Saddle Chariot?

[DIYdriver]

Just for fun, has anyone gotten to try out a Saddle Chariot? I read a couple of other discussions about it and it seems that some people love it and others are not so keen. I guess it depends on what your interests and goals are with your equine. But for just getting out and having a good time, it does look like fun. :) It would be interesting to hear what someone who has actually tried one thinks. Not thinking about buying one, maybe the next time I have an extra couple of thousand $$$$ to throw around.:winkgrin:

http://naturaldriving.co.uk/content_home.php

DIY

[Thomas_1]

No and for absolute certain I won't be!

And its been some time since I've read such a load of rubbish as what's on their web site!

And if it costs a couple of thousand pounds, then I can't think why as it would only cost about £100 maximum to build !

[Renae]

OMG, that is histarical! If you get out of the cart it comes unhitched from the pony, thats great so you hop out of the cart and abandon the pony and the vehicle flies free from him and scraes him half to death. And then they show this ill-designed item being used as a forecart. Poor ponies!

[goodhors]

A friend in the UK has seen it in action. She is quite knowledgable about carriages and equines. Her opinion was that the vehicle is just garbage. Poorly designed, very hard on the small animals because it is not ever balanced. Terrible ride, poorly constructed, not going to hold up as pictured, riding about in fields. Lots of jerking to move it about. Total waste of money to buy.

[Cartfall]

Poor ponies.

[DIYdriver]

Thanks for the great responses. Very much appreciated.
DIY

[horseyfolks]

First let me make sure I have this target painted on my back so no one shoots at me and hits an innocent bystander :eek::lol::cool:.

Why is something so completely condemed because it is different?

I just spent a good part of an hour going over the SC site.... I also took the time to go into the site of Lancaster University and check out their engineering department. I have sent them an e-mail asking what they think of the SC and exactly what part the engineering dept played in designing the SC. If and when I get a reply, I'll let you know.

In the meantime, why is it "poor ponies"? The design of the vehicle keeps the weight over and slightly behind the axle which keeps the weight OFF the pony. One would need to physically lean over the front of the vehicle to add weight on to the pony.

Now Thomas.... I know you, usually more than some on here, resist change. However, how can you say it is rubbish before you have obviously investigated it thoroughly?

Lancaster University is one of the highest ranked institutes of learning in the country. Their engineering dept is highly rated across Europe. Even so, Goodhors, your friend who you say knows much about carriages assumes to know more then said engineering dept by stating

"Poorly designed, very hard on the small animals because it is not ever balanced. Terrible ride, poorly constructed, not going to hold up as pictured, riding about in fields."

I'm pretty sure before she made that statement that she didn't realize the engineering department was instrumental in designing the SC to stand up to not just pony use but also to modern standards for safety and construction in modern MOTOR vehicles.

Renae maybe you should have watched the video and read the entire site before you said

"If you get out of the cart it comes unhitched from the pony "

This is not how the SC works at all. There is a release that will seperate the pony from the SC but it is controlled by the driver and is designed to separate the vehicle and the pony in an emergency. I'll admit, this is an alien concept but it in no way makes it hysterical.

Also, why does using the SC as a forecart to pull appliances with make them poor ponies? The way the vehicle is designed the shafts and traces are horizontal to the ground.. With that line of draught and the appliances attached at the ground level at the rear of the SC the weight of the appliance actually lightens the weight on the pony.

Ok, so its a lot of money. That has nothing to do with the vehicle. We don't know what costs he accepted to get the SC in production and the first few produced. Maybe after he recoups some of the initial startup expenses the cost will go down. Regardless.... the cost has nothing to do with the vehicle.

I am aware that in his musings on his website the author touches on a certain sense of elitism held by the English (or British :)) carriage society toward others around them. As with the cost, his political views have nothing to do with the vehicle.

I know its a human trait to resist change.... ask Sam, she can tell you some stories about dinosaurs and resisting change :yes::cool:. However, just because its different doesnt make it bad.

I know there are some on here that will refuse to consider anything besides their initial reaction :cool:;). Thats OK, but on the other hand I would hope someone would give this little vehicle just a bit more thought.

Don

[War Admiral]

I think the thing that bugs me the most about the web site is the claim that "anyone can do this with ANY animal".

Yeah, right, go right ahead and try... :(

It doesn't look THAT much different than a normal forecart to me but just based on the dangerously misleading advertising claims I would have to give this one a miss.

[horseyfolks]

I agree with that WA... he seems to be assuming that if you are contemplating one of his vehicles you already have a "driving" animal.

While this is misleading it doesn't effect the vehicle.... I think he should concentrate on building vehicles and get someone with pony/driving experience to write his ad copy....

Don

[Thomas_1]

Now Thomas.... I know you, usually more than some on here, resist change. However, how can you say it is rubbish before you have obviously investigated it thoroughly? What an absolute load of tosh! I'm an Engineer by profession and as such have spent a lifetime designing and working with new technology. Then in relation to driving I was the first person EVER to compete with a steel constructed purpose built x country marathon vehicle for horse driving trials in the UK. Designed and built by me! And I patented the first RDA driving vehicle for wheelchair users.

So to put it bluntly, you know nothing about me!

Furthermore I never actually said the vehicle was rubbish I said the content of the web site was.

And here's an example of what I meant:

You step off, 8" back and 8" down, easily, safely and even at speed while retaining full control of the pony, Its no different from stepping off a more conventional vehicle back step. Lets presume the pony is at canter - you step off - no different to stepping off anything that is in forward momentum - its certainly NOT safe and there's no way if you step off and become stationary and the pony is at canter that you have control! Heck you could be dragged through the dirt and over the top of the heap of junk metal you've just fast released from it! Though I note their suggestion is you just let the pony P* off into the distant horizon - VERY safe!!! (NOT)
"Poorly designed, very hard on the small animals because it is not ever balanced. Terrible ride, poorly constructed, not going to hold up as pictured, riding about in fields." And all the above is true and whilst Lancaster University Eneering Department may have been involved in the Engineering design, trust me they're not carriage drivers or equestrian specialists and I well remember their involvement with RDA vehicles was of moderate assistance in terms of ensuring the vehicle would stand the stresses of the work to be undertaken. They have NO expertise assessing the suitability for the horse!

I'm pretty sure before she made that statement that she didn't realize the engineering department was instrumental in designing the SC to stand up to not just pony use but also to modern standards for safety and construction in modern MOTOR vehicles. Well I didn't make the statement but I agree with it totally and I did realise that Lancaster University had a finger in it but NOTE they are not equipped with expertise to assess its suitability for the HORSE.

We don't know what costs he accepted to get the SC in production and the first few produced. Maybe after he recoups some of the initial startup expenses the cost will go down. Regardless.... the cost has nothing to do with the vehicle. Speaking as an Engineer who builds carriages (not as a carriage driver) if that cost more than £50 to design then he was robbed. Heck it could be drawn on an autocad by an apprentice in less than an hour! There is virtually no "start up" expenses. NOTHING on it requires special manufacturing equipment. Its just jerry built and basic steel cutting, fabrication and welding equipment is required. NOTHING special at all. Heck its not even on custom built axles or wheelhubs. Just old rubbish car wheels bought from a scrap yard!

However, just because its different doesnt make it bad. And no one said that was the reason it was bad.

I know there are some on here that will refuse to consider anything besides their initial reaction :cool:;). Thats OK, but on the other hand I would hope someone would give this little vehicle just a bit more thought. o.k. now I've given it further thought, rather than merely saying I won't ever be trying one, I am on consideration prepared to come down on the side of those who suggested it was a heap of shoddy scrap metal and totally inappropriate for some poor beast to drag around. And its being misrepresented.

[MySparrow]

to hear everyone's take on this novel approach to driving. I visited Simon's (pretty sure that's his name) website and corresponded with him for a while a couple of years ago. I was intrigued by his entirely different take on everything -- driving, vehicle, harness. the world, the universe. He was cordial and very willing to share his thoughts and ideas with me, a stranger, and didn't try to sell me anything. He just seemed happy to chat. His ponies always seemed to look happy in harness, and he and the other humans were obviously having a blast.

It was all just part of the information stream for me. There's always something to learn, and since I love this kind of stimulation, I'm always happy to find a source that diverges from the beaten path. Don't have to follow 'em on any kind of permanent basis, but I love seeing where that path goes. And I also find that studying the alternative gives me a clearer understanding of the traditional.

