I did not know P. Parelli publicly insulted other disciplines...

[hoslaw]

I hate that people call BASIC HORSEMANSHIP SKILLS "Pat Parelli". No, its the bare bones basics that anyone that works with or around horses needs to know. Pecking orders as well.

I do hope people will be more careful hiring Parelli graduates (is that what they call themselves?) A good friend of mine hired one of these NH to handle a young, full of himself, intact horse on the ground. He had stellar breeding and was a dynamite mover. He also was being naughty as the "whole hes" can be until they learn better. His game was rearing. Not striking, just "I like the view from up here." Well, she (the NH trainer) came up with some weird pully of ropes and he snapped his neck. This goregous animal was dead before he hit the ground.

NH is fine if you want to play games with and bond with your horse. But, please, it is not the way to start or retrain young horses.

[dutchmike]

And those stories are really well hidden away

[SillyHorse]

Well, she (the NH trainer) came up with some weird pully of ropes and he snapped his neck. This goregous animal was dead before he hit the ground.
How awful for your friend. :(

[dalpal]

Well, since this thread has come back up......did anyone watch the episode where Pat tells his followers that "there are people out there wanting to take your horses away from you, folks"...but then went on to say that Peta gives his methods 2 thumbs up and that they are okay as long as it's done his way. My husband was even shaking his head on that one.

[Sargentmajor]

I've been lurking for some time now and frankly this is the only thread that has been personal enough for me to actually register and say HOWDY! My horse has been trained ...um...Parelli. Not by me. And not by the person I got him from. I have spent the last 2.5 years UNDOING the nonsense that went on daily. What were some of these nonsense things, you ask? First, you couldn't catch him, or let me rephrase...it took a very long time to catch him. He was so head shy that it would take me at least 20 minutes to bridle that horse and I had to take the bridle APART to do it. God forbid that you talked with your hands anywhere near or on him...if you raised your right hand while mounted, he was sideways so fast to the left you'd think he was on skates. He backed away from me. Constantly. No matter what I was doing. Drove me NUTS! He was constantly inverted and hollow, and spooked at everything. Now, he is so much more calm, I can touch anywhere on his face, ears, I can catch him with no problems. So, My question is, If Parelli is supposed to create such a bond between horse and human and the trainers are so gifted and can read a horse so well, then why couldn't this person that trained my horse "read" that these methods were CLEARLY not working with him and perhaps something else should have been tried. I posted this exact thing on another forum and the overwhelming response from pro-Parelliers (is that a word?) was "then the trainer wasn't doing it right". Ok, so let me understand this...If it works, yay for parelli methods, and if it doesn't, they were doing it wrong? IMO, this is why alot of people don't like what Parelli stands for.
Oh and hello to everyone by the way!:winkgrin: And just to keep it fair, I have used and do use other NH methods with him, just like I use some tradional training methods too. I agree 100% that one needs to sift through methods and information and use what works for you...just common sense really.

[Red Barn]

Welcome aboard, Sargent!

I joined COTH because of Pat Parelli, too.

One day, while doing some online research to try and figure out the motivations of my crazy local PPers, I Googled "Parelli + Fraud." Up popped a thread on COTH, and I was instantly hooked!

Its nice to know that there are still a few rational people left in the world.

[LMH]

Such a shame there has been these experiences. I have witnessed first hand the sad carrot stick swingers...however...

With my horses, my personal experience with what Parelli teaches has had nothing but outstanding results.

Again, this is me, my understanding and my horses.

Sorry to burst all those Parelli is for beginner fat middle aged women that don't ride bubbles.

[Bluey]

Such a shame there has been these experiences. I have witnessed first hand the sad carrot stick swingers...however...

With my horses, my personal experience with what Parelli teaches has had nothing but outstanding results.

Again, this is me, my understanding and my horses.

Sorry to burst all those Parelli is for beginner fat middle aged women that don't ride bubbles.

My short experience with the PP system is that, like anything else, it depends on the person training.
Some people will not catch on what horses are all about and how to communicate with them, no matter who is teaching them.

I will say that in a land where the jerk and spur method is standard for the majority of the horse owning public, seen in the many, many playdays, ropings and pennings every weekend, ANY method is better than none.
In this vacuum, PP has been helpful, I would say, having people thinking about other than getting on and "getting 'er done, by gosh and by golly".

Why PP and by default other clinicians? Because we as instructors are failing so many by not having set standards and certification, so people would have some idea that there is more to riding that climbing on a horse and kicking to go.

The PP and others have been working in a vaccum, unlike in Europe, where there are miminum standards to teaching to ride and managing stables.

