THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

[STF]

The next time someone thinks that a 10K foal is expensive, go look at this:

http://www.spindletopfarm.net/breedingcosts.htm

And then shut your mouth!

*end of rant*

[CGregory]

Wow. How on earth are breeder's expected to make a profit? Somebody enlighten me...

[Platinum Equestrian]

STF, It's amazing to see it in black and white... it's costly to breed and that puts it really into perspective. I don't know how small breeders make a living, and again, that's if nothing goes wrong... my hat is off to all of you breeders!

[STF]

Most dont make money, they do it because they LOVE it and love the match making, the foaling, the new foal smells, the velvet coats and the whole ordeal. As sick as it seems, there is a huge swell of pride everytime a breeder foals a baby from their matchmaking combo.
Each of you should look up the breeder of your current horses and send them a Thank You card for the lovely horses you have, because they surely dont do it for the money.

[GreekDressageQueen]

What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.

[Reiter]

Yes, these numbers may not be true for everyone and while they may be lower for some lucky breeders I would bet (judging by the many threads about not getting mare's in foal etc. etc.) that for a lot of breeders they might actually end up higher than STF's estimates!

[ltw]

Actually, I think STF costs are VERY LOW.

My vet costs are typically much higher. Last year I spent $10,500 in vet bills to breed 3 mares (vet costs only). One mare got pregnant on one cycle. One mare got pregnant on the 2nd cycle, and the 3rd mare did not get pregnant. I spent $3000 on frozen semen for two mares, and the 3rd mare was given a free breeding with frozen as she was the #1 mare in USA. So, for two mares to get pregnant I spent $13,500 just in vet costs and stud fees.

My mares are all Elite or SPS. In many cases, I paid alot for them, what about their depreciation? or their purchase cost amortized per foal? I don't see where STF factored any of the investment of the mare into her foal. I also spend alot more on feed, shavings,e tc.

You cannot leave a mare to foal outside in many situations given weather or complications (health issues with mare and foal). So it is not really an option to not have a stall for a full term pregnant mare and after foaling. Many foals are not ready to be outside full time when they are born for health/weather reasons.

[STF]

What about breeders than own their own stallion?
Then take about 12% off the total costs. Even those of us who do own our own stallions, most of us do NOT live cover for safety reasons. So the only thing that would change would be the stud fee.

What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay.
Most breeders who breed top quality stock are NOT going to have a mare foal in a field or take the chance of not having someone there in case something goes wrong. Top quality mares are costly and to much to risk a complication. Not to mention the breeders stay up weeks and weeks for foal watch.

What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop?
Yes, that can happen. It will change your total 5-8%.

Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered?
Most reputable breeders will want their foals inspected and full papers given to them.

And this is saying NOTHING goes wrong, the mare takes on the first time, no multi collections, vet costs, hauling to vet, etc, etc.

[carosello]

What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.


Well Im sure if you look around you can find someone who owns a stud that bred it to some mare and doesnt keep it inside...why even handle it! Papers- who rides papers anyway- you dont need them. Inspections are the for the elitest anyway. Tuff babies grow up without trimming just like mustangs I bet. And shots, well if they dont go anywhere they wouldnt need them or a coggins. Heck in the old days horses used to jump up into the bed of a truck so why even buy a horse trailer!
Yes Im sure you can find it out there....but those people are not here on this board, but check out the local papers and you might find a few :o

[STF]

I don't see where STF factored any of the investment of the mare into her foal. I also spend alot more on feed, shavings,e tc.



Your right. Im working on that currently. Im trying to figure out a better deprecation scale than what the IRS gives us based on some factors. Im still beating it up on the 10key. If someone pays 30K for a nice mare and the average mare repo lifespan is, say 8-10 foals then the mare loses value each year. But... Im still trying to justify a % or number of how many foals a mare can have. Plus.... we all know the older the mare, the more issues she has, etc. So........ *sigh*, Im still beating this cost factor into the ground. (Yeah, Im an accountant..... I cant help it!) :lol:

Also, Id id not factor in taxes that need to be allocated either. There are a few things missing in the total cost structure I have up there.

[STF]

Well Im sure if you look around you can find someone who owns a stud that bred it to some mare and doesnt keep it inside...why even handle it! Papers- who rides papers anyway- you dont need them. Inspections are the for the elitest anyway. Tuff babies grow up without trimming just like mustangs I bet. And shots, well if they dont go anywhere they wouldnt need them or a coggins. Heck in the old days horses used to jump up into the bed of a truck so why even buy a horse trailer!
Yes Im sure you can find it out there....but those people are not here on this board, but check out the local papers and you might find a few :o


Hey, share some of that your drinking!!! :lol:

[STF]

bed of a truck so why even buy a horse trailer!


S**t!! That is another cost. Some breeders have a special horse trailer only for foals and mares for easy hauling. We have one that has removeable partitions and is low to the ground, etc. I know many breeders who have special trailers just for this. I forgot that costs.

[shea'smom]

ltw, did you really mean $10,500? If so, what were some of the breakdown costs in that? That seems really excessive to me.
Interesting thread, I agree that this does not hold true for everyone.
Costs of bedding around here, sawdust, is about $15 a month per horse.
Also, mares can live out a good portion of the year.
BAbies surely can live out after weaning?
As far as cost, you forgot the huge vet bills, deaths, of some of the stock, thereby killing your profit entirely!

[camohn]

What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.

I'll bite:
1)owned own stallion: first the 5 figure value of the colt at coming 2 (I did not breed him myself) then the usual costs after that to raise/train to breeding age. He didn't fall off the turnip truck for free....and boy is it hard to find trainers that will take a stallion!!!!
2) you can't assume a breeder got a multi mare or premium mare discount. Even assuming you did get a discount (up to 20% for such things) really knocking up to 300 bucks off the total cost is a drop in the bucket.
3) Inspection costs: the mare owner paid them, didn't they? It is an operating expense, but not a donation.
4) our horses live out a lot but do come in at night during the winter....so there are some bedding costs. Hay is a whole nuther ball of wax. We have 12 to 13 horses on 34 acres. Not overcrowded by a longshot....but we DO still have to hay. There are about 3 mos out of the year that the pasture is so lovely we don't need to. Certainly in the winter they are not living for free! They get grained twice a day and plenty of hay to keep warm when it is butt cold out. Summer when the pasture is good the grain is cut down to once a day for that 3 months the pasture is oh so lovely. Even then grass alone is not nutritionally balanced as the only feed for a broodmare. Yes, mustangs live that way. They also are a lot smaller, hardier and die a lot quicker in the wild. Not really optimal conditions.
For me to get a foal to 16 mos old with my lower overhead (less feed with good pasture and limited times of the year they are in w/ shavings) it costs me about 6K and I do not include some of the things on Spindletops list. Mine only includes directs horsecare expenses.

As someone noted, none of this takes into account the cost of the mare either. When I price a foal I feel the need to figure in 20% of the cost of the mare. It takes 5 foals to pay for the mare in this respect. And no........most of the mares here would NOT be here anyway if I was not breeding. I would have 2 riding horses. The 2 I kept for myself I don't actually even factor in to the operating costs of the breeding end as they ARE recreational to me so nope.......the foal buyer isn't paying me for their upkeep.

[Evalee Hunter]

. . . . but those people are not here on this board, but check out the local papers and you might find a few :o

Actually, some of those people ARE here on this board. We should get County to enter this discussion. I believe he has said he can sell his QH weanlings for $600 & make money. It would be educational to find out exactly how he does it.

[carosello]

True but County isnt breeding warmbloods. But you are correct about the rest I think ;)

Oh LaNet...Im just high on life tonight dontchaknow!

[GreekDressageQueen]

Well Im sure if you look around you can find someone who owns a stud that bred it to some mare and doesnt keep it inside...why even handle it! Papers- who rides papers anyway- you dont need them. Inspections are the for the elitest anyway. Tuff babies grow up without trimming just like mustangs I bet. And shots, well if they dont go anywhere they wouldnt need them or a coggins. Heck in the old days horses used to jump up into the bed of a truck so why even buy a horse trailer!
Yes Im sure you can find it out there....but those people are not here on this board, but check out the local papers and you might find a few :o

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[spacely]

LaNet, if I am ever in TX, I am taking you to dinner. Thank you!:D:yes:

[county]

Actually County didn't say he could sell all his foals for $600 at a profit wqe sell some for $2000 some for $1500, some years $3500 all depends on the market. The goal is to make a profit on the herd same as with our cattle. Costs for the horses is slightly higher then for the cattle. We can make a profit on the cattle if we average $525 a calf with foals its just over $600.

Costs are going to vary a HUGE amount from one person to the next. How you house them is very differant, feed costs are a HUGE differance around the country, if you use pasture most the year for roughage or feed hay is going to be a great deal differant for costs. If you foal inside or outside will make a differance, theres many many things that are going to make one type breeding operation profitable and another not so.

There is no right or wrong way that I've ever seen only differant ways.

[Equine Reproduction]

What about breeders than own their own stallion?

Then you need to factor in the cost of keeping the stallion.

What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay.

I know of very few places that mares won't need hay at least part of the year. I live in Oklahoma. Last year there wasn't a blade of grass to be found on most property here and most breeders were feeding hay in June. Add to that, because of the drought, there was no hay to be found and the hay we did purchase cost us $9.25 a 50 pound bale. And, stalling will be necessary during the later part of pregnancy or at least for most of us.

What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop?

I know of very few quality stallions that even with multiple mare or premium mare discounts will ever get down to $800.00 a pop. I'm puzzled by your question on this as you are the one that was concerned about the quality in this country. A premium mare may get a discount to some stallions, but she will have cost the mare owner more money to purchase. A top stallion with performance records behind him, good breeding and fully licensed is going to have a higher breeding fee. If the stallion is owned by the mare owner, they also will have annual stallion dues to pay.

Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered?

Do you want the foal registered? If you don't or are planning on doing it yourself, your costs increase again as you'll probalby need to get it DNA typed, as well as the dam. It's got to factor in somewhere or else you have an unregistered animal that is now ineligible for breed registry incentives and classes.

I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.

While I agree that some of the costs may not be true for everyone, there are other costs that aren't included in LaNet's assessment. I do my own repro work, but the IRS asks what of my costs are for personal use. But I suppose you figure that I shouldn't be paid for my time of having to get up in the middle of the night and check the mare if I'm using frozen semen, even if it is only a fraction of what you'd pay if you had to use a vet.

I have no doubt that I wouldn't own the amount of property I do if it wasn't for breeding! I could live in town and probably have a much nicer house for a lot less money.

And something that isn't mentioned is the fact that the average live foal rate in horses is about 65%. Let's be optimistic and say that with warmbloods, it's 75% because we're all responsible mare owners and we're all running IgG tests on every foal, making sure the mare is getting appropriate prenatal care, she's up to date on her shots, she's received all of her rhino shots, we've got a closed barn so she's not been exposed to anything, we attend all of our foalings and so we're able to intervene on any red bag deliveries or dystocias..but even doing all of that, we're still going to have one out of four mares not produce a foal. LaNet hasn't factored that in to her equation, so realistically, each foal should cost 25% more to include those additional expenses that don't result in a marketable foal. We won't even talk about the foals that are born with issues that require intensive veterinary intervention. And anyone that thinks those numbers are inaccurate, I can assure you that if you do enough breeding and enough foaling, you'll find the numbers average out...unfortunately.

I also own my own stallion. Sent him through his 100 Day performance test - $10,000 (he went in 1996 so it was a little bit less than now). Competed him through Preliminary level (Level 7-8) - I won't even venture to guess how much I spent over the years on that <rolling eye>. Advertising every year from 1995 through 2000 averaged close to $5,000 a year. Annual stallion dues, equipment and supplies to collect him, special fencing, additional feed to keep him looking good and fit during breeding season, dewormers, farrier, and so on and so on and so on.

And, if you're going to argue that all of those costs are deferred by the HUGE number of mares you're sure all stallions receive - most stallions receive a total of 6 breedings a year. TOTAL!!! And that includes the stallion owner's own mares. Yeah, there will be some that actually receive more and there will be others that receive none at all, but overall I think you'll find that those numbers are pretty darn accurate. I'm fortunate in that I don't do much advertising or promotion and Mannhattan pays his way. But I know of many, many more really well bred, phenomenal performance horses that the owners are doing everything right and they still get only a handful of breedings a year.

Sheesh...after reading through all of this, I really should have my head examined for even THINKING about breeding a mare.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[STF]

Then you need to factor in the cost of keeping the stallion.


Shall we EVEN go into the cost of advertising and what it costs to run ads for stallions. Someone else can explain that, Im going to bed!! LOL

Edited to add, yes there are still more things Im leaving out, as some have said. There are still some variable costs associated with all of this, but it depends on each individuals setup and ummm, overall breeding "goals!" ;)

[county]

Cost for me to keep a stallion is virtually the same as the mares with the exception of more hay costs for the time there not on pasture when the mares are.

[STF]

County I think we are comparing apples to oranges. You are at a totally different specturm of the horse world than a lot of us.
:)

[county]

I totally agree and have said no less. Theres many many differant ways to breed and raise horses. None are right or wrong there just differant. I know ranches that have stallions with $10,000 stud fees and places with $100 fees. The horses on many are housed and fed the same way, others very differantly.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I own my own stallions, and do live cover them, but with a caslicks in place on a few older girls, I still have to pay the vet bills. My mares have to have stalls 365 days a year, as the fields are needed for the stallion turnout on the opposite schedule. In a stall, they are taking up a space I could be renting to a boarded horse. After weaning, I do keep the youngsters in a field/run-in, so my "costs" do go down then. I am not making money. It IS a labor of love, and a labor of believing I am making several people very happy with their talented youngsters.

[shakeytails]

OK, I'll play too.

My costs are a whole lot less than that example.

Grain- $40 Max per month (-$10)
Hay- about $20 per month, if that, because we grow our own (-$50) (-$960 in feed costs)

I'm sure feed costs are much less than that, too, because once the foal is weaned and the mare is bred back, she goes out on pasture where hay and grain are fed only when the grass isn't sufficient to meet nutritional needs- generally winter only.

Shavings $5/mo. - the only cost is the fuel to go get them (-$960 in shavings)
Farrier about 10 trims in 16 mo, $15 ea (-$298 in farrier costs)
Yearly vet costs not including breeding- under $100 (float teeth, shots) (-$150 in vet costs)
Mortality insurance- I don't think so. (-$550)

Indirect costs per horse (I have about 15 total): water $3 (-$4), utilities $7 (-$18), insurance $7 (-$71), hired labor- yeah, right. (-$85) Total -2848 for 16 months.

Just those differences in expenses add up to $5766. $10,507 less $5766 = $4741

If you want, you can add in about $1000 for that 16 month period to cover the foal's portion of the mortgage,taxes and tractor and equipment payments, even though that also includes the roof over my head (no I don't have much of a mortgage, and taxes are cheap here). That still only brings the total cost- if breeding and inspection costs stay the same- to $5741.

If you stand your own stallion and live cover, you can subtract another $2200.

Just because it costs one person $10,000 to get a foal to weaning age, doesn't mean it costs that much for everyone.

[Tasker]

Well, I want to thank LaNet for doing all of the math...it is depressing to sit for a few minutes and add the actual costs :sigh: of doing what I love. FWIW - I think the total cost is conservative. *shudder*

[tradewind]

I run into the same thing with my dogs, so you guys have my sympathies. People can not fathom 1200 dollars for a puppy. You can explain and explain about showing costs, stud fees, health testing, vet care, high quality food, conditioning time, socialization of puppies, registration fees etc etc. The people who have made up their mind that good breeders are a rip off are almost impossible to reverse in their thought process..good luck with your rant, I am 100 percent with you.

[camohn]

Cost for me to keep a stallion is virtually the same as the mares with the exception of more hay costs for the time there not on pasture when the mares are.

My point on a stallion being "free" is not what it costs for his feed and upkeep...which for me was not actually more when he was younger. Our guy lived happily out with the mare band when he was home. He did cost me a chunk of change to purchase in the first place, and if not for breeding it would not have occurred to me to run out and get a stallion if I just wanted a riding horse. I got really lucky that he WAS such a blast to ride and such a gentleman even around mares. (Well luck to a point. His sire was like that too....buying a baby I did a lot of hoping he would be like his daddy when he grew up and got hormones!). Once he got to about 4 it became necessary to keep him in training over the winter. I do not have an indoor so that meant even though we have our own farm he had to be boarded out. Farms with an indoor that will board stallions are really hard to find around me!!!! So then I had trainer expenses and outside boarding fees that nope........I would not have if I did not own a stallion. When he died at only 5 I figure I had 25K in expenses into him.....not nearly made up for the 12 foals he sired...1/3 of which were my own mares so not income generating. One glossy ad in a magazine for one month alone can cost a thousand dollars. The advertising alone can eat up those paid for stud fees.

[county]

Oh I agree stallions can be expensive I've paid $25,000 for some. I insure mine until they pay for themselves after that I drop it. I've been fortunate never to lose one over the years at a young age one of mine is 25 now and still doing a great job of settling his mares.

[goeslikestink]

depends on costs depends on enviroment- or situation

county has lots of horse and his own land so he could keep them easily
and can seperate them if he choose to

an no doubt could keep his offspring as a herd in a herd enviroment so his costs would be loweer perhaps than a one man band

but then there are those are are top quality and selective breeding - of type
and have proven background and if chose to add an AI service

then another typer of person breeds and brings up a horse as an addition
like me say-- i have 12 all together debs has 4 i have 8 - but i can house 12
to feed another mouth if it was a pony wouldnt cost me that much extra
but would cost a little extra if a horse- but still my cost would be lower than most becuase i have my place

but to bring up anything does cost it depends wether you doing it yourself
or you paying someone else to like a barn owner -- yard owner then expenses will be much higher
as they have to cover there own cost

at the end of the day its all about profit -- and what profit margine one has
or waht the product they produce is worth- some will add the year to date
which is fromwhen it born to how old it is now -- but some forget in those 1st few months the foal wasnt eating --anything-- it was drinking milk - but then again they had to kee the mare in tip top condidtion so she could produce the milk..

so and some willwork it out on th ancestors - or performance for a dispaline


and some for a labour of love -- but it a all profit

what ever way you look its profit for what you think the products worth as to on a whole
or part off a whole ------cost me this much ---$$$$ so i want this much $$$$
back--

[rcloisonne]

Sheesh...after reading through all of this, I really should have my head examined for even THINKING about breeding a mare.
Kathy, surely you know the "secret" of making a small fortune breeding horses, don't you? You start with a large fortune! :lol:

The TB folks have it right. Many yearlings sell for high six figures if their breeding is what folks are looking for (lots of "black type"). Of course, the stud fees for top TB sires are in the six figure range too and you must ship and board your mare where the stallion stands, use the stallion station's vets, etc.. Yep, that's how real money is made. A $10,000 TB yearling is considered bargain basement and is usually not well bred.

[Stacie]

From an IRS perspective, doesn't a horse related business have to make a profit at least year out some number of years to be considered a business for tax purposes? One sick baby or a bad foaling where the mare is hurt or gets sick can wipe any profit out quickly enough.

[Daydream Believer]

What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.

Wow...that's for sure. :eek: If it cost me that much to put a weaner on the ground, I'd not be doing it! Unfortunately, we cannot command $10k for a weaner in our breed yet...wish we could...but that's neither here nor there.

A good example...I can feed and care for one of my horses for about $900 a year...hay, grain and I trim my own. I feed good quality round bales mostly... My number does not include any vet costs but those are pretty minimal except for an IgG test and any other unexpected calls. I do not have farm labor...I do all the work myself except for the help of my parents with mowing and some chores. I stand my own stallion. I pay for one ultrasound post breeding to make sure I don't have twins. I don't do inspections and registration papers cost me less than $50 per foal. My horse live outside so I don't have bedding costs except when the mares are in for foaling. I'd guess my total costs to weaning are around $1200 give or take a hundred either way...and that's one reason why I would never buy a weanling for $10,000...I don't care what breed it is.