Last spring when my daughter and fellow members of the state youth symphony were putting together a very creditable performance of the challenging Short Ride on a Fast Machine, for example, I learned for the first time what goes into a piece of "modern" music. By extension, I learned a good deal more about music. It doesn't mean I'll ever be a fan of certain kinds of modern composition, but I did come to love that one piece, and I will listen with more appreciation to future work that comes my way, and have a refreshed and deeper ear for the classics I have always loved.

May there always be a saddle charioteer for us to discuss, parse, deconstruct... and learn from! And may there always also be the classicist to give us that solid foundation.

[goodhors]

Thank you Thomas for pointing out the problem with engineers who design, yet don't understand the horse applications item will be used for.

Another terrific example would be the Michigan State University Chariot. School has Spartan mascot, they used to use chariot at football games for marking winning goals with a gallop around the field. New Chariot was designed and built by the MSU Engineering Dept. Yes it did look like a chariot, but about every poor design feature possible was included when they built it. Terribly front-end heavy. Massive wheels and axle, no balance at all. Fiberglas body with the appropriate design to work with the Spartans it was supposed to be carrying. Horses used were pricy Spanish imported Andalusians, donated by an alumni. Harness used was heavy draft, same as the show Belgians use. It just was a bad idea, that only got worse with each idea. Whole thing has since been "retired" because the football stadium was redone with astro-turf and the horses were "too hard on it" during the goal gallops.

I had seen this saddle chariot idea posted a while ago. I really went over the saddle chariot site, looked at his photos, asked questions of knowledgable people who had seen it in action. Concept was different, sometimes you can get new ideas from others.

It just doesn't work as designed, concepts are flawed in their basic ideas. Engineering is not equine friendly. Pictures are cute, but probably just a prepared photo shoot. Happy ponies were not what my friend saw attached to the vehicle, especially by the end of the day at the show.

I saw no give or springs to comfort the ride or attachement to pony. Every movement is a jerk on him. With pivot point of the axle, lurching forward and back with rider weight on extended seat (fulcrum), the whole drive is jolting along into little holes or over bumps of a field. After such a cross-country drive with the stiff frame, smaller, hard wheels, the pony has to be fairly sore after a workout. His harness system doesn't look like it pulls equally over body either. Doesn't look fun for equine at all.

Sorry Don, I stick by my previous opinion. Just not a good piece of design, from the horse side of it.

[Thomas_1]

Thank you Thomas for pointing out the problem with engineers who design, yet don't understand the horse applications item will be used for. My youngest daughter is a Design Engineer but has also spent a lifetime "helping" dad so she does indeed know a lot of the practical applications.

She works mainly designing very fancy glass and stainless steel structures. So she worked on the London Dome and the London Wheel and does those modern glass elevators that go on the outside of buildings and really fancy glass staircases etc.

When she was early in her career she met a bit of prejudice from the fabricators, welders and fitters. Not only because she was a Design Engineer, but good grief A GIRL!! (And a very pretty feminine one at that - I know I'm biased!)

She was called to site by a foreman who accused her of designing something that was impossible to get into to weld. So arrived and was treated with total macho contempt but put her overalls on took the welder and showed the guys how to do the job! And got the uttermost respect after that! Or else they were just too embarrassed to say they couldn't do it! ;) Debbi had been 'helping' me to weld carriages and other things since she was about 3! And learnt to weld properly when she was 13 or 14 when she helped me for real to build a garden ornament with a distinct carriage driving theme. She had the patience and did a heck of a lot of welding on this!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/carriages/gardenornament0004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/carriages/gardenornamentgrown0005.jpg

Lancaster university provide a mutual benefit link service for small businesses who don't have their own resources. And they check the structure and integrity of design work from a safety perspective and using their engineering design students.

[Happy Feet]

I had never heard of this or seen this thing, so I checked out the website. How funny! Horse drawn scooter! Alot of the links didn't work for me so forgive me if the answer is easily found on the website, the first thought was what happens if the pony stops suddenly, are you left hanging on by the reins?

[citydog]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/carriages/gardenornament0004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/flodden_edge/carriages/gardenornamentgrown0005.jpg

Wow!

[Thomas_1]

Wow! Concept of "she who must be obeyed". Designed and built by me. And assisted by my daughters.

Health warning: This was not checked by Lancaster University :winkgrin:

[olehossgal]

I went and looked at the website...now, I don't know diddley-squat about engineering, but I have a LOT of life experience, at my age, and I don't see ANYTHING about that vehicle that looks like a particularly good idea, for either horse OR passenger....and the notion that one could 'step off', and then 'release', a vehicle being pulled by a pony/horse that was "moving on", and maintain control of the animal, is LUDICROUS, to put it politely....Thomas put it EXACTLY right! The 'inventor' of this thing may be a bright guy(?), but it doesn't appear to me that he has a LICK of common sense!
PS-VERY impressive metal sculptures, Thomas--what 'material' was used for the one in the second photo,with multiple figures?)
Regards to all,
Margo
in sunny New Mexico

[Thomas_1]

Its privet hedging .... Susan's idea for a garden ornament and the hedging grew through the wire support frame and was just clipped to shape.

I just followed orders!

[Spanishgreet]

Morning everyone! As this forum has gotten way off track of original topic, I was wanting to visit the saddlechariot again via my self-absorbed approach....just in an effort to join in with everyone else's approach here. Apparently not one forum member whom has posted on this thread has ever used the saddlechariot. That is too bad really, and basically nullifies all arguments against it. I do appreciate that everyone took the time to post, however. I assume everyone has just had too much time on the end of a leadline learning FROM the horse today and so has taken a break to enter comments at this forum.

As I understand it, the saddlechariot is fit exclusively to the horse. The driver is but the by-product of the affair; there to enjoy. I would hope that the many people whom do own and use the saddlechariot for their horses would enter feedback here on this forum for the benefit of those readers whom had not previously known about the saddlechariot. It only seems fair that those with real experience in this area would submit testimony to counter some of the comments made by those who are relying only on their ordinary way of thinking about driving; but again, have no qualifications or experience. "Poor Ponies"? Do any of you really know your ponies?

Several of you have gone to great legnth to prove your qualifications as horsepeople and horse-gaget experts which in general, in any field, makes those of a less base and humbler nature, question your experience. Those whom rely soley (and gratingly speak loudly) on past accomplishments within any normal route would not be interested in anything innovative, enlightened, or FUN....so how do you see fit to judge something that is outside the scope of your comprehension?

I compare it to riding bareback with a rope. We ride the circut here and my young Preliminary jumper tends to get overly excited at the shows; this due primarily to the activity of lots of horses coming and going and being confined for so many hours when at home he is not. The older horses do not have this tendency to overreact and have learned to re-direct those energies toward performance. Anyway, the other week at High Prarie, had taken the Prelim horse out for a jaunt on the trails around there, complete with helmet, leather halter, and a leadrope and after awhile we were tearing along up and down the hills jumping the ditches (which is great combination of fun and fear without a saddle!), and in general, just letting loose. I had hopped off and my horse took a good roll and was just getting back up when along down the trail comes a horse and rider, complete with all tack (including running martingale) and a fully turned out rider. The horse is puffing and foaming and way above the bit jogging nervously and the rider has about 20 lbs. of pressure on that bit and mouth shutter. She rides past, to my horror (her horse was obviously a timebomb because of HER RIDING), looks me up and down, scoffs at my appearance there in shorts by my newly rolled horse, and she tries to purse her lips to smile that "I'm better than you" smile, when her horse takes off, headtossing and then I really saw how high strung she was....a total nervous wreck and totally out of control. Saw her horse go in the Adult Hunter hack class later....big suprise that he did not pin.

The way I figure it, we are always out of control with the horse, whether we have a leg on each side or are sitting in a cart. The only way it REALLY works is to develop the kind of FEEl, TIMING, EMPATHY, and HONESTY that the horse willingly brings to the relationship. Humans, and "horsepeople" in general tend to bypass that in favor of "training" and a whole lot of investment in gadgets, ie:bitting arrangements, saddles, carts, attire, so on. there is certainly the outward apperance of experience in such presentation, but does it really matter that much at the end of the day how much prize money, how many ribbons and trophies, or how much attention one has gained if one's horse has a great distaste for one? Or perhaps the horse is somewhat agreeable to all the nonsense and simply has lack of trust for one....is it all worth it to be able to call oneself "experienced" at the expense of the horse's wellbeing.....mental wellbeing? How many of you whom commented (bashed) the IDEA of the saddlechariot can say your horse would willingly lay down his/her life for you? Who amongst you can say that you do not use underhanded approaches in training and practicing with your horses? How many of you can ride, lunge, drive without any gear at all? How many of you rely on gear to ride, lunge, drive? Who among you have become half horse?