If we want the freedom of doing absolutely what we want to do and don't provide standards, anyone, including charlatans with "new" ways will have the green light with the public.

We just hope those that take it in their hands to instruct are sensible and know what they are doing, since no one is watching over their shoulders.

As far as a "Parelli trained horse being a nut", we don't know if the horses were nuts before they tried PP, or if they are so becausse of the nut that tried PP with them.
The reality is that there are also many well trained horses that "did PP".
We only notice the ones that flunked PP training and we should be fair and say many horses flunk ANY training.

I was training horses many years before PP and we had nuts then too.;)

[stolensilver]

A technique, any technique, is only as good as the person using it. Don't blame the tools. Parelli is just the same. Done well, by people who really understand what they are doing and have taken the time to learn the technique completely get amazing results. Just like any riding technique. Done badly you get trainwrecks. It's the same with any skill not limited to NH techniques.

A truth about learning is that a person who has a little knowledge and repeats what they know many times gains in confidence but not in competence. That applys to many of the self taught experts with Parelli, dressage, holistic healing, plumbing, *insert word of your choice*.

This thread isn't really about whether Pat Parelli's methods work or not. It is about not understanding that most humans don't like moving out of their comfort zone. They like to learn a little and then repeat what little they know while not increasing their knowledge. They then mistake repetition for increasing expertise. Sad but universally true.

It isn't the fault of the technique or the tools, just the person using them who has not taken the time and effort to learn how to use them properly.

[egontoast]

Well that's what is wrong with these franchises. The idea of selling a system and stamping it with the name of some trainer is a great marketing idea but otherwise worse than useless.

It would be like saying that a horse trained by someone who trained with Balkenhol is a Balkenhol trained horse. It's not, and it still would not be a Balkenhol trained horse if the trainer was a working student of Balkenhol, took regular clinics and watched lots of Balkenhol dvds and bought the Blakenhol comfort bridle.

Besides, how many of the people who give Parelli clinics have actually 'trained' with Parelli (not that it would make horses trained by them Parelli trained)?

It doesn't work this way.

[stolensilver]

General agreement breaking out on a Parelli thread? Is that a first? ;-)

Love the Balkenhol analogy. Soooo true!

[Bluey]

Well that's what is wrong with these franchises. The idea of selling a system and stamping it with the name of some trainer is a great marketing idea but otherwise worse than useless.

It would be like saying that a horse trained by someone who trained with Balkenhol is a Balkenhol trained horse. It's not, and it still would not be a Balkenhol trained horse if the trainer was a working student of Balkenhol, took regular clinics and watched lots of Balkenhol dvds and bought the Blakenhol comfort bridle.

Besides, how many of the people who give Parelli clinics have actually 'trained' with Parelli (not that it would make horses trained by them Parelli trained)?

It doesn't work this way.

Answering that one question, people certified by PP are trained by him.
They pay big money for the privilege, have to go get recertified every year, spending several weeks training in their centers at a significant cost.
I know some that started thru those programs and had to drop out, because they could not make enough for that franchise, after the initial certification, to make up for the increased time and money they put into it.

There are some certified people out there that have not been in the system that long, so are really beginner level instructors and others that started thru that system and now are clinicians on their own, not as PP certified ones.

Remember, PP doesn't conduct clinics, only goes on the road with their demostrations.
The clinics are given, at the different levels, by his certified instructors.
As with any other program, there are levels of proficiency in their instructors also.

[slc2]

If it's such a great system, how come so many people get it wrong?

[LMH]

Great post Bluey.

slc2 if we watched the majority of the horse owners in any discipline anywhere in the US, couldn't we ask the same question?

I see LOTS of divas that don't get it right, lots of hunter riders that don't get it right and lots of jumpers that don't get it right.

Does that mean these training concepts are flawed as well?

[egontoast]

people certified by PP are trained by him.


It still doesn't wash. The training is only as good as the individual trainer, no matter who trained him/her , remember? Don't blame the tools and so on?

[slc2]

No, actually, you can't ask the same questions, because there is no other discipline in the Unites States that would plant the idea in someone's brain to rig up a set of ropes that would snap a young horse's neck!:mad::mad::mad:

[Bluey]

No, actually, you can't ask the same questions, because there is no other discipline in the Unites States that would plant the idea in someone's brain to rig up a set of ropes that would snap a young horse's neck!:mad::mad::mad:

I think that you may have that wrong as a PP technique.:confused:
I would say that the rope trussing was the person's idea, not from PP, because I have never seen or heard of them using ropes for any other than longing or whatever they call that they do.

