:
Proper equine nutrition and health
and
Training

what is the difference between plain old good horsemanship and "natural" horsemanship?

money?
yup folks...money.



CA can be very entertaining. I still say my favorite are his breaking specials.
1. The one where in 1/2 an hour he teaches viewers to stand on the butt of an unbroke horse.
2. and the one where to break the horse he has some guy in the round pen with a stick and plastic bag....CA mounts and they keep the horse spinning with the scary stick so she can't buck or something.
after a few minutes CA stops her and says, "I had to stop because she was getting dizzy"
brrraaahahahahah...I think CA was dizzy. the horse was frustrated.

BaliBandido
Aug. 27, 2007, 04:04 PM
and saw some interesting things.

I had a horseshow at the same facility where CA was giving a clinic. When we pulled in Thursday evening to get set up etc his crew was there doing the same thing.

He does have a big fancy rig! So they are unloading and I swear it looked like the circus had come to town. All kinds of panels, merchandise, displays etc.

One of the horses, a little bay was stalled down the way from us where we walked by several times a day. This little thing speed weaved for hours and hours on end.

I would get to our show between 4:30 and 5 in the morning to feed and get tack etc ready for the show day and by the time I got there the CA people were already there and were in the arena 'schooling' their horses.

I watched the little bay horse go around and around and around the round pen and watched a woman who was with the CA crew on a little buckskin pull its head side to side repeatedly and get pretty harsh on her 'corrections'. I have not ever seen any of these clinics so not sure if she was doing so called NH at that time or just tuning the horse up to respond when it was used in the clinics.

So come Sat about 9am hoards of people are at this venue, lined up for a long ways. It lasts most of the day and as we are back and forth to the barn and wash rack etc we see the CA horses out of the stalls for most of the day, being used in the demo ring.

Sunday- it is the same thing 5 am those horses are in being tuned up again and used all day. Little bay has weaved a hole in the stall that you could lose a small child in.

We can see people wandering over to the hunter rings with bright yellow bags full of pamphlets, samples from vendors etc etc. It was interesting to hear some of the comments of those folks watching the horses show- there was a lot of ignorence.

Anyway, I did not get to watch the actual clinic- just some of the stuff on the back side. I was not impressed.

Stacie
Aug. 27, 2007, 06:42 PM
Well, I just got about 30 free tickets to see Clinton Anderson. Don't suppose anyone here wants any? :lol::lol::lol:

I will probably just throw them away...seems like he is hurting for attendance if they are giving away so many tickets.

You could not pay me to watch Clinton Anderson again. My daughter and I saw him at a horse expo in VA. He had a young gelding, 2 or 3 Y.O who "didn't respect the halter." The demo area was smallish and had columns in it. He ran the horse ruthlessly on a lunge line using the columns as pivot points for the lunge line so the horse ran on the other side of a column and jacked himself when he ran out of lunge line. It was brutal. I cannot imagine the damage he was doing to the horse's neck. This horse's eyes were rolling and he was terrified. I mean *terrified*. My then 16 year old daughter was in tears. It was horrible and we had to leave.
The same day we saw the O'Connors give a demo with their retired event horses. It was awesome. They demoed ground work where the horses were attentive, relaxed and ubber responsive. Karen rode bareback with a string around the horses neck. The O'Connors train horses. Clinton Anderson is just a bully.

brokenarrowdj
Aug. 28, 2007, 12:00 PM
Hubby and I sat down for a relaxing evening and watched the CA/SB episode last night.

As far as background, Hubby is a working cowboy and trains horses western. He will (under duress) get on an english horse for me and really looks good doing it. We were BOTH mortified for SB and the horse. CA has no base of support or leg and had the horse propped or stumbled, he would have been GONE! The horse was a saint to put up with that crap and, had I been the owner, I would have made CA get off my horse, especially after the 'spin between the in and out' on the grid he did. Eeeeeks! Do that with a greenie or horse that has license to stop anyway, and you are asking for future problems.

