PLEASE HELP-5 mares aborted in past 30 days

[trakama]

I am desperate and do NOT know where to begin but I know if I am to solve this situation, this puzzle, I need help and maybe someone on here WILL know what I need to do.
To make a long story as short as possible....we breed Thoroughbreds and just started with our Arabs. We were successful with all 6 of our mares getting 5 of them in foal on their first cover....for those of you that don't know Thoroughbreds are live cover only. Our Arab mare was pasture bred.
All of ours mare were getting an injection of progesterone every 10 days until their blood levels were checked; ultrasounded every 4 weeks, fed the same type of feed, the same type of hay and the ONLY difference in the care of our mares was that 1 mare was not turned out with the others. I'll explain why shortly.
It was discovered recently that our neighbors septic system leeching lines came on to our property extending roughly 200 feet through the lot behind our barn that led to ALL of our pasture. Their septic system failed and was leaking 1000's of gallons of raw sewage onto our property. There was NO way to get our mares to our pastures without their being exposed to this raw sewage.
We spoke with the owner of the property, he said it wasn't his problem and refused to correct the problem. We contacted our local health department, who took their time investigating our complaint and when they finally did, they checked the neighbors property for the leakage, not ours where we told them it was.
Finally after 3 months of fighting, the neighbor replaced his system last month. We cleaned up his lines on our property spending thousands of our money because he feels no responsibility what so ever for this mess.
This raw sewage is why the 1 mare was not out, she just had a foal any exposure is potentally lethal to a foal until it develops its own immune system...even then I wouldn't risk it. The other 5 mares were exposed as we had to leave an area wide enough for them to go through to get to our fields, everything else we knew of, as soon as we knew was contaminated we fenced off.
Our vet was here just a week ago and informed that 5 of our 6 mares have aborted their foals. The mares pregancies ranged from 67 days to 99 days and all had healthy, viable foals 28 days prior. 2 maidens, 1 that we aborted twins in the same sac last year and 2 that have had several foal and never lost a one. The ONLY mare still in foal is the mare that was not exposed to any of this raw sewage.
We need to prove that this sewage is the source of their abortions knowing that is the ONLY variable in the care of ours mares is not enough. I can not get any help or direction anywhere. Our vet said to test for nitrates but I know the first thing used in any defense is that horse manure caused the high nitrates. It will be same for ecoli testing.
This worthless human being accepts no responsibility and I need to ensure this is not going to be something that continues to cause problems. The foal losses have been devasting. The financial losses are huge due to the 4 Thoroughbreds being sent out of state-transportation, board, stud fees, etc...but the long term impact is unknown. I have called everyone from our local (worthless) health department to the EPA and have been told that since these are "simply livestock" and not "edible" I shouldn't worry about it anymore because it will work itself out since the leakage is now stopped . These people think the 150,000 plus gallons of raw sewage dumped on our property is something I shouldn't worry about and "will work itself out"!!!
I need to know how to ensure our mares and their foals are no longer at risk. What can I test for? Where can I get it tested? How can I clean it up properly? Who can I call that will understand what I am talking about? How can I prove it was the raw sewage exposure that caused 5 of our 6 mares to abort?
PLEASE ANYONE?
***There isn't any cherry, black walnut or fescue these mare could have gotten into on our property. We have consulted an attorney, however, proving what the cause was and that it wasn't high nitrate levels from horse manure is a battle

[trakama]

We are in southern Ohio

[tic tac]

trakama
I have no answers for you. However, you have my deepest sympathies for your current situation. I wish you and your mares a better future.

Has the vet checked the mares to make sure there is no infection or lingering issues from the sewage?

good luck
april

[Nikki17]

I cannot help, but you may want to put this thread in the breeding section too. Best of wishes to you and your mares:cry:

[luvmytbs]

"simply livestock and not edible"?

What if you were to send them to slaughter? Just kidding, but perhaps talking to the USDA, who are in charge of inspecting the horses slaughtered in this country, could help you with some additional info.

So sorry about your loss. Hoping your neighbor got a good dose of his own sewage.

[trakama]

Our vet has done a complete check on all of them. Our biggest concern is the lack of knowledge...what do we look for? High metals? What bacteria could there be in the sewage?
I know 2 of the kids are on medication as well as their mother whom takes enough serious pain killers to treat the esatern seaboard. It has been shown in some studies that some prescription medications pass through our systems and may not be broken down as easily as previously thought.
If I knew of some large environmental group maybe they would have an idea

[LexInVA]

Talk to the Ohio EPA. Ohio has a lot of codes regarding sewage so they would be the best place to start since they oversee a lot of it. They will need to take samples, look at the actual lines, etc. There may be other environmental impacts apart from your horses so they will want to look at what is going on.

[trakama]

Bless the Ohio EPA...they ONLY deal with business/industry & municipalities. Actually, the comment regarding our mares only being livestock and the situation would work itself out came from the US EPA Regional office when I couldn't get any help from the people in Ohio

[catknsn]

Go see an attorney who specializes in environmental issues - that's who you need to talk to on this. Sounds like you have a good case. I am sorry about your foals.

[trakama]

This is a "duplicate post" but it was suggested I post in this forum also...