Those among you whom have committed no sins should indeed cast the first stone. Unfortunately, you cast stones without reflection and without EXPERIENCE. You may have driven everyday of your life, started 500 colts, or win a class here and there but that does little to prove anything to the next horse in line. He cares not about your qualifications of experience and even less so about your gadgets and tack. He cares about himself and hopes to find in you a true and righteous leader and friend. He cares not for your attire or lack of; he cares about your way of being, inherent grace, maturity, and wisdom. People with wisdom, horsemen and not, generally do not bash other people and their ideas, ESPECIALLY IF IT BENEFITS THE HORSE.

Like the majority of true saints presently in the world, good horsemen are rarely in the limelight. Many tend to take a lower position and spend a great deal of time helping and learing WITH the horse. The majority of people using the saddlechariot are of that enlightened type. Their horses are generally barefoot, bitless, naturally kept, organically fed, long-lived, HAPPY horses that have brilliant connections with their humans. We need to ask these horses for their reviews of the saddlechariot via translation by their owners whom truly are FOR THE HORSE.

I am a greenie here and will likely not contribute nor waste time on these boards again. I think it would be better to be learning something from my horses rather than massaging my self-gratifying EGO on this forum anymore. Those of you whom prop yourselves up as masters are, in the true masters eyes, novices....because you are blinded by the knots and fetters of your own personal existence and unwilling to reach beyond your own personal limits. At least one person on this forum has broken several rules of engagement as set forth by registration rules for this forum. As he is a more vetern member, surely he will be allowed to continue berating and slanderizing whatever and whomever he wishes. It is no different than the "top-trainer" whom beats his horse in the warm-up ring then goes in for a 8 fault round. Nobody stops him because he can't win anyway. I'd much prefer to be my trainer, warm-up in a bitless cavesson, talk to the horse, go in together and win that grand prix.

So again, thanks to everyone whom posted. Have had several great horsepeople tell me to try the saddlechariot for a couple of my horses...now that I see the other camp, I will be ordering one. By the way, the wire horse sculpture is really an astoundingly complicated, intricate and awesome piece of artwork. If we all only spent that much time with REAL horses.....how much better in our hearts we all would be! Tally ho!:D

[Spanishgreet]

Thomas 1....where did you see the saddlechariot? Did you see it on a horse or just online? Do you know about the RDA aspects of it? Do you know what the British Driving Society has said about it? I assume you are British using phrases like, "load of tosh" and so on. You seem really upset about the saddlechariot design or creator or something so was curious as to if you have lost clients to it or something. Anyway, just curious as to your viewing history of the saddlechariot. Okay, hope you have a great day...and cheer up! It is all in fun anyway. Take care.
Spanishgreet (greenie member in Colorado, US):cool:

[Drive NJ]

Well Spanishgreet
I'll be interested in hearing from someone who has actually tried one of these things

Its not something I'd ever want because it just looks danged uncomfortable (for the rider) to me
but the concept is interesting

I think there is another similar vehicle called the hyperbike. Though I may have mixed up what its features are . . .

Overall the SC reminds me of those huge contractor lawn mowers with the little platform for the mower to stand on that follows the mower deck. They dont look comfortable to me either, but lots of people use them?!?

[Dreamerandmaz]

OMG, that is histarical! If you get out of the cart it comes unhitched from the pony, thats great so you hop out of the cart and abandon the pony and the vehicle flies free from him and scraes him half to death. And then they show this ill-designed item being used as a forecart. Poor ponies!

Sorry Renae but you are sooooooo wrong in your perception of this :lol: I could have picked out quotes from many of the posts on here, but as the safety feature is such a unique part of the Saddle Chariot I highlighted your post, no offence I hope :winkgrin:

My using a Saddle Chariot revolves around my beloved American Dream, who is a failed trotter, sold on from one trainer to the next, each of whom had another training style that would teach him to pace, then one that decided he was a trotter, then he was a pacer again and so on, he came to me as a totally nuerotic bag of bones, I was told he would never drive/race as he took hold of the bit and became uncontrollable, he also pulled like a train:eek:

Dispite all of this my heart went out to him, he was sad, depressed and had a hopeless look in his eye, I took him home and began to retrain him to the saddle, the first part of this was to remove the bit from his mouth - nothing to lean on - and to use Western style training, to start to get him to move his feet and think like a horse. 18 months on I have an awesome riding horse, the final part of his re education was to re introduce him to driving :) Which is where I had the great fortune to meet Simon of the Saddle Chariot :D

Most of what I do with Dreamer is off road, we do miles of riding, training for endurance, most of this riding is done alone, just my horse and me, I needed a Cart/Carriage that would enable me to drive the way I rode, I saw the Saddle Chariot and thought it would fit the purpose.

I contacted him and he spent a lot of time asking pertinent questions about my horse and myself, then without asking for any financial reward, he arranged to come 300 miles to look at Dreamer and to try him in a Saddle Chariot. Simon spent all day at my yard, teaching me the harnessing and the safety aspects, working with Dreamer, he then left me with a Chariot to practise with.

The Chariot is very much non BHS, there is no bit used, no blinkers, no crupper, no whips, about as far from 'traditional' driving as you can get, the built in safety does mean I can go out alone You have to remember the preditor/prey thinking aspect of the horse, a horse will run if it is panicked then chased, remove the object chasing it and it will stop running and turn to face the preditor - the Carriage :) Dreamer has gone from being uncontrollable in a driving situation, to being calm, quiet and responsible. I can remove the chariot at speed and Dreamer stops and turns to face me, the Chariot is easy to move around, its balanced, it is robust, it does go off road, in short it does exactely what it says on the tin:eek:

Simon is a modest kinda bloke, dont believe all you read on his web site, he knows a lot more about horses that he pretends to, the University may not know what a horse needs, but Simon does, working together I believe they have designed the next generation of driving Chariot.

Finally, lets let the Horse have the final say. It took two men to hold Dreamer whilst they put him in the racing sulky as well as a blindfold, he stands relaxed in my yard, no one holds him, I attach the Saddle Chariot on my own without him being head tied, that I think speaks for itself.

Maz

[Thomas_1]

Apparently not one forum member whom has posted on this thread has ever used the saddlechariot. That is too bad really, and basically nullifies all arguments against it. I've never tried flying by strapping 2 wings to my arms but I know that doesn't work and is a bad idea too

As I understand it, I notice you're new to COTH and have never posted before. So first of all hello and welcome

Perhaps you could introduce yourself and in particular let us know what your experience and knowledge is pertaining to engineering, driving and driving horses and carriages in particular. And so I can evaluate the worth and value of your opinion.

It only seems fair that those with real experience in this area would submit testimony to counter some of the comments made by those who are relying only on their ordinary way of thinking about driving; but again, have no qualifications or experience. "Poor Ponies"? Do any of you really know your ponies? Unlike yourself, I don't post behind the cloak of anonymity and I do indeed have breadth and depth of experience and qualification. As do many others on this forum and some of who have made comment on this thread. I don't know you from Adam and judge you only by the posting you've only just made.

Several of you have gone to great legnth to prove your qualifications as horsepeople and horse-gaget experts which in general, in any field, makes those of a less base and humbler nature, question your experience. Those whom rely soley (and gratingly speak loudly) on past accomplishments within any normal route would not be interested in anything innovative, enlightened, or FUN....so how do you see fit to judge something that is outside the scope of your comprehension? Is there supposed to be some logic or sense in this? Because if there is, then I'm dashed if I can see or understand the perversity of it!

I compare it to riding bareback with a rope.......... etc etc etc etc Interesting..... But to be fair, what I really mean is "no comparison whatsoever and nothing at all to do with driving a pony and indeed what I'm really thinking is "what on earth is this poster talking about! "

How many of you whom commented (bashed) the IDEA of the saddlechariot can say your horse would willingly lay down his/her life for you? Who amongst you can say that you do not use underhanded approaches in training and practicing with your horses? How many of you can ride, lunge, drive without any gear at all? How many of you rely on gear to ride, lunge, drive? Who among you have become half horse? Erm... are you real? Are you serious? What are you smoking?

You may have driven everyday of your life, started 500 colts, or win a class here and there but that does little to prove anything to the next horse in line. mmm interesting.... not true of course but wel erm... interesting.

