Cunningham

[Hocus Focus]

For all you hunter breeding fans, have you met Cunningham? He was a standout in the warmup ring at Pebble Beach Classic. I was not in the hunter rings that much but he caught my eye enough so that I asked his rider about him.

Just thought I would bring his name up for those of you who are looking for new faces. I think he has had a very good year ranking high in national standings in first year green I believe, including the Oaks with championships and very good ribbons in the green conformation.

I am not sure how he finished up in the overall ribbons at Pebble but if his presence and manners were as good in the ring as he was in the warmup ring, I am thinking he stood out.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I believe this is one of his babies. http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/member.php?u=84956

Nice boy!

[Hocus Focus]

In a recent issue of Show Circuit Magazine, the one with Tom Selleck and Hannah on the cover, there is an inside fullpage congratulatory ad on Cunningham and there is quite a list of this seasons show accomplishments... perhaps he is one to watch for the hunter breeder folk.

[Mainiac]

I was really impressed with him at Devon. He really seems to have it all. Gorgeous looks, quiet temperment and alot of jump! I don't know why he didn't do better under the judges there. A tad base narrow...........????

[Chef Jade]

He is an absolute stunning horse to look at. :yes: However, his jump isn't so impressive for a hunter, IMO. It is likely because he has too much scope ( as if that is a bad thing :winkgrin: ). He just seems "dangly" to me. In addition, the ad in Show Circuit showed a so-so jump, and if I recall, he wasn't even square. In my mind, if this is the BEST picture this horse has taken.... well, again I just wasn't impressed in that area. But his presence is spectacular. :yes: I'd love to see him go around in the jumper ring!

[dorthyinoz]

Does he have a website?

[spacely]

Cunningham (http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/cunningham.htm)

I'm not a fan.

[fish]

Cunningham is presently #1 in the country in the Green Confo. Hunters and #4 in the 2nd year greens. He also stands 8th in the Regular Conformation hunters after showing only 5 times in that division. He usually wins the model. If I'm not mistaken, Devon was one of very few times (possibly the only time) he was out of the ribbons in the model this year, almost certainly because he had a puffy ankle acquired during his 22 hour trip East. At his first shows back in California, he not only returned to the top of the model, but with a change in farrier, started winning the hacks-- against the likes of Westporte and Charade (who won the hack at Devon) no less. As for his jump.... you'll get a lot of arguments from a lot of top judges if you don't like it. I have stacks of pictures of that horse over fences (and video, of course), and the bad jumps are pretty scarce. It is true that he has an explosive, scopey jump and could easily do the jumpers, but why put him someplace where his conformation, movement, temperament, and form would not be rewarded as they are in the hunters? Isn't it nice, too, to see a totally legitimate 4" horse-- one who makes 4' look as easy as 3'6"? I've known Cunningham since he was 3 years old, and when he doesn't pin over fences, it's generally because of a head shake or swap off due to a momentary distraction (he swapped off a few times at Devon) or, of course, the occasional missed distance.

And regarding those distances: his stride is huge. Even at Devon, where they were set unusually long, he was perfectly capable of eating them.

If I remember correctly, spacely is "not a fan" of Cunniingham because his owner did not rush off to get him approved by any of the US based Euro-registries when she imported him, preferring to prove her horse at the shows doing the job for which she purchased him rather than risking such a valuable horse at a 100 DT. My understanding is that approvals based on Cunningham's show record are presently under consideration.

I have a wonderful 4 year old by Cunningham, and my mare is back in foal to him for 2008, having had a late abortion (twisted umbilicus) last year.

Needless to say, I'm glad you like him, too, Reg.

P.S. There should be some nice photos of Cunningham's jump in the COTH archives-- Molly Sorge posted a very nice one from Devon and there was another in the magazine from one of his many Oaks/Bleinheim championships.

P.P.S. Cunningham is, of course, qualified for indoors and will be coming East for the Capital Challenge, etc. so people at this end of the country can see him there.

P.P.S. Thinking more about the jump: videos/photos at 3'6" are sometimes lackluster. He's a tall, leggy, scopey horse who would sometimes canter over a 3'6" course as if it were a short stirrup/crossrails set up. I remember his owner/trainer commenting last year that he needed reminding to be brilliant over every fence-- even the little ones! The only photo I recall seeing in which he might be considered "dangling," is one in which he's being ridden by a child.

[spacely]

If I remember correctly, spacely is "not a fan" of Cunniingham because his owner did not rush off to get him approved by any of the US based Euro-registries when she imported him,

Nice try, but not the reason I'm not a fan. I have seen enough to know he's not a horse I personally care for. I am sure that approvals would help him out though.

[2Dogs]

I saw him at Indio and at Thermal. I like him a lot! A few times he jumps a bit flat - but then, I always compare to my fav Sir Caletto :) -

he has a fantastic temperment - extremely nice stallion.

[fish]

Nice try, but not the reason I'm not a fan. I have seen enough to know he's not a horse I personally care for. I am sure that approvals would help him out though.

To each his/her own. In the meantime, I can assure you that with his record, Cunningham doesn't require the "help" of approvals to attract quality mares. (That was a joke, right??)

[omare]

Are there many Cassini I sons in the USA?

[arnika]

Very few. I've only seen one other showing at Wellington and I believe Betty Oare had one showing the jumpers at HITS Ocala this past winter. Very fabulous looking youngster, still a stallion I think, maybe 6 or 7 yo.

[fish]

Are there many Cassini I sons in the USA?

The best info. I have (admittedly not the greatest) would suggest that there are, at the most, 3: (1) If I remember correctly, a Cassini I was champion of a US 100 DT several years ago with the highest score up to that time. I have no idea what became of that horse after the test.
(2) Cunningham, out of a Contender mare (and excellent stamm line), who was purchased by Mary Slouka and imported directly after his 3 year old Verband Approvals,
(3) I believe I saw an announcement recently that another Cassini I son was recently imported.

I haven't made a point of looking, however, being very happy with Cunningham as the match I was seeking for my mare.

[EquineLVR]

Are there many Cassini I sons in the USA?

Chino is a Cassini I son www.windsorfarm.net - I have seen him in person and even though his head is not the prettiest he can jump the MOON and has a fabulous, quiet temperment. His owner has also chosen to go the route of proving through sport and not through approvals.

Cascani at October Hill is also a Cassini I son. http://www.octoberhill.com/cascani.htm

Both these Cassini sons are showing in jumpers however NOT hunters.

[fish]

Chino is a Cassini I son www.windsorfarms.net - I have seen him in person and even though his head is not the prettiest he can jump the MOON and has a fabulous, quiet temperment. His owner has also chosen to go the route of proving through sport and not through approvals.

Cascani at October Hill is also a Cassini I son. http://www.octoberhill.com/cascani.htm

Both these Cassini sons are showing in jumpers however NOT hunters.

Thanks very much for the update, but I think the link for Chino is not right: I get a Windsor Farm featuring QH's???

[EquineLVR]

Thanks very much for the update, but I think the link for Chino is not right: I get a Windsor Farm featuring QH's???

sorry Windsorfarm.net - NO (s) OOPS...

[holsteinersrock]

Whether you like him or not, you must admit he is bred out of the wazoo, with Cassini I (who btw had a very successful career as an international show jumper, see http://www.holsteinerverband.biz/cms/index.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=32&idart=189&pageno=2) to Contender, who never did have a show career but proved his prepotency by his extra-ordinary offspring.

It is disputable whether Contender or Cassini I is the "most seeked after" sire in Germany (especially Holstein), but both score pretty high in being coveted beyond the quota they are allowed to cover.

I do not know Cunningham's owners or their politics and goals, but just looking at the horse on paper and his performance record he stands out to me. He may not sire the prettiest head or the snappies knees, but if you look at rideability, scope, conformation and the "big picture"... it's all there? ...again, I have not seen him in person, and once again, it depends on the MARE that you breed to him as to what you get!!!

Cassini I's full brother Cassini II is offered by frozen semen in US, I have seen him throw a pretty head and "modern type" and the semen, allegedly, is dynamite. Fox Fire Farm has the goods.

There is also an approved Cassini I son Cascani standing at stud in US, go to http://www.octoberhill.com/cascani.htm and I believe Contigo M is by Cassini I... where is he now???

Anna

[EquineLVR]

Good question about Contigo M - he did the 100DT here in the USA in 2000 at Rancho Murieta.

FISH - might this be the Stallion you were thinking of as he did win the 100 DT that year.

[arnika]

When I googled Contigo M, I got a 2004 Holsteiner page that showed him activated for 2004 but he was also listed as serum positive for EVA as of 03/02. He was listed as vaccinated but not until 2003 so I'm not sure if he is truly EVA positive or just seroconverted due to a prior vaccination.

It did have owner/handler info listed from then.

[SueL]

Whether you like him or not, you must admit he is bred out of the wazoo, with Cassini I (who btw had a very successful career as an international show jumper, see http://www.holsteinerverband.biz/cms/index.php?client=1&lang=2&idcat=32&idart=189&pageno=2) to Contender, who never did have a show career but proved his prepotency by his extra-ordinary offspring.

It is disputable whether Contender or Cassini I is the "most seeked after" sire in Germany (especially Holstein), but both score pretty high in being coveted beyond the quota they are allowed to cover.

I do not know Cunningham's owners or their politics and goals, but just looking at the horse on paper and his performance record he stands out to me. He may not sire the prettiest head or the snappies knees, but if you look at rideability, scope, conformation and the "big picture"... it's all there? ...again, I have not seen him in person, and once again, it depends on the MARE that you breed to him as to what you get!!!

Cassini I's full brother Cassini II is offered by frozen semen in US, I have seen him throw a pretty head and "modern type" and the semen, allegedly, is dynamite. Fox Fire Farm has the goods.

There is also an approved Cassini I son Cascani standing at stud in US, go to http://www.octoberhill.com/cascani.htm and I believe Contigo M is by Cassini I... where is he now???

Anna

I "met" Cunningham at Devon. He was done showing, about ready to load up in the van and had a lot of "pinto" markings. LOL. He was, IMO, an absolute gentleman, puppy dog temperament and stood up a most impressive horse. Even with the yellow stains.

I agree with you about the bloodlines. Cassini I on a Contender mare? Fantastic!

MHO, I think the hunters are a bit too easy for him, but I'll not begrudge his owner her choice of disciplines for her stallion.

His type is extraordinary IMO - very modern, upstanding. Not pretty, pretty as many of the modern dressage lines are, but handsome nonetheless.

He's a nice horse.

Sue

[Tiki]

If I remember correctly, spacely is "not a fan" of Cunniingham because his owner did not rush off to get him approved by any of the US based Euro-registries when she imported him, preferring to prove her horse at the shows doing the job for which she purchased him rather than risking such a valuable horse at a 100 DT.That's a rather strange excuse for not presenting him. His website says he is fully approved with the Holsteiner Verband, so he would not have to do the 100 Day Test. He only has to be presented to any registry since he's already approved in Germany.

[spacely]

That's a rather strange excuse for not presenting him. His website says he is fully approved with the Holsteiner Verband, so he would not have to do the 100 Day Test. He only has to be presented to any registry since he's already approved in Germany.

Exactly. It makes me think there is a reason other than "hunter people don't care about papers" or whatever the latest excuse is that he's never been presented in this country. He was rather unimpressive at Devon according to those that saw him there.

FWIW, I breed for the hunter ring & care about papers.

[coriander]

Actually, some hunter people do care about papers as they breed retired mares. I know several. And their horses show. And win. And sell with good price tags, etc. (Thus they would seem to be the kind of market an SO might wish to target :confused:).

[Foxtrot's]

Concertogrosso "being coveted beyond the quota they are allowed to cover" - a quota? Who decides?

[arnika]

The Holsteiner Verband.

For some of the top stallions, you have to purchase a breeding to a newer Verband stallion and only then will you be allowed to breed a mare to the top guy.

By the way, I think Cunningham is a lovely stallion and would breed a mare to him in a heartbeat. As stated above, a Cassini I over a Contender??? No problems there! Handsome is just icing on the cake.

[fish]

Good question about Contigo M - he did the 100DT here in the USA in 2000 at Rancho Murieta.

FISH - might this be the Stallion you were thinking of as he did win the 100 DT that year.

Yes. That's the one.

And Cunningham, BTW, has a gorgeous head and neck-- which he very reliably throws. :) His knees (and hind end, too) are nothin' to sneeze at either. Unfortunately, I no longer have a premium membership, but I have plenty of spectacular photos of Cunningham o/f if anyone wants to email me.

[fish]

That's a rather strange excuse for not presenting him. His website says he is fully approved with the Holsteiner Verband, so he would not have to do the 100 Day Test. He only has to be presented to any registry since he's already approved in Germany.

I don't bother much with registries, but my understanding is that at least in the US-based registries there's a difference between the 3 y.o. approvals and full licensing given after performance requirements have been satisfied. Over the last few years, Cunningham's owner has frequently been approached by various registries about presenting him and has continually worked to do what she believes to be in the best interests of her wonderful horse. Whether the discussions involved 100 DTing or inspection sites, her primary concern has always been the safety and well being of her stallion. If and when her concerns have been satisfied and her schedule permits, Cunningham will be presented in order to satisfy the desires of mare owners wanting to register their foals. The fact is, however that, especially in the H/J arena, registry approvals, etc., not at the top of most people's priorties lists. If they were anywhere near as meaningful as some of you seem to think they are, Zarr and Popeye K prior to this year would certainly not have enjoyed the popularity that has in fact been theirs.

If you want more details than that, I suggest you call Cunningham's owner. My patience with these kinds of insinuations is wearing pretty thin.

Speaking of little details that have aroused my curiousity, however: does anyone happen to know why Westporte would show in the Green Conformation hunters but not show up for the model?

P.S. I was at Devon, and met many people there who were very positively impressed by Cunningham, comng over to admire him and inquire about him much as Reg apparently did at Pebble Beach. Devon is a tough venue, especially for hunter stallions, and he turned in very respectable rounds. Popeye K didn't exactly show his best at Devon either. Guess that must mean the rest of his record is meaningless, right? How many stallions even qualified??-- I counted, and could only find 2 who (if you'll excuse the expression) had the balls to show up and compete against the multitude of unflappable geldings. Competing in the hunters is hard with stallions. Those few with the temperament and style (not to mention training and financial commitment) to reach the top of this game deserve better, IMO, than to be subjected to nitpicking and nasty inuendo.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

Cute horse, Fish!

Sounds like Cunningham has a lot of nice traits that he passes on! I personally don't like that first jumping picture of Cunningham at all http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/cunningham2.html but in some of the other photos he did look better http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/cunningham3.html.

[Silver Bells]

I "met" Cunningham at Devon. He was done showing, about ready to load up in the van and had a lot of "pinto" markings. LOL. He was, IMO, an absolute gentleman, puppy dog temperament and stood up a most impressive horse. Even with the yellow stains.

I agree with you about the bloodlines. Cassini I on a Contender mare? Fantastic!

MHO, I think the hunters are a bit too easy for him, but I'll not begrudge his owner her choice of disciplines for her stallion.

His type is extraordinary IMO - very modern, upstanding. Not pretty, pretty as many of the modern dressage lines are, but handsome nonetheless.

He's a nice horse.

Sue


Sue, you have such a way with words. He seems to me like he wants to jump the moon... either way he's a very talented boy. :winkgrin:

[Hocus Focus]

I can certainly tell you all that to judge any horse from one single photo and his position of knees says very little of the things that matter most and I speak from having made a living of photographing horses. I have seen more than one very successful Grand Prix Jumper jump like a "flying moose", and I don't think winnings were less because of it. There are quite probably a few very good examples of top hunters who fit that bill as well. Brains override beauty any day in my books. I can think of one in particular who had the special quality and was little more than an average jumper, but he still sold for 1 million dollars. Not bad for a horse that some might consider average.

Bottom line is, let's not assassinate a nice horse over one iffy pic. Temperament and heart wrapped up in an impressive package works for me. Perhaps far too much emphasis is placed on the "trophy" look anyway.

I was at a horse show... I was seeing lots of very nice horses...every now and then something jumps out at you...I saw a stunning horse at a distance, being ridden bareback by a young girl meandering about while horses were coming and going in all directions, and something told me, that has to be a stallion just by the way he carried himself, but nothing about behavior indicated what one might expect from a stallion, he was a bit vain perhaps, or some might call that presence. He had a teddy bear attitude, something that is hard to see in a picture, which appealed to me personally.

As I approached him, I was taken by a tall impressive extremely well mannered horse in a moment of relaxation after the show. I liked him. That is not to say he is "the best there ever was, or the best there will ever be" and certainly I see no need for anyone to feel their opinion of him should be changed by my views. However, I do think he is very worthy of note and am thankful for the information put forward by others who too felt him noteworthy.

Thank you.

Let's not let this thread get "marish". Please.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

[QUOTE=Hocus Focus;2618366]I will add just a couple of small things. First of all, I can certainly tell you all that to judge any horse from one single photo and his position of knees says very little and I speak from having made a living of photographing horses. I have seen more than one very successful Grand Prix Jumper jump like a "flying moose", and I don't think his winnings were less because of it. There are quite probably a few very good examples of top hunters who fit that bill as well. Brains override beauty any day in my books. Both is best of course.