I am desperate and do NOT know where to begin but I know if I am to solve this situation, this puzzle, I need help and maybe someone on here WILL know what I need to do.
To make a long story as short as possible....we breed Thoroughbreds and just started with our Arabs. We were successful with all 6 of our mares getting 5 of them in foal on their first cover....for those of you that don't know Thoroughbreds are live cover only. Our Arab mare was pasture bred.
All of ours mare were getting an injection of progesterone every 10 days until their blood levels were checked; ultrasounded every 4 weeks, fed the same type of feed, the same type of hay and the ONLY difference in the care of our mares was that 1 mare was not turned out with the others. I'll explain why shortly.
It was discovered recently that our neighbors septic system leeching lines came on to our property extending roughly 200 feet through the lot behind our barn that led to ALL of our pasture. Their septic system failed and was leaking 1000's of gallons of raw sewage onto our property. There was NO way to get our mares to our pastures without their being exposed to this raw sewage.
We spoke with the owner of the property, he said it wasn't his problem and refused to correct the problem. We contacted our local health department, who took their time investigating our complaint and when they finally did, they checked the neighbors property for the leakage, not ours where we told them it was.
Finally after 3 months of fighting, the neighbor replaced his system last month. We cleaned up his lines on our property spending thousands of our money because he feels no responsibility what so ever for this mess.
This raw sewage is why the 1 mare was not out, she just had a foal any exposure is potentally lethal to a foal until it develops its own immune system...even then I wouldn't risk it. The other 5 mares were exposed as we had to leave an area wide enough for them to go through to get to our fields, everything else we knew of, as soon as we knew was contaminated we fenced off.
Our vet was here just a week ago and informed that 5 of our 6 mares have aborted their foals. The mares pregancies ranged from 67 days to 99 days and all had healthy, viable foals 28 days prior. 2 maidens, 1 that we aborted twins in the same sac last year and 2 that have had several foal and never lost a one. The ONLY mare still in foal is the mare that was not exposed to any of this raw sewage.
We need to prove that this sewage is the source of their abortions knowing that is the ONLY variable in the care of ours mares is not enough. I can not get any help or direction anywhere. Our vet said to test for nitrates but I know the first thing used in any defense is that horse manure caused the high nitrates. It will be same for ecoli testing.
This worthless human being accepts no responsibility and I need to ensure this is not going to be something that continues to cause problems. The foal losses have been devasting. The financial losses are huge due to the 4 Thoroughbreds being sent out of state-transportation, board, stud fees, etc...but the long term impact is unknown. I have called everyone from our local (worthless) health department to the EPA and have been told that since these are "simply livestock" and not "edible" I shouldn't worry about it anymore because it will work itself out since the leakage is now stopped . These people think the 150,000 plus gallons of raw sewage dumped on our property is something I shouldn't worry about and "will work itself out"!!!
I need to know how to ensure our mares and their foals are no longer at risk. What can I test for? Where can I get it tested? How can I clean it up properly? Who can I call that will understand what I am talking about? How can I prove it was the raw sewage exposure that caused 5 of our 6 mares to abort?
PLEASE ANYONE?
***There isn't any cherry, black walnut or fescue these mare could have gotten into on our property. We have consulted an attorney, however, proving what the cause was and that it wasn't high nitrate levels from horse manure is a battle

[trakama]

Thank you...the attorney we saw is working the best he can but has been stonewalled by the high nitrate argument. Finding an environmental attorney would be a great help. We are in a small rural area in southern Ohio, does anyone have idea where I might find one?

[ahf]

You've had an abortion storm. Have you contacted your state vet? Ours would take that very seriously.

I would also be contacting Gluck, and asking what titers I should be pulling. It may not be the sewage. It may be lepto, it may be EVA, it may be MRLS, it be something different.

Don't get locked into a diagnosis before you have all the facts. A closed mind is the worst thing you can do for your herd.

I can only imagine how devestating this is for you, both financially and emotionally. My thoughts are with you.

[findeight]

Are you near Portsmouth or what other city are you near? Ohio ain't Texas but it's not Rhode Island either. Give us some specifics.

[J Swan]

Have your vet document everything - ask if he believes the exposure could have lead to the abortions - and also ask if a necropsy can be performed.

You should contact the local soil and water conservation district and inform them of a raw sewage discharge.

Get a copy of your survey to verify your property line, and also double check your title insurance. His survey may be different - and if there is an argument over whose property it is - you can get help through your title insurer.

Also consider contacting the state vet - this may be a reportable incident - your local vet may know.

Honestly - if you have documented losses, and you have a title issue, and an environmental issue - you must obtain representation. You may be able to merely file a claim against his homeowner's or farm policy, your title insurer; but it's something best decided by a competent lawyer.

A failed septic system is an environmental and health hazard, obviously. Usually the health dept doesn't get involved because the homeowner just hires a company to fix the problem and if necessary, get any required permits.

But if there is runoff onto your property, or an illegal line, and documented damage to property - as well as a true health hazard - this isn't some little health dept complaint.

The "value" of the livestock is not based on their status of a food animal; at least not entirely. While a heifer may be going for so many cents per pound, a prize breeding bull has a value beyond its carcass. Such valuations are carried out by a 3rd party appraiser.

Horse owners get hornswoggled by jerks who insist the value is only the carcass - but that is only one type of valuation - and the jerks know it. (or should). It's a way to get horse owners to back off a dollar figure or walk away from a good claim - because they think they can't recover their losses.

In short - get thee to a lawyer. Now.

If you need a referral, there are several atty's on this BB who would be happy to help you learn how to do that.

Duh - you have an attorney - can I assume this attorney is experienced in ag law? Ag law covers environmental, welfare, all kinds of things.