People with wisdom, horsemen and not, generally do not bash other people and their ideas, ESPECIALLY IF IT BENEFITS THE HORSE

Well IMO you probably need to get out more and come to appreciate that horse people are ordinarily opinionated and convinced that their way is the right way.

However the critical comments about this particular lump of scrap metal are all focussed on detriment to the horse and so far no experienced driver is persuaded there's any benefit whatsoever.

The majority of people using the saddlechariot are of that enlightened type. Their horses are generally barefoot, bitless, naturally kept, organically fed, long-lived, HAPPY horses that have brilliant connections with their humans. We need to ask these horses for their reviews of the saddlechariot via translation by their owners whom truly are FOR THE HORSE. yeh...... right.... so I've got the picture: they're a bunch of folks on the lunatic fringes ??

I am a greenie here and will likely not contribute nor waste time on these boards again. I think it would be better to be learning something from my horses rather than massaging my self-gratifying EGO on this forum anymore. Well I'll try my very best to cope without the benefit of your further wisdom and contribution.

I thought this video was particularly interesting. The stick the guy waves at random over the top of the horse is presumably some sort of natural and empathethic saddle chariot aid that us mere ignorant carriage drivers wouldn't understand?? And likewise the waving hands and pulling arms up and back to lever on the horse would also be some sort of fantastic natural happy way to drive a horse?

http://www.clipshack.com/Clip.aspx?key=F271BBF04247BBF3

By the way, the wire horse sculpture is really an astoundingly complicated, intricate and awesome piece of artwork. If we all only spent that much time with REAL horses.....how much better in our hearts we all would be! Tally ho!:D Thank you.... it didn't take that long to do either :winkgrin:

you seem really upset about the saddlechariot design or creator or something so was curious as to if you have lost clients to it or something. Not at all. I've been around long enough to have become pretty used to seeing folks do daft things with horses and I'm very familiar with basic engineering and steel fabrication and scrap metal. Its not the market sector I'm in though.

[hitchinmygetalong]

I think the tires/wheels are too small. :)

[Dreamerandmaz]

However the critical comments about this particular lump of scrap metal are all focussed on detriment to the horse and so far no experienced driver is persuaded there's any benefit whatsoever.

Hiya Thomas

I seem to have jumped into the middle of an argument here :confused: regarding the above quote, there has been no detriment to my horse whatsoever, in fact he has benefitted from being introduced to the Saddle Chariot :)

yeh...... right.... so I've got the picture: they're a bunch of folks on the lunatic fringes ??

ermmmm, as a middle aged woman, Im not on the lunatic fringe. I try to take all I learned from the BHS, mix it in with the American style of training, add a good dose of seeing things from the horses point of view and come up with an individual training plan for each horse I work with. As with humans, all horses are different, 1 size doesnt fit all.



I thought this video was particularly interesting. The stick the guy waves at random over the top of the horse is presumably some sort of natural and empathethic saddle chariot aid that us mere ignorant carriage drivers wouldn't understand?? And likewise the waving hands and pulling arms up and back to lever on the horse would also be some sort of fantastic natural happy way to drive a horse?

I must have had a senior moment when I watched the video:yes: I didnt see any stick, waving hands or pulling up of arms, :confused: I did see a man driving a pony in a chariot, balancing himself without jagging at his pony's mouth :yes:

Not at all. I've been around long enough to have become pretty used to seeing folks do daft things with horses and I'm very familiar with basic engineering and steel fabrication and scrap metal. Its not the market sector I'm in though.[/QUOTE]

Ive been around a long time too :sigh: a lot of things change, mostly for the better as we grow in our knowledge of the horse, we have to remember that horses have been around a lot longer than we have, they didnt ask to enter our world and in all the years we have been interacting with them, the horse hasnt changed one bit, it is still the most honest and innocent creature we interact with.

Driving has changed, again I would like to think for the better, the Chariot is a new idea, one day this argument will be looked at in amazement as the Saddle Chariot will be of the people and driving will become accessible to everyone.

Ooooops, before I forget to mention it yet again, the Chariot does not cost 'thousands' :)

Best regards

Maz

[Dreamerandmaz]

I think the tires/wheels are too small. :)

Hiya

I think the tyres and wheels are the size they need to be, they take me off road, over all kinds of terrain, rocks, sand, mud, grass and so on. They carry me on the road, all done in safety behind a happy, balanced, carefree horse.

Bet deep down inside there is a small part of you that is dying to have a go :winkgrin:

Maz

[hitchinmygetalong]

Hiya

I think the tyres and wheels are the size they need to be, they take me off road, over all kinds of terrain, rocks, sand, mud, grass and so on. They carry me on the road, all done in safety behind a happy, balanced, carefree horse.

Bet deep down inside there is a small part of you that is dying to have a go :winkgrin:

Maz

Hiya to you!

Do you have any video of this thing being pulled by a horse?

[Spanishgreet]

Thanks to everyone whom read my post here. Contrary to what some may believe, I am not all that clandestine, nor am I high:lol:. I have made a life amongst horses and am fairly normal considering:D.
I do think that these pages on the saddlechariot are tending to echo quite a bit of the current worldwide discussion regarding how best to understand and work with horses.
I agree that there is no one perscription for all horses. There are some pieces of equiptment that I think should be outlawed....like serrata chain nosebands, for instance.
I do think that any piece of equipment, as long as it fits the particular horse, can be used in matured hands.
I can lunge, ride, and drive horses (practically any horse with the exception of two chicken hearts and one true rogue so far!) without any gear. I can also boot, bit, braid, harness, and shoe my horses, as well as attire myself for the showring and have done fairly well over the years in that regard.

I believe that a change very much arrived. Collectively, many people are heading in new directions with their horses in terms of training, testing, and using non-traditional tack and gear. In general, this appears to have greatly benefitted a great many horses and throughly rehabilitated many. This is wonderful for the horse!
I do stick by my earlier assertation that gear and tack, including carriages and carts, are only as helpful or harmful as the human using them. There seems to be a great interest amongst horsepeople whom, whether currently or in past times, EDUCATED rather than TRAINED the horse. My experience, as I would wish to share it at this time, would be that I have had great success with all horses whom have been educated in a non-manipulative way. These are the types of horses whom regardless of breeding, confirmation, or past history, will absoultely burst their hearts for the rider or driver and so tend to consistently give brillant performances. We, as "trainers" should remember that the bringing about of the backyard horse is just as interesting and fulfilling as bringing along the world-beater. A good many people whom I know here whom have brought along their own personal horse from start to finish, seem to have something magical between them and the horse. It is as if they have uncovered the grail or something...really amazing.
If the saddlechariot, as a tool, is helping so many horses and their humans, why deny it credit? Because a more classical horseman would avoid it does not mean that the saddlechariot is not in theory, design, or application, a fine piece of eqipment. It simply means one chooses not to use it. Again, my concern is not about the STYLE OR TRADITION of equipment.....rather, my concern is for the horse. I think visitors to this page will be able to judge for themselves...... based not only on the comments here but also on the tone and temperment of the posters.....about the possibility that the saddlechariot seems to be making its way into more compassionate, pro-horse hands opposed to those whom may have a great deal of experience, but sadly little understanding of the horse. I make this argument based on that which I threw out about lungeing, riding, driving without any tack at all.....it is only unbelievable to those who cannot do it. It cannot be done only by those whom are unable to let go of control and really feel toward the horse. Of course it takes HUGE amounts of time and effort to get to that place.....time and effort in one's heart and mind and a lot of sleepless nights contemplating how better to help the horse find the way tomorrow. It is the practioners path. For another, it may be more suitable to their particular disposition to follow the path of study, the path of technique, the classical teachings. I think all good horsepeople have something to offer and teach; as do all horses.
I don't want to fight here. I posted out of concern that people reading here whom had not heard of the saddlechariot would be misled by comments that are inappropriate and slanderizing. I have not tried the saddlechariot myself but have heard great things about it. I am hoping to be able to order one sometime soon to try for myself and so would write again, at that time, if this page is continued. It is not expensive for a cart! It is cheaper than my training cart and much, much less than my Coyatix cart.....I am not a carriage driver, okay?! That is all in fun for me. I ride jumpers and have for over 25 years.
Hopefully.....no hard feelings and do hope others will post here regarding their experience with the saddlechariot. I would hope to avoid calling people whom tend to their horses very well, "lunatics". If that got out on more forums or bulletins...that could generate a lot of upset! Be careful! We are not here to injure one another! Besides, that is the new wave of horsemanship on the world! It is bigger than us! It is for the horse.

