American Warmblood - What is that?

[Anyplace Farm]

Please tell me it isn't another name for a Clydesdale/TB cross. I saw an ad for a horse and asked for pix and he looks just like a Clyde.

[Hillside H Ranch]

I would do a google search on American Warmblood Registry and American Warmblood Society and you can probably get a lot of your questions answered. Asking that question here is a hot topic and probably will end up as a train-wreck!

[Gracie]

Sorry to disappoint you, but yes, you are right.

Most of the registered horses with AWS are anglo- or arab- or saddlebred-draft crosses. But don't let that deter you. There are a lot of very nice draft crosses. You need to decide what you want from your horse before you buy.

[Anyplace Farm]

Well, he doesn't look terrible. Actually quite cute. And, the guy has several other horses so I figure it might be worth the trip to see it and see what else he might have.

[caffeinated]

Well, there are different kinds of "american warmblood"

1- a horse registered with the American Warmblood Society. Can be just about anything, except pure TB, Arab, or draft.

2- A horse "approved" with the AWS, which I believe requires inspection, etc, like any other warmblood breed.

3- a horse registered or accepted with the American Warmblood Registry

4- A horse of indeterminate breeding that is part draft, that some person thinks is a "warmblood" because it's "hot crossed with cold" and so they advertise it as an American Warmblood despite the fact that it was never even registered (let alone approved) through any breed registry at all.

You'd have to go to the registry websites to get specifics about what's required for registration and/or approval, but IMO most horses advertised as American Warmbloods are some sort of cross, and they're not actually REGISTERED as anything, but their owners call them warmbloods out of either ignorance or a weak attempt to make more money off other ignorant people.

[carolprudm]

I hope to register this filly
http://www.msnusers.com/newfarm/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=23

AWS

[Anyplace Farm]

Well, there are different kinds of "american warmblood"

1- a horse registered with the American Warmblood Society. Can be just about anything, except pure TB, Arab, or draft.

2- A horse "approved" with the AWS, which I believe requires inspection, etc, like any other warmblood breed.

3- a horse registered or accepted with the American Warmblood Registry

4- A horse of indeterminate breeding that is part draft, that some person thinks is a "warmblood" because it's "hot crossed with cold" and so they advertise it as an American Warmblood despite the fact that it was never even registered (let alone approved) through any breed registry at all.

You'd have to go to the registry websites to get specifics about what's required for registration and/or approval, but IMO most horses advertised as American Warmbloods are some sort of cross, and they're not actually REGISTERED as anything, but their owners call them warmbloods out of either ignorance or a weak attempt to make more money off other ignorant people.


Do they bear brands as well? Or is this a 'papers only' thing?

[Anyplace Farm]

I hope to register this filly
http://www.msnusers.com/newfarm/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=23

AWS

Whoa. Pretty. Well, the thing I'm looking at seriously just looks like a lighter boned Clyde. Has the tall whites and big blaze but not the big feathers. Has a cute face, though and quite a decent head.

[Janet]

Do they bear brands as well? Or is this a 'papers only' thing?

I have an AWS registered 2yo gelding (Chief- reg name Premier de Kegan).

(Sire is a Ilian de Taute, GP jumper, Selle Francais. Dam is Penmerryl's Rose (currently eventing), AWS registered and inspected/approved, by the RID Happy Ending, out of TB Aunt Rosa).

_I_ call him Anglo-Irish-French, as he is 50% TB.

When he is inspected (there is an inspection in Oct in VA I will probably take him to), I will have the option of branding or not.

[pintopiaffe]

I'll bite.

Caffenated's answer is closest/best. There are two registries who have different goals and rules/requirements, but those who go through them are registered, and can also be approved.

AWS has levels of books almost exactly the same as RPSI, based on pedigree AND performance. AWS does have a brand if desired, but only above a minimum score. AWS *does* record any horse presented to them. That does NOT mean any horse presented to them is approved for breeding, rather, it's a way to have the horse's pedigree recorded for performance & posterity.

And yes, there are a lot of folks calling any draft cross an AWB without ever registering, inspecting etc. That *is* detrimental, no doubt.


These are AWS registered:
A two year old: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/magikat.jpg?t=1186087337

A foal at side: (full sib to above filly) going to inspections in a few weeks: (he'll be a year next week) http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/kat%20colt%2020060808/newguytrot.jpg?t=1186087435

This guy is also last year's model and will be presented:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/InnisFaeth%20Colt%2051906/checkingthefence.jpg?t=1186087556

Here's one that won her inspections as a suckling:
http://www.innisfailte.com/Pics/awsceara.jpg

And this one is .02 away from breeding Approveal. He had a Very Bad Day at Inspections. Long story, but there were many other ill behaved stallions (even let to ROLL in the arena!) and my guy's 'wife' and foal were there. He was very stressed. He will finish his Approval via performance scores.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/sons%20of%20the%20wind%20show/holycowtrot.jpg?t=1186087623

He also was approved RPSI, and again, needs to finish his scores to attain the highest book (Book I) but he actually scored higher RPSI, as he had a far, far better day and really showed what he is. But I mention it, because he's 'good enough' and qualifies for a 'real' studbook, so it's not just settling.

This mare would have been presented, had I known about the organization before loosing her. Her filly by the above stallion will be presented this year.
http://www.innisfailte.com/Pics/tegdanc.jpg

[caffeinated]

Do they bear brands as well? Or is this a 'papers only' thing?