Here is a link to some ag lawyers in Ohio

http://www.martindale.com/Agricultural-Law/Ohio/9728-LL2/lawyers-cities.html

[Skip's Rider]

I'm so sorry you're going through this. The other posters have given some excellent advice. The abortions probably were due to the sewage, but proving it is an entirely different matter. Here's something else to consider -- mare reproductive loss syndrome -- like they had in Kentucky a few years ago. Is that a possibility? Did you have a large infestation of the catepillars I can't remember specifically what kind they are) in your fields? Could that be a reason why the mare with no turnout didn't abort? I am not saying you're wrong about the sewage. I'm just asking a question about possibilities. Good luck to you in finding some answers.

[trakama]

Thank you...State Vet? I will look into that.

I know lepto and EVA are ruled out. You brought up my very point, what is it besides the obvious that we need to look for such high metal concentrations. This is such an unusual situation that may have been overlooked were it not for the fact we have the one mare still in foal...the only mare that has not been exposed to that area since March.

What I hadn't thought about was that the reason this mare was pulled in was that she developed placentitis at day 307 and delivered a healthy colt at day 330. Could there possibly be any relationship to her placentitis, the abortions and the sewage? Is there possibly one thing that could connect all three of these?

[westernrider]

My immediate thought was EVA, or rhino. You said EVA is ruled out? did you test the mares for it after the abortions?

I agree that you should call the state vet school-- they will be concerned and want to help you get to the bottom of this. As disgusting as the raw sewage is, it may in fact be a seperate issue. The state vet is the key to finding the answers you need.

[CathyKb]

It could be a number of things, I hope you find the answer. I am soo sorry for your losses.:no: :no: :no: :no:

[equinelaw]

Ohio has one of the best Equine lawyers in the country. I am completly drawing a blank on her name right now (sorry!), but she does read COTH and occasionally posts here. You need to put OHIO EQUINE LAWYER in a thread title and she will see it. The lawyer will know what experts to hire and what dmages you are entitled to. My unprofessional opnion is that the damages are high enough to make the expense worth it.

I also do environmental law and the proof is not that hard to get. Gte in touch with her ASAP so she can get the experts you need on the case ASAP.

[alliekat]

Well I first will say how truely sorry I am for your loss. I can't believe the audacity of some people. Geeeh he could of atleast helped with the clean up. The fact that he left it a problem for months is reason enough to contact someone. I wish I could suggest something. I would be worried that it could get into my water source if I had a well. If it were me and no one from the health department or any other agency I would contact the local media. Bring some public awareness that they want you to "let it work it's self out". I wish you the best and hope you find the answers you are looking for.

[Blacklabs]

So sorry to hear this happen to you.

Your state vet would be with the EC Agency( Environmental Conservation). They should be able to help.

[lilblackhorse]

how about the ATSDR? They have been investigating the toxic chemicals we as humans were exposed to in leaching in North Carolina. They might have some ideas, or be able to give you some direction.

[trakama]

Thank you

[trakama]

I can not thank all of you enough. I was beginning to believe there wsn't anything to do but cry and try to keep from killing the ^&$*#^@.
If I get anywhere with this it will be because of you

[clanter]

might want to kick lawyer into gear as the system should ahve had an engneering plan

“Ohio river valley water sanitation district,”

CHAPTER 6113: OHIO RIVER SANITATION COMPACT


ARTICLE IX

The commission may from time to time, after investigation and after a hearing, issue an order or orders upon any municipality, corporation, person, or other entity discharging sewage or industrial waste into the Ohio river or any other river, stream or water, any part of which constitutes any part of the boundary line between any two or more of the signatory states, or into any stream any part of which flows from any portion of one signatory state through any portion of another signatory state.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/6113

[blaster]

Just a side bar note, once when the city had an inadvertant leak they cleaned up what they could and then limed. Lime is cheap and might start neutralizing..

[sidepasser]

Our vet has done a complete check on all of them. Our biggest concern is the lack of knowledge...what do we look for? High metals? What bacteria could there be in the sewage?
I know 2 of the kids are on medication as well as their mother whom takes enough serious pain killers to treat the esatern seaboard. It has been shown in some studies that some prescription medications pass through our systems and may not be broken down as easily as previously thought.
If I knew of some large environmental group maybe they would have an idea

Environmental groups won't know as much as someone who designs systems for a living..send a pm to me and I will give you the name of a person who "might" help you..he's a leading designer of city and state WWTP projects and I worked for him for 11 years..

he's wonderful in that he knows stuff others have forgotten..and he's licensed, etc. I also know several people in the WWTP field that could help. I will not post their names/addys on the net though so if you want to more information, give me a shout via pm.

and yes, there are toxicology studies that can be done, and yes, human waste is toxic. Highly toxic in some cases depending on the what has been ingested by the humans (i.e. certain drugs do NOT have short half lives, microbes, etc.).

anyhoo..might be able to prove up, but what then? does said homeowner have any money? If not, what about insurance like homeowners that could pay in lieu of the homeowner? If there isn't any monetary settlement to be had..what good will suing do? The scumbag likely doesn't care, and won't care that any and all of your mares aborted.
The county is not responsible for his septic system (other than being a human health hazard maybe)..

so what would you gain? Just curious because attorneys are expensive and so are lawsuits and if one isn't going to gain something (like a judgement that can be turned into cash to take care of medical bills for said horses and rebreeding fees) - it could be a very expensive (for you) lesson to teach.

[Melelio]

Can you get in touch with the vet school at OSU and see if they can help you with any studies they may have done regarding toxicity?

So sorry about your babies....I understand about inconsiderate neighbors but this is ridiculous....:no:

[Equine Reproduction]

This is a "duplicate post" but it was suggested I post in this forum also...
We need to prove that this sewage is the source of their abortions knowing that is the ONLY variable in the care of ours mares is not enough.