Take care, everyone. Best wishes and all good luck.:)

[Dreamerandmaz]

Hiya to you!

Do you have any video of this thing being pulled by a horse?

Wow a friendly response, thank you soooooo much :cool:

I dont do teccy thingies, being a girly n all that, all I can say is that my boy is 15.2 and he does fantastic in it, Im over the moon at the change in his attitude towards driving, I watched him racing before I bought him, his whole demeanor was one of frantic fear and nowhere to run :no:

We live on a hill farm in North Wales where we breed Shire horses. The long term plan is to use the Saddle Chariots with agricultural attachments to manage the 60 acres we have. Many of our fields have horrendous slopes,:eek: very good for horses but not good for tractors. Simon has designed Bracken crushers, harrows, seed sowers and other implements that can be attached to the Chariot and used, [B][again safely,/B] over terrain such as ours. 2 of our Shires will be trained to pull the Chariots.

As a penny pinching farmer, they are a lot more cost effective than the modern implements :D

Simon is very approachable, Im sure if you ask him, he will have a video tucked away somewhere, however, his original idea was to give a useful life to the thousands of small ponies, whose lives are just to sit in a field doing nothing. The saddle chariot gives them something to do :)

[hitchinmygetalong]

Well, I'm happy to hear you are pleased with this product. It is *quite* different from anything I have ever seen and I have found this thread to be very interesting reading.

[Thomas_1]

I must have had a senior moment when I watched the video:yes: I didnt see any stick, waving hands or pulling up of arms, :confused: I did see a man driving a pony in a chariot, balancing himself without jagging at his pony's mouth :yes:
In the first guy's right hand and his arms are way up in the air and wide at 6 to 9 seconds. There's a heck of a lot of play and leverage on the pony's mouth there.

Girl in the lilac jacket at 40 seconds lifts hands and slaps the reins on the pony's backside..... interesting technique :eek: The observer says "do you want to step off now" and she does and whoops all over the place and a lovely example of why its not that easy to step off a moving object onto terra firma.

Albeit the pony is desperate to stop and is only going VERY slow.

And there's a load of videos for those who want to watch them on here:

http://www.clipshack.com/UserInfo.aspx?id=9027

[RidesAHaflinger]

What is the purpose of having the cart disengage from the horse? And does it ever malfunction and disengage when it's not supposed to? :eek: Just guessing here, but is that supposed to be a safety feature? As in: horse begins to run away, buck, kick, rear, or otherwise object, so I can reach down and just unhitch him and let him get away from the source of his misbehavior? Is that feature promoted as being something that would be useful in lieu of the lengthy, patient training that most of us do with our driving horses to teach them not to misbehave in harness? Sorry, I haven't studied the website because I'm not really interested in the vehicle. Just hoping someone in the know can give me the summary version of why this would be a good feature to have in a vehicle.:confused:

[Dreamerandmaz]

In the first guy's right hand and his arms are way up in the air and wide at 6 to 9 seconds. There's a heck of a lot of play and leverage on the pony's mouth there.

Girl in the lilac jacket at 40 seconds lifts hands and slaps the reins on the pony's backside..... interesting technique :eek: The observer says "do you want to step off now" and she does and whoops all over the place and a lovely example of why its not that easy to step off a moving object onto terra firma.

Albeit the pony is desperate to stop and is only going VERY slow.

And there's a load of videos for those who want to watch them on here:

http://www.clipshack.com/UserInfo.aspx?id=9027

Thomas

I would just like to point out that the pony is bitless :confused: Having met Henry, I can tell you that he wasnt desperate to stop :lol: He is actually trained to stop when someone steps off the back, something Im training my horse to do, its actually very simple and they pick it up very quickly :yes: As for slapping the rump with the reins, thats a very old fashioned way of sending a horse forward in a cart, as well used as clicking to it.

I think the whole board knows that your dead set against the Chariot, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it, I think, as a mature man, having made your point(s) you should now allow someone who has a Chariot and has found it to be of benefit, to tell interested parties about it, without then having to defend every thing they say.

Lets agree to disagree, I wont disparage traditional carriage driving or tell tales of how horses are 'trained' if you leave me to tell others about the Saddle Chariot if they ask a question. :)

Best regards

Maz

[Dreamerandmaz]

What is the purpose of having the cart disengage from the horse? And does it ever malfunction and disengage when it's not supposed to? :eek: Just guessing here, but is that supposed to be a safety feature? As in: horse begins to run away, buck, kick, rear, or otherwise object, so I can reach down and just unhitch him and let him get away from the source of his misbehavior?

Yep thats exactly what it is used for and no it hasnt ever disengaed or malfunctioned as it takes a very definate movement to engage the disengage :lol:

Is that feature promoted as being something that would be useful in lieu of the lengthy, patient training that most of us do with our driving horses to teach them not to misbehave in harness?

There we have the difference in thinking. Not only is the Chariot different, but the thought regarding the training is different too. We dont train our horses not to misbehave, we train our horses to understand that there is nothing to fear from the Chariot. There is no bit, therefore nothing jagging on their mouths, there are no blinkers, they have full vision, there is no crupper, therefore nothing dragging their tails, there is no whip to make them run faster, in short, there is nothing for the horse to fear from the Chariot. However, horses are 600llb chickens, please refer to my previous post regarding the preditor/prey scenario and how the Chariot addresses this.

Sorry, I haven't studied the website because I'm not really interested in the vehicle. Just hoping someone in the know can give me the summary version of why this would be a good feature to have in a vehicle.:confused:

May I suggest that you read previous posts where this has been explained, I understand you not watching the Video(s) but I dont understand you not reading the various views and then commenting :confused:

My abject apologies if you have read them and didnt understand, I hope I have managed to clear a few issues for you :)

Best regards Maz

[RidesAHaflinger]

May I suggest that you read previous posts where this has been explained, I understand you not watching the Video(s) but I dont understand you not reading the various views and then commenting :confused:

My abject apologies if you have read them and didnt understand, I hope I have managed to clear a few issues for you :)

Best regards Maz

I've read the posts, watched the videos and still don't understand why I'd want to bail off my vehicle and disengage it from my horse. But if it works for you, great. :yes:

Just for the record, though, my horses are quite comfortable in their blinkers and cruppers. There is nothing inherently evil about a well-fitting traditional harness. Furthermore, my horses are trained to respond to voice commands. They understand and respond to verbal commands for walk, trot, canter as well as left and right. They *want* to go forward because (1) they're trained that way and (2) they enjoy their job. :winkgrin: Like most well-trained driving horses, mine understand that the whip is there to provide instruction - a tap here or there tells them the direction of the bend. They have no fear of the whip whatsoever. The whip is never use punitively by a good driver.

I wish you all the best with your driving endeavors. It's nice that you're happy with your choice of equipment even if you might not be getting the reception or enthusiasm about it that you'd like to see. I think this is where the phrase "to each his own" comes in. :lol:

[MySparrow]

I can well vouch that Haffie's boys are happy, playful, obedient, hardworking driving horses with a great work ethic and such delightful, outgoing personalities that my husband was utterly smitten. Driving with them was a delight, though both are young.

I wonder if Simon would be willing to join us and let us know what inspired his thinking with the chariot?

[Dreamerandmaz]

I've read the posts, watched the videos and still don't understand why I'd want to bail off my vehicle and disengage it from my horse. But if it works for you, great. :yes:

Just for the record, though, my horses are quite comfortable in their blinkers and cruppers. There is nothing inherently evil about a well-fitting traditional harness. Furthermore, my horses are trained to respond to voice commands. They understand and respond to verbal commands for walk, trot, canter as well as left and right. They *want* to go forward because (1) they're trained that way and (2) they enjoy their job. :winkgrin: Like most well-trained driving horses, mine understand that the whip is there to provide instruction - a tap here or there tells them the direction of the bend. They have no fear of the whip whatsoever. The whip is never use punitively by a good driver.

I wish you all the best with your driving endeavors. It's nice that you're happy with your choice of equipment even if you might not be getting the reception or enthusiasm about it that you'd like to see. I think this is where the phrase "to each his own" comes in. :lol:

I sooooo agree with you :) In the Chariot I see the 'alternative', perhaps what some would call the tree hugging minority, unfortunately Im too old to be a rebel, but I do like to keep an open mind.