Some people may say that I cut corners but I don't. My horses are healthy and fit. They get regular worming and hoof care and all are usually way too fat! Granted my horses are easy keepers and that does make somewhat of a difference but not $9000 more!

We do desperately need to get prices up in our breed and mine are some of the highest prices in our registry...but my foals are handled, wormed, trimmed etc... compared to some who sell wild wormy, thin ranch babies for $650.

Edited to add that my stallion pretty much pays his own way in stud fees. If I had to breed to outside stallions, it would cost me somewhat more. Almost none are available AI yet and I'd have to haul mare to the stallions.

[county]

Oh for sure it can same as any species of animal. Raising livestock for a living has never been for the faint of heart. My daughter says those who do it for a hobby do it as a ' lifestyle " choice. Those who do it for a living do it as a " way of life " choice. Big differance between the two.

[Leena]

Thanks LaNet !

The discussion is always better with a spreadsheet since numbers don't lie. Actually I would love to have some of your costs since I paid much more for collection fees for example.

I agree we do love horses, match making, quality foals. I feel so disapointed when I read or hear nasty comments on our work; when we loose a foal, we loose a family member, one of our kids.
There is a great lack of recognition for breeders.

[graystonefarm]

Since I've begun breeding (9 years ago) my vet fees have ranged from $10,000 to $15,000 for breeding 2-4 mares a year. Only 3 of those years resulted in more than 1 foal. I'm not among some of those breeders with a bottomless pocketbook so I've had to sell mares just to pay my vet bills. With the cost of vet, stud fees/costs, grain, hay, shavings, inspections, membership fees, etc. I still could not make a profit.

My mares and babies come in at night. I do all of the labor myself while working a full time office job and taking care of my family. My riding has had to take a back seat to everything else and I miss it very much.

As much as I love the babies, I just can't do it anymore.

[camohn]

The cost to raise a kid will certainly vary a lot by location. I think we are middle of the road here. Before getting married I looked at a job in a far flung corner of West VA as they were willing to pay good salaries for medical personnel (no one wanted to move there!) and property prices: you could take a zero off what you would pay here......while where my step daughter lives (within communting distance of Washington DC) the cost of our farm (when we bought it) will buy you a 3 BR ranch on a postage stamp sized lot. Ups and downs. Since we are close to the shows (Devon, Upperville etc) then there are more marketing opportunities. Folks here that live in certain places in say the midwest have lower property costs but they complain no one wants to come see them in the relative boonies to look at prospects. If you want to spend more on a foal (higher production costs) you can see a lot of horses at a lot of farms in an easy drive around here. If you want to spend more on travel to more "spread apart" breeding operations in the midwest for example you can probably get a very nice foal for less money.

[Heyday]

Awe - someone with the same numbers as me! Glad to see I am not the only one. I breed as a hobby not a business. If I look at it as a money-maker I would go crazy because it is not possible. My husband restores cars. There is NO money in that either. He spends hours upon hours and will NEVER get his money out.

Once you/we accept horses/breeding is NOT a money making adventure you will be happier.

by the way - where is the Botox fee for wrinkle removal from all the stress!!!:winkgrin:

[Norsire]

I about fell out of my chair when it said " take out about 12% for owning a stallion." Ah...stallions have all the cost of mares and more with freezing them, collecting them, extra help in live cover to hold the mare, advertising...if you own a stallion the foal cost is even more.

I've said more than once recently, it is amazing to me people won't pay a decsent price to buy a foal and all of the cost have gone up but wormer these days. I feel like I'm breeding so I can give nice foals away to someone else to raise. We even do all our own hay and you think it saves up money...NO! The cost of the up keep of all the equipment to make hay, the time in labor is incredible, extra hired help to help with hay, and the fuel cost going up.

Then add on a Vet bill that is not normal and you are paying to give your foals away after you pay all the cost of a hospital stay!!!

[Sister Margarita]

What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.

Owning a stallion opens up a whole new can of expenses, don't think that makes it any cheaper! Owning a stallion and the associated handling and promotion is a full time job with full time expenses in itself. Unless you are a big operation with big farm backup, standing a stallion is no small job. Spread that out over each foal, and you are again up in costs.

Premium mare discount often comes with a premium mare investment up front.

[M. O'Connor]

I am certainly not expecting a profit--it's not likely that ours will be offered for sale...I've looked at it from the point of view that it costs a certain amount to maintain our farm and horses, and it will cost a bit more to breed our mare and raise a youngster...basically, overhead to get her bred, then the cost of one more mouth to feed. (I'm grateful that all but one among ours are very easy keepers.)

A major consideration has to be that though the costs (within a range) are pretty fixed to breed a mare and raise a baby to whatever point you plan on selling it, the prices that such a baby will bring will necessarily fluctuate. It might COST a certain amount to produce a young horse, but it doesn't guarantee that buyers will be willing to pay that much to purchase it.

How do the Europeans do it? Are they paying less to produce at the same time that their young horses regularly command higher prices on the selling side? How do they manage it? That's what needs to be figured out, it seems.

[Molly Malone]

so nobody puts their own time down as a cost?

Now you know what labor of love means.

[county]

If your adding all these extra costs and not recovering them then why do it if the goal is profit? If its a hooby then theres no profit or goal of one. If its a business and you know you can't recover extra costs I'd think your not running the business very efficently. One should at least try and be real about it I'd think.

[TKR]

Owning a stallion is alot of trouble because you have to deal with incoming mares or shipping semen -- so you have to have the facilities for the stallion and mares or AI equipment as well as the knowledge and experience or good help to breed or collect. Of course you also have to care for him through the rest of the year, too. The advertising and competing is another ball game as well as approvals. If you own or stand a stallion, it's because you like stallions, not because you are raking in the chips!
PennyG

[acottongim]

Right on STF (although I really could have NOT known what it cost me this early in the am! LOL).

We breed because we love the smell of new born babies, the velvet noses, whuffs of breath, the challenge of picking the right stallion for the right mare and seeing that outcome 'in the flesh", the excitement of bringing a baby into the world and watching it grow up to be an outstanding citizen, etc. We don't breed to get rich.

And there are MANY variables in breeding. Prime example. My mare Cory - the love of my life (and yes, 3/4 T'bred - but neither dam nor sire were OTTB). She gave me one foal with minimal costs (aprox $4000 for breeding and vet fees). That was in 2003. From 2003 until 2006 I tried everything to get her in foal again. We racked up EASILY close to $8000 or $9000 in breeding and vet fees alone to get her preg - 3 vets told me to give up. I have a BEAUTIFUL filly this year out of her, who isn't for sale for any price, but would have easily have been a $10,000 filly if she was regardless of what it cost us to get her on the ground. We rebred her for a full sibling and have $1700 in her for breeding and vet fees - so let's round it up to $2000 to make it easier. I am not counting the mare's food, hay, costs to have my barn, the normal vaccinations, farrier, etc as I would have those costs regardless. Also not in those figures (except maybe in the last one) are the costs of the foal - the added vacinations for the mare, the added feed costs for the mare and foal feed, the post birthing vet costs, the farrier for the foal etc. My figures above are strictly the stud fee, insemination costs, ultrasounds, Hcg, oxytocin, lutalyce, trip calls, flushes for the mare, biopsy, cultures, etc. And this is from a friend that is the SO so he didn't charge me to actually INSEMINATE my mare - would have upped the price if he or the vet had charged for that service. It is a crap shoot. Oh and my stud fee was $1250 in all the above breedings.

[STF]

Not all expenses will be the same for each breeder, thats just common sense. But this gives you an idea of what it does cost to put a foal on the ground from a lot of our prespectives and those can plug in their own montly cost numbers and get an idea.
There is still a lot of allocated % costs I could add in. Farm costs % such as fencing, fixing things (which we know happens daily!!), Fuel going back and forth for feed/hay, % of cost for making our own hay (sorry, but its NOT free, even if you do make it!! LOL.... it still takes costs to make it and bale it). Fertalizer and weed control. Minerals if added that year etc. There is so much Im leaving out on this rough estimate.

And like someone else said, the botox cost due to the huge bags under our eyes for weeks of foal watch, prenatal care and worry. And, dont forget the midnight coffee/expresso expenses too! LOL

[county]

Fixed costs such as a morgage, taxes, fences etc. for sure should be figured in. I figure 1/2 for personal and 1/2 for the livestock. But when you spread it out over 100 head like we do versus say 5 head its going to be a huge differance.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I think those expenses are right on for a lot of people here. Fortunately my expenses aren't quite that high; you all should move to the mid-west! Seriously, good grazing land/haying land here is $2000/acre and I don't even live in the middle of no-where; actually live about 10 minutes outside a moderate sized college town and only about 1 hour from downtown Kansas City. Hay prices are still painfully high, though, because of the shortages in the last couple of years. My veterinary costs are lower, which is a blessing, but some of that difference is made up in using frozen semen (which I'm starting to use more and more) and all the risks and time associated with that. Our largest expense is the development of the raw land once we purchased it; the fencing, the barn, the equipment and the insane amount of labor that it constantly requires to keep it up. Then of course all the regular costs of the horses; feed, hay (which we are feeding right now; not enough good pasture for everyone-just too dry here), farrier care, vaccines, etc. And there is always at least one major illness or injury every year it seems! So I don't think that spreadsheet is really that far off, even for those of us lucky enough to live in "cheaper" geographical locations.

[STF]

Fixed costs such as a morgage, taxes, fences etc. for sure should be figured in.

Only parts of your mortgage can be figured in, only the part that supports the business you claim on your tax returns. PS - fence and taxes are a variable cost! *wink*

[county]

Actually I was talking real costs not for the IRS.

[STF]

Do you not run by IRS standards?

[county]

Yep and do what my CPA says should be done when it comes to taxes.

[CathyKb]

The estimates are really very realistic and sad. That is why most breeders do it for love! Also I have known so many breeders this year with $xx,xxx vet bills for illnesses and injuries for their foals. Maybe all breeders should post their costs on their websites, just to remind potential buyers of their costs and what it takes to breed them a wonderful horse.:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

And this does not include the labor of love!!

[Tamara in TN]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;2605254] But I know of many, many more really well bred, phenomenal performance horses that the owners are doing everything right and they still get only a handful of breedings a year.

Sheesh...after reading through all of this, I really should have my head examined for even THINKING about breeding a mare.

QUOTE]

well....it is kinda like growing hay :D

we have a financial planner who comes every Jan and reviews the numbers....employees paid,fertilizers spread, depreciations,taxes,insurance,equipment payments and so on...

those numbers are plugged back into number of acres in tillage and expected crop outputs and finally....what we must sell the hay for per ton producted to break even...and then make a profit on top of that....and remember we have no outside source of income


so we know in Jan what we must make per ton thru the year and that sets the base price....

if a horse grower figures all their costs for a year and at the end of the year has to sell a baby colt for $32,634 dollars (or some other ghastly figure) then it is silly to even try such a thing when the base price for a similar product is $4000.....


now sure you can use the IRS loop holes and deductions for 5 years to "make a profit" and that will send some money back to to you....but imagine if they said you must show a profit in 24 mos....that gives a more accurate real wolrd view of things.....

I have an old book dating back to to 1920's...it talks then about horses working in the carriage services in the big NE cities coming mby railcar load from the midwest where "grain is plentiful and horses are cheaper off the farms"....things have not changed so much today

Tamara in TN

[Daydream Believer]

Fixed costs such as a morgage, taxes, fences etc. for sure should be figured in. I figure 1/2 for personal and 1/2 for the livestock. But when you spread it out over 100 head like we do versus say 5 head its going to be a huge differance.

That is a very good point and one reason my overhead costs are minimal per horse. I have 30 horses between a stallion, mares, and young stock and breeding is not my only business...I also board and train. The area in which you live does have a lot to do with it also. I can't raise a foal as inexpensively as a rancher with 4000 acres on a homesteaded ranch with no mortgage but I can raise one for less than someone in a high land value area.

One really good way to keep down costs...and again economies of scale are at work in a larger farm situation...is to buy hay in bulk. I buy it by the tractor trailer load from New York and I save a lot of money over buying it in small quantities from the local hay dealers like I suspect many of the smaller breeders with a couple of mares do. I will bring in a truck every two months at minimum.

I'll bet I save a fortune doing my own trims. Here is some math for you. I have 30 horses and let's say I trim them every six weeks on average. That is 8.6 trims a year per horse x 30 horses =258 trimmings @ $30 a trim is $7,700 a year. Granted...learning to trim your own horses isn't for everyone...but it is one way to save a lot of money when you have a good sized herd and the trim session is a great training opportunity with the youngsters. I also have a hard time finding farriers/trimmers that handle foals the way I like to and that will be patient with them.

Costs certainly are a lot higher when you pay $1500 stud fees and have to use AI...but in some breeds...you have to compete with those who do not do that and just because it cost you $4000 to breed your mare one year, does not mean that farm down the road with their own stallion spent that much to do it. I think the market is getting more and more competitive...to include the sport horse market and keeping down your costs is going to be critical for those who are actually in business and have to show a profit at some point.

[Pronzini]

Kathy, surely you know the "secret" of making a small fortune breeding horses, don't you? You start with a large fortune! :lol:

The TB folks have it right. Many yearlings sell for high six figures if their breeding is what folks are looking for (lots of "black type"). Of course, the stud fees for top TB sires are in the six figure range too and you must ship and board your mare where the stallion stands, use the stallion station's vets, etc.. Yep, that's how real money is made. A $10,000 TB yearling is considered bargain basement and is usually not well bred.

You can make real money but you can lose real money too. It is not unheard of to sell a horse for $10,000 that you have a six figure fee into. The stallion notorious for that is Awesome Again. Check out last year's returns on a $125,000 fee:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/stallion.aspx?stallion_no=1439425

Out of 20 yearlings sold, 1 sold for less than $5000, 5 sold for less than $10,000, and 10 more sold for less than the stud fee. And you better believe the other production costs are as high or steeper.

Just keeping it real :)

[county]

Can't agree more DB theres many many factors involved to cut costs. Doing your own farrier and vet work is a very big one. I do my own A.I. work, virtually all my own vet work. My livestock is on grass from mid May till late Nov. saves a whole lot of hay which is cheap here to begin with. I raise my own but you can buy it for $35 to $50 a ton oats is a record high this year but still only $2.25 a bushel ( 32 lbs )

[STF]

Racing and Sport Horse are two different industries. You cant compare the two.

[county]

I don't think anyones comparing them really just saying costs can vary a great deal around the country and as to how a person chooses to do things. Theres no rule that says something has to be done a certain way or that someone has to spend X number of dollars. Its a personal choice. There is no right or wrong only differant.

[camohn]

so nobody puts their own time down as a cost?

Now you know what labor of love means.

That about it in a nutshell.

[graystonefarm]

Someone mentioned farrier at $10 a trim??? :eek: Mine charges $40 a trim, even for the babies.

BTW, my colt was SUPER for the farrier yesterday (and yes it cost me $40). He's 7 weeks old (and huge!) and I had only picked up his feet for the first time yesterday morning. Never even picked them out before or touched them (except when he was born). I attribute it partially to consistent handling and nurturing to gain their trust. We had to bottle feed this guy for the first 24 hours b/c his legs were so long that he could not stand up on his own. I used to lay next to him in the stall petting him. :) He loves people and is secure with anyone and anywhere.

A breeder with 10-20 foals a year who has them turned out 24/7 cannot possibly do that much handling. I feel that this is something that should be worked into the equation. Most riders who buy babies have never had much (if any) experience with them. Foals don't know proper behavior and must be taught what is acceptable and what is not. You need to know when to act, how much to react, and to do it quickly. That comes with experience. It's so easy to ruin a baby. They become so big so fast and can get hurt or become dangerous.

Now, don't you think that a rider would prefer to buy a young horse that had a sound beginning and pay a little more as opposed to one that hasn't been handled and is scared and insecure? I have had so many horses throughout my life and I can tell you that the ones that were sweet and trusting and could socially interact with people were the ones that gave me everything they had under saddle without resisistence, not to mention those were ones who also stole my heart. I have 2 of those in my barn right now and my colt is not far behind.

[STF]

Something to remember too -
When you compare costs, you have to compare to those of the same realm of what they are offering. You cant compare two totally different breeding operations (such as QH to Warmblood or even ponies to Warmblood) and get a honest figure, as the whole industry changes 100%. When you compare, you have to do it on level ground.
This may be confusing to some of you as your not deep into the accounting as I am or some others (CathyKb is also a Accountant and I can tell Tamara knows her stuff as well as a few others based on terms and language), but you cant compare apples to oranges.

[Renae]

What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.

If you can raise colts so cheaply why are you complaining about how much colts cost, just buy a broodmare and raise your own :rolleyes:

[county]

Like everything else foals are all going to be very very differant and alot of their personality etc. is from their breeding. The foals I've had over the years with alot of running blood in them required a great deal of handling pretty much from birth to be trained properly. The ones with a great deal of cow horse blood are just the opposite most of them walk up to us when they hit the ground and we can run our hands over them right from the start. Halter breaking at weaning time is a very easy job.

[PineTreeFarm]

Something to remember too -
When you compare costs, you have to compare to those of the same realm of what they are offering. You cant compare two totally different breeding operations (such as QH to Warmblood or even ponies to Warmblood) and get a honest figure, as the whole industry changes 100%. When you compare, you have to do it on level ground.
This may be confusing to some of you as your not deep into the accounting as I am or some others (CathyKb is also a Accountant and I can tell Tamara knows her stuff as well as a few others based on terms and language), but you cant compare apples to oranges.

OK, so does the IRS have different rules depending on what you are breeding ? QH opposed to WB?
Does QH hay cost less than WB hay?

I fully realize that everybody's costs are different, in fact I said that on the other thread.

[county]

I'm not at all fimilar with the differant rules for breeds other then QH and Paints. What things have to be done a certain way for differant breeds?

[graystonefarm]

Like everything else foals are all going to be very very differant and alot of their personality etc. is from their breeding. The foals I've had over the years with alot of running blood in them required a great deal of handling pretty much from birth to be trained properly. The ones with a great deal of cow horse blood are just the opposite most of them walk up to us when they hit the ground and we can run our hands over them right from the start. Halter breaking at weaning time is a very easy job.

Not always true. My colt has "blood" on the top and bottom a few generations back.

http://www.graystonefarm.com/San_Morant.htm
Hill Hawk xx: http://www.graystonefarm.com/Divali.htm

[Pronzini]

Racing and Sport Horse are two different industries. You cant compare the two.

Don't both industries rely on a market though?

What I see a lot in this thread is a number of breeders saying my production costs are X and therefore a weanling should be worth X + Y to make sure I get a profit.

Boy I wish my world worked like that...The commercial breeders I know (and yes they are TB breeders) look at their mares, look at the prospective stallions, look at the probable yearling averages for both if they have an average nice foal (as opposed to a superstar or a train wreck) and decide with production costs if the move is financially viable. The market always comes first because no one really cares what you have in the yearling. If they like the yearling, they'll buy it--if they don't they won't.

If you consistently produce horses for more than the going market price, you're a hobbyist, not a commercial breeder. There's nothing wrong with that--I didn't sell a horse this year--but it's a distinction that the IRS makes a big deal about.

The market is the market and it may be foolish insofar as it appears to value something highly (ie imported horses) beyond what you believe is the actual value. But it still has to be recognized and dealt with. I don't believe anyone--even sport horse breeders--is guaranteed a profit in the horse world. I also don't see where the prospective buyers owe anything to the producers as they select among thousands of horses to buy. That's what a free market is all about.

[county]

Oh for sure every foal can be differant I'm just saying in my experiance over the years blood lines especially close ones play a huge part in a foals attitude from birth. We breed for a calm type foal with alot of cow in it. Compared to the running types we used to raise most are as differant as night and day.

