I did not know P. Parelli publicly insulted other disciplines...

[Rachel L]

Right. So you're one of the lucky 3% who didn't crash. (And I'm glad, because you really do sound like a nice woman.)

But your good fortune probably isn't much consolation to all those other nice people lying around in body casts, now is it?

I have been involved with a local parelli club for about the last five years, and the leader for the last year and a half. We have about 120 members. I can't think of any of our members who have been seriously hurt by a horse in the time I have been with the group.

Edited: actually, I take that back, I can think of two people who were bucked off and hurt bad enough that they were off their horses for a few weeks.

[arena run]

A horse is only as good as his rider! I think since PP isnt actually riding some of the beasts discussed here that it falls back onto the actual rider and trust me I have met many people like the ones discribed on here who have never had an ounce of PP training they just came upon the sillyness and weird ideas on their own.

I know I use Parellie methods and other natural training methods on all my horses... plus I glean a good bit from posts here on this board but....

To tell the truth....

If given the opportunity I just don't think I'd be letting the big P-man handle any of my horses. :D I've seen him handle the horses and, while I do understand the theory behind the methods, I don't like what I see when he drills them from the ground. I do, however, like what I've seen from Linda. She's much more patient w/them and her horses seem to have a better connection to her than Pat's do to him.

I agree w/you there, too. Parelli 'people' do not have a corner on the Silly and Weird Market. Although from reading some of the experiences on this thread they do seem to have flocked together in some places. lol sylvia

[NOMIOMI1]

I have been involved with a local parelli club for about the last five years, and the leader for the last year and a half. We have about 120 members. I can't think of any of our members who have been seriously hurt by a horse in the time I have been with the group.


5 years 120 member no serious injuries. Sounds either made up or you all really dont ride hardly at all.

Maybe you have a very different definition of injury??

[arena run]

Right. So you're one of the lucky 3% who didn't crash. (And I'm glad, because you really do sound like a nice woman.)

But your good fortune probably isn't much consolation to all those other nice people lying around in body casts, now is it?

Thank you. :)

Well, no. It isn't. But people lie around in body casts when using lots of different training methods. See the latest 'injury' thread on the BB. Surely it couldn't be that the overwhelming majority of those posters are PP folks. :) (?) sylvia


EDITED:


Oh, dear.
The "body casts" in question aren't literal ones. The phrase refers to the driving school analogy in my post above - you see? It was meant metaphorically.
I hope you will forgive me if I am excessively obscure. I was trying to make a very basic point about Parelli's overall sucess rate, not about the number of injuries sustained by his unfortunate devotees. (If one was counting literal broken bones, I imagine the Eventers would win by a long shot.)

Added this clarification of my own 'take' on that post. :) Sorry, RedBarn. I took it a bit 'literally', too.

[arena run]

Well whatever. But I tell you guys, I have been thinking really hard about this Parelli stuff all day.

Tonight I am going to have an open mind and I'm go try to 'understand' the Parelli way. So when I sit in the dirt while I lunge my horse do I sit Indian Style? Or in a Yoga position? How do I pivot? Can I just hold my arm up in the air and let the rope go around that way? Or do I need to be facing my horse at all times?

A sit and spin would be handy!

Humph. Maybe I should buy his book 1st, are there illustrations?

Is this a serious post or are you being sarcastic? :) I can't quite tell. LOL

If you're sincere, I sincerely hope you are able to succeed in ignoring his attitute and some of the cutsy little phrases he uses to help the novices remember stuff. I also have to just stop watching and talk to Momma when they get to the part of the show where they're sitting on the couch talking about what's going on in that particular clinic you've been watching. I mean, gag. LOL

BUT..... the open mind bit you spoke of should help. Ignore the blatant "buy this 'cause we use it' and 'buy that 'cause we're selling it' propaganda. Maybe it would be a good idea to buy his book first afterall. :)

I, personally, do not sit while I'm lunging my horses nor do I loop the lead rope in any way about my person. :)

I have lunged the horses I'm ponying around the horse I'm sitting on to get them over a ditch or to the correct side of the my pony horse. And I've jumped them up the small, vertical bank that is the gate into my pasture and 'lunged' them a bit further down the fence to get out of the way for the second horse I'm about to jump up the bank. And I've handled them from a sitting/squating position as simply a way to desensitize them to being handled from 'below the nose'... so to speak. :) (getting them ready to be handled by kids).... I'll never forget the look in my qh mare's face as I was sitting on the ground (resting and eating) and I asked her to back up off my lunch. She was like, "What????" When I stood up she said, "OH! You mean back up... Shouldda said so then." :D sylvia

[Wild Oaks Farm]

Well whatever. But I tell you guys, I have been thinking really hard about this Parelli stuff all day.

Tonight I am going to have an open mind and I'm go try to 'understand' the Parelli way. So when I sit in the dirt while I lunge my horse do I sit Indian Style? Or in a Yoga position? How do I pivot? Can I just hold my arm up in the air and let the rope go around that way? Or do I need to be facing my horse at all times?

A sit and spin would be handy!

Humph. Maybe I should buy his book 1st, are there illustrations?

Well, the first thing you are going to need is the left-handed longeline (unless of course you are right-handed, in which case you can buy the right-handed longe line). This will be very expensive (as will be the DVDs, books, and clinics), but since you won't need a saddle, bridle or helmet, you'll have plenty of money to spend on left-handed longe lines, carrot sticks and barrels to jump over!

[Lancaster9]

Whoops! I read something wrong! Apologies! :)

No worries. I think my post came across as snobbish, it was meant to be funny.... Despite my attempts to calm the waters, I would hate to think of having my profession confused with theirs! :)

[Red Barn]

I have been involved with a local parelli club for about the last five years, and the leader for the last year and a half. We have about 120 members. I can't think of any of our members who have been seriously hurt by a horse in the time I have been with the group.

Edited: actually, I take that back, I can think of two people who were bucked off and hurt bad enough that they were off their horses for a few weeks.

Oh, dear.

The "body casts" in question aren't literal ones. The phrase refers to the driving school analogy in my post above - you see? It was meant metaphorically.

I hope you will forgive me if I am excessively obscure. I was trying to make a very basic point about Parelli's overall sucess rate, not about the number of injuries sustained by his unfortunate devotees. (If one was counting literal broken bones, I imagine the Eventers would win by a long shot.)

[arena run]

Well, the first thing you are going to need is the left-handed longeline (unless of course you are right-handed, in which case you can buy the right-handed longe line). This will be very expensive (as will be the DVDs, books, and clinics), but since you won't need a saddle, bridle or helmet, you'll have plenty of money to spend on left-handed longe lines, carrot sticks and barrels to jump over!


Come on now, Wild Oaks... get your stuff straight. They don't sell the barrels. Just the Cow Covers for them. Sheesh. LOL

All jokes aside, there is alot of sad truth to this post. And this is what makes these threads explode the way they do. The basic premise, ime and imo, is sound and horse-worthy. But the packaging and selling tactics are very off-putting. sylvia

[Rachel L]

Oh, dear.

The "body casts" in question aren't literal ones. The phrase refers to the driving school analogy in my post above - you see? It was meant metaphorically.

I hope you will forgive me if I am excessively obscure. I was trying to make a very basic point about Parelli's overall sucess rate, not about the number of injuries sustained by his unfortunate devotees. (If one was counting literal broken bones, I imagine the Eventers would win by a long shot.)

Edited: well heck, I don't know what I was trying to say. In my observation, the number of horses wrecked by parelli seems about the same as the number wrecked by other training systems I have encountered. I think the success rate is the same.

[slainte!]

i just visited www.parelli.com

he's marketing a french link snaffle as a *ahem, cough, cough* "confidence snaffle".

it's a french link. always has been, always will be!

[purplnurpl]

He did a clinic here a few years back.

he was lunging a horse with the rope twisted all about his hand. OOOPS!

no kidding, he went home with a broken hand. He DID actually finish the day's clinic with broken fingers!!

[kkate]

Has anyone worked with Linda Tellington Jones on her techniques?

I used her massage techniques on a rescued aged saddlebred to gain his trust many years ago. Did it all winter a few times a week, since footing was bad.

I can't say that her massage techniques made him bond any better than if I had just gone out and brushed him longer, just gave me something to do other than just brushing :) or torturing him with a rope halter and a carrot stick :)

Honestly, I think he would have kicked my butt literally if I had even a notion to try Parelli on him.

I have a friend with a similarly minded arab. She tried the Parelli crap for a brief time, and it got the point where the mare would try to hide from her whenever she saw her coming. No happy to see you nickers, just sulking in the far end of the paddock. She ditched the Parelli, and now gets the happy to see you nickers :) She is using the LTJ massage on her, just to spend some time with her and do something other than brushing (ill husband so not much riding time).

[dalpal]

i just visited www.parelli.com

he's marketing a french link snaffle as a *ahem, cough, cough* "confidence snaffle".

it's a french link. always has been, always will be!

LOL..don't know why they sell any bits......the horses that I personally have seen go through the Parelli levels never get to a bit. :lol:

Seriously, I knew two women who owned two brothers....Brother one is now 8 and doing the hunter circuit...he went to what we call "the university"..a well known hunter/jumper rider who has a stellar rep for starting horses the "convential" route.

Edited..to add, I'm not picking on homeschooled kids...just stating the difference between the two horses...one who went to a professional trainer and one trained by his owner.

Brother 2 was "Homeschooled" he went through the levels with his certified parelli owner....at the same age, still going around in a rope halter and bareback pad.

In all seriousness...I guess it simply depends on your goals.....for me, I went the university route with my mare.

[Lancaster9]

(But I don't think hitting out at the "other side" will get us anywhere).

i just visited www.parelli.com

he's marketing a french link snaffle as a *ahem, cough, cough* "confidence snaffle".

it's a french link. always has been, always will be!

Well I'm a big fan of french links (or oval mouths or whatever that is), and I don't see the harm of re-naming something to make it more accessible, or palatable, to a different audience. Yes he's profiting from it but surely there's some benefit to it? The number of old dobbins ridden in shanked curb bits with unforgiving hands in people's backyards is appalling. Frankly I don't care if PP is getting rich off this, at least the horses are profiting too. (And I know this will be countered by a dozen posts again saying how horses are ruined by PNH, but sorry I'll need some more concrete comparative statistics before I'm convinced of that).

[copper1]

I watch people do the PP method of training all the time and a great deal ofit scares me to death! I do realize what he is trying to accomplish with his "games" and such and it does work in some cases. The big problem in my eyes is: novice horseman go to a weekend or day clinic and come back thinking they know it all and proceed to do stuff that is going to get them hurt. Thye don't have the patience or the experience to work thru some of the problems different horses present. When these people tell you that they don't need lessons becasue they are a student of... or you see them being run away with into a dangerous situation and won't pull on the reins because that would be wrong! Working with a young hore for HOURS to get it to jump the barrel when they can't read that the horse quit on them 20 minutes into the session!
If these NH guys save even one horse from abuse then i guess they are successful but even so, one msut have some intelligence when using it!

[wlrottge]

I've said it before and the biggest thing that bothers me a PP is their marketing.

First, they emotionally blackmail you, "If you love your horse, you'll use our system, otherwise you're an abuser and should not own a horse". How is a noobie supposed to handle that?

Then, slighting ALL other disciplines. I've seen some bad "trainers/riders" in both english and western, but IMHO, I've seen far more horses abused via western mentality than english. He runs his mouth a/b how bad contact is, but don't hear a peep a/b the abuses that run rampant in the western world. Anyone else notice that in every picture of him, he's wearing spurs? Given his stance on so many other things, looks hypocritical to me.

Finally, but most importantly/aggravatingly, I think it's like marketing cigarettes to kids. People who don't know better are sold on a "DIY" training kit and have stars put in their eyes. They don't get the proper exposure to how to behave around a horse b/c the for the most part they shun classical training b/c they are told to. So you end up with a beginner with a green/unbroke horse expecting the books and DVD's to turn them into a NH master like PP. It's kinda like a quick fix for things that are never quick fixes.

ETA - I also don't think his methods stress the individualness of each horse or breed. I'll go out on a limb here and say that I think there are certain breeds that these techniques don't work as well for.

[NOMIOMI1]

I've seen far more horses abused via western mentality than english. .


You are talking about the mass population that rides in a western saddle? That is largley everone who rides without a competative goal. Not a fair statement above not fair at all!

Then what do you mean by english anyway?? English country pleasure ? Highstepping with the toe wieghts or dressage?

[wlrottge]

Ok, I'll clarify. Competitive Western riders. I've boarded at all sorts of barns and BY FAR the worst with regards to treatment of animals (care and training) was the massive 120 stall reining/WP barn we were stuck at for six months.

When I say English, I mean, dressage, hunter, eventing. Saddle seat and HUS (WP in English tack) are not included.

Sorry if my comment was misunderstood.

[Donella]

A quick note about Monty Roberts.

Haha yeah and another quick note, he invited himself to the last global dressage forum and proceeded to tell all the top dressage proffessionals that they should take piaffe right out of the tests for some obscene reason. Can you get anymore high on yourself than that?

And while many horses have been wrecked by many systems...I can honestly say that at least all the other equine disciplines I know revolve around developing a well trained riding horse. The pinacle of reining, dressage, eventing , jumping ect ect is to have a horse that excells under saddle. The parelli pinacle revolves around having a horse that performs silly tricks on the ground..riding doesn't even seem to enter the equation. Yet somehow, parellis seem to have no problem with critisizing other programs in regards to riding style ect. The only reason they are even where they are is because they prey on greenhorns who are amazed by simple methods...no accomplished equestrian wants anything to do with him or her..thats gotta tell you something about the depth or quality of their "discipline" if you will.

I dunno..I think Pat ( and Linda for that matter) need to shut their mouths, get some lunge lessons, learn how to sit on a horse and stop making the world embarrassed for them. The whole thing is seriously embarrassing. I don't know how anyone isn't embarrassed associating themselves with the name Parelli.:confused:

[NOMIOMI1]

Ok, I'll clarify. Competitive Western riders. I've boarded at all sorts of barns and BY FAR the worst with regards to treatment of animals (care and training) was the massive 120 stall reining/WP barn we were stuck at for six months.

When I say English, I mean, dressage, hunter, eventing. Saddle seat and HUS (WP in English tack) are not included.

Sorry if my comment was misunderstood.

One barn and your all set up to talk about lack of care of all wp/reiners wow thats balanced! hmm let me think the worst place I was at was a so called dressage barn with imported horses. Several horses colliced and died with days before anyone noticed them in larger pastures. From that I think poor horses bad owners not that dressage is a piece.

[wlrottge]

My intent was not to insult your particular style of riding, just point out the lopsidedness of PP 's senseless slander against English disciplines.

I've boarded at more than one western barn. I've been to several lower and a couple upper level western competitions and have worked as a pro photographer at a couple of them. My distaste is not from one facility, however I will say that I've never seen these things at an english barn:

- rode horse into a complete lather, trainer did not hose or properly cool b/c "i was punishing for being bad"
- tying horses in the corner of the indoor arena and leaving them there for days only providing water and hay
- tying horse in a stall for multi hour stretches w/o access to hay/water
- Leaving horses still on walker for several hours in summer heat w/o water
- colicing filly put on walker and dosed with enough banamine for a horse 3-4x her size, only to be kicked till she got up while hanging from her head when she tried to go down.
- tie horse to post and leave to go to lunch for an hour plus
- tie horses head to saddle and leave in arena for two hours to "figure it out"
- horse does not tie well yet, so repeatedly terrorized with a lunge whip.
- yank yank, jab jab with twisted wire bits and spurs with huge rowels.
- forcing an obviously lame horse to work HARD
- Expect that by the age of 3-4 their reining horses will be used up.

I'm sorry if you were insulted, but I've seen enough bad things to feel the way I do. I stated my intent at the beginning of this post. Maybe the converse to his "tight rein, no brain" should be "big spurs, little d*ck"

[NOMIOMI1]

Well then I agree with incompetance being just that. Yes I have seen trainers be hard on their horses in all disciplines. Yes I disagree with it on every level. I use trainers (in every discipline) that ride well therefore do not have to use said methods. I get offended when we are lumped together because I have to work as hard outside of dressage (hunt seat and wp) to do well without abuse and then someone tells me because I do use a spur and my bit isnt terribly fat that IM an abuser.

[Red Barn]

"big spurs, little d*ck"

Bumper stickers? T-shirts?

I'll take one of each!

[Coreene]

do I sit Indian Style? Only if you're in a liplock with GaWannabe Pony Boy. ;)

[Kenike]

*smile* There are only like 3 people whom YOU KNOW who claim to have seen a sane PP-trained horse. Let's not get our own experiences confused w/the reality of a wide, wide world. sylvia


Um, no, I haven't met, nor do I know of a single person who has ever seen a sane PP-trained horse. Everyone I know won't even go near a PP-trained horse because of the experiences (over a string of years) we've all had.

There's been 3, maybe 2 people on this exact thread who've said they've seen a sane PP-trained horse, or have had a good experience with the gimicks he uses. I am not one of them.

[Lori]

I have never been to the Parelli site until now via the link to the bits.

Gotta love the regular snaffle, not too thick, not too thin, just right. Um, what IS the thickness and wow, every horse will magically fit that bit!
None of their bits will work for my pony. He likes a mullen salox. LOL


I made the mistake of clicking on the Horsinality link. Good grief, I could not even read the whole thing and I just closed the site.

So, I agree with the person who posted that it may work for some horses but not for all of them. No two horses are the same. No one program will magically work and take the place of good genetics, handling and riding. :)

[Devo]

Well, I have to say, all the Parelli bashing is quite comical as it's the very thing you all hate about him bashing dressage. Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? :lol:

Also grouping all Parelli-ites together is rather assuming. There are ineffective riders and inexperienced horse handling going on in ALL disciplines. Shouldn't we all be advocating for the horse no matter what clinician we follow?

Horses and riders are different. No two are alike and some are a bad fit (like a bad marriage) There are good trainers, bad trainers, etc...

I have extensive experience with the Parelli methods and the principles are sound. For people entering into horse ownership especially at an older age, it's a program that can progressively take them through the basics- learning how to keep a horse at a safe distance etc...That is not a bad thing. Unfortunately, many people never progress past that basic level. They don't know what they don't know and that is often where people get hurt. They see Pat or Linda do something and try to emulate them without being properly prepared. Not good and the Parelli's discourage that.

In studying the program, I have never learned that dressage was "Bad". Linda often refers to herself as a "dressage nazi" because she allowed her competitive goals to overshadow the relationship with her horse. In stark contrast, dressage is the ultimate dance with the horse. When done properly, it is true harmony! A beautiful thing for sure.

So, harsh generalizations regarding people who study the program is way off base. Not all are rope wiggling lemmings who have been hypnotized by a marketing ploy. Most are actually astute enough to see past the marketing and ask questions. Learning never stops. There are many excellent natural horsemanship clinicians out there and there is a place for them.

So, open your minds and go enjoy your horses!

[BarbB]

I can't believe you guys had this trainwreck going and I didn't even hear the whistle blow!!!!!

[arena run]

Um, no, I haven't met, nor do I know of a single person who has ever seen a sane PP-trained horse. Everyone I know won't even go near a PP-trained horse because of the experiences (over a string of years) we've all had.
There's been 3, maybe 2 people on this exact thread who've said they've seen a sane PP-trained horse, or have had a good experience with the gimicks he uses. I am not one of them.

While I appreciate your experience... they do not constitue a complete world-view. *smile* There is one specific poster on this thread (rachel1) who knows 120 members of a Parelli club. That explodes these numbers quite a bit. According to her these horses are quite sane.

He doesn't use gimmicks when training, imo... his gimmicks come into play w/his marketing.
...
And while many horses have been wrecked by many systems...I can honestly say that at least all the other equine disciplines I know revolve around developing a well trained riding horse. The pinacle of reining, dressage, eventing , jumping ect ect is to have a horse that excells under saddle. The parelli pinacle revolves around having a horse that performs silly tricks on the ground..riding doesn't even seem to enter the equation. Yet somehow, parellis seem to have no problem with critisizing other programs in regards to riding style ect. The only reason they are even where they are is because they prey on greenhorns who are amazed by simple methods...no accomplished equestrian wants anything to do with him or her..thats gotta tell you something about the depth or quality of their "discipline" if you will.
I dunno..I think Pat ( and Linda for that matter) need to shut their mouths, get some lunge lessons, learn how to sit on a horse and stop making the world embarrassed for them. The whole thing is seriously embarrassing. I don't know how anyone isn't embarrassed associating themselves with the name Parelli.:confused:

Bold italics my own...

You state this as a fact because... (??) You're making alot of blanket statements here that simply aren't true. Don't confuse your own opinions w/fact.
I watch people do the PP method of training all the time and a great deal of it scares me to death! I do realize what he is trying to accomplish with his "games" and such and it does work in some cases. The big problem in my eyes is: novice horseman go to a weekend or day clinic and come back thinking they know it all and proceed to do stuff that is going to get them hurt. Thye don't have the patience or the experience to work thru some of the problems different horses present. When these people tell you that they don't need lessons becasue they are a student of... or you see them being run away with into a dangerous situation and won't pull on the reins because that would be wrong! Working with a young hore for HOURS to get it to jump the barrel when they can't read that the horse quit on them 20 minutes into the session!
If these NH guys save even one horse from abuse then i guess they are successful but even so, one must have some intelligence when using it!

Totally agree w/this bolded statement. And while it's true of Parelli stuff it also could be true of alot of other type clinics. Including hoof trimming, barrel racing, jumping... anything. It's just one of those things about the human race that transcends all understanding. :) We tend to believe in ourselves even when what we really need is a good dose of reality. This attitude isn't unique to Parelli clinic-goers.

One must have some intelligence when using it.... SHO-----NUFF. :) One must have intelligence when using ANYthing. lol
I can't believe you guys had this trainwreck going and I didn't even hear the whistle blow!!!!!

If we can all remain a bit civil and avoid universal generalizations it doesn't have to be a trainwreck. And while trainwrecks are quite entertaining... :D I'd like to see at least one natural training thread have a happy ending.

I, for one, am totally buying into the aggrevation that comes from hearing/seeing someone in a position of public attention disrespect your chosen discipline. It STINKS. Especially when the comments are generalized and not well-informed.

This particular river flows both ways though. I, for one, am totally tired of seeing folks disrespect Natural Training methods (regardless of the Huckster who happens to be touting the wares) w/out even TRYING to understand what they're about. Using terms like crap, idiots, silly, ruined, circus tricks... and making assumptions about those who would use these methods... and also generalizing the success/failure rate of the thing.

There is a camp who hates Parelli. *smile* There is a camp who, at the least, appreciates his methods. There ARE people and horses out there benefiting from these methods and the packaging in which they're presented. And there are people out there who would irritate the living daylights out of a person no matter WHAT they spouted about... just happens a good many of them are spouting Parelli-speak. There will always be the blind followers who trundle along, simply happy to be part of SOME-thing. Please, too... let's not forget the folks who are truly seeking a better way to relate to their horse... if they don't... should we really care if they ever ride or not?

It's not all bad. sylvia

[Donella]

Well, I have to say, all the Parelli bashing is quite comical as it's the very thing you all hate about him bashing dressage. Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black?

Ahh but the difference is he CLEARLY ( and Linda for that matter, I have seen her ride..and it AINT dressage) doesn't know ANYTHING about our discipline. I can say I get the general jist of Parelli, been to seminar ect.

[dutchmike]

You guys are giving Pratt P way to much publicity :cry:

[Daydream Believer]

I haven't read all the posts...way too long to catch up on now...but I have to add that the couple of folks I know who are serious about Parelli really do seem a bit cultist about it. One is a very timid rider with serious confidence issues and she'd spend hours on the end of a rope with her mare "teaching" her from the ground too afraid to ride her. The other is a more capable rider from what I've seen but she calls herself a Parelli trainer and makes a big deal over doing the levels. I have a couple of horses that came from her and they are overfriendly and pushy to the point of being obnoxious to handle. Little respect for people. One of the young mares I have as a broodmare is leased from her and we discussed me keeping her another year to breed again...but they decided they wanted her back instead so "she could begin her Parelli journey..." No kidding..that is how it was worded.

It's just sounds a little too hokey for me. I have no problem with using some of the NH groundwork techniques in my training program but I don't follow any one trainer's program nor do I feel like I have to do so to train a horse.

As for Parelli badmouthing other disciplines...I could care less. It only makes me shake my head but it doesn't upset me. Consider the source. ;-)

[arena run]

I haven't read all the posts...way too long to catch up on now...but I have to add that the couple of folks I know who are serious about Parelli really do seem a bit cultist about it. One is a very timid rider with serious confidence issues and she'd spend hours on the end of a rope with her mare "teaching" her from the ground too afraid to ride her. The other is a more capable rider from what I've seen but she calls herself a Parelli trainer and makes a big deal over doing the levels. I have a couple of horses that came from her and they are overfriendly and pushy to the point of being obnoxious to handle. Little respect for people. One of the young mares I have as a broodmare is leased from her and we discussed me keeping her another year to breed again...but they decided they wanted her back instead so "she could begin her Parelli journey..." No kidding..that is how it was worded.

It's just sounds a little too hokey for me. I have no problem with using some of the NH groundwork techniques in my training program but I don't follow any one trainer's program nor do I feel like I have to do so to train a horse.

As for Parelli badmouthing other disciplines...I could care less. It only makes me shake my head but it doesn't upset me. Consider the source. ;-)


Your post is a fair generalization of the outcome of this thread. :) Only thing is we did discover there are sane P-users and there do exist sane P-horses.

