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NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 10:43 AM
Here is a horse I am looking at to buy.Wanted to know what you thought? She is 6 hanovarian and knows very little so be kind. She was kinda spooky (dogs running along a fence behind us behind bushes) so my hands are held a higher than usual. She is a trooper though with some letters in the arena and some out and the dogs! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7216105929145776982&pr=goog-sl

I am riding in jeans did not know we would be doing this on that day it had been raining but when it let up we were too excited to wait!

Ps video starts out a little blurry but we get alot closer!

NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 10:57 AM
Go ahead with the comments. I dont really want to be beat up about my seat though. I was just happy to ride her.. I love the new horse smell

Cooper
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:21 AM
nice mare. I liked the canter better in the other video (Dagma 2). She was more forward.

She looks fun, whats not to like?:)

A Horse of Course
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:25 AM
I like her too!

NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:28 AM
nice mare. I liked the canter better in the other video (Dagma 2). She was more forward.

She looks fun, whats not to like?:)

I did ride her once before however I could not get her leads and so I wasnt really interested (being an amature and all). Then after looking around I came back and thought what the heck lets do a test and just see.

The canter is better in that video because I wasnt dealing with the dogs!

slc2
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:34 AM
She is a saint.

MyReality
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:35 AM
Good horse for dressage. Nice built, trainable and great attitude. However I would get hock and stifle checked. Maybe she is just weak, but she looks a bit short behind in places and sometimes drag the hind a little bit. May end up to be nothing at all... don't mean to give you a heart attack. Probably just need to be stronger. It will also be better if you can post a video of her being lunged.

NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:36 AM
She is a saint.

Awww slc thats nice I guess I asked for it though huh??

NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:37 AM
Good horse for dressage. Nice built, trainable and great attitude. However I would get hock and stifle checked. Maybe she is just weak, but she looks a bit short behind in places and sometimes drag the hind a little bit. May end up to be nothing at all... don't mean to give you a heart attack. Probably just need to be stronger. It will also be better if you can post a video of her being lunged.

We want a good vet check prior to buying.

WindsongEq
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:41 AM
She has three fairly good gaits, I would give her a 7 on gaits for the training level test ridden. I would need to see more expression for an 8. I thought her impulsion fairly good in this test. She is pretty green for 6 years old. She doesn't yet accept contact with the bit seen by her busy sometimes open mouth when she came close enough to the camera to see it so her score for submission would be a bit lower. I would experiment with bits to help her become more quiet and accepting of contact. I would try the KK ultra with the "bead" in the middle that forms to their palate first. She carried herself slightly uphill a couple of times during the test, so with proper gymnastic training that would be developed.
You need to close your legs in the halts, this will keep your leg in a correct position and help her to accept your rein aid. In the first one she balanced back and the second one she hollowed.
She appears to be hollow left and stiff right, she needs better bend to the right on your 20 m o's and better straightness on your outer rein to the left. She missed the right lead 2x but I liked the fact that you noticed it and corrected it right away.
My concern if interested in purchasing this horse would not be gaits or temperament, but acceptance of the bit. I would have her teeth checked and I would bring a few bits to try on her to see if I could find something better for her.

Beam Me Up
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:43 AM
Really like her build, her movement. She seems very willing and like she would be a fun partner to train. Something really steady and sweet about her.

In a few spots on the tape I thought she looked short on the LH, and a few others just generally short behind, so I agree with the other poster to keep an eye out in the vetting. Though of course babies tend to be weak behind and lose rhythm easily, so probably she is fine.

Good luck!

NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 11:46 AM
I knew about the dogs and their random runnings behind the fence so I tensed up and rode her harder on her mouth. He lack of connection is totally my fault. I have ridden her before with nice contact. In an arena. The leads are a waaayyy better than they were. However My legs and hands are from my own bad riding and distraction this I will admit.

Dalfan
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:00 PM
I like the horse as well.

I would consider shortening your stirrups a hole - you are on you're tippy-toe and in a chair seat as well, which shoots your leg forward with every post.

I hope you don't wear tennis shoes often while riding; Apart from the safety issue, when your foot goes through the stirrup that much, it is hard to get in a balanced position.

Good luck.

Elegante E
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:03 PM
I think if your leg/seat were more secure, the horse would be less above the bit (something you sound aware of). So if she passes the vet and your trainer is on board to help you both, go for it. Personality is so important and she sounds great - you sound convinced too.

Good luck!

slc2
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:07 PM
"would not be gaits or temperament, but acceptance of the bit"

my first and most fundamental criteria is suitability to the rider.