Unfortunately, you "will" have an incredible uphill battle proving that it was indeed the neighbor's septic system. Playing devil's advocate here, but things that "will" be asked if you ever try and get this into court are, was a necropsy done on any of the aborted fetuses? Did you even find any of the aborted fetuses? Was a full panel of tests done on the mares to eliminate any kind of other vector transmitted disease? Any other horses come onto your property? Is your property adjacent to property that has other horses? Feed? How as the feed? Who made the feed? Do you have batch numbers of any feed that was fed? Have you checked in the area to be sure no other mares have aborted recently?

As others have noted, contacting your state vet would be a very good place to start.

I need to know how to ensure our mares and their foals are no longer at risk. What can I test for? Where can I get it tested? How can I clean it up properly? Who can I call that will understand what I am talking about? How can I prove it was the raw sewage exposure that caused 5 of our 6 mares to abort?
PLEASE ANYONE?

First, you have to look at it from a neutral standpoint, which I know, under the circumstances will be difficult. Process of elimination.

***There isn't any cherry, black walnut or fescue these mare could have gotten into on our property. We have consulted an attorney, however, proving what the cause was and that it wasn't high nitrate levels from horse manure is a battle

Yes and quite honestly, I don't think you probably will be able to prove that it was the septic mess. Have you thought about contacting your personal insurance company? It's one of the first places I would start, at least for cleanup financial assistance. They will pursue your neighbor legally for recouping the costs if there is a case to be had, but at the very least, hopefully you can get the mess cleaned up.

Good luck! What a mess! Literally!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[trakama]

Bless all of you...

OSU vet school contacted, of no help. Maybe I didn't get in touch with right people.

Homeowner REFUSES to provide his insurance info...says it's NOT his problem. JERK

[deltawave]

Sounds like you're on the right track with all this good advice, but you may have a hard time PROVING, legally, that the abortions were directly attributable to the sewage problem. You know, "beyond a reasonable doubt" and all. Very sorry to hear about your mares. :(

[shaft0463]

Homeowner REFUSES to provide his insurance info...says it's NOT his problem. JERK

i worked in insurance for several years, and my dad has been in the same business for about 30 years.

for the time being, contact your homeowner's insurance company. they will help with cleaning up the mess, and trust me, they WILL go after him. a cleanup like that isnt cheap, and insurance companies are in the business to make money. if they think it will be worth their while to go after the neighbor, and if the laws allow them to, they will. its not your responsibility to get his insurance info, they have their ways of getting it themselves.

so sorry for your losses, and while you do have an uphill battle on proving the cause of the abortions, the cleanup at least should be pretty clear cut. every state's laws are different though, so check with the insurance company to find out *legally* who is at fault. some states have some downright strange laws, and i dont know anything about property laws in ohio.

[trakama]

Heres a good one for all of you....

We pay for an environmental rider on our homeowners insurance that comes at a rather hefty price. I did call them, I did file a claim, however, it has been denied because it is "land" not "property". In other words, if their septic had leaked in my home they would cover it but they will not cover the land it sits on.

Check all of insurance policies very well

[SportNCurls]

These people think the 150,000 plus gallons of raw sewage dumped on our property is something I shouldn't worry about and "will work itself out"!!!

***There isn't any cherry, black walnut or fescue these mare could have gotten into on our property. We have consulted an attorney, however, proving what the cause was and that it wasn't high nitrate levels from horse manure is a battle
OMG Have you tested your WATER? I am so sorry for the losses, and hope your mares have no residual effects, and your reach a resolution.... but please make sure You are safe from contaminated ground water!

[trakama]

yes, we are waiting for the results now. We had to everything but threaten the health department to get them to do it. Fortunately, our horses do not have access to water on our land nor do we have a well but it need done as a starting point. We have water lines run to areas providing them with the same "treated" water we have in our home...

[trakama]

Are you near Portsmouth or what other city are you near? Ohio ain't Texas but it's not Rhode Island either. Give us some specifics.

Yes, near Portsmouth...actually Oak Hill in Jackson County.
Portsmouth? You know of it? I am from there myself and I can tell you this much-I wouldn't be going through this there!

[Dutch]

I am truly sorry to hear of your nightmare. Unfortunately, I fear you have an uphill battle on your hands. I would think an environmental engineer would be someone you might want to consult with to provide further insight into your predicament. Best of luck.

[trakama]

The county is not responsible for his septic system (other than being a human health hazard maybe)..

.


The only thing the county IS responsible for is the fact that approved the sale/purchase of this property without requiring the proper legal easement for the septic/leeching to be on our property. According to State of Ohio Revised & Administrative Code a home can not be sold without proper legal easement and the Health Department is the entity that is responsible for checking this. There was a septic plan on file with the health department for their property but someone did not do their job, did not check, did not do what the law clearly states is THEIR responsibility.

The health department approved the sale contrary to state law and no matter whether they approved with knowledge the septic was there or they approved it without knowledge the septic was there because they didn't check, they still approved a sale that violated state law. So much for the departments that sre supposed to follow the law and protect us from this sort of thing.

[dr j]

You've had an abortion storm. Have you contacted your state vet? Ours would take that very seriously.

I would also be contacting Gluck, and asking what titers I should be pulling. It may not be the sewage. It may be lepto, it may be EVA, it may be MRLS, it be something different.

Don't get locked into a diagnosis before you have all the facts. A closed mind is the worst thing you can do for your herd.

I can only imagine how devestating this is for you, both financially and emotionally. My thoughts are with you.

I am sorry for your losses but ahf is correct, you have no evidence that these abortions are the result of sewage exposure. As a vet myself that would be pretty far down my list of differentials. You need to test for lepto, EVA, EHV etc. Contacting Gluck ( or having your vet contact) would be a great way to start.