I do see his point in doing the circles to slow one down as I had a hunter as a kid that would rush fences, BUT, we did slow circles before the jump, almost using the jump as a side wall, then would let the horse pop the jump when he relaxed, but most definitely not on a line between fences.

thumbsontop
Aug. 28, 2007, 01:17 PM
Can I pipe in here? I agree that there are some NH nuts out there - who go way too far, or are way too harsh. But there are some good methods if you are open-minded. I've never found a trainer that I agree with all of the time. And I firmly believe that every horse responds differently to different methods.

I personally love starting most of my babies/greenies out this way. I have a NH parelli-type (but not official) trainer that I work with regularly, but only for certain things. I don't agree with everything she does, and she tailors to me. Like DON'T start my horse over any kind of pole or obstacle. DON'T hold my brand new foal to the ground to make him submissive. My very, very dull draft cross was perfect for her methods, while I had a nervous pony that I won't let her get near. She has every one of my horses self-loading. I like the ground work and how it teaches them to yield to pressure to different parts of the body. I now see things that my horses communicate that I really didn't see before. More importantly, I realized that sometimes I was communicating to them incorrectly.

After they know the basics, they continue their education somewhere else.

Leahinsj
Aug. 28, 2007, 02:29 PM
[QUOTE=Hey Mickey;2640735]But, Every bit in all of his tack rooms were twisted wires. THere was not one normal snaffle.

the poor guy has sores in his mouth and on his sides from spurs.

[QUOTE]

I know some one who worked at CA's barn for a short amount of time. It was years ago, and they were a "big Fan" of CA, and were going to live their dream of working with him.

She quit shortly after starting. She said the young horses were ridden harshly to get "results" quickly for the $$$ clients. She said she saw bloodied sides from spurs, sores on their mouths. She felt ashamed for being so into a guy that she had no idea was so abusive.

Toadie's mom
Aug. 29, 2007, 12:45 AM
I too was very disappointed in the CA/SB show. I've read most of the replys here and didn't see any comments to the fact that the horse that CA jumped was NOT rushing with Stephen. I thought he was a little sticky to some of the fences, but they were almost all single pole verticles w/o much ground line,etc. As soon as CA got on, the horse was revved up! I think that was by design on CA's part. Got to show some disobedience "somehow, someway" in order to make him look good in correcting it. And BTW didn't anyone think it was terrible that they let him jump (supposedly for the 1st time, which I doubt) without helmet, or vest, on a show that was supposed to be geared toward people wanting information on a discipline they aren't familiar with!?
I've ridden in a clinic under Stephen Bradley and thoroughly enjoyed it. I can't see him being too confrontational, so maybe he thought "discretion the better part of valor".

tx3dayeventer
Aug. 29, 2007, 11:59 AM
I saw this on the "Old People's Riding Club" website and was laughing so had I caught the secretary at work's attention!



Hello my name is Flicka and my Owner's a clinic junky. Yes, it's true. She went thru her mid life crisis and came to the sale barn and bought me. I spent my whole life misbehaving and being passed from Greenhorn to Greenhorn till someone finally got smart and sent me to the sale barn. I was seriously hoping to be picked up by one of those show horse fellas so I could live in a fancy barn and stand around and look pretty, but they told me my butt was too small, my heads too big, and the crest on my neck from a bout with grass founder (thanks to owner number 2) is not desirable, and in general I was just not that capable of looking pretty, so I went home with Phyllis instead.

She pets me and loves me, and in general I had a pretty good life at first. Then she heard about those guys who whisper to horses. Life has never been the same.

First there was Pat. At Pat's clinic Phyllis learned to twirl a big stick and chase me around a round pen till I was ringing wet with sweat. Once I had quote "calmed down" (I was never really fired up in the first place till that guy came at me with the stick like an idiot) she began learning to ride me with no bridle. Talk about giving an old spoiled horse an opportunity to have some fun! Initially I went along with it. I'd lope around the pen real nice like, and everyone would oooh and cooo over my natural horse abilities. Then, just when everyone had gathered around to watch, I would see the SCARIEST!! (tehehehe) shadow in the history of scary shadows and switch directions and take off with my rider clinging terrified to my back. Every other horse on the place was envious of me because their owners would take them out back and beat them with that overpriced stick when no one was watching, but I knew my Phyllis would not. Eventually Philly (as I like to call her) gave up on the whole natural horse idea when Pat tried to talk her into jumping me without a bridle over some barrels.