[Tamara in TN]

Don't both industries rely on a market though?
I also don't see where the prospective buyers owe anything to the producers as they select among thousands of horses to buy. That's what a free market is all about.

an interesting factor also is the amount of money that can be made back on an investment animal....the AQHA IF and the NCHA/NRCHA/NRHA LTE's and the TB BLACK TYPE all have a specific meaning to the open market buyers....within these purchases you have a promise (however slight) of a return on the investment....

within the German/EU "Warmblood" ranks you have a notion that some American buyer will wander over and pick one up as they are more rare here and the training protocols there are fairly uniform....so those are investment animals to the Germans/EU folks.....

if the sport horse world wants big money returns on colts they really really need to set up an IF or LTE's or something to give an idea of the colt as a true investment and not a pet to ride around on

Tamara in TN

[STF]

OK, so does the IRS have different rules depending on what you are breeding ? QH opposed to WB?
Does QH hay cost less than WB hay?

I fully realize that everybody's costs are different, in fact I said that on the other thread.


No, they dont. But you cant compare two different breeding operations based upon cost when one is raising 600lb ponies to one that is raising 1700lbs wambloods. Your cost configurations are totally different.
You have to base on the same type, same goals, same sales costs.

[STF]

I'm not at all fimilar with the differant rules for breeds other then QH and Paints. What things have to be done a certain way for differant breeds?


Ok, Im gona try to make this simple -
When you are doing a cost comparision you have to compare on level fields. This has nothing to do with the IRS/Tax, it has to do with basic cost accounting. We are talking to two totally different things.

[CathyKb]

As others have said, the costs will vary greatly, depending where you are located. It seems that hay costs have sky rocketed over the past couple of years. Hay was $3 to $4 out of the field, now $7 is a bargain, if you can find it, also with grain prices that have jumped, property taxes have risen, electricity costs have doubled and etc. Also some breeders never figure in the cost of their land, barns, fences, hay fields and etc. I know of some breeders (no matter what breed) that throw their mares and stallion out in the pasture and never look at them until the foals (if they survive) are ready to be weaned and also breeders that take wonderful care of their mares and foals and handle them daily. Which one would I buy, no question but the well handled and cared for one.

These costs are a reality, and if it wasn't for the addictive love of a foal's touch, smell and love, I bet the market would have a lot fewer foals. Of course I think breeders are a breed of their own and have to be a little crazy.:yes::D:lol::yes::D:lol:

[PineTreeFarm]

No, they dont. But you cant compare two different breeding operations based upon cost when one is raising 600lb ponies to one that is raising 1700lbs wambloods. Your cost configurations are totally different.
You have to base on the same type, same goals, same sales costs.

Ok but your statement compared QH's to WB and that's what I was asking about. Sure, ponies eat less. LOL

"You cant compare two totally different breeding operations (such as QH to Warmblood or even ponies to Warmblood) and get a honest figure, as the whole industry changes .."

[STF]

Don't both industries rely on a market though?

What I see a lot in this thread is a number of breeders saying my production costs are X and therefore a weanling should be worth X + Y to make sure I get a profit.

Boy I wish my world worked like that...The commercial breeders I know (and yes they are TB breeders) look at their mares, look at the prospective stallions, look at the probable yearling averages for both if they have an average nice foal (as opposed to a superstar or a train wreck) and decide with production costs if the move is financially viable. The market always comes first because no one really cares what you have in the yearling. If they like the yearling, they'll buy it--if they don't they won't.

If you consistently produce horses for more than the going market price, you're a hobbyist, not a commercial breeder. There's nothing wrong with that--I didn't sell a horse this year--but it's a distinction that the IRS makes a big deal about.

The market is the market and it may be foolish insofar as it appears to value something highly (ie imported horses) beyond what you believe is the actual value. But it still has to be recognized and dealt with. I don't believe anyone--even sport horse breeders--is guaranteed a profit in the horse world. I also don't see where the prospective buyers owe anything to the producers as they select among thousands of horses to buy. That's what a free market is all about.

Again, were talking two different markets. You cant compare the race horse market to say a jumper breeder market. Your comparing apples to oranges again and cant get a reliable figure. Your buyer market is not the same and you cant compare something that is totally different like that. Now if you were breeding TB's for the sport of jumper, dressage, eventing, then we could compare costs, but the stallion you listed was for race purposes.

[STF]

an interesting factor also is the amount of money that can be made back on an investment animal....the AQHA IF and the NCHA/NRCHA/NRHA LTE's and the TB BLACK TYPE all have a specific meaning to the open market buyers....within these purchases you have a promise (however slight) of a return on the investment....

within the German/EU "Warmblood" ranks you have a notion that some American buyer will wander over and pick one up as they are more rare here and the training protocols there are fairly uniform....so those are investment animals to the Germans/EU folks.....

if the sport horse world wants big money returns on colts they really really need to set up an IF or LTE's or something to give an idea of the colt as a true investment and not a pet to ride around on

Tamara in TN


I think in todays market, the breeders need to look at it as a short term savings account and only to expect 75% returned, if that. :lol:

[STF]

Ok but your statement compared QH's to WB and that's what I was asking about. Sure, ponies eat less. LOL

"You cant compare two totally different breeding operations (such as QH to Warmblood or even ponies to Warmblood) and get a honest figure, as the whole industry changes .."


If you go and look on the sales site, agdirect, equine, dreamhorse, etc. The market cost for a QH is not going to be the same as for a top bred warmblood in the same disipline.
You have to compare like to like sales operations to get a correct factors.

[sunridge1]

So then I guess what you're saying is it costs even more to raise draft horses. That is if your basing your figures on the size of the animal.
Mary

[PineTreeFarm]

If you go and look on the sales site, agdirect, equine, dreamhorse, etc. The market cost for a QH is not going to be the same as for a top bred warmblood in the same disipline.
You have to compare like to like sales operations to get a correct factors.

Perhaps not but the market value for a reining horse or a barrel racer or even a halter horse may be higher.

"This may be confusing to some of you as your not deep into the accounting as I am or some others (CathyKb is also a Accountant and I can tell Tamara knows her stuff as well as a few others based on terms and language), but you cant compare apples to oranges"

So in your best condescending voice please explain what you mean. I’m not an accountant so I must be a moron so speak slowly and in words of one syllable.

[STF]

So then I guess what you're saying is it costs even more to raise draft horses. That is if your basing your figures on the size of the animal.
Mary

No, thats not what Im saying. Each cost is set by its own operation. What Im saying is you cant compare two seperate types of industry. What a draft is going to sell for is not what a top bred WB will sell for, changing profit margins drasticly.

[Ashemont]

$28 for farrier? HUH? I get a great rate of $20 for a trim but my mares are done every 6 weeks and once they foal the babies are done every 6 weeks too.

Now the inspection fees are higher than what we pay but overall a pretty good breakdown. Maybe all breeders should put a link to it on their site :yes:

[STF]

So in your best condescending voice please explain what you mean. I’m not an accountant so I must be a moron so speak slowly and in words of one syllable.

Im not getting in to your sarcasm. I have obviously offened you. You can work with your own accountant and understand how cost compaisions work and how industry standards change comparisions.

[pwynnnorman]

I haven't read beyond the first few posts because IMO the thread started with such bull (in terms of logic and reasoning), I can't wait to respond (:winkgrin:).

Peeeeoooopppplllle, I'd agree with the OP if she took the time to QUALIFY HER STATEMENTS!!!

The horse industry isn't just YOUR part of it and what YOU choose to do in it! If you choose to breed horses in such a way that 75% of your costs are overhead, that's your choice! It doesn't make what you produce worth more, for heavens sake. DUHHHHH!!!!

Are you at allll aware of breeders out west in other breeds who produce both expensive and reasonable babies in an entirely different way and such that the prices asked reflect the beasts' traits, not the breeder's choices?

Simple example, although "out there" in terms of relevance to this crowd, I'm sure: STALLS. You can leave those broodmares out, y'know. And SOME (this is the "out there" part) actually cut costs by using STRAIGHT STALLS whenever they can.

Egad, straight stalls? Yeah, I'm sure many wouldn't be caught dead with such, not even in that back barn that no one ever sees (so they wouldn't impact the public impression of a facility that, one must admit, can influence what people are willing to pay). Another example, relevant to pony breeders: do you breed a big mare to a small stallion or a small mare to a big stallion? The latter is far, far more economical, but most still choose the other route. Another example? The foal is crooked legged or the mare has some health issue. Do you choose to cull or to spend some huge sum (sometimes more than the value of the beast) on correcting the problem(s)? WHY? Is the mare or foal that rare? And yet I see breeders do this time after time after time. How many folks out there have even admitted to have produced a cull, much less actually culled it in a business-wise way?

Choice. Your choice--just like it is the (discerning) buyer's choice whether or not to pay for your choices.

[Tamara in TN]

I think in todays market, the breeders need to look at it as a short term savings account and only to expect 75% returned, if that. :lol:

that's prob more than a little true....:winkgrin: one thing that strikes me ( as an outsider to WB breeding and such) is that until and unless the WB's can provide a unifed front to the buyers today,things seem a bit dim....

if we take Germany (which as I recall I can cross from Munich to Bremen by an 8 hour sleeper car) and the USA in comparison...(last I checked it took me 5 hours to get to Memphis and that is still w/in my own state :lol::lol:) then

Germany is a bit like Wales where the fab Welsh Cobs come from...or here in the States, Vermont that held all the wonderful old Morgans or middle TN/Western KY that was reknown for mules production thru the 1960's and even today mules from here are sent to far off military places....how about the great IA and IL based stallions that created the great hitch horses ???

anyway...if you want real competition and real good prices you need a high concentration of animals available in one place at one time...perhaps each state needs WB breeders to stop squabbling between each other and set up real regional/state based sales...or sales websites...

many years ago I offered a free Welsh sales booklet when we ran a big Purina dealership....over 100 people asked to be listed in it....I dunno what sales were ever made but it was quite popular here and people here were amazed that there were so many real welsh for sale across the USA....

Tamara in TN

[STF]

Peeeeoooopppplllle, I'd agree with the OP if she took the time to QUALIFY HER STATEMENTS!!!

What would you like me to qualify???? I dont know how much more qualified I can get.

[Tamara in TN]

That about it in a nutshell.


and if Michealangelo had charged the Holy Father by the hour the Sistine Chapel would still be unpainted....:winkgrin:

Tamara in TN

[Tamara in TN]

And SOME (this is the "out there" part) actually cut costs by using STRAIGHT STALLS whenever they can.

Egad, straight stalls? Yeah, I'm sure many wouldn't be caught dead with such, not even in that back barn that no one ever sees .

actually I prefer to them to box stalls...I also prefer the EU gestute ideals of communal living in the great well bedded halls....the first barn I designed had more than 21 straight stalls
down the long side...it worked wonderfully....

that's just me...."out here" :winkgrin:

Tamara out in TN

[flshgordon]

The next time someone thinks that a 10K foal is expensive, go look at this:

http://www.spindletopfarm.net/breedingcosts.htm

And then shut your mouth!

*end of rant*

AWESOME!!!! I just can't wait to find out what the rest of your customer service is like :rolleyes:

I just LOVE it when someone I would consider doing business with (which I would assume you might think you would get some clients/breedings through COTH) tell me to SHUT MY MOUTH! :no:

Honestly, there are a lot of you here that just leave me shaking my head. Would you behave this way to a Client's face? Tell them to pay what you tell them and shut their mouth?

It's a shame that I (who don't own my own farm so have to pay BOARD on all my horses, including the baby--who is now 4yo) am the only person who is somehow able to produce a really nice horse out of a nice mare and nice stallion that costs less than 10K.

By the way....a LOT of breeders also take in boarders. While I understand that endeavor does not yield much if any of a profit, it basically takes all the "farm costs" that you guys keep rolling into the price of a foal out of the equation. If you can't make ends meet without charging clients for your water bill and homeowners/farm insurance, perhaps consider taking in some boarders.

Alas....probably no point arguing with a brick wall.

oh....forgot to add, I'm startled by the fact that some of you think that babies should grow up IN STALLS every single day?

[STF]

Ok, my bad! I forget I should sell all foals for 4500 and take a loss for all my money just because........ :lol:

Flash, chill out! You know me, Im not that mean in person.

[Trevelyan]

I do think STF's breeding costs are pretty well itemized for most of us breeding WBs, asuming all goes well and there is no missed cycles, accidents, illnesses etc.
Ponies are for sure less costly to breed, stud fees are less, they are a much hardier animal. Our ponies are up and running around in minutes and can usually take care of themselves out in a pasture much much earlier than the WB foals and the pony mares certainly eat much less than the WB mares.

edited to Add that I didn't respond to the original post about having to pay 10K for a weaning because I thought it was a tease!

[STF]

And for the record, I dont breed heavy anymore. I breed for myself and each foal I breed I do offer for sale, but also have adjusted to keep them here and bring them along to sell under saddle. I dont breed more than the farm can handle anymore. There are to many people who want gold for the price of dirt.

[pwynnnorman]

What would you like me to qualify???? I dont know how much more qualified I can get.

Quite simple, actually:

"The next time someone thinks that a 10K foal produced for the dressage and/or vanity market in an expensive part of the country at an elaborate facility where excess must be accepted ias overhead because it is important to keep up with the Jones' to illustrate that the foal's value is the same if not better than the Jones' is expensive, go look at this:

http://www.spindletopfarm.net/breedingcosts.htm

And then shut your mouth if you are one of we who choose to waste money like this!

:lol:

(And I do realize, STF, that your facility isn't that elaborate, so actually the qualifications I recommend wouldn't actually apply to you, but I do think you are something of an anomaly.)

[Trevelyan]

I haven't read beyond the first few posts because IMO the thread started with such bull (in terms of logic and reasoning), I can't wait to respond (:winkgrin:).

?


Egad, straight stalls? Yeah, I'm sure many wouldn't be caught dead with such, not even in that back barn that no one ever sees (so they wouldn't impact the public impression of a facility that, one must admit, can influence what people are willing to pay). Another example, relevant to pony breeders: do you breed a big mare to a small stallion or a small mare to a big stallion? The latter is far, far more economical, but most still choose the other route. Another example? The foal is crooked legged or the mare has some health issue. Do you choose to cull or to spend some huge sum (sometimes more than the value of the beast) on correcting the problem(s)? WHY? Is the mare or foal that rare? And yet I see breeders do this time after time after time. How many folks out there have even admitted to have produced a cull, much less actually culled it in a business-wise way?

Choice. Your choice--just like it is the (discerning) buyer's choice whether or not to pay for your choices.

I have to ask..probably missing the obvious...but why is it far more economical to breed a small mare to a big stallion. Is your thinking that they can get away with live cover and not AI?

[Daydream Believer]

No, they dont. But you cant compare two different breeding operations based upon cost when one is raising 600lb ponies to one that is raising 1700lbs wambloods. Your cost configurations are totally different.
You have to base on the same type, same goals, same sales costs.

I agree that there are different costs by certain breeds or types of horses but I don't agree that the costs need to be $9000 more to raise a WB foal. You could raise that same WB for much less if you choose to. Like County says...and I agree...we all make choices on how we do things and what to spend doing them.

Certainly I don't have to pay $2000 stud fees but then neither do WB breeders necessarily. If you chose to breed to a top studly than that is a risk you'll take that your foal from Stud Du Jour will come out nice enough to warrant the big price tag. It could come out with crooked legs and not be able to trot nicely at all...it's a crapshoot...but just because it cost you 10,000 to put your foal on the ground doesn't mean it's worth that much.

I am a CPA by the way...I know a little bit about cost accounting and economics. ;)

[pwynnnorman]

No, it's just a matter of overhead. The standard in pony breeding is to breed a pony stallion to a TB (or WB) mare these days to get a medium or large--and some folks keep quite a few mares in programs like that. But those mares, on average, eat a lot more, need more farrier care, need more shelter, get into more health issues, have more difficulty foaling, etc., etc., etc. than your average, uber-efficient pony mare. Of course, it's cheaper to grab a pretty OTTB and breed her than it is to seek out nice pony mares, but the trade off is often not worth it, especially for those seeking to produce top of the line foals (mediums and larges close to their height limits). And yet, time after time, it's done. The reason is because so many breeders own their own stallions--a choice, of course--and so inefficiently model their business plan around that stallion, rather than modelling a business plan and choosing the stallion that fits it.

[NOTE: Please don't think because I'm saying this that I'm perfect either. Most of us, myself included, take what we have first and then try to make it work out. But again, that illustrates the choices we make.]

For me, the bottom line is that I accept my choices for what they are. I don't expect anyone to pay for them unless I prove those choices are actually worth paying for. IMO, the opposite is a kind of like an "if you build it, they will come" mentality.

[Home Again Farm]

I looked over the cost break down and agree with most of it. Each of us manages our horses a little differently than the next person, so there will be variability in costs, especially when it comes to things like shavings, hay, farrier, and vet bills.

I keep my mares out with big run in sheds most of the year. They come in a month before foaling and some may be in under lights if they are open and I want to start early in a breeding season. Babies live out unless thay have a problem that dictates that they be in. All come into stalls to eat. So I use shavings, but not at a rapid rate.

However, here in FL, bulk shavings now cost $450 per 15 yard load. :eek:

I do not count utilities, water, etc in my costs.

However, my general vet bills are definitely higher than those that STF listed.

But it is in breeding costs where things can really go awry. This year I had a new mare that had what seemed to be a minor uterine infection. Wrong. :no: Five infections, one fungal infection, months of treatments and two breeding attempts later that mare is going to go back to being a riding horse. Vet bills alone were about $8K.

Another mare for some unknown reason declined to become pregnant after three breeding attempts, with an excellent repro vet covering all the bases. This is a relatively young, easy breeding girl who had a very easy foaling. Vet fees — $500 per cycle (frozen semen), semen costs $700 per cycle. Total costs of breeding $3600. No foal coming, no live foal guarantee. She will have a year off. I wish I had had a crystal ball to have been able to see the need to just give her that time off without spending all that $$$$$! ;) :no:

Two years ago I lost a mare one day after she foaled. Stupidly, I had dropped her insurance. The mare had cost me too much to print here 8 months before. Colic surgery (which was unsuccessful) was about $5K. Nurse mare costs were about $5K. Her colt sold for $9K. You do the math. Two months later I lost a filly to a sudden seizure. She was 50% of my foal crop that year. You can only imagine my costs versus income for that year. The heartbreak was free though.:sadsmile:

I totally agree that we cannot expect to make money on every horse that we produce. I also agree that we really need to watch costs as much as possible.

But I also believe that a horse is worth what it sells for, or perhaps more to the person who is buying. My youngsters have with very few exceptions sold for the figure that the board is tossing around (or for more). Even with that, I do not make enough for a sane person to keep breeding, because those bad years (when the losses may be in the tens of thousands) will totally negate the decent ones (when the profit may be a couple thousand).

I can't believe I just typed this. Sadly it is true.

[Black Forest]

I had a lengthy conversation with someone who breeds and buys in around 80 foals a year. He sells his horses at 4 or 5 years old, with some competition milage under their belt at that point (the 5 year olds) and he has the most incredibly place, employs several horse-starters etc etc. He reckons he needs to average € 20 000 for a 4.5 year old to break even.

He sells some for € 5000 though.... How can he do that? Because some others sell at € 100 000 and for each he sells at € 100 000 he can sell several for € 5000.

And when he sells one for half a million (and he turned down that sum for one of his young stallions who *is* now sold so he got at least that for him) that horse will pay for a LOT of horses that sell between € 5000 and € 10 000 before this breaks into the profits.

He says selling foals is not worth it for him.

[Trevelyan]

O.K. I see your point...more costly to keep a TB broodmare than a small pony broodmare but then aren't the large horse stud fees considerably more costly than the pony stud fees. Isn't it swings and roundabouts (old english saying-sorry);)

[sunridge1]

But we're not talking profit. We are talking cost. And that is a personal choice.
$120 a month for feed on a weanling is unrealistic for most people. And all babies should, in theory be turned out the majority of the time for proper bone density. You couldn't give me a weanling that wasn't turned out more than half the day. And if people were true breeders of quality, one of the qualities should include: Can give birth without a team of vets on site. Just like a Cryptorchid isn't advisable genetically. We've made our own bed with the difficulty getting a mare in foal, keeping a mare in foal, and successfully birthing a foal. And then the animals are kept in glass houses so they can't learn anything on their own. It shouldn't be that hard and mostly we cull for the wrong reason's consistantly. Especially in America.