NOMI, do you feel comfortable with the horse? do you feel safe? do you feel like the two of you get along together? do you feel the horse was reacting to the dogs simply because she wasn't yet used to you, and do you think the earlier problems riding the horse were due to the two of you just not being used to eachother? yes? then forget about people scoring her at a 7 or whatever. most first tryouts on a horse are pretty rocky, that's why good trainers always advise a person to try a horse twice.

She has very appropriate gaits for the rider, and she has a very tolerant temperament judging from the video, i think the unevenness and apparent lack of 'acceptance of the bit' has nothing to do with the horse.

rebecca yount
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:08 PM
She seems like a very nice mare at first glance. And a saint. Who are her sire and dam? Is she approved for breeding by the AHS or Germans?

NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:33 PM
"would not be gaits or temperament, but acceptance of the bit"

my first and most fundamental criteria is suitability to the rider.

NOMI, do you feel comfortable with the horse? do you feel safe? do you feel like the two of you get along together? do you feel the horse was reacting to the dogs simply because she wasn't yet used to you, and do you think the earlier problems riding the horse were due to the two of you just not being used to eachother? yes? then forget about people scoring her at a 7 or whatever. most first tryouts on a horse are pretty rocky, that's why good trainers always advise a person to try a horse twice.

She has very appropriate gaits for the rider, and she has a very tolerant temperament judging from the video, i think the unevenness and apparent lack of 'acceptance of the bit' has nothing to do with the horse.

Absolutely, I have tried many already and she is one I feel quite safe on. We could not get our leads before because I wasnt sure about correcting her too much and did not want to put alot of pressure on a young horse I did not know. She is not really use to the dogs as they dont ride her out of the arena much yet. I was being a deffensive rider (in a bad way) but I felt she was a good sport and a great match.

NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:34 PM
She seems like a very nice mare at first glance. And a saint. Who are her sire and dam? Is she approved for breeding by the AHS or Germans?


I havnt even asked about her breeding as I dont intend to use her for breeding. I really need to get that info though.

cuatx55
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:38 PM
She looks green, but sweet. I like her! But you have to decide if she's the horse you want to invest in. She can be the greatest horse in the world and still not be a good fit. Usually it is easy to tell if it's going to work by the first or second ride. Looks like you are comfortable on her.

She looks a little off, but it could just be the new rider and tension. Get X-rays and flexions done if you do decide to buy her. There might be a reason she's a green older horse (injury, etc).


I would also have a competent trainer rider her in the beginning to sort out any major issues and start on the right foot.

slc2
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:44 PM
I don't think she's off at all. In any case, all horses get a veterinary exam with xrays before one buys, and hopefully, your trainer or instructor rides the horse as well. It's best to have an instructor involved who can guide you in the purchase and after.

Whether to have the horse ridden by someone else or not, ie, trained, that's the person's choice, but it's either that or frequent lessons...or both...no one gets in for free :).

lovaleo4
Jul. 30, 2007, 12:49 PM
She is very nice, i like her!!:D

NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 01:00 PM
I am unable to read pms my computer is shot. Can u email me is that allowed?/

dreamygrril @ yahoo

siegi b.
Jul. 30, 2007, 01:11 PM
I thought the day would never come where I agreed with slc, BUT.... my first thought when watching the video was "that horse is a SAINT!" I think this is defiitely a case where the rider is much greener than the horse.

onzbit
Jul. 30, 2007, 01:23 PM
This looks like a sweet mare. She is very underdevloped for a training level test. She is dragging her left hind leg in the trot and is doing alot of head tilting. She is very out behind so collection will be very diffucult in the future. She has very little if any over step in the walk and is not swinginig over her back. She changes tempo in the trot alot and leans to the right when going right. She looks very kind and sweet with limited talent for upper level dressage.

tempichange
Jul. 30, 2007, 01:25 PM
Nice mare, decent movement and looks to be trainable. I saw video #2 of her and her canter is much nicer than this first impression. If you like her get her.

Dalfan
Jul. 30, 2007, 02:21 PM
She is very out behind so collection will be very diffucult in the future. She has very little if any over step in the walk and is not swinginig over her back. She changes tempo in the trot alot and leans to the right when going right. She looks very kind and sweet with limited talent for upper level dressage.

She is out behind because she is green, weak with a novice riding her for the first time. This vid is NOT, IMHO, indicative of future potential.

Most of the "faults" you cite are due to the rider mostly, and being green and weak/untrained.

NOMIOMI1
Jul. 30, 2007, 02:27 PM
She is out behind because she is green, weak with a novice riding her for the first time. This vid is NOT, IMHO, indicative of future potential.

Most of the "faults" you cite are due to the rider mostly, and being green and weak/untrained.