Off we went in search of another guru. In our search, we found Monty. He threw a string at a horse and talked to the horse with winks and stares. I spent some time with his clinic horses. I saw the demonstration where an unbroken 2 year old became an overnight Reiner. Later I talked to the 2 year old. He was actually 5 and had been doing this same routine for about 5 clinics now. The first time Phyllis broke out the string I again, went along with it. Well, until she got tired of me stopping and looking at her like she was stupid. When she went to get herself a glass of water and refer to that chapter in Monty's book I grabbed the string and chewed it to pieces. And this is how I got my Jolly ball!

Then there was the Indian fella with a name I can't pronounce. To get the full effect of his clinic Philly painted stuff on my body and put feathers in my hair. I looked like I was in a Costume class, but hey whatever floats your boat. I thought maybe at least with this guy we might get to play Indian pony games and have mock battles or something but no. More round pen work and gimmicks. This time there was a fire in the middle of the round pen and they danced around it while praying that I would become a good horse and always mind my owner. He only took her for a couple thousand pelts and a bottle of firewater.

There's been the Australian guy. Training with a Boomerang while he hopped around like a kangaroo and called me his mate Sorry fella, you're cute and all, but my mate has 4 legs. I just don't swing interspecies. A horse psychic who told Phyllis my momma didn't lick me enough when I was born. A guy who used his hands like ears to talk to me and of course the touchy feely lady.

I can't complain though I've got an owner who loves me and has devoted her time to trying to make me a better horse. I really should behave, really I should, but I think I am contributing to her youth by giving her a reason to take me to all these clinics. Maybe the next clinic will involve turning me out with the mustangs so I find my inner wild stallion.
Sincerely, Flicka

Eventer13
Aug. 29, 2007, 01:07 PM
:lol::lol::lol:

But who is the guy who used his hands like ears? I'm not familiar with him.

caffeinated
Aug. 29, 2007, 01:36 PM
As soon as CA got on, the horse was revved up! I think that was by design on CA's part. Got to show some disobedience "somehow, someway" in order to make him look good in correcting it.

Which would be in line completely with what owners (whose horses were used in the CA show) have said in the past. :)

nc_eventer
Aug. 29, 2007, 08:24 PM
Apparently there is more to the CA- SB alliance. I think it was yesterday that CA was "working" with one of SB's friends Clark Davis who has a disrespectful NZ TB. I couldn't watch all of it but this was part one and it was titled something like Working on the ground with TBs. Unfortunately that leads me to believe there will be a part 2 perhaps undersaddle? Hopefully not by CA! Ahh!

flyingchange
Aug. 29, 2007, 08:26 PM
The first time Phyllis broke out the string I again, went along with it. Well, until she got tired of me stopping and looking at her like she was stupid. When she went to get herself a glass of water and refer to that chapter in Monty's book I grabbed the string and chewed it to pieces. And this is how I got my Jolly ball!


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

chisamba
Aug. 30, 2007, 10:01 AM
I did not see the shows, I don't have the channel.
But I am not a fan of C.A.

He lives relativly near to me, (about 2.5 away) He had an open house/barn 2 years ago. So my trainer and I went, because we are firm belivers in you can learn something from anyone. We did, He does a lot more desensiting than we do, so we've done more of that since then.


I agree, not that many actually reads these posts, most people just jump on the bandwagon of heaping on the flames!

I saw a CA thing on TV. Knew nothing about the guy, but he was desensitizing a horse. There was nothing abusive, and nothing impatient, just reducing the horses fear. I have done a lot more of that too.

I very much admired an old trainer who did a lot of groundwork. Bending, backing, round pen work, and teaching the horse to whoa on command. One day at a show, one of his youth riders fell, and got tangled in the reins, the horse paniced and was on its way to dragging the kid when he stepped into the ring and said WHOA. The horse stopped, and allowed him to untangle the kid.