Traditional driving doesnt suit me anymore, I want to be able to harness up and shoot down to the local feed merchant, I want to be able to open gates, get through and close them, I want to be able to use my Chariot as others would use their cars, to me the Chariot is a way of life, not just a hobby and I find Im using it more and more in place of the 4x4 I normally drive.

I like the voice commands, my Dreamer (named for the horse I hoped he would become, not the horse I bought :yes:)responds well to the voice, I dont need the whip to aid the bend.

I think above all that the Chariot is fun, it appeals to young and old equally, its safe to use and can be used in everyday situations.

Memo to self* Ask Simon if he can design a supermarket trolley :eek::winkgrin: Now that would raise a storm :lol:

[Dreamerandmaz]

I can well vouch that Haffie's boys are happy, playful, obedient, hardworking driving horses with a great work ethic and such delightful, outgoing personalities that my husband was utterly smitten. Driving with them was a delight, though both are young.

I wonder if Simon would be willing to join us and let us know what inspired his thinking with the chariot?

I like to hear of happy horses :yes: Im sure the driving fraternity has as many horror stories attached to it as any other sport that uses horses, I know here in the UK there are drivers 'known' for their dodgy training methods.

I havent brought this forum to Simons attention, I only found it because I googled Chariot in a moment of madness, the posts that disparaged the Chariot, by people with no experience of them, stirred me into joining, even though this is a US based forum?

To me its a bit like going back in time when people decried the train, saying that people would die if they travelled by train as it would go so fast they would suffocate :confused: We now know that all of that was nonsense, much the same as a lot of what has been said against the Chariot:yes:

A lot of the anti movement is more about the class system in England, than whether the Chariot is a good design, over here the old class system is still in place in a lot of equine pursuits and God forbid that the ordinary people find something that will allow them to become horse owners :eek: Their places are as lowly grooms :yes::winkgrin: after all, if all us lower class people get a Chariot, who is going to sit as groom for all the posh drivers and run around n fetch n carry for them :D

Got to go, farm to run, horses to see to, Chariot to drive :D

[Simon Saddlechariot Mulholland]

One of the great pleasures of the web and the various fora, is the opportunity for informed discussion to operate around the globe. I am the inventor of the Saddlechariot and I will follow Thomas 1 in mentioning my eldest daughter of whom I am very proud. When she read the first page of this forum she was reduced to tears by the lies Thomas 1 chose to tell about my work.
She has subsequently been enormously cheered by the people who are prepared to support, or at least look at something new, but on behalf of a number of people I have to answer the lies. Tony, at Camelion Architectural Metalwork in Birmingham is a very skilled welder who takes enormous pride in his work.
Thomas's comments on the steelwork are as follows.
“I can't think why as it would only cost about £100 maximum to build
Its just jerry built”
“its not even on custom built axles or wheelhubs. Just old rubbish car wheels bought from a scrap yard!”
“I am on consideration prepared to come down on the side of those who suggested it was a heap of shoddy scrap metal”
“However the critical comments about this particular lump of scrap metal are all focussed on detriment to the horse and so far no experienced driver is persuaded there's any benefit whatsoever.”
“I've been around long enough to have become pretty used to seeing folks do daft things with horses and I'm very familiar with basic engineering and steel fabrication and scrap metal. Its not the market sector I'm in though.”

It is clear from Thomas 1's statement about “old rubbish car wheels bought from a scrapyard” that he has never seen the Saddlechariot as this is a complete lie. On the basis of never looking at the vehicle, I do not think he is competent to assess anything else, especially not a precision engineered, TIG welded, modular stainless steel structure accepting a range of stub axle assemblies. Thomas 1 needs to apologise for his insults to Tony and Steve and all the other guys at Camelion.

Lancaster University Product Development Unit is one of those really good ideas to help startup businesses. It gives people like me access to serious engineers, computer programmers or whatever. Stuart Taylor and Dr Allan Rennie have put in a serious amount of work on ensuring the Saddlechariot is as safe as possible. Not only did they assess the vehicle as it was in December 2005 but they helped me upgrade it to the vehicle it is in August 2007. The first day we met, they came out and drove Hnery in the saddlechariot round the field as I considered it imperative they understood how the saddlechariot relates to the pony. They also wanted to have some fun and were both cantering inside a minute.
This is what Thomas 1 says about Lancaster University.

Quote:
"Poorly designed, very hard on the small animals because it is not ever balanced. Terrible ride, poorly constructed, not going to hold up as pictured, riding about in fields."
"And all the above is true and whilst Lancaster University Engeering Department may have been involved in the Engineering design, trust me they're not carriage drivers or equestrian specialists and I well remember their involvement with RDA vehicles was of moderate assistance in terms of ensuring the vehicle would stand the stresses of the work to be undertaken. They have NO expertise assessing the suitability for the horse!"
*******************************
"Speaking as an Engineer who builds carriages (not as a carriage driver) if that cost more than £50 to design then he was robbed. Heck, it could be drawn on an autocad by an apprentice in less than an hour! "
***********************************
"Lancaster university provide a mutual benefit link service for small businesses who don't have their own resources. And they check the structure and integrity of design work from a safety perspective and using their engineering design students. "

***************************
"Concept of "she who must be obeyed". Designed and built by me. And assisted by my daughters.

Health warning: This was not checked by Lancaster University "
*********************************

The statement that “They have NO expertise assessing the suitability for the horse!” is odd if the RDA have already used them to look at horse drawn vehicles. Did they really learn nothing from the experience?
From the start Allan and Stuart made it clear they were not horsemen although any engineer is used to working with the concept of a human-animal/machine interface, it is called ergonomics. The weight on the saddle is a straight engineering assessment, as is the pull on the traces and breeching. Even a child can assess that pointed or sharp bits are best kept out of harms way. So Stuart performed all his engineering work in the knowledge of exactly how and where it would interface with the pony, and this was a pony he had met and driven.
Because Stuart was concerned that there were areas where he was ignorant, I made an appointment to show the vehicle and harness in action to our vet at Frame Swift and Partners. They could see no problems.

I have to revert to a quote by Thomas 1 that I have used earlier,
“However the critical comments about this particular lump of scrap metal are all focussed on detriment to the horse and so far no experienced driver is persuaded there's any benefit whatsoever.”

Thomas 1 is saying that there is detriment to the horse, and a vet can't pick this up. The Saddlechariot has demonstrated for four years at the Royal Cornwall Show. Do they really put cruel vehicles on display more than once? The Princess Royal met us at the Royal Cornwall Show and spent some time discussing the design features, especially the use of sailing technology. I have demonstrated the vehicle, before the latest modifications to George Bowman at his yard in Penrith.
I think Thomas 1 really needs some evidence to support his assertions and if he cannot support them he should apologise to all concerned, not least to those who come to Chronicle forums to learn.
Simon
ps I will be back to discuss other points with all the others who have commented, but this particular series of comments needed addressing as a single issue.

[kearleydk]

I'll join Don with the target on my back too. I'm ahead of most on the this discussion as I have actually met Simon and seen a SC in action.

Simon spent a whole day at the International Caspian Society meeting at Castle Bytham back a couple of years ago. He is a nice guy and definately NOT an idiot.

The SC is definately an "alternative" vehicle. I would never consider for my primary vehicle. IMO it is a special use machine. It certainly was not hard on the little mare we hitched up to it and it appeared to be fun to drive. It seemed sort of like a go cart to me. Unfortunately only Simon drove it because the mare was totally green so I didn't get first hand experience.

If you want a quick, easy, fun, little vehicle I would consider it.

don't pass it up because it is "different."

Dick

[goodhors]

Simon, some of the comments you credited Thomas with, were mine. He reused them in his reply.

The original poster asked for opinions on the vehicle. We all contributed our personal opinion, with secondary comments for the opinions we had. OP now has a variety of opinions to read thru, make choices with.

Any vehicle created has those who love it, those who hate it, others who are on the fence, but willing to learn why others have such opinions or decided the way they did. Those fence sitters may take the chance to use or try the vehicle under discussion if it is available. Certainly I belive that many would go to watch a demo, myself included, but it may not change their thinking.

There are other vehicles that I don't care for, but they work perfectly for folks who use their horses differently than I do. Other vehicles which have poor balance, not really safe designs, can be hard on a horse in certain uses, still quite popular with many people. If they ask for my opinion I will give it, but certainly not force them to change.