QUOTE]

I agree with you that you simply cannot judge a horse by one picture however, I would also tend to think that for Cunningham's stallion page nothing but his best would be featured. I personally do not have much of an opinion of him at all b/c I don't know enough about him but I will say that there is a ton of talent out there in Hunter Land and plenty of note worthy stallions that possess 'the jump' and that amateur friendly attitude that so many are looking for. Solely based on the 3 pictures I saw of him on his webpage, I do not have any 'wow' feelings like I do about their other stallion.

Anna

[Hocus Focus]

Anna, I agree of course... but that is more a problem of having booked the wrong photographer in many cases.....:lol::lol::lol:

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

Anna, I agree of course... but that is more a problem of having booked the wrong photographer in many cases.....:lol::lol::lol:

;):lol:;)

[fish]

Anna, I agree of course... but that is more a problem of having booked the wrong photographer in many cases.....:lol::lol::lol:

Or a web designer making poor choices from a stack of photos....

If you're really interested in evaluating the horse's jump, I recommend his DVD. If you still don't like him, I guess we've got a problem with all that judging that's put him at or near the top of 3 divisions this year.

Oh, well.

[fish]

[QUOTE=Hocus Focus;2618366]QUOTE]

I do not have any 'wow' feelings like I do about their other stallion.

Anna

What "other stallion"? I believe Mary Slouka, Cunningham's owner, only owns the one stallion, Cunningham, at present, having sold Czechmate, her Carthago stallion, to a couple in Tenn. last year.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

[QUOTE=RheinlandPfalzSaar;2618435]

What "other stallion"? I believe Mary Slouka, Cunningham's owner, only owns the one stallion, Cunningham, at present, having sold Czechmate, her Carthago stallion, to a couple in Tenn. last year.

Westporte, http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/stallion.htm have no idea if Mary Slouka owns this one or not but they are both on the same website - I should have been clearer.

I am sorry if I offended you. I truly think that your horse is darling. All I am trying to say is that I was not 'wowed' by the pictures on Cunningham's webpage, I even said in my post that I know nothing about him other than just what I've seen in the pics. I do still stand by what I said about normally the best pictures go up on the website and I would certainly hope that their is an owner or trainer involved in picking out which pictures are going to represent your horse to the breeding public. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying their horrible pictures by ANY means, I am sure that he is a lovely stallion choice to breed to with the right mare.

Anna

[spacely]

Westporte & Cunningham are NOT owned by the same people. Country Lane (Westporte) hosts that page for Mary as they bred a mare to him.

I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Westporte, have bred to him for next year & will likely continue to do so. He's a fabulous producer (& approved too).;)

I do believe there is a reason that Cunningham has not been presented for approval in this country other than the owner having no interest in doing so, but who knows what it is. You can say what you want Fish, but going to an inspection likely wouldn't have any negative effect on him. Heck, for some registries, he may not even have to be presented. He may just be approved based on his testing scores, performance record & approval in Germany.

[phoebe05]

Spacely I would love to hear the speculation.

I can't imagine that the owners of Westporte would breed to a stallion that had something so wrong with him that no registry would take him.

Mary is not one for marketing. The only website she has for Cunningham is a link on Westporte's site with old pictures. The link is to show who their mare was bred too and they nicely added contact information. If Mary isn't interested in creating her own website or investing in a well made DVD/Video why would you not believe she didn't care about what registries her stalion was accepted by? She has chosen to invest her time and money into having a top hunter. Obviously that is her priority and her choice. It does not mean there is something wrong with her stallion.

[spacely]

I never said there was anything wrong with him. Yes, I have heard a few things, which I won't repeat, but I've heard stuff about a lot of other stallions too. Is it true? Who knows, but I won't repeat it.

[fish]

Thank you, RPS. I think my colt is pretty cute, too. I think also, that the WOW factor is pretty subjective and it's probably a good thing. Otherwise we'd all be running to the same stallions and messing up the gene pool.

Mary has, BTW, finally gotten around to making some pretty nice DVS's and videos. Otherwise phoebe is right on the money when it comes to Mary "not being one for marketing." She has always ridden stallions and bought for her own use, never with any intention of attracting outside mares. I had to do quite a bit of research on the Verband website even to learn of Cunningham's existence, had to call Germany to get the necessary contact information, and bred to Cunningham on the basis of Felix Einhaus' recommendation, video footage from the 3 year approvals, and a series of wonderful conversations with Mary, who I've found to be a wonderful person tirelessly dedicated to the best interests of her horses. Beyond that, I strongly recommend calling Mary if you want to learn the reasons why she has not presented Cunningham. Sure beats "I've heard a lot of stuff.... Is it true? Who knows..." IMHO.

For my own part, I had no trouble whatever believing Mary's explanations for avoiding inspections. The mare I've been breeding to Cunningham is an ISR/OLD premium/approved TB, but I found the site and procedures at her inspection so unsavory that I never attended another. If Mary finds a registry, inspection site, etc., that meets with her approval-- which is, apparently in the works-- I might consider presenting a horse again. Otherwise, I couldn't care less. I've had many inquiries about my Cunningham colt from superb horsepeople and not one of them has cared about papers. In my experience, getting WB approval/premium award on my TB mare has been a complete waste of time and money-- unless you want to count its usefulness on occasions like this-- and as a learning experience :) I certainly agree that the inspection I attended would have been a very dangerous one for Mary's stallion: the 3 stallions I saw presented were free jumped in an outdoor arena with perimeter fencing no higher than 3'. Cunningham would have jumped out of that arena in a heartbeat-- hardly a good situation from a safety/liability standpoint! Could such a situation do harm to Mary's stallion-- I would definitely say so! Does this stallion need US approval to meet Mary's goals for him?-- not unless she's changed her goals considerably over the past couple years.

If Cunningham is presented and approved, I can assure you that it will be done out of consideration for those mare owners who truly love Cunningham and also very much want WB registration papers for their babies. It is certainly nothing the stallion himself (or his owner) needs. I just wish mare owners were more appreciative of this fact and not so snarky about a horse who certainly seems to have proved far more re: his talent, soundness, temperament, movement, conformation.... through his show record than could ever be established through any WB inspection I know of.

Of course, I shouldn't be surprised-- there were some pretty remarkable threads about Popeye K's approval (or lack thereof) , too. First there were all the complaints that he hadn't been "approved" by the "right" registries, then when he was presented, there was all the debate over whether hunters (even those with the strongest performance records out there) were good enough for WB approval anyway!

Guess it's disagreement that makes keeps the world going around. I'm just pretty sensitive about my kids' Daddy-- extremely proud of him and his career-- and of a stallion owner who's also become a dear friend.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

I think also, that the WOW factor is pretty subjective and it's probably a good thing. Otherwise we'd all be running to the same stallions and messing up the gene pool.


Could not agree with this more. :D

[fish]

Could not agree with this more. :D

I think we can also agree that finding the right stallion for a particular mare is really what this should be all about. Although Westporte is a very nice stallion, I think he would be a very poor match for my mare, a heavy hunter type TB who needs a long-legged, pretty-fronted stallion like Cunningham to give me the babies of my dreams. Finding a horse by Cassini I (who epitomizes WOW in my eyes!) able to do this has been pretty exciting. It gets my head spinning at times. I recognize, however, that many other people have mares-- especially TB's-- with very different needs.

[spacely]

I think we can also agree that finding the right stallion for a particular mare is really what this should be all about.

I agree with this & know that not every stallion is a match for every mare.

What I do not agree with is producing more unregistered horses. Unregistered = grade no matter how nice. And before you go jumping down my throat, I own a "grade" WB that I bred. He is by an Alme son o/o a Pregelstrand mare. I went to register him & found the SO didn't pay his fees, so no papers. He's a gelding & has a home for life with me.

I'm just pretty sensitive about my kids' Daddy

You're like the one man ad agency for him. I think he's well bred & has proven himself in the ring, but not my taste & I'll leave it at that.

[fish]

What I do not agree with is producing more unregistered horses. Unregistered = grade IMO no matter how nice.
.

And what's wrong with "grade" horses? It's a tried and true cliche that we don't ride papers. Guess you'd be a whole lot happier, too, if Teddy hadn't been on our Pan Am team, or done what he did at Rolex-- and think that Wynn Norman's breeding operation ought to be condemned for producing "grade" horses like him? I guess Warioto is also not a respectable operation in your book and all those unregistered IHF champions never should have been bred, not to mention all those cross bred ponies who sell for 6 figures on the basis of what they can do in addition to what their families have produced?

If I sound like a "one man ad agency" for Cunningham, it's because I strongly believe in the honored breeding principle of "breed the best to the best and hope for the best." It doesn't say anything about breeding "the best" if and only if it's attended _______ inspections and possesses _______ papers. I'm certainly not going to limit my breeding choices to horses "approved" by registries which have a history of showing little or no respect for the standards and goals of an arena in which I want my horses to compete! If you have so little faith in your own eye for a good hunter or in the eyes of hunter judges that you feel the need for European approvals in selecting stallions for your hunter mares, by all means continue to do things your way. I would, however, appreciate it if you'd stop tossing nasty insinuations and name-calling (i.e., I gather you do use "grade" as a derogatory term) in the direction of those of us who choose to do things differently.

[spacely]

:rolleyes::sleepy:

So if you believe you've bred the best - let's see the product. And your mare for that matter.

[fish]

:rolleyes::sleepy:

So if you believe you've bred thge best - let's see the product. And your mare for that matter.

My colt (pictured as a late 2 year old) is in my profile with me in the saddle. If you don't like him (or my mare, or Cunningham), that is, IMO, your problem. Our sport is, like dressage, judged subjectively, and these horses have all received very positive attention from people whose opinion I have reason to respect much more than yours.

That's it for me: time to agree to disagree. I do believe that I've never made a derogatory remark about your horses or anyone else's and have no intention of inviting you to express any more of your nastiness toward mine.

[arnika]

by spacely:

:rolleyes::sleepy:

So if you believe you've bred the best - let's see the product. And your mare for that matter.

Rude much???

[holsteinersrock]

Concertogrosso "being coveted beyond the quota they are allowed to cover" - a quota? Who decides?

"Arnika" is right, the Holsteiner Verband decides. Both stallions are over-booked (AI). The last I heard Contender caps at 250 mares per season. He's an EVA shedder, but he still gets a huge number of breeders wanting to breed to him, and as stated above, if a breeder wants to breed to him the first time, or two years in a row, they must use a young stallion first and alternate young and him.

His son Cristo out of a Carthago dam has been a pretty popular young stallion, see http://www.holsteinerverband.biz/cms/front_content.php?idcat=32&lang=2&getInfoBox=no&pageno=3.

I don't know what the max amount of mares is for Cassini I.

According to a Verband employee his extraordinarily fertile brother Cassini II bred some 400+ mares last year.

So I suppose they make the cut according to how many doses of good semen they think they can get @ each collection from the few stallions that are super coveted.

Now don't think every stallion in Europe has the number of breedings per year than these guys have. Most have a few, some are a real hard-sell, some have a decent following but nowehere near Contender or Cassini I.

Anna

[Samotis]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. While one stallion works for one person he may not work for another. There are plenty of IHF nominated stallions that are in WB registries, while some are not. The ones that are not are not really hurting much such as Zarr, and Cunningham. Cunningham shows a lot and does quite well. While I think he is beautiful to look at, he was not right for my mare, so I passed. Same with Westporte. I thoght he was very attractive, but again one persons opinion.

Kind of like the hunters, you win one day and the same trip the next day and you get nothing! All one persons opinion!

I have never bred before, my mare will be having a foal in Feb by Roc USA. We will see what I get! And yes, there were plenty of debates from a lot of people on him. He did do the 100 day test, but scored low, he is registered, but people still had comments. Oh well! I liked him, so I bred to him.

Good luck with all your babies! They will all be beautiful in some way registered or not!:)

[Tiki]

He appears to be a very handsome and well bred stallion. However you don't seem to understand the approval process, probably because you also seem to hate the European registries. His website indicates he has full approval in Germany with the Holsteiner Verband. He wouldn't have to do the free jumping because of his show record, therefore the comment about the dangerous 3' only fence would not apply. He would have to stand for inspection and be presented on the triangle. The 3' fence comment might apply if a particular registry would want to see his free gaits. He would NOT have to do a 100 Day Test, he's already done one in Germany. If some of the registries are approaching the owner to present him, I just can't imagine why she doesn't unless she hates registries as much as you seem to.

[fish]

He appears to be a very handsome and well bred stallion. However you don't seem to understand the approval process, probably because you also seem to hate the European registries. His website indicates he has full approval in Germany with the Holsteiner Verband. He wouldn't have to do the free jumping because of his show record, therefore the comment about the dangerous 3' only fence would not apply. He would have to stand for inspection and be presented on the triangle. The 3' fence comment might apply if a particular registry would want to see his free gaits. He would NOT have to do a 100 Day Test, he's already done one in Germany. If some of the registries are approaching the owner to present him, I just can't imagine why she doesn't unless she hates registries as much as you seem to.

#1 I don't "hate" the European registries. I just don't care much for people making derogatory remarks simply because other people choose to go about breeding sport horses without going that route. There is a huge difference between "hating" organizations and not finding them particularly useful in the pursuit of one's own goals. (Get nasty enough, though, and don't be surprised if it generates a bit of ill will coming back!)

#2 Cunningham has never done a 100 DT-- not here, not in Germany. As I said previously, he was imported directly after the 3 year old Verband Stallion Approvals and Auctions. (Interestingly enough, though, German Holsteiner breeders remain very interested in him and his achievements here, so much so that he is featured [with 2 lovely color photos] in a book newly published in Germany on the descendants of Cottage Son xx.)

#3 As I've now said at least 2 or 3 times, Cunningham's owner has been talking to a few of the registries and is in the process of trying to negotiate presentation/inspection under conditions satisfactory to all concerned.

#4 It is quite true that I "don't understand very much about the approval process." This is not, however, because I "hate the European registries." It's because I have thus far found them irrelevant to my goals and therefore see no point in learning about all their rules and procedures. Perhaps this will change as more registries become more interested in learning about the h/j world and respecting the needs of that market. We shall see. I for one have been extremely happy to see the KWPN opening a hunter book and giving credit for hunter performance. From my point of view, that's a big step forward from the old position that only performance in the "international" disciplines would count. Who knows what's to come?

[Tiki]

Well, you sure had me fooled about your opinion of registries and registration, however, from his website Cunningham scored 9.0 on type and is approved by the Holsteiner Verband in Germany. Since you don't follow the process, the 3 year old approvals are by either a 100 Day Test (several years ago) or a 70 day test. These are lifetime approvals for breeding. Again, all his owner would have to do is present him. He would not have to repeat the 100 Day Test.

[spacely]

Cunningham's owner has been talking to a few of the registries

So what registries are they? Hopefully they are credible ones... You seem to be his personal press agent, so I'd also think you'd be willing to say.

I have thus far found them irrelevant to my goals

Fish, exactly what are your goals? To get in the ring? To breed more unregistered horses? If you told us what your, some of us may back off.

I agree with Tiki. What you post regarding registries fooled me too. You do seem to hate them all & certainly don't understand the process.

Cunningham is approved. In Germany. It would not be difficult for him to be approved in this country. Is that concept really that hard to understand?

[fish]

Well, you sure had me fooled about your opinion of registries and registration, however, from his website Since you don't follow the process, the 3 year old approvals are by either a 100 Day Test (several years ago) or a 70 day test. These are lifetime approvals for breeding. Again, all his owner would have to do is present him. He would not have to repeat the 100 Day Test.

And I repeat: Cunningham never did a 100DT-- or a 30 day or 70 day one either. I know this from the stallion's owner. If you have questions about her website, I suggest you call her for clarification.

Also, the couple from Tennessee who bought Cubito, the champion of the last Verband 3 yo Approvals left him in Germany to do the 100DT AFTER the "Approvals" and after they bought him at auction, so the 100 day testing is apparently not a prerequisite for the 3 yo Approvals.

In an effort to make myself clear: Mary Slouka, owner of Cunningham, made a different decision from the couple from Tennessee: she imported Cunningham directly after the 3 year old "Approvals" and without him having undergone any 100 day testing.

(Although I don't follow registry "processes," I do follow horses (and bloodlines) that attract my attention pretty carefully.)

As for what Cunningham's owner "would have to do" -- or be willing to do-- for approval here, I figure that's between her and the registries. I'm happy to breed to Cunningham and do business with Mary regardless. I think she's done a fantastic job with this horse.