On the opposite side of the scale, we were at a show where a lady was tacking her horse up next to her trailer. She was putting on the bridle, and did not hold the reins. Something spooked the horse, he backed up, her foot got caught in the reins,and he took of. I cannot tell you how appalling it was. her head was dragging on the asphalt, as he ran and she was screaming. he went around a parked trailer, and she slid under it, leaving her face on the fender. Finally the rein broke. She had not back to her head, and no face, when they loaded her into the ambulance. it would have been nice if she could have said WHOA, and stopped the whole thing.

To all of you spouting abuse, etc, try to be as open minded as SB. take what you like, dont use what you dont like, and remember you can learn something new every day if you open your mind.

BarbB
Aug. 30, 2007, 11:10 AM
I very much admired an old trainer who did a lot of groundwork. Bending, backing, round pen work, and teaching the horse to whoa on command. One day at a show, one of his youth riders fell, and got tangled in the reins, the horse paniced and was on its way to dragging the kid when he stepped into the ring and said WHOA. The horse stopped, and allowed him to untangle the kid.

On the opposite side of the scale, we were at a show where a lady was tacking her horse up next to her trailer. She was putting on the bridle, and did not hold the reins. Something spooked the horse, he backed up, her foot got caught in the reins,and he took of. I cannot tell you how appalling it was. her head was dragging on the asphalt, as he ran and she was screaming. he went around a parked trailer, and she slid under it, leaving her face on the fender. Finally the rein broke. She had not back to her head, and no face, when they loaded her into the ambulance. it would have been nice if she could have said WHOA, and stopped the whole thing.

To all of you spouting abuse, etc, try to be as open minded as SB. take what you like, dont use what you dont like, and remember you can learn something new every day if you open your mind.

Did this have anything to do with CA...or any other NH trainer? If so, I missed it.
Cowboy hat does NOT equal NH trainer. Nor does groundwork equal NH trainer.
Cowboy hats are worn by many many people in the west and SW. Groundwork is done by most horse trainers.

Because NH trainers claim to have invented horse training in the 20th century does not make it so.

snoopy
Aug. 30, 2007, 11:15 AM
[QUOTE=nc_eventer;2653794]Apparently there is more to the CA- SB alliance. QUOTE]


I'll bet!!;)

chisamba
Aug. 30, 2007, 02:19 PM
Did this have anything to do with CA...or any other NH trainer? If so, I missed it.
Cowboy hat does NOT equal NH trainer. Nor does groundwork equal NH trainer.
Cowboy hats are worn by many many people in the west and SW. Groundwork is done by most horse trainers.

Because NH trainers claim to have invented horse training in the 20th century does not make it so.

Who, other then you, said anything about a cowboy hat? He ( the trainer I admire) was not a Western Trainer, but and advocate of round pen work, in hand work... somewhat trademarks of the NH (as you put it) trainers. What I am suggesting is that most of us do not put enough work in with our horses on the ground. I just have to look around at shows to see it. I am wondering how many of the people here on the flaming bandwagon have put in enough work on the ground to be able to safely diffuse and unusual and potentially dangerous situation.

bornfreenowexpensive
Aug. 30, 2007, 02:30 PM
[quote=nc_eventer;2653794]Apparently there is more to the CA- SB alliance. QUOTE]


I'll bet!!;)



OK...that is just soooo WRong ...but made me laugh (hard)!!!

BarbB
Aug. 30, 2007, 03:56 PM
I am wondering how many of the people here on the flaming bandwagon have put in enough work on the ground to be able to safely diffuse and unusual and potentially dangerous situation.

What makes you think that they haven't?

snoopy
Aug. 30, 2007, 04:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foH4eTovuZU


Well then, I wonder "who" this guy worked with when it comes to his NH...might be a bit cold for CA in sweden.

Ja Da Dee
Aug. 30, 2007, 05:08 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foH4eTovuZU


Well then, I wonder "who" this guy worked with when it comes to his NH...might be a bit cold for CA in sweden.


Oh my, that was funny! That horse is a saint. What a sweetie pie.

snoopy
Aug. 30, 2007, 05:12 PM
well I had to laugh as my guys run to the far end of the paddock when they hear the lawn mower coming...and once, one of my guys refused to go on the trailer, had I hooked him up to it, I think he would happily choose going on it instead of pulling it!!!!