I agree totally. I am not allowing her to move the way she can I am shutting her down. I was tense and trying to shut her down since I had the warning that she would poss spook over the dogs. Keep in mind I know how little she knows even going out of the arena was kinda nerve racking for me>

I thought she handled the bad riding, dogs, and newness quite well.

inca
Jul. 30, 2007, 02:29 PM
Nice mare that I would also nominate for sainthood.

Dazednconfused
Jul. 30, 2007, 03:30 PM
I think she looks off too.

PiedPiper
Jul. 30, 2007, 03:48 PM
I think the off or head bobbing is actually caused by how hard the rider is coming down on the horse's back every time she comes down from posting. If you watch she only bobs when the rider is sitting and is steady when the rider is rising.

I think is too hard to tell what real potential this horse has but handled a green rider very well and seems to have a great personality. :D

slc2
Jul. 30, 2007, 03:54 PM
"a saint" is what most people need to be riding. those who aren't, fall into two categories, people who know they should be, and those who don't.

class
Jul. 30, 2007, 04:06 PM
I think the off or head bobbing is actually caused by how hard the rider is coming down on the horse's back every time she comes down from posting. If you watch she only bobs when the rider is sitting and is steady when the rider is rising.

don't worry, the horse will be fine, all she needs is a western saddle.

monstrpony
Jul. 30, 2007, 04:41 PM
Another vote for sainthood. Goes as ridden.

Jasper'sMom
Jul. 30, 2007, 07:41 PM
Another vote for uneven behind at times - especially in LH. But, I also agree that this might indicate greenness/lack of fitness, and a good vet check will give you the info you need. She seems very sweet!

A Horse of Course
Jul. 30, 2007, 08:29 PM
Ok, I think enough people have said that the horse is a saint, does the OP need to be told that 5 more times? (Rhetorical question, to which you should tell yourself no.)
I don't know if those responses were meant to be rude but saying "the horse seems to have a really good tempermant" is far more professional.

Hats of to the OP for responding professionally and politely to the above.

Dalfan
Jul. 30, 2007, 08:44 PM
Ok, I think enough people have said that the horse is a saint, does the OP need to be told that 5 more times? (Rhetorical question, to which you should tell yourself no.)
I don't know if those responses were meant to be rude but saying "the horse seems to have a really good tempermant" is far more professional.

We'll just submit our responses to you next time for approval, how's about that?:)

Kathy Johnson
Jul. 30, 2007, 09:10 PM
This is not a match I would want any of my students to make unless they were really sure what they are getting into. The horse is green, the rider somewhat unbalanced on her. I gasped in a canter depart or two and in a few downward transitions, which does not bode well. The horse looks like she might have a tendency to scoot.

If it were my student, I would have her try the horse six or seven more times. A lease option to buy might be in order. I would want to know how the horse is going to accept the rider in a period over time. Many green horses accept the rider at first, then one day say, "enough!" I think this horse would benefit from professional training for awhile longer before being ridden exclusively by an AA.

Although the horse is green, I would want to know if the rider can sit the trot as it stands. If the rider can't sit the trot now, there's a chance it could take a long, long time.

If I were to give a student at this level my best advice on this young horse, I would say, "are you willing to spend a year on the longe line and work with a trainer every time you ride?" If the answer is yes, this looks like a nice young prospect with a good mind and good gaits. They could make an outstanding pair if everything goes safely and according to plan. If the answer is no, and the rider doesn't have the patience to take ample time to develop a relationship, I would steer them away from this horse.

(Edited to say the biggest issue I see is that the rider has a tendency to hike her right leg and sit well off to the left. Rider gets on her tiptoes, which raises the center of balance. This, coupled with the horse's quick reactions, could lead to an unpleasant meeting with the ground, should the rider be off to one side and the horse heading quickly the other way. All in all it's not a bad trial ride, but I'd want to straighten out those issues promptly. I suspect it is this weight shift that is also causing the missed right lead depart).

I don't mean to blunt or brutal, but that is honestly what I would tell a student, given that video. My students do not always enjoy my honesty, but they eventually appreciate it.

katarine
Jul. 30, 2007, 10:15 PM
I agree with all that Kathy said. This is a nice mare, and I've no doubt the OP has the best intentions. But this mare is too green and will grow tired of making up for the rider's green ways.

On to the next one. I don't believe the OP is steady enough in the saddle for this particular horse. On a strange horse, the rider needs to be within their comfort zone enough to help the horse through spooky areas- NOT tense up and pray. Tensing and praying is for some other situations, NOT strange horses.

dressagediosa
Jul. 30, 2007, 10:24 PM
If it were my student, I would have her try the horse six or seven more times.

And if I were the seller, I'd say no to trials four through seven.