Your animals or anything, is only worth what someone is willing to pay and fortunately for the WB breeders there seem to be plenty of willing people.

Mary

[Equine Reproduction]

The horse industry isn't just YOUR part of it and what YOU choose to do in it! If you choose to breed horses in such a way that 75% of your costs are overhead, that's your choice! It doesn't make what you produce worth more, for heavens sake. DUHHHHH!!!!

<smile>...pwynn is actually correct on this. If you CHOOSE to keep your mares in box stalls bedded to their bellies and mollycoddle them, hiring people to insure that there is never a pile of manure anywhere and feeding them only the very, very best hay, throwing out anything that is in the least bit dusty, you cannot expect to recoup that in the cost of your foals. That's just common sense.

However, flip side of things is that I can literally cut my expenses to the bare bones and save probably a couple grand a year on each foal and I know of several breeding operations that do exactly that. Pasture last year was scarce here in Oklahoma, but if I chose not to hay my mares from April through September, I would have saved considerably there. Yeah, my mares would have looked terrible and I would have had to hide them away, but I'm not selling the mares, right? De-worming and vaccinations - skip it. We'll de-worm like they used to. Once in the spring, once in the fall. I just saved myself a BUNCH there, as well. Grain? Nah...they're on pasture! I'm one of those that doesn't keep horses in stalls unless they're injured or for the couple days pre and post foaling, so that's not really an issue. There "is" a happy medium, but there is also some bare essentials that many of the facilities that run large numbers of horses in huge bands neglect.

Additionally, some of the comments about not comparing apples to apples don't hold true either. Just because we breed warmbloods does NOT put us in an elitist category. I deal with a LOT of top dollar breeds in all walks of the industry. They deal with the exact issues we are. Take a trip down to Carol Rose or Babcock Ranch for a look at how high end Quarter Horses are bred. Go out to Shelbyville, Tennessee to check out the top Tennessee Walking Horses. Kentucky for Thoroughbreds...and so on. The flip side is that some of those industries have such a HUGE number of horses produced every year, that the horses that don't cut it in their particular industry can be purchased for a song! Heck, the Quarter Horse mare we purchased as a jump/tease mare (she's been ovarectomized) cost us a "whopping" $510.00 at an auction. Nice mare, fully registered, trained to the hilt...$510.00!!! I didn't have to deworm her, train her, feed her, vaccinate her, etc. for the first few years of her life and that alone would have cost the $510.00 we paid for her!

It's a law of averages. If you don't make much money on one horse, you better be recouping your investment on another one. We can argue until the cows come home (or horses :D ) but the bottom line is that yeah, I can cut corners here and there and not have it impact things...maybe. Skip a de-worming here and there. Don't vaccinate another year. But, at some point, those cost cutting savings may end up costing more in the long run. And, quality does pay! You can also, as County noted, spread some of the expenses over many animals - but remember that you'll have additional costs and overhead doing that. So, you'll save some on each individual animal, but you'll have the additional expenses of more animals.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

[CathyKb]

Most breeders take these things into account when pricing a foal, not just actual expenses.

Pedigree of the foal.
Conformation of the foal.
Yes, there are ones that are not what we expected or hoped for.
Most of us discount to the perfect home (hopefully).
Discount to performance homes.
Discount to repeat buyers.
and so on.
I have been very grateful and happy that most of my foals have gone to wonderful homes, so with that said, I want to Thank also the wonderful buyers and owners out there.:yes::yes::yes::yes:

[lizathenag]

so 10% of that foal's cost is due to shavings????? turn that baby out!

[Tamara in TN]

<smile>...pwynn is actually correct on this. If you CHOOSE to keep your mares in box stalls bedded to their bellies and mollycoddle them, hiring people to insure that there is never a pile of manure anywhere and feeding them only the very, very best hay, throwing out anything that is in the least bit dusty, you cannot expect to recoup that in the cost of your foals. That's just common sense.

However, flip side of things is that I can literally cut my expenses to the bare bones and save probably a couple grand a year on each foal and I know of several breeding operations that do exactly that.

and as you know the down side to the "cheapness" of non urban/subdivision living is that those super cheap foals (invariably) must go to some subdivision/farmette sales or training barn to be seen...it is the rare person who will fly 1000 miles from their home to look at one foal being sold off a video.....no matter how fancy schmancy he is....(and this can and does add thousands to the price required to break even....)

and what are the horror stories of just such trips ??? we all have them....

the bottom line is to know your bottom line....when my FP looks at me in Jan and says "you will need $160 a ton for <insert hay field number> across the year to break even" then we consider if it is even possible to sell such hay at X price...

if there is no way in the world that our fixed inputs can come down to a level such that the hay can break even we must as a business go another route with <insert hay field number>....

Tamara in TN

[pwynnnorman]

Black Forest, that is a model I agree with (and I've said so before). It's what is missing in some of these arguments, perhaps because soooo many folks seem to think that every foal they produce is worth X amount. Like the OP on the $10K weanling thread said, everyone's foal is a great mover with an excellent temperament, yada, yada, yada. If it were THAT easy to produce all of those desireable traits, this would be a different industry entirely.

Fact is, everyone produces duds (although some, due to their circumstances, can sell even a dud for good money--but that's has nothing to do with breeding) and has huge losses due to unforseen circumstances. Everyone has foals die, mares die, etc. But if you plan only to produce foals that earn a profit by covering their expenses and a little more--if you DO sell $10K+ weanlings that you've put $10K into--then even that model isn't going to work because of those dead, deformed or otherwise defficient weanlings that consume more profit that the sold ones produce.

IMO, the only way to make it in this business is by going for the windfall. IMO, the windfall is also the very best way to improve the quality of your stock and also contribute to the betterment of your breed or your discipline-based type. And I know there are breeders, even here, who have their eye on that, although maybe they don't call it what I do.

Anyway, this is why I'm irked by the idea of the $10K weanling. I simply do not believe that the vast, vast, vast majority of breeders (not the select few who, again, can sell even a cull for a profit) in dressage or any other discipline come even close to selling $10K weanlings. I DO believe that far too many breeders put that much into their weanlings. And I DO believe that far too few breeders produce--to put it bluntly--enough winners to make up for the losers. Why not? Because too few breeders have a plan to produce winners. And who knows? Maybe the reason for that is because they put too much effort into trying to sell weanlings and yearlings to buyers who don't exist?

[Oakstable]

Many WB breeders are unaware of any other equine industry. We think $3,000 is a hefty stud fee. Browse through some QH sites of the top breeders. Same with some of the fancy Arabians.

Sure, you can find QH and Arabians in the sales sites for $1500 OBO.

That's just one end of their market.

I don't tally up my expenses and price accordingly. We have to be very aware of what the market is willing to spend. I think there is a concensus that $10K is a reasonable ballpark figure for a nice WB weanling, with a swing of $2500 either way. Some individuals will go for more, maybe $15-20K. Some will go for less but not happily so.

Also, presentation matters. I remember someone going to NorCal to shop for horses. Our mutual trainer preferred a horse at a small breeder's farm, but the buyer bought at Glenwood. The white wraps, braids and general presentation were very convincing. And all that classy presentation costs the owners a lot of money, and that was factored in the price.

[juliab]

What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.

It is MORE expensive if you own your own stallion! Then you also have the upkeep and all the costs of keeping a stallion! If you think raising a weanling is expensive, you should try standing a stallion, even if you only use him to breed your own mares.

[dray]

Good work LaNet.

We also can figure big five figure numbers on the performance mares and stallions imported and the 5 figure import fees (vans, air, vans, quarantine, and more vans) to get them to your farm.

Up unitl last month, I was paying $120 per round bale and that was buying them 10 at a time.

The price of corn per bushel is up 65% in May '07 over May '06, so feed costs have risen dramatically.

The excessive rain are keeping the cost of hay up becaue farmers are not gettting the number of cuttings thi year...so it isn't so much better than last year...and again, the corn for gas instead of food is driving the costs up again.

I think anyone who thinks we over-charge for young horses and make out like bandit should just go ahead and buy the airline ticket and go buy in Europe.

Donna Ray
Carson Farm
www.carson-farm.com

[Daydream Believer]

Many WB breeders are unaware of any other equine industry. We think $3,000 is a hefty stud fee. Browse through some QH sites of the top breeders. Same with some of the fancy Arabians.

Sure, you can find QH and Arabians in the sales sites for $1500 OBO.



Very true. One of my clients pays up to $5,500 for stud fees on her mares to top arab stallions. She is gambling on getting a top foal to sell for $25,000 as a weanling/yearling or $40,000 started. She does get that much for some and others she will give away. She doesn't expect everyone to pay a price that covers her costs for all of them. They are priced by quality, breeding and talent. She breeds for the Park and Pleasure show market for arabs and NSH foals. If I were to guess I'll bet she has $12,000 -$15,000 in some of them by the time they are weaned. It's a whole different market than the "average" arabs for certain....

I don't think anyone here is saying that a top WB foal is not worth $10,000. To the right buyer, I'm sure they are. What I disagree with is the concept that all WB foals should be worth $10,000 because that is what they cost someone to produce.

[Daydream Believer]

It is MORE expensive if you own your own stallion! Then you also have the upkeep and all the costs of keeping a stallion! If you think raising a weanling is expensive, you should try standing a stallion, even if you only use him to breed your own mares.

How do you figure that? My stallion costs me about $1,000 a year to keep like all my other horses. I do some advertising which I make back in Stud fees and I breed my own mares to him. He more than pays his own way.

He also lives out 24/7 and is very happy living with his mares/foals. He eats the same as his mares. He requires no special fencing or care.

He is being campaigned pretty heavy right now for promotion for our breed and we just got back from Kentucky Horse Park on Monday where he was in the Parade of Breeds. :D

[juliab]

I'm not a trainer, so training costs are very expensive for a stallion and most stallions do live separately from other horses. Mine will live happily with a gelding buddy but he injured himself on the fencing (wire squares with a board on top - cut his pastern) and now lives separately until we can afford to re-fence the field. Advertising, even if done modestly is expensive and so is competing. I have to have facilities for visiting mares coming in for live cover and be there for the vet and care for the mare (I only charge $10 per day for mare care and it does not begin to cover it). He eats more than the other horses :) I've got some inquiries for shipped semen so now he'll have to be trained for that. My hubby's time when we do live cover because I can't do it by myself! Etc., etc. :)

[Daydream Believer]

I guess training costs are a big difference for us. I ride and train him myself. I do work with an FEI trainer but I am capable of starting youngsters myself. I also ride him and show him myself. My expectations are not to go to the olympics with him but he's capable of FEI dressage and hopefully we will get there someday. :winkgrin: We did blow some folks away at KY Horse Park last weekend with him and he made me very proud to be his Mom. I'd post pics but I'm afraid I'd be breaking the brag rules then...bummer!

Most of our outside breedings are AI...I had one mare come onto our farm for live cover this year. Again...I board also so I'm set up for it...so not a big deal for me. My day costs are $12.50 a day for a stall and turnout and that covers my costs pretty well. Our part of VA is less expensive than yours land cost wise but if I didn't bring in my hay in bulk, I'd be hurting. The cost of everything is going up so my board prices may have to go up also...there's just no point of operating at a loss...I'd rather be a hobby and work a cushy office job than board horses at a loss...

Training for collection is not cheap but I capitalized it into the cost of my stallion as it added considerable value to him....training should be handled the same way. You eventually do realize all those costs but you depreciate it over a set time...say 7-10 years or whatever you and your accountant decide to do. Sure...it's still cash flow and money out of your pocket but it doesn't have the same effect on the bottom line as if you expense all of it.

[Donella]

Let's also not forget that the large majority of foals priced at ten k and up are sired by frozen semen stallions...and you don't get a discount here if your mare is sps or elite. You also pay btw 900-1500 per dose if you are using the top stallions, and you may likely do this two or three times per season, per mare.
If the foal is not sired by frozen semen, and it is priced around this mark..ie using stallions like Roussaeu, Royal Prince, Liberty Gold, Fabuluex...the real cream of the crop, top liscensced stallions available fresh, then you are looking at a stud fee of AT LEAST 2000..often more, and your discount is usually not more than a few hundred buck..so I have no idea where the 800 came from???
Also, in this breeding cost list, lets not forget she has only factored in the costs for ONE cycle. Most mares don't catch on the first cycle, and so you need to factor in another 1000 bucks per cycle, that is what it costs us up here with shipping, collection and vet fees.

[Equilibrium]

I just thought I would throw in what it cost me to breed my TB mare who went to Iroko.

Stud Fee 950euros
Keep 9 days 45 euros (at stud farm)
Vet fees all in 200 euros
Before hand vet fees appox 150 euros
Feeding 4months, 3 before and one after foal born 420 euros
Feeding before last trimester and until foal weaned 720 euros
Vacs 155 euros
worming 150 euros including foal til weaned
Hay approx 600 euros
Barley Straw for approx 3 months 300 euros

Total 3,690 euros minus 200 off stud fee from previous year when mare not in foal.

So it cost me 3500 euros to get foal to weaning, I'm guessing 5,000 US
My mares don't come in til about a month before foaling. They are blanketed and start coming up to a pen at night starting Nov 1st, with hay.
Mares are in with their foals until about May 1st depending on our weather.

We don't have all the collection costs. Vet fees are sometimes cheaper too. But perhaps this is why people think they are getting a good deal over in Europe. But, why go through all the hassel with the darn shipping back?

I try not to keep them in too much, it just depends on the weather and I think we are much luckier when it comes to grazing. Really we have all year round grass. The quality isn't great in the winter but it is something to eat during the day so we only have to hay at night.

We don't have inspections here so not an issue. But if we did I would go.

Just a comparison. Oh I forgot about 150 euros for the foal for his tests and such and check over. Won't start vacs until he/she is weaned

Terri

[STF]

Our horses stay out too on pastures, but we also bring them in when its 100 degrees, raining or such and take care of them. None of my foals are left to fend for themselves in bad conditions, nor are my pregnant mares. We have to protect our investments.

[GreekDressageQueen]

If you can raise colts so cheaply why are you complaining about how much colts cost, just buy a broodmare and raise your own :rolleyes:

If you were following the previous post "Why should I pay 10k for a weanling" you would already know that I do have a broodmare and raise my own. I even sat down and ran the numbers myself and I still didn't spend more than 5k for each baby. I even board my mare and pay 1500 for the semen. However, I am not in the business of selling nor do I own a breeding farm so yes, my overhead is less and my costs are different compared to others on this BB.

I think we can all agree that everybody's costs will be different. Some on this board spend 10k plus to get each baby on the ground and others pay far less. However, most of the babies I see for sale are priced around the same amount. Seems like you either need a new business plan or move to a cheaper area, otherwise, if you accept breeding horses and losing money as a "labor of love" then expect to give away some of the babies in the "name of love" too. Not every baby is going to recoup your costs and some will pay for two.

[STF]

Maybe the reason for that is because they put too much effort into trying to sell weanlings and yearlings to buyers who don't exist?

Most breeders I know dont have trouble selling their young stock. I guess that is what happens with less elaborate types. :lol:

[STF]

Quite simple, actually:

"The next time someone thinks that a 10K foal produced for the dressage and/or vanity market in an expensive part of the country at an elaborate facility where excess must be accepted ias overhead because it is important to keep up with the Jones' to illustrate that the foal's value is the same if not better than the Jones' is expensive, go look at this:

http://www.spindletopfarm.net/breedingcosts.htm

And then shut your mouth if you are one of we who choose to waste money like this!

:lol:

(And I do realize, STF, that your facility isn't that elaborate, so actually the qualifications I recommend wouldn't actually apply to you, but I do think you are something of an anomaly.)


For one, I dont need to keep up the the Jones. I do my own thing. I dont bend to pressure of the type your talking of.
Two, I dont think you have ever been to our farm, but, I for one am very happy with it.
http://www.spindletopfarm.net/us.htm
We have tons of land for the horses to run on (you can see some of it here, but the pic could not take the whole farm of coarse). We have a nice 10 stall barn and our horses are safe, happy and sound. And, its paid for.....! I could not be happier with it! :D

[STF]

Good work LaNet.

We also can figure big five figure numbers on the performance mares and stallions imported and the 5 figure import fees (vans, air, vans, quarantine, and more vans) to get them to your farm.

Up unitl last month, I was paying $120 per round bale and that was buying them 10 at a time.

The price of corn per bushel is up 65% in May '07 over May '06, so feed costs have risen dramatically.

The excessive rain are keeping the cost of hay up becaue farmers are not gettting the number of cuttings thi year...so it isn't so much better than last year...and again, the corn for gas instead of food is driving the costs up again.

I think anyone who thinks we over-charge for young horses and make out like bandit should just go ahead and buy the airline ticket and go buy in Europe.

Donna Ray
Carson Farm
www.carson-farm.com (http://www.carson-farm.com)


Hay ripped us apart last year and the year before. The drought hurt us bad. My costs went up a lot due to hay and feed costs. Normally the horses do well on the fields with the forage, but I had to throw hay for so long! *sigh*

[carosello]

How do you figure that? My stallion costs me about $1,000 a year to keep like all my other horses. I do some advertising which I make back in Stud fees and I breed my own mares to him. He more than pays his own way.

He also lives out 24/7 and is very happy living with his mares/foals. He eats the same as his mares. He requires no special fencing or care.

He is being campaigned pretty heavy right now for promotion for our breed and we just got back from Kentucky Horse Park on Monday where he was in the Parade of Breeds. :D


OK so how do you keep any horse for a year for a mear 1K???
Do you not include vet costs (shots, breeding/collection), farrier, hay or grain in that total? If your horse is out of state what about shipping costs, stabling, paperwork (coggins, healt certs)?
Just my farrier alone is at least a quarter of that per year per horse and that is for trims.

[STF]

Not every baby is going to recoup your costs and some will pay for two.

Thats my point! Most of them DONT, but others still gripe about paying money for the horses. If they dont want to pay for it, then go breed it themselves and spend their own money. :lol:

[westernrider]

Chiming in....

My hay cost is 100/month per head. More in winter, when it's not supplemented with grass, but it's fully 1200/year/horse. My grain cost is about $50/mo per horse. (more for lactating mares, or growing babies, less for mature horses, easy keepers-- that's an average).

I trim the horses every 5-6 weeks, at 30/visit. I paste worm myself. I do most of the shots myself.

I breed to leading sires, but usually get a "deal" of some sort through a futurity, or as a past breeder, or based on the mare-- so my semen usually costs between $1500-2000. I have easy breeders (knock on wood) and settle on one cycle, often just one dose of semen. This helps keep costs down.

Because my foals are born in North Texas, they need rhoddococcus plasma (two doses, total about $500) along with the normal baby shots and tests.

I do not carry insurance on broodmares or babies and I do most of the work myself. There is an incremental portion of my mortgage and taxes directly attributable to having a barn, acreage etc beyond my house and yard; but I don't count that in. Ditto a cost for the equiptment, storage buildings, carts, buckets, consumable and non consumable supplies. I also consider depreciation and upkeep of the broodmare, and assume 2 foals per 3 years of mare care.

All that said, if I wanted to "break even" I need to sell a weanling for about $6500, yearling for about $9000. This is not a fully loaded cost, so it is still understated. Basically, I breed 10 horses, knowing that I will likely lose money on 6 of them, break even on 3, but the ONE will emerge as my next champion.

Someone suggested it would be less to have your own stallion, and I disagree. Many of my friends are stallion owners-- and it can cost them upwards of $50K per year for promotion, advertising, and fees for standing the stallion. They are spending far more to stand and promote the stallion, than they are saving on breed fees. Early in the stallions career, many invest closer to $100K annually. To me, a stallion that does not have the right breeding, the right credentials, who has proven themselves in the showring and in the breeding shed... is not a sire. And I won't breed to that kind of horse. In my area, a baby by a stallion who's claim to fame is being a son of a leading sire.... is almost unmarketable. I've seen people pass them over, when prices are less than $1000. I've come to think those stallions are too often merely sperm donors, or horses that should have been gelded. People will pay astonishing prices for a truly great horse, but it's harder to get any money at all for an average horse.