You know... I have to wonder here.... does the Parelli Plan create this type 'cultish' behavior or could it be that his marketing strategy, and the way he presents his methods, actually ends up drawing in this type person? Kinda like the mule board I visit. I don't think mules create the type folks who post on that board... my belief is those type folks are drawn to mules and thus end up on the mule board. :D sylvia

[slc2]

I think that it is both - the persona and propoganda draws specific people in AND continuously shapes them. the presentation is designed to exclude people who 'think for themselves', contrary to a prev post i don't believe parelli creates 'independent thinkers'. there is no creative thinking in the group. they THINK they're thinking independently, but the thinking is ONLY along very specific lines. in other words, they're brainwashed. they TOTALLY believe in what they do, and that it is THE ANSWER to everything. how two people who ride dressage so cluelessly could become gurus to dressage people....now THAT'S brain washing.

[Devo]

Ahh but the difference is he CLEARLY ( and Linda for that matter, I have seen her ride..and it AINT dressage) doesn't know ANYTHING about our discipline. I can say I get the general jist of Parelli, been to seminar ect.[/QUOTE]

So, do you think studying with Walter Zettl is eqivalent to your going to a seminar??? So, maybe they know as much about dressage as you know about their program?
Just a thought...

[lstevenson]

So, do you think studying with Walter Zettl is eqivalent to your going to a seminar??? So, maybe they know as much about dressage as you know about their program?
Just a thought...



Since they think contact is a bad thing, obviously not.

[jilltx]

I went and saw he and Linda in person at a clinic (don't asked, it was not my idea) a couple of years ago, and their comments about dressage managed to piss me off in less then five minutes.

Linda was especially noxious and insulting and kept commenting on how big and thick her arms and upper body once were because, "she rode dressage (said in annoying lock-jaw accent)". :rolleyes:

After two days of watching them, they only thing I could see that they truly mastered was MARKETING. :D

[caffeinated]

marketing genuises.... I was just looking at the details of their saddles, and went to a "q&a" and "troubleshooting" page, wherein LP tells someone that the white hairs she's seeing on her horse don't mean the saddle fits badly, it just means it needs more shims, and that the white hairs are a GOOD thing, even.

Wow.

I guess that'll sell more shims...

[lstevenson]

"The parelli pinacle revolves around having a horse that performs silly tricks on the ground."



You state this as a fact because... (??) You're making alot of blanket statements here that simply aren't true. Don't confuse your own opinions w/fact.



This is absolutely a fact!!

I could give your advice right back to you "Don't confuse your own opinions w/fact."

I think we could easily take a poll on this subject, to see if the majority thinks it's a fact or not.

[jeano]

Parelli neighbor and her boarder were actually working their horses today so I rode my gelding over to observe. Nobody is actually RIDING, mind you. The boarder's pony is 5 now and still greenbroke, the neighbor's horse is going on 9 and STILL GREENBROKE and neither one of these horses is safe outside a very confined area. Both girls were hard at work with their carrot sticks, both horses were ignoring them. Neighbor confided several weeks ago that she really likes pareilli "because you can have fun with your horse."
Now, I know I'm just an anti-parelli failed rererider with no competetive ambitions, but here I thought I had just HAD me some fun, taking my 6 yr old gelding I've had 4 months out for an hour plus long trail ride up and down hills, walk trot canter, jumping a ditch or two, dodging coyotes, past scary mylar balloons stuck in a tree, past traffic, and then observing the above circus from horseback. My boy was perfectly well behaved.

BTW, when I got him he was terrified of men, couldnt be caught, wouldnt stand still to be mounted, but heck, he was better than the neighbor's horses.....

Someone asked about Ltellingtonjones, when parelli stuff just made my unhappy mare more unhappy i did some therapeutic ttouch stuff on her and she loffed it. She loffed clicker training even more. Funny thing, once I got her attention with that kind of stuff, all I have done with her is ride her. She's a pretty reliable trail horse too, despite her attitude toward carrot sticks.

[magnolia73]

Since they think contact is a bad thing, obviously not.

Or that they studied dressage and decided that the contact used by a dressage trainer was not appropriate in their opinion. You can listen and respect and still not agree with someone's ideas.

I think what they need to do is realize that they are teaching beginners. That their system does little more than perhaps pave the way for more advanced work. That to get the best performance from the horses in real, Olympic disciplines, additional training is needed.

[myhorsefaith]

I think what they need to do is realize that they are teaching beginners. That their system does little more than perhaps pave the way for more advanced work. That to get the best performance from the horses in real, Olympic disciplines, additional training is needed.

You are right. And I think in some obscure way, they admit this. Their levels program is intended to teach horsemanship. They do say (or did say...i know I have it in some of my levels stuff somewhere) that you should be ready to get into specific riding disciplines after completing the first 3 levels.

[Anselcat]

It takes so long to read through these threads, can I suggest we set up a code? Like:

1 = I hate PP
2 = P's don't know how to ride
3 = and he teaches dangerous things
4 = I know someone who does P and she did a stupid thing
5 = my horse did/does fine without P and/or would freak at the P stuff
6 = all their followers are fanatic middle-aged wannabes who don't ride
7 = he didn't start anything new
8 = he beats his horse behind the barn
9 = expensive gimmicks

10 = P teachings are OK, it's the marketing that sucks
11 = the P program helped my horse
12 = it's good for beginners
13 = it's based on Hunt, Dorrance and others that P gives credit to
14 = I know someone who does the P program and they're OK

15 = well, that's your opinion
16 = no, it's fact
17 = no, it's opinion
18 = fine don't tell me what I should like or not.
19 = OK, fine right back at ya.

20 = Hey, look at this Gypsy Vanner ad with the helmetless toddler on its back!

First post: 4-6-1-9
Second post: 11-13-10
Third post: 15.
Fourth: 16
Fifth: 20

[Sandy M]

Or that they studied dressage and decided that the contact used by a dressage trainer was not appropriate in their opinion. You can listen and respect and still not agree with someone's ideas.

I think what they need to do is realize that they are teaching beginners. That their system does little more than perhaps pave the way for more advanced work. That to get the best performance from the horses in real, Olympic disciplines, additional training is needed.


But they don't say it is "not appropriate" (for what they are doing) nor do they RESPECT dressage principles: They actively disparage them and say they are wrong: all dressage is bad dressage according to LP. (so much for respect - obviously only in a face-to-face with WAZ, otherwise: dressage BAD.) When The Ps have created a finished dressage horse, grand prix jumper, or even reiner, considering their more western emphasis, then MAYBE I'll give them some respect. Pave the way for more advanced work? Then why are so many people still "playing games." Most don't go on to advanced work (nor do the Parellis, from what I can see. Linda's so-called dressage is atrocious).

[terrioso]

Mama tried to teach us that if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. So I don't always follow that advice, but I'll try to add my pollyanna positive 2 cents here.

One thing Parelli teaches in his program is to hang out with your horse. 99% of everything else he teaches is complete bunk, IMO, but this is good advice. Take your horse out and hang out, not just a 60-minute ride, but sit on him and talk to someone on the rail. Do more than just ride. I guess that's the only thing I ever felt worthwhile after reading his book on the advice of a friend (Dear friend had an orphaned foal that was broke p-style, never a reliable riding horse but looked good in a rope halter). And that does make broke horses.

But yeah, games and chasing will not a competition horse make. So when do you "get" to ride, after thousands of $$ and years and levels later, when the horse is so bored he doesn't bat an eye to the lurching, unbalanced seat and cluelessness of his beginner rider? Just buy a broke horse, it will still be fun once you start to RIDE! :-)

[Wild Oaks Farm]

It takes so long to read through these threads, can I suggest we set up a code? Like:

1 = I hate PP
2 = P's don't know how to ride
3 = and he teaches dangerous things
4 = I know someone who does P and she did a stupid thing
5 = my horse did/does fine without P and/or would freak at the P stuff
6 = all their followers are fanatic middle-aged wannabes who don't ride
7 = he didn't start anything new
8 = he beats his horse behind the barn
9 = expensive gimmicks

10 = P teachings are OK, it's the marketing that sucks
11 = the P program helped my horse
12 = it's good for beginners
13 = it's based on Hunt, Dorrance and others that P gives credit to
14 = I know someone who does the P program and they're OK

15 = well, that's your opinion
16 = no, it's fact
17 = no, it's opinion
18 = fine don't tell me what I should like or not.
19 = OK, fine right back at ya.

20 = Hey, look at this Gypsy Vanner ad with the helmetless toddler on its back!

First post: 4-6-1-9
Second post: 11-13-10
Third post: 15.
Fourth: 16
Fifth: 20


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[jeano]

I think my big problem with the whole exploitative scheme is that it encourages my neighbor and her boarder to believe they are making PROGRESS toward actually riding their horses, when in reality the horses, after nearly two years of this homeschooling, are becoming more unridable by novices. And, since they are convinced that nobody else would ever give poopsie a good home, they'll never replace poopsie WITH a broke horse they can ride.

#21) If I have to blessed with Parelli neighbors, can't they be Parelli people who actually DO ride their horses so I can have someone to ride with?

[Wild Oaks Farm]

#22 - Do you think my mini donkeys would benefit from Parelli?

[wlrottge]

#23 - will you teach me how to jump my 2 month old foal over a log too?

[merrygoround]

OK So PP is a self-important, over marketed, stuffed shirt, who displays his ignorance every time he opens his mouth.

It is really sad though that the O'Connors gave so much credence to his techniques, without any of their education and knowledge rubbing off on him. Makes one wonder about their wisdom!! :(

Too many people don't realize that all of the NH "principles" have been practiced by goo horsemen for centuries.

[Sandy M]

OK So PP is a self-important, over marketed, stuffed shirt, who displays his ignorance every time he opens his mouth.

It is really sad though that the O'Connors gave so much credence to his techniques, without any of their education and knowledge rubbing off on him. Makes one wonder about their wisdom!! :(

Too many people don't realize that all of the NH "principles" have been practiced by goo horsemen for centuries.


Well, we all need to make a living, and I guess that the O'Connors figured that with all the hoo-hah and marketing, it would help them financially. They sured backed off in a hurry, though (I don't see any combined Parelli/O'Connor overpriced seminars advertised anymore), and the one article that David O'Connor had in Practical Horseman about roundpen/lungeing technique was hardly anything new - Parelli-influenced or otherwise.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

#24 can this be depicted in stick horsie art?

[zagafi]

Gentle readers, I must correct some grievous information in this thread. The Parellis do not longe, for you see, it is simply horrible to do so. However the Circling Game, wherein the horse does travel in a circle, whilst being attached to a long lead of some variety, is different. Why, you ask? Because in the Circling Game the longeur (or "circlers"??) never moves his or her feet. One need only pass said rope behind one's back. Presumably, moving ones feet is a grave sin and it is preferable to be blissfully unaware of activity behind one's back.

OH!! I had to add this, too. Using rein pressure to get a horse to back up is simply WRONG. If you have to "go to your reins", you're clearly mistaken--the "feet waggling" move is the "correct" way. Guess that silly "reinback" is yet more proof of those "tight reins" he blathers on about.

Yes, I do have firsthand knowledge of this interesting phenomenon.

[Sandy M]

Gentle readers, I must correct some grievous information in this thread. The Parellis do not longe, for you see, it is simply horrible to do so. However the Circling Game, wherein the horse does travel in a circle, whilst being attached to a long lead of some variety, is different. Why, you ask? Because in the Circling Game the longeur (or "circlers"??) never moves his or her feet. One need only pass said rope behind one's back. Presumably, moving ones feet is a grave sin and it is preferable to be blissfully unaware of activity behind one's back.

Yes, I do have firsthand knowledge of this interesting phenomenon.

ROFLOL. Yo tambien. "Lungeing is mindless circles" - PP ME: "Not if you do it correctly." However, the circling game certainly looks like mindless circles.

Vaguely remember reading something of Mark Rashid's where he said he always like to move with the horse and enlarge then contract the circle periodically. Always been the way I've been taught to lunge. But I supposed for PP the use of surcingles or sidereins is something dreadful also.

[jazzrider]

#25 - I don't know a thing about PP's teachings and don't care to find out.

#6

# 26 - The people that hate PP are using up more energy venting about it than he's worth.

# 27 - I think it's funny that PP's comment about dressage (while offensive) are far more tame than some of the comments made on this thread!

[zagafi]

ROFLOL. Yo tambien. "Lungeing is mindless circles" - PP ME: "Not if you do it correctly." However, the circling game certainly looks like mindless circles.

Vaguely remember reading something of Mark Rashid's where he said he always like to move with the horse and enlarge then contract the circle periodically. Always been the way I've been taught to lunge. But I supposed for PP the use of surcingles or sidereins is something dreadful also.

Yeah, it's mindless circles when all the horse is doing is, um...circling! Of course, longeing without a plan is pretty mindless, too, but I haven't seen a whole lot of that. I *have* seen a lot of the Circling game, though.

And yes, surcingles and sidereins are of the devil. Large roweled spurs and long shanked curb bits, however, are just dandy. (Ok, I've not heard him say this, but I'm willing to bet I'm not far off!)

[myhorsefaith]

:lol::lol: This thread IS funny!And yet I still feel the need to chime in...LOL

The circle game vs longeing... yes, you are right- people who do not know what they are doing longeing cause problems to their horse. Parelli, targeting these wayward warriors, tells them not to longe. The circling game and why pp people do not move their feet= its to teach the horse to maintain the circle and the gait without reinforcement. Its broken into send, allow, bring back, which are all elements of the games before it, namely friendly, porcupine, driving. Its also to have people quite bothering their horse on the longe- people who needlessly and mostly ignorantly chase or follow their horse with a longewhip, their body position, etc.

On backing up- the pp system breaks down tasks into phases...teaching the human the mental, emotional and physical body control required to teach a movement- and how to have a plan to escalate the pressure if the horse resists the pressure offered rather than give to it. (hmm...sound familiar?) So yes, the end goal might be that they want their horse to back up with a slight shift in body position- the pp program would give a series of phases lightest to strongest. One of the phases may be this boot wiggle thing, and the "stronger" phase (the ask) is picking up the rein.

The problem is, a lot of these people STILL have no idea what they are doing and couldn't explain their way out of a cardboard box if asked.

Carry on, carry on! :lol:

[Sandy M]

# 27 - I think it's funny that PP's comment about dressage (while offensive) are far more tame than some of the comments made on this thread!


And yet, even among people who don't think much of PP's methods, most are willing to say, "If that floats your boat...whatever, just don't condescend to me about my following more classical/traditional methods." But PP and his followers are locked into the "only OUR way is correct," AND they attempt to proselytize, and I think that's why you get so much vitriol when the subject of PP and LP is raised (especially LP with the dressage community). For me to say, "I don't do Parelli and don't think much of it (or that it is anything new)," is just my opinion....but the Parellites come on with "You are a horse abuser" if you don't "do Parelli." THAT creates quite a backlash, as one can easily see on this BB.

[Lancaster9]

Since they think contact is a bad thing, obviously not.

Did I miss something?? Where did PP say bad things about contact? I was under the impression that he was only talking about tight reins. Correct me if I'm wrong. You see, contact is a whole other issue. After all, there's a whole debate raging in our own backyard as to what constitutes an acceptable contact and what is, ummm, beyond contact and unacceptable...

"The parelli pinacle revolves around having a horse that performs silly tricks on the ground."

I think we could easily take a poll on this subject, to see if the majority thinks it's a fact or not.


The poll sounds like a good idea. Of course, first we need to define what constitutes 'silly', but for the sake of argument let's say it's something which serves no purpose other than entertainment. Would that work? And of course, we need a control population, so if we're going to ask questions about PNH horses then we need to do the same sort of investigation of horses trained by other methods. Again for the sake of argument, we could limit this to dressage-trained animals. So, we'll have to set up a questionnaire for both Parelli people and dressage people and ask them two T/F questions, one about dressage and the other about PNH: "___ revolves around having a horse that performs silly tricks on the ground - T/F". Of course that would just result in a proportional split, so I'd suggest opening up the poll to other equestrian disciplines as well, or perhaps even non-horse people. This might give us some more interesting results, especially if we also gathered demographic info about respondents. So, we'll ask the equestrian world at large: True/False: Dressage/PNH revolves around having a horse that performs silly tricks. What do you think the results will be? (Ummm, Hello, my name is Lancaster9, and I'm a Certified Social Science Geek.) ;) :lol:

[zagafi]

:lol::lol: This thread IS funny!And yet I still feel the need to chime in...LOL

The circle game vs longeing... yes, you are right- people who do not know what they are doing longeing cause problems to their horse. Parelli, targeting these wayward warriors, tells them not to longe. The circling game and why pp people do not move their feet= its to teach the horse to maintain the circle and the gait without reinforcement. Its broken into send, allow, bring back, which are all elements of the games before it, namely friendly, porcupine, driving. Its also to have people quite bothering their horse on the longe- people who needlessly and mostly ignorantly chase or follow their horse with a longewhip, their body position, etc.

On backing up- the pp system breaks down tasks into phases...teaching the human the mental, emotional and physical body control required to teach a movement- and how to have a plan to escalate the pressure if the horse resists the pressure offered rather than give to it. (hmm...sound familiar?) So yes, the end goal might be that they want their horse to back up with a slight shift in body position- the pp program would give a series of phases lightest to strongest. One of the phases may be this boot wiggle thing, and the "stronger" phase (the ask) is picking up the rein.

The problem is, a lot of these people STILL have no idea what they are doing and couldn't explain their way out of a cardboard box if asked.

Carry on, carry on! :lol:

Actually, no, "phase 4" of backing is flapping your legs HARDER. Honest to God. Phase 1-light wiggle, Phase 2-more forceful wiggle and so on. There's a very large Parelli following at my barn, and I've taken a few lessons (enough to know I didn't want more) and audited a clinic. I'm not making this up. My BO is a very, very fine horsewoman in her own right, and when she fell prey to the Parelli marketing I almost wept. But as a result, Parelli is everywhere--they're hosting a Level 2/3 clinic this fall and hosted a Level 1 in March, which is the one I audited. While I really like and respect Carol Coppinger, she even claimed that the "generic" carrot sticks (the white ones I dubbed kohlrabi sticks) might not work as well as "theirs". Uhhhh...

Anyway, none of this is "hearsay". I've seen and heard it myself.

And while you've provided fair explanations, it's not so with PP himself. According to him ALL longeing is horrible. It's his ridiculously generalized assertions that turn me off more than anything. Well, that's not true. His Amway type marketing turns me of more.

[Lancaster9]

And yet, even among people who don't think much of PP's methods, most are willing to say, "If that floats your boat...whatever, just don't condescend to me about my following more classical/traditional methods." But PP and his followers are locked into the "only OUR way is correct," AND they attempt to proselytize, and I think that's why you get so much vitriol when the subject of PP and LP is raised (especially LP with the dressage community). For me to say, "I don't do Parelli and don't think much of it (or that it is anything new)," is just my opinion....but the Parellites come on with "You are a horse abuser" if you don't "do Parelli." THAT creates quite a backlash, as one can easily see on this BB.

Very good point Sandy M. I think you've just summarized my feelings exactly. Thing is, I'm still stuck on two wrongs don't make a right. And I also feel strangely compelled to point out that PP's comments are not necessarily bought into by all of his followers. I just think we need to build more bridges so that more of his followers understand why bashing other disciplines isn't reasonable. The more we do that, the less of a market there will be for PP's attacks.

[kung fu buckskin]

Hello I'm a new member so don't have all the posting skills yet, please be patient, thanks. I agree with the PP problems and would have to add some of the other persons who make the greater part of their livelihood with a single camera and scratchy mike developing weekly horse training sermons to be aired on a certain rural tv network. If you watch any of the three "C"s you will be suitably horrified. Additionally, as a huge and ignominious insult to dressage theory everywhere, there is an Arabian trainer with a TV show who literally rips his horse's face with the bit and slams the horse backward into the arena wall and calls it, I kid you not, "developing collection." The frightening thing is that newcomers/beginners watch this stuff and because these slick marketers are on tv/in print and often win in breed competitions (see Arabian trainer, above) they are believed and emulated.

[jazzrider]

And yet, even among people who don't think much of PP's methods, most are willing to say, "If that floats your boat...whatever, just don't condescend to me about my following more classical/traditional methods." But PP and his followers are locked into the "only OUR way is correct," AND they attempt to proselytize, and I think that's why you get so much vitriol when the subject of PP and LP is raised (especially LP with the dressage community). For me to say, "I don't do Parelli and don't think much of it (or that it is anything new)," is just my opinion....but the Parellites come on with "You are a horse abuser" if you don't "do Parelli." THAT creates quite a backlash, as one can easily see on this BB.

Ok, I've really just been reading this thread for fun. But now I have to ask, really (the bold statement)? I assumed these were just exaggerated, vitriolic accusations made within a mob mentality (or for sport). But really? Is this something they are documented, in print or video, as saying (not just heresay, here?). That, I would find astounding. And while my "D" is weak, my "Q" might just get a bit testy.

[MyReality]

ok, what I see is a 'trick' i.e. don't understand what's for, is asking the horse to stand on a podium with front legs.

kung fu, I can totally relate. I have this western rider who tries to show me what collection is. I said your horse is just curling, collection must involve elevation of forehand and poll. Guess what he said, he said you are talking about WB, QH has a different build and that's how they collect.

If they can just come up with their own terminologies, it will be A LOT EASIER for me to deal with.

[Sandy M]

Ok, I've really just been reading this thread for fun. But now I have to ask, really (the bold statement)? I assumed these were just exaggerated, vitriolic accusations made within a mob mentality (or for sport). But really? Is this something they are documented, in print or video, as saying (not just heresay, here?). That, I would find astounding. And while my "D" is weak, my "Q" might just get a bit testy.

I've had it said, directly to me, when I was schooling my old horse in dressage, when I walked him into my trailer (rather than send him in - he does both, but on this day I chose to walk in with him - stock trailer), when I declined to sign up for a Parelli clinic, when I said I preferred a leather halter on an adult, well-broke horse, etc. Also, many times on various internet BBs.

[arena run]

I suppose I'm going to have to just release my resiliancy and just give up. :) While some of these remarks I believe I can read w/a bit of... giving(?) to them... others are right back where we started when this thread first hit the board. It maybe should be a rule... if you're going to post on a 15page thread.... :) Read the whole thing first before you post redundant information or start - yet another - flame war. :D

*sigh* Yeah... that'll happen. LOL

At any rate... It doesn't matter WHAT subject is being spoken of... there will be people who believe in it and people who believe it's a bunch of hoopla and people who who can take it or leave it (no strong feelings either way) and there will ALWAYS (note the universal term there) be people who spew their bile all over whatever happens to be going on at the moment.

We would all do well to remember... just because you believe one way does not mean it IS that way. And just because one or two folks agree w/you does not create a scientific fact. Or equestrian fact for that matter. lol

Lancaster9, your proposal is very intriquing. It would be very interesting to see the results.... :D sylvia

[arena run]

I've had it said, directly to me, when I was schooling my old horse in dressage, when I walked him into my trailer (rather than send him in - he does both, but on this day I chose to walk in with him - stock trailer), when I declined to sign up for a Parelli clinic, when I said I preferred a leather halter on an adult, well-broke horse, etc. Also, many times on various internet BBs.

Sandy, I like your posts and respect your viewpoint even though we are of opposing Parelli (or rather natural training) views. So I have to ask the question. Do you believe that this 'ONE WAY' mentality is unique to Parelli followers? Have you never encountered (or heard of) someone taking lessons under a certain instructor who spouts this instructor's mumblings as gospel? sylvia

[Lancaster9]

You fought a brave fight Sylvia! Standing in the middle of a charging mob and saying "wait, let's talk about this" is never easy. Well done. (And thanks, I was wondering if anyone would get my joke about the poll - my humour is way too obscure sometimes!)

[Cookiewoo]

Yeah, I heard that "tight rein no brain" also. I thought I heard it wrong and backed it up. ???What I really LOVE about those shows are the "candidvcouch clips" where the Parellis admire themselves. Quintessential narcissism. But then, you have to love yourself.

I made the mistake of sending one of my horses to someone who was a closet Parelli disciple.This is someone I've known for a long time and an excellet rider.

I had not had the opportunity to see Mr. Parelli lately until this summer when I saw some of those shows on RFD TV or whatever that station is. Eye opening, isn't it?

HOWEVER, after 90 days, my mare loaded in the trailer without leading (a la Parelli)...note that said horse loaded fine to go to trainer. She also did the games in the round pen...jumping barrells and walking over stuff. And yes, I had checked on my horse many times and kept getting the "we're almost there" and "you're going to be so pleased" reponses about how FAR my horse was progressing. And yes, you could sort of ride ehr in the round pen, but not enough miles for what I had expected. Jumping barrells loose in a ring...big hairy deal...I wanted her to be a riding horse.

So, when summer passes, she will go to someone else.

He is a marketing genius. Gotta hand him that. Insidious.

Donna

I taught my horse to load in a few hours. Why would it take 90 days? Guess there's not much money in teaching a horse to load immediately.

[zagafi]

ok, what I see is a 'trick' i.e. don't understand what's for, is asking the horse to stand on a podium with front legs.


Ok, this is one thing I can find value in--I can see how it could be helpful when loading. Actually, I *have* seen it be helpful. There's a gal at my barn with a lovely QH gelding who simply did not want to load. She is a big Parelli devotee, and she worked with him outside, stepping up, stepping down and he became much more willing to step up and down into the trailer. She is also infinitely patient and kind(she's a retired 4th grade teacher) and I'm sure that had a lot to do with it as well.

[Sandy M]

Sandy, I like your posts and respect your viewpoint even though we are of opposing Parelli (or rather natural training) views. So I have to ask the question. Do you believe that this 'ONE WAY' mentality is unique to Parelli followers? Have you never encountered (or heard of) someone taking lessons under a certain instructor who spouts this instructor's mumblings as gospel? sylvia


(a) Not against "natural training" per se. Sent my 3 year old to a western/ranch trainer to be started. He was "flagged," "round penned" - though not much, etc. But when I rode him under the western trainer's instruction, guess what? Use your seat, legs, bend him around your inside leg, take a light contact, ride him into the outside rein....and she competes successfully in western ranch events and cutting.