[phoebe05]

Tiki,
That is not Cunningham's website. He does not have one. That is simply a link designed by the mare owner to showcase who she has bred her mare too. She added the stallion owners contact information. The score could have come from a foal inspection correct? I am certainly no expert on inspections or stallion tests but I seem to remember there being a score for type with the foals.
At any rate Cunningham is not registered with any of the stallion books. For some this is a deal killer for others it is not it doesn't make him any less of a horse. I can think of quite a few very popular Hunter Sires who not only were not registered but did not perform....Special Event off the top of my head and a number of others who certainly never entered the hunter ring....Voltaire, Rio Grande, Escudo, Alcatraz, Cheenook ect. ect. We will know if a few years what Cunningham's worth is as a sire. You have to decide what you are breeding for is it a foal to sell or a foal to keep and show. Barring some accident a foal that you keep until they are showing will have no need for papers ( I am talking about hunters) and this sort of breeder will consider a stallion like Cunningham breeders who breed to sell the foals will always take issue with his or any other stallions lack of registration as this is a big issue for potential buyers.
For the life of me I can't understand why threads about this stallion become so ugly. The stallion owner does not post here and she is the only one who can explain why he is not registered. You don't have to agree with her and you don't have to breed to her stallion but you shouldn't jump all over anyone who has chosen to do so. Like Westporte, Paparazzo, Escapade and a long list of other up and coming Hunter Sires time will tell....I am talking about performing over fences not on the line.
Cunningham has a lot to offer for both hunters and jumpers. He has proven bloodlines. He is a beautiful horse. He has proven that he is sound his show schedule is one that not many would hold up to not just the number of shows but number of divisions. He is well mannered being collected for shipments and still standing in the Model I can't think of any others doing that right now. He is leggy, he is tall, he has a gorgeous head and neck and tremendous scope. He is not a horse that I would breed a mare to if you wanted a hack winning 3' hunter....but he could be a great cross with one ;)

[fish]

I don't know about "stallion books," but do know that Cunningham (like all of Mary's broodmares), is registered with the Holsteiner Verband (Lebensnummer 21 01138 98). He was, in addition, #40 in the sale of "Approved Stallions" held after the Holsteiner Korung of 2000 (so I guess he may have been 2 rather than 3 at the time?), and sold to the USA for 142,000 DM at that sale. This much I learned online from the Holsteiner Verband website when I first went looking for Cassini I sons. I was much more interested in finding those bloodlines and seeing that horse than I was figuring out what "Approved" or "registered" meant-- and I that's still the case. I just don't get the big deal. Like Phoebe, "I can't understand why threads about this horse become so ugly." If you are interested in this stallion, why not ask his owner about him, and if you're not, leave those of us who are happy to have him to do our own thing and pursue our own goals-- whatever they may be?

As for the sales issue, with all respect to Phoebe, I was receiving inquiries from people interested in buying my Cunningham colt pretty much from the day he was born. Not one of them cared about papers. Keep in mind that hunter breed show people, for example, always keep an eye out for nice youngsters and as a group they don't seem to care any more about papers than H/J riders do. If they did, they wouldn't be breeding to Zarr and paying good $ for his babies.

[CAJumper]

I saw Cunningham in person for the first time today at the Menlo Charity Horse Show. What a gorgeous horse - and he just seemed so calm and relaxed about everything around him. Looked spectacular over the 4' jumps. I'll definitely be watching for his foals in the coming years - will be interesting to see what he produces. He certainly appeared to have a lot of great qualities to pass along. :)

[DownYonder]

Young warmblood stallions who pass a stallion inspection in Germany are considered "approved". This approval gives them a temporary breeding license. To keep that breeding license, they have to meet the performance requirements - I believe - by the end of their 6 y/o year. So it sounds as though Cunningham received temporary approval but because he has not met the German WB performance requirements, his breeding license has expired (if he is a '98 model, then his license expired in 2004). My guess is that because he was never performance tested, most registries would want to see him jump if they were to inspect him.

And for the person that asked "what is wrong with grade horses?" - grade horses rarely have any kind of proof of parentage done on them. That is one major benefit of the warmblood registries. It gives buyers a measure of reassurance that they are in fact buying an offspring of that famous stallion or mare. Also, it is impossible to compile meaningful stats about the best sires, dams, breeders, etc., for a particular discipline when the performance rankings are filled with horses whose parentage is either unknown, or unproven. How, for instance, does a buyer know for certain that the young horse they are paying $$$$$$$ for is REALLY sired by Popeye K, or Westporte, or Cunningham, or Alla'Czar, any of the other heavily touted hunter sires, unless it comes with registration papers backed up by proof of parentage via DNA analysis? I'm not trying to be catty, just explaining why registration papers benefit EVERYONE.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

Good post DY

[PineTreeFarm]

And for the person that asked "what is wrong with grade horses?" - grade horses rarely have any kind of proof of parentage done on them. That is one major benefit of the warmblood registries. It gives buyers a measure of reassurance that they are in fact buying an offspring of that famous stallion or mare. Also, it is impossible to compile meaningful stats about the best sires, dams, breeders, etc., for a particular discipline when the performance rankings are filled with horses whose parentage is either unknown, or unproven. How, for instance, does a buyer know for certain that the young horse they are paying $$$$$$$ for is REALLY sired by Popeye K, or Westporte, or Cunningham, or Alla'Czar, any of the other heavily touted hunter sires, unless it comes with registration papers backed up by proof of parentage via DNA analysis? I'm not trying to be catty, just explaining why registration papers benefit EVERYONE.

Most horses showing in the 3'6" and up Hunter divisions have been purchased through the buyer's trainer or an agent. The job of the agent is not to find a horse with papers, it's to find a horse that meets the performance goals of the buyer. These horses sell for a great deal of money and are usually not purchased by the end buyer as a young horse.
Can the horse do the job ? is the question asked. Many of the these buyers have no idea what the parentage of the horse is or even what registry is involved. If parentage was of much importance then you wouldn't see "German Warmblood" Sire Unknown Dam Unknown on the USEF recording.

Just because a horse comes with registration papers that is no guarantee that those papers actually belong to that horse. If an agent is not trustworthy then folks just stop using them.

There have been so many threads complaining about unapproved stallions. I just think it's jealousy. Zarr and many of the others get tons of mares a year. Popeye K got hundreds before he was approved by a Euro registry. Many of the breeders have used 5-6 mares a year as an average book for a warmblood stallion in the US. If that is true I can see why use of an unapproved stallion starts fights when it beccomes apparent that the horse gets more mares than their stallion does.

Anybody know what the procedure is with the DNA samples? Are they actually run against a database to see if the offspring matches the parentage given on the papers? If the dam is a TB is the sample matched to the JC's samples?

[fish]

Young warmblood stallions who pass a stallion inspection in Germany are considered "approved". This approval gives them a temporary breeding license. To keep that breeding license, they have to meet the performance requirements - I believe - by the end of their 6 y/o year. So it sounds as though Cunningham received temporary approval but because he has not met the German WB performance requirements, his breeding license has expired (if he is a '98 model, then his license expired in 2004). My guess is that because he was never performance tested, most registries would want to see him jump if they were to inspect him.

And for the person that asked "what is wrong with grade horses?" - grade horses rarely have any kind of proof of parentage done on them. That is one major benefit of the warmblood registries. It gives buyers a measure of reassurance that they are in fact buying an offspring of that famous stallion or mare. Also, it is impossible to compile meaningful stats about the best sires, dams, breeders, etc., for a particular discipline when the performance rankings are filled with horses whose parentage is either unknown, or unproven. How, for instance, does a buyer know for certain that the young horse they are paying $$$$$$$ for is REALLY sired by Popeye K, or Westporte, or Cunningham, or Alla'Czar, any of the other heavily touted hunter sires, unless it comes with registration papers backed up by proof of parentage via DNA analysis? I'm not trying to be catty, just explaining why registration papers benefit EVERYONE.

Seems to me that the problems you describe are not ones with "grade horses," but with record keeping. FYI, many of us who have bred "grade" horses are careful students of bloodlines and keep careful records of our horses' families and full documentation of breeding transactions. DNA is almost always an option if we want further verification-- and as Down Yonder says, how many registries actually do more with that than to file away samples/data? How often do they actually check a horse's DNA against that of his/her parents?

In the meantime (also as DY points out) until we have a reliable database, horses going through the Registry processes (and their breeders) have no more protection against losing their names and being listed as horses of "unknown parentage" than JC registered, half Arab, QH or "grade" babies do. As long as that remains the case, I'm sticking to breeding the best horses I can regardless of papers or registries.

IMO, if you want papers to become meaningful tools for identification and pedigree reseach something has got to be done to make ID, complete with access to pedigree, a requirement for showing. Until that happens, I see little hope for the registries-- or anyone else-- being able to reach the admirable goals you mention.

P.S. Good points, Pine Tree. Come to think of it, threads on Popeye K could get pretty ugly, too, and I believe it was the posting of a lovely picture of Zarr which precipitated the complaints which led to the "no brags" rule on this forum.

[Tiki]

In the meantime (also as DY points out) until we have a reliable database, horses going through the Registry processes (and their breeders) have no more protection against losing their names and being listed as horses of "unknown parentage" than my JC or "grade babies" do. As long as that remains the case, I'm sticking to breeding the best horses I can regardless of papers.

IMO, if you want papers to become meaningful tools for identification and pedigree reseach something has got to be done to make ID, complete with access to pedigree, a requirement for showing. Until that happens, I see little hope for the registries-- or anyone else-- being able to reach the admirable goals you mention.Now on this, Fish, I agree with you one hundred thousand percent!!!!!!!!!

The problem I have with unregistered, unpapered horses, actually applies to registered, papered horses as well - i.e. if you go to most hunter shows and ask the rider who the sire and dam of their horse is (and I'm even talking here about the $100,000 Budweiser Classic) they have no idea. What the lack of being able to track a horse means is that that horse can never be duplicated. Of course, not all full siblings are alike, any more than human siblings are alike, but many, many traits have been proven to be heritable, e.g. jump, rideability, trainability. If you have the bloodlines, you have a chance to get something close.

The approval issue has nothing to do with jealousy. Hunters and dressage are 2 completely different worlds. Maybe I could make a fortune breeding hunters as I have really, really nice mares - I just don't care for the hunter world, dressage is my absolute passion! and that's what I breed for.

Whether a horse is registered and papered, or 'grade' and the 'documentation bloodlines' kept in a drawer at home, once the horse is sold, the papers (if they existed) lost or thrown away, the name changed, and the horse reregistered with USEF, ALL pedigree information is lost forever!!!

And yes, DNA is kept on file and matched when the horse is bred. If you allegedly breed stallion 'X' to mare 'Y' and produce a foal, DNA type the foal and send the information in to the registry and the foal's DNA doesn't match stallion 'X' AND mare 'Y', the foal cannot be registered!!

There are tooooooooo many people who seem to think that the Dept of Ag horse identification system invades their privacy. HUH?????? It will permanently identify our horses. They will have to have DNA testing done and have a microchip. All horses should be identifiable. For those who breed with the GOV and get microchips, how many times have the police raided your home and invaded your privacy? It's NOT gonna happen!

It sounds like the issue of approval with Cunningham is a matter of proper terminology. The 100 Day Test was split into a 30 Day licensing test and then a choice of the performance route or a 70 Day Test. Perhaps his 'approval' was actually licensing at the end of a 30 Day Test. In that case, if the owner wants to pursue full approval he would have to be presented, and if his show record is at a sufficient level he could be approved on that basis rather than doing a 100 Day Tes.

Regardless, until full horse identification and pedigree and performance testing, with ID checks at all shows is instituted in this country we will never be able to reliably track pedigree and performance. However, with registration and approval anyone should easily be able to see the tremendous strides that HAVE been made in WB breeding in this country. All the inspectors, and now many of the European judges have now said that our foals are on a par with what is being produced in Europe. Registration and tracking DOES work.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Approval has nothing to do with proving pedigree. There are many ways to document pedigree in a non - european approved stallion. PHR, AWS, RHPSI, as well as the Oldenburg registries will all issue pedigree papers on unlicensed stallion's foals. The Dutch and Hanoverians will too. These registries will also DNA type the foal.

It is unfortunate that even fully registered and branded horses have their pedigrees "lost" with our lack of useable database.

[fish]

Hunters and dressage are 2 completely different worlds.

Well, Tiki, I'm afraid this is another area in which we disagree. All my horses, including my daughter's A circuit pony, have shown both hunters and dressage, frequently in the same month-- and done a little CT and field hunting, too. IMO, overspecialization in breeding, training, whatever, is rarely a virtue. Indeed, it reminds me a bit of those riders you complain about who don't see the value in understanding and appreciating the bloodlines they're sitting on. I'm hardly the first person to observe that jumping (both in bloodlines and in training) can do a lot to improve gaits (especially the canter), while dressage can do a lot to improve both jump and movement for the h/j--- not to mention accuracy, etc. for equitation classes. No matter what you're breeding for, much of the athleticism, movement and rideability riders need in a horse will be the same regardless of discipline.

[Fairview Horse Center]

There are tooooooooo many people who seem to think that the Dept of Ag horse identification system invades their privacy. HUH?????? It will permanently identify our horses. They will have to have DNA testing done and have a microchip. All horses should be identifiable. For those who breed with the GOV and get microchips, how many times have the police raided your home and invaded your privacy? It's NOT gonna happen!

I think it is more about the having to track every time you take a horse off your "premises" to record where he is constantly. There also have been issues with microchips migrating. Not something I want moving a bit to under the saddle area. ;) Some horses are pretty sensitive about things there. I would rather see a lip tatoo.

[Tiki]

:sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::s igh::sigh::sigh: I completely fail to understand how you can possibly think that having a passion for dressage can be translated to I don't every do anything else. Oh well. Carry on.

[scottishgirl]

I would rather see a lip tatoo.

lol, you haven't read the Woody thread in Off Course have you? :D:lol::D

[fish]

:sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::sigh::s igh::sigh::sigh: I completely fail to understand how you can possibly think that having a passion for dressage can be translated to I don't every do anything else. Oh well. Carry on.

So it's only hunters that you "just don't care for" and consider a "completely different world" while dressage is what you breed for? Please forgive my mistranslation.

[DownYonder]

...as Down Yonder says, how many registries actually do more with that than to file away samples/data? How often do they actually check a horse's DNA against that of his/her parents?

Well, this comment just shows how little you know about the warmblood registries. The reputable ones - which is almost all the ones with ties to a German or Dutch registry in Europe - DO check each horse's DNA against its parents. Most of these registries use UC-Davis, and there is often a big backlog at that lab in the summer as the DNA samples come rolling in. Registration papers are not issued until the lab returns a result verifying the parentage - i.e., the foal's DNA "matched" that of its parents. Of course, to do this, the lab has to have a DNA report on file for each parent, so sometimes registration papers are delayed while the lab awaits a DNA sample from one of the parents.

As for other comments by PineTree and others - yes, there will always be unscrupulous dealers who try to pass one horse off as another. It's a lot harder to do this, though, if the horse is registered, and wise buyers who think they are getting a registered horse would be very well advised to ALWAYS check the horse's markings against those shown on its registration papers. Inspectors for many of the WB registries spend a certain amount of time describing a horse's markings on its papers, and this info is recorded on the registration papers. Not only that, but most inspectors are very careful when inspecting a mare or stallion to verify that the horse they are looking at matches the registration papers presented with it. I have seen several instances where a mare was denied entrance into the Oldenburg MMB because her markings didn't match the registration papers. Of course, if the horse doesn't have any registration papers that list the horse's markings, then a buyer really can't be certain at all of what they are getting.

And although it is laudable that many hunter breeders (or others that don't breed registered stock) keep meticulous bloodline records, what PROOF is there when a buyer goes to purchase a horse from them? I could breed my mare to the red bay sabino QH down the street, and claim her foal was by Popeye K and no doubt sell it for big $$$. Who would be the wiser? Not that I would do that - but believe me, there are plenty of unscrupulous people out there who WOULD do something like that. Again - registration papers benefit- and help protect - EVERYONE, including stallion owner, mare owner, buyer, trainer, agent, etc.

[Dinah-do]

My comment here. If I was looking at a big $ young horse and it did not move or jump like a big $ young horse should I would not buy it - no matter who it's parents were. If it was by a big ole quarter horse and it looked and jumped like a Popeye K then I would buy it. The biggest cost is yet to come.

[PineTreeFarm]

And although it is laudable that many hunter breeders (or others that don't breed registered stock) keep meticulous bloodline records, what PROOF is there when a buyer goes to purchase a horse from them? I could breed my mare to the red bay sabino QH down the street, and claim her foal was by Popeye K and no doubt sell it for big $$$. Who would be the wiser? Not that I would do that - but believe me, there are plenty of unscrupulous people out there who WOULD do something like that. Again - registration papers benefit- and help protect - EVERYONE, including stallion owner, mare owner, buyer, trainer, agent, etc.

There are other ways to verifiy parentage. Breeding certificates, contracts with the stallion owner, etc. And if I didn't trust the seller ( who is often the breeder in the case of a young horse ) I wouldn't be making the purchase.
Most folks are not vanity buyers, they won't do the deal unless the foal/weanling etc looks like they can do the job. Maybe it's just me but I'm not buying a horse for a performance horse no matter who the sire is without evaluating the individual in front of me.