OP, your trainer and your vet can guide you well through this decision.

slc2
Jul. 31, 2007, 09:05 AM
Everyone has faults with their riding. EVERYONE. No one is perfect. At different stages of the journey different faults are expected and appropriate. Everyone has their challenges and difficulties.

Whether to get a green horse or not, or one that one doesn't look like Reiner Klimke is riding it on the first ride, is a matter of choice.

Many times, the new horse moves the rider OUT of her comfort zone, out of the realm of gaits she can sit perfectly...this isn't altogether a bad thing. If the rider is safe and not afraid and if the rider is willing to do the work.

This is how many riders learn to train and progress up the levels, when they can't afford to buy a trained horse, and would be bored or not challenged enough on a horse with less gaits and less potential.

Also, students who progress quickly are going to be running into trouble in 18 months if they 'buy down', or 'buy exactly where they're at' or ride only what they can sit and handle perfectly right then. They're going to have to get another horse.

What I like to think, is that a rider as eager and enthusiastic to learn as NOMI, who comes here and asks questions and remains fairly good humored regardless of the responses, is the type who would welcome riding a green horse, even if it was difficult and challenged her alot.

With the right guidance it can work out very well. Without guidance, without hard work, without the right attitude, without some little bit of bravery, without patience and understanding, no, it does not work.

You guys see only the bad, I see the good. Sure there are faults, but they are expected ones, I see potential. You say the horse is a saint. All well and good.

In 3 months, when the honeymoon is over, the horse will be handing this rider a rash of **** on a plate, and I think she's tough enough to get through it and not quit. Yes, she would have an easier time on a different horse. But people very often choose to take the horse with more future potential so they can bond with the horse over a long period of time, and not outgrow it in a few months.

But I think the rider is showing an excellent attitude. I see a person who seems to understand why the horse was not performing well and adjusted her riding to improve it - IN ONE RIDE - under pressure, while being videotaped, on a new horse. No everything is not fixed, but this rider is a worker and she is really making an effort. If she continues to all will be well. So she is loose. That is a hell of a lot better than being too tense and riding too tight and defensive. That takes years and is never totally fixed. The faults she has are expected faults and appropriate faults.

a friend of mine looked EXACTLY like this - 18 months later, I couldn't even FIND her in the warmup at a show, because she had progressed so much, and yes, with a green horse. She had good guidance and she was a worker, and that's all it took.

If she had said the horse terrified her, and if she really seemed tight up there, if she didn't show the same 'let's try!' attitude, if she started whining at what you guys said, I might say something different for her. But she seems very enthused, seems to understand why the horse wasn't perfect on the first try, and seems extremely eager to examine her own riding and to do everything she can to progress...most of all, i hear no whining. I've seen this sort of situation work out very well. She may decide it's over her head, but it's a personal choice, and no shame in either choice.

If the goal is learning dressage, it isn't important exactly HOW you choose to learn, as long as you learn.

Kathy Johnson
Jul. 31, 2007, 09:25 AM
I've seen this situation work out very well and work out very poorly. I see the good and I see the bad--and I've seen a lot of both with a rider moving up to the next horse. One of my favorite students bought an enormously athletic, huge moving warmblood when she wasn't quite ready. I gave her the same advice--it might take a year on the longe line. She spent a year on the longe line, and now it's a lovely match, although still with some issues.

That's why it's only the fair the rider knows what she's getting into. It might take some time. A rider's excellent and enthusiastic attitude can be destroyed very quickly if the horse becomes frightened and dumps the rider a few times, which I've seen repeatedly in these situations, usually in the first month at the new home.

I think it's only fair the horse knows what she's getting into as well. That's why more trial rides are in order. Many people do not want their horses tried 7 or 8 times or to do a lease/option to buy. They would prefer to take a gamble and make a sale, and that's their right. As a buyer, I would prefer not to take the gamble and don't mind losing the sale, because then I know it just wasn't meant to be.

kwpnWB
Jul. 31, 2007, 09:38 AM
She has lots of potential :) Good luck with making the decission!

A Horse of Course
Jul. 31, 2007, 10:22 AM
I think a lot of the advice the OP has been given is very helpful and honest advice.

Some responses were simply rude, and without any helpful advice, some included both. Good advice and honesty, don't have to go hand in hand with rudeness.

slc2
Jul. 31, 2007, 10:48 AM
i agree with kathy, it does take a special attitude to make this work. i don't know if any of the posts are really rude, i only skimmed some of them, perhaps there's some rudeness buried in there, i think at times someone being just flat out realistic or warning someone of how hard it can be, can seem rude, when they are really just trying to be realistic. if a person is cautioned and warned and told how bad it can be and still wants to try, maybe they have the right attitude to make it work. it's not always just about attitude, though, money for a trainer, time every day...it's about a lot of things.