The local fellow that did PP for a while used to tell us they don't even believe in roping a horse that is hard to catch, as he had been doing all his life in ranches, that they work with the horse until they can approach it.

I think, but don't quote me, that they believe in doing much what they call the natural way, without touching the horse, or something like that.
Rare than someone would call tying a horse down to the point of "snap a young horse's neck" a PP thing.:no:

Remember, accidents with horses happen so easily...

[SerenaGinger]

If it's such a great system, how come so many people get it wrong?

BINGO!


http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/faq.html#do

How Do I Help a Cult Member? - The Do's and Don'ts
The Do's

*

DO try to keep in regular contact via mail or telephone even if there is little response.
*

DO express sincere love for the cult member at every available opportunity.
*

DO keep a diary of comments, attitudes and events associated with his/her life in the cult.
*

DO always welcome the cult member back into the family home no matter what is said.
*

DO keep copies of all written correspondence from you and the individual.
*

DO record all the names, addresses and phone numbers of people linked with the cult.
*

DO try to bite your tongue if the cult member makes unkind comments.
*

DO read all of the recommended books relating to cults and mind control, as well as reading other information on the cult in question.
*

DO seek help and information from organisations specialising in counter-cult work. We care about you and your individual situation.


The Don'ts

*

DO NOT rush into adopting a potential solution before carefully researching the cult problem.
*

DO NOT say:"You are in a cult; you are brainwashed".
*

DO NOT give money to the member of the group.
*

DO NOT feel guilty. This is not a problem caused by families.
*

DO NOT act in an angry or hostile manner towards the cult member.
*

DO NOT feel alone. It happens to thousands of families every year.
*

DO NOT underestimate the control the cult has over a member.
*

DO NOT antagonise the cult member by ridiculing his/her beliefs.
*

DO NOT be judgemental or confrontational towards the cult member.
*

DO NOT antagonise any of the cult's leadership or members.
*

DO NOT be persuaded by a cult 'specialist' to pay large sums of money without verifying his/her qualifications.
*

DO NOT give up hope of success in helping your family member to leave the group no matter how long the involvement has already been
*

DO NOT neglect yourself or other family members.

(or your horses!)

[Quin]

Quin and DGRH think the last few posts, but especially the last, were brilliant.

And we will not charge any money for our opinion.

[Bluey]

PP tells how to work with pull back horses by tying them with the head up to something very high where the rope is rapped around or through a pulley and hanging off the rope on the other side is a heavy bucket of rocks. That way when the horse freaks at the rocks and pulls back he will pull and not have a solution until it goes forward (vigorous use of the stick behind the rump helps make it go forward) that in theory makes the bucket go back to the ground and the horse thinks he solved his problem.

There's a video floating around among some ex-pp students who frequent BB or RH clinics of a horse that wouldn't load and after a couple of hours, PP ropes it by the neck, ties it to his horse's saddle and keeps trying to laod it. never gets the horse in and its left raw and skinless on the face and neck. These are not isolated instances from what I hear.

And wathc the Nat'l Geographic video where he ropes the mustang ot catch her after she's already nearly flipped over the round pen panels they corralled them in. I'll admit, hard wild horse, but can't it just be left wild? what is there to prove?

and yes, they lay horses down by using ropes. Look at the videos and at demos he has out where they tie the rope to a foreleg on the opposite side, hold it up and pass the rope over the horse's back and pull until it goes down.

WOW! I didn't know all that. Our friend left that out, from the many certification seminars he went to, before he quit them.;)

We used to start many feral horses and we didn't have them bouncing off round pen walls or panels.:eek:
They came to us packed as sardines in an open truck and we reached over them and put halters with a dragging leadrope and leather neck collars on them.
We tied them by the neck collars, but so short to the wall that they could not hardly fight being tied, while we washed and touched them all over.
We didn't have a round pen, but longed them. We used the water to desensitize them.
We had them longing, saddled and with me as test pilot, riding most within the hour or so of starting to work with them, without fireworks.

Within a few days, we didn't have to longe them any more, just worked with them on the ground some, got the saddle on and a leg up and, with a very little jigging around, we were off and in a few more days we were riding out in the trails with a group of older horses.
I only remember three horses that acted up, from some 45 we started.
The others went on to be ridden without real objections.

No reason to run a horse around so bad as to run it into panels to gentle it, I don't think.

[RHdobes563]

I will say that in a land where the jerk and spur method is standard for the majority of the horse owning public, seen in the many, many playdays, ropings and pennings every weekend...