Many, many years ago I would from time to time go with a barn owner to visit the local horse dealer. After I rode the critter there would be a lengthy price discussion ( usually entertaining ) followed by a question , "Do you want papers for that horse?" . If the answer was yes the buyer and seller would review various 'possibilities' to see which best matched the horse or pony. Now the buyer had already decided that the horse was perfect for his lesson program or a sale prospect, whatever. The papers were really there to make the end buyer feel better. Had nothing to do with the quality of the horse just 'insurance' as he put it 'for the darn fool buyer so they can show their friends a piece of paper'. So papers that matched the horse sure weren't worth much.

I haven't heard of anybody using DNA to verify their big ticket hunter purchase. Although anything is possible And seeing that many are USEF recorded without info I really don't think that's a happening thing. Can it do the job? Yes or No

[fish]

[QUOTE=And although it is laudable that many hunter breeders (or others that don't breed registered stock) keep meticulous bloodline records, what PROOF is there when a buyer goes to purchase a horse from them? I could breed my mare to the red bay sabino QH down the street, and claim her foal was by Popeye K and no doubt sell it for big $$$. Who would be the wiser? Not that I would do that - but believe me, there are plenty of unscrupulous people out there who WOULD do something like that. Again - registration papers benefit- and help protect - EVERYONE, including stallion owner, mare owner, buyer, trainer, agent, etc.[/QUOTE]

In the case of my horses, I have folders on each which include correspondence and contracts between myself and the stallion owners, nominations, show records, vet records, registration/certificates of ownership where applicable (e.g. my mare and Cunningham are both registered), magazine clippings featuring each horse and/or his/her parents, etc., etc. It would be pretty hard to collect all this documentation if my horses and I weren't legit. Fact is, most of my horses have BEEN registered. It's just never mattered. I've never been in a situation aside from a keuring where anyone cared or asked to see my horse's papers and even in that case I felt the reading given them was pure formality: the German inspector was pretty ignorant of TB bloodlines and no testing or inspection of any kind was done to assure that the mare I presented corresponded to her papers. I'm glad to hear the registries have improved in that respect, but still have no use for approvals and inspections. I just wish we had a reliable database. Then the horse ID #'s would be registration enough for me.

As for my ignorance/little knowledge of WB registries, we all make choices on how to spend our alloted time. There's very little I find less rewarding than sorting out registry rules, books, processes, etc., etc. so I stopped doing it a long time ago. At the risk of sounding rude myself, the overriding impression I get of registries on these boards is that they must have considerable snob appeal which I do not find attractive or in any way productive.

We're a long way from the OP, though, and have been through these same old registry/papers issues often enough to make retyping the trainwreck seem pretty silly.

I need to go feed. To all a goodnight.

[DownYonder]

Most folks are not vanity buyers, they won't do the deal unless the foal/weanling etc looks like they can do the job. Maybe it's just me but I'm not buying a horse for a performance horse no matter who the sire is without evaluating the individual in front of me.

Of course, it goes without saying that there is no reason to buy a horse if it doesn't look as though it can do the job.

Many, many years ago I would from time to time go with a barn owner to visit the local horse dealer. After I rode the critter there would be a lengthy price discussion ( usually entertaining ) followed by a question , "Do you want papers for that horse?" . If the answer was yes the buyer and seller would review various 'possibilities' to see which best matched the horse or pony.

Yes, but if the buyer expected registration papers from a reputable registry, then dealers like the one you describe would have a much harder time scamming their customers.

I haven't heard of anybody using DNA to verify their big ticket hunter purchase.

Again, if the horse comes with registration papers from a reputable registry, then the DNA analysis and proof of parentage has already been done.

[DownYonder]

In the case of my horses, I have folders on each which include correspondence and contracts between myself and the stallion owners, nominations, show records, vet records, registration/certificates of ownership where applicable (e.g. my mare and Cunningham are both registered), magazine clippings featuring each horse and/or his/her parents, etc., etc. It would be pretty hard to collect all this documentation if my horses and I weren't legit.

Wonderful for you. But after the horse changes hands 3-4 times, how does the end buyer know what kind of records you have?[/QUOTE]

the German inspector was pretty ignorant of TB bloodlines and no testing or inspection of any kind was done to assure that the mare I presented corresponded to her papers.

Well, that is just a shame that the inspector never matched the horse to the markings listed on her papers. It does unfortunately happen that we get one at the inspections who doesn't match her papers. In the cases I have been aware of, it has been TB mares. One had reversed leg markings from what was described on her JC papers. She was placed in the Oldenburg (GOV) PreMare Book II until her owner provided corrected registration papers. Luckily, the owner was able to get the papers reissued from JC with correct markings by providing a statement from the breeder and photo of the mare as a foal with her dam. In the other case, the owner had bought the mare from a HUNTER BREEDER and was given a photocopy of JC papers that sort of matched the mare, but were not quite correct. Oldenburg (GOV) refused to accept the mare into its Main Mare Book, even though she had been accepted into the MMB of two other WB registries. I don't know what the outcome of that situation was. Last I heard, the owner thought it was too much hassle to try to get correct papers, but was breeding the mare anyway and registering her foals with one of the other registries.

Here's another thing - someone on this thread (can't remember who) was touting the fact that Cunningham is a son of Cassini. Really? How do we KNOW he is a Cassini son? Oh, yeah - he has REGISTRATION PAPERS from a reputable registry that state he is a Cassini son. That registry's reputation and ability to continue to do business is resting on the authenticity of those papers, so we can probably rest assured that the proper steps were taken to verify that he is in fact a Cassini son before the papers were issued.

Seems like some of you hunter breeders want to have it both ways. You boast that you never register any of your horses, yet you sing the praises of TBs for hunter breeding (most of which, BTW, are the result of a well-established REGISTRATION system), and also want to brag that your stallion or your friend's stallion is some imported warmblood stallion with highly regarded bloodlines (authenticated via a well-established REGISTRATION system). Your reasoning just doesn't make sense to me.

[fish]

Wonderful for you. But after the horse changes hands 3-4 times, how does the end buyer know what kind of records you have?

And what's the difference between that and all those WB's you registry people complain about who change hands without their papers and disappear into the woodwork anyway??



Here's another thing - someone on this thread (can't remember who) was touting the fact that Cunningham is a son of Cassini. Really? How do we KNOW he is a Cassini son? Oh, yeah - he has REGISTRATION PAPERS from a reputable registry that state he is a Cassini son. That registry's reputation and ability to continue to do business is resting on the authenticity of those papers, so we can probably rest assured that the proper steps were taken to verify that he is in fact a Cassini son before the papers were issued.

Seems like some of you hunter breeders want to have it both ways. You boast that you never register any of your horses, yet you sing the praises of TBs for hunter breeding (most of which, BTW, are the result of a well-established REGISTRATION system), and also want to brag that your stallion or your friend's stallion is some imported warmblood stallion with highly regarded bloodlines (authenticated via a well-established REGISTRATION system). Your reasoning just doesn't make sense to me.[/QUOTE]

Excuse me, but no one is "boasting" of not registering horses. I'm complaining as loudly as anyone about the lack of a reliable database which can provide the kind of useful tracking we all need to make papers worth the $ to procure them. I've spent a small fortune registering horses over the last 40 years and whether they came from ISR/Old, JC, half-Arab-- wherever-- those papers have not proved to be worth the cost of their ink. Unfortunately, while there are countless ways of verifying parentage these days, none of them has been made meaningful within the show horse context: they don't affect our ability to show or our horses' or riders' careers.

What bugs me about the situation with the Eruo-registry folk is the way in which so many of them will, out of one side of their mouths, attack hunter folk for not registering with THEIR organizations, while going on out the other about how they "don't care" about hunters, and hire inspectors for whom the hunter world is literally foreign and to whom "hunter" is a derogatory term. It seems to me that there's a lot of pretense/expectation that registration with your organization is more valuable that other ways of documenting parentage. I don't think the facts bear that out. As Darlyn points out, when it comes to documenting parentage, you're hardly the only fish in the sea. Maybe if other registries follow the lead of the Dutch and start doing more to learn about hunters so that approvals and inspections become relevant to the needs of the h/j world attitudes toward that aspect may change. Until then, I don't think it makes sense to expect people to join organizations and pay to subject their horses to evaluations and processes whose goals have little or nothing to do with their own and are often downright inimical.

What I like about the JC, AQHA, and every other registry out there except your Euro folks' is that none of their members has ever attacked me or anyone else I know for the decisions they make about documenting (or not) their own horses. I've rarely encountered such high and mighty intrusive, etc., people as some of the registry people on these boards. I'm really glad I have friends involved in these organizations who are not like that and think you should be, too. Otherwise it could be awfully easy to develop the "hate" of which I've already been accused.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2621097#post2621097)
I haven't heard of anybody using DNA to verify their big ticket hunter purchase.

Downyonder
Again, if the horse comes with registration papers from a reputable registry, then the DNA analysis and proof of parentage has already been done.

It does unfortunately happen that we get one at the inspections who doesn't match her papers.

I think what PTF was trying to say is that once papers are issued, no one then does DNA testing each time a horse is sold, inspected, etc. Markings on papers can be from a similar marked horse, and there is no testing to prove that it is the same one. From running shows, I can tell you that similarly marked horses are not that rare, and in this day and age. My papers on one of my mares issued in Germany have NO diagrams, and just say, "stocking, half stocking".

[PineTreeFarm]

Yes, but if the buyer expected registration papers from a reputable registry, then dealers like the one you describe would have a much harder time scamming their customers.

Again, if the horse comes with registration papers from a reputable registry, then the DNA analysis and proof of parentage has already been done.

But they did get papers from a reputable registry, the JC :)
I don't think the papers made more than a few hundred dollars difference in the price. You missed the point, these horses were sold as peformance
horses or prospects, not breeding stock. Papers were not relevant. None of the end buyers felt they were scammed.

But a lot of high ticket performance hunters are sold without papers. So I don't think those buyers are worried about the papers or who the sire is.
No proof of parentage, no proof of identity, no worries. Hunters are different, the inspection scores mean little to nothing.

I think a registry system would be nice but I don't think it's USEF's job to do that. WB's are only a small part of the horses recorded with them. Saddle horses, arabs, QH's etc, have a single national organization for each breed or type that represents the interests of those owners and breeders. They issue papers, track performance, offer futurities and incentives.
Stop blaming USEF for all your perceived problems. Create a single, unified NA sporthorse breeders assoc. Right now each registry is too small to have any influence with USEF. One registry, one set of dues, one mare inspection, one set of results to maintain.

[fish]

Right now each registry is too small to have any influence with USEF. One registry, one set of dues, one mare inspection, one set of results to maintain.

That hardly seems likely given how much time and energy the registry folk spend knocking each other when they aren't knocking h/j land!

Besides which (and more to the point), I don't want or need "mare inspection," stallion approvals, etc., etc. Like many other breeders, I prefer to design my own breeding program, select my own mares and stallions, and also make my own decisions about whose "approvals"/opinions I seek while doing so. What I want and need is accurate data-- nothing more and nothing less. For that, a database which reliably id's and tracks all the horses showing is essential. From my point of view, our existing, fragmented system/s provides an overabundance of places to get horses inspected, approved, evaluated in one way or another and very little in the way of DATA reliable enough to establish links between bloodlines and performance in our horses. Heck, we can't even get the data necessary to establish any correspondence (or lack thereof) between the youngsters deemed "suitable to become..." by our breedshow judges and what those same youngsters do as adults. Without tracking, as breeders and as shoppers, we're pretty much shooting in the dark.

[LovesHorses]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but he was champion in the Green Confo at Menlo!

[Hocus Focus]

Congratulations Cunningham on your "Front Page Performance" at Menlo!

Will your next souting be the Oaks to further level the field of competition?

It is looking like a noteworthy season for your boy!.... Enjoy the "Limelight! Make hay while the sun shines!"..... I believe is the saying!

As you can see the crowd is not always friendly!!!

[2Dogs]

aww, that's great - Menlo remains one of my all time favorite shows! How wonderful!

[fish]

Congratulations Cunningham on your "Front Page Performance" at Menlo!

Will your next souting be the Oaks to further level the field of competition?

It is looking like a noteworthy season for your boy!.... Enjoy the "Limelight! Make hay while the sun shines!"..... I believe is the saying!

As you can see the crowd is not always friendly!!!

Who was it who asked the (I think) famous question: "Do you hate me because I am beautiful??"

(GO BRIGGS (aka Cunningham)!!! YAY, JOHN AND MARY!!! AND ON TO THE NEXT SHOW :)!!!)

[Fairview Horse Center]

Stop blaming USEF for all your perceived problems. Create a single, unified NA sporthorse breeders assoc. Right now each registry is too small to have any influence with USEF. One registry, one set of dues, one mare inspection, one set of results to maintain.

We DO need a North American Breeders Association, but NO ONE but the USEF will be able to track results, period. The USEF must, MUST step up to the plate and get a program for ONE number, RELIABLE pedigree if available, and RELIABLE proof of identity if not. THEN they have to track ALL results.

[phoebe05]

At Menlo won 3 out of 4 over fences and 2nd in the 4th over fence, won the model....didn't need to bother with the hack :lol::lol:

[DownYonder]

We DO need a North American Breeders Association, but NO ONE but the USEF will be able to track results, period. The USEF must, MUST step up to the plate and get a program for ONE number, RELIABLE pedigree if available, and RELIABLE proof of identity if not. THEN they have to track ALL results.

Agree with this. But what do you mean by reliable proof of identity? That the horse is really who the owner says he is by name? That is great, and I support it 100%. But you cannot compile meaningful stats on top sires, dams, etc., without some kind of proof of parentage. You cannot assume that a horse is by SuperStud just because his owner keeps meticulous records. There has to be a piece of paper from a reliable and reputable AGENCY that does proof of parentage via DNA analysis to authenticate the pedigree. Whether this is a European WB registry, an American registry, a new registry specifically for show hunters, whatever - it is a necessity that proof of parentage be authenticated by someone other than the breeder or owner.

[holsteinersrock]

ummm..... both Cassini I and Contender are alive, so all you need to do is a DNA, plus their DNA is on file, forever....

...so if a few hairs are pulled from Cunningham's mane it's pretty easy to find out who he is, or is not.

If he was indeed approved in Germany he ought to be automatically eligible for an AHHA breeding license in USA, and the Holsteiner Verband should have his DNA already on file.

I don't think there is much possibility for a mistaken identity in his case, insofar all of what is said about him is true.

Anna

[Oakstable]

We verified he was approved by the Verband and was sold shortly thereafter.

[Tiki]

Was this full, lifetime approval, or as Fish intimates, only licensing after the 30 Day Test?

[Oakstable]

It's been a while since we checked, but I think he was accepted to go on to the next step, but he was sold. I am not familiar with what the Holsteiner Verband requires for lifetime approval.

I doubt he was given lifetime approval.

I had a German friend check for me and it was not difficult. Maybe someone could get back to them and ask if his identity is verified by DNA and on file.

[fish]

The AHHA voted last week to give Cunningham lifetime approval for breeding on the basis of his show record.

[Hocus Focus]

Congratulations for this achievement among his many others.

[sporthorsefilly]

Congratulations to Cunningham on his approval by the American Holsteiner Horse Association!

I got to see him up close and personal at the Capital Challenge. Very, very nice boy! I also met his owner and rider, and got to watch him go on the web TV.

I do love hunters :)

[jmjhp]

What classes was he in, I would love to see him.

[sporthorsefilly]

Green Working Hunter second year

Green conformation Hunter, 2nd yr

Regular Conformation Hunter

here is a page for him http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/cunningham.htm

country lane is just hosting the page for the owner

[fish]

What classes was he in, I would love to see him.

He shows in Green Conformation Hunters, 2nd Year Greens, and Regular Conformation Hunters. He's been very uncharacteristically tense indoors, though, with his only prior indoor experiences having been his keuring in Germany and the World Cup, both of which were pretty electric affairs for him. I just hope he has a good enough experience this trip east to begin to "loop and lope" by the end of indoors the way he's been doing in California all year.

[Sebastian]

The AHHA voted last week to give Cunningham lifetime approval for breeding on the basis of his show record.

That's GREAT news. My now 4 year old filly just started under saddle and she is DEFINITELY daddy's little girl! :)
Seb

[fish]

That's GREAT news. My now 4 year old filly just started under saddle and she is DEFINITELY daddy's little girl! :)
Seb

Pictures, pretty please!!! It's been way too long since I've seen the bodacious Bridgette (sp?) !!

[spacely]

Finally.....

[Sebastian]

Pictures, pretty please!!! It's been way too long since I've seen the bodacious Bridgette (sp?) !!

Even better, I've got some video. Hoping to get it downloaded over the weekend, then I'll send you a link.

She's just tremendous, and EASY. She's at Keenridge right now, and both Hilda and her asst. Lahua (who's starting her) are madly in love. All that "jumper" breeding and she's got the DQ's drooling -- go figure. :winkgrin:

How's Cuddles doing???
Seb

[tri]

"Again, if the horse comes with registration papers from a reputable registry, then the DNA analysis and proof of parentage has already been done."

