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purplnurpl
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:03 PM
~Parents and I were watching a Parelli special.

He was talking about pressure or something, I wasn't really paying attention for obvious reasons.

Until he blabs:
[Sorry, I just snorked.]

You see those dressage riders going around? tight rein = no brain.

He said that out loud in a clinic that was aired on TV.
What a loser.
Kind of like when we were in highschool and some girls would say mean things about others just to make themselves feel better.


You would think that a pro such as Parelli would be above that kind of behavior.
So sad.

flshgordon
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:05 PM
The man is a moron with a marketing degree....who gives a flip what he and his crappy-riding wife have to say about dressage! :winkgrin:

Sansena
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:06 PM
Wouldn't it have been great if those that disagree with him simply got up and walked OUT?

And, if he thinks following feel equals 'tight' then his ignorance is showing. If anybody had doubts about him before, this cinched the deal.

LR1976
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:11 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: NICE.

Lumu
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:13 PM
Yet another example of someone with no real understanding of a disclipline passing judgement on it, erroneously, and thereby showing their own ignorance, methink!

Ghazzu
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:21 PM
I think he (or more likely she--PP was far less noxious in the pre-Linda days) must have been severely frightened by someone in a shadbelly and top hat as a young child.

citydog
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:22 PM
I think he (or more likely she--PP was far less noxious in the pre-Linda days) must have been severely frightened by someone in a shadbelly and top hat as a young child.

:lol::lol::lol:

Dianna
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:25 PM
A few years back, our local horse paper ran articles about his techniques. I very rarely paid attention as my blood pressure has enough issues of its own, without adding his kind of atrocity to the horse world to it.

Anyway. He had a picture of him sitting on the ground lunging a horse. Well, that was more than I could stand. His ranch is in Pagosa near my husband's family's, so I went ahead and faxed a fairly nasty letter to his "company" about the fact that in no reality should anybody think sitting on the ground, crossed legged, while lunging a horse was a good idea. Their response was something about the levels of their training .. and my final response was that I would hope that as you move through the levels of understanding that you would really understand that you should not sit on the ground while working a horse.

Well, low and behold, the next month's picture was two people, sitting on a 50-gallon drum, lunging 2 horses in the same round pen ... my only comment faxed to him was "do you people have a problem with being able to stand on your own two feet?" Needless to say, there was no response.

dray
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:25 PM
Yeah, I heard that "tight rein no brain" also. I thought I heard it wrong and backed it up. ???What I really LOVE about those shows are the "candidvcouch clips" where the Parellis admire themselves. Quintessential narcissism. But then, you have to love yourself.

I made the mistake of sending one of my horses to someone who was a closet Parelli disciple.This is someone I've known for a long time and an excellet rider.

I had not had the opportunity to see Mr. Parelli lately until this summer when I saw some of those shows on RFD TV or whatever that station is. Eye opening, isn't it?

HOWEVER, after 90 days, my mare loaded in the trailer without leading (a la Parelli)...note that said horse loaded fine to go to trainer. She also did the games in the round pen...jumping barrells and walking over stuff. And yes, I had checked on my horse many times and kept getting the "we're almost there" and "you're going to be so pleased" reponses about how FAR my horse was progressing. And yes, you could sort of ride ehr in the round pen, but not enough miles for what I had expected. Jumping barrells loose in a ring...big hairy deal...I wanted her to be a riding horse.

So, when summer passes, she will go to someone else.

He is a marketing genius. Gotta hand him that. Insidious.

Donna

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:25 PM
We are always threatened by what we do not understand.

EssentialEQST
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:32 PM
I hate that people call BASIC HORSEMANSHIP SKILLS "Pat Parelli". No, its the bare bones basics that anyone that works with or around horses needs to know. Pecking orders as well.

Lancaster9
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:34 PM
Yes, Sansena is right... As a former theatre student I had a professor who insisted that his students walk out of any performance that they felt was below-par, in the interest of preserving artistic standards. The same should apply with clinicians, whatever their ilk.

However, it's important to remember that most Parelli people don't have a lot of (or any) experience of dressage or other English disciplines. It can help to take an attitude of education toward them, rather than antagonism. What I mean by this is that we should forgive them their skepticism and try to educate them about what a positive rein contact is.

I had the opportunity to do this with a certified Parelli trainer last month. She asked me if I ride with a short rein and I explained to her that in (proper) dressage, we think about the hind end first, and the back, and that contact should be light and following but consistent. She seemed to "get it", and her explanation to me made sense also: she said that most people in her area who practice NH have backyard horses that they only ride a couple of times a week if that. It's not fair to ask them to use themselves in a way that they are physically unfit for - or that the rider is unskilled for - so no "everyday" rider should be asking for too much "collection" (her words not mine). Okay, it's not an ironclad reasoning but maybe it does a wee bit to lessen the chasm between the two schools of thought. Repeat, maybe.

Agreed though, very unprofessional (but not surprising) behaviour from PP.

moonriverfarm
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:36 PM
He needs to take his carrot stick and shove it up his arse. While playing the Seven Games. Marketing genius or not, this man is slicker than owl poop.

eqsiu
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:43 PM
Short rein also equals spooky, according to that program. Apparently your horse will spook if you have a short (read: contact) rein because he can't think. Of course, it seems to me that the point of all the natural horsemanship is partly to get the horse to let us think for him. Trusting that we will keep him safe and all that. Go figure.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:44 PM
I've heard the same sort of thing from hunter trainers. I.e., "Dressage riders give horses 'hard mouths."

It's just ignorance. And jealousy, I might add. A horse that is balanced and muscled through systematic dressage training becomes more physically beautiful and his gaits improve. Anyone whose horses don't look or go like that, needs to paint dressage riders as bad in order to keep their clients. Oh, and to explain why they can't ride a horse like that....

slc2
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:44 PM
the 'peas' as my friend calls them are only threatened by things that might lure students away from them.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:46 PM
the 'peas' as my friend calls them are only threatened by things that might lure students away from them.

Ka-ching. Right on the money with that comment!

ccoronios
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:55 PM
First off: Flame suit on. Caveat: While at one point in my life I was a pretty decent rider (at least, several international-level trainers thought so), I do NOT claim to know much of anything about Natural Horsemanship, nor do I claim much knowledge about Littauer's methods. Had an instructor who bastardized them and really turned me off to him; then learned some basics from one of his REAL proteges.
All that said.....

I think that the response about most NH followers makes a LOT of sense and makes the logic behind the method sensible. As any experienced competitive rider knows, it takes a great deal of practice, toning and training to ride a horse into balance and collection - as well as toning and training for the horse to be able to balance itself. We've all seen way too many wannabes who looked at the pictures and attempt to copy them - by hauling on their horses' mouths and flailing around on top of them, making balance IMPOSSIBLE even for a well-muscled horse.

It sort of sounds to me a little like what I understood Littauer's theory to be (at the MOST BASIC LEVEL) - that not everyone had the time to spend building a totally secure seat, but wanted to be safe and have fun hunting or otherwise galloping cross country - so the forward seat was created.

Just because "we" want to dedicate every waking hour to improving our riding doesn't mean that everyone who loves horses does (or is able to). So doesn't it make sense to try to create a safe, sane animal and a non-injurious rider? These aren't folks who are headed for the Olympics, after all - just a weekend trail ride with their friends.

Moll
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:56 PM
Well, I can see what he means: I see 90% too tight reins and too much contact in dressage.

slc2
Aug. 14, 2007, 01:59 PM
well then you fell for it honey, so it must be an effective ad campaign!

cinder88
Aug. 14, 2007, 02:01 PM
I wonder how they explained away this comment to Herr Zettl?

Funny how they have a dressage master to visit and work with them, but still spout this crap.

Cinder

yaya
Aug. 14, 2007, 02:06 PM
Wouldn't it have been great if those that disagree with him simply got up and walked OUT?



Probably wouldn't make any difference. They already have your money.

appychik
Aug. 14, 2007, 02:40 PM
Just because "we" want to dedicate every waking hour to improving our riding doesn't mean that everyone who loves horses does (or is able to). So doesn't it make sense to try to create a safe, sane animal and a non-injurious rider? These aren't folks who are headed for the Olympics, after all - just a weekend trail ride with their friends.

True. And I definitely see your point. Many people just want a sane horse to trail ride - you know, the safe "husband proof" one?

But, it's pretty harsh saying a comment like that in respect to dressage. Dressage has a history that stretches further back then most any other type of discipline, I believe. Heck, one of it's primary purposes was for battle - getting a responsive horse, etc. We all know the history, but it's pure ignorance to state something like that on public television. Those aren't the facts.

Hmm. Makes me think twice about learning more about the "peas". I'll stick to the John Lyons stuff. I'm still not a disciple, by any means, of NH, but I've attended some clinics by Bob Johnson who does www.thecommonhorseman.com and I've learned a lot. It seems to me he sorta follows the Lyons ways of thinking, but does things a little different. Doesn't mean I think everything he says is correct, but it's helped my guys with some issues.

Still, don't diss dressage - unless you know the facts.

TBROCKS
Aug. 14, 2007, 02:46 PM
OK, I'm the LAST person to defend Parelli. Check out any of my prior posts and you'll see, I have nothing good to say about it. Unfortunately, I've had to learn more about it than I ever wanted just by exposure to the Kool-Aid drinkers at my barn who eat drink and breathe it.
All this is leading up to this comment: I believe, in Parelli-speak, that he is referring to the HORSE. Tight rein = no brain...Parelli-ites believe that when you ride with contact your horse stops thinking. In that context it is probably marginally less insulting, but nonetheless, inaccurate.

ccoronios
Aug. 14, 2007, 02:57 PM
I absolutely did not mean to excuse his comment. The only point one makes by 'dissing' others in such a public forum - or anyplace else, for that matter - is how little the speaker knows.

Customers are constantly (well, not so much now after 14 years) when we tell them that we video and photograph all breeds/ disciplines because we LIKE to watch good horses doing "their thing" well. We learn from each.

veebug22
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:11 PM
I don't think he meant this in the way you think. "No brain" isn't in reference to the riders. He is comparing a loose rein or on the buckle ride -- where the horse has to take more responsibility for himself -- to a more connected ride. Now I do jumpers, but I've done my time in the hunter/eq ring, and I have a good dressage foundation. My pet peeve is seeing people ride on a too-long rein for the work they are asking their horse to do (i.e. in the jumper ring, etc.). Obviously you can't achieve the levels of connection and collection needed for certain movements through a loose rein. But that's not his point... his point is that a horse on a looser rein has more autonomy, and for them to accept that and stay balanced, straight, etc. means they accept more responsibility. I took some Parelli lessons many years ago when I was at my wit's end with my gelding. He was incredibly spooky and unpredictable. I do NOT agree with many things they say, but I do agree with some. And it did make a huge difference with my horse, and I know a number of other good h/j riders and trainers that have had some success with his methods. The focus is on making your horse more of a thinker, and to have him "check in" with you before he flees something. So instead of spooking on a loose rein, he has to learn to work through the situation, and not just because he is being made to. I can keep my horse on task through a spook by leg-yielding, bending, etc., but the Parelli method asks that horse to stay on task without that additional support from the rider (i.e. on a loos rein). That's what he means by brain vs. no brain -- he means how much the horse is using their brain. I don't think he was saying dressage folks don't use their brain when they use a short rein.

ybiaw
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:14 PM
What a freakin' Yahoo.

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:21 PM
PP has a point about short reins! IMHO. The backyard person should ride without a bit again IMHO. I myself used the shorter reins wrong after taking lessons with trainers that taught me to wag the head and see saw. IT wasnt until I took a lesson with a better known trainer and she yelled at me "DONT EVER DO THAT AGAIN - NO BUMPING - NO SEE SAWING - NO REINING BACK- EVER EVER EVER!" that I had a clue.

TBROCKS
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:25 PM
I don't think he meant this in the way you think. "No brain" isn't in reference to the riders. He is comparing a loose rein or on the buckle ride -- where the horse has to take more responsibility for himself -- to a more connected ride. Now I do jumpers, but I've done my time in the hunter/eq ring, and I have a good dressage foundation. My pet peeve is seeing people ride on a too-long rein for the work they are asking their horse to do (i.e. in the jumper ring, etc.). Obviously you can't achieve the levels of connection and collection needed for certain movements through a loose rein. But that's not his point... his point is that a horse on a looser rein has more autonomy, and for them to accept that and stay balanced, straight, etc. means they accept more responsibility. I took some Parelli lessons many years ago when I was at my wit's end with my gelding. He was incredibly spooky and unpredictable. I do NOT agree with many things they say, but I do agree with some. And it did make a huge difference with my horse, and I know a number of other good h/j riders and trainers that have had some success with his methods. The focus is on making your horse more of a thinker, and to have him "check in" with you before he flees something. So instead of spooking on a loose rein, he has to learn to work through the situation, and not just because he is being made to. I can keep my horse on task through a spook by leg-yielding, bending, etc., but the Parelli method asks that horse to stay on task without that additional support from the rider (i.e. on a loos rein). That's what he means by brain vs. no brain -- he means how much the horse is using their brain. I don't think he was saying dressage folks don't use their brain when they use a short rein.

I concur, that was his meaning. And it's total bullsh*t. The premise of a horse gaining confidence from a loose rein has no basis in the reality of riding. The Parelli horses at my barn spook plenty as they noodle-neck around on their loose reins.

purplnurpl
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:29 PM
I understood his comment correctly.

apparently our dressage horses can't think.
they don't think about their surroundings...but they think about the task at hand. lol.
either way, it was a negative comment made by a pro in public for the rest of the world to hear. I would have thought he' smarter than that. that's all.

and PP did use the phrasing "those dressage riders" so he was paying reference to the rider.

TBROCKS
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:34 PM
PP has a point about short reins! IMHO. The backyard person should ride without a bit again IMHO. I myself used the shorter reins wrong after taking lessons with trainers that taught me to wag the head and see saw. IT wasnt until I took a lesson with a better known trainer and she yelled at me "DONT EVER DO THAT AGAIN - NO BUMPING - NO SEE SAWING - NO REINING BACK- EVER EVER EVER!" that I had a clue.

I just wanted to quote this in case you decided to remove it later on :lol:

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:35 PM
I hate the Parelli's.
That is why I was so pissed off when these crack pots bought Judy Yancey's Hotline colt. A very well bred horse that will be RUINED to go the the circus games of Parelli hands. Its not hard to tell they bought this horse only to try to "prove a point" or some other insane crap they normally spout and I will cringe to see this super colt being chased around with a carrot stick at a yearling.
A waste, a total waste of superb horseflesh in the hands of the worlds biggest con artisits of the equine nation.
*sorry JY if this upsets you, but I have had my own dealings with these jerks*
I have just been around and personally listened to those jackasses say horrible (and VERY incorrect) things about our sport of dressage and put down principals of correct training that those clowns have NO idea about, no less have any idea of what they are talking about.
I feel for all of you who have been taken by the Parelli cult.

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:37 PM
and PP did use the phrasing "those dressage riders" so he was paying reference to the rider.

Well, we may be "those dressage riders" but they are "those circus clowns" who steal people money based on simple horsemanship that they try to over exzagerate and make complicated!
They are nothing more than Horsie Amway!

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:40 PM
I concur, that was his meaning. And it's total bullsh*t. The premise of a horse gaining confidence from a loose rein has no basis in the reality of riding. The Parelli horses at my barn spook plenty as they noodle-neck around on their loose reins.

I tell you....... its a cult and they make it up as they go. ITs good salemanship, thats all. Water in a bottle made up to be the wonder drug. Idiots.

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:43 PM
I wonder how they explained away this comment to Herr Zettl

Poor WAZ did his best with the lacking. God love him!

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:45 PM
IN college station yrs ago, LP was yapping her jaws about how bad dressage was and left a very negative air of dressage overall. She was nasty and ugly about it as well. You want to talk about people dishing other people disiplines, someone needs to START with them!!!

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:45 PM
Can yall tell this hit a nerve?? :lol:

Kenike
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:49 PM
I don't know what hunter trainers told Eclectic Horseman that "dressage riders give horses hard mouths," but I, as a H/J rider, have never heard that. But, I digress....

This is just another reason for me to shudder at PP stuff. I've had reason before, but they just keep getting worse. I won't even take the chance of looking at horses or ponies advertised as PP trained. If for n other reason than I hate the "I'm better than anyone else" attitude coming from that camp.

Aggie4Bar
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:54 PM
Can yall tell this hit a nerve?? :lol:
I think you should stop holding back, and tell us how you really feel. :D

Mozart
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:54 PM
Can yall tell this hit a nerve?? :lol:

Oh, STF, come on tell us how you REALLY feel :lol::lol:

Mozart
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:56 PM
I think you should stop holding back, and tell us how you really feel. :D
Aggie, you and I are thinking alike again!!! :eek:

dalpal
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:56 PM
IN college station yrs ago, LP was yapping her jaws about how bad dressage was and left a very negative air of dressage overall. She was nasty and ugly about it as well. You want to talk about people dishing other people disiplines, someone needs to START with them!!!


Linda needs to come see my horses' toplines after a year working with a very knowledagable dressage trainer. Even my 17 year old's back has really changed/muscled up.

DownYonder
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:57 PM
I have no dog in this fight. I don't know the Parelli's from Adam's house cat. I've never been to a Parelli demonstration or clinic, I've never watched a Parelli video, and I'm not sure I would even recognize one of them if I ran into them on the street (doesn't Pat have a big mustache?).

But it seems that this is tit for tat. They say "terrible things about dressage", dressage people say terrible things about their methods. What is the difference? (And I ask that in all innocense as a dressage devotee.)

As far as marketing goes - they aren't the only ones in the horse world to make a good living by being slick marketeers. There is at least one major WB registry operating here that has made a TON of money over the years for its silver-tongued owner, as well as plenty of other folks who have done OK by being good at the marketing game.

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:57 PM
See.... that is what the Parellidipwadpair dont understand, that when a horse is correctly trained and brought up the trianing scale that collection comes from strength of the hind and back. The horse is always light in our hands and light in the front.
But, they will tell you different because THEY (P and L) are the experts of horses and ALL training methods.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 14, 2007, 03:58 PM
I don't know what hunter trainers told Eclectic Horseman that "dressage riders give horses hard mouths," but I, as a H/J rider, have never heard that. But, I digress....


Old timers that ride field hunters and do hunter trials, etc. in addition to show ring hunters, The younger trainers, particularly those that do jumpers, seem to understand and accept dressage principles. Some of them even cross train with dressage instructors. :winkgrin:

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:00 PM
I have no dog in this fight. I don't know the Parelli's from Adam's house cat. I've never been to a Parelli demonstration or clinic, I've never watched a Parelli video, and I'm not sure I would even recognize one of them if I ran into them on the street (doesn't Pat have a big mustache?).