(b) It would say it is not unique, but much more PREVALANT among Parelli followers. And why not? Most of them are new to horses. They don't know any better, I suppose. A shame that they tend to latch onto this so close-mindedly, though. I also know people - usually experienced horse people, but perhaps new to starting younsters - who entered into the Parelli program whole-heartedly and didn't like what happened with their horses and took them out of the program. When I HAVE heard people from other discplines spouting the
"my (trainer's) way, or the highway" mentality, it's usually been from western disciplines, though I am sure there are some H/J and dressage people who are the same way. However, quite a few dressage people, in particular, are (in)famous (LOL) for going to many clinicians, etc. and getting other views/viewpoints. I work with one particular dressage trainer, but she doesn't have any problem with me sometimes clincing with other trainers. I twice have "won" participation with clinics with former and present Olympians. I certainly didn't say, "No, I can't do it because MY trainer says...." (Actuality: My trainer says the same thing they do, it's just a different "eye" watching me, perhaps seeing something I/my regular instructor may have missed.)

[wlrottge]

Most of them are new to horses. They don't know any better, I suppose. A shame that they tend to latch onto this so close-mindedly, though.

It seems to be a trend in the horse world. You get people who do not know much/anything a/b horses and they will latch onto the first "stable/knowledgeable" thing they see/meet. Sadly usually to their detriment. We see it happen all too often with trainers that are no good for the horse or rider, but since it's the only thing they know... they stay. Usually once they "see the light" they are much better for it.

[myhorsefaith]

Actually, no, "phase 4" of backing is flapping your legs HARDER. Honest to God. Phase 1-light wiggle, Phase 2-more forceful wiggle and so on. There's a very large Parelli following at my barn, and I've taken a few lessons (enough to know I didn't want more) and audited a clinic. I'm not making this up.

Hehehe :lol: I believe you, honest! I wasn't trying to list out the phases in proper order, just to give the point that there was some kind of system to it all.

[wlrottge]

Actually, no, "phase 4" of backing is flapping your legs HARDER. Honest to God. Phase 1-light wiggle, Phase 2-more forceful wiggle and so on.

Don't forget to flap your arms!! It's just not "Savvy" if you don't ;)

[zagafi]

Hehehe :lol: I believe you, honest! I wasn't trying to list out the phases in proper order, just to give the point that there was some kind of system to it all.

I know! I was just saying "I'm not making this up" because it sounds so absurd when I actually typed it up! And honestly, I don't have a problem with the "phases"--it's similar to the "ask, tell, promise" method I've always been taught.

[arena run]

When I was reading the book I don't remember any foot or leg flapping. :)

I would like to see the written instructions for that 'phase' if possible. sylvia

[arena run]

I taught my horse to load in a few hours. Why would it take 90 days? Guess there's not much money in teaching a horse to load immediately.

I'm glad you had a positive experience w/your horse but... :) not all horses are created equal. :) lol Several I've taught in a few hours... one particular took ooohhhh, 3 yrs (?) before he would load reliably. He was a HARD CASE.... w/a HARD HEAD... and SET WAYS... that did NOT include trailers. lol sylvia

[danskbreeder]

Hi
I just came across this thread and thought I'd put in my two cents worth. I attended the Savvy Conference last year as a guest of one of the Parelli people. The most fascinating thing for me was that the audience didn't seem to know anything about horses. When Linda came out on her Dutch gelding in a working trot everyone started clapping like it was an amazing feat and the people next to me said "oooh is that piaffe?"

I was invited to attend for the three days, which I think usually costs $1000 but one day was all I could take. I did not find a single person with whom I had something in common.

Erica

[lstevenson]

The poll sounds like a good idea. Of course, first we need to define what constitutes 'silly', but for the sake of argument let's say it's something which serves no purpose other than entertainment. Would that work? And of course, we need a control population, so if we're going to ask questions about PNH horses then we need to do the same sort of investigation of horses trained by other methods. Again for the sake of argument, we could limit this to dressage-trained animals. So, we'll have to set up a questionnaire for both Parelli people and dressage people and ask them two T/F questions, one about dressage and the other about PNH: "___ revolves around having a horse that performs silly tricks on the ground - T/F". Of course that would just result in a proportional split, so I'd suggest opening up the poll to other equestrian disciplines as well, or perhaps even non-horse people. This might give us some more interesting results, especially if we also gathered demographic info about respondents. So, we'll ask the equestrian world at large: True/False: Dressage/PNH revolves around having a horse that performs silly tricks. What do you think the results will be? (Ummm, Hello, my name is Lancaster9, and I'm a Certified Social Science Geek.) ;) :lol:



It may be the heat is getting to me, but I am not getting this. :confused:

Are you implying that dressage is also about having a horse perform silly tricks?

If so, I think you need to learn more about dressage. EVERY movement has a distinct purpose, whether to engage, collect, or supple a horse. Which leads towards dressage's ultimate goal of rebalancing the horse to bring him to his ultimate potential of movement and athletic ability.

Parelli's tricks which have nothing (or very little) to do with riding, simply seem to have the goal of impressing the totally uneducated horse people. I was at one of their demonstrations where they made a horse go lay down in the water jump. What on earth is that trick useful for??? Why is it usefull to make your horse stand on a log like an elephant on a drum? Or to ride a horse around without a bridle, but instead be wacking it in the head with the carrot sticks to turn it??? Why is that better than a bridle???

[Devo]

This is almost like a religious war! Catholics vs protestants. Dressage vs Parelli. Which is the "true" horsemanship.:lol:

I had the wonderful opportunity to audit a Ray Hunt clinic. He taught all the same things that Parelli teaches. Pat gives Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Ronnie Willis credit for their great influence in Natural horsemanship. The only difference is the method of presentation. The principles are the same and they are sound.
Natural horsemanship is not a discipline unto itself. It is a way of being with horses. At least that is my understanding. It seemes to be the foundation for horse and rider to enter into training for competition in dressage, reining, etc... It's the stuff you do to prepare yourself and your horse for what you want to do next. Are there many ways to do that? YES. Is Parelli's method one way to do that? YES.

So, maybe don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.:winkgrin:

[Reiterin]

This is almost like a religious war! Catholics vs protestants. Dressage vs Parelli. Which is the "true" horsemanship.:lol:

I had the wonderful opportunity to audit a Ray Hunt clinic. He taught all the same things that Parelli teaches. Pat gives Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, Ronnie Willis credit for their great influence in Natural horsemanship. The only difference is the method of presentation. The principles are the same and they are sound.
Natural horsemanship is not a discipline unto itself. It is a way of being with horses. At least that is my understanding. It seemes to be the foundation for horse and rider to enter into training for competition in dressage, reining, etc... It's the stuff you do to prepare yourself and your horse for what you want to do next. Are there many ways to do that? YES. Is Parelli's method one way to do that? YES.

So, maybe don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.:winkgrin:

1. if you think they are the same with a different presentation, you need to go to a few more Hunt or Brannaman clinics. Its not the same!

2. And if its the "foundation", what possible benefit is there in allowing a horse to go hollow in the back on no rein contact, turn stiffly like a motorcycle from the whack of a stick, and back away from pressure on the reins only to tell him later on that he needs to move forward into the contact, bend to turn, and step through the rein aids?

3. Since it is supposed to prepare a rider for 'what to do next' why have we not seen any riders doing the 'next'? Where are the riders who learned Parelli, and trained a horse only with Parelli competing at and how are they doing?

[Reiterin]

Hi
I just came across this thread and thought I'd put in my two cents worth. I attended the Savvy Conference last year as a guest of one of the Parelli people. The most fascinating thing for me was that the audience didn't seem to know anything about horses. When Linda came out on her Dutch gelding in a working trot everyone started clapping like it was an amazing feat and the people next to me said "oooh is that piaffe?"

I was invited to attend for the three days, which I think usually costs $1000 but one day was all I could take. I did not find a single person with whom I had something in common.

Erica

A friend of mine took me one year too. Everyone was oohing and ahhing over Linda's "falling over the shoulder with counter-flexion and inside hand crossing the wither with weight in the outside seatbone" attempt at a half-pass... when she missed her change after that she had this "oh, that was me! I just have to figure out what I'm doing..." DUH!!!!!! Out they drug the cow barrels so she could have her horse anticipate a jump after her crooked sideward drift and he would change in spite of her. The crowd was all a flutter over how "natural" this whole scenario was since she was just "playing" with her horse and not getting mad at him or using a whip or spur. To which I had a thank goodness since it is entirely her fault for not having any concept of how to bend her horse.

Then she did at one point actually pick up the reins a teensy bit to which he tightened his back, shortened his neck and started to hover in a passagey trot that was all tension and evasion with Linda beeming away like she had accomplished some great thing.

This same friend of mine just thinks Pat and LInda are the best riders on the WZ Dvd's. I was laughing so hard at how WZ was actually frustrated and showing some of it during Linda's lesson when he's desperately trying to get her to get Remmer in front of her leg by doing "mediums" and every time she uses her leg, her hands shoot forward and out goes his nose and kerplunk on his forehand and he rushes away down the longside. WZ is encouraging and and trying, but dang it I just want to yell at her, KEEP YOUR CONTACT!!! They finally give up on that and he goes to some half-pass to try to close the haunches some and there again is that inside hand over her outside thigh practically. Then Pat, could he be any more obvious to show Pat that he needs to get that mare around the right leg? and he keeps telling him way too politely not so much hand. Poor mare is gaping her mouth in that spade bit as he's using all right rein to accomplish the 'bend'.

and... all they can do is piaffe... there is not even a first level lengthening out of those horses. Have they never read even the most basic classical literature? If you can't lengthen you weren't really collected!

Long story short, when I hear comments they say about dressage it just makes me laugh. In a way I feel sorry for people who buy into it so deeply. Most I've met just simply don't know. They want to walk and trot on the trail and not get stepped on and not feel totally lost when their horse does get spooked or bothered and for a lot of them, it really does help with that. They are plenty fulfilled playing games and riding here or there. But, plenty of the students want more than that. At least a few years ago, much was made about getting through the levels program.

The big problem with the levels comes at the Level 3, which is the highest level of home study requires that the riders jump obstacles, do collected, medium and extended walk/trot/canter, SI/HI, half-pass in trot, half-pass in canter with flying changes, counter canter, turn on haunches, slide stops and all sorts of things. The assessment standards allow them to pass them by doing them as isolated tricks and most of them try to teach them that way without any preparation, no balance or bend in the horse. ITs ideal if the horse tucks his chin and holds "vertical flexion" when he does the tasks with aloop in the reins, and on and on. These riders get stuck because usually no one has told them they have a horse that simply can't do those tasks, or needs serious physical development via correct gymnastic riding, or they just don't ride well enough to help the particular horse they have and many of them seek outside help from dressage instructors who are beyond flabbergasted by them. PP has to make dressage look bad to keep these folks in his fold or make them afraid of looking outside the program for help.

[lstevenson]

2. And if its the "foundation", what possible benefit is there in allowing a horse to go hollow in the back on no rein contact, turn stiffly like a motorcycle from the whack of a stick, and back away from pressure on the reins only to tell him later on that he needs to move forward into the contact, bend to turn, and step through the rein aids?

3. Since it is supposed to prepare a rider for 'what to do next' why have we not seen any riders doing the 'next'? Where are the riders who learned Parelli, and trained a horse only with Parelli competing at and how are they doing?



Exactly!

Excellent post Reiterin!

[Lancaster9]

It may be the heat is getting to me, but I am not getting this. :confused:

Are you implying that dressage is also about having a horse perform silly tricks?

If so, I think you need to learn more about dressage. EVERY movement has a distinct purpose, whether to engage, collect, or supple a horse. Which leads towards dressage's ultimate goal of rebalancing the horse to bring him to his ultimate potential of movement and athletic ability.

Parelli's tricks which have nothing (or very little) to do with riding, simply seem to have the goal of impressing the totally uneducated horse people. I was at one of their demonstrations where they made a horse go lay down in the water jump. What on earth is that trick useful for??? Why is it usefull to make your horse stand on a log like an elephant on a drum? Or to ride a horse around without a bridle, but instead be wacking it in the head with the carrot sticks to turn it??? Why is that better than a bridle???

lol, I knew no one would get my humour! That's ok, I'm used to it. NO, I was most definitely NOT implying that dressage is about silly tricks - I would be the last person on earth to do that. I WAS implying something about the way the general public perceives our discipline, in comparison with PNH. I don't think it's all that different and personally I feel this thread is doing nothing to help dressage's image problem! You see, Parelli people would insist that their tricks do have a purpose (bonding, understanding your horse, developing responsiveness, having fun with it, etc)... And they believe in it as strongly as we do in the training pyramid. Sooo, since there was talk of a poll about PNH, I thought it amusing to consider the way that the general public would view BOTH of the disciplines. I have a sneaking suspicion that both would be branded "silly tricks" by a rather convincing majority of the public. But it was all just a futile attempt to be funny in my own very dry way, so don't give it too much thought! :lol:

[Lancaster9]

2. And if its the "foundation", what possible benefit is there in allowing a horse to go hollow in the back on no rein contact, turn stiffly like a motorcycle from the whack of a stick, and back away from pressure on the reins only to tell him later on that he needs to move forward into the contact, bend to turn, and step through the rein aids?

3. Since it is supposed to prepare a rider for 'what to do next' why have we not seen any riders doing the 'next'? Where are the riders who learned Parelli, and trained a horse only with Parelli competing at and how are they doing?

Point #2 is interesting. I'm not sure about the idea that PNH is good to prepare horses for traditional competition. Perhaps it can work, but I agree some modification would have to be in order.

Point #3: Your mistake here (a seemingly common one) is assuming that all horsepeople aspire to competition and use that as a guage of success. There are many other ways to measure accomplishments. I believe you'll find a lot of PNH people eschew competition, and there's nothing wrong with that. They can still accomplish a lot, even if no one is watching. And surely personal happiness and fulfillment is as important as public success? Just a thought.

Anyhow, I have a horrible feeling that my attempts at encouraging open-mindedness are really only perpetuating the spite here. In the interest of Dressage, I think it's high time we let this thread die. :D

[slc2]

Since they teach everything to do with dressage incorrectly, and can't do it correctly themselves, it would take more than 'some modification'. compared to traditional dressage, and compared to what the judges are looking for, it's a train wreck, a mess. the basic fundamentals that dressage is founded on, the simplest things one looks for in an intro level test at the most basic levels of competition, they are just not at all present, not in any way, shape or form, in what parelli's, either of them, teach or do.

in fact it's SO bad that i wince with embarrassment for them every time i see them do their 'dressage'. it's pitiful. when i see a child fall off a bike, or a gymnast fall off the parallel bars onto their face, i get a pain in my wrists, 'sympathy pain', my SO jokingly calls it. when i watch them ride, the pain is really sharp, so, for me, it's just like watching a toddler fall off a tricycle on to the gravel, watching them ride and ah...'teach'.

[egontoast]

I was laughing so hard at how WZ was actually frustrated and showing some of it during Linda's lesson when he's desperately trying to get her to get Remmer in front of her leg by doing "mediums" and every time she uses her leg, her hands shoot forward and out goes his nose and kerplunk on his forehand and he rushes away down the

I bet WZ is kicking himself for hooking up with them, even briefly. He's very clear and consistant on the long rein is not a kind rein.

[zagafi]

When I was reading the book I don't remember any foot or leg flapping. :)

I would like to see the written instructions for that 'phase' if possible. sylvia

I never said I read it. I observed it personally as a gal was working for her Level 2 or 3(don't recall which, though) "certification". The instructor was a 5 star, too, so I trust that they were, in fact, following the correct steps as put forth by the Parellis.

[egontoast]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6vUCn6d2yA

[dutchmike]

Interview with one of Parreli's horses ;).

http://www.superstarsofhorsetraining.com/horse-interview/screensaver.html

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

You know, maybe we'd get more dressage rider wanna be's, if we too marketed a booklet and every time you did something, um, dressagy, you could put in a sticker. We could have piaffing horse stickers.

Level One: Pick up reins without changing your seat and forcing horse onto forehand.


Bingo! put in the piaffing horse sticker.

Then I could go to shows and clinics and show everyone my book full of stickers.

And...and...if you fill up the level one book, maybe you could buy a piaffing horse patch you could sew on your saddle pad? Like girl scouts, "I earned this badge?"

just a thought...USDF types, take notice.

[egontoast]

http://www.anrc.org/article.asp?id=53

new DVDS Coming soon

Parelli and Balkenhol!
Parelli and Schumacher!
Parelli and ANKY!
Parelli Sings!- duets with Willie Nelson, Pavarotti,Celine Dion
Parelli Sews! -designing curtain flounces with Martha
Opra and Parelli- The Armwrestling Sessions



$$$$$$

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I can't decide which of the DVDs I like best, but the latter three...oh the possibilities!

I have to tell you, coffee spewed all over the poor new(ish) keyboard. I have got to learn to shove in the keyboard drawer when I read these posts.

[TBROCKS]

A friend of mine took me one year too. Everyone was oohing and ahhing over Linda's "falling over the shoulder with counter-flexion and inside hand crossing the wither with weight in the outside seatbone" attempt at a half-pass... when she missed her change after that she had this "oh, that was me! I just have to figure out what I'm doing..." DUH!!!!!! Out they drug the cow barrels so she could have her horse anticipate a jump after her crooked sideward drift and he would change in spite of her. The crowd was all a flutter over how "natural" this whole scenario was since she was just "playing" with her horse and not getting mad at him or using a whip or spur. To which I had a thank goodness since it is entirely her fault for not having any concept of how to bend her horse.

Then she did at one point actually pick up the reins a teensy bit to which he tightened his back, shortened his neck and started to hover in a passagey trot that was all tension and evasion with Linda beeming away like she had accomplished some great thing.

This same friend of mine just thinks Pat and LInda are the best riders on the WZ Dvd's. I was laughing so hard at how WZ was actually frustrated and showing some of it during Linda's lesson when he's desperately trying to get her to get Remmer in front of her leg by doing "mediums" and every time she uses her leg, her hands shoot forward and out goes his nose and kerplunk on his forehand and he rushes away down the longside. WZ is encouraging and and trying, but dang it I just want to yell at her, KEEP YOUR CONTACT!!! They finally give up on that and he goes to some half-pass to try to close the haunches some and there again is that inside hand over her outside thigh practically. Then Pat, could he be any more obvious to show Pat that he needs to get that mare around the right leg? and he keeps telling him way too politely not so much hand. Poor mare is gaping her mouth in that spade bit as he's using all right rein to accomplish the 'bend'.

and... all they can do is piaffe... there is not even a first level lengthening out of those horses. Have they never read even the most basic classical literature? If you can't lengthen you weren't really collected!

Long story short, when I hear comments they say about dressage it just makes me laugh. In a way I feel sorry for people who buy into it so deeply. Most I've met just simply don't know. They want to walk and trot on the trail and not get stepped on and not feel totally lost when their horse does get spooked or bothered and for a lot of them, it really does help with that. They are plenty fulfilled playing games and riding here or there. But, plenty of the students want more than that. At least a few years ago, much was made about getting through the levels program.

The big problem with the levels comes at the Level 3, which is the highest level of home study requires that the riders jump obstacles, do collected, medium and extended walk/trot/canter, SI/HI, half-pass in trot, half-pass in canter with flying changes, counter canter, turn on haunches, slide stops and all sorts of things. The assessment standards allow them to pass them by doing them as isolated tricks and most of them try to teach them that way without any preparation, no balance or bend in the horse. ITs ideal if the horse tucks his chin and holds "vertical flexion" when he does the tasks with aloop in the reins, and on and on. These riders get stuck because usually no one has told them they have a horse that simply can't do those tasks, or needs serious physical development via correct gymnastic riding, or they just don't ride well enough to help the particular horse they have and many of them seek outside help from dressage instructors who are beyond flabbergasted by them. PP has to make dressage look bad to keep these folks in his fold or make them afraid of looking outside the program for help.

Yes. Yes. YES!!! Very well put. We have the Level 2s at my barn attempting Level 3 and it is absolutely painful to watch.

[Donella]

This same friend of mine just thinks Pat and LInda are the best riders on the WZ Dvd's. I was laughing so hard at how WZ was actually frustrated and showing some of it during Linda's lesson when he's desperately trying to get her to get Remmer in front of her leg by doing "mediums" and every time she uses her leg, her hands shoot forward and out goes his nose and kerplunk on his forehand and he rushes away down the longside. WZ is encouraging and and trying, but dang it I just want to yell at her, KEEP YOUR CONTACT!!! They finally give up on that and he goes to some half-pass to try to close the haunches some and there again is that inside hand over her outside thigh practically. Then Pat, could he be any more obvious to show Pat that he needs to get that mare around the right leg? and he keeps telling him way too politely not so much hand. Poor mare is gaping her mouth in that spade bit as he's using all right rein to accomplish the 'bend'.

Oh good lord. They are such a joke..again, I am so embarrassed for them and anyone associated with them. WTF.

[Donella]

Don't forget to flap your arms!!
What is the piont of this from their perspective...does anyone know??? The first time I saw linda ( and the last time) she had someone doing this.

[arena run]

Point #2 is interesting. I'm not sure about the idea that PNH is good to prepare horses for traditional competition. Perhaps it can work, but I agree some modification would have to be in order.

Point #3: Your mistake here (a seemingly common one) is assuming that all horsepeople aspire to competition and use that as a guage of success. There are many other ways to measure accomplishments. I believe you'll find a lot of PNH people eschew competition, and there's nothing wrong with that. They can still accomplish a lot, even if no one is watching. And surely personal happiness and fulfillment is as important as public success? Just a thought.

Anyhow, I have a horrible feeling that my attempts at encouraging open-mindedness are really only perpetuating the spite here. In the interest of Dressage, I think it's high time we let this thread die. :D




Amen to that, Sister. ;) Competition is wonderful... but is not the end-all hallmark of an accomplished rider and well-trained horse. Not by a long shot. Point of fact, for some breeds 'competition form' could well-mean that the horse is barely manageble and is more intimidated than trained.

I do wish a more open-minded post would end the thing though..... *wishful thinking*

Hey, at least some of us maybe learned something from the whole thing. I know I did.... let me see now, what WAS that quote??.... oh yeah. Something about "thoughtfulness and intelligence", back on page 1 or 2. :D LOL LOLOLOLOL :D

Seriously though, we should all show just a tad more of those two qualities to everyone. sylvia

[Red Barn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6vUCn6d2yA

Okay, the sound is awful, but I think I heard it right . . . is he actually ragging on PONY CLUB, of all things?!

WTF?

[lstevenson]

I'm not sure about the idea that PNH is good to prepare horses for traditional competition. Perhaps it can work, but I agree some modification would have to be in order.


A little modification? It's more like scrapping it all and starting over. And it is much easier to learn things correctly the first time, then haveing to unlearn and relearn. Especially for the poor horse.



Point #3: Your mistake here (a seemingly common one) is assuming that all horsepeople aspire to competition and use that as a guage of success.



Forget about competition. But what about riding? If they don't become better riders what's the point? If they just want to do their silly tricks on the ground, why not get a dog instead?



Anyhow, I have a horrible feeling that my attempts at encouraging open-mindedness are really only perpetuating the spite here.



Open mindedness is very different from.......what's that word for when someone falls for an elaborate speil given by a con artist? Oh yeah, gullibility. ;)

[malarkey]

Okay, the sound is awful, but I think I heard it right . . . is he actually ragging on PONY CLUB, of all things?!

WTF?

yeah, is there a better version of this anywhere? I couldn't understand a word he was saying.

[Candle]

While I appreciate your experience... they do not constitue a complete world-view. *smile* There is one specific poster on this thread (rachel1) who knows 120 members of a Parelli club. That explodes these numbers quite a bit. According to her these horses are quite sane.

Um, you'll take her word for this and you don't even know her, but you're perfectly willing to discount other posters' personal experiences? How do you know what her definition of "sane" is, anyway?

[lesyl]

You know, maybe we'd get more dressage rider wanna be's, if we too marketed a booklet and every time you did something, um, dressagy, you could put in a sticker. We could have piaffing horse stickers.

Level One: Pick up reins without changing your seat and forcing horse onto forehand.


Bingo! put in the piaffing horse sticker.

Then I could go to shows and clinics and show everyone my book full of stickers.

And...and...if you fill up the level one book, maybe you could buy a piaffing horse patch you could sew on your saddle pad? Like girl scouts, "I earned this badge?"

just a thought...USDF types, take notice.
:lol::lol: Ok that is way to funny of an image for me. What about those of us who are sticker challenged (e.g get stickers, but can ever remember to put in book) or are well needle/thread challenged? Maybe we could just get tattoos, one horse shoe for completing walk/halt transition without completely loosing contact. Oh wait, that could require perhaps some rein which would dequalitfy us.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Just think...if your horse had to earn his shoes...

I think for a suitable amount of $$ you could get a parelli instructor to put the stickers in for you.

[Bellfleur]

This is just the most fun post I have read here. What a flipping riot !! I really needed a good laugh and am rarely out here but just happened on this one. Thanks to all for having me laughing so hard I had tears running down my face !!

Over the years some people have told me I needed to do this or that because they attended a PP clinic and this deep font of wisdom told them to. Most of the time I just looked at them with amazement (and thought You have got to be kidding!) and quietly went my own way. I just had the impression from the different things I had heard that this man was selling snake oil to the uninitiated but I always figured each to her own and they would figure it out after a few years.

About 2 years ago (I had just moved into my new farm) the neighborhood "Ladies Riding Club" brought cookies as a welcoming offering and invited me join their riding club. Very nice of them!! They also happened to mention that maybe they could "borrow / rent" my new facility for a clinic with this miracle worker. They told me that I would be able to do anything with my horses after they were here!! I think I just must have stared at them for a few minutes before I could mutter anything. Talk about an OH SH_T What Do I Say Now moment!! I think they were very insulted when I just said UMMMM AH UMMMMM I don't think I am quite ready for that yet.