ToN Farm
Jul. 31, 2007, 11:40 AM
FWIW, I agree with everything SLC said her her previous post. I think this rider has a lot going for her, and I like the horse, too. Let the vet determine whether it is sound or not.

My comment would be that the rider should have the trainer there to watch the trial rides. It's ok for the student to do the first ride by herself, but before she buys, she should get the trainer's opinion. And....there should be a trainer involved with a pair at this stage of training, and on a frequent basis.

IMO, there is not excuse for riding in the jeans and sneakers.

mp
Jul. 31, 2007, 11:48 AM
You say the horse is a saint.

I believe you were the first the canonize the horse, slc.

NOMI, the mare is very nice. But (speaking as a novice rider myself) you're going to need a lot of time and good instruction to get her really going well.

Is this mare going to replace your Arabian sporthorse? Or would you be riding both?

slc2
Jul. 31, 2007, 11:51 AM
yes, and i meant it, but i don't think i mean that how some people mean it.

the horse IS indeed handling the new rider very well, but when i say she is a saint, that's all i mean, that RIGHT NOW, she's being a good egg about things. she is not going to be canonized, because after all she is still a horse, not mother theresa and she WILL be a challenge after this honeymoon period. horses always do so, they find out the weaknesses in the rider and they challenge the rider to face those weaknesses and conquer them, regardless if they have been trained for 3 months or 30 years.

i forgot that's what horse she had before....to go from another type of horse with less activity thru the back to a warmblood, this is exactly how you expect to see the rider reacting to it. this is basically what just about anyone would look like at this point. to make that step up is very good for a rider's development but not everyone has fun the entire time....:lol:

mp
Jul. 31, 2007, 12:03 PM
i forgot that's what horse she had before....to go from another type of horse with less activity thru the back to a warmblood, this is exactly how you expect to see the rider reacting to it. this is basically what just about anyone would look like at this point. to make that step up is very good for a rider's development but not everyone has fun the entire time....:lol:

In the next few weeks, my instructor is planning a half-day group lesson with four of her students. We're going to watch each other ride tests (TL) and then switch horses and ride them again -- there will be a Hanoverian mare, a Friesian gelding, a draft cross mare and my Arabian gelding. I doubt anyone will be there to tape it, but I'll let you know how my big step up goes.

hitchinmygetalong
Jul. 31, 2007, 12:18 PM
horses always do so, they find out the weaknesses in the rider and they challenge the rider to face those weaknesses and conquer them, regardless if they have been trained for 3 months or 30 years

That is complete and total b.s.

You make it sound as if all horses just sit around and wait for an opening and then work to outsmart the human. I think you give them a tad bit too much credit there, slc. I honestly can't believe they are as calculating as all that.

Bronte
Jul. 31, 2007, 12:41 PM
I think this is a totally suitable horse. Please do not allow the alarmists (although I am sure well meaning) to put you off.

First of all, when you get used to her, you will ride her much better.

Second, does she step a little short left hind. Yes. What green, unmuscled, crooked six year old doesn't....................

Will solid work (with the help of a qualified instuctor) rectify this? Yes!

There are no perfect horses. But as far as I can see, this is as good a match as you get!

Have lots of fun!!!

Aggie4Bar
Jul. 31, 2007, 12:49 PM
horses always do so, they find out the weaknesses in the rider and they challenge the rider to face those weaknesses and conquer them, regardless if they have been trained for 3 months or 30 yearsYou make it sound as if all horses just sit around and wait for an opening and then work to outsmart the human. I think you give them a tad bit too much credit there, slc. I honestly can't believe they are as calculating as all that.
I don't think it's about plotting or outsmarting. Weakness in the rider trains the horse to be a different way, regardless of how the horse was trained previously. It happens to people with schoolmasters all the time. They buy this great horse and then find that they need someone else to keep it tuned up for them. Or if they don't have help, they often find they lose the ability to do certain things, and they can't figure out why. Horses adjust to their riders. If the rider is green and/or weak, the horse learns to be weak, crooked, etc. If the rider is inconsistent, the horse may get frustrated and develop behavioral issues. Likewise, if the horse is reprogrammed to give only a halfassed effort, the rider - upon improvement - may find themselves dealing with quite a bit of resistence. But plotting, rebellion, etc., has nothing to do with it. It's just inadvertant training and adaptation.

slc2
Jul. 31, 2007, 12:55 PM
agree with previous poster. it has nothing to do with being devious or mean, it's just that nature abhors a vacuum. your aids create a gap, the horse moves into that gap.