But it seems that this is tit for tat. They say "terrible things about dressage", dressage people say terrible things about their methods. What is the difference? (And I ask that in all innocense as a dressage devotee.)

As far as marketing goes - they aren't the only ones in the horse world to make a good living by being slick marketeers. There is at least one major WB registry operating here that has made a TON of money over the years for its silver-tongued owner, as well as plenty of other folks who have done OK by being good at the marketing game.

Chris, the only thing I have against it all is there are so many people in this cult that are getting a bad impression of our sport. Linda was very negative in College Station about what we do and VERY incorrect on what she said. THey are misleading people who dont have a clue of our true sport into thinking its harmful for a horse.
Educated people (which they are not) know that dressage training in the correct way, can help the horse stay sound, healthy and mentally balanced. But those fartfaces, dont explain it that way.

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:06 PM
Watching them on a lunge line doing figure 8;s on young baby horses at 100mph is soooooooooooo good for their joints, aint it!? :lol:

I dont care what they do on their own time. They could stick their head up the horses ass for all I care, but they need to shut their mouth on dressage matters that they know NOTHING about.

Training with WAZ is not what they needed. WAZ is the nicest person you could ever meet and would not hurt someone feelings even if he needed to. Those crackpots need to go train with someone like Ernst Hoyos, Krya Kyrklund, etc. You know "Those dressage trainers" who have sound and healthy horses doing this sport, even into the late teen and early 20's, cuz it soooo horrible for the horse! :lol: Not to mention, those type would prob. tell Linda she was a disgrace to a horse and excuse her from the ring anyway! :lol:
Gosh, I loath them!!!

Rusty Stirrup
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:09 PM
There is nothing "natural" in what PP's show has morphed into.

And I hope he meant "bad dressage riders". For him to make a blanket statement like that after the gracious reactions He and She (expecially She) received from WAZ during their embarrassing rides featured on the "Matter of Trust Extras" tape is really tasteless.

TBROCKS
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:11 PM
I have no dog in this fight. I don't know the Parelli's from Adam's house cat. I've never been to a Parelli demonstration or clinic, I've never watched a Parelli video, and I'm not sure I would even recognize one of them if I ran into them on the street (doesn't Pat have a big mustache?).

But it seems that this is tit for tat. They say "terrible things about dressage", dressage people say terrible things about their methods. What is the difference? (And I ask that in all innocense as a dressage devotee.)

As far as marketing goes - they aren't the only ones in the horse world to make a good living by being slick marketeers. There is at least one major WB registry operating here that has made a TON of money over the years for its silver-tongued owner, as well as plenty of other folks who have done OK by being good at the marketing game.


The people being most vocal in their criticism here, myself included, have had PLENTY of exposure to Parelli. I would suggest tuning into RFDTV or getting your hands on his DVD's...or even visit his website. There you'll find pictures of foals being jumped (yes, JUMPED) and all manner of ridiculous antics, done in the name of selling his "system" and cleverly disguised as being of benefit to horses. Yes, others are making a buck off training methods also. But the Parellis are in an unholy league of their own.

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:21 PM
There is nothing "natural" in what PP's show has morphed into.

And I hope he meant "bad dressage riders". For him to make a blanket statement like that after the gracious reactions He and She (expecially She) received from WAZ during their embarrassing rides featured on the "Matter of Trust Extras" tape is really tasteless.

Its not tape???
Ohhhhh, I must get it for my collection!

A girlfriend of mine gave me a Parelli shirt as a gag gift with a big circle and line through the logo. :lol:

EVeryone knows Im very antiPP!

arena run
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:26 PM
The people being most vocal in their criticism here, myself included, have had PLENTY of exposure to Parelli. I would suggest tuning into RFDTV or getting your hands on his DVD's...or even visit his website. There you'll find pictures of foals being jumped (yes, JUMPED) and all manner of ridiculous antics, done in the name of selling his "system" and cleverly disguised as being of benefit to horses. Yes, others are making a buck off training methods also. But the Parellis are in an unholy league of their own.

Parelli is the only person in the world to ever have jumped too young a horse? Wow. The things one learns on this BB. Hey... I would suppose then that young foals and horses who jump things of their own free will... umm, they should be taken out of the pasture and put in a stall to protect themselves? That would only make sense, right?

:)


*shaking head*
You know, I will agree w/anyone that Pat Parelli gets my goat. His attitude of being THHEEEEEE only one who knows anything is just, well, I suppose just that - his attitude. :) If we all were lambasted for our attitudes..... well. :D

Going back through and reading this thread... bile, pure unadulterated bile is what some of these posts are. Any Parelli follower who actually might could have learned something positive about dressage by reading this thread will only feel vindicated in their Parellie views. sylvia

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:30 PM
THIS makes me ill!
Based on where this foals front feet landed and his back leg position, you know he scaped himself on the fence.
#$%#%#$ dipwad!

And edited to say, that poor foal is maybe a month old! I guess its NATRUAL training to take it away from its mother so soon, ey?

Natural my ass!!!!! * rolling eyes*

myhorsefaith
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:36 PM
I am not going to defend the Parelli's, but I wanted to add an interpretation of this tight rein=no brain comment. I've heard him say this but not in the context of talking about dressage.

I used to do a lot of Parelli. I So i thought i'd share the context in which i've heard this comment in the past...

Basically, the philosophy in PNH is that horses are by nature claustrophobic creatures, and that the tighter you make the rein, the more claustrophobic they become. Novices who own spooky horses they have no business owning may ride with a tight rein to control their horse. the spookier the horse gets, the tighter they pull the reins. and so the vicious cycle continues.

Its about ignorant riders doing the wrong thing with the reins.

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:39 PM
THIS makes me ill!
Based on where this foals front feet landed and his back leg position, you know he scaped himself on the fence.
#$%#%#$ dipwad!

And edited to say, that poor foal is maybe a month old! I guess its NATRUAL training to take it away from its mother so soon, ey?

Natural my ass!!!!! * rolling eyes*

What would be the point of this anyway? I mean why? Because you can>>?

Tamara in TN
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:39 PM
I think he (or more likely she--PP was far less noxious in the pre-Linda days) must have been severely frightened by someone in a shadbelly and top hat as a young child.

ya never know what will pop out of a magician's hat...:winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

dalpal
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:43 PM
The people being most vocal in their criticism here, myself included, have had PLENTY of exposure to Parelli. I would suggest tuning into RFDTV or getting your hands on his DVD's...or even visit his website. There you'll find pictures of foals being jumped (yes, JUMPED) and all manner of ridiculous antics, done in the name of selling his "system" and cleverly disguised as being of benefit to horses. Yes, others are making a buck off training methods also. But the Parellis are in an unholy league of their own.

LOL!! Yup...I even own a carrot stick....bought it during my cult boarding years. :eek::eek::lol::lol:

Comes in handy when I'm chasing the evil kitty around the house after she beats the other kitty up. :yes::lol:

Lancaster9
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:43 PM
Did ANYONE read my post? Sheesh I know I'm invisible but I was really hoping you lot could make the distinction between Parelli's audience and serious 'equestrians'. Not that it's an excuse for his comments - not at all - but I was really hoping that in addition to all this vitriol we could acknowledge that he was targeting a group of people who, quite frankly, probably shouldn't ever be allowed to shorten their reins.

I just don't think we should bash back at someone simply because they don't like our sport and are saying bad things about it.... surely it's better to discredit them based on their own (lack of) merits. I know PP makes it difficult to treat him with respect, but for the sake of the image of dressage we need to be the ones to take the high road. This means education, not condemnation.

(Having said that, I just finished watching a PP segment on telly and I walked away shaking my head and muttering to myself.)

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:43 PM
Well his handlebar mustache musta got in his ears when WAZ was explaining that rein contact is the following of the horse movements. That haromony is dressage is not blocking the reins, body, legs, seat, etc, etc. Its being one with the horse. You cant be stupid with the reins, even on a short rein if your following.
And he should have not used this in dressage context when he himself knows very little about the true sport and its theory, that showing alone how stupid the pair really are to the knowing world.

Donella
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:45 PM
I have never been able to figure out WHAT the appeal is. The guy and his wife ride like my non horsey bf would if I put him on a horse for the first time and took away his stirrups..the wife in particular. Why would anyone want advice from a "horseman" who cannot for the life of him/her sit effectively on a horse?

Secondly..WHO are the people who are buying this SHI*???!! I have a feeling it is real newbies who are astounded by what really is in most cases, laughable and not at all praiseworthy.

The last clip I saw of him..the wife was instructing some woman to "sit on her thumb and flap her arms" while pat was jumping on foot over a log while his horse followed way to close behind (uhhhh wow you must really want a 1300lb animal landing on you when you trip over that log).

Good lord..if you need parelli to work with horses you shouldnt be working with horses!

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:48 PM
LOL!! Yup...I even own a carrot stick....bought it during my cult boarding years. :eek::eek::lol::lol:

Comes in handy when I'm chasing the evil kitty around the house after she beats the other kitty up. :yes::lol:


I have watched bits and peices of it, only to have to laugh and turn it off. I was watching something years ago where she was talking about peddling and letting the horse goes where it wants to go, etc.
Id like her to try that on some of the hot OTTBs Ive taken off the track in the past to retrain! LMAO
Now THAT would be worth my money to go see!!!

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:51 PM
Secondly..WHO are the people who are buying this SHI*???!! I have a feeling it is real newbies who are astounded by what really is in most cases, laughable and not at all praiseworthy.


They THIRVE on the uneducated and non show people. Its part of their financial plan.


The last clip I saw of him..the wife was instructing some woman to "sit on her thumb and flap her arms" while pat was jumping on foot over a log while his horse followed way to close behind (uhhhh wow you must really want a 1300lb animal landing on you when you trip over that log).


The horseworld could only be so lucky! :lol:


Good lord..if you need parelli to work with horses you shouldnt be working with horses!

AMEN SISTA!!!

Donella
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:52 PM
A girlfriend of mine gave me a Parelli shirt as a gag gift with a big circle and line through the logo.

SWEET..where did she get it..do you know??? I would love one..seriously!


Oh yes, and this whole thing just reminded me of a few months ago when I was at a local breed demo sort of show. We were asked to bring a horse and ride it around a bit yada yada. Well some lady came over to talk about the breed with us, and as soon as I come over on my mare, she says "ohh we are doing the parelli demo later". Then continues on about how pat doesnt like dressage saddles because "they ride on the horses shoulders and they prevent freedom of movement". OMG...what do you even say to people like that?

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:55 PM
Oh come one, shoulder freedom has nothing to do with dressage!!!! EVERYONE knows that!!! :lol: :lol:
I dont know, I have to ask her where she got it. I will ask her.

kansasgal
Aug. 14, 2007, 04:59 PM
Yes, I almost wonder if making that comment from the get go is designed to get rid of anyone with any actual riding/ dressage experience?


There are a few people at the place where I board my horse who use Parrelli techniques, but they are always so busy playing "games" with their horses that I've never actually seen them ride, and know for a fact that none of these people have had any formal lessons.
They would take PP's word for something before using common sense..... and it's useless to try to reason with them. I tried that once......

Best wishes from Kansas

mbarrett
Aug. 14, 2007, 05:21 PM
Obviously, the Parelli's have no respect for the sport of dressage (or eventing or jumpers) and masters of dressage (or any other type of riding besides their's). They love to be negative and bash others who are more successful than them.

I would love to see the late, great Reiner Klimke or Alois Podhajsky give Pat and Linda a lesson in riding. I'm sure the Parelli's would tell Reiner and Alois that they need to "play some games" with their horses. Hah. I'm sure the German and Austrian gentlemen are too classy to tell Pat and Linda to "Stick where the sun don't shine!"

Pat and Linda just don't get it, will never get it, and don't want to get it. All they want to do is pad their bank account any way they can. They know the type of people to market to. They really don't care if their comments are caustic or not. They probably love the fact we are reacting so negatively in our BB.

Just remember, how many Olympic, World Champion and World Cup medalists have they trained? Nada. They haven't trained any horse to any type of legitimate championship in any breed or discipline in the US or abroad, that I know of.

I realize that Olympic medals doesn't always mean good training, but it is the system of training that counts. They don't have a system, they have gimmicks.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

Donella
Aug. 14, 2007, 05:46 PM
LOL too funny. I also heard a while back that the wife bought some really nice wb..I think it was a Hotline or Hofrat colt?? Uhm...so what is she planning on doing with it??
Maybe I am mistaken, but I am pretty sure this is what I heard.

jazzrider
Aug. 14, 2007, 05:48 PM
Parents and I were watching a Parelli special. He was talking about pressure or something, I wasn't really paying attention for obvious reasons. Until he blabs: [Sorry, I just snorked.]

You see those dressage riders going around? tight rein = no brain.

He said that out loud in a clinic that was aired on TV. What a loser.
Kind of like when we were in highschool and some girls would say mean things about others just to make themselves feel better. So sad...

:lol::lol::lol: I read this thread backwards. I have no allegiance to PP or DQ ire -- just enjoyed the read. But the fact that this thread started with a post including the boldened statement above is just too funny. :lol:;)

Equestrian Diva
Aug. 14, 2007, 05:56 PM
This has been an awesome thread. Alot of super funny comments! You guys are cracking me up!!! :lol: I spit my drink out 3 times! ( soda is not good for a key board )

I just moved from Florida- wich is probably the Parelli Capitol of the WORLD! I am glad to see I am not the only one who feels they are a cult ! I have always thought PP was a like a circus ring master.

I was part of a small horse club down in FL for a short while. I quit when the club started going Parelli crazy. I was there to ride and meet people , not play silly games with knot halters and carrot sticks.

I did give it a try before I quit the club. I will always try something before I make a judgement on it. I went to a 2 day NH Clinic. Its was NUTS! I wont get into details other then it was definately not for me and my horse. She came home acting like a fruit loop from all tha carrot stick whackings the instructor gave her. NEVER again! I felt like I was on another planet. I know where all the missing village idiots go!

"Carrot sticks are fer eatin not fer beatin" Thats my motto. :yes:

I love dressage and its a shame PP downs it so much. I truly beieve it can help alot of people who have riding or horse issues.

It is a beautiful sport and I believe the basis of true riding. It has done wonders for my appaloosa mare who has anxiety issues. It has taught me to be a more sensitive yet stronger rider. It has helped me get my mare soft , supple and relaxed as well as myself . It made a real connection for me and my mare . I love dressage. To me, dressage is "natural."

Thanks again for making me laugh everyone!

Lancaster9
Aug. 14, 2007, 05:57 PM
:lol::lol::lol: I read this thread backwards. I have no allegiance to PP or DQ ire -- just enjoyed the read. But the fact that this thread started with a post including the boldened statement above is just too funny. :lol:;)

Yes, it's now official, no one reads my posts... but then again, those kind of girls never paid any attention to me in high school either. :lol::no:

PiaffePlease
Aug. 14, 2007, 05:58 PM
he is obviously uneducated about dressage. That comment he made just shows his ignorance

Reiter
Aug. 14, 2007, 05:59 PM
Here is my experience for what it's worth:
I don't get rfd TV unfortunately (would love to watch the dressage stuff), have never seen the Parelli's or knew much about them. Just that they do some kind of NH stuff.
Well, a couple of months ago I went to the Sacramento Horse Expo with my NH friend.
I went to watch the dressage demonstration while she did something else (dressage being too boring for her). Well, Parelli was on next and we decided to meet back up right there. The times were wrong and she came back while the dressage demo was still on (they had a horse doing GP level movements). The first thing my friend said when she sat down (after complaining that the dressage was still on) was how unnatural that poor horse looked!
When the dressage demo was over the more than half empty bleachers filled up to the breaking point, ear splitting music came on and 10 different horse/handler combinations were in the arena at the same time doing all kinds of circus tricks. I told my friend I will give it a couple more minutes, but if this is what it is like I'd rather go shoot myself. Needless to say it didn't get any better even though the music was turned down a bit when Pat came out and started talking. That was my first and hopefully last exposure to the Parellis.
Oh and by the way, my friend tried to get me to stay by saying Linda does Dressage and is really good, but I've had enough and didn't stick around to see for myself! Maybe I should have! ;)

~Freedom~
Aug. 14, 2007, 06:16 PM
I'm not sure I would even recognize one of them if I ran into them on the street (doesn't Pat have a big mustache?).



P Parelli jumping a 2 month old foal.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_uT-i4wrm9Ec/RrNvMHwUt1I/AAAAAAAAAUo/VxrTLIrbwqw/s320/parellifoaljump.jpg

Kenike
Aug. 14, 2007, 06:16 PM
You know what? I remember hearing about the Hotline foal, too (I swear it was a Hotline, anyway). I shuddered then, and I shudder now.

STF, yes, the picture you posted of the foal jumping made me ill. I realize a lot of the auctions in Europe have foals jumping for the purpose of sale, but not on a regular basis, and certainly not THAT young! (we're talking about weanlings, at the very youngest, jumping a total of 2-3 times and only at the auction. How many times has the infant foal he's using there been over-jumped and probably scraped himself??)

Yes, yes, the demographic for the Parelli's is the backyard, newbie to horses, doesn't know a scrap of horsemanship crowd, but it's all the more important for that particular group to learn from people who have a clue and won't end up getting that particular crowd killed! Not to mention the amount of horses, even the backyard-bred-crap horses, who are being totally ruined by the crazy-scary tactics these fools use....

Okay, time for me to get off this thing for the day....I'm sure I'll enjoy what's posted later when I read tomorrow.

Lancaster....btw, I read you. :)

TBROCKS
Aug. 14, 2007, 06:21 PM
THIS makes me ill!
Based on where this foals front feet landed and his back leg position, you know he scaped himself on the fence.
#$%#%#$ dipwad!

And edited to say, that poor foal is maybe a month old! I guess its NATRUAL training to take it away from its mother so soon, ey?

Natural my ass!!!!! * rolling eyes*

Thanks STF. That was the very picture I was referring to. I personally don't know anyone jumping foals. I'm sure there are asshats out there doing it though...look, there's one now!

DownYonder
Aug. 14, 2007, 06:33 PM
You know what? I remember hearing about the Hotline foal, too (I swear it was a Hotline, anyway). I shuddered then, and I shudder now.

If breeding and selling horses is a big part of how you earn your living, and Pat Parelli wants to buy your fancy WB foal at - ahem - a VERY good price, do you think you would turn him down?

