Why should I pay $10,000 for a weanling? [Archive]

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 1, 2007, 06:17 PM

Okay this is for all you horse breeders/buyers out there. I was looking at all the horsey websites (equine.com, agdirect, warmbloods-for-sale, etc.) last night for Hanoverian weanlings. I am not really looking to buy, but I am curious to see market prices, demand trends, and basically what is out there to purchase. Personally, I will probably go to Europe for my next horse, but I will look locally first just to see if I can't save myself the trip.

Here is my question(s): why are weanlings so expensive? The average price out there is $8500-$14500. I found one for $15,000 that was a palomino and I can understand that (rare color = high demand = price), but there are so many average bred, nothing fancy babies going for 10 grand! I just don't see how any breeder can sell these babies for that much money.

Am I missing something? Can anyone shed light on these prices? Why would I want to spend $10,000 on a weanling in the states (which will probably be out of a TB dam) when I can fly to the European sales and find something older, out of a warmblood mare with equally good bloodlines as that of the sire. The babies I saw with two warmblood parents started at $12,000 and went to $20,000 - Amazing!

From a buyer's prospective, it seems a lot of money to pay for a gamble. You have to wait 3 years for the weanling to grow up and that is of course assuming he/she doesn't kill themselves in the process. Also, every breeder seems to think their babies are 10 movers! Every ad, "This is a fabulous mover," "fantastic overstep," "huge trot," "natural changes" - well of course the baby is going to be a good mover! He only weighs 200 pounds, with legs longer in proportion to their body, and their backs are short. Half of those babies are going to lose that movement in a year or two when their bodies fill out.

Anyway, not trying to start a fight and please don't attack me, I am just venting and would like some learned opinions on the subject. Maybe people are willing to pay these prices and I just need to up my budget accordingly. :)

Dazednconfused

Aug. 1, 2007, 06:24 PM

Ah, but the tradeoff is (even if you have to feed it for three years and train it) - usually they're not ruined, don't have bad habits, and are a lot sounder (and you can feed it the way you want to avoid joint issues, OCD, ephysitis, etc)

Also, just because they're asking that price for it doesn't mean they'll get it or that it's not negotiable (by a little OR a lot, you never know). They're probably trying to recoup costs on the stud fee, ultrasounds, what it's taken to raise them so far and make a profit (which varies widely, of course, too).

Formosus

Aug. 1, 2007, 06:27 PM

I can't answer your main question because I don't know, but I have another question for you:
"What do you think importing a young horse from europe will cost you?" Sounds to me that buying locally has to be more cost effective. Isn't the big expense in have horses the boarding and the training?
Looking forward to the answers you will get.

Equibrit

Aug. 1, 2007, 06:30 PM

.............and the rest of the story is...........you have to transport them here!

There ARE a lot of VERY NICE weanlings (dam & sire WB) available here reasonably - you just haven't found them yet.

You will pay one way or the other.

Sonesta

Aug. 1, 2007, 06:34 PM

First, you have to get that foal in Europe over hear. That's gonna cost you another $7-8 thousand. So, figure that in.

Then, consider that costs for breeding in the U.S. are WAY more expensive than in Europe. On AVERAGE, I have $10,000 into a foal by the time it reaches January of the year after it is born.

So, the question to me is: Do you want/expect the U.S. breeder to lose money in order to provide buyers with inexpensive horses?

Molly Malone

Aug. 1, 2007, 06:35 PM

because breeders breed as a business. Name one other business that barely breaks even and still remains in business. $10,000 for a weanling is average - you can get really nice ones for $7500 too, but those breeders are hurting.

Sheesh - how much more blood do you (not you personally) want?

Oakstable

Aug. 1, 2007, 06:40 PM

Purchasing here gives you the opportunity to visit more than once. You will see how it is raised. You deal directly with the breeder, not an agent.

The decline of the dollar vs. the Euro makes it much cheaper to shop in NA.

Most breeders know others in their same region so you can visit several farms.

Oakstable

Aug. 1, 2007, 06:51 PM

BTW, nice QH foals go for more $ than WB foals.

OP, what kind of price did you have in mind?

A formula like triple the stud fee and a little more?

class

Aug. 1, 2007, 06:51 PM

the reason i bought my weanling as a weanling is because he would probably be around $20-30k as a three year old and then i really wouldn't be able to afford him! plus, it costs me way less than $10k per year to raise him.

MistyBlue

Aug. 1, 2007, 07:00 PM

I personally wouldn't pay that for a weanling...but some do. Breeding isn't an exact science and an exact market...it's tough to properly price weanlings and it's tough to recoup what the breeder has into them. What they're marketed for isn't always what they sell for, hence why many places and sites have a lot of yearlings still available. However, others do sell for those prices...the names in the pedigree, how well they match and what potential the foal came out with are huge factors. Some pop out with *just* the right blending of dam and sire lines and show it well, others have awkward looks and might go through a fugly stage before smoothing out and an unfortunate few from great lines may come out looking like the teaser stallion somehow got to the mare first. :winkgrin:
I have seen a few weanlings advertised that just scream "Wow! Look at me!" Those get snapped up pretty quickly.

graystonefarm

Aug. 1, 2007, 07:06 PM

German breeders will pay $30,000+ for quality weanling so if you think you're going to get a "deal" in europe, you're in for a very rude awakening, epecially with our dollar in such a weak state. ;)

Hillside H Ranch

Aug. 1, 2007, 07:15 PM

Well, I'm a breeder who doesn't think pricing young-stock by "what you have in them" is a good pricing structure. Sure, you have to take it into consideration, but just because it cost you XXXX to get that baby on the ground doesn't mean that is what it is "worth" in the market.
That being said, I'm probably one of the breeders that you think sets prices too high:)! I sell in-utero foals from 5k-9k (the 9k was this year, but it is a super pedigree). I usually sell foals/weanlings for 7500-12k. I base that upon pedigree, including what close relatives have done in the show ring, conformation, movement and (to a certain extent) what comparable foals are going for in the current market. I *knock on wood* haven't had a problem selling my young stock at these prices. I will negotiate (slightly) to a show home that is going to get that horse out and about. I can tell you that in my case the prices don't increase a huge amount from weanling to yearling age, unless that young horse does something spectacular in the show ring.

Oakstable

Aug. 1, 2007, 07:16 PM

I know a breeder who was doing frozen breedings years back when it was first available, and she had a nice Dutch mare. She was getting $15K consistently for her foals. They usually scored very highly in the keurings. At the time, the dollar was really strong and transportation from Europe probably wasn't as much an issue as it is today.

Norsire

Aug. 1, 2007, 07:16 PM

GreekDressageQueen don't forget to add in all the cost to import your new horse of about 10,000 on top of what you paid for the horse too! If you buy in the USA and ship from one coast to another top cost is about 2,500, do do all the math first.;)

Hillside H Ranch

Aug. 1, 2007, 07:21 PM

I have a question for the OP; and this isn't meant as an attack or flaming at all, I'm genuinely interested in getting the buyer's perspective.
Why go to Europe to buy? Are you looking for a particular bloodline that just isn't available here, or do you genuinely feel that the quality is that much better? Are there other factors I'm not considering?
Feel free to PM me if you don't want to toss those answers out here!

NotaDQinMD

Aug. 1, 2007, 07:28 PM

From a buyers perspect, it's a gamble... however, for someone like me who can't afford 30k or more for a quality 3 or 4 year old... it's my best and only chance. 10k seems reasonable to me... esp when you figure often a sizable chunk of that goes for stud fees, vet bills, and mare & foal care. I spend almost 10k a year to board my horse... so I couldn't breed my own for 10k.
That's one way to look at it. Just my thoughts! Trish

Tiki

Aug. 1, 2007, 07:49 PM

I think you are also missing the point that these are not just random breedings with breeders hoping that maybe they'll turn out OK and maybe be rideable and trainable.

Rideability, trainability and disposition are heritable and by choosing bloodlines carefully, and choosing a good match for your mare, you can produce a top quality sporthorse.

Actually, the absolute best bargain in the world is a top class foal bred in the USA. There is absolutely no way that a breeder here can ever get the price for a top quality foal that it would bring in Europe.

Someone said $30,000 and up. I know of one breeder/foal buyer in Europe who says he buys 50-60 foals a year for $50,000 - $60,000 in Europe. We could NEVER get those kinds of prices.

Dressage-ryder

Aug. 1, 2007, 07:54 PM

100% Agree with Tiki... very true!

ThatScaryChick

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:01 PM

Honestly I wouldn't pay $10,000 for a weanling, but I also wouldn't go overseas and purchase one because after buying and shipping it would be about the same. I see many good looking babies in the US for a lot less then 10 grand, just like I see a bunch for more then 10. You just have to shop around.

Linda

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:07 PM

Keep looking in the US.

I bought my horse at 8 months old for 4K.

He was the top scoring colt at his warmblood inspection - Rheinlander.

He IS out of a TB mare and it's really served him well The breeder initially wanted 6K but dropped the price because she had new foals on the way and no room to put them. Look around - you never know what the circumstances may be that will help make the deal for you.

This was a small breeder who, at the time, was just getting known. Her stallion was young, but doing well in dressage albeit at the lower levels at the time. I liked how this horse moved and I LOVED both his and the stallions temperment. Temperment is a huge thing for me so there was no way I was going to buy a horse off a website without meeting both the foal and the stallion (and hopefully the dam too).

He's just turning 4 and has a lot of suspension in his gaits and a terrific attitude. I bet I could get a ton of $$ for him but theres no way I'd sell him! Oh and by the way, he's 17 hands now. The sire and dam were 16'2 so go figure!

When I found him, I had spent months going through warmblood websites, breeder websites and talking to people who had bought young horses from these breeders. From that, I narrowed the search down to three breeders - all out of state. I went and visited each one, met the stallion, met the foals and other (older) offspring, talked to owners of some of thee offspring and made my choice.

If you are looking overseas, you won't necessarily have that luxury.

Its a lot of work to find the "right one" - but a fun project and in my case, I got a terrific terrific youngster.

You might try checking out the warmblood inspection results in the US and look up the owners. I had success with a small breeder who had a limited operation but great results from her breeding. The warmblood inspection results will at least get you looking at foals who have good possibilities.

ahf

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:18 PM

Later this month there will be an auction of 300 foals in Germany (Verden - Hanoverian auction). Some of them will go for as low as 3000 euros ($4100). Some of them will go for much, much, more - the top seller last year was 85,000 e ($116,114.35).

That 3000 euros is not the end of the story. There are auction fees and a buyer's premium. Then you have to get it to were you are. Hopefully, you can share a pallet with two other foals. Est. cost $6500 to Newburgh, NY. THen you have to van in in a BOX stall to the south. $1800.

That's $12,600 for one of the LOWEST priced foals at the sale. One that I would not likely want in my barn, unless I had been to the farm, thought it was having an off day, and was chock-full of bloodlines we don't ahve here.

But by all means, you say you are going to buy there anyway, so have at it.

And you imagine what the Kiwis or the Aussies have to deal with?

Ashemont

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:21 PM

The babies I saw with two warmblood parents started at $12,000 and went to $20,000 - Amazing!

You didn't look at ours, obviously. We have produced Premium foals for over 20 years for under $10k. We feel that everyone should be able to afford a top quality horse if they're willing to raise a baby ;)

ahf

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:27 PM

I was wrong. The top seller at the foal auction last year was NOT 85,000 euros.

It was 105,000 ($143,435.25)

acottongim

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:28 PM

I know one breeder of VERY nice WBs that has the majority of their stock priced at around $7000 for the weanlings, then goes up on average $1000 - $2000 per year after that. Now, the ones that are VERY nice, or out of good/differnt lines, or are an "odd" color, etc may be priced higher - also the ones that he isn't truely interested in selling ;). So yes, there are many foals that are around $10,000, but that is not much more than what it takes to get them on the ground, and most breeders aren't making a killing on their sales. Frankly, if you look at the TOTAL costs of buying the same quality foal in Europe you are going to spend at least as much, if not more to import to the states.

TKR

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:43 PM

Regarding the comment about the domestic wb foals being o/o Thoroughbred mares --
First of all, a good mare is a good mare and the reason the wb registries are still accepting Thoroughbreds (mares and stallions) is because they need them and what they bring to the table. Just because the mare is a "wb" doesn't automatically mean she's better or exceptional, and a wb mare probably has some TB lines.

Have you priced the top Thoroughbred weanlings? The wb weanlings would pale beside the value of the top TB weanlings and yearlings, LOL.

I just had a foal go to an inspection where less than 50% of the foals presented were "Premium" or highest quality. He is out of a Thoroughbred mare and he was one of the Premium foals. Not all the wb mares who had foals presented went "Premium", so your remark lacks foundation as quality is not limited to wb mares or TB mares, it's based on individuals. The mare base here is certainly heavy on the TBs, but there are many quality TB individuals out there (mares) who would do well in Europe, also. They just tend to use the TB approved stallions there, whose foals are priced up there with their wb counterparts. JMHO!
PennyG

pwynnnorman

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:47 PM

16.3h, Han, age 3, 10 mover, w-t-c u/s: $28,000.
16.3h, imported Han, age 14, confirmed I-1, shown 3rd by A/O: $38,000.
16.0h, TB, age 11, competing Novice and ready to move up: $10,000.
16.2h, Irish draught, age 4, suited for eventing, jumping, foxhunting: $16,000.
16.2h, Canadian WB, hunted 6 seasons, evented novice, shown 1st lvl: $22,000.
Flashy, DWB, age 8, lvl 5 jumper: $38,500.
16.1h, TB/WB, mare, very sweet, suitable A circuit conformation hunter, childrens, etc.: $22,000.
17.0h, Han/SF, age 5, going quietly u/s, eq/event/LL dressage: $18,000.All from last week's COTH.

The question isn't why someone would pay $10K for a weanling. The question is what percent of $10K weanlings every do diddly squat compared to the legions of horses out there which are available to do exactly what their 80% lower level riders need them to do immediately.

The flip-flops on this BB stun me sometimes. One week, no one is selling weanlings--and everyone has a ton of good reasons as to why. Then the next week its: "Oh, yeah, sure. We sell five-figure babies all the time."

To whom?

I'm sorry, but I'm calling your bluff, some of you folks. What do your $10K weanlings become? Probably the mostly under $25K horses being sold in places like COTH, I suspect.

Dream on, folks. There just are not enough people out there willing to pay that much and wait, and then pay more (to board it) and then more (to get it trained) and then barely do diddly squat with it. Even pros and upper level rides simply don't exist in significant numbers such that THEY can wait (with their careers) or afford to wait (with their wallets). So, cutting out the friends, the family members, the business associates, the collectors, the partial trades, the pay-me-laters, the asking-this-but-will-take-that, what's left?

Especially with colts, for heavens sake! Who the heck REALLY cares (other than collectors who want to brag about pedigree) what a future gelding's breeding is? Why in heavens name would someone pay a premium for such a prospect--unless, of course, they were planning to do BIG THINGS with it and want to be as sure as possible that it will be capable of doing so.

But even THEN, they can still find superbly bred two- and three-year-olds selling for barely a few thousand more...everywhere! Now, granted, if you jsut want to buy from a big name and be able to say so, OK, that's your choice. But most folks looking for something that's going to perform for them someday are shrewd enough to know its a buyer's market and a well-bred future gelding ain't worth the price of an already winning, ready to move on, immediately have fun something else.

Indeed, I remember that thread where someone asked how many breeders had produced horses that got into the upper levels or something like that. Hardly anyone responded! What ARE you producing these $10K weanlings TO DO, people? Just pretend to produce more $10K weanlings that don't sell until they are $12K three-year-olds?

Sorry. I'm short-tempered tonight, but I, as usual, feel like the boy in the crowd watching the emperor go by, buck naked.

coriander

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:52 PM

And here I thought the emperor was showing off new clothes. ;)

Oakstable

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:54 PM

I absolutely agree with Penny. My Coromino/TB filly went premium with GOV and it is exactly the same people that judge all over Germany. The jury is looking at an individual, and going by their breed standard.

I have buyers who prefer a WB/TB cross.

pwynnnorman

Aug. 1, 2007, 08:56 PM

Daydream Believer

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:05 PM

Wynn...you are in rare form tonight!

I honestly think the American Sport horse market is in for a rude wakeup call in the next decade. I see the demographic trends starting now that are going to make it tougher and tougher to sell young untrained horses in the future.

Oakstable

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:13 PM

I didn't see any breeder saying he/she sells five figure weanlings all the time.

A good weanling should sell for more than it costs to create it. Breeders are taking losses all the time on average individuals or horses who ran up a big vet bill before being sold.

Unfortunately in the horse business, sellers have to put out a figure that starts the conversation, with the expectation that the offer will be below the list price.

So maybe the foal advertised at $10K goes down the road for $8K.

I'd sure like to see American buyers support American breeders, who take the risks breeding their mares.

buschkn

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:19 PM

I bought one for more than that. He is extremely well bred, has excellent confo and presence, and I DO hope to do big things with him, along with the one we foaled out (bought mare in utero). I hope he will be a stallion prospect, but if not, then he at least has the bloodlines and athleticism to indicate he will be successful in my chosen sport. IF he grows up as I hope and IF he doesn't get hurt along the way, etc etc, he will be the sort of horse that I wouldn't be able to afford as a 3-4yo. Big gamble, but I'm trying it out. I'll let you know in a few years if it paid off.

In general, though, I do see a lot of fairly average horses (foals and adults) offered for a lot more money than seems reasonable in many cases. If all I wanted was a sane fun ammy mount, I would definitely spend my money on something already going. But babies are irresistable! :)

pwynnnorman

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:25 PM

Zactly, DB! Europe has such a huge horse culture--look at their upper level events: Grand Prix with big money every weekend, CCI***s, dressage shows withe the FEI levels packed with horses...and a ton of young trainers aching to take on quality beasties. And advertisers and sponsors and regional, national and international championships every time you turn around...and all within 6-10 hours drive, I gather (not terribly sure about that, but CLOSE anyway!).

Meanwhile, here we are, experiencing future shock over the price of gas, which is about to impact everything from the price of hay and grain to the entries at shows. And we're already notorious as a "just do it" nation, not willing to wait, learn, grow. Heck, if we were, dressage ponies would be a booming market. And what about pony jumpers? Still nowhere near the opportunities in Europe,alas. We just don't HAVE kids like that!

And a lot of the kind of kids we DO have have long since become adults now, too.

We just are not a weanling culture. We're an aging group of mainly ladies who can't ride our ways out of a paper bag, much less rodeo around with a rambunctious weaner--or yearling or two-year-old.

Who is handling all of these $10K weanlings, BTW? Or are they jsut sitting around in fields, getting rank as they wait to grow up? Egad! And THEN whose going to handle them?

Of course not. Those weanlings aren't scattered around, here and there, in this and that barn. They are still sitting out in their breeder's fields--maybe under this or that arrangement with the occasional buyer...but they are still out in the fields. Except, of course, when they get hauled in and cleaned up to attend this or that inspection where maybe four owners with multiple beasties actually show up. And after they get bronze, silver, gold, platinum or uranium status, then what happens to them? The colts get gelded, go through their terrible twosies stage where they look and act like crap, and then come out the other end worth barely more than they went into it because they are slow-maturing WBs after all. (Remember that part? Something else that doesn't get brought up much, does it? Indeed, someone noted how some folks LIKE having a bit of TB in there--maybe because they mature more quickly, among other things?)

Sooo, what DO you think your $10K weanling will be worth a year later? Two years? Three? Given the cost of board, etc., it shoudl be worth at least $40K (more really) by the time it is four, right?

Ya see many $40K four-year-olds out there? How many of us are riding $40K worth of flesh into the ring these days? HUNTERS, sure, but correct me if I'm wrong here: most of you aren't breeding for hunters, are you? What are you breeding for, BTW? Dressage? Jumpers? What sport is that $10K weanling supposed to be headed for anyway? And on what do you base that claim (which, one assumes, is related to why it's $10K, yes?).

Molly Malone

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:34 PM

fine

we'll all stop breeding then, and you can all sod off to Europe and buy whatever the heck you can find for $5000 and import it for a further $10,000.

No, wait. You can all buy a top class broodmare (20K) keep her for two years (oh, wait, buy a farm first - mortgage payments of $20K for 2 years) say 4K, get her in foal - cross fingers she takes first go with frozen 3K - pay a stud fee of $2K and hope and pray you get to 6 months without a mishap to the foal

And you think 10K is out of line.

I really don't know why breeders bother.

Oakstable

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:37 PM

I think it is much harder to sell a weaner/yearling now. People want to buy a horse they can ride or close to riding age.

If enough breeders get tired of American buyers lack of support, the breeders will throw in the towel. Then the buyers will have to go to Europe or give up the sport.

I'm not saying Americans should buy inferior American youngsters, but there are many, many quality horses being bred in NA. We've come a long way in the last 20 years.

pwynnnorman

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:48 PM

A good weanling should sell for more than it costs to create it. Breeders are taking losses all the time on average individuals or horses who ran up a big vet bill before being sold.

Should?

What does a buyer care what should be? If someone was nutty enough to sink big bucks into something that they can't get those bucks back out of, that's not the buyer's problem.

It's just outrageous to think that because you spent so much, you should reap so much. Indeed, THAT is why so many go to Europe, too: overpricing over here!

And we shoot ourselves in the foot with all this nonsense, in fact. Who knows what the real market is for this or that type of horse (outside of western and hunters, that is)? We're so busy shoring up our egos that we can make no progress whatsoever on collecting the kind of data that would legitimize what we're asking for our products.

I think that until the American breeder can get serious enough to swallow her ego, screw the "I must get this because I paid that," have an honest dialog about what gets or could get babies sold, and then use that information to create and sustain real markets (for stud fees as well as for babies), things will only get worse for us.

Seriously--not critically, honestly! Please, TELL ME WHO BOUGHT YOUR WEANLING AND WHY??? If twenty people who sold weanlings could describe the circumstances, imagine how valuable those experiences could be? For example, can we profile those buyers? What did they have in common? What did the weanlings have in common? What can we learn from collecting (honest) data about our sales (like REAL markets do?).

I know, I know: now I'M dreaming.

rideagoldenpony

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:55 PM

If you've got an importer that allows you to purchase a quality WB in Europe AND bring it home all for under $10k, then BY ALL MEANS, PLEASE send me his contact info!

The exchange rate is in the toilet. Import and quarantine costs are astronomical, and continually rising. Be sure you do all the math before you write off the American bred babies.

Hillside H Ranch

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:57 PM

Wow, Pwynn, a little vitriolic tonight! I am a new breeder, haven't really been doing it that long and I respect most of you experienced breeders and have learned a lot from you (and shouldn't we all be on the same team here?). But it seems like you are calling some of us liars, saying that we haven't actually sold young stock for what we claim have and I'm not sure how you can actually say that since you aren't there when the sale is made. Anyway, I will admit that I (in the not too distant past) had a weanling priced at 10k and it didn't sell for the 5 months I had it advertised. I will also say that I only have 2-4 foals/year (this year actually zero) so I definitely don't fall into the professional category, only hobby, so I can sit on my young stock for quite a while if they don't sell for what I want them to. That being said you want to know who's buying, so I sold my most recent in-utero to a Grand Prix rider (not international level, though) who does some training a little breeding of her own. The colt I sold prior to that was also sold in-utero (but not for 10k, for a little more than half that) to an amateur adult woman who keeps her horses at home and works with a professional trainer. Do I hope that my babies go on to appreciate in value each year, becoming worth more and more and proving their worth is the show ring? You bet! But just because it was a 10k weanling or a 30k dollar yearling doesn't mean each year it is worth more and more. Injury, mishandling, maybe not being as "nice" a horse as we thought when it was younger, etc. all take a toll on future value. But to be blunt, what may or may not happen in the future doesn't have any bearing on how I price a young horse.
And to answer another question I focus primarily on breeding jumpers, but occassionally my young horses are bought by people with other interests.

vineyridge

Aug. 1, 2007, 09:58 PM

pwynnnorman

Aug. 1, 2007, 10:16 PM

Maybe what we need in this country are more high quality auctions of high quality horses, including babies, to help set rational prices.

If the Europeans can do it, so can the Americans and Canadians.

The last big sale at Frying Pan Park was close to a disaster, I've been told.

Viney, y'know, that's exactly what was in the back of my mind--and the source of my "vitriol" tonight, in fact.

In other horse sports/breeds, auctions DO help establish legitimate prices. You can look to this or that sale (auction) and see what this or that stallion or line's youngsters went for. But in our sports, auctions are a crock. I continue to reel from what I've learned about behind-the-scenes finagling at our auctions! Whether it's just a poorly promoted auction (so it didn't attract a representative group of buyers) or unhealthy breeder/trainer/buyer relationships impinge on the accuracy of values, we just can't get our acts together to develop real, unfettered sales venues/breed inspections/registry databases that can be used to PLAN and make decisions (like that popular one: Who are you going to breed to next year? And, more importantly, WHY?).

How are breeding and pricing decisions made among us? Me, based on the yearling (I don't bother assessing weanlings except for cuteness), I decide what I might reasonably expect to get for the creature at age three or four and then decide whether, given that sm, it'll be worth it for me (in terms of profit) to keep until that age. If it isn't worth it, I price it to get rid of sooner rather than later. There's nothing like producing a baby which will still be worth only $5K by the time it's three because it's too plain or could end up the wrong size or has some significant conformation trait or temperament issue. If it is worth it, I price it so only someone as serious as I about its future value will have any interest in it.

Now, am I sure that what I just wrote actually makes sense? Not really! It's that lack of sure-ness that gets me riled.

BTW, Hillside, I can easily SEE how you make your decisions--it is quite clear how you planned to produce foals with innate value because you proceed to market them unquestionably based on that. You've got a LOT to say about what you've produced...and I know there are breeders out there like you, too...but just not that many, alas! Like the OP (I think) stated, most pricey babies are marketed as great movers, good temperament, big size--nebulous things which may or may not pan out. Where the real value is is hard to see (in them). Indeed, an interesting intellectual exercise would be to ask "I,f an $8K, weanling is by a stallion who has produced a slew of verifiable high level winners out of a mare that either produced similarly or performed similarly, then how much should a weanling be worth who cannot offer such a heft on a catalog page?"

rideagoldenpony

Aug. 1, 2007, 10:16 PM

lauriep

Aug. 1, 2007, 10:22 PM

Geez, pwynn, a little touchy tonight, aren't we? Just because YOU don't see these animals progressing and becoming something, doesn't mean that they don't.

I can only speak to the hunter/HB industry, but weanlings REGULARLY sell for 10K and UP, and no one bats an eye. We picked one up this week, as a matter of fact, a lovely colt who is headed for a show career and whose owner is delighted with him. We also have a barn full of yearlings and 2 y.o.s who cost that and more when they were bought. I handle them on a daily basis, they are NOT lunatics, and they are all in a program to eventually become lovely hunters for someone. I don't know about others' programs for their youngsters, but ours begin their journey as soon as they arrive at our barn. They learn to be show horses by being treated like show horses, combined with as much t/o as we can give them.

And I absolutely believe a well-bred, healthy, sane weanling is worth every penny of 10K.

Which is why poor me buys pony weanlings! LOL!!

pwynnnorman

Aug. 1, 2007, 10:34 PM

Actually, Lauriep, I specifically excluded hunters (and western) from my vitriol in just about every post I've made on this thread. They remain, IMO, the only true markets out there. What sells is very, very clear--you can bank on it, as many do. Can't say the same about "sport" horses and ponies, though!

Dressage-ryder

Aug. 1, 2007, 10:37 PM

This year we had two. 1 sold inutero and 1 at 4 weeks old.Sometimes you get a great person who is offering a loving home where the horse will be trained and competed, those are the times I drop the prices. For me as a breeder I think its better to get the babies in good homes where something will become of them and they will gain respect as show horses... I do think there are buyers out there for 10k weanlings.
Mine are raised in small herds with other weanlings and yearlings. They get daily care, grooming, and "training" from day one until the day they leave. Each is bred and raised with the highest of standards and goals... I think breeders don't get half respect they should. No matter what my day, week, month is like I know I have to work with the foals consistently so they can become super riding horses.
I am a HUGE advocate for having the weanlings,yearlings, and 2 year olds out in pastures in small herds.. Does that make them rank?Of course not. It makes them horses. I don't think there is ANY excuse for putting a healthy weanling or yearling in a stall... Its not right. MHO.