Dr. Doolittle
Aug. 30, 2007, 10:09 PM
:lol: :lol:

That is hilarious! :lol:

Yes, that horse is *remarkably* unflappable :D Would that they were ALL like that! (But if that *were* the case, it would put the bogus NHers right outa business...:p)

pwynnnorman
Aug. 31, 2007, 06:30 AM
Just a question: What did the poster on page 7 mean by this?


It is bad enough his hands are in the face of that poor horse....

I'm wondering because I had a woman briefly riding for me who was into NH and she did this weird thing (I was forever telling her to stop handling my horses that way: I don't care if baby tosses its head when you walk into its face and try to pet it near its eye--and I sure as heck am not paying you to "de-sensitize" my 2-year-old; just snap the leadrope on it and put it in the damn stall), or even if my young stallion won't let you bridle him because you handle him like you are all thumbs). Anyway, what she did was kinda go "boo" without the "boo" with her hands. Standing right in front of them, she threw her hands up and wiggled her fingers in their faces.

The last day she worked for me I spoke to her sharply about doing that with the stallion ("sharply" because I'd already told her several times to stop). To each their own, I say--emphasis here on "own" as in MINE. That's the stupidity that gets me frothing at the mouth: the way these charlatans NEVER discuss horses as the individual creatures they are. And the stupid little things their "clientele" need to learn, but hours later never come close to being taught: like NOT walking directly up to the front of a horse or, as done by another rider I had who was appalling, NOT banging or dropping the bit against the horse's teeth when bridling or unbridling...oh, or another pet peeve of minme, how about NOT abruptly dropping the poor horse's foot onto the cement after picking it out!

IMO, that's the kind of stuff the greenhorns who tend to flock to those NH'ers need to learn--THEY need to be sensitized, not the friggin' horse DE-sensitized!

[Sorry, I had a tiny snifter of B&B before bed last night and woke up with a headache and a case of the bitchies.]

monstrpony
Aug. 31, 2007, 08:22 AM
I direct a mathematics tutoring center at the college level, and I can tell you that a student's inablility to integrate a concept or process, even following repeated exposures, is seldom a reflection on the instructor's competence with the material ;).

What I don't understand is how these so-called NH showmen types seem to seive out the masses and find themselves left with such a high concentration of the kind of students for whom learning is such a challenge. Perhaps it is just because so many of them have taken a topic that by necessity is complex, variable, and requires some intuition--and attempted to reduce it to a simple recipe. Can't be done with any reliable degree of success. Too bad that horses have to pay the price.

tbtrailrider
Sep. 16, 2009, 12:46 PM
I have recently been given the task of starting my bosses two year old TWH's. She had a CA trainer come out and work with the first group of three, but for whatever reason, she is no longer training for us. She likes all that flexing crap.
My experience training youngsters is all thoroughbred training. We started them out by turning them in the stall for a week, both directions. The next week we bellied them in the stall both directions, with a ground person. The next week we saddled them, and were led around a small paddock with someone leading them .(all the while giving cues to turn, stop, etc.) By the fourth week we were on our own in a big field..jogging around like old pros.
I have tried incorporating CA methods along with the only way i know to start a young horse...which I described above, but I am meeting a lot of resistance from these hammer headed TWH's.
I can bend them til I am blue in the face...they still fight the bit....refuse to move forward unless someone is leading them, and when strongly asked...they rear.:mad:
CA is a buffoon.

cutemudhorse
Sep. 16, 2009, 07:07 PM
I prefer Chris Cox over CA actually. I am not a huge follower over any particular horse trainer, but I occassionally pop across some episodes on RFDTV, and I will stop and watch Chris Cox. He rides his horses - he doesn't try all of this new mumbo jumbo look what I can do.

I agree. Chris is an all around horseman.

We can all learn something from almost everyone, but there are defintely things that some of the 'top' or big name trainers do that are over the top, regardless of discipline. We are on a journey to pick and choose what techniques can work for us, and should be open minded enough to see that there are new things from other disciplines that can work. Not everyone is ready to open themselves up to try new things and give them time to work.