you don't use your outside rein, eventually the horse is going to start going out the gate. you don't use your legs and insist on a response? eventually the horse is going to not go forward. you don't keep the horse busy enough or forward? eventually he is going to start spooking, unless he's totally inured to start with. it's just how things are. the horse is just being a horse, and responding to how he's being ridden, and with a horse that is not older and already has very set habits, it is very easy to establish habits without realizing it - habits one does not intend. when the person takes over and rides the horse himself all the time, the process starts. every time a person gets on a horse, he trains it, for better or for worse. the person has to be persistent and patient, and willing to seek help when things go wrong and they don't know what to do.

hitchinmygetalong
Jul. 31, 2007, 12:56 PM
Well, okay.

mp
Jul. 31, 2007, 12:57 PM
yes, and i meant it, but i don't think i mean that how some people mean it.

the horse IS indeed handling the new rider very well, but when i say she is a saint, that's all i mean, that RIGHT NOW, she's being a good egg about things. she is not going to be canonized, because after all she is still a horse, not mother theresa and she WILL be a challenge after this honeymoon period. horses always do so, they find out the weaknesses in the rider and they challenge the rider to face those weaknesses and conquer them, regardless if they have been trained for 3 months or 30 years.

I wish you'd quit padding your posts once I've replied ...

OK, this is better than the Sturm und Drang version that left the rider naked and facing all his/her flaws in front of God, horse, instructor, farrier, tack shop owner and anyone else who happened to be near the arena at the time. But it's still ummm .... BS in my book.

Horses aren't fault-seeking missiles. Mostly they just want to get along. But if you don't make it easy or at least reasonably possible for them to do as you're asking, they won't do it. Even if they're trained.

slc2
Jul. 31, 2007, 01:04 PM
you may have mistaken my previous post about how people feel about dressage, i am not saying it's a good thing or desirable, for someone to get so hysterical after a less than perfect riding lesson or to whip a horse that beat them at a show. i'm saying it's a bad thing. and i do think, that for many people, their feelings about dressage and about reaching for that classical perfection is just...too much. but i also think caring about something and wanting to do well is good, just not to degree some people take it.

"pad my post" - if someone takes what i say and twists it around to accuse me of believing something totally ridiculous that i never in my wildest dreams would even entertain believing, and i respond to say no, of course not, i don't think that, that's ''padding".

i don't think it's so complex as 'making it easy'. the horse is trained to do something a certain way, you ask him that way, he does it. it's very simple. i don't think there is any 'making it easy', except that it's probably not easy when he's crooked, not going forward, the rider is hanging off one side, screaming, holding onto his ears, pulling back so hard he has a 12 inch smile, etc.

i think some horses require a lot more skill than others. horses DO have personalities. one horse reacts to a command and says, 'yes, thanks', and another says, 'ha, make me'. horses ARE different. they DO respond differently. what is a punishment to one horse is nothing to another. horses have feelings and personalities. they are not all the same. they are much like people, some are far more cooperative than others. yes, if they are handled and trained perfectly, they are very willing. not all horses are, in fact, trained perfectly or handled perfectly...and that STILL avoids the issue of they are just different. different levels of activity, sensitivity, focus, and yes, very different physically, etc.

i just got a video of about 20 horses, all the same age, all receive the same training from the same riders at the same farm. all of the same breed and bloodlines. and they are as different as night and day. one is very forward, another is not. one has already become very supple, another has not. one is cantering very well, another is still very unbalanced. one needs constant reminders with a tap of the whip and is slow as molasses, one fairly flies from the leg. one has remained very shy and easily startled by noises, the other is being ridden at a show thru a huge storm with loose papers and debris flying all over the place. horses have feelings and personalities. they are not like the the little robot boy in Artificial Intelligence. they do not all react the same to everything.

again, we're debating semantics. to you, 'making it easy' means not falling off one side and screaming, to me it is 'asking correctly', i don't think we are saying two different things, just saying it a different way, like usual, but do carry on. i have popcorn.

class
Jul. 31, 2007, 01:24 PM
..if someone takes what i say and twists it around to accuse me of believing something totally ridiculous that i never in my wildest dreams would even entertain believing..


to you, 'making it easy' means not falling off one side and screaming

don't you hate it when someone twists around your words into something totally ridiculous that you never in your wildest dreams would even entertain believing mp?

MyReality
Jul. 31, 2007, 02:09 PM
Second, does she step a little short left hind. Yes. What green, unmuscled, crooked six year old doesn't....................


I disagree. She is 6. She is not 3. My 3 yr old is not short behind. Yes mine is green and crooked and unbalanced... but she does not get short behind. I know WB grow slowly, but there are plenty of WB out there at 6 doing a pretty reasonable test without getting short.

I don't even know if a rider can make a horse short behind, just by blocking him... when you block a horse incorrectly, he shortens front and back.