[westernrider]

OK so how do you keep any horse for a year for a mear 1K???
Do you not include vet costs (shots, breeding/collection), farrier, hay or grain in that total? If your horse is out of state what about shipping costs, stabling, paperwork (coggins, healt certs)?
Just my farrier alone is at least a quarter of that per year per horse and that is for trims.

Have to agree.

I know my hay cost is higher than most, due to my location (North Texas). For one horse, I spend $1200 in hay (would be more if I did not have good grass for much of the year), $600 in grain. Worming costs about $100 per year, routine shots another $100. Trimming feet another $300. So I am at $2300 before I buy any flyspray, shavings, a brush, a saltblock, or have a visit from the vet for a cut or colic. Add in routine supplies (bandaging supplies, banamine, bute, SMZs, electrolytes, flyspray, wound treatment stuff), an annual coggins test, an occasional winter blanket or halter, and it's pretty easy to figure on about $250/month or $3000/year per horse. Realistically.

[Daydream Believer]

OK so how do you keep any horse for a year for a mear 1K???
Do you not include vet costs (shots, breeding/collection), farrier, hay or grain in that total? If your horse is out of state what about shipping costs, stabling, paperwork (coggins, healt certs)?
Just my farrier alone is at least a quarter of that per year per horse and that is for trims.

Go back and read my earlier post where I laid out my costs and how I keep them down. I do my own trims for 30 horses which is a significant savings, I feed round baled hay that I buy in bulk, my horses live outside, they are healthy and rarely need the vet (a nice change of pace due to having a hardy breed), I do live cover with my own stallion, I pay the vets for IgG tests and one untrasound, I feed small quantities of oats and a good vit/min supplement and my horses stay nice and fat, I buy generic wormers, and worm on a regular basis. I do my own vaccinations annually, I do pay $30 for a coggins per horse a year and health certs only when I need them.

Those were my costs last year...probably they are going up this year with the increases in hay, grain and fuel...but it's probably not adding that much on per horse...a couple hundred each I'd guess at most.

I'm not including show costs or shipping in my number either...just basic care, feeding, vet and direct costs. Indirect costs and overhead push my cost per horse up higher but it's still no where close to 10K a horse....more like $400 more a horse...if that much....spread over the 55 horses on our farm to include boarders and our own.

I'll bet if you ask County, he can keep them even for less as he has a large farm and has lower feed costs than I do.

[Donella]

Maybe the reason for that is because they put too much effort into trying to sell weanlings and yearlings to buyers who don't exist?

I know people who are breeding truly top quality horses ( ie elite/sps mares, top euro stallions ect) and I can assure you they have NO problems selling the weanlings for at least ten k, often more. I also notice that alot of the smaller hano breeders, many of whom post on this board, usually have their foals sold before weaning, and rarely have anything available. TRUE top quality always sells.

[STF]

Maybe the reason for that is because they put too much effort into trying to sell weanlings and yearlings to buyers who don't exist?

I know people who are breeding truly top quality horses ( ie elite/sps mares, top euro stallions ect) and I can assure you they have NO problems selling the weanlings for at least ten k, often more. I also notice that alot of the smaller hano breeders, many of whom post on this board, usually have their foals sold before weaning, and rarely have anything available. TRUE top quality always sells.


:yes:

[pwynnnorman]

I was just looking at your website, STF. Didn't see a lot of high-overhead stuff, like vinyl fencing and washed stone walkways--so I thought not to lump you into that group, 'tis all.

Most breeders I know dont have trouble selling their young stock.

Then you either don't know many breeders or you define reality however you see fit. How did you manage to come to that conclusion having posted on this BB 7380+ times? Just to remind you, here are some of my favorites...

My #1 favorite thread about why breeders are NOT selling babies very much (kept not because it mentions my guy, but because it was started by someone who can't be treated like he's an idiot): http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=100436.

Indeed, what is really cool with that thread is to compare what the same folks posting here said there!

I also particularly like (and so return often to) this thread: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=92623 because it keeps me grounded!

One statement from the aforementioned thread that just rocks me each time I consider it is this one: "This is a hobby for so many people, and it is hard to compete with people who don't need to make any money at this. This is something you don't often see in other businesses. For example, how many people decide to open a car dealership "just for fun", lol."

What an intriguing monkey wrench to throw into this the gears of this rivetting discussion! Wowser, think about it (in a way that probably wasn't the originators intent--I think she meant UNDER-pricing, not over pricing): "Ego says I have to get this much for it, so I'm going to spend whatever it takes to be get it sold that way (or lie about it ;))! I want to sell expensive foals, so even if I lose money doing so, I'm going to!"

Try to wrap your mind around THAT when it comes to the $10K weanling. No way to prove this, but imagine one person sees another pricing this baby with similar breeding this way, and so determines that hers, too, must be worth that much--and so on and so on, even though that first baby may have been priced that way partly because its breeder simply could afford to price it that way (and promote it, it's dam, it's farm, etc., etc.). NOTE: I'm not saying this IS what happens, like, "all" the time. But I suspect it happens sometime, which is why the statement about competing against those who do it as a hobby can really make your head spin if you think about it too much!:D

Meanwhile, there's that article DBs found about demographics and the future of the market. I like this particular piece, even though it's AQHA based, because it's one of those rare ones which establishes a realistic, rather than idealistic, basis for current and future market(s):
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=102925

And then there's this thread, useful for reminding one of how we've acknowledged just how "average" the foals are we usually produce (making genuinely $10K-plus-worthy ones that much more unlikely to be selling in great numbers): http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=37569

And still more threads: http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=32355
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?t=26579

[sunridge1]

The cost of advertising a stallion in no way related to the cost of raising a foal. Again a personal choice, that has no bearing on the quality of said weanling.
Mary

[pwynnnorman]

Maybe the reason for that is because they put too much effort into trying to sell weanlings and yearlings to buyers who don't exist?

I know people who are breeding truly top quality horses ( ie elite/sps mares, top euro stallions ect) and I can assure you they have NO problems selling the weanlings for at least ten k, often more. I also notice that alot of the smaller hano breeders, many of whom post on this board, usually have their foals sold before weaning, and rarely have anything available. TRUE top quality always sells.

Not really. GOOD MARKETING always sells!

[sunridge1]

Not really. GOOD MARKETING always sells!
Ain't that the truth!!!
Mary

[~Freedom~]

True but County isnt breeding warmbloods.



???? They don't eat?

[~Freedom~]

No, they dont. But you cant compare two different breeding operations based upon cost when one is raising 600lb ponies to one that is raising 1700lbs wambloods. Your cost configurations are totally different.
You have to base on the same type, same goals, same sales costs.

Quarter Horses etc = 95 % Horse Market
Your WBs = 05% Horse Market

Need better market or lower prices.

[STF]

The cost of advertising a stallion in no way related to the cost of raising a foal. Again a personal choice, that has no bearing on the quality of said weanling.
Mary


It would be a part of your allocated overhead, mostly if you breed your stalion to your own mares. ;)

[STF]

Quarter Horses etc = 95 % Horse Market
Your WBs = 05% Horse Market

Need better market or lower prices.

I have no problem with our market. I dont agree with .05%, but Im not going to go and try to figure it out. Could care less of the QH markets, so it does nto matter. If you go look at the top breeders in North America with those ol' crappy warmbloods, who are breeding to top proven mares, you will see that they are not having trouble selling.
:D

[YankeeLawyer]

I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.

That's right. Those numbers assume the mare gets in foal on the first try. Would you like to talk about the more than 12K I spent trying to get my top mare in foal this year, and I still don't know if the last round worked? That is in breeding fees alone, btw, and does not count all the other expenses I incurred for her from March to August. Nor the mid-five figure purchase price of Elite mares, etc.

Now, I do agree that just because someone spends $XXX to get a foal on the ground does not necessarily mean that foal will be worth $XXX, let alone more than that. Although I only breed horses that at the very least are capable of producing top quality offspring, the value and price of the baby will ultimately depend on how that individual turns out. But if the foal turns out to be very nice, I don't know how someone can begrudge the breeder for asking $10K (which I find to be low) or more, given the breeder's investment and the fact that said foal should be worth at least triple that by age 3.

[Waterwitch]

How do the Europeans do it? Are they paying less to produce at the same time that their young horses regularly command higher prices on the selling side? How do they manage it? That's what needs to be figured out, it seems.

This is how some of the Europeans do it - they raise the youngstock in groups like we do livestock:

http://www.paardenopfok.com/Opfok.html (http://www.paardenopfok.com/Opfok.html)

I imagine this improves the profit margin.

They also have an export market for their culls that we do not have - ie. North America IS the export market for elite riding horse culls (and there is easy access to a taboo-free horsemeat market for the bottom culls too).

[county]

I really don't see the problem here. If making a profit is the goal and your not doing it then either change your operation so you are or quit breeding. I don't understand the big deal about someone making a lower offer on a horse either I do it all the time I also do it on land I've bought, farms, trucks, cars, alot of things. Just because someone offers less hardly means you have to take that offer.

[county]

Raising livestock in herds is hardly a new concept here in the U.S.

[Waterwitch]

Quite simple, actually:

"The next time someone thinks that a 10K foal produced for the dressage and/or vanity market in an expensive part of the country at an elaborate facility where excess must be accepted ias overhead because it is important to keep up with the Jones' to illustrate that the foal's value is the same if not better than the Jones' is expensive, go look at this:

http://www.spindletopfarm.net/breedingcosts.htm

And then shut your mouth if you are one of we who choose to waste money like this!

:lol:

(And I do realize, STF, that your facility isn't that elaborate, so actually the qualifications I recommend wouldn't actually apply to you, but I do think you are something of an anomaly.)

Pwynn, I am at the point in reading your comments where I am interested to find out what you sell your horses for and what you think is a reasonable amount to pay for youngsters and going horses. Are you giving the good ones away?

[county]

I've asked this before but maybe not directly enough. " Exactly " what is it that cost a great deal more to breed and raise one type horse or breed of horse over another? I'm sure reg. fees are higher then the $25 for a QH but are they $1000's higher? Where " exactly " do these huge differances in costs come from other then personal choices?

[M. O'Connor]

Originally Posted by M. O'Connor
How do the Europeans do it? Are they paying less to produce at the same time that their young horses regularly command higher prices on the selling side? How do they manage it? That's what needs to be figured out, it seems.
This is how some of the Europeans do it - they raise the youngstock in groups like we do livestock:

http://www.paardenopfok.com/Opfok.html

I imagine this improves the profit margin.

They also have an export market for their culls that we do not have - ie. North America IS the export market for elite riding horse culls (and there is easy access to a taboo-free horsemeat market for the bottom culls too).


Thanks, I was beginning to think my posts must be appearing in white text (aka invisible ink). I could swear I keep posting that a horse's value really isn't determined by what it costs the SELLER to keep it/make it up/breed it; it's determined by the BUYERS. If buyers "don't" generally pay what it costs to produce most foals/young horses, pricing them at a that amount (+a profit) because they cost that much to produce doesn't seem to me likely to result in a sale.

Like Tamara figuring out in advance what her hay will need to sell for before they bother to plant it, if you know what it will cost to produce a weanling/young horse and the market for a horse priced that way is weak or limited, you might not bother to breed it if profit is your goal...I honestly don't see the shame in admitting that the velvety nose, cute little ears, or the satisfaction of producing a nice young horse, especially one from a favorite mare (that would be me) is the actual motivation. I would think that if profit could be attained when the youngster produced is exceptional (pwynn, would that be your "windfall?") that would be a source of immense satisfaction, and if it went on to a great performance career and became well known, even a source of pride. But those are hopes and dreams, not facts and figures.

A European friend of mine who is in business here uses the term "ruthless" quite often to describe the attitude of many profitable operations when we are discussing potentially successful equine business models (we're always trying to come up with a reliable one ;) ). The term 'cull' :eek: brings that term to mind...

[graystonefarm]

This is how some of the Europeans do it - they raise the youngstock in groups like we do livestock:

http://www.paardenopfok.com/Opfok.html (http://www.paardenopfok.com/Opfok.html)

I imagine this improves the profit margin.



this is true but have you ever seen them fed? They pour the feed in troughs. The more aggressive ones eat more and the timid one eat far less. I believe this method contributes to their high ODC incidence rate.

[graystonefarm]

What an intriguing monkey wrench to throw into this the gears of this rivetting discussion! Wowser, think about it (in a way that probably wasn't the originators intent--I think she meant UNDER-pricing, not over pricing): "Ego says I have to get this much for it, so I'm going to spend whatever it takes to be get it sold that way (or lie about it ;))! I want to sell expensive foals, so even if I lose money doing so, I'm going to!"




Now that's absurd. It would take a very shallow person to operate like that.

[Hunter_Rider]

Over 10 years ago I bred my TB mare to a nice Hanoverian stallion, when the foal was weaned at 6 months of age, I had over $7500 in the foal. ( He was sold at 3 weeks of age, before weaning) So as far as prices go in todays market, 10K is relatively inexpensive for a fancy (and correct) foal which has great bloodlines. Look at what yearlings are going for these days. Fancy yearlings with no experience in the show ring start at 20K.

[county]

I don't think its absurd at all I see people do it all the time. Theres ranches with decades of history behind them of breeding, showing, and promoting there horses that get one price and people who have been in the business a few years try for the same price just because their horse is bred very similar.

[Waterwitch]

Raising livestock in herds is hardly a new concept here in the U.S.

Not saying it is. I am pointing out this example as these horses are Warmbloods being raised by methods that people in NA would attribute to livestock or stock horse breeders/farmers. And this is probably why their profit margin is better than the typical Warmblood breeder in NA.

[county]

Theres many many horses raised the exact same way right here in the U.S. virtually every QH ranch I know of raises there young stock in herd situations. from birth through life.

[STF]

I really don't see the problem here. If making a profit is the goal and your not doing it then either change your operation so you are or quit breeding. I don't understand the big deal about someone making a lower offer on a horse either I do it all the time I also do it on land I've bought, farms, trucks, cars, alot of things. Just because someone offers less hardly means you have to take that offer.

There is not a problem. If someone can make a profit, then hats off to them. I was just pointing out some very basic costs associated with breeding and why the price on foals are like they are.

[county]

What " exactly ' makes those costs what they are? Is it a rule or a personal choice?

[STF]

What " exactly ' makes those costs what they are? Is it a rule or a personal choice?

A lot of choice on how our horses are handled. Im not ok with my mares being kept in a pasture during bad weather, flooding, storms, or such. We dont live cover for the sake of safety of our stallion and mares. We feed the best foods and hay we can, as I wont eat crap and I dont expect them too. I guess I could be cheaper, but I wont do that to my horses.

Edited to say, most of my horses are out all the time, unless its bad weather. My dark horses come in during bad heat and sun, but most of them stay out in the big pastures with the huge trees, etc. But there are still costs, even with them out, just not as much. Even if I chip away at some of the costs, it will still cost me $6000-6500 to put a foal on the ground.

And some people trust me with in utero foals. They want super care for their lease mare and investment, as expected. They dont want cut corners on care either. As if it was the other way around, I would not either. As I said, we have to protect our investments and my pockets are deep enough to replace my mares, stallions, etc. very fast.

[county]

What one " chooses " to be their cost is totally their choice like I said there is no right or wrong. But I guess I just don't understand ranting about costs that one chooses to have. If ones not happy with them change them.

BTW I don't know of anyone who wants to feed or does feed their horses crap. Can't imagine doing it myself.

[county]

I also have mares here to foal with us and like you ( 4 this year ) the owners want excellant care for their investment. Cut corners? Never we do things exactly the way we feel is best for the animal be it cattle, horses, or sheep. I really couldn't be in the livestock business doing anything less.

[STF]

What one " chooses " to be their cost is totally their choice like I said there is no right or wrong. But I guess I just don't understand ranting about costs that one chooses to have. If ones not happy with them change them.

BTW I don't know of anyone who wants to feed or does feed their horses crap. Can't imagine doing it myself.


Becuase everyone wants to buy a young horse for $3500, if that! Yet they dont want to breed their own, but expect breeders to "give" their money away, by lower prices to fit the buyers needs and pocketbook.

[county]

I want to buy land for $200 an acre like I used to. If an offer is to low just say no I do it all the time. When I buy something if I can get it cheaper then the asking price I sure as hell wiull. I bought land a few years ago for $750 an acre when the asking price was $1200. Sure glad I didn't pay the asking price I saved alot of money.

[graystonefarm]

I don't think its absurd at all I see people do it all the time. Theres ranches with decades of history behind them of breeding, showing, and promoting there horses that get one price and people who have been in the business a few years try for the same price just because their horse is bred very similar.
County, I meant the ego part. ;)

[Tamara in TN]

this is true but have you ever seen them fed? They pour the feed in troughs. The more aggressive ones eat more and the timid one eat far less. I believe this method contributes to their high ODC incidence rate.

this is how my colts are also fed until they are sold....believe it or not...colts that have never been really hungry, really don't fight over the grains....and as long as you don't feed the mare/colt pairs this way they never learn to shove around from their dams.....it really is a peaceful thing to watch....

Tamara in TN

[graystonefarm]

Tamara, I've seen some breeders in Germany feed. they have buckets and pour the grain in. I watched the more aggressive ones not let in the timid ones to eat. I know of a breeder who had a timid foal who became very thin and was much smaller than the others because taht foal was more timid. I don't know. Maybe they had too many in there. I didn't like what I saw though.

My mares all eat different amounts. I have a larger mare with a foal by her side who is difficult to keep weight on. Then I have a 2 year old that eats very little (2 lbs of Progressive a day) and she's slightly overweight.

Personally, I think it's a breeder's job to constantly evaluate the weight and coats of their mares, foals and young horses. When I bring them, I check them over for cuts and scrapes and chips and cracks in hooves.

County mentioned choice. Yes, that is my choice and I personally would not be happy if I did things any other way. Perhaps it's for my own peace of mind but it's what I perfer. I do negotiate when the home is a match made in heaven. I also have the luxury of saying no if I feel that it's not. There has only been one instance when someone has visited in person and did not buy and I'm fairly certain it was because they just wanted to compare my foal to theirs (another breeder whose foal had the same sire). My costs are higher, but I can be proud of my "kids" and it's what works for me.

[Hi Jump]

What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don't need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don't disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren't true for everyone.

PARDON?
These numbers are not even close to being conservative figures for some . This is an extremely conservative estimate that does not account for heartache losses costing tens of thousands of dollars with emergency surgery bills, loss of a valuable mare or foal etc. , and the luxury of having a horse not consuming hay might cost hundreds of thousands of dollars on mortgage on acreage . Breeders that own their own stallion? Well lets see, I have spent around $100,000 on approvals, competition, promotion so I don't think I saved big on not paying a studfee and frankly our vet bills are way higher maintaining top competition stallions, and we pay the same as our clients for collection and inseminations.
Really breeders breed because they have their hearts in it, not for the revenue. We have not looked at the uncountable hours that go into farm and infrastructure maintenance, record keeping, and care of the horses. I am sure I am not even scratching the surface, how about very serious injuries handling horses that cost the owners, there are many costs that are not taken into account here and you quibble about a discount on a studfee?

In North America breeding ventures are hardly run for profit but are rather a passion to breed a wonderful quality horse. If the blood, sweat and tears are all for the dollar we would have a very quiet forum.

Synergy Sport Horses
Breeder, heart and soul!

[Donella]

GOOD MARKETING always sells

If you are a known and respected breeder within a particular community, you really don't need to advertise. We have a few people like that up here, where advertising is not done at all and the foals sell every year before weaning for the prices we are talking about.

On the other hand, if you are new to the whole breeding thing, advertising is obviously going to have to be there.

Either way, marketing will draw the potential buyers, but it won't get you the cheque for the prices we are talking about if the quality is not high , I don't think anyone is going to try and argue that.