At any rate, thanks again for the laughter!!

[egontoast]

yeah, is there a better version of this anywhere? I couldn't understand a word he was saying.

I think that's probably the best way to view it. I thought it was a parody but I guess that's really him? ? :eek:

I hate the way he uses the poor horse as a prop for his buffoonery.:mad:


He's not exactly 'openminded' is he?

[Rusty Stirrup]

I wish I could figure out how to post the you tube videos. All you have to do is watch and they speak for them selves. But you can't embarass some people. Especially when they are on the way to the bank.

[fetch33]

Natural Horsemanship parody http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foH4eTovuZU&NR=1

[rcloisonne]

A little modification? It's more like scrapping it all and starting over. And it is much easier to learn things correctly the first time, then haveing to unlearn and relearn. Especially for the poor horse.
Like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyozYRj2oz0&NR=1

or this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVmnHm9tQg&mode=related&search=


And my all time favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB-27upuUVY&mode=related&search=

[lstevenson]

Oh, please. :rolleyes:


That is not what real dressage is. Grasping at straws to argue for Parelli's methods?

[railijumper28]

I think this applies to the parelli's.

"Light travels faster than sound. Thats why people seem bright untill you talk to them."


hehehe.

Hahahaha. :lol::lol::lol: I agree.

[arena run]

Forget about competition. But what about riding? If they don't become better riders what's the point? If they just want to do their silly tricks on the ground, why not get a dog instead?

Open mindedness is very different from.......what's that word for when someone falls for an elaborate speil given by a con artist? Oh yeah, gullibility. ;)


Why not get a dog? Cause horses are so durn-much prettier than dogs. That's why. :)

I don't want to speak for Lancaster9 but I took the 'open-mindedness' comment to be more directed toward COTH posters who condemn things w/out understanding them rather than the poor folks who buy into a slick marketing scheme.



Um, you'll take her word for this and you don't even know her, but you're perfectly willing to discount other posters' personal experiences? How do you know what her definition of "sane" is, anyway?


Yep. Sure will. I don't discount the other personal experiences but, did you understand why I posted this comment to begin with? One person says (my summation) "Parelli followers are stupid and Parelli is a crock and I know this because I've met some who are."

I was simply saying that one should not take their own personal experiences and say that this constitutes a world-view --- especially seeing as how there are OPPOSING other personal expereriences in the same thead.

Sometimes things mean more than they words they're made of. :) sylvia



PS Gee, didn't I say I was bowing out? *sigh* I've really just got to not even look at this thread again. LOL

Carry on... carry on as ya'll see fit.

[dalpal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6vUCn6d2yA


Wow..that has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen.:(

[Donella]

I can't hear what he is saying but GOD that man has no buisness teaching people how to ride. He looks like a freaking sack of potatoes..what is with those two and that damn arm flinging!!!?

[Lancaster9]

I don't want to speak for Lancaster9 but I took the 'open-mindedness' comment to be more directed toward COTH posters who condemn things w/out understanding them rather than the poor folks who buy into a slick marketing scheme.

Yep fourh mom, you got it right, though to be clear I was advocating an openness toward other horsepeople regardless of our level of understanding or opinions about them. I probably should have said 'tolerance' rather than open-mindedness, but I'm speaking a different language here so it probably wouldn't have mattered. Funny how my posts were all about diplomacy and tact - not a single one about endorsing or even using Parelli.... yet they seemed to draw ire from some posters like they were some kind of lightning-rod. In any case, I AM done. I'm just truly sad to think that in 18 pages we've only had 3 or 4 voices recognize the dangers of hypocrisy. I had more hope for the dressage community, really I did. I thought perhaps our discipline could show ourselves to be leaders and educators rather than tit-for-tat finger-pointers. Especially since some of these posters are in the sort of professional position to know way better. But yes, have at it now, and enjoy. Just don't ever again spend time lamenting the image of dressage riders.

[slc2]

how about if i HAVE gotten into it, and STILL think it's bad? is that allowed?

[Atigirl]

I looked on their website and Linda mentioned before meeting Pat she didn't know that horses were prey animals!:( For goodness sakes most 5th graders know which animals are preditors and which ones are prey!

I am an event rider and I would hate to hear what PP thinks of us!!:D

[rcloisonne]

Oh, please. :rolleyes:


That is not what real dressage is. Grasping at straws to argue for Parelli's methods?
I don't give a fig about Parelli's methods. Looks like cowboy hocus pocus to me. The point, in case you missed it, is there's a lot wrong with some dressage methods and it's a good bet that most of the folks in those clips have broken their maiden at training level. :rolleyes:

He who liveth in glass houses and all...

[lstevenson]

I don't want to speak for Lancaster9 but I took the 'open-mindedness' comment to be more directed toward COTH posters who condemn things w/out understanding them rather than the poor folks who buy into a slick marketing scheme.



You obviously didn't get my point at all.

Open mindedness means being open to learning new ideas and concepts. So one can be open minded and willing to learn, and watch and listen to the Parelli spiel with the intention of learning new ideas, and still come to the conclusion that it is all nonsense.

You don't have to be closed minded to learn all about Parelli, and decide that it is stupid. You just have to be intelligent and knowledgable enough to make a decision one way or the other.

But I think gullible is a great word for the majority of the people who fall for his marketing ploys.


My point is that if YOU are saying the people who look down on the Parelli methods are closed minded , then I say the people who like Parelli are gullible. :D Get it?

[Mardi]

I couldn't understand a word he said, but even if I could...with all his yelling and running around, I'm not sure I'd want to....

Anyway it kind of looked like a comedy routine. Are all his sessions presented like that, or is what's shown on the video taken out of context ?

[egontoast]

I don't see how thinking that PP is an idiot is hypocrisy. He's an idiot. A wealthy small minded idiot.

[Donella]

It would be different if he understood even the basics of dressage and THEN said what he said. But in the statement he chose to insult our discipline, it becomes completely obvious that he is totally ignorant to what the basics of dressage even are..hence his insult only makes him look like a complete moron!! The problem is, it doesn't paint a good picture for the majority of his audience who are without a doubt a bunch of clingon greenhorns that don't know any better.

Most people who have owned or been around horses and have basic skills in these areas will have no problem grasping...and I mean truly grasping, what he is aiming to do, the basics of the program ect.

Being closed minded has nothing to do with it. I GET the parelli concepts..they are hardly rocket science. I also can CLEARLY see that neither of them are accomplished riders hence they have no buisness teaching other people how to become such. Again, nothing to do with not being able to understand him..and everything to do with calling it what it is..a very successful marketing ploy aimed at first time horse owners who don't know any better.

[egontoast]

Yes, I've used a roundpen with great success with one horse and learned some helpful things through another NH person but I don't think PP is the real deal at all.

He's a circus jerk IMHO.

[Red Barn]

Alright, I'm insane, but I listened to that damn thing 3 times(!)

That first section, with the backpack and the barrels, is apparently intended to be a humorous critique of "traditional" jumping form.

After all the hoopla, he says, "Yes Folks, that's what they teach in Pony Club!"

[STF]

I don't see how thinking that PP is an idiot is hypocrisy. He's an idiot. A wealthy small minded idiot.


Ahhh, the truth be told! :cool::lol::cool:

[belambi]

Interesting..excerpt from interview.. especially the bit about wormers

I'm Lisa Ross-Williams, host of the "If Your Horse Could Talk" radio show and I 'm honored to have the privilege to talk to Linda Parelli here at the 2002 Parelli Savvy Conference. "If Your Horse Could Talk" is a weekly radio show which Promotes Natural Horse Care Through Knowledge.
First Linda, thanks so much for inviting me into your beautiful house and taking time out of your crazy schedule. I know you are very busy. Let's jump right into this.

What is the main goal of the Parelli Natural Horsemanship program?

Linda:
To raise the level of horsemanship around the world.

Lisa:
I think you're definitely doing that.

Linda:
It is starting to happen. I also want people to realize what horsemanship constitutes. Because for the most part, there is no measure. Unless you're competing, people have no idea what means you're good or how much you can do with horses unless you're a professional trainer. In fact, nobody really has any type of program - unless they're following some specific discipline or focus. I think what this does is give people a focus even if they have no competitive goals - for the recreational riders who are in it for fun and don't want to go into competition. There are lots of things they can learn to do with their horse; on the ground, liberty, and riding. Even having a goal of being able to ride without a bridle is huge for a lot of people. But it's about 'who do you have to become' to be able to do that.

Lisa:
I think having fun is so important. I run into so many people who have horses and say they enjoy them, but when I see them together, it doesn't seem like fun for either horse or human.

Linda:
(Laughs) I was like that when I was riding dressage. I was obsessed about dressage and really being good. People would ask me why I did it and I'd say, "because it's fun", but whenever I'd see myself on video, it didn't look like fun. So I know exactly what you are talking about and really, when compared to the fun I have now with horses, it wasn't fun† but it was challenging.

Lisa:
This question is from Ed in Apache Junction, who is our special caller who calls into the show every week.

What's the first thing you'd tell a newcomer who is considering taking that first step into PNH?

Linda:
Take the first step and remember this is not a horse training program as much as it is a self-development program. Horses are fine and we need to know how to get our horses to want to be with us, to want to play with us rather than fall into all the arguments and difficulties that people tend to have. To me, it's don't go into this thinking, "well, this is about what I'm going to train my horse to do", but rather "how can I develop myself to where I can get horses to want to do all these spectacular things".

Lisa:
That's so true. I started PNH with a very difficult horse. In fact, two of your instructors advised me to get another horse; this one's a tough one. I was very emotional and would get angry, Rebel would then get angry and we'd both be standing there breathing hard. The program is so amazing because we both got emotional fitness along the way and just have a blast. Certainly I had to change because he was the type of horse you couldn't force or be unfair. If you tried, he'd fight rather than retreat.

Linda:
A lot of horses do and they are the ones labelled difficult. Basically, they are saying, "Hey, I need somebody who has it a little more together here, more knowledgeable, more savvy, and fair." This is all part of being a good leader. That's certainly another way I think about our program, Equine Leadership Training.

Lisa:
What's the biggest mistake people make when first starting PNH?

Linda:
Mistake. I find it hard to think of students as making mistakes. You can only make mistakes when you know better. So when you're learning something, how can you be making a mistake? You're experimenting. I think a lot of people are afraid of making mistakes; afraid of hurting their horse. Let me tell you--horses are more forgiving than people are. Horses will get over it. They read your intention is good. I think if I had to say do or don't do† Don't waste your time. Go at it every time you're with your horse, read up about it and keep moving forward. Some people think they didn't get this or that perfect. Level 1 is not about being perfect. You're not even going to think it's perfect at Level 3, but it's going to be fantastic. Just do what it says and move on. Don't be harder on yourself than we are because we're not looking for perfection.

Lisa:
Why aren't more dressage riders getting involved with the program? And do you plan to compete again?

Linda:
Hmm... let me take the easy one first. I don't know if I'm going to compete again. First of all, I lost the will to compete against other people and horses, and self- competition became more compelling to me. I wanted to see how good I could get and I choose to make my horse and my trainer my judges. So going into competition, you're up against fad and fashion, you're up against a lot of opinions that don't necessarily line up with my ideas. The things that often get rewarded in dressage these days, we're trying to get them out of horses. All that tension--a lot of that we do quite differently and we ask, "What's the ideal in a horse?" In the end, the goal is the same. We want to look great with lightness, exuberance and being able to do high level maneuvers, have absolute harmony and make it look invisible, but we don't want to do it with a horse that's emotionally frazzled because of it.

Why aren't more dressage riders taking up PNH? You'd have to ask them but I think I can make a pretty good guess. I think it's because in dressage, people get so obsessed with frame, the outline of the horse, how he's travelling, where his haunches should be, where his poll should be and all that kind of thing, which I'd call high level deportment. It's how you carry yourself in such a way that you're like a ballet dancer,- Well, because people get obsessed with the physical outline of the horse, we end up using all these gadgets on two and three year olds. To tie their heads down, lunge them in chambones and try to get their backs rounded so their hind legs come up underneath them, but when horses are forced and not emotionally involved, they have a lot of trouble with that. A lot of horses blow up. I don't like that physical force. When you look at our level 1 and 2 students, sometimes their horse's head is in the air, sometimes all over the place; †the horses hind legs are travelling out the back of him, there's no flexion through the body, but that's not what Level 1 is about. Level 1 is about respect and "let's stop arguing here". Level 2 is about emotional stability. Where you can give the horse some responsibility and say, "Hey, I'm not here to baby-sit your emotions, let me teach you how to get strong in yourself, so you can manage yourself." So in Level 1 and 2, we don't specifically cover how the horse should carry himself, but he changes because his mental and emotional state gets better. In Level 3 we start addressing flexion.

In dressage, flexion comes in really early and I do understand that for a horse to work correctly, he must be in the correct position, but if that means forcing the horse, I don't want to go there. We're always repairing blown-up horses that were so talented. We've got one now at this conference; they spent over $100,000 on it and here he is at our place because he was going to be destroyed. And all it was is that they forced him into flexion before they got his mind and emotions right. I think because the first couple levels of our program looks quite opposite to dressage, people don't think it has any relevance and I could see that. But, I've had world champion Olympians ride and feel my horses and say, "Oh my god, I've never felt a horse so soft and responsive." This is incredible and is why the O'Connors of the world and Leon Harrels and those kinds of people are getting attracted to what we do because they just think, "Imagine if we could have our horses doing all this by the time they're three or four years old and then just put the icing on them."

Lisa:
Susan from Surprise, Arizona says she sees many of the PNH students who have a great relationship with their horse, but are lacking in the riding department with no correct posture or alignment. When in the levels program is correct alignment and breathing addressed?

Linda:
Most of the way we've been developing this in our program is to give them tasks that improve their balance and sense of feel. It doesn't necessarily improve their deportment, but things like riding on a loose rein, riding with one rein, learning how to ride with your whole body and focus, how to bring your life up and down so you can influence your horse going fast or slow. Then in Level 2 we start getting people to ride more bareback. The great thing about bareback is you can't fake it. You can't hang onto your saddle horn, can't brace against your stirrups - you learn how to go with your horse. Then what happens is people start to get pretty good at that and get confident. We have people trotting and cantering, jumping bareback. -It's great. They really are over their confidence and balance issues, but it's still not deportment. Level 3 is where it really becomes critical because in order to get the horse to carry himself with vertical flexion, the human can't sit there and slouch and brace their back on a horse because neither is going to work. So in our program, we give them ideas about the riding styles, but we really only just found the way we want to teach it. I've discovered this through a combination of things, one of course is Pat. Another is being so obsessive myself that I want to learn how to be in absolute unison with my horse when he moves. So I'd watch him when I was on the ground playing with him, at liberty and watch his back and think "How can I make my butt do what his back is doing?"? I'd spend hours and hours on passenger lessons and lots of people would comment that my dressage background must have helped. Actually, it was the hardest thing to get over because I was too rigid, too controlling and I didn't learn how to really feel the horse. I had to get rid of all that in order to get to natural.

Then there's Carol Brett and Leslie Ann Taylor from Balanced Saddle System. I got to know them about three years ago and we discovered many interesting things then, but last year we got together and talked in detail; it's all about the Feldenkrais Method, body awareness and balance. I spent five days with them in January and we did a lot of simulations that were just mind- blowing. It helped me to understand some of the things I wanted to be able to do; going toward dressage but not the old, stiff patterns. The result was phenomenal. The students we've been teaching this were asking, "Why didn't we get this before?" It's because we didn't have the system together. So instead of going off half-baked, we just didn't say anything beyond what we do about becoming part of the horse. But now we really have some tools and you'll see it tomorrow in the "Riding with Fluidity". So how is that for a round about answer? I can't go into a lot of detail, but it is based on the Feldenkrais method with what the Balanced Saddle System people are doing, plus Pat's methodology with really learning how to be one with the horse. Great Stuff!

Lisa:
Can you explain the progression of the equipment and when you know you've earned the right to go up to that next level?

Linda:
How do I put this simply? In our program we try to guide you step by step through the booklets; so if you've been following the booklets, there's a point in time when it says, "Now you are ready to start the snaffle." It is based on going through a series of check-off lists; Yep, I can do that, that, and this. The very short answer is your horse no longer argues with you and everything can be done at phase 1 or 2; if everything can be done at phase 1 or two in a hackamore, you're ready for a snaffle.

Lisa:
What are some of the signs you are not ready? I know some people probably get in a hurry; they want to get through those levels. They are still in that competition or ego mode and it's a race to try to get through the levels, which may result in them going into the snaffle before they're ready. They then start seeing the head tossing and fighting so that's a pretty good sign that you're not ready, right?

Linda:
Yes, then you say, "ok, I'll go back to the hackamore" because all that's telling you is you're using the reins too much and not using your body enough. We put all that into our program and tell people about that. Here's a good example:

I should have had Siren in the curb bit years ago, but because we were so busy and I was always in demos, lots of bridles stuff, I just didn't take him forward in his education. I started thinking now that I was doing more collection, maybe I should be looking at the curb bit to improve that; to have the right tool for the right job. At that point, the snaffle was too sloppy and my horse was saying, "I need more accuracy here." So one day, I was doing finesse stuff with Siren at a fairly high level and he started to have trouble with the snaffle. I examined myself and thought, "Am I being too heavy?" "What am I doing?" I talked to Pat about it and asked if he thought Siren was telling me to go to the next tool.? Pat said, "Well, he probably is and there's one way to find out. Do it. You'll know very quickly." I put him in a curb, but with a bosalito and for the first couple of rides I hardly used it. Just a bit here and there and mainly used the bosalito. The next time, I picked it up as if I'd been using it all the time and he went, "Thank you, you're not baby talking me anymore."

Conversely, with Remer, we've graduated Level 3 now and really only about a month ago. I wondered if he was ready because I wanted to do more engagement things. I put a very small shank bit in his mouth; in Australia it's called a Spanish snaffle. It's like a D-ring that you can put your reins lower on the bottom of the D to get a little more leverage if you want. He hated it! From the moment I touched it, he just went, "I don't understand this." That was a great lesson for me because my ambition got ahead; but it was a great experience because I understood what he was saying. I waited about six weeks and had more time with him, thinking about where I was taking him, and prepared him better. The next time I used it, he was great.

Lisa:
There's a good one. Listen to what your horse is saying. That's why I named the show "If Your Horse Could Talk".

Linda:
It's perfect. It's all about learning how to read their communication.

Lisa:
Let's talk a little bit about natural care practices. I was so excited to hear you do quite a bit naturally, care wise. Can you tell us about this? You don't chemically deworm your horses, just as I don't. Can you explain why you decided not to and what you're doing to keep parasites under control?

Linda:
I've actually not been worming my horses since 1987. Siren, who's 20 now, was last dewormed when he was nine. With my six horses back in Australia, I didn't use any chemical dewormers. That doesn't mean I just stopped, because you have to address why the worms are there in the first place. I did quite a bit of research on it with a human nutritionalist and told him there are a lot of problems horses tend to have on a regular basis and although my horses don't get most of them, I wanted to know what's going on. He told me to make him a list of these common problems and when he called back about three weeks later, he asked if horses have a lot of trouble with worms. I told him that yes, many horses had worm problems and that people are chemically deworming every six weeks or so, and then of course, the new daily wormers. Short story was the digestive system is not operating correctly and so the worms become part of breaking down what's going on in the intestinal track and they're there to help the process, not hinder it. Now the interesting thing is, when you have a really broken down digestive system, you get so infested with worms, it starts to damage the intestines. What we need to do is upgrade the whole intestinal track and then say, "Worms aren't necessarily the cause of all the problems, but maybe they are part of the symptoms from a bigger picture."

I was using his methods in Australia, but came out here. The next thing you know, we've got 50 to 100 horses and I couldn't do the program with all these horses. I could keep my small herd going, but hadn't managed horses on that big a scale. I started to see worm infestation problems and a whole host of other things; dry coats, colics on a frequent basis, shelly feet, strangles, and all the stuff people tend to have. I was really on the research trail trying to find out what was going on and what the horses were missing. When I was in Australia, someone gave me a book to read "Natural Horse Care" by Pat Coleby. I opened the book while lying in bed and thought, whew, this is interesting. When I got to the page that listed all the symptoms according to certain deficiencies in minerals, it was text book for what the horses were experiencing. One of the symptoms of copper deficiency are worm infestations, as well as things like wood chewing, fungal infections, cribbing, abscesses, dry coats, loss of hair color and many others. Textbook for what our horses were starting to exhibit on a larger and larger scale every year since living on this property. With some research on the property, we found there was a massive copper deficiency.

We put the horses on Pat Coleby's system with a very basic mineral supplementation; not using chelates, but natural occurring minerals. Within three months our horses were transformed; coats changed, tails changed, feet changed and we stopped getting strangles. In the past, we had foals born with contracted tendons. Two foals crops now, we've had only one very slight case, 0 worm counts. If we do have any count at all, it's very low. So now, all of our ranch horses haven't been dewormed in two years and they've never been healthier. We have over 100 horses on the ranch with extremely low vet bills. Very exciting.

Lisa:
I heard through the grapevine that you might be coming out with some sort of mineral type product. Is this true?

Linda:
We always get asked, "How come your horses look so good?, You've been on the road for 12 weeks, traveling thousands of miles - your horses look amazing. What are you doing?" I tell them about the book, but they can't seem to find all the minerals. So there's a feed company that wants to put it together for us. Rumors are true. When it's going to happen, I don't know.

Lisa:
Let's chat about vaccinations. I know when students bring their horses to the ISC, you recommend that they have certain vaccinations. What about the people who choose not to vaccinate their horses?

Linda:
You just write us a letter. We're actually not afraid of our horses getting infected with things. We don't vaccinate our horses and we travel with them everywhere. We have about 1000 horses come through this place every year and our horses don't get sick because they have healthy immune systems. We've had situations before where people have brought their horses here and they contracted strangles; they might be the only horse on the ranch that gets it, but we get blamed. It's more about people protecting themselves and not giving us a hard time over it. But we do have people write letters saying they don't believe in vaccinations and don't want to do it and that's fine as long as we have your letter. It's not about us being worried about our horses - this is you protecting yourself.

Lisa:
Does PNH offer any type of a scholarship program for some of the backyard horse owners who are on a really tight budget who may not be able to afford to come up there? Do you have a scholarship program in place?

Linda:
We have one being put in place. It should be in place for next year. I can't tell you exactly when. Stay tuned.

Lisa:
Does PNH support any horse rescue or youth organizations?

Linda:
We support a lot in so many different ways. We're involved with several horse rescue operations and often donate to them, giving them the education programs, and instructors have donated their time to go and help.

Youth organizations - we've been doing more and more with 4-H. There's a 4H group that wants to totally take on Parelli instruction and that's just near us, so we're sending instructors to keep that whole program going. We also give a major discount to 4H students to where they save something like $100 on our kits.

Lisa:
I sure wish this stuff had been around when I was a kid. Although, I did do much of the same thing without knowing, because I was a kid just trying to have fun.

Linda:
Most of us were, but then it gets knocked out of you.

Lisa:
Can you imagine? Well, I guess you're already seeing this.

Linda:
Yes, there are actually clubs in Australia that call themselves Parelli Pony Clubs. They've gone our route because they're sick of having to fight with people who don't agree. So rather than trying to fit in, they just started their own.

Lisa:
What is your definition of a true horseman?

Linda:
Wow. He's just about a horse; thinks like a horse, is a horse, just walks funny.

Lisa:
How many true horsemen do you know?

Linda:
Not very many and I know them mainly through Pat; Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt. There are people who are extraordinary with horses in many different ways, but for all-around ; on the ground, being able to handle difficult horses, you name it. That's the way I think of it. Certainly there are people who are just phenomenal experts in circus, or cutting, like Leon Harrel and some of the dressage masters;, it's just brilliant.

But I think of a horseman as all around; colts, difficult horses, everything, and in fact on that note, I had a student at the ranch ask me who I thought was the best rider, rider not horseman. I said Pat and he went "Oh". I think he was thinking everyone but Pat. I told him I don't really look at anyone else, because Pats my model. If I start looking at other people and going, "Well, they're a pretty good rider or they do that really good", then to me my goals are not high enough if I'm watching anyone below Pat. Also my definition of a good rider is somebody who can ride everything and we're talking broncs, a colt on his first ride, and horses at different stages of their foundation; he can ride Grand Prix dressage horses, cutting horses, reining maneuvers. So to me that's a great rider. Because you can be so adaptable, so flexible, and be able to generate all those things within a horse. But that's a rider, not a horseman.

So I think of a horseman in the same way but now let's talk behaviorally, different disciplines, and different stages; mentally, emotionally, and physically. I think the horsemen I quoted don't have their horses all coddled up in stalls and blanketed. Some people think that's good care and Pat would say, "I would rather see a horse be mentally and emotionally taken care of rather than just physically"; all too often it's just the opposite. Lots of physical care but the mental and emotional part is out the window. Naturally, you want all three; mental, emotional, and physical, and spiritual, really.

Lisa:
If there were one thing and only one thing you could tell every horse owner out there, what would it be?

Linda:
Get as much savvy as possible. Your horse will appreciate it.

[Kathy Johnson]

One of the first steps a cult leader takes is to plant seeds of doubt in a person's mind. So, if Pat Parelli rags on Pony Club and dressage and rein length and longeing and so on, it's the first step toward instilling doubt. If people begin to doubt the "other" way, they become insecure and so more susceptible to the cult's methods. PP's strategies go beyond marketing, he goes well into authoritarian hierarchies that make up cults. All the hogwash about what makes up a "true horseman" establishes PP as the one and only, and so the cult leader.