Chariot technology is really not new, started way back when they used chariots to conquer ancient Egypt. Then it was the most advanced war technology available. Chariot design has inherent problems, sitting or standing, with constant balance changes against horse/harness being key among them. There is a REASON why carriages CHANGED as we learned more, advanced in design. The only chariots being used much anymore are on the chariot racing circut out west. They are used with pairs of horses, usually quarter mile or less. Homemande to a standard of rules, for the competition. Very limited circut.

If someone wants to get one of these Saddle Chariots, fine. Just let them purchase it knowing there are major differences from any other kind of carriages available, 2 or 4 wheeled. Also let them be informed of the possible problems with departing from traditional driving harness, no blinkers and no bit. Every horse is not the ponies shown in the tapes. You are not the driver, trainer, demonstrating in the video. They may be VERY good, way beyond your skill levels. All children are not equal with a pony.
Just because you love your horse/pony, doesn't mean they won't react badly, in a stress situation, even with many driving miles on them . You may be able to muscle a very small equine, like those shown in video, prevent a problem. Larger ponies and horses will just laugh at your attempts and keep going. Do you drop the vehicle and hope to find them later? I have not heard of much success with bitless bridles out driving, over long usage time. Bitless, loose contact with reins may prevent ripping on his mouth, but also prevents steady contact to give equine confidence from driver.

Again, there are always new, radical designs, ideas coming forward. They make a big splash, then poorer ones disappear. A person is entitled to make and sell a product, as are people entitled to critisize it. Works both ways. The potential user makes their choices. The unsuccessful designs are only used for a short time, get sold on, junked out.

My opinions are mine, derived from my past experiences, information I have learned. Those opinions were what I posted. Yep, they happen to run along the same lines as Thomas. Watching the videos didn't change my opinions, though I don't consider myself rigidly closed to new ideas. I am always trying to learn more.. Just that these photos, videos, testimonials don't do it. Certainly would be willing to watch a live demo for better details.

[Spanishgreet]

Hey....can't stay away! Ahhhh well. Don't think this would fit anywhere so even though is off subject of Saddlechariot, decided to post here.
Like Goodhorse had said from experience I have noticed that horses whom were seasoned carriage horses seemed to do okay with a bitless bridle for a time but preferred back to the bit eventually.
Now, as Thomas 1 asked me of my carriage driving experience, I have pitiful little and have never shown as an adult. I do drive a Percheron, Percheron/Andalusian cross, and ancient Minature horse regularly on the roads and fields here. The mini goes in a bit not because he needs one, but seems to prefer it and as he does not venture out for long and I'd prefer him NOT to eat the lush grass, the bit works fine.....he's happy and has a soft mouth and really picks up the bit. Is his only form of "dressage" expression as he is quite inclined and so I think the bit just polishes the experience of driving for him. He is always happy to go out for a drive and very friendly with me upon returning home.
The Percheron is five and goes in a straight headstall with English jumping cavesson noseband. He's never had a bit in his mouth. He's my off road riding and driving horse and we just go and go. He's very attentive and I've never had to pull on him to stop a bolt. Like the bitless option for him so I can let him eat without getting out of the cart if we go out for half the day or more. The PErch/Andalusian really needed some stop because he had so much athletic energy when he started with a cart as a 3 year old youngster before he could be backed. He has very big movement and just now at seven years is less explosive in the canter and becoming very contained. He goes in a german LG bitless bridle and depending on where we are driving, I sometimes attach the short shanks to the wheel piece. I would HIGHLY recommend this bridle to anyone wanting to drive bitless. I would HIGHLY recommend staying away from a cross under bitless bridle and using caution when selecting more of a sidepull variety. It is one thing to ride in a soft sidepull....another thing to drive in one when the action of it does not in any way directly correspond to driving.......just pointing it out as the English hack noseband really is a sidepull and works great with the 1,750 lb, very fit and energetic Percheron.

All these horses drive open without side or overcheck.

Glad the Saddlechariot creator responded to this thread. Wonder where has Thomas 1 gone? I read his posts for a long time before I actually joined to write in....he writes a lot USUALLY. Thomas 1, where are you? Enjoying your horses, I hope. Thanks.

[Simon Saddlechariot Mulholland]

A friend in the UK has seen it in action. She is quite knowledgable about carriages and equines. Her opinion was that the vehicle is just garbage. Poorly designed, very hard on the small animals because it is not ever balanced. Terrible ride, poorly constructed, not going to hold up as pictured, riding about in fields. Lots of jerking to move it about. Total waste of money to buy.

Goodhorse, I didn't respond to this because it is anonymous, third party criticism.

Thomas 1 chose to use it in his comments on Lancaster University and the workmanship in my saddlechariots. He also added specific statements of his own which I have refuted. I detailed these in my previous post and I have given names of vets, engineers, skilled craftsmen and carriage drivers and horsemen. You give me one anonymous "witness" so there isn't really much I can say. However Lancaster University very specifically looked at the strength and it is designed, not just for mucking about on fields but to be seriously hammered flat out cross country. That is why I went to professional engineers. My vet and numerous others will accept that the balance is at least as good as any two wheeler. The ride is brilliant, I have beginners cantering in minutes cross country.


Of your latest comments, if you read my site you would see the section on chariot history from Sumer and Akkad onwards. I understand where the chariot came from and I know where the saddlechariot is going, two very different things.

I emphasise throughout my site that this is not carriage driving, why do you need to remind people of something I spend most of my time saying.

You say I am not the driver/trainer demonstrating in the video..who is?
Apart from Chris Cook and Sam with the mountainboard, and Chris Cook is a real horseman (so is Sam), it is mostly friends and family, me, my daughters, my niece and nephew. My wife trained Henry and a number of horse experts including Lucinda McAlpine have commented how much Henry enjoys his driving. One of the people in the videos has Cerebral palsy.

You would like to see it, I will try to get over and demonstrate as I am always happy to show the saddlechariot to anyone.

And thanks a bunch Kearleydk, you may have meant well but telling everyone I drove a green animal I had never met before into the ring at the Caspian Show rather contradicts your kind attempt to convince people I am not an idiot, but then it does prove I don't assume everyone has a driving animal. I work most of the time with green animals, and put a 4 year old Parelli trained animal in a saddlechariot within an hour. But then the lunatic fringes can train their animals to accept new things
Simon

[goodhors]

Simon, maybe the posts need more careful reading before responding. I say exactly what I mean, no trick wording. I may phrase it badly sometimes, like the below comments. I meant the YOU's as in anyperson who could be reading, might want to drive like the video. Not meant as Simon-the-person is not the driver. Could be Michael Freund-World Champion with the reins, hired for the video. Kids could be top rated Pony Club grads. No one can tell driver knowledge or skills by looking at the video. A person with good skills can make ANYTHING look simple and easy to do. I will be more careful on my phrasing.

"You are not the driver, trainer, demonstrating in the video. They may be VERY good, way beyond your skill levels. All children are not equal with a pony."

Just because someone sees a video showing an equine doing something, doesn't mean VIEWER should try that exact same thing. Viewer don't know how things went to get the pictures or what happened AFTER the camera was off.

I used my friend's comments because I trust her opinion. She is the only person I know in the UK who has seen a saddlechariot driven, in person. She is very knowledgable about both equines and vehicles. Again opinion of one I trust, you can take it or leave it.

I refer to driving because that is what most folks here on this forum have experience with, access to, knowledge of. Comparisons are unavoidable, because regular carriage driving, working horses both light and heavy, are the basic starting point here in the USA for our knowledge.

"Of your latest comments, if you read my site you would see the section on chariot history from Sumer and Akkad onwards. I understand where the chariot came from and I know where the saddlechariot is going, two very different things.

I emphasise throughout my site that this is not carriage driving, why do you need to remind people of something I spend most of my time saying."

Sorry, very few folks will completely read everything on a site, including myself. Not enough time or interest in those tiny details. Simon may know all the site information inside and out. Forum readers here, probably won't. My reasons are to cover those details a casual reader may not understand, round out a flat opinion. Allows them to get a bigger picture to make a better choice.

Too many folks checking in here for information who don't know much or anything about driving a horse, design of good driving vehicles. I SURE DON'T want them going off to tie a vehicle behind their unbroke or only saddle broke horse, to injure themselves or others. Huge difference in how tiny ponies, large ponies and horses react to things, like rein pull, blinkers or lack of them. I try to make that clear, so they THINK first. I am constantly amazed at how folks will take information from a forum stranger, watch a video, then go off to put it into action!!