STF
Aug. 14, 2007, 06:41 PM
Hey, I know two WB breeders who DID ignore their request on info on their offspring! They said, no way in hell!
If it were one of our horses, Id feel like I let my horse down letting them go to someone like that. I breed horses for the sport of dressage and jumping, not to be a circus act.
I know one deal they tried to do on one of our breeders that went REALLY sour and really unprofessional. But, I was not suprised.

Donella
Aug. 14, 2007, 06:50 PM
LOL I also shudder because I keep thinking of Linda trying to sit that Hotline trot.

DownYonder
Aug. 14, 2007, 06:53 PM
I don't know, if I had to sell foals to keep the bills paid, and someone is standing there with check in hand and they aren't going to quibble about my price, I think I would take the deal, unless I knew the horse was going to a really bad home. At least the Parellis can well afford to take good care of their horses, and even though some folks disagree with their training methods, is there any evidence that they really mistreat or abuse their horses?

Equibrit
Aug. 14, 2007, 06:55 PM
http://www.cafepress.com/buy/parelli/-/pv_design_details/pg_1/id_20469899/opt_/fpt_/c_360/

MarJ
Aug. 14, 2007, 07:01 PM
Pat
Parelli's
Piss
Poor
Performing
Ponies

What are they trying to do bore the horses to death???:rolleyes:

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 14, 2007, 07:03 PM
Oh my gosh that is so funny bwaaaaaha

citydog
Aug. 14, 2007, 07:12 PM
Basically, the philosophy in PNH is that horses are by nature claustrophobic creatures, and that the tighter you make the rein, the more claustrophobic they become. Novices who own spooky horses they have no business owning may ride with a tight rein to control their horse. the spookier the horse gets, the tighter they pull the reins. and so the vicious cycle continues.

Its about ignorant riders doing the wrong thing with the reins.

Then they should bloody well *say* that. But they know it would drive away customers/cultists in droves, because, really, how many would admit to being ignorant riders?

[Lancaster9 I read you. :)]

beeblebrox
Aug. 14, 2007, 07:21 PM
The rope swings both ways...

I have been in clinics with some big names (dressage, H/J and dressage) and cringed when the slammed other types of riding from hunters, jumpers, western, etc
To be fair they BNT also compliment others disciplines too but I paid $200 for a dressage session with a German BNT who kept slamming other disciplines so ya know it's all the same out there!

It is not right but he is not the only jack ass out there. What I will say though some of those smart ass little catch phrases like that have filled his piggy bank and I am sure at some point he will be one of the wealthiest horse trainer/ instructors out there and maybe not for talent but sheer ability to market himself and the message.

Thomas_1
Aug. 14, 2007, 07:23 PM
Heck I've said that and I like dressage and can't stand Parelli!

Don't tell me you're in denial about such stuff with a prevelence of bad dressage riders?!

DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
Aug. 14, 2007, 07:25 PM
There's tight as in not giving with the reins. That is poor riding, dressage, or no...excuse my confounded ignorance, but as I try and understand it, contact implies a feel of the mouth. Not pulling, not hanging, not tight. Not slack either. Like a little dance between your fingers and his mouth. And not inhibiting, because otherwise that connection from his hind end stops right there, and you can't ride back to front.

I am not saying, of course, that I achieve this all the time. But that is the goal.

Heck, what would I know? I think carrot sticks are those crispy orange things my horse likes as a good night treat before his peeps.

jazzrider
Aug. 14, 2007, 08:20 PM
Yes, it's now official, no one reads my posts... but then again, those kind of girls never paid any attention to me in high school either. :lol::no:

Sorry Lancaster9. :no: But if you're going to take the high road, be fair and rational, appreciate the differences in people, and not assert your opinions in an overbearing way, then you will, for the most part, be invisible on COTH. Welcome to the club. :winkgrin:

Rachel L
Aug. 14, 2007, 08:25 PM
Lancaster9, we need to start an "I made an awesome comment on a parelli train-wreck thread and everyone ignored it" clique.

To wit:
Someone posted that they heard the parellis require all their employees to adopt the "parelli lifestyle" to the extent that they make surprise inspections of employees' homes, or something like that. Is it true, the poster asks? I replied with the entirely made-up and (I thought) hilarious story of a-friend-of-this-woman-I-once-knew who lost her job with the parellis because her wagon wheel coffee table was out of spec. No one replied!

gr8fulrider
Aug. 14, 2007, 09:35 PM
Lancaster9, we need to start an "I made an awesome comment on a parelli train-wreck thread and everyone ignored it" clique.

To wit:
Someone posted that they heard the parellis require all their employees to adopt the "parelli lifestyle" to the extent that they make surprise inspections of employees' homes, or something like that. Is it true, the poster asks? I replied with the entirely made-up and (I thought) hilarious story of a-friend-of-this-woman-I-once-knew who lost her job with the parellis because her wagon wheel coffee table was out of spec. No one replied!

Rachel L: I hereby award the Coveted Westlaw Never-to-late-to-ROFLMAO Perpetual Trophy to the wagon wheel coffee table joke. Congratulations and keep 'em coming.

slc2
Aug. 14, 2007, 10:40 PM
For those of you who have missed it, Parelli's appeal to people who are unhappy with what they're doing with their riding, people who look at other people riding and criticize it...they don't want people who are happy with what they're doing or what other people around them are doing, who are competent at what they're doing, and who have mastered what they're doing...someone like that would NEVER be motivated to follow their system in a ah....profitable way.

This is one of the most basic tenets of political control, of cults, even of spouse and child abusers.

people who are happy and succesful with their riding, who don't feel any need to go do something different, who are not judgemental of what others are doing...someone like that would not be a useful member of the cult.

and make no mistake. it's a cult. it does, in fact, fulfill every single point of how cults control people.

TheOtherHorse
Aug. 14, 2007, 10:49 PM
A girlfriend of mine gave me a Parelli shirt as a gag gift with a big circle and line through the logo.

SWEET..where did she get it..do you know??? I would love one..seriously!




http://www.cafepress.com/antiparelli

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

EssentialEQST
Aug. 14, 2007, 11:11 PM
I wonder how they explained away this comment to Herr Zettl?

Funny how they have a dressage master to visit and work with them, but still spout this crap.

Cinder


:o I was wondering the same thing!!! :eek:

Reiterin
Aug. 14, 2007, 11:28 PM
I hate the Parelli's.
That is why I was so pissed off when these crack pots bought Judy Yancey's Hotline colt. A very well bred horse that will be RUINED to go the the circus games of Parelli hands. Its not hard to tell they bought this horse only to try to "prove a point" or some other insane crap they normally spout and I will cringe to see this super colt being chased around with a carrot stick at a yearling.
A waste, a total waste of superb horseflesh in the hands of the worlds biggest con artisits of the equine nation.
*sorry JY if this upsets you, but I have had my own dealings with these jerks*
I have just been around and personally listened to those jackasses say horrible (and VERY incorrect) things about our sport of dressage and put down principals of correct training that those clowns have NO idea about, no less have any idea of what they are talking about.
I feel for all of you who have been taken by the Parelli cult.

Any Parelli-ites what to share whatever happened to Protege the very nice little Pablito yearling she bought back in '01/02? Or can she even ride her horse Allure, the quite nice Trakehner gelding she got in France?

They do say horrible things about dressage... call dressage riders "dressage nazis" .... among other things.

krfarms
Aug. 14, 2007, 11:41 PM
Remember when the O'Connors "joined up" with him!! What a joke. I went to a demonstration in Denver with him and the O'connors (free tickets). The O'connors were very professional and at the same time seemed extremely embarased by the "antics" of Pat. At one point he was jumping a mare on a lunge line over stuff--well he proceede to show us HOW IT IS DONE and overfaced the mare and she stopped at a picnic table. Then the whip came out. It was horrifying to watch. I think right after that the O'connors wisely parted company with the Parelli group.

Carol Ames
Aug. 14, 2007, 11:49 PM
:winkgrin:Has anyone else read the book "In service the Horse"? The Parellis are talked about in several sections,:yes: the one about Karen and David, and the O'Connor event team,, as well as a TB breeding farm which stands several very high priced stallions; in both instances the grooms are NOT impressed :no:but, in fact feel insulted that they are required to attend the :o:mad:seminar; It is also mentioned several times what a good marketing machine Parelli has :mad:
read this book!

LexInVA
Aug. 15, 2007, 12:02 AM
Just remember, how many Olympic, World Champion and World Cup medalists have they trained? Nada. They haven't trained any horse to any type of legitimate championship in any breed or discipline in the US or abroad, that I know of.

I realize that Olympic medals doesn't always mean good training, but it is the system of training that counts. They don't have a system, they have gimmicks.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

The O'Connor's use Parelli techniques (they still use them in their clinics at the very least) and have collaborated with him on training in the past but I think they have loose ties with him and his wife at the moment. Shocking I know but it's true! :eek:

Lori
Aug. 15, 2007, 12:23 AM
Old timers that ride field hunters and do hunter trials, etc. in addition to show ring hunters, The younger trainers, particularly those that do jumpers, seem to understand and accept dressage principles. Some of them even cross train with dressage instructors. :winkgrin:

I am reading this thread saying WTF???
I am a lifelong hunter rider, but mostly in reality I road and ditch ride more than anything now--and lots of bareback, too. I ride by the old principles taught in the classic hunter books. Dressage is a base, a foundation.
I do not know Parelli other than his ads. I could not even watch an entire show on RFD, I had a hard time getting past them watching themselves on the video (WHAT was THAT all about??). Nothing they did impressed me. I changed the channel.

I do not "throw my reins away" on the road/trails. I ride with light contact. My ponies will all go on the bit (probably not to the standards a dressage rider would like) when asked. I want my trail riding ponies to be light in the hand and listening to my aids during my rides. I want them to move off my leg to get over the second I give the aid, say, when a large truck comes barreling down the road and I need to move over. I start with these basics in the ring, of course, but all of this training carries over to my outings.

Geesh, have I been doing it ALL wrong?? Maybe I need to carry a carrot stick on the trail instead.......

Kenike
Aug. 15, 2007, 12:34 AM
If breeding and selling horses is a big part of how you earn your living, and Pat Parelli wants to buy your fancy WB foal at - ahem - a VERY good price, do you think you would turn him down?

Yes, I would turn him down. Good money, or not, I'm not one who will let my animals go to a place where I wholeheartedly disagree with the practices. Sorry, I've seen too many horses absolutely ruined because PP NH stuff.

As for the O'Connors? They split with them a while ago....though I never really understood why they joined the PP thing to begin with :confused:

kristinq
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:27 AM
P Parelli jumping a 2 month old foal.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_uT-i4wrm9Ec/RrNvMHwUt1I/AAAAAAAAAUo/VxrTLIrbwqw/s320/parellifoaljump.jpg

This guy needs to be shot. Have him jump over a bunch of tree trunks at nearly chest level and let him hit his legs on it. Not that he needs to stand, since apparently you can lunge a horse while sitting on your fat ass.

Mardi
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:58 AM
Which one of these riding disciplines is an Olympic sport ?

A. Parelli Natural Horsemanship

B. Dressage

Lancaster9
Aug. 15, 2007, 04:55 AM
Lancaster9, we need to start an "I made an awesome comment on a parelli train-wreck thread and everyone ignored it" clique. :lol:

Yep, it's the 'I stand in front of speeding trains' clique! I'm glad I'm not alone!

partlycloudy
Aug. 15, 2007, 06:36 AM
The thing that bugs me the most,is 'the hide your hinney' ( that's what these freaks call it) thing,where they teach the horse to always face you. Well what a pita when you'r trying to,lets say,adjust the sidereins,tighten the girth.... hell anything where you need to go to the horse's side...particularly MOUNTING...oh yeah, I forgot, their followers never actually ride their horses.:no:
For the love of God,folks,forget the stupid '7 games' and get a real trainer!

Red Barn
Aug. 15, 2007, 08:34 AM
he is obviously uneducated about dressage. That comment he made just shows his ignorance

I used to think this, too, but have now decided otherwise.

P and L are nothing if not SAVVY capitalists!

I'm pretty sure the Ps have been bashing dressage more and more publicly of late simply because they're more tuned in to the insecurities of their chosen demographic. They now know exactly which buttons to push. Attacks on the sport new horse people are bound to see as the most intimidatingly "elitist" fit right in with their "Aw, shucks" phoney populism.

This is not unlike George Bush - raised in Conn. and educated at Yale - pretending to be a rube from Crawford, Texas.

I think Pat and Linda slam dressage and clown for the masses for exactly the same reasons Bush pretends he loves NASCAR and clearing brush: IT PAYS.

jeano
Aug. 15, 2007, 09:22 AM
I used to think this, too, but have now decided otherwise.

P and L are nothing if not SAVVY capitalists!

I'm pretty sure the Ps have been bashing dressage more and more publicly of late simply because they're more tuned in to the insecurities of their chosen demographic. They now know exactly which buttons to push. Attacks on the sport new horse people are bound to see as the most intimidatingly "elitist" fit right in with their "Aw, shucks" phoney populism.

This is not unlike George Bush - raised in Conn. and educated at Yale - pretending to be a rube from Crawford, Texas.

I think Pat and Linda slam dressage and clown for the masses for exactly the same reasons Bush pretends he loves NASCAR and clearing brush: IT PAYS.

Red Barn, I declared my loff for you on the last Parelli trainride we took together. Now I am willing to be your slave forever.

It is like the Bushes, that's a personality cult draining the lifeblood from the cult members if ever there was one.

STF
Aug. 15, 2007, 09:33 AM
Any Parelli-ites what to share whatever happened to Protege the very nice little Pablito yearling she bought back in '01/02? Or can she even ride her horse Allure, the quite nice Trakehner gelding she got in France?

They do say horrible things about dressage... call dressage riders "dressage nazis" .... among other things.


I have been told some stories on this, but since its 3rd hand, I wont share. But it made me sick to think of good horseflesh ruined like that. Its almost like the horses are test animals at a lab, which IMO is abuse in a lot of ways.
Yall need to remember that the stuff yall see on TV is very controlled. There are things that go on behind the scene with these "trainers" that are rumored less than pretty.
Im sure the two nice WB's they have ruined (and the others that will follow) is because the horses are stupid or whatever it would be to be the horses fault.

Red Barn
Aug. 15, 2007, 09:41 AM
(No, no Jeano - I love YOU more!)

And what about Karl Rove quitting on George, eh? I think maybe he just got a better offer from the Parelli Campaign.

mbarrett
Aug. 15, 2007, 09:53 AM
LexInVa, you're right, the O'Connor's do some Parelli techiques. It's in the O'Connor's videos. But I highly doubt that David won the gold medal in eventing because his horse knows some rope tricks.

He won the gold medal because he worked his butt off, went to England to train, worked with a lot of great trainers, had super horses and owners and just never gave up. That's why David won the gold.

My point was that Pat or Linda haven't trained or ridden any horses to the Olympics, World Championships or even the AQHA World show!

By the way, I believe there are many roads to Rome. A person can use a variety of good training techniques, from various disciplines or sports to train a horse. But gimmicks will never last when training horses.

STF
Aug. 15, 2007, 09:55 AM
(No, no Jeano - I love YOU more!)

And what about Karl Rove quitting on George, eh? I think maybe he just got a better offer from the Parelli Campaign.

LMAO:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

DownYonder
Aug. 15, 2007, 10:30 AM
Im sure the two nice WB's they have ruined (and the others that will follow) is because the horses are stupid or whatever it would be to be the horses fault.

And no one else in this world has ever ruined a nice warmblood?

DownYonder
Aug. 15, 2007, 10:31 AM
And, jeez - can we leave the George Bush slams out of this discussion? No matter how anyone feels about Bush, it has no bearing on the topic at hand.

purplnurpl
Aug. 15, 2007, 10:43 AM
]I have no dog in this fight. I don't know the Parelli's from Adam's house cat. I've never been to a Parelli demonstration or clinic, I've never watched a Parelli video, and I'm not sure I would even recognize one of them if I ran into them on the street (doesn't Pat have a big mustache?).

But it seems that this is tit for tat. They say "terrible things about dressage", dressage people say terrible things about their methods. What is the difference? (And I ask that in all innocense as a dressage devotee.)



The difference is that the Ps are uneducated in other practices. They have no idea what they are talking about.

PP would be easy to recognize. He's the one carrying the whip thingy.
Apparently now, due to this thread, I know that they are called carrot sticks.
That’s flippin hilarious.

I am so buying one of those carrot stick tee shirts.

And you guys are right. I don't think I have ever seen a Parelli follower actually RIDING!
lol.

and I tell you, I am glad to hear that the OC's have parted ways with the Ps. I lost a little bit of respect for Karen and David when they teamed up with those Yahoos. It was mostly a marketing gig I think. Kind of thought the OCs were sell outs at that point. Glad they re-thought their actions.

Lancaster9
Aug. 15, 2007, 10:55 AM
(No, no Jeano - I love YOU more!)

And what about Karl Rove quitting on George, eh? I think maybe he just got a better offer from the Parelli Campaign.

Now now, this isn't fair.... here I've been spouting off about the need for diplomacy and high-roads and all that, and now you go and make a carrot stick out of Karl Rove for me!! How am I supposed to keep on resisting? :winkgrin::winkgrin::winkgrin:

Cathbad
Aug. 15, 2007, 11:18 AM
That picture of that tiny little foal jumping that jump just broke my heart. WHY? does such a little thing have to do tricks for humans? :cry: That can't even be called bad horsemanship -- it's not even horsemanship...it's exploitation.

A client told me that her horse charged at her when doing some simple lunging and asked me what I would have done. I said, "If my wits had still been within reach, I would have starting slashing with that lunge whip until I had that horse AWAY from me and wishing he'd been better behaved (but not to worry, everyone, just enough whip activity for safety, not abuse)." The client retorted that "Parelli wouldn't have used that approach." My internal thought was, "Thank gosh, because I don't want to be thinking along too many of his lines." And my approach was based on a Ray Hunt suggestion he'd made to a student who had had her horse do something equally agressive toward her: "Stripe him! Stripe him!" I took that to mean, defend yourself with your whip/stick, or whatever.

And supposedly the PPs are in the communication and teaching business. To be so careless with that statement -- "those dressage people" -- which can leave listeners confused about its intent, well, it shows taht they really don't have a message that they want to get across. They'll just say anything to keep up the intrigue.

Equibrit
Aug. 15, 2007, 12:38 PM
THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING!

You all are talking about them aren't you? (collective you) and lending them some credibility.
Shut the h-ll up and they cease to exist in the legitimate horse world.
Let them wallow in devotees - after all they deserve each other.
With any luck said devotees will stay away from the rest of us! (unclean, shun)

piccolittle
Aug. 15, 2007, 12:47 PM
Which one of these riding disciplines is an Olympic sport ?