[Tamara in TN]

Tamara, I've seen some breeders in Germany feed. they have buckets and pour the grain in. I watched the more aggressive ones not let in the timid ones to eat. I know of a breeder who had a timid foal who became very thin and was much smaller than the others because taht foal was more timid. I don't know. Maybe they had too many in there. I didn't like what I saw though.

.

the key is watching and paying attention...the troughs have to be long and narrow and bellies that are already full of hay to begin with :winkgrin: a 12 foot feeder here feeds 6, 13-22 mo old stallions just fine....and they don't squabble because their needs are met in the hay...but once they leave here they won't have such a choice so I feed grain of some sort....

horses that have every bite regimented into them won't/can't do well this way :no: ....and it is the breeders JOB to make sure everyone gets his share....that comes before his "profit" :yes: but as a feeding style it can be done and done well....

Tamara in TN

[omare]

so the european bred successful hunters and jumpers I see are supppose to be the culls.....? wow...

[county]

Its a very very common way to feed young horses and has been for generations. I feed my mares and foals in groups with no problems the foals when weaned are fed in groups until there get sold. As Tamara said not having horses that are hungary is a big key. No horse here is without hay and or grass 24/7 ever. Our incident of colic is very very rare, 3 cases in the last 20 plus years with 100's of differant horses. The vets all say the two big reasons are 24/7 turn out and 24/7 access to good forage.

[dressage72]

Looking over the figures seems PRETTY darn close AND also makes me wonder what I have gotten into!

I definitely need to hide that bookmark from my husband. :D

[Rubs Not Pats]

A couple of my random observations....

I do foal feet every 2 weeks at $35. I have had almost no problems since doing this and mine are line horses. So that is $70/month. The mares are on a six week schedule.

Hay is $8-12/bale. No we don't have grass and if I did, my irrigation bills would be through the roof. I keep 6 horses at the house and go through two to three bales a day.

I have a lot that I pay taxes on just for the horses, it is 1.17 acres and costs $2100/year, this is not including the $3400 on my primary residence, which also has 1.17 acres and other horses on it.

You all got off easy on the vet bills. I spent close to 16K in breeding and stud fees for two mares in the past 2 years and while one mare is finally prengant, who knows if it will have four legs and two eyes hopefully the legs are straight and it isn't a small, plain , chestnut mare with a bad attitude that cribs or sticks it's toungue out!

Hauling off manure costs me about $300/month, which is less than the bedding $265/25 yard.

Fly spray, I know it sounds petty costs a ton. I would say I usr 4 cans of Pyranna a month...about $40

I get my vaccines for cost through the hospital but my vet gives them. She is kind to me and gives me a discount...bless her, although she does use my processessor for radiographs and I do provide some small animal services.

I just had to get a new trailer, well maybe didn't HAVE too but it does tend to keep bills down...38K

My stall cleaner/morning helper runs about $100/week, not including my vacations, where my housesitter is $50/day for 5-6 weeks but that is not all the horses and that is only for evening feeding stall rotation.

Training. I have the babies worked with with me and another person, figure $20/hour.

OH forgot I feed timothy to the babies $14.95/40lb bale and it lasts a little more than a day.

Ration balancer and suppliments are expensive too. Figure about $150/month.

Insurance is a killer and does require an exam, darn them. Maybe I should be insuring them for more as clearly it isn't costing me $7500 to put this little cutie on the ground.

Did I leave off the cost of feeding my darn open mares? or my retired mares? My bad!

Oh, forgot. If I want to sell them, I need to advertise them.

I do ride my papers including my ISR (you have the price), IHF ($500), USEF, USDF and AHJA. Sometimes even PHR.

hang on, I just figured out how much money I am loosing and need to go throw up!

Does anyone have a nice made hunter for sale in the 75K range, it is starting to sound like a bargain!

[Liz]

Does the exchange rate play any part in why the European breeders are easier able to make money?? The dollar is no doing so well over there....$20,000 U.S. dollars does not have the same buying power in Europe as it does in the U.S. (I am talking in general...not just horses).

I know NOTHING about this subject...I am not a breeder...I was just reading this and had a thought.

[STF]

Dressage72,
Diva in your link in the pics is beautiful!! What is her breeding? Lovely head and type!!

[STF]

I have a lot that I pay taxes on just for the horses, it is 1.17 acres and costs $2100/year, this is not including the $3400 on my primary residence, which also has 1.17 acres and other horses on it.


What about an Ag exemption? Have you looked into that to help you save some $$$?

[STF]

Does the exchange rate play any part in why the European breeders are easier able to make money?? The dollar is no doing so well over there....$20,000 U.S. dollars does not have the same buying power in Europe as it does in the U.S. (I am talking in general...not just horses).

I know NOTHING about this subject...I am not a breeder...I was just reading this and had a thought.


Dont think so. The mid level breeders like a lot of us here are struggling over there too. They are more controlled as well that we are over here too. Some bigger breeders can make a dime here and there, but the thing with business is the more money you make, the more you spend! :lol:

[dressage72]

Thank you STF! She is by De Laurentis out of Deseree who is Dinard L/Landino/Pilot etc etc. I bred her for dressage but if anybody saw today either she REALLY got the jumper lines coming through or she thinks she is a Lipizzan! She practically did an airs above ground all four feet in the air at a stand still! ;)

[STF]

Thank you STF! She is by De Laurentis out of Deseree who is Dinard L/Landino/Pilot etc etc. I bred her for dressage but if anybody saw today either she REALLY got the jumper lines coming through or she thinks she is a Lipizzan! She practically did an airs above ground all four feet in the air at a stand still! ;)

Hey, those will be some spectacular piroettes then!! LOL
Great stallion and very interesting dam line for here in the states. Her pics are elegant too. Lovely cross!!!

[llsc]

I just bred my mare to a little welsh stallion and I thought it wouldn't be too expensive. Stud fee was only $350.00 a few days board...

Well, so far I've spent about $1,750.00 and I figure without any problems I will have $3,000 in the foal by the time it's standing to nurse. I should have just bought a weanling...

[STF]

I should have just bought a weanling...

:lol: :lol:

I was just telling my breeding friends that I wanted to get out of breeding mares all together and would pay to lease on of their mares for custom foals, then they could do all the foal watch and long nights while I slept warmly in my bed! :lol:

[BravAddict]

dressage72...do you really, truly have a mini mare named "Ms. New Booty" and her daughter, "Shanaynay"?

Very cool thread :) Byebye hopes and dreams, haha!

[Hillside H Ranch]

Well, take these comments for what they are worth; I don't have a dog in this fight, as I'm one of those "dreaded" hobby breeders plus I live in the midwest so my costs are significantly lower than they are for a lot of you.
But as far as some of these costs being choices in how we raise our horses I really do think that is true. I had an enormously eye-opening experience in raising warmbloods. My husband has immediate family in Holland and I was super excited to get to spend several days sort of "behind the scenes" at a major, major breeding farm there. Beautiful facility, amazing horses, TOTALLY run like a large agri-business. Sure, the stallions, sales horses and show horses were kept in stalls with some turn-out each day. But pregnant mares and mares with foals were outside in huge, beautiful pastures. They were checked on every day and carefully monitored, but not inside. The most shocking thing to me was how the weanlings/yearlings/youngstock were fed in groups (maybe a couple dozen at a time, divided by age). They were basically allowed to come inside a huge barn, much like a large, modern dairy barn with a central trough running the length of the barn, full of feed (but in the winter full of hay). Everyone ate in a relatively orderly fashion and then were let back out. Most amazing of all-the footing is grooved concrete, no bedding. And in the winter they spend several hours inside eating hay in the same conditions. I was shocked and asked about lameness problems; the response was that these owners felt that the horses were more sound and had stronger legs because of spending so much time on the concrete. And to be honest I didn't see skinny malnourished and bullied youngsters. Now, maybe they do have a very high amount of cripples later down the road. But what is a fact is that they have a high proportion of horses that go onto to show internationally in both dressage and jumping. People around the world come to buy their horses. Would I raise horses like this? Probably not; did the horses seem like they were suffering or at a disadvantage? No. These are serious businessmen though, and they do have an eye on the bottom line while producing an amazing product. Can you imagine the cost of having several hundred young horses stalled for the majority of the day? Astronomical!
So perhaps there is some merit in the idea that some of these high costs are our choice? I never really thought about it that way, but certainly this topic has brought that to the forefront of my mind and perhaps we have no room to complain about the costs when some of them are made by choice? It is our choice to keep trying to breed that mare who just won't get pregnant. It is our choice to use a lot of bedding by keeping our horses in. It is our choice to insure all our stock (I don't actually do that, but a lot of breeders do). I don't know, but this topic has provided me with a lot of food for thought that just never occured to me before.

[sunridge1]

They will probably have less cripples due to the fact they get exercise. And my thought on the weanling that would be undernourished in a herd situation is not a weanling that would make a good show prospect period. Not enough confidence. So the herd figures it out for you. Dem horses are smart.
Mary

[dressage72]

dressage72...do you really, truly have a mini mare named "Ms. New Booty" and her daughter, "Shanaynay"?

Very cool thread :) Byebye hopes and dreams, haha!

I really and truly do!

[camohn]

the key is watching and paying attention...the troughs have to be long and narrow and bellies that are already full of hay to begin with :winkgrin: a 12 foot feeder here feeds 6, 13-22 mo old stallions just fine....and they don't squabble because their needs are met in the hay...but once they leave here they won't have such a choice so I feed grain of some sort....

horses that have every bite regimented into them won't/can't do well this way :no: ....and it is the breeders JOB to make sure everyone gets his share....that comes before his "profit" :yes: but as a feeding style it can be done and done well....

Tamara in TN
I do something similar. In the summer we feed from ground pans BUT there are several more pans than horses lined up all along the fence. For one the horses quicky learn the pecking order and line up accordingly at feeding time. The alpha ones ARE at the head of the line. The passive ones just go to the end of the line. So, there is little squabbling. Everyone has their own bowl. There are also more bowls than horses so as the ones at the beginning begin to shove the next one in line everyone just moves down one. They do play "musical bowls" but everyone eats.

[Rubs Not Pats]

STF,
I have looked into an ag exception and it requires 2.5 acres. I have 2.34. It is very depressing! But thanks for providing some constructive information, I seriously appreciate it, you would be shocked at how many don't know about things like this.

[GreekDressageQueen]

Well, take these comments for what they are worth; I don't have a dog in this fight, as I'm one of those "dreaded" hobby breeders plus I live in the midwest so my costs are significantly lower than they are for a lot of you.
But as far as some of these costs being choices in how we raise our horses I really do think that is true. I had an enormously eye-opening experience in raising warmbloods. My husband has immediate family in Holland and I was super excited to get to spend several days sort of "behind the scenes" at a major, major breeding farm there. Beautiful facility, amazing horses, TOTALLY run like a large agri-business. Sure, the stallions, sales horses and show horses were kept in stalls with some turn-out each day. But pregnant mares and mares with foals were outside in huge, beautiful pastures. They were checked on every day and carefully monitored, but not inside. The most shocking thing to me was how the weanlings/yearlings/youngstock were fed in groups (maybe a couple dozen at a time, divided by age). They were basically allowed to come inside a huge barn, much like a large, modern dairy barn with a central trough running the length of the barn, full of feed (but in the winter full of hay). Everyone ate in a relatively orderly fashion and then were let back out. Most amazing of all-the footing is grooved concrete, no bedding. And in the winter they spend several hours inside eating hay in the same conditions. I was shocked and asked about lameness problems; the response was that these owners felt that the horses were more sound and had stronger legs because of spending so much time on the concrete. And to be honest I didn't see skinny malnourished and bullied youngsters. Now, maybe they do have a very high amount of cripples later down the road. But what is a fact is that they have a high proportion of horses that go onto to show internationally in both dressage and jumping. People around the world come to buy their horses. Would I raise horses like this? Probably not; did the horses seem like they were suffering or at a disadvantage? No. These are serious businessmen though, and they do have an eye on the bottom line while producing an amazing product. Can you imagine the cost of having several hundred young horses stalled for the majority of the day? Astronomical!
So perhaps there is some merit in the idea that some of these high costs are our choice? I never really thought about it that way, but certainly this topic has brought that to the forefront of my mind and perhaps we have no room to complain about the costs when some of them are made by choice? It is our choice to keep trying to breed that mare who just won't get pregnant. It is our choice to use a lot of bedding by keeping our horses in. It is our choice to insure all our stock (I don't actually do that, but a lot of breeders do). I don't know, but this topic has provided me with a lot of food for thought that just never occured to me before.

Well said. :yes::yes:

[Silver Bells]

I am really glad that ALL of you are so passionate, persistent, and consciencious about your horses and programs. I love the diversity and the difference in opinions! :cool:

[Daydream Believer]

I really do think choice is a lot of it. I used to pamper my horses and bring them in a lot...if it was too hot or too cold...and then I visited a Wyoming ranch where the horses winter out without so much as a windbreak eating hay and what grass they can find. Yes, some are too thin and the horses were not all in perfect condition...but the message I took from that was that horses are a hell of a lot tougher than I gave them credit to be. The horses there live a long healthy life if they are fed well as old horses and my stallion's sire lived to be 31..he was never in a barn one day of his life.

So, I started to change how I did things as I got more horses of my own and stopped pampering them so much. I have very few problems and they are sound and healthy. I do have a couple who have gotten too fat on oat hay and am having to adjust for that now...but normally I would not feed that much of that kind of hay...thank you drought...will be getting in some better grass hay soon.

I feed in pans on the ground..one per horse...and inevitably they shift from pan to pan or share with their friends. No one is chased off and not allowed to eat. I also only grain once a day for a number of my horses and hay/grass makes up the majority of their diet. Mares and foals do get grained twice a day...small amounts and mostly for a check to make sure all is well with everyone and to give me a chance to play with the foals.

I now have client mares/foals living out the same way as my own now and those babies are so much happier and healthier now. The client foals that were in daily all had diarhea at some point where my foals never got it. Once we turned them out, the diarhea cleared up. Their owner remarks constantly when she comes to visit how much happier they seem. Even their foot quality has improved with the additional exercise and I know it has to be so much better for their joints and development as well.

I am also stunned when I see what some folks will spend to get a mare in foal. Unbelievable...no thanks...not for me. I'd never get it back out of the foal so a mare that does not settle easily would not work for me at all.

[okggo]

I admit I haven't read all the replies, but here is the flip side:
Why does a BUYER purchase said 10,000 foal? Do you know anyone who would say they purchased a horse for 10k b/c the breeder fed it alfalfa, kept it in a box stall with shavings, etc. OR would they say, the foal had the pedigree, conformation, and talent I was looking for? I don't disagree with a 10k price tag per say, IF the horse is worth it. Period. If somebody is spending 8k to breed a horse that is only worth 4k and then trying to market it as 10k to recoup the costs to feed it, and thinks that this makes sense???? Really??

Maybe it costs that much or more to breed that foal, but for the buyers out there, that foal sure as heck better be worth it in lineage, conformation, etc. to make the purchase appeal to them.

And if people are asking 10k JUST based on "breeding costs" they really need to rethink their job. JMHO.

Now, I'm not saying anyone here falls into that catagory, but by arguing that YOU buyer MUST pay ME seller 10k for this foal b/c it cost ME 10k to breed it, you just lose some credibility as a seller. Just what are you marketing? A quality foal, or basic food and shelter you gave it?

[camohn]

I admit I haven't read all the replies, but here is the flip side:
Why does a BUYER purchase said 10,000 foal? Do you know anyone who would say they purchased a horse for 10k b/c the breeder fed it alfalfa, kept it in a box stall with shavings, etc. OR would they say, the foal had the pedigree, conformation, and talent I was looking for? I don't disagree with a 10k price tag per say, IF the horse is worth it. Period. If somebody is spending 8k to breed a horse that is only worth 4k and then trying to market it as 10k to recoup the costs to feed it, and thinks that this makes sense???? Really??

Maybe it costs that much or more to breed that foal, but for the buyers out there, that foal sure as heck better be worth it in lineage, conformation, etc. to make the purchase appeal to them.

And if people are asking 10k JUST based on "breeding costs" they really need to rethink their job. JMHO.

Now, I'm not saying anyone here falls into that catagory, but by arguing that YOU buyer MUST pay ME seller 10k for this foal b/c it cost ME 10k to breed it, you just lose some credibility as a seller. Just what are you marketing? A quality foal, or basic food and shelter you gave it?


I don't think too many of us here do that as in a previous post it was asked "how many of you make money breeding horses" and most of us voted we did not. FWIW my 5 figure foal that I bought had been mostly field boarded for the previous year.

[STF]

And if people are asking 10k JUST based on "breeding costs" they really need to rethink their job. JMHO.

Now, I'm not saying anyone here falls into that catagory, but by arguing that YOU buyer MUST pay ME seller 10k for this foal b/c it cost ME 10k to breed it, you just lose some credibility as a seller. Just what are you marketing? A quality foal, or basic food and shelter you gave it?

I was addressing the thread that was started earlier in the week where breeders were trying to explain why foals cost so much. Dont dwell on the 10K about, its just a number thrown out there for explination purpose. Go read the other thread and you will understand.

[county]

Foals cost exactly what someone is willing to pay for them regardless of what breed they are or how much it cost someone to put it on the ground. If a breeder knows going in that they can't sell for their expenses why would they complain if a buyer won't pay what they want? Theres really no mystery in any of this.

[STF]

Country, in the bloodlines some of us look for, quality and bloodlines are very important. As I stated in a another thread, two yrs ago I was looking for a young filly with top of the line blood on the sire and dam side and most were already sold or in the 12-15K price range. I only had 10K to spend that year. Quality does sell, isnt that what your signautre line even says?

[county]

STF I agree with you 100% I spent 4 years looking for exactly what I wanted when I bought one of my stallions. But I don't see what your point is?

[Tamara in TN]

Now, I'm not saying anyone here falls into that catagory, but by arguing that YOU buyer MUST pay ME seller 10k for this foal b/c it cost ME 10k to breed it, you just lose some credibility as a seller. Just what are you marketing? A quality foal, or basic food and shelter you gave it?

this is the difference in a hobbist and a business...I have not deducted expense one my horses in about 10 years...maybe 8....there is no need to...hay farming is my business and horses are my hobby....:winkgrin:


as to folks keeping mares out...my vets dad is big into cattle horses....2 years back he dropped $75K on a embryo transplant mare....when asked where she was he said...."in that field with the rest of them...if she can't live like a horse, she needs to live somewheres else" she's just peachy making him money today...

Tamara in TN

[camohn]

To me it works like this: if the foal does not sell as a baby it MAY not be a pricing issue. There really is a limited market for folks that have the farm/desire to raise and train a baby. If you can sell a baby great, though. If the horses are still collecting once they get to riding age (3 and up) and you have a lot bigger market of potential buyers (the boarding stable contingent) you probably have a marketing/pricing issue if no one is at least making inquiries.

[STF]

STF I agree with you 100% I spent 4 years looking for exactly what I wanted when I bought one of my stallions. But I don't see what your point is?


My point is good quality sells for what its worth and 10K is really a low price for really good quality in the top line sporthorses breeders world.

[county]

Thats always been the way we raise horses here the one I paid $25,000 for is treated, housed, and fed exactly like the one I paid $100 for. I don't regard one animal as more important or better then another when it comes to their health and well being.

[STF]

To me it works like this: if the foal does not sell as a baby it MAY not be a pricing issue. There really is a limited market for folks that have the farm/desire to raise and train a baby. If you can sell a baby great, though. If the horses are still collecting once they get to riding age (3 and up) and you have a lot bigger market of potential buyers (the boarding stable contingent) you probably have a marketing/pricing issue if no one is at least making inquiries.

EXACTLY!!! My feelings too!
Everything I breed now, I have a "B" plan to keep till they are 3 and start. I make sure I have the room and time, etc. If the "A" plan happens and they sell before then, then super, if not - Im ok with it too. The day I cant start babies and such, Im done with it thou.

[STF]

Thats always been the way we raise horses here the one I paid $25,000 for is treated, housed, and fed exactly like the one I paid $100 for. I don't regard one animal as more important or better then another when it comes to their health and well being.