My understanding with AWS is that they will register just about anything, in terms of recording it and giving it papers. "approved" requires a bit more and I believe there is a brand also for approved horses.

Someone just posted the details on this recently, so it's on here somewhere. I'm not a breeder, just read a lot.

Google is your friend, it's pretty easy to find the registry websites and get the information directly :)

[carolprudm]

Whoa. Pretty. Well, the thing I'm looking at seriously just looks like a lighter boned Clyde. Has the tall whites and big blaze but not the big feathers. Has a cute face, though and quite a decent head.
Peekablue is 1/4 Perch, 3/4 TB, will be gray

[Anyplace Farm]

I'll bite.

Caffenated's answer is closest/best. There are two registries who have different goals and rules/requirements, but those who go through them are registered, and can also be approved.

AWS has levels of books almost exactly the same as RPSI, based on pedigree AND performance. AWS does have a brand if desired, but only above a minimum score. AWS *does* record any horse presented to them. That does NOT mean any horse presented to them is approved for breeding, rather, it's a way to have the horse's pedigree recorded for performance & posterity.

And yes, there are a lot of folks calling any draft cross an AWB without ever registering, inspecting etc. That *is* detrimental, no doubt.


These are AWS registered:
A two year old: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/magikat.jpg?t=1186087337

A foal at side: (full sib to above filly) going to inspections in a few weeks: (he'll be a year next week) http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/kat%20colt%2020060808/newguytrot.jpg?t=1186087435

This guy is also last year's model and will be presented:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/InnisFaeth%20Colt%2051906/checkingthefence.jpg?t=1186087556

Here's one that won her inspections as a suckling:
http://www.innisfailte.com/Pics/awsceara.jpg

And this one is .02 away from breeding Approveal. He had a Very Bad Day at Inspections. Long story, but there were many other ill behaved stallions (even let to ROLL in the arena!) and my guy's 'wife' and foal were there. He was very stressed. He will finish his Approval via performance scores.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/sons%20of%20the%20wind%20show/holycowtrot.jpg?t=1186087623

He also was approved RPSI, and again, needs to finish his scores to attain the highest book (Book I) but he actually scored higher RPSI, as he had a far, far better day and really showed what he is. But I mention it, because he's 'good enough' and qualifies for a 'real' studbook, so it's not just settling.

This mare would have been presented, had I known about the organization before loosing her. Her filly by the above stallion will be presented this year.
http://www.innisfailte.com/Pics/tegdanc.jpg


Your stuff is lovely!

[CBoylen]

I own an American Warmblood Society branded full TB, with Jockey Club papers as well. Apparently the girl I bought him from thought warmbloods sold better, so went through the approval process just to get a brand on his butt. So now, the people who like warmbloods assume he's some type of draft cross, and the people who like TB's assume I'm lying when they see the brand :rolleyes:.

[jilltx]

It's prety simple; warmblood is a type not a breed.

Hanoverian, Trakehner, Holsteiner... are breeds of warmblood.

[pintopiaffe]

Jill--I agree 110% in theory.

But I think there is warmblood and Warmblood. I don't try to pretend that mine are Warmblood, but rather, they are sporthorses. In *theory* they are warmblood--Arab X but that is what gets the Warmblood people up in arms. There's a certain expectation that "Warmblood" implies European bloodlines.

I really like AWS as a resource and a venue for my Arab-crossed-with-Amercican breed Sporthorses. (which, FWIW, the 2nd and 3rd generations are thrilling me--very predictable, very typey.) I think they would be soooo well served to call it American Warmblood AND Sporthorse. (see, you could even keep the letters!)

[Shawnda N]

This just about says it all.
http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/

[carolprudm]

It's prety simple; warmblood is a type not a breed.

Hanoverian, Trakehner, Holsteiner... are breeds of warmblood.
No, these are German Warmblood registries. They have open books. Arabians and TB's are breeds.

[rcloisonne]

It's prety simple; warmblood is a type not a breed.

Hanoverian, Trakehner, Holsteiner... are breeds of warmblood.
Actually, with the possible exception of Trakehner, those are breed registries, not breeds. You can mix 'em, match 'em and cross register 'em between these registries (why not throw in Oldenburg, Westphalian, etc. too?). :lol:

And since even the Traks allow outside blood (TB & Arab) I don't consider them a real "breed" either.

[jilltx]

Actually, with the possible exception of Trakehner, those are breed registries, not breeds. You can mix 'em, match 'em and cross register 'em between these registries (why not throw in Oldenburg, Westphalian, etc. too?). :lol:

And since even the Traks allow outside blood (TB & Arab) I don't consider them a real "breed" either.

While I am in agreement, I was trying to make a polite point. :winkgrin:

*runs for cover...plugs in popcorn maker*

[STF]

Please tell me it isn't another name for a Clydesdale/TB cross. I saw an ad for a horse and asked for pix and he looks just like a Clyde.


Pretty much! :lol:
When someone says American WB, I always think of draft crosses.

[coriander]

I *should* stay out of this, but, an "American Warmblood" is likely to be some kind of draft cross that someone is trying to market. Otherwise, I'm thinking the specific types would be mentioned with the notation "registered AWS or AWR."