A. Parelli Natural Horsemanship

B. Dressage

brilliant :D

arena run
Aug. 15, 2007, 12:48 PM
The thing that bugs me the most,is 'the hide your hinney' ( that's what these freaks call it) thing,where they teach the horse to always face you. Well what a pita when you'r trying to,lets say,adjust the sidereins,tighten the girth.... hell anything where you need to go to the horse's side...particularly MOUNTING...oh yeah, I forgot, their followers never actually ride their horses.:no:
For the love of God,folks,forget the stupid '7 games' and get a real trainer!


Omygoodness. :) It is not 'always' to face you, hello. ;) Who in their right mind would want a horse to ALWAYS face them? No one. I mean, do you really, truly think this is what they would want??? Really?

It boggles the mind, it does.

Hind the hinney and other such training 'games' or practices (whether Parelli or not) are about getting the horse to face you when you cue "face me" and about getting the horse to stand still when you cue "stand still".

Please, don't we ever get tired of this? Moving on now. sylvia

arena run
Aug. 15, 2007, 12:55 PM
LexInVa, you're right, the O'Connor's do some Parelli techiques. It's in the O'Connor's videos. But I highly doubt that David won the gold medal in eventing because his horse knows some rope tricks.

He won the gold medal because he worked his butt off, went to England to train, worked with a lot of great trainers, had super horses and owners and just never gave up. That's why David won the gold.

My point was that Pat or Linda haven't trained or ridden any horses to the Olympics, World Championships or even the AQHA World show!

By the way, I believe there are many roads to Rome. A person can use a variety of good training techniques, from various disciplines or sports to train a horse. But gimmicks will never last when training horses.


And Linda and Pat don't work their butts off putting their 'circuses' on for the masses? LOL :) Don't you think that Pat feels that any attention to his methods are good attention if it gets the people to talk about him and gets others to do a google search and read for themselves? He does, if nothing else, know how to sell himself.

Since when is riding a horse to the Olympics or World championships or AQHA World show the end-all, be-all hallmark of a trainer?

True, gimmicks won't last, but hard as it is to believe Pat pretty much trains the horse in a way the horse understands. THAT will last. Him selling his stuff or dissing dressage or other desciplines or lunging from his neck... you know, whatever. *rolls eyes* He'll pay for those things on other levels. BUT... is there ANY arguement that he can and does get his horses trained? Maybe not to ride the way folks on here undertstand riding but can you really argue w/the fact that his horses DO get trained.....

He DOES know how to talk 'horse'. He just needs to work on his 'human'. :D sylvia

lstevenson
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:03 PM
:uhoh: Uh oh, you guys upset one of their groupies.:lol:

arena run
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:04 PM
[QUOTE=Cathbad;2626741]... The client retorted that "Parelli wouldn't have used that approach." ...

...And supposedly the PPs are in the communication and teaching business. To be so careless with that statement -- "those dressage people" -- which can leave listeners confused about its intent, well, it shows taht they really don't have a message that they want to get across. They'll just say anything to keep up the intrigue.QUOTE]


This client spoke personally w/Pat and he told her this? Or is this strictly 'her take' on what she thinks he would say/do?

If it's the latter, then you should take her comments w/a grain of salt, no? If it's the former then did you ask what actually he would do? It might not be as bad as you're thinking.

So far he's not beem mauled or mangled (that I've heard of) so he must be doing SOMEthing to ward off the aggressive attacks... assuming that he has been aggressively attacked when you consider the supposed personalities of some of the horses he's trained.

Not sure they do it strictly to continue the intrique... but a comment like that about dressage is certainly uncalled for and stupid to have been made by someone as marketing savvy as he seems to be. He might, in the end, pay for this one sooner than he thought. Of course, he's the only public figure to have ever said anything untoward. *sarcastic statement* :) sylvia

lstevenson
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:11 PM
is there ANY arguement that he can and does get his horses trained? Maybe not to ride the way folks on here undertstand riding but can you really argue w/the fact that his horses DO get trained.....


Trained to what?? Stand on a log, like an elephant on a drum? (I would love to know the point of that one)

Certainly not trained for anything usefull. The horses doing all of that nonsense look very unhappy, most of the things they are doing are ridiculous and unneccessarily hard on the horses, and I have NO respect for his ability to train horses.

STF
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:14 PM
Ok, I'll admit it. LP is really my hero and Im just jealous I cant be like her.

STF
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:15 PM
Trained to what?? Stand on a log, like an elephant on a drum? (I would love to know the point of that one)

Certainly not trained for anything usefull. The horses doing all of that nonsense look very unhappy, most of the things they are doing are ridiculous and unneccessarily hard on the horses, and I have NO respect for his ability to train horses.


Ask them and they can train a horse to do anything to the highest level. In a local mag here, he was talking about how he teaches horses to piaffe. I had such a good time reading it. :lol:

arena run
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:18 PM
Trained to what?? Stand on a log, like an elephant on a drum? (I would love to know the point of that one)

Certainly not trained for anything usefull. The horses doing all of that nonsense look very unhappy, most of the things they are doing are ridiculous and unneccessarily hard on the horses, and I have NO respect for his ability to train horses.



Groupie??? You mean me??? :D :d :D Whatever.

If I'm a groupe I'm a groupe of the clique "please read the thread and try to use your brain before you make a response".

Did I SAY he trained them to do anything useful??? Did I? No, I did not. I said he TRAINED THEM and you can't really argue w/that. Sheeesh.

Unneccessarily hard on the horses. Wow. *shaking head* Yes, maybe they are... but he is the ONLY person/trainer/rider/owner in history to have done so?

Have no respect for his ability, that's your perrogative. Selling his stuff internationally and making a mint of money. That, it would seem, is his perrogative. :)

At the end we have to look at our own integrity to make our training descisions. We cannot - and it would seem someone should have learned this by now - we cannot make everyone see our viewpoint.

See? Here I am vainly struggling to get some of ya'll to understand that his methods are, at some small leve, rooted in a viable way to train... don't like him, don't like his methods, don't like the folks who follow his methods... go ahead, you're welcome to not like them.

But to continue to say things that simply are not true out of sheer ignorance... isn't that what most of ya'll are fussing about him doing? You wanna be like him?? *shudder* Who would wanna be like him? sylvia



Odds are that this post will get quoted and lambasted and the last part won't quite make it to the 'quote'....... Prove me wrong. *smile*

STF
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:31 PM
I dont have to give excuses of why I am anti Parelli.
Its my perogitive to say they are IDIOTS with good marketing skills that feed on the many of the helpless and less informed of the horse world.
No, I dont wana be like either of them. They are an embarrsement to real horse people who do train and ride.
And the biggest part that pisses me off is the idiots make comments against other disiplines without having any true knowlege of the theory of it. I have watched PP do his little "piaffey thing" on his horse and I had to tell him but it would get a score of about 4, if that in the ring. Tricks are not dressage Mr. PP man and PP groupies. Those poor people who actually beleive them, are the sad ones. They hold these idiots on pedistal and just as cultish type life, they cant see beyond it.
The only thing I want a carrot stick for is to throw it at them.

arena run
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:38 PM
...Its my perogitive to say they are IDIOTS...

Sure, it's your perrogative to say that, but it's not nice. One can disagree w/someone w/out being mean. sylvia

STF
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:43 PM
Ahhhh, and that is why Linda, in her clinic here with 200 people said that Dressage people were abusive and horrible to their horses. That dressage was a waste of time, etc. (ohhh, it was a wonderful *rolling eyes* speach from her!!!)
That was super nice of her! :lol:

And Im not a nice person when Im offended and that stupid woman offended me.

TBROCKS
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:43 PM
The vast majority of what has been posted so far is unfortunately true. The pictures aren't photo-shopped scams, they're his selling points. Guess what, COTH doesn't have a corner on the market of anti-Parelli. Get on ANY horse bulletin board, start a Parelli thread, and knowlegable horse people across the globe will speak out against it. Parelli defenders, don't you think there must be some basis for this?

STF
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:45 PM
The vast majority of what has been posted so far is unfortunately true. The pictures aren't photo-shopped scams, they're his selling points. Guess what, COTH doesn't have a corner on the market of anti-Parelli. Get on ANY horse bulletin board, start a Parelli thread, and knowlegable horse people across the globe will speak out against it. Parelli defenders, don't you think there must be some basis for this?


That is a good point. And your right. I have seen major nasty posts on all different type of BB's about them.
Guess they aint all that............... afterall.........
:lol:

partlycloudy
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:46 PM
The thing is,fourh mom,is that in Dressage there is a system...that is pretty much universal...ie,point whip at hip means go forward,leg at girth means go forward and so on. How is a non-follower supposed to know the weird cues used to get the horse to face them? Every single NH horse I have gotten is totally confused in so many different ways. I've never had too much problem finding the 'buttons' on a classicly trained dressage horse...why? Because it works and makes sense to the horse!

TBROCKS
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:54 PM
The thing is,fourh mom,is that in Dressage there is a system...that is pretty much universal...ie,point whip at hip means go forward,leg at girth means go forward and so on. How is a non-follower supposed to know the weird cues used to get the horse to face them? Every single NH horse I have gotten is totally confused in so many different ways. I've never had too much problem finding the 'buttons' on a classicly trained dressage horse...why? Because it works and makes sense to the horse!

That's exactly why, as others have said, many many people, myself included, will not even look at a horse for sale that is touted as having had Parelli training.

Equibrit
Aug. 15, 2007, 01:58 PM
He DOES know how to talk 'horse'.
:D sylvia

Do you have proof of this?

Regular horse trainers seem to get their horses top do a whole lot more and they DON"T talk horse!
(according to the messiah)

lstevenson
Aug. 15, 2007, 02:06 PM
That's exactly why, as others have said, many many people, myself included, will not even look at a horse for sale that is touted as having had Parelli training.


:yes: Yep. I steer clear of them as well.

kristinq
Aug. 15, 2007, 02:10 PM
Ok, I'll admit it. LP is really my hero and Im just jealous I cant be like her.

HAHAHA!!! :lol::lol::lol::lol:!!

Just what is it that you're jealous of? lol

dutchmike
Aug. 15, 2007, 02:23 PM
Ok, I'll admit it. LP is really my hero and Im just jealous I cant be like her.

You got to admit LP has a nice butt in those chaps:D

Sandy M
Aug. 15, 2007, 02:58 PM
Ask them and they can train a horse to do anything to the highest level. In a local mag here, he was talking about how he teaches horses to piaffe. I had such a good time reading it. :lol:

I saw a picture of a Parelli trained horse doing piaffe: Unengaged, back hollow, hocks trailing behind, neck straight up, head PARALLEL (not vertical) to the ground, and of course, this was done bareback in a neck rope. Trot in place, maybe. Piaffe - not in a million years.

Sonesta
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:02 PM
That's exactly why, as others have said, many many people, myself included, will not even look at a horse for sale that is touted as having had Parelli training.

DITTO!

dalpal
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:03 PM
You got to admit LP has a nice butt in those chaps:D

Yeah, what about Pat's???:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Lancaster9
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:10 PM
See? Here I am vainly struggling to get some of ya'll to understand that his methods are, at some small leve, rooted in a viable way to train... don't like him, don't like his methods, don't like the folks who follow his methods... go ahead, you're welcome to not like them.

But to continue to say things that simply are not true out of sheer ignorance... isn't that what most of ya'll are fussing about him doing? You wanna be like him?? *shudder* Who would wanna be like him? sylvia



Odds are that this post will get quoted and lambasted and the last part won't quite make it to the 'quote'....... Prove me wrong. *smile*

Sylvia, my dear, you're officially in the "standing in front of a speeding train thinking the people driving it have common sense" clique - welcome, welcome, welcome! I myself was flattened long ago and I'm resigned to the conclusion that most people on here were never taught the Golden Rule or the idea that two wrongs don't make a right. Then again, neither were most world leaders so I can't blame them really.

I do find it seriously offensive the way that the Parellis carry on about dressage, but - oh god am I wasting my fingers typing this again? - closed-minded insults are no way to prove the worth of one's own discipline. I don't care how or what Parelli-ites train their own horses. What on earth does it have to do with me, any more than steeplechase trainers or endurance trainers or circus trainers? My way of countering their slanderous tendencies is to engage civilly with their followers.... So when LP says that dressage is all about "deportment" then I spend time explaining to NH people why that's not true. And I forgive the general public for not understanding something that is, let's face it, a rather esoteric pursuit. All this Parelli-bashing is only proving their point about dressage riders not thinking too deeply. Anyone would think from reading this thread that we're a bunch of sanctimonious snobs, and I KNOW that's not true. What worries me is that this is a very public forum accessible by people of all disciplines and I think we need to be aware of how we're presenting ourselves to the world at large - Parelli people included.

Don't worry everyone, I'm crawling back into my dark corner now so carry on and have fun.... I know you won't let me down. ;)

Candle
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:14 PM
Ok, I'll admit it. LP is really my hero and Im just jealous I cant be like her.

Oh I totally agree. I wish I could teach my hiney to hide itself :no: It sure would make shopping for breeches easier...

Aggie4Bar
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:20 PM
Here I am vainly struggling to get some of ya'll to understand that his methods are, at some small leve, rooted in a viable way to train... No, I would agree with that. But any semblance it once had to so-called Natural Horsemanship has pretty much been replaced with a bunch of redneck rigamaroo. Gone is the practicality. In its stead are a bunch of showy tricks and good marketing. I would suggest that the discipline-bashing comments are merely an indication of how sure he is about his audience. Those who would get up and leave or question his statements about dressage (or anything other subject on which he opines) are not among the target audience.

In a way, it's actually quite fascinating. The vast majority of us take a little here, a little there, see this clinician, audit that one, read a couple books.... and sift. Sifting ability increases with experience. And sifting is good. There's just this strange air of illegality about sifting when it comes to PNH, and the fact that so many of his followers can be so venemous about questions.... It's fascinating. Very cultlike, as someone else stated. Maybe it's a good thing he's into horses and not religion? ;)

Kenike
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:27 PM
He talks "horse?" Funny, when you approach my mare with anything resembling a carrot stick (the whip, not the treat), she literally flips out. And I mean she has gone over backward in total fear trying to get away from the human with the beating stick. Now, she was not a PP trained animal (thank God), but she WAS abused as a baby. Aside from that, I can't tell you how many PP horses I have seen that have a similar reaction to the stupid carrot stick. Maybe it's not as "oh my gosh, I'm gonna' die," but it's an obvious fear response. Some even get aggressive. And, oh, the excuses the humans make... :rolleyes:

I am among those who will not take a look at a PP trained horse. I've done it before, and I learned my lesson in a very, very short amount of time.

DownYonder
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:30 PM
You got to admit LP has a nice butt in those chaps:D

Does PP have a nice butt in chaps? :D

DownYonder
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:32 PM
Oh I totally agree. I wish I could teach my hiney to hide itself :no: It sure would make shopping for breeches easier...

:D:lol::D:lol:

slc2
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:32 PM
like a frog.

DownYonder
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:33 PM
Yeah, what about Pat's???:lol::lol::lol::lol:

OK, you beat me to it! :lol:

DownYonder
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:35 PM
Hey, I know. Let's have a poll!

Who has a more abusive training system: Pat Parelli or Anky?

Wait a minute before replying so I can make some popcorn! :lol:

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:44 PM
Hey, I know. Let's have a poll!

Who has a more abusive training system: Pat Parelli or Anky?

Wait a minute before replying so I can make some popcorn! :lol:

Wait, wait...who has more gold medals???? ;)

lstevenson
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:48 PM
All this Parelli-bashing is only proving their point about dressage riders not thinking too deeply.



How is that, exactly?

Deeper thought doesn't come up with any merit to their methods. Parelli ain't rocket science. It's pretty easy to see what is being done and how there are absolutely no benefits to it unless your horse happens to be a wild rogue on the ground. Zero benefits under saddle. Regular, correct training always prevails.

Anyplace Farm
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:51 PM
And some might say about him, "All hat, no cattle."

Sometimes, I think to some, contact appears to be a tight rein. Just because there is no 'bag' in the rein, people think you have a tight one.

I am one that rides on soft contact at all times and I ride hunters/jumpers. I've had people say to me when watching (let's say they own the horse and want to see me ride it) and they'll say, "You don't really need a lot of contact w/him." I'll push both hands forward and say, "He's carrying himself -- see?" To show them the horse is light and just because there is no loop in the rein, it doesn't mean I'm 'taking back' to get rid of the slack in the rein.

Lancaster9
Aug. 15, 2007, 03:57 PM
How is that, exactly?

Deeper thought doesn't come up with any merit to their methods. Parelli ain't rocket science. It's pretty easy to see what is being done and how there are absolutely no benefits to it unless your horse happens to be a wild rogue on the ground. Zero benefits under saddle. Regular, correct training always prevails.


You're right, deeper thought doesn't make us see Parelli in any more positive light. What I meant is that to the "outside" world, this thread seems a wee bit reactionary and just plain vindictive. It doesn't reveal the thoughtful, intelligent and friendly community that dressage people really are.

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 15, 2007, 04:06 PM
The worst moment in my PP expierence was when a certified P trainer had asked me to help her adjust her stirrups and said to me straight faced I dont do much riding and I might need some help since this horse is trained english (she was riding my friends AQHA hunter under saddle horse in a western saddle).

I dont hate them but I do think their training has some major major holes in it.

wlrottge
Aug. 15, 2007, 04:14 PM
In a way, it's actually quite fascinating. The vast majority of us take a little here, a little there, see this clinician, audit that one, read a couple books.... and sift. Sifting ability increases with experience. And sifting is good. There's just this strange air of illegality about sifting when it comes to PNH, and the fact that so many of his followers can be so venomous about questions.

YES YES YES YES!!! That's where common sense comes into play!! "Hmm... this smells like BS, it looks like BS... Must be BS... Next"

purplnurpl
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:05 PM
It doesn't reveal the thoughtful, intelligent and friendly community that dressage people really are.


I'm sorry. I love everyone here. But I just snorked hot chocolate out of my nose. Thanks for that one.

Sometimes I come in the morning hoping there is a good fight on the dressage forum.
Looks like yesterday I proved my worth and started a good one all by myself! ROFLMAO.

love you guys. have a great afternoon.
(I tell you, I sure would be bored at work with no COTH!)

and I actually didn't know that this was an on going issue with the Ps. I had no idea he was a dressage basher. very interesting.

magnum
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:09 PM
To show them the horse is light and just because there is no loop in the rein, it doesn't mean I'm 'taking back' to get rid of the slack in the rein.