I was told point blank by more than one euro registry official AND by a contact at UC Davis's lab, that the only time the DNA is checked against the parents is if there is a special inquiry - that it is NOT done for every horse - only if someone puts forth an official question about the parentage.

BTW, I've been to an inspection where a stallion jumped out of the ring during free jumping and into a HUGE (80 + acre ) pasture full of mares & foals.

[fish]

Even better, I've got some video. Hoping to get it downloaded over the weekend, then I'll send you a link.

She's just tremendous, and EASY. She's at Keenridge right now, and both Hilda and her asst. Lahua (who's starting her) are madly in love. All that "jumper" breeding and she's got the DQ's drooling -- go figure. :winkgrin:

How's Cuddles doing???
Seb

Sounds good to me-- although I'll have to borrow a computer to see it: I have a desk top on dial-up :(

Cuddles and Cayenne are both doing great. The boy and I had our 1st jumping lesson with Tony Albertson a week ago, and Tony was very impressed -- poles, x-rails, a gate, then a line, then a line with the gate raised-- all in a new place, too! Cuddles was SO proud of himself! Next time, gymnastics.

Cayenne, my friend's 3 year old filly, has got to take the cake for super easy though-- (while also impressing the local DQ's). I pretty much just got on her and rode. After two weeks here, my friend took her back home and did stuff like 4 hour trail rides with the local cowboys on her-- you know-- the ones with the beer, barbeque, chuckwagons, mules and stuff.

Who knows what alll that jumper blood can do.

It was, after all, a dressage horse (Claire) by Cassini I who led me to Cunningham. I LOVE that Bridgette is at Hilda's!

[Hocus Focus]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Finally.....

[Bent Hickory]

I was told point blank by more than one euro registry official AND by a contact at UC Davis's lab, that the only time the DNA is checked against the parents is if there is a special inquiry - that it is NOT done for every horse - only if someone puts forth an official question about the parentage.

With regard to the AHS, this statement is not true. The AHS verifies parentage. Ask Mo Swanson of Rolling Stone Farm about a foal she named "Disgheyser."

[tri]

It would be interesting to get a list together of ones that do and ones that don't - and not just from a poster "saying" they do or don't, but concrete information.

[Bent Hickory]

It would be interesting to get a list together of ones that do and ones that don't - and not just from a poster "saying" they do or don't, but concrete information.

But not quite as interesting as getting "concrete information" regarding the so-called "euro officials" and "contact at UC Davis's lab" claiming that the verification doesn't occur. Because afterall, my information is SO much more unreliable than yours...

[tri]

Bent Hickory, get off your bitch wagon. I wasn't saying mine was better or yours was better, just saying, to clear it up, it would be interesting to get a list from an official source - I am not official and you aren't either, sweetheart.

[Bent Hickory]

... to clear it up ...

It's clear enough.

[ahf]

I am not official and you aren't either, sweetheart.

Ummmm.....Bent Hickory is a Board member of the American Hanoverian Association.

[DownYonder]

I was told point blank by more than one euro registry official AND by a contact at UC Davis's lab, that the only time the DNA is checked against the parents is if there is a special inquiry - that it is NOT done for every horse - only if someone puts forth an official question about the parentage.

Not sure which "euro registry" you are talking about, but I know for a fact that Oldenburg (GOV) submits DNA to UC Davis for EVERY foal it inspects here in North America. If it doesn't get a parentage confirmation back from UC Davis, the foal doesn't get registration papers until its REAL parents are determined. In fact, we just had a conversation on another forum about a foal who was determined to be sired by a different stallion than the one the breeder had selected and paid for. Apparently the semen was accidentally switched at the vet's, and no one was the wiser until the DNA results came back from UC Davis after the foal's inspection. The vet also handled semen from another well known stallion, so they checked the foal against that stallion's DNA report, and he turned out to be the sire.

If there is any registry issuing registration papers without confirming parentage, then I feel sorry for its breeders and feel that the authenticity of those papers will always be suspect.

And btw, congrats on Cunningham getting lifetime approval from AHHA.

[VirginiaBred]

I have enjoyed getting the opportunity to see Cunningham go on the Capital Challenge live feed (H/J Forum). He has a lovely jump!

[tri]

"Ummmm.....Bent Hickory is a Board member of the American Hanoverian Association."

I think there would be more to a "list" of euro registries than the AHS, don't you think?? Is she an official for all of them?? ;)

Maybe someone could get Rhonda from the BWP to weigh in?

AHF & BH, for some reason, is this topic offensive to you? You could always decide to put away your brooms & not participate, you know.

[mbj]

I like Cunningham a lot. Great bloodlines, seems like a very nice temperament, and very scopey. I too would love to see him over bigger jumper fences, but understand why one doesn't do that with a very successful conformation hunter!

[TatteredDaydreamer]

IMO, he seems wasted on the hunters. I'd much prefer to see him in a Jumper ring, he just doesn't strike me with the "hunter" picture as some of the other fantatsic stallions out there.

[fish]

IMO, he seems wasted on the hunters. I'd much prefer to see him in a Jumper ring, he just doesn't strike me with the "hunter" picture as some of the other fantatsic stallions out there.

"Wasted" in the hunters?? He's 1st in the country in the Green Confos., 5th in the 2nd years, and 7th in the regular confos. after only 7 shows at 4'. What "other fantastic stallions" in the hunter ring???? He was one of only 2 at Devon, the only one at the Capital Challenge, and appears to be the only hunter stallion showing at Washington as well.

Sure, he could easily do the jumpers-- but why "waste" a horse capable of proving he can hack and model as well as jump in magnificent form in a division where only speed and power over fences are counted-- and where there are stallions galore already? Stallions who have proven themselves as hunters at this level-- I think I could count them on one hand.

I think, too, that those of you who have only seen Cunningham when he's come East or at the World Cup have not gotten a fair picture of the horse. With very few exceptions, stallions are more sensitive to changes in their surroundings and touchier to ride than other horses-- that's one of the reasons we geld. Where Cunningham usually shows-- at the Oaks, Del Mar, Thermal, etc.,-- he is much more relaxed and always wins at least one championship (often 2, and sometimes 3)-- routinely beating horses like Andiamo, Genuine, Scout, etc., who've been very big winners on this side of the country. Unfortunately for Cunningham, the Capital Challenge was his first real indoor show-- his other experiences with indoor arenas having been his keuring (for which young stallions are routinely hyped up) and the World Cup-- another extremely electrifying affair. The first day, the poor guy was scared to go into the tunnel-- the World Cup had not been a pleasant experience for him.

With a few more indoor miles, I think the east coast will also see that Cunningham (despite his testosterone) is perfectly capable of loping the lines on loopy reins with the best of them. If that weren't the case, his show record would hardly be what it is!

[spacely]

I think, too, that those of you who have only seen Cunningham when he's come East or at the World Cup have not gotten a fair picture of the horse.

I have seen him here in CA & I agree with TatteredDaydreamer. "Wasted" is not a term I'd use, but perhaps better suited to the jumper ring would be more like it. Granted, I think that 3 pro divisions is a bit much & could be part of his issue. He also looked NQR to me when I saw him.

Fish, just because you've bred to him & think he walks on water, doesn't mean that everyone else should feel the same.

[tri]

We have so few stallions in the U.S. that compete at ANY level and now we have one that is at the top of the game ABSOLUTELY proven in the show ring - whether you like him or not - he is PROVEN in sport, and here you guys are, tearing him down. It isn't a matter of walking on water, it is a matter of supporting stallions and other horses proving themselves in sport in North America. Beats all the breeders drooling over european triangle trotters who has never stepped foot in competition.

[Bent Hickory]

AHF & BH, for some reason, is this topic offensive to you?

The topics are seldom offensive. What is offensive are the inaccuracies, the hyperbole, the misinformation, the exaggerations, etc., in general the constant attemtps by some to disparage the warmblood breeding organizations in this country.

[CBoylen]

I think, too, that those of you who have only seen Cunningham when he's come East or at the World Cup have not gotten a fair picture of the horse.
That may be true, but it's very hard to judge a CA record from the east coast, so some of us have to base our opinion on the shows where we have seen him. The west coast has some top horses, but not the depth, and it's pretty much a whole different ballgame. You can see that most clearly from the hack and model placings. I'm sure I haven't seen the horse jump in his best form or go his best (and they would do him a service to put some better pictures up on his site too), but I have to agree with the other posters that from what I've seen he's not naturally suited for the hunter ring.
He seems to have plenty of scope though, and plenty of step, so with his nice bloodlines he should suit lots of breeders very well.

Oh, and Reflection also showed at CC in the older a/o; so there were at least two stallions if we're counting them up :D.
Edited to add Crown Affair in the older a/o as well.

[Nipper]

I'm not sure what some of the posters mean by proven. At the stallion level, I think proven means proven in the best of company, since we don't want to be breeding mediocre stallions and mediocre mares (what most people breed). From what I have seen, he has a show record. That's what your average run of the mill 3'6" horse has. That's not the same thing as absolutely proven.

[Party Rose]

Unfortunately my time is limited this weekend, but I have a few comments to add from what I read on this thread yesterday.

1. EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion.
2. Not every stallion is the correct breeding match for a particular mare for the intended outcome.
3. One does not know what an owners goals are unless you have spoken with the owner directly.
4. Unless you've seen a horse go more than a few times, your opinion is limited.
5. Unless you've seen a horse go at more than one venue, your opinion is limited.
6. Unless you have all of the inside information of a specific situation, you should keep your opinions to yourself,
as it's then just barn gossip.
7. Very few photographers take the time to familiarize themselves with a horse in the warm-up arena, look at their photos and adjust accordingly before the horse goes in the ring.
8. Not every top horse in the country photographs well.
9. Does one know how much PhotoShopping has been done to those "perfect" hunter photos?
10. FACT: Many owners, riders and trainers prefer the not quite so perfect shots.
11. What is more important in this industry, a photograph or a show record?
12. If Cunningham is not a terrific horse, then someone please tell me how he made it to the Indoors.
13. If Cunningham is not a terrific horse, then someone please tell me why his 2007 USEF points are at the top of his THREE divisions.

I am honored to know Cunningham. He has an amazing personality! He is a puppy dog, with the BEST attitude and is the BEST to work with. How many horses can go from breeding to the show ring as he does, with keeping their testosterone in tact?

Cunningham goes around doing his job wonderfully and is quite blessed to win with the best of them. He loves his job and goes around as a gentleman should, with perhaps an very occasional minor head shake, which in many a judges eye is just showing their personality, setting that important brain key and placing them over the machinery that has been presented to them on any given day. Do we love their personalities or the capabilities of a preprogrammed machine?

The Capital Challenge photos are finally up and I see a beautiful front end in the one photo that I looked at. Someone was speaking derogatorily about his front end earlier in this thread and I think that they are speaking of THEIR own preference of what they would like to see. I will tell you that Cunningham has a beautifully strong neck and shoulders, which compliments his conformation and perhaps that is being overlooked in the overall picture by a previous poster. He has great knees with the proper leg elements that the judges look for.

Below is the link to the shot that I just looked at. I have a very slow dial-up and my time is limited to look any further at this time. I would be proud to own a horse as Cunningham.

http://oneills.ifp3.com/iphoto/main2.cfm
Then go to: Monday 2nd Year Green: Photo CCF_3497

[fish]

I have seen him here in CA & I agree with TatteredDaydreamer. "Wasted" is not a term I'd use, but perhaps better suited to the jumper ring would be more like it. Granted, I think that 3 pro divisions is a bit much & could be part of his issue. He also looked NQR to me when I saw him.

Fish, just because you've bred to him & think he walks on water, doesn't mean that everyone else should feel the same.

Spacely: This horse is #1 in the country in his primary division-- as a conformation hunter-- and in the top 7 in 2 others. How much better do you really think he could have been doing in the jumpers? Who knows, maybe we'll find that out after he's won everything possible as a hunter-- and then maybe after the jumpers, he'll do a bit of dressage. He is, after all, a very talented horse whose babies are getting very good reviews from trainers in more than one discipline. So far, he's about as performance proven as a hunter stallion can get, and that's good enough for me. People are perfectly free to feel however they want and have whatever opinion they wish about whatever horse they please. What I have been trying to point out is that my high opinion of this horse is not merely mine, but validated by the opinions that really count (i.e. the judges) in the arena for which you supposedly breed-- and hence not merely a matter of opinon, but of verifiable performance DATA.

As for Cunningham's management and his supposedly looking "NQR," it seems to me that if something were very wrong, some judge should have picked up on it-- if not in the rountine jogs for soundness while pinning, at least in one of the many model classes the horse has won in the last couple months.

[fish]

We have so few stallions in the U.S. that compete at ANY level and now we have one that is at the top of the game ABSOLUTELY proven in the show ring - whether you like him or not - he is PROVEN in sport, and here you guys are, tearing him down. It isn't a matter of walking on water, it is a matter of supporting stallions and other horses proving themselves in sport in North America. Beats all the breeders drooling over european triangle trotters who has never stepped foot in competition.

Thank you, Tri-- although I must say that when I see the few stallions daring to compete-- and win-- attacked like this, it certainly helps me understand why a lot of stallion owners might be scared to put their guys out there! Certainly much easier (and cheaper) to keep them at home where their manners and athleticism are never tested!

[Nipper]

Neither the green conformations nor the 2nd years have the depth from show to show that requires too much more than regular campaigning of a decent horse to be well ranked. They aren't like the first year greens where tons of nice horses getting their mileage for the juniors and ammies are fleshing out divisions in the double digits week after week. The green confs and 2nd years are typically small , so horseman's horsemen generally look for the shows "where champions meet" to determine what rises to the top of those divisions. To my knowledge, Cunningham has not yet proven himself when the depth has been there at places like Devon and indoors.

For those who say you can't get into indoors unless this or that....Harrisburg took all entries for the green confs and 2nd years this year (for those who are bad at math that means no point cut off) with WIHS in the 900-1000 range for 2nd years and green confs, further demonstrating the lack of depth in the division.

And no, I don't think other stallion owners photo shop their horses' legs in the photos on their websites and that Cunningham's photos are the exception. That's fraud and I've watched enough of the nice performing stallions go to know what their jumps look like. You don't need to attack the other stallions and their owners out there because opinions differ on one that is near and dear to you. It's bad sportsmanship.

[fish]

That may be true, but it's very hard to judge a CA record from the east coast, so some of us have to base our opinion on the shows where we have seen him. The west coast has some top horses, but not the depth, and it's pretty much a whole different ballgame. You can see that most clearly from the hack and model placings. I'm sure I haven't seen the horse jump in his best form or go his best (and they would do him a service to put some better pictures up on his site too), but I have to agree with the other posters that from what I've seen he's not naturally suited for the hunter ring.
He seems to have plenty of scope though, and plenty of step, so with his nice bloodlines he should suit lots of breeders very well.

Oh, and Reflection also showed at CC in the older a/o; so there were at least two stallions if we're counting them up :D.
Edited to add Crown Affair in the older a/o as well.

Thank you for the correction on the stallions at CC-- I hadn't looked at the amateur divisions, and hope to have a chance to see these other two go some day. ( I do wish there were someplace people could conveniently go on line to find the genders of horses showing!)

As for the West Coast horses, I would have to disagree with the idea that the west is a "whole different ballgame" or "lacks depth." Although the western horses were not at the top of the models or hacks at the CC, Charade won his hack at Devon, many of them were in the ribbons in both at the CC , and most importantly, Genuine, Andiamo, Scout and other California horses have been rewarded for their long trips east with important championships and reserves-- to the extent that Devon looked very like a Calif, invasion. While Genuine, Andiamo and Scout did not place particularly well in the hacks at the CC, the hack is not their strong suit in Ca. either. Hence, it seems to me that the horses winning in Ca. have a pretty good shot at winning anywhere-- if that weren't the case, I don't think John French would have come within a hair of beating Scott Stewart for leading rider at Devon this year, Genuine wouldn't have been Ch. at CC, Andiamo reserve, etc.

I'd just like to see Cunningham (who truly is like a puppy) get more comfortable with the environment-- especially indoor showing-- on my side of the country before he goes back home. If he goes on to the jumpers and proves he's even better at that than he's been in the conformation hunters-- that's only gravy as far as I'm concerned :)

[fish]

There is a substantial gray area between "sound enough to model/jog" and SOUND.

Excuse me, but I would hope that unsound horses wouldn't be WINNING those models-- not to mention one championship after another for weeks and months on end.

[Nipper]

Excuse me, but I would hope that unsound horses wouldn't be WINNING those models-- not to mention one championship after another for weeks and months on end.


There are plenty of horses trotting past the judge's stand to pick up their ribbons that aren't passing pre-purchase exams.

[spacely]

There is a substantial gray area between "sound enough to model/jog" and SOUND.

True. There is also sound with "assistance" as well.

[Party Rose]

And no, I don't think other stallion owners photo shop their horses' legs in the photos

Every photograph is PhotoShopped to one level or another unless it's cropped directly from the original image.