I do NOT agree she is such a horrible rider this horse is totally inappropriate. I say this because you go to any local schooling show, at the lower levels, half of the riders don't ride much better than her, really. However, my point is ALSO this:

firstly, if this horse is expensive and bought as a prospect, there really is no point. You buy a prospect because you want to advance a well bred horse. But if you are still learning, neither you or the horse goes anywhere. So make sure you are not secretly hoping the horse will bring you somewhere. I know plenty plenty of people, as exactly described by Kathy Johnson, buy a fancy horse and don't know what to do with it.

secondly, at amateur level, temperament comes first. We usually imagine a specialty horse has less to offer in this department. 2 factors at play here: 1. breeders of prospects breed for athletic abilities first, temperament second. 2. people who bring up prospects: they are good riders so the horse is good for them. Or even the horse acts up, it is really no big deal.

thirdly, does it mean we are only happy to see you ride a little donkey... but then we will all say he is not suitable for dressage. Yes and No. Basically an amateur looking for a horse to grow with, you want an even temperament horse that can put with with some abuse, and you want one that was not professionally trained, and you want one that was not too sharp athletically, and one that doesn't have big flaws/limitations for the sport.

mp
Jul. 31, 2007, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by slc2 to you, 'making it easy' means not falling off one side and screaming

No, slc. It just means 'making it easy' however that is defined by what you're asking and by the individual horse. You make it easy to do what you want and difficult (but not impossible) to NOT do it. Works on all levels for all disciplines.


don't you hate it when someone twists around your words into something totally ridiculous that you never in your wildest dreams would even entertain believing mp?

:lol:

I don't know if she twisted my words or not. I haven't gotten all the way through the post. And by the time I do, she'll probably have added more to it, so ... ;)

Slc felt I "threatened" her with a colonoscopy. But I think she should be much more worried about the prospect of carpal tunnel syndrome.

sm
Jul. 31, 2007, 02:45 PM
Horses aren't fault-seeking missiles. Mostly they just want to get along. But if you don't make it easy or at least reasonably possible for them to do as you're asking, they won't do it. Even if they're trained.

I've seen both fault-seeking missiles and horses that just want to get along. I guess it's really not that different than people on this board: fault-seeking missiles and those that just want to get along.

To the OP: what do you plan as a training program? Are you working with a trainer? I think if the partnership/chemistry is a good one, if she vets out, and you are open to learning and working periodically with a trainer --- it could work out quite nicely.

Best of luck to you. The mare does seem lovely.

Stacie
Jul. 31, 2007, 02:45 PM
Here is a horse I am looking at to buy.Wanted to know what you thought? She is 6 hanovarian and knows very little so be kind.
Nomiomi1, can you tell us a little more about the mare? Why does she know so little at 6? Was she bred? Ignored? Trail ridden only? Is the price reasonable for a horse that is so green? Is she a registered Hanoverian or she is an unregistered Hanoverian/TB (which lots of sellers call Hanoverians). Can you tell us who her parents were (You were going to ask, I think), as knowing her breeding might say something about her temperament.
Besides others comments about her soundness, I wonder about the behavior that you described as spooky. You said you felt safe on her, that's good. I just wonder about a 6 year old that is spooky under saddle, green or not. You can't chalk that up to a lack of maturity and she should have been around enough to not be afraid of dogs. Has this mare not been handled much or ground worked either?
What is their reason for selling her?

Mozart
Jul. 31, 2007, 02:45 PM
Nice mare. I like her. But I too think that unless OP (who has a lot going for her) gets good regular help mare might say "had it". Or she might not, hard to say. She did not look overly thrilled with her test ride, albeit she was pretty obedient (especially given the spook potential)

Unless I read the second Dagmar video wrong, are they asking $6,500 for the mare? That seems kind of low for a decent, started, nice mare. Maybe I got that wrong, but if it is correct, it would make me go...hmmmm.....get out the Xray.

Regardless, whoever you ride with regularly needs to see you ride the mare a couple of times and get on her themselves, they will know best what progress the two of you could make together. Good luck :)

HappyHoppingHaffy
Jul. 31, 2007, 04:22 PM
[QUOTE=Dalfan;2593218]I would consider shortening your stirrups a hole - you are on you're tippy-toe and in a chair seat as well, which shoots your leg forward with every post.
QUOTE]

Absolutely agree; your stirrups are too long. You're reaching for them and throwing yourself totally off balance.

I like the horse, too. She looks to have a sweet disposition and seems willing. She's out of condition, but I don't see any signs of lameness.