Where did that come from??????
We were talking about cost/market of foals, not overall care?

[county]

STF I've never in any way said your foals or any foal should not sell for $10K. I'm saying what a horse is worth to one may not be to another and theres no reason it should be. And if you sell for $10K and lose money or $2000 and make money which is better? If I'm doing it as a business I want to sell a truck load of those $2000 foals and not even one of those $10K foals. If its a hobby I really don't care but I sure wouldn't get upset over it.

[county]

STF I was referring to Tamaras post about care

[STF]

STF I've never in any way said your foals or any foal should not sell for $10K. I'm saying what a horse is worth to one may not be to another and theres no reason it should be. And if you sell for $10K and lose money or $2000 and make money which is better? If I'm doing it as a business I want to sell a truck load of those $2000 foals and not even one of those $10K foals. If its a hobby I really don't care but I sure wouldn't get upset over it.

Im not upset! LOL I dont get upset over internet discussions! ;) Turst me, I laugh alot.

[STF]

STF I was referring to Tamaras post about care

Opps, my bad!:cool:

[Dutch]

Why does a BUYER purchase said 10,000 foal? Do you know anyone who would say they purchased a horse for 10k b/c the breeder fed it alfalfa, kept it in a box stall with shavings, etc. OR would they say, the foal had the pedigree, conformation, and talent I was looking for?

I totally agree. My foals are priced over $10K, but they have all been First Premium and often "Top Ten" in North America. The mares are predicated and proven producers. The older offspring have gone on to compete successfully in sport. And yes, my prices are met. Having been to Europe and seen what's on the ground there, I have no doubt my guys would sell for considerably more if they were there.

Oh, and I paid more than 10k for my 12 year-old foundation mare as a 2 year-old who was (shudder) out of an "Approved" thoroughbred dam (when they were still being inspected by the NA/WPN). She is an import - from the US. Buying that mare was one of the smartest moves I ever made. She's now keur preferent with seven outstanding offspring to date.

[county]

I do to especially when I read what people think they have to spend on raising horses.

[Silver Bells]

Foals cost exactly what someone is willing to pay for them regardless of what breed they are or how much it cost someone to put it on the ground.

Finally after how many posts on this thread...:confused: I hate to say it but, this is FACT! :yes:

[Home Again Farm]

If somebody is spending 8k to breed a horse that is only worth 4k and then trying to market it as 10k to recoup the costs to feed it, and thinks that this makes sense???? Really??

Maybe it costs that much or more to breed that foal, but for the buyers out there, that foal sure as heck better be worth it in lineage, conformation, etc. to make the purchase appeal to them.

And if people are asking 10k JUST based on "breeding costs" they really need to rethink their job. JMHO.

Now, I'm not saying anyone here falls into that catagory, but by arguing that YOU buyer MUST pay ME seller 10k for this foal b/c it cost ME 10k to breed it, you just lose some credibility as a seller. Just what are you marketing? A quality foal, or basic food and shelter you gave it?

okkgo,

I agree with you totally on this. Well said.

[pwynnnorman]

Pwynn, I am at the point in reading your comments where I am interested to find out what you sell your horses for and what you think is a reasonable amount to pay for youngsters and going horses. Are you giving the good ones away?

Yup, sometimes--whatever moves my business forward is what I've done. To sell well, you must invest one of two things: MONEY ('struth: it takes money to make money) or TIME (which could be considered long-term money). I've had no real money, so it has indeed taken me TIME.

Here's the story (took me over half an hour to write it!)...

I've said many times over my years on these BBs that I'm in this for the long haul and, as a result, 1.) recognize and accept my advantages and disadvantages, 2.) don't try to change the world I'm in and how it perceives and operates, and thus 3.) am following a plan that I believe will work within that world. Am I there yet? Juuuust about. (I've made a profit in one year and have come oh-so-depressingly close in two others--but mainly by keeping my overhead low (I lived in a shack for $200 per month at one point, in a $600 RV at another, an $1800 single wide at yet another and have never--in my whole life--owned or leased a facility with more than one paddock that had board fencing).

Today, I have a barn full of drop-dead gorgeous, talented, superior beasties, but, alas, as I've said on this thread already, "quality does NOT always sell." Good marketing does. And I, like so many, am not yet there when it comes to selling and prices. Good marketing is expensive--if you are realistic and honest about it. And also, as with sooooo many of us, I could have been, had things gone my way with three horses I had targeted as windfalls (because they would have paid a lot off, making it possible for me afford better and better marketing).

As I've said, windfalls are at the heart of my make-a-profit business plan, which the IRS will see if they ever come knocking again (I've been audited once already). What happened to the three? One died, one is Teddy who I could have sold for a huge sum but chose to basically give away to the sport of eventing (I'd love it if someone asked me what I mean by that), and the third ill health forced me to lease out before the FL circuit she would have sold extremely well on.

As to the actual answer to your question, what do I sell them for? First, the two biggie no-sales: Colin, who is not on my website because he's a horse, I turned down $60K for (multiple BNT-praised jumper and made FEI level dressage schoolmaster--he was 7 at the time he was professionally appraised). I turned down that price on Col early in my business because I knew I would always need to have on hand a horse I could use to walk into a barn or show with and be taken seriously. Colin, now age 17, was the Mercedes that got my fat, black butt through many posh doors in spite of the rusty old rig I drove up in); and before he was famous (pre-Karen O'Connor) I turned down $40K for Teddy simply because I thought he was worth more (and was right).

Now, the ones that have kept the biz afloat and progressing: two of Colin's full siblings sold for low fives as four-year-olds (full TBs, no show records); I've sold four, four-year-olds (ponies, three--unbelievably!--13.3h and one 14.0 hands: the measurement issue that can prevent ponies from selling well...and yes, I culled the mare that produced most of them) for $5000; a couple three-year-olds for $3000 (yup, OUCH, and one was really talented, but I had bills to pay--I'd buy him back now, if I could) and three more for $6500 (much more like it, since most were produced and raised for @ $1000 per year--thanks to doing my own vet and farrier work, making stud fee deals, owning my own stallions, and being a good carpenter).

I've only ever sold one two-year-old (maybe due to the terrible two-sies, but probably because I just have never really tried to sell any babies at all). She had me dancing in the streets when her butt went out the door for $5000 in the middle of February. I sold a small yearling for $2200, a large yearling for $7500 (but he's exceptional), a yearling horse filly for $3000 (but I had to sue the buyer to get my money), a couple of culled broodmares for $5000, and maybe half-a-dozen (over the years) outright culls for under $1000, usually at one year old or less (two "dwarfs" as weanlings at $600, three yearling fillies who were plain looking and nasty and so, IMO, not worth struggling with--two ended up unbreakable by their new owners, one just missed qualifying her rider for the Maclay at only five years old--Nope, I've not always made the right judgment!).

I gave away a foal that was down in the heels and had a damaged eye I felt wasn't worth paying to repair. Four offspring out of my best mare (Teddy's mom--the four were full sibs) have died (two accidents, two MRLS) and so never helped the biz as they should have (a fifth I culled, one of the aforementioned fillies who could never be broke to ride--last I heard, they were still driving her...remember, I intentionally breed some "hot" ponies and some have crossed the line from hot to crazy, quite frankly!). I sold two yearlings at sales, the cheapest of which went on to become a national champion, the other, which also didn't bring much (I don't remember the actual sums for either: under $2500), a WEF champion. I sold a half-sibling to Colin in utero for $2400, but that included 7 months of mare care (pasture board in Michigan). I sold another in utero for a similar sum (actually, I think that was under $2k)--both foals were "keep the mare pregnant" throwaways during times when I couldn't arrange to breed to better stallions. Both nevertheless became winners (although not blue blooded, I have had good mares because I, like many buyers, can recognize a nice mare without an inspector, pedigree or price tag to tell me she's a nice mare).

I've never had anything over the age of five for sale, except Teddy (he's six figures, obviously), the one full sister of his (who was five-figures before I leased her), and a bunch of horses I did not breed but owned for a variety of reasons (companion mares for my stallion, mostly). I've probably forgotten a few here and there in this compilation.

Now, let's go a bit further with this, as I have in my records and would trot out to the IRS. I'm doing this because I think it will be instructive (good, bad or indifferent--how often do you get to see this out there?). I've sold @$115,000 worth of horse flesh in @ 12 years. Not much, by a lot of folks standards, and only one year of profit. But look deeper into the "windfall" business plan, OK. That sum comes out to about $10,000 per year in income on average. Again on average, my biz expenses have been between $20-25,000 per year, year after year, except for 18 months between 2005 and the end of 2006 (the original Teddy and Karen period).

So, if you use those averages, my business has lost between $120-160K roughly since its existance (since I did have quite a few years at closer to $20K, Teddy's 18 months of hyper-expense are kind of absorbed there--again, roughly!). Meanwhile, the IRS expects you to not only make a profit, but ALSO recoup your losses...

NOW do you see why I believe in the windfall and why all of my business decisions about who to sell, who to keep, and how to promote them and the business are based on producing windfalls? Given what ONE exceptional horse can do (like, had I sold Teddy rather than syndicated him--he is syndicating for a MUCH, MUCH lower price than his actual value, BTW...or had I sold Colin, back when my losses were much closer to his value at the time), can you see why I always argue that what makes sense is to TRY? Why it is just plain WRONG, in my opinion, for any of us lowly breeders to believe we'll never possibly produce a horse worth six figures? Why can't we?

We just have to TRY, folks! That's all the IRS really wants: genuine effort to make a profit. If you don't, but can show you are truly trying, you'll be OK (as is my understanding of it). IMO, "trying" is the best biz plan of all because setting high goals, even when you only have lowly resources, still forces you to really, truly improve your herd based on objective market facts, not your personal preferences or perceptions--perhaps our biggest collective problem. For example, I think white markings are gaudy, but there's a LOT more white markings in my herd these days. And I really hate a lot about the hunter industry, but I'm still keeping up with and selling to it.

We (little guys) have to resist selling ourselves short and because we are little guys, we also have to be ruthless in assessing what we have (past factors), what we are capable of doing with it (present factors) and how we can increase the value of what we create in the future. That's the ONLY philosophy that makes sense for we breeders who can't take advantage of those two, most important business axioms: "It takes money to make money," and "Location, location, location."

[Hey, now that was an interesting experience for me--writing all that out for public consumption. I hope someone finds it interesting. :D]

[Hillside H Ranch]

PWynn- I, for one, truly thank you for taking the time to throw that out there. Food for thought IMHO.

[au_panda]

Foals are WORTH whatever a buyer is willing to pay for them. They COST whatever they cost to produce.

STF's list which started this thread lays out what it might typically cost her to produce a foal - it does not lay out the foals worth.

As to all the discussion of business models and choices, hopefully a breeder raises foals to meet the demands of their market which differ greatly between a ranch/trail horse, a dressage prospect and a conformation hunter prospect and prices in these markets differ.

Conformation hunter prospect; typically shown in-hand through age 3, cannot have splints, bumps on tendons, better if minimal scarring on any body part. Show experience is a significant cost which the breeder hopes to recoup in the eventual sales price. This prospect is not thrown out in a field with buddies. Maybe it gets a field of its own next to buddies. Special feeding programs, lots of handling etc. so here's that dreaded word, lots of costs. The hope is that a successful prospect sells for market price, which in this particular market, can be quite high. The risks are huge. Maybe it's got perfect conformation, beautiful movement and a spectacular jump that only a professional can ride. Two attributes that add to the market value (worth) one that detracts - horses that only a pro can ride are not very useful to an amateur.

The point is breeding is a complex business and there are many different markets people are trying to address with their breeding programs and not many generalities that apply to the business of breeding.

[frugalannie]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Pwynn. That was instructive, enjoyable (if sobering) and a real reality check.

I guess that part of what it takes to be a good breeder is love of horses (I'm including ponies, here), the knowledge to understand the steps to achieve your vision, and the hard-headed business sense to implement what's necessary to get there.

[Auventera Two]

When I buy a horse, I don't give a darn what you shoveled into it for feed and shavings costs. I care what that horse is worth to ME. And if it's not worth it to me, I won't pay it. As someone else said, I don't care two rats fannies about paying for your food and shelter costs. I don't care if that mare slept on silk threads for bedding and slurped up caviarre for 11 months. If that baby isn't worth 10K to me, then I'm not paying it. Period. You can find another buyer who will. More power to ya.

I paid $1,000 for my endurance horse. Lovely mare, great mind and athleticism, fantastic breeding, personality galore, and excellent conformation. One time I had someone meet me on the trail and ask if she was an Akhal Teke. I laughed and said, why, does she look like one? The lady said, oh my gosh, she looks like a 50 thousand dollar import! :eek: Um, nope. She's a 1K Arab, local bred.

I guarantee you that breeder had more than a grand into that baby at weaning time. But when I looked at her, she was wormy and disgusting and it would take me a full 4 years of waiting before I could compete her. So to me, she was worth a thousand bucks and no more. That's just me. I saw the ad for her, went to see her, and offered them less than what they were asking, but what I was willing to pay. They gladly accepted the offer and I had my horse.

Lovely mare with tons of talent and hopefully many good competition years for me. A thousand dollars. I've said this before on other threads, but I'll never pay 10K for a horse. If some people want to, that's just fine. Everybody can make their own decisions. I'm not jealous or angry about it, I just don't see any need to. :D :)

[Equilibrium]

Getting Back to the raising horses like livestock in Europe.

We have converted a big cow barn into two sides. One for colts one for fillies. Both open up to all weather pen areas. They come in at night all winter. I make sure bully's don't take food away from a shy eater and it all works fine. A big round bale of straw. Mucking is easier, much easier, bedding is lower and the babies are very happy. They are in from the endless wet and if we don't want to poach fields in the really bad wet spells, they have an area to go to for fresh air and exercise. It cuts down costs and labor and gets them out of harsh weather. They don't have to have a stable to be comfy, happy, warm, and dry. I try and keep everything out as much as possible barring the ones being ridden. Turnout rugs are money well spent in comparisons to keeping a mare in for months on end. As we do all our own work, labor has to be cut to make things run smooth. This does not mean horses are not looked after but you can cut costs and still have horses well looked after. As long as I don't have anything wallowing around in 6ft of mud during the winter, I'm happy and so are they.

Terri

[juliab]

What people need to understand is that just as a buyer is free to offer whatever they wish for a horse, the seller is also free to ask what they wish for a horse. The buyer may not get the horse for their offer and the seller may not be able to sell the horse, but all this indignation over horse prices is just silly. As a seller, I don't want to listen to a lecture on the points of my horse and why the buyer thinks it is worth so much less and in turn, I won't lecture a buyer over why I think their offer is ludicrous. Just say "no thanks" and walk away. I've said it before but it is worth repeating: A horse's price is determined by how badly the buyer wants to buy and how badly the seller wants to sell at the time of the sale.

[diamondgirl]

Pwynn, I've looked at your website and I see mostly grade ponies which makes sense to me as to why you would not even think of paying $10,000 for a weanling. You're comparing apples to oranges.

This is beginning to become redundant.

I think we all agree that not all weanlings are worth $10,000+ even with the same pedigree as another that sold at that price.

Buyers expect to see a quality youngster before they will pay that premium price, no matter how much it cost the breeder to get it on the ground and raise it.

I was recently shopping for a new show horse. Everything that I felt was quality was in the $40,000 and up price range for a 3 year old. It only make sense to me that a rider who wants a quality competitive horse and doesn't have $40,000 to spend, will need to buy a quality weanling in the $10,000 range. If they are nervous about investing money on a youngster, then they should get mortality and medical insurance on the baby.

If a buyer doesn't want to spend $10,000 on a weanling, then move on to the next horse and find one that you can afford. How does that saying go? .... Champaigne taste on a beer budget?

[pwynnnorman]

Pwynn, I've looked at your website and I see mostly grade ponies which makes sense to me as to why you would not even think of paying $10,000 for a weanling. You're comparing apples to oranges.

Oh, nonsense, diamondgirl. You are only seeing what you want to see. All of my sportponies are at least half TB--most are 3/4. There's just no registry for them (actually, Teddy's mom is registered with the American Remount Association, but who cares--which is why I haven't registered any of the other 1/2 TB broodmares I've had) and as I've said for years, I don't think the current WB registries offer enough for my business to make it worth my while going through the trouble and expense to have them registered via inspection (or even going a performance route). All of the remaining (hunter) ponies are registered either half or full welsh. Moreover, even my foundation mare was registered, as was my foundation stallion and all of the outside stallions I've bred to.

But if you want to continue to be selectively perceptive, be my guest! :D

[juliab]

Oh, nonsense, diamondgirl. You are only seeing what you want to see. All of my ponies are at least half TB--most are 3/4. There's just no registry for them (actually, Teddy's mom is registered with the American Remount Association, but who cares--which is why I haven't registered any of the other 1/2 TB broodmares I've had) and as I've said for years, I don't think the current WB registries offer enough for my business to make it worth my while going through the trouble and expense to have them registered via inspection (or even going a performance route). All of the remaining ponies are registered either half or full welsh. Moreover, even my foundation mare was registered, as was my foundation stallion and all of the outside stallions I've bred to.

But if you want to continue to be selectively perceptive, be my guest! :D

Absolutely :) I can't get over some of the thinking on this BB. You have a breeding program that created a champion eventer, but according to some people, he is still just a "grade pony"! You just got lucky according to them because Teddy is not a WB, so he must be just a fluke. The stars just magically aligned and some TBs and others got together and actually managed to produce a champion sporthorse. Who'd have thunk it! I'll bet you've had quite a few other really good horses come out of your program too. Good grief!

Congratulations on Teddy, btw - he makes me feel good every time I hear him mentioned or see his pic :)

[Dalemma]

Well with out reading this entire thread.........I think the costing has some errors in it.........or at the very least my expenses would differ.....maybe due in part to where I live

the hay cost is bang on with what I would have to pay.

the grain cost is high.........I would only spend $20.00 per month

Shavings I would pay $350.00 for a load of which I only need 1 and that gets divided by the number of horses I have which is 8 so monthly that converts to......thats $3.60 per horse per month..........so that is $57.60 for shavings for 16 months

My farrier costs are $35.00 for a trim of which I do on an average 6 to 8 weeks.......so for 16 months of the mare that is 8 times and for the foal that would be 3 times......so 11 times $35.00 is $385.00 so close.

I actually think regular vet costs are low..........I think mine are closer to $500.00

There is no way each of my horses consumes $7.00 of water each a month.....we are on our own well so I would lump this into electrical......mine for the barn (we have a separate meter) is about $50.00 every two months.
Divided by eight horses.......is $50.00 for each horse for the 16 months.

Farm insurance is about $500.00 a year..........so cost that out over 8 horses and it works out to $83.00 for the 16 month period.

I can't comment of farm labor as I do everything myself........but I think for each horse it is high.

The breeding end looks bang on

So if you do the math I have $4,447.00 less of an expense to raise the foal to weaning based on my operating costs per month, per horse.

Dalemms

[not again]

The success of any breeding program has plenty of sweat equity, serious decisions and occasional luck. Prices are based on desirable qualities and type for purpose, not just fashionable pedigree. I understand avoiding the politics of registries, but hope that a paper trail and dna verification follows my young stock when they leave the driveway. The comraderie and serious discussions about heritable traits with my registry friends goes way beyond the paperwork. Kudos to those who can go it alone! It gets lonely out there. And to Teddy and his family, congratulations--it is very exciting to breed a national and international champion!!

[diamondgirl]

Oh, nonsense, diamondgirl. You are only seeing what you want to see.

I consider those grade horses. Again, you are comparing apples to oranges.

With the cost of board, training, farrier and vet, I wouldn't take one of those for free. I believe the OP was referring to fancy WB's bred for dressage competition.