I also don't have one foal still around from this year so, no, they aren't just sitting in the breeders pastures until 3 or 4 years old. Mine will both leave at 6 months when they are weaned.
I breed dressage horses.

You ask how many are riding 40k in flesh, I wonder that also.What wonder about even more so is why so many people think if they buy it from Germany or Holland its worth that much but if it was bred here it can't hold the same value... hmm...Do people really think they are getting the best deals overseas? We have good and bad horses everywhere... I think if you can find a super weanling for 10k you are lucky. Are there some priced at that price and not worth it.. Yup.. and any buyer should be educated enough to see a good foal from a bad one. I know many people who bought foals for 10-12k and thank their lucky stars as the horses have gone on and sold for double or more a year or two later.

I do hope people can start to support NA breeders and see the pros of buying young.

Added: I just saw your last post... Both my weanlings sold to AA dressage riders that ride with super FEI trainers. They will be used as show horses in the dressage arena.

I also know as a breeder I wish people could openly talk about the pros and cons of stallions they use... So many times they get slammed for talking about WHY the stallion didn't cross well with their mare or get accused or trying to "destroy" the stallion... The fellow breeders I am in contact with and respect are all very open about the mares, foals, and stallions in their breeding programs... When a foal comes out less than expected we talk about WHAT was missing and which stallion could help fix that... I wish this was done on a bigger scale.

I love the idea of a sale, I wish there was some way to make it happen!!

MagicRoseFarm

Aug. 1, 2007, 10:58 PM

We never sell weanlings for 10K and up, I see them advertised as such all the time. However, the advertising price does NOT necessarily match the selling price...

However, we have sold yearlings for as much as 15K and two year olds for more.... The older they get, the less "risk" there is for a buyer...

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 2, 2007, 12:21 AM

Thank you all for your comments and willingness to share. I appreciate it!

Please let me clarify some points. First, I happen to be in a unique position in that my family lives in Europe and I have the ability to purchase in Euros and avoid the horrible exchange rate. It would mean shifting some money around with my parents, but it's been done before. I also have old friends and trainers that can help me out when looking, but I feel fairly competent looking at horses myself.

Second, the number of foals born in Europe, heck Germany alone, is much more than the U.S. can produce. The difference in the numbers is staggering. Yes, I would prefer to buy in the U.S., but why should I when I can have a better selection in Europe? And by better I don't mean better bred, I mean MORE of the good ones. Yes, several babies go for huge prices over there too, I am not blind to that, but I also know basic economics: more supply = less demand = less $$$. It may end up costing me $20K to get one over here, but he/she will be more than what I could purchase dollar for dollar over here IMHO.

Third, as for TB mares. I have nothing against TB mares, but I prefer a heavier WB. I want a Hanoverian with TB in maybe the second or third generation, but not the first. Just a personal preference...

Fourth, I imported my mare out of Frankfurt so I am familiar with shipping costs. Granted that was in 1995, but I am sure the prices have come down a bit since then.

Fifth, I am particularly concerned with the future of young sporthorses here. My particular love is to start them, put a few years, and then pass them on. I cannot afford to do that if my starting price is $10K and I have to wait 3 years to break them and then another 1-2 to get them to a decent place and then sell them for hopefully 35K-40K. I already put in $5000 a year of my time, care, vet, farrier, etc. I think more breeders should look into passing off their babies to reputable trainers and then splitting the sale costs when the babies reach 4 or 5. It seems like a much better way to go and is very similar to what the Europeans do. They obviously do something right or they wouldn't dominate the horse sporting world as they have done for decades. OH and don't tell me to buy cheap TBs, "been there - done that," not interested in TBs anymore. The market is warmbloods, ammies want WBs, and I like WBs.

rideagoldenpony

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:03 AM

Second, the number of foals born in Europe, heck Germany alone, is much more than the U.S. can produce. The difference in the numbers is staggering. Yes, I would prefer to buy in the U.S., but why should I when I can have a better selection in Europe? And by better I don't mean better bred, I mean MORE of the good ones.

Fourth, I imported my mare out of Frankfurt so I am familiar with shipping costs. Granted that was in 1995, but I am sure the prices have come down a bit since then.

Fifth, I am particularly concerned with the future of young sporthorses here. My particular love is to start them, put a few years, and then pass them on. I cannot afford to do that if my starting price is $10K and I have to wait 3 years to break them and then another 1-2 to get them to a decent place and then sell them for hopefully 35K-40K. I already put in $5000 a year of my time, care, vet, farrier, etc.

I'm just trying to better understand here.... are you saying that buying and importing a youngster from Europe is going to cost you less than $10,000 -- including purchase, import and quarantine? IE from standing in the breeder's barn to standing in your barn for LESS than $10k?

I just can't figure out the math on this. I started importing (from the UK) in 2001. Back then it was costing about $3500 for the flight (for a weanling or yearling pony), and another $500-600 for the quarantine. This was bringing them into Toronto, Canada. Then there was the transport home -- which was in the $800 to $1000 range. So the import costs were really not bad. Since then, however, the costs have more than doubled, and the quarantine alone has more than tripled (bringing them into Los Angeles, not Toronto)..... and that doesn't even take into account the purchase price, which is almost always far less than the cost to get them home (at least for the ponies).

If you have a less expensive import alternative that you have used/like, I really would love to know who it is.

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:49 AM

I do have a filly that I could have sold 10 times by now for $10,000. I have several people waiting for current photos and videos of her, and I do know a couple of the people waiting, purchase their prospects for at least this price. Unfortunately, this is not my time of the year that I can update things. I also am not sure I really want to sell her.

My foals always sell for 5 to 6,000., yearlings 6 to 8, 2 year olds 7 to 10, 3 year olds 10 - 12 - a bit less out of a TB mare, although I am not sure why. I am not too worried about selling the foals. I can make more off of the 3 years olds, I get to see how they develop, AND I can make sure they get a good start.

The quality you will get for the price in the US is MUCH higher than in Europe. Here is an example. My US bred colt sold for $5,500. The other guy sold in Europe for equal to $55,000. (US) The photo is taken at a slightly different timing, and my boy is a bit younger, but I believe you can see they are VERY similar boys. I am sure the $55,000. guy has a more in demand pedigree, but for a riding horse, ...

carolprudm

Aug. 2, 2007, 07:02 AM

<SNIP>. It would mean shifting some money around with my parents, but it's been done before.
<SNIP>
No matter whose money it is, if it is going from dollars to Euros you are affected by the exchange rates.
<SNIP>

Fourth, I imported my mare out of Frankfurt so I am familiar with shipping costs. Granted that was in 1995, but I am sure the prices have come down a bit since then.
<SNIP>

Sorry, no, I believe they have more than doubled.

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 2, 2007, 07:37 AM

In fact, let's do a poll. Who out there is currently waiting for a $10K weanling to grow up and what do you plan to do with it once it has?

KT waves her hand frantically. ME ME ME ME ME. I've got *three* that I've been WAITING for a number of years. Currently, this is where they are—naming no names, of course.

1. Recovering from an injury. Will start BACK into work this month after being off about 8 months. This is a slow slow process, but the future looks bright after a somewhat (ahem) rocky beginning.
2. Under saddle and showing with trainer. A few bumps here and there, but I'm generally pleased.
3. Will be going to his first show this month with trainer. Training is coming along very very well. I'm hopeful.

As probably everyone on this board knows (and I can see you all yawning out there!!:lol:) the biggest problem is not the foals, not their prices, not the waiting for them to grow up ... it's the training. Young horse trainers, those that really specialize in getting them going,... that's where the biggest problem is.

Oh, and why did I buy young horses and wait for them to grow up? Two reasons:

a. I had a QH that was ruined (and it broke my heart) by the "QH halter" people (he had to be retired at the age of 8.) I never want to go through that again. I KNOW what my babies have been fed and how they've been brought up. I want them all to have long, happy *sound* lives.

b. Buying a young horse is like buying an expensive horse--on layaway. I can afford $10K for a nice baby, then spend $xxx's a month for three years. I cannot afford $30K-$40K in one fell swoop.

graystonefarm

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:00 AM

While I've never had a problem selling my weanlings in the $10K range (and I've sold many), even at that price, I still have not been able to make a profit. After paying for quality feed, shavings, farrier, vet, mortgage, insurance, repairs, truck, trailer, why should I work my ass off if no one wants pay the price? If you think it's so easy, then you can make your foal. ;) You import the mare $30K mare, pay for the repro vet, the stud fee, the maintence and see if you can do it any cheaper.

BTW, mine are not turned out in fields and unhandled. A good example is this year's Samarant colt who, while he was handled daily, he had never worn a halter until his inspection at 5 weeks old. My buyers are always happy with their weanings for this reason.
http://www.graystonefarm.com/San_Morant-AHS.wmv

Regrettable, I am done breeding. I'm going to be selfish and spend my money on riding and showing.

For the OP, you may be able to find something in Europe and import it in the $10K range, however, you will never touch a qualify foal for that price. And their foals are NOT handled until they are 3 years old. I know a breeder who purchased 2 and 3 years olds that were literally dangerous. No, thank you.

camohn

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:12 AM

Why the prices?
Well the old adage of "triple the stud fee" may work for high priced TB stud fees. But for the average WB stud fee here at 1500 that would be a 4500 weanling. If I am lucky (no health problems for mare and foal, no excessive vet bills to get mare in foal and not taking into account the purchase price of a mare): we have low overhead here.....grow our own hay and have a nice amount of pasture. It costs me 3500 for the problem free foal to hit the ground. That takes into account nothing for my year of work around here in the meanwhile. Or the cost of the mare. And in some places it costs even more than that to put the foal on the ground. Personally my babies have sold from 2500 to 5K. (Paints on the 2500 end/WBs on the 5K end). Yearlings from 3500 to 11K (Paint/WB split again). The upper end ones are also the ones that actually went to shows and did well in hand; most of our foals are not shown. Green broke (2 to 3YOs) from 5 to 14K. Who is your daddy had a lot to do with how much the foal sold for. The ones with well known sires sold for more and sold more quickly. Not hard to figure out why. Still, they were actually not my BEST foals. Quality wise my best foals actually sold for the least. The stallion chosen for the mare best complimented her and was an offbeat choice (unusual bloodlines/regional stallions/not so well known stallions nationally). THEY were my best foals. They were also harder to sell and sold for less. I am sure they became lovley adults (in fact I know both of my breeding "oddballs" are in fact showing successfully). So...in the past I tried to mix some "commercially popular" stallions with some offbeat choices so I didn't have to keep em all to riding age! I do agree that at least 50% of the foals I see on Equine/DH are overpriced. But certainly not ALL of them. For one, for many breeders the price is not firm. "ASKING" on a price is just that. So, the worst you can do is ask. Locally from the SOs I know if I was shopping I know one of their better foals at Breeder X: they want to get 11 to 13K. These foals scored 7.9 to 8.something at inspection. So yes you will have to pay lower 5 figures for a VERY nice WB baby here. Under that for "pretty nice". With import costs I don't think you will see anything that nice from Europe for under 13K personally. Shrug. I have seen on DH etc the 20 to 40K yearlings. Would I personally pay that? No. Isn't a need to.

BTW: ours live in a field and are not unhandled. They lead, trailer load, groom and stand for the farrier by weaning. It is healthy for them to live out. The ones I have met that were imported: believe me, they were NOT handled much as foals!!

As to the TB thing: nothing wrong with wanting and older type/heavier WB for personal preferance. It's just that not every TB cross here came from some reject TB mare off the track. Yes, TB mares here are very available and that is why they are used in PART. The bigger part though is simply that most riders here are the AA women. A lighter more sensitive TB cross is simply easier for them to ride. It IS a more marketable horse here.And the racetrack "rejects" often are the best sporthorses. The more expressive gaits for dressage predispose a TB to being slow and inefficient runners at the track. Granted the "right" TB is not a dirt sprinter. But there are plenty of very suitable TBs out there. One race breeder neighbor got rid of his Pleasant Colony line horses....called them the "friggin plowhorses". They were big, slow to mature and finally ended up being too slow for the track once they got (squeezed unhappily at 17H) into the starting gate. He just di NOT understand why I thought they were just lovely (grin!).

ise@ssl

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:24 AM

The price we put on weanlings relates to more than just a few photos of correct conformation and movement. We take into consideration their breeding and usually have siblings on the ground from that mare or have bred other mares to that stallion. We may have horses in performance from that mare or her dam or now even her grand-dam.

We don't put weanlings on the market very often due to the fact that there don't seem to alot of people who are knowledgeable in raising them properly. That relates to handling, diet, exercise (i.e. proper turn-out and pasture) and ability to train them when they are ready to start under saddle. When we do put young horses on the market - it's after they have been inspected and scored. We also provide documentation that our horses have ALL shots, are wormed regularly, have a current Coggins and are HANDLED DAILY.

I agree with other posts here about the cost of purchasing a young horse here relative to Europe - it's a REAL BARGAIN NOW!! Considering the Euro to dollar and also the fact that the shipping will be at Euro rates - knowledge and competent horse people should be RUNNING - not WALKING to good US breeders to purchase young horses.

It appears that buyers too often look at the stud fee for the sire and relate that to the asking price. All costs involved in putting a healthy, well conformed and athletic foal on the ground that's registered and has a proven pedigree don't stop with the stud fee.

Edgewood

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:24 AM

I am a smaller breeder (Like Hillside) and am relatively new to this as well. But I will say that I have not had a problem selling my WB babies out of my AHS approved and MPT passed TB mare - and for good prices. The prices may not be as high as out of some WB mares, but really equivalent to other WB mares. I got between $8500 and $10500 for her nice to exceptional foals. Both were colts and were gelded. Generally they seem to sell either in the Dec or first part of the new year (so they are all fuzzy and wooly, but they still sold well).

Janet

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:31 AM

Thank you all for your comments and willingness to share. I appreciate it!

...
. It may end up costing me $20K to get one over here, but he/she will be more than what I could purchase dollar for dollar over here IMHO.

Fifth, I am particularly concerned with the future of young sporthorses here. My particular love is to start them, put a few years, and then pass them on. I cannot afford to do that if my starting price is $10K and I have to wait 3 years to break them and then another 1-2 to get them to a decent place and then sell them for hopefully 35K-40K. I already put in $5000 a year of my time, care, vet, farrier, etc. .

Do I understand thta you are saying

A- if you buy a weanling from Europe for $20k you can make a profit, but if you buy a weanling in US for $10k you cannot make a profit.

B - Breeders ought to sell their weanlings at a loss so you can make a profit.

Did I miss something?

TKR

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:40 AM

I think that the idea that you can buy a "better" (bred or otherwise) foal in Europe is an out of date idea. If you want a mostly wb (they all have TB somewhere, <G>), there are a number of good breeders here who have very good wb mares and are breed fine babies. With the ability to import frozen semen, the stallions are mostly available to the breeders here as well. With the import costs, even if you have family there, you will still spend more $$ regardless. Doing some domestic research on foals available could pay off handsomely!
JMHO!
PennyG

Texarkana

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:48 AM

ise@ssl

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:50 AM

What do you mean "shifting money around"?????

When you import the horse you have to declare the value and lying to Customs is a very very dangerous place to go. I know one gal who was stupid enough to take her friends advise when she was importing 2 horses from the US to Canada - saying they were worth $500 each. They were impounded at the border by Canadaian customs and she ended up pay $8000 in fines on TOP of the fees due on the real value of the horses.

And others are right about the costs of flying. It's a real kick in the head right now with the Euro situation. We have several ponies in Europe that we had planned to import in October - I'm now trying to arrange to leave the yearling and weanling there (it is cheaper board) and just bring in the two mares - one that has a foal by her side. I'll try to wait and see if and when the exchange rate improves and bring the other two in then.

Norsire

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:52 AM

$55,000. guy has a more in demand pedigree, but for a riding horse, ...

Can't ride a pedigree on a piece of paper...can ya? :lol: It should be about the individual horse and what he/she has to offer and not what is on a piece of paper. JMHO

hluing

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:52 AM

Warmblood breeders...if you think it is frustrating dealing with this attitude from potential buyers...try breeding German Riding Ponies. I have about the same costs...frozen semen, specialized repro vets, German inspections, etc...but people seem to have no idea! Well, its a pony, right? Yeah...a pony with horse like conformation, uphill and expressive movement, huge scope over fences, a fabulous temperment, European bloodlines tracing back 5 generations, premium status and rave reviews from a major German registry, etc;) There are ponies and ponies. I think the bottom line is there will always be buyers that don't understand our situation as breeders and don't appreciate the quality of what we breed. However, there are plenty that do;)

Norsire

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:53 AM

Rhiannonjk

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:01 AM

My family's breeding farm is very young (about 5 years), but we price our babies in the $10-$12k range because that is what it is worth to us to sell them as weanlings. We hope that as these become broken, trained horses, the value will increase, and as a 4 year old they may be $20-$30k horses.
And we advertise them as weanlings at that price because we can't afford for anything on the farm not to be for sale.
Of course, we don't know yet if we can sell anything in the $30k range as a 4-year old, because we just now have a horse that has stayed on the farm that long before selling!

And we have shifted our bloodline focus to hunter prospects, and have some hunter prospect babies on the farm. We carefully select stallions that will compliment our Trakhener mares (we borrowed a TB for one breeding season, so there is one fabulous Hano baby on our farm from a TB, and I haven't heard anybody have any complaints about her). When each foal comes, we take time to evaluate it and decide if it would best be marketed as a dressage prospect or hunter prospect.

But in the end, to answer the OP's original question, we price our weanlings at $10-12k because that's what it is worth for us to sell them.

RiverOaksFarm

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:12 AM

I am one of those people who has bought weanlings. I have a very limited budget, and it seemed the only way to get something nice and affordable, was to buy a weanling. The first weanling I bought, has gone on to win National and Regional year-end dressage awards as a 4 year-old, 5 year-old, and 6 year-old, and last year (as a 6yo) was also named "Horse of the Year" by the breed registry. The next weanling I bought is now going nicely under saddle, has just turned 4 last month, and is nicer than I could have ever hoped for, and nicer than I could have ever afforded. This is the first time in my life that I am riding something this nice and it belongs to me (and not a client.) The third weanling I bought to breed, and even with three years of waiting/feeding/keeping her before I could breed her this year, I couldn't have touched her as a 3 yo for what I have in her.

I think buying a weanling can be a great thing (and I don't think you need to go to Europe to do it.) You control everything -- handling, care, appropriate vet/ farrier/ worming/ feeding/ everything, plus the bond you get from raising one yourself. It might be more difficult for someone who must pay exorbitant board for 3 years, but since I have my own place and start my own, it has worked well for me, and there are alot of others with their own places, or paying reasonable board, for whom buying a weanling should work equally well.

Anyhow, just my own experience/perspective, since someone asked about people who had actually bought weanlings...

:)

2Dogs

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:16 AM

I have bred one fine mare and have bought one fine weanling - and will continue to breed and buy babies - because, Pwynn, I am willing to take a risk on stellar babes, babes I can bring up, can direct training of, can get broken they way I like them to be broken, and then can get ready to send into the show ring at the right time, all for LESS money than the equivalent talent would cost me at four years old or up.
I study the bloodlines, I study the babies, I hope for the best!
There are many under $30,000 dollar horses on the web, but for the talent I hope to build (and will enjoy every minute doing so!), that talent does NOT go for that kind of dollar, but, like the last 3 four year olds my old trainer bought for her clients, for $75,000 - $100,000 up. And the challenge is so envigorating!

Any guarantees? Absolutely not. Nor are there in buying that Euro youngster! 3 years ago, 4 out of 6 horses bought in Europe by my trainer x, broke down within a year, after only a few shows, and they all vetted clean - so risk is everywhere - ).

Working with youngsters - nothing finer! I'll keep you all posted how they turn out (on another forum - no bragging here!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Thomas_1

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:22 AM

Its called market rate which is driven by market force.

However please note that buying a horse isn't compulsory so you don't "have" to pay anything at all for one.

fish

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:24 AM

Trying to address the OP and Pwynn's brass tacks post:

The biggest problem I see in this country is a lack of people willing and able to do a good job making (as opposed to "breaking") young horses. Those few youngsters fortunate enough to be made by people fully capable of doing their jobs quite commonly go from being 4-5 figure youngsters to 6 figure horses in the course of a few years. The rest are all too easily transformed from $10K weanlings-- or $25,000 two year olds-- into $5000-$20K adults (or much less), because their "training" has made them into stiff, unbalanced or otherwise ruined adults. As someone mentioned to me a few years ago, it is almost impossible to find a horse at The Capital Challenge, for example, that had been purchased for under $100K-- and many of them weren't even much to look at. They are, for the most part, simply horses who are very good at their jobs. In marked contrast, one of my novice clients has been trying to find a made horse for under $20,000 for about 4 months now and so far the only one he's tried that has not been stiff and inverted at every step has been a very quiet and very green 4 year old draft cross. She doesn't know beans, but at least she hasn't been totally wrecked yet. I've told my client to keep looking because I do believe the green rider/green horse combo is an almost sure fire formula to produce more wrecked horses and more riders lacking in both finesse and confidence, but I am wondering how many frogs we're going to have to examine before we find what we're looking for.

So, in brief, I'm with those saying that the best reason to buy a $10,000 weaning (or any youngster for that matter)-- is to have the luxury of working with a horse whose potential has not been severly compromised by bad training.

Indeed, I don't think buying weanlings in Europe is much (if any) cheaper than it is here. I also don't think most people are going to Europe to buy weanings, though. Most of them are going there to buy riding horses who've been given acceptable basics-- a group which is both much less expensive and much easier to find in Europe.

Equine Reproduction

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:29 AM

Well, just in my brief perusal of Dreamhorse.com, agdirect and warmbloods-for-sale, while I found a handful of weanlings in the $10,000+ price range, most were priced between $6,500 and $7,500. About 1/3 of those were out of Thoroughbred mares and the rest were out of some very nice warmblood mares with TB being in the second or third generation. So, while there may be some out there getting the five figure prices, I think most are more reasonably priced. And, I actually found quite a few YEARLINGs that were priced UNDER $10,000, again that were out of warmblood mares and registered with a recognized warmblood registry, thereby saving one the cost of growing out the foal for a year.

I think that there needs to be several considerations, as well that the OP is apparently not cognizant of. As others have pointed out repeatedly, importation has gone UP, NOT down since 1995, more than doubling in price. I'm sure the cost of fuel has contributed significantly to that, but I certainly don't see that changing any time in the future. So you are going to pay close to $10,000 for importation alone! As you are planning on purchasing a weanling, you won't have some of the additional costs that go with purchasing an older horse, but in the event that occurs, the costs go up. Secondly, by purchasing domestically you have someone that is committed to supporting you, as well. You have the opportunity to research the seller's reputation and breeding program, see how the foals are raised, repeatedly visit the farm that the foals are being raised at, and support the domestic market, as well. I have, upon occasion, bred with frozen semen when a particular bloodline isn't available here, but that is so incredibly rare now that I prefer trying to support my fellow breeders. What happens once you get that imported weanling home and it turns out to have some "issues"? At least with a domestic buyer, you have someone that you can go back to and hopefully resolve the problem. That's not going to be an option with an imported foal. In order to import a weanling, it better be pretty darn spectacular to warrant the $10,000 importation cost not including the purchase price.

Pwynn, I think that most of us acknowledge that it's a dream to be able to get $30,000 and up for a horse. When selling a weanling or yearling, one is hopefully selling potential! We all have our dreams and at 20 what I believed I wanted to do and was capable of doing is considerably different now <lol>. And, let's face it, by the time a horse reaches 5 or 6 and is going well under saddle, we have a pretty darn good idea of what it is capable of - so the "potential" factor is no longer a commodity that one can market. The horse that is going to be capable of doing the upper levels is going to be marketable to such a very, very, VERY small pool of buyers capable of riding it to that level, and then you've got to hope that they have the funds to purchase the animal. God help you if you have a five or six year old out there that isn't started under saddle!!! Then the questions are, what's wrong with it! Additionally, by the time that horse is 5 or 6 years old, most breeders aren't able to do it all, e.g., breed, ride and train, so there's MORE money being poured into the horse in order to get it out there under saddle, let alone actually in the show ring. Heck, I know that there just aren't enough hours in the day for me to be able to! Most breeders in this country are also working full time jobs to support their bad habits <grin>.

I've sold a handful of very, very special weanlings for five figures. Those were animals that I didn't care if they sold or not, and more often, planned on keeping them for breeding. But, I am pretty realistic and most of my weanlings are priced in utero well under that $10,000 figure. I also push really hard to sell them before I breed them - I just don't have time to have them standing around and growing and eating. We've got two right now that really need to be started under saddle, but sheesh - when??? It's on my list of things to do <rolling eyes>. With the cost of hay, cost of breeding, cost of showing, cost of transportation, and so on, it is a labor of love. Even at $10,000, if one takes into consideration the costs associated with getting that foal on the ground, the breeder isn't making even double keystone, let alone triple keystone on their initial investment.

So, with all of that said, good luck to the OP if they decide to take a swim across the pond for a purchase. But methinks that even at $10,000, you're going to get a whole lot more bang for your buck domestically, (although I think that you're going to be able to find something really spectacular for considerably less than $10,000). Just start shopping! There's certainly more than a handful available and it is a buyer's market!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

shawneeAcres

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:30 AM

well, we dont give our babies away! But we also don't sell them for $10K. Not only do we raise App sporthorses but also some nice warmbloods, and Most of my youngstock is under $6000. I do have one yearling filly that I would price for more, mostly because I don't want to sell her and becuase she is truly an exceptional filly BUT she wouldn't be over $10K. So yes, there ARE breeders out there, mostly smaller ones like myself, that only produce 2 - 3 foals per year and keep costs reasonable. Just keep looking, but I disagree that a weanling imported from Europe will be any less $$$ once you factor in ALL the costs, not just the purchase price!

Hillside H Ranch

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:53 AM

Well, I'm not sure where the OP is planning on purchasing from but I don't see it being possible to get a baby over here from Europe for less than 10k total. My husband has immediate family in Holland and they are involved in breeding some of the top Friesiens in that country. I'm so lucky that they are into the horse scene, because they are friends with a lot of the "big name breeders" there and I've gotten to hang out on their farms every time I visit. I can tell you that the foals that are priced at 5-6k (which you still won't be able to get here for 10k) are not comparable to the (accurately priced) 10k foal here in the states. Most of those breeders hang onto the very best anyway (and god help you if you are wanting to buy a top-notch filly)! But a lot of breeders here in the US sell even their very top foals, for all the reasons listed prior; lack of training ability, being a hobby breeder, etc. we can't just have a lot of foals/young horses sitting around. So I really don't think the math is adding up here?

Tiki

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:57 AM

Fourth, I imported my mare out of Frankfurt so I am familiar with shipping costs. Granted that was in 1995, but I am sure the prices have come down a bit since then. You're sure prices have come down a bit since then? Have you led a sheltered life or been hiding under a rock? Prices have gone WAY UP for everything.

Fifth, I am particularly concerned with the future of young sporthorses here. My particular love is to start them, put a few years, and then pass them on. I cannot afford to do that if my starting price is $10K and I have to wait 3 years to break them As someone else said, if you can't afford to do it with a $10,000 foal, then how can you do it with one that costs at least $20,000 to get here. Also, when you consider that average foals in Germany cost $4,000 - $10,000, which could cost you about $16,000 - $20,000 or more to get home, and quality weanlings in Germany sell for $30,000 - $65,000 (or more) Plus the money to get them home and you can buy a foal of the $35,000 - $60,00 quality here, then you are bringing home a lower quality foal that cost you easily $20,000, but it is still a $4,000 foal for which you have paid $20,000!!!