I think ANYWHERE just hit the crux of the matter. I think there is an assumption that light contact = strangling a horse from those on the ground who lack a basic understanding of english riding.

It does seem as if LP had ridden dressage, that she would fully understand this, tho, doesn't it?

I have to tell a story about LP. She was giving a clinic and went in to this entire tangent about how dressage riders lack FEEL. Now, keep in mind, Mrs. LP KNOWS ALL because she RODE dressage at a very high level in Australia, right?

Well, she proceeded to go over several examples of how dressage riders do not understand the basic riding of horses. She then gave examples of items we are "supposed" to know to ride ALL horses. ... All of which she stated: "dressage riders have no clue about."

Well, I had a hard time keeping a straight face when she went in to her piece about "did you know the horse's back swings left and right with each step because the hind legs move the back forward and backward slightly on each side?"

She then went in to a physical demo on how to swing your hips lightly LEFT AND RIGHT in time to the hind legs coming thru. The whole point of her demo was to trash dressage riders for having NO CLUE about this basic BASIC movement of the horse .... and to state what a revelation it was for her to learn about this L and R swing from Pat and other NH practitioners once she left her *allegedly illustrious* dressage career behind.

My friends who ride western were STUNNED at this demo and ragged on me a bit about this.

I just laughed and told them I learned that about the horse's hips swinging within my first 3 ENGLISH based riding lessons -- even when doing HUNTERS -- and especially, it was always repeated when I converted much later to dressage. I stated that it really made me question what LP's background if this was all new to her.

EVERY SINGLE instructor I have ever had in my novice days went over this in the FIRST lesson.

How could LP have done a lot of dressage and been unaware of it?

To me, it is either very bad instruction in her past, or a fib about her experience. ... Either of which, I feel, makes her extremely ignorant of our discipline.

The old saying sprang to mind: "Better to let people think you a fool than to open your mouth and prove it." (Was that Mark Twain?)

Magnum

arena run
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:15 PM
The thing is,fourh mom,is that in Dressage there is a system...that is pretty much universal...ie,point whip at hip means go forward,leg at girth means go forward and so on. How is a non-follower supposed to know the weird cues used to get the horse to face them? Every single NH horse I have gotten is totally confused in so many different ways. I've never had too much problem finding the 'buttons' on a classicly trained dressage horse...why? Because it works and makes sense to the horse!

Now this is a great post for me, pc. ;) This DOES make sense and if there were reputation points on this board I would be giving you some for this reply. A very clear-cut and precise lay-out of why Parelli is so looked down upon by dressage folks.

Couldn't this also be the opposite though? I mean, a horse trained a certain way and then faced w/another way of being handled... woudn't there be confusion on both sides? Horse and handler?

If you take a wp horse and a dressage rider -- or a dressage horse and a w/p or cutting or even eventing rider -- confusion, yes? Two different schools. Two different ways of riding and handling, and even thinking about horses.



And hey, contrary to what some of ya'l might think :D I am not a Parelli defender in the strict sense of the word. I just get tired of seeing people bash something they don't understand or, more to the point, I get sick and tired of seeing these training methods put off as stupid and ineffective. They are not ineffective just because they aren't sanctioned by the dessage community, intelligent and friendly as they may be. :D

Seems like there is bashing just 'cause there is no understanding.

ANYone who blindly follows a modality and rejects ANY other modality (no matter how many good points it might truly have) is... shortsighted. And this encludes PP followers who stupidly, blindly and ignorantly follow him and his methods and dressage riders who stupidly, blidnly, and ignorantly bash those same mehods.

Isn't it on this very board that was posted, "Where knowledge ends, violence begins"? Some of the responses on thread really bring that statement to life. sylvia

arena run
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:31 PM
Do you have proof of this?

Regular horse trainers seem to get their horses top do a whole lot more and they DON"T talk horse!
(according to the messiah)



Ummm, say what? :) sylvia

Sandy M
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:31 PM
Now this is a great post for me, pc. ;)
Couldn't this also be the opposite though? I mean, a horse trained a certain way and then faced w/another way of being handled... woudn't there be confusion on both sides? Horse and handler?

If you take a wp horse and a dressage rider -- or a dressage horse and a w/p or cutting or even eventing rider -- confusion, yes? Two different schools. Two different ways of riding and handling, and even thinking about horses.



You're kidding, right? For starters, if I were switching from dressage to WP, I'd learn something about WP first. As it happens, I showed WP back in the "good old days", California style, and guess what: Those horses knew about half-halts! They worked off seat and legs (not spurs) as does ANY properly trained horse, dressage or other. (I've read about WP spur stops and that seems ridiculous to me.) I've taken cutting horse lessons. I didn't need the instructor to tell me to throw the reins away, I did need instruction about particularly how to "ride" the cutting horse movement - but it wasn't a matter of confusion. I didn't expect a cutting horse to do a correct shoulder in, on the bit. Eventers? Eventers, good H/J riders - all "do" dressage to one degree or another. No confusion here. Try reading some of John Richard Young's books - who pre-dates PP by a long time: His premise was ALL horse training should be the same UNTIL you specialize. He trained horses for western/english/retrained saddle seat horses, etc. No confusion there.

arena run
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by fourh mom
Here I am vainly struggling to get some of ya'll to understand that his methods are, at some small leve, rooted in a viable way to train...




No, I would agree with that. But any semblance it once had to so-called Natural Horsemanship has pretty much been replaced with a bunch of redneck rigamaroo. Gone is the practicality. In its stead are a bunch of showy tricks and good marketing. I would suggest that the discipline-bashing comments are merely an indication of how sure he is about his audience. Those who would get up and leave or question his statements about dressage (or anything other subject on which he opines) are not among the target audience.

In a way, it's actually quite fascinating. The vast majority of us take a little here, a little there, see this clinician, audit that one, read a couple books.... and sift. Sifting ability increases with experience. And sifting is good. There's just this strange air of illegality about sifting when it comes to PNH, and the fact that so many of his followers can be so venemous about questions.... It's fascinating. Very cultlike, as someone else stated. Maybe it's a good thing he's into horses and not religion? ;)


This second paragraph hits pretty durn-near close to what I feel and think about this whole thing, too. He is "ALL ME" and you cannot, simply can-NOT, take anything from any other way of training horses. Not acceptable, imo. sylvia

DownYonder
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:43 PM
Hey, I know. Let's have a poll!

Who has a more abusive training system: Pat Parelli or Anky?

Wait a minute before replying so I can make some popcorn! :lol:


Wait, wait...who has more gold medals???? ;)

Ok, new poll!!

Whose butt looks better in chaps? PP’s or Anky’s? :lol:

Coreene
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:43 PM
Which one of the NH "trainers" has the Jesus fish on all of his ads? I saw that for the first time and thought "Game, set and match. Now all the Jesus NH devotees will defect to you." :lol:

arena run
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:47 PM
You're kidding, right? For starters, if I were switching from dressage to WP, I'd learn something about WP first. As it happens, I showed WP back in the "good old days", California style, and guess what: Those horses knew about half-halts! They worked off seat and legs (not spurs) as does ANY properly trained horse, dressage or other. (I've read about WP spur stops and that seems ridiculous to me.) I've taken cutting horse lessons. I didn't need the instructor to tell me to throw the reins away, I did need instruction about particularly how to "ride" the cutting horse movement - but it wasn't a matter of confusion. I didn't expect a cutting horse to do a correct shoulder in, on the bit. Eventers? Eventers, good H/J riders - all "do" dressage to one degree or another. No confusion here. Try reading some of John Richard Young's books - who pre-dates PP by a long time: His premise was ALL horse training should be the same UNTIL you specialize. He trained horses for western/english/retrained saddle seat horses, etc. No confusion there.



You make two very good points to me... I bolded them.

You would learn a little bit about the horse's training if you were going to ride that horse. If you buy a Parelli trained (oh my gosh I do... I really DO... say that w/my tongue in my cheek) horse wouldn't it behoove you to learn a little bit about that training? (this second "you" being the proverbial you... not YOU, SandyM)

If I were to go purchase a 'made' dressage horse I would have to take lessons in dressage in order to ride that horse properly... OR I could set about retraining. Either one, to me, would be ok... the retraining would be stupid in light of how much I would have just SPENT on that made dressage horse... :D But, it would seem to be a no-brainer, I learn about the horse I've got. If you don't want to buy a Parelli trained horse, fine... but don't fuss about their 'buttons'. (the horse's buttons, that is) sylvia

Mozart
Aug. 15, 2007, 05:49 PM
I think John Lyons has the Christian fish logo in his ads. It is hard to keep them all separate these days...

I think I have seen ads for John Lyons for years and years though. Now you have :

Monty Roberts
Pat Parelli
Clinton Anderson
Chris Irwin (Canadian guy)

What I want to see is all of them together at a clinic. Discussing each other methods. THAT would be good entertainment.

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 15, 2007, 06:02 PM
To their credit I have ridden both Anderson and Lyons trained horses in reining. Very very nice horse that I did very very well on please do not confuse them with PP per they actually have horses competing and winning in several disciplines and are very nice rides. See the key word rides.

Lancaster9
Aug. 15, 2007, 06:03 PM
Am I the only one that gets Chris Irwin mixed up with Steve Irwin?! Somehow my mind thinks crocodiles whenever I see his name... now that's not good advertising.

wlrottge
Aug. 15, 2007, 06:09 PM
See the key word rides.

I've seen sever PP NH devotees leap off their horse at the first sign of trouble. Once they know they are safe, start lunging them there on the spot and say, "they've got to learn not to do that". Besides the fact that I see very few of them actually ride, do they ever consider they need to work through some problems while on the horse? "If I act up, they get off, sweet!"

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 15, 2007, 06:12 PM
I've seen sever PP NH devotees leap off their horse at the first sign of trouble. Once they know they are safe, start lunging them there on the spot and say, "they've got to learn not to do that". Besides the fact that I see very few of them actually ride, do they ever consider they need to work through some problems while on the horse? "If I act up, they get off, sweet!"

This I agree with. But most definately a PP method.

Sandy M
Aug. 15, 2007, 06:17 PM
You make two very good points to me... I bolded them.

You would learn a little bit about the horse's training if you were going to ride that horse. If you buy a Parelli trained (oh my gosh I do... I really DO... say that w/my tongue in my cheek) horse wouldn't it behoove you to learn a little bit about that training? (this second "you" being the proverbial you... not YOU, SandyM)

If I were to go purchase a 'made' dressage horse I would have to take lessons in dressage in order to ride that horse properly... OR I could set about retraining. Either one, to me, would be ok... the retraining would be stupid in light of how much I would have just SPENT on that made dressage horse... :D But, it would seem to be a no-brainer, I learn about the horse I've got. If you don't want to buy a Parelli trained horse, fine... but don't fuss about their 'buttons'. (the horse's buttons, that is) sylvia


But as far as I can telll, Parelli trained horses don't do ANYTHING under saddle. One doesn't need to know the "buttons to push" - there aren't anycomparable to the correct aids for a horse well schooled for dressage, hunter, etc. My well-schooled (now retired) dressage/jumper/trail horse never "learned" the Parelli "squeeze game," he just had regular training normal for his disciplines, and marvel of marvels, you could lead or ride him through narrow spaces, load him into a trailer, etc., effortlessly. Basic ground work is pretty much the same, whatever the discipline. Don't need PP for that. Nor the illusion that waving a carrot stick and playing games is (necessarily) going to improve the way a horse RIDES. I agree with those who say that most Parelli trained horses usually need to be either retrained or just plain trained - because they don't know much when you finally actually RIDE them.

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 15, 2007, 06:25 PM
We had a trainer at our barn that was certified and he had a huge impressive following. He worked and worked on the ground and we held our breath when he promised to do an under saddle seminar. The time came (little known to the poor followers) the week before his seminar we finally watched him get on one of his horses. I kid you not his horse bronc bucked around and then tried to roll. He cussed screamed and did everything to that horse against his teachings that afternoon. By the time his seminar came he had cowed the horse into looking ok. Needless to say the people who saw this display and actually boarded there never recommended him again. Not that us that had any horse sense ever really did.


WHen someone finally commented on it (gasp) he left in a huff and didnt pay some of his board to top it off. Man when your wrong your just wrong.

STF
Aug. 15, 2007, 07:19 PM
*yyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn*
PP and LP stink!

partlycloudy
Aug. 15, 2007, 07:26 PM
is a properly trained horse...no matter what the discipline. I bought a horse recently(it was a warmblood) that had been started by a western guy..NOT a NH.. and he was wonderful. all the buttons worked! the only diference was the horses desire to back up when I halted with contact...but guess what? He stopped when I said Whoa!;)

I fail to understand the reasoning fro having a horse swing its butt away from you at all times...and I have NEVER found the button to stop it! Only very patient retraing of whoa will do it.

Sonesta
Aug. 15, 2007, 07:29 PM
You know. I'm really torn here. I can't decide which is the bigger idiot - PP/LP, Pony Boy or Monty Roberts.

But I do think the P's do the most harm, so I guess they get the big weiner award from me.

dalpal
Aug. 15, 2007, 07:35 PM
You know. I'm really torn here. I can't decide which is the bigger idiot - PP/LP, Pony Boy or Monty Roberts.

But I do think the P's do the most harm, so I guess they get the big weiner award from me.

And I find Clinton Anderson highly annoying.....I watched one of his program where his idea of flexion was to stop, slam on the brakes, and jerk the mare's head from side to side...and he kept repeating this.

I do have to admit (sheepishly) that I do watch the Parelli show, I do find it highly entertaining.

As for the RFD cowboy type shows...I think Tommy Garland's is the best by a long shot.

Milocalwinnings
Aug. 15, 2007, 08:36 PM
Ya know... I saw this quote and thought it applied.

"Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak"

GreyTrakehner92
Aug. 15, 2007, 08:36 PM
I think this applies to the parelli's.

"Light travels faster than sound. Thats why people seem bright untill you talk to them."


hehehe.

GreyTrakehner92
Aug. 15, 2007, 08:39 PM
haha wow. that was cool.

Milocalwinnings
Aug. 15, 2007, 08:40 PM
haha wow. that was cool.

Must have posted at the same time:lol:

lstevenson
Aug. 15, 2007, 09:11 PM
And hey, contrary to what some of ya'l might think :D I am not a Parelli defender in the strict sense of the word. I just get tired of seeing people bash something they don't understand or, more to the point, I get sick and tired of seeing these training methods put off as stupid and ineffective. They are not ineffective just because they aren't sanctioned by the dessage community, intelligent and friendly as they may be.



I have two questions for you fourh mom:

First of all, what is it exactly that you think we don't understand?

Second, you say you get sick of seeing these training methods put off as stupid and ineffective. What do YOU think they are effective in achieving?

lstevenson
Aug. 15, 2007, 09:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancaster9
It doesn't reveal the thoughtful, intelligent and friendly community that dressage people really are.





I'm sorry. I love everyone here. But I just snorked hot chocolate out of my nose. Thanks for that one.



:lol:

Ride2Fly
Aug. 15, 2007, 11:38 PM
Well you tight rein holding dressage riders are clearly missing the
"special magic" of Pat's training methods. As an event rider I was
at Rolex one year when the Parellis were doing their thing in association
with the O'Connors. Pat made his way down the stands past where my
husband and I were sitting, then turned to look back to where his wife had
stopped to talk to someone. He snapped his fingers for her and damned if
she didn't pick up a lovely medium trot and come to his side. My husband
met my eyes and raised one eyebrow: "Certainly something must be said
for his training methods, said the husband, if I tried to snap my fingers to
bring you to heel you'd take my head off." :D

Tongue firmly in cheek
Brooke

An aspiring dressage rider although I nearly threw in the double bridle when my brilliant french dressage trainer quietly lamented: You and I ve struggle with ze round thighs; ze round thighs are no good for dressage!"

Kate66
Aug. 15, 2007, 11:58 PM
I don't give the Ps a second thought. Obviously everyone on this board knows how to ride perfectly (said tongue in cheek!) and fully understands that engagement comes from the rear end forward.

I would, however, venture to guess that the majority of "dressage" riders actually are completely oblivious how to get "engagement" with their horse and believe that getting their horse into a frame is achieved by pulling harder on the bit, using a martingale in training, and generally creating a hollow, nose down frame.

Now, of course, we can argue what is a "dressage rider"? Was Parelli referring to top level riders who obviously don't have a tight rein, but have a good contact on a sensitive mouth, who are truly dressage riders....or was he referring to what potentially constitutes the majority of people who claim to be dressage riders that honestly don't have a clue and really do have a tight rein?

STF
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:02 AM
Well you tight rein holding dressage riders are clearly missing the
"special magic" of Pat's training methods. As an event rider I was
at Rolex one year when the Parellis were doing their thing in association
with the O'Connors. Pat made his way down the stands past where my
husband and I were sitting, then turned to look back to where his wife had
stopped to talk to someone. He snapped his fingers for her and damned if
she didn't pick up a lovely medium trot and come to his side. My husband
met my eyes and raised one eyebrow: "Certainly something must be said
for his training methods, said the husband, if I tried to snap my fingers to
bring you to heel you'd take my head off." :D

Tongue firmly in cheek
Brooke

An aspiring dressage rider although I nearly threw in the double bridle when my brilliant french dressage trainer quietly lamented: You and I ve struggle with ze round thighs; ze round thighs are no good for dressage!"


LMAO! At least she is good for something then! :lol:

STF
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:09 AM
I don't give the Ps a second thought. Obviously everyone on this board knows how to ride perfectly (said tongue in cheek!) and fully understands that engagement comes from the rear end forward.

I would, however, venture to guess that the majority of "dressage" riders actually are completely oblivious how to get "engagement" with their horse and believe that getting their horse into a frame is achieved by pulling harder on the bit, using a martingale in training, and generally creating a hollow, nose down frame.

Now, of course, we can argue what is a "dressage rider"? Was Parelli referring to top level riders who obviously don't have a tight rein, but have a good contact on a sensitive mouth, who are truly dressage riders....or was he referring to what potentially constitutes the majority of people who claim to be dressage riders that honestly don't have a clue and really do have a tight rein?


Your missing the point!!!!!
The point is, those jerkwads are leading people who have no idea of our sport to think its done in that manner. He did not go to explain (nor do they at any other time) the way dressage should be done. They lump all bad riding in dressage. I was there, I heard it first hand with Linda yappin her mouth yrs ago.
And yes, the ones who actually DO understand the true meaning of dressage and dont pull their horses together, yaddy, yaddy, yaddy (from your post above) are the ones that get the most annoyed, AND have the right to.
Parelli's know as much about dressage as my 2 yr old knows about Quantum Physics. :lol:

Reiterin
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:11 AM
Here are some links to pictures of LP and also the Parelli professional Grand Prix rider, Karen Rolf. She was Anne Gribbons assistant trainer for a long time.