I give Mary credit for not making changes as ears forward.

Also, she has not had the time with her busy schedule to update her photos on the hosting site with 2007 photos. She has plans to do so as soon as time allows.

[fish]

True. There is also sound with "assistance" as well.

I don't know why some people feel the need to carry on a personal vendetta against this horse, but so it seems to be-- if it isn't one nasty, groundless innuendo (e.g. that there must be something wrong with him or he would have had lifetime approval-- which he now has)-- it's another-- that he's "NQR" and is supposedly able to show and win on a schedule you attack as "excessive" because he's got some kind of "assistance." Cunningham shows under precisely the same rules as every other horse out there and his record speaks for itself. Anyone can go to the USEF website, check his points, the numbers in his divisions-- and even go from there to places like Showtime, to see precisely who he's been beating on the way to all his championships (e.g. Westporte, Charade, Genuine, Scout, Andiamo, White Oak, Brooklyn,...). We're still a long way from having the unified, reliable database we need to be able to track everyone, but for horses in contention for year end awards, the facts are indeed available for anyone who's truly interested.

[tri]

"From what I have seen, he has a show record. That's what your average run of the mill 3'6" horse has."

"This horse is #1 in the country in his primary division-- as a conformation hunter-- and in the top 7 in 2 others."

Give me a list of all your average run of the mill horses that are #1 in the country in ANY division - give me the list of North American stallions that are #1 in the country in ANY division of any of the english sports. And then give me the list of stallions standing in North America that are #1 in one division and in the top ten in 2 other divisions. Please, according to you it should be a super long list if it is such a run of the mill thing. Give me a freakin break.

[tri]

"The topics are seldom offensive. What is offensive are the inaccuracies, the hyperbole, the misinformation, the exaggerations, etc., in general the constant attemtps by some to disparage the warmblood breeding organizations in this country."

Gee, Bent Hickory, do you think it could have something to do with the attitudes of being uncooperative and withholding information that seems to prevail with your organization in particular?? You say you are tired of the inaccuracies but it is your organization who refused to cooperate with the Federation on the 100 day testing inquiry, refused to provide INFORMATION, refused to ANSWER QUESTIONS, and the Oldna folks are on here (Ilona) apparently according to Edgar, is giving false information while touting herself as a BOARD MEMBER ..... like you, perhaps? Who are we to believe? This board member or that board member???? Inaccuracies and false information! Hah! If you are tired of it, why don't you go to your organization and demand that they be more forthcoming with information and answer some FREAKIN questions when investigated by our overseeing organization, the Federation?

Stop whining, Bent Hickory, your organization did the equivalent of taking the 5th during the investigation and now you are mad that people distrust them. Reap what you sow.

[Fairview Horse Center]

While people are making that list, can we narrow it down to eliminate stallions not available fresh cooled to prove they are not showing on Regumate, a drug with tranquilizing properties?

The accusations people are making about this lovely boy are truly horrible.

[La Gringa]

You know this thread is kind of doing what the entire breeding board was shut down for.

Can't people just stop the hate on here?

If you don't like the horse, fine, don't bash him. We aren't supposed to promote or advertise on here anyway.... and this is way beyond just discussing a stallion's abilities.

Sorry but this is what makes COTH not such a nice place to post guys.

SIT ON YOUR HANDS.... or you know what might happen..

:no:

[Oakstable]

If you don't like the stallion, don't breed to him.

He is a beautiful stallion, has an impressive pedigree and is, gasp, actually competing.

Mare owners can actually see him in the flesh at shows. Fairly rare opportunity, IMO.

I went to visit and photograph a couple stallions and the owner brought them out and stood them up. NO, they could not be turned out, and, no, he would not put them on a lunge line.

Cunningham's owner is to be congratulated for the AHHA approval.

[arnika]

by CuriosoJorge:
There is a substantial gray area between "sound enough to model/jog" and SOUND.

by Nipper:
There are plenty of horses trotting past the judge's stand to pick up their ribbons that aren't passing pre-purchase exams.

By spacely:
True. There is also sound with "assistance" as well.



I can't help but wonder if the three of you are speaking from firsthand knowledge or just being spiteful. To put this type of statement on a specific stallion's thread is pretty despicable unless you are willing to back it up. I don't know this stallion other than through the net and show results but I'm appalled at the insinuations.

Seems a pretty chicken way to say it as well; all.............*I won't come right out and say it is directed at Cunningham, maybe I'm just speaking in generalities*............. kind of thing.

Just meant to also add my congratulations on his lifetime approval for PERFORMANCE in sport as well.

[spacely]

Well, his rider John Bragg has been suspended in the past for doping. Can't help but wonder...

[arnika]

So has Don Stewart, yet I don't see you jumping all over him and stating that the horses he and his daughter ride and train are doped.

Do you have ANY objective evidence at all or are you just trashing him for fun?

[Party Rose]

I have found that the majority of time that it is best to sit on your hands, making it impossible to reach the keyboard, keeping one's thoughts to oneself.

Think about your thoughts and put yourself in the others paddock boots before you hit that submit reply button.

It's curious to me that some people are not busy enough with their own lives, that they feel the necessity to bash both humans and equines.

It's curious to me that some people will write such things against our community. Aren't we suppose to be supportive to the industry?

It's curious to me that some are posting on a beautiful Sunday afternoon, when, if they were true horsepeople, would be out attending to their barn.

It's MOST curious to me that people will volunteer brain thoughts that are nothing more than destructive and have yet their equine business website link posted at the end of their post.

GREAT advertising as to who to stay away from and who NOT to recommend.

[hackinaround]

I just wonder what the point of all this really is. Lets call a spade a spade. To those that dislike this stallion or any others and come to this board to spout the negatives...its a public board but honestly do you think that you trash talking will change anything in theses stallions lives. His owner is still going to show him/breed him...people who like him are still going to use him. Other than showing your "stink eye" personalities what have we accomplished...nothing!

If you have honest thoughts about a horse feel free to state them...but refrain from the pissing contest that ensues when someone else rebukes your statments with things they do like about said horse.

Also adding if there is anything nefarious going on with any of these horses...it will eventually come out on its own. Spewing dislike and contempte isnt going to change a damn thing. Be honest about your opinions and move on... or go pound sand if you need something to keep you busy!

By the way I am neither Pro nor Con Cunningham...just Con poor behavior in adults!!

[PineTreeFarm]

Maybe on threads like this you could all just ID yourself in your first post.
Something along the lines of "My Trainer shows a stallion that competes against <horse being discussed> in x division and is ahead of him in USEF points" or " I've bred my mares to a stallion that shows against <horse being discussed> in x division and is behind him in USEF points" or maybe "I've bred my mare to him and probably will want to get $ for the resulting foal".

That way everybody would be clear on what's going on. Sort of truth in advertising. So we'd know why you are promoting said stallion or bashing him. Not that many of the comments aren't objective but it is entertaining.

[tri]

Spacely, keep digging your hole, you are almost buried now. It won't be long. :(

[La Gringa]

Well, his rider John Bragg has been suspended in the past for doping. Can't help but wonder...


That is very low to bring those kinds of accusations into this thread.

Really, I thought better of you spacely, but this is really low, and very hateful.

Do you have any facts to back up your statement? Do you have some personal vendetta against these people?

Why not settle them privately other than bringing this kind of trash to the forum? Just a thought.

:no:

[Bent Hickory]

Gee, Bent Hickory, do you think it could have something to do with the attitudes of being uncooperative and withholding information that seems to prevail with your organization in particular?? ...

Blah, blah, blah .... yawn ... You're so predictable. But again, in typical fashion, your diatribe is irrelevant to the issue regarding parental DNA verification which you suggest doesn't really occur based on your "connections" with officials as "more that one euro registry." Remember, that is what you and I were discussing?

So are you going to be forthcoming and identify your "sources?" Or do you expect that we just trust you...?

[tri]

Bent Hickory, why don't we reveal both of our sources? Who has confirmed to you that the DNA of each parent is verified to each foal? Or should we just trust you?

And, please learn to read, my "connection" is with a person at Davis. I was told by a couple of officials at two different registries that DNA was filed but not cross checked against the parents unless someone requested it because there was a question.

Again, why don't we just list the registries that do crosscheck and the ones that don't?

[Dressage-ryder]

A friend who had her filly with GOV got a call about her foal not being sired by the stallion she bred to.. ( or thought she did) .. so, I guess GOV checks!

[sylvan farm]

From the AHS website: http://www.hanoverian.org/ahs_media/downloads/Sept22-2005Rules.pdf

§23
PARENTAGE VERIFICATION/DNA TYPING

(1) Before issuing registration papers for a foal in accordance with §16 the foal must be parent verified through DNA typing. For issuing a Certificate of Pedigree in accordance with §17 parentage verification is not required but is highly recommended, particularly for fillies as a means of permanent and unequivocal identification of the horse.

§13
KEEPING OF THE STUDBOOK
The studbook shall be maintained at the AHS office. The studbook records shall contain at least the following information for each horse entered into a section of the studbook:

- the names and addresses of the breeder and owner;
- the date of birth, sex, color and markings;
- the registration number;
- the foal brand;
- the horse’s lineage;
- decisions concerning studbook entry, and if applicable, changes based on performance;
- the date registration papers were issued (in the case of there being duplicates, their purpose and number);
- the inspection and performance score sheets;
- the registered progeny;
- show records (if available);
- the bloodtype or DNA type;
- information concerning the birth of twins.

As stated, horses receiving registration papers from the AHS have their parentage verified via DNA typing at UC Davis. The rules and by-laws of the AHS are public documents, available to everyone interested in reading them.

[Galileo1998]

Well, his rider John Bragg has been suspended in the past for doping. Can't help but wonder...

Actually you CAN help but wonder, unless you are a bitter, jealous person who seems to LOVE to hate certain stallions. Comments like that are just low, lack class and seem ignorant - especially coming from someone who has never ridden, owned or bred a good hunter. :eek:

[Hocus Focus]

It would appear that stoking the fire on this thread has become fair game, and quite frankly the posture is predictably boring. It rings a familiar note with years of the "tiny little remarks" and backstabbing one experiences in many aspects of the horse world, which perhaps individuals might wrongly feel increases self worth as a noteworthy horseperson. Maybe we are all guilty of such behavior on some small level at one time or another, as I am certain my personal "big picture" is not stellar in itself.

Bottom line is commentary with this in itself as a goal is certainly not the most clever approach and perhaps it is time to look beyond the mirror image and reshape our entire thought process on horse appreciation.

Self improvement is always a good place to begin.

Cunningham is neither the first horse nor the last that has caught our eye for his good qualities. We all have our heros. This is his moment to shine. Let the light through. He is earning it step by step. If you feel he needs to be challenged then bring forth the horse to do that job and let the judge's praise you with their acclaim. It is an open game afterall.

I salute the stallion owners who have the right kind of horse to be able to gain approval through performance. It is a noble approach and one that has to meet the critical eye of many well qualified professionals, perhaps marking the difference between "instant" and "perked", and by perked I am not referring to chemically induced. Their are plenty of breeding stars who spend their lives on stall rest, who rest on their performance records, made years prior. Let the young capable stallions enjoy their moment while they can. We all are headed for the geriatic ward soon enough.

[Bent Hickory]

[M]y "connection" is with a person at Davis.

No, your "contact" is with a person at Davis, and specifically, UC Davis's lab. Remember? Here...

I was told point blank by more than one euro registry official AND by a contact at UC Davis's lab ...

"Connection" is my word, I used it in quotes, and it fairly paraphrases your statement (especially since it was "point blank"). But I digress...

You made the statement regarding parental verification. I'm challenging you to support that statement. I doubt you will.

[tri]

Come on Bent Hickory, lets keep up! We have a list going. Are you going to participate, or are you going to continue with the AHS history of hatefulness, noncooperation and trying to keep information secret??

List, so far:

The AHS does parent verification on full registration but not for COPs
The Old Verband does parent verification - how about COPs?
ISR/Oldna -
BWP -
Selle Francias -
AHHA -
KWPN-na -
RPSI -
AWR -
AWS -
Canadian WB -

[DownYonder]

The Old Verband does parent verification - how about COPs?

I don't have the COP info at my fingertips, but I *believe* they charge a DNA fee for COPs. I'll try to verify this later.

[Bent Hickory]

Come on Bent Hickory, lets keep up!

I'm two steps ahead of your dodges and weaves. Not surprisingly, your "list" doesn't identify the two registries that you were "informed" DON'T do parental verification. Surely, you're confident enough in the "information"...?

[showjumpers66]

I am a little appalled by this discussion. It seems that nothing is good enough. Owning a stallion is a huge financial investment from the initial purchase to maintenance to training to showing to advertising all to book an average of 6 mares per year. Some stallions are lucky to be "trendy" and will book upwards of 50 mares ... sometimes 100 if it is a good year. Okay, we all get that you are not a fan. So leave it at that. Why make underhanded allegations that he has to be drugged or is unsound?

What are the expectations for North American stallions? To compete at the upper levels? To be at the top of their game? This stallion IS getting it done. What more do you expect from this stallion owner? To pull her horse from competition since he is not your type of horse? :confused::confused::confused:

[HFSH]

I would hope that any S.O. who reads that someone is broadcasting assumptions that their horse is being doped consider taking legal action. KNOWING THE TRUTH and Making ASSUMPTIONS are two entirely different things, and in the case where it may affect someone's business, you're asking for a world of legal trouble.

[La Gringa]

I would hope that any S.O. who reads that someone is broadcasting assumptions that their horse is being doped consider taking legal action. KNOWING THE TRUTH and Making ASSUMPTIONS are two entirely different things, and in the case where it may affect someone's business, you're asking for a world of legal trouble.

I was thinking the same thing. People can be held accountable for this kind of stuff.. it's called SLANDER, and is illegal.

It really makes the person who said it look bad too. I was appalled that this happened on here.

I think Cunningham is beautiful horse and in no way deserves this, afterall what did the horse do to anyone other than show and compete, and do well at his job?

If I were the trainer who was slammed here I would be upset too.

Not nice at all. :no:

[tri]

I am appalled as well. And making unfounded accusations of doping was only one of the things implied - smacks of a personal vendetta.

Bent, dodges & weaves?? Why don't you just participate in the discussion and make the list? - talk about dodging & weaving! Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute so the facts are getting out there? Oh, thats right, you are part of the group that DOESN'T want any information known.

[phoebe05]

"Actually you CAN help but wonder, unless you are a bitter, jealous person who seems to LOVE to hate certain stallions. Comments like that are just low, lack class and seem ignorant - especially coming from someone who has never ridden, owned or bred a good hunter. "


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Just like the boys who talk talk talk in High School those who talk the most experience the least ;)

[La Gringa]

Does Cunningham's owner post on here?

[phoebe05]

No she doesn't, probably a blessing. Even though all the allegations that have been stated here get said about every top horse, by the sour grapes out there it is very different to read it versus just knowing that people love to tear down anything or anyone that is at the top of any game.

[fish]

Does Cunningham's owner post on here?

No. She's been very late when it comes to communicating via computers-- and is too busy taking care of her horses to get involved in this kind of stuff anyway. Mary is a very "hands on" owner who works very hard helping out at the shows in addition to training her horses and foaling out mares at home.

[La Gringa]

No. She's been very late when it comes to communicating via computers-- and is too busy taking care of her horses to get involved in this kind of stuff anyway. Mary is a very "hands on" owner who works very hard helping out at the shows in addition to training her horses and foaling out mares at home.

If you know her, you should make her aware that people are making unfair accusations, even it if it's Chicken sh&t stuff. That kind of stuff is really meant to hurt, and if the wrong person read it, it could be harmful to the stallion's rep.

Just my 2 cents.

I think Cunningham is lovely, and it's a shame to read people doing this to him.

How do you think he would cross on a mare like mine?
Here's her pedigree... I bred her to Albarez last year and got a gorgeous filly. http://www.vulomedia.com/images/55529Zuni046.jpg I like the Holsteiner lines for my mare.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/windsong11

[Bent Hickory]

Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute so the facts are getting out there? Oh, thats right, you are part of the group that DOESN'T want any information known.

I already told you that the AHS did the verifications. I spoke of what I know first hand. I've done my part.

Still waiting for you to contribute yours...

[Party Rose]

Caution ... COTH posters have incrediable memories!

[Party Rose]

Mary has the Indoors to deal with right now. I hope that no one lets her know where this thread has gone before she flies home. Let her stay focused on showing before she has to deal with this. And believe me, SHE WILL!!!!!!!

[La Gringa]

It's a shame people do this kind of thing to nice people/horses.

Shame shame shame.

I wish we had a "shame section" on this board for posters that do this kind of thing. Granted we all sometimes spout off, but this is really beyond the normal hate posts on here.

[fish]

If you know her, you should make her aware that people are making unfair accusations, even it if it's Chicken sh&t stuff. That kind of stuff is really meant to hurt, and if the wrong person read it, it could be harmful to the stallion's rep.

Just my 2 cents.