And Pywnn, as to what are these $10,000 foals doing now? One my girlfriend sold is scoring consistently in the low to mid 70's at 1st level, is probably going to make HOY at that leve, and is schooling 2nd and 3rd very well. Another one was 1st in the 4yo Young Horse Futurity at Devon with a professional rider and 6th at Kentucky with his amatuer rider/owner, and 3rd this year at Raleigh. I've sold 2 for very good prices that as 4yo's now with their amateur owners are heading to the show ring and success. They both said that training them consists of putting on the saddle and bridle and getting on and riding - amateurs!!

And no, Pwynn, my horses don't sit in fields and get wild as they grow up. Here's a video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=bB1d564k9vE) of one my 2yo's who lives out, but gets regular handling. This is NOT an advertisement for sale, just a way to show you what they all look like. My mares have been Premium foals, produced all Premium foals, and their daughters are now passing their Mare Performance Tests.

pwynnnorman

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:01 AM

...and there are alot of others with their own places, or paying reasonable board, for whom buying a weanling should work equally well.

There are? Where?

(BTW, I was bored silly with the BB lately because nothing interesting was being discussed. This is much better!)

I think what some folks need to remember in reading what may seem like criticism is that it isn't about you or your personal, individual circumstances. No one is pointing a finger at anyone specifically, but I am pointing a finger in a very collective way.

Similarly, it's also not about you, individually, when it comes to pricing either. Unless your overpriced weanling can provide the buyer with some of the prestige you've undoubtedly paid handsomely for and try hard not to factor in when considering profits, there is simply no need to pay $10K for a sport horse weanling in this country.

Again, that's a fact that has nothing whatsoever to do with YOU, the quality/type/breed of your mare(s), or how much you put into the weanling. As several have indicated here, for that already RARE buyer looking for a weanling to RIDE and compete (not brag about or collect...oops, I mean, breed ;)), it makes no sense, given the availability of perfectly good, even excellent, weanlings out there.

So, how many people are that stupid, egotistical, short-sighted or whatever? Few. Period. Hence my high skepticism.

I mean, Geezum, folks, we're talking about WEANLINGS. And don't, please, harp on inspection scores. How many 8.0+ babies ever DO ANYTHING to the level they are supposed to be good enough for?

And this is so much the case with dressage horses and jumpers (and eventers, to a certain extent). While "ruined" horses are out there, for sure, when you step outside of the subjective sophistication of hunters, it's not rocket science to find a horse to do the job you want it to do--either you can ride that 2nd level horse through the movements and beyond or you can't. Either you can get it around that 3'3" AA jumper course or you can't. And because it isn't hard to find that horse to do what you want to do, that puts buying weanlings even more into the nutso realm.

(Granted, there are a LOT of nutsos in this biz, but still not enough to waste advertising dollars on overpricing a weanling. Nope, I do believe that most do what has been stated: price it high and raise it yourself, hoping that you'll end up with enough big dollar babies over the years to have made all the risk and disappointment worthwhile.)

Meanwhile, I wonder if we might continue this intriguing discussion to pinpoint WHERE those weanling buyers folks claim come from? You've been great in indicating what you've sold, but how about now HOW it got sold? (I happen to have a cuteness factor theory about that, which I hope to explore later.) Did the buyer see an ad with a cute photo? Or maybe the right blood popped out of the ad copy? Or perhaps the buyer didn't just walk out the woods, but rather was directed to you through horse OR non-horse networks?

And this isn't OT. The OP asked why pay $10K for a US weanling. IMO, to answer that question, it's necessary to identify WHO pays because the who often determines the why.

siegi b.

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:30 AM

Ok, Pwynn, time to get you to partake in some of my "vitriol"...

In my opinion the OP has no business buying a weanling because she quite obviously doesn't know what she's looking at. Where else would statements like "all weanlings move well because they only weigh 200 lbs" and "sure, for a rare palomino color you should get 15K" come from? Then you add all the nonsense about shipping being less now than 12 years ago, and you know there's not a whole lot there.

Hluing, I understand what you mean and that also addresses pwynn's statements to a large extent - she's talking like a true pony breeder, and sure, that's a field where the prices discussed are a little harder to get.

ALL the weanlings I sold have been in the 5-digit numbers and all of my buyers thought they were fortunate to get them for that price. Probably because they've seen me sell 3-year olds for 30K and up.. So if I can sell my 3-year olds for that, then the weanling clients rightfully think they can do that, too, and then the initial purchase doesn't seem to be so bad. I had one client tell me after purchasing a weanling from me that she was so excited to finally have a "Siegi" horse!

What are my horses doing?
I have a 10-year old competing at I-1, a 7-year old at 4th, a 4-year old winning FEI young horse classes (No. 1 HOY as a 3-year old), etc. etc. etc.

I don't advertise my horses at all because I have very happy clients that spread the word. I would rather keep my weanlings and sell them as 3-year olds because so many people have no idea what they're looking at and I have the acreage to raise foals. Comments like "all weanling move well because they only weigh 200 lbs" just kill me and I think if that remark were made at my barn I would invite that person to leave. I have put in my time as a breeder and with that have earned the right to not suffer fools lightly. I raise consistently good horses and don't play games with my clients. And yes, I expect the same courtesy in return.

P.S.: Ilona, you're absolutely right about the "moving money around" issue. :-)

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:34 AM

IMO, to answer that question, it's necessary to identify WHO pays because the who often determines the why.

Most of the babies I have sold were purchased by someone that had a riding horse that was older, and they were looking to grow up its replacement, while the older guy was still sound and competitive.

eqsiu

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:42 AM

Regarding the comment about the domestic wb foals being o/o Thoroughbred mares --
First of all, a good mare is a good mare and the reason the wb registries are still accepting Thoroughbreds (mares and stallions) is because they need them and what they bring to the table. Just because the mare is a "wb" doesn't automatically mean she's better or exceptional, and a wb mare probably has some TB lines.

PennyG

I'll add to this. Having bred hanoverian/tb crosses, the AHS requires an overall inspection score of 7.0 with a 7 for elasticity for tb mares. This means that those thoroughbred mares have scored higher at inspection than many of the warmblood mares. Nothing to sneeze at. Besides, many warmbloods are behemoths. Thoroughbreds are great for refining them into a modern sporthorse type. Plus I breed for eventing, so the tb blood is very important.

NoDQhere

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:46 AM

We don't try to sell weanlings because as another poster has said, they are worth more and easier to sell as "under saddle". We do have our own farm and put up the majority of our own hay, with our own sweat and blood providing the labor. But with "farm diesel" at $2.74 a gallon and gas at $3.00+ it still costs a lot ot raise horses. We don't have to pay board and training and that does make a difference. When we have sold a weanling we have gotten good money for them. The majority of our mares are at least 1/2 Warmblood and are registered and "approved". Our stallions have pretty good show records.

Cooper

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:55 AM

Most of the babies I have sold were purchased by someone that had a riding horse that was older, and they were looking to grow up its replacement, while the older guy was still sound and competitive.

And this would describe my situation.

I bought a 20 month old, somewhat more than the 10K that folks are spending for a weanling, so I guess I am one of the folks that Pwynn is wondering about.

Why? Well, it surely did not save me money over the long range. My guy is 5, doing fantastic, and is right on track - I fully expect him to be at 3rd level by mid 2008. He is getting very respectable scores, and is a complete joy to have in the barn. BUT - I could have put my money in the bank, instead of into board and training, and gone and bought a 3rd level horse for 40k plus. That is about what I will have in my gelding by this time next year.

My reasoning is very similiar to O-mom's. I saw too many young horses destroyed for a variety of reasons. I didn't want someone else's cast off. I wanted him fed right, turned out with other youngsters, started right, cross trained, etc, etc.

The reason I was willing to spend a fair amount on a young horse? Well, breeding for one thing. I knew his breeding, saw Dad, saw Mom, saw Mom's other offspring, saw their performance records. I tried to stack the deck in my favor by buying a colt who had the genetics to do the job. And even then, I got lucky, because he is turning out to be exactly what I had hoped for. So many things could have gone wrong.

Sure, I could have spent alot less on a TB, or Heinz 57.....but guess what, who knows what they are going to be? It would have been a complete crap shoot. Everyone has a glory story about the $100 wonder, who went on to beat the world, but they are very, very rare.

I thank the breeders everyday, they often are overlooked and ignored. I am fully aware that the reason my guy is so wonderful to work with, is due to his breeder giving him a fantastic start.

So, Pwynn, that is my story. But thanks for making a very interesting thread, it has been a bit boring around here lately.;) I think I miss Theo.

M. O'Connor

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:09 AM

I have a theory...and as a totally neophyte breeder who has yet to put a foal on the ground, I fully accept that my theory might be deemed completely off-base by you more experienced breeders or buyers...

My theory: Not that many weanlings ARE sold as weanlings. I assume that all weanlings cost about the same amount to produce, and there are some breeders who do it for a bit more, some a bit less. But "cost" is a different economic concept than "price." Just because the stud fee was 'x,' the vet bills were 'y,' and the mare's expenses have been 'z,' doesn't really make the foal worth what it cost. Aside from pedigree, and apparent conformation traits (that probably will change in detail but not in overall theme as it grows), I can't see how anyone could come up with an accurate way to determine the actual value of a weanling. This certainly would present an obstacle to determining a price, for both buyer and seller.

Therefore, it is more sensible to anticipate that a breeder can sell more slightly older horses than weanlings...and that the more obvious performance prospects among the older horses can command higher prices, balancing out the lower prices that their less capable companions will bring--I think that the average price for this entire group might possibly be representative of the actual value of a weanling, if the statistics that pwynn rightly craves could be obtained. I think that for those who are willing to part with weanlings at 5K-ish, the overiding factor in making that decision is that they probably aren't losing money, and there might be a small profit to count on in that figure...

<<The quality you will get for the price in the US is MUCH higher than in Europe. Here is an example. My US bred colt sold for $5,500. The other guy sold in Europe for equal to $55,000. (US) The photo is taken at a slightly different timing, and my boy is a bit younger, but I believe you can see they are VERY similar boys. I am sure the $55,000. guy has a more in demand pedigree, but for a riding horse, ...>>

As I say, I've yet to put a foal on the ground...but I think I have a nice mare...she's a TB whose dam was a very successful junior jumper in the late 80's early 90's...

Her sire: http://www.pedigreequery.com/prize+ring
Her dam: http://www.pedigreequery.com/crystal+glen

Her picture (at Upperville this year, her second jumper show): http://www.uppervillephotos.com/shows/preview.asp?id=7&img_id=883

She's a very talented mare, only starting her performance career. I wanted to get a foal from her sooner rather than later, and continue to "make her up" a bit more this year. After the foal, we (meaning myself, my trainer Joe Fargis, and Camille's rider, Pato Muente) are reasonably sure that she'll at the least be a children's or junior jumper for my daughter; there's a shot she'll be better than that, but she'll be 9 when she resumes competing, so that would be a bit more than we deserve to hope for. I've taken a gamble that for the time being (since my daughter is still on a large pony), producing this foal is the mare's "highest and best use."

I bred her to As di Villagana...

Based on Fairview's photos, I think that all I can assume is that when its a weanling, it might, MIGHT be worth...hmmmm between 5K and $55K...Is there any information given above that could lead anyone to narrow that down? In utero? As a foal? Yearling? 2yo?

Is there any reason that the OP wouldn't consider buying my foal, or Fairview's? Is there any reason we shouldn't price these youngsters at around 10K?

HeyYouNags

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:10 AM

Out of curiousity, what price does the OP think a weanling from a MMB Hanoverian, by a US- or European Hano with a good reputation, should go for?
And what do you think a filly versus future gelding is worth?

Calling my farm a breeding operation is a bit of a stretch, since I've got one broodmare. :lol: Her now-yearling is in that oh-so-shocking price range. What the heck, I think she's worth it. I haven't advertised her heavily, so she might well be here until she's 3 and going under saddle. Then I expect her to be $20K, at least. And I don't rule out keeping her for my next riding horse. But I think eventually she'll be in someone else's barn. ;)

Who is riding the Hanos and other WBs that are priced like that? It seems like everyone in my area is, nowadays. Sit around at recognized dressage show on either coast and see what people are riding in every level, even Training and First. The horses are really fancy. It wasn't like that 15 years ago. Amateurs without a ton of ambition, like, oh... me :D want a nice horse. And for a lot of us, we couldn't afford them when we were in our 20's, but dang it, we're going to have one in our 40's or 50's.

And one last point... Have you been to any of the Hano inspections (since the OP specifically mentioned Hanos) in the US? IMO, there really aren't horses being presented that I'd kick out of my barn. As the mares and foals come in, it's nice, nicer, and nicer still. If I were looking to buy, I'm sure I could find any number of suitable horses locally.

Tiki

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:11 AM

I, too, take exception to the statement that foals out of TB mares are worth less. Everyone goes on and on about how the TB's are infused into the WB through the stallions in Europe so they're better that way. Bulldust! How many TB stallions in Europe have actually gone through the 100 Day Test? They are approved in Europe the same way TB stallions are here - by their race record, then an inspection for conformation, type and movement, and a short inspection under saddle. TB mares in this country are inspected just like WB mares. They are inspected for conformation, type and movement, and for several registries can do a Mare Performance Test to prove themselves. They are often looked at much harder than a WB mare and the good ones are worth their weight in gold. Genetically it doesn't matter where the TB is, sire or dam. Performance wise it may, BUT mares of any breed are not just accepted because they carry a piece of paper registering them at birth, they have to be inspected and graded. Most TB mares at least make MMB, many with pretty good scores, and quite a few make Premium Mare, nothing to be sneezed at.

And then, if you keep their daughters for breeding - as Premium Foals and maybe Premium Mares, with good MPT's, you now have 3/4 WB's and 7/8's for their daughters put into breeding.

Donella

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:12 AM

This is freaking ridiculous...plain and simple. The op uses the Hanoverian as an example. You know what, if you don't want a Hanoverian, you just want a wb in general, hey..they are out there..they are all over the place. Look up AWS OR AWR horses or breeds that are not consistantly in the top WBFSH rankings in dressage and jumping. Hano has been number one in dressage for like over a decade....that isn't an accident.

And if you dont care about breeding or bloodlines..perfect, again, look at another registry that uses non wb's in their programs. Are your chances as high of getting a competative mount at higher levels..uhhh no, but then you aren't willing to pay for that either..so??

You say that alot of the foals are by nothing sires or the dam's breeding is lacking. I don't know..I was just on the AHS website recently and noticed alot of very well bred foals. The ones that are over the ten k price range are in most cases frozen semen foals from either elite or SPS mares. You are paying more for quality assurance. It isn't brain science..if you have a foal from one of the truly top dressage or jumping stallions in the world out of a top class mare (elite or sps) you have a WAY higher chance of having a foal that is going to be special. You can buy it as a youngster for ten or 15 k..or you can wait until it gets older, most likely goes elite or follows in mom or dads footsteps and pay 30 k and up for it.

Your choice, you want to take a bigger gamble..buy the draft cross or a wb from a less reputable registry and pay less OR pay more for a foal by one of the top stallions in germany out of a mare whos pedigree is full of the same type of horses and give yourself a better chance.

..either way, breeders are not a charitable organization..nor should they be.

Tiki

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:23 AM

Another point on weanling prices. My weanlings aren't cheap, but I absolutely will NOT sell one to someone who isn't experienced in raising foals and/or someone who doesn't have the proper facilities for raising them. I will NOT sell them on the cute factor to someone that doesn't know that foals aren't just small horses. If a knowledgeable buyer wants to buy one to, as someone else said, have a competitive horse on a payment plan, then I will sell a weanling, yearling or 2yo. If not, I am happy to raise them right, start them and sell them for a fair price (also not cheap). I occassionally get one that doesn't live up to my expectations, and that one won't be priced as high as a weanling OR as a 3 or 4yo under saddle, but I know my mares, I know the stallions I use - what they've done, what they've produced, and what my mares produce - I bred all but my 3 foundation mares. They are cheap for what you get because I can't get European prices.

Also, as far as selling at auction goes, it will NEVER work in this country until Americans get over the impression that an auction means bargain basement pricing. Horse Auctions, except the big TB auctions, are NOT a means, right now, of setting fair market value.

Pronzini

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:42 AM

Also, as far as selling at auction goes, it will NEVER work in this country until Americans get over the impression that an auction means bargain basement pricing. Horse Auctions, except the big TB auctions, are NOT a means, right now, of setting fair market value.

Since you brought up TBs, I'll guess I'll note that even in TBs which start at 2 and can earn serious money, weanlings are not favored except maybe in Japan. Here, the common wisdom when someone is selling a weanling is that the seller is dissolving a partnership, that the horse is a cull that the seller doesn't want to put one more dollar into or that the seller is so uncapitalized that he needs to sell the weanling to pay next years stud fee. That's not always true of course but it keeps the prices down and a pinhooking market has actually developed which is essentially picking over the bones of desperate sellers in order to make a big score in the yearling market. Believe me, no one cares what you have in the horse.

One reason that the TB auction market for all of its faults is respected is that the market is merciless and the results overall are transparent and readily accessible. That's not to say there isn't hinkiness in individual situations but in general if you breed something that the market doesn't want, it's hard to kid yourself for long.

Stacie

Aug. 2, 2007, 12:05 PM

I think the selection of weanlings are better than 2-3 year olds. If you have a very particular idea of the breeding you want, you may have a better chance of finding it in the weanlings than waiting. And if you really know your weanlings, you have a pretty good chance of knowing what you will get in 2-3 years. If you don't, then it's riskier with a weanling.

coriander

Aug. 2, 2007, 12:14 PM

The OP is, imho, delusional if she thinks she can get a bargain by importing from Europe. The prices are higher and import costs, a everyone else has noted, have more than doubled over the last decade, so even using family Euros, it isn't going to be cheaper. But she says she wants a full blooded WB, and not a very modern one at that, is sounds like. So if she wants to shop in Europe for a tank or two to make up for dressage clients, good for her.

I think she's missing a big bargain by not looking at US breeders - hell on this board alone she could find some fabulous deals. But what do I know? I do hunters, and if/when I breed, that's what I'll breed for, because that's what I know. I"ll tell you, though, I bet I could get some fabulous youngsters, for less money and heartache all around, by buying some weanlings/yearlings from you ladies and raising them to starting age. So I'm considering starting a "raising farm" instead of a breeding farm, and letting you gals that are already good at it do the heavy lifting.

Bogey2

Aug. 2, 2007, 12:33 PM

I paid 10,000 for mine and he was worth every penny ...if not more...just don't tell the breeder:winkgrin:

Lgd1

Aug. 2, 2007, 12:35 PM

I'm in Europe, albeit not mainland.

I bred my yearling filly for myself from my best competition mare, used a good stallion that complimented her. Hit the jackpot and got a superb quality foal that ticked all the boxes on my list.

As a private breeder I figured out it cost me $3500 - $4000 just to get her on the floor, no complications or extras. I actually totted up all the costs so far and to get her to 15 months it has cost me around $8000. The SO sells his as foals for $7000 - £10,000, many of them are being sold in utero, equally he doesn't have stud fees and his overheads are less than mine. Every one of his offspring presented at the recent BEF futurity achieved a first premium. To buy a foal of the same quality in Europe and import it here would be far more expensive than I can get at home and I don't have to pay for flight/quarantine.

winter

Aug. 2, 2007, 12:35 PM

Perhaps the OP should attend the fall sale in Olds.
Last year fierce bidding on a well bred colt ended at around $17,000 (if I remember correctly) and it was a buy back. The breeder was not interested in letting him go at that price.
Just food for thought.

tri

Aug. 2, 2007, 12:36 PM

As for importing costing less or more, I guess it would depend how much you had to fly around the country looking versus going to europe and seeing a zillion in one or two days.

I'll call another bluff though: So many have said to buy the weanling because it won't be ruined yet because, you know, there are NO good young horse starters (not) and sooooo many just don't know how to raise a young horse, to find one that isn't already ruined is sooo hard. So, then, who and where are all these folks who should buy your 10k weanling going to get to start that baby and get it where you all insist it is going to end up?? If the breeders breeding multiple quality babies say they can't find the young horse starters and can't get the horse where it needs to be, then how is the one individual buying their ONE next top mount finding that young horse trainer to get them where they want to be on that expensive baby?

I don't think weanlings are selling very often either and most that do sell are well under 10k with the exception of some very nice quality hunter babies and the odd dressage baby going to the vanity buyer.

Edgewood

Aug. 2, 2007, 12:52 PM

Another post to another OP point. The fact is, as others have stated, there is not as broad of a price range here in the US as you might see in Europe. So, if you keep looking, you might find that some of the US breds that are less than steller are priced too high, some nice horses are priced just right, and some super, super foals are priced low (where in Europe they would sell for MUCH, MUCH more).

Case in point. I purchased a lovely weanling in 2002 from an Elite Hanoverian Mare (Weltmeyer - Brentano) out of an approved Hanoverian stallion who is completely US bred (Gold Luck). I paid $12,000 - what I thought was a super price for this filly given her quality. I raised her and showed her in hand and eventually, under saddle. This mare routinely resoundly beat many imported WBs and I will be very lucky if I ever have another that did quite as well as she did. She routinely beat top imported stallions and mares in the Championship ring and in the end garnered 4 Grand Championships of Show in the Mid-Atlantic region (which is highly competitive). Plus she always did well at DAD and was 4th in the nation in Materiale during her first under saddle year. Unfortunately, I lost this mare as a 5 year old, as I was truly looking forward to establishing her as a foundation broodmare on my farm. Luckily, I did get 1 foal, a filly, from her and I hopefully can carry on with her. My original mare was completely US bred - sire was bred and approved in US and her dam was foaled in the US.

There would have been no way I could have bought her in Europe (she would have probably been priced MUCH higher than $12000) and no way I could have purchased her as a 3 or 4 year old (way higher than $30,000).

So, my point is that there are WONDERFUL US bred horses - who are better than some imported ones - you just have to look for them. As I said the pricing is more flat here than over the pond.

sporthorsefilly

Aug. 2, 2007, 12:55 PM

I think that the GreekDressageQueen should buy from Europe! She has made it perfectly clear that she thinks that is her best choice for the money.

Many of you have echoed what I feel. It is expensive to breed good horses, stud fees; vet bills; foaling costs; feed; hay; supplements; bedding; farrier; barn and fence repairs; field mowing; reseeding; fence painting; etc not to mention MY TIME that goes into making a nice handleable weanling or yearling! Even though I do my own work, (AND work full time!) I don't grow my own hay and I don't just run the mares and foals out on pasture until the babies are weaned. They are treated like TBs; brought in out of the heat and bugs, groomed, handled, taught what is expected of them, worked in hand, fussed over and shown. None of that is cheap.

Now why would I expect anyone to pay me $55.56 per day for that 6 month old that I have put 180 days of work into? OR Pay for a yearling at that same rate or higher? Just think of the cost of all of the above necessities AND my time.

Yes; I think if you can get a great deal in Europe, by all means go!!! I know you couldn't afford my yearling, nor would I sell her to you, as I am very particular about the care of my animals, and couldn't care less about saving a buck or even making a buck on my animals. To me it is the home that matters. If you are pinhooking, then take your best shot!

If you have to ask the price...you can't afford it!

Best wishes with your purchase :)

FYI: Pinhooking is the term for TB people who buy weanlings or yearlings and hope to resell them later at a higher price...sometimes it works, and sometimes it bites you.

not again

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:01 PM

When a breeder successfully produces offspring which sell for six figures at four years of age, then the $10 K for a weanling from similar bloodlines is a bargain.

Marydell

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:06 PM

Well I'll stick my 2 cents worth in here.
I breed Hanoverians, have done so for over 15 years. I fly to Germany to look at the recent foals and 2 yr olds to keep my eye current. I have SPS and EM Hanoverian/Oldenburg and Westfalen mares. Some imported and some bred here by myself.
I use both domestic and foreign stallions via frozen.
I have some of the most sought after dressage and jumping lines in my broodmare band.
My stallion is Don Principe--Donnerhall/Prince Thatchxx and not only breeding but competeing at PSG and I1 as an 8 yr old.

I have 7 foals- weanlings- this year alone from 4 different stallions. I will have 10 next year. My prices are farm prices of $8,500 for a suckling to $10,000 for a weanling. We have had several USDF HOY winners including the top horse last year and the second the year before. Many show winners.
Also- some of those weanlings from my early years are now competing at 4th level in the very competitive CA area and on the east coast.

There are at least 7 other breeders within a 2 hour drive of my farm. If you want to look at a lot of foals in a couple of days with one round trip airline ticket-- it CAN be done!!!

For an up to the minute cost of flying a horse into the USA - NY- I am doing one today at the cost of $7,500---I was able to do that for $3200 in 2000. So don't delude yourself about import shipping costs. Also remember that the handling they get on a plane is questionable at best. Anyone who has not seen the import quarentine facilities or the crate that these horses fly in, would be appalled at the situation. It is a starement that at leaast a 1/3 of these horse will have handling issues for the rest of their lives. Foals usually recover faster but tend to get ill in quarantine being locked up with the older horses. VERY high risk!! If not for my surgery today, I would be flying in with my horse myself to assure adequate and safe care. Only pre qualified people can fly as an animal attendant so not every owner has this option.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarms@aol.com

au_panda

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:24 PM

This thread and many of the posts kind of got my goat. Sorry in advance for the long post but this question has begun to get on my nerves. So here's my cranky input.

I think my least favorite idea posted on this thread is that cost should not be a factor when determining the price of foals. Most marketing theory says you should darn well start with cost if you expect to be here next year.

You really need to follow a breeder around for a month and find out what it takes to produce that foal that you think should be available to you at whatever minimal price you're willing to pay. So, the following is provided as a glimpse into what you might find out.

Hard cash: So you want a future FEI dressage horse. Cost of mare - maybe I should get an OTTB for $500 to produce your dreamhorse? Or maybe the chances of producing that foal would be better for you if I spent $20,000 on a talented young Hanoverian mare? So, I'll go the OTTB route because you won't give me a budget for the expensive WB mare. Then I'll be sure not to take the OTTB to an inspection and pay fees of $500 to get her approved, including a mare performance test (for which I do all the preparation, training and presentation myself because I know I can't afford to hire a trainer due to my required sale price for the foal). And I won't pay the annual fees for breeding so that I can get you a registered foal, say 2 years worth at $140 per year. Stud fee, Maybe I can find an FEI stallion for a stud fee of say $500? Maybe more like $2500? What about the booking fee and the collection and shipping fees on top of the stud fee, say another $600. How about the vet fees, say $1500, best case for breeding and foal delivery? Maybe I won't feed the mare for a year to save money. Well, maybe I will feed her, which even on pasture property, which by the way, I had to buy, will cost $1,000. Vaccination, worming, supplements to produce a fantastic foal, would you like to limit that to a mere $200 budget for your foal? So, without the cost of the mare, say a total of $6600. If you borrow that from me in the form of purchasing my weanling, you borrowed the money for nearly 2 years from contract signing to weaning - how much would you pay your credit card company in finance charges for 2 years on a $6600 balance- simplistically, at 11.5% for 2 years you could say it's another $1400 - but surely you could argue that the breeder shouldn't get any return on their investment so we shouldn't add this in right? And then I'll be sure not to take your weanling to an inspection for another $200 worth of fees, $100 in gas, $100 hotel and $100 in paid meals for a friend who comes for 2 days to run around in the hot sun and sweat like a pig.

Then there are all the costs incurred by the breeder that are not hard cash for that particular breeding. Let's see, do you follow the real estate market? Should I throw in the use of my land for free? How about the many nights we stay up to irrigate pasture so that the mare that's going to produce your cheap weanling can live on green grass all year? Do you know what a tractor costs and what parts and maintenance costs? How many hours do you think the breeder spent awake all night waiting for the mare to foal. How many days has someone cleaned and bedded a stall for that mare and then the weanling you want to pay a few bucks for? How many times did the breeder get hurt or nearly get hurt teaching that weanling to halter, lead, load in a trailer, stand for brushing, bathing. Heaven forbid they are self-employed and would like to recover some portion of their private health insurance for each foal sold.