An equine pathogen, toxic plant etc is probably much more likely than sewage contamination.

Good Luck, these cases are often big mysteries- hope you are able to solve yours.

j

[trakama]

lepto, eva, evh tested mares are fine.

Toxic plant is possible, though highly unlikely as we(I) have kept this as a high priority. I am what you might call a plant freak whom has a home full of toxic plants; something I know to keep up on. My husbands calls it an unecessary obsession of mine, I call it a necessary lifesaver.

Pathogen, what kind? Something that appeared in 3 months? There are no other livestock in this area, the contamination starts 55-60 ft behind our home and extends another 200ft behind our home...our barn in 50 ft behind our home...our land goes 3000 some odd feet straight back another 2000 whatever to the other side and another 7000 some odd feet in the other direction. We surround this neighbors property.

I will contact Gluck in the morning.

Thank you

[Slewdledo]

Can you research the bacteria that is found in sewage? Certainly there are HUGE deals when raw sewage floods people's houses due to the unsafe bacteria that can be ingested.

Good luck with this. We had a crop decimated a few years ago by caterpillars so I know how it is. So sorry that you have to deal with this.

[katlee]

I mentioned this to my husband (has a degree in bio engineering and is a chem officer in the army, bio hazards are a speciality of his). He recommended contacting the Corps of Engineers to do a study on whether the sewage contamination has affected any ground water. While you mentioned that the horses are watered via another source- they're testing would provide high quality verification that there IS contamination of your property and they would determine the source. The COE handles many of the water issues, esp in rural areas, and would likely be quite conerned about the possibility of water contamination. An interesting note, he said, was that human sewage tends to not "seep" very deep, but remain in a concentrated area close to the surface which contributes to it's toxic nature.

[trakama]

THANK YOU and your husband!!!

I do have video of this stuff simply sitting on the surface and some of it had a nasty looking "foam"-not like soap either.

I will try them

[dr j]

trakama

You have had titers checked on all the mares since the abortions?

j

[trakama]

It was done to see if there was a need to revaccinate even though all mares breeding to Kentucky stallions are required to be vaccinated no less than 90 days prior to entering the breeding shed; cultures no more than 60 days prior. All paperwork must be original and accompnay the mare at time of breeding. Additional cultures after 2nd cover are required. Kentucky is strict and rightly should be as Thoroughbreds are major source of income...the stud fees are even taxed.

Should we have checked for something else?

[aurum]

I am very sorry for these terrible losses, that is horrible. I guess I am not of any help, don't even understand what you think may have caused these losses. Could someone please explain what is raw sewage or septic system? I do not have any imagination what this is.

Abortions can have many reasons and I agree with the others that it might be difficult to proof what caused them without having had the possibility to check one of the dead embryos. Herpes can also cause abortions, maybe check for that too.

[On the Farm]

I am in dire need of help here in southern Ohio....

My husband and I started breeding last year and now have our first foal, a beautiful Tiger Ridge colt. So far so good....

Now the problem. We bred several more mares this year with great success, 100% first cover, that is UNTIL...our neighbors septic system failed leaking 1000's of gallons of raw sewage onto our property and now all of our mares with the exception of one have aborted. I have this posted in the Breeding section of this forum. with much more detail.

I need to find the cause and prove it. The mare that has not aborted has not been exposed to the contamination as we have her and her Tiger Ridge colt isolated from the area.

The property owner refuses to accept any responsibility and will not even assist with the clean up. Refuses to even provide his homeowner insurance information even when contacted by our attorney.

Now we have to PROVE the sewage caused the abortions. Does anyone have suggestion as to where we may start?

Thank you

I would speak with an equine reproduction specialist at either Ohio State or a vet clinic such as Rood and Riddle.

[glitterless]

Aurum, a septic system is basically a holding tank for human waste (raw sewage). The waste usually goes directly from the toilet into the septic tank.

[alliekat]

The only thing the county IS responsible for is the fact that approved the sale/purchase of this property without requiring the proper legal easement for the septic/leeching to be on our property. According to State of Ohio Revised & Administrative Code a home can not be sold without proper legal easement and the Health Department is the entity that is responsible for checking this. There was a septic plan on file with the health department for their property but someone did not do their job, did not check, did not do what the law clearly states is THEIR responsibility.

The health department approved the sale contrary to state law and no matter whether they approved with knowledge the septic was there or they approved it without knowledge the septic was there because they didn't check, they still approved a sale that violated state law. So much for the departments that sre supposed to follow the law and protect us from this sort of thing.

If this information is correct then I would definatly contact your local media. My mom and i did the same thing against the county aniaml department about horses that were being staved. The Code Enforcemnet officer had a grudge for what ever reason against the owner of the farm where these horses were being boarded. I called for atleast a week staright. When I couldn't get anyone from the county to come out and atleast "look" at them, I called the media to inform them of county's lack of concern for these horses. Well don't you know the county was very surprised to have to go live on the air and explain why nothing was being done. There was a huge public out cry. I don't know but it might make the couny bite the bullet and pay at least the clean up fees. That to me would be the most important thing to start at getting it cleaned up. Especially if your insurance wont cover it because it isn't "in" your home" like the other poster was hinting to.Good luck.

[blackstallion]

I didn't read if your neighbor is a farm/business or just a residence? The department of environmental quality would be who I would contact and get information regarding environmental contamination. If you've had any flooding (even a heavy rain downpour), the sewage may have spread quite a ways, contaminated your well(s), the pasture, etc. Unfortunately, without having a known cause for the abortions (did the mares get sick? run a fever, etc?), I think it will be hard to prove it was the sewage. If you could pinpoint the time when they aborted that might help find the cause and effect relationship.