Karen Rolf in medium trot bareback string in mouth only (http://www.parelli-waldzoo.de/deutsch/josenhof/images/News/Karen%20Rolf01.jpg)

Karen's website (http://www.dressagenaturally.net/)

Parelli dressage (http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/dd288/natural_dressage_diva/?action=view&current=6729.jpg)

There is also the Spanish Olympic rider Luis Lucio who endorses the program for dressage
http://www.luislucio.com/doma-nat/index.htm

Donella
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:08 AM
Meh..you aren't much of a horseman/woman if you cannot actually GET ON and RIDE your horse. Ground manners are great and all, but they are also not rocket science to teach. If you want to play piont and fetch with an animal, get a dog and join flyball or agility or something. Horses are for riding, if you can't ride it that is your buisness, but you had better not call yourself a horseman or woman.

Secondly, I definately wouldn't put John Lyons or some of the other NH guys in even the same discipline as PP. John Lyons is all about teaching USEFULL ground manners that translate into a better horse to ride. Not all NHer's are created equal..just most of them:lol:

And for the poster who claimed that we are not understanding something about PP...please, piont out what I am failing to understand!. I think it becomes pretty evident that your horse training program is a pile of SHI* when you get on your HORSE and you cant actually RIDE it.

Dazednconfused
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:34 AM
As for the RFD cowboy type shows...I think Tommy Garland's is the best by a long shot.

Ironically, he is likely the only guru of the typical ones listed, that actually has done something significant. Like the arabian division or not, the man has thoroughly proven himself in the ring - and not 20 years ago out of 8 entries on a mule. In recent years, competing against the best in the nation of his breed. Gotta give him props for that. :yes:

ise@ssl
Aug. 16, 2007, 07:39 AM
From the times I've watched some of their "shows" on RFD TV - what strikes me most are the people in the audience. I keep thinking to myself - the Parelli Show travels all over the country - are there really so many people that own horses who don't know anything about handling them, or training them that they PAY MONEY to go to these shows and believe some of the hooey the Parelli's sell? Scary.

I also saw one show where they had people who on their horses whe were OBVIOUSLY not good riders, no helmets and a situation that was a recipe for disaster.

As others have said - they get the prize for marketing. Many of his NH techniques are obviously those of others that have been around long before PP was even in a saddle. And his wife seems to have some obsession about bad-mouthing dressage. But consider that if they elminated all the bad mouthing the shows would be so much shorter and the audience would probably feel they didn't get their money's worth.

It's a free country and they are obviously making a lot of dough from people who sit like zombies believing every word. I wonder how many go home and get injured trying some of these stunts.

mbarrett
Aug. 16, 2007, 08:53 AM
Ok, I've been off this thread for awhile, so maybe someone already made this point.

But, Fourh Mom, you said PP gets his horses trained. But to do what, I ask? Run around a round pen, jump barrels, walk backwards away from swinging ropes. Big deal. Ringling Brothers is coming to my area over labor day weekend, if I want to watch tricks, I'll go there.

If a rider/trainer has won major international/national competitons, they must be doing something right in their training. And yes, it's not the number of medals you win that makes a horse trained. But it sure is an indicator a person is doing something right.

PP is padding his bank account from newbies who are impressed because they love the song and dance. I'll save my money.

slc2
Aug. 16, 2007, 09:34 AM
last time i checked, patty had not gotten a federal law passed saying everyone had to adore him and his wifey, but i await future developments.:winkgrin:

hitchinmygetalong
Aug. 16, 2007, 09:37 AM
Here are some links to pictures of LP and also the Parelli professional Grand Prix rider, Karen Rolf.

<snip>

Karen's website (http://www.dressagenaturally.net/)

Parelli dressage (http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/dd288/natural_dressage_diva/?action=view&current=6729.jpg)


Exactly how does one become an "associate professor of Parelli Natural Horse.Man.Ship", anyway?

And the photo of LP? :confused: I don't know nuthin' from nuthin' about dressage, but is your outside elbow SUPPOSED to be sticking out perpendicular to the horse? And is your inside shoulder SUPPOSED to be inches and inches below your outside shoulder?

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 16, 2007, 09:40 AM
Exactly how does one become an "associate professor of Parelli Natural Horse.Man.Ship", anyway?

And the photo of LP? :confused: I don't know nuthin' from nuthin' about dressage, but is your outside elbow SUPPOSED to be sticking out perpendicular to the horse? And is your inside shoulder SUPPOSED to be inches and inches below your outside shoulder?


Only when your horse is on the forehand, crooked and not even tracking up behind. :lol:

slainte!
Aug. 16, 2007, 09:44 AM
True, gimmicks won't last, but hard as it is to believe Pat pretty much trains the horse in a way the horse understands. THAT will last.

AND THIS HAS BEEN DONE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pat Parelli did NOT invent this sytem. I do not follow PP and I DO NOT allow it in my barn (children are to ride in saddles AND bridles in their lessons). But believe me, any ONE of my horses will follow me around the farm without a lead rope, follow me over a cross rail, and groud tie in the wash stall. He's BRAIN WASHING you in believing this is some "new technique".

[QOUTE] Him selling his stuff or dissing dressage or other desciplines or lunging from his neck... you know, whatever. *rolls eyes* He'll pay for those things on other levels. BUT... is there ANY arguement that he can and does get his horses trained? Maybe not to ride the way folks on here undertstand riding but can you really argue w/the fact that his horses DO get trained.....

He DOES know how to talk 'horse'. He just needs to work on his 'human'. :D sylvia[/QUOTE]

You, I am afraid, are completely false. Get a real horse trainer.

caffeinated
Aug. 16, 2007, 09:52 AM
Here are some links to pictures of LP ...


Parelli dressage (http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/dd288/natural_dressage_diva/?action=view&current=6729.jpg)



What exactly am I supposed to think about this? What I'm seeing is a horse on his forehand, with a crooked rider attempting to bend FOR the horse. He's bending the base of his neck, but not much else. Or am I just blind? It's altogether possible...

STF
Aug. 16, 2007, 09:54 AM
AND THIS HAS BEEN DONE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pat Parelli did NOT invent this sytem. I do not follow PP and I DO NOT allow it in my barn (children are to ride in saddles AND bridles in their lessons). But believe me, any ONE of my horses will follow me around the farm without a lead rope, follow me over a cross rail, and groud tie in the wash stall. He's BRAIN WASHING you in believing this is some "new technique".


Uhhh, yuppers!

I lead most of my horses from the paddock to the stall with my arm over their neck. :lol: If I stop, they stop, if I go they go! Must be some hidden Parelli in me! Baaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa

purplnurpl
Aug. 16, 2007, 09:55 AM
You make two very good points to me... I bolded them.

You would learn a little bit about the horse's training if you were going to ride that horse. If you buy a Parelli trained (oh my gosh I do... I really DO... say that w/my tongue in my cheek) horse wouldn't it behoove you to learn a little bit about that training? (this second "you" being the proverbial you... not YOU, SandyM)

If I were to go purchase a 'made' dressage horse I would have to take lessons in dressage in order to ride that horse properly... OR I could set about retraining. Either one, to me, would be ok... the retraining would be stupid in light of how much I would have just SPENT on that made dressage horse... :D But, it would seem to be a no-brainer, I learn about the horse I've got. If you don't want to buy a Parelli trained horse, fine... but don't fuss about their 'buttons'. (the horse's buttons, that is) sylvia

I'm sorry, but when did 'PARELLI' turn into a dicipline?
I should not have to LEARN how to produce good ground manners from my horse.
Oh, wait...I can't find my carrot stick. Guess Kaboom gets the day off.

Guess it's in my best interest to never buy a MADE PARELLI HORSE! I am just too closed minded for his sport.

K, I've had my moring laugh. time to get some work done!
laugh, laugh, laugh, snort. laugh, laugh, laugh, snort.


: )

STF
Aug. 16, 2007, 09:55 AM
What exactly am I supposed to think about this? What I'm seeing is a horse on his forehand, with a crooked rider attempting to bend FOR the horse. He's bending the base of his neck, but not much else. Or am I just blind? It's altogether possible...

And dontcha know that a tie down (standing martingale as we ennnnglish people call it).... is always appopriate tack for proper dressage training! :lol:

STF
Aug. 16, 2007, 09:57 AM
I'm sorry, but when did 'PARELLI' turn into a dicipline?
I should not have to LEARN how to produce good ground manners from my horse.
Oh, wait...I can't find my carrot stick. Guess Kaboom gets the day off.

guess it's in my best interest to never buy a MADE PARELLI HORSE! I am just too closed minded for his sport.

K, I've had my moring laugh. time to get some work done!


I have one here at the farm. Poor mare was a nightmare and so hateful when she came in. Parelli is mental abuse for horses, end of story!

Steif
Aug. 16, 2007, 10:01 AM
Ha, How about that tie down. God help us if the horse lifts his head a little and is not behind the vertical. Oh, and it really bothers me when these NH's nuts drag the "christian" thing into everything. They want to sell religion as well.

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 16, 2007, 10:04 AM
Ha, How about that tie down. God help us if the horse lifts his head a little and is not behind the vertical. Oh, and it really bothers me when these NH's nuts drag the "christian" thing into everything. They want to sell religion as well.

Well, it is a cult after all. NH teachings must be taken on faith alone because there are no objective criteria by which they can be judged by independent individuals. You know--like in horse shows. :lol:

Equilibrium
Aug. 16, 2007, 10:19 AM
I don't believe in all this "be a horseman in 7 easy steps while buying all my cd's" crap either. My horses are quite happy because I have horse sense already.

But as for the tight rein thing. I am a very very newbie to Dressage. This is what I get out of the discipline. When a horse reaches the level that he is probably refering to, it looks as though your reins may be extremely tight. But when you are learning Dressage and your horse is learning Dressage, you learn that your contact becomes diffrent as the hind end is engaging more. I mostly ride young horses or ex racehorses so I know that as we progress and they in turn get stronger in the hind end, it may look as I have a shorter hold when in fact I don't, it's just the horse coming up from behind and meeting my hands. To be honest when I progress a bit to get the contact I'm looking for I get a little excited. Like I said, I am just trying to have a better understanding of the sport. I probably have it all wrong, but isn't it more a feel than grabbing the reins and saying, now horse lets have engagement!
Anybody, anybody?

What I just wrote probably sounds really stupid.

Terri

slc2
Aug. 16, 2007, 10:25 AM
it is not stupid, not by any stretch of the imagination

Aggie4Bar
Aug. 16, 2007, 10:36 AM
Secondly, I definately wouldn't put John Lyons or some of the other NH guys in even the same discipline as PP. John Lyons is all about teaching USEFULL ground manners that translate into a better horse to ride. Not all NHer's are created equal..just most of them:lol:Many mooons ago, in the days before Monty, PonyBoy, or Parelli had arrived on the scene, before the NH marketing machine churned to life, and when John Lyons was just beginning to make a name for himself, I bought a Lyons trained horse. At the time of purchase, I didn't know John Lyons from Adam, so the name meant nothing to me. The horse was a 4-year old who'd only been under saddle 8 months, most of which was with Lyons. And it was time well spent. Great horse. Impeccable manners. Top notch training foundation. It wasn't long after that when I began learning about NH by learning about John Lyons and Tom Dorrence.

In my current perspective, there's very little difference between old NH and classical methods of working a horse in hand. The apparatus and culture differs, but much of the logic and what is sought to be achieved is the same. Since most riders don't start their own horses or ever learn how to ever properly work a horse in hand, it's easy to see how such old techniques can be made to look new or revolutionary.

The biggest difference between the classical approach and NH is branding. There are different schools of dressage, but there's not any true branding. The most educational guys in NH don't attempt to brand their particular method either. Dorrence (to my knowledge) does not call his style of horsemanship "Dorrence Natural Horsemanship"; he just calls it natural horsemanship. Mark Rashid doesn't even like the expression "natural horsemanship"; he just calls it horsemanship. But then you get to the others, and they are just falling all over themselves trying to brand their version of horsemanship and corner the market. Parelli is the epitome of that. PNH is not about horsemanship; it's about franchising a method and making money from it. It's a brand. It's the McDonalds of horse training - consistent, predictable, recognizable anywhere, but not necessarily good for you.

STF
Aug. 16, 2007, 10:59 AM
Top notch training foundation. It wasn't long after that when I began learning about NH by learning about John Lyons and Tom Dorrence.



Yup, everyone forgot about Tom Dorrance and Ray Hunt. They think Parelli was the NH Gods, but honestly they were only better at marketing! :lol:

STF
Aug. 16, 2007, 11:00 AM
Has anyone worked with Linda Tellington Jones on her techniques?

Musn'tGrumble
Aug. 16, 2007, 11:05 AM
Here are some links to pictures of LP ...

Parelli dressage (http://s221.photobucket.com/albums/dd288/natural_dressage_diva/?action=view&current=6729.jpg)


The picture reminds me of one time when I was fluidly riding left on a canter serpentine, whilst horse decided he was going to fluidly spook right. It was one of those "hello ground" moments. :D

STF
Aug. 16, 2007, 11:09 AM
The picture reminds me of one time when I was fluidly riding left on a canter serpentine, whilst horse decided he was going to fluidly spook right. It was one of those "hello ground" moments. :D

Were ya peddlin??? LMAO

Ponyclubrocks
Aug. 16, 2007, 11:12 AM
I go away for a business trip and miss another wild and crazy thread! Bummer. But really 11 pages wasted on PP is probably 9 pages too many!:)

Eclectic Horseman
Aug. 16, 2007, 11:24 AM
Has anyone worked with Linda Tellington Jones on her techniques?

I stopped by her "presentation" at Equine Affaire a few years back. I got as far as "if you want to find out how you can do this, buy my book." Then I moved on to the next carnival barker.

jeano
Aug. 16, 2007, 11:30 AM
The three Parelli trained horses I've known collectively couldnt be ridden, were fat and lazy, knew how to terrify their owners into getting off in a heartbeat (not that that ever took much, 2 of 3 owners already afraid of horses/riding, 3rd was just frantic with worry that something might be BOTHERING little poopsie) and the 3rd horse, which, god help me, lived rent free on my land for a month before I demanded his owner come and get him away before I called the knacker--the 3rd horse, who according to his owner had been STARTED parelli--that horse couldnt be approached with a bit, wormer, or anything else that he thought might disturb his little mouth or head. Owner took roughly an hour one time cooing at him and trying to teach me all the desensitizing rituals she used to get him to let her put the bute tube in his mouth.....And she ended up getting maybe a teaspoon of bute IN him as opposed to the rest of the dose, which she got on herself.

So, by God, yes, the horses are TRAINED. Wouldnt give you a dime for one.

The very best part of the saga of horse number three was when he was clearly having some kind of back/stifle issues and a buddy (not his owner) was trying to work him very gently in the Parelli neighbor's round pen. Said neighbor didnt know how this wonder horse had been started, and didnt know he was lame. She watched my pal try to encourage the horse to move, which didnt happen because the horse was too sore. Horse was not being ridden, mind you. Neighbor considered the horse's refusal and awkward movements and opined, "He needs Parelli!"

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 11:58 AM
I have two questions for you fourh mom:

First of all, what is it exactly that you think we don't understand?

Second, you say you get sick of seeing these training methods put off as stupid and ineffective. What do YOU think they are effective in achieving?

Using 'we' is what I'm sorta talking about here... there are some (read "not all") folks on this board who will fuss and groan (and get ugly) about something they don't understand. Case in point the 'hide the hiney' game. Two people have used the universal terms "always" and "all the time"... now, I was taught pretty quick along that use of "always" and "never" are usually.... umm, wrong. :) No one ALWAYS or NEVER does anything. Horses trained properly to face you do not ALWAYS face you ALL the time. To say these things are, to me, quite indicative of a misunderstanding.

I think his training methods, if done correctly...... hello, correctly.... can accomplish quite a bit. Let it be known..... I do agree w/about 79% of what's been said here about Pat Parelli and his marketing system. AND I agree that his training schedule and 'levels' do not address riding as well as they should. This is something I've heard him admit and then he revamped his levels. Don't really care though.... I won't be buying it. I intend to 'never' give him ANY of my money. :) Simply on principle if nothing else. :) I see a good bit of common sense about horses and how they think in his book (not his pamphlets and DVD's).

His book is one reason I'm actually riding my horse.... and am having fun w/it. I see alot of dishonesty and snake-oil chicanery in his demonstrations but I see alot of horse sense in his book. Sifting has been mentioned on here... I sift the crap and use what I can. Some people believe there is nothing BUT crap. :D Go them. They're entitled to their beliefs. I am entitled to mine, yes?






Ok, I've been off this thread for awhile, so maybe someone already made this point.
But, Fourh Mom, you said PP gets his horses trained. But to do what, I ask? Run around a round pen, jump barrels, walk backwards away from swinging ropes. Big deal. Ringling Brothers is coming to my area over labor day weekend, if I want to watch tricks, I'll go there.
If a rider/trainer has won major international/national competitons, they must be doing something right in their training. And yes, it's not the number of medals you win that makes a horse trained. But it sure is an indicator a person is doing something right.
PP is padding his bank account from newbies who are impressed because they love the song and dance. I'll save my money.


Yes, one does see his horses doing that. There's really no point in me addressing this 'cause nothing I could say would change your mind.

I would like to offer the thought that medals and winning at a show (regardless of the level of competition) is NOT 'always' a good indicator of a person doing something right. It IS an indicator that a person is doing what the judges award. One has only to take a diversionary trip into the Gaited World to see that winning does not equal rightness.



AND THIS HAS BEEN DONE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pat Parelli did NOT invent this sytem. I do not follow PP and I DO NOT allow it in my barn (children are to ride in saddles AND bridles in their lessons). But believe me, any ONE of my horses will follow me around the farm without a lead rope, follow me over a cross rail, and groud tie in the wash stall. He's BRAIN WASHING you in believing this is some "new technique".


(??) I'm confused by this. A quote from his book and from the RFD shows I've seen goes like, "It's so old it's new again". Where's the slant that he's trying to claim it as his own? The MARKETING... the WRITING IT DOWN AND SELLING IT.... now THAT he claims as his own. :) and THAT'S the part I have a problem with. It's almost nauseating to watch them be so serious about their way of doing things being the only way of doing things. But do we have to buy into that? No. We don't.




You, I am afraid, are completely false. Get a real horse trainer.

Wow. You can tell that from where you're sitting? Wow.