And finally how about the really intangibles of breeding: the death of a wonderful 2 year old who colicked and couldn't be saved; the mare that red bagged so that you could sit with a dead foal in your lap.

Please people, you read these threads requesting jingles for sick and dying mares and foals. That is the reality of trying to produce quality horses for the market. Do you think these same people really run around figuring out how to rip you off financially? :no:

"Why should I pay $10,000 for a weanling". The answer is - you shouldn't. You should consider taking up tennis. You can play at a public park for free, your equipment will cost $100 and your greatest risk of injury is to hit yourself with the racket.

siegi b.

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:30 PM

Barbara a.k.a. Au Panda - You're my new idol!!

fish

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:40 PM

There are? Where?

(BTW, I was bored silly with the BB lately because nothing interesting was being discussed. This is much better!)

And this is so much the case with dressage horses and jumpers (and eventers, to a certain extent). While "ruined" horses are out there, for sure, when you step outside of the subjective sophistication of hunters, it's not rocket science to find a horse to do the job you want it to do--either you can ride that 2nd level horse through the movements and beyond or you can't. Either you can get it around that 3'3" AA jumper course or you can't. And because it isn't hard to find that horse to do what you want to do, that puts buying weanlings even more into the nutso realm.

#1, the hunters are no more (or less) a matter of "subjective sophistication" than dressage.
#2, while it may not be "rocket science" to find a horse to do the job you or I want to do, it's an entirely different story when it comes to trying to find a horse correctly trained enough to help a developing or typical amateur rider BECOME one who can ride those 2nd level movements or get around those 3' courses. A horse who can, IOW, help transform a rider from someone who CAN'T do those movements or jump those fences into someone who CAN. IMO, the breeders/sellers whose $10,000 (or even $2000) weanlings who went on to become five and six figure horses did so because they were fortunate enough to go to the relatively few riders in this country capable of making (as opposed to breaking down) a horse or were able and willing to hire a good professional to do it for them. While there are, indeed, tons of horses out there for $20K that a really strong rider can get to do its thing despite poor basics, etc., the real demand, however, is for good, correct, easy to ride schoolmasters who can make good riders by giving satisfying responses to correct, subtle aids, and going through enough of the required movements on a high enough degree of auto-pilot to enable developing riders to focus on their own body control.

I well remember Lilo Fore saying "we all ruin many horses as we learn to ride." I submit that the majority of those $20K horses with show records, etc., are ones who've been "ruined" as others have attempted to learn to ride on them. IMO, most of these horses are at least as difficult to teach a person to ride on, and sometimes more so, than an unspoiled youngster. To me, that's the essence of what underlies the idea of buying a $10,000 weaning as an alternative to the adult who's "only" $10K because s/he's been ruined.

As with people, I do think the crux of the matter is that the ultimate value of an individual does depend much more on a combination of talent and education than anything else. Eveyone knows of many relatively inexpensive youngsters who've gone on to become extremely valuable adults. There are also a lot of horses out there who've been worth a whole lot less at maturity than they were as babies because their potential was more damaged than developed. Unfortunately, it's a whole lot easier to turn a high dollar youngster into a useless pasture ornament than the other way around.

I wish it were easier to convince green riders that paying the money for a good schoolmaster/packer is a good investment both in themselves and whatever young horses they may wish to ride in the future. Unfortunately, far too many of them are too put off by the prospect of buying an older horse unlikely to increase in value as they learn on it and attracted to the idea that a well bred youngster might become a good investment despite their lack of the resources necessary to improve a horse.

railmom

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:41 PM

Au Panda - WELL SAID!

Equilibrium

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:45 PM

Firstly, PWYN, I think you are right on the money with many things you have said and you have given me a good giggle for the day. Most people can't except some of the things you've said because their true.

And why is it that every young horse has to be started in such a way that things just aren't fun for them. I have watched so many young horses being started and worked for ages lunging and lunging and head between their legs. From racehorses to warmbloods we start everything easy and happy. This means going on trail rides, riding in big open spaces, on the beach. They are so happy, relaxed, and unruined that when a professional takes over they will do anything. Anyway, another topic.

No your can't ride a pedigree and a piece of paper, but it is a good way to sell your horses. Pedigree is pretty important in Europe. And I agree it isn't the be all end all, but it it good to have.

And as far as the weanling market goes in TB's. Who said the only place weanlings were popular was Japan. Total load of crap. Ever here of pinhooking? Well if they didn't have weanling sales their wouldn't be any pinhooking. Selling weanlings is big business and you will often see weanlings selling for more than they do in their yearling year. No way to predict that market until the sales start. Then you know what's hot and what's not. The worst thing people ever do in the TB market is give a crap mare a good stallion. This does not equal big money foal. Never over stallion your mare. And lastly when comparing the TB market to warmbloods. Just because you see a few high price TB's out there, that isn't the market. Any weanling sale has quite a few TB's for under 2,000euros. Mostly because people insist on breeding a mare with no pedigree. We have always picked a few of these up for clients who want to race and win races. So far every one has been a winner. Not great horses by any means but race winners. I put TB's into 2 categories, sales horses and race horses. The big money sale horse does not always equal a racehorse as indeed a small money a bit fugly sale horse could be a decent racehorse. If you know how to read a page you will always find a diamond in the rough.

Anyway Ta
Terri

Oakstable

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:57 PM

Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, Barbara.

Sorry, but the buyers like the OP are the ones wanting to rip off the breeders.

There have always been vultures, sitting on the fence, looking for breeders who are discouraged and just want out and will settle for a crappy price.

I've been there, I sold two lovely Bolivar fillies for $7500, total. Buyer promised to keep them, they were flipped within 60-90 days.

Tiki

Aug. 2, 2007, 01:58 PM

Au Panda, right on!

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:10 PM

And why is it that every young horse has to be started in such a way that things just aren't fun for them. I have watched so many young horses being started and worked for ages lunging and lunging and head between their legs. From racehorses to warmbloods we start everything easy and happy. This means going on trail rides, riding in big open spaces, on the beach. They are so happy, relaxed, and unruined that when a professional takes over they will do anything.

That is one reason I don't make a lot of effort to sell my babies. I do have a very good young horse starter that the youngsters stay happy and easy in their work. We only need to longe 20 minutes for about 10 times to get the youngster relaxed & confident in a routine, work a bit on attention span, and introduce them to tack. Then they are undersaddle, but we watch them to make sure they stay happy, and interested.

I have a 3 year old right now, who is going thru a growth stage that makes work difficult for him, so we do more hacks, get him out, no real training or focus. Usually by now. I have great video, and push to sell them, but I want this guy to develop a bit with ME making decisions. We work him once a week, but that is almost too much for him. We HAVE to find ways to vary his work, like field and trails, or he will be totally bored and sour. He is only 10 times under saddle, and after a week off, we can get right on him in a 30 acre field, NO longeing, and hack quietly by himself, so he is not hot or crazy. We just want him to enjoy the relationship, so that is what we are working on.

Do I need to sell him? Definitely. Yesterday in fact, but I am going to let him decide his program, AND when he is ready to be sold.

Mozart

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:17 PM

I used to think $10,000 was an AWFUL lot of money for a weanling. Then I started breeding.....

camohn

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:21 PM

There are? Where?

Meanwhile, I wonder if we might continue this intriguing discussion to pinpoint WHERE those weanling buyers folks claim come from? You've been great in indicating what you've sold, but how about now HOW it got sold? (I happen to have a cuteness factor theory about that, which I hope to explore later.) Did the buyer see an ad with a cute photo? Or maybe the right blood popped out of the ad copy? Or perhaps the buyer didn't just walk out the woods, but rather was directed to you through horse OR non-horse networks?

And this isn't OT. The OP asked why pay $10K for a US weanling. IMO, to answer that question, it's necessary to identify WHO pays because the who often determines the why.

Who buys a weanling is a person that has their own farm. Folks that board as a rule do not buy babies. Not cost efficient.
Who bought my foals?
Only 1 has sold locally. 2 sold to previous customers: 1 who bought a foal from us before and 1 who bred a mare to our stallion. Both first found us through internet ads. The rest ALL sold out of state over internet ads on DreamHorse and Equine.com.
Added: what type of buyer......split between professional trainers and ammy owners.

Equilibrium

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:23 PM

I had read Panda's post. She is so on the money. Breeding is so difficult and more so when trying to please people so they want to buy the blood sweat and tears you have put into your business of breeding.

Personally, I thing any American is mad to buy here in Europe. I have said this a thousand times. Breeders have spent the money to bring some of the best mares and stallions to this country to breed quality warmbloods and they are indeed breeding quality. You can find exactly what your looking for at home. Exchange rates are terrible and costs are terrible as well. I look at the qualtiy being bred by American's and never understand why you still spend fortunes bringing them back. Getting a stallion you want from here is easy enough via frozen. And not all mares are TB's. I sold one mare to the American market a few years ago when things were better, but she was unique and diffrent. The warmbloods I'm breeding now, they are very nice, but the same as you have back home. I wouldn't dream of marketing them for the American market. But when it's all said and done,the majority of the market is not going to get their horses to FEI dressage and jumping. You want to compete, do well, and be the best you can. You have those horses at home. Just spend more time doing some ground work and research and less time bitching about having to go to Europe to find a good horse. Your breeders work tirelessly for little in return so please start supporting them.

Terri

cyndi

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:27 PM

I would pay $10K for a weanling. I haven't, yet, but I would for the right one - especially since I have bred or purchased as a weanling or yearling, raised almost every one of my horses - I don't do it that way to save money, but to KNOW what I am getting - a nice blank slate. :lol:

It is the long way to go and not for most people but, as someone said I LOVE knowing the whole history, raising them outside like real horses and the bond that develops.

I have only bought one horse already under saddle in the past 20 years and that did not work out. I struggled with this very nice WB mare I purchased as a 4 year old for six years, but we were just not well suited for each other. Of all the horses I've raised, the one I bought and tried numerous times before buying turned out to be the only one that just did not work for me, surprisingly enough. I finally traded her to a breeder for a super nice yearling colt and it was a great deal for us both.

I am like the person someone mentioned - I like to have at least one or two young ones coming up behind the one I'm currently showing. We have our own place and I enjoy working with youngsters, am capable of doing all the ground work and enjoy that, and usually just send them to someone for 30 days to make sure they are not going to killme before taking them over myself.

Finding someone to start a young horse correctly is a big challenge, as someone else mentioned. I have two two year olds right now and my current trainer is super with youngsters, as she started the horse I am now showing. If I did not have her, I really don't know where I would send them. I see that as a big obstacle for people buying OR selling youngsters.

AdAblurr02

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:28 PM

<SNIP>I"ll tell you, though, I bet I could get some fabulous youngsters, for less money and heartache all around, by buying some weanlings/yearlings from you ladies and raising them to starting age. So I'm considering starting a "raising farm" instead of a breeding farm, and letting you gals that are already good at it do the heavy lifting.

Honey, have I got some babies for YOU!

LOL, without another at LEAST 20 more acres of grass, it's the RAISING that's the hard part - and I LOVE-LOVE-LOVE raising my babies, handling them EVERY day (as they come in from "running wild on pasture" to get their feed and attention), and I love my broodmares for the great qualities they were chosen for and the wonderful foals they give me.

That said, we too are cutting back and getting out of breeding - as another poster noted, breeding quality horses should NOT be a charity thing.

You folks who want a "cheaper" euro-cull go right ahead and pay twice what I'm asking for mine - mine will be sound and sane and just as advertised, and God only knows what your will be when they get home to you. Quality COSTS, no matter where you shop!

Equine Reproduction

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:35 PM

Actually, Donella makes another really good point!

The ones that are over the ten k price range are in most cases frozen semen foals from either elite or SPS mares.

Just figuring that someone is paying low end for frozen, $500.00 an insemination dose. If they're using timed insemination protocol, they're now up to $1,000.00. And, on average, pregnancy rates with frozen semen are about 10% less than with fresh cooled. So, figuring 75% (well, actually a retrospective study put it at 79% for ALL AI breedings), at 10% less, you're at 65%. So, that works out to be, on average, $1,300.00 per breeding for frozen semen. Frozen semen is more expensive from the vet perspective and requires more management. We charge $350.00 a cycle, plus board, and we're comparatively inexpensive to other facilities. So, figure $500.00/cycle for frozen, again at 65% pregnancy rate, we're now at $650.00 to get that mare pregnatn. That's $2000.00 minimum and we don't even have a live foal on the ground yet!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

flshgordon

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:39 PM

Oakstable

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:40 PM

Thank you, Equilibrium.

I have a friend who is on the jury for one of the major registeries in NA. She has been an inspector for years, plus a USDF inspector. She says the quality is here.

I'd love to see more exposure for Born in the USA competitors.

It's funny, but I have asked riders about the breeding of their horse, and most often, they don't know the bloodlines. They bought the horse for the job it can do.

Breeders lose sleep over picking the right bloodlines for a saleable foal. But buyers want a horse they can ride now, or soon.

And I know of riders who bought the cute foal, and would not buy a foal again, because it didn't turn out as well as they had hoped.

dorthyinoz

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:42 PM

Who buys a weanling is a person that has their own farm. Folks that board as a rule do not buy babies. Not cost efficient.

Isn't that the truth! We don't have our own farm and have a broodmare, yearling, and 2 year old (with a new broodie and weanling coming up soon). The price I pay in board would allow me to buy a VERY nice weanling each year.

With that being said, it also makes my babies expensive. I can see why breeders need to charge aroun 10k to make a profit. Calculate the costs and you'll see no one is making a "killing".

carolprudm

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:42 PM

From another perspective: the barn owner where my SIL boards her mare says why pay $1000 for a stud fee when you can get one for $400 and it's all a crap shoot anyway.
SIL has found a $200 stallion.
:(

Equine Reproduction

Aug. 2, 2007, 02:44 PM

au panda is so spot on with her entire post but I really do have one question...

If you borrow that from me in the form of purchasing my weanling, you borrowed the money for nearly 2 years from contract signing to weaning - how much would you pay your credit card company in finance charges for 2 years on a $6600 balance- simplistically, at 11.5% for 2 years ...

I wanna know what credit card company you're dealing with :D!!!!

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

Oakstable

Aug. 2, 2007, 03:02 PM

Kathy,
Thanks for shedding light on what it can cost to use frozen for a cycle, and without a pregnancy confirmed.

And breeders are willing to gamble $2k per cycle with no LFG?

camohn

Aug. 2, 2007, 03:03 PM

On the pricing thing: quality of the foal is another reason the old "three times the cost of the stud fee" thing does NOT work. You can breed a lousy mare and a 20K mare to the same stallion. The resulting foal will likely be vastly different. You really do need to take into account the momma...for both the quality of the foal and the cost the breeder has into producing it. Foals from our stallion have ranged in price from 3500 to 12K. The mommas ranged from stock bred Paint mares to successful show hunters and the quality of the foals varied too. We do not have "one size fits all pricing". And no you can't charge a lot for a lesser quality foal just because it ended up with a lot of vet bills for some reason. But unless you (the theoretical breeder) just enjoy losing money then yes you do have to price a better quality foal a bit higher to TRY and make up for it. What do I get for reasonably priced foals in the above range? Not money, for sure. After 7 years at this lost money 5, broke even 1, made money one whopping year. The break even and made money years were the last 2: that means it took 5 years to get over the hump of startup costs (buy tractor, buy mares etc) so ....in the big picture average out the 7 years and I didn't REALLY make a profit yet!
My one try at frozen this year did incur costs to be sure. I got "sale" priced semen at 800 for 2 doses, 650 in vet bills at the clinic,a couple hundered more for home vet....so a little under 2K for yup...a mare that is not in foal. As a business yes, yo DO have to not "donate" those costs at some point!
So this gem "breeders are not a charitable organization..nor should they be" holds a lot of truth....and THAT is why one of the better quality foals is going to cost 10K. You can in fact pay less than 10K. Just buy one that is "nice....just not QUITE as nice". You won't pay Chevy prices for a Ferrari either.

Tiki

Aug. 2, 2007, 03:05 PM

Regardless of the cost of breeding a foaling out a horse and raising to weanling age (and I don't know of a product on the market that doesn't include the manufacturing costs in the price), but all that aside.

If you know your mares, know the stallions you breed to, know what they have produced, know what your mares have produced, you have a pretty darn good idea of how the youngster will turn out when under saddle - as long as it is handled well after the sale (at whatever age) and started well. Horses that are bred for the job just plain do the job better and easier. You don't expect a TB to work cattle, you don't expect a foundation type QH to win the Kentucky Derby, you don't expect a Haflinger to do Grand Prix dressage, you don't expect a Dartmoor to be competitive in International Puissance. You can, however, expect a Contender offspring or a Judgement or a VIP or a Quidam de Revelle to be able to jump well. You can expect a Donnerhall, or Rubinstein, or Bolero, or a Weltmeyer, or a Florestan, or a Fidermark, or a whole lot of others do be able to do upper level dressage. And for horses of that quality and prediliction, ya gots ta pay.

Silver Bells

Aug. 2, 2007, 03:14 PM

I have been following this thread....

First, It is no secret that I STRONGLY advocate supporting North American breeding programs. There is no reason to go "across the pond" in my opinion.

Second, to answer the question about paying $10,000 for a weanling, I have and I would if I felt the horse was worth it TO ME and my program. I have also paid considerably less as well!
For 10K... it better be everything I want in a young horse.

There are so many breeders out there, and quite frankly I don't know how anyone can make money at it these days. :confused: It all boils down to supply and demand.... or that old saying "get what the traffic will bear". Sometimes the traffic ain't paying 10K, and sometimes they are. :eek:

patch work farm

Aug. 2, 2007, 03:56 PM

First of all, I don't see $10K as a new phenomena, I bought a (US bred) Hanoverian weanling in 1996 for $10K (which was pretty standard then) so frankly, in as much as hay, fuel, feed, vet, farrier, supplies, etc. have gone up, the price of a weanling has actually gone down and we, as breeders are spending more to produce them.

Now, you ask how many of us sell our weanlings, usually that is when I sell mine and have sold many over the past 14 years, fewer have sold as older horses.

[On a side note, for the person that mentioned that typically TB's mature faster than WB, my latest "bloomer" was a Prince Thatch filly (1/2 TB) who took longer than any of my others to mature, her son is still trying to grow up and he is now 5!]

I just sold a one month old colt to my professional Grand Prix trainer. When he approached me, he said "I WANT TO BUY AMERICAN". His wife's side of the family is German and he has certainly bought/imported many German and Dutch horses, he has plenty of contacts and could easily have chosen to do that, BUT he realized overall, he was getting more value buying here (no trip, no euro, no transport). No, it is not the norm that I would sell to a professional and all of my others have gone to Amateurs, but overall, they have all gone to very good homes, many are out showing. My trainer does have his own farm and once weaned, he can turn him out and wait for the appropriate time to start him, but his decision was made to support the American breeder AND save himself time/money from traveling abroad. BTW, I couldn't be more thrilled and so is the stallion owner that a professional bought this colt, it is every breeder's dream!

I, on the other hand do not just turn out my youngsters and try to catch them on their 3rd birthday to see what wrestling fun I can have. They are worked with consistently to avoid exactly that. When someone comes to see any of my youngsters, regardless of age, they are shown a horse that has been handled a lot and in most cases has already been at a show or two.

All of my imported horses were wonderful situations but my last import turned out to be be the gift of my lifetime (I adore this mare) and was the last great "bargain" I would imagine came from Germany. She came pregnant to a wonderful stallion, I paid in DM at a time when the dollar was awesome compared to how it is now with the Euro, transport was $5K and I could do my own quarantine, this was in 2001. Not only did I save a fortune compared to today, but I think I made out like a bandit. Unless I could do something equivilant, I would not import again as there are MANY nice horses here to choose from in all price ranges.

It always urked me that I had imported mares bred to imported stallions but the offspring had US papers so they must be "poor quality"...what's that??!! Good for the OP that they have the ability to buy and import, that is fine-everyone is entitled to do what they want. IMHO I don't think it is necessary anymore, there are many breeders here breeding high quality foals that will someday be kicking butt in competitions!

Regarding auctions, there is a lot of difference (at least in Germany) regarding the INDUSTRY of horses...the state funds a lot of the endeavors and truly backs the industry, therefore auctions work for them. Here, I do not see it as the same, how many people answered negatively regarding profitability? To be a business and remain a business, profits are necessary. Many US auctions that I have attended have been poorly attended (you would never see that in Germany) even their horse shows have packed stands! I have to say, most people here believe that the "junk" is taken to an auction and either expect to find a bargain or something that is not going to be sound. I have participated in one auction and took a bath, something I had to do at the time but would prefer not to do again in the future if I could avoid it. Until such time as WE take it seriously, I don't see auctions changing in the US and I would love to think we could change it and make them work!

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 2, 2007, 04:08 PM

I don't think foals should be priced by what you have into them. BUT, I don't believe you should breed unless you CAN sell the foals for a bit more on average than you have invested.

The reason people don't want to pay a decent price for a youngster in the US is because we have had the Racing Industry, and PMU farms subsidizing our competitors. As long as racetrack rejects come off the track for $800. many people will just not pay the TRUE value of the product. They don't take into account all of the extra costs of buying many horses to find one that is suitable. They also don't take into account their time lost.

All of this comes back around to confidence in the product, which we can ONLY prove with a reliable and complete database. Many people feel they are just as likely to strike gold with a racing reject, as a well bred Warmblood. We need to be able to show that is just not true. We need to be able to prove that our babies grow up to be exactly what we intended for them to be when we made that stallion/mare breeding choice many years before.

If our breeders CAN'T make a profit, they WILL stop breeding. Just think about what those European prices will jump to if there is almost no American breeders in competition for the sales.

Molly Malone

Aug. 2, 2007, 04:17 PM

If our breeders CAN'T make a profit, they WILL stop breeding.

bing bing bing

we have a winner!

I asked this earlier - name one, just one, other industry that survives on making a loss.

A business makes money. That's what it is there for - that's what it does. Unless some 501c3 breeding operations start up, 10K is the price. Like it or leave it.

CAJumper

Aug. 2, 2007, 04:29 PM

To answer the original question - because if you can find a top-notch weanling for $10K, you just found yourself a BARGAIN! :D

Now, to follow down the path of pwynnorman's question of "where are the weanling buyers"...here I am. :) I also have two close friends who primarily buy young stock (0-2 years). I buy for the hunters, one buys for jumpers, and another buys for eventing. We all share ideas and experiences, and usually share the actual work involved in bringing the babies along.

Based on my experience though, those of us who are paying $10K+++ for weanlings are not looking for a nice 3' hunter or a 3'6" AA jumper. We're looking for the next regular working hunter champ, a grand prix jumper, and a 4-star eventer. Now, you can call us crazy dreamers and we would probably agree. ;) But that's the truth - we are paying for potential. Granted, some of those horses go on to do jobs we didn't expect - maybe our hopeful grand prix star is more suited to be a big eq horse, or our hunter hopeful just didn't grow enough and is now an awesome Pony Club mount. I guess my point is that I would never pay 5 figures for a weanling who I did not think *had the potential* to make it to the top of our game. At the same time, I realize that potential is just that - and I will never pay an amount that I am not willing to take a risk on (injury, suitability, ability, etc.). Not saying that the horses aren't worth the price, I just know what my personal limits are.

So yes - "we" are out there, but we are few and far between.

Oh, and just for the record - I don't think importing a horse is the way to go these days. The bloodlines are all here, we have the mares and the knowledge and the breeders (thank you all!) to produce top quality horses here in the U.S.

AdAblurr02

Aug. 2, 2007, 04:59 PM

<SNIP>
Oh, and just for the record - I don't think importing a horse is the way to go these days. The bloodlines are all here, we have the mares and the knowledge and the breeders (thank you all!) to produce top quality horses here in the U.S.

THANK YOU, CAJumper! you just made my day :) :) :)

LLDM

Aug. 2, 2007, 05:04 PM

Wow....you weren't kidding about cranky :no:

I guess by your rationale, anytime I want to sell a horse, I should calculate how many pounds of feed it has eaten since I have owned it, how much bedding & hay, how much gas I have spent hauling it around and how much I have paid in property taxes on the 12x12 stall it inhabits + turnout? Should I charge hourly for my time spent cleaning stalls? Yes....this must be the way to go instead of figuring out what the market value of the horse actually is.

I guess you could say I'm pretty insulted by your overall rationale. I bred my own foal just like the big guys do, but if I had sold it, I wouldn't have expected the buyer to account for all of my costs of doing business like you have above. (and by the way, some of your math is quite exaggerated) I can see charging 10K for some weanlings....there are some that are worth it, some that are even worth more in special cases, but what some (not all) of you need to realize is that they are not ALL worth that. Every foal you produce is not worth 10K. Some are worth 5K, some are worth 15K.....price them according to their quality and you'll have a better chance of selling them. I would not rule out the idea of ever paying 10K for a foal (even though I hope not to need another baby for quite some time), but what I won't pay for is someone's not that special foal that they list as 10K just because they think they can get it. I'm also insulted by the fact that you seem to think breeders are the only ones that have hardships like the death of a promising young horse...that happens all over, to competitors, weekend riders and breeders alike.

It's fine to make a profit, I hope that good breeders do make a profit, but your post just made me realize how dumb you think some of us *other people* really are.

Oh, so only trainers are allowed to make a profit? Pay attention - trainers do, to all the costs they put into a horse. But they have clients to pay bills on the horses they are selling too. But I can bet trainers take ALL their costs into account when it comes to billing clients and selling horses. If they didn't they would be out of business too.

So, why is it okay for trainers and not for breeders? I just don't get this thinking. As much as folks spend on lessons, coaching, boarding, training, memberships, braiding, etc., etc. why all the fuss about the initial buy in prices? None of the $$$$ is going to get them to GP any faster. :winkgrin:

SCFarm

Janet

Aug. 2, 2007, 05:08 PM

vineyridge

Aug. 2, 2007, 05:22 PM

Couple of comments--

Both the Thoroughbreds and the AQHA people have very well regarded sales/auctions for their young ones. Everyone knows about the TB sales, and as Prozini say, they do set the market ruthlessly. The AQHA has a huge sale in Oklahoma in the fall, which used to be run by the Frying Pan Park people and might still be, and 100s of horses change hands. The people who run Professional Auction Company could probably work with some kind of WB breeders association to set up a comparable auction for unstarted WBs and that might come to be the Mecca for buyers as the Oklahoma auction is for AQHA folks.

Second--when many of you talk about how you price your babies, are you shifting some costs that should be considered entertainment over to the foals. By that I mean the cost of the farm, the upkeep of barns, the hobby part of your love of horses. When you sell a weanling at any price, you're shifting the cost of its maturation, the uncertainty about its survival, and questions about quality as an adult to the buyer, and that has to be taken into account. Also, I can't imagine that you think every horse you breed is going to be worth 40k or more when trained. For most buyers who just want to ride something nice and safe and attractive, we don't care if the horse is bred to be a GP jumper or a GP dressage horse or a 4**** event horse, and quite frankly most of the market would be unable to spend 40k on a riding horse.

PWynn is right on in many of the comments she's made about the current market being made up of middle aged women who "can barely ride their way out of a paper bag" and don't want to have to put up with training no babies. There has to be a place for getting those people on horses they can enjoy, and they are the huge majority of the market.

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 2, 2007, 05:24 PM

Again, thank you all so much for your responses.