I have heard it whispered that one of our well known natural horsemen (and I don't recall which one) hired a marketing guru from France, a marketeer who bases his strategies on the study of, you guessed it, cults.

I find it worrisome and negligent that "We don't vaccinate our horses and we travel with them everywhere." I think the answer is here: "We've had situations before where people have brought their horses here and they contracted strangles; they might be the only horse on the ranch that gets it, but we get blamed." Well, yeah, if you don't vaccinate, travel everywhere with your horses, and horses catch strangles at your ranch, I think there might be a cause for blame.

I also find it worrisome that they don't worm and are advocating this malarkey to others. And yet there was zippo mention of the how to address the fly problem that actually causes worms (not a "broken down digestive system" which their new product is surely designed to fix.)

Oh well, I'm sure that if I think they are both dangerous crackpots, it just means I'm not a true horseman.

[dalpal]

I looked on their website and Linda mentioned before meeting Pat she didn't know that horses were prey animals!:( For goodness sakes most 5th graders know which animals are preditors and which ones are prey!

I am an event rider and I would hate to hear what PP thinks of us!!:D


Sing it with me.."are you smarter than a 5th grader" :lol::lol::lol::lol:

[egontoast]

That first section, with the backpack and the barrels, is apparently intended to be a humorous critique of "traditional" jumping form.

After all the hoopla, he says, "Yes Folks, that's what they teach in Pony Club!"

And theHighly Intelligent Crowd (people who could not get into that day's Jerry Springer taping) positively HOWL with laughter. har har har. , bwhahaha ..slapping the very knees out of their Vintage 501 artificially distressed acid washed jeans while sipping their mocha pomegranate gucci lattes .

NOW!

Let's show those so called pony clubbers how to back up a horse by kicking him the chest with your heels while shaking a Highly Valueabull Expensive ...er...orange stick ( insert link to virtual cash register) in his face!! Cross my palm with silver cumulatively and severally henceforth indefinitely and I'll deliver The Secret. :cool: maybe.:cool:

[Red Barn]

Mr/Ms Toast,

I do not believe the very diplomatic Lancaster would be at all pleased with your tone.

[lstevenson]

Mr/Ms Toast,

I do not believe the very diplomatic Lancaster would be at all pleased with your tone.



:lol:

[lstevenson]

Linda:
I've actually not been worming my horses since 1987. Siren, who's 20 now, was last dewormed when he was nine.



Linda:
We don't vaccinate our horses and we travel with them everywhere.




Wow, another reason to have absolutely no respect for them! That is highly irresponsible! :mad:

If they travel with their unvaccinated horses and have one of their horses get sick and pass something around, they should be held liable.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Linda:
Take the first step and remember this is not a horse training program as much as it is a self-development program. Horses are fine and we need to know how to get our horses to want to be with us, to want to play with us rather than fall into all the arguments and difficulties that people tend to have. To me, it's don't go into this thinking, "well, this is about what I'm going to train my horse to do", but rather "how can I develop myself to where I can get horses to want to do all these spectacular things".

Um, guess I can't be a Parelli person. Ted likes to play "bite the muzzle" and "nip the butt" with his horsie friends and I am just not into that.

Lisa:
That's so true. I started PNH with a very difficult horse. In fact, two of your instructors advised me to get another horse; this one's a tough one. I was very emotional and would get angry, Rebel would then get angry and we'd both be standing there breathing hard. The program is so amazing because we both got emotional fitness along the way and just have a blast. Certainly I had to change because he was the type of horse you couldn't force or be unfair. If you tried, he'd fight rather than retreat.

I am now very worried that both Ted and I lack emotional fitness. Shoot. Here's something I can't blame on my asthma.


Linda:
A lot of horses do and they are the ones labelled difficult. Basically, they are saying, "Hey, I need somebody who has it a little more together here, more knowledgeable, more savvy, and fair." This is all part of being a good leader. That's certainly another way I think about our program, Equine Leadership Training.

Gee, I think Ted was thinking more along the lines of, "I want someone who won't beat the crap oiut of me." Or maybe not. Maybe he was just thinking, "I want someone who understands my inner need for marshmallow peeps."


Linda:
Hmm... let me take the easy one first. I don't know if I'm going to compete again. First of all, I lost the will to compete against other people and horses, and self- competition became more compelling to me. I wanted to see how good I could get and I choose to make my horse and my trainer my judges. So going into competition, you're up against fad and fashion, you're up against a lot of opinions that don't necessarily line up with my ideas. The things that often get rewarded in dressage these days, we're trying to get them out of horses. All that tension--a lot of that we do quite differently and we ask, "What's the ideal in a horse?" In the end, the goal is the same. We want to look great with lightness, exuberance and being able to do high level maneuvers, have absolute harmony and make it look invisible, but we don't want to do it with a horse that's emotionally frazzled because of it.

I guess I am not really a dressage rider either. Not only am I not a fashion plate, but when we'd ride outside sometimes I would fall asleep waiting for my next class. Too much tension does that to you.



Why aren't more dressage riders taking up PNH? You'd have to ask them but I think I can make a pretty good guess. I think it's because in dressage, people get so obsessed with frame, the outline of the horse, how he's travelling, where his haunches should be, where his poll should be and all that kind of thing, which I'd call high level deportment. It's how you carry yourself in such a way that you're like a ballet dancer,- Well, because people get obsessed with the physical outline of the horse, we end up using all these gadgets on two and three year olds. To tie their heads down, lunge them in chambones and try to get their backs rounded so their hind legs come up underneath them, but when horses are forced and not emotionally involved, they have a lot of trouble with that. A lot of horses blow up. I don't like that physical force. When you look at our level 1 and 2 students, sometimes their horse's head is in the air, sometimes all over the place; †the horses hind legs are travelling out the back of him, there's no flexion through the body, but that's not what Level 1 is about. Level 1 is about respect and "let's stop arguing here". Level 2 is about emotional stability. Where you can give the horse some responsibility and say, "Hey, I'm not here to baby-sit your emotions, let me teach you how to get strong in yourself, so you can manage yourself." So in Level 1 and 2, we don't specifically cover how the horse should carry himself, but he changes because his mental and emotional state gets better. In Level 3 we start addressing flexion.

Uh oh. In trouble again. I thought it was always about developing self carriage even on the ground, from the very beginning, and even if you're just walking to the next aisle. I never once asked Ted about his emotional stability. I thought that because he doesn't spook he was at peace with his Inner Horse.


Susan from Surprise, Arizona says she sees many of the PNH students who have a great relationship with their horse, but are lacking in the riding department with no correct posture or alignment. When in the levels program is correct alignment and breathing addressed?

Linda:
Most of the way we've been developing this in our program is to give them tasks that improve their balance and sense of feel. It doesn't necessarily improve their deportment, but things like riding on a loose rein, riding with one rein, learning how to ride with your whole body and focus, how to bring your life up and down so you can influence your horse going fast or slow. Then in Level 2 we start getting people to ride more bareback. The great thing about bareback is you can't fake it. You can't hang onto your saddle horn, can't brace against your stirrups - you learn how to go with your horse. Then what happens is people start to get pretty good at that and get confident. We have people trotting and cantering, jumping bareback. -It's great. They really are over their confidence and balance issues, but it's still not deportment. Level 3 is where it really becomes critical because in order to get the horse to carry himself with vertical flexion, the human can't sit there and slouch and brace their back on a horse because neither is going to work. So in our program, we give them ideas about the riding styles, but we really only just found the way we want to teach it. I've discovered this through a combination of things, one of course is Pat. Another is being so obsessive myself that I want to learn how to be in absolute unison with my horse when he moves. So I'd watch him when I was on the ground playing with him, at liberty and watch his back and think "How can I make my butt do what his back is doing?"? I'd spend hours and hours on passenger lessons and lots of people would comment that my dressage background must have helped. Actually, it was the hardest thing to get over because I was too rigid, too controlling and I didn't learn how to really feel the horse. I had to get rid of all that in order to get to natural.

Wow, This is fabulous So if I do level one, where my horse and I stop arguing, like he wants the whole box of peeps, and I say no, you can only have 3 chix, then I do level two, where we attain emotional stability --- is this just for horses or can adolescents do it too? -- should I just give up learning how to ride so as to maximize his physical development in favor of developing emotional stability? Hey Ted - sorry I slammed on your back there in that down transition, but hey - you're emotionally stable, and you understand I only did it because my Aunt Freda never got me Pancho for my birthday when I was 8.



How do I put this simply? In our program we try to guide you step by step through the booklets; so if you've been following the booklets, there's a point in time when it says, "Now you are ready to start the snaffle." It is based on going through a series of check-off lists; Yep, I can do that, that, and this. The very short answer is your horse no longer argues with you and everything can be done at phase 1 or 2; if everything can be done at phase 1 or two in a hackamore, you're ready for a snaffle.

Damn. We started with a snaffle. No wonder Ted is emotionally unstable. I wonder if I should do Feng Shui on his Herm Sprenger KK ultra?


Lisa:
There's a good one. Listen to what your horse is saying. That's why I named the show "If Your Horse Could Talk".

Linda:
It's perfect. It's all about learning how to read their communication.

So, if Ted salivates when I offer up some Neccos or a peep...does this mean he is emotionally unstable? That in truth, he really wants to jump a picnic table?



Linda:
I've actually not been worming my horses since 1987. Siren, who's 20 now, was last dewormed when he was nine. With my six horses back in Australia, I didn't use any chemical dewormers. That doesn't mean I just stopped, because you have to address why the worms are there in the first place. I did quite a bit of research on it with a human nutritionalist and told him there are a lot of problems horses tend to have on a regular basis and although my horses don't get most of them, I wanted to know what's going on. He told me to make him a list of these common problems and when he called back about three weeks later, he asked if horses have a lot of trouble with worms. I told him that yes, many horses had worm problems and that people are chemically deworming every six weeks or so, and then of course, the new daily wormers. Short story was the digestive system is not operating correctly and so the worms become part of breaking down what's going on in the intestinal track and they're there to help the process, not hinder it. Now the interesting thing is, when you have a really broken down digestive system, you get so infested with worms, it starts to damage the intestines. What we need to do is upgrade the whole intestinal track and then say, "Worms aren't necessarily the cause of all the problems, but maybe they are part of the symptoms from a bigger picture."

For real now. Jokes aside. This woman doesn't have a second grader's understanding of biology.


Lisa:
I heard through the grapevine that you might be coming out with some sort of mineral type product. Is this true?

Oh, jeez. Now they're milking the pharmaceuticals aspect.


Lisa:
If there were one thing and only one thing you could tell every horse owner out there, what would it be?

Linda:
Get as much savvy as possible. Your horse will appreciate it.[/quote]


What? No peeps?!

[lesyl]

I am starting to see the Parelli pattern:
1 - Create connection with audience by claiming to have been just like them. Better if you had to work against the "fasion and fad" tides of the day as that makes you possibly appear more insightful, not just following the crowd
2 - Come up with difficult situation that your method alone was successful; and for a fee will share with you the lucky listener.
3 - Create need for special equipment
4 - Repeat
Maybe this is a form of training, but I am not sure if is for horses or people. Typically this is pretty similar to "join-up" marketing calls and emails one receives.

[dalpal]

I am starting to see the Parelli pattern:
1 - Create connection with audience by claiming to have been just like them. Better if you had to work against the "fasion and fad" tides of the day as that makes you possibly appear more insightful, not just following the crowd
2 - Come up with difficult situation that your method alone was successful; and for a fee will share with you the lucky listener.
3 - Create need for special equipment
4 - Repeat
Maybe this is a form of training, but I am not sure if is for horses or people. Typically this is pretty similar to "join-up" marketing calls and emails one receives.

LOL!!! and to add to this...

That Youtube tape was truly one of the dumbest things I have ever seen...it's almost as if He said..."OMG, they actually think I'm funny"..you know, like the kid in class who suddenly gets attention from his classmates and then he continues to be obnoxious for the attention.

I couldn't understand if he purposefully made that horse rear or if something he did caused the horse to rear.....but why, WHY would you be encouraging crap like that in a seminar where you are supposedly teaching people to "be in harmony with their horses"

Either that or there was a keg of Bud in the background that you couldn't see on the tape. :yes:

[kkate]

How long this Parelli marketing frenzy will go on, and how long it will take till some of his followers finally get a clue that he is a phony. But will they then just move on to the next greatest thing?

I have a friend who I don't even know if I can call her a close friend anymore. She started the Parelli program, and now whenever I see her, she has this air of superiority complete with her Parelli ball cap, like she is somehow better than I am.

But I am the one who is actually riding my horse. Yes, we've been a mess at the two local shows I brought my mare to this summer, though the 2nd one she behaved so, so much better. We weren't by any means pretty, but we did manage to go around the ring and I didn't fall off, and we didn't cause anyone else complications.

I've know her for almost 10 years, and it comes to a Parelli difference of opinion. We've ridden together a lot, so to see such a change after being inducted into Parelli is sad to see.

Who has Parelli friends that you are actually able to stay friends with when you are anti-Parelli? It isn't like we argued over it, though I teased her a few times, nothing remotely vicious.

Me: Are you teaching her how to play hoops?
She: What?
Me: Are you teaching her to play hoops? You know the big green ball.

Just wondering how many friendship have ended or cooled off considerably over Parelli views? Do they just stop being a friend since you don't agree?

[Reiterin]

I have a friend who I don't even know if I can call her a close friend anymore. She started the Parelli program, and now whenever I see her, she has this air of superiority complete with her Parelli ball cap, like she is somehow better than I am.

But I am the one who is actually riding my horse. Yes, we've been a mess at the two local shows I brought my mare to this summer, though the 2nd one she behaved so, so much better. We weren't by any means pretty, but we did manage to go around the ring and I didn't fall off, and we didn't cause anyone else complications.

I've know her for almost 10 years, and it comes to a Parelli difference of opinion. We've ridden together a lot, so to see such a change after being inducted into Parelli is sad to see.

Who has Parelli friends that you are actually able to stay friends with when you are anti-Parelli? It isn't like we argued over it, though I teased her a few times, nothing remotely vicious.

Me: Are you teaching her how to play hoops?
She: What?
Me: Are you teaching her to play hoops? You know the big green ball.

Just wondering how many friendship have ended or cooled off considerably over Parelli views? Do they just stop being a friend since you don't agree?


Pat tells his students that they "can't soar with the eagles if they are hanging around with turkeys." Sorry Kkate, but you are obviously a turkey. ;)

Funny thing. I went as my friends groom to a sport horse breed show recently and these women were competing and actually wore their Parelli shirts and hats. They weren't any better behaved than any other horse there and they weren't even showing them off. You know how the big time handlers really trot them out and they are a bit rambuncious. These ladies would keep stopping on the triangle any time the horses approached a real trot. Then they are over waiting and I swear if I saw one of them flip that heavy metal snap up under the chin of one of those horses one more time for simply wanting to rub a fly away (probably don't use flyspray either) *grr*

Did you know, at Parelli clinics, they actually tie the halters to fences and practice hitting the posts and rails with those metal snaps so they can target the underside of the horse's jaw with them? The theory being you have to be able to be as alpha as a mare kicking the other horse and you could never do as much damage! There was a big deal at our local tack store a couple of years ago about a horse who had had its teeth roots broken by getting a "phase 4" from the snap.

[TheOtherHorse]

...

Who has Parelli friends that you are actually able to stay friends with when you are anti-Parelli? It isn't like we argued over it, though I teased her a few times, nothing remotely vicious.

Me: Are you teaching her how to play hoops?
She: What?
Me: Are you teaching her to play hoops? You know the big green ball.

Just wondering how many friendship have ended or cooled off considerably over Parelli views? Do they just stop being a friend since you don't agree?

It is very difficult to maintain a good relationship with someone who is really into something that you are really opposed to. I have a good friend who is head over heels into the Parelli stuff, and I am... well... the opposite. :winkgrin: We manage to do okay as long as I don't engage in my anti-Parelli talk with her. You have to basically just accept the fact that your friend views the world from a completely different (and delusional :lol:) view than you do, and then decide whether you can look past that and still be friends with her. There is nothing you can do to make her see the light. That is something she has to come to on her own. I sometimes struggle with it in my friendship, but I know that the other things about my friend that I do like outweigh the Parelli differences. I just look the other way when she's playing her silly games, and she's learned not to try to push the program on me, so we do okay. :D

[slc2]

i think it's completely hysterical that people now wear their parelli hats to in hand shows. the world is going to he** in a bucket! :lol::lol:

[drsgerider1]

Wow, This is fabulous So if I do level one, where my horse and I stop arguing, like he wants the whole box of peeps, and I say no, you can only have 3 chix, then I do level two, where we attain emotional stability --- is this just for horses or can adolescents do it too?



Hahahahahhahahaha I nearly died laughing...

[Moll]

I think Parelli is like Obedience training for horses instead of dogs.

I want my horse to shine, not be a robot.

[Showjumper28]

They have a Parelli expert come to our barn once a week and do clinics, no at the barn believes in it (except the BM)so get mostly ship ins. The sad part... they are always amazed at how well behaved all my horses are and then they ask what "level" they are. LOL I just laugh and say I don't believe in Parelli and that my horses respect me and thats all there is to it. They get so insulted... LOL none of them can control their horses it so sad.

[purplnurpl]

if anyone read my Because the Mule Lady said so thread in Off Course you'll under stand this.


oh yes, I have her name and number now! I was at a feed store looking at the flyers while checking out.
there was an add for the Mule Lady!!! Complete with english attire on a spotted Donk.

and then next to it...

~Pat Parelli 3 Star Professional Trainer~

braaaaahahahahahahahah. it was an add for training. I actually snorted in public.
I guess 3 Star mean you REALLY know your stuff.

[NJRider]

i think it's completely hysterical that people now wear their parelli hats to in hand shows. the world is going to he** in a bucket! :lol::lol:

What is a Parelli Hat???! Will I look better in that than I do in a Derby? Sign me up! Anything to keep from looking like "Mr. Belvedere".

[slc2]

you won't look smarter in a parelli hat. au contraire.

[wlrottge]

you won't look smarter in a parelli hat. au contraire.

They should go ahead and shape it like a big white cone... so people can see what it really is from all sides and at long distances away ;)

[lstevenson]

They should go ahead and shape it like a big white cone... so people can see what it really is from all sides and at long distances away ;)



:lol: Do you mean like a dunce cap? :lol:

[spotted mustang]

I think he (or more likely she--PP was far less noxious in the pre-Linda days) must have been severely frightened by someone in a shadbelly and top hat as a young child.

Maybe a maitre 'd poured hot sauce over him or something

[danee]

How long this Parelli marketing frenzy will go on, and how long it will take till some of his followers finally get a clue that he is a phony.
Well, when their horses quit being so calm and confident that they never spook or quit liking their owners so much that they do amazing things at liberty, or when the horses stop being so coperative that they can be ridden safely with no tack in large areas, than maybe the people will decide that he is a fraud, but as long as the horses are convinced that Parelli is amazing, the humans will be too.




Who has Parelli friends that you are actually able to stay friends with when you are anti-Parelli? It isn't like we argued over it, though I teased her a few times, nothing remotely vicious.

Many Parelli followers are very sad that their friends totally estrange them the day they buy their first levels packet. sad.





There are good and bad students in dressage and Parelli. I'd like to think I"m a good one of both.

[Red Barn]

. . . as long as the horses are convinced that Parelli is amazing, the humans will be too.



Damn! I just KNEW I was missing a crack pipe.

[kkate]

[QUOTE=danee;2636402]


Many Parelli followers are very sad that their friends totally estrange them the day they buy their first levels packet.

I think it is the other way around. I never trashed her about it. When she first mentioned, I just asked if she had talked to the dressage instructor we were going to. I know she thinks he is a phony, and thought that since she "respected" our instructor so much that she might change her mind. She never contacted her. I had mentioned that she might want to search through COTH for people's experience...that never happened either.

I did ask her this spring if she wanted to ride...nope, her mare was this and that and she wanted to do more Parelli stuff with her, so I just said when she was ready to call. Never did.

I did see her riding ONCE this summer in her little make shift round pen. So I stopped and said hi. Noticed no helmet and did give her a jokingly hard time about her helmet, we've ALWAYS ALWAYS ridden in helmet. Asked how the mare was doing.

I guess Parelli doesn't wear a helmet, so that makes it okay if you are doing Parelli, because you know your horse will never ever spook. :no:

I decided that if she wanted to talk, it would be her turn to make contact. We shall see...

[dalpal]

[QUOTE=danee;2636402]Well, when their horses quit being so calm and confident that they never spook or quit liking their owners so much that they do amazing things at liberty, or when the horses stop being so coperative that they can be ridden safely with no tack in large areas, than maybe the people will decide that he is a fraud, but as long as the horses are convinced that Parelli is amazing, the humans will be too.






QUOTE]


Really, cause my mare didn't think too much of it. When her Parelli level one instructor ( a lady at my barn at the time) started the "circle game with her"...my mare was convinced it was more entertaining to rear up...which the Parelli one lady had no solution for except to shrug her shoulders. So my mare gave two hoofs down to Parelli system. :lol::lol::lol:

As I stated earlier in the thread, I own a carrot stick....I have the tapes too....but, after watching that youtube video, I don't think much of Mr. Parelli's "wealth of information"

[lstevenson]

Well, when their horses quit being so calm and confident that they never spook or quit liking their owners so much that they do amazing things at liberty, or when the horses stop being so coperative that they can be ridden safely with no tack in large areas, than maybe the people will decide that he is a fraud, but as long as the horses are convinced that Parelli is amazing, the humans will be too.



Too funny that you think that their horses like their owners, and that they think Parelli is amazing! I have quite the opposite opinion.

Because one of the things I find most funny about P's methods is that they call the nonsense they do with horses "games". I have yet to see a horse have fun. I think they hate doing all of those so called "games".

[zagafi]

I can honestly say I have a damaged friendship as a result of my friend "going Parelli" and my "anti-Parelli" views. This is an intelligent, thoughtful woman, but ye gods...say *anything* anti Parelli and it gets ugly. For whatever reason, if you're not with them, you're agains them. We can agree to disagree on any other topic, but Parelli? It's nuts.

She goes on about her "bond" with her horse, yet guess whose beastie comes flying up when her owner whistles? Yes, that would be mine. I don't need Parelli to bond. I need time, patience, kindness...and carrots don't hurt.

I'm fairly new to horse ownership (bought my first horse on my 40th b'day), but not to horses in general. Even *I* can see through the hype, for Pete's sake!

[danee]

kkate, I'm sorry to hear about that. Obviously I can in no way speak for your friend. I like to think the best in people, so maybe she feels odd, knowing tht you don't apporove of what she is really passionate about? Just starting Parelli, or NH in general, is a hard thing- it can be so different that it is difficult as a person to let go of past history and perceptions.

dalpal, there is no thing as a level 1 instructor. Maybe you meant a one star instructor, but they are not official "pros" and are not even allowed to accept money for training. Often people have horror stories about "PNH Pro's" when really the person is not even a level three grad! I'm not saying that is your case for sure, but it certainly sounds like many posters have experienced that problem. I give lessons and train, and since some of my students associate me with PNH they call me a PNH Pro and I am very quick to correct them, but I'm sure many trainers take advantage of that!

One or two or ten or twenty sessions of any program is not an indicator of the program. It isn't a quick fix. I have met many people who despite being PNH students, and believing in the program, never get to the meat and potatoes of it. Maybe it is their learning style, lack of time commitment, or lack of enough organization to learn progressivly from a DVD set...There are many many reasons why "the program" might not work for someone, without the program itself having to be the blame. Do you(rhetorical "you"- no one in particualr here!) think there are good dressage trainers who have students that aren't up their standards? Of course!

There are so many dresage trainers that I don't like. I may simply state to be careful, but I wouldn't sling mud. Why is it that people get in such a twist over PNH? I've seen bleeding spur marks and broken lips and hear people call it art!!!!! Certainly nothing Pat does is that offensive?

[BarbB]

I think it is interesting to watch. I went to a friend's barn this morning to check on her horse and there was the local Parelli trainer, complete with rope halter, carrot stick, funny hat and fascinated horse owners, teaching a young horse to load into a trailer. Young horse was not interested in loading.
They were still having fun at noon. And when I stopped in again this afternoon the horse was looking a little pissed, but the people were still quite chipper.

They did this last weekend with a different horse. Everybody was also having fun, horse did not seem to be in the spirit of the game but did get in the trailer before dark. We were a little put out that they were playing in the middle of the parking area and we had to drive a truck and trailer around them as we hauled her horse out and back in. But they seemed to need a lot of room.

Is there supposed to be an actual carrot on the end of that stick??

[dalpal]

OH and would someone explain to me about the "thrill" of riding with absolutely no tack. Personally, I prefer my saddle to my horse's bareback.:yes: Oh, and I really prefer to have some headgear/reins on him. :yes:

[jvanrens]

I don't give a fig about Parelli's methods. Looks like cowboy hocus pocus to me.

Damn, that's insulting to cowboys! :eek: ;)

[danee]

Oh, and I really prefer to have some headgear/reins on him.
And what would your horse prefer? If you are not physically controling your horse, why do you need them? Well, OK, yes I too like to use a bridle for refinement, but what about this does not look like fun!
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/newfave.jpgMe on Asia- 5 yo Friesian cross

[BarbB]

:lol:
that's either photoshopped (badly) or your horse has the oddest markings on it's head :lol:

But it's a lovely horse.

[Donella]

Ok seriously, I am going to say this again because some of you are missing something significant here:

Dressage, practiced according to the training scale ( which is what dressage actually is) produces equestrian perfection..ie spanish riding school, cadre noir ect.

PNH , practiced according to pat and linda parelli produces, at best, a horse that can play fetch with its owner. It also produces riders who cannot sit on their horses without looking like a sack of potatoes with wings ALA linda and pat parelli themselves.


You cannot compare people who want to do dressage but don't actually do it, to the parellis themselves, who no doubt are true to their own system.
Compare both in true form if you are going to compare.