I think Cunningham is lovely, and it's a shame to read people doing this to him.

How do you think he would cross on a mare like mine?
Here's her pedigree... I bred her to Albarez last year and got a gorgeous filly. http://www.vulomedia.com/images/55529Zuni046.jpg I like the Holsteiner lines for my mare.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/windsong11

Don't worry-- I talk to Mary frequently, and she is aware of everything. Basically, she doesn't worry because the stallion does such a great job of representing himself, while people who get nasty only end up hurting themselves. Besides, she originally bought Cunningham pretty much for her own use-- which is why she has never taken out ads for him, etc.-- with more outside mares than she ever anticipated coming from people like me, who sought out those bloodlines, personal friends, and mare owners who've seen her horse and fallen in love at the shows. Even now, she keeps his book pretty small so it remains feasible to collect him fresh during the show season without adversely affecting his career or her service to mare owners-- so if you are interested in breeding to Cunningham, it might be a good idea to contact Mary quickly. If I'm not mistaken, his book for 2008 is already more than half full.

Based on your mare's pedigree and the photo of her nice filly, I'd say Cunningham is likely to be a very nice match for your mare. I'd love to see a photo of the mare, too, though. Based on this photo of the filly, my first guess would be that Cunningham would be most likely to improve the neck shape and set-- he puts lovely fronts on his babies, with very elegant throats. Re: the pedigree, he looks like an outcross for her except for the Ramiro Z, which is hardly a bad thing to double up :)-- especially if you're looking for jump.

Mary is, however, much more of a WB pedigree expert than I, and I'm sure she'd love to talk to you about her horse, yours, and their families.

[Fairview Horse Center]

It is really a shame for people to be attacking this lovely boy. Cunningham is showing AND breeding - obviously not on Regumate. People dissing him have in the past supported stallions that they have stated ARE on Regumate. Yes, I know it is a legal drug, but it does have tranquilizing properties. Makes you wonder just what those "other guys" would do without their hormones.

For the record, I don't know Cunningham's owner, or anyone that has ever bred to him, or owned one of his youngsters.

[La Gringa]

Don't worry-- I talk to Mary frequently, and she is aware of everything. Basically, she doesn't worry because the stallion does such a great job of representing himself, while people who get nasty only end up hurting themselves. Besides, she originally bought Cunningham pretty much for her own use-- which is why she has never taken out ads for him, etc.-- with more outside mares than she ever anticipated coming from people like me, who sought out those bloodlines, personal friends, and mare owners who've seen her horse and fallen in love at the shows. Even now, she keeps his book pretty small so it remains feasible to collect him fresh during the show season without adversely affecting his career or her service to mare owners-- so if you are interested in breeding to Cunningham, it might be a good idea to contact Mary quickly. If I'm not mistaken, his book for 2008 is already more than half full.

Based on your mare's pedigree and the photo of her nice filly, I'd say Cunningham is likely to be a very nice match for your mare. I'd love to see a photo of the mare, too, though. Based on the photo of the filly, my first guess would be that Cunningham would be most likely to improve the neck shape and set-- he puts lovely fronts on his babies. Re: the pedigree, he looks like an outcross for her except for the Ramiro Z, which is hardly a bad thing to double up :)-- especially if you're looking for jump.

Mary is, however, much more of a WB pedigree expert than I, and I'm sure she'd love to talk to you about her horse, yours, and their families.

Here's a pic of the mare.

Zuni actually has a pretty good neck, it's a bit on the long side though. She got a nice head from Albarez ( her daddy)

http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/7241/2842629530063816794S500x500Q85.jpg

Here's another pic of the baby taken a bit earlier.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/arizonablonde/Zuni007-1.jpg

[VirginiaBred]

I am appalled at some of the remarks on this thread. What has gotten into people??? Further more, I am blown away that it has been allowed to go on and on.........

Cunningham is a darling stallion that jumps extremely well, and has built a good reputation in the show ring.

Sounds like a bunch of jealous posters to me.

(La Gringa, I like your mare!)

[fish]

I like this picture of the foal better than the other-- although it is hard to get a very good idea of the head and neck from this angle.

Regarding the mare-- like like the neck very much-- and the rest of her, too. My own feeling-- from this photo at least-- is that Cunningham would shorten and strengthen the topline, and give a longer leg relative to torso. He also throws a very cute head, wide across the forehead with a very refined muzzle and lovely eyes. The mare I've been breeding to him is very big bodied, with not quite enough bone to be ideally proportionate to her mass, a somewhat longish back with less than ideal loin connection, a neck slightly too low and thick, and a good head which was still not as refined as I liked. I looked to Cunningham for that strong topline, long legs, higher, more elegant neck set, overall refinement, and plenty of bone without adding bulk-- and he gave me everything I wanted. In addition, my colt has the most incredibly strong, "up" back I've ever sat on-- I can't say I was breeding for that because I never knew such a marvelous thing existed!

You really should be talking to Mary and sending her the pictures, though. All I am is a happy customer with a big mouth!

[La Gringa]

Here's one more that shows her throat better.

So much of a picture is the position of the horse. In some photos she is standing like Giraffe, and others she looks more like a strip horse. Sometimes she stands funny and I am like OMG, is that my filly? :lol:

I think she will be uphill. Her mom is very uphill, and the dad is very well built too. Right now she's so butt high.. it's hard to tell. LOL.

http://www.vulomedia.com/images/4434Zuni006.jpg

[formerbreeder]

Well, his rider John Bragg has been suspended in the past for doping. Can't help but wonder...

Look who's calling the kettle black!

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Suspension/Default.aspx

FARNHAM, STACEY SUNNYVALE, CA 06/11/1999

Stacey, were you suspended for doping your horse? :eek:

[fish]

Here's one more that shows her throat better.

So much of a picture is the position of the horse. In some photos she is standing like Giraffe, and others she looks more like a strip horse. Sometimes she stands funny and I am like OMG, is that my filly? :lol:

I think she will be uphill. Her mom is very uphill, and the dad is very well built too. Right now she's so butt high.. it's hard to tell. LOL.

http://www.vulomedia.com/images/4434Zuni006.jpg

I definitely like this picture of your filly the best :) She's quite lovely-- I definitely know what you mean about pics, though. Combine what camera angles can do with the front/rear growth spurts a baby can pull and it gets pretty scary sometimes!

If you want to exchange photos and get an idea of what Cunningham influence has looked like here, go ahead and email me.

[Wings of Hope]

I think Stacey has lost it, and is nuts.

[La Gringa]

Look who's calling the kettle black!

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Suspension/Default.aspx

FARNHAM, STACEY SUNNYVALE, CA 06/11/1999

Stacey, were you suspended for doping your horse? :eek:

:eek: Wow, what other dirty little secrets lurk on the internet?? Hmm.

Very interesting. Wonder what the RSPI inspection folks might think of that little fact. Hmmm.

No further comment needed. :eek:

[Sebastian]

La Gringa, You're mare and filly are both lovely!!

In addition to what fish has told you about Cunningham... My advice is if you like him, and want a horse that looks and moves like him...breed to him. The one thing I've noticed is that ALL his offspring are "stamped." You DEFINITELY see "daddy" in them.

My mare's dam was very similar in build to yours (although she's the Landgraf line). Bridgette a nice blend of the two, but really shows a LOT of her father's characteristics. She's been a dream to train as well.

Someone spoke earlier on this thread about "proven" stallions. IMHO, there are two kinds of "proven" -- there's the show record, and there's the offspring. There are some with a great show record, that don't necessarily pass it on to their get, and there are some that don't have a show record, but have produced FABULOUS get. One of the MAJOR reasons that I'm such a fan of this stallion is that he's got BOTH those things going on for him.

Good luck on your next breeding -- whom ever you chose. :)

As for the rest of you:

Tri & Bent Hickory -- you need to start your own thread. This one is TITLED "Cunningham," NOT the "ethical practices of Registries..."

Spacely, et.al. -- WTF???? Your unfounded insinuations only embarrass YOU!

Seb

[VirginiaBred]

Someone spoke earlier on this thread about "proven" stallions. IMHO, there are two kinds of "proven" -- there's the show record, and there's the offspring. There are some with a great show record, that don't necessarily pass it on to their get, and there are some that don't have a show record, but have produced FABULOUS get.


So true, so true, so true. There are two kinds of proven.

[spacely]

Nice try. Some of you have nothing better to do with your days. Sorry guys. I lived in So Cal in 1999 & last showed in 2001. I couldn't possibly have done that being suspended now could I?

Wonder what the RSPI inspection folks might think of that little fact.

LaG, are you really that stupid? They are not at all affiliated.

[tri]

You are right Sebastian. It got started because some posters started asking how do we know Cunningham really has those bloodlines behind him since he wasn't (at that time) approved with any of the american versions of the euro registries, thus the tangent of DNA testing....then, of course, Bent Hick, rode out on her broom and apparently doesn't want a list of registries that file DNA and those that cross check the DNA.

"already told you that the AHS did the verifications."

I don't care what you "told" just as you don't care what I was "told". I don't base my opinions on being "told". I've asked for the documentation so we can say it is fact. For the AHS, another more positive & cooperative poster provided the cut & paste from the AHS rules. Thank you. Is that clear enough for you Bent Hick?

[Bent Hickory]

I don't care what you "told" just as you don't care what I was "told". I don't base my opinions on being "told". I've asked for the documentation so we can say it is fact. Is that clear enough for you Bent Hick?

Not quite. Can we expect you to "cooperate" and "share" your "information"? A simple yes or no will suffice.

[La Gringa]

What I did find interesting is that John Bragg's name ISN'T on that list at all. Interesting indeed.

:eek:

[PineTreeFarm]

What I did find interesting is that John Bragg's name ISN'T on that list at all. Interesting indeed.

:eek:

The list is who is suspended NOW, not those who have had a suspension in the past.

[La Gringa]

Well, no supporting facts to back up the accusation have been supplied either..

It's still low, and not right to do on this forum, but that's me.

[DownYonder]

You are right Sebastian. It got started because some posters started asking how do we know Cunningham really has those bloodlines behind him since he wasn't (at that time) approved with any of the american versions of the euro registries, thus the tangent of DNA testing.

If you are referring to my post, that isn't even close to what I said. Here is my exact quote (post #75, timestamped 6:01 AM 8/13/07):

"How do we KNOW he is a Cassini son? Oh, yeah - he has REGISTRATION PAPERS from a reputable registry that state he is a Cassini son. That registry's reputation and ability to continue to do business is resting on the authenticity of those papers, so we can probably rest assured that the proper steps were taken to verify that he is in fact a Cassini son before the papers were issued."

That post was a response to those who don't see the merit of registration papers. There was nothing in the post that insinuated that Cunningham isn't really who his REGISTRATION PAPERS say he is.

Also, the fact that Cunningham wasn't (at the time) approved by any American branch of a European registry has nothing to do with his proof of identity. His proof of identity is in the form of registration papers, issued to him AS A FOAL by one of Germany's largest and most respected Verbands. He is who he is, regardless of whether he is approved for breeding or not.

[La Gringa]

Here is the replay of the WCHR, with Cunningham. I thought he was gorgeous. I think the reason more people think he should do the jumpers is because he appears more "up" because of his build/cresty neck. He's a stallion, and I think he's drop dead gorgeous. He looks extremely comfortable to ride as well.

http://www.equestriansport.tv/wchr_pro_finals2007.php

[Galileo1998]

Look who's calling the kettle black!

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Suspension/Default.aspx

FARNHAM, STACEY SUNNYVALE, CA 06/11/1999

Stacey, were you suspended for doping your horse? :eek:

Wow - doesn't a suspension mean you're not allowed on show grounds?

What a coincidence Stacey, you claim you didn't live there then...but you certainly do now...there must be two of you ;)

[spacely]

It does. Enough people know me & have seen me at shows that if I truly were suspended, it would have been reported. In fact, I was just at an A show about 10 days ago.

[Nipper]

I think it is just an odd coincidence of two people with the same names.

[La Gringa]

I think it is just an odd coincidence of two people with the same names.

Odd that there are two people with the same names, on USEF. Odd. :cool:

Things are just odd sometimes. :cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

[tri]

Actually, DownYonder, this is what you posted: "You cannot assume that a horse is by SuperStud just because his owner keeps meticulous records. There has to be a piece of paper from a reliable and reputable AGENCY that does proof of parentage via DNA analysis to authenticate the pedigree."

And, another poster responded: "ummm..... both Cassini I and Contender are alive, so all you need to do is a DNA, plus their DNA is on file, forever....
...so if a few hairs are pulled from Cunningham's mane it's pretty easy to find out who he is, or is not."

But on this, DownYonder, we are in complete agreement: "He is who he is, regardless of whether he is approved for breeding or not."

And, I for one, could care less if he was approved here or not. I think it is great that we have such a successful stallion currently competing!

[DownYonder]

Actually, DownYonder, this is what you posted: "You cannot assume that a horse is by SuperStud just because his owner keeps meticulous records. There has to be a piece of paper from a reliable and reputable AGENCY that does proof of parentage via DNA analysis to authenticate the pedigree."

And, another poster responded: "ummm..... both Cassini I and Contender are alive, so all you need to do is a DNA, plus their DNA is on file, forever....
...so if a few hairs are pulled from Cunningham's mane it's pretty easy to find out who he is, or is not."

But on this, DownYonder, we are in complete agreement: "He is who he is, regardless of whether he is approved for breeding or not."

And, I for one, could care less if he was approved here or not. I think it is great that we have such a successful stallion currently competing!


Yes, but I was not referring to Cunningham in that post but rather OTHER STALLIONS that do not have bloodline verification in the form of registration papers from a reputable registry. Other posters may have been questioning Cunningham's heritage, but I certainly wasn't.

[AHorseSomeDay]

I watched Cunningham on the Equestrian TV Sport website when he showed at the Capital Challenge. What a gorgeous horse. :yes: I think he is very handsome and he jumps really well. :)

[happy mouth]

La Gringa, thank you so much for that link. I wasn't able to see that class but I have now put it on my favorite places to watch as often as I like.

Stacey, this is all very odd, I thought your family had lived in Sunnyvale for a long time. I would imagine that as you were very young you used their address. Something we all did.

[Hocus Focus]

Thanks for posting the link to the Capital Challenge. I was not aware of how this class was set up. It was very interesting and a nice test of talent.

Hey guys... let up on the Spacely torture. Enough already. I think we all have a clear enough picture.

[formerbreeder]

It does. Enough people know me & have seen me at shows ....

Really? What exactly have you accomplished that you think people actually care? You don't have much of an ego do you? :rolleyes: However, I bet when someone sees you next time, they get you tossed out now! :lol: Well done.

To the OP ... I'm so sorry this has gotten so far off topic. I just hate it when someone runs off their mouth but doesn't have a clue what they're talking about, so please accept my apologies.

[Erin]

Will you people drop the personal crap, for heaven's sake? And be careful what you say under an alter. I have no problem outing people who use alters for snarking.

[clearound]

Look who's calling the kettle black!

http://www.usef.org/_IFrames/Suspension/Default.aspx

FARNHAM, STACEY SUNNYVALE, CA 06/11/1999

Stacey, were you suspended for doping your horse? :eek:

Formerbreeder - Better be careful there with your implications or else you might be a former something else as well as breeder.

[spacely]

Formerbreeder, I have a pretty good idea who you are, so if you'd like me to drag up your demons, keep going. I am not chicken enough to post under an alter either.

HM, I was old enough in 1999 to have my very own address.

[Kenike]

wow....this is a thread :eek:

I will honestly say that I am not in the "wow" group over this guy. He's nice, I like watching him, and I certainly wouldn't turn him down, but he doesn't just bowl me over and make me say "I need to find a mare to breed to this guy."
That's just me.

What I will say that I like about him is that he definitely does give me a much better feeling and a much bigger want to watch than another big name stud out there. For me, that's huge.

[fish]

Here is the replay of the WCHR, with Cunningham. I thought he was gorgeous. I think the reason more people think he should do the jumpers is because he appears more "up" because of his build/cresty neck. He's a stallion, and I think he's drop dead gorgeous. He looks extremely comfortable to ride as well.

http://www.equestriansport.tv/wchr_pro_finals2007.php

Thanks for the link-- can't see it on my blasted dial-up-- tried for hours last night:( I heard Liza Towell/Boyd had a fantastic ride and loved him. Is her ride on the link? (If so, I just might have to go to someone else's house to see it.)

Although the studly look may have a little to do with why people think Cunningham should do the jumpers, I think it has more to do with the facts that (1) he easily could-- his jump only gets better as the fences get bigger--at 3'6" and under, the biggest challenge is to keep him from cantering around like an old school horse over crossrails; and (2) when he's tense (because he hasn't yet settled in to a new environment, for example) he does go more like a jumper than a hunter. When he's at all on the muscle, his stride and jump can both get so big that even when the distances are set extraordinarily long (as they were at Devon) his biggest problems will be eating the lines and overjumping the fences. When he's like that, there is no way his rider can loop the reins and control the stride and steer with his weight and eye the way he does when Cunningham is relaxed and collecting his points as a top hunter. I think it's worth noting, though, that Cunningham always goes in a plain happy mouth snaffle and no martingale, being an extremely sensitive and responsive horse.