*Ducks and runs for cover*

[STF]

I *should* stay out of this, but, an "American Warmblood" is likely to be some kind of draft cross that someone is trying to market. Otherwise, I'm thinking the specific types would be mentioned with the notation "registered AWS or AWR."

*Ducks and runs for cover*

Hey I TOTALLY agree with you!! I'll stand next to you on this comments and put my firesuit on too.

Honestly, when I see ads for American Warmbloods, I dont even bother reading them.:no:

[DashofBrandy]

I do find it very funny that my colt who is out of a well bred TB mare and by a Hanoverian stallion with even better lines was able to be registered by several different registries. These registries included Oldenburg, AWR, and one or two others. I chose AWR because my colt is an American; not European. When it comes down to the end, the registry that I paid the $$$$ to registered him. Yes, he had to pass inspection, but he would have passed not matter which registry I decided to enlist. My colt proudly wears a AWR brand. I get frustrated when people assume all American Warmbloods are "just some draft cross". There are horses out there that were bred by people who are patriotic and truely believe that we can produce horses in the US that are just as good, or better as those on the other side of the pond. Pay the correct dues and you can be part of any club.... Smart people would evaluate the entire horse as an individual and consider aptitude for the desired discipline. Who knows maybe people are just looking for another status symbol?

[Anyplace Farm]

Smart people would evaluate the entire horse as an individual and consider aptitude for the desired discipline. Who knows maybe people are just looking for another status symbol?

I'm sure you didn't mean that to be directly solely at me -- rather, possibly it was a blanket statement. But I'll comment. To me, a smart person does their research before driving four hours away to see a horse, hence, my questions. On one website, the horse was listed as a Dutch Warmblood and on another, he was listed as an American Warmblood. The picture that was emailed to me looks EXACTLY like a Clydesdale. If anyone has the ability to post pictures, I'm happy to share.

Not sure who the 'status symbol' comment was directed at. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess that you meant the man was trying to market his horse in a more favorable light. Me personally, I've had several warmbloods pass thru the barn in my life and am shopping for Thoroughbreds these days.

[Horsecrazy27]

GOSH, these threads get my bp rise. If I were you, I would go to an AWS inspection, talk to the judges---even call them, find out for your self.

My AWS reg horses have sold from 5000-30k from weanlings-6 year olds. No draft blood (Unless you consider Irish Sport Horses draft), proven pedigrees, performance, and approved with scores from 72-85 and some with additional registrys. One was half TB, the others full Euro blood---or combo with the Irish lines.

Some choose to support an American/USA reg----supporting/volunteering, trying to work at improving the registry, which is always important--I do. I'm breeding 5 mares next year, 2 to Frozen semen with very very high quality mares, the foals will be reg- AWS. It would be asshamed to pass up the foals out of these mares because the headline read "AWS" reg wb. Just like having a foal out of my Fiener Stern X First Class (who has 1/4 Arab blood--scoring 9's for type, 8's plus on movement from RPSI/OlD/Westfalen 16.3 hands, gorgeous girl) http://hollidaysporthorses.com/presleypage.html mare and by Sandro Hit---just because it was reg. AWS?????? Sad that there is that much snootiness (is that a word). I'm not a Trak fan, but still look and see the horse/pedigree, don't just skip over them. But, I'm open minded.

[Jasmine]

From the AWS Website
------------------------------------------
Eligibility for Registration
To be eligible for registration a horse/pony can be of any breed stock or combination thereof, except 100% hot- blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds), which can be nominated (see below).

Eligibility for Nomination
To be eligible for nomination a horse/pony can be 100% hot-blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds). All AWS benefits are the same as registration.

Eligibility for Recording
To be eligible for recording the horse/pony has been previously registered with another registry. All AWS benefits are the same as registration.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Draft blood is perfectly acceptable. 100% draft blood can be nominated, which gives you the same AWS benefits as registration.

[pintopiaffe]

Anyplace, the comment wasn't directed at you, it was directed at the 'jump on the wagon, AWS is just a draft cross' folks. They don't bother to read the pedigrees, they don't bother to read the posts. :uhoh:

None of mine have any draft. Well, one to come does have 1/4 Percheron, from her Spanish Norman sire. She won't go AWS I don't think anyway.

Jasmine, you forgot to clip the next BIG section which talks about APPROVEALS and BOOKS... just because a horse is registered or recorded, it is NOT Approved, and certainly not for breeding. RPSI records everything too. They have to. It's the law.

It's not uncommon for Dutch horses to have a lot of chrome. High whites and a blaze on a bay do not a clyde make. Not saying he's not a clyde cross, but absolutely you should ask pedigree before going all that way. Ask if he's registered or APPROVED, and which registry, fidn out the level or book, then look up what that means. THEN spend the gas money.

Unless of course you like what you see enough that with a gelding you don't care what the papers say. You don't ride the papers.

[Anyplace Farm]

It's not uncommon for Dutch horses to have a lot of chrome. High whites and a blaze on a bay do not a clyde make. Not saying he's not a clyde cross, but absolutely you should ask pedigree before going all that way. Ask if he's registered or APPROVED, and which registry, fidn out the level or book, then look up what that means. THEN spend the gas money.

Unless of course you like what you see enough that with a gelding you don't care what the papers say. You don't ride the papers.


That's good information. I'm one of those that doesn't really care what breed it is -- it just has to appeal to my eye and I have to enjoy the ride. I did ask the guy about the sire and dam -- hoping to get more info. Just don't know enough about the whole AWS thing so your feedback was valuable.