[Red Barn]

:lol:
that's either photoshopped (badly) or your horse has the oddest markings on it's head :lol:


Good Heavens - you're right!

[kkate]

I can honestly say I have a damaged friendship as a result of my friend "going Parelli" and my "anti-Parelli" views. This is an intelligent, thoughtful woman, but ye gods...say *anything* anti Parelli and it gets ugly. For whatever reason, if you're not with them, you're agains them. We can agree to disagree on any other topic, but Parelli? It's nuts.

She goes on about her "bond" with her horse, yet guess whose beastie comes flying up when her owner whistles? Yes, that would be mine. I don't need Parelli to bond. I need time, patience, kindness...and carrots don't hurt.

I'm fairly new to horse ownership (bought my first horse on my 40th b'day), but not to horses in general. Even *I* can see through the hype, for Pete's sake!

Congrats on your first horse!! :) I too think this friendship is damaged, though I do hope at some point she'll come around. LOL...I can't imagine her inviting me to ride or have lunch with her "new P friends." I am not sure I could handle that much P, might be an intervention :lol:

[danee]

No, it is not photoshoped- cropped from its origonal version but that is it...
here are more- bridle-less and dressgae.

No the dressage isn't perfect, yes my leg has slipped forward, but it is certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/bigtrot.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/roundwalk.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/editname.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/bridlelesscanterasia.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/reach.jpg

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/bridle-lesstrotoutlaw.jpg This is a three year old one month under saddle.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/schwung2.jpg

[danee]

I don't know if it is a put down or a compliment that you guys think I photoshopped it!!!

I live the dream. I don't know why I feel the need prove my point- if everyone could do it it wouldn't seem so special anymore and I certainly don't want to argue about it. I'm going back to the friendly forum. If anyone has an interest in natural dressage I'm sure you'll find us, and we can have a constructive conversation there.

[dutchmike]

I don't know if it is a put down or a compliment that you guys think I photoshopped it!!!

I live the dream. I don't know why I feel the need prove my point- if everyone could do it it wouldn't seem so special anymore and I certainly don't want to argue about it. I'm going back to the friendly forum. If anyone has an interest in natural dressage I'm sure you'll find us, and we can have a constructive conversation there.

Sorry looks more like sausageeee to me. It amazes me that you talk as if you ride dressage but, it looks to me that it would be 1st level at it best if that. If you want to talk natural horseman ship then stay of your horse. There is nothing natural about sitting on a horse.

[TheOtherHorse]

No, it is not photoshoped- cropped from its origonal version but that is it...
here are more- bridle-less and dressgae.

um... so where did the neck rope go? Did it majikally disappear?!? :lol:

I don't know if it is a put down or a compliment that you guys think I photoshopped it!!!

I live the dream. I don't know why I feel the need prove my point- if everyone could do it it wouldn't seem so special anymore and I certainly don't want to argue about it. I'm going back to the friendly forum. If anyone has an interest in natural dressage I'm sure you'll find us, and we can have a constructive conversation there.

"Natural Dressage" :lol:

I went and saw your forum. Quite interesting. There are some cute tricks you guys are teaching your horses, but I'm not sure that it can be called proper dressage... :no:

If anyone would like to see why Parelli thinks contact is bad, check it out:
http://www.pro4s.nl/artofnaturaldressage/index.php


.

[fourhorses]

I will state up front that I am not a Parelli fan -- hate the gimmicky-ness, the hokey sales pitch, the blatant merchandising, and in my eyes unethical cult-mongering approach to the new and unaware horse owning crowd (I watch with growing horror as more and more 4-Hers and Pony Club kids have PNH preached to their young minds rather than the old, classical horsemen -- in any style of riding). And I find the Parelli's slamming of anything other than their own form of "training" completely distasteful. I have also seen a fair number of horses who have had PNH done with them (some have even been out to the ranch to work with P and L in person for the entire summer) -- the results are very mixed: some are outright horrors on the ground and under saddle, others are decent enough but not very responsive, through the aids horses who act like their minds are shut off rather than tuned in and are merely putting up with their riders -- not impressed with their physical development either, as most have very heavy muscling in the front and not much in the loin or rear; I have yet to witness one that is really a better horse for their PNH experience. So I don't choose to follow it; I prefer the traditional dressage, hunter, reining, and eventing training I have gotten so far as it has made more sense and worked quite well for me and mine -- but whatever floats someone's boat...as long as it isn't in my barn, my family, or my horses, what someone else does is their business.

That said, I could see where in theory approaching training with your horse as a "game" or "play" that should be enjoyable for both is a valuable lesson -- so often we drill our horses (no matter what our discipline) way too much and never take the time to think about their unique personalities or celebrate their individualism (modern society has a bad habit of doing this to humans too -- perhaps a reason for the P's popularity?). Still, I think if one listens/reads the classical trainers/texts (again, in whatever discipline) you would get much of the same as well as the missing ingredient of necessary and fair discipline, responsiblity, and respect which I sometimes find very lacking in PNH -- there comes a point where games/play degrade into a parody and that is disrespectful to both horse, rider, and horsemanship. It should never come to that.

I also will attest to the fact that atrocities to the horse and the art of riding/horsemanship are perpetrated by people from all disciplines within the horse world and not the sole property of the P's. So not casting stones here -- everyone at some point is guilty of a horsemanship transgression, and no discipline has the market share on these transgressions -- but the crux is to me, when the transgressions become the norm, then the discipline, the training style is no longer a valid method, rather a travesty.

And as an aside -- I wish the heck my poor, sharecropping, had to drop out of school in the sixth grade to support his family after his dad died, grandpa could've gotten in on this act back when he was a kid. He taught his little pinto pony all manner of tricks: standing on a bucket, coming when called, fetching things, being ridden bareback and bridleless over hill and dale, counting, and rearing on command. He did it all on his own too -- probably because he was young and loved spending time with his pony as there were no such things as radios, tvs, videos when he was a child, and as a country kid his only day to day playmates other than his siblings was the pony and the farm collie. Noone paid it much notice other than to take a few pictures, which we still have -- horses were for work then, tricks were just that. Perhaps if things had been differently, then he could have been the one to make a ton of money and lived a more comfortable lifestyle....

[danee]

That is not the right forum. I do use a bit. The Art of natural dressage folks don't, although I do stop in on that forum occasionally.

I don't always use a neck rope.

So who have I been so mean too? I'm not berating anyone. I'm not calling anyone a lier. I am standing up for methods I use, but who wouldn't? My horse is five years old. She does all the laterals in trot, and some in canter, and her counter canter has come along nicely. I don't claim to be Grand Prix, but I DO some dressage. I have my strengths and weeknesses like anyone. I guess I have no choice but to turn the other cheek. So go ahead... spit away.

[dalpal]

And what would your horse prefer? If you are not physically controling your horse, why do you need them? Well, OK, yes I too like to use a bridle for refinement, but what about this does not look like fun!
http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/newfave.jpgMe on Asia- 5 yo Friesian cross

Hmmmm, don't think that's allowed in the dressage arena yet....thanks for the picture, but I'll be sticking to my bridle. I really haven't asked my mare what she prefers...I'll ask her tomorrow and let you know what she says. :lol:

Edited to add....I just looked at your photos and is my eyes playing tricks on me or do you have a bridle on your horse in a couple of those pictures?

[danee]

I'll ask her tomorrow and let you know what she says.
OK, you do that!

I just looked at your photos and is my eyes playing tricks on me or do you have a bridle on your horse in a couple of those pictures?

Yes I do use a bridle.:D:D:D

[Monday's Mom]

danee, you have a lovely horse and it looks like you're doing a good job with her and having fun as well. I'm not a Parelli fan, but then again I haven't seen many, if any, people do it well so I won't make any blanket statements. I also don't like bad dressage, and there's enough of that around. Clearly you are making things work for you. More power to you!

[dalpal]

OK, you do that!



Yes I do use a bridle.:D:D:D

So your point about me using a bridle?????????

[BarbB]

So go ahead... spit away.

Not spitting. You have a lovely horse that you obviously do ride without tack. However, you presented some photos that have been altered and I called you on it.

[danee]

dalpal, I said right on my post, which you quoted, that "OKay I do use a bridle for refinement" or somthing like that. I'm certainly not implying that everyone who uses a bridle shoves their horse around, but if you can take it off and ride with nothing, it proves you are not over using the bridle... does that make sense? I appologize if I am getting a little defensive- I'm trying not to- honest I am!!!

BarbB, I swear on my first born that the only altering I did was cropping and maybe playing with the lighting/contrast. My digital is pretty crappy and the quality is not that good, so if you see little squares, than I appologize- if you want to buy me a nicer camera I'll gladly do it again!:D:D:D

My husband and I are doing a clinic this weekend- if anyone wants to head out and watch me ride bridle-less and do liberty in person you are more than welcome! Watch, now I'll get sensored for advertising:yes:

[Donella]

It does look like fun..the thing is, people who are into dressage follow the training scale, and as we all know, contact is part of that training scale, and without it, there is no collection ect ( ie the pinacle of dressage training).

If you have a problem with contact, dressage is the wrong sport for you..period. The end.

[Reiterin]

Why is it that people get in such a twist over PNH? I've seen bleeding spur marks and broken lips and hear people call it art!!!!! Certainly nothing Pat does is that offensive?

And why do _I_ get in a twist over PNH, because he acts like he is so damned superior because he does it with his self-defined "savvy".

I've seen both from him and more. You could research it. There are a lot of videos, pictures, and more in the hands of a number of people and have been shared rather widely. That's not to say there aren't correction cases. Horses who are so far down a wrong path that to get them right won't be all roses. I'll agree a lot of it is man-made, but its a myth that Parelli keeps you from having those problems. They create far more of them than they would ever dream of getting credit for solving and the trainers on this forum are vouching for the numbers of horss and riders they have had to seriously fix as a result.

[danee]

Those horses may have been ruined by PNH followers, but I've seen far more horses ruined by dressage TRAINERS in my personal experience.


contact is part of that training scale, and without it, there is no collection ect ( ie the pinacle of dressage training).

If you have a problem with contact, dressage is the wrong sport for you..period. The end.
Ahh, thank you, the intelligent conversation starts!!! On our natural dressage forum we have MANY conversation about these kind of topics.

It is true that some NH trained horses/riders have contact issues- especially if they do the bazillion flexions like Clinton Anderson does, so this is an extrememly important topic!

The energy is started in the HQ, goes over the back and is recycled back to the rider. We can effect the Hind legs without touching them, correct? So we technically should be able to effect the head and neck without direct control- even if it is only ideal.

When I ride bridle-less I do not circulate the energy back anywhere near as well. In the pics I posted you can tell last years from this years, because in last years she is more hollow and inverted- energy not cycled back properly. In the newer pics she is round even while bridle-less because our dressage is getting progresively better and cycling the energy back is becoming habit for her if nothing else.

On the Art of Natural Dressage forum (AND) their goal is collection with NO HEAD GEAR EVER! I find it very intriguing, and I'm not saying I think it is imposible, but it sure the heck is not practical. When I ride with a bridle I look for the same thing any decent dressage rider does- horse stretching to the bit in the seeking reflexes, and I COMPLETELY agree that Parelli does not teach this near enough and that is why people like Karen Rohlf and Walter Zettl are worth their weight in gold!!! Of course any dressage trainer that is very concerned about the horse's emotional status and puts that over the physical tasks is worth their weight in gold, but they are too few and far between, but please don't think I don't think they exist!

I am currently finding new ways to combine natural horsemanship on the ground and on a loose rein, with dressage ideals. I ask for certain yeilds on the ground that encourage my horse to stretch. I get her more exuberant at liberty because she enjoys it more than having to drive strongly while riding. Once her energy is up, than I get on. Bridle-less is to test my own riding and make sure I'm not relying on my hands...and it is an ongoing thing to make sure I'm not starting to use my hands more than I need to!:cool:


I'm not, nor will I ever (unless it changes a lot!) imply that NH is an end all solution- classical dressage will never be replaced by it. But NH can create a very ready dressage student in the form of both horse and rider.

I'm sure many of you really have had bad experiences with NH or specifically PNH, but many of you have had bad experiences with dressage trainers too. Maybe Pat is egotistical- and Nuno Oliviera wasn't?!!!:eek:

Donella, I really love your point on contact and look forward to other good discussions!!!:)

[LMH]

Regardless of what anyone thinks of Parelli, to see the snarky attacks on danee and her photos are inexcuseable.

danee is a wonderful rider and beyond that a wonderful and kind person.

The attack on her from some on this forum will only add fuel to the Parelli criticism of dressage-and now dressage riders.

The 'ladies' that behaved as such should be ashamed...and I do use that word in its loosest sense.

Also would those offering such constructive criticism of the Parelli's be so kind to share photos of you and your horses?

I can't wait to see such high level dressage...since everyone on this forum talks the talk, please walk the walk and enlighten the rest of the world!

In other words, Show Me the TALENT!:lol:

Good grief. :no:

[Rusty Stirrup]

PP is a hell of a horse trainer. His wife is a hell of a marketing director. What they do has nothing to do with dressage or classical riding and training anymore than circus riding or barrel racing does. Neither are particularly good riders. I find that as his followers get more educated and want to actually ride their horses they incorporate what they can from his program (which is very basic but renamed and repackaged) and move on. The others aren't really interested in riding and want a rather large lap dog. As I've said in the past, I wish I'd thought of it first.

[dutchmike]

the fact maintains that anyone can do what the parreli's do but the pareli's can't do high level dressage or train a horse for dressage. About NH dressage ,I don't get the difference between NH dressage and just plain old circus riding, it has nothing to do with classical dressage at all

[Dirigo]

I've only read the first page, and now the last...
dont know how this subject got into defending everyones own style and I'm not about to find out.
However, I find the line ..... like dressage riders "short rein, no brain" HIGHLY offensive!!!

[zagafi]

Congrats on your first horse!! :) I too think this friendship is damaged, though I do hope at some point she'll come around. LOL...I can't imagine her inviting me to ride or have lunch with her "new P friends." I am not sure I could handle that much P, might be an intervention :lol:

Thanks! I've had her almost 2 years and she has humbled me quite a lot! We're having a great time, though. :D

[purplnurpl]

danee-

The thing is...you don't need PP to ride bridle-less.

I missed how PP was tied into your postings.

Horsemanship is horsemanship, no matter who sells it. PP put his stamp on it by doing stupid A$# stuff like frolicking with a carrot stick, sitting while lunging, and running horse into trailers with lunge lines.
And then he busts on other disciplines...ON TV!! Not so professional.

He’s a yahoo.

[slc2]

i dunno...danny's website is full enough of self congratulatory baloney that she can probably benefit from a little criticism.

[Lancaster9]

i dunno...danny's website is full enough of self congratulatory baloney that she can probably benefit from a little criticism.

Got a website slc?

[TheOtherHorse]

danee,
I think I made an assumption that you were one of those PNH nutters here stirring the pot. I'm not familiar with you and your posts, just what I saw on this thread. After reading your further posts, I don't think that is the case. It seems that you are just trying to enlighten us about your methods. I appologize for being snarky. I personally think dressage requires contact. That doesn't mean that what the people on that forum are doing is necessarily wrong, it is just different. It seems to go back to the whole German vs. Spanish thing. Strict proper dressage vs. artistic dressage with less emphasis on proper. What you do with your horses undoubtedly takes talent and hard work. It is impressive, and has value for some people. Just not what I have interest in doing with my horses. :)

Also would those offering such constructive criticism of the Parelli's be so kind to share photos of you and your horses?

I can't wait to see such high level dressage...since everyone on this forum talks the talk, please walk the walk and enlighten the rest of the world!

In other words, Show Me the TALENT!:lol:

Good grief. :no:

You sort of have a point. I am not very good at dressage. However, I am working on improving myself and my horse, as I'd think we all are. I'm trying to do things correctly, so that I'll have a solid foundation to build more on in the future. I don't think the Parelli methods are compatible with proper dressage foundations, even at the lowest levels.

Furthermore, if the only people who discussed things were those already riding GP level, this would be a very quiet forum. We are here to learn and discuss what we've learned. Just because someone has not yet mastered the physical ability to do something does not necessarily mean that they don't understand the theories and concepts behind it, so I think those of us riding Training level can still understand concepts that go up the levels.

[NoDQhere]

OK, I really wasn't going to get into this fiasco but some of these comments are just so, :mad: I don't know, they leave me speachless. Well almost :lol:

First off, the Peperonies have NO business commenting on Dressage, they have never DONE Dressage. Maybe Linda did some attempted Training Level stuff in her native OZ, but the way she bumps and grinds she could never hope to actually DO A TEST. One has to have an independant seat, in other words learn to ride, to DO Dressage. The Pepperonies are awful riders, no matter what disipline you are working in :eek: And, sorry to say, but the "training" they do is only de-sensitization, something anyone is capeable of. In fact we do a lot of it in our program. BUT we need to let our horses keep their "spark" or they won't have the energy to become Dressage horses or Hunters, or Eventers or Jumpers.

My biggest gripe with the NH folks is that they all have this "just like Dressage" or "better than Dressage" BS, when not a one of them has ever went down centerline. Why are they all so threatened by DRESSAGE???? If their method is so GREAT, why can't they stand on their own merits??

So until I see a Pepperoni or any of the rest of that group do a line of One Tempis, Passage, Pirouette, Halfpass..........they need to drop the word Dressage from their list of $20.00 words used to impress the greenhorns.

[Ghazzu]

Maybe Linda did some attempted Training Level stuff in her native OZ, but the way she bumps and grinds she could never hope to actually DO A TEST.

I've often wondered, given LP's proclivity for describing herself as a former dressage competitor if she indeed ever did actually ride a test in front of a judge.
There seem to be no records extant of such a thing.

[Donella]

I am on the run so not a long post BUT..something obvious here...
First of all, if you really want to see pics of me riding ..sure, I'll figure out how to upload. Secondly, none of us are claiming to be the second coming in horse training ALA pat and linda parelli. If he was just your everyday rider, not a proffessional taking peoples money by the millions ( and gullable greenies for that matter) than I wouldn't dream of criticising his riding. However, when you call yourself a professional horse trainer, you BETTER, in my mind, be able to actually sit on the horse and look like one.

It really must be a bunch of greenhorns following him, because honestly, I can't divert my attention from that bouncing, arm flapping, leg flailing mess that both of them turn into the moment they get on the back of a horse..nor do I understand how any accomplished rider could. To me, it just discredits everything that comes out of his mouth. It would be as if your piano instructor never learned how to play the piano or something like that..like the blind leading the blind.

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

I am still worried that I have made Ted emotionally unstable because we have never even attempted Parelli level One.

[caffeinated]

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u206/savvydanee/schwung2.jpg

Might want to move that saddle back or use a crupper ;)

[Ponyclubrocks]

danee,
I think I made an assumption that you were one of those PNH nutters here stirring the pot. I'm not familiar with you and your posts, just what I saw on this thread. After reading your further posts, I don't think that is the case. It seems that you are just trying to enlighten us about your methods. I appologize for being snarky. I personally think dressage requires contact. That doesn't mean that what the people on that forum are doing is necessarily wrong, it is just different. It seems to go back to the whole German vs. Spanish thing. Strict proper dressage vs. artistic dressage with less emphasis on proper. What you do with your horses undoubtedly takes talent and hard work. It is impressive, and has value for some people. Just not what I have interest in doing with my horses. :)



You sort of have a point. I am not very good at dressage. However, I am working on improving myself and my horse, as I'd think we all are. I'm trying to do things correctly, so that I'll have a solid foundation to build more on in the future. I don't think the Parelli methods are compatible with proper dressage foundations, even at the lowest levels.

Furthermore, if the only people who discussed things were those already riding GP level, this would be a very quiet forum. We are here to learn and discuss what we've learned. Just because someone has not yet mastered the physical ability to do something does not necessarily mean that they don't understand the theories and concepts behind it, so I think those of us riding Training level can still understand concepts that go up the levels.

Without commenting on the whole debate, I really liked this post...MFG you really showed some class here....

[danee]

Hey guys, thanks for the compliments! And MGFPaints, your appology is warmly accepted and I truly thank you for it- having a different opinion it tough around here!

So until I see a Pepperoni or any of the rest of that group do a line of One Tempis, Passage, Pirouette, Halfpass..........they need to drop the word Dressage from their list of $20.00 words used to impress the greenhorns.
Well, my mare has a pretty nice piaffe in hand- not much suspension to it, but the rhythm is good and she really shifts the weight back- especially since on a very good day we started adding a moment of levade.
Our half-passes are great when shallow- If I ask for too much bend and angle I get a bit of an S-curve at the base of her neck. We are doing tempi simple changes...uh, does that count??? We are also schooling 6 meter circles in haunches in and shoulder in at the canter. Not yet a pirouette, but I'm awefully happy with it!!!!

That said, I agree that when Linda talks about collection I see her "preparing her horse for collection" (getting soft topline, vertical flexion and stretching to bit) but not yet actually shifting weight back. But Linda does have a decent passage (no clue how she trained it, becuase the peices aren't there?!) and a half pass. Since riding with Walter Zettl their dressage is improving greatly, but I think it will be a little while before they "take it public". They did just release a Flying Lead Change DVD which made me cringe initially, because their changes are hardly ever clean, but a friend who bought it said they did many uncut changes on the DVD and they were all clean, so maybe they have improved there too...seems early to release a DVD on it though.


Furthermore, if the only people who discussed things were those already riding GP level, this would be a very quiet forum. We are here to learn and discuss what we've learned. AMEN!!!


What they do has nothing to do with dressage or classical riding and training anymore than circus riding or barrel racing does.
Here is where I disagree. Just because they themselves are not doing dressage doesn't mean that a horse can't be prepared for dressage through natural horsemanship. SOmeone said that natural horsemanship can be done by dressage riders, but not the other way around...I personally have not seen a dressage trainer who can play with his horse at liberty, back him by the tail, longe him by the flanks, ask him to lay down, etc. Circus or not, it takes training and rapport. What is so wrong with circus- just becuase it is not classical dressage? No one is claiming that longing a horse by his flanks is classical dressage, but now that my mare is sane enough to not buck at this alarming sensation, and sensitive and smart enough to yeild towards me when she feels the line pull, that means she is sensitive, smart, and sane enough that she could respond correctly to a half-halt the same moment that someone just outside the ring drops their umbrella as we pass- or wahtever the case may be. Not every "trick" leads to suspension, contact, and schwung, but it does add another letter to your alphabet, or word or sentence to your communication. It turns your horse into a rational problem solver ("do I jump the rail, sidepass over it, back over it?", "Hmmm, does inside leg mean more bend, more reach with inside hind, more thrust?")



EDIT: Oh, as for barrel racing, I think it help dressage too! If you have an old lazy bones it is a great way to get their energy up- just like trailriding is good for their inner peace. I like reining too, and jumping. I think they all add something to my dressage!

[Sandy M]

Sorry Danee, but I've seen LP's passage and it is passage only because she calls it that. It is totally unengaged, hollow backed, hocks trailing - it's more like a prancing, nervous horse that won't walk than a true passage - and without connection, that's all it will ever be. Plus she STILL rides like a sack of potatoes, arms flapping, etc. By the time one reaches the "level" of doing passage, one ought to be able to sit properly, at the very least, especially if one is dissing "traditional" dressage and saying that what one does is "better." Your statements of what you have done with your horse sound basically correct and your pictures are quite nice - but one has to wonder about those statements if you truly think what LP does is a decent passage.

I've also seen pictures that the Parellis themselves promote as a sterling example of a Parelli trained horse doing piaffe: Hollow backed, hocks trailing, neck vertical with no roundness, head PARALLEL (not vertical) to the ground. No one's (except the Parellis, apparently) idea of a correct piaffe.

[LMH]

i dunno...danny's website is full enough of self congratulatory baloney that she can probably benefit from a little criticism.

Forgive me if I should bow at the feet of thine own...would you mind listing your credentials, including of course all international wins?

I am actually in awe to be posting on a thread full of such amazing talent.

I have only been riding horse for a little under 30 years...i can't wait to reach the level of the armchair quarterbacks on this forum!

The sad part is I bet most of the Miss Nasties are more bark than bite and would never stand behind the rudeness should they meet danee in person.

Dislike Parelli all you want...but be civil to a person that just is enthusiastic about what she does, proud of her accomplishments and obviously eager to improve.

And to whomever said everyone can do Parelli...really??? So everyone single dressage diva on this forum could easily walks through all tasks up through level 3? What about level 4?

Goodness...I am in amazing company.

For those capable of competing internationally AND completing a 3ft hunter course bridleless, where did you train? How many years did it take you to achieve these goals?

[Sandy M]

And to whomever said everyone can do Parelli...really??? So everyone single dressage diva on this forum could easily walks through all tasks up through level 3? What about level 4?

Goodness...I am in amazing company.

For those capable of competing internationally AND completing a 3ft hunter course bridleless, where did you train? How many years did it take you to achieve these goals?

Well, I'm an old fart, so perhaps I have the credentials. Though, admittedly,I have NOT trained a horse to GP level in either jumping of dressage.

I have evented to Preliminary, done Intermediate level combined tests. I have shown dressage through 2nd level, schooled 3rd, ridden higher level horses. I have shown hunters to the "B" level (not enough $$$ for the big time), and have shown in jumper classes to 4'6" and schooled fences over 5'. (different horses, different times). All my horses have been calm, well behaved trail horses. Though eventers, dressage horses, hunters and/or jumpers, I have on occasion worked cattle on them - not with the expertise of a true cow horse, but enough to herd them when needed to assist others.