So, are THESE the #1 "horse" people and disciplines that the Pepperonis "diss" in their clinics?

[Bluey]

So, are THESE the #1 "horse" people and disciplines that the Pepperonis "diss" in their clinics?


Not that I have heard. What I have heard PP and Linda is make fun of english saddle riders and Linda especially of dressage riders.
They do it to make fun and joke, like a comedian with a spiel.
I find it in bad taste and shrugged some of it off to ignorance.
Just like some, say, dressage rider may make fun of the horn in western saddles, saying that all western riders have to neck rein because they need the other hand to hold onto the horn.;)

[dutchmike]

Let them make fun as much as they like. Let them learn how to really ride and then they can talk to me. All those PP Voodoo tricks etc just don't threaten me at all:D. I mean lets be honest anyone can learn tricks in no time but to ride properly that takes years and years of practice and we keep on learning untill the day we die

[LMH]

No, actually, you can't ask the same questions, because there is no other discipline in the Unites States that would plant the idea in someone's brain to rig up a set of ropes that would snap a young horse's neck!:mad::mad::mad:

i am not familiar with this in any the parelli material-not saying it isn't true or wasn't true...just saying it is not in any of the current materials.

So...was there some task listed as How to Snap a Young Horse's neck? Or did someone come up with some idea and it didn't work?

[slc2]

I'm not saying the teaching materials have a chapter on how to snap a horse's neck, though they might as well. Because once you watch Patty ride a horse into a trailer, or jump a weanling, or do any one of a number of other stupid things, you would be well equipped, in fact, more than adequately equipped to look at a young horse rearing and say, 'Just Gimme a rope, I can fix it!'

For me, it isn't just that the logic and the methodology and the teaching is flawed technically, or that so many people don't get it, that they say they are doing dressage better than the top people in the world when they're doing it WRONG, it's also that they give people ideas to do very, very stupid stuff. Not just stupid. dangerous.

No tbey don't say 'snap this horse's neck', but they do stupid stuff and they don't give people any sort of safe framework to work in. Pat is a grandstander, not a riding instructor, or whatever else he claims to be.

[Red Barn]

And they do seem to use an awful lot of unnecessary ropes.

I once watched a woman teaching a yearling filly to pick up her foot with a rope wrapped around the horse's body, and then around the pastern. . . . yikes. Seemed like serious over-kill to me, and potentially quite dangerous, too.

Why not just pick up her foot in a straightforward manner, like a normal person would? I realize now that goofy stuff like this fits right in with the whole "make simple things really complicated" philosophy that charlatans the world over so adore.

Impresses the clueless, and makes the initiate look VERY special.

[slc2]

I think I need to add to Pat Parelli's list of things I don't like, that nothing he does is original, either. Nothing. Because his methods actually look surprisingly like the methods of the guy who used to stop by each year with a stock trailer jammed with cheap horses from Mexico, our barn was his last stop before the slaughterhouse. All the stuff, in fact, that these 'star trainers' are doing, is very, very familiar to me, and not because it's good. It's just old rough-house stuff. That it appeals to anyone with any intelligence, that anyone falls for the complicated explanation of why to do these things, or thinks this is some sort of better way to handle horses, is just a shining example of how very, very clever marketing can be.

[dalpal]

If it's such a great system, how come so many people get it wrong?

Agree, because as I said many pages ago, I had a Parelli CERTIFIED instructor work with my young horse many years ago and she ran into problems, had no clue how to solve them.

Here's the difference between Parelli and the German Schoolmasters. Pat will take as many 10K payments as he can get....he does MASSIVE seminars on his farm...and all these people come off with Parelli cerification, then go back and pay more money for the next level of certification. German Schoolmasters don't teach to the masses, they take a few hard working students and work their butts off for a year or more.not a few weeks.

Even my husband was snickering when Patt said..."You know folks, there are people out there trying to take your horses away from you." OH, but wait...PETA has gone to Parelli's clinics and they LIKE what they see!!! So his message is to his followers at the seminar in PA...as long as you do it my way, PETA won't be knocking on your door and loading your horse up in a PETA trailer, and driving down the driveway with your horse....come on!!!! Can't tell me that this wasn't a tatic to keep people in the Parelli system.

It actually reminds me of a pyramid scheme.

[MyReality]

anybody went to those 'natural dressage' clinics? I might be going to one to see what it is about.

PP shows strokes of a great master marketer. It makes me think perhaps dressage needs to modernize its 'presentation' so that it is less misunderstood.