[Lafeyarabian]

Until rececently when I heard the words draft cross I assumed not worth looking at. Of course I had NO experience with drafts or crosses, I had just soaked up the negativity that hear around me and made assumptions. (In retrospect this srprises me because I absolutely hate when people do this with arabs.)

Any way, I just spent the last 10 days visiting my parents in central NY. Currently my mom has 2 percheron/arab F1 crosses that are registered with AWS. They are full sisters 4 & 5 years old. The older was heavier and more drafty. The younger one you would be hard pressed to pick out of a barn of wb's as being a draft cross. They had both had been started undersaddle by kids of a very beginner level.

The older drafty one turned out to be an amazing horse. She's huge and heavy looking to my eye (I have arabs & arab/wb crosses), so I was expecting her to be heavy and clunky to ride especially because she has no formal training. She wasn't. She was light, forward, and flexible. She had very comfortable gaits that were easy to ride, and she was also very smart. AT the end of our first ride she was going in a consistent frame, could do shoulder fore on the rail, and a little bit of leg yield. None of which sounds like a big deal, but remember no training at all. She's normally ridden by a 12 yr old girl that just started riding.

If I had the room and the money I would have brought this horse home.

As for the OP question not all AWS are draft crosses. I currently have an AWS mare that is an Art Deco daughter out of SWB mare. Her dam wasn't registerd however because her sire was an unapproved SWB stallion. This limited the registration choices for my mare as she didn't meet the registration requirements. There are a lot of wb horses that are registered with AWS because they are by stallions who have not done the 100 DT and therefore are not approved by a European based registry.

[Equibrit]

http://www.americanwarmblood.com/

http://www.americanwarmblood.com/files/forms/AWR_RULES_REGULATIONS.pdf

[Rocky XVI]

I recently had a new farrier come in to trim our youngsters, one of whom is a chunky 2-year-old filly that is the spitting image of her sturdy dutch warmblood mom (Concorde x Celano x Notaris).

When I brought this filly into the aisle to be trimmed, the farrier nodded approvingly and commented, "I really like the substance of these draft crosses."

Man, I don't give a hoot if someone thinks I'm breeding warmbloods or draft crosses. The mom, at 7 years of age, is competing in the 1.30m jumpers with an amateur, and I just hope that this filly is as much like her mom at 7 years of age as she is now!!!!

[Black Forest]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's wrong with a draft cross?

............

As for the OP question not all AWS are draft crosses. I currently have an AWS mare that is an Art Deco daughter out of SWB mare. Her dam wasn't registerd however because her sire was an unapproved SWB stallion. This limited the registration choices for my mare as she didn't meet the registration requirements. There are a lot of wb horses that are registered with AWS because they are by stallions who have not done the 100 DT and therefore are not approved by a European based registry.

Th3ere is absolutely nothing what-so-ever wrong with Draft crosses that wouldn't be wrong in an equivalent horse with whatever other papers.

What DOES rub a lot of people up the wrong way is when Draft Crosses are classed as / called / marketed as "Warmbloods" rather than by their correct designation of "Sporthorses".

One of my best horses was a Draft cross (well he was mainly TB but there was a bit of something drafty in there - probably less than 25% with the rest being TB plus a smidgeon of something else - who knows as only the TB bits were properly recorded)

If the AWS / AWR split their books into a Sporthorse book and a WB book the whole ridiculous argument would vanish in an instant and they'd gain masses of credibility all round.

I repeat and stress there is nothing wrong with Draft Crosses, Sporthorses made up from whatever other blood as long as they are a good type and a correct and athletic horse. I'd rather have a great cossbred if it ticked all the boxes than a Warmblood that doesn't - but I would not have dreamed of calling my crossbred sporthorse a Warmblood any more than I'd call a BMW a Mercedes - they're both great cars but one is not the other .....

[carolprudm]

The traditional definition of warmblood was hotblood x cold blood. The Europeans capitalized the term (and capitalized on it)

[Fairview Horse Center]

If the AWS / AWR split their books into a Sporthorse book and a WB book the whole ridiculous argument would vanish in an instant and they'd gain masses of credibility all round.

But their (AWS) book IS split. The Elite book is 4 generations of European Warmblood & TB. They just have not changed the name of their registry.

What do you call the Oldenburg Verband, & Belgian Warmblood Registries that have included draft cross, and QH mares? Do you not call them Warmbloods?

Everyone needs to remember that the AWS score for APPROVAL is 75%, not 62%. 62% is just accepted for awards, and to document pedigree.

[Black Forest]

1) But their (AWS) book IS split. The Elite book is 4 generations of European Warmblood & TB. They just have not changed the name of their registry.

2) What do you call the Oldenburg Verband, & Belgian Warmblood Registries that have included draft cross, and QH mares? Do you not call them Warmbloods?

3) Everyone needs to remember that the AWS score for APPROVAL is 75%, not 62%. 62% is just accepted for awards, and to document pedigree.