The reason why I posted this question was to receive information just like what I am reading on this thread. Please understand that I am not saying I will ONLY buy in Europe and that American bred horses are crap - never said that at all. I raised my own foals out of my own mare and I know what it's like to enjoy the beautiful process of raising your own baby. I keep all of my babies (out of great affection for their mother) and so I don't have any experience with pricing, selling, and/or buying because I have never been in this situation before. I also never had to put more than 5k in my babies even with stud fee, vet, board, etc... - perhaps I am the exception. That is why I am asking you all for your advice and opinions on pricing. Unfortunately, my mare is now 23 and I don't feel that I should breed her again. I am also moving into dressage more and would like to switch to a breed that is more suitable for it such as the Hanoverian. I currently have Irish Sport Horses and do eventing and dressage. This is probably why I prefer the heavier style WB.

I plan to purchase a Hanoverian weanling in the next few years and I wanted to start doing my research. I guess I just had a bit of "sticker shock" because I simply wasn't expecting the price of weanlings to be so high. My bad - I just didn't know that was industry standard. If the true value of the baby is 10k I will pay it - I am not trying to cheat the breeders or prevent them from making a profit, but I do agree that the price for a weanling should not be based on a dollar in/dollar out scheme. Sometimes, you get a boring brown baby with nothing spectacular about him/her and you have to cut your losses. Sometimes, you get that spectacular chestnut with 4 white socks and a blaze and even if the conformation isn't ideal, you know it will sell fast and high.

I also did not know that the cost of importing has skyrocketed. Thank you for enlightening me on that matter. For the person who suggested that I might commit fraud (evading taxes) due to my "shift some funds" comment, you are totally wrong. What I meant is I would have to "shift some funds" around between me and my parents since they have a bank in Europe!!!! I am not trying to skim on paying tax! I also don't expect to find a good weanling/yearling in Europe and ship it over here for any less than 20k-25k. Although my cousin paid about 5K for a gorgeous 4 year old, the downside was he was unbroke and a bit wild. But for that price, I will take unbroke and bit wild anyday since the same horse would go for triple the price in the US. My own mare, in 1995, would have cost double the price if I purchased her here. Based on several of the comments on this site, I guess my experiences are outdated or no longer relevant. I accept that.

I still think it's a lot to ask to pay 10k for the average weanling. Perhaps, I will need to save some more money and wait till he/she is 2 or 3, that way the gamble and overall risk will be less. Personally, if I was a breeder I would try to sell the weanlings as cheap as possible just so you can get rid of the overhead and cost of feeding them for a year or more. Then again, I have never bred horses for profit so I may have no place to talk.

Black Forest

Aug. 2, 2007, 05:25 PM

"Why should I pay $10,000 for a weanling". The answer is - you shouldn't. You should consider taking up tennis. You can play at a public park for free, your equipment will cost $100 and your greatest risk of injury is to hit yourself with the racket.

Barbara, that was a fabulous posting! The whole of it - but I only left the last bit.

Frankly I have severe trouble believing that someone who wants a really nice well bred (top and bottom) foal with the perspective of going a long way up the ranks would have any reason to whinge about a $ 10 000 price tag.

Yes you can buy WB foals in Europe for $ 3000 but they'll cost you near $ 10 000 by the time they're home and I can almost guarantee you that you would have spent your money MUCH wiser buying a really decent $ 10 000 foal in the USA.

The $ 3000 foals over here are almost invariably priced that way for a reason. Usually because they are nice horses that will make someone a nice Riding horse for fun and the lower levels.

It's a mix calculation when you breed many - you will (if you do it right) get some potential superstar babies that will have a huge pricetag, then you have the middle lot that are priced averagely and then you have those that will not set the world on fire so they go cheap.

I can see the point of importing a $ 40 000 weanling if it was worth the pricetag and maybe lines that are not (yet) available in the US. I see the point of importing competition horses, I can see the point of importing super quality broodmares with rare and hard to get lines.

I can not, for the life of me, understand why someone would spend the money to import a "nice enough" foal - what is the point?

Just so one can say "Oh I imported Übermeyer from Germany you know....!"

There are so many great breeders in the US with fabulous mares using great stallions with skill and intelligence. So if I were in the US and had 10 000 to spend on a foal - I'd get it in the US.

If I wanted a made competition horse I'd probably import simply because even with the € / $ being as shitty as it is I still think that at this moment in time I'd probably get more for my money and more choice .

But that too will be changing rapidly!

I have seen a good dozen of foals bred by people who's website's I visited from links from their posts here that I would absolutely and utterly adore to have - and the whole concept of "Oh I'll import a € 3000 weanling from Germany / Europe because it's better value" totally alien

Remember that the continental Europeans are usually very realistic about their foals and when they price a foal at € 3000 they will have had their reasons - and you'd have to be extremely lucky not to find out sooner or later just WHY this foals was so cheap.........

Unless of course the "Überhall was imported you know..." is the real drivng force.....

Norsire

Aug. 2, 2007, 05:32 PM

[QUOTE=patch work farm;2600791]First of all, I don't see $10K as a new phenomena, I bought a (US bred) Hanoverian weanling in 1996 for $10K (which was pretty standard then) so frankly, in as much as hay, fuel, feed, vet, farrier, supplies, etc. have gone up, the price of a weanling has actually gone down and we, as breeders are spending more to produce them.QUOTE]

This is so true. That is what I keep asking myself, why has all the cost of producing the same quality of foals gone up, but the price to sell them has gone done over the last 20 years????? :confused:

Can you imagine if every breeder bred nothing for one year what the market would be like the following year? Of course this would never happen. I have seen some top breeders over the years throw in the towel and say enough is enough. We also seem to have more illness, more droughts and many things that effect the cost of breeding, that has nothing to do with the quality of the horse being produced.

HeyYouNags

Aug. 2, 2007, 05:45 PM

I guess by your rationale, anytime I want to sell a horse, I should calculate how many pounds of feed it has eaten since I have owned it, how much bedding & hay, how much gas I have spent hauling it around and how much I have paid in property taxes on the 12x12 stall it inhabits + turnout? Should I charge hourly for my time spent cleaning stalls?

Umm, I thought it was basic economics that the costs associated with creating something dictate its price. So yes, the "base price" of a foal, assuming one is trying to stay in business and at least break even, equals the costs associated with "making" a foal to the point of its sale. That would be the average price, with some a little higher and some a little lower, depending on quality.

I'm no tax expert, but if you're calling your farm a business, the IRS expects you to include most of those things as your expenses. There may be quite a few of us who don't deduct every expense we legally could, because then we'd never ever show a profit, and the IRS would declare the business a hobby.

I don't think anyone breeding actually factors in their labor costs, because then the base price would be a half gazillion dollars. :p

Seriously, how else would one determine a price? And you need to compare apples to apples - not the price of PMU foals to the price of well bred Hanos.

Call me naive, but I don't agree that "plain brown" versus "chestnut with lots of chrome" has much of anything to do with prices of Hanos, or of any dressage bred horse for that matter. Hunters might pay more for the flashy markings, but probably not a lot.

CAJumper

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:04 PM

Umm, I thought it was basic economics that the costs associated with creating something dictate its price.

Actually, I disagree with that somewhat. I think the market determines the price, and the seller has to determine if their price-cost equation justifies the existence of the business. Let me preface this by saying that I am NOT a breeder and I am NOT a professional in the horseworld. I am in marketing though...

Anyway, I think setting the price of a foal based on what it cost to produce that foal just doesn't make sense. What if you have a super star foal that is really worth $50K? Wouldn't you sell it at $50K and not at some stud fee + mare costs + vet fees + 10% equation. You would sell the foal for what it is worth. Of course, not every breeder can (or has) produce foals of that quality time and time again. But I would think that breeders would be aiming to produce that superstar foal with every crossing, and that in reality the really successful breeders would produce somewhat of a bell curve of quality - the majority of horses in that "nice-very nice" range that sell at a modest profit, the duds that sell at a loss, and the superstars that make a huge profit and keep the place in business. ;) The ability to meet this goal would be what defines the operation as a successful business...as opposed to a money-sucking hobby. Right? And part of this challenge is the "volume" issue which puts smaller breeders at a disadvantage...which could just lead us off on another tangent entirely! :lol: I do think that the cost of horses, like everything else, goes up with inflation. As hay/vet/land costs rise, so will the price of horses.

But honestly - I am not a breeder and not in horses with any notion of making a dime. I hope I didn't offend anyone, but just thought I'd offer a different perspective.

camohn

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:09 PM

1) "Anyway, I think setting the price of a foal based on what it cost to produce that foal just doesn't make sense."
Refer back to the earlier quote:
breeders are not a charitable organization..nor should they be
Now there is an element of common sense here. And no...not every foal someone breeds is going to be worth 3500 or more just because that is how much it cost to produce it. Looking on DH or Equine.com there are pots of ranches with 700.00 weanlings for sale, as well as rescues and OTTs and PMU foals. Nope...not everyone wants or needs a pricier show horse. For those that want a nice trail horse there are plenty of them for sale at low prices. We are talking about someone that wants an upper level show prospect by Mr. Fancypants WB out of a proven mareline. Mr.Fancypants and the Wondermare did not appear for free to produce Wunderkins Junior. And in spite of said parents WK Junior does not always come out as good as anticipated and yup...he has to be priced accordingly.The bell curve in the posting above is correct.

2) "Second--when many of you talk about how you price your babies, are you shifting some costs that should be considered entertainment over to the foals. By that I mean the cost of the farm, the upkeep of barns, the hobby part of your love of horses."

For the IRS, yes I count everything for tax purposes. For the pricing of foals, no I do not. I count actual grain/vet bills, the value of the stud fee, a percentage of the cost of the purchase of the mare (20% to be exact),and the value of the hay. We do bale our own but I do take into account what it would cost to buy it. I do have SWEAT equity in that hay; hay baling is not much fun. I also do not specifically charge for labor. That seems to be a "freebie" around here too. But....all that work IS why a breeder wants to make a "profit" over the operating expenses. We are a "hobby" farm in that we have day jobs (because no you can't make a living selling horses!) and live here regardless of the horse sales, so I do not attempt to put a value on that. For some of the bigger farms that truly do this as a full time job then I think it is fair that they DO take into account the cost of the property, it is certainly a cost of operation. And good Lord tractors are expensive!! For those of you that think weaners are expensive you should go tractor shopping!!

RiverOaksFarm

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:19 PM

...and there are alot of others with their own places, or paying reasonable board, for whom buying a weanling should work equally well.

There are? Where?

In my case, about 1 1/2 hrs. east of you on Hwy 40 :D. I can show you what my three weanlings grew up to be, and we can have a cocktail on the porch:).

All kidding aside though, I don't think I am that special or unique in having my own place and having the ability to start my own youngsters, which is why I said it should work "equally well" for others. If someone is in a situation where they are paying exorbitant board, then sure, it makes less sense to buy a weanling -- but it worked quite well for me, and should work equally well for others in similar circumstances. I'm surely not the only person in this country with my own place and/or paying reasonable board, who has the ability to bring along a youngster -- if only I were so special, lol;).

And for anyone wondering "who buys weanlings" -- I'm a pro. who has trained thru FEI (but not a Big Name), with my own place, and a limited budget, and I was the market for three weanlings over the last 7 years. As I said in my previous post, I could not have touched these horses as 3+ year olds, for what I've got in them, and one is the nicest horse I've ever owned (100% mine!), and it only makes me smile wider to think what I paid for him.

I also had my first homebred foal this year. I was thrilled with him, and am equally proud to have a sale pending on him already as a weanling, although not at 10K..... but then he's not a warmblood either (though I think he's just as nice...;)!)

:)

flshgordon

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:24 PM

Oh, so only trainers are allowed to make a profit? Pay attention - trainers do, to all the costs they put into a horse. But they have clients to pay bills on the horses they are selling too. But I can bet trainers take ALL their costs into account when it comes to billing clients and selling horses. If they didn't they would be out of business too.

So, why is it okay for trainers and not for breeders? I just don't get this thinking. As much as folks spend on lessons, coaching, boarding, training, memberships, braiding, etc., etc. why all the fuss about the initial buy in prices? None of the $$$$ is going to get them to GP any faster. :winkgrin:

SCFarm

Never said that at all, nor did I mean to imply it (apologize if I did) but the way Au Panda had her reasoning going, she's factoring everything in including the kitchen sink and assuming there is no overhead cost of doing business (there IS by the way in ANY business).

I have known a lot of trainers in my life and yes....they factor in the big expenses (as would anyone) like *x* amount per month of training, etc but they don't have the time to think up nickel and dime lists to get every cent of their money back. They figure out roughly what major expenses they have in the horse and price it accordingly (or higher in some cases) to allow for a profit.

And again....part of my beef was the overexaggeration of costs.

CAJumper

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:26 PM

1) "Anyway, I think setting the price of a foal based on what it cost to produce that foal just doesn't make sense."
Refer back to the earlier quote:
breeders are not a charitable organization..nor should they be

Oh, I certainly don't think they are! :lol: I guess my point is that you pay for the end product. A successful breeder, I would hope, is producing an end product that is worth more than the cost of producing it. You can't show me a foal with bad conformation that can't jump and is a terrible mover, and tell me it's worth $10K because it cost that much to breed it. On the other hand, you can show me a foal that is clearly worth $50K and I'm not going to argue "but it only cost you $8K to produce!" If it's a $50K foal or a $5K foal - that's what it is worth. That was my point. Horses aren't like cars, they are not identical products coming off an assembly line. They are more like art, where there is a wide variation in the quality (and value) of the final piece.

Silver Bells

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:27 PM

To answer the original question - because if you can find a top-notch weanling for $10K, you just found yourself a BARGAIN! :D
I totally disagree with this statement!

Oh, and just for the record - I don't think importing a horse is the way to go these days. The bloodlines are all here, we have the mares and the knowledge and the breeders (thank you all!) to produce top quality horses here in the U.S.

On the other hand... I couldn't agree with you more on this comment!:yes:

There are many QUALITY & WELL BRED weanlings out there for every price range. I have to say I believe 10K is at the top of the market for a weanling.

flshgordon

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:27 PM

When you buy a car, you expect that the price is greater than the cost to produce the car. Sure, you try to negotiate the price, and sometimes you can get a car for less than it cost to "make".

But when you SELL a car, you don't expect to sell it for more than your total cost.

Same idea.

Th breeders are "manufacturing" horses, and if they can't sell them for (at least on average) more than the cost of production, they won't keep breeding.

so now I'm confused....according to SCF above, both trainers/sellers & breeders are entitled to a profit (which I agree with). But you're saying breeders are the only ones who should profit now? :confused: Color me confused....

I think the key to your above argument (which is what I tried to say in mine) is ON AVERAGE....yes on average they should make a profit, but not on every foal because every one is not comparable in quality to the next.

CAJumper

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:35 PM

On the other hand... I couldn't agree with you more on this comment!:yes:

:lol: :D Well, I was just speaking from personal experience. I have seen lots of very nice weanlings for sale just under $10K. But I would say it is very difficult (for me, at least!) to find a "top notch" weanling for close to or under $10K. But that was just my experience, fwiw.

CAJumper

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:37 PM

I think the key to your above argument (which is what I tried to say in mine) is ON AVERAGE....yes on average they should make a profit, but not on every foal because every one is not comparable in quality to the next.

Exactly - thank you! I was trying to make that point...but never quite got there. :lol: :rolleyes: That was my whole point of the "bell curve" of foals, and how volume plays an role (perhaps unfairly so).

flshgordon

Aug. 2, 2007, 06:40 PM

Actually, I disagree with that somewhat. I think the market determines the price, and the seller has to determine if their price-cost equation justifies the existence of the business. Let me preface this by saying that I am NOT a breeder and I am NOT a professional in the horseworld. I am in marketing though...

Anyway, I think setting the price of a foal based on what it cost to produce that foal just doesn't make sense. What if you have a super star foal that is really worth $50K? Wouldn't you sell it at $50K and not at some stud fee + mare costs + vet fees + 10% equation. You would sell the foal for what it is worth. Of course, not every breeder can (or has) produce foals of that quality time and time again. But I would think that breeders would be aiming to produce that superstar foal with every crossing, and that in reality the really successful breeders would produce somewhat of a bell curve of quality - the majority of horses in that "nice-very nice" range that sell at a modest profit, the duds that sell at a loss, and the superstars that make a huge profit and keep the place in business. ;) The ability to meet this goal would be what defines the operation as a successful business...as opposed to a money-sucking hobby. Right? And part of this challenge is the "volume" issue which puts smaller breeders at a disadvantage...which could just lead us off on another tangent entirely! :lol: I do think that the cost of horses, like everything else, goes up with inflation. As hay/vet/land costs rise, so will the price of horses.

But honestly - I am not a breeder and not in horses with any notion of making a dime. I hope I didn't offend anyone, but just thought I'd offer a different perspective.

This is the most logical way to look at it I have read yet. Breeders just can't expect to make their money back on every single foal because there are going to be culls. (just like trainers can't expect to make a profit on every horse they sell....some of those are "culls" as well) The *superstars* should make up for those and the nice foals in the middle make the mid range profit to keep the business going.

Just like the analogy of cars earlier.....the fancy sporty ones sell for 400K when they cost 100K to produce, the midline popular gas-efficient models sell for a modest profit and the models no one wants sell at a loss.

I understand that the emotion of breeding enters into this argument and makes it a difficult one, but I don't feel like as someone said earlier that I should pay for all of the breeder's "entertainment" costs. Everyone has a mortgage to pay so why should I have to pay a portion of yours?

Molly Malone

Aug. 2, 2007, 07:00 PM

There's a very simple way to decide if breeders are ripping off the buyers.

Hands up here who breeds as their full time job.

If producing foals was such a simple and profitable business, we'd all be sitting on our fannies paying someone else, wouldn't we? We wouldn't be working another job, full or part time.

Yes, there's a bell curve to prices, of course there is, which is why the best ones are 10K, second tier 7.5K, third tier 5K. But what you must understand, is that the amount of effort and money that goes into the 10K weanling is the same as the unsellable one in the back pasture that is now 5 years old and will probably still be there by the time I die.

So yes, the good ones I produce you are going to pay for. You are also going to pay a small amount towards the bad one. Because breeding can be a crap shoot, no matter how much you stack the odds in your favor.

But I won't even try to breed good ones if I can't at least break even over the long haul.

M. O'Connor

Aug. 2, 2007, 07:07 PM

My this conversation is moving fast...I tried to jump in back on page 4:

I have a theory...and as a totally neophyte breeder who has yet to put a foal on the ground, I fully accept that my theory might be deemed completely off-base by you more experienced breeders or buyers...

My theory: Not that many weanlings ARE sold as weanlings. I assume that all weanlings cost about the same amount to produce, and there are some breeders who do it for a bit more, some a bit less. But "cost" is a different economic concept than "price." Just because the stud fee was 'x,' the vet bills were 'y,' and the mare's expenses have been 'z,' doesn't really make the foal worth what it cost. Aside from pedigree, and apparent conformation traits (that probably will change in detail but not in overall theme as it grows), I can't see how anyone could come up with an accurate way to determine the actual value of a weanling. This certainly would present an obstacle to determining a price, for both buyer and seller.

Therefore, it is more sensible to anticipate that a breeder can sell more slightly older horses than weanlings...and that the more obvious performance prospects among the older horses can command higher prices, balancing out the lower prices that their less capable companions will bring--I think that the average price for this entire group might possibly be representative of the actual value of a weanling, if the statistics that pwynn rightly craves could be obtained. I think that for those who are willing to part with weanlings at 5K-ish, the overiding factor in making that decision is that they probably aren't losing money, and there might be a small profit to count on in that figure...

<<The quality you will get for the price in the US is MUCH higher than in Europe. Here is an example. My US bred colt sold for $5,500. The other guy sold in Europe for equal to $55,000. (US) The photo is taken at a slightly different timing, and my boy is a bit younger, but I believe you can see they are VERY similar boys. I am sure the $55,000. guy has a more in demand pedigree, but for a riding horse, ...>>

As I say, I've yet to put a foal on the ground...but I think I have a nice mare...she's a TB whose dam was a very successful junior jumper in the late 80's early 90's...

Her sire: http://www.pedigreequery.com/prize+ring
Her dam: http://www.pedigreequery.com/crystal+glen

Her picture (at Upperville this year, her second jumper show): http://www.uppervillephotos.com/show...d=7&img_id=883

She's a very talented mare, only starting her performance career. I wanted to get a foal from her sooner rather than later, and continue to "make her up" a bit more this year. After the foal, we (meaning myself, my trainer Joe Fargis, and Camille's rider, Pato Muente) are reasonably sure that she'll at the least be a children's or junior jumper for my daughter; there's a shot she'll be better than that, but she'll be 9 when she resumes competing, so that would be a bit more than we deserve to hope for. I've taken a gamble that for the time being (since my daughter is still on a large pony), producing this foal is the mare's "highest and best use."

I bred her to As di Villagana...

Based on Fairview's photos, I think that all I can assume is that when it's a weanling, it might, MIGHT be worth...hmmmm between 5K and $55K...Is there any information given above that could lead anyone to narrow that down? In utero? As a foal? Yearling? 2yo?

Is there any reason that the OP wouldn't consider buying my foal, or Fairview's? Is there any reason we shouldn't price these youngsters at around 10K?

M. O'Connor

Aug. 2, 2007, 07:15 PM

When you buy a car, you expect that the price is greater than the cost to produce the car.

But the thing with cars is...it's like that assmebly line in Economics 101; the first prototype is very expensive to make...being able to reliably reproduce the exact same model of car from your assembly line is what allows the manufacturer to come up with a formula to determine the price of subsequently produced cars based on costs.

Cars aren't individuals.

Even with the same mare and the same stallion, you can up the odds that you'll get a nice horse, but you couldn't say with any certainty that all the get will have the same performance capability. In a sense, every one of them is a prototype.

So horses, unlike many other commodities, can't be accurately valuated based on cost. It's just a fact that cost, price, and value are all separate concepts.

Tiki

Aug. 2, 2007, 07:26 PM

Uhhhhh, CAJumper - either you jumped in at the end, or haven't been reading for comprehension. WE CAN'T SELL WEANLINGS FOR $50,000 LIKE THEY DO IN EUROPE!!!!!

when many of you talk about how you price your babies, are you shifting some costs that should be considered entertainment over to the foals. By that I mean the cost of the farm, the upkeep of barns, the hobby part of your love of horses. Entretainment??? cost of the farm, upkeep of barns - including mucking out????? :lol: :D :)
:winkgrin: :lol: :D ;)

:winkgrin: :) :D :lol: :lol: :lol:

:eek: ;) :lol: :D :winkgrin:

Oh Lord. Someone please pass the wine and chocolat. Oh dear, my stomach hurts from laughing so hard at all the entertainment in my life.

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:15 PM

So you are going to try and sell them for 25k? I visited your site...the dam has Northern Dancer bloodlines....:lol:

akrogirl

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:16 PM

And...

What is paid in Europe is totally irrelevant. The American market is dominated by amateurs guided by trainers and paying very expensive board. [Where are all these $10K weanlings being boarded, BTW?] The equine market here is entirely different than over there--at least performance-horse wise. Breeder-to-breeder is another kettle of fish, of course (one even harder to rationalize).

In fact, let's do a poll. Who out there is currently waiting for a $10K weanling to grow up and what do you plan to do with it once it has?

I have bought three youngsters over the past three years from a friend who breeds very nice WB's, and have thoroughly enjoyed watching them grow up.

My oldest, a Zone HB champion last year, is now 4 and all the trainers who have seen her have loved her. I originally bought her as a jumper prospect, but the trainers all seem to think she will be a hack winner so we plan to see how she does in the Hunters to begin with.

My 3 year old Hanoverian filly will probably go either Hunter or dressage. We still aren't sure about my Art Deco baby, but she is more likely to go jumper or dressage. I will let my horses tell me what they like best :-)

Ironically, when we took my oldest to her mare inspection, the German inpsector told us all that he was so impressed with the quality of the foals he had seen over here that he was hoping to persuade a few people to come over from Germany to buy some of them!!!

Galileo1998

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:20 PM

So you are going to try and sell them for 25k? I visited your site...the dam has Northern Dancer bloodlines....:lol:

The horse for sale on her site is a two year old - it was born in 2005.

Silver Bells

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:32 PM

So you are going to try and sell them for 25k? I visited your site...the dam has Northern Dancer bloodlines....:lol:

Whoa... pump your brakes my dear GDQ! :eek:

You asked about weanlings?!?! Then comes yearling, then 2 year old, then three year old... you do the math! :yes:
I have often heard "10K per year" ... again you do the math. :winkgrin:

I just sold my palomino yearling KWPN WB/TB cross that won at Devon, to a canadian olympic eventing family for not much more than this weanling price point. She had good bloodlines, will mature to at least 16.3, and moved amazing. I just don't do fillies....:no: I can assure you thay after keeping her almost a year and showing her successfully... I may have broke even.
Everyone deserves to make money. But let's face it, it's a tough business. We all need to do our part and keep our money on this side of the Atlantic... :D

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:37 PM

Silver Bells

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:42 PM

OH DEAR GOD - let the flaming begin!

Take a shot of whatever and relax.

Here's to ya! :)

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:44 PM

Bottoms up!:lol::lol:

spacely

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:49 PM

OH DEAR GOD - let the flaming begin! I just thought it was funny considering I JUST said in an earlier post about paying top dollar for a chestnut with 4 white socks and a blaze if it was QUALITY and BOOM there is one right in front of me. Although, the TB dam is a turnoff for me...but that is my personal preference.

Well, aren't you special.:rolleyes: Babies (and horses in general) are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them. If you truly think you can get a better deal in Europe, then by all means, go for it. However, we are producing some fabulous horses right here in the US of A.:yes: You seem to be missing the boat there.

You're also missing the boat on the TB's. A good TB is worth its weight in gold. And, by gold, I do not mean the fancy colors they come in these days either.:no: (Sorry SB, not directed at you.)

egontoast

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:50 PM

The purchase price is such a little part of the global expense of the horse over the years . Any weanling is a risk, heck, any horse is a risk. A few thousand dollars difference in the purchase price is the least of your worries long term if you are counting your pennies.

ALL other things being equal, it costs the same to keep the $4000 horse as the $10,OOO horse, so IMO you might as well buy the best horse you can buy, if possible. You are going to be responsible for this horse.

CAJumper

Aug. 2, 2007, 08:57 PM

Uhhhhh, CAJumper - either you jumped in at the end, or haven't been reading for comprehension. WE CAN'T SELL WEANLINGS FOR $50,000 LIKE THEY DO IN EUROPE!!!!!

I can't quite tell (hard to read intent through the web!) if you are joking/teasing with that comment... But yes, weanlings do sell for that much in this country. Again, these are rare and by no means the average! But there are $50K weanling/yearlings around. I did not just make that number up. :) Then again, when "nice", just broke, unshown there year olds are approaching six figures, it's easy to see how a weanling *could* sell for that much money.

vandenbrink

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:02 PM

I sell my youngsters for what I think I can get for them. If I have a weanling priced at 10 000 and it isn't selling it means I'm pretty confident that I can get 15-17 for it as a 2 or 3 year old and would rather hold on to it.

The day I sold my first $10 000 dollar weanling was a day of celebration that is for sure. I'm a small breeder, and I bred something really special that someone just "had to have". As I get a better name in the business and make more contacts I'm confident those types of sales should become more common.

I have been watching the hunter market and do agree this is the most solid market for young prospects in North America. As a result have made some changes in my breeding decisions.

There will allways be a market for good quality horses that will competitive in the showring. Showing horses is an expensive hobby and there are many people who will pay for quality.

pwynnnorman

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:08 PM

Long, hard day. Nice to come back to an interesting conversation...

We're looking for the next regular working hunter champ, a grand prix jumper, and a 4-star eventer. ...So yes - "we" are out there, but we are few and far between.

'Zactamundo, CAJumper!

I'm not saying (because it would be silly to say so) that no one sells $10K weanlings. The bluff I'm calling is that all that many do. For significant numbers to be selling, that would mean bucking so many socioeconomic trends in this country as to be ridiculous. CAJumper is dead on in that other than the vanity folks (I like that term!), only someone SERIOUS about turning that baby into a superstar in some sport is going to fork over that much--and they know what they are looking for and what it's worth.