...<snip>

The biggest difference between the classical approach and NH is branding. There are different schools of dressage, but there's not any true branding. The most educational guys in NH don't attempt to brand their particular method either. Dorrence (to my knowledge) does not call his style of horsemanship "Dorrence Natural Horsemanship"; he just calls it natural horsemanship. Mark Rashid doesn't even like the expression "natural horsemanship"; he just calls it horsemanship. But then you get to the others, and they are just falling all over themselves trying to brand their version of horsemanship and corner the market. Parelli is the epitome of that. PNH is not about horsemanship; it's about franchising a method and making money from it. It's a brand. It's the McDonalds of horse training - consistent, predictable, recognizable anywhere, but not necessarily good for you.


I just had to quote this again 'cause I thought it was very well-written. It does seem that he's leaving horsemanship and heading at an alarming speed toward ME ONLY KNOWS (incorrect grammar intentional). He still does, to my way of thinking, do a fairly good job of letting folks (read NON HORSE PEOPLE) know that horses are horses and do not intentionally do bad things just to make us mad. They do what they do because of what they are, not because they have designs on ticking us off. My mother actually thought that one literally 'gets on and just rides'. She had no idea of the ground work involved or the under saddle training you have to do... she had seen way too many cowboy movies. :) :D sylvia

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:06 PM
The three Parelli trained horses I've known collectively couldnt be ridden, were fat and lazy, knew how to terrify their owners into getting off in a heartbeat (not that that ever took much, 2 of 3 owners already afraid of horses/riding, 3rd was just frantic with worry that something might be BOTHERING little poopsie) and the 3rd horse, which, god help me, lived rent free on my land for a month before I demanded his owner come and get him away before I called the knacker--the 3rd horse, who according to his owner had been STARTED parelli--that horse couldnt be approached with a bit, wormer, or anything else that he thought might disturb his little mouth or head. Owner took roughly an hour one time cooing at him and trying to teach me all the desensitizing rituals she used to get him to let her put the bute tube in his mouth.....And she ended up getting maybe a teaspoon of bute IN him as opposed to the rest of the dose, which she got on herself.

So, by God, yes, the horses are TRAINED. Wouldnt give you a dime for one.

The very best part of the saga of horse number three was when he was clearly having some kind of back/stifle issues and a buddy (not his owner) was trying to work him very gently in the Parelli neighbor's round pen. Said neighbor didnt know how this wonder horse had been started, and didnt know he was lame. She watched my pal try to encourage the horse to move, which didnt happen because the horse was too sore. Horse was not being ridden, mind you. Neighbor considered the horse's refusal and awkward movements and opined, "He needs Parelli!"

These type scenarios are ---- well, just sad.

Does this mean that EVERY Parelli trained horse is this way? *confused* Why would it? How could it?

I've said this before... if someone takes ANY training system it gets run through their own particular brand of 'thought processes' before it comes out as results in their horse. Folks who take Parelli or any other natural training system and come out w/horses who can't be wormed are... well, it probably wouldn't matter what training system they used would it?

I took a horse who would rear and spin and set back if she were tied when you approached her w/a wormer when I first got her. Last time I wormed I walked up to her in the pasture and wormed her loose. Where's the badness in that? sylvia

PS: Just adding that I don't have a carrot stick or a Kholrabi stick or anything like that. I use my lunge whip if I need it and the popper end of my lead rope (which I made myself, thank-you-very-much). I use what I learned about how a horse thinks, not the pat-methods (pun not intended) PP proclaims. :)

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:16 PM
Hmmm, my posts seem to come off as being a bit 'down my nose' at some of this. :) I do not intend for them to be that way.

I'm trying to discuss as I would if we were all sitting around and talking about this.... which is really hard to do on a bb. The best I can offer is the quote and respond method. :D I don't mean it to sound as though I'm shooting down everything I'm responding to.

If we can each contain our antagonism we might just be able to learn something about each other here.... and bring something positive out of this whole Natural Mess. :D sylvia

Lancaster9
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:30 PM
Exactly how does one become an "associate professor of Parelli Natural Horse.Man.Ship", anyway?


Ahem. It's 'Associate Parelli Professional'. I have no idea what it means but as a former - and future - professor, I feel the need to make that distinction! ;)

myhorsefaith
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:30 PM
Just wanted to say, fourh mom, that I appreciate your posts on this thread.

i'd love to have a discussion about this. I've been in the program, I know and I see a lot of these posts and understand the poster's comments and points of view, but I also know from the program what it is trying to have people achieve, and how sorely they are missing the boat- thus the great disdain for all things PP.

Its tough. I've seen amazing horses & people in the program, and amazing horses & people out. I've seen bad in and bad out.

If you have questions about why PP ites try to do some of the things you see them do- ask me, I'll be more than happy to help. Now, whether they do them right or not...:lol:

Sandy M
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:31 PM
fourhmom, the big part of the problem is that while you and I and most of the people on this board KNOW that what PP is MARKETING is old-time methods, repackaged, the fact is that those methods rely on an UNDERSTANDING of horses that the newbie to horses does not have. Yes, the methods work, but the user of the methods has to be able to understand and react properly to the horse's responses. Most newbies to horses don't have this knowledge. The are usually, sigh, middle-aged women who buy a young unbroke A-rab, or a BLM horse or the like, rather than the tried-and-true broke-to-death schoolmaster (western or english) that they SHOULD buy. Then things get out of hand. What should they do? PP offers a "quick fix" - just watch my demo, BUY my DVD, BUY my carrot stick, and your problems will be solved! They end up playing games and never riding, when what they really need to do is work with a good traditional trainer in whatever discipline they want, and riding his/her schoolies or that broke horse that they should have bought in the first place.

People on this board who are more experienced horse people can, indeed do, use bits and pieces of PP's methods as a useful tool in their training program, but I, and I am sure a LOT of people REALLY get bent out of shape with LP and PP's dissing of dressage, and the attitude that many of their devotees pick up from them: PP is superior, if you don't do PP you are abusing your horse, if you don't do PP you are WRONG.

myhorsefaith
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:33 PM
I agree with you, too Sandy M. Well put.

Kenike
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:46 PM
If you take a wp horse and a dressage rider -- or a dressage horse and a w/p or cutting or even eventing rider -- confusion, yes? Two different schools. Two different ways of riding and handling, and even thinking about horses.


It might be two different ways of riding, handling, and thinking about horses, but anyone trained to ride properly can get on a horse and ride them. BASIC training, for both horse and rider, is the same, no matter what discipline. I've done it, I've seen others do it, and all have been able to do it. Those I've seen have the toughest time are those who are strictly WP riders because they aren't used to going forward. Yet, with just a tiny bit of "close your leg, pick your hand up a bit and shorten your rein, and let the horse go FORWARD," they do just fine and dandy.

Back to reading

lstevenson
Aug. 16, 2007, 12:50 PM
I think his training methods, if done correctly...... hello, correctly.... can accomplish quite a bit.



Like what? Please do tell!

Lancaster9
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:00 PM
Hmmm, my posts seem to come off as being a bit 'down my nose' at some of this. :) I do not intend for them to be that way.

I'm trying to discuss as I would if we were all sitting around and talking about this.... which is really hard to do on a bb. The best I can offer is the quote and respond method. :D I don't mean it to sound as though I'm shooting down everything I'm responding to.

If we can each contain our antagonism we might just be able to learn something about each other here.... and bring something positive out of this whole Natural Mess. :D sylvia

fourh mom, I seriously admire your resiliency and integrity. Don't worry about your posts, I think they seem much less "down your nose" than most of the others.

If some people have fun playing with their hroses and making them move sideways over barrels and step on frisbees, well what's the big deal?? I admit I've never seen a horse ruined by Parelli techniques (though I'm sure they do exist), but I sure have seen a heckuva lot of 'em ruined by Olympic-discipline trainers. I simply wish that more people - even those like me who really dislike Parelli - would acknowledge that there is a place for him in the horse world. Like him or not, his marketing prowess has gotten through to a whole crowd of people that would otherwise still be blaming every issue on their horses and selling them on down the equestrian food chain. Is PNH dangerous or irresponsible because some people apply the techniques incorrectly? I'm not sure... What happens if we substitute Dressage for PNH in that sentence? I just prefer to think that Karma will sort out P's ego and in the meantime we should beware of glass houses.

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:05 PM
*standing and raising my hand*

My name is Sylvia, and I am a Middle-Aged beginner. :)

Although my arab of choice was a semi-broke 9yo. :D :D

His name is Dancer and he wouldn't load, wouldn't be caught, would rear, wouldn't back, wouldn't turn, wouldn't stop. The only things that would count as good were the fact that he was very gentle to be handled. No buck, buck, or kick in him. :D I've had him for 8 years now.

Pat's book, his BOOK mind you, is why I count myself successful w/my current 9 other horses and my 2 mules. His book and Clinton Anderson and Craig Cameron and John Lyons and the folks in my riding club whom I would like to emmulate and this board and the mule board and Teaching Jumping and The Horse Riding Manuel and The Encyclopedia of Horses and Ponies and Basic Horsemanship and every-other-book-I've-ever-read-about-horses-and-horse-training.

Plus the fact that I'm very hard-headed.

8 Years later that 9yo semi-broke arab is my 'school' horse.

So... I suppose THAT is my answer to what correct training w/Parelli and other natural training methods accomplishes. Hard head and tons of other books read not-withstanding. sylvia

purplnurpl
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:06 PM
If some people have fun playing with their hroses and making them move sideways over barrels and step on frisbees, well what's the big deal??


The big deal is not with these people, or their horses. It's with the Ps and the fact that to keep their following they have to blind their people from the rest of the world. And in doing so they lie about other techniques. They are dishonest. THAT is quite an interesting deal.

i.e. they sell knock off Cool Aid.

Like I said. They have to spread lies to make themselves feel better...or to make money.

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:10 PM
fourh mom, I seriously admire your resiliency and integrity. Don't worry about your posts, I think they seem much less "down your nose" than most of the others.

If some people have fun playing with their hroses and making them move sideways over barrels and step on frisbees, well what's the big deal?? I admit I've never seen a horse ruined by Parelli techniques (though I'm sure they do exist), but I sure have seen a heckuva lot of 'em ruined by Olympic-discipline trainers. I simply wish that more people - even those like me who really dislike Parelli - would acknowledge that there is a place for him in the horse world. Like him or not, his marketing prowess has gotten through to a whole crowd of people that would otherwise still be blaming every issue on their horses and selling them on down the equestrian food chain. Is PNH dangerous or irresponsible because some people apply the techniques incorrectly? I'm not sure... What happens if we substitute Dressage for PNH in that sentence? I just prefer to think that Karma will sort out P's ego and in the meantime we should beware of glass houses.


Resiliancy, eh? :D Now THAT's a new term for my ailment (durn-near terminal hard-headedness). :D :D I give you kudos for your tact and diplomacy! LOL sylvia

Kenike
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:11 PM
back on the "confusion" of different disciplines.....anyone remember Jimmy Williams?
He sure had no problem riding jumpers, dressage, and reining. Must not have been too confusing.

The picture of LP a little while back? Everyone else has said what I noticed, but I also noticed that she's sitting ON the cantle! Who actually rides any discipline of English but sits ON the cantle instead of in the center of the saddle???

Seems many, many of us on here have had the experiences with the PP trained horses. There are only like 3 people who claim to have seen one of those horses who was actually sane. The rest of us have yet to see a PP horse who isn't totally nuts, and a little dangerous, from the methods that have been used on them. Says a lot about this "program," dontcha think?

Lancaster9
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:24 PM
Resiliancy, eh? :D Now THAT's a new term for my ailment (durn-near terminal hard-headedness). :D :D I give you kudos for your tact and diplomacy! LOL sylvia

lol, I only said that about resiliency 'cause I gave up on inserting ration into this discussion quite some time ago! I'm glad you're still standing. I have a horrible hunch though that this thread will never stop until we all say that Parelli people are all zombie cult-worshippers with no ability to think for themselves and no knowledge of true horsemanship. I'm beginning to reevaluate the statement that started this whole discussion..... :winkgrin:!! (That was a joke, really, before you all quote me to death) :D

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:28 PM
fourhmom, the big part of the problem is that while you and I and most of the people on this board KNOW that what PP is MARKETING is old-time methods, repackaged, the fact is that those methods rely on an UNDERSTANDING of horses that the newbie to horses does not have. Yes, the methods work, but the user of the methods has to be able to understand and react properly to the horse's responses. Most newbies to horses don't have this knowledge. The are usually, sigh, middle-aged women who buy a young unbroke A-rab, or a BLM horse or the like, rather than the tried-and-true broke-to-death schoolmaster (western or english) that they SHOULD buy. Then things get out of hand. What should they do? PP offers a "quick fix" - just watch my demo, BUY my DVD, BUY my carrot stick, and your problems will be solved! They end up playing games and never riding, when what they really need to do is work with a good traditional trainer in whatever discipline they want, and riding his/her schoolies or that broke horse that they should have bought in the first place.

People on this board who are more experienced horse people can, indeed do, use bits and pieces of PP's methods as a useful tool in their training program, but I, and I am sure a LOT of people REALLY get bent out of shape with LP and PP's dissing of dressage, and the attitude that many of their devotees pick up from them: PP is superior, if you don't do PP you are abusing your horse, if you don't do PP you are WRONG.

Bold-italics my own. That is a true statement as I understand his marketing lately. He said at one of his clinics... something to the effect that if you take this and that and the other and put them together you have basically nothing. You have to take his stuff and his alone to accomplish what he shows. And, while this is probably true since all his stuff builds on itself (like any good schooling system does), I don't particularly like that kind of attitude.





Just wanted to say, fourh mom, that I appreciate your posts on this thread.

i'd love to have a discussion about this. I've been in the program, I know and I see a lot of these posts and understand the poster's comments and points of view, but I also know from the program what it is trying to have people achieve, and how sorely they are missing the boat- thus the great disdain for all things PP.

Its tough. I've seen amazing horses & people in the program, and amazing horses & people out. I've seen bad in and bad out.

If you have questions about why PP ites try to do some of the things you see them do- ask me, I'll be more than happy to help. Now, whether they do them right or not...:lol:

Bold-italics my own.

Yes... this could be said of the practical utilization of ANYthing.... from cooking to driving a car to using a mop. If you don't sweep before you use the wet-mop you're going to have a muddy floor. :D Is it the mop's fault? The mop maker's fault? :D :D lol






The big deal is not with these people, or their horses. It's with the Ps and the fact that to keep their following they have to blind their people from the rest of the world. And in doing so they lie about other techniques. They are dishonest. THAT is quite an interesting deal.

i.e. they sell knock off Cool Aid.

Like I said. They have to spread lies to make themselves feel better...or to make money.

I would agree w/you on this... although we can't really put a motive on why they do what they do... we'd only be guessing. The only thing one can say w/any degree of correctness is that money makes people do crazy things.

Honestly though... wouldn't you have to say that, after reading some of these posts, there seems to be some who's big deal IS w/the these people and their horses... meaning the 'blind followers'. I have a hard time condemning anyone... let alone people who are trying the best they know for the horses they own and care for. It's not working for them in alot of instances... but they're not realizing that.

And there is where I have a hard time talking to people. :) I don't have the tact and diplomacy Lancaster9 has so alot of times I just blast in w/what I know has worked for me... w/utter disregard for the fact that this tactic usually backfires! lol People have to acknowledge they have a problem before they're willing to fix it. This acknowledgment does not usually come easily on the receiving end of a verbal fist. sylvia

Rachel L
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:29 PM
Like what? Please do tell!

I had a super spooky horse who bucked me off several times and broke some bones. She also was really behind the leg, she just wouldn't go forward, she preferred to buck instead.

After several years of parelli handling, I am now taking dressage lessons. We are very very green, I am just learning to put her together. My instructor, who I think considers herself very classical, and who was reluctant to teach me because of my parelli background, now loves my horse. Why? Because the mare has a nice go response, a nice whoa response, she keeps a nice even tempo, she doesn't spook, though she doesn't always "get" what is being asked she stays mentally focussed and relaxed while being ridden, and she doesn't have any bad habits left over from previous handling. This all came from parelli. In other words, if I understand anything about dressage, it is a good foundation for dressage.

I don't care how much you hate the parellis themselves, and I am truly happy for you that you learned how to get all these things from your horse another way. The part that bums me out is how I must be stupid and crappy and my horse must be unrideable and worthless because I DIDN'T learn those things from all the other instructors I have had, I had to learn them from parelli. But, the bright side is, another thing I learned from parelli is emotional fitness, both for the horse and the rider. Which means not giving a crap when people tell you what you do is stupid and worthless.

slc2
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:36 PM
i just don't think teaching your horse those simple basics means you HAVE to take lessons from parelli or that some parelli magic is what made that work out. you're talking about things any up-down instructor teaches children on their ponies. most likely, it was far more a matter of just you and your horse spending time together and YOU simply being a patient and kind person, and that could have happened anywhere.

no one is saying you are cra**** or that he can't ever do anything or whatever you suggested there. only that the HYPE around parelli, compared to what he does, is enormous, and that neither are what they claim to be, god on horseback, and superior to any other dressage trainer that ever lived.

i've seen parelli trained horses, parelli-student trained horses, and i've seen linda ride, and i am not impressed with ANY of it. from a technical standpoint, from safety, from any standpoint. YOU like him...fine. you're welcome to. just don't insist that I have to like him.

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:37 PM
...Seems many, many of us on here have had the experiences with the PP trained horses. There are only like 3 people who claim to have seen one of those horses who was actually sane. The rest of us have yet to see a PP horse who isn't totally nuts, and a little dangerous, from the methods that have been used on them. Says a lot about this "program," dontcha think?


:D No. Says alot about your own personal experience and those particular folks who did the training... but not his program. IMHO. lol

*smile* There are only like 3 people whom YOU KNOW who claim to have seen a sane PP-trained horse. Let's not get our own experiences confused w/the reality of a wide, wide world. sylvia


PS... I've got a TON of things to do today... gotta go feed the dog who's been waiting since I signed on this morning... *sigh* I'll check back in and read through what I'm sure will be 4 or 5 more pages added by tonight. :D

See ya!

MyReality
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:40 PM
I see nothing wrong in owning a horse and not riding it. As far as I can see, they are handled properly under the PP system. I also agree that many dressage riders are borderline abusive... for instance many accomplished trainers I know do not turn their horses out.

My short encounter with the equine industry, there are all these people tying to make a living. But then there are many many professionals that are not in dressage, whom I respect a great deal.

That being said, PP people really get on my nerves sometimes because ALL of them think MOST horses need rescuing and fixing. They are ALWAYS drawn to horses that need rescuing and fixing, and if they don't have one that need rescuing and fixing, they will convince you that it actually have 'issues'... or they try to rescue or fix the rider.