For instance, PP calls its whip 'carrot stick'. Think about it, it is a hard stick with a flexible part... it hurts much more than your regular dressage whip. It is like riding with an oversized lunge whip all the time. My horse has so much respect for the carrot stick, he responds to other people using the carrot stick in the same arena.

Why do you think the horse respects it so much? Of course its not because of some magical communication, But because its application is handy, smooth and quick and effective and it has reach, it has substance... which is key to 'pressure/release' type education to horses.

But for some reason, carrot stick is a carrot stick, whip is a 'mean whip'. Whip is bad. Stick is not, cause it's 'carrotized'. Think about it, there is no difference between me carrying a whip and have it lay across my thigh quietly, versus a PP style rider carrying the stick on her shoulder. It's based on the same 'pressure/release' principle. But for some reason, the carrot stick means "better communication".

When I was in Portugal, we use sticks from tree, literally... it's not 'processed' at all. Just rip it off a tree, remove the leaves. I thought wow these people don't want to hurt their horses, cuz the branch just look so fragile and harmless. Little do I know... it actually stings WAY more than my regular dressage whip... which is loud but does not really hurt that much.

Same thing with spurs. My riding instructor there wear these gigantic spurs. I thought these horses couldn't be that sensitive. Little do I know... they are super sensitive horses, the horses are more reactive with my legs than my coach using the "bad spurs"... because my legs are that much less coordinated.

Perhaps the message is, we need to work on packaging dressage better... and communicating to new riders better, make it easier to understand and do. Make it sound more like a polished product, instead of a dark quasi science that nobody ever 'gets'.

[slc2]

every 'media riding' trainer has the same problem. selling themselves. there are two ways to be a trainer. to produce results - well trained horses, well trained, safe students, competition results, and most of all happy, safe, healthy horses and riders with longevity.

the other way is by making all sorts of books and videos and to talk talk talk talk talk, to COVER UP the fact that there are no well trained horses and well trained safe students, or that those that DO occur, are basically surprising coincidences and nothing more.

the people grandstanding on dressage in the media, beating their chests and screaming that they are 'more classical', or that they are combining it with other types of riding to produce some sort of 'universal mishmash', most of the people most strongly motivated to write books about it understand it so little, or want so badly to market themselves as something new and clever, OR BOTH, that they present it either as totally stripped of its fundamentals so that it is some sort of series of stupid pet tricks, or as extremely complicated and difficult to understand. they MAKE it esoteric - it's not.

years ago carol grant was teaching a clinic and i chuckled as a gal raised her hand and asked carol to 'define the term, losgelasenheit'.

carol chuckled and only said, 'Dressage is so complicated, only horses can understand it'. she added some more comments afterwards, the audience greeted the first statement with stony silence, LOL. i was stuffing a sock in my mouth so i didn't guffaw too loud.

people WANT it to be either one of two things. A mish mash of every other riding style that 'any one can do quick and easy with no effort', OR, depending on their personality complicated, so complicated it MUST be really classical, LOL, these people WANT it to be a big deal because that flatters their egoes - that's why they buy those books, and that's why so many people make it seem so complex.

you don't need any fancy words, and as an old trainer once said, 'YOU ARE SITTING ON SOME LIVESTOCK, YOU KNOW', LOL. Man i loved that.

[Apples]

Your missing the point!!!!!
The point is, those jerkwads are leading people who have no idea of our sport to think its done in that manner. He did not go to explain (nor do they at any other time) the way (it) should be done. Are you talking about the people on this board talking about NH? Or Parelli taking about dressage?

[STF]

Im talking about Parelli's and their lack of true knowledge of our sport.
Linda goes around shooting her mouth off from her very few yrs of unsucessful dressage "training" (you know it only takes a few yrs to become a master at this sport dontcha!! :) ) and trashes the entire sport to hundreds that she preaches to in her cult. Sad part is most of the PP people are beginners with very, very limited knowledge of horses and they take the ParelliWord as truth.
Far from the truth, far from the facts.
Dressage IS the rehabilitation sport that keeps the horses and riders in correct shape for the long term, not the opposite of what their petty little brains spout at the clan meetings.

[STF]

Let them make fun as much as they like. Let them learn how to really ride and then they can talk to me. All those PP Voodoo tricks etc just don't threaten me at all:D. I mean lets be honest anyone can learn tricks in no time but to ride properly that takes years and years of practice and we keep on learning untill the day we die


My dear Mike, you need to go and watch one of their demo's! You'd die laughing!!! If you do go, take a lot to drink to dumb your mind!!! Mostly if MissDressgeMasterParelli gets on her rant of how horrible dressage is for the horse and rider, etc.
She said or wrote somewhere that her arms where huge from "dressage riding"......... :lol: obviously the 85% seat thing is beyond her master knowledge techniques.
Just because she could not ride or suceed in the sport, she bashes it for her own self esteem purposes.