Another trend belied by what is stated by too many here: that there are a lot of buyers out there that know what they are looking for. What baloney! They see a hot name, a cute face and lots of white markings and have money to burn, so they burn it. But even they are relatively rare. Again, you can't say one thing on one thread and then contradict it on another, but that's often what goes on.

You also have to parcel out all those other factors that have nothing to do with the comparative value of the beast: location, facilities, contacts, longevity, investment...I think what the OP was getting at--and I am, too--is that you can find tons of weanlings who will do exactly the job the majority wants them to do (the majority, mind you--not the CAJumper rarity) for a lot less than $10K. All you have to do is leave the coasts--especially ignoring Virginia, Pennsyvania and California (anyone happen to notice who on this thread is posting from where?).

I'd also like to chime in and agree with whoever said (a while ago) that all babies move great. One thing that 20 years of breeding and conversing and observing has taught me is "never judge them too soon: good, bad or indifferent." There are indeed rock solid mechanical reasons why what you might see at this age is NOT what you get at that age. And what about temperament? Trainability? Soundness? Aptitude? Tons more reasons why, no matter how much the breeder put into it, it DOES have to be a bargain before most buyers will consider it. Over and over and over again we acknowledge in our discussions that most riders don't know or care about pedigree. Only WE do. Only WE have faith that breeding the best to the best will produce the best (alas, mainly because we get to define what is "best" in our little worlds--while the rest of the world often defines it totally differently!).

It's also quite revealing that most...what? "Supporters"...(of the $10K-weaning-makes-sense side of this discussion)...are into dressage. Egad, the number of variables out there that impact the progress and ultimate level of a dressage horse are enormous. And what about that oh-so-often stated observation of MANY pros that most amateurs can't ride all that big movement anyway? (So why would that many buy it, even if they could be sure it'd still be there by the time the beast was backed?) That's why I asked what those who have bought the $10K weaner plan to do with it. (And why, again, I'd exclude hunters from that question. A good hunter prospect IS a good prospect because its either ammy friendly or pro worthy. It's wunnerful that it's just that clear--in hunters. That aspect is as clear as mud in dressage, IMO.)

Y'know, one discussion we had in the past which sticks with me whenever others come up is that one about "breeding for the middle market." Do you remember that, folks? So, where does the $10k weanling fit into the majority of breeders who claim to target the middle? Or is it that, deep down, nearly everyone is indeed trying to rely on attracting the vanity buyer (because the goal-oriented buyer is either rare or knows better than to overpay for such a gamble)? Indeed, maybe that's not so far-fetched [targeting vanity], given the nature of wealthy women who love horses...especially in California :D (I'm just kidding about California).

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:13 PM

Long, hard day. Nice to come back to an interesting conversation...

Y'know, one discussion we had in the past which sticks with me whenever others come up is that one about "breeding for the middle market." Do you remember that, folks? So, where does the $10k weanling fit into the majority of breeders who claim to target the middle? Or is it that, dep down, nearly everyone trying to rely on attracting the vanity buyer (because the goal-oriented buyer is either rare or knows better than to overpay for such a gamble)? Indeed, maybe that's not so far-fetched [tareting vanity], given the nature of wealthy women who love horses...especially in California :D (I'm just kidding about California).

WELL SAID!!!!!! Here's to you my friend as I take another shot...

Silver Bells

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:19 PM

ALL other things being equal, it costs the same to keep the $4000 horse as the $10,OOO horse, so IMO you might as well buy the best horse you can buy, if possible. You are going to be responsible for this horse.

AMEN! :sigh:

BTW Spacely >.. I love the line "a good TB is worth it's weight in gold"... I will just add "especially when it is gold"! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Donella

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:20 PM

We imported a mare two years ago (albiet a friesian bc they are much harder to find domestically) from Holland and it cost us over 10 k with quarentine on top of her purchase price. I really have NO idea how the OP thinks she is going to find a top quality weanling in europe AND pay import fees and still end up getting a better deal than she could find here:lol:.

I was just visiting the a German Hanoverian breeder friend of mine yesterday and he was talking about how in Germany, the state farm goes and buys up as many top weanling colts (out of sps mares) as they can to raise as potential stallions. He told me they pay at least 10 k euro for them, minimum. There are alot of people over there that do that, I really don't think many of the top foals leave Germany for anything other than the big bucks at the elite auctions ect OR if you are really lucky and have a very good contact that can help you out, and even then, they know what they have, and you are going to pay for it.

When I was at my friends yesterday, I was looking at the two hanoverian foals he has this year. One is a lovely, leggy filly by Londonderry out of a gorgeous elite rosentau mare. The other is a absolutely TOP colt by Don Frederico out of an Elite Longchamp mare. He said if he were still in Germany, the colt would have been prepped or bought as a stallion prospect, but because we are here, he will not get the same dollar for him. These horses are as good as anything you will find in europe, with much more invested in getting them on the ground (I know for a fact he pays 800 a cycle for frozen, usually taking a few cycles to get them in foal, plus the 1000 per straw that Londonderry and DF semen costs), and I know he doesn't sell his for much more than ten, sometimes less. I really don't know what else a person would want if you are in the market for a top wb foal or WHY ON EARTH he should sell them for less.??

I wouldn't do the weanling thing if I didn't have my own place, or access to really cheap board, but if you do, this is totally the way to go. I myself bought the full sister to the colt mentioned above last year, and I know when she is three I will have a mare that I very likely could not afford to buy. So it really can work out super and the huge bonus is you have something you can start your way at a young age.

spacely

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:21 PM

BTW Spacely >.. I love the line "a good TB is worth it's weight in gold"... I will just add "especially when it is gold"! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

My dear, you & I are just going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I'll stick to my red & brown TB's thank you very much.:winkgrin::lol::p

Sister Margarita

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:24 PM

I believe that many things will dictate the price one can ask for a foal or any horse for that matter. However, I have done both, breeding and importing young horses, and I can say there is a lot in Europe that is good and a lot I would not consider importing. One has to really know what they are looking at and who they are dealing with. Many well known horsemen and horse "rearers" are waiting for the good ones, and they preview many of the breeders' best before they go to the general market. Add to that the cost of the import, the RISK of import (I have had injuries, and know that many youngsters are very difficult to ship/quarantine). That is not to say one cannot find a very special young horse, and I know many who have. But they also paid a good price, now with the exchange, more than 10 to 15K, and shouldered a ton of risk.
Foals that are cheap are not a sure thing because they come from Europe.

I have bred a super imported mare with top bloodlines deep into her pedigree, who competed successfully, was awarded top status with her registry, to one of the top European stallions by frozen semen. The resulting foals are par with many of the really good ones abroad. Do I think I can get a similar price to an identically bred foal in Europe?

no.

But a foal there with 7/8's the same pedigree went for nearly 100K Euros. I would however be thrilled with 10 or 15 as a foal. And I am not the only breeder who invested all that into the foal. I see so many really good foals here, so many really knowledgeable and dedicated breeders who understand the pedigrees. Their foal are worth the higher pricetag on the world-wide market, but many buyers are thinking domestic market prices

"Imported" turns a lot of heads but the foals there are not necessarily better.

Most likely I will have to raise these foals to riding age and fortunately I have the farm to do it. Still I will be lucky to break even. I will consider my reward seeing these foals do well and participating in the sport as a breeder. If I get a small profit out of it, I will consider myself lucky. Or hopefully I will end up with a really nice horse for myself or a student.

Not the stuff a sure-fire business plan is made of, but I love it anyway.

I am not saying the $5K foal is not worth it, and in fact it may be worth more. I am not saying that because I have at least 10K into my foal with semen, repro vet, mare care, time, labor, etc., that I will get it or should get it.

The market will determine that, and if there are many nice foals with good movement selling for under 10K, it is likely I won't get 10 to 15K for mine.

Donella

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:29 PM

Vanity buying...that may be the case, but alot of people are educated in bloodlines and realise the strength of a excellent genetics. If I buy a nice weanling who's sire is putting out top dressage horse after top dressage horse in Germany, out of a mare with a superb dam line, who herself is by a top dressage producer, I have a VERY good chance of getting something very similiar.

I get it's a gamble but here is another spin on it : use my ten k to buy a real fancy, well bred Hano filly and rely on the likelihood that she will resemble her parents OR spend ten k on a four year old draft cross type that is MUCH more of a gamble if you are thinking of getting anywhere competatively.

Silver Bells

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:36 PM

My dear, you & I are just going to have to agree to disagree on that one. I'll stick to my red & brown TB's thank you very much.:winkgrin::lol::p

XXOO :winkgrin:

Seriously, buying a weanling is risky... but it is also rewarding in so many ways. It's the in utero stuff I stay away from. I'd rather see what I am buying! Anyway, I want to sell my big chestnut so I can buy more youngsters... it is definitely an addiction.
It's not the purchase price so much... it's the up keep. :eek:

Allyn M

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:38 PM

This thread is going so fast and is so interesting that I hope I can contribute something helpful before it takes off in another direction.

First :about European purchases .... My comments will only be applicable for jumping bloodlines ...... When we purchase breeding stock overseas we always shop for young fillies and I will have done as much research on where the available horses will be as I possibly can . I usually buy from commercial breeders who sell everything and I almost always buy proven bloodlines . As a rule the big stud farms will have arrangements with the smaller breeders to always breed the promising young stallions and will sell the proven stallions frozen semen overseas or to the major commercial breeders who have BIG tanks with frozen semen of all the great stallions. If you are going to purchase the major bloodlines of any discipline you are going to have to pay for it.
For instance I was looking for stock by a certain stallion and the only way I could possibly get him was by purchasing in utero for 20,000 Euro. At todays rates that is 27,405.00 USD with no guarantee of a filly . We did purchase a filly ( Chin-Chin X Cantus / Jalisco B ) for definitely over 10,000 and I was happy to get her . I had not shipped since the late 90's when it was 3,000.00 to our barn . This year it was almost 8,000.00. So no matter where you go you will have to pay for quality. It is one of the realisms of life " You get what you pay for "
Whoever said that it costs just as much to feed and train and care for an inexpensive horse as it does an expensive one is right. And the way I look at it is I am just too darned old to not breed the best horses I possibly can. For me that means breeding horses that will be able to perform at the highest level and yet be suitable also for an amateur to ride.
Do our weanlings and yearlings sell for over 10,000.00 ?? Yes ! Who are those buyers ?? Other breeders !! I breed outside stallions trying to broaden our mare base ,but those darn male swimmers from frozen always win out so I frequently have colts that are stallion prospects .
We have several mares that always produce fabulous jumpers and their foals sell considerably over 10,000 . One of those mares produced a foal that is the highest ranked USA bred 5 year old in the Young Jumper Championships this year. As I have always been a believer in the jumping genetic factor and the bloodlines that produce jumping ability , I am really hoping to live long enough to have my beliefs come to fruition.

One other thing , I think that Pwynn has a pass on everything vitriolic she says as she is the BB's hero !!

pwynnnorman

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:39 PM

But can "you" RIDE that "top" dressage horse? Would you WANT to ride it? When you buy the weanling (not "you" per se here--nowhere here am I talking about "you" personally, OK?), are you really, truly planning to ride to "to the top"? If not, why are you buying it? Do you KNOW what makes a "top" dressage horse? Pedigree helps with the physical stuff, but there's a mental component and a nurture component and can you control that so it ends up suitable for YOU? Indeed, will you want to ride your weanling once he's six and showing that, yup, he's just like his Dad in all the ways that made his Dad and/or siblings "top" dressage horses IN EUROPE (where probably ten-times more amateurs spend time on the longe line without stirrups). This is the reasoning I question and I hope a lot of folks who fall in love with a cute, popularly bred weanling think about too as they shake their heads and trot over to the consignment stable and buy a nice 12-year-old schoolmaster.

[And, Allyn, puleeze! I've been a bitch on these boards for a long time--I sure hope my recent good luck doesn't give me any kind of a pass. For one thing, that'd be pretty boring...]

Silver Bells

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:46 PM

But can "you" RIDE that "top" dressage horse? Would you WANT to ride it? When you buy the weanling (not "you" per se here--nowhere here am I talking about "you" personally, OK?), are you really, truly planning to ride to "to the top"?

You go girl... but let's not forget the hunters. :D

Personally, I am in this to WIN... period the end! I will watch someone ride it to the top, it will win at the top, and I may get on every now and then when the mood strikes. Of course, there have to be optimum conditions.

If it's not the winner for me... maybe it can be the winner for someone else. :cool:

vineyridge

Aug. 2, 2007, 09:50 PM

BUT

If the dollar has tanked against the rest of the world's currencies, and it has, and if American breeders are offering to sell at 10 or 15k what would sell in Europe for 100K euros and the foals really are that good,

WHY aren't the Europeans and the Brits and the Irish, etc. over here buying the wonderful and Cheap productions of American breeders?

Well, one reason is the lack of data, which I won't go into, but if both mare and stallion are imported WBs who were inspected over there, that really shouldn't be such a huge obstacle, should it?

I agree with Pwynn, again, that if you're going to breed, you have to breed for the American market that actually exists, instead of a hypothetical market that is composed of the elite of the elite.

MagicRoseFarm

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:14 PM

[And, Allyn, puleeze! I've been a bitch on these boards for a long time--I sure hope my recent good luck doesn't give me any kind of a pass. For one thing, that'd be pretty boring...]

Pwynn, I know this was directed at Allyn, but I am eavesdropping and I have to say.. I hope you keep right on being a bitch. If you stopped it WOULD be boring and, I agree with you on many many topics, but do not have the "eloquence" to express those ideas as well, or as educationally.. you go gurl!

Hillside H Ranch

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:15 PM

Hey, on a lighter note it looks like I'm off the hook! I'm not from "the coasts", Pennsylvania, Virginia or California and my breeding focus has changed to jumpers!

Seriously though, this is a very interesting and enlightening discussion and I find it heartening to see how many people have chimed in that they do buy weanlings and they do expect to pay a fair amount. I do consider 10k to be on the high end for a weanling, but I also really do believe that value and worth are such fluid concepts that it is hard to point to a foal and say "definitely worth 10k or definitely not worth 10k". Because lets face it, a horse is worth what someone will pay for it and my cup of tea isn't neccessarily your cup of tea.

carolprudm

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:22 PM

WHY aren't the Europeans and the Brits and the Irish, etc. over here buying the wonderful and Cheap productions of American breeders?

Two top Irish stallions were sold back home, the Connemara Gunsmoke and the RID Mountain Pearl

Oakstable

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:43 PM

Edgar has sold foals back to Germany.

A few others have as well.

They are not low end foals and people shopping for a bargain, but looking for a bloodline that doesn't exist over there. I am sure they paid a fair price to get it, but selling to Europe is an honor as well.

Pronzini

Aug. 2, 2007, 10:58 PM

And as far as the weanling market goes in TB's. Who said the only place weanlings were popular was Japan. Total load of crap. Ever here of pinhooking? Well if they didn't have weanling sales their wouldn't be any pinhooking. Selling weanlings is big business and you will often see weanlings selling for more than they do in their yearling year.

Who's the stallion whose weanling averages are higher than his yearling averages? And if weanling averages are universally lower than yearling averages (and they are except under individual circumstances where the horse gets sick or hurt or whatever) why wouldn't the smart breeder hold onto their stock for another 7-10 months and reap that profit themselves? (which in the case of a stallion like Distorted Humor averaged a difference of $150,000 between his weanlings and his yearlings--some sold only 9 months later)

I know TBs so I'll keep this in that realm but I suspect it is analogous to every kind of horse. The rule of thumb is the further a horse is away from the races (or whatever) the greater the cost and risk on the buyer and the less the horse is worth all things being equal. In the TB world where the yearling auction is still king, when a person sells a weanling for other than business or financial reasons, what they are telling me is that they don't even think they will get as much as 10 months board more than the weanling price as a yearling and holding onto the horse is not worth their risk. Needless to say, that's usually not a position of strength and the prices generally reflect it. After all, I'm not trying to sell my weanling just so some pinhooker can make a score later on. I'm selling my weanling because I either have to or want to (for whatever reason.) The pinhookers are gambling that I am wrong. (and it's easy to be wrong with horses that age, more so even than yearling to juvenile.)

Of course, there's always the possibility that the above is all a total load of crap ;) That's what I love about the horse world. No one has a strong opinion :)

fish

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:05 PM

I met a woman at Upperville the bulk of whose business has been selling Contango weanlings to Holland.

chisamba

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:07 PM

I purchased my imported mare a several years ago, as a mature horse. She was very talented, had good gaits, and a nice conformation. I had just lost my horse to EPM, and wanted something ready to continue with, rather then starting over. My mare had several interesting quirks . She put a girl in hospital, kicking her in the face ( before I even got her). She would jump out of her stall. She would kick out violently any time she was asked to canter. She was so on the forehand that one day while cantering her, she was leaning on my hands, so i released the reins, and she fell onto her knees. She had an interesting air above the ground where she would rear and then proceed to buck without touching her front feet on the ground. It has taken me years, and finally she is quirk free, light, can collect, and living up to her talent, but she is eighteen, and now we are working through age related issues.

I "saved" a PMU weanling. It was my original intention to save her, start her, and find her a good home. I chose her from a photo, had never seen her in person, or seen her move. I paid for $1.25 a pound and shipping. She had never been touched, except to be herded into stock pens by ATV, an auction sticker stuck on her head, and blood drawn for neg coggins, etc. She arrived with feet curling up like turkish slippers, and pneumonia.

I am keeping her. It turns out she has nice gaits, and is light on her feet. The main advantage? No quirks. No bad habits to overcome. Being able to start her correctly, from the beginning. She got 80 at her first show.

I am not recommending the adoption route, except for the sake of kindness, I am just saying that if you have your own place, bringing a young horse along yourself can be very very rewarding.

Donella

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:09 PM

But can "you" RIDE that "top" dressage horse? Would you WANT to ride it? When you buy the weanling (not "you" per se here--nowhere here am I talking about "you" personally, OK?), are you really, truly planning to ride to "to the top"?

I don't know if this is directed towards me, but I would like to know that the horse will take me as far as I would like to or can go. If it doesn't turn out that way than that is too bad, but for someone who is comfortable riding a more sensitive, larger moving horse who also has experience starting youngsters, a super baby is an affordable way to purchase a future competative dressage horse.

But then again, if you aren't comfortable riding horses with larger gaits and your goals don't revolve around anything higher than say second level, then why on earth would you not save your money and buy something that was not bred with the competative arena as it's primary purpose??? I am assuming anyone who is looking at spending 10 or 15 k on a fancy moving, bred to the hilt wb would be someone who is interested in and serious about being competative.

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:31 PM

I really do think the "middle market" for warmblood foals IS the $10,000. weanling. I say this because of WHO I sell my $5000 to 6000 foals to. I sell them to college kids. I sell them to people who have been competing on TBs, and Qh/Arab crosses. I sell them to people that can afford to do local shows 4 or 5 times a year, and maybe a Recognized show once a year. I sell them to people that can't afford to board at an Indoor. I sell them to people that can pay for those $25 to $40 lessons, but they do 2 or 3 per month, because weekly is just too much for their budget. I sell them to people "reaching" for their first warmblood.

If THOSE people can afford to pay 5 to 6 thousand for a weanling, and DO, surely there are lots of people that have a more disposable income, spend more on their hobby, think nothing of spending $300. for a weekend clinic, or a $2500 saddle, that can and do buy those $10,000. ones.

MagicRoseFarm

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:31 PM

I am sure they paid a fair price to get it, but selling to Europe is an honor as well.

I honestly feel we are producing prospects that SHOULD be included in the international market ,and that US breeders should be looked upon more equally in that market than we currently are.... we still have many of the "growing pains" outlined by others, but our offspring DESERVE equal opportunity.

spacely

Aug. 2, 2007, 11:45 PM

XXOO :winkgrin:

Seriously, buying a weanling is risky... but it is also rewarding in so many ways. It's not the purchase price so much... it's the up keep. :eek:

XXOO back at you.:winkgrin:

I agree. Raising them from the ground up is not the cheapest way to go, but it IS the most rewarding IMHO. :yes:

Equilibrium

Aug. 3, 2007, 01:08 AM

Who's the stallion whose weanling averages are higher than his yearling averages? And if weanling averages are universally lower than yearling averages (and they are except under individual circumstances where the horse gets sick or hurt or whatever) why wouldn't the smart breeder hold onto their stock for another 7-10 months and reap that profit themselves? (which in the case of a stallion like Distorted Humor averaged a difference of $150,000 between his weanlings and his yearlings--some sold only 9 months later)

I know TBs so I'll keep this in that realm but I suspect it is analogous to every kind of horse. The rule of thumb is the further a horse is away from the races (or whatever) the greater the cost and risk on the buyer and the less the horse is worth all things being equal. In the TB world where the yearling auction is still king, when a person sells a weanling for other than business or financial reasons, what they are telling me is that they don't even think they will get as much as 10 months board more than the weanling price as a yearling and holding onto the horse is not worth their risk. Needless to say, that's usually not a position of strength and the prices generally reflect it. After all, I'm not trying to sell my weanling just so some pinhooker can make a score later on. I'm selling my weanling because I either have to or want to (for whatever reason.) The pinhookers are gambling that I am wrong. (and it's easy to be wrong with horses that age, more so even than yearling to juvenile.)

Of course, there's always the possibility that the above is all a total load of crap ;) That's what I love about the horse world. No one has a strong opinion :)

It's not a total load of crap, but actually, I'm in the TB business by nature. Breaking, breeding, and buying for clients. Over here I see many people who sell as foals as foals. Some people like to wait, but you will see many weanlings for sale. Don't know why but they do. Selling as a yearling means getting into 4 select sales. If you fail to get into these sales you are highly unlikely to make any profit. We like to gamble on a few weanlings but mostly buy yearlings. Are foals are sold privately and are managed by us thus giving the horse his/her best chance to win a race and building a page on our young mares. But weanlings are a big business over here. Everyone wants to be first to get the new hot sires for the yearling year and hopefully make a profit. And also you are looking at a few people that don't want the expenses and the hassle of prepping for a yearling sale. Judging by the state some of the weanlings come to the sale in, I can see not too much effort is put in.

Loads of diffrent opinions! It makes the world go round!
Terri

Silver Bells

Aug. 3, 2007, 08:25 AM

I honestly feel we are producing prospects that SHOULD be included in the international market ,and that US breeders should be looked upon more equally in that market than we currently are.... we still have many of the "growing pains" outlined by others, but our offspring DESERVE equal opportunity.

This is so true, but I doubt most Europeans will consider North American bred horses noteworthy enough to buy them, let alone give them equal opportunity or equal billing! :uhoh:

DLee

Aug. 3, 2007, 08:34 AM

After reading the ENTIRE thread (go me!), I wanted to just say without taking any side...
If you CAN sell a weanling for 10k, why WOULDN'T you? I look at it kind of like real estate, back when the market was crazy in Arizona, and people were bidding on houses OVER the listing price just to get them, who isn't going to take that money and run? Even if you know your house really appraised for 20k less? If you can sell a weanling for 10k, it is because someone is PAYING 10k for it.

My own personsal outlook is, I want a nice horse with a good mind. I have consistantly retrained OTTB's, I'm now mid forties, and just don't want to deal with that any more (still a huge TB fan, just tired of racing baggage). I know I am not making it to the top of anything, even though I am a good rider and trainer. I will not pay 10k, because I see plenty of horses nice enough FOR ME at lower prices. I do not care about bloodlines. And so, so much has to do with training and riding, I feel I can make up for how much less I paid, in my training and riding (at the levels I compete at, anyway). That is how I have done so well with horses I have never paid over $1800 for. But like I said, I don't do the 'big time', and I don't do hunters. :)

I am dabbling in breeding my own now, as I have a place to do it. Expecting a nice TB baby next year, and with any luck, an RIDSH.

Probably there are people out there that think my art is not worth what I sell it for, and that's okay. It is selling, so I'm not lowering my prices. ;)

This has been a very informative conversation and fun to read. :yes: Diana

Go Teddy Go!

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 3, 2007, 08:41 AM

Silver Bells

Aug. 3, 2007, 08:54 AM

europa

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:01 AM

I think alot has to do with the stigma that "WE" as Americans buy in to. We think the Germans make the best cars and raise the nicest horses. While I believe this to have been true in the past I am not so sure now about the horses. I am a small breeder but I am laying the foundation. I think alot of breeders/riders just don't have the focus to produce the outcome that the breeding programs in europe do.

If you have been to some of the inspections here in the US lately you will see that the caliber here is as good as there. WE ARE CATCHING UP........just look at some of the top breeders here and it is clear. Even the judges at the Oldenburg inspection that I go to commented on the horses here being as good as the ones in Europe and I would hope that he knows what he is talking about. Alot has to do with getting our horses into the hands of riders who will excel in the international arena and bring our horses into prominence.

Remember most of ours are from the same breeding lines/stock.

camohn

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:02 AM

Okay - here is an honest question, seriously. If US bred horses are so good then why are we still struggling to catch up with the Europeans? Our performance in top Int'l Grand Prixs is respectable, but we are not good enough to win. Debbie and Steffan come in 3rd in the Olympics and World Cup respectively and we all cheer with tears in our eyes about how good US dressage has become. This is good, but by no means do the Europeans IMHO feel threatened by us. Personally, I think its because of their top-notch breeding practices: Their quality control, use of proven dam lines, number of foals, dedicated/knowledgeable breeders, and young horse trainers is so much better than us. 25 years ago, I only saw 1 WB growing up - it was mostly TBs, QHs, Arabs, and Morgans. 10 years later, breeders caught on and starting importing and breeding seriously. The Europeans have been breeding WBs since the Renaissance. So, why do US breeders think they are "on par" or even better than Europe?

The top quality horses here didn't used to be on par with what Europe had. But I think that has largely changed. The best foals born here ARE now about as good as the ones in Europe. 2 things have yet to change. 1) is PERCEPTION. It is going to take longer to change attitudes than it is the horses! and 2) the young horse training. It still is difficult on the whole to find good folks that start young horses affordably. The one I do know of is a thousand dollars a month. That adds up very quickly!!! In only 3 mos will add 3K to the price of the young horse. I have started most of my youngsters myself as usually it needs to be done during the summer. I do not work when the kids are off school for summer. So...I have time and no money! I won't say I love the risk of getting chukked and my horses come along slower than if they went to a pro since the older I get the harder the ground gets and the less risks I am willing to take (we walk really nicely before we trot etc) .......but maybe that's really not so bad for the horse in the end. At least I know they are not messed up from being pushed too quickly (grin!).

Marydell

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:03 AM

I'll try to answer the last questions as they are very good ones.

First( AND FLAME SUIT ON FOR THIS) The answer people like Debbie and Stephan and George as well as many others can't win in international competiton but DO place very high is---POLITICS!!
It is not that they aren't giving winning performances, they are. That is why they do place so high. It's that the judging panels are international and at best we have 1 member of the jury. After being one of the "hospitality" guides for FEI officials at the 96 Olympics and keeping eyes and ears open, I know that it will be a very long time before an American can win the International events.

The only American to actually win at these events was Lisa Wilcox. But the key to her sucess was living in Germany and competing in International German based events for years. Our national riders can't all afford to do that.

Your second questions is also a simple answer- but has been discused here at nauseum.
We lack in the USA, young horse raisers, trainers and riders. Most of the very best young horses are being bought by the amateur lady who might get the horse to fourth level or PSG at best. They also lack the time, money and perhaps talent, to take those very well bred and talented horses further.

The riders at the top do not( in general) have the resources(space, time) to take and develop a very young prospect. At the most, a breeder might be able to get one of those top riders to take on a FEI talented four year old.
But that entails raising that weanling for five years! What most people don't understand, that with very few exceptions, breeders are less financialy able to raise what they produce. On our farm alone, we have anywhere form 20 to 30 horses on 33 acres. It gets very crowded and expensive to raise these horses. I can't afford that at all. I pray the weanlings sell, but have no mental difficulty with raising a few to riding age as I know that I can and will get between $25,000 to $40,000 for them at that time. Fortunately for me, I almost never have anything left after age 3. I do sell about 50% of my weanlings and 50% of my yearlings so by the time they are 2 I might have one or two left feom the birth year.