Basically what SLC said in her post.

And most of us who had been with horses for some years know, horses are not complicated things. You breed the right horse, buy the right horse, handle it train it ride it, the horse always turn out sound and sane... whatever your discipline. Horses just need to be treated as horses. You need experience, that's all.

And PP and followers really get on my nerves because they like to do dressage moves without understanding or buying into the dressage training theory. Yes PP can do piaffe, can he do medium trot, can he transition into collected trot, then extended trot, to passage? If he can do it, ok he is doing dressage. But he can't! Then why the hell do the 'let me show you how it is done'? what an insult.

Murphy's Mom
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:45 PM
I hate that people call BASIC HORSEMANSHIP SKILLS "Pat Parelli". No, its the bare bones basics that anyone that works with or around horses needs to know. Pecking orders as well.
I hate that people call anyone who uses a rope halter or a round pen a "Parelli-ite"! I use both, but have a background in dressage and eventing and I despise Parelli. I do ride with a couple of cowboys (real honest to goodness cowboys that chase cattle for a living) out here that practice good horsemanship techniques. They don't care what breed of horse you ride, what discipline you ride, what saddle you use, etc. One guy is learning how to jump, the other likes centered riding. Both read dressage books.

I saw the Parellis when they came to town about two years ago. Not only did they dressage bash, they lumped the majority of english riders into the "bad, abusive" category (mostly because of those "tight" reins). Even worse was when Josh Lyons was in town. As he was sitting on his horse with an open umbrella (used to make his horse spin faster "a la reining") he asked what "dressage" meant. Someone in the audience replied "dressage means training". Wrong! According to Josh Lyons "dressage means training the horse until it is useless." I walked out. So did several others.

lstevenson
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:53 PM
Because the mare has a nice go response, a nice whoa response, she keeps a nice even tempo, she doesn't spook, though she doesn't always "get" what is being asked she stays mentally focussed and relaxed while being ridden, and she doesn't have any bad habits left over from previous handling. This all came from parelli.




Any trainer in any discipline should be able to produce these "basics". Sounds like you have a nice horse. I think you should give more credit to your horse, and less to parelli. Most parelli horses I have seen have no basics whatsoever, except for maybe stop and go.

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:53 PM
i just don't think teaching your horse those simple basics means you HAVE to take lessons from parelli or that some parelli magic is what made that work out. you're talking about things any up-down instructor teaches children on their ponies. most likely, it was far more a matter of just you and your horse spending time together and YOU simply being a patient and kind person, and that could have happened anywhere.

no one is saying you are cra**** or that he can't ever do anything or whatever you suggested there. only that the HYPE around parelli, compared to what he does, is enormous, and that neither are what they claim to be, god on horseback, and superior to any other dressage trainer that ever lived.

i've seen parelli trained horses, parelli-student trained horses, and i've seen linda ride, and i am not impressed with ANY of it. from a technical standpoint, from safety, from any standpoint. YOU like him...fine. you're welcome to. just don't insist that I have to like him.



Oops, before I go....

There ARE folks on this board and in these posts who Do say his training methods are crap and the only result is a ruined horse. No one has said that (or would say a thing like that I should hope) about another poster or Rachel in particular (btw, you go, GIRL!!!!). They HAVE said stuff quite like that (and rather succinctly, too) about the Parellis though. Go back and read the first page.

Let's face it... not everyone has ACCESS to proper training. Horse-training books and boards like this one are quite possibly the only way alot of people have to learn about their horses. Those 'up/down' instructors are not out there on every street corner. The only instructors I know w/in a 50 mile radius of me are not geared toward helping the average trail rider handle and ride his/her horse on a daily basis. While both are good trainers in their own right... both are basically clueless when it comes to riding in the woods w/your horse on a regular basis.

If a person can understand HOW a horse learns then they have the TOOLS they need to acheive their own idea of what they want from their horse. :) It doesn't have to match what everyone else's ideas are...

I happen to have my horses at my own house and don't have to deal w/what so many of you on this board deal with... namely -- boarding barn situations and all the politics that come with it. :)

I think we do need to remember that we're coming from diffeent perspectives as regards our horse managment, and while most all horses learn the same way, not all owners have the same background. sylvia


BYE FOR REAL THIS TIME.............. :D

magnolia73
Aug. 16, 2007, 01:58 PM
They are ALWAYS drawn to horses that need rescuing and fixing, and if they don't have one that need rescuing and fixing, they will convince you that it actually have 'issues'... or they try to rescue or fix the rider.


That's what I don't get. I always had nice horses that stayed nice. Not award winning quality- but safe and friendly to ride and handle. Never paid over $3500 for a horse. Since selling my last childhorse horse, I've probably ridden 30 horses.... all safe and friendly. Maybe not the most responsive or maybe a bit hot, with an issue here or there. But all quite suitable for a beginner to learn on in a decent program.

WTF is it with all these people buying apparently unsafe horses? Seriously- I've seen maybe 3. One got retrained quickly and was fine on the ground at least. One was a stallion and a pro's horse anyways. One was just an asshat who probably needed to be either put down or put in a pasture.

All horses will have issues, just like people.

Schune
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:01 PM
A recollection from a long time ago:

Scenario - at boarding barn talking with fellow boarder, a.k.a. Parelli-ite, about new cute horse she just bought.

Me: "He's so cute. What are you doing with him?"
Her: "He's trained in Parelli."
Me: "Oh, cool. What's he like?"
Her: "Like?"
Me: "When you ride him. Was he nice when you tried him?"
Her: "Oh, no, we are so not ready for that yet. But we'll get there eventually."

So, she bought an adult horse without riding it, with the intention of riding him 'eventually.' :D She was a nice lady otherwise.

Rachel L
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:13 PM
Any trainer in any discipline should be able to produce these "basics". Sounds like you have a nice horse. I think you should give more credit to your horse, and less to parelli. Most parelli horses I have seen have no basics whatsoever, except for maybe stop and go.

Thank you, I think she's quite nice. I also recall how disgusting she was when I got her and how hard it was to get her to where she is now. I have heard comments like yours before: since I "do" parelli and I have a nice horse, it must be that either she came to me as a nice horse or she was just really really easy to train.

It is a good training system. A lot of people, perhaps even a majority, do it poorly.

swgarasu
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:19 PM
The thing that bugs me the most,is 'the hide your hinney' ( that's what these freaks call it) thing,where they teach the horse to always face you. Well what a pita when you'r trying to,lets say,adjust the sidereins,tighten the girth.... hell anything where you need to go to the horse's side...particularly MOUNTING...oh yeah, I forgot, their followers never actually ride their horses.:no:
For the love of God,folks,forget the stupid '7 games' and get a real trainer!

Had a horse that did this too, and it was SUCH a pain- made lunging a bear too because I wanted horsie to move forward, AWAY from me (can't get a horse forward unless you start from the behind), but horsie thought it was supposed to stop and face me...

TBROCKS
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:23 PM
I hate that people call anyone who uses a rope halter or a round pen a "Parelli-ite"! I use both, but have a background in dressage and eventing and I despise Parelli. I do ride with a couple of cowboys (real honest to goodness cowboys that chase cattle for a living) out here that practice good horsemanship techniques. They don't care what breed of horse you ride, what discipline you ride, what saddle you use, etc. One guy is learning how to jump, the other likes centered riding. Both read dressage books.

I saw the Parellis when they came to town about two years ago. Not only did they dressage bash, they lumped the majority of english riders into the "bad, abusive" category (mostly because of those "tight" reins). Even worse was when Josh Lyons was in town. As he was sitting on his horse with an open umbrella (used to make his horse spin faster "a la reining") he asked what "dressage" meant. Someone in the audience replied "dressage means training". Wrong! According to Josh Lyons "dressage means training the horse until it is useless." I walked out. So did several others.

Speaking of English, although they bash the discipline, the Parellis now sell an English saddle and their spin on it is to have the saddle positioned much further back on the horse than any normal person would ever put it, and the gullet is very very very wide.

Wild Oaks Farm
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:26 PM
Well...

We have a Parelli expert in the family. She rode my mom's gentle old horse, who proceeded to "run away" with her at the walk :lol::lol: (he got tired of her and just decided that he was going to walk home). That is what kind of a rider she is...she let the horse walk home with her.

Anyway, she went out and bought a three year old, who is a gentle enough horse. After a couple of months she could no longer ride him since he would not let her get on :rolleyes:. She sent him to the Parelli trainer, who actually did ride the horse after a few months. She came back to me and said that her trainer rides the horse bareback and can back her horse up with no saddle or bridle just by shaking her feet and she can't wait to be able to do that on him. :confused::confused::confused: Yeah, because that's an important thing for horses to know!

Anyway, she couldn't ride the first horse but she went out and bought another. A black 2 year old TWH, because, she "always wanted a black horse" and thinks that she'll have a better relationship with a horse that she got as a baby.

OK, I guess this can't be blamed on Parelli, but her Parelli trainer should have been telling her to buy an OLD, GENTLE horse or, even better, to TAKE RIDING LESSONS!!!

STF
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:31 PM
Well...

We have a Parelli expert in the family. She rode my mom's gentle old horse, who proceeded to "run away" with her at the walk :lol::lol: (he got tired of her and just decided that he was going to walk home). That is what kind of a rider she is...she let the horse walk home with her.


LMAO

Sandy M
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:38 PM
I hate that people call anyone who uses a rope halter or a round pen a "Parelli-ite"! I use both, but have a background in dressage and eventing and I despise Parelli.

My newbie is wearing a rope halter because he's only 3, and has slightly over 60 days under saddle. It does give a little more control than a flat nylon or leather halter when he is led or tied. (He's pushing 16.1 at Juuuuust 3yrs.4mos.) To my knowledge, he has no tying problems, and his ground manners so far are fairly good, but he hasn't "earned" a leather halter yet. The trainer who started him for me did minimal round pen work with him. (didn't need it, she felt). But I'll be &)*() if whole bunches of people don't see me leading him in that *&)&(* rope halter and assumie I must be a Parellit-ite. Cracks me up. (I intend to use him for dressage/trail riding, and, if i feel like it, I'll start him over fences, just for the variety.)

myhorsefaith
Aug. 16, 2007, 02:40 PM
OK, I guess this can't be blamed on Parelli, but her Parelli trainer should have been telling her to buy an OLD, GENTLE horse or, even better, to TAKE RIDING LESSONS!!!

In my experience, I've seen people get in too deep with the horse they purchased, at which point they turn to the PP program than I have seen the other way around. Actually, I can't think of anyone who had been doing "parelli" and then went out and purchased a green horse. Just my experience, but I am sure there are those people out there.

And I've seen some local Parelli Instructors tell people in clinics that they either need to step up the savvy (and quickly) or get a better horse.

And some people are just hopeless no matter what horse they have or type training they attempt. :lol:

Edited to add: I've also heard these same instructors to tell people flat out to go through the program with the easiest horse they have. Don't pick the wild hare. The training program isn't about the horse, its about training the person. But usually, IMO, its already too late and the easiest horse the person has IS the wild hare. heheheh

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 16, 2007, 03:22 PM
This drives me nuts! I have a hard enough time competing with horses I CAN ride let alone trying to own one I have to constantly send out to be fixed and am scared of. I have had several babys that we planned from the very begining to be sent out. We sent them to a trainer that trail rides and does some lateral mostly for their first 3-6 mos. Then I let them tell me if the horse is too much for me (I can already tell in lessons) and then we make a decision. People who barely ride and arn't willing to get 6 mos or more training have no business buying babys over and over that they cant handle I dont care how many P cds they have. Smart horsemanship is finding a good friend or trainer with sense that will tell you how bad you truly are and how forgiving your next horse needs to be. LOL

GRRR to those who keep getting over horsed and then complaining about it and doing way too much round pen work (like 3 yrs) until the horse is really ruined.

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 03:43 PM
In my experience, I've seen people get in too deep with the horse they purchased, at which point they turn to the PP program, then I have seen the other way around. Actually, I can't think of anyone who had been doing "parelli" and then went out and purchased a green horse. Just my experience, but I am sure there are those people out there.

And I've seen some local Parelli Instructors tell people in clinics that they either need to step up the savvy (and quickly) or get a better horse.

And some people are just hopeless no matter what horse they have or type training they attempt. :lol:

Edited to add: I've also heard these same instructors to tell people flat out to go through the program with the easiest horse they have. Don't pick the wild hare. The training program isn't about the horse, its about training the person. But usually, IMO, its already too late and the easiest horse the person has IS the wild hare. heheheh

Man alive, Myhorsefaith... where have you been for all these other natural train-ing-wrecks? LOL It is - or should be - simple common sense to come to this conclusion you've so eloquently posted here (my bold italics).

I am acutally one of those Parelli-first, green-horse-second folks. Although it was my first purchase of a broke (use the term lightly here) horse which led me to purchase Pat's first book.




This drives me nuts! I have a hard enough time competing with horses I CAN ride let alone trying to own one I have to constantly send out to be fixed and am scared of. I have had several babys that we planned from the very begining to be sent out. We sent them to a trainer that trail rides and does some lateral mostly for their first 3-6 mos. Then I let them tell me if the horse is too much for me (I can already tell in lessons) and then we make a decision. People who barely ride and arn't willing to get 6 mos or more training have no business buying babys over and over that they cant handle I dont care how many P cds they have. Smart horsemanship is finding a good friend or trainer with sense that will tell you how bad you truly are and how forgiving your next horse needs to be. LOL

GRRR to those who keep getting over horsed and then complaining about it and doing way too much round pen work (like 3 yrs) until the horse is really ruined.


I feel you posted a very valid viewpoint here, Nomiomi.






Wild Oaks Farm? :D That poor lady you posted about probably wouldn't succeed no matter WHAT type training program she entered. To prove my point all you need to do is a COTH search w/the key words "student lesson instructor client...etc". :D Those types are in EVERY training program, not just Parelli. sylvia

hitchinmygetalong
Aug. 16, 2007, 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchinmygetalong http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2628910#post2628910)
Exactly how does one become an "associate professor of Parelli Natural Horse.Man.Ship", anyway?


Ahem. It's 'Associate Parelli Professional'. I have no idea what it means but as a former - and future - professor, I feel the need to make that distinction! ;)

Whoops! I read something wrong! Apologies! :)

Red Barn
Aug. 16, 2007, 03:49 PM
.

It is a good training system. A lot of people, perhaps even a majority, do it poorly.

I hear Parelli People say this all the time, as if it excused the P's somehow. But I don't think that makes a whole lot of sense. Surely any system with an overwhelming failure rate is flawed in some really big way?

I mean, what would you think of a driving school if 97% of their students crashed in the first month? Or a medical school who's graduates killed off 88%of their patients?

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 16, 2007, 03:54 PM
I hear Parelli People say this all the time, as if it excused the P's somehow. But I don't think that makes a whole lot of sense. Surely any system with an overwhelming failure rate is flawed in some really big way?

I mean, what would you think of a driving school if 97% of their students crashed in the first month? Or a medical school who's graduates killed off 88%of their patients?



OUCH! PP need some water for that burn!

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 04:03 PM
I hear Parelli People say this all the time, as if it excused the P's somehow. But I don't think that makes a whole lot of sense. Surely any system with an overwhelming failure rate is flawed in some really big way?

I mean, what would you think of a driving school if 97% of their students crashed in the first month? Or a medical school who's graduates killed off 88%of their patients?



My first thought was, "Man, I shore would hope there's another school out there teaching that stuff." My next thought was, "Hmmm, where did this person get those statistics?"


I would not call what I came away with an 'overwhelming failure'. I would call what I see done in the name of horsemanship at our local shows an overwhelming failure of the horse world in general to educate folks about what a horse really is and how they really think. You would be surprised (or maybe not) at how many folks do not realize a horse is a prey animal. How many HORSE folks, that is. If nothing else Parelli and these natural horse training clinicians are teaching that little tid-bit correctly. sylvia

Anselcat
Aug. 16, 2007, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=slc2;2629582]i just don't think teaching your horse those simple basics means you HAVE to take lessons from parelli or that some parelli magic is what made that work out. you're talking about things any up-down instructor teaches children on their ponies. most likely, it was far more a matter of just you and your horse spending time together and YOU simply being a patient and kind person, and that could have happened anywhere.QUOTE]

I agree with your first sentence ... you don't HAVE to go the Parelli route to learn the basics of good horsemanship. But I disagree with your second sentence, because in my experience most up-down instructors do not teach horsemanship or good ground skills. If you find one who teaches, from the very beginning, feel, timing and release, and the nature of the horse you have found a gem!

I started as a middle-aged rider. There were lots of places for riding lessons, none of which taught horsemanship beyond tacking up and getting on. My first horse (sold to me by the trainer at the lesson barn) was not suitable ... but I was pushed to get this horse because I would have "grown out of" anything else. And yeah, I was a stupid newbie and she was the trainer. (so i guess I do fit the stereotypical Parelli Profile -- but I ride and compete my horse, so maybe not!)

Parelli actually does emphasize simply spending time with your horse and observing horses in general. Also emphasizes that it takes time, and there are no quick fixes.

Just my opinion and observations!

arena run
Aug. 16, 2007, 04:13 PM
Tell me it ain't true... this natural train-ing-wreck is coming back from the edge of derailment? Common sense, objectivitiy, cool heads and a general sense of COTH community are prevailing??? Are we actually going to be able to 'agree to disagree' about something here? (!!)

Cool.


sylvia

Red Barn
Aug. 16, 2007, 04:15 PM
I would not call what I came away with an 'overwhelming failure'.

Right. So you're one of the lucky 3% who didn't crash. (And I'm glad, because you really do sound like a nice woman.)

But your good fortune probably isn't much consolation to all those other nice people lying around in body casts, now is it?

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 16, 2007, 04:16 PM
A horse is only as good as his rider! I think since PP isnt actually riding some of the beasts discussed here that it falls back onto the actual rider and trust me I have met many people like the ones discribed on here who have never had an ounce of PP training they just came upon the sillyness and weird ideas on their own.

purplnurpl
Aug. 16, 2007, 04:23 PM
Well whatever. But I tell you guys, I have been thinking really hard about this Parelli stuff all day.

Tonight I am going to have an open mind and I'm go try to 'understand' the Parelli way. So when I sit in the dirt while I lunge my horse do I sit Indian Style? Or in a Yoga position? How do I pivot? Can I just hold my arm up in the air and let the rope go around that way? Or do I need to be facing my horse at all times?

A sit and spin would be handy!

Humph. Maybe I should buy his book 1st, are there illustrations?