Sorry for your losses. Your neighbor sounds like a real sh#!

[JustJump]

I'm confused...you say that:

our neighbors septic system leeching lines came on to our property extending roughly 200 feet through the lot behind our barn that led to ALL of our pasture. Their septic system failed and was leaking 1000's of gallons of raw sewage onto our property. There was NO way to get our mares to our pastures without their being exposed to this raw sewage.

Was this sewage leak IN your pasture? Or did your horses pass through the area of leakage to reach your pasture? Is the grazing area separated from the lot behind the barn (where the leakage took place) by a fence, or not? If so, are they led out to the pasture? Were they ever turned out ON the sewage lot? How/when did you notice the leakage? Was it before the abortions, or after?

[ise@ssl]

So sorry for this tragic loss.

I'm still trying to understand why the laterals for your neighbors septic system is on your property. That should have been disclosed when you purchased the property. Maybe Ohio is different than where other states but here in NJ the laterals have to be on the same property as the septic system and set back from the property line.

I also don't understand why your Vet didn't contact the State Veterinarian for Ohio. Also Ohio State has one of the best Vet schools in the country - contact them. I hope your Vet has completely examined your mares that aborted - including doing uterine biopsies and cultures/cytology. Plus complete bloodwork.

I'm also completely confused that you don't have a well - you are on a farm and your water comes from a public water system?

And while the issue of whether this caused the spontaneous abortions the other issue is the damage to your property - certainly a good a lawyer and your insurance company would start there.

Also why were these mares getting Progesterone shots every 10 days?

[ASB Stars]

In addition to the obvious Veterinary work, and testing, that is necessary, I would immediately contact your local Health Dept. AND DEP- who should be VERY concerned about this kind of contamination.

Good Luck!

[Erin]

Trakama, please don't keep starting new threads about the same topic. There's no need to post this in multiple forums. Please just use the ONE forum that is the most appropriate. I moved your threads from Off Course and Racing to this one.

[halo]

Do you have young stock on your farm? Do you diligently vaccinate for Rhino? Nevermind, I re-read the post and saw how early the mares aborted.

[OneonOne]

I'm also completely confused that you don't have a well - you are on a farm and your water comes from a public water system? I don't really have any advice regarding the abortion issue, but I wanted to comment on this. It's not unusual for some areas to have municipal water but not sewer, or vice versa. I work for an excavating company that installs sewer and water laterals, and we often see farms/farmettes with rural water and septic systems, or subdivisions around a lake that have municipal sewer systems combined with individual wells.

[dr j]

trakama

Yes- you need serologic titers on the mares NOW and if indicated repeats if any are suspicious. The pre-breeding requirements are what they are- if your abortion storm was caused by something like EHV, EVA etc it would have been something that happened after your mares were bred. As mentioned- have your vet call Gluck and get some recommendations as to what they think should be pulled. If your mares were bred in KY ( and I assume stayed there for at least a short time post-breeding) they will know what is "hot" right now.

If you really think you have a case for the sewage this is a MUST as these things are ALL more likely caused for pregnancy loss in the horse and therefore you will have to have firm proof they were not the cause.

J

[trakama]

Was this sewage leak IN your pasture?
Yes, in one of them, our first one behind the barn. Our land is rather "weird", almost an upside down "T" with our barn being at the top. The bulk of land goes to the left, wrap behind and around this neighbors 3 acres which is mostly road frontage approximately 300-350 ft deep.

Or did your horses pass through the area of leakage to reach your pasture?
They had been grazing in it prior to the discovery of the leakage.

Is the grazing area separated from the lot behind the barn (where the leakage took place) by a fence, or not?

Yes, the barn lot is seperated by a fence. The leakage cut through/across the barn lot, into the first pasture area which leads to the other pastures to the left. The raw sewage we now know covered a minimum area of 200-250ft in length and nearly a 100 ft at its widest point. This area from the barn lot into the first grazing area has a slight slope to it as it leads to the stream cutting across our property.

If so, are they led out to the pasture?

Not always...once the severity was discovered, we fenced, "enclosed" the area to prevent our horses access to it. That is as much as we knew about and as much as we could without becoming "landlocked" by the sewage as wehad no other access to our other pastures without passing through it. The grazing area below the barn is only an acre with numerous shade trees. After the health department finally confirmed the leakage was from the neighbors system and mind you, they had to dye the system twice because the first time they failed to check our property for the leak as we had advised them. It took actually video of the leakage for me to get them to come back out 3 weeks later. At that time we where informed the contaminated area was much larger than originally "assumed".

Were they ever turned out ON the sewage lot?

I would have to say yes as we had enclosed what we were aware of only. We were given no real advice or help from anyone in the beginning. It was something they did not want to deal with. I was making a big deal out of nothing when it came to our horses.

How/when did you notice the leakage? Was it before the abortions, or after?

The leakage was discovered before the abortions. The time period I am most concerned about are the 4 weeks starting on June 16th when we capped off the neighbors leech lines as they came across the property line onto our property. Oh well, sorry about their luck I wasn't waiting anymore.
***NOTE:The Health Department had determined the leakage was from the neighbors system on May 29th and every call I made from May 29th through June 15th to them went unanswered and not one message left resulted in a returned call.