1) - Well, why NOT split the name. It is the obvious and rcorrect thing to do - it would have countless benefits! As long as horses with not even a homeopathic dose of WB blood can go forth and multiply and create so-called "American Warmbloods" the credibility will not rise and these pointless arguments will continue to go round and round in circles

2) Those Verbands have included some of that blood - and the perspective is usually "Well, if they insist on it and it's not going to end up poisoning the breeds in the Vaterland we might as well on occasion" (This being an almost verbatim quote, the "poisoning" bit being irectly translated.). Also there is a difference of approving a great mare with some unconventional blood that will then be bred to WB stallions on occasion and having 1000s of horses being called / marketed as / bred as / standing at stud as "American Warmbloods". There is something to be said for using local stock sparingly and carefully and selectively a the beginning - you have to remember that when those registries started there just weren't the WB mares in sufficient numbers to get things off the ground. But there are now. There is little need for it to continue

3) The score etc situation is fine, but as abovem split it to WB book and SH book - have the same scores for approval in both so both carry on improving in quality and all would be sorted.

[Fairview Horse Center]

As long as horses with not even a homeopathic dose of WB blood can go forth and multiply and create so-called "American Warmbloods" the credibility will not rise and these pointless arguments will continue to go round and round in circles.

Does that apply to those TB/TB horses in the Oldenburg Registries that are registered and branded Warmblood without even a "homeopathic dose of WB blood"? :winkgrin:

[Black Forest]

Does that apply to those TB/TB horses in the Oldenburg Registries that are registered and branded Warmblood without even a "homeopathic dose of WB blood"? :winkgrin:


yes, there are thousands and thousands of them, aren't there, and it's something everyone strives for and we see them at every corner. Of course. :winkgrin:

Theoretically it should not happen as one parent has to be branded Oldenburg by the Oldenburg rules, and the other approved by Oldenburg or approved in one of the acceptable registries - and I'm not sure there are so many branded Oldenurg TBs about - not over here anyway. I have never come across a TB that was branded Oldenburg nor have I ever heard of one. I guess they exist but why use a handful (if that) of horses to try and compare that to / justify a huge number / large percentage of horses?

Can you point at a horse that is branded and registered Oldenburg Verband (not just approved by) and is 100% TB? I am NOT saying it doesn't exist but it would have been bred with some major exceptions being made to the rules

And really, digging out those exceptions is like digging out that one Belgium WB stallion who as some QH blood at every conceivable opportunity.....

Most European breeders rarely ever use TB mares (the blood traditionally comes from the stallion) in their breeding programmes so I don't see there being many TB x TB that are branded and registered as Oldenburger - or Hannoverian etc etc etc.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Yes, there are definitely Oldenburgs, registered from birth by Oldenburg Approved TB stallions, and out of Oldenburg approved TB mares (at least in the US and Canada). Not a drop of Warmblood in them.

The point is that the European registries do that and it is ok, but when the American Registries do that, they have no credibility.

MANY of the AWS horses DO have quite a bit of Warmblood blood in them. I think each registry has the right to CHOOSE what blood they will include in their registry. They can CHOOSE what THEY believe will not POISON their studbooks.

[Black Forest]

1) Yes, there are definitely Oldenburgs, registered from birth by Oldenburg Approved TB stallions, and out of Oldenburg approved TB mares (at least in the US and Canada). Not a drop of Warmblood in them.

2) The point is that the European registries do that and it is ok, but when the American Registries do that, they have no credibility.

3) MANY of the AWS horses DO have quite a bit of Warmblood blood in them.

4) I think each registry has the right to CHOOSE what blood they will include in their registry. They can CHOOSE what THEY believe will not POISON their studbooks.

1) In the US / Canada possibly as there seem to be far less stringent criteria applied than at home. At home it would absolutely not be allowed. It would appear odd that the Oldenburg Verband (rather than Oldenburg ISR which is a different entity entirely) that is meant to work with the same rulebook everywhere - would do this but hey...

2) No, actually I don't think it's ok if they break their own rules, when the breeders in the home registry have to stick to the rules and those elsewhere don't..... But also it's a matter of scale. There is a difference between an odd exception being made and the majority being "the exception"

3) "Many" have "quite a bit" of Warmblood in them ..... well.... just tell me why they are not just called Sporthorses instead of Warmbloods and the whole issue would immediately end being an issue!

4) Just for the record, the "poison" thing is not what I said, I just quoted it. And yes, every registry can do what they jolly well like, but if they want to breed Warmbloods and be a Warmblood Registry then they should do just that - and if they want to breed Sporthorses and be a Sporthorse Registry then why not have the book for the Sporthorses CALLED what it IS

[carolprudm]

1) - Well, why NOT split the name. It is the obvious and rcorrect thing to do - it would have countless benefits!
Just to please you?

[Black Forest]

Just to please you?

Honestly, I'm sorry but what sort of snarky comment is that? It makes no difference to me one way or the other personally, I thought this was about trying to find a way to allow those registries to attain some credibility and be able to be seen on an equal level to others.

I'm sure it is generally accepted that there is a massive credibility and image problem with the term "American WB" which is a crying shame and need not be the case. I don't think shooting the messenger is going to help the situation any....

[Fairview Horse Center]

Do you really think for a second that they would become credible to the European Warmblood registry breeders with a name change?

They probably are not changing the name because they have had it before most of the complaining people even bred Warmbloods. Or maybe because it is not outside of the definition of the word. http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Warmblood (http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Warmblood)

[Black Forest]

Do you really think for a second that they would become credible to the European Warmblood registry breeders with a name change?

With a separation of Sporthorses and Warmbloods and the Sporthorses no longer being called Warmbloods when they are not - yes. I do believe that. It seems to be the main bone of contention.