One day for my amusement, I read through a THREE PAGE Parelli ad listing the things a horse taught the Parelli levels would be able to do, and the problems Parelli would be able to "fix." My recently retired horse was capable of doing EVERYTHING on those lists with the exception of two: His flying changes were unreliable and he was every-so-slightly girthy, which I had, for the most part, worked down to a minimal reaction. (Per studies reported in Equus magazine, cinchiness is a true sensitivity, not a disciplinary problem, and the "cure" for it is to accommodate it, i.e., girth up gently and slowly until horse is more accepting.)

Okay? Am I qualified to comment? (and I don't think any of my few comments have been snarky.)

[LMH]

SandyM-thank you for your response and not a bit of snarkiness!:)

Your accomplishments are those of true horseman, in my opinion...indeed Madame Old Fart you would qualify as one talking the talk and walking the walk.;)

To be clear, I don't assume there is no one on the net who is qualified to comment on Parelli-that topic is so dead it is pointless.

It will never be said (from me at least) that no one can have a calm horse without Parelli, nor will it be said Parelli is the only way to have a calm horse.

*My* beef with this thread was a personal attack on someone that was not screaming Parelli from the mountain tops...to accuse someone of photoshopping a picture is 'touch don't come play in our sandbox', don't you think?


On a side note-the Equus article on girthiness, I would love to get a copy of that. I don't get the magazine...is it available anywhere online?

[Red Barn]

Oh, for Pate's sake, LMH.

I don’t think one is obligated to admire someone just because they're really cheerful when they insist that you do so. Nor is one required to accept their opinion after 22 PAGES of evidence to the contrary. Your friend may be the sweetest woman since Mother Teresa, but this doesn’t mean I’m somehow compelled to suspend rational thought.

Color me unladylike if you wish, but I’m thoroughly sick of this silly, unquestioning mania for riding without tack as if it was some Mystical Magical accomplishment unheard of before the advent of PP.

For heaven’s sake, ALL good riders teach their horses to understand cues through seat and leg! NO good rider directs her horse by rein alone – this is obvious to anybody who rides above the whoa-and-go level. (I’ve even had my beginning students steer simple courses with their pinkies on the buckle. And if an 8 year child can do it, IT'S PROBABLY NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.)

Tactful, harmonious and elegant communication between the horse’s mouth and the rider’s hand has always been one of the central tenets of dressage instruction. Nobody claims it’s easy, but it IS a goal worth striving for.

You don't have to be Reiner Klimke to know this.

People are bound to get snarky about PNH when its practitioners decide its AOK to rewrite 2000 years of equestrian tradition, and then expect a warm ‘n’ fuzzy hug for doing so.


.

[dalpal]

Okay, I did "communicate" with the gray mare this afternoon about her bridle...now forgive me if I got this wrong, the lines were a bit static, bad reception.

But bascially she told me that "No way in freakin hell are you taking away my bling!" :lol:

Apparently, she is rather found of her purple beaded browband.

[Sandy M]

On a side note-the Equus article on girthiness, I would love to get a copy of that. I don't get the magazine...is it available anywhere online?


It was several years ago, and it was just in those brief columns where they have notes about recent developments, meds, studies, etc. I don't know if the Equus archive is on-line, but you might want to check. I don't have a copy any more. It was sort of a relief when I read it, because I was concerned that this was a big "hole" in my horse. I had tried the Lyons method, but he was still antsy and got "happy feet" when girthed up, no matter how slowly I did it, but that was all in cross ties. The combination of single-tying, v. gentle girthing up and a CA Tie Blocker (TM) (ROFLOLPIMIP) did the trick. There you are - I just admitted to using an NH product - but NOT a carrot stick!!!!!

Oh,oh!!!! P.S. Forgot to address one of your requirements (*G*): On a couple of occasions, I did, indeed, ride a 3' course on my old event horse (he died in 1997 at age 27) bridleless, using seat, legs and the occasional twitch on the breastplaste. I also, when I had him for sale (decided not to sell), dropped the reins five strides out and rode him through a 3'3' - 3'6' - 3'9" triple in-and-out. I'd like to see pics of Linda doing something like that (sorry, that WAS snarky. LOL)

[MarJ]

OK, I have had my jab at PP with the 6 P's post, but must you all keep beating the dead horse? After 23+ pages can't we give it a rest already?

[purplnurpl]

OMG that is the funniest thing I read all day.

I'm totally calling them the pepperonis from now on.

[LMH]

SandyM-how thorough of you to address my final requirement:lol: Well done at playing nice with me;)...and I will let you tiny little snarky comment go to the side since you did infact have a little fun with me until that moment.

Red Barn-I reread my post-could you please find where I expected everyone to 'admire' someone?

I am talking common courtesy. Because danee is new and part of the darkside, anything she posts will already be suspect in this henhouse. I happen to know her from elsewhere and she is nothing like you are trying to make her.

Enough said on this, I prefer to keep the company of decent people-whether they use carrot sticks, ride on contact, jump fences or even ride at all...and there is just not many of those people on threads like this.

So cat...I mean chat amongst yourselves ladies.

[AZ Native]

I was going to toss 2 cents in, had a couple of big paragraphs written and ready to go, and dang, hit the wrong button and lost the deal :( Anyway, I may take a stab later if the threads still alive . In the meantime, Danee and LMH are class acts that seem to have the horses well being as the first priority and open minds to go along with that, and egos checked at the door.
I have an extensive background in the '' darkside '' ( flame suit on ) but have continued to move along in my horsemanship. I recently lossed my open minded, wonderful teacher and rider ( Bronze Medalist ) instructor, but will start this week with her teacher, a USDF Certified Inst. and Silver Medalist. I'm excited !
If I get motivated , and am feeling brave about wading into the shark tank, I'll get into more of my experience, the good ,the bad, and my take on PNH now. Some of the complaints are absolutely right on, some are quite amusing.
Can anyone get the Youtube link to '' Mikey plays with Red Sun '' ?
Call it circus,etc, I still love watching it. My computer refuses to let me cut and paste the link.
Kind of a fun thread, anyway.Horse people are infinately interesting....

[Donella]

But Linda does have a decent passage (no clue how she trained it, becuase the peices aren't there?!) and a half pass. Since riding with Walter Zettl their dressage is improving greatly, but I think it will be a little while before they "take it public". They did just release a Flying Lead Change DVD which made me cringe initially, because their changes are hardly ever clean, but a friend who bought it said they did many uncut changes on the DVD and they were all clean, so maybe they have improved there too...seems early to release a DVD on it though.

MEH. Sorry, and I really do not mean this in a rude way, but linda has a hard time actually sitting on the horse. I have seen it, and pat is worse. You cannot possibly teach a horse passage if you yourself are not balanced on the horse. You cannot teach passage without contact either. If the horse does trot on the spot, call it that. There is no way it is correct passage though it probably impresses the greenhorns who wouldn't know either way.

Sort of reminds me ..and I am not comparing parelli to the world famous lippizaner stallions, but if anyone has seen that production, they will know what I am talking about. For the most part , it was good and correct. Until they started showing upper level movements. The "passage" had HUGE suspension..the horse is so naturally talented that he makes it look wow to the untrained eye. The problem, is that the horse had his head way in the air trying to evade the contact and his back was of course, super hollow. Same with piaffe and the tempis which were all non existant behind. Then the anouncer tells us the stallion was rescued two years ago. Ok..so two years ago it is a rescue horse, and now it's doing passage and piaffe? NO..it's doing circus acts that appear to be passage and piaffe to people who don't know any better.

There is NO WAY IN HELL linda or pat have trained correct upper level movements. Circus acts? I wouldnt' doubt it, especially considering the high esteem they hold themselves in. But dressage? NO WAY.

[egontoast]

Linda does have a decent passage

Interesting. Usually it's the horse that has the passage.

[Atigirl]

I think that what Danee is doing is admirable. She is enjoying her horse and trying to acheive balance and harmony. But I too am enjoying mine (with a bridle). For those of us who choose to compete in certain recognize equine events we are required to wear the appropriate attire. That includes bridle and saddle. I don't think I have ever put a bridle on my horse and thought
"I can't wait for you to lock on to this thing and drag my arse around the arena". Most riders are trying to acheive balance and harmony in whatever sport they do and with whatever methods they are using.

You can teach/train an animal to do almost anything. Look at all the animal in the circus, Sea World, Las Vegas and movies and commercials. They were all trained to do their "tricks". You can also train an animal to join a group and become a disciple all the while spending a whole lot of $$$$.:winkgrin:

[diamondsgal]

Well, I have to say, all the Parelli bashing is quite comical as it's the very thing you all hate about him bashing dressage. Isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black? :lol:

Also grouping all Parelli-ites together is rather assuming. There are ineffective riders and inexperienced horse handling going on in ALL disciplines. Shouldn't we all be advocating for the horse no matter what clinician we follow?

Horses and riders are different. No two are alike and some are a bad fit (like a bad marriage) There are good trainers, bad trainers, etc...

I have extensive experience with the Parelli methods and the principles are sound. For people entering into horse ownership especially at an older age, it's a program that can progressively take them through the basics- learning how to keep a horse at a safe distance etc...That is not a bad thing. Unfortunately, many people never progress past that basic level. They don't know what they don't know and that is often where people get hurt. They see Pat or Linda do something and try to emulate them without being properly prepared. Not good and the Parelli's discourage that.

In studying the program, I have never learned that dressage was "Bad". Linda often refers to herself as a "dressage nazi" because she allowed her competitive goals to overshadow the relationship with her horse. In stark contrast, dressage is the ultimate dance with the horse. When done properly, it is true harmony! A beautiful thing for sure.

So, harsh generalizations regarding people who study the program is way off base. Not all are rope wiggling lemmings who have been hypnotized by a marketing ploy. Most are actually astute enough to see past the marketing and ask questions. Learning never stops. There are many excellent natural horsemanship clinicians out there and there is a place for them.

So, open your minds and go enjoy your horses!

Couldn't have said it better myself!

[BarbB]

Shouldn't we all be advocating for the horse no matter what clinician we follow?



This is one of the things that kind of sticks in my throat. I don't FOLLOW any clinician. I have been fortunate enough to have had instruction from some fabulous world class instructors and riders...but I don't FOLLOW them. I learn from them, from all of them. Some things are good for this horse, some things not. I am responsible to pick and choose for the good of my horse and my riding.
No joining, no following...just learning.

[TheOtherHorse]

This is one of the things that kind of sticks in my throat. I don't FOLLOW any clinician. I have been fortunate enough to have had instruction from some fabulous world class instructors and riders...but I don't FOLLOW them. I learn from them, from all of them. Some things are good for this horse, some things not. I am responsible to pick and choose for the good of my horse and my riding.
No joining, no following...just learning.

Very well said. :yes: I think if the Payrelli worshipers thought more like this, the whole thing would be much less controversial. There are some good ideas to take from the Payrelli system (though not NEW ideas...), but if forced to choose 'all or nothing', I'll take nothing anyday rather than buy into all of the malarky. :lol:

[danee]

I use a lot of NH, most of which comes from PNH- does that make me a Parelli(pepperoni) worshipper?:sigh:

Now, I didn't get into this until three pages ago, but you guys have been in this for 24 pages now. I"m more than wiling to let it die, but if I decide to start a thread on how horsemanship benefits my dressage, is it going to turn into a "Pat and Linda said this and it offended me" or can we talk intelligently about combining NH and dressage?

[Devo]

This is one of the things that kind of sticks in my throat. I don't FOLLOW any clinician. I have been fortunate enough to have had instruction from some fabulous world class instructors and riders...but I don't FOLLOW them. I learn from them, from all of them. Some things are good for this horse, some things not. I am responsible to pick and choose for the good of my horse and my riding.
No joining, no following...just learning.

Wow, you guys even pick on rhetoric!
Let me clarify the word "follow". I'll use it in a sentence. I "follow" the principles I have learned from many teachers also! (sarcasm added:lol:)

I truly hope this is not an accurate cross-section of the dressage community. I really respected and admired you all until I started reading these posts...You all drink alot of hater-ade!

[Rusty Stirrup]

I use a lot of NH, most of which comes from PNH- does that make me a Parelli(pepperoni) worshipper?:sigh:

Now, I didn't get into this until three pages ago, but you guys have been in this for 24 pages now. I"m more than wiling to let it die, but if I decide to start a thread on how horsemanship benefits my dressage, is it going to turn into a "Pat and Linda said this and it offended me" or can we talk intelligently about combining NH and dressage?

I don't think anyone is against "horsemanship" (I see you dropped the Natural) Most of the old-timers I know (myself encluded in that catagory) always called it "cross training, ground Work or desensitizing work" and didn't need any special gadgets. But hey, this is America and more power too them. But if they throw it out there some of it is gonna get on them.

[slc2]

it's impossible to talk about combining something that is so decidedly not dressage, with dressage, and coming up with....dressage.

if you cross a chihuaha with a great dane, you get a mutt.

you don't get a chihauha, and you don't get a great dane. you get a highly inharmonious mixture that makes no sense.

sure there may be a pearl i can take away from peperoni. don't do this. don't do that. that makes no sense. that is crazy. that is bad riding. don't do that.

a mix of the two bears no resemblance to either. it is a mess. it makes no sense to horse or rider.

that's what you get if you try to cross no contact and balance and seat, no throughness, no half halts, incorrect bending, incorrect position, wrongly exercuted figures, misunderstanding of collection, extension and every exercise in dressage, with a discipline that involves, contact, balance, seat, throughness, rhythm, collection, correctly exercuted bending, figures, extension, etc.

AT LEAST natural horsemanship sometimes makes sense for producing albeit sullenly, but at least obedient, horses, if the owner survives. why can't you leave it at that?

[NoDQhere]

it's impossible to talk about combining something that is so decidedly not dressage, with dressage, and coming up with....dressage.

if you cross a chihuaha with a great dane, you get a mutt.

you don't get a chihauha, and you don't get a great dane. you get a highly inharmonious mixture that makes no sense.

sure there may be a pearl i can take away from peperoni. don't do this. don't do that. that makes no sense. that is crazy. that is bad riding. don't do that.

a mix of the two bears no resemblance to either. it is a mess. it makes no sense to horse or rider.

that's what you get if you try to cross no contact and balance and seat, no throughness, no half halts, incorrect bending, incorrect position, wrongly exercuted figures, misunderstanding of collection, extension and every exercise in dressage, with a discipline that involves, contact, balance, seat, throughness, rhythm, collection, correctly exercuted bending, figures, extension, etc.

AT LEAST natural horsemanship sometimes makes sense for producing albeit sullenly, but at least obedient, horses, if the owner survives. why can't you leave it at that?

Very well said! The two just don't work together. If you spend as much time developing yourself as a rider and your horse as an athlete as the PNH program spends on "games" you will be ready to show! Or you can play PNH games until your horse is "dead to the world" then you STILL have to learn to ride and STILL have to develop your horse, using the Training Scale. Its really much easier to use the correct and time proven methods of the Training Scale to "do" Dressage.

Danny, your horse looks lovely and you both look happy. That's great. If you continue to persue Dressage, you will learn what us Dressage people are talking about. For instance, you say your mare has good "shallow" half passes but the "steeper" ones cause problems. That is because your mare is not "through" and she isn't "through" because you do not have a connection from back to front. Riding bridleless is really neat and you look like you are doing a good job. Anyone is going to be impressed with that. It is COOL. I dabbled in bridless as a youngster and it is fun. But the neck cable really isn't bridleless, either. It actually gives you quite a bit of control.

Pepperoni makes nasty remarks about Dressage, and us "Dressage" people get dissed for defending ourselves. Like I've said, many times, if PNH is SO GREAT why can't it stand on its own merits???

[Mozart]

I can put on a pink tutu and prance around on my tippy toes. It still won't be ballet.

I would be prepared to leave Parelli alone if they were prepared to leave dressage alone.

[NoDQhere]

I can put on a pink tutu and prance around on my tippy toes. It still won't be ballet.

I would be prepared to live Parelli alone if they were prepared to leave dressage alone.

OK, now I just snarffed my coffee :lol: But seriously, I think you just said what a lot of us think. Please, Mighty Pepperonis, just drop your dissing of "other" disciplines and carry on with your own :sleepy:

[TheOtherHorse]

I can put on a pink tutu and prance around on my tippy toes. It still won't be ballet.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
This is the funniest thing I've heard in a while. Right on! :yes:

[MyReality]

I actually watched 'Mike plays with red sun'. I thought it was very cool! Very good little horse, and looks like the trainer has put miles on him.

Then the guy drives me crazy when he got on.

I don't think he is a bad rider. But I would hope people wouldn't think "wow I want to do that. No saddle no bridle and he jumps a picnic table!" It's cool only because the average rider lacks skills using a bridle and balance on saddle. The average rider cannot see beyond their current ability: the fact is, with the right instruction and practice and dedication, their ponies and the equipments won't fight them anymore, they too could ride with harmony and precision.

Riding without saddle and bridle does improve your riding skill... the equipments allow the riders to misuse them in a way. But a technique to help you ride (bareback and bridleless) does not equal to this is how horses should be ridden in order to be called good.

And people need to understand why your jumper clinician does not demonstrate to the audience how to jump picnic tables or jump out of the arena. It is NOT because they can't. Any horse CAN be taught to do it. Or dressage people don't teach a horse to piaffe when the horse at best can do a training level test. There are things we CAN teach a horse do but we don't.

[PiaffeDreams]

Oy vey... I've been watching this thread for 23 pages now and its just surreal.

1. Pat made the comments about dressage.
2. The dressage riders were deciphering the validity of these statements (albeit some not very matter of factly or emotionally)
3. Their determination of the validity of the statements to be nada means they don't get it?

Given that however, I’ll take a stab at an educated discussion.

Horses are all horses and they all move like horses so we can agree on that. Collection can’t be redefined- the training scale is not a hypothesis. Unfortunately I spent 3yrs following the Parelli system into Level 4, and it was 3yrs too many. However, I know how the philosophy works. I'm no super fab rider, but I've ridden enough FEI horses and Parelli trained horses and used their approach enough to know you won't get a dressage horse out of it. You can have a horse that carries itself with the "deportment" of a dressage horse, but its a caricature. The dressage is not happening. It’s a pose.

Teaching collection/dressage “naturally” as I learned it according to what Pat/Linda and Karen Rolf do: The idea is you teach the horse to move from w/t/c back, forward, right, left, haunches lft/rt and shoulders lft/rt from just seat/leg pressure backing it up with taps/whacks from a stick if it doesn't happen. When the horse will perform all the moves from the slightest indication then you use partial moves to teach it to hold whatever posture you need. ie: trot along and out of the blue back your horse up as if the ground was falling away. Do that enough times and then 'pretend' you are about to back up and the horse will start to do a prancier trot- what the Parelli's would refer to as collected. No reins, so mind you the horse will not have any elongation of the spine, no bridge/connection to the haunches. Once the horse will hold that prancier trot for longer periods of time, then you pick up the reins and teach him to tuck his head into vertical flexion or lateral flexion. To mimic long and low, they teach the horse to drop its head at the tap of the stick on the neck or by associating that behavior with combing the reins. However, the horses I've watched do this just shove their nose down and plow away on the forehand usually not tracking up. No sending them over the back from the haunches. This is of course the very reason they cannot do medium or extended paces on their horses.

That is not dressage. It just isn't. The ideal isn't even close. What is funny is that this argument is also so old its new again. LOL Read the classical works and these very things are staunchly warned about. WHen the initial training of the horse is without feel through the reins and no attention paid to the flexion through the whole spine including the neck and poll, it is highly likely and quite the normal occurance for the horse to stiffen in the neck, shortening it in order to perform the tasks the rider is asking of it. Without anything being transmitted to the hand, the horse becomes quickly habituated to not reaching. When the horse does not reach it is tight. When it is tight, the purity of the gait is at risk- some horses more than others. (Let alone that when the horse is tight you can never say it is relaxed no matter how tame or calm it is at the time which basically negates any argument about their method being for the MIND) Ride a short coupled downhill quarter horse with a very level neck and you can get away with it. The horse is very horizontal and all 'out in front'. Ride an upright horse with either a short or long back that lends itself to tension and you can be in big trouble. When you see the Parelli website stuff on horseanality, does it mention conformation? Gait? no... the physical aspects of the horse and how they relate to the behaviors the rider experiences are not mentioned.

To further point out that the method promotes a "leg mover" vs. a "back mover": I was watching a demo with one of their instructors. The instructor was having the horse do Spanish walk at liberty. The horse had HUGE throw of the leg in front. The instructor informed that was working on how to teach the horse to respond to the same cues in the trot and do the same step so that the horse would have an extended trot. Furthering that point is the fact that gaited horses are being successfully trained to gait (and even some non-gaited horses are being trained to gait/get impure) by using this method. Since non-trot intermediate gaits require some degree of ventro-flexion and this method is working to get gaiting without bits/weighted shoes.... well, you can see the connection.

Parelli is not the sole advocate of achieving a relationship on the ground, seeing what the horse thinks of things, and of capitalizing on the opportunity to develop suppleness, submission, softness from the way you handle a horse around the stable or tack it up.

In my first year of college I got a job as a working student for a GP dressage trainer who was very classically trained in Germany. My 2nd day on the job I was to tack up her GP horse. He was 17.3 and I'm 5'1". I dragged a bucket over and was standing on it to put his bridle on. She came around the corner and yelled at me to get off of it immediately and don't dare try to bridle a horse that way in her barn again. She walked up, showed me how to ask him to put his head down wait until he cooperated with it before putting the bridle on. Her horse was playing a game with me and I was buying into it. She always got new horses in that had various head issues. I was never allowed to use a stool or bucket to solve it. We coaxed, rewarded, and patiently taught the horses to be supple and yielding in everything we did. This gave us feedback too on how the horse was feeling- if an ordinarily compliant horse suddenly wasn't so keen to his bridle we would look at the teeth, the fit of the bridle, his work schedule and decipher what the horse needed. She also showed me how to properly lead the young horses so that they stayed up with me, didn't rush past, and would follow the handler into a wash stall or a trailer. It was the same mix of operant conditioning, pressure/release, etc. that has been understood by good horsemen long before Pat tried to stake a claim on pressure and release. She had no exposure to any NH.

A few years ago, I took a lesson from the Parelli dressage person. My young horse with like 6months under saddle was heavy over his right shoulder. As a young stallion he’d actually developed the evasion of trying to lay down (and succeeding) on anyone who picked up that hoof. He was highly dominant and fairly obnoxious. But, it was pretty obvious when ridden that he wanted to blow out the right and push through the aids. The Parelli “dressage” method was to trot on a 20m circle left with no reins, then quickly halt, and use the carrot stick to make him spin around to the left by tapping it against his neck or ‘smacking’ him until he did. It took a LOT of hard use of the stick to get him to listen when he was so heavy on the foreleg and being told to “find and effective phase 4”. The idea being that once he was anticipating having to spin left, he’d hold himself off the right shoulder. Sure, he did, but at the expense of any degree of willingness to go forward. He shortened his neck, and contracted his back in order to try to hold his shoulder up. Of course being so young and green he did not have the strength to do so. Talk about front to back riding! I decided once I got the idea of what they were after to work on something else for the lesson.

Interestingly, my dressage instructor and I at the time were also addressing this by first establishing a good working trot and then teaching him to counterflex and spiral in on a circle. Once he was soft, he got to leg-yield back out onto the 20m where we would sometimes lengthen the strides to have him increase his engagement. Heaven forbid we were using the reins and yes he got heavy at times, but he was using his haunches and his hindquarters. We didn’t get harsh with him for being heavy, just repeated and showed him the way. It took a few months, but it was quiet, patient and methodical work. Unlike the Parelli method where the dust was flying, it was anything but quiet and calm, and it relied on basically smacking the crap out of the horse. No thank you, I’ll use reins and communicate with my horse.

Now I still have to occasionally check that he’s soft and through the right rein before say doing a lead change to the right. That’s riding.

NH says “Make the wrong thing difficult” for the horse I prefer to make the right thing obvious.

[Bronte]

My post was gobbled up!

Piaffe Dreams, excellent post. Please save it to your desktop, so the next time this conversation arises, you can re-post it, and spare us all the 24 pages!:eek:

[slc2]

give that moyle a medal.

[danee]

I appologize for leaving off the "natural"- it was not intentional. Apparently we aren't letting it die, soooooooooo.....

Stacie, I admire your obvious knowledge and I am very happy for you that you found "horsemanship" (leaving off natural WAS purposeful that time!) through dressage trainers. I completely wish that happened more often becuase than I wouldn't need to muddle through the chore of combining NH with dressage!!!
But with EVERY dressage trainer I have been to, with the recent execption of Walter Zettl, i have not found the horsemanship to be there... and we are talking published dressage "masters"- not someone who bought an old GP horse and managed to get through 4th or 5th level (not that I'm downing that accomplishment!)

When I ride "finesse" I do it with all the dressage knowledge I have, when I work on bridle-less, online, or liberty, I try to keep the horse's back up and engage the HQ as much as possible, however, my main focus at that point is simply communication.

NoDQHere- Our half pass is GRADUALLY getting steeper with more bend all the time as we work our way up the training scale- what is so incorrect about that? I simply stated where I was at- I didn't think you wanted a comparison over the past two years as my horse has only been under saddle that long! If anything I am progressing with her way too quickly!

NH says “Make the wrong thing difficult” for the horse I prefer to make the right thing obvious. The entire phrase is make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult- so in other words, you totally agree with this Parellism (well all NHers use it). That is wonderful that we agree on something!:D

if you cross a chihuaha with a great dane, you get a mutt.
SO TRUE...but this isn't genetics. If a college student studies math and english, does the english make their math poor simply becuase it is not math!!!! That is what we are truly talking about here- I use NH to increase my horse's and my knowledge. As Luis Lucio told me "Use Parelli to do your dressge better, not to do it different." His horses "do Parelli" every day- that doesn't mean he suddenly forgot how to ride a horse forward into even steady contact. I may not do it as good as Luis, but that doesn't mean PNH has prevented me from learning it!!!