Our vet had her normal 4 week visit on June 18th. Our mares were ultrasounded and yes, I have the ultrasound pictures, date, mares name, etc. on them. Everything was fine with our mares, their foals, the pregnancies...continue with the P4 injections every 10 days....any problems call her....be back next month. Our vet also saw that the area of contamination, as we knew of it at the time, was fenced off to prevent our mares from getting in as there as a large area of vegetation and trees that the sewage had begun to "pool" at the surface. Informed her that the area was scheduled to be cleaned beginning on Wednesday and that we capped off the neighbors leeching on Saturday...yes, we all had a good laugh at that.

On June 20th, the process of removing the neighbors leeching lines from our property began. These lines which were old red clay tile about 4 inches in diameter extended from the capoff point, inside the property line, 31 ft across our property, where at this point the line turned "down", not at a sharp degree but slightly, traveling another 196 ft, under our lots fences, through our barn lot, into our first grazing area to the first trees and from that point, continued another 78 ft to the stream. A total of 305 ft of lines removed. It was also discovered that these lines in our "grazing area" were not much more than 10-12 inches below the surface of the ground.

The leeching lines removed were full off black smelly stuff that was placed on a dump truck and hauled away. The vegetation with the exception of the trees were also removed. The Health Department stated that the top soil should also be removed and hauled away. They advised us that it wasn't necessary to remove anymore than the top 4-6 inches.

Our clean up was completed on June 22nd. Cleanup as we were advised to do. We were told that there would be no further risk to our mares now that the area had the lines, etc... removed

It wasn't until June 26th our neighbor's septic system began the process of being replaced. Our neighbors system, which had NEVER been pumped out during the 2 year period he owned it was a system installed in 1967. A system set up for a 2 bedroom home which then only required an 800 gallon septic tank. Cuurently, our county requirements for a 2 bedroom home are a 1000 gallon tank but here is the "funny" part of this whole situation....our neighbors 2 bedroom home housed 6 people 2 adults and 4 teenagers; a 2/3 bedroom addition was near completion. The required septic tank size for that many bedrooms is a double system holding 2500 gallons with an aeration system. I have also discovered that the previous owners also never had the system pumped in the 5 years the 2 of them lived there. 7 years that we know of where this system was never pumped out.

The new system was completed on June 29th.

When our vet visited on July 18th she advised that these mares had aborted recently, within the past week and one within a few prior.

My most concern lies with the time period of our "so called" clean up that was completed on June 22nd through our vets visit on July 16th. During that 24 day period is it possible that the health department advised us incorrectly about the cleanup? That the area was not cleaned as it should have been to prevent further issues? Not cleaned enough or enough removed? Is it possible that contaminates further down in the soil could have been left exposed or even stirred up? Etc, etc, etc....??? Is the contaminated area much greater than we were advised of?

If our vets time period for the abortions is in fact correct, that would mean the mares aborted roughly 14-20 days after the so called clean up on our property...10-14 days after our neighbors new system was installed.

We did EVERYTHING we were advised by the health department to do and then some, that is until we realized they didn't really take our concerns over this issue as seriously as we felt they should we. We also began to feel as if they were on the neighbors "side" in this issue almost as if they felt sorry for him. The health department even refused to advise our neighbor of his responsibilities over this...advise him that he was responsible for cleaning up our property and/or damages as it was his system that caused this issue.

Our health department literally left us hanging once they informed our neighbor his system was failing and needed replaced. Once that was done, our health department washed their hands of it. If we hadn't capped off the lines we could have still been dealing with a flood of raw sewage. It has been estiamted that this system due to its size and the number of people in the home that there is a very good possibility that the raw sewage has been leaking at since shortly after our neighbors moved in 2 years ago

[ise@ssl]

Why did these mares requires P4 injections every 10 days???

[Mav226]

I agree that you may want to contact your local media. Heck, contact anyone who will listen. Call your senators and state reps if you have to.

But I'm curious about your homeowners policy. Has an attorney (a good one) reviewed it? It seems strange that they would cover ONLY the dwelling. If someone crashed their car onto your front lawn and took out grass, trees, and shrubs; they would almost certainly replace those. So why not your back "lawn"? I don't doubt that there are policies written to exclude land, but maybe you could double check? After all, insurance companies are in the business of making money; a little pressure might convince them to provide coverage (if you are entitled to it).

Just out of curiosity, which homeowners carrier is this? It sounds as though I may want to stay away from them in the future...

[camohn]

I agree that you may want to contact your local media. Heck, contact anyone who will listen. Call your senators and state reps if you have to.

But I'm curious about your homeowners policy. Has an attorney (a good one) reviewed it? It seems strange that they would cover ONLY the dwelling. If someone crashed their car onto your front lawn and took out grass, trees, and shrubs; they would almost certainly replace those. So why not your back "lawn"? I don't doubt that there are policies written to exclude land, but maybe you could double check? After all, insurance companies are in the business of making money; a little pressure might convince them to provide coverage (if you are entitled to it).

Just out of curiosity, which homeowners carrier is this? It sounds as though I may want to stay away from them in the future...

Land exclusions: unfortunately a couple years back during the tornadoes on the East Coast some folks here found out excactly that........they had a lot of property damage (ruined fences, run in sheds, lots of downed trees that needed to be cut up and removed) and their policies covered only the house and the barn building damage.

[trakama]

Thoroughbreds see the breeding shed once in a cycle and even at that you can not always get your mare in when she is ready. We had two mares miss a cycle because the stallions were booked full when their time came. Repeat breedings in excess (more than 2) require additional testing before they can be breed. With that in mind, paying boarding expenses, transportation to & from the stallion farm, farrier, veterinary, etc.. and not having your mare shipped "home" until confirmed in foal can be rather expensive.