Good luck and have fun! You two look nice together!

slc2
Jul. 31, 2007, 07:40 PM
I don't think her stirrups are to long - I think they need to come off, just like with everyone else.

and just like with everyone else, it's a matter of getting herself deeper into the saddle and her leg DOWN - when she does, her stirrups will look way too short. Take them off, get longed, and get the seat down into the saddle off the cantle, and your knees down lower. Its's a chair seat, with the person's rear slid back on the cantle. If anything, the stirrups are too short.

staceyk
Jul. 31, 2007, 08:58 PM
Hi,

I personally would be unable to ride in jeans and sneaks, and figure you may be in an unfamiliar saddle. In light of that, I hesitate to judge your riding with any kind of finality!

I didn't watch the video all the way through but the horse has found a happy place with you pretty quickly. She looks light on her feet, and quick in the hind leg. If she is kind, and if she is a saint, lucky you! I agree that you need to know more about her history,and need to ride her more.

Now, the brass tacks. Can you ball park what they are asking for her, and her breeding and height? A six year old w/not much training should be a fairly low price.

NOMIOMI1
Aug. 1, 2007, 12:03 PM
Thank you guys (those who came to my rescue). I really was thrown into this and just wanted feedback on the mare. I thank you for the helpful comments on my seat. I worked on my chair seat already! on my gelding. On him I dont do it as much though (per my eyes on the ground). It must be part of my new horse new saddle style and I take it you dont like it? I have competition on this mare purchase wise and am now waiting to see the results of that since I cant make an offer until Aug 20th when our other deal goes through. I have not ridden her again and I want to do a lesson on her and vet before even making an offer. I would be keeping my arab (for those who asked) he is doing very very well and we show in a week to hopefully see those improvements in our scores.

I agree that the horse is more than my seat is currently ready for. I was game and knew that she wouldnt throw me so we would have to (with lessons) kinda find our way. My trainer recommends a big huge soft baby bit and a long slow start. She knows me and trusts my ability to handle the spooking. She calls my seat in this video my defensive posture which is lethargy. I go limp to avoid adding to the tension per my experience with hotter horses. She likes it but said I need to man up and ride through a little more than that!

~Freedom~
Oct. 16, 2007, 06:09 PM
I have competition on this mare purchase wise and am now waiting to see the results of that since I cant make an offer until Aug 20th when our other deal goes through. I have not ridden her again and I want to do a lesson on her and vet before even making an offer. I would be keeping my arab (for those who asked) he is doing very very well and we show in a week to hopefully see those improvements in our scores.



Going back over NOMIOMI's posts I was wondering what happened to this mare. Did you get her or not?

J-Lu
Oct. 16, 2007, 08:48 PM
If I recall correctly (I could be wrong), you are fairly new to dressage. I think that you two look nice together and that some of the issues will iron out as you get to know each other and as you learn dressage. A vet exam is a good idea, but I think she looks nice and pleasant at first glance.

Personally, I can't believe that you're riding in jeans. HOW do you avoid those sores on the insides of your knees? :o My skin hurts thinking about it.
J.

NOMIOMI1
Oct. 17, 2007, 11:24 AM
Nope we didnt buy her my trainer really doesnt see a reason for me to buy a horse that will end up most likely around the same level as the one I already have.

MistyBlue
Oct. 17, 2007, 03:06 PM
Paddling JRey.

MistyBlue
Oct. 17, 2007, 03:37 PM
No problem...I'm constantly forgetting words...usually in the middle of typing out a post. :winkgrin: I was just so proud of myself for being able to provide the word you were looking for that I had to reply. :yes: :lol:

InsideLeg2OutsideRein
Oct. 17, 2007, 04:22 PM
"a saint" is what most people need to be riding. those who aren't, fall into two categories, people who know they should be, and those who don't.


That is so true.:yes: I learned the hard way, but at least without either getting myself or my horse seriously injured.

As for an opinion on the mare, FWIW, I like her, she just gives me that "I can be trusted" feeling, but am not qualified to evaluate a young prospect in any more meaningful way. :D

Shiaway
Oct. 18, 2007, 01:28 AM
horrible mare. Very lame. Poor movement. Too green. I'll take her for you for a few years, fix everything and send her back to you free of charge. I'll PM you with the addy of where you can have her shipped. ;)

FlowerDressage
Oct. 18, 2007, 10:17 AM
It appears from the initial watching of the video that this horse is a good match for you. It appears to be working at a higher level than you are riding and that is good. I think it is VERY hard to teach a student at the same time you are teaching the horse. So, if one of the partners is at a higher level it becomes easier to make them a team.
Keep riding, check you saddle, I think part of your "Seat" problem may have to do with the fit of the saddle. Riding without stirrups is a GREAT way to gather your balance, but make sure the saddle puts you in a good position.
Diane