[STF]

When I was in Portugal, we use sticks from tree, literally... it's not 'processed' at all. Just rip it off a tree, remove the leaves. I thought wow these people don't want to hurt their horses, cuz the branch just look so fragile and harmless. Little do I know... it actually stings WAY more than my regular dressage whip... which is loud but does not really hurt that much.

And to think, you could have been a millionaire!!! :lol:

[NOMIOMI1]

I had a run in with the ole carrot stick yesterday. My horse tied on the cross ties minding his own business spooked at people behind him again. I look over and once again the lady is training with the stick on her horse behind my tied one. She is making this whirling and smacking noise and my horse really was upset. I told the barn owner that it is getting out of hand that I dont do my dressage test in the barn aisle so they should do their training in the arenas too. She agreed and laughed because she actually thought I was talking about an actuall carrot not that whip thingy.

[Kit]

Uggh I can't stand all the pp crap. All those cowboy hats and waving carrot sticks around, chasing the horse away that has been freaked out by the carrot stick their owner was flashing around so has escaped and no one else but the owner is allowed to catch again. Poor horses. To be honest, I don't mind the seven games and think they are great for the new horse owners and young people as they really do simplify things for people on the ground and help them with handling the horse/pony. What I hate is all the repetive stuff. They just go on and on. I've seen a few clinics and I wouldn't go again. I know too many people who have got into too much trouble with their horses. They do crazy stuff. Do the games and then get on and ride your horse and get some good riding lessons.

[dutchmike]

When I was in Portugal

Who did you ride with in Portugal?.

[pnpn]

A group of us went to a PP demo and very nearly laughed out loud. We decided it was for people who couldn't ride in any other discipline successfully and left as soon as we could once we witnessed them riding horses onto a two horse trailer. How safe is that???

[SerenaGinger]

A group of us went to a PP demo and very nearly laughed out loud. We decided it was for people who couldn't ride in any other discipline successfully and left as soon as we could once we witnessed them riding horses onto a two horse trailer. How safe is that???

Have you seen the video of PP riding a horse into a MOVING trailer? :eek:

[MyReality]

Who did you ride with in Portugal?.

I rode with António Calhamar. He was still in Mafra at the time, so we could go to the military school to watch lessons or and we would go to Queluz to watch Filipe Graciosa and his riders... now that is a master. Of course we all looked like stupid foreigners wearing our breeches with cameras in hand... and Antonio was gone socializing (don't tell him I say that)... but truly I learned so much.

[MyReality]

And to think, you could have been a millionaire!!! :lol:

Honestly I think it will work. People will think it's more 'natural'. I will even leave some leafs on.

[dutchmike]

Filipe Graciosa and his riders
I know Filipe and his wife Isabella well and most of Classical riders in Portugal that is why I asked ;).
BTW you do know the twigs have to be from a special tree right?. I think it is a willow tree in English but I am not sure

[Kathy Johnson]

The Everlasting Life Tree of Kaballah Horse Love only grows beside the Stream of Consciousness in the eternal light of the (eastern slope) Rocky Mountains. It is one of a kind, and it's right in my backyard! I would consider syndication or cloning for any serious investors.

[MyReality]

I am happy you know him! He is a great master. Yes, the sticks are reddish brown and quite flexible... I know they come from a specific type of tree, although I don't know the name of the tree. However, Antonio also fashioned ones from other trees, not as flexible but we use them, as we run out of the good ones sometimes.

[thumbsontop]

So...I have to start out by saying I have not even come close to reading all of the posts - there are simply too many - so I very well may have missed this...but...drum roll please... isn't a dressage rider criticizing PP and his methods just as bad as PP talking down about dressage?

What happened to having an open mind? Just because it isn't your cup of tea doesn't mean it's altogether wrong. Maybe a better attitude would go a long way in erasing the impression that people have that dressage riders are snobby. Please don't read that the wrong way - I'm not trying to accuse that of being the case - just pointing out that that kind of outright criticism might be where that impression comes from.

[veebug22]

Touche, thumbsontop. I've been thinking the same thing, and you said it perfectly. I feel like this has been turned into a thread about how Pat Parelli may or may not have meant to insult the entire dressage world, but since he even mentioned the word "dressage" in a possibly insulting way, now everyone is entitled to write pages and pages insulting him. How ironic.