[LMH]

stacie-how wonderful to see you post here. I was reading it before I realized it was you and thinking-wow, this person is explaining all of this with such common sense...and I am not feeling attacked by her post...then I saw who wrote it.

I am sure you don't know who I am, but I used to post on the WAZ yahoo group-I always enjoyed you posts over there.

It actually is fantastic to see a perspective from someone that was very involved in PNH.

Thank you for a positive, thoughtful, educational post that I will enjoy thinking about.

[slc2]

actually it is EXACTLY like genetics because it is a system. you're putting in stuff that breaks down the system.

you are imitating the outward appearance of dressage from a very superficial point of observation of it, instead of actually doing it. it's a charicature of dressage, it's not dressage.

read the methods above, use all those critical thinking skills. do you think stacie is just some poor dumb misled dressage person that just reads books and putters around? she isn't. she's one of the best upcoming riders we have and she is very classical.

they aren't DOING dressage, they are trying to imitate it via a very, very feeble conception of what it is. and they are off. way off. the parellis have no understanding of what dressage is, they've never done it, so they can't teach people to do it. all they can teach is a charicature of dressage. yiou cannot teach anything any better than how well YOU understand it, and that's where they fall down.

many people do this in different ways than parelli, he is only one of many who have gotten dressage this wrong, and they have many adoring poor schmuck followers. just not me.

someone with more experience looks at it, and all of a sudden, it doesn't look so beautiful any more.

the training pyramid is this, except i decide it isn't. it doesn't work. MOYLE even says it doesn't work, LOL!

i hope you learn, but i'm not going to be the one to convince you, i am not spending my time banging my head against a brick wall. you have too many clever sayings, you can say more clever sounding things than i can say, because all i can say is, you're wrong. that is what parelli is all about when it comes to dressage - spin. and you and he and she are FAR FAR better at spinning this, and i thank god i'm NOT good at spinning it. you got too much self-deception going, and too many people cheering you on for you to figure this out any time soon, you'll be on here for quite some time, i imagine, telling people the New Gospel of Dressage According to Pat and Linda. enjoy it. it may last the rest of your life.

[Ghazzu]

I can put on a pink tutu and prance around on my tippy toes. It still won't be ballet.

I would be prepared to live Parelli alone if they were prepared to leave dressage alone.

Thank you for that marvelously succinct summation of this lengthy thread! :D

[PiaffeDreams]

The entire phrase is make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult- so in other words, you totally agree with this Parellism (well all NHers use it). That is wonderful that we agree on something!:D


SO TRUE...but this isn't genetics. If a college student studies math and english, does the english make their math poor simply becuase it is not math!!!!

No we do not agree. Please don't twist my words. Making the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult is quite different from ONLY stating 'making the right thing obvious.'

And yes, the English makes the math better because by studying the language in which it is described and become more proficient one can gain a deeper understanding of the mathematics. Being a teacher I can tell you that a student with a cognitive limitation in language will have difficulty in their mathematics studies. It doesn't mean they have the same problems in math, but it affects it. Working on strenghtening their abilities in linguistics will help them understand the language that describes math.

What we are talking about here is that Parelli defines things and describes them VERY differently. So to use one to explain the other or justify it is pointless as the definitions of words are totally different.

[pinkhorse]

Piaffe Dreams - thank you for an insight producing post. I just came onto this thread on this page. I don't know the origins of it and don't think I want to look back. But I learned a lot from your experience - I actually had no idea that they were pushing their stuff into some version of "dressage".

My experience (with an excellent reining trainer who does fabulous ground and riding work that looks like NH but I don't think he would call it that) made my horse a better horse - but not because of anything other than the very basic work we did together that taught us a lot about each other - mostly me about her.

Anyway, carry on. Have fun!

[TBROCKS]

Oy vey... I've been watching this thread for 23 pages now and its just surreal.

1. Pat made the comments about dressage.
2. The dressage riders were deciphering the validity of these statements (albeit some not very matter of factly or emotionally)
3. Their determination of the validity of the statements to be nada means they don't get it?

Given that however, I’ll take a stab at an educated discussion.

Horses are all horses and they all move like horses so we can agree on that. Collection can’t be redefined- the training scale is not a hypothesis. Unfortunately I spent 3yrs following the Parelli system into Level 4, and it was 3yrs too many. However, I know how the philosophy works. I'm no super fab rider, but I've ridden enough FEI horses and Parelli trained horses and used their approach enough to know you won't get a dressage horse out of it. You can have a horse that carries itself with the "deportment" of a dressage horse, but its a caricature. The dressage is not happening. It’s a pose.

Teaching collection/dressage “naturally” as I learned it according to what Pat/Linda and Karen Rolf do: The idea is you teach the horse to move from w/t/c back, forward, right, left, haunches lft/rt and shoulders lft/rt from just seat/leg pressure backing it up with taps/whacks from a stick if it doesn't happen. When the horse will perform all the moves from the slightest indication then you use partial moves to teach it to hold whatever posture you need. ie: trot along and out of the blue back your horse up as if the ground was falling away. Do that enough times and then 'pretend' you are about to back up and the horse will start to do a prancier trot- what the Parelli's would refer to as collected. No reins, so mind you the horse will not have any elongation of the spine, no bridge/connection to the haunches. Once the horse will hold that prancier trot for longer periods of time, then you pick up the reins and teach him to tuck his head into vertical flexion or lateral flexion. To mimic long and low, they teach the horse to drop its head at the tap of the stick on the neck or by associating that behavior with combing the reins. However, the horses I've watched do this just shove their nose down and plow away on the forehand usually not tracking up. No sending them over the back from the haunches. This is of course the very reason they cannot do medium or extended paces on their horses.

That is not dressage. It just isn't. The ideal isn't even close. What is funny is that this argument is also so old its new again. LOL Read the classical works and these very things are staunchly warned about. WHen the initial training of the horse is without feel through the reins and no attention paid to the flexion through the whole spine including the neck and poll, it is highly likely and quite the normal occurance for the horse to stiffen in the neck, shortening it in order to perform the tasks the rider is asking of it. Without anything being transmitted to the hand, the horse becomes quickly habituated to not reaching. When the horse does not reach it is tight. When it is tight, the purity of the gait is at risk- some horses more than others. (Let alone that when the horse is tight you can never say it is relaxed no matter how tame or calm it is at the time which basically negates any argument about their method being for the MIND) Ride a short coupled downhill quarter horse with a very level neck and you can get away with it. The horse is very horizontal and all 'out in front'. Ride an upright horse with either a short or long back that lends itself to tension and you can be in big trouble. When you see the Parelli website stuff on horseanality, does it mention conformation? Gait? no... the physical aspects of the horse and how they relate to the behaviors the rider experiences are not mentioned.

To further point out that the method promotes a "leg mover" vs. a "back mover": I was watching a demo with one of their instructors. The instructor was having the horse do Spanish walk at liberty. The horse had HUGE throw of the leg in front. The instructor informed that was working on how to teach the horse to respond to the same cues in the trot and do the same step so that the horse would have an extended trot. Furthering that point is the fact that gaited horses are being successfully trained to gait (and even some non-gaited horses are being trained to gait/get impure) by using this method. Since non-trot intermediate gaits require some degree of ventro-flexion and this method is working to get gaiting without bits/weighted shoes.... well, you can see the connection.

Parelli is not the sole advocate of achieving a relationship on the ground, seeing what the horse thinks of things, and of capitalizing on the opportunity to develop suppleness, submission, softness from the way you handle a horse around the stable or tack it up.

In my first year of college I got a job as a working student for a GP dressage trainer who was very classically trained in Germany. My 2nd day on the job I was to tack up her GP horse. He was 17.3 and I'm 5'1". I dragged a bucket over and was standing on it to put his bridle on. She came around the corner and yelled at me to get off of it immediately and don't dare try to bridle a horse that way in her barn again. She walked up, showed me how to ask him to put his head down wait until he cooperated with it before putting the bridle on. Her horse was playing a game with me and I was buying into it. She always got new horses in that had various head issues. I was never allowed to use a stool or bucket to solve it. We coaxed, rewarded, and patiently taught the horses to be supple and yielding in everything we did. This gave us feedback too on how the horse was feeling- if an ordinarily compliant horse suddenly wasn't so keen to his bridle we would look at the teeth, the fit of the bridle, his work schedule and decipher what the horse needed. She also showed me how to properly lead the young horses so that they stayed up with me, didn't rush past, and would follow the handler into a wash stall or a trailer. It was the same mix of operant conditioning, pressure/release, etc. that has been understood by good horsemen long before Pat tried to stake a claim on pressure and release. She had no exposure to any NH.

A few years ago, I took a lesson from the Parelli dressage person. My young horse with like 6months under saddle was heavy over his right shoulder. As a young stallion he’d actually developed the evasion of trying to lay down (and succeeding) on anyone who picked up that hoof. He was highly dominant and fairly obnoxious. But, it was pretty obvious when ridden that he wanted to blow out the right and push through the aids. The Parelli “dressage” method was to trot on a 20m circle left with no reins, then quickly halt, and use the carrot stick to make him spin around to the left by tapping it against his neck or ‘smacking’ him until he did. It took a LOT of hard use of the stick to get him to listen when he was so heavy on the foreleg and being told to “find and effective phase 4”. The idea being that once he was anticipating having to spin left, he’d hold himself off the right shoulder. Sure, he did, but at the expense of any degree of willingness to go forward. He shortened his neck, and contracted his back in order to try to hold his shoulder up. Of course being so young and green he did not have the strength to do so. Talk about front to back riding! I decided once I got the idea of what they were after to work on something else for the lesson.

Interestingly, my dressage instructor and I at the time were also addressing this by first establishing a good working trot and then teaching him to counterflex and spiral in on a circle. Once he was soft, he got to leg-yield back out onto the 20m where we would sometimes lengthen the strides to have him increase his engagement. Heaven forbid we were using the reins and yes he got heavy at times, but he was using his haunches and his hindquarters. We didn’t get harsh with him for being heavy, just repeated and showed him the way. It took a few months, but it was quiet, patient and methodical work. Unlike the Parelli method where the dust was flying, it was anything but quiet and calm, and it relied on basically smacking the crap out of the horse. No thank you, I’ll use reins and communicate with my horse.

Now I still have to occasionally check that he’s soft and through the right rein before say doing a lead change to the right. That’s riding.

NH says “Make the wrong thing difficult” for the horse I prefer to make the right thing obvious.

Piaffe, I've been waiting for this post! Thank you! :)

[wlrottge]

Piaffe, I've been waiting for this post! Thank you! :)

I'm too A.D.D to read the whole thing, lol

[egontoast]

Piaffe dreams did a great job of explaining the great divide.

The most difficult thing to achieve in dressage is the positive tension/ circle of the aids. I don't know what else to call it. Asking the horse to drop the bit is wrong wrong wrong but so often misinterpreted as 'round'.

Riding without a bit results in the same gap. The horse is behind the non existant bit. He must be. You can teach your horse to go in a false frame without a bit. The NHers have proven that. The Russian guy does that. The clicker trainers can do that.

That's not what you want. In dressage, you want the horse to always go to the bit. Strung like a bow.

I watched Bert Rutten wearing a headset and describing, second by second, as he rode an upper level horse at a clinic. It was all about riding the horse to the bit and pointing out (what we could not see) when the horse was not to the bit honestly (faking it). An eye opener. The whole ride was about this concept. The longitudinal contact with the bit at all times. No fancy stuff. This is the foundation for everything else. The horse must always be going from the hind end to the bit in dressage. He stressed that above all else and he was right. I think.

If you want to do circus tricks, parelli stuff and parade pony stuff you don't have to worry about that but please don't equate them. They aren't the same.That's fine but stop claiming they are the same.

Thanks .:).

[lstevenson]

Piaffe dreams did a great job of explaining the great divide.

The most difficult thing to achieve in dressage is the positive tension/ circle of the aids. I don't know what else to call it. Asking the horse to drop the bit is wrong wrong wrong but so often misinterpreted as 'round'.

Riding without a bit results in the same gap. The horse is behind the non existant bit. He must be. You can teach your horse to go in a false frame without a bit. The NHers have proven that. The Russian guy does that. The clicker trainers can do that.

That's not what you want. In dressage, you want the horse to always go to the bit. Strung like a bow.

I watched Bert Rutten wearing a headset and describing, second by second, as he rode an upper level horse at a clinic. It was all about riding the horse to the bit and pointing out (what we could not see) when the horse was not to the bit honestly (faking it). An eye opener. The whole ride was about this concept. The longitudinal contact with the bit at all times. No fancy stuff. This is the foundation for everything else. The horse must always be going from the hind end to the bit in dressage. He stressed that above all else and he was right. I think.

If you want to do circus tricks, parelli stuff and parade pony stuff you don't have to worry about that but please don't equate them. They aren't the same.That's fine but stop claiming they are the same.

Thanks .:).



Great post Eggy!

[PiaffeDreams]

read the methods above, use all those critical thinking skills. do you think stacie is just some poor dumb misled dressage person that just reads books and putters around? she isn't. she's one of the best upcoming riders we have and she is very classical.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Okay, SLC... do I know you? Seriously, I am really NOT one of the best upcoming riders. This is quite hysterical. I'm sure I doubt my own abilities quite enough, but I'd hardly go so far as to describe me as one of the best of anything.

Really... you ought to watch me ride. :eek:

[PiaffeDreams]

Piaffe dreams did a great job of explaining the great divide.

The most difficult thing to achieve in dressage is the positive tension/ circle of the aids. I don't know what else to call it. Asking the horse to drop the bit is wrong wrong wrong but so often misinterpreted as 'round'.

Riding without a bit results in the same gap. The horse is behind the non existant bit. He must be. You can teach your horse to go in a false frame without a bit. The NHers have proven that. The Russian guy does that. The clicker trainers can do that.

That's not what you want. In dressage, you want the horse to always go to the bit. Strung like a bow.


Thanks Egon... concisely summized it.

"Strung like a bow"... PERFECTO! (requires a bowstring!)

[prudence]

Actually, Stacie IS a wonderful rider! But perhaps more important to us who take lessons from her is her ability to communicate the art of dressage to those who wish to learn. Her passion as I see it is to figure out how to get the best from the individual horse and rider. She learns from everybody out there, and uses what works best for each unique horse and rider combination. A top notch teacher! <Hi Stacie!!:D>

[danee]

you are imitating the outward appearance of dressage from a very superficial point of observation of it, instead of actually doing it. it's a charicature of dressage, it's not dressage.

read the methods above, use all those critical thinking skills. do you think stacie is just some poor dumb misled dressage person that just reads books and putters around? she isn't. she's one of the best upcoming riders we have and she is very classical.

Hmmm, pretty amazing that you KNOW that Stacie is amazing and that you KNOW that I am an imitative charicature, when you have NEVER seen EITHER ONE OF US RIDE!!!!!!
And what about Walter Zettl and Luis Lucio- both AVID PNH fans? Are they poor, dumb, misled putterer's?!!


On this thread, or any thread, I have never proclaimed that Parelli is God to horsemanship, or that PNH alone will take you to first level, non-the-less GP!!!! I have not announced that all dressage riders are heavy handed fools or that bridle-less riding is the omega of perfect riding mastery!!! Why the personal attacks ON ME???

I feel bridle-less riding is the beggining- not the end, and considering that contact isn't until three rungs up, there is plenty of room for me to have fun with rhythm and relaxation on my horse without a bridle. That doesn't mean I don't understand the advanced concepts of contact, nor does it mean I can't obtain it!


No we do not agree. Please don't twist my words. Making the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult is quite different from ONLY stating 'making the right thing obvious.' Please don't split hairs- I was simply trying to add a touch of humor to this ice cold thread.



Okay, back to the tiny portion of this conversation that is actually constructive and intelligent...

actually it is EXACTLY like genetics because it is a system. you're putting in stuff that breaks down the system.

And yes, the English makes the math better because by studying the language in which it is described and become more proficient one can gain a deeper understanding of the mathematics. Being a teacher I can tell you that a student with a cognitive limitation in language will have difficulty in their mathematics studies. It doesn't mean they have the same problems in math, but it affects it. Working on strenghtening their abilities in linguistics will help them understand the language that describes math.

I'm not sure how learning dressage is more like genetic than learning. Stacie, what do you think about NH "breaking down the system?" I can see how that COULD happen, but how exactly is teaching my horse stuff at liberty or to back off seat alone going to destroy our dressage?

I've quoted him before, but I'll include it again... In my personal corospondance with Luis Lucio he said to "use Parelli to make dressage better, not to make it different." I feel that is exactly what I do- I use the training scale, and when riding with a bridle (which is MUCH more often than when I don't) I establish soft even contact- I should say my horse establishes contact, but obviously I'm riding in a way that encourages it.




Stacie, I know you are not the one making yourself out to be the "all-knowing savior of dressage" but since it has been rubbed in my face, it does make me curious as to what level you are riding? I couldn't find it on your website.

[lstevenson]

And what about Walter Zettl and Luis Lucio- both AVID PNH fans? Are they poor, dumb, misled putterer's?!!


I have never heard of Luis Lucio, and I'm not sure you can say that Walter Zettl is an avid fan. I think that is quite a stretch just because he has taught them some. He's just doing his job. He certainly doesn't seem to recommend Parelli's methods.




what do you think about NH "breaking down the system?" I can see how that COULD happen, but how exactly is teaching my horse stuff at liberty or to back off seat alone going to destroy our dressage?




It teaches the horse how to be "fake" on the aids. I think Egontoast explains it well here:



The most difficult thing to achieve in dressage is the positive tension/ circle of the aids. I don't know what else to call it. Asking the horse to drop the bit is wrong wrong wrong but so often misinterpreted as 'round'.

Riding without a bit results in the same gap. The horse is behind the non existant bit. He must be. You can teach your horse to go in a false frame without a bit. The NHers have proven that. The Russian guy does that. The clicker trainers can do that.

That's not what you want. In dressage, you want the horse to always go to the bit. Strung like a bow.

I watched Bert Rutten wearing a headset and describing, second by second, as he rode an upper level horse at a clinic. It was all about riding the horse to the bit and pointing out (what we could not see) when the horse was not to the bit honestly (faking it). An eye opener. The whole ride was about this concept. The longitudinal contact with the bit at all times. No fancy stuff. This is the foundation for everything else. The horse must always be going from the hind end to the bit in dressage. He stressed that above all else and he was right. I think.

If you want to do circus tricks, parelli stuff and parade pony stuff you don't have to worry about that but please don't equate them. They aren't the same.That's fine but stop claiming they are the same.

Thanks .:).

[danee]

I have never heard of Luis Lucio, and I'm not sure you can say that Walter Zettl is an avid fan. I think that is quite a stretch just because he has taught them some. He's just doing his job. He certainly doesn't seem to recommend Parelli's methods.

Luis Lucio is a member of the Spanish Olympic Dressage team, and if you look at Walter's website it most certainly does recommend PNH! I was at a clinic with him Aug 15 and since I had speakers in my ears I could here him constantly whispering to some auditors that "see there are never any problems with these Parelli people" and "dressage students never get that right the first time". He new I was a level 3 PNHer and praised me to death for it. He might not bring it up himself, but get him started on it and you'll see very quickly how passionate he is about it!



Quote:
Originally Posted by danee
what do you think about NH "breaking down the system?" I can see how that COULD happen, but how exactly is teaching my horse stuff at liberty or to back off seat alone going to destroy our dressage?


It teaches the horse how to be "fake" on the aids

If I string the bow when I ride with a bit (which is more often than not) and if I work on the bottom two tiers of the training scale when bridle-less (since contact isn't until the third tier on most models) how is that faking anything? Many of you tend to assume I never ride with my horse stretching into contact. Where do you get that?

[PiaffeDreams]

I'm not sure how learning dressage is more like genetic than learning. Stacie, what do you think about NH "breaking down the system?" I can see how that COULD happen, but how exactly is teaching my horse stuff at liberty or to back off seat alone going to destroy our dressage?

I think NH breaks down the system. If your horse backs off of your seat alone, you are not riding your horse forward. THE paradigm of dressage is "ride your horse FORWARD and straighten him." Since you are immediately not riding forward, you are not only not doing dressage, but you also cannot straighten the horse. Therefore, no dressage.

No one here is saying you can't do the above things. If that brings you fulfillment with your horse fabulous. Go for it. No one has said you CAN'T.

The only thing being said is why it isn't advisable for DRESSAGE which is quite an appropriate thing since this is a dressage forum. I've said my bits and why. I'm done- its not a debate for me. I don't question my choice of systems.

Stacie, I know you are not the one making yourself out to be the "all-knowing savior of dressage" but since it has been rubbed in my face, it does make me curious as to what level you are riding? I couldn't find it on your website.

Lets see. This weekend I'll be riding Intro at a schooling show.

[Musn'tGrumble]

If I string the bow when I ride with a bit (which is more often than not) and if I work on the bottom two tiers of the training scale when bridle-less (since contact isn't until the third tier on most models) how is that faking anything? Many of you tend to assume I never ride with my horse stretching into contact. Where do you get that?

I think you must have a fundamental misunderstanding of the training scales, this may clarify things a little:

"The training scale in a sense is a progression, working from the simplest to the most complicated requirements, but this is not entirely true, since elements from further along the scale are required to achieve the aims of the earlier principles. It should probably be seen more as a matter of emphasis."

[egontoast]

Danee, not everyone who is expressing a different view or who is not a fan of Parelli is attacking you personally. Most are not attacking you at all. I like the photos of Asia.

[slc2]

stacie, you have a better understanding of the basics of dressage and you can express yourself and that undertsanding, i am not worried about you.

to me, an 'upcoming rider' doesn't need to be someone who's going to devon or the olympics next year, even though that is also an incredible achievement.

a person who is growing in their understanding of dressage and can communicate it and teach that to students, someone who tries their best to learn and follow the traditional system of dressage, who is enthusiastic aand cares about horses, they are pretty darn great in my way of seeing things.

and no, danee, i did not say you are an imitative charicature, see, this si the part now, where you start twisting any opposing words around to make them sound ridiculous, and thereby cancel out any effect they might have. enjoy yourself. it's your own riding and progression that is affected, no one else's....unless you teach.....

but i also have seen that students who really care eventually break away from misled teaching and they get going on the path of learning, and not faking, dressage. a few don't, it's true and that's a shame. they could be having so much more fun. but that's the inevitable result when a country doesn't have a system of licensing a large percentage of dressage teachers and teaching them a consistent system, as they do in france, portugal, spain, germany, etc. these are countries that do better in dressage than we do because they have a large base of well trained and educated students and instructors.

and...i don't have to see you ride (but i have).

the dressage that you are doing is a charuicature of dressage. i am sure you are a nice person, you're just being led around by the nose, that's all. the problem is not that people learn incorrectly, either, but that they CLING SO HARD to what they HAVE learned incorrectly!

i don't have to see you ride. by your own explanation of your methods, iby seeing your teachers ride and seeing how their students ride, and seeing how they teach, there is not much more of the kimono to open up.

[Rusty Stirrup]

danee this is a dressage board. Don't try to push the river. Lovely coat on your horse and continued fun with your riding. :)

[pophorse]

Just to clarify, Luis Luis is not a member of the Spanish Olympic Team. Last few Olympics it has been Beatriz Ferrer-Salat, Ignacio Rambla, Rafael Soto and Jose Manuel Jimenez.
None of whom, BTW, are on the team any more since their top horses are done competing. Of the new riders that are on the short list for the Europeans not one of them is Lucio.

[dutchmike]

Did you check the para olympic list?.;)

[egontoast]

He was a member of the Spanish team at the Sydney Olympics

[AZ Native]

Hi to you guys who are on thw WAZ yahoo group. Stacie, I save many of your posts from that. You have your own folder !
Anyway, interesting note, apparently WAZ and David O'Conner were in the audience at the Utah tour stop.
Too ,wanted to add : Pat and Linda shoot themselves in the foot when they diss other riders, disciplines. The program ( old L 1 - 3 , and I think the idea with the new levels is the same but with a lowered bar ) is designed as a people teaching program. After L3 , one is supposed to start advancing thier horsemanship and hopefully be able to have something to offer the horse.People tend to stay too long, I did too and my horse didn't get a better deal sooner. I'm in the right hands now with my new dressage instructror. No , PNH is Not dressage. It did save my horses ( and probably my ) life, but as I said , stayed too long and I've moved on. The program,IMHO, has gone downhill , to put it mildly and Pat and Linda have, sadly, brought the derision and ridicule upon themselves.

[Bluey]

I am not going to read the whole 25 pages, so excuse me if someone has mentioned this already.
I have the CD of the "clinic" WZ gave the PP's and one other reiner fellow and mostly he started to say something, was not understood at all, let them just go around and around, saying a little here and there, seems a little disheartened and let them go.
He didn't seem to have made much of an impression in their riding, other than some very basic stuff.

Now, maybe they had stellar moments that they didn't show, but if you put out a CD about an event and edit it to sell, I would say that what is in it is the best they could get from that clinic and if so, it was a total :confused:.

Some people are so far apart on their world views and riding that the twain shall never met, short of divine intervention.;)

[DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"]

Well, I don't know Piaffe Dreams and I don't know Egontoast. And I think their descriptions were spot on - even better, I learned from their posts - it clarified things I have been thinking about, my trainer has been describing, and I have seen at several clinics.

To me, it comes down to a matter of trust. This may be more critical for me since my horse had been abused, he's very sensitive, and trust is A#1 with him. If you are reasonable, clear and concise about what you are asking, and he trusts you, he'll comply willingly and happily. To me, so much of Parelli abuses that trust.

I want to ask my horse to do things that make him more fit and a better mover. This will help extend his life and make him better able to carry me. If there's a crisis of some sort and our only way out of it is to jump the picnic table bareback, well, then, I'll do it. But then it wouldn't be a game. I would have developed the relationship necessary so that my horse would trust that I wouldn't do anything to put either of us in danger unless I really, really needed to.