[STF]

What people need to understand is that just as a buyer is free to offer whatever they wish for a horse, the seller is also free to ask what they wish for a horse. The buyer may not get the horse for their offer and the seller may not be able to sell the horse, but all this indignation over horse prices is just silly. As a seller, I don't want to listen to a lecture on the points of my horse and why the buyer thinks it is worth so much less and in turn, I won't lecture a buyer over why I think their offer is ludicrous. Just say "no thanks" and walk away. I've said it before but it is worth repeating: A horse's price is determined by how badly the buyer wants to buy and how badly the seller wants to sell at the time of the sale.


THANK YOU!
The part everyone has totally misunderstood....... :mad: is that I was pointing out why so many breeders have a price tag on their foals that they do. Not saying that is what the foal is worth, or hell - it may be worth MORE than that. I dont know, but the point is, breeding is expensive and dont belittle breeders for their efforts. If you dont like what you see, go buy your own broodmares and breed your own and drop you OWN money into it.

[westernrider]

It occurs to me, that the cost of raising a baby varies dramatically based on numerous factors. Some of those factors (in uterio and early nutrition, choice of better mare, better stallion) probably affect the quality and value of the resulting offspring. Other factors (choice of shavings vs living outside, some labor intensive practices, etc) probably do not affect the foal's value at all. Still other factors just "are what they are"-- ie one person inherited 100 acres of great pasture with a barn on it, while another struggles to pay the mortgage and taxes on a tiny ranchette.

Then, beyond all those factors, there is pure luck. Sometimes you breed two great horses, and get a puke. Sometimes you breed two pukes and get a great one.

The next layer of complexity is whether or not you find potential buyers who can tell the difference between the great one, and the puke. I've seen people spend laughable amounts of money on a puke based on it coming from a big name breeder and great parents. I've seen people have the eye and discernment to buy a "no name" baby, for very cheap-- and go on to make it a champion.

I carefully track my expenses, and know what I have in each of my horses. I think it's important to know this. But I don't price my horses based on this. I evaluate them as individuals, against the competition and the market, and that determines my price. I have one for sale now that is quite nice-- but he did try pretty hard to kill himself as a baby, and I have lots of vet bills invested. He is not priced to recoup the vet bills-- that was just my bad luck, it has no bearing on his value. His price reflects his conformation, disposition, and movement-- not whether I paid too many vet bills, or picked his stall with a gold plated pitchfork or gave him only bottled water to drink or overpaid for his momma.

I guess I'm just trying to illustrate that the COST is pretty much seperate and distinct from the WORTH of a particular horse. As a breeder, if I consistently spend more to produce horses than they are WORTH-- well, I'm not doing a very good job. I need to change my program. I evaluated my babies, and I do compare the worth/selling price to the cost, because on average and over time, if I am doing a competent job, I should be spending less than I recoup. If I can't, I need to tweak my program or do something else.

I've bought and sold horses ranging from $400 to $75,000. There was not a single time that what I'd pay, or what I'd take for the horse, was based on a cost model. It was based on what the horse was worth in the market.

[STF]

Im still waiting for some of the experts to show me where I can find a foal out of a top grade Hano mare (Elite/SPS) by one of the top/proven stallions for less than 10K?

Me thinks its time some people do some of their own market studies!

[STF]

PS - when you do market studies, you have to compare like to like.
You cant compare a QH/Pony cross with a Prem. Hanovierian or type colt. Its impossible. That is the point I dont think a lot of you see.
Like I have said over and over, many of you are arguing apples to oranges.
I find it funny that the people who have the most problem with this thread are the NON Warmblood breeders too and even some that make a point to let other know they dont even like WB breeds. Go figure?!?!

[Daydream Believer]

I consider those grade horses. Again, you are comparing apples to oranges.

With the cost of board, training, farrier and vet, I wouldn't take one of those for free. I believe the OP was referring to fancy WB's bred for dressage competition.


Wynn...you can give any one of yours anyday! giggle. I think this poster is clueless as to the success of your breeding program of "grade" horses! LOL!

diamondgirl...one of Wynn's "grade" ponies just won double gold at the Pan am games. I would think she would have a waiting list right now for her ponies!

[diamondgirl]

DB, I knew that. I honestly believe it to be a fluke. Repeat that same cross and I guarantee it wouldn't happen again.

[STF]

Again the ones who are getting so upset over this are not even WB breeders. They are not even in the business, but have a whole lot to say about it. :lol:

[diamondgirl]

I wanted to add that this is JMOHO. I personally hate ponies. Yes, they can be cute, but I hate riding them. I don't care how successful a pony is/was. They are not my cup of tea.

[PineTreeFarm]

PS - when you do market studies, you have to compare like to like.
You cant compare a QH/Pony cross with a Prem. Hanovierian or type colt. Its impossible. That is the point I dont think a lot of you see.
Like I have said over and over, many of you are arguing apples to oranges.
I find it funny that the people who have the most problem with this thread are the NON Warmblood breeders too and even some that make a point to let other know they dont even like WB breeds. Go figure?!?!

It's quite possible a well bred reiner may cost more than a WB but the COSTS in creating that weanling are more determined by your geographical area, your philosophy of foal raising, your vet skills etc. So you seem to be saying that there is some magical number that gets added into the expense because it's a WB. Given the same set of circumstances the reiner weanling may be more expensive because the stud fee is higher ( and possibley because demand is high).

[PineTreeFarm]

Again the ones who are getting so upset over this are not even WB breeders. They are not even in the business, but have a whole lot to say about it. :lol:

Don't need to be a breeder to have an opinion. I think the only one that seems to be getting really excited is you.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

Again the ones who are getting so upset over this are not even WB breeders. They are not even in the business, but have a whole lot to say about it. :lol:

The name of the forum is SPORT HORSE BREEDING, not WB breeding. How can you say the breeder of one of the top ranked CCI**** Eventers in the world is not in the business?

Sweetmudderofgawd!

[STF]

It's quite possible a well bred reiner may cost more than a WB but the COSTS

IT DOES NOT MATTER when you do market studies. You compare like to like and sell prices of each. Who CARES, stay in one realm!

So you seem to be saying that there is some magical number that gets added into the expense because it's a WB.

NO! Im saying that finding quality out of proven bloodlines is not easy under 10K. Proven fact. Supply and Demand, whatever you want to call it. Finding the elite well bred horses are not easy for cheap.

Given the same set of circumstances the reiner weanling may be more expensive because the stud fee is higher ( and possibley because demand is high).

Again, you cant stay on track. Were talking of our breeding and why well bred warmblood horses cost so much. Not ponies, not grade horses, not QH, not mustangs, not anything but well bred WB horses.

[Daydream Believer]

PS - when you do market studies, you have to compare like to like.
You cant compare a QH/Pony cross with a Prem. Hanovierian or type colt. Its impossible. That is the point I dont think a lot of you see.
Like I have said over and over, many of you are arguing apples to oranges.
I find it funny that the people who have the most problem with this thread are the NON Warmblood breeders too and even some that make a point to let other know they dont even like WB breeds. Go figure?!?!

STF...I certainly hope you have not gotten the impression I don't like WB's...that's not true. While they are not my breed of choice to own and ride, I certainly admire a nice one...just like any breed. I board a couple of them and am around them daily also...so it's not in ignorance that I choose to ride the breed I do. We all march to the beat of a different drummer and my heart goes to my little horses. I am sure never going to get rich breeding them but it doesn't sound like you folks selling weanlings for $10,000+ are doing much better on the bottom line. ;)

I would think you all would welcome the perspectives of breeders other than WB's. You can see how those of us who are forced to sell for much less due to our market or our competition and stay in business...while still taking very good care of our horses. You may find it handy to know someday if the sport horse market crashes and prices drop drastically...or buyers keep going to Europe instead of buying here. It's not apples and oranges so much as the management choices you make when it comes to costs. I sure don't believe a WB baby eats all that much more than a horse of any breed so that you can't even compare the costs of raising them. Sure many of us don't have inspections and our breeding costs may be less but that can apply to WB's also.

Your last post sure doesn't make a non WB breeder feel very welcome to join in a discussion and share one's perspectives when the thread was never specified "for WB breeders only.":no: If all you want is a discussion of WB breeders bellyaching as to how much it costs to raise their elite inspected branded olympic prospects to justify your prices for them...than next time you might be more clear in your first post that no non WB breeders should join in.

[Daydream Believer]

DB, I knew that. I honestly believe it to be a fluke. Repeat that same cross and I guarantee it wouldn't happen again.

I don't know if I agree with you. I think there are way more Teddy's out there than anyone realizes. The problem is that no one will hardly ever give a 14:1 hand pony a chance like Teddy had. Wynn sacrificed a lot to prove he could do it and I sure hope it opens some minds that you don't have to have a WB sport horse to go out and play in the big time.

I love riding ponies by the way...so much more fun than big horses! It is refreshing to see a pony kicking butt at the top!

[STF]

WB sport horse to go out and play in the big time.

Wasnt Teddy the first pony ever to go that far?

[Daydream Believer]

Wasnt Teddy the first pony ever to go that far?

I think the first true pony in eventing at that level but there have been many others small horses (hony) types to do well in the sport at very high levels.

Don't forget Stroller and Seldom Seen...who were only an inch or so taller than Teddy. Ponies are not even allowed to compete in the olympics in dressage due to FEI size rules so that may be one reason you haven't seen any yet at the games.

Truth is though...how many top riders like Karen O' Conner would ever even consider a pony instead of a horse for top competition? How many uber talented little ones never get the chance Teddy did? I suspect way more than anyone realizes are out there.

I love Teddy's success because it will help people open their minds to what ponies and little horses can do...and no...I don't think he is a freak. Yes he is very talented but not a freak.

[CAJumper]

I guess I'm just trying to illustrate that the COST is pretty much seperate and distinct from the WORTH of a particular horse. As a breeder, if I consistently spend more to produce horses than they are WORTH-- well, I'm not doing a very good job.

Well said! :yes:

[Home Again Farm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by westernrider http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2607993#post2607993)
I guess I'm just trying to illustrate that the COST is pretty much seperate and distinct from the WORTH of a particular horse. As a breeder, if I consistently spend more to produce horses than they are WORTH-- well, I'm not doing a very good job.

CAJumper wrote:
Well said! :yes:


I agreed with every word of westernrider's post. Very thoughtful and very well put. :yes:

I also have found Pwynn lenghty outline of her breeding journey to be extremely interesting and worthy of admiration for courage, perseverance and refusal to be swayed from a plan that seems to be working. :yes:

And I don't think this discussion is helped at all by anyone bashing other breeder's choices, websites, horses or the like. This has been a very interesting, thought provoking thread. I hope it can stay that way.

[DMK]

DB, I knew that. I honestly believe it to be a fluke. Repeat that same cross and I guarantee it wouldn't happen again.

Well no duh. How many full sibling success stories are out there regardless of registry or lack thereof? If full sibling crosses were all it took to win the Olympics or the Derby, we really wouldn't be quoting Tesio or discussing breeding costs now would we?

[hluing]

I have been reading this thread with interest and think the original cost breakdown was fairly conservative and of course the best case senario...get a sick foal or mare, fertility issues, etc, etc and costs go up. As always Pywnn had some interesting thoughts on things though I seldom agree...I enjoyed her honest discussion;)

I am not sure where the pony bashing came up in this thread but I do have to say that my German Riding Pony breeding program closely corelates with WB breeding...frozen semen from the same dealers, same inspections with the same judges, similar breeding goals except for size etc...so I would think it can fully compare with any WB program. The one big difference is GRP's are very new in this country and thier is a very limited supply currently...

[nycjumper]

DMK - stop being reasonable! ;)

I guess what I find confusing is the breeders that price all their foals across the board at the same price. It's not the buyers responsiblility to make the breeder profitable. And breeding horses is expensive & risky & I *would* assume you know that entering into it.

Kudos to you if your foal comes out a top specimen, I would charge accordingly.

But if you have bad luck or your folas aren't great - don't look to the buyer to recoup those costs..

[STF]

Well some bloodlines have proven their worth over the years.
Take Jalisco B for example. He had 6 offspring competing at the 1992 Barcelona games at one time. How is that for proven! :lol:
Other stallions have proven their worth in numbers by siring many approved son, elite mares.
Like Grand Veneur himself, great SF stallion he was sired over 335 sucessful showjumpers in his life. I mean, wow!
Look at Rubinstein and how many of his offspring topped the FEI charts as well as sucessful stallion themself (Rhondimant, Royal Diamond, Rotspon, etc, etc).
Not to mention the Donnerhall legacy. Donnerhall offspring like Don Premiro, Davignon, Del Perio, De Niro, etc, etc, etc, etc......
Bloodlines do make a difference.

[DownYonder]

Oh, nonsense, diamondgirl. You are only seeing what you want to see. All of my sportponies are at least half TB--most are 3/4. There's just no registry for them (actually, Teddy's mom is registered with the American Remount Association, but who cares--which is why I haven't registered any of the other 1/2 TB broodmares I've had) and as I've said for years, I don't think the current WB registries offer enough for my business to make it worth my while going through the trouble and expense to have them registered via inspection (or even going a performance route). All of the remaining (hunter) ponies are registered either half or full welsh. Moreover, even my foundation mare was registered, as was my foundation stallion and all of the outside stallions I've bred to.

But if you want to continue to be selectively perceptive, be my guest! :D


Growing up, I was always told that an unregistered horse is considered a grade horse. There is no shame in that, it is simply a matter of fact. I well remember the many times the vets wrote "grade" for breed when filling out a Coggins report on my Aunt's unregistered Saddlebred crosses!!

And Wynn, while I have a great deal of respect and admiration for what you have accomplished with your breeding program, I have to agree that you cannot quite compare your program to that of breeders who spend $20K - $30K to buy a quality warmblood mare and then spend another several thousand to get her bred to a "top of the charts" warmblood stallion. It IS like comparing apples to oranges.

[STF]

DMK - stop being reasonable! ;)

I guess what I find confusing is the breeders that price all their foals across the board at the same price. It's not the buyers responsiblility to make the breeder profitable. And breeding horses is expensive & risky & I *would* assume you know that entering into it.

Kudos to you if your foal comes out a top specimen, I would charge accordingly.

But if you have bad luck or your folas aren't great - don't look to the buyer to recoup those costs..


Who said anyone is doing that??? Nobody said that. I said TOP offspring go for 10K and up. Not all horses are priced "across the board!" There is not ONE breeder I know that does not evaluate their offspring and give it a price based on what it is, bloodlines, inspection scores, etc, etc. THAT was not what was being said.
The whole post was to prove to people why its expensive to breed and make people understand that 10K for a super bred horse is NOT a lot of money once you put the numbers to it.

[STF]

[QUOTE][Growing up, I was always told that an unregistered horse is considered a grade horse. There is no shame in that, it is simply a matter of fact.
/QUOTE]

Merlot is a grade horse, even though he has good bloodlines and I knew his sire, but in reality is a grade mutt! You could not give me 50K for him, I love him that much! Maybe 75K, but........ :lol:

[DancingPretense]

I am not a breeder but did buy my first weanling last year, so I have been paying for him since he was 4.5 months old. I think a lot of those numbers are low, especially the vet costs and grain, bedding, etc.

[Molly Malone]

I've sold @$115,000 worth of horse flesh in @ 12 years. Not much, by a lot of folks standards, and only one year of profit. But look deeper into the "windfall" business plan, OK. That sum comes out to about $10,000 per year in income on average. Again on average, my biz expenses have been between $20-25,000 per year, year after year, except for 18 months between 2005 and the end of 2006 (the original Teddy and Karen period).

So, if you use those averages, my business has lost between $120-160K roughly since its existance (since I did have quite a few years at closer to $20K, Teddy's 18 months of hyper-expense are kind of absorbed there--again, roughly!). Meanwhile, the IRS expects you to not only make a profit, but ALSO recoup your losses...

So what are you eating, Pwynn?

How do you live? On loans or credit cards that you pay off when times are good?

Or do you have a real job that pays the bills? Or a rich Significant Other?

You aren't running a business, you're supporting a habit.

[diamondgirl]

I have been reading this thread with interest and think the original cost breakdown was fairly conservative and of course the best case senario...get a sick foal or mare, fertility issues, etc, etc and costs go up. As always Pywnn had some interesting thoughts on things though I seldom agree...I enjoyed her honest discussion;)

I am not sure where the pony bashing came up in this thread but I do have to say that my German Riding Pony breeding program closely corelates with WB breeding...frozen semen from the same dealers, same inspections with the same judges, similar breeding goals except for size etc...so I would think it can fully compare with any WB program. The one big difference is GRP's are very new in this country and thier is a very limited supply currently...

Hluing, I would never put your WB ponies in the same category. Your ponies look like minature WBs and are true sporthorse IMHO.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Well, Pwynn, looks like you got your wish. No one is cuting you any slack. :lol:

I sure hope my recent good luck doesn't give me any kind of a pass. For one thing, that'd be pretty boring...]

[BelladonnaLily]

No, thats not what Im saying. Each cost is set by its own operation. What Im saying is you cant compare two seperate types of industry. What a draft is going to sell for is not what a top bred WB will sell for, changing profit margins drasticly.


I haven't read through yet but how does the profit margin determine what it COSTS to get a foal to weaning? I thought the argument was that it costs AT LEAST what is on your spread to get a foal to weaning, so you may even be losing money. Now you are say that the cost to raise depends on the profit margin? I'm confused. But I'll keep reading and maybe I'll understand...

And pinetreefarm is right, a top QH will easily sell for at least as much if not more money than a top warmblood in this country. So, comparing QHs to warmbloods is probably fair. If you've ever been in a top QH barn, you'll see they probably sink more money into their foals than most warmblood breeders.

[STF]

I haven't read through yet but how does the profit margin determine what it COSTS to get a foal to weaning?

It doesent, it just show how much breeders are putting into it.

so you may even be losing money.

May? :lol: You mean usually! LOL

Now you are say that the cost to raise depends on the profit margin? I'm confused. But I'll keep reading and maybe I'll understand...


Not what Im saying. What Im proving is that there is not a lot of profit to be made in breeding and breeders. So when someone asks why a breeder (Not me, just any breeder) would have a foal priced at 10K or above, there are reasons they do this.

And pinetreefarm is right, a top QH will easily sell for at least as much if not more money

Im in TX, trust me I know what the QH's can bring. CAN, key word there as well.

So, comparing QHs to warmbloods is probably fair.

Nope, totally different market as well as type of buyers. Plus the # of QH's to WB's really throw the ratio off when you do a supply and demand ratio.

If you've ever been in a top QH barn, you'll see they probably sink more money into their foals than most warmblood breeders

Some. That is about the biggest common factor between the two

[Tamara in TN]

Nope, totally different market as well as type of buyers. Plus the # of QH's to WB's really throw the ratio off when you do a supply and demand ratio.


what if you narrowed it down to just cutting horses ???

Tamara in TN

[Daydream Believer]

Hluing, I would never put your WB ponies in the same category. Your ponies look like minature WBs and are true sporthorse IMHO.

Wow...this is getting stupid beyond belief. So now GRP's are the "approved category" of apples and not oranges like Wynn's Gold medal winning crossbred pony since they look like minature WB's? What in the hell do you think a GRP is? it's a crossbred sport pony for God's sake! A mixture of WB, arab, TB, welsh, New Forest, etc.. Good grief! :no::confused::sigh:

[avery]

Thank goodness the vast majority of horse owners don't feel the need to charge horse buyers the amount of money they've spent on the sale horse over the years for feed, vet bills, training, registration fees, etc!

[STF]

what if you narrowed it down to just cutting horses ???

Tamara in TN


Then it would be possible since we have so many common factors in type, market, buyers, breeders, etc.

[CathyKb]

I think most posters are just saying it is expensive to breed and raise a baby, some more than others. I don't care what breed, they all eat the same, need care the same, the only maybe big difference is the costs of each different area and the stud fees and the initial cost of your broodmares which can make a huge difference in the value of the weanling. I am in the middle of race horse country, QH and TB, good mares cost several thousand and some way over one hundred thousand and the stud fees usually range from $3,500 to $100,000. You have to know each market and yes, any foal may turn out crooked, sick, or not really the athlete that you had hoped for. Most breeders take everything into account before pricing a foal.

Always remember, it takes just as much to feed a bad horse as a good horse.