I'm really glad that he got settled enough by the time the professionals' class came up for John to feel comfortable about letting others ride him and for the stallion to start showing eastern audiences the form that accounts for his record.

Does anyone have the scores for the rides in the professional class? I heard that Liza's on Cunningham were right up there (low 90's??).

P.S. As I've said elsewhere on this thread, that WOW factor is highly subjective-- and a very good thing for the gene pool. It wouldn't be good for anyone if we were all flocking to the same stallion-- not to mention the fact that different mares have different needs. I think Reg and I just wanted to draw people's attention to a very good one who seemed to be having an unjustifiably hard time getting on the "hot stallions" lists on this board.

[STF]

The only thing I have got our of this thread is a sad feeling for Cunninghams owner and rider! :(

This horse is doing much more than most horses in North America and its "just not enough to keep the buzzards at bay."

[tri]

Downyonder, I never said you did - I was showing the way the thread went with your post on DNA and the other poster replying to your post talking about pulling Cunningham's hairs to prove it. It is pretty self explanatory.

"This horse is doing much more than most horses in North America "

Exactly! Who is the other poster that claimed he was an average run of the mill show horse?

[sporthorsefilly]

Yes, STF, you have to feel for the owner and this nice horse.

It is sad how many people will rush to add their negativity to a thread. If you don't like the horse you are entitled to your opinion...but some people do, judges etc. He is after all one of the top horses in the sport!

Cunningham is a very nice horse, who goes without a martingale, and obviously could jump the moon. Take a good look at his round (a 93), with Liza Boyd, it is on the link posted by La Gringa.

Cunningham is an intelligent, well mannered stallion...he isn't a gelding, he isn't a mare. He could live on my farm any day.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

This horse is doing much more than most horses in North America and its "just not enough to keep the buzzards at bay."

So people who dislike him are 'buzzards'?????

[STF]

No - not buzzards, but there is one thing to say, "I dont care for him" and there its another thing to bash him.
Its not what is said, its how its said! :(

[phoebe05]

RPS-I don't believe that STF said that at all but based on this thread there have been accussations made against this horse that stating they came from buzzards is a very polite way of terming it.

Fish- yes the round with Liza is on the link she rode him beautifully!!!

[STF]

For one, standing a stallion to the public is not for the weak of heart or those who get their feelings hurt easy. 2nd, showing is not for the weak of heart or those who cant leave the show drama behind them.
Doing both at the same time and knowing your being judged on so many different levels is daunting.
One thing I personally feel is..... unless you have showed to that level, at that rating, etc - have had that quality of a horse or close to it, etc - put the time, effort or money into it and have literally "been there/done that"..... then you have very little right to judge anyone or anything.
What I have found in the years is that the people who make the biggest "stink" are usually those who are limtied riders and limited activity into the ACTUAL sport. I just dont understand why, someone at that level, think they have the right to bash a horse or a combo trying hard to do their job.
Ok, my rant is over....

If Cunninghams owner or rider/trainers are reading this - Congrats on a nice horse, super training and nice show rounds.

[justdandy]

I think it is just an odd coincidence of two people with the same names.

Hmmmm.....Hucklebug....ooppps, I mean Nipper.....wow first you accuse the owner of Cunningham of "forging" his photos on his website and now you're accusing spacely of lying. Wow! It must have been killing you to be so nice for the last couple of months.:rolleyes:

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

No - not buzzards, but there is one thing to say, "I dont care for him" and there its another thing to bash him.
Its not what is said, its how its said! :(

Got ya. I have no idea why people are arguing so much over this stallion. He's not personally at the top of my list for hunter stallions but geez - I don't get angry looking at him the way some people who have posted are coming off anyway. :( I will say, even though I have not read this entire thread that a few Cunnigham supporters seem to get very offended that not everyone is in love with him - maybe that is why there have been so many harsh responses or vice versa??? This whole thing is just silly, imo.

Congrats to the stallion on his approval.

[tri]

"So people who dislike him are 'buzzards'?????"

Geez, have you even read the thread? It isn't about who likes him or dislikes him. It is regarding posters making up stories about him and implying that he has been drugged or that there is some sinister reason he wasn't approved with an american euro registry.

I am all for a discussion on any stallion, foal or mare regarding way of going, jumping ability, conformation, quality of offspring or whatnot. That is NOT what spacely and some others have done here.

[Sugarbrook]

I want to see the video clip of Cunningham showing over fences. I started it up at the beginning. How far along does it go until Cunningham shows? Just didnt have time to sit thru the entire class. Help, please.

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

RPS-I don't believe that STF said that at all but based on this thread there have been accussations made against this horse that stating they came from buzzards is a very polite way of terming it.

Fish- yes the round with Liza is on the link she rode him beautifully!!!

Yes, after reading her response, I did take that out of context. Sorry STF.

[Fred]

I would like to add my congratulations to Cunningham's owner for his AHHA approval, and for all his successes.

It's hard work to have a stallion show and breed at the same time, and it is even tougher in the Hunters where manners count.

Good luck and all the best to you and him.

disclaimer: I don't own him, ride him, have a mare in foal to him, or a youngster by him. Nor do I plan to.

But I hate to see a good horse bashed,and some of the insinuations and innuendos on this thread have been way out of line, IMO.

[Party Rose]

Quoting the quote of the original poster:accuse the owner of Cunningham of "forging" his photos on his website

OK, now you've insulted me. Cunninghams photos are not forged. How do I know this as fact? Because they're my photos! Six photos on the web site are mine, four jumping, one model and the first portrait that was turned into a watercolor for Mary. It's unfortunate that the site is not of better quality, but that's not what's important. As I said, 2007 photos will be uploaded when Mary has the time. We had this discussion days before she went East.

Do you think that the Chronicle would be publishing my photos (2006 & 2007) of Cunningham with their results if they were "forged"? Could I live with myself? Would I have any credability with COTH? Would COTH ever use my services again if I were forging? I think not!

So as I said earlier, don't make assumptions and speak only where you have 100% accurate information. How would you feel if the table was turned?

[justdandy]

....

And no, I don't think other stallion owners photo shop their horses' legs in the photos on their websites and that Cunningham's photos are the exception. That's fraud and I've watched enough of the nice performing stallions go to know what their jumps look like. You don't need to attack the other stallions and their owners out there because opinions differ on one that is near and dear to you. It's bad sportsmanship.


Party Rose - I hope you don't think I was accusing the owner. Above is the quote I was referring to. If I'm reading it the wrong way then I apologize. But I doubt that I'm reading it the wrong way (emphasis added on the portion I'm referring to).

[phoebe05]

What I have found in the years is that the people who make the biggest "stink" are usually those who are limtied riders and limited activity into the ACTUAL sport. I just dont understand why, someone at that level, think they have the right to bash a horse or a combo trying hard to do their job.

AMEN :yes:

It is no different than all of the arm chair coaches at little league or the beer gutted ex high school football bench warmer who yells at the coach who just won the Super Bowl for making bad decisions and not listening to his belching dumb hairy a$$.

[Party Rose]

NOT AT ALL justdandy.....No worries!

I am just sick as to where this thread has gone, most specifically the accusations.

I was in line at the PO this morning (waiting to mail a 2007 photo to Mary) and I had just picked my mail up from my PO Box. I was looking through the Oct/Nov issue of Equestrian News while I was waiting my turn. On page 5 is the article "Equestrians Eat their Young. " I have emailed the magazine asking if I can post it on the BB.

It begins by speaking of how we shun each other, how destructive our words are to the industry, bickering and how we eat our own young. It then goes on to compare equestrians to mountain bike riders and how they are the opposite of us, that they are nourishing and encouraging to their industry.

I know that this is off subject, but I had to reply to justdandy and share the words of others that are trying to save what we have left of our community. The timing was impeckable!

[La Gringa]

I want to see the video clip of Cunningham showing over fences. I started it up at the beginning. How far along does it go until Cunningham shows? Just didnt have time to sit thru the entire class. Help, please.

He's the second one on the clip.

[STF]

It begins by speaking of how we shun each other, how destructive our words are to the industry, bickering and how we eat our own young. It then goes on to compare equestrians to mountain bike riders and how they are the opposite of us, that they are nourishing and encouraging to their industry.


You should hear my husbands theory on all of this. He HATES the nasty backstabbing, two face enviroment of the industry. I honestly think this industry is the worst of them all. :(

[CBoylen]

Party Rose - I hope you don't think I was accusing the owner. Above is the quote I was referring to. If I'm reading it the wrong way then I apologize. But I doubt that I'm reading it the wrong way (emphasis added on the portion I'm referring to).
You actually are reading that the wrong way.
Party Rose said that other stallions photos are forged, but not Cunningham's photos, which are untouched and therefore an exception. Nipper replied that she didn't think any hunter stallions advertised with photoshop photos. No one accused Cunningham's owners of altered photos.

The scores for the pro finals are here:
http://www.showjumping.tv/scoring/scoresheet.php?show_id=33&class_number=6

Just to be clear, scoring in that class differs from a normal hunter class in that it is based only on presentation of the horse, style of the rider, and execution of the course.

[fish]

You should hear my husbands theory on all of this. He HATES the nasty backstabbing, two face enviroment of the industry. I honestly think this industry is the worst of them all. :(

I can understand where you're coming from when you say that, but I certainly don't think that's true of the entirety of this industry anymore than it is of any others. I am thinking, for example, of the way Gail Knieriem's friends gathered to support her through her long battle with cancer-- and even beyond, to establish a foundation to help others in her name, not to mention Gail herself, who was always so ready to help and support her fellow horse show enthusiasts. I've been involved in the horse business for a long time, and am glad to say that I've found a multitude of wonderful, supportive people within it. I don't know why some threads on these forums get so nasty, but I both think and hope it's a mistake to take them as a reflection of the industry as a whole.

[Party Rose]

You're actually reading this the wrong way.
Party Rose said that other stallions photos are forged, but not Cunningham's photos, which are untouched and therefore an exception.

WRONG:

What I said is:
1. From post #121: "9. Does one know how much PhotoShopping has been done to those "perfect" hunter photos?"
2. From post #130: "Every photograph is PhotoShopped to one level or another unless it's cropped directly from the original image."
3. "I give Mary credit for not making changes as ears forward."

[fish]

You actually are reading that the wrong way.
Party Rose said that other stallions photos are forged, but not Cunningham's photos, which are untouched and therefore an exception. Nipper replied that she didn't think any hunter stallions advertised with photoshop photos. No one accused Cunningham's owners of altered photos.

The scores for the pro finals are here:
http://www.showjumping.tv/scoring/scoresheet.php?show_id=33&class_number=6

Just to be clear, scoring in that class differs from a normal hunter class in that it is based only on presentation of the horse, style of the rider, and execution of the course.

If I remember the post correctly, I don't think this is quite right either--- I believe Rose said that any photo that is not directly cropped for use is "photoshopped" to some extent-- by which I understand her to mean that anytime we use a program to adjust brightness, contrast, color, etc., etc., (which I certainly do a plenty) we are "photoshopping" our pictures. She then went on to say that at least Mary doesn't alter her horses' ears, etc., which some-- but certainly not all-- horse owners do. I did not think she was saying that Mary's photos were any kind of real "exception."

Thanks for the scores. I guess I'll have to wait until I can see the video (Tomorrow night-- hurray!!) to find out which scores were gotten on which horses. Looks as though Liza had the class until her last horse put her out of the running-- but that's just the way things go sometimes:(

[Party Rose]

Thank you for catching that fish! You are correct!

I personally will NEVER make any conformation changes and I'll only make changes that are OUT OF THE ORDINARY of a speciffic horse. If a foot is dangling and the horse normally dangles, it does not get changed. If a horse has hives, I will heal the hives. I have refused numerous requests.

I will also NOT change a venue or background, as the Capital Challenge horse show photographer advertises on his website and this is also practiced by many other photographers as well.

Now off for a needed rest. This thread has done a number on my Lupus!

[Fairview Horse Center]

I don't have a problem with editing a photo as long as the horse is not changed. Personally, I don't have Photo Shop, but with the little program I do have I can remove telephone piles from coming out of their backs, get rid of manure piles, on occasion, I have gotten really creative and repaired a broken fence board, but you can easily see what I have done, because I am just not very good at it. ;) I never edit the horse itself, and I try to make sure any photo is lined up so that fence posts, trees, etc are vertical.

As far as the horse world, I have had wonderful horse people help me out in the past - even those I have had online disagreements with. If I have a problem I would HOPE I am near a horse person's (farm/car/etc), as I believe most would fall over backwards to try to help out - as I would them - ESPECIALLY Sporthorse breeders.

[La Gringa]

I have used it for red eye and removing poop too. Never for conformation flaws or anything like that.

I have used it to lighten a pic that is too dark as well.

Oh... and to make the Magikal Gypsy Tommer too!! Wooo Hooooo.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/arizonablonde/GT-rearing.jpg

I haven't found the right one for the Suri Mini-Van yet though. Still working on that one.

Here's the TomA$$ one too, that was funny.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/arizonablonde/JackTom.jpg

I think though that Thomas prefers the arrogant look of the Vanner.


http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/arizonablonde/GT2.jpg

Cunningham watch out, you have some competition here man!! :lol::lol::lol:

[Fairview Horse Center]

Cunningham watch out, you have some competition here man!! :lol::lol::lol:

Yes, but can he JUMP? :D

[tri]

While there may be some very nice people, there also seems to be a high percentage of very horrible people - much more than in other industries.

[La Gringa]

Yes, but can he JUMP? :D

Oh yes he can.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/arizonablonde/GypsyTommerParelli.jpg

With Parelli stick in hand no less.

After a trip to a far away land, the Princess Child returned. A Majikal World awaits her, no pixie dust can stop her!

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/arizonablonde/surimini-1.jpg :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Fairview Horse Center]

Those are TOO funny!

[La Gringa]

Here she is folicking in the field. Isn't she just a little darling, with her baby fuzz.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/arizonablonde/minivan2.jpg

[STF]

La Gringa, I think that picture is altered and you have forged the conformation of the front end, feet and smile. My gawd, what were you thinking!! Do you think your gona get any breedings that way. WTF is wrong with you!!
:lol:

[La Gringa]

La Gringa, I think that picture is altered and you have forged the conformation of the front end, feet and smile. My gawd, what were you thinking!! Do you think your gona get any breedings that way. WTF is wrong with you!!
:lol:

Oh but she's PERFECT. THE Perfect child from PERFECT parents.

How could you SAY such a thing??? :winkgrin:

[tri]

I think you should sue!

[happy mouth]

La Gringa, those are marvelous. You are very good. Hysterical!!! :lol::lol::lol:

[justdandy]

OMFTiH!!!!! LaGringa - that picture of Suri is too freakin' funny!!!!!! THANK YOU for the laugh (and choking from laughing so hard) this morning!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:: lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Fenway]

I almost peed my pants I was laughing so hard. :lol:

[Sebastian]

La Gringa -- those are a RIOT!!! :lol: The "Toma$$" is DEFINITELY my fav!!
Seb

[La Gringa]

We needed a change of heart here. Good Ole Thomas H Cruise (Christ) to give us that change...

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/arizonablonde/Parelli_Tommer.gif

On occasion he looses his cool too, but then he finds some inner strength and the Christ in him comes through. :winkgrin:

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s158/arizonablonde/ThomasChristcopy.jpg

[RheinlandPfalzSaar]

nevermind...

[Hocus Focus]

With my business name being Centaur, you are giving me all sorts of ideas....:lol::lol::lol:

[La Gringa]

With my business name being Centaur, you are giving me all sorts of ideas....:lol::lol::lol:

haha I could do one!

[Hocus Focus]

Well here ya go gals... the ole stud... more of the redneck quarter horse variety.... ha ha

Sorry this has little to nothing to do with Cunningham. It is simply another Centaur on the loose... ha ha

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee73/Hocus_Focus/Marty.jpg

[STF]

What is Cunninghams website? I have googled, but I cant find it. My H/J trainer was here today and loved him after watching the video of the CC. I wanted to show her still photos of him. Any out there?

[STF]

Never mind, found it!!!

[gwatkins65]

If anyone is interested, we currently have Mary's stallion, Czechmate as well as our Stallion Cubtio x Contender standing at our farm. We have a filly and a colt from Czechmate. The colt is from comasur "Gorgette" who is from Cunnigham. If you follow those two bloodlines, Czechmate and Cunningham, he is quite incredible. You can see them on our site www.gkperformancehorses.com.

[omare]

congratulations on your new boys- they look very exciting!

[Centuree]

Never mind, found it!!!
Can you tell me where it is? Thanks

[fish]

Can you tell me where it is? Thanks

http://www.countrylanewarmbloods.com/cunningham.htm

(Note that Cunningham is not owned or stood by Country Lane, but Mary Slouka's Wildewood Farms in California. Country Lane has been kind enough to host a web page for him since breeding one of their mares to him.)