And when you read through it it's by no means just the "European WB breeders" that have an issue with that, it's the buying public at large too..... And whilst I suppose it is fairly irrelevant what European Warmblood breeders think of the concept of an American WB - it is NOT irrelevant what the US based horse-buying public think.....

[jilltx]

These are not the droids you are looking for...move along.

[Fairview Horse Center]

With a separation of Sporthorses and Warmbloods and the Sporthorses no longer being called Warmbloods when they are not - yes. I do believe that. It seems to be the main bone of contention.

I really don't think so. I think the name is just one more poke.

And when you read through it it's by no means just the "European WB breeders" that have an issue with that, it's the buying public at large too..... And whilst I suppose it is fairly irrelevant what European Warmblood breeders think of the concept of an American WB - it is NOT irrelevant what the US based horse-buying public think.....

Actually, not. Just a few hours ago, a new vet was here doing shots and Coggins on some of the horses. She said she had just purchased a new horse. I asked her what kind, and she said a TB/QH/Draft cross. TOTALLY unprovoked, she said that she "called that an American Warmblood". I almost lost my coffee. :lol: :lol: TIMING was incredible. :winkgrin:

[Fairview Horse Center]

These are not the droids you are looking for...move along.

Just were is that "Force" when you need it? :D

[Gucci Cowgirl]

There are two very different sides to this issue - and both sides are very passionate about what they stand for.

IMHO, the AWS is a good alternative for someone to have a horse, of any breed, that is registered. It is always easier to sell a registered horse, even if it IS a draft/arab cross. So what?! Those of you who dont want an AW horse, don't buy them, but also, don't knock them. What is perfect for one horseperson is totally unnacceptable for another.

My stallion is a branded Trakehner stallion, but we also had him approved Canadian Sport Horse, and American Warmblood. This gives those breeders of American Warmbloods easy access to european bloodlines, but also it keeps their programs "local" and patriotic.

I think there are a lot of people trying to do good things with the AWS, it just needs more time...

We have a filly on our farm that we bred here, but both parents are imports, so the only registry we can put her with is the Westfalen Verband in Germany...it is a little ungratifying that she can not be labeled an official "American" bred horse, because she will have German papers, but that is the price we have to pay sometimes.

The European registries do what they can, and the American registries do what they can...

Would anyone NOT breed to a stallion just because he was approved with the AWS?? It doesn't detract from their quality at ALL...so to be prejudiced against an entire registry because of mixed blood, doesn't make any sense.

www.millerdressage.com (http://www.millerdressage.com)

[~Freedom~]

There are two very different sides to this issue - and both sides are very passionate about what they stand for.

IMHO, the AWS is a good alternative for someone to have a horse, of any breed, that is registered. It is always easier to sell a registered horse, even if it IS a draft/arab cross. So what?! Those of you who dont want an AW horse, don't buy them, but also, don't knock them. What is perfect for one horseperson is totally unnacceptable for another.

My stallion is a branded Trakehner stallion, but we also had him approved Canadian Sport Horse, and American Warmblood. This gives those breeders of American Warmbloods easy access to european bloodlines, but also it keeps their programs "local" and patriotic.

I think there are a lot of people trying to do good things with the AWS, it just needs more time...

We have a filly on our farm that we bred here, but both parents are imports, so the only registry we can put her with is the Westfalen Verband in Germany...it is a little ungratifying that she can not be labeled an official "American" bred horse, because she will have German papers, but that is the price we have to pay sometimes.

The European registries do what they can, and the American registries do what they can...

Would anyone NOT breed to a stallion just because he was approved with the AWS?? It doesn't detract from their quality at ALL...so to be prejudiced against an entire registry because of mixed blood, doesn't make any sense.

www.millerdressage.com (http://www.millerdressage.com)

Best post yet.:D

[risingstarfarm]

We have a filly on our farm that we bred here, but both parents are imports, so the only registry we can put her with is the Westfalen Verband in Germany...it is a little ungratifying that she can not be labeled an official "American" bred horse, because she will have German papers, but that is the price we have to pay sometimes.

www.millerdressage.com (http://www.millerdressage.com)

I'm a little confused. I went to your website (LOVELY horses by the way!) and saw that the "filly" was actually born in 2004. If she was registered in her natal foal book - as a 3 year old, she is eligible for the Main Mare Book of LOTS of WB registries.

Also, does the Westphalian registry inspect in the US (I'm sorry if I'm showing my ignorance)? I was under the impression that other registries recognized the Westphalians, offering additonal options.

[carolprudm]

Honestly, I'm sorry but what sort of snarky comment is that? It makes no difference to me one way or the other personally, I thought this was about trying to find a way to allow those registries to attain some credibility and be able to be seen on an equal level to others.

I'm sure it is generally accepted that there is a massive credibility and image problem with the term "American WB" which is a crying shame and need not be the case. I don't think shooting the messenger is going to help the situation any....
Sorry, but the term warmblood, originally did mean a type of horse produced by breeding hot (TB or Arab) x cold (draft). The Europeans did NOT invent the term.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

I'm a little confused. I went to your website (LOVELY horses by the way!) and saw that the "filly" was actually born in 2004. If she was registered in her natal foal book - as a 3 year old, she is eligible for the Main Mare Book of LOTS of WB registries.