[Mozart]

Well....he didn't have to poke us with a carrot stick.

[slc2]

for me, it has absolutely nothing to do with 'insulting dressage'. what i don't like about it is they present themselves as some sort of saviors, they cost an arm and a leg, they teach dressage incorrectly, they understand it incorrectly, they teach people to do things that aren't safe, they put people in a mindset where they try very ill advised things, they violate every concept of horsemanship, a great many people come out of these programs at best clueless and at worst dangerous, and they sell stupid stuff for inflated prices. other than that, i think they're great.:lol: i would dislike them if i was a bricklayer. it has nothing to do with 'insulting dressage' as a sport or endeavor. in fact, that would be far less harmful than what they actually do!

[Bluey]

So...I have to start out by saying I have not even come close to reading all of the posts - there are simply too many - so I very well may have missed this...but...drum roll please... isn't a dressage rider criticizing PP and his methods just as bad as PP talking down about dressage?

What happened to having an open mind? Just because it isn't your cup of tea doesn't mean it's altogether wrong. Maybe a better attitude would go a long way in erasing the impression that people have that dressage riders are snobby. Please don't read that the wrong way - I'm not trying to accuse that of being the case - just pointing out that that kind of outright criticism might be where that impression comes from.

How would you feel if you were a, say, reiner and some dressage trainer would try to spin their dressage horse, executing that spin badly, as they are saying how silly reining is?:eek:

Hard to know what true dressage is and keep an open mind about PP, if you watch him doing his impersonation of piaffe.;)

What sense is there to PP and Linda making fun of something they don't know about and still seem to be trying to imitate?:confused:

That is what is objectionable.:yes:

[Red Barn]

Well put, Bluey.

Some of us may be prone to bashing Parelli, but at least we're not publicly abusing our Carrot Sticks at the same time.

[twnkltoz]

And, PP is saying stuff that's just outright wrong. The whole short rein=spooky horse thing, etc.

[RHdobes563]

The Everlasting Life Tree of Kaballah Horse Love only grows beside the Stream of Consciousness in the eternal light of the (eastern slope) Rocky Mountains. It is one of a kind, and it's right in my backyard! I would consider syndication or cloning for any serious investors.

* SNORK *

What I would like to see is the Pepperonis do their demonstration at something like an "equine affair" followed immediately followed by (real) high level dressage riders and their horses. Just so the audience could compare. Or maybe something like, first the PP demonstrate a dressage movement, then a dressage rider does. Then the PP jump a horse, then a hunter (or eventer) does, etc...

[rcloisonne]

What I would like to see is the Pepperonis do their demonstration at something like an "equine affair" followed immediately followed by (real) high level dressage riders and their horses. Just so the audience could compare.
You mean "real high level" dressage riders and horses like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JRzfocp5E&mode=related&search=

[slc2]

please only one axe to grind per thread!

[petitefilly]

And, PP is saying stuff that's just outright wrong. The whole short rein=spooky horse thing, etc.

Okay, line up left or right. Who cares if PP has an agenda? If you care, to the left. If you do not, on the right.

PP wants to make money. Period. He don't know 'nothing about birthn' no baby, 'neither.

[danee]

Imagine the flaming that would have arose if there were internet forums during the times of Steinbrecht and Baucher. All of one school condeming the other. Wow, what a virtual blood bath that would have been.

Then someone open minded like Nuno Oliviera comes along and combines the two and produces movements far superior to anything before or after him.

You guys can bicker and throw stones all you want, but if you can't see all the good between the few things you don't like it is truly you and your horse's loss. There is something beautiful on both sides of the supposed cold hard line that seperates PNH and dressage, but for the few (unfortuanately the few may not be more than the few who origonally combined Steinbrecht and Baucher) that cold hard line is pretty warm and fuzzy. The extremists on both sides are on Glaciers shouting about how the other side is freezing.:cry:


I feel sad that so many here will never know what could have been.

[dutchmike]

Imagine the flaming that would have arose if there were internet forums during the times of Steinbrecht and Baucher. All of one school condeming the other. Wow, what a virtual blood bath that would have been.

Then someone open minded like Nuno Oliviera comes along and combines the two and produces movements far superior to anything before or after him.

You guys can bicker and throw stones all you want, but if you can't see all the good between the few things you don't like it is truly you and your horse's loss. There is something beautiful on both sides of the supposed cold hard line that seperates PNH and dressage, but for the few (unfortuanately the few may not be more than the few who origonally combined Steinbrecht and Baucher) that cold hard line is pretty warm and fuzzy. The extremists on both sides are on Glaciers shouting about how the other side is freezing.:cry:


I feel sad that so many here will never know what could have been.