I am done with this discussion. My words are getting pretty twisted with each reply. Readers will do as they choose with the information available. My goal is just to make sure they see both sides, understand possible poor consequences of their actions, choices.

[DIYdriver]

Since I started this discussion I feel compelled to post a thought or two on the resulting remarks it has generated. I thanked a few posters for their thoughts earlier in the thread hoping it would come to a close, but it didn't.

Not long ago there was a thread on whether or not posters who were only interested in pleasure or recreational driving were welcome here. There were a great many posts decrying that statement. There were comments that "any" type of driving, no matter what kind of equipment, horse, harness, or driver is involved is welcome to be discussed. There were comments about cobbled together harnesses and "questionable" vehicles having been used somewhere along the line, all with a positive spin. It was the general consensus that we could talk about our driving interests without worrying that someone would get snarky about it................Really????

While I appreciate the "warnings" as to what to take into consideration regarding this vehicle, my interest in it has not been thwarted, if anything, now I want to learn MORE about it. It is not a "traditional" driving vehicle, and those of you who insist upon judging it by those standards are never going to like it, and that's OK. The SC is designed for people like myself that are only interested in driving for recreational purposes, who want to go through the woodsy trails and fields and up and down the many hills surrounding me with the least chance of having a wreck and getting my pony or myself injured.

If I have read one comment about how driving is SO much more dangerous than riding a horse, I have read 1000. But when someone tries to design a driving vehicle to make the recreational aspect of the sport more safe, he gets all kinds of flak about it. I don't get it:confused:. I don't think it is wrong for Simon to endeavor to build a driving vehicle that is safer for the driver as well as the horse in the context in which it is meant to be used. He said himself that he has tweaked it before and probably will continue to do so, as would any inventor that is designing a product that has never been used before.

I, for one, will continue to seek an opportunity to try one out, to study my pony's comfort with it, her reaction to it, to see how comfortable and efficient it is for me to use, and to judge for myself if it is something in which I will invest my money. I find it interesting that other than "the friend" in the UK, the people who have actually used it see it very favorably, while the naysayers have only gotten as close to it as a computer monitor.

Have a great driving day:)

[Simon Saddlechariot Mulholland]

Goodhors, I appreciate you don't like being corrected, but I am afraid further clarification is necessary. You state
Just because someone sees a video showing an equine doing something, doesn't mean VIEWER should try that exact same thing. Viewer don't know how things went to get the pictures or what happened AFTER the camera was off.
True, but it is true of every activity, equestrian or not. The sky is above us. I can make endless statements of the completely obvious which apply to every website but what is the point. A criticism that applies to every website is not terribly useful or relevant.
Secondly I said


I emphasise throughout my site that this is not carriage driving, why do you need to remind people of something I spend most of my time saying."


you reply
Sorry, very few folks will completely read everything on a site, including myself. Not enough time or interest in those tiny details.

The tiny detail that so few people will notice is the SECOND sentence on the entire site. Hardly well concealed small print.

Anonymous sorces are difficult to refute, at least Thomas 1 has the decency to say who he is. It is just a pity he has never seen the saddlechariot which is why he makes the untrue statements he does.

[MIdeafhorserider]

I thought I have seen in draft horse magazine, big saddlecharoit looks little different, both look almost same.

Any saddlecharoit in USA America? :confused:

[Simon Saddlechariot Mulholland]

The Saddlechariot basically fits from 7 to 17hh but I can make it fit bigger or smaller. I've got one on a 17hh Clydesdale and another on a 15.2hh Clydesdale X. And of course at the other end I've fitted a number of Falabellas and miniatures, shetlands, welsh, dartmoor, exmoor, highland, standardbred and the smartest so far, a Gelderlander for the Household Cavalry to play with, but I stuck to Henry when I was teaching them to jump saddlechariots.
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/saddlechariots/Funphotos/photo#5097846571353588930
This is the Clydesdale X with me
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/saddlechariots/Funphotos/photo#5097846605713327314
and with his owner Alison who is a bit shorter.
I am trying to sort out the US end but exporting isn't simple when your fellow countrymen are making damaging and untrue statements on the web. I hope to get over very soon to show you all what the saddlechariot actually is and what it does. Which is to allow you to have serious fun safely.
Simon

[kearleydk]

Simon, You would be welcome at my farm and I would be happy to lend you horses.

The place to go would be Equine Affair. No place else showcases so much stuff equine to such a large crowd IMO.

You can Google Equine affair to learn more.

Importing stuff can be challenging unless your name is Walmart and you are importing from China. My friendly Florida Dept of Revenue tried to make me pay sales tax on a whole container load of carriages because I helped the importer clear customs.
Dick

Dick

[horseyfolks]

Simon, if you decide to visit Florida and stop at Dick's Farm please include myself and my Daughter, Sam, in your plans.

Sam has a number of driving and riding ponies and horses available to you and I would like to offer my services to help Dick organize and put on a number of demonstrations of your vehicle here in Florida. Dick, maybe we could put together a presentation/demonstration of the Chariot in conjunction with a tail gate lunch and trail drive in Goethe Forest.... I also have access to a couple of very nice farms right in Ocala we could use for presentations probably with the full support of STRIDE....

Don

[Simon Saddlechariot Mulholland]

Hey that's really kind and I will take you up on it as soon as I can. Sorry I haven't responded sooner but just had a really relaxing family holiday in Ireland, just outside Dungarvan. Really beautiful and for 10 days i didn't look at a horse, pony donkey or mule, just mucked around on the beautiful beaches all day.
Will pm you both to make some plans.
Again, many thanks
Simon

[kearleydk]

I notice this thread has some 1800 views. Simon, that in itself is something to be proud of. Got a whole bunch of little grey cells popping in a whole bunch of heads.
Dick

[SomethingDazzling]

YEAH.....NO!

[MySparrow]

When I saw this resurrected I came out of the lurkdom for the first time in ... forever. Made me realize how much I miss Don's voice on this forum!

With the economy clamping down, I've not even considered new equipment in over a year. Rescued a couple of horses, but not looking to buy anything except stuff that wears out. It's fun to read about new things, however, and to be reminded of "old things" that I'd forgotten about.

[Cartfall]

Dale, it has has been a long time!!! I too was surprised to see Don and Dick posting--they are too long lost friends. Haven;t seen Ridesahaffie in a good while as well.

I know I lurk more than I post anymore. Not much going on this site for a long time. I prefer driving my horses to much computer times.

Threads that really get the blood popping just don;t seem to come around much anymore.

To keep this in thread--I looked at the site and am not really sure what this thing is-- is it like a Segway or is there an actual saddle attached?

Dale--by the way, how is your fay pony--Luna something? Forgive me, but CRS is so apparent in my life these days!

[MySparrow]

The harness is unusual as well. Though several times I have read that it has no crupper, at least two videos show something that looks like a crupper to me. In one video the horse is wearing what looks like a neoprene sleezy as a collar. Altogether some out-of-the-box thinking.

Fairy Luna is doing very well indeed, working better and better both in the school and as a driving pony. She's very thoughtful and seldom reacts negatively to anything. Thank you for asking!

I wonder where Dick and Karen and Don and everyone have gone?

Dale

[goodhors]

Fairy Luna is doing very well indeed, working better and better both in the school and as a driving pony. She's very thoughtful and seldom reacts negatively to anything. Thank you for asking!

I wonder where Dick and Karen and Don and everyone have gone?

Dale

Glad to hear Fairy Luna is developing well. Funny how fast time flies, she was just a poor, wretched thing you felt sorry for as you rescued her. Now she is a working girl, fun to have around.

I think missing folks have other things keeping them busy. Real life does that sometimes. Last time Don posted, Sammy was aiming for her college in the fall. Had driven very well, but now had to work on other goals. RAH is/was busy with family things. And Dick just kind of quit posting much. Maybe he is finishing his wonderful church/barn or having a lot to do at the Nursery.

Dale, I know you also are busy, perhaps moving again? Kind of a rainy day here, so had extra time to post for me.

Sometimes reading on here, just seems like we have covered all the basics, every way possible. No great new directions to go in, for long and involved threads.

Nice to hear from you Dale. Stop in again.

[Moderator 1]

As this is an old thread that did not have any active discussion on the topic, we're going to close it to further updates. Company representatives are welcome to post on threads pertaining to their products in response to direct questions or statements made, but unsolicited updates cross the line into self-promotion, which violates our no-advertising policy.

We've removed some posts as a result.

Thanks,
Mod 1