Also, does the Westphalian registry inspect in the US (I'm sorry if I'm showing my ignorance)? I was under the impression that other registries recognized the Westphalians, offering additonal options.

Unfortunately, because her mother is a hanoverian, her sire is ONLY approved westfalen, and has since dropped off the face of the earth (no scores since the Pan Am games, no owner contacts, no breeding information etc, he was sold and apparently no one in the US has any idea as to where!)

So because he is only approved westfalen, we have to fly the inspector in just to come to our farm, to inspect the dam (hanoverian) to put HER in the main mare book, and then inspect the filly, to put her in the main mare book as well. If the dam dies or is otherwise unable to be inspected this summer, the filly won't be able to be registered or accepted anywhere!

[STF]

I dont know if someone brought this up or not, but another issue with the AWS registry is that not a lot of other registries will reconize their papers. So...... if I breed a nice filly and someone wants to buy it for a broodmare, it would be limited only to AWS = limiting potential buyers.
With other registries, a lot of them recongize each other and that means mares can go into the stud books of other registries without an issue once inspected and the foals can hold full papers.
When and until AWS is on level playing ground with the 'big 7", it is conter productive to registrer any breed stock with them.
I LOVE the idea of the AWS. American NEEDS it, but there are still a lot of issues tht need to be ironed out from a breeding standpoint.
Im sorry if I offend anyone, but this is my honest opinion and feelings from a stallion owner and breeder standpoint.

[STF]

My stallion is a branded Trakehner stallion, but we also had him approved Canadian Sport Horse, and American Warmblood. This gives those breeders of American Warmbloods easy access to european bloodlines, but also it keeps their programs "local" and patriotic.



Our stallion is also "approved AWS".......... and also other registries. But as I stated above, as a breeder, the AWS limits the ability for breed stock to cross into other books. I love the idea of an American based registry but I think there are some major points that need to be addressed.

[DownYonder]

Unfortunately, because her mother is a hanoverian, her sire is ONLY approved westfalen, and has since dropped off the face of the earth (no scores since the Pan Am games, no owner contacts, no breeding information etc, he was sold and apparently no one in the US has any idea as to where!)

So because he is only approved westfalen, we have to fly the inspector in just to come to our farm, to inspect the dam (hanoverian) to put HER in the main mare book, and then inspect the filly, to put her in the main mare book as well. If the dam dies or is otherwise unable to be inspected this summer, the filly won't be able to be registered or accepted anywhere!

If the stallion was fully approved for Westfalen breeding and had met his stallion performance requirements, Oldenburg (GOV) would probably register the filly. They would of course have to inspect the dam first, but if she has full papers from AHS or the Hanoverian Verband, then she is eligible for the Oldenburg Main Mare Book. Didn't you say you are in Arizona? I believe the inspector may be going there this fall. You can get more info at http://www.oldenburghorse.com/.

[Gucci Cowgirl]

thanks for the information - I spent probably 2 weeks on the phone and e-mail trying to get this filly approved with an easier registry than the Westfalen, but I kept hitting walls!

the dam is a States Premium mare, so i know she will be accepted into whichever registry we need to present her to, in oreder to get the filly registered and approved for breeding.

The problem with Oldenburg, is that there are 10 inspection sites in California, and not one in Arizona...we don't want to have to drive both girls 7 hours away and then pay over a thousand dollars to have them both inspected - it is even more difficult than just flying the westfalen inspector here!

[DownYonder]

thanks for the information - I spent probably 2 weeks on the phone and e-mail trying to get this filly approved with an easier registry than the Westfalen, but I kept hitting walls!

the dam is a States Premium mare, so i know she will be accepted into whichever registry we need to present her to, in oreder to get the filly registered and approved for breeding.

The problem with Oldenburg, is that there are 10 inspection sites in California, and not one in Arizona...we don't want to have to drive both girls 7 hours away and then pay over a thousand dollars to have them both inspected - it is even more difficult than just flying the westfalen inspector here!

As I said earlier, Arizona is on the tentative schedule for this fall. I don't know if it is definite or not as it probably depends on how many horses there are to inspect. Holly is out on tour now but should be back in the office toward the end of the month - I expect that they will set the fall schedule then to hit the places they missed during the summer tours. It's just another option for you - it may work better in your case to fly the Westfalen inspector there.

[DashofBrandy]

Anyplace- None of my comments were directed at you personally. I am sorry if you had taken any offence to them. Please don't.

[Tasker]

Please tell me it isn't another name for a Clydesdale/TB cross. I saw an ad for a horse and asked for pix and he looks just like a Clyde.

Well, our horses are registered with the AWR. They are a blend of Hanoverian, Oldenburg, Westphalian and TB (steeplechase type) lines. Some are 1/2 TB, others are 3/8ths and still others are a 1/4...it would depend on what needed to be added from the previous generation.

I think the best way to find out what a horse is in actuality is by ASKING the seller.

[Stacie]

If the stallion was fully approved for Westfalen breeding and had met his stallion performance requirements, Oldenburg (GOV) would probably register the filly. They would of course have to inspect the dam first, but if she has full papers from AHS or the Hanoverian Verband, then she is eligible for the Oldenburg Main Mare Book. Didn't you say you are in Arizona? I believe the inspector may be going there this fall. You can get more info at http://www.oldenburghorse.com/.
From the website, it appears that the mare must have been inspected by GOV before she was bred and the owner's must be members throughout the entire pregnancy through inspection. Can someone tell me if I am reading the site correctly?