If you can get a copy of the most recent English translation of the "Hannoveranner", there is a great article about Isabel Werth and how she goes out and shops for Hanoverians from breeders and at Young Horse actions for all her Grand Prix prospects. SO she can start them in her way right from the beginning.

By the way, I just had my first international sale this year. The trainer of the buyer wants a full sibling as soons as one becomes available for herself.

Maryanna Haymon
www.marydellfarm.com

RiverOaksFarm

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:05 AM

Raising them from the ground up is not the cheapest way to go, but it IS the most rewarding IMHO.

This sort of confuses me, the thoughts expressed about raising them not being the cheapest way to go. If the buyer has their own place (as I do, and some other weanling buyers who've responded), then it would cost "me" about the same to raise one as it would cost the breeder, right? So, wouldn't the breeder be raising the price accordingly as the horse got older, to take into account the extra expense of raising it an extra couple of years? Meaning, a two or three year old would cost more to buy than a weanling? Unless the breeder were in an area where they could raise foals dirt cheap, or unless the young horse buyer were in an area where they had to pay thru the nose to keep a horse, shouldn't the expense for the breeder be about the same as the expense for the weanling buyer? Meaning, the amount I'd have invested in a weanling by the time it turned 3 yrs would be around the same amount a breeder would have invested in it, and I'm sure the breeder's sale price as a 3 yr old would have been raised accordingly to reflect that extra investment? Except by buying it as a weanling, I would have gotten to do everything "my way" thru the years.

Anyhow, just another opinion to add to a really long thread! :)

okggo

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:12 AM

This sort of confuses me, the thoughts expressed about raising them not being the cheapest way to go. If the buyer has their own place (as I do, and some other weanling buyers who've responded), then it would cost "me" about the same to raise one as it would cost the breeder, right? So, wouldn't the breeder be raising the price accordingly as the horse got older, to take into account the extra expense of raising it an extra couple of years? Meaning, a two or three year old would cost more to buy than a weanling? Unless the breeder were in an area where they could raise foals dirt cheap, or unless the young horse buyer were in an area where they had to pay thru the nose to keep a horse, shouldn't the expense for the breeder be about the same as the expense for the weanling buyer? Meaning, the amount I'd have invested in a weanling by the time it turned 3 yrs would be around the same amount a breeder would have invested in it, and I'm sure the breeder's sale price as a 3 yr old would have been raised accordingly to reflect that extra investment? Except by buying it as a weanling, I would have gotten to do everything "my way" thru the years.

Anyhow, just another opinion to add to a really long thread! :)

But look at the flip side of that, too....when that weanling doesnt' sell at 10k and becomes a yearling for sale at 10k I've seen a lot drop the price b/c 1) It didn't sell at the higher price and 2) yearlings tend to be so gangly. Similarly if that foal STILL hasn't sold by 2 years old or 3 years old, dropping the price makes more sense then increasing it. If it wasn't worth 10k as a weanling, why would it be worth 15k as a 2 y/o just b/c of "raising it" costs. I can see a legitimate increase in cost based only on show/inspection scores or professional training (starting it under saddle, etc.).

Case and point a breeder friend of mine who has sold almost none of their stock (priced 10-12k) and now have way more horses then zoning allowed, are still breeding all their mares, and now have yearlings/2 year olds by WB stallions out of impored mares for sale for 5k obo.

Sakura Hill Farm

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:36 AM

Marydell's comments reminded me of the figure skating world. They made monumental changes there to minimize the opportunity for national bias and "results-fixing." While I don't think that there is the same degree of collusion in the dressage world, the room for national or euro-centric bias is huge. Any chance of the judging system being revised to prevent this from occurring? (I am from the jumper ring where this does not happen.)

Michele
www.SakuraHillFarm.com

Rubs Not Pats

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:39 AM

I gave up reading after page 2 but I'll go back when I have some free time.

10K for a weanling is not a lot depending on the circumstance. My stud fee alone was 4K, my vet bills were over 3K, forget feeding the mare, shoing the mare, fly spraying the mare, paying my helper to clean up after the mare, paying the guy to haul off the road apples left by said mare, bedding the mare, it goes on and on. Let's not forget the foal checks, vaccinations, and handling of said foal. Now when this baby is born, it is related to some very successful horses (on the dam's side) as well as the fathers side. Assuming it is correct and has no major faults, it will not be a 10K baby. How could it be?

Now if my mare was free, I ownes the stud or bred to a stallion in the $1500 range, the mare caught right away, My situation may be a little different.

I think the bottom line is it just depends.

ponygirl

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:42 AM

GDQ-

Some breeders are very much on par with European breeding. These are breeders who have purchased very, very, good fillies and/or mares with proven mother lines, understand their breed inside and out, and put the best stallion for their mare, to their mare. There are many mediocre foals in Europe which I think some folks fail to remember at times.
There are foals born every year here in the US that are of high quality. They sell well and should.

A side of this coin that has not been mentioned (I don't think) is the fact that we have breeds that the Europeans pay a lot of money to buy and export. Quarterhorses, Tennesee Walkers, Apps and, believe it or not, gaited mules are what are being sold to Europe for very good money.

For what it's worth, my trainer is an International Grand Prix rider now living here in the states. He has ridden many famous horses with famous bloodlines. He has said that there are many quality horses here from our breeding farms so is looking in the states for a young stallion.

Breeders have become very educated, have upgraded their breeding stock/mare base and do this on a continual basis. Strides are being made in the right direction and I forsee it will continue. Would I pay 10K for a weanling? Yes, I would if I was a buyer and found something I wanted as I have the means to raise it. I have a foal on the ground right now I'd price a bit higher than that if she was for sale, which she's not. Why? Her dam line is proven at International jumping, proven at producing grand prix jumpers and is by an International jumper. She's very correct in her foundation and she has a particular blood line in her that is not normally seen up close in the US and is sought after in Europe.

Silver Bells

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:59 AM

It's all a crapshoot. Good bloodlines do not guarantee talent. I can show you FULL siblings that are as different as night and day. :eek:

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 3, 2007, 10:08 AM

I forgot to mention that some of the top top farms in the US (in my opinion) which are Iron Spring Farm, Leatherdale, etc. are selling weanlings for 15k-25k, I don't think I could truly buy a phenomenal baby for less than 20k in the US after looking around. 10k seems to be the average price for average quality. I just peruse websites and take mental notes of how much everything sells for. How many average, small-time breeders are taking advantage of the high prices set at other farms to increase the value of their foals just because the lineage may be similar? I really honestly don't think half the babies I see are worth the price tag.

And from the buyer's perspective - if I saw a decent baby priced at 10k on the website, but the breeder would be willing to sell at 7k, I probably would pass it up because I don't know the breeder is willing to negotiate. If you are going to except 7k then advertise 7k or write some disclaimer like "price negotiable to good home" or something. Some breeders do, others don't, but I the buyer might pass on your foals. I guess the issue is how does one define quality? Bloodlines alone doesn't cut it. Conformation? Who sets the standard? I prefer short backs, what if the baby has a long back - will that drop the price? Color? Several people here called it "vanity" but I would think color and chrome makes a difference in price. Does it?

HeyYouNags

Aug. 3, 2007, 10:23 AM

But can "you" RIDE that "top" dressage horse? Would you WANT to ride it?

Why do so many posters assume that "top" dressage horses aren't rideable? Rideability has been a big focus with the WB breed associations. Top, like Anky's horses top, are not amateur horses. But top, as in, a horse that could reasonably be expected to take an ammie to 4th or PSG, yes, I would expect to find a horse that I could ride. And honestly, I think my grossly overpriced yearling could do that. She's got good rideability on both sides of her pedigree, and her disposition suggests she will be. Talent and ability don't automatically mean explosive and difficult.

Do I think she'll be an Olympic level mount? Umm, no. But that's a rarefied group, so I can live with her lack of achievement.

And why are people who want to progress and are willing to buy pricier horses called "vanity" buyers? A rideable horse that was bred for its job is likely to be easier to progress with than, say, a PMU horse or OTTB.

Pwynn, what do you think the "vanity" buyers should be purchasing, ie, breeds, and what should they pay? :confused:

How many average, small-time breeders are taking advantage of the high prices set at other farms to increase the value of their foals just because the lineage may be similar?

Umm, a small farm can have the exact same bloodlines and quality as a Hilltop or ISF, especially since the small breeder may have purchased broodmares and/or semen from those farms. It's more likely that similar quality is priced a little less on the small farms without the name recognition. I know in my area there are smaller breeders who work closely with the big name farms and whose foals compete against and surpass the big names at inspections and breed shows. GDK, your posts lead me to believe you aren't an especially skilled assessor of foal quality.

Snarky note, echoing what some others here have said.... Given what you've posted, I'm relieved that you haven't approached me about my baby. You want sellers to list a price and say it's negotiable. Every price is negotiable, and if you don't even ask/offer, maybe it's because you realize that the seller really *can* get the listed price. :p

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 3, 2007, 10:35 AM

Why do so many posters assume that "top" dressage horses aren't rideable? Rideability has been a big focus with the WB breed associations.

Rideability - sensitive and very light to the aids - reactive

Top, like Anky's horses top, are not amateur horses.

Stallions get their rideability score to produce those top Anky horses. The approval system IS set up to produce those uber sensitive Anky horses. So what stallion is getting good scores to produce easy going and LESS reactive? Do they use different systems? Or do you really think that a horse bred for Anky that just does not get the talent will also suddenly become Amateur friendly.

She's got good rideability on both sides of her pedigree, and her disposition suggests she will be. Talent and ability don't automatically mean explosive and difficult.

Again, there is that pesky word "rideability". Sensitive and reactive horses DO become explosive and difficult when ridden by an amateur rider that does not have those perfect aids and perfect seat.

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 3, 2007, 10:41 AM

You want sellers to list a price and say it's negotiable. Every price is negotiable

Nope. I sell mine for the listed prices and not a penny less. I don't believe in jacking up the price to drop it later. My website also says that.

europa

Aug. 3, 2007, 10:52 AM

flame suit and bon bon in hand......I just want to address DairyQueen......ummmm....sorry but you have asked for this squabble. If you passed up the RIGHT foal just because the breeders takes a lower price then who is the loser? HELLO

METHINKS you are on the WRONG board. I apologize for being snarky back.....I am usually quite nice but a few of your comments are not very well taken by the nice breeder crowd that normally inhabit this domain.

Tiki

Aug. 3, 2007, 11:08 AM

Maybe the prices for the horses from the BIG NAME farms are the ones that are overpriced to pay for the fancy digs. :D:winkgrin:

Rideability does not necessarily mean hot and sensitive, just because Salinero is. I breed for rideability and temperament and 2 amateurs who have bought my horses (for good prices) said that training them consisted of putting on a saddle and bridle and getting on and riding them - without professional help - and these are very nice, very, very good moving horses.

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekDressageQueen http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/showthread.php?p=2601337#post2601337)
So you are going to try and sell them for 25k? I visited your site...the dam has Northern Dancer bloodlines....:lol:

The horse for sale on her site is a two year old - it was born in 2005.
[QUOTE] Sigh. :sigh: Yes, it's a 2yo, not a foal. Talk about reading for comprehension. And your ignorance is showing. Yes, the dam has Northern Dancer, but she also has Irish and French bloodlines. She also has Never Bend. These are all proven sporthorse bloodlines, the old Chef lines, AND Nasrullah has had more horses in the Olympics than any other line. But you wouldn't know any of that, would you? as you don't like TB's. I guess you'd never buy a WB foal that had Laurie's Crusador, or Furioso, or Prince Thatch, or lots of other TB's in their bloodlines. But wait, if it's a WB that you buy in Europe, you'd probably assume that it's a WB without TB, right?????

At any rate, a breeder basically has to put a price on everything. I could care less if he sells now because he is going to be an incredibly competitive horse in the 4 and 5 yo Young Horse Classes. In fact, for the current price, as good as he is, I hope someone doesn't call my bluff on his price!!! :D He also has Cantus, Come On and Grande in his lines and his sire has proven to be phenomenal in the show ring through Intermediare, on his way to GP.

HeyYouNags

Aug. 3, 2007, 11:11 AM

Okay, Fairview, then you and I have a different understanding of what rideability means. I assumed that there was a spectrum of sensitivity between explosive and dead, and that hot and explosive was not widely viewed as rideable. I guess when I look for stallions in the future I'll look for low rideability scores.

And when I said "every price is negotiable", I meant the prospective buyer can always ask. That doesn't mean the seller will budge. Most of the threads about buying on this board come to that conclusion. You may be one of the exceptions. And a negotiable price doesn't mean the seller comes down by 25%. They may come down by 5%, or by nothing. And the negotiability may vary depending on the buyer. Heck, the foal can be unavailable at any price to some would-be buyers.

Tiki

Aug. 3, 2007, 11:27 AM

Yes, sometimes negotiable comes down to I'll help with shipping, or maybe deliver the horse - depending on area. Depends a lot on the situation.

Hi Jump

Aug. 3, 2007, 11:38 AM

Justify $10,000 Hanoverian weanling?
Breeding a prospect out of a top imported Hanoverian mare and stallion, both who scored 9's for their jump, and achieving correct, athletic and beautiful quality foals, I do expect a fair dollar for my Hanoverian weanlings and both they and my Holsteiner weanlings start at this price point, which is very competitive with the price of importing a comparable foal .
It may very well be a case of getting what you are willing to pay for.

I won't even touch what it actually costs to produce quality stock because most breeders never analyze their full and true costs, and underestimate them. I think reading this forum for some length will bring to light exactly why a well bred, quality weanling can command a $10,000 price.

Synergy Sport Horses
Home to Cotopaxi and Raffaello
http://www.synergysporthorses.net

shakeytails

Aug. 3, 2007, 12:01 PM

It's all a crapshoot. Good bloodlines do not guarantee talent. I can show you FULL siblings that are as different as night and day. :eek:

Exactly.

When looking at any horse, of course I look at it's bloodlines, but the most important thing is the individual itself, especially if it's going to be a gelding. I couldn't care less what the stud fee is, how much it cost you to get the mare in foal, that you had outrageous vet bills on mama or baby, etc., etc. All I care about is whether or not that baby can do the job it was bred for, and do it well. I've seen many a baby by high priced stallions, ET babies, out of top show mares, or all of the above sell for $1000- 1500 because they just don't have what it takes to justify a high price tag.

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 3, 2007, 12:07 PM

Okay, Fairview, then you and I have a different understanding of what rideability means. I assumed that there was a spectrum of sensitivity between explosive and dead, and that hot and explosive was not widely viewed as rideable. I guess when I look for stallions in the future I'll look for low rideability scores.

There IS a spectrum between explosive and dead, but they ARE looking for a sensitive horse, and many amateurs can't ride a horse that WILL react to s slight shift in weight, or bump with a leg. Lookiing for low rideability scores won't work either, because that score will also take into account how cooperative the horse is. Temperament can go a long way to overcome sensitivity. Just remember what rideability means, and don't think it means an average Joe can ride it BECAUSE it has good "rideability" scores. It had a good rideability score for the TRAINING riders. Those guys are quite good. :winkgrin:

class

Aug. 3, 2007, 12:27 PM

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 3, 2007, 12:43 PM

some of the breeders act like they would never own a farm or a horse if it wasn't for their business so every cost even associated with their farm is part of their pricing. sorry, but i don't bill my boss for the amount of money i spend in gas to get to the office, or the professional attire that i have to wear while sitting at my desk. let's not forget the cost of my schooling, or the cost of my car, the cost of the cds that i want to listen to while sitting in my cube. all ridiculous. so don't tell me that you have to take in account the cost of feeding your horses or the amount of time it takes to muck their stalls. you would be paying that one way or the other whether you were breeding them or not! most breeders are pretty passionate about horses and would own horses and a farm whether they were selling them or not.

I bet if your salary did not cover at LEAST your gas, clothes, etc, you would NOT be going to work.

BREEDERS would NOT have the horses they do as a hobby. Yes, they may have one or two because they love horses. Feed, labor to clean the stalls, property maintenence is ALL part of the expenses. Breeders would have a LOT smaller property and barn if they were not breeding for profit. This is not a game. The people that ARE breeding as a hobby ARE the ones that make everyone believe that it is a crapshoot, because most don't know what they are doing. Breeding is VERY predictable. No you won't get clones, but for the qualities that we ARE breeding for, a GOOD breeder will get it right in almost every horse they breed. However, just like stock/bond investors, some will play a very safe hand, and others will gamble on the more agressive lines.

RiverOaksFarm

Aug. 3, 2007, 01:59 PM

But look at the flip side of that, too....when that weanling doesnt' sell at 10k and becomes a yearling for sale at 10k I've seen a lot drop the price b/c 1) It didn't sell at the higher price and 2) yearlings tend to be so gangly. Similarly if that foal STILL hasn't sold by 2 years old or 3 years old, dropping the price makes more sense then increasing it. If it wasn't worth 10k as a weanling, why would it be worth 15k as a 2 y/o just b/c of "raising it" costs. I can see a legitimate increase in cost based only on show/inspection scores or professional training (starting it under saddle, etc.).

Case and point a breeder friend of mine who has sold almost none of their stock (priced 10-12k) and now have way more horses then zoning allowed, are still breeding all their mares, and now have yearlings/2 year olds by WB stallions out of impored mares for sale for 5k obo.

You do make a fair point. And I've heard of people with different "strategies" for buying young horses -- such as "wait for winter when breeders don't want to feed so many mouths" and "wait until spring because breeders are short on room because they're expecting babies" and "shop the regions having floods/droughts/etc. because they need to unload horses" and so on and so on. And in these cases sometimes waiting will save you some money. Same thing I suppose, with finding a weanling you like and bookmarking the website and checking back daily for the next three years....<wink> But.... the risk you take with some of this strategizing, is that someone else may buy "your" baby out from under you, and sometimes the little bit of money you might have hoped to save will seem inconsequential when you have to look back and realize you missed out on the horse entirely because of it.

Some breeders may drop their prices from weanling price to 3 yr old price if it hasn't sold, but I'd think if that happened too often, that breeder would soon be out of business. In contrast, Marydell wrote "I pray the weanlings sell, but have no mental difficulty with raising a few to riding age as I know that I can and will get between $25,000 to $40,000 for them at that time." It made me curious what one of her weanlings would cost -- because I'm guessing not $25K-$40K? So if one of her weanlings were in the $10K range, but by 3 yrs. they're in the $25K-$40K range, then a buyer would have been better off to have bought the $10K weanling (with the disclaimer of assuming the buyer either has their own place or pays reasonable board.)

Most of all though, I want to know who has the yearlings and 2 year olds by warmblood stallions out of imported mares for $5K..... (Really, not kidding, because that sounds like a potential bargain, could you PM me if you don't want to post it?)

:)

PineTreeFarm

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:02 PM

I bet if your salary did not cover at LEAST your gas, clothes, etc, you would NOT be going to work.

BREEDERS would NOT have the horses they do as a hobby. Yes, they may have one or two because they love horses. Feed, labor to clean the stalls, property maintenence is ALL part of the expenses. Breeders would have a LOT smaller property and barn if they were not breeding for profit. This is not a game. The people that ARE breeding as a hobby ARE the ones that make everyone believe that it is a crapshoot, because most don't know what they are doing.

There are so many possible business models represented on this board that making a statement as to the cost of producing a weanling of good quality is not really possible as a general statement.

Some of the breeders are serious operations ( Hilltop, Iron Spring etc.) that breed and compete. Some stand several stallions as a business with no competition horses involved, just as serious a business but a different model. Some have a mare or two and board them out. Others have a job ( no way of knowing if the horse came first or the job, chicken and the egg ) and may be a hobby breeder. Some own their farms, some rent. The list of variables goes on and on.

Some stallion owners are trying to promote a young stallion and with that in mind will sell offspring for less just to get them out there. Some have established stallions that have a good track record of producing performance horses.

I've enjoyed listening to why I, as a buyer, need to spend $10,000 on a weanling. But I''m not drinking the cool aide. I'm a H/J person so I'm sure the dressage breeders will dismiss what I say.

So if I see three wealings that are comparable quality I'm going to select the less expensive one. Just saying I bought a $10,000 weanling because it sounds important just makes me a moron ( or somebody with way too much loose change ). I really don't care that the business plan you use requires you to charge a zillion dollars to break even and I may think more of the breeder that has a well thought out plan that produces young horses at a reasonable price. But I will pay more for quality so if the more expensive weanling were to meet my needs I'd go for it. But that's just me.

Some numbers:
Right now there are around 620 Amateur Owner hunters showing. These are the 3'6" horses. They cost a lot of money, that's a given. These folks most likely don't buy weanlings, they get their horses in Europe on the advice of their trainer. On the other hand, there are about 1680 Adult Amateurs showing. These are the 3' horses. They can get pricey too. The folks that I know who buy young horses are in the latter group. They have access to inexpensive pasture boarding, they have help bringing the young horse along but they can't lay out a huge amount of cash up front for a made horse or a weanling. And many won't pay $10,000 no matter what as they could buy 3 OTTB's for that price and be competive in the zones or at least in their local show assoc. Some show in IHF, some do IJF. Not the big winners but they have fun and they come back to buy more young horses.

So do you make more money selling to the mid range repeat buyer or do you hold out till you find the $10,000 buyer even if you may only sell one a year at that price?

Home Again Farm

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:16 PM

Man. :winkgrin: I have tried to sit on my hands and avoiding putting my own 2¢ into this, but I just can't.

To me a weanling is worth what it sells for. I have sold many weanlings and the average price for mine has been about $10K over the 12 years I have been breeding.

However, some sold for more than that and one was given away.

I have gotten to the point where I am just as happy to keep mine until they under saddle and sell them for a lot more than weanling prices. I am lucky to be in a position where I can keep them home until my very talented young horse trainer puts a super start on them. Of course that plan also carries the risk that something may happen along the way to make my plans fall apart. :sadsmile:

IMO, the best small breeders in this country are producing foals that rival both Europe and the bigger, higher proced farms that the OP mentioned. And they sell them for less than comparable foals from the formerly mentioned farms.

Most of mine have sold by word of mouth from happy owners to their friends. I have only advertised one or two anywhere other than my website. I know quite a few fellow Hano breeders who have done the same. My buyers tend to be amateurs who ride pretty well.

My goal is to breed horses that are suited to the good ammy or the pro. I breed for brains first, followed by conformation and movement (a supple back, ability to carry for future collection, fairly forward and sensitive when sensitized by the rider). None of mine have been too reactive for ammys with decent riding abilities.

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:18 PM

And many won't pay $10,000 no matter what as they could buy 3 OTTB's for that price and be competive in the zones or at least in their local show assoc.

With that in mind, why would anyone pay ANY money for a weanling? If you can get an OTTB for $2000 at riding age, we would have to PAY those riders to take the weanlings off our hands. After all, they will probably put more than $2000 into them getting them to the same age. I guess that is it then. We all just need to quit breeding any horses, because of the flood of OTTBs.

Reality is, that many people don't like all of the baggage, injuries, bad feet, etc to gamble on wasting several years of their life for each OTTB they TRY to see IF it will work out for them.

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:20 PM

GDK, your posts lead me to believe you aren't an especially skilled assessor of foal quality.

Snarky note, echoing what some others here have said.... Given what you've posted, I'm relieved that you haven't approached me about my baby. You want sellers to list a price and say it's negotiable. Every price is negotiable, and if you don't even ask/offer, maybe it's because you realize that the seller really *can* get the listed price. :p

As I mentioned in previous posts, I have never purchased a weanling before (but I have bred my own) so I am asking for information and seeking answers to my novice questions. Your response is "my foal assessment ability sucks" and you are "so thankful I haven't approached you to buy your weanling" tells me you have something to hide. If you can't justify the price then you are probably asking too much $ or over-assessing the quality. If you don't like buyers asking questions then you will need to look for an idiot to sell your so-called fabulous baby to.

If you (or anyone else) can't answer difficult questions or contribute thought-provoking answers (as several posters have already), then don't attack my credibility to make up for your lack of intelligence or business knowledge. I NEVER said that people MUST negotiate, what I was referring to are the posters who commented that list price MAY be one thing, but to a good/show home, top trainer, etc... that price MIGHT be negotiable. I think that information should be listed so I can make the best decision. I also find several breeders who don't often (monthly) update their website and this can irritate the buyer. I am not telling people what to do I am just making a suggestion. As a potential buyer, some of the breeders may be interested in what I think regardless of how stupid it might sound. Aren't YOU trying to sell horses? Then don't treat the buyer like crap.

Again, I thank those who have offered some helpful insight and I appreciate those comments.

okggo

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:23 PM

Riveroaks, I sent you the info. by PM.
Re the expensive 3 year olds/ 4 year olds, probably has a lot to do with training and market (not to mention proof of talent). I'd think the market would offer more $$ naturally for a horse under saddle that shows extreme talent and thus the price would be higher. But certainly do hear where you are coming from and know the situation certainly goes both ways.

HeyYouNags

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:38 PM

Your response is "my foal assessment ability sucks

you are probably asking too much $ or over-assessing the quality

tells me you have something to hide

your lack of intelligence or business knowledge

you will need to look for an idiot to sell your so-called fabulous baby to.

Aren't YOU trying to sell horses? Then don't treat the buyer like crap.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Tamara in TN

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:39 PM

Couple of comments--
The AQHA has a huge sale in Oklahoma in the fall, which used to be run by the Frying Pan Park people and might still be, and 100s of horses change hands. The people who run Professional Auction Company could probably work with some kind of WB breeders association to set up a comparable auction for unstarted WBs and that might come to be the Mecca for buyers as the Oklahoma auction is for AQHA folks.

.

they have tried it is/was called the Sporthorse Sale...

Tamara in TN

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:45 PM

[QUOTE=Tiki;2602343]Yes, it's a 2yo, not a foal. Talk about reading for comprehension. And your ignorance is showing. Yes, the dam has Northern Dancer, but she also has Irish and French bloodlines. She also has Never Bend. These are all proven sporthorse bloodlines, the old Chef lines, AND Nasrullah has had more horses in the Olympics than any other line. But you wouldn't know any of that, would you? as you don't like TB's. I guess you'd never buy a WB foal that had Laurie's Crusador, or Furioso, or Prince Thatch, or lots of other TB's in their bloodlines. But wait, if it's a WB that you buy in Europe, you'd probably assume that it's a WB without TB, right?????[QUOTE]

My mare is an ISH by Skyboy, who (from what I read and hear) was a top Irish TB producer of event horses in the UK. His daughters are highly sought after as broodmares. I had to wrestle mine away from David Broom 15 years ago - do you even know who that is?

My gelding is by Mystic Replica, who is by Babamist, another leading TB sire of event horses whose pedigree reads as the "who's who" of the TB world. I also considered breeding to Londonderry before retiring my mare, who is 23 now. I don't have anything against TB's and TB stallions are what I bred my ISH mare to. You don't really breed an ISH to a Hanoverian. I have seen it done, but the ISH crosses best with TBs. Then again, what do I know...I am just a bleeding idiot according to you.

It is just my preference that I will not purchase a Hano/TB cross unless it IS by improvement sires such as Prince Thatch, Londonderry, etc. and it must be a bit heavier in bone. Unfortunately, I have only come across a few of them and people aren't selling! Most knowledgeable breeders tell me to stay away from 1st generation crosses and look for TB blood in the 2nd and 3rd generation. I guess they are all idiots too. Either way, if you are going to try and sell me a foal, yearling, or 2 year old for 25k it better not be out of some off-track reject UNLESS THAT HORSE IS FREAKING AMAZING, but then again everyone thinks their babies are freaking amazing. I don't consider the American Racing Industry the 100-day test for mares.

But, you know what? If you can get 25k for foals then more power to you! I have no problem with that, but that doesn't mean I have to spend that kind of money just because you think I should.