P4 is used as an aid to maintain if you will, seing as many mares can confirm infoal at 14-17 days and slip during the stress of shipping. If that happens you usually have completely lost any chance at breeding again that season. Our mares all confirmed in foal on one cover. The combined expenses for one mare, for 30 days, being bred in Kentucky, shipping back "home" could on the low end be $2000-$2500.

Once blood levels are checked, P4 is discontinued or continued depending on the results.


The insurance company is American Family.

[ise@ssl]

I just don't support the concept of giving mares hormones "just in case". Also it assumes that all mares have the same level of normal - that's not true. I just wonder if this caused the problem. I know there were studies done about moving mares back and forth for breeding and unless there are horrendously high levels of stress or exposure to pathogens - they don't abort that easily.

[LaurelHills]

Just a thought or a question but were all your mares off of their progesterone injections before the time of abortion?
Were they recieving Regumate or a compounded IM injection. As you know some exogenous progesterone supplements interfere with the assay for serum P4.
The reason I say this is because you mentioned progesterone "injection"

Just curious

[FalseImpression]

When I started reading, I was certain the poster would say she lived in TX. I read a very similar story on the TWR site a while ago. Same thing, raw sewage on one part of the property, no willingness to help on anyone's part. The landowners had just moved from CA. They were the new people "on the block" and the old boys' club tightened its ranks. I remember that they had a lot of horses and felt they had been ruined. I cannot remember who it was or how she dealt with it, but it was a very upsetting story. I will try to find it again, but I may not.
Good luck to you.
Whether or not the raw sewage contributed to the abortions, there is no doubt that the neighbour is responsible for the mess and should be held accountable. I just cannot believe this is not happening!

[avery]

i don't think you have to prove that the sewage caused the abortions. all you have to prove was his sewage was on your land. people without horses would take their neighbor to court for that sh*t.

[lorilu]

isn't there salmonella in sewage, also? A friend almost lost her horse due to salmonella from the neighbor's chickens. I'd check for that.

All E coli will prove is that there is fecal matter present. It's just the easiest to test and it is present in most mammals.

Good luck with your efforts. Maybe the JOckey Club can help, since they are TBs? Or the Ohio TB Breeder's Association (is there one?)

[Midge]

Any updates?

[A. P.]

How many years have you been breeding these mares on this property? if you can demonstrate that you have successfully bred and foaled out the same horses on the same property for several years in the past, and that the sewage leak is the only significant factor that changed, and since the one mare who hasn't aborted was the only one not exposed to sewage, you may well be able to make your case.

[trakama]

After resorting to all kinds of tactics to acquire our neighbors insurance information, we are now in the final stages of settling this with our neighbors insurance company.

Of course, he is still trying to figure out how his information was obtained and is so far from happy about it, livid might be a more appropriate term, that his own insurance company has determined his responsiblity...oh well.

Never give up when you know you are right!

THANKS to EVERYONE!!!

Happy New Year

[LockeMeadows]

Jingles from Virginia. No amount of money will bring back your babies, but hopefully the neighbor will be forced to clean up his act.

[Diamantcats]

I just did read this whole post and was amaised how little they did for you..
Happy to hear that your getting now help.
May your and your 2 and 4 legged familys New Year get healthy, happy and fertile ;)

[fish]

Thanks very much for the update, and the encouragement it gives to everyone to stick up for themselves.

[glitterless]

I'm glad to hear that everything is finally going to be resolved. Thanks for updating. Happy New Year :)

[cyriz's mom]

Congratulations on a successful resolution. Hopefully, your mares will have healthy foals in 2009. Thanks for the update!

[Kareen]

Geeze I just read this. I'm very sorry for your loss :( I can tell you where I live the government would be all over your sorry neighbor for hazardous negligeance of public interest. House owners here have to have their systems checked once to twice a year and it would be absolutely unthinkable to have a wastage line meant for one property coming even anywhere close to someone else's property. Farmers and businesses are also carrying full liability for any negative environmental effect remotely stemming from their property and equipment. While I often think our system is way too restricted and expensive (afterall all this control has to be paid for...) hearing what happened to you during this past half year really makes me reconsider my opinion :(
I surely hope his insurance will get it straightened out (even if it can be only financial compensation). I am uncertain whether or not your abortion case would have been easier here but the authorities would have jumped in with no delay here and dragged the man through the court and all kinds of testing would have been done all over the place because we are freaking terrified here of water polution. I am hoping this will be a once-in-a-lifetime-experience for you and you will have a great and uneventful breeding season in 2008.
I do agree with those who expressed their concerns with 'prophylactic progesterone substitution' especially because CL-insuficience is proven a rather rare cause of abortion and there are strong hints that longterm use of external progesterone may lead to other problems if not cause the issue you were thinking to fight with 'prophylactic' administration. GOOD LUCK for 2008!! You definitely had your share of misery for quite some time.

[Reed Hill Farm]

Thank you...State Vet? I will look into that.

I know lepto and EVA are ruled out. You brought up my very point, what is it besides the obvious that we need to look for such high metal concentrations. This is such an unusual situation that may have been overlooked were it not for the fact we have the one mare still in foal...the only mare that has not been exposed to that area since March.

What I hadn't thought about was that the reason this mare was pulled in was that she developed placentitis at day 307 and delivered a healthy colt at day 330. Could there possibly be any relationship to her placentitis, the abortions and the sewage? Is there possibly one thing that could connect all three of these?

I'm so sorry, how horrible!!! This is a stab in the dark, but at any time during the time the sewage started until the mares aborted, did your mares get the West Nile Vaccine?