[Jaegermonster]

Would anyone NOT breed to a stallion just because he was approved with the AWS?? It doesn't detract from their quality at ALL...so to be prejudiced against an entire registry because of mixed blood, doesn't make any sense.

www.millerdressage.com (http://www.millerdressage.com)

I would not breed to an AWS stallion IF that was the only registry or society or whatever he was approved by. That would indicate to me that he is not nice enough/worthy of being approved or accepted into a more respected book or registry.
My experience with AWS/AWR has not been that great, I have found (as have many others) they will approve just about anything so you have to wade thru a lot of crap to get to the nice stuff in there.
If a stallion was AWS approved, but it was secondary to some other more "established"/"credible"/"respected" organizations, then I would consider him.
There are tons of AWS stallions (and horses period) that are there because they can't get into any other registries or books.
grabbing my fire extinguisher now...........

[not again]

And there are plenty of breeders who prefer the AWS/AWR and plenty of customers for their stock. No flames, just different strokes for different folks.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I would not breed to an AWS stallion IF that was the only registry or society or whatever he was approved by. That would indicate to me that he is not nice enough/worthy of being approved or accepted into a more respected book or registry.

and sometimes the European registries just plain OOPS, :cool: and their owners get tired of playing the political game, decline to re-present them or begin a lawsuit like some of the European stallion owners do to get their stallions approved. And sometimes the lack of European approval is the best thing to ever happen to a stallion. :winkgrin:

[Jaegermonster]

And that is also why a lot more should go into a breeding decision than what fancy letters are on some papers that a stallion owner may have.
I bred my TB mare to a TB stallion for a sporthorse baby, so that tells you where I stand on warmbloods or draft crosses or whatever else for that matter :)

[spacely]

And sometimes the lack of European approval is the best thing to ever happen to a stallion.

I'd disagree. There's probably a very good reason that stallion was turned down by the Euro registries.

Like Jaegermonster said, if the horse only has AWS/R approval, I would never consider him. If the approval is secondary to other good Euro registries, then I don't care. To me, the secondary approval is more of business decision to potentially attract more mares.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I'd disagree. There's probably a very good reason that stallion was turned down by the Euro registries.

I was told by the Belgian Inspector that they would have approved Nevada in Belgium, but they questioned how he would cross with our lighter mare base. Quite nicely, thank-you! ;)

[Jaegermonster]

I'd disagree. There's probably a very good reason that stallion was turned down by the Euro registries.

Like Jaegermonster said, if the horse only has AWS/R approval, I would never consider him. If the approval is secondary to other good Euro registries, then I don't care. To me, the secondary approval is more of business decision to potentially attract more mares.

That was exactly my point. I didn't say there weren't any decent breeding stock in those societies/registries, because there are. You just have to really look because in my experience they will accept just about anything. That is only my experience in my area, but it is still my experience.
I just would want a more consistent "seal of approval" if you will, than just AWS/R, if I were a warmblood person.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The AWS will definitely not accept anything for APPROVAL, but like the RHPSI, they do issue paperwork for pedigree documentation, and awards on most horses presented.

[Fairview Horse Center]

That was exactly my point. I didn't say there weren't any decent breeding stock in those societies/registries, because there are. You just have to really look

That is true of all registries. Just flip thru the Chronicle stallion issue. Almost all are European licensed, yet probably less than a handful that I would even consider breeding to. That goes for European based stallions too.

[Black Forest]

Well, call me jaded but I have slowly but surely reached a point where if I really liked a stallion and considered him perfect for myself and my mare and was breeding for myself and for a competition horse I'd breed to him if he was registered with the My-Fluffy-Pony-Society-Of-Planet-Zob (MFPSOPZ)

I wouldn't call the resulting offspring a Black Forest Warmblood though.

[Jaegermonster]

That is true of all registries. Just flip thru the Chronicle stallion issue. Almost all are European licensed, yet probably less than a handful that I would even consider breeding to. That goes for European based stallions too.

I agree, again, I don't have a warmblood, I have TB's. I am not one of those that thinks just because it comes from Europe it's better. Just as I said, there should be a lot more going into the breeding decision that what fancy letters it has on the papers hanging on the wall. But if that were the case there would be no slaughter or horses starving in pastures, but that's all for other threads.

I was just reading www.fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com and the part about the AWS (about halfway down) was pretty good, IMHO. Overall, that guy has it pretty well figured out.

[Luckydonkey]

Well, call me jaded but I have slowly but surely reached a point where if I really liked a stallion and considered him perfect for myself and my mare and was breeding for myself and for a competition horse I'd breed to him if he was registered with the My-Fluffy-Pony-Society-Of-Planet-Zob (MFPSOPZ)

I wouldn't call the resulting offspring a Black Forest Warmblood though.

Now this is a post I can agree with , LOL!

[~Freedom~]

To me breed/registry prejudice is on par to racism.

[OakesBrae]

No, silly, he'd be a My-Fluffy-Pony-Society-Of-Planet-Zob Warmblood. Duh. :lol:

I think we can argue forever about the origins of the word warmblood and what it means. Looking back at history, I believe it to be different than what many breeders on this thread seem to think, and I also have my personal thoughts about *why* people get up at arms about crossbreds etc. that end up with the title of warmblood.

Regardless, don't let a breed registry turn you off of a really good horse.