Hillside H Ranch

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:50 PM

juliab

Aug. 3, 2007, 02:59 PM

"Either way, if you are going to try and sell me a foal, yearling, or 2 year old for 25k it better not be out of some off-track reject UNLESS THAT HORSE IS FREAKING AMAZING, but then again everyone thinks their babies are freaking amazing. I don't consider the American Racing Industry the 100-day test for mares.

But, you know what? If you can get 25k for foals then more power to you! I have no problem with that, but that doesn't mean I have to spend that kind of money just because you think I should."

You can buy whatever foals you want from whoever you want for what amount of money you want, but lay off the disparaging remarks about OTTBs. They just show your ignorance.

pwynnnorman

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:03 PM

Love the reasoning, PineTree. What I can't quite get is what the dressage reasoning is. I understand hunter reasoning--and even genuine jumper reasoning, which I think is far more like hunter reasoning than dressage reasoning, although some seem to lump them (D and J) together. I'm not deep into selling dressage horses, prospects or whatever, so I don't know if the difference is due to dressage being less trainer driven--or maybe due to the "DQ" syndrome, which creates a totally different beast (of a buyer), perhaps?

To you and I, looking down the road at getting our money out of what we buy (where "getting it back" is determined in the ring, not in the stall or pasture) forces us to see value differently, perhaps? I look at grainy video clips of a baby here and there, stood up poorly and then chased around a grassy pasture (with beautiful board fences, mind you!), moving as ordinary as can be--I see babies bouncing around with their tails in the air, their heads in the sky, in ways I know full well don't represent their real movement or carriage--and I flat out can't understand it. On the other hand, I also see wealth selling to wealth in an industry where money can take you (or your weanling as it grows up) a heck of along way.

And I still see MOST of the horses winning at the very top of their sports having NOT BEEN "BRED" TO DO SO (i.e. not having been considered a "top prospect," that is).

It's like Mercedes vs. Fords. Both are nice cars that'll take you safely where you want to go, and most cars end up going to the exactly the same places, whether they were bought for $5K or $50K...y'know what I mean? Oh, sure, one has a few more doohickies here and there, but how valuable are they, short of getting into a really baaad accident? Most are just frills and prestige (like white markings and famous parents or breeding farms), neither of which have anything to do with getting to the grocery store.

So it ain't really the CAR that makes the sale at all. It's the BUYER. (It's always the buyer--that's why production is one thing, and marketing is entirely another.)

Indeed, those of us who would love to see sale auctions arise that could be legitimate, effective ways to market quality (yeah, dream on, I know) are probably to a person the ones who cannot attract Mercedes buyers no matter what we have on the lot. Even when we DO produce Mercedes, we are not equipped to sell to Mercedes buyers. And that's why most people won't buy a $10K baby either. If they want a Mercedes, they'll look in the classifieds to find an affordable one, or if they recognize that history has shown over and over again that you don't need a Mercedes to go as far as you want to go, they'll trot around the block to a good ol' Ford or Volvo or Subaru dealership and find the perfect vehicle for less.

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:10 PM

GDQ:
So I feel that this has been an informative and enlightening topic, but as the OP I'm wondering if it has clarified things for you/answered some of your questions? Would you now consider buying here in the US or do you still feel that your heart is set on a European purchase?

Thanks Hillside, no my heart is not set to go to Europe. After reading from you nice people about the rise in importation costs, I will definitely look to buy in the US first. However, based on some of responses of late on the BB, I am not sure I will be treated very nicely if I start to ask questions. :)

Some of you have been great and I have been taking notes, those of you who give me "the shut-up and buy it" attitude are not even worth my time.

I know what I want, I know what I am looking for, and I hope to find that baby here in the US.

pwynnnorman

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:10 PM

Sheesh, this thread IS moving fast. Sorry for the now-irrelevant post!

Reality is, that many people don't like all of the baggage, injuries, bad feet, etc to gamble on wasting several years of their life for each OTTB they TRY to see IF it will work out for them.

But, Darlyn, how is that all that much different than raising a weanling, dear? Injuries? Bad farriers? Bad experiences? OCD? Colic? The fugglies? The first-time-freak-outs? We're ALWAYS bemoaining here what can and does befall our babies. The risk is not much different, especially if you have a good eye for an OTTB (and/or if you DON'T have an eye for a decent weanling, which we've also noted that so many buyers do not--have an eye for a horse, that is, not necessarily a weaner).

I think we argue from whatever our backgrounds are--and maybe we buy (or would buy) that way as well. If you can train, you aren't impressed by pedigree or mere potential. If you breed, you are put off by "baggage" and other unknowns.

Tiki

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:13 PM

Of course I know who David Broom is. When you (Ms Anonymous GDQ) bring back your absolutely fabulous $3000 weanling, for whom you will have paid about $15,000, PLEASE, please, pretty please post pictures so we can all see what we are doing wrong and what stellar quality we should be breeding for so we can all sell our foals for $3000. And I know at least that YOU won't call my bluff on one of my horses, so I won't stay up nights worrying about that.

GreekDressageQueen

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:16 PM

You can buy whatever foals you want from whoever you want for what amount of money you want, but lay off the disparaging remarks about OTTBs. They just show your ignorance.

Hey Juliab, did you know my first horse was an OTTB? And my second, and my third, and my fourth horse were all OTTBs. My seventh horse was an off track Arabian - best horse I have EVER owned and trained. I guess you are right, because I don't want my future high dollar baby to be out of an OTTB then I am ignorant. Of what? I am not quite sure...

pwynnnorman

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:26 PM

Aww, come on, ladies. I guess this thread is about done if we're gonna start throwing rotten tomatoes at each other. Ok. Someone else start another interesting thread topic, please? Just to get through these last few hours of the week?

camohn

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:27 PM

Well since this was the original question

Here is my question(s): why are weanlings so expensive? The average price out there is $8500-$14500. I found one for $15,000 that was a palomino and I can understand that (rare color = high demand = price), but there are so many average bred, nothing fancy babies going for 10 grand! I just don't see how any breeder can sell these babies for that much money.

And this is a later post

I forgot to mention that some of the top top farms in the US (in my opinion) which are Iron Spring Farm, Leatherdale, etc. are selling weanlings for 15k-25k, I don't think I could truly buy a phenomenal baby for less than 20k in the US after looking around. 10k seems to be the average price for average quality.

Part 2 pretty much answers the first question. Now 10K starts to look a lot better! (no, I am not being sarcastic here.) In many pages of posting pots o folks have explained why it costs so much for them to get the foal on the ground.

So......moving on to the other questions:

How many average, small-time breeders are taking advantage of the high prices set at other farms to increase the value of their foals just because the lineage may be similar? I really honestly don't think half the babies I see are worth the price tag. And from the buyer's perspective - if I saw a decent baby priced at 10k on the website, but the breeder would be willing to sell at 7k, I probably would pass it up because I don't know the breeder is willing to negotiate. If you are going to except 7k then advertise 7k or write some disclaimer like "price negotiable to good home" or something. Some breeders do, others don't, but I the buyer might pass on your foals.

If they have the same bloodlines there is no reason the small time breeder SHOULD price their horse less than The Big Farms. It is not a lesser quality horse. Someone that can only afford a couple nice mares is not breeding a lesser horse than someone that has lots of them. Often the amount of handling and attention the foal gets at the small farm is actually more. And many times the same quality foal IS priced less than the Big Farm because the owner/breeder/seller is also the secretary, pooper scooper, feeder and Young Horse Trainer. In other words, they do not have big facilites and staff to pay for.
On the price being negotiable: you don't go to a car dealership and assume that because the pricetag is not marked "25K OBO" then you can not negotiate on the sticker price. Generally unless the price is marked "FIRM" then you can assume that it is negotiable. When you start to see "OBO" or "asking" then that pretty much whaps you on the head that it is negotiable.
FWIW at one point I tried marking my horse X down below what it cost to produce her because I really needed to sell for personal reasons. I can't tell you how many inquiries I got that went something like this: "If the horse is as nice as it looks on pics/pedigree then why is it so cheap? What is wrong with it that you are not disclosing?". I would email back "Yes the horse IS that nice for price X. She is priced below market value due to X personal circumstances". And still those folks would not believe me...still thought I was "hiding something wrong with the horse". So....I gave up and doubled the price. Horse sold the following month!! I found if you have a nice horse you can't actually price it too low or else folks looking at that time of horse don't even have you in their DreamHorse or Equine.com search parameters.

juliab

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:28 PM

"Hey Juliab, did you know my first horse was an OTTB? And my second, and my third, and my fourth horse were all OTTBs. My seventh horse was an off track Arabian - best horse I have EVER owned and trained."

So why do you think that a WB would be so much better? It is all marketing. TBs are plentiful and cheap and WBs are not, so you don't want to pay as much for a "reject" or offspring out of a "reject". But if you avoid horses because they have an OTTB up close, you could be missing out on some really wonderful horses. There is NOTHING wrong with Northern Dancer lines, btw. That is just another myth put out by people wanting to protect the dollar value of their imported horses.

camohn

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:32 PM

camohn

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:42 PM

It's all a crapshoot. Good bloodlines do not guarantee talent. I can show you FULL siblings that are as different as night and day. :eek:

Addressing things as I read along:
Nope, never a guarantee. But some things are not a TOTAL crapshoot. All in all in the years I have been breeding for the old bell curve theory (since 1999) I have gotten 1 "dud" foal that I truly didn't like (got all the worst traits of both parents....except as it turns out the little bugger can jump like hell so he has found his way to his "place" in the world anyway....) 3 that were fabulous and the rest that fell in the middle of "pretty nice but not exceptional". I sold 2 of the 3 exceptional ones. 1 filly I kept for myself, 1 hubby said I had to sell as I was already keeping her sister and I can't collect em all/one of them must go/she was bred to be sold, and the third was an intact colt. He was for sale as he was too nice to gled though I really didn't want two stallions here. He did sell as a 2 YO and is indeed still intact and showing well. And after a while you do see what mares produce and cull accordingly. One mare threw all types/no consistency. She had 3 foals: one was The Dud, one was Pretty Nice and one was The Stud Colt. She was culled. I have another mare that is VERY consistent. Every foal looks just like the stallion with her head. She is an OK looking mare......but if she keeps producing mini me of the stallions then she has produced some fab looking foals.

sixpoundfarm

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:42 PM

A brief look at the foals in the upcoming Elite Hanoverian auction will show that there is plenty of TB used in the hanoverian breed. Maybe your dream foal is in there, but I doubt you'll get it for ONLY 10k.
http://servlet.vit.de/pfauktion/pfliste/liste?id=1870

Here's a pretty nice example. Notice the dam is half TB, with the TB on the bottom
http://servlet.vit.de/pfauktion/pfliste/seite?tierid=37344&id=1870

And another, with a nice look at the mare in the video clip
http://servlet.vit.de/pfauktion/pfliste/seite?tierid=37290&id=1870

Another
http://servlet.vit.de/pfauktion/pfliste/seite?tierid=37155&id=1870

http://servlet.vit.de/pfauktion/pfliste/seite?tierid=37127&id=1870

Also, if you want the TB in the 2nd or 3rd generation, how do you plan to get it there without the (according to the OP sub par) 1st?

As someone that has taken time to find some quality TB mares, present them for inspection and approvals, and see them produce nice offspring, I think your comments about all TB mares being rejects is quite rude and ignorant. There are many very nice mares out there, owned by people that do care about their produce and take a lot of time and care to choose what they feel are good matches for these mares. Are they all 10K foals? (to relate back to the topic) Probably not, but there will definately be some that are well worth that amount or more. You have to consider the individual, not the generalization.

Tiki

Aug. 3, 2007, 03:59 PM

Heavens sixpoundfarm, you've just shot big holes in that old maxim that Europeans ALWAYS have the blood on top, NEVER on the bottom. Shame on you. ;);) Nice foals, BTW. And, shudder, in the ELITE auction, yet.

alexandra

Aug. 3, 2007, 04:23 PM

(...)
Someone said $30,000 and up. I know of one breeder/foal buyer in Europe who says he buys 50-60 foals a year for $50,000 - $60,000 in Europe. We could NEVER get those kinds of prices.

Talking about Warmblood sporthorses here - right ?!
Who's that ???? Never heard of that before. The professional foal buyers that shop in those kind of numbers (50 - 60 foals) buy mostly between say 6 - 20k. And I know of only two people that I suspect buying in that sort of number in Germany.
They might buy one or the other for more but mostly not more. Why ? Bcause they might turn out not as desired and if already the shopping price is more than 20 than they can only sell at high loss when they are three !

Sometimes the fairy tales you hear / read about what we do in Europe are just interesting for me.
Foals here seem to be cheaper becuse for the average slightly above above average decent foal the market over here just does not pay more. No matter how much we have into them, we just do not get more. And horse breeding used to be for most people a hobby apart from their cows, grain or whatever they produced on the farms. Mostly horse business was just covering cost throgh a mixed calculation: a few well paid for horses. A lot of normal paid for ones and also not very few that are/were sold at a loss. the more and more breeders are not farmers anymore over here the more expansive the foals seem to become if you look into adds. but I wonder if these are really selling for what they are offered. I came across a number ost recently that made me swallow as I did not have any idea that it would be in that kind of number range. The Fn overlooking all breeding aswell published the following numbers for 2006 from the registries:
FN Jahresbericht 2006
3.697 Sporthorse breeding stallions were listed and 71.363 sporthorse broodmares. Alltogether 31.096 sporthorse foals (born in 2006) were registered. In addition 3.780 Pony stallions,plus 28.735 Pony broodmares plus 11.282 pony foals.

Do you understand the prices now ???
How many WB foals in the us with papers of a recognized Wb-registry ? 2000 - 4000 ?

This being sad. On the other hand there are people here that would pay for exceptional foals exceptional prices...

Anyway

egontoast

Aug. 3, 2007, 04:31 PM

No one is forced to pay any particular amount for a horse. Go out looking with your budget in mind and find what you can find. No one is forcing anyone to pay 10k for a weanling. There are plenty of people willing to pay 10K for a wellbred baby. You can just say no.

Black Forest

Aug. 3, 2007, 04:36 PM

IMO, the best small breeders in this country are producing foals that rival both Europe and the bigger, higher proced farms that the OP mentioned. And they sell them for less than comparable foals from the formerly mentioned farms..

Having just spent half an age looking at you website (and choking at your tribute to your great grey friend) I'd say that your programme is perfect proof that buyers do not need to go to Europe to find fab stock bred in the USA.

You're not by any stretch of the imagination alone of course but having just spent time admiring your horses I just wanted to say that. :cool:

Oakstable

Aug. 3, 2007, 04:37 PM

I'd guess there are around 300 stallions in the European-based WB registeries in the US.

NAWPN has about 40.

AHS has about 112.

ISR has double but many stallions appear in other registeries too.

Then there's Belgian, ATA, GOV, AHHA and RPSI.

SWANA and Westphalian are much smaller players.

Selle Francais, not too active in recent years.

It would be interesting to get a number on how many foals are born from these stallions, and also frozen semen, but I think 2000-3000 and 4000 would be on the far outside.

I think the AHS is the most analytical on what is going on in its own breeding scene. The last figure I saw from AHS was that frozen breedings was still in the minority (despite impressions in the forums) but gaining ground.

camohn

Aug. 3, 2007, 04:37 PM

In short I think if you are looking for an upper level prospect then yes, you are going to have to probably consider paying 5 figures for a weanling. If you do not have GP aspirations then there are a lot of very nice but not spectacular mid level prospects out there for well under 10K.

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 3, 2007, 04:46 PM

Are we really comparing OTTBs and their prices to buying Warmbloods?

Back in the late 1970s, I worked in a large Dressage & general purpose/lesson barn. I began to see a pattern. Each year, I could put up a list of the 10 horses, out of 40 that were constantly coming up with a problem. Abscess, tendon, colic, lost shoes, etc. The other 30 were pretty much yearly shots and deworming horses, held shoes, easy. Without fail, ALL of those 10 on the list were OTTBs. Non OTTB TBs were usually NOT on that list, although they ARE the 2nd group to get the award for frequent vet calls. I have now managed 2 other large farms, and the pattern NEVER changes.

I see people with OTTBs wrapping legs, leaving them in for injuries, day after day, week after week. I see the warmbloods out and sound.

Now for the talent. Movement and jump is very heritable. Of the TBs, a few are nice movers, elastic, and a good stride. NONE have the suspension and rhythm of a nice warmblood. There are some TBs that have a VERY nice jump, but many do that knee hanging, over the shoulder jump. Not a single warmblood that has ever been in my barn does not have that knee up jump, with the good use of both front end, and hind end. So from what I have seen, it is MUCH better odds on that bred for gaits and jump foal growing up to be exactly what was intended.

The TBs are also the ones that the boarders come back from the ring complaining about their horse dragging them to the jumps, and they can't slow them down - tense, wired. TBs also from my experience are horses that, especially when young 3 to 8?, need to be ridden at least 5 to 6 times a week to keep them sane. The warmbloods are quite easy with a once a week ride.

All of this may change though as Warmbloods get more and more refined.

Oakstable

Aug. 3, 2007, 04:47 PM

Ditto to what Camohn said.

Unfortunately, the nicest foals can descend into fuglies rather quickly.

Black Forest

Aug. 3, 2007, 04:55 PM

All of this may change though as Warmbloods get more and more refined.

I think you'll find the tide is turning a little over here, the horses are not getting more "refined" any more on average.

Home Again Farm

Aug. 3, 2007, 05:52 PM

Black Forest, you make me blush. Thank you so very much for the compliments. And thank you for exploring the website. It grew like Topsy, but is a labor of love. Especially the big grey's story. :sadsmile:

And, very much yes, there are many many high quality small breeders. The mare and stallion base is getting better and better. Here's to the horses! :yes:

Tamara in TN

Aug. 3, 2007, 05:53 PM

[QUOTE=alexandra;2603125]Talking about Warmblood sporthorses here - right ?!
Who's that ???? Never heard of that before. The professional foal buyers that shop in those kind of numbers (50 - 60 foals) buy mostly between say 6 - 20k. And I know of only two people that I suspect buying in that sort of number in Germany.

I "know" another...a big talker who told the Co operator Newspaper that he imported 50-100 warmbloods a year....course, he also is a year behind paying me for a load of hay ;)

a master of illusion I'd say....

Tamara in TN
look beyond the smoke and mirrors......

Donella

Aug. 3, 2007, 06:44 PM

OH MY LORD..I almost cannot stand reading this thread anymore:no:. I really don't get what the big freaking deal is or what is so hard to grasp about this????. You want to be competative in any horse sport, then you A) 99.9 percent of the time need to look within the breed of horse that wins at the highest levels ( and it seems like ALOT of people on this board are still delusional about what type of horse that is!) AND B) if those individuals are relatively few and far between, then you better damn well believe you are going to pay for it. WOW tough concept.

If you do not have competative goals, then I guess you really don't have to worry at all about spending ten k on a weanling...any horse can take you around the arena at a lower levels and be your best buddy.

In addition, if you really believe that the only reason wb's are high priced is because of the hype ( I guess the fact that all of the olympic /weg/wc are wb is a coincidence?) then you can go on riding whatever you want and be happy about it. You dont have to worry about spending much for a horse;) or freaking out at people who are not as delusional as you.

Tiki

Aug. 3, 2007, 07:34 PM

Alexanddra, I don't know about the numbers for a fact, but a Big Name person in Germany did tell all of the people in the room at a seminar that that is what he does. Obviously I have not proof and I'm not naming names. Sometimes, however, one never knows what really goes on - it may be true for this one person - it may not.

vineyridge

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:07 PM

FN Jahresbericht 2006
3.697 Sporthorse breeding stallions were listed and 71.363 sporthorse broodmares. Alltogether 31.096 sporthorse foals (born in 2006) were registered. In addition 3.780 Pony stallions,plus 28.735 Pony broodmares plus 11.282 pony foals.

Alexandra, if the figures you posted don't lie, the Germany is producing almost as many WBs yearly as the United States produces TBs. Now we know that racing chews up and spits out a lot of TBs, but how can Germany absorb all those sporthorses?

fish

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:34 PM

Excuse me, Darlyn, but I think you've seen a skewed sample of both TB's and WB's. With the exception of a few who came off the track with serious injuries and/or conformation problems, the TB's in my life and on my farm have been every bit as sound and talented as any WB-- I've seen plenty of my friends' WB's come up with career-ending soundness problems while my TB's remained sound. Also, on the matter of movement, at the Sport Horse Breeding Seminar I attended several years ago, I remember Gerd Zuther saying in his history lecture that from the beginning, WB breeders looked to the TB's to improve the movement of the stock they had on their farms. Generations of selective breeding have no doubt made spectacular movers much more common among WB's than TB's, but there are still great moving TB's out there to be found. Indeed, one of my TB mares consistently received 8's and 9's on her gaits from international dressage judges, and Hilda Gurney told me in a clinic that she had the movement to take me "to the top." Maybe you haven't seen a TB with "the suspension and rhythm of a WB" -- but they do exist. That mare certainly had it, and I gather Keen did, too.

At the same time, some of the worst jumpers I've seen have been WB's. E.g., one of my students had a Trakehner mare who had such an inverted, knee-hanging jump that she was downright dangerous over a fence, and I have heard rumours that Laurie's Crusader and many of his get are much the same way.

In the meantime, I suppose you are aware that with all the selective breeding done to produce WB super jumpers, the records for both high and broad jumps were set by TB's.

I don't mean to knock WB's or even to say that TB's, as a group, can rival them as sporthorses. I do think, however, that you're overgeneralizing quite unfairly.

Fairview Horse Center

Aug. 3, 2007, 09:47 PM

Indeed, at the Sport Horse Breeding Seminar I attended several years ago, I remember Gerd Zuther saying in his history lecture that from the beginning, WB breeders looked to the TB's to improve the movement of the stock they had on their farms.

This is of course, true. At the beginning, the Warmbloods moved like, plow horses.

Like I said in my post, this is a description of what I have seen. I have also seen many TBs be shown the the DSHB classes at Devon. I have not seen a one of them with suspension and rhythm like the "good" warmbloods have. Now maybe they were all not showing their best. I can certainly understand that. Mine don't either at Devon.

I also didn't say I had not seen poor jumpers that are Warmbloods, just that the ones have been in my barn all have that nice jump. There are LOTS of Warmbloods that can't jump over a stick, but many are not bred to. Mine are definitely bred to have a good jump, and they do.

copper bay farm

Aug. 3, 2007, 10:01 PM

At the same time, some of the worst jumpers I've seen have been WB's. E.g., one of my students had a Trakehner mare who had such an inverted, knee-hanging jump that she was downright dangerous over a fence, and I have heard rumours that Laurie's Crusader and many of his get are much the same way.

Lauries Crusador xx is a Thoroughbred.

JustJump

Aug. 3, 2007, 10:17 PM

how can Germany absorb all those sporthorses?

For starters, by offering them at auction, 372 at a time, as foals. How many of those are sold out of the country? And not just to the USA.

So the answer is that Germany doesn't absorb them. They sell them.

TKR

Aug. 3, 2007, 10:42 PM

I'm going to take the high road -- I don't think it exalts one registry or breed over the other when you make comparisons and "bash" one. I think it is important to remember that quality and good comes from all of the mentioned registries/breeds. If you have had an unfortunate experience with one, it doesn't mean they are in general good or bad. As far as OTTB's -- there are certainly alot of those which represent excellent quality in every aspect, it's a matter of a good eye and experience in choosing just as it would be in the wb's. I think it's interesting that some of the posters who bash Thoroughbreds seem to assume that all wb's are good quality and have a good work ethic and outstanding conformation, gaits, jumping ability, soundness, etc. That's very naive! So just remember -- if you have to exalt one over the other by demeaning the other you aren't standing on your own merit. And again -- the Jockey Club is a closed registry and breed. The wb still accepts and adores a good Thoroughbred -- so there must be a reason for that. And, not all Thoroughbreds are OTTB's -- some of us have put alot of work in breeding them in a very discrimating way for sport with extensive knowledge of bloodlines and what works. Good luck with your weanlings, etc. and your search for excellence.
PennyG
www.krugerrandrunfarm.com

vineyridge

Aug. 3, 2007, 10:55 PM

For starters, by offering them at auction, 372 at a time, as foals. How many of those are sold out of the country? And not just to the USA.

So the answer is that Germany doesn't absorb them. They sell them.

But of those 31,000+, all can't be worth what it would cost to export them. If the bell curve works, you've got maybe 3100 foals that are top quality and those will be the expensive ones who are sought by both Germans and exporters. What happens to the other 27,000? And we're talking annually, not in gross.

I suppose quality breeders can raise the whole average, but still. . .

And I'm not even considering the 11,000 riding ponies.

ltw

Aug. 3, 2007, 11:38 PM

But can "you" RIDE that "top" dressage horse? Would you WANT to ride it? When you buy the weanling (not "you" per se here--nowhere here am I talking about "you" personally, OK?), are you really, truly planning to ride to "to the top"

Very good Question........

I am now at the point where I am riding the daughters of the mares and stallions that I owned andcompeted. It is a wonderful feeling when you ride the dam, and a number of the offspring of that dam and sire that you know so well. YOu know what to expect in the temperament, rideability, training, quirks, habits, strengths and weaknesses. It is a very comfortable feeling and it is often predictable. You can sit on these youngsters for the first few times and you feel like you are sitting on an old friend after riding the parents.

I now am at the point where I have certain mare lines that I will buy the foals from as I know the rideability of the offspring. And yes, I will pay $10K for a weanling and have paid much more than that.

Some of my best riding horses were the foals that I purchased, raised, rode and competed. But.... I did my research, I bred the same bloodlines, rode those bloodlines, knew to sire and dam and knew what to expect. In the beginning, I made mistakes, I sometimes purchased or bred foals that did not grow up to be what I wanted for my goals. It is truly a life time of learning to figure this out.

And yes... breeders need to make a profit or they don't keep breeding..... I have bred for 17 years. Now I just breed for myself, not for resale.

dray

Aug. 4, 2007, 12:17 AM

BECAUSE - that is what people will pay us for them.

And then they grow up and are worth more.

Donna Ray
Carson Farm
Danish, Trakehner and Russian Warmbloods
www.carson-farm.com

Edgar

Aug. 4, 2007, 01:11 AM

Fish wrote:
one of my students had a Trakehner mare who had such an inverted, knee-hanging jump that she was downright dangerous over a fence, and I have heard rumours that Laurie's Crusader and many of his get are much the same way.

******
The chances for that would be pretty good because most horses from either group you mention are not bred for jumping and most experienced jumper breeders would not go there to breed or look for the next jumper.

Lauries Crusader is a great example of a great TB that improves on Warmbloods but you picking on the wrong horse as this one is a superb dressage producer. One look at the Breed values and you would know - Dressage 132 / Jumping 70
BTW Trakehners are ranked # 17 by the WBFSH with no exciting top jumpers currently.

alexandra

Aug. 4, 2007, 01:11 AM

But of those 31,000+, all can't be worth what it would cost to export them. If the bell curve works, you've got maybe 3100 foals that are top quality and those will be the expensive ones who are sought by both Germans and exporters. What happens to the other 27,000? And we're talking annually, not in gross.

I suppose quality breeders can raise the whole average, but still. . .

And I'm not even considering the 11,000 riding ponies.

Ahhh now we got it - guess where the norma prices for a average (which is actully not tooo bad) foal comes from !

Tiki I would still like to know who that would be buying 50 to 60 foals for the range you gave. And I wonder at which seminar that statement would have been made by that person ? Which Semenira did your take ?
It is interesting to know that people in the US know the market over here much better than we do. And obviously I would love to contact that person next time I have a nice foal.

I for a fact know that the buyers of one of the largest german foal buyer and stallion owner are driving around the country, buying foals for the mentioned range 5-10 k. (it is common in Germany to buy a foal via handshake and than pay at weaning for just the foal no boarding costs).
Than as it comes to later time in the summer, the breeders get calls like well we have bought already too many of stallion xyz so we do not take yours. That's the real live.