My horses that I started using Chris Cox' techniques are much lighter and reach for the bit waay better than a young mare that I paid a dressage trainer to start.

BTW -- no I don't like how CA rides at all, but his extensive groundwork program can work wonders. It is not the end -all and yes he is excessive. Take what you need from it and temper it with good skills is reading your horse, something he can do but forgets and just picks at them to entertain himself.

lstevenson
Sep. 16, 2009, 08:45 PM
I saw this on the "Old People's Riding Club" website and was laughing so had I caught the secretary at work's attention!



Hello my name is Flicka and my Owner's a clinic junky. Yes, it's true. She went thru her mid life crisis and came to the sale barn and bought me. I spent my whole life misbehaving and being passed from Greenhorn to Greenhorn till someone finally got smart and sent me to the sale barn. I was seriously hoping to be picked up by one of those show horse fellas so I could live in a fancy barn and stand around and look pretty, but they told me my butt was too small, my heads too big, and the crest on my neck from a bout with grass founder (thanks to owner number 2) is not desirable, and in general I was just not that capable of looking pretty, so I went home with Phyllis instead.

She pets me and loves me, and in general I had a pretty good life at first. Then she heard about those guys who whisper to horses. Life has never been the same.

First there was Pat. At Pat's clinic Phyllis learned to twirl a big stick and chase me around a round pen till I was ringing wet with sweat. Once I had quote "calmed down" (I was never really fired up in the first place till that guy came at me with the stick like an idiot) she began learning to ride me with no bridle. Talk about giving an old spoiled horse an opportunity to have some fun! Initially I went along with it. I'd lope around the pen real nice like, and everyone would oooh and cooo over my natural horse abilities. Then, just when everyone had gathered around to watch, I would see the SCARIEST!! (tehehehe) shadow in the history of scary shadows and switch directions and take off with my rider clinging terrified to my back. Every other horse on the place was envious of me because their owners would take them out back and beat them with that overpriced stick when no one was watching, but I knew my Phyllis would not. Eventually Philly (as I like to call her) gave up on the whole natural horse idea when Pat tried to talk her into jumping me without a bridle over some barrels.

Off we went in search of another guru. In our search, we found Monty. He threw a string at a horse and talked to the horse with winks and stares. I spent some time with his clinic horses. I saw the demonstration where an unbroken 2 year old became an overnight Reiner. Later I talked to the 2 year old. He was actually 5 and had been doing this same routine for about 5 clinics now. The first time Phyllis broke out the string I again, went along with it. Well, until she got tired of me stopping and looking at her like she was stupid. When she went to get herself a glass of water and refer to that chapter in Monty's book I grabbed the string and chewed it to pieces. And this is how I got my Jolly ball!

Then there was the Indian fella with a name I can't pronounce. To get the full effect of his clinic Philly painted stuff on my body and put feathers in my hair. I looked like I was in a Costume class, but hey whatever floats your boat. I thought maybe at least with this guy we might get to play Indian pony games and have mock battles or something but no. More round pen work and gimmicks. This time there was a fire in the middle of the round pen and they danced around it while praying that I would become a good horse and always mind my owner. He only took her for a couple thousand pelts and a bottle of firewater.

There's been the Australian guy. Training with a Boomerang while he hopped around like a kangaroo and called me his mate Sorry fella, you're cute and all, but my mate has 4 legs. I just don't swing interspecies. A horse psychic who told Phyllis my momma didn't lick me enough when I was born. A guy who used his hands like ears to talk to me and of course the touchy feely lady.

I can't complain though I've got an owner who loves me and has devoted her time to trying to make me a better horse. I really should behave, really I should, but I think I am contributing to her youth by giving her a reason to take me to all these clinics. Maybe the next clinic will involve turning me out with the mustangs so I find my inner wild stallion.
Sincerely, Flicka


:lol::lol::lol: OMG that is too funny!

yventer
Sep. 16, 2009, 10:12 PM
Instead of resurrecting a two-year old thread, perhaps you could start a new one? Just a thought.

Foxtrot's
Sep. 16, 2009, 11:13 PM
I've finally - after being caught a few times - learned to look at the dates the threads were started BEFORE I start reading. Bye.