You are comparing the trashman to 3 noble prize winners here

[Pinerose]

http://www.the-endorphin-tap.com/index.html

[Pinerose]

This cracks me up!!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBSPQSkQgD4

[Kairoshorses]

rcloisonne, the video would be EVER so much effective if the text were punctuated correctly. That was as painful to me as the images. It's too bad, because it could have been powerful.

Now the "jump" video was hilarious.

And Kathy J, you are gifted indeed.

[danee]

OK, the Endo guy is just plain torcherous and gross- can we stop having to be reminded about his existance?

As a L3 PNHer, most of the "bad" stuff about Pat posted on this is just plain not true- if Pat lays a horse down it is one extreme horse, and most NHers lay horses down a hundred times more often then PP. I do think Pat has come a long way since his younger years (really, who hasn't- my job used to be to ride the jumpers while my trainer cracked their legs with bamboo!) so I'm not saying he has never been guilty of some of the things posted, but you guys act like Pat torchers horses as sport, and teaches others to do the same, which couldn't be further from the truth. Linda makes fun of "bad" dressage- we all do!!!! She doesn't hate dressage- she is going to great lengths to improve and get better at it.

I can see everyone asking if PNH will help their dressage, as some of the classical basics are not there (although they do seem to be working hard to fill those gaps!), but to flame the Parelli's for 28 pages and making claims that are totally unfounded is just immature.

We wouldn't discuss the endo guy throwing horses video for 28 pages- becuase we KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT the guy torchers horses. there is no discussion there! We can discuss Pat or Anky at great length because they are successful. But what we should be discussing is what parts we like, which we dont, how to incorporate the good with our current knowledge, etc- not just throw stones and give "cult" advice (By the way, I noticed the one about DO NOT insult the leaders of the cult was not highlighted!!!)

[egontoast]

OK, the Endo guy is just plain torcherous and gross- can we stop having to be reminded about his existance?

I guess you are a hypocrite then because you said this

You guys can bicker and throw stones all you want, but if you can't see all the good between the few things you don't like it is truly you and your horse's loss. There is something beautiful on both sides of the supposed cold hard line that seperates PNH and dressage, but for the few (unfortuanately the few may not be more than the few who origonally combined Steinbrecht and Baucher) that cold hard line is pretty warm and fuzzy. The extremists on both sides are on Glaciers shouting about how the other side is freezing.:cry:


I feel sad that so many here will never know what could have been..

I don't like either one. OK with you?

[SueT]

I figure you can learn something from any instructor....even if it's what NOT to do. I have a close friend who was interviewed to work for PP. He spent some time there and came away soooo UNimpressed with this man. Said his ego is enormous and he would never, ever work for him. Now, this man is a wonderful rider and is soft and quiet and just marvelous. He could not ride HIS way while working for PP, so he declined the job. All of us have trainers we like and some we don't. It's a matter of personal choice. I choose to have a trainer who has both feet on the ground and is more worried about training my horse than looking good on TV....lol....





I guess you are a hypocrite then because you said this

.

I don't like either one. OK with you?

[iheartcloudnine]

Wow, I didn't know that either...personally I don't like him, but that's just me

[STF]

Linda makes fun of "bad" dressage- we all do!!!! She doesn't hate dressage

I personally listened to her talk horrible about dressage in general. Just as this thread is about as Pat did not national TV!!! It is not about bad dressage, its about dressage in general.
Linda in a idiot and Pat is right there behind her. Huge scam artisits that prey on the weak and less knowledgeable.

[STF]

Well put, Bluey.

Some of us may be prone to bashing Parelli, but at least we're not publicly abusing our Carrot Sticks at the same time.

Only when they say dumb shit on national TV! :lol:

[Reiterin]

A barnmate got back this week from there Parelli Savvy Conference. She's all a twitter with inspiration even forked out several hundred dollars on a new bridle to do dressage a la Parelli.

This is not the actual bit, but its close. Myler is making a special "Parelli" type. I guess they call it a cradle bridle. deos that make sound sweet or what?

http://www.toklat.com/myler/mbits_combo.html

When you are really savvy you can use one of these! From what I hear its what Linda found majikal on her warmblood. At least there making progress on doing dressage the Parelli way.

[Moll]

Oh well, I guess I'm the only one apart from the Parellis who see more bad than good in dressage today.

[slc2]

not true - anyone who has something to